# Gentlemen, start your engines. (Subscription required.)



## Thomas Veil

I’m sorry, but this is ridiculous. 

Toyota is going to make you pay to start your car with your key fob​


> According to a report from The Drive, Toyota models 2018 or newer will need a subscription in order for the key fob to support remote start functionality.



I blame Adobe. 









						Toyota is going to make you pay to start your car with your key fob
					

Cars newer than 2018 only come with a free trial of the feature.




					www.theverge.com


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## Eric

You have to wonder if they're all going this way, I've been looking at Teslas and they seem to have a subscription model for their autopilot system, either $10,000 for the duration of your ownership or $199 a month. Crazy, but I'll still probably add it when I'm ready to buy.


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## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> You have to wonder if they're all going this way, I've been looking at Teslas and they seem to have a subscription model for their autopilot system, either $10,000 for the duration of your ownership or $199 a month. Crazy, but I'll still probably add it when I'm ready to buy.



What if the subscription runs out while it’s in the middle of driving you somewhere…?


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## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> What if the subscription runs out while it’s in the middle of driving you somewhere…?



Hoping they at least have a warning as I'm cruising down the highway.


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## Yoused

Eric said:


> Hoping they at least have a warning as I'm cruising down the highway.




Given how poorly autopilot has performed (in a small handful of spectacular instances), I would sure not count on a warning. One guy in Montana had it going way too fast on a gravel road, and it kept giving him warnings (of little value, as the driver did not speak English) but did not slow down of its own accord even though it knew it was going too fast. That is some hellaciously bad edge-case design.


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## DT

BMW started this a while back for CarPlay, then pretty quickly reversed itself.

The Toyota situation is especially shitty, because it's a regular RF type fob, it doesn't need the remote/cloud based service to function, it uses that as some kind of additional network call (I believe it's some kind of authentication), and that service is bundled up into a subscription package.

Like our previous DD/RT or current Wrangler, it had/has remote services through uConnect, it's a pay service (free for the first year), but if you let it lapse, you only lose the smartphone connectivity, the RF based fob continues to operate as expected.

I kind of get the subscription model for some things, clearly something like XM, or even remote uConnect,  because they have underlying services (and related costs), but for technology that's inherent to the hardware, that can operate on its own, that should be a one time fee.  Like Tesla for the 3/Y LR models has a performanced boost option, you buy it, the car updates, and it's done, it never goes away (it's not even tied to your account, you sell the car, the new owner has it too).


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## DT

Eric said:


> You have to wonder if they're all going this way, I've been looking at Teslas and they seem to have a subscription model for their autopilot system, either $10,000 for the duration of your ownership or $199 a month. Crazy, but I'll still probably add it when I'm ready to buy.




The monthly subscription seems like a much better option, especially since you can turn it on/off like a streaming service, so if you wanted it for like a road trip one month, you could buy it, use it, cancel the service.    

FWIW, I'm all in on Tesla, but I have no desire for FSD.  I've worked in the AR/VR/CV space, I get a lot of what they're doing, how they're doing it, the complexities (i.e., I'm not spooked about the tech).  I'm just a bit too much of a driver, though I do use Autopilot on occasion, on the highway, just to have a little "attention relief', for longer-ish trips it's more like a very fancy ACC, where it's just assisting vs. driving autonomously.


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## Herdfan

Not 100% sure what they are calling "remote" start.  On my Ford truck I can start it if I am within distance of the key fob or I can use the Ford Connect app (which I use to start it quite often now that the weather is turning colder) to start it from almost anywhere.

One is a feature that has been on Ford's for years, maybe even a decade or longer.  The app based one is fairly new.  I can see them charging for using the app to start it, but not the key fob.


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## DT

Yeah, I was confused by the language too, at first I thought it might be some kind of cellular based fob, like a "smart remote" type thing, but no, it's just a regular ol' key fob like all/most cars use.


