# Macs, PCs, or Consoles For Gaming?



## Huntn

Huntn said:


> All the meaningful game talk concerns PC gaming. Most of the Mac gaming chat has to do with compatibility, getting something to run issue.
> 
> Macs are far from toys, but are ill suited for gaming because a toss up between Apple not willing to make them desirable, and over charging for their hardware. The last MBP I bought in 2016 was a $2000 model with integrated graphics, thats sad. The killer PC gaming rig I built in 2013 with a dedicated graphic card cost $1100. It’s still in use today, I’ve upgraded the  graphic card twice since then.
> 
> That said, I love the Mac OS, but it’s likely for my nexy Mac will be a downgrade to a Mac Book Air or equivalent..






SuperMatt said:


> I don’t disagree that there are more games for PCs.
> 
> But I always find it funny when the folks who call Macs ”toys” are the same ones who use their PC primarily for gaming.






P_X said:


> My productivity went up when I migrated away from PC to Mac and pushed the gaming on a PS4 a few years later.
> It's also much nicer to play split screen Borderlands rather trying to make L4D2 happen on 2 macs with integrated graphics.






DT said:


> Hahahaha ...
> 
> "Macs are toys, I have a kickass gaming PC!"
> 
> "That sounds great, I'm using my Mac to write machine learning code to predict outcomes for pediatric traumatic brain injury ... enjoy your Cyberpunk 2077 ..."




Without a doubt, PCs are better suited for gaming. Developers are actively developing for PC/Consoles. The Mac OS at best is an afterthought. 

That said, Macs for all serious computing, generally speaking they are more trouble free, more user friendly, at least in my experience. My PC is a better gaming machine, but I find myself cursing it semi-regularly, so there is a price to be paid.


----------



## Pumbaa

Macs or PCs for gaming? Consoles!


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> Macs or PCs for gaming? Consoles!



I fixed the title. 

I have an XBox 360, seldom play it anymore, mostly when the Grand kids are visiting.


----------



## SuperMatt

I used to play lots of games on the apple l l, then my brother had a sega Genesis ... later on I played some games on a PlayStation and when I got my first job other than food service, I bought a Dreamcast which I played for years.

When WoW first came out, I was on it all the time on my PowerBook G4… but I got too addicted to it and stopped.

In the last 10 years, I have almost solely played games on iPhone or iPad.


----------



## User 189

Huntn said:


> Without a doubt, PCs are better suited for gaming. Developers are actively developing for PC/Consoles. The Mac OS at best is an afterthought.
> 
> That said, Macs for all serious computing, generally speaking they are more trouble free, more user friendly, at least in my experience. My PC is a better gaming machine, but I find myself cursing it semi-regularly, so there is a price to be paid.



Google Stadia (and game streaming in general) makes Mac gaming a whole lot more bearable.


----------



## Huntn

SuperMatt said:


> I used to play lots of games on the apple l l, then my brother had a sega Genesis ... later on I played some games on a PlayStation and when I got my first job other than food service, I bought a Dreamcast which I played for years.
> 
> When WoW first came out, I was on it all the time on my PowerBook G4… but I got too addicted to it and stopped.
> 
> In the last 10 years, I have almost solely played games on iPhone or iPad.



WoW was a bit addicting... I played it 3 times for about a year each, the first 2 times.


----------



## TheHateMachine

I game exclusively on PC. Emulators and Steam pretty much.


----------



## Renzatic

I used to play games on the PC exclusively, but since I bought my Switch, I've been using it 99.9% of the time. 

There's just something about laying back on the couch, TV on in the background, that's just...chillax.


----------



## User.45

Renzatic said:


> I used to play games on the PC exclusively, but since I bought my Switch, I've been using it 99.9% of the time.
> 
> There's just something about laying back on the couch, TV on in the background, that's just...chillax.



I hate having that few hours to game and Steam feels like it has to refresh and I forgot my password again... 
On a console I can play while standing, no updates just ones every few months.


----------



## Renzatic

P_X said:


> I hate having that few hours to game and Steam feels like it has to refresh and I forgot my password again...
> On a console I can play while standing, no updates just ones every few months.




I've never had too many problems with Steam. I set it to remember my password the first time I install it, and it logs me in no problem from that point on.

That said, I do tend to use GOG a lot more these days. There's no DRM to worry about, so all you have to do is launch the .exe oldschool style to play your games. Plus, the Galaxy client is a helluva lot smoother to use relative to Steam.


----------



## User.45

Renzatic said:


> I've never had too many problems with Steam. I set it to remember my password the first time I install it, and it logs me in no problem from that point on.
> 
> That said, I do tend to use GOG a lot more these days. There's no DRM to worry about, so all you have to do is launch the .exe oldschool style to play your games. Plus, the Galaxy client is a helluva lot smoother to use relative to Steam.



To me, steam kinda became like netflix too. I just hate seeing all the games listed and feeling undecided or FOMO about my game of choice. But honestly, I just play BlackOps4 it's a nice 10 min thrill and I move on for the day. It takes longer for me to get into steam, etc.


