Kuo: foldable iPad in 2024

[Cmaier]

20”, with carbon fiber kickstand.

I wonder if it will be bendable, or just foldable (ie one screen or two)

https://twitter.com/mingchikuo/status/1619952793359650816

 

[Citysnaps]

Hmmmm. I dunno.

No doubt in my mind Apple has a dozen or two engineering prototypes of various foldable/bendable/dancing iPads in their labs.

Will they stand up to longterm daily use and abuse without compromise, and find public acceptance? Who knows. I haven't been craving one, though I'm always open to new ideas.

 

[Herdfan]

Will they stand up to longterm daily use and abuse without compromise, and find public acceptance? Who knows. I haven't been craving one, though I'm always open to new ideas.

That's the million $ question. I have played with the Android/Sansung version at BB and on those demos you can tell where the fold is. You can see it for sure and I wonder over time if you will be able to feel it as well.

 

[Citysnaps]

That's the million $ question. I have played with the Android/Sansung version at BB and on those demos you can tell where the fold is. You can see it for sure and I wonder over time if you will be able to feel it as well.

Yeah. That would be a deal-killer right out of the gate. Can't see Apple letting that happen as an acceptable consequence.

 

[theorist9]

A poster at MR suggested this might be a testbed for a foldable iPhone. Does that make sense? Would it be easier to make a foldable iPad and/or would the iPad need less durability (less open-close cycles per day)?

 

[Cmaier]

A poster at MR suggested this might be a testbed for a foldable iPhone. Does that make sense? Would it be easier to make a foldable iPad and/or would the iPad need less durability (less open-close cycles per day)?

seems to me that a foldable iPad solves a problem, but a foldable phone does not. Who wants a double-thick device that is supposed to go in your pocket?

 

[Yoused]

Samsung had a foldable phone some recent while back, as I recall. The genius of it was that the fold ran the length of the screen, turning a slab into a stick.

 

[theorist9]

seems to me that a foldable iPad solves a problem, but a foldable phone does not. Who wants a double-thick device that is supposed to go in your pocket?

Well, that's a different question from the one I raised. As to yours, a foldable phone absolutely solves a problem, if they use use the folding feature to make exising phones smaller, rather than to offer larger phones (which they've not done thus far) (e.g., the Galaxy Z Flip 4).

Specifically: My wallet is 115 mm x 85 mm x 20 mm, and comfortably fits in my front pocket. An iPhone 14 Pro, and certainly a Pro Max, like most smart phones, is too long to do so comfortably (especially when you're sitting down). However, folding an iPhone 14 Pro Max in half makes it 80+ mm x 78 mm x 16+ mm—even more compact. And if we folded an iPhone 14, that would be even better: 74+ mm x 72 mm x 16+ mm. [I added a plus to the long dimension to allow for the hinge, and to the thickness b/c I don't know if it can be made to fold perfectly flat.]

I personally think having a smartphone that you can comfortably carry in your front pocket is a BFD.

 

[Cmaier]

Well, that's a different question from the one I raised. As to yours, a foldable phone absolutely solves a problem, if they use use the folding feature to make exising phones smaller, rather than to offer larger phones (which they've not done thus far).

Specifically: My wallet is 115 mm x 85 mm x 20 mm, and comfortably fits in my front pocket. An iPhone 14 Pro, and certainly a Pro Max, like most smart phones, is too long to do so comfortably (especially when you're sitting down). However, folding an iPhone 14 Pro Max in half makes it 80+ mm x 78 mm x 16+ mm—even more compact. And if we folded an iPhone 14, that would be even better: 74+ mm x 72 mm x 16+ mm. [I added a plus to the long dimension to allow for the hinge, and to the thickness b/c I don't know if it can be made to fold perfectly flat.]

I personally think having a smartphone that you can comfortably carry in your front pocket is a BFD.

I just don’t see how you don’t end up essentially twice as thick. Battery has to go somewhere, and you need volume to cool the chips.

