# So what makes me a racist/white supremacist?



## Herdfan

Ok, not sure what I am setting myself up for here, but I'm going to do it anyway.

So what have I said, posted, done that makes some of you think I am a racist or white supremacist?

I will take the White Supremacist part first.  In my mind, a WS is simply someone who thinks whites are better than other races.  It's really not any more complicated than that.  By that definition, I do not believe I am.

Now the racist side is a bit more complicated because although I don't see myself as a WS, I do have certain opinions that could be interpreted as racist.  For example, I think a black girl sitting on her uncles lap when a stray bullet comes through the window and kills her is a bigger tragedy than a thug with a rap sheet being shot by a white cop.  Notice I didn't say the person getting shot by a cop wasn't a tragedy, just not as big of one as the little girl.  In my mind.

So have at.   But try and keep it constructive because if there are things I say or post that I might not be aware of, perhaps I can learn.

One note: Saying I am racist because I supported Trump is not a valid reason for the purposes of this thread.


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## B S Magnet

Herdfan said:


> Ok, not sure what I am setting myself up for here, but I'm going to do it anyway.




Nah. You gotta figure this one out on your own, pumpkin. Deep, continuous soul searching and all that. Seek the pyramid.

You want B-1 called, but I’m not playing.





_“Is that there a __hierarchy of bias__? By golly jeepers, I do reckon it is!”_


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## Alli

It’s not the beliefs, it’s the actions. Or in this case, the support for actions that are blatantly racist. If you’re not vocally against them (for instance the voter suppression laws in certain southern states, then you are exhibiting support for racism. Support for racists is worse cause it suggests you know better.


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## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Ok, not sure what I am setting myself up for here, but I'm going to do it anyway.
> 
> So what have I said, posted, done that makes some of you think I am a racist or white supremacist?
> 
> I will take the White Supremacist part first.  In my mind, a WS is simply someone who thinks whites are better than other races.  It's really not any more complicated than that.  By that definition, I do not believe I am.
> 
> Now the racist side is a bit more complicated because although I don't see myself as a WS, I do have certain opinions that could be interpreted as racist.  For example, I think a black girl sitting on her uncles lap when a stray bullet comes through the window and kills her is a bigger tragedy than a thug with a rap sheet being shot by a white cop.  Notice I didn't say the person getting shot by a cop wasn't a tragedy, just not as big of one as the little girl.  In my mind.
> 
> So have at.   But try and keep it constructive because if there are things I say or post that I might not be aware of, perhaps I can learn.
> 
> One note: Saying I am racist because I supported Trump is not a valid reason for the purposes of this thread.



Just a few questions:

First of all, do you only apply the word "thug" to a black person? 
Was the "thug" with a rap sheet pulled over for not using a blinker or walking down the street in a hoodie, in so justifying his murder, even when unarmed?
Were you more outraged that a black person looted a Target than you were the murder of George Floyd?
The little girl who died of gang/driveby violence doesn't pull at your heartstrings, she's simply being used to make a political point here, lest you can show us where you've empathized about the plight of poor and underserved minorities. A WS? Maybe not, but certainly racist to a degree.


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## User.168

.


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## B S Magnet

Y’all have fun with him.


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## mac_in_tosh

Herdfan said:


> One note: Saying I am racist because I supported Trump is not a valid reason for the purposes of this thread.



It's one thing for someone to be conservative, support limited government, lower taxes, etc. But if someone supported Trump, that to me is a line crossed in the sand. If you can't understand that Trump is a compulsive liar, lazy and ignorant, a narcissist, a con artist, a mean and vindictive person who has set the country into a crisis with his big lie about how he really won the election by a landslide, who lied about the pandemic and started a culture war against wearing masks that resulted in much unnecessary suffering and who actively encouraged and enjoyed watching an actual assault on our government, then sorry, but to me you are beyond being reasoned with.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

The other day I kind of realized there’s some poetic justice to the white guilt/supremacy spotlight being flung around. It’s now white people who have to prove they are “one of the good ones”. As much as that sucks, it’s 100 times more manageable than what minorities have had to experience for the majority of this country’s history and what they continue to experience. For the most part white people can still freely roam the streets without fear of being judged or having a confrontation unless they bring it on themselves. I don’t think I can say the same for minorities, even for “the good ones”.


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## dukebound85

Herdfan said:


> One note: Saying I am racist because I supported Trump is not a valid reason for the purposes of this thread.



Ha whatever you say. 

It's more than a valid reason at this point.


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## Herdfan

Eric said:


> Just a few questions:
> 
> First of all, do you only apply the word "thug" to a black person?
> Was the "thug" with a rap sheet pulled over for not using a blinker or walking down the street in a hoodie, in so justifying his murder, even when unarmed?
> Were you more outraged that a black person looted a Target than you were the murder of George Floyd?
> The little girl who died of gang/driveby violence doesn't pull at your heartstrings, she's simply being used to make a political point here, lest you can show us where you've empathized about the plight of poor and underserved minorities. A WS? Maybe not, but certainly racist to a degree.




No.  There were very few Black people where I grew up.  Thug was used to describe anyone who basically had a record and was still doing things to keep adding to said record.

I don't think it matters.  The current narrative seems to be that any time a white cop shoots a black male, it is not justified.  No matter the circumstances.

No.  Floyd should not have died the way he did.  That was wrong.  

As the father of someone who was once a little girl and who coached little girls soccer and softball, it absolutely bothers me that a little girl was killed.  It should bother everyone.



theSeb said:


> No, sorry. That's not how this forum, or the real world, works. You must be thinking of some other magical place full of unicorns and make believe.




The reason I put that in the post was because Trump got (depending on the source and analytics) somewhere between 8-12% of the Black vote and increased his share by 2-4%.  Are all these Blacks racist?


mac_in_tosh said:


> It's one thing for someone to be conservative, support limited government, lower taxes, etc. But if someone supported Trump, that to me is a line crossed in the sand. If you can't understand that Trump is a compulsive liar, lazy and ignorant, a narcissist, a con artist, a mean and vindictive person who has set the country into a crisis with his big lie about how he really won the election by a landslide, who lied about the pandemic and started a culture war against wearing masks that resulted in much unnecessary suffering and who actively encouraged and enjoyed watching an actual assault on our government, then sorry, but to me you are beyond being reasoned with.




See my answer above.


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## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Are all these Blacks racist?



They might be. Do you not believe that non-whites can be racist? White Christians do not have the market on racism.


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## Joe

Herdfan said:


> One note: Saying I am racist because I supported Trump is not a valid reason for the purposes of this thread.




Racism wasn't a deal breaker for you. 

Do you still support him after 1/6?


