Apple M6 rumors/discussion

This is essentially adding an OS coprocessor, like adding the AMX, to each cluster. Would it be workable? Worthwhile in opportunity cost? I have no idea.

The primary implementation of SysCall is the SVC trap instruction, which is primarily an operation internal to the specific PE. If you have a SysCore, it will have to set aside its current task to address the SysCall or otherwise leave the caller suspended while it finishes what it is working on. Similarly, the most common other activation of supervisor mode is page faulting, which can be cumbersome to handle and would leave the faulting PE in suspension until the fault is handled – in real page faults, a large fraction of the work can/should be done in EL3 (Userland).

I mean, isolated SysCores do sound like an appealing design, but whether you do them in a SysCluster or in a, say, 5:1 cluster layout, the work that would normal happen within a PE – exception processing – gets delegated to SysCores, and I am not sure that the security gain would adequately offset the performance cost. I/O and swapping really are mostly EL3 work that is kind of wasted on a dedicated EL2-0 core that otherwise has lots of small exception hits to deal with.

I kind of like the HURD ethos, where SysCalls are basically all asynchronous messaging. That keeps processes better isolated and lets a lot more work take place in Userland where it belongs. Properly implemented, it could support a dedicated SysCore that polls ports and dispatches work appropriately – but you still need EL2-capability across the board for efficient exception handling.
 
Obviously this kind of separation won't fix all disclosure vulns. But protecting the kernel further may still be worthwhile. I'm trying to get a better grip on what the cost of such protection would be. So far all I'm seeing is handwaving. And yes, I can't do any better- that's why I'm asking.
It's difficult to do better without building it and measuring ;)

I'm not saying I'm against the idea. It could be fun to see in practice. I just don't expect this to happen.

A lot of things happen in syscalls, and for I/O I can see ways all of what you say making some sense.
Potentially XPC, memory management too.

I find it a little bit harder to imaging how scheduling and synchronisation plays into it. How would cores be preempted in this model?

Are we imagining a communication lane between the OS core and application core, where the OS core sends the application core an address containing a process descriptor that it's placed in userspace, along with the address of the virtual memory map to load in and then that causes a userspace level context switch without the application core going into a privileged kernel mode?
Would preemption timers ever trigger on the application cores or only on the OS cores that then may choose to preempt application cores with signals?
What if you make a sys call to block until a memory address is altered? How do the cache coherency and effect propagation flow between core types?

I'm not saying it's impossible. It's just very non-trivial and I don't think we'll be going there in the near to mid term future, if ever.
The idea is fascinating and I'd be thrilled to see some practical exploration of it.
 
The primary implementation of SysCall is the SVC trap instruction, which is primarily an operation internal to the specific PE. If you have a SysCore, it will have to set aside its current task to address the SysCall or otherwise leave the caller suspended while it finishes what it is working on. Similarly, the most common other activation of supervisor mode is page faulting, which can be cumbersome to handle and would leave the faulting PE in suspension until the fault is handled – in real page faults, a large fraction of the work can/should be done in EL3 (Userland).

I mean, isolated SysCores do sound like an appealing design, but whether you do them in a SysCluster or in a, say, 5:1 cluster layout, the work that would normal happen within a PE – exception processing – gets delegated to SysCores, and I am not sure that the security gain would adequately offset the performance cost. I/O and swapping really are mostly EL3 work that is kind of wasted on a dedicated EL2-0 core that otherwise has lots of small exception hits to deal with.

I kind of like the HURD ethos, where SysCalls are basically all asynchronous messaging. That keeps processes better isolated and lets a lot more work take place in Userland where it belongs. Properly implemented, it could support a dedicated SysCore that polls ports and dispatches work appropriately – but you still need EL2-capability across the board for efficient exception handling.
This is also a good point; Either we need to fundamentally rearchitect things such that userspace applications expect svc to (almost immediately) return and not actually have performed the work yet, but come back later with a signal handler event or something, or we need something akin to hyper threading where each application core has two userspace processes it is ready to run at any given time, switching to the other whenever it is blocked waiting on the OS core. - Either approach adds new complexity
 