----------



## User 189

P_X said:


> To me, steam kinda became like netflix too. I just hate seeing all the games listed and feeling undecided or FOMO about my game of choice. But honestly, I just play BlackOps4 it's a nice 10 min thrill and I move on for the day. It takes longer for me to get into steam, etc.



I'd argue that game streaming services are closer to Netflix rather than Steam.


----------



## User.45

AutomaticApple said:


> I'd argue that game streaming services are closer to Netflix rather than Steam.



Absolutely.


----------



## Renzatic

P_X said:


> To me, steam kinda became like netflix too. I just hate seeing all the games listed and feeling undecided or FOMO about my game of choice. But honestly, I just play BlackOps4 it's a nice 10 min thrill and I move on for the day. It takes longer for me to get into steam, etc.




I have to admit, those 300+ meg updates you're forced to get when you first fire up Steam would be an absolute chore to go through if you don't have a fast internet connection.

Steam has become way too bloated for its own good. It's like iTunes in a way: a great program that tried to be too many things, and ended up being good at none of them.


----------



## User.45

Renzatic said:


> I have to admit, those 300+ meg updates you're forced to get when you first fire up Steam would be an absolute chore to go through if you don't have a fast internet connection.
> 
> Steam has become way too bloated for its own good. It's like iTunes in a way: a great program that tried to be too many things, and ended up being good at none of them.



THe issue is that I use it too rarely, so it always starts up with those updates.


----------



## Renzatic

P_X said:


> THe issue is that I use it too rarely, so it always starts up with those updates.




That actually might be better, since there are times when you'll see two or three a week. If you fire it up rarely, you'll only have to deal with it once.

The best thing to do is just turn it on, and leave it on.


----------



## Pumbaa

Anyone else claiming tons of free games on the Epic Games Store via the web (just because temporarily free!) but refusing to install their client?


----------



## Renzatic

Pumbaa said:


> Anyone else claiming tons of free games on the Epic Games Store via the web (just because temporarily free!) but refusing to install their client?




I've grabbed about 40 something free games from them, and have yet to play a single one.


----------



## DT

Only consoles, do not like gaming on computers, though I did some computer gaming decades ago.

All the games I'd be interested in are console (and many are console only), and developed to a console specification, so I don't need to worry about which video card, drivers, etc., it's a more simplified process for me and feels less like work.  I plop down on a sofa, fire up a 65" 4K TV, with an AVR/speakers, etc., all setup for a maximum AV experience - and if it's [local] multiplayer, we can all find a comfortable spot, with plenty of display visibility.


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> Anyone else claiming tons of free games on the Epic Games Store via the web (just because temporarily free!) but refusing to install their client?



The client is just a small program. No reason not to install it? I have one game I purchased there (Outer World) at a good price. And I scoop up their free games including Alien Isolation, although I had already already bought that on Steam on sale.


Renzatic said:


> I've grabbed about 40 something free games from them, and have yet to play a single one.



This is basically me. I’m primarily on Steam.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> Only consoles, do not like gaming on computers, though I did some computer gaming decades ago.
> 
> All the games I'd be interested in are console (and many are console only), and developed to a console specification, so I don't need to worry about which video card, drivers, etc., it's a more simplified process for me and feels less like work.  I plop down on a sofa, fire up a 65" 4K TV, with an AVR/speakers, etc., all setup for a maximum AV experience - and if it's [local] multiplayer, we can all find a comfortable spot, with plenty of display visibility.



Yup. I get fixated on tweaking settings on a PC and that again kills the experience. Also, I have like GTX 1070 (non-Ti)...


----------



## Renzatic

Huntn said:


> This is basically me. I’m primarily on Steam.




I could install them if I wanted to. I have the Epic client on my PC due to UE4. 

...I just never feel like bothering to fire it up for anything else but.


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> The client is just a small program. No reason not to install it? I have one game I purchased there (Outer World) at a good price. And I scoop up their free games including Alien Isolation, although I had already already bought that on Steam on sale.



I’ll install it if I ever get the urge to play any of the free games I’ve ”bought” and don’t have easy access to them in any other way, like in my Steam library.


----------



## Huntn

I’ve noticed that no one has tried selling their Mac as an ideal gaming solution, no surprise there.


----------



## Renzatic

Huntn said:


> I’ve noticed that no one has tried selling their Mac as an ideal gaming solution, no surprise there.




I bet you could play a helluva good game of ping pong with a Macbook Air. They're light, but they've got just enough heft to them to make for a good paddle...


----------



## User 189

Huntn said:


> I’ve noticed that no one has tried selling their Mac as an ideal gaming solution, no surprise there.



Well...


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> I’ve noticed that no one has tried selling their Mac as an ideal gaming solution, no surprise there.



I was actually carefully researching and buying parts for a modern Hackintosh, said frak it, bought a M1ni instead and made the Hackintosh-to-be my gaming PC. That almost counts as a Mac, right?


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> I’ve noticed that no one has tried selling their Mac as an ideal gaming solution, no surprise there.




A Porsche TT isn't good for hauling mulch ...  