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## Herdfan

Alli said:


> They might be. Do you not believe that non-whites can be racist? White Christians do not have the market on racism.




Sure they can be.  But not against their own race, at least not in those numbers.


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## Joe

I'm glad we can post things without fear of getting banned for petty stuff lol


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## Herdfan

JagRunner said:


> Racism wasn't a deal breaker for you.
> 
> Do you still support him after 1/6?




No.  He needs to go away now.  He served his purpose which was keeping Hillary out.


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## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Sure they can be.  But not against their own race, at least not in those numbers.



Why not?


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## JayMysteri0

Alli said:


> Why not?



I think someone is starting to show how little they know of other people.

Someone needs to talk to some Africans, Brazilians, Cubans, and a few Asian cultures.


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## SuperMatt

It is indisputable that outcomes for black people in America are worse than for white people overall.

What will one do or say going forward that makes life better for black people? I think that’s a lot more important than whether the motley crew here thinks one is a <insert label here>.

Outcomes matter. As for feelings, may I suggest:


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## lizkat

B S Magnet said:


> Y’all have fun with him.



Yeah because lost me at the last line of the original post.



Herdfan said:


> One note: Saying I am racist because I supported Trump is not a valid reason for the purposes of this thread.




Buried the lede and pitched a smorgasbord of sidebar discussions,  Fortunately off-topic in TA is a sometime thing.   But, I'll pass.


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## B S Magnet

JayMysteri0 said:


> I think someone is starting to show how little they know of other people.
> 
> Someone needs to talk to some Africans, Brazilians, Cubans, and a few Asian cultures.




Yeah, a whole lotta colourism going on in the Caribbean, whole lotta anti-Black racism toward Black Dominicans, Cubans, and so on.


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## B S Magnet

Herdfan said:


> No.  He needs to go away now.  He served his purpose which was keeping Hillary out.




“…ok but I only voted for the National Socialists the _first _time because fuck Heinrich [Brüning], that doesn’t make me a Nazi…”


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> No.  He needs to go away now.  He served his purpose which was keeping Hillary out.




At this point he's serving a different purpose, to remind people what they will most likely be in for if they don't vote Democrat.  Ironically he's become the Hillary of the right.


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## JayMysteri0

B S Magnet said:


> Yeah, a whole lotta colourism going on in the Caribbean, whole lotta anti-Black racism toward Black Dominicans, Cubans, and so on.



I just remember dating someone Cuban & them telling me what some of their family said about others who would fall under the old "Hispanic" umbrella.  Kind of eye opening.  Followed by Brazil's history with racism based on darkness & lightness of one's skin.

It becomes a nice deflection to worry about the racism of others, but the important point to remember is the historical significance & continued impact of racism here that was done intentionally.  Some will want to worry about the racism others may have, but that racism wasn't in such large numbers that it kept them from getting homes & possibly starting generational wealth.  ALL of that group faced that racism collectively, suffered for it, and continue to suffer for it.  Which then bleeds into that group of people having to live in intentionally zoned areas for the poor, that makes for a haven for crime because of lack of opportunities & proper funding as their counterpart areas.

I've said it before.  It's always telling when people selectively choose what they claim is a concern.  As if White or Brown children aren't shot in neighborhoods or suffer the effects of their surroundings.  It's always someplace else where ONLY that one aspect ( _small children being sho_t ) as opposed to the many other concerns ( _substandard housing, substandard schools, polluted drinking water, little to no public transportation_ ) because it shows what the concern is really about.  It's NEVER about the actual people.  It's about railing on a talking point to justify demonizing or scape goating a group.  It's literally about as disgustingly crass as you can get, because it's using the suffering of others with no concern on what to do & showing one's indifference for others, but just as a talking point to counter some criticism or hope it derails a conversation.


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## mac_in_tosh

Herdfan said:


> No.  He needs to go away now.  He served his purpose which was keeping Hillary out.



So you voted for Trump - the guy fined for a phoney charity and a phoney "university." The guy who cheated on taxes and loan applications as well as on each of his three wives. The guy who led  an unsuccessful trade war (based on the idea that it's China who pays the tariffs), who didn't build a wall that Mexico paid for and who didn't provide "beautiful" heath care. The guy who compromised relations with our European allies and who cozied up to Putin and Kim. I already mentioned the disastrous handling of the pandemic and the incitement to insurrection.

Yeah, so fortunate for the U.S. that "nasty woman" Crooked Hillary didn't become president.


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## User.191

Just as an aside, and without actually addressing the topic, I think it's great that not only can @Herdfan ask this question (that would have quite possibly had issues on MR leading to moderated posts etc.), but we can respond openly without worrying if we're treading on eggshells.

Let's be honest, @Herdfan at least has the balls to face us here on potentially unfriendly ground.


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## B S Magnet

MissNomer said:


> Just as an aside, and without actually addressing the topic, I think it's great that not only can @Herdfan ask this question (that would have quite possibly had issues on MR leading to moderated posts etc.), but we can respond openly without worrying if we're treading on eggshells.
> 
> Let's be honest, @Herdfan at least has the balls to face us here on potentially unfriendly ground.




The real courage we won’t see comes with the self-reflection and private commitment to materially dismantle the anti-Black and anti-BIPOC racism living deep inside his own head and deep inside his assorted communities.

[EDIT to add:  from y’all]


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## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> No.  He needs to go away now.  He served his purpose which was keeping Hillary out.




I'm not exactly a huge fan of Hillary's, but hell, what would she have done to equate to this crazy ass bullshit fuckityness that Trump's left us with?


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## Edd

Renzatic said:


> I'm not exactly a huge fan of Hillary's, but hell, what would she have done to equate to this crazy ass bullshit fuckityness that Trump's left us with?



Nothing even close. Villainizing her was a triumph of right wing media. Different from Trump in every way, especially competence.


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## Deleted member 199

JayMysteri0 said:


> Followed by Brazil's history with racism based on darkness & lightness of one's skin.



Thais have this obsession with light/pale skin. My wife’s cousin routinely asks her own daughter “why are you so black” (yes they use the term black, referring to the colour).

but that’s not even the most fucked up. It’s extremely common for actors/actresses here to be mixed race, usually Thai x European (ie white) so they’re usually quite light skinned. Anyway if one of these actresses (it always seems to be a woman) has to portray someone “poor” in a show they whip out the brown face.

but there’s also common stereotypes ethnic Chinese here believe about ethnic Thais, and vice versa.

It’s honestly hard to really grasp (on a personal level) for me - I grew up in Australia; it’s still not _fantastic_ in the more ass backwards country areas but the intra-racial stuff is really hard to grasp - even in Europe there’s the obvious issues between “whites” of different ethnicities.

