Is Apple’s hubris alienating developers?

[Jimmyjames]

I had a long introduction to the topic and then I saw this podcast description from the ATP podcast, and it describes my concern so I’ll quote it here.

"Apple continues to release great products while needlessly antagonizing just about everyone."

Just recently I read that DHH has supposedly abandoned using iOS and macOS personally. He’s a moron in many ways, but is an example of someone who used and promoted Apple’s platforms for a long time.

Will someone save the company from certain aspects of its leadership?

Specifically, I see many devs getting really angry with App Store rules, documentation, and Xcode quality. It’s probably ok while the iPhone remains very popular, but if something slips, what will be left?

 

[Citysnaps]

What needs to be saved?

 

[Jimmyjames]

What needs to be saved?

The companies relationship with developers. I’ll make it clearer.

 

[dada_dave]

I had a long introduction to the topic and then I saw this podcast description from the ATP podcast, and it describes my concern so I’ll quote it here.

"Apple continues to release great products while needlessly antagonizing just about everyone."

Just recently I read that DHH has supposedly abandoned using iOS and macOS personally. He’s a moron in many ways, but is an example of someone who used and promoted Apple’s platforms for a long time.

Truthfully he’s not just a moron but an asshole. Alienating him means you’re probably doing something right. Yeah, yeah okay not necessarily, but still those App Alliance creeps are just the worst. They’re also the most vocal which I think skews the conversation.

Will someone save the company from certain aspects of its leadership?

Specifically, I see many devs getting really angry with App Store rules, documentation, and Xcode quality. It’s probably ok while the iPhone remains very popular, but if something slips, what will be left?

Mostly serious: the DMA (or parts of it anyway) acts as release valve. It’s going to take awhile for everything to shake out, but it has the potential to offer a compromise.

However there’s another thing to keep in mind. Bjarne’s quote about programming languages from @leman’s link about microarchitectures: “there are two kinds of programming languages in the world, those that everybody complains about, and those that nobody uses.” I’m not suggesting there aren’t improvements to be made. But it’s something to keep in mind. Everyone is always going to want more and be frustrated and there’s always going to be tension between the parties who have even partially diverged interests.

 

[Jimmyjames]

Truthfully he’s not just a moron but an asshole. Alienating him means you’re probably doing something right. Yeah, yeah okay not necessarily, but still those App Alliance creeps are just the worst. They’re also the most vocal which I think skews the conversation.

Agree absolutely. From everything I have seen of him, he seems to be entirely self serving, with no foundational principles other than “DHH good”.

Mostly serious: the DMA (or parts of it anyway) acts as release valve. It’s going to take awhile for everything to shake out, but it has the potential to offer a compromise.

However there’s another thing to keep in mind. Bjarne’s quote about programming languages from @leman’s link about microarchitectures: “there are two kinds of programming languages in the world, those that everybody complains about, and those that nobody uses.” I’m not suggesting there aren’t improvements to be made. But it’s something to keep in mind. Everyone is always going to want more and be frustrated and there’s always going to be tension between the parties who have even partially diverged interests.

Good points.

 

[Cmaier]

Developers will keep developing for apple’s products, because that’s where the customers who actually spend money are. Customers don’t spend money on android devices. The reasons for all this are exactly because apple does all these things which piss off developers but make customers feel safe to spend their money.

 

[mr_roboto]

Developers will keep developing for apple’s products, because that’s where the customers who actually spend money are. Customers don’t spend money on android devices. The reasons for all this are exactly because apple does all these things which piss off developers but make customers feel safe to spend their money.

Agreed but I think there's plenty of room for developers to legitimately criticize Apple - not all of their moves actually benefit the customer while pissing off devs as a side effect. Sometimes they do things which help nobody.

 

[quarkysg]

I guess nobody’s perfect?

Apple has traditionally been held to a higher standards compared to other companies, likely because it doesn’t compete with others in a race to the bottom.

My take is that in the past developer frustrations are largely not heard. Nowadays there’re so many avenue to get oneself heard that it makes the situation more dramatic than it actually is. Maybe also nowadays people complain more.

At the end of the day, developers are smart. They follow the money.