Honestly, there's plenty of good games for Mac if someone want to be entertained - I think it really just depends on what you want.  I looked at a few "Top N games for Mac", and several look pretty awesome and have killer reviews.  I think if your goal is to play some specific AAA PC game, nah, it's not a great idea, but for me, a PC is an equally bad idea because you can't play Resident Evil Village


----------



## Huntn

DT said:


> A Porsche TT isn't good for hauling mulch ...
> 
> Honestly, there's plenty of good games for Mac if someone want to be entertained - I think it really just depends on what you want.  I looked at a few "Top N games for Mac", and several look pretty awesome and have killer reviews.  I think if your goal is to play some specific AAA PC game, nah, it's not a great idea, but for me, a PC is an equally bad idea because you can't play Resident Evil Village



Cyberpunk 2077 is impressive as hell with some  serious issues that dissapointed the hard core fans.  More on that soon.


----------



## User.45

Do you guys want to throw a Left4Dead party? It's kinda the only fun game that (used to) run(s) on Mac and it's 4 player coop.


----------



## Huntn

P_X said:


> Do you guys want to throw a Left4Dead party? It's kinda the only fun game that (used to) run(s) on Mac and it's 4 player coop.



Don’t take this personal, but I’ll pass. L4D is a great game, a lot of fun coop, played that for years, but it’s been there done that for me.

I’m in a guild, have played a couple years with others in online survival games, like Conan:Exiles and ARK: Survival Evolved, but what I discovered is that online servers are very perishable, I know a group of people who play together for company, but I’m been there done that too, especially for base building games, and now spend most of my time playing solo.


----------



## tranceking26

Huntn said:


> I’ve noticed that no one has tried selling their Mac as an ideal gaming solution, no surprise there.



My 2015 MBP can handle NES games well 

The times I actually play modern games are on my consoles, the last year or so I started embracing digital copies.

I have Steam and actually most of my games there can be played on Mac, but I haven't tested any of them yet.


----------



## Huntn

tranceking26 said:


> My 2015 MBP can handle NES games well
> 
> The times I actually play modern games are on my consoles, the last year or so I started embracing digital copies.
> 
> I have Steam and actually most of my games there can be played on Mac, but I haven't tested any of them yet.



I had a 21011 MBP with a dedicated card ($2600) which was perfectly adequate at the time for gaming via Bootcamp. Then in 2016, Apple upped the price on that model to $3k and I said screw that. And now Bootcamp is history (I think) so I’m done with Macs for gaming, I still have my 2016 MBP with integrated graphics for all the serious computer work I do, except gaming. That happens on my home built PC.


----------



## tranceking26

Huntn said:


> except gaming. That happens on my home built PC.



What specs are your PC?


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> Do you guys want to throw a Left4Dead party? It's kinda the only fun game that (used to) run(s) on Mac and it's 4 player coop.




Oh man, I might be up for something like this, I might have to steal the M1 MBP ... FYI I tend to shoot the players on my own team


----------



## DT

We used to have LONG nights post work - and with some work mingled in - of playing Marathon on the local Mac network back in the late 90s.


----------



## DT

Speaking of gamer-ing ...

I stole my little G's gaming chair, hahahaha, my office chair was destroyed, hers was basically new and just sitting in the landing area.  I moved over my nice armrests (I had replaced them several months back) and my super nice inline BB wheels (these are an immediate upgrade for any office chairs).

I mean, she abandoned it, hahahaha, she's constantly moving furniture / rearranging her room, she took her desk from the landing area and moved it into her room one night, but using her pink and white smaller, task type chair with it.

__MY__ new chair is black with red logos and the wheels I moved over have black hubs ... looks pretty swell


----------



## lizkat

DT said:


> We used to have LONG nights post work - and with some work mingled in - of playing Marathon on the local Mac network back in the late 90s.




Way before there were options like that, we used to shove some long-running job into the mainframe queue after we'd fixed any last minute compilation errors around 10 or 11pm, and then head out to one of the local brasseries or bistros east of Park Ave and make a meal of some shared appetizers and a few rounds of fancy ales for a couple hours.   The ops were cooperative, even used to phone over to one place we were likely to hang out and let us know when the thing was finally printing.  Needless to say sometimes our review of the output was rather cursory.

 Much later on at another place,  some of us kept that sort of thing up even in the 90s...  babysitting new cron jobs in the last rounds of beta tests can get boring,  so we'd head over to 12th Ave to some Chinese places tourists never heard of,  get some simple thing off-menu like just some tofu and bok choi in chicken broth or whatever, then wander back past a pizza place to pick up the pie we'd ordered on our way west...  just in case when we got back we were looking at another 4 hours of boredom punctuated by exasperated patches to the jobstreams. Good times.


----------



## Huntn

tranceking26 said:


> What specs are your PC?



PC: i5 (9th gen), 16GB RAM, Asus GTX2070 (8Gb VRAM), W10, Oculus Rift


----------



## Herdfan

I have given up on consoles.  I don't get to play much, but if I have 15 minutes before the wife is ready to watch something, I would  fire up the XBox and play something.  Usually some driving game.