I guess the only corollary for me would be, you know, everyone hates gingers. /s


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## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> So what have I said, posted, done that makes some of you think I am a racist or white supremacist?



PRSI has been deleted, so that makes it kind of difficult to discuss prior posts accurately. If you did make racist posts there, your slate is washed clean, so you don’t need to seek absolution here.

I will point out something about your OP that strikes me as odd. Why discuss your feelings on hypothetical situations, when you could tell us your feelings on actual situations? Surely there are some actual police killings that you could discuss, as well as discussing the aftermath of such killings. To me, that seems like a far more honest conversation, if that is what you are seeking.


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## User.45

Stephen.R said:


> Thais have this obsession with light/pale skin. My wife’s cousin routinely asks her own daughter “why are you so black” (yes they use the term black, referring to the colour).
> 
> but that’s not even the most fucked up. It’s extremely common for actors/actresses here to be mixed race, usually Thai x European (ie white) so they’re usually quite light skinned. Anyway if one of these actresses (it always seems to be a woman) has to portray someone “poor” in a show they whip out the brown face.
> 
> but there’s also common stereotypes ethnic Chinese here believe about ethnic Thais, and vice versa.
> 
> It’s honestly hard to really grasp (on a personal level) for me - I grew up in Australia; it’s still not _fantastic_ in the more ass backwards country areas but the intra-racial stuff is really hard to grasp - even in Europe there’s the obvious issues between “whites” of different ethnicities.
> 
> I guess the only corollary for me would be, you know, everyone hates gingers. /s



My understanding is that in east asia lighter skin has been associated with "higher" class because of less sun exposure. Silly beauty standards if you ask me. Honestly, on a family trip to Hawaii had I realized how awesomely tan people with japanese heritage can get (I was like 14) and that's when I realized how little screen time these people would traditionally get despite how gorgeous they looked by my perception. I've had a friend in medical school whose mother was Japanese and we shared some stories, like her mom telling her to stop tanning and how shocked she was about this. 



Herdfan said:


> So what have I said, posted, done that makes some of you think I am a racist or white supremacist?
> 
> I will take the White Supremacist part first.  In my mind, a WS is simply someone who thinks whites are better than other races.  It's really not any more complicated than that.  By that definition, I do not believe I am.
> 
> Now the racist side is a bit more complicated because although I don't see myself as a WS, I do have certain opinions that could be interpreted as racist.  For example, I think a black girl sitting on her uncles lap when a stray bullet comes through the window and kills her is a bigger tragedy than a thug with a rap sheet being shot by a white cop.  Notice I didn't say the person getting shot by a cop wasn't a tragedy, just not as big of one as the little girl.  In my mind.
> 
> So have at.   But try and keep it constructive because if there are things I say or post that I might not be aware of, perhaps I can learn.



@JayMysteri0 mentioned above, you support policies that really contribute to the issues of these very communities these girls (and boys) fall victim to gun crime, it's like cheering on dumping poison in the lake, but considering yourself an environmentalist because you are saddened by seeing dead fish.




Herdfan said:


> One note: Saying I am racist because I supported Trump is not a valid reason for the purposes of this thread.



Per Trump, I was born in a shithole country. Do you need more explanation? I'm not sure, since you as a descendant of "legal immigrants from Honduras visited that very place and it is a shithole". You've had a signature like this at MR. You've used this as a shield in the past to avoid being called racist, which is funny to me, but also sad. 

Also being a "proud flag waving, Trump voting, redneck" usually comes these very connotations you are asking us about. 

I'm glad you were willing to ask though. As @B S Magnet says though, reflection is what matters, and that's something not served outside your own skull cavity.


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## B S Magnet

SuperMatt said:


> PRSI has been deleted, so that makes it kind of difficult to discuss prior posts accurately. If you did make racist posts there, your slate is washed clean, so you don’t need to seek absolution here.
> 
> I will point out something about your OP that strikes me as odd. Why discuss your feelings on hypothetical situations, when you could tell us your feelings on actual situations? Surely there are some actual police killings that you could discuss, as well as discussing the aftermath of such killings. To me, that seems like a far more honest conversation, if that is what you are seeking.




Herdfan’s alter-ego from PRSI is *Susie the White Supremacist Soccer Mom*, who will of course vote for a white cis supremacist solely because a pretty small number of trans children might actually try out for athletics during their primary and/or secondary school years and, perish the thought, _might_ also be just one spot better than the lowest-ranking cis runner-up who didn’t make the cut for team/squad/prelims because, idk, they didn’t try as hard as the trans athlete did. 

_SS Mom (aka, Karen Cismanson): “My Becky didn’t make the lacrosse team because that tr***y pervert was selected as backup forward! I’m voting for Marg… Margj… oh whatever I’m voting for MTG and putting up my CRA flag!  I’m filming this and I’m gonna scream assault because you’re looking at me funny!”_


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## User.45

@Herdfan, I'll ask you this: which one is more bothersome to you, us considering you racist, or Ted Cruz? Just because when an Ivy League academic superstar says stupid shit like that isn't because they believe it, but because they think their voters would.


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## lizkat

B S Magnet said:


> The real courage we won’t see comes with the self-reflection and private commitment to materially dismantle the anti-Black and anti-BIPOC racism living deep inside his own head and deep inside his assorted communities.
> 
> [EDIT to add:  from y’all]




We don't know what is in someone's mind or heart, and online we certainly can't know what all people's actions do to support or belie their posts.


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## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> PRSI has been deleted, so that makes it kind of difficult to discuss prior posts accurately. If you did make racist posts there, your slate is washed clean, so you don’t need to seek absolution here.
> 
> I will point out something about your OP that strikes me as odd. Why discuss your feelings on hypothetical situations, when you could tell us your feelings on actual situations? Surely there are some actual police killings that you could discuss, as well as discussing the aftermath of such killings. To me, that seems like a far more honest conversation, if that is what you are seeking.




But unlike some posters here, at least by their screen name here, we (you and I plus Jay, Huntn, Eric, lizkat and a few more) have been going at each other for years.  So you can get away with more than someone who has seen fewer than a handful of my posts.

Give me a real situation and we can discuss it.


P_X said:


> Per Trump, I was born in a shithole country. Do you need more explanation? I'm not sure, since you as a descendant of "legal immigrants from Honduras visited that very place and it is a shithole". You've had a signature like this at MR. You've used this as a shield in the past to avoid being called racist, which is funny to me, but also sad.
> 
> Also being a "proud flag waving, Trump voting, redneck" usually comes these very connotations you are asking us about.
> 
> I'm glad you were willing to ask though. As @B S Magnet says though, reflection is what matters, and that's something not served outside your own skull cavity.




I was not born in a shithole country.  My father and grandfather were.    It IS a shithole.  I wasn't using it as a shield, but to simply point out I am not white.  