 

[theorist9]

I just don’t see how you don’t end up essentially twice as thick. Battery has to go somewhere, and you need volume to cool the chips.

Sure, but the 16+ mm figure I gave already accounts for the doubling of thickness, since the iPhone Pro's are 7.85 mm. And, as I mentioned, that's still thinner than my ~20 mm thick wallet, as well as having a smaller L & W.

And I was wrong when I said they're not turning smaller smart phones into foldables—I forgot about the Samsung Galaxy Z Flip 4:

It's apparently even small enough to fit into women's front pockets, which are typically smaller than those on men's pants (this thread is for last year's Z Flip 3, which is slightly larger — same thickness, but 72.2 mm x 86.4 mm):

 

[Yoused]

In looking at theorist9's graphic, it occurs to me that there could be an additional advantage to be had, depending on the design implementation: the camera could go into the top (or bottom edge), eliminating the camera bump while also putting paid to all those goddam 9x16 videos. (A lens does not actually have to be a big circle, and longer focal length tends to provide better quality – embedded lengthwise could offer longer focal length without the bump.)

 

[theorist9]

In looking at theorist9's graphic, it occurs to me that there could be an additional advantage to be had, depending on the design implementation: the camera could go into the top (or bottom edge), eliminating the camera bump while also putting paid to all those goddam 9x16 videos. (A lens does not actually have to be a big circle, and longer focal length tends to provide better quality – embedded lengthwise could offer longer focal length without the bump.)

Not quite following--are you saying to embed the lens into the edge of the device? That would require a tiny lens and sensor. The small lens would limit light-gathering, and the small sensor would limit PQ. But not sure if you meant that, since it could be done with a slab phone as well.

Alternately, here's something a hinged design would allow: Given how short the phone's longest open dimension ends up being after it's folded, you could devote an additonal ~ 1 cm wide band at the top of the phone to non-screen real estate, and put the camera there (you could put the lenses in a row). This would add only ~5 mm in folded length. With the elimination of the display in this region, the camera assembly could now go front-to-back, which would reduce or eliminate the camera bump (something you'd probably want to do anyways to offset the added thickness). I.e., with a foldable phone, it makes sense to add some length along the dimension to be folded in order to reduce some thickness. This would also eliminate the notch and/or punch. And since the camera lenses would take up only a portion of the display-free band, you could even bring back an audio jack and home button .

I.e., as pictured on the right, below. In both cases the fold would be at half-length, so in the latter case the fold would not be in the middle of the display.

 

[Yoused]

Not quite following--are you saying to embed the lens into the edge of the device? That would require a tiny lens and sensor. The small lens would limit light-gathering, and the small sensor would limit PQ.

It is what I meant. CCDs are very small, and unlike film, you could easily design them to function well in an orientation that is not orthogonal to the light stream (that is, at at angle), which would provide comparable picture quality while also mitigating the reduced light concern.

But I would only consider that arrangement for a phone. For a tablet, I think the (sole) camera should lie in a trough on the side, with a mirror on the end to allow Q&D facetime, but for taking pictures (or lengthy FT calls) you lift it out on its tiny gooseneck and aim the camera instead of trying to aim the whole tablet.

 

[Cmaier]

Looks like it may actually be a Mac?

Rumors: Foldable iPad in 2024 dismissed, Apple developing 21-inch 'foldable notebook'

While Ming-Chi Kuo reported on Monday that a foldable iPad with a built-in kickstand could launch in 2024, that may...

9to5mac.com

This would make more sense, but probably only for my particular use case. This is my setup:



Replacing the 16” MBP with a 21” monitor would work fine, because I seldom use the machine’s own keyboard. When I do use the keyboard at home, it tends not to be for long typing sessions - honestly I vnc into it more often than I open it up and type on it. And if they come out with some sort of “folio keyboard” type contraption for it, that would be more than enough for me.