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## Edd

I have a 2021 RAV4 Hybrid, and am in the middle of the free year trial. The app works well enough for remote start. The key fob will remote start the old-fashioned way but the range is crazy short, way less than normal. 

If I want to keep up with remote start for the app, I’ll have to pay $8/month. Comes with other features like notifications if the sunroof or doors are left unlocked, remote unlock (which comes in handy somehow). Fun fact, this $36K car needs the app to check see tire pressure on individual tires, instead of displaying it on the dash. 

The article seems to be saying that the normal key fob remote start will quit working along with the app if you don’t pay up after the free trial. The Toyota nerd forum I visit has members disputing this is the case. Their fobs still work fine for remote start.


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## SuperMatt

I have a 2016 VW and it had a subscription service you could pay for called “car-net.”  It was free for the first year or two and allowed you to start/stop charging of the car with your phone and even turn on the heat while the car was still plugged in to get it warm before you start driving and save battery. 

I never renewed after the free time expired… not worth $200 a year. 

I recently got an email from VW saying that the service is shutting down because it relied on 3G and ATT is shutting down their 3G network. Makes you think twice about any similar service. Phones get changed often enough that relying on an older cell service isn’t a worry. Cars, on the other hand…


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## Ulenspiegel

If you want to get into your home pay a subscription fee to the door-lock company.

This world is going insane...


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## quagmire

Eric said:


> You have to wonder if they're all going this way, I've been looking at Teslas and they seem to have a subscription model for their autopilot system, either $10,000 for the duration of your ownership or $199 a month. Crazy, but I'll still probably add it when I'm ready to buy.




Autopilot is free and comes with the car. What is paid is "full self driving" which is not anywhere close to being that and not transferable if you buy a new Tesla. The only thing I want in FSD is auto lane change, but not shelling out $10K for that. 



Yoused said:


> Given how poorly autopilot has performed (in a small handful of spectacular instances), I would sure not count on a warning. One guy in Montana had it going way too fast on a gravel road, and it kept giving him warnings (of little value, as the driver did not speak English) but did not slow down of its own accord even though it knew it was going too fast. That is some hellaciously bad edge-case design.




Autopilot and even full self driving is meant for highways only right now. The current FSD Beta that people are able to sign up to get is testing driving in city streets. Not sure if it will ever work on those back roads that are gravel, etc since it would be hard to train the system for it. 

The blame for the misuse of the systems is on both Tesla and the user. Tesla for giving misleading names to the features and Musk running his mouth on Twitter. Users because they don't read the manual and can be just idiots( look at people who want defeat devices for the nag and people sitting in the backseat, etc).


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## Eric

quagmire said:


> Autopilot is free and comes with the car. What is paid is "full self driving" which is not anywhere close to being that and not transferable if you buy a new Tesla. The only thing I want in FSD is auto lane change, but not shelling out $10K for that.
> 
> 
> 
> Autopilot and even full self driving is meant for highways only right now. The current FSD Beta that people are able to sign up to get is testing driving in city streets. Not sure if it will ever work on those back roads that are gravel, etc since it would be hard to train the system for it.
> 
> The blame for the misuse of the systems is on both Tesla and the user. Tesla for giving misleading names to the features and Musk running his mouth on Twitter. Users because they don't read the manual and can be just idiots( look at people who want defeat devices for the nag and people sitting in the backseat, etc).



Ahh, okay thanks for the clarification.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> You have to wonder if they're all going this way, I've been looking at Teslas and they seem to have a subscription model for their autopilot system, either $10,000 for the duration of your ownership or $199 a month. Crazy, but I'll still probably add it when I'm ready to buy.




Yeah, I heard Telsa's advertising price is deceitful.  The price of the car sounds reasonable but the cost of software upgrades is exorbitant.  But since the market is so enamored with Telsa that rarely gets mentioned.


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## quagmire

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Yeah, I heard Telsa's advertising price is deceitful.  The price of the car sounds reasonable but the cost of software upgrades is exorbitant.  But since the market is so enamored with Telsa that rarely gets mentioned.