Hey, if I say something racist, call me out.  I have no problem with serious specific instances.  However, this:



B S Magnet said:


> The real courage we won’t see comes with the self-reflection and private commitment to materially dismantle the anti-Black and anti-BIPOC racism living deep inside his own head and deep inside his assorted communities.
> 
> [EDIT to add:  from y’all]




Serves no useful purpose and does nothing to further the discussion.


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## Herdfan

P_X said:


> @Herdfan, I'll ask you this: which one is more bothersome to you, us considering you racist, or Ted Cruz? Just because when an Ivy League academic superstar says stupid shit like that isn't because they believe it, but because they think their voters would.
> 
> View attachment 7197




Being called a racist.  Just because Cruz said it, doesn't make it not true.  In fact, it may very well be true, but no one on the left wants to actually look into his claims, it is easier to call him a racist.


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## Herdfan

B S Magnet said:


> Herdfan’s alter-ego from PRSI is *Susie the White Supremacist Soccer Mom*, who will of course vote for a white cis supremacist solely because a pretty small number of trans children might actually try out for athletics during their primary and/or secondary school years and, perish the thought, _might_ also be just one spot better than the lowest-ranking cis runner-up who didn’t make the cut for team/squad/prelims because, idk, they didn’t try as hard as the trans athlete did.
> 
> _SS Mom (aka, Karen Cismanson): “My Becky didn’t make the lacrosse team because that tr***y pervert was selected as backup forward! I’m voting for Marg… Margj… oh whatever I’m voting for MTG and putting up my CRA flag!  I’m filming this and I’m gonna scream assault because you’re looking at me funny!”_




First, I never said SSM was SWSSM.  I never mentioned her race or ethnicity.  If you think whites are the only ones who have an issue with biological boys competing against girls, then you need to come out of your parent's basement.  There are Black, Hispanic and Asian soccer moms just as there are Black, Hispanic and Asian "Karens".


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## Eric

Herdfan said:


> But unlike some posters here, at least by their screen name here, we (you and I plus Jay, Huntn, Eric, lizkat and a few more) have been going at each other for years.  So you can get away with more than someone who has seen fewer than a handful of my posts.



Just on this point, we have been here for nearly a year now and everyone has been (and will be) on a level playing field. IMO most of what was posted over at MR by either party never rose to the point of moderator interaction. We may not always agree but at least we're free to say it.


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## B S Magnet

Herdfan said:


> Serves no useful purpose and does nothing to further the discussion.




I disagree!


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## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> Being called a racist.  Just because Cruz said it, doesn't make it not true.  In fact, it may very well be true, but no one on the left wants to actually look into his claims, it is easier to call him a racist.




It's possible, but fairly unlikely that immigrants are responsible for the rise in Covid rates in Texas. We're not letting all that many people in, despite rumors to the contrary, and it's not like those who we do let in go straight for our malls and supermarkets.

Plus, we're seeing infections rise at roughly the same rate  in states that aren't anywhere near our southern border. So while the illegals may be a contributing factor in some certain circumstances, you'd be hard pressed to prove they're responsible for the vast majority thereof.


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## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> But unlike some posters here, at least by their screen name here, we (you and I plus Jay, Huntn, Eric, lizkat and a few more) have been going at each other for years. So you can get away with more than someone who has seen fewer than a handful of my posts.
> 
> Give me a real situation and we can discuss it.



I haven’t been active on PRSI for almost a year. Sorry, I don’t recall specific posts you made, and I don’t think it’s fair to base this discussion on my vague recollections.

As for a situation, I believe this is your thread. If you want to offer real situations, great. If you want to offer fiction, that’s fine too. If you want to respond to actual situations brought up by others, there are existing threads here about issues like police brutality. Participate in them if you’d like. I see no need to insert situations of my choosing into this thread for you to discuss when there are plenty out there already.


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## B S Magnet

Herdfan said:


> First, I never said SSM was SWSSM.  I never mentioned her race or ethnicity.  If you think whites are the only ones who have an issue with biological boys competing against girls, then you need to come out of your parent's basement.  There are Black, Hispanic and Asian soccer moms just as there are Black, Hispanic and Asian "Karens".




One need not be white to support structural whiteness. This is 101-level stuff:


> “_What appears to have some people confused is the way anti-racists differentiate between white people, on the one hand, and whiteness as a social, political, and cultural idea, on the other._” —Tim Wise




And yes, I call your strawman _Susie White Supremacist Soccer Mom_, because the relationship between whiteness, internalizing racial superiority, eugenics, misogynoir, and the eradication of trans and gay people (and by “eradication”, that wasn’t only from the public sphere) all arise from the same origin: to engineer a _doctrine of regulatory purity and control_ into public policy, law, and even vigilantism.

It’s not some lark coincidence that anti-racist education (i.e., critical race theory and decolonialism) and trans children are held up now as twin mortal “threats” to the security of a structural whiteness which has spent centuries running roughshod, uninterrogated and under-challenged, over the people that structure seeks to control, subjugate, and silence (with death, as it deems necessary).

Second, if you’re gonna show yourself with a straight face here and expect to be taken seriously, then you need to halt referring to trans girls as “““biological boys”””, especially when you’re not backing that up with anything better than cheap political rhetoric. That canard doesn’t work _unless_ you’re trying to openly vilify and endanger marginalized, vulnerable kids (such as the 8yo trans girl I just spent time with, along with her mum and her two older brothers, earlier this evening, before they all headed to the city swimming pool. And her big brothers do not put up with any transphobia directed at their little sister — which, mercifully, is extremely rare nowadays).

Because when you use loaded, scientifically rejected, and politicized language, that’s the _only_ impact the canard carries: it endangers trans children even further_. Unless,_ of course, that’s precisely what you’re aiming for. (If so, I wouldn’t be surprised.)



Herdfan said:


> But unlike some posters here, at least by their screen name here,




Try to be more direct next time. And here’s the genesis of my screen name.


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## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Being called a racist.  Just because Cruz said it, doesn't make it not true.  In fact, it may very well be true, but no one on the left wants to actually look into his claims, it is easier to call him a racist.



To me, this is a huge problem on the right. Many right-wingers are more upset about being called a racist than they are about real issues in the world… like 600,000 dead of COVID. Almost every death due to COVID today is preventable. And instead of Cruz telling people to get the vaccine, he falsely blames immigrants for the deaths.


----------



## Yoused

Herdfan said:


> The current narrative seems to be that any time a white cop shoots a black male, it is not justified. No matter the circumstances.




Ok, this here is where you are getting tagged as White-Wing. There are numerous cases of black persons earning their firefights, and many/most of those have not been treated as improper police behavior. Your suggestion here is either serious ignorance or straw-manning.