But it got to be where it had to update this or that then the game had an update and the 15 minutes I had came and went while waiting for it up update.  Liked them better when they weren't connected to the internet.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> I have given up on consoles.  I don't get to play much, but if I have 15 minutes before the wife is ready to watch something, I would  fire up the XBox and play something.  Usually some driving game.




GET A STEAM DECK!


----------



## gollum

Renzatic said:


> GET A STEAM DECK!



I don't think that's something you can get any time soon.  The current estimates state "After Q3 2022"  I'd guess 2023 is more reasonable.  

I wouldn't mind the steam deck myself but not enough to overpay on eBay or wait until 2023.


----------



## Colstan

I realize that the Mac isn't an ideal platform for gaming, but all Apple Silicon Macs now ship with GPUs that are powerful enough to handle modern games, assuming devs put the effort into making a Mac version. I am fortunate in that 90% of the computer games that I play are isometric turn-based RPGs, and almost 100% of those have a Mac version. When I want to play a different genre, I haven't had too much difficulty finding something worth playing. I realize that I play a specific niche, but that allows me to have a Mac as my only gaming device. I've considered building a gaming PC on the side, but I am not sure I can justify it. Besides cost, there are factors like noise, heat and having to deal with Windows. I currently use an Intel Mac mini with an eGPU, so I still get by with what I have, and can boot Windows if I need to. That will soon come to an end as Intel Macs age out.

Regardless, Mac gaming is now fully transitioning over to Apple Silicon. Feral just announced Total War: Warhammer III and it's Apple Silicon only. That's not the only game that is exclusive to the M-series. We can expect this to become more common, according to the Steam survey from April, 39% of Mac gamers are now using Apple Silicon Macs. This transition is happening faster than I had expected, the clock is clearly ticking on x86 Macs, but it's good to see game developers starting to optimize for the Mac's future.


----------



## Cmaier

Colstan said:


> I realize that the Mac isn't an ideal platform for gaming, but all Apple Silicon Macs now ship with GPUs that are powerful enough to handle modern games, assuming devs put the effort into making a Mac version. I am fortunate in that 90% of the computer games that I play are isometric turn-based RPGs, and almost 100% of those have a Mac version. When I want to play a different genre, I haven't had too much difficulty finding something worth playing. I realize that I play a specific niche, but that allows me to have a Mac as my only gaming device. I've considered building a gaming PC on the side, but I am not sure I can justify it. Besides cost, there are factors like noise, heat and having to deal with Windows. I currently use an Intel Mac mini with an eGPU, so I still get by with what I have, and can boot Windows if I need to. That will soon come to an end as Intel Macs age out.
> 
> Regardless, Mac gaming is now fully transitioning over to Apple Silicon. Feral just announced Total War: Warhammer III and it's Apple Silicon only. That's not the only game that is exclusive to the M-series. We can expect this to become more common, according to the Steam survey from April, 39% of Mac gamers are now using Apple Silicon Macs. This transition is happening faster than I had expected, the clock is clearly ticking on x86 Macs, but it's good to see game developers starting to optimize for the Mac's future.




I pretty much only play civilization, so mac is good enough for me.  Heck, iPad works great.


----------



## Colstan

Cmaier said:


> I pretty much only play civilization, so mac is good enough for me.  Heck, iPad works great.



You've probably mentioned this before @Cmaier, and I just don't recall, but what Mac do you use? I know we're both envious of the Mac Studio, and I've bloviated about my history with various Mac minis, but I'm not familiar with what computer(s) you use, if you don't mind me asking.


----------



## Cmaier

Colstan said:


> You've probably mentioned this before @Cmaier, and I just don't recall, but what Mac do you use? I know we're both envious of the Mac Studio, and I've bloviated about my history with various Mac minis, but I'm not familiar with what computer(s) you use, if you don't mind me asking.



Primarily a MacBook Pro (M1 16”, with M1 Max).  I still have “in service” a very old 11” macbook air, a 2016 15” MBP, and a pretty old imac I inherited.  My wife and daughter each use M1 MacBook airs.  So there are a lot of macs floating around the house  

I also have a collection of out-of-service macbook pros, MacBooks, and MacBook airs dating back to the Leopard days. And a franken-box in the garage which was from my days at Exponential Technology and which I never used.


----------



## Colstan

Cmaier said:


> Primarily a MacBook Pro (M1 16”, with M1 Max).  I still have “in service” a very old 11” macbook air, a 2016 15” MBP, and a pretty old imac I inherited.  My wife and daughter each use M1 MacBook airs.  So there are a lot of macs floating around the house



I admit I find it amusing that an Opteron architect who worked on the draft for x86-64, who clearly had a major impact on x86 and AMD as a company, is a Mac guy, and now an ARM guy, too. (Yes, I know you chose to work on RISC designs, it's just AMD where you apparently had the most impact on the entire PC market.) Before I got my first Mac mini, I was all-in on PCs. On a whim I installed the Intel beta of Tiger on my PC, got my first Mac in 2005, and left PCs behind. Back when I was young and stupid, I hated Apple and the Mac, and even owned stock in Intel and Microsoft. Now that I've grown to be old and stupid, I have a hard time swallowing the concept of building a PC, even if just for gaming.