Mixing up two different complaints. Tesla can be deceitful in the cars price in that the configurator on the website defaults to the, " Include potential gas savings" which lowers the price by around $4,000 or so to what they estimate on how much money you will save in gas over the 5 year loan. Of course that isn't the real MSRP of the car or the true monthly payments you will be paying. 

And yes $10,000 for FSD is a ripoff in its current state and terms. Now as long as you still have the car, if Tesla decides FSD needs a new computer or camera upgrades, etc that is all free upgrade for the owner. But as stated above, it's not transferable. So if you buy a new Tesla in 3 years and FSD isn't completed by then, well too bad. That will be another $10,000( or whatever amount it costs in 3 years). 

No one needs FSD and it is full of gimmicks right now. It has 1 or 2 features that are desirable to me, but no way am I spending $10K for it.


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## DT

Ulenspiegel said:


> If you want to get into your home pay a subscription fee to the door-lock company.
> 
> This world is going insane...




Price on this forum is now $1.00 USD / per post, please send payment to EricsHookerAndBlowFund@icloud.com


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## Runs For Fun

Edd said:


> I have a 2021 RAV4 Hybrid, and am in the middle of the free year trial. The app works well enough for remote start. The key fob will remote start the old-fashioned way but the range is crazy short, way less than normal.
> 
> If I want to keep up with remote start for the app, I’ll have to pay $8/month. Comes with other features like notifications if the sunroof or doors are left unlocked, remote unlock (which comes in handy somehow). Fun fact, this $36K car needs the app to check see tire pressure on individual tires, instead of displaying it on the dash.
> 
> The article seems to be saying that the normal key fob remote start will quit working along with the app if you don’t pay up after the free trial. The Toyota nerd forum I visit has members disputing this is the case. Their fobs still work fine for remote start.



Yeah this is how I understood it that people were mad that the short range key fob remote start would also be locked behind a subscription. My Kia Optima has a remote start feature through their app that is a subscription which I can understand as it's basically a cellular connection to the car that can be controlled from anywhere. I'm curious now though if people are disputing the claim about the key fob.


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## Eric

DT said:


> Price on this forum is now $1.00 USD / per post, please send payment to EricsHookerAndBlowFund@icloud.com



Those things aren't going to pay for themselves you know.


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## DT

Right, per @quagmire only the "potential gas savings" price is the default displayed, but the real price is indicated from the first step of the buying process, and you can toggle that right online while researching.  I was never once confused over the actual purchase price - FSD, seperate price, clearly indicated at purchase.

Speaking of purchasing:  I LOVED the totally person-free buying process, a couple of clicks online, some follow up with a few docs uploaded, that's it.  I didn't speak to a person until we showed up for the delivery.

Anyway, all other software updates are all free, which is amazing.  Model 3s, just through software in the last couple of years: accelerate faster, have better range, all sorts of additional media features (Hulu, D+, Tidal),  better interior heating/cooling,  and things like adding remote real-time viewing of the cameras.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

quagmire said:


> Mixing up two different complaints. Tesla can be deceitful in the cars price in that the configurator on the website defaults to the, " Include potential gas savings" which lowers the price by around $4,000 or so to what they estimate on how much money you will save in gas over the 5 year loan. Of course that isn't the real MSRP of the car or the true monthly payments you will be paying.
> 
> And yes $10,000 for FSD is a ripoff in its current state and terms. Now as long as you still have the car, if Tesla decides FSD needs a new computer or camera upgrades, etc that is all free upgrade for the owner. But as stated above, it's not transferable. So if you buy a new Tesla in 3 years and FSD isn't completed by then, well too bad. That will be another $10,000( or whatever amount it costs in 3 years).
> 
> No one needs FSD and it is full of gimmicks right now. It has 1 or 2 features that are desirable to me, but no way am I spending $10K for it.




This may be a consumerism problem, but I don’t think most people who buy a Tesla do it to get a bare minimum EV. Meanwhile you could get a competitor EV from a manufacturer that doesn’t practice in these exorbitant software fees to get the gimmicky features but you already bought a Tesla. So what’s your option other than just forking over more money to Tesla.