----------



## Deleted member 199

P_X said:


> My understanding is that in east asia lighter skin has been associated with "higher" class because of less sun exposure.



Yeah it’s the same here I believe - labourers work in the sun so they get darker; but then the logic isn’t quite the same here because they’re not necessarily pale from birth.

The daughter I was talking about is the same skin tone basically all over, regardless of whether it would normally be exposed to the sun, and she obviously doesn’t work outdoors, she’s a kid.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Being called a racist.  Just because Cruz said it, doesn't make it not true.  In fact, it may very well be true, but no one on the left wants to actually look into his claims, it is easier to call him a racist.



You see this is what I'm eluding to. Your response really reflects what Cruz is gunning for, 1) you assume it _might be_ true, 2) the left wing is biased against him. Cruz is fully aware that the primary issue they have in TX is them being the state with about the 35 lowest vaccination rate (~50%) yet COVID precautions aren't mandated or adhered to either. He has had a role in the development of such issues, and has responsibility in rendering TX vulnerable, yet he uses the old _nazi_ tactic (yes I said nazi) of distracting people like you by pointing at a scapegoat group. 



Herdfan said:


> I was not born in a shithole country.  My father and grandfather were.    It IS a shithole.  I wasn't using it as a shield, but to simply point out I am not white.



1) The USA has had serial responsibility in destabilizing countries like Honduras over the past centuries most recently in 2009
2) Destabilization is a prime motor of migration from these countries
3) You don't seem to grasp that calling a country shithole is like calling somebody's wife ugly or child dumb. 
4) It's a weird American thing that some white supremacists manage to be non-white



Herdfan said:


> If you think whites are the only ones who have an issue with_ biological boys competing against girls_, then you need to come out of your parent's basement.



Since you like anecdotes I'll give you anecdotes: when I was in elementary, the girl team consistently kicked my boy team's ass in dodge ball. CONSISTENTLY. I still remember the 3 times we won that fucking game and we played it 2-3 times a week for 4 years. There isn't much physical difference between boys and girls prepuberty...There is a lot of parents projecting here.


----------



## thekev

Herdfan said:


> Being called a racist.  Just because Cruz said it, doesn't make it not true.  In fact, it may very well be true, but no one on the left wants to actually look into his claims, it is easier to call him a racist.




Typically information should precede the claim. If you can find supporting evidence after the fact, but he didn't have it when he made that claim, then it was still an appeal to racism. You are supposed to have evidence before you make a bold claim, and in general, Twitter isn't a great way to do it. If I was going to make a claim like his, I would certainly want to make it known where I sourced this information rather than just call on others to figure it out for themselves.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Just because Cruz said it, doesn't make it not true. In fact, it may very well be true, but no one on the left wants to actually look into his claims, it is easier to call him a racist.



Wait, you think Ted Cruz can make any claim he wants, and you expect people “on the left” to ”look into” it?

I believe that the “Goya” thing was a secret plot to deprive liberals of beans (a great source of fiber), causing their health to
suffer so they’d die. Why doesn’t anybody on the right want to look into that? Or is it easier just to call me racist?

By the way, if Teddy is SO WORRIED about Mexicans giving us all deadly diseases, why did he fly to Cancun when his state had a power grid emergency that cost his constituents their lives?


----------



## B S Magnet

I am, uh, somewhat disappointed by the crickets here after having brought the citation references to the table and getting to the root of this discussion (that is: _what whiteness signifies, advances, and strives to control in others’ lives; its long history of doing so by repeating its own motions generationally; and how far whiteness’s tendrils overreach into other areas of vulnerable people’s lives which a restorative justice tries to confront and redress_) — rather than get bogged down by the superficial sideshows of the Ted Cruzes in solely U.S.-centric politics. That’s just leaves and branches.


----------



## SuperMatt

B S Magnet said:


> I am, uh, somewhat disappointed by the crickets here after having brought the citation references to the table and getting to the root of this discussion (that is: _what whiteness signifies, advances, and strives to control in others’ lives; its long history of doing so by repeating its own motions generationally; and how far whiteness’s tendrils overreach into other areas of vulnerable people’s lives which a restorative justice tries to confront and redress_) — rather than get bogged down by the superficial sideshows of the Ted Cruzes in solely U.S.-centric politics. That’s just leaves and branches.



Looks like the OP‘s journey of self-discovery turned out to be just a trip to the grocery store…


----------



## B S Magnet

SuperMatt said:


> Looks like the OP‘s journey of self-discovery turned out to be just a trip to the grocery store…




Unfortunately, I wasn’t referring to just Herdfan.


----------



## SuperMatt

B S Magnet said:


> Unfortunately, I wasn’t referring to just Herdfan.



In that case, I was reading something by MLK earlier this week which I then heard echoes of in a podcast with Ezra Klein talking to Ibram Kendi.

The racist systems that hurt black people actually hurt others as well.

MLK Jr. in an interview with Playboy magazine:



> The unemployed, poverty-stricken white man must be made to realize that he is in the very same boat with the Negro. Together, they could exert massive pressure on the Government to get jobs for all. Together, they could form a grand alliance. Together, they could merge all people for the good of all.




Ibram Kendi on the most recent episode of the Ezra Klein show:



> I think Donald Trump in particular was great, for the lack of a better term, at making particularly white working class, non-college educated men feel as if they were somebody in his eyes or they could be just like him or they were him in the way the slaveholder made those non-slaveholding whites believe that every laborer is a slaveholder. These types of conceptions that allowed people to imagine that if things stayed as they were, they could become a billionaire. If things stayed as they were, they could exploit people in the same way. As opposed to, if things stayed as they were, you’re going to struggle economically. You’re going to struggle in so many different ways.
> 
> But if I teach you the source of your struggles, are those immigrants or those Black people or those people of color who have taken away your jobs, and I’m trying to fight for you, then I’m going to imagine that you’re my messiah when, indeed, I’m the source of your struggles. And so it’s important for people to empirically show people how and why *certain policies are not just harming Black brown and indigenous people, as they are tremendously, but they’re also harming us all*.




Pitting poor white Americans against minorities is nothing new.


----------



## B S Magnet

SuperMatt said:


> The racist systems that hurt black people actually hurt others as well.




Correct. That’s _whiteness_.



SuperMatt said:


> Pitting poor white Americans against minorities is nothing new.




It isn’t just poor white Americans.


----------



## User.45

B S Magnet said:


> I am, uh, somewhat disappointed by the crickets here after having brought the citation references to the table and getting to the root of this discussion (that is: _what whiteness signifies, advances, and strives to control in others’ lives; its long history of doing so by repeating its own motions generationally; and how far whiteness’s tendrils overreach into other areas of vulnerable people’s lives which a restorative justice tries to confront and redress_) — rather than get bogged down by the superficial sideshows of the Ted Cruzes in solely U.S.-centric politics. That’s just leaves and branches.