I know you like to tell your "vim story", as I call it, from back in the day. Didn't you also work on SPARC, @Cmaier, or at least interview with them? I could never get a handle on Sun. I had a meeting with a Sun Microsystems representative, at the FOSE trade show, where they were showing off the latest and greatest from their labs. Instead of concentrating on the company's latest workstations, the rep kept trying to sell me on classic Mac OS emulation on Solaris. The only reason I remember this, or indeed that they built a Mac OS emulator, was because the lady who was peddling Sun's wares kept insisting that it's "emulation, but it's fast!". Somehow, she took it as a personal affront that I was skeptical that emulating Mac OS on Solaris wasn't performant enough, and she felt it necessary to convince me otherwise. I had no need for the emulator, the meeting was a waste, but it made an impact, because I still remember it to this day.


----------



## Cmaier

Colstan said:


> I admit I find it amusing that an Opteron architect who worked on the draft for x86-64, who clearly had a major impact on x86 and AMD as a company, is a Mac guy, and now an ARM guy, too. (Yes, I know you chose to work on RISC designs, it's just AMD where you apparently had the most impact on the entire PC market.) Before I got my first Mac mini, I was all-in on PCs. On a whim I installed the Intel beta of Tiger on my PC, got my first Mac in 2005, and left PCs behind. Back when I was young and stupid, I hated Apple and the Mac, and even owned stock in Intel and Microsoft. Now that I've grown to be old and stupid, I have a hard time swallowing the concept of building a PC, even if just for gaming.
> 
> I know you like to tell your "vim story", as I call it, from back in the day. Didn't you also work on SPARC, @Cmaier, or at least interview with them? I could never get a handle on Sun. I had a meeting with a Sun Microsystems representative, at the FOSE trade show, where they were showing off the latest and greatest from their labs. Instead of concentrating on the company's latest workstations, the rep kept trying to sell me on classic Mac OS emulation on Solaris. The only reason I remember this, or indeed that they built a Mac OS emulator, was because the lady who was peddling Sun's wares kept insisting that it's "emulation, but it's fast!". Somehow, she took it as a personal affront that I was skeptical that emulating Mac OS on Solaris wasn't performant enough, and she felt it necessary to convince me otherwise. I had no need for the emulator, the meeting was a waste, but it made an impact, because I still remember it to this day.




Yes, I worked at Sun Microelectronics (the CPU subsidiary) for 3 months - I gave notice after 2, on the same day I won the “Millenium Falcon” award for my contributions to Millenium (UltraSparc V), which mostly had to do with me getting tired of nobody being able to design how we were supposed to design the chip so I just wrote my own program to start doing part of it.  Prior to that I worked on PowerPC’s at Exponential. 

I fondly remember those SPARC pizza-box machines.  I used them in my PhD program (and, of course, at Sun, where we were also all given “java stations” which were piles of garbage).  We even used them for about half the time I was at AMD, though eventually we ended up with linux boxes on our own chips (which were much faster than SPARC). We also had a lot of SPARCs in the compute farm, and we could use lof to launch tools to whatever machine we wanted - sometimes SPARC was necessary for compatibility.


----------



## Citysnaps

Though it's not a game, rather a real and extremely accurate flight simulator, I'm looking forward to the release of X-Plane 12 and then purchasing either a Mini or Studio to run it. I suspect it will be a Studio because I need the ports ( a couple displays, yoke, rudder pedals, switches, Stream (not Steam) Deck, etc).

Last year I was very impressed being able to run X-Plane 11 (non M1 native) with a decent amount on scenery/objects/texture/antialiasing/FPS on my M1 MBA which was also driving an iPad (navigation and mapping via WiFi), and 4K 75" TV via an HDMI adapter.


----------



## Colstan

Over at "the other place", they did a short interview with Feral Interactive about the future of Mac gaming and the capabilities that the switch to Apple Silicon offers developers. Feral is quite bullish about games for the Mac, now that they don't have to work around Intel's integrated graphics. Also, it's notable that Apple made changes to Metal specifically at the request of Feral's developers. We often hear the complaint that Apple doesn't care about computer games, but that's simply not true. It isn't a focus for the company, but they will work with friendly companies that want to work with them. Apple hasn't just modified Metal based upon feedback from Feral, but helped 4A optimize Metro Exodus for Rosetta 2, and worked with Larian to optimize their games. Larian even had Touch Bar support for DOS2 and have had assistance with Baldur's Gate 3, which is the first ARM native "AAA" title. Apple regularly demos the Unity Engine, and has showcased BG3 in their presentations.

Of course, the MR crowd has taken a decidedly negative view, as is tradition. However, I think these are positive signs, since all M-series Macs have powerful hardware, unlike the x86 era, where Intel integrated graphics were the norm.