 

[Yoused]

And if they come out with some sort of “folio keyboard” type contraption for it, that would be more than enough for me.

Imagine if they put all the works in proper balance behind the screen and supplied a detachable keyboard with a wide tab that holds the keyboard and flips out underneath when you pull the keyboard down. The tab would extend back horizontally to give the screen a resting surface on your lap (or desk, with or without the keyboard). It would be the Surface, only done right (a horizontal brace rather than a vertical one).

 

[theorist9]

It is what I meant. CCDs are very small, and unlike film, you could easily design them to function well in an orientation that is not orthogonal to the light stream (that is, at at angle), which would provide comparable picture quality while also mitigating the reduced light concern.

But I would only consider that arrangement for a phone. For a tablet, I think the (sole) camera should lie in a trough on the side, with a mirror on the end to allow Q&D facetime, but for taking pictures (or lengthy FT calls) you lift it out on its tiny gooseneck and aim the camera instead of trying to aim the whole tablet.

1) Interesting. Can you cite any examples of non-orthogonal CCD's? And what's the angle limit? It it enough to allow the sensor for the iPhone 14's main camera be angled sideways within the case? Samsung uses something similar to what you describe to get a long focal length—a periscope camera*— but that's with an orthogonal sensor. And that obviously wouldn't work for wide-angle cameras, which need the sensor to be close to the lens.

*See Ziv Attar, https://www.glass-imaging.com/smartphone_camera_design_basics.html "

2) There's only so much you can do to mitigate the reduced light from a small lens. You also lose the bokeh. That's why phone manufacturers are using bigger ones. For instance the iPhone 13's main camera is f/1.5.

 

[theorist9]

Looks like it may actually be a Mac?

Rumors: Foldable iPad in 2024 dismissed, Apple developing 21-inch 'foldable notebook'

While Ming-Chi Kuo reported on Monday that a foldable iPad with a built-in kickstand could launch in 2024, that may...

9to5mac.com

It's amusing to think that a 21" foldable laptop is essentially a portable small iMac (older model).

 

[Andropov]

*See Ziv Attar, https://www.glass-imaging.com/smartphone_camera_design_basics.html "

Since the telephoto camera on iPhones is not folded, the phone's thickness limits the physical length of the lens, and the only way to give a lens a long focal length while keeping it short is by using a small sensor.

That's generally true, because most lens designs are refraction-based, but you can mix lenses with mirrors to create very compact optical designs with long focal lengths. See for example, Nikon's Nikkor 500m f/8 reflex lens. Simple reflex lens designs typically have small aperture sizes though, so probably not suitable for phones as-is. Bokeh is also donut-shaped on those lenses, but that's not a phone since on a phone the lenses have a very long depth of field. Also the aperture is often fixed, but that's not a problem because cameras in phones have fixed aperture sizes anyway.

Since no one has brought reflex lenses back, I guess they're not practical on phones either, but I wouldn't say that keeping telephoto lenses small is outright impossible.

 

[theorist9]

That's generally true, because most lens designs are refraction-based, but you can mix lenses with mirrors to create very compact optical designs with long focal lengths. See for example, Nikon's Nikkor 500m f/8 reflex lens. Simple reflex lens designs typically have small aperture sizes though, so probably not suitable for phones as-is. Bokeh is also donut-shaped on those lenses, but that's not a phone since on a phone the lenses have a very long depth of field. Also the aperture is often fixed, but that's not a problem because cameras in phones have fixed aperture sizes anyway.

Since no one has brought reflex lenses back, I guess they're not practical on phones either, but I wouldn't say that keeping telephoto lenses small is outright impossible.

You might find this interesting:

Double-folded catadioptric lens for smartphone portraiture photography

Smartphones are increasingly utilising a dual-camera setup, introducing the possible use of one or more specialised camera modules. The current work presents a smartphone camera designed for portraiture. In portraiture, it is desirable to have a natural Bokeh effect, resulting from shallow depth...

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