You do make sure you elaborate on what you define as "whiteness" but the concept works differently in Eastern Europe compared to the US*, so I just don't like the universal use of the term, which is probably better described as structurally embedded colonialism.

*Just to emphasize that we could also de-westernize the conversation.


----------



## Alli

P_X said:


> so I just don't like the universal use of the term, which is probably better described as structurally embedded colonialism.



Which is why in addition to CRT we also have CWT and DCT (critical whiteness and decolonialization theories).


----------



## Huntn

B S Magnet said:


> Unfortunately, I wasn’t referring to just Herdfan.



Surely you could not be referencing me.   For a while, I was  distracted being beat about the head and shoulders at MRs.  I am white and frequently call out the over reach of whiteness however I also make allowances that this phenomena racism, is based on who holds the advantages in society, it could be any group, and in the US that has traditionally been whites. I can see other parts of the world where Muslims hold the upper hand which is not racism per say, but similarly prejudicial, I can easily imagine black racists who easily view all whites as evil. And we have seen slavery across the world perpetrated by multiple ethnic groups.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Looks like the OP‘s journey of self-discovery turned out to be just a trip to the grocery store…




No, just a lot to unpack here.


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> Ok, not sure what I am setting myself up for here, but I'm going to do it anyway.
> 
> So what have I said, posted, done that makes some of you think I am a racist or white supremacist?
> 
> I will take the White Supremacist part first.  In my mind, a WS is simply someone who thinks whites are better than other races.  It's really not any more complicated than that.  By that definition, I do not believe I am.
> 
> Now the racist side is a bit more complicated because although I don't see myself as a WS, I do have certain opinions that could be interpreted as racist.  For example, I think a black girl sitting on her uncles lap when a stray bullet comes through the window and kills her is a bigger tragedy than a thug with a rap sheet being shot by a white cop.  Notice I didn't say the person getting shot by a cop wasn't a tragedy, just not as big of one as the little girl.  In my mind.
> 
> So have at.   But try and keep it constructive because if there are things I say or post that I might not be aware of, perhaps I can learn.
> 
> One note: Saying I am racist because I supported Trump is not a valid reason for the purposes of this thread.



I did not answer the “_because I voted for Donald Trump you think I’m a racist_”.

I have no desire to beat you up because you are asking, but I do want to be informative. I’ll start off asking some questions for perspective. I’m not demanding you answer them, however they are a basis for a discussion. Heading to the pool will be back later. 


First and foremost Trump is a narrcacist and a sociopath, he may also be a racist. It’s hard to tell what exactly motivates him, racist policies, or appealing to racists for their vote (the nature of being a sociopath).
Then there is the debate, can you support racist policies and not be a racist?
Or can you support a racist politician and not be a racist yourself?
Can your sense of receiving self benefit cloud your vision regarding racist policies?
And is white entitlement real  (in the US, I can’t speak for Europe)  and does it cloud your perspective? It’s like sensing a level playing field that is actually tilted in your favor.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I don't know if this is reasonable or realistic, but perhaps we should clean slate those who came here from MR, strike their comments on MR from the record if they seem to be posting here in good faith.


----------



## Pumbaa

Writing things like this, perhaps?



Herdfan said:


> I don't believe Obama is Muslim.  I believe he could be a Muslim sympathizer.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I have a theory as to why some conservatives/Trump supporters get perceived as racist and why they are mad about it. I’m not talking about all put possibly a good percentage

Trickle up economic misery finally broke through the minority glass ceiling and started to impact a lot of white people. For a lot of them this is a new alien existence they are trying to navigate, or maybe even a miserable existence now worse.  At the same time the left swept in being hyper focused on racial injustice and pointing out the fact that many times it's at the hands of white people. This was a real one-two punch. So at the same time they’re experience economic hardship they are getting blasted by the media on how everybody except them has been abused, needs special treatment, and they (white people) should spend their free time meditating on guilt by association and at the very least don’t say shit about white people problems. You haven’t been excused from standing in the corner yet.

Or some shit.


----------



## Yoused

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> For a lot of them this is a new alien existence they are trying to navigate, or maybe even a miserable existence now worse. At the same time the left swept in being hyper focused on racial injustice and pointing out the fact that many times it's at the hands of white people.




The White-Wingers are also playing to this hand. You see, it is them minororities that are dragging you PWT down. Us super-smart wealthy dudes should be doing your decidin' for you, because those coloreds keep getting all kinda free stuff you be a-deservin'.

It seems to be working.


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> No.  He needs to go away now.  He served his purpose which was keeping Hillary out.



It was too huge a price to pay by any measurement you want to use. To imply that Trump was better for the country than Hillary, only works one possible way, that Trump made things so horrendous as to destroy the remnants of the GOP, but still it can be argued the price was huge, as the country could still go down hard.


----------



## Edd

Huntn said:


> It was too huge a price to pay by any measurement you want to use. To imply that Trump was better for the country than Hillary, only works one possible way, that Trump made things so horrendous as to destroy the remnants of the GOP, but still it can be argued the price was huge, as the country could still go down hard.



An old friend of mine voted for Trump the first time as a “fuck you” to the whole political machine. Almost positive he didn’t do that a second time. It was a dumb move and probably didn’t turn out as funny as he thought it would be.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Edd said:


> An old friend of mine voted for Trump the first time as a “fuck you” to the whole political machine. Almost positive he didn’t do that a second time. It was a dumb move and probably didn’t turn out as funny as he thought it would be.




Even though I loathed Trump and was quite astounded by how stupid he sounded - I never noticed it before, though he used to be better spoken - I still had a sliver of hope. He WAS an outsider. He was wealthy, even if he exaggerates his wealth. He was already famous and used to luxury. So I thought that would give him a valid platform to unite both sides by agreeing and disagreeing with each side of the aisle as he saw fit. “Screw you dems, we’re going to cut spending on welfare programs, but screw you republicans, we’re going to make up for it by investing in infrastructure, jobs and raising taxes on the rich to do it”.

Instead, he just got into office and became the most overtly racist, incapable piece of shit in several generations who rode an economic upswing and who‘s only big(ly) accomplishment was padding the pockets of the wealthy that much more. He failed on healthcare, he failed on infrastructure, and he even failed on immigration despite being a racist asshole to those seeking asylum. As dumb and racist as he was, he had a legit chance to be the most popular president in history. He blew it, and became the worst, one of the most vile pieces of shit ever to hold public office.