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## DT

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> This may be a consumerism problem, but I don’t think most people who buy a Tesla do it to get a bare minimum EV. Meanwhile you could get a competitor EV from a manufacturer that doesn’t practice in these exorbitant software fees to get the gimmicky features but you already bought a Tesla. So what’s your option other than just forking over more money to Tesla.




I'm not sure I'm following, there's one major, very costly after purchase upgrade, FSD, otherwise the car is loaded with tech, convenience, features, performance - standard.  I don't think FSD even needs to be part of the conversation when talking about Tesla vs. other options for most of the mid-market.

I purchased a Tesla, I paid them one price, I don't intend to pay anything additional and I love the car as it sits as it's not missing any features, there's literally nothing else to buy (and even without FSD, Autopilot is reasonably sophisticated).

Oh, I reread your post, and I think there's again, some conflation of two different ideas - it's really this:

1)  Tesla buyers aren't buying a bare minimum / stripped EV, right, because everything other than FSD comes standard
2)  Buyers could buy opt for something less expensive, but that has nothing to do with Tesla "exorbitant software fees", as that's not the reality of the situation


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## Chew Toy McCoy

DT said:


> I'm not sure I'm following, there's one major, very costly after purchase upgrade, FSD, otherwise the car is loaded with tech, convenience, features, performance - standard.  I don't think FSD even needs to be part of the conversation when talking about Tesla vs. other options for most of the mid-market.
> 
> I purchased a Tesla, I paid them one price, I don't intend to pay anything additional and I love the car as it sits as it's not missing any features, there's literally nothing else to buy (and even without FSD, Autopilot is reasonably sophisticated).




What is FSD?


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## quagmire

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> This may be a consumerism problem, but I don’t think most people who buy a Tesla do it to get a bare minimum EV. Meanwhile you could get a competitor EV from a manufacturer that doesn’t practice in these exorbitant software fees to get the gimmicky features but you already bought a Tesla. So what’s your option other than just forking over more money to Tesla.






DT said:


> I'm not sure I'm following, there's one major, very costly after purchase upgrade, FSD, otherwise the car is loaded with tech, convenience, features, performance - standard.  I don't think FSD even needs to be part of the conversation when talking about Tesla vs. other options for most of the mid-market.
> 
> I purchased a Tesla, I paid them one price, I don't intend to pay anything additional and I love the car as it sits as it's not missing any features, there's literally nothing else to buy (and even without FSD, Autopilot is reasonably sophisticated).




Yeah not sure if I am following. 

Tesla's are already fairly nicely equipped. You just decide if you want the regular 3, the long range, or performance. Then all you can do is select paint, interior color, wheels( performance model only come with the 20" wheeks) and if you want to fork the $10K over for full self driving. That's it. Navigation comes with the car and is updated for free. Not paying the manufacture $200 a year for updates, etc. 

The only real decision you will need to make post-purchase is if you want to do the $10 a month for premium connectivity when the trial runs out. 

As DT mentioned, any updates that are not FSD related are free.


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## DT

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> What is FSD?




See above, that's Full Self Driving, that's the super duper, fully autonomous navigation system, i.e., you put in an address and take a nap. It's still very much under development, it's such a pie-in-the-sky, even in terms of legal concerns, without that, the car still has everything else including a very powerful "auto cruise control" (that holds lanes, brakes, etc.)


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## Ulenspiegel

DT said:


> Price on this forum is now $1.00 USD / per post, please send payment to EricsHookerAndBlowFund@icloud.com



Paid through PayPal.

Got an answer from Hookers_Of_The_World_Unite@icloud.com:

"Nice, but don't be shy, send the rest as well!"


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## Chew Toy McCoy

DT said:


> See above, that's Full Self Driving, that's the super duper, fully autonomous navigation system, i.e., you put in an address and take a nap. It's still very much under development, it's such a pie-in-the-sky, even in terms of legal concerns, without that, the car still has everything else including a very powerful "auto cruise control" (that holds lanes, brakes, etc.)