----------



## Andropov

Colstan said:


> Over at "the other place", they did a short interview with Feral Interactive about the future of Mac gaming and the capabilities that the switch to Apple Silicon offers developers. Feral is quite bullish about games for the Mac, now that they don't have to work around Intel's integrated graphics. Also, it's notable that Apple made changes to Metal specifically at the request of Feral's developers. We often hear the complaint that Apple doesn't care about computer games, but that's simply not true. It isn't a focus for the company, but they will work with friendly companies that want to work with them. Apple hasn't just modified Metal based upon feedback from Feral, but helped 4A optimize Metro Exodus for Rosetta 2, and worked with Larian to optimize their games. Larian even had Touch Bar support for DOS2 and have had assistance with Baldur's Gate 3, which is the first ARM native "AAA" title. Apple regularly demos the Unity Engine, and has showcased BG3 in their presentations.
> 
> Of course, the MR crowd has taken a decidedly negative view, as is tradition. However, I think these are positive signs, since all M-series Macs have powerful hardware, unlike the x86 era, where Intel integrated graphics were the norm.



Given how Sony and Microsoft are buying every single third party studio out there, I'm afraid no matter how powerful Mac chips are, there's not going to be any studio left to develop games for them. Also, while the chips are more powerful, to fully utilise the hardware capabilities (TBDR, UMA...) extra development effort is going to be required compared to porting to Intel based Macs. We'll see if the (massive) upgrade in GPU performance to the popular Mac models is enough to drive game developers in.

In the meantime, I just bough a PS5


----------



## Cmaier

Andropov said:


> Given how Sony and Microsoft are buying every single third party studio out there, I'm afraid no matter how powerful Mac chips are, there's not going to be any studio left to develop games for them. Also, while the chips are more powerful, to fully utilise the hardware capabilities (TBDR, UMA...) extra development effort is going to be required compared to porting to Intel based Macs. We'll see if the (massive) upgrade in GPU performance to the popular Mac models is enough to drive game developers in.
> 
> In the meantime, I just bough a PS5



I have it on good authority that something is afoot re: AAA games and studios, but I know no more than that.  Apple is trying.


----------



## diamond.g

Cmaier said:


> I have it on good authority that something is afoot re: AAA games and studios, but I know no more than that.  Apple is trying.



Lots of studios for sale these days…


----------



## JayMysteri0

Renzatic said:


> GET A STEAM DECK!




The problem with the Steam Deck is if you are NOT an avid PC player, perhaps many of your select games aren't Steam verified.  I currently only have 2 games on Deck that will work.  I was interested in one Star Wars game that was on sale May 4th, only to discover I had no way of knowing if it would work on the Deck.  So now I've been looking at emulation ( Dolphin ) to play some old games that are no longer available to be played.



Cmaier said:


> I have it on good authority that something is afoot re: AAA games and studios, but I know no more than that.  Apple is trying.



Please don't let this involve Squenix or the IPs they just shed.


----------



## Renzatic

JayMysteri0 said:


> The problem with the Steam Deck is if you are NOT an avid PC player, perhaps many of your select games aren't Steam verified. I currently only have 2 games on Deck that will work. I was interested in one Star Wars game that was on sale May 4th, only to discover I had no way of knowing if it would work on the Deck. So now I've been looking at emulation ( Dolphin ) to play some old games that are no longer available to be played.




Have you tried playing any to confirm they don't work, or are you simply going off their verified status?

If it's the latter, the best thing you can do is try it out. I'm on Linux these days, and I play the occasional game through WINE here and there, and there's only a small handful of games I either haven't been able to get to work, or have had performance issues. I'd say that, based off my street maff guesstimation, a good 85% of my Steam library works perfectly on Linux.

Go to places like r/SteamDeck, and you'll see that people run across games that run perfectly, but aren't verified all the time.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Renzatic said:


> Have you tried playing any to confirm they don't work, or are you simply going off their verified status?
> 
> If it's the latter, the best thing you can do is try it out. I'm on Linux these days, and I play the occasional game through WINE here and there, and there's only a small handful of games I either haven't been able to get to work, or have had performance issues. I'd say that, based off my street maff guesstimation, a good 85% of my Steam library works perfectly on Linux.
> 
> Go to places like r/SteamDeck, and you'll see that people run across games that run perfectly, but aren't verified all the time.



Since I hadn't been a PC gamer for quite some time I only have a handful of games.  Fortunately the games I do have our popular enough that there are Youtube vids showing their poor performance or lack thereof.  On newer games like WWE 2k22, people have already reported they couldn't get it started.  Other games seem to be a bit iffy if they recognize the Steam Deck have controller support.  So I've tended to rely on whether a game is Steam verified, because I have so few games it makes it easier to go by their recommendations.

I am excited about the fan controls currently in the beta.  Much needed.


----------



## Renzatic

JayMysteri0 said:


> Since I hadn't been a PC gamer for quite some time I only have a handful of games.  Fortunately the games I do have our popular enough that there are Youtube vids showing their poor performance or lack thereof.  On newer games like WWE 2k22, people have already reported they couldn't get it started.  Other games seem to be a bit iffy if they recognize the Steam Deck have controller support.  So I've tended to rely on whether a game is Steam verified, because I have so few games it makes it easier to go by their recommendations.
> 
> I am excited about the fan controls currently in the beta.  Much needed.