I‘m thoroughly convinced Trump appeals to two kinds of conservatives, of which there are many: the ones who are overtly racist and believe this is a fundamentally “white, Christian nation”, and those who are not racist to individuals, but have an immense lack of empathy and understanding for groups of people who don’t look like them. I know many folks like this - they would give the shirt off their back to anyone, be it white, black, Hispanic, gay, straight, trans or whatever. Yet they have an inability to understand how wrongs of the past have bled over to today (not just systemic racism, but other deep-rooted issues as well), or how their own lack of empathy and understanding effects others, even their own family members and children sometimes.. Trump speaks to both of those groups simultaneously. The overt racists know exactly what he means and love it, yet those who may not be inherently racist but lack empathy just hear a “no-nonsense guy” who validates their lack of empathy.

For them, Trump can refuse to denounce white supremacy over and over, but then throw out a “Yeah, sure, I denounce. BUT WHAT ABOUT BLM?!”, and that’s good enough of a “denouncement” for them.

Then there’s the media and disinformation online. People have far more echo chambers to retreat to than ever before, which reinforces their opinions even further.

There seems to be this phenomenon of decent people who refuse or fail to see how life for people of different colors isn’t the same as it is for them. Trump speaks to all of them.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> Even though I loathed Trump and was quite astounded by how stupid he sounded - I never noticed it before, though he used to be better spoken - I still had a sliver of hope. He WAS an outsider. He was wealthy, even if he exaggerates his wealth. He was already famous and used to luxury. So I thought that would give him a valid platform to unite both sides by agreeing and disagreeing with each side of the aisle as he saw fit. “Screw you dems, we’re going to cut spending on welfare programs, but screw you republicans, we’re going to make up for it by investing in infrastructure, jobs and raising taxes on the rich to do it”.



I agree and had similar hopes given he is not a conservative or liberal ideologue.  But two things happened, the Dems fought everything he suggested even if that same person had been for the idea a couple of years earlier.  Perhaps it was simply punishment for beating Hillary.  But on the other side, the GOP basically refused to push back on him, probably because he would attack them like an enemy.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> I agree and had similar hopes given he is not a conservative or liberal ideologue.  But two things happened, the Dems fought everything he suggested even if that same person had been for the idea a couple of years earlier.  Perhaps it was simply punishment for beating Hillary.  But on the other side, the GOP basically refused to push back on him, probably because he would attack them like an enemy.



Can you give an example of a bill he put forward/supported that the Dems rejected that they otherwise would have supported if suggested by somebody else?


----------



## GermanSuplex

theSeb said:


> I think this whole post was really well put, but I have specifically selected this part, because I believe that I am guilty of sometimes being this type of person, especially in my younger days. It takes a lot of willingness and retrospection to identify these kinds of flaws in your character.
> 
> I still struggle with understanding and coming to grips with empathy on a day to day basis, probably because of my psychological make-up, but I see the facts in what you mention and those are impossible to refute.




Nobody is perfect. My views about topics have also changed. I’ve always been sympathetic to the black struggle, because I’m half black myself and grew up around many black, white and mixed-race people. Yet I considered myself a “conservative” on issues like abortion and gay marriage. That was until the dog-whistling in the GOP became bullhorns. Watching Fox and their vitriol - even before Obama came along - and then watching them try to dismantle Obama’s character and achievements made me rethink my mindset. “If I feel, as a person of color, these folks don’t understand me, what is it that I don’t understand about the LGBTQ community or women who need to make the choice to terminate a pregnancy?”

It didn’t happen overnight. And I still have a lot to learn. Willingness is the key. I will admit, I do have a really, really tough time understanding those who don’t think systemic racism is a thing though. One thing I always do is ask people to point to me at what general time - such as a decade - the cultural and social landscape shifted so much that things “became equal for everyone”. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a response of any sort.

One thing I’d like to see are efforts by political leaders to get outside their echo chambers. I’d like to see Pelosi invite hardened Trumpers to a town hall. I’d like to see McConnell invite progressives to a town hall. I’d like to see someone moderate a gathering of police from around the country and BLM activists to a discussion to be televised. Politics is becoming increasingly a binary choice, and it’s killing us. It’s why the pandemic has dragged on so long. Pretty soon, liberals and conservatives will refuse to dine at the same fast food chains. I’m on a tangent, but yeah, we need more understanding. From everyone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Huntn

GermanSuplex said:


> Even though I loathed Trump and was quite astounded by how stupid he sounded - I never noticed it before, though he used to be better spoken - I still had a sliver of hope. He WAS an outsider. He was wealthy, even if he exaggerates his wealth. He was already famous and used to luxury. So I thought that would give him a valid platform to unite both sides by agreeing and disagreeing with each side of the aisle as he saw fit. “Screw you dems, we’re going to cut spending on welfare programs, but screw you republicans, we’re going to make up for it by investing in infrastructure, jobs and raising taxes on the rich to do it”.
> 
> Instead, he just got into office and became the most overtly racist, incapable piece of shit in several generations who rode an economic upswing and who‘s only big(ly) accomplishment was padding the pockets of the wealthy that much more. He failed on healthcare, he failed on infrastructure, and he even failed on immigration despite being a racist asshole to those seeking asylum. As dumb and racist as he was, he had a legit chance to be the most popular president in history. He blew it, and became the worst, one of the most vile pieces of shit ever to hold public office.
> 
> I‘m thoroughly convinced Trump appeals to two kinds of conservatives, of which there are many: the ones who are overtly racist and believe this is a fundamentally “white, Christian nation”, and those who are not racist to individuals, but have an immense lack of empathy and understanding for groups of people who don’t look like them. I know many folks like this - they would give the shirt off their back to anyone, be it white, black, Hispanic, gay, straight, trans or whatever. Yet they have an inability to understand how wrongs of the past have bled over to today (not just systemic racism, but other deep-rooted issues as well), or how their own lack of empathy and understanding effects others, even their own family members and children sometimes.. Trump speaks to both of those groups simultaneously. The overt racists know exactly what he means and love it, yet those who may not be inherently racist but lack empathy just hear a “no-nonsense guy” who validates their lack of empathy.
> 
> For them, Trump can refuse to denounce white supremacy over and over, but then throw out a “Yeah, sure, I denounce. BUT WHAT ABOUT BLM?!”, and that’s good enough of a “denouncement” for them.
> 
> Then there’s the media and disinformation online. People have far more echo chambers to retreat to than ever before, which reinforces their opinions even further.
> 
> There seems to be this phenomenon of decent people who refuse or fail to see how life for people of different colors isn’t the same as it is for them. Trump speaks to all of them.