Got it. I thought it was for any kind of major upgrade, like a computer or phone OS....like if Apple charged $100 for an iPhone but $1,000 for every OS upgrade.  

10k sounds a little steep for FSD, but maybe it's some perverse way to reduce the amount of people killing themselves abusing what sounds like beta software.  It's like a large buy-in fee to play car russian roulette.


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## Ulenspiegel

@DT:

There is a promotion, pay in advance, get a free year subscription and a T-shirt:


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## DT

Ulenspiegel said:


> Paid through PayPal.
> 
> Got an answer from Hookers_Of_The_World_Unite@icloud.com:
> 
> "Nice, but don't be shy, send the rest as well!"




Oh, are you sure you didn't send it to:  EricIsAHookerOnBlowFund@icloud.com, that's our Go Fund Me address for an intervention we're going to schedule ...


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## DT

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Got it. I thought it was for any kind of major upgrade, like a computer or phone OS....like if Apple charged $100 for an iPhone but $1,000 for every OS upgrade.
> 
> 10k sounds a little steep for FSD, but maybe it's some perverse way to reduce the amount of people killing themselves abusing what sounds like beta software.  It's like a large buy-in fee to play car russian roulette.




Yeah, it's really just like Apple, updates, both incremental and major are all no cost (like going from 10.14.5 to 10.14.6 or upgrading  Mojave >> Catalina >> Big Sur).

The thing that's sort of slick about Tesla, is there's so much they can do with just software updates, since all the systems are computer controlled (and so many discrete functional areas of the car have programmable microcontrollers - it's really like a computer).  They had a small update that changed the logic in the HVAC system, with how it interprets temp (using the onboard temp sensor data) and how it adjusts the airflow/air temp/vents.  We got ours after this, but there was an update a year or so ago, and the car got faster, I mean, you literally downloaded a performance update.

Not that this is limited to Tesla at this point, the new Lucid platform is insanely sophisticated, and quite a few of the EV_from_the_ground_up platforms are doing some of the same - though, it's kind of funny that some of this sort of programmable car systems could've been done with ICE platforms, and it was to a degree, but the EV really accelerated this sort of design (I'd say Tesla was a notable contributor to manufacturers rethinking transportation).


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## Edd

Runs For Fun said:


> Yeah this is how I understood it that people were mad that the short range key fob remote start would also be locked behind a subscription. My Kia Optima has a remote start feature through their app that is a subscription which I can understand as it's basically a cellular connection to the car that can be controlled from anywhere. I'm curious now though if people are disputing the claim about the key fob.



The thing is, if the fob had normal range, I wouldn’t even consider paying for the app. My work and home situations for parking need proper range so feeling kinda fucked by Toyota. Our Subaru remote start destroys this thing.


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## DT

Edd said:


> The thing is, if the fob had normal range, I wouldn’t even consider paying for the app. My work and home situations for parking need proper range so feeling kinda fucked by Toyota. Our Subaru remote start destroys this thing.




Yeah, like our Jeep fob works from where I'm sitting, that's got to be a good 50-60 feet away, through multiple walls.  No idea what a clear LOS would allow for, but it's decently far.  I'd assume a lot of folks want to be able to start and warm/cool their car at least from their house/office to their car in the driveway/parking lot.


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## Joe

Everything is going subscription based. It's ridiculous. 

I have a 2019 Toyota Tacoma, but I do not have remote start installed on it. Never felt the need for it.


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## DT

JagRunner said:


> I have a 2019 Toyota Tacoma, but I do not have remote start installed on it. Never felt the need for it.


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## Joe

DT said:


>




Mine is white, but doesn't look like that lol


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## DT

JagRunner said:


> Mine is white, but doesn't look like that lol




Is it really? Hahaha, I had no idea, that's just the one posted from the article (that's a prototype EV model).


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