That's exactly what I'm wondering about. It sure looks like a lot of the work they've done over the last few years could help reduce or eliminate the prohibitive cost of syscalls across clusters. But is it enough? I have no idea. You specifically call out page table management. It really didn't occur to me that that would be such a heavy burden compared to the I/O. Is that well understood to be a major component of OS performance? Googling around just a little, I find (with low confidence!) an estimate of 1-5% of the OS' time is spent in that part of the kernel, for Linux, on "normal" workloads. But some workloads with lots of contention may increase that significantly.
Consider, though, that if you take a large performance hit on wrangling page table entries because now there's IPC to a remote core involved, that 1-5% could become a much bigger fraction. And in general operating systems are a domain where certain things get optimized to the hilt even if they end up being a relatively small fraction of runtime, just because you need the OS to do its thing super fast and get out of the way so the application can do real work with the CPU.

Also, Darwin isn't Linux, and may well lean more heavily on PTE manipulation. Mach IPC is everywhere in Apple's tech stack, and iirc Mach IPC makes extensive use of VM/shared-memory tricks to minimize copying. That probably puts a lot more pressure on PTE manipulation than Linux.

(editing to add: if Apple wanted to change things so that manipulating the page table absolutely required messaging a different core, I think they'd need to change a lot about Mach messages, or add a new lower level IPC primitive that doesn't depend on the core sending a message sometimes needing to edit the PT.)

So just how bad would this be?
I'm afraid I'm in no position to do anything better than handwave, myself!

I also wonder if, knowing you had real hw separation between the OS and user code, if you could safely eliminate some code that you currently need to protect the OS, and if that might make up any of the expense of doing separate clusters.
I just have doubts about whether it's possible to achieve that level of separation without hurting performance a lot by doing so. But once again, hard for me to do anything but handwave here.
 
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Keep it up guys - I have no idea what you are talking about, but it certainly raises the level of discourse and relevance of this "Techboard"!
;)
 
It would be almost trivial to put in a context switch function wherein SysCore could write to AppCoren-specific SPSRs to cause AppCoren to perform a thread switch, perhaps even while the pipeline for out-process is still flushing out. The frames would be located outside of userspace and AppCoren would be working from pre-translated addresses (a context frame is something on the order of 800 bytes for standard 128bit Neon but could be larger if the core is using SVE2 and/or SME).

This could serve for both thread/task switching and also some degree of exception handling, meaning the SysCore would not be doing much more than just managing user process operation and so might not even need FP capability (or greatly reduced).
 
It would be almost trivial to put in a context switch function wherein SysCore could write to AppCoren-specific SPSRs to cause AppCoren to perform a thread switch, perhaps even while the pipeline for out-process is still flushing out. The frames would be located outside of userspace and AppCoren would be working from pre-translated addresses (a context frame is something on the order of 800 bytes for standard 128bit Neon but could be larger if the core is using SVE2 and/or SME).

This could serve for both thread/task switching and also some degree of exception handling, meaning the SysCore would not be doing much more than just managing user process operation and so might not even need FP capability (or greatly reduced).
I owe more replies, sorry, will get to them eventually. In the meantime, for this: Yes, that's the idea. When the OS core hits the user core with a task switch message, it includes enough info to specify what registers to save, where to save them, what to load and from where, and a new execution address. The core can act on all that directly. Not clear to me how much privileged code would have to ever run on the user cores. Possibly even none, though I'm not sure you could make the separation *that* strong. And I'm more thinking about segregating information; not having any code running EL1+ is less the point. (Edit: Actually, so far I can't think of a reason you'd have to have any code run non-EL0.)

I think you really could get away with no FP at all on the OS core. Only Apple could ever write code to run there (or possibly a few very trusted vendors might get to write driver backends that strictly conform to Apple's reqs). So they should be able to easily avoid any FP code. If there's some crazy corner case I haven't though of that wants FP, do it with fixed point instead.
 
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The primary implementation of SysCall is the SVC trap instruction, which is primarily an operation internal to the specific PE. If you have a SysCore, it will have to set aside its current task to address the SysCall or otherwise leave the caller suspended while it finishes what it is working on. Similarly, the most common other activation of supervisor mode is page faulting, which can be cumbersome to handle and would leave the faulting PE in suspension until the fault is handled – in real page faults, a large fraction of the work can/should be done in EL3 (Userland).