 

[amonduin]

I guess nobody’s perfect?

Apple has traditionally been held to a higher standards compared to other companies, likely because it doesn’t compete with others in a race to the bottom.

My take is that in the past developer frustrations are largely not heard. Nowadays there’re so many avenue to get oneself heard that it makes the situation more dramatic than it actually is. Maybe also nowadays people complain more.

At the end of the day, developers are smart. They follow the money.

I also think Apple is doing a bit of the "enshitification" and race to the bottom stuff they used to avoid. The way they infest the OS with ads for their services, the fact that they have made it worse to use many apps without subscriptions to their services. The App Store policies seem designed not to be a fair set of rules but as a balancing act of not annoying too many big name devs while maintaining as much revenue as possible. I think that chasing services revenue is poisoning the company.

 

[quarkysg]

I also think Apple is doing a bit of the "enshitification" and race to the bottom stuff they used to avoid. The way they infest the OS with ads for their services, the fact that they have made it worse to use many apps without subscriptions to their services. The App Store policies seem designed not to be a fair set of rules but as a balancing act of not annoying too many big name devs while maintaining as much revenue as possible. I think that chasing services revenue is poisoning the company.

Well, I certainly don't see Apple's iOS ads tho. all the time tho. I'm sometimes reminded that my "free" service (e.g. Apple Arcage, Apple TV+, Apple Music) trial period will be over and that's when I registers new device using my Apple ID.

I don't get why folks keep saying that Apple is showing ads in iOS tho.

I guess holding Apple to a higher standards is in play here.

 

[Aaronage]

I had a long introduction to the topic and then I saw this podcast description from the ATP podcast, and it describes my concern so I’ll quote it here.

"Apple continues to release great products while needlessly antagonizing just about everyone."

Just recently I read that DHH has supposedly abandoned using iOS and macOS personally. He’s a moron in many ways, but is an example of someone who used and promoted Apple’s platforms for a long time.

Will someone save the company from certain aspects of its leadership?

Specifically, I see many devs getting really angry with App Store rules, documentation, and Xcode quality. It’s probably ok while the iPhone remains very popular, but if something slips, what will be left?

Agree completely with this sentiment.

I haven't got the time to properly organise my thoughts on this. There are problems on multiple levels and I'm finding it increasingly difficult to have patience with Apple.

Apple's behaviour will come back to bite them eventually

 

[exoticspice1]

Developers will keep developing for apple’s products, because that’s where the customers who actually spend money are. Customers don’t spend money on android devices. The reasons for all this are exactly because apple does all these things which piss off developers but make customers feel safe to spend their money.

To add onto this post, devs do indeed go where the money is. PC gamers buy games mostly from Steam and barely buy from Epic Games Store (too bad Tim) or the MS store. Even EA, Ubisoft and Rockstar know this by now and even with their own launchers offer their own games on Steam. The largest userbase that spends the most money wins in devs eyes.

It’s also why the PS5/Switch is more popular with devs than Xbox cause of the same benefit as above.

——-
I think people severely underestimate on how many high end Androids get sold each year it’s in the 10s of millions. Not many. Of those the mobile market is notorious for freeium apps. Thus leaving iOS/App store as the breadwinner for most mobile devs.


In saying that Apple does need to be careful.

 

[dada_dave]

I would also point out that a lot of these developers have very similar complaints leveled against them by their customers - and many by their (former) employees. They may not be the size of Apple but they show no problem with nickel and diming their customers (including children), selling their customers’ personal info, and just generally acting like the arrogant assholes they (sometimes correctly) accuse Apple of being. Just because I occasionally agree that Apple and App Stores and the digital economy at large might need new rules doesn’t make me like them any more. I want change for very different reasons than they do and would be just as happy to make their rapacious business models extinct, or at least no where near as profitable as they would like it to be.

They should be just as, if not more, concerned about their customers leaving them because of their behavior. It’s just as bad if not worse for a lot of them. Some of them want these things so they can be even more abusive to their own captive audience. But you know what? Everyone is too big to fail until they aren’t …

Edit: guess I ranted a little here but I think the point stands nonetheless