If you want a good heads up on what works and what doesn't, and don't want to have to scour through Reddit posts looking for info, then check out...

...The Proton Database!


----------



## JayMysteri0

Renzatic said:


> If you want a good heads up on what works and what doesn't, and don't want to have to scour through Reddit posts looking for info, then check out...
> 
> ...The Proton Database!



Appreciate it.

As I said though, if get the time I think I would like to join the many who've made the Steam Deck the emulation machine of choice.


----------



## throAU

Huntn said:


> Without a doubt, PCs are better suited for gaming. Developers are actively developing for PC/Consoles. The Mac OS at best is an afterthought.
> 
> That said, Macs for all serious computing, generally speaking they are more trouble free, more user friendly, at least in my experience. My PC is a better gaming machine, but I find myself cursing it semi-regularly, so there is a price to be paid.




I game on all three.


PC for simulations primarily
PS5 for arcade type games
Mac/iOS for casual stuff

All 3 platforms have a healthy game library; a lot of the PCMR types will say that Apple and gaming is not a thing, but it depends on what type of games you want.

I really think that apple will take off as a gaming platform when their VR headset arrives. I spend probably 30-40% of my gaming time now with the Quest 2, and the only reason for that is because its the only decent standalone device.  As soon as there's a reasonable non-facebook alternative i'm on it...


All that said.

If you haven't tried gaming on an iPad with a controller - there's a decent amount of stuff that supports controllers now.

Its a reasonable gaming platform, and with the supply issues with the current consoles, etc. I'm surprised its not more popular.


----------



## throAU

Oh, also.

Apple Silicon is going to help gaming on mac massively.

You can actually run games on a Macbook now without going nuts with the fan noise.

Portables are the bulk of Apple's Mac sales - now they don't suck so bad for running 3d workloads in terms of noise, i think they'll be a lot more practical for gaming moving forward.


----------



## DT

$59 Borderlands 3, currently free from Epic  




			https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/p/borderlands-3
		


And it's even available for both Windows and macOS!


----------



## Huntn

From another thread:


DT said:


> An M1 Pro or M1 Max machine?  Hell yes.
> 
> (The "integrated graphics" aren't what you're thinking of in the older Intel context))




If you don’t mind, anyone educate me on Apple’s integrated graphics. I’m actually in a quandary about my next Mac purchase if there is one…I’ve got a 2016 MBP which is mostly useless for gaming and struggles working with Unreal Engine so I don’t, just take notes, surf, pay bills and manage images. Yes I‘ve always preferred the MacOS as a comfortable environment, and I just tolerate Windows because of gaming, and currently educating myself with UE.

For my next  laptop update, I could update to  $1999 14” MBP and face the same struggles that have always existed with gaming on a Mac or spend $800 (under a thousand) ASUS laptop and abandon the comfort of the MacOS and associated programs I use that are Mac only.

Now keep in mind, I used to travel frequently for work, and there was a time I was willing to pay $2400 for a MBR that ran Bootcamp, and a played most games (that I wanted to play) in a passable manner, (no not great or in some cases not  good) but it was not that often I ran into this. For example ARK: Survival Evolved was close to being a slide show in 2016.

Also I have a home built PC laptop, built in 2013, upgraded in 2019, which for 99% of the time, fulfills both my gaming and working in Unreal Engine (building gaming environments) needs. I do like the MacOS, when I’m on vacation really I should have better things to do than play on my computer.. I might just say the hell with it, and go with a lesser MBP. But then it chaffs my butt that I have to spend $2000 to get 3 thunderbolt ports instead of 2 ($1200). My reference goes back to my 2012 MBP that had a dedicated graphics card and cost $2400.

Thoughts?



			https://www.bestbuy.com/site/asus-tuf-gaming-17-3-laptop-intel-core-i5-8gb-memory-nvidia-geforce-rtx-3050-ti-512gb-ssd-eclipse-grey/6485599.p?skuId=6485599
		










						14-inch MacBook Pro - Space Gray
					

Now with Magic Keyboard on all models, fast Intel Core i5 and i7 processors, and ultrafast Thunderbolt ports, MacBook Pro does more than ever. Buy online now.



					www.apple.com
				









						ASUS TUF Gaming F17 (2021) vs Apple MacBook Pro 16 (2021): which is better? | NR
					

We put the ASUS TUF Gaming F17 (2021) to the test against the Apple MacBook Pro 16 (2021) to find out which laptop is  best for you.




					nanoreview.net


----------



## DT

@Huntn

Integrated chipset graphics used to mean extremely low performance, not intended for gaming, really just for general purpose computing.   When you wanted fast graphics performance, you went with a discrete GPU, like you're familiar on your Windows machine, or like the more recent Intel iMac, the Mac Pro, MBPs, using AMD/Radeon discrete GPUs.

Otherwise this is the sort of performance you experience:











Those two bottom Minis are using UDH 630 which are pretty low iGPU (integrated), but even at double or triple that performance they're way behind discrete GPU powered machines.