I mean, isolated SysCores do sound like an appealing design, but whether you do them in a SysCluster or in a, say, 5:1 cluster layout, the work that would normal happen within a PE – exception processing – gets delegated to SysCores, and I am not sure that the security gain would adequately offset the performance cost. I/O and swapping really are mostly EL3 work that is kind of wasted on a dedicated EL2-0 core that otherwise has lots of small exception hits to deal with.

I kind of like the HURD ethos, where SysCalls are basically all asynchronous messaging. That keeps processes better isolated and lets a lot more work take place in Userland where it belongs. Properly implemented, it could support a dedicated SysCore that polls ports and dispatches work appropriately – but you still need EL2-capability across the board for efficient exception handling.
All your cited levels are reversed. EL3 isn't Userland... you mean EL0.

I think that if Apple were to do this, over time more and more OS calls would move to asynchronous, because it would basically be free performance in some cases and a wash in others. This would play well with moving high bandwidth/volume IO to polling. And we're well into the inevitable shift to async everywhere anyway, I think, which will be further accelerated by AI coding.

But I don't think this is dependent on that. I think that at baseline, calls that are expected to return fast leave the process suspended to the few hundreds of ns it would take for the round-trip to the OS core. Anything expected to take longer gets a context switch... which is a lot like it is now. This is where performance may be degraded, though hopefully it gets made up at least in part by other benefits elsewhere.

One thing I'm very unclear on: If you have one OS core per cluster, you're effectively serializing OS calls at that level. BUT with split drivers that may be OK as long operations can execute in userspace on user cores. If you have a separate OS cluster, well, Apple probably has enough telemetry to tell it how many cores you'd need for that design to avoid frequent OS cluster stalls.
 
I find it a little bit harder to imaging how scheduling and synchronisation plays into it. How would cores be preempted in this model?

Are we imagining a communication lane between the OS core and application core, where the OS core sends the application core an address containing a process descriptor that it's placed in userspace, along with the address of the virtual memory map to load in and then that causes a userspace level context switch without the application core going into a privileged kernel mode?
Would preemption timers ever trigger on the application cores or only on the OS cores that then may choose to preempt application cores with signals?
What if you make a sys call to block until a memory address is altered? How do the cache coherency and effect propagation flow between core types?
I am far from qualified to make this call, but I imagined that you'd modify user cores (and maybe the NoC a little) to allow signals from the OS cores to cause various things to happen on the user cores, like preemptive context switches (as I wrote above). So, yes, it switches contexts without ever leaving EL0. In fact by design no other EL ever exists on user cores. I am NOT sure how well this plays with a hypervisor, but I think it works exactly the same way.

About interrupts: Almost everything is async. I'm not qualified to say this with certainty, but I think with only user code running on the user cores, you never have interrupt preemption; they can always be serviced immediately. Anything that requires locks or syncs should be able to get by with atomics, and the interrupt allows for completion of that instruction first, so there's no notion of restarts. (Well, except cache-missing loads. But you need rollback capability for those anyway, so that won't cost you much if anything.) You'll also only have IPIs for async interrupts; anything else goes to the OS cores in the first place.

As for other interrupts, well, you have code faults (illegal instructions, etc.), page faults, and traps. All are handled by messaging to the OS cores. Timers are polled or IPIs from the OS cores. And I think that's pretty much everything.

As for your last question (about futexes, I imagine), I'm well outside my comfort zone as I've never done asm hacking on ARM CPUs. However, doing some quick reading... I think the existing primitives play perfectly with this design. Use WFE/WFET (the latter would probably be a little different under this regime, but whatever). When the address changes, the writer will generate an invalidation; your snoop hardware and exclusion monitor will handle everything, much as they do in current designs.

So in short, nothing changes, if the core is simply sleeping until the futex change wakes it. Of course if the thread is preempted, then that logic controls.
 
I am far from qualified to make this call, but I imagined that you'd modify user cores (and maybe the NoC a little) to allow signals from the OS cores to cause various things to happen on the user cores, like preemptive context switches (as I wrote above). So, yes, it switches contexts without ever leaving EL0. In fact by design no other EL ever exists on user cores. I am NOT sure how well this plays with a hypervisor, but I think it works exactly the same way.

About interrupts: Almost everything is async. I'm not qualified to say this with certainty, but I think with only user code running on the user cores, you never have interrupt preemption; they can always be serviced immediately. Anything that requires locks or syncs should be able to get by with atomics, and the interrupt allows for completion of that instruction first, so there's no notion of restarts. (Well, except cache-missing loads. But you need rollback capability for those anyway, so that won't cost you much if anything.) You'll also only have IPIs for async interrupts; anything else goes to the OS cores in the first place.

As for other interrupts, well, you have code faults (illegal instructions, etc.), page faults, and traps. All are handled by messaging to the OS cores. Timers are polled or IPIs from the OS cores. And I think that's pretty much everything.

As for your last question (about futexes, I imagine), I'm well outside my comfort zone as I've never done asm hacking on ARM CPUs. However, doing some quick reading... I think the existing primitives play perfectly with this design. Use WFE/WFET (the latter would probably be a little different under this regime, but whatever). When the address changes, the writer will generate an invalidation; your snoop hardware and exclusion monitor will handle everything, much as they do in current designs.

So in short, nothing changes, if the core is simply sleeping until the futex change wakes it. Of course if the thread is preempted, then that logic controls.
I’m even less qualified to comment, but I find this thread fascinating. Never having come across the word futex before, I decided to look it up. Here’s what Wikipedia has to say:

In computing, a futex (short for "fast userspace mutex") is a kernel system callthat programmers can use to implement basic locking, or as a building block for higher-level locking abstractions such as semaphores and POSIX mutexes or condition variables.

Can’t say that helped much, unfortunately.

Futex would be a good term for the part of the cortex where futile behavior originates, had it not already been appropriated.
 
I’m even less qualified to comment, but I find this thread fascinating. Never having come across the word futex before, I decided to look it up. Here’s what Wikipedia has to say:

In computing, a futex (short for "fast userspace mutex") is a kernel system callthat programmers can use to implement basic locking, or as a building block for higher-level locking abstractions such as semaphores and POSIX mutexes or condition variables.

Can’t say that helped much, unfortunately.

Futex would be a good term for the part of the cortex where futile behavior originates, had it not already been appropriated.
If you have many processes running at once, and they depend on each other in some way (for example, process A needs the result of process B before it can proceed to its own next step), you need some way to synchronize them. These sorts of mutex mechanisms are a way for one process to tell another “I’m not done yet, so wait before you use my results,” for example.
 
I’m even less qualified to comment, but I find this thread fascinating. Never having come across the word futex before, I decided to look it up. Here’s what Wikipedia has to say:

In computing, a futex (short for "fast userspace mutex") is a kernel system callthat programmers can use to implement basic locking, or as a building block for higher-level locking abstractions such as semaphores and POSIX mutexes or condition variables.

Can’t say that helped much, unfortunately.

Futex would be a good term for the part of the cortex where futile behavior originates, had it not already been appropriated.

A central problem in concurrent programming is synchronizing resource access - figuring out whether some other thread/core finished doing some part of the work and whether it’s safe to continue with the next one. Programmers rely on a set of common tools to implement such behaviors. A tradition challenge with standard synchronization primitives is that they could be quite expensive - for example, requiring a trip to the kernel to check if a resource is being in use by someone else. Futex is an elegant newer solution that relies much cheaper memory operations modern CPU support, and only needs the expensive kernel call in rare circumstances.
 
I am far from qualified to make this call, but I imagined that you'd modify user cores (and maybe the NoC a little) to allow signals from the OS cores to cause various things to happen on the user cores, like preemptive context switches (as I wrote above). So, yes, it switches contexts without ever leaving EL0. In fact by design no other EL ever exists on user cores. I am NOT sure how well this plays with a hypervisor, but I think it works exactly the same way.

About interrupts: Almost everything is async. I'm not qualified to say this with certainty, but I think with only user code running on the user cores, you never have interrupt preemption; they can always be serviced immediately. Anything that requires locks or syncs should be able to get by with atomics, and the interrupt allows for completion of that instruction first, so there's no notion of restarts. (Well, except cache-missing loads. But you need rollback capability for those anyway, so that won't cost you much if anything.) You'll also only have IPIs for async interrupts; anything else goes to the OS cores in the first place.

As for other interrupts, well, you have code faults (illegal instructions, etc.), page faults, and traps. All are handled by messaging to the OS cores. Timers are polled or IPIs from the OS cores. And I think that's pretty much everything.