With the M series / Apple Silicon SOCs, you've got "integrated graphics" in the sort of "packaging" sense, but they're performing like pretty stout discrete GPU setups - but a really important point:  discrete GPUs are very power hungry and generate a ton of heat, but with the M1 GPUs, you've got outstanding performance and lower power, lower heat.  In a notebook, that can be really critical.

It also depends on the specific use case, which libraries are being used, what graphics API, etc., but if you're just looking for a solid gaming experience vs. the cost, without factoring in:  battery life, build materials, warranty/service channels, display quality, sound, even more subjective things like OS, trackpad feel - then it's really going to be hard to beat the FPS/$ ratio of a mid-ranged Windows machine.

It's also hard to say X Apple vs. Y Windows GPU performance, but I know people have taken a general SWAG at this, and tend to put an M1 Pro GPU (depending on exact flavor) like between a 3050 and 3060, but that's very -ish 

BTW, this MSI machine:



			https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B091GGZT1S/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_8
		


Occasionally drops to $10xx, which is a pretty good bang-for-the-buck, it's an i7 / 16GB / 3060 in a slimmer chassis.

I've been occasionally shopping a Winders™ machine, and per a previous post, and I'll definitely go with an AMD Ryzen, probably the 9 (over an Intel option).

FWIW, this is the machine I configured, it's a Lenovo Legion Slim 7 Gen 6 AMD (15"):







With 3 year Premier service including full accidental damage coverage.


----------



## Colstan

Another tidbit from WWDC, if you can tolerate five minutes of Gruber, Craig and Joz address gaming on the Mac. While not mentioning anything new that wasn't announced already, it's clear that Apple is high on the graphics potential of their "great gaming machines" and this is "an unprecedented time for gaming on the Mac". While we've seen Apple make a play for gaming before, they seem to be putting more effort into this, rather than just having an Electronic Arts executive on stage to announce a handful of half-assed token ports like they did at WWDC 2007.

In the past, Apple's executives always seemed coy about discussing gaming, perhaps giving the impression that they don't care about that market. From the tone and breadth of the Metal 3 and gaming presentation at WWDC, and the vigor with which Craig discusses the issue with Gruber, it feels like something has changed. @Cmaier has mentioned that he knows for a fact that Apple is making a hard push into gaming, and now that's coming straight from Apple's executive team.


----------



## Cmaier

Colstan said:


> Another tidbit from WWDC, if you can tolerate five minutes of Gruber, Craig and Joz address gaming on the Mac. While not mentioning anything new that wasn't announced already, it's clear that Apple is high on the graphics potential of their "great gaming machines" and this is "an unprecedented time for gaming on the Mac". While we've seen Apple make a play for gaming before, they seem to be putting more effort into this, rather than just having an Electronic Arts executive on stage to announce a handful of half-assed token ports like they did at WWDC 2007.
> 
> In the past, Apple's executives always seemed coy about discussing gaming, perhaps giving the impression that they don't care about that market. From the tone and breadth of the Metal 3 and gaming presentation at WWDC, and the vigor with which Craig discusses the issue with Gruber, it feels like something has changed. @Cmaier has mentioned that he knows for a fact that Apple is making a hard push into gaming, and now that's coming straight from Apple's executive team.



My goal is to drop just enough inside information that MR has to start reporting on me after having banned me


----------



## Renzatic

Cmaier said:


> My goal is to drop just enough inside information that MR has to start reporting on me after having banned me




Godspeed, sir. I can think of no worthier goal.


----------



## DT

Another great looking game, $39.99, currently free at Epic:



			https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/p/shadow-tactics


----------



## DT

My current run of Epic freebies


----------



## DT

Finally did the often discussed, but never actually followed-through, connect-the-PC-to-the-TV 

I have an extra long HDMI cable on one of the inputs, really nothing to it, de-docked from my desk, plugged into the TV, pretty much done.  Fired up the Epic Games launcher and had perfect XBOX controller input, stellar graphics, and the sound from the Sonos setup was awesome, and at times, super spooky     Didn't bother with the power supply at first, figured we'd be done (it was sort of late) before it crapped out, got really engaged and wound up grabbing the supply, might get another one I can leave in the TV room - it works on both the proprietary "high power /performance" PS (it's big ...), or USB-C, but I don't know that the latter supports enough power when it's in full tilt game mode.

We played (see horror games thread)


----------



## DT

Oh, last night after I moved the machine back to the desk,  I reconnected the XBOX to the network, I didn't realize it was offline, downloaded a big update (~4GB), but I also downloaded the XBOX Wireless Display app, it's basically a screen mirror/casting app for a Windows client, fired that up, Windows+K on the notebook and there was the XBOX, connected and wow, the refresh is very good.  I fired up the same game, the controller was able to connect to the notebook and it looked very close to physically connecting it, so that might be even a simpler solution - will experiment with this more.


----------



## Huntn

These days I’m strictly PC for gaming, and iOS when nothing else is available. The only time my Xbox  gets turned on is for Grandkids. We played Borderlands on Xbox which was a lot of fun.


----------