As for your last question (about futexes, I imagine), I'm well outside my comfort zone as I've never done asm hacking on ARM CPUs. However, doing some quick reading... I think the existing primitives play perfectly with this design. Use WFE/WFET (the latter would probably be a little different under this regime, but whatever). When the address changes, the writer will generate an invalidation; your snoop hardware and exclusion monitor will handle everything, much as they do in current designs.

So in short, nothing changes, if the core is simply sleeping until the futex change wakes it. Of course if the thread is preempted, then that logic controls.
All good points. I think I’m convinced the design could be functional although I won’t feel entirely confident until someone builds it :D also not certain on performance consequences in practice. I can think of arguments both for why it might be fast and why it might be slow and not sure which would weigh the strongest.
 
Thanks, all, for helping me to understand what a futex is. I did get the broad concept, but this certainly helped.

Not quite the same, I know, but back when I was writing a program that let several users of a time-sharing system communicate by text in realtime, I used a method to prevent more than one person from accessing a key storage resource simultaneously. (This was almost 50 years ago.)

We didn’t call it email, but that was essentially what it was.
 
Thanks, all, for helping me to understand what a futex is. I did get the broad concept, but this certainly helped.

Not quite the same, I know, but back when I was writing a program that let several users of a time-sharing system communicate by text in realtime, I used a method to prevent more than one person from accessing a key storage resource simultaneously. (This was almost 50 years ago.)

We didn’t call it email, but that was essentially what it was.

I think that’s exactly the same! The rest is implementation details ::)
 
Regarding dedicated OS cores — I can certainly see a dedicated low-latency ordered control queue to facilitate inter-core syscalls, that should be fairly cheap to implement given the presumably low bandwidth requirements. What I do wonder about are three things:

- Cost of cache synchronization between dedicated OS cores and client cores (sounds expensive!)
- What actually happens on the client core when a syscall is emitted — since the execution is asynchronous, the thread either needs to wait or relinquish control until the syscall is processed. For this to be efficient, one needs some sort of scheduling apparatus running on the core itself
- How are memory page faults handled? Are they trapped on the client core and forwarded to the OS core via the syscall queue?

Intuitively, I'd say that it could be quite hard to balance (how much resources do the OS cores need to process the syscall queue, and what happens in edge cases?), dealing with caches might be a problem, and will introduce a whole new level of complexity in handling context switches and exceptions. There are certainly cases where asynchronous handling of requests is preferable, and we already have dedicated hardware (e.g. DMA transfers) doing that.

BTW, if I remember correctly, Apple was already using some semi-custom stuff to handle certain traps without incurring a context switch. Asahi people described a special execution mode that hides client registers and allows the OS code to execute in a shadow space. To me this kind of solution (dedicated register/cache spaces for OS code rather than dedicated cores) sounds preferable as it avoids the headache of synchronization and can't be beat in terms of latency.
 
doing some quick reading... I think the existing primitives play perfectly with this design. Use WFE/WFET

Do some non-cursory reading on the event mechanism. It is brutally confusing exactly how it works.
  • Each PE has an Event Register (flag, really, as it is 1 bit)
  • there are no explicit instructions that affect this register (except SEVL, which sets the event flag for the PE executing the instruction)
  • it is reset by a context change (exception), but, once set, it remains set for the active run
  • SEV is a broadcast (any core that sends an event sends it to all other cores)
  • load exclusive (entering the exclusive state) is not defined as clearing the event flag (logically, it should)
  • store exclusive "registers an event" when it succeeds but not when it fails (it is not clear whether this means the registered event is broadcast)
  • CLREX "registers an event"

I believe this makes sense, somehow, but it is difficult to discern how to use it efficiently.

If two PE grab the same semaphore, the first one to write to it may generate an event, while the second one fails, but it is not clear whether it sees the event "registered" when the winning PE did the exclusive store. Moreover, if there was some random SEV earlier in the run (possibly pertaining to a different semaphore), the PE that does WFE will be reacting to that earlier event – there is no way for a PE to discern what event it is waking for.

It looks like a poorly documented feature. The processor can be configured to respond to WFE with an exception, which seems most sensible, as so much of the behavior in this area is implementation defined.

I like the idea of queued job dispatch (e.g., GCD), as it makes sense for multi-core optimization and can be constructed with job packet dependencies that reduce the need for semaphore syncing.
 
Regarding dedicated OS cores — I can certainly see a dedicated low-latency ordered control queue to facilitate inter-core syscalls, that should be fairly cheap to implement given the presumably low bandwidth requirements. What I do wonder about are three things:

- Cost of cache synchronization between dedicated OS cores and client cores (sounds expensive!)
I think this mostly doesn't need to happen... though I'm waving my hands quite furiously here. The theory is that most data-heavy calls talk to the OS core for control but it in turn passes pointers to a userspace process which is running back on the same user CPU for actual data movement. Thus my reference to a split driver and zero-copy. My vague idea was to have the NoC have design support for syscalls, such that a limited amount of arguments can be passed directly over the NoC rather than being referred to as memory addresses which are in the cache. It seems that this exists already, give or take (inter-core fifos for registers).

Hm. Thinking about this more... I just realized something significant. This model means that ONLY the OS cluster is writing the TLB! That means that all invalidations are generated only on that cluster, and can be pushed cheaply to all other clusters. This drastically simplifies cache design, and reduces latency.

So in fact I think this design would find cache sync much cheaper than typical designs.

Also, this changes my earlier response. I think it's enough of a benefit that the 1-OS-core-per-cluster alternative is completely outclassed, and probably not worth considering.

- What actually happens on the client core when a syscall is emitted — since the execution is asynchronous, the thread either needs to wait or relinquish control until the syscall is processed. For this to be efficient, one needs some sort of scheduling apparatus running on the core itself
First sentence, exactly right. Second, I don't think so. Perhaps every syscall is in fact a sleep instruction that indicates "wait for a message from the OS core with a new address to start executing from" (I mentioned this earlier; it would also specify which register types would be restored, and from where). Sometimes, the response from the OS means "resume now without context switch" and it does instead of yielding. And of course some (probably more and more over time, if this idea is successful) return immediately without sleeping, as they're totally async. This is entirely implemented in hw, there's no OS overseeing it.

- How are memory page faults handled? Are they trapped on the client core and forwarded to the OS core via the syscall queue?
For a TLB miss, that's the potential performance problem, going across the NoC to the OS Cores. But... why would you have to do that? The HW page walker exists in every core. Let it do its thing, and return, while holding the thread suspended (or not even, as it can execute out of order).

For a real fault, the latency between clusters, on the order of 100ns, will be entirely hidden by the latency to disk which is more than two orders of magnitude larger. (Or, for a minor fault, by the latency of the page copy/zero-fill/whatever.)

Intuitively, I'd say that it could be quite hard to balance (how much resources do the OS cores need to process the syscall queue, and what happens in edge cases?), dealing with caches might be a problem, and will introduce a whole new level of complexity in handling context switches and exceptions. There are certainly cases where asynchronous handling of requests is preferable, and we already have dedicated hardware (e.g. DMA transfers) doing that.
Yes, balance seems like a question you can only answer with massive telemetry. Fortunately, Apple should have that, so they can probably know how many cores you'd need for this to work well (and thus whether it would be cost-effective). However there's some literature saying 5-10% of compute resources are typically sufficient, assuming all the heavy driver lifting is done in userspace. On the high end of that, or maybe a little bit more, for some IO-heavy tasks like RDBMSes. That would make 2 cores plenty for even the M5 max.

I suspect but can't prove (or even argue in detail) that you'd win more than you lose on caching, context switches, and exceptions. As the world goes more and more multiprocessor, code gets more and more multiprocessing-based and more and more async, which I think would work well with this sort of CPU.

BTW, if I remember correctly, Apple was already using some semi-custom stuff to handle certain traps without incurring a context switch. Asahi people described a special execution mode that hides client registers and allows the OS code to execute in a shadow space. To me this kind of solution (dedicated register/cache spaces for OS code rather than dedicated cores) sounds preferable as it avoids the headache of synchronization and can't be beat in terms of latency.
Assuming I know what you're talking about (User Mode Interrupts, and hw thread switching, for drivers to execute, not the OS itself), that is extensively used in this design, exactly as it is now. It's important for this design because it means user code can talk directly to the driver without the OS intermediating, so you don't have those long-latency syscalls every time you read or write.

This was actually one of the things that got me wondering if Apple might be headed in this direction, because no-copy no-kernel drivers are foundational if you're going to do it.
 
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