Yes, Trump bought out the worst in us collectively and many of his hard core followers (note militaristic suedo militias, white supremecy groups, KKK, David Duke, etc loved this Anarchist) they live by equivalence because ultimately they want what they want and equivalence especially false equivalence is a damned fine smoke screen to keep STUPID and Racists onboard.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Can you give an example of a bill he put forward/supported that the Dems rejected that they otherwise would have supported if suggested by somebody else?




Border security/barrier.  Wall, fence, sniper nests (this is a joke).  Doesn't matter what you want to call it or what form it actually takes (wall or fence) but 90 Dems voted for it in 2006 but were dead set against it when Trump wanted to build one.

Here is a youtube clip of several prominent Dems saying they voted for the wall, then being against it.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Border security/barrier.  Wall, fence, sniper nests (this is a joke).  Doesn't matter what you want to call it or what form it actually takes (wall or fence) but 90 Dems voted for it in 2006 but were dead set against it when Trump wanted to build one.
> 
> Here is a youtube clip of several prominent Dems saying they voted for the wall, then being against it.



The proposal for a “wall” all the way along the southern border is exactly the same as a couple hundred miles of fencing in some areas... NOT. And his invocation of offensive, racist dogma as his justification for the “wall” made it impossible for anybody to support it without looking like a racist.

What a total and complete fuck-up of a human being he is. People didn’t oppose the wall “because Trump!” - they opposed it because he made it about racism and xenophobia, and made reasonable requests for fencing into “we need a huge 30 foot wall!” Just one more example of what a horrible president he was. Took something that wasn’t even controversial, expanded it into “3000 miles of 50-foot walls or NOTHING” and ended up having to steal money from the military (so much for supporting the troops, GOP) to half-build borders that didn’t do squat.

Worst president ever? Definitely in the top 5.


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> Border security/barrier.  Wall, fence, sniper nests (this is a joke).  Doesn't matter what you want to call it or what form it actually takes (wall or fence) but 90 Dems voted for it in 2006 but were dead set against it when Trump wanted to build one.
> 
> Here is a youtube clip of several prominent Dems saying they voted for the wall, then being against it.



The country was not clamoring for a 2000 mile wall when Trump showed up. This was just Trump mind games.


----------



## Runs For Fun

GermanSuplex said:


> Even though I loathed Trump and was quite astounded by how stupid he sounded - I never noticed it before, though he used to be better spoken - I still had a sliver of hope. He WAS an outsider. He was wealthy, even if he exaggerates his wealth. He was already famous and used to luxury. So I thought that would give him a valid platform to unite both sides by agreeing and disagreeing with each side of the aisle as he saw fit. “Screw you dems, we’re going to cut spending on welfare programs, but screw you republicans, we’re going to make up for it by investing in infrastructure, jobs and raising taxes on the rich to do it”.



This is what I thought Trump would do. Boy was I wrong.


----------



## Huntn

Huntn said:


> Yes, Trump bought out the worst in us collectively and many of his hard core followers (note militaristic suedo militias, white supremecy groups, KKK, David Duke, etc loved this Anarchist) they live by equivalence because ultimately they want what they want and equivalence especially false equivalence is a damned fine smoke screen to keep STUPID and Racists onboard.



One thing I’ll clarify about Trump, when I heard an early speech of his 2016, he sounded like he had potential. He was talking about foreign wars. But if you followed him, it soon became apparent (to me), this was a POS, poisonous, mentally ill, gold digger, and immoral, corrupt to boot, a sociopath.


----------



## SuperMatt

Huntn said:


> One thing I’ll clarify about Trump, when I heard an early speech of his 2016, he sounded like he had potential. He was talking about foreign wars. But if you followed him, it soon became apparent (to me), this was a POS, poisonous, mentally ill, gold digger, and immoral, corrupt to boot, a sociopath.



Trump’s terrible tendencies were there, in public, for everybody to see for decades. Younger people who didn’t see him in the tabloids constantly in the 80s and 90s or know about his failed businesses, divorces, affairs, racism, etc… I can get it. But then, very few young people voted for him. So I have to assume his voters knew about his BS and voted for him anyway…. And why? Because he was gonna build a wall to keep out Mexicans and ban all Muslims from America. His election was a racist backlash from people who were still seething at living under a black president for 8 years.


----------



## Huntn

SuperMatt said:


> Trump’s terrible tendencies were there, in public, for everybody to see for decades. Younger people who didn’t see him in the tabloids constantly in the 80s and 90s or know about his failed businesses, divorces, affairs, racism, etc… I can get it. But then, very few young people voted for him. So I have to assume his voters knew about his BS and voted for him anyway…. And why? Because he was gonna build a wall to keep out Mexicans and ban all Muslims from America. His election was a racist backlash from people who were still seething at living under a black president for 8 years.



Will vote for this POS before electing a Democrat.


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> I agree and had similar hopes given he is not a conservative or liberal ideologue.  But two things happened, the Dems fought everything he suggested even if that same person had been for the idea a couple of years earlier.  Perhaps it was simply punishment for beating Hillary.  But on the other side, the GOP basically refused to push back on him, probably because he would attack them like an enemy.



You have a habit of ignoring some particularly heinous aspects of this anti-Democratic POS.  Much of the stuff he suggested was poison including poisoning the environment, eliminating a multitude regulations and stuffing the Federal Govt with every corrupt crony he could find.

Not only that, but his attempt to over throw the election including if he had managed to turn the military (he tried) we would of had martial law and he’s still be the POS President.  

Now this has nothing to do with what makes someone a racist, except that racists, white Supremicists, and para-military _we think we are militias_ but are really wanna be war lords, flocked to this man. They smelled anarchy in the air, the type that let these particular people do what they cherish doing.


----------



## LIVEFRMNYC

Herdfan said:


> Ok, not sure what I am setting myself up for here, but I'm going to do it anyway.
> 
> So what have I said, posted, done that makes some of you think I am a racist or white supremacist?
> 
> I will take the White Supremacist part first.  In my mind, a WS is simply someone who thinks whites are better than other races.  It's really not any more complicated than that.  By that definition, I do not believe I am.
> 
> Now the racist side is a bit more complicated because although I don't see myself as a WS, I do have certain opinions that could be interpreted as racist.  For example, I think a black girl sitting on her uncles lap when a stray bullet comes through the window and kills her is a bigger tragedy than a thug with a rap sheet being shot by a white cop.  Notice I didn't say the person getting shot by a cop wasn't a tragedy, just not as big of one as the little girl.  In my mind.
> 
> So have at.   But try and keep it constructive because if there are things I say or post that I might not be aware of, perhaps I can learn.
> 
> One note: Saying I am racist because I supported Trump is not a valid reason for the purposes of this thread.




I haven't got a clue about the history behind your post.  But your post reminds me of of the type of people I had to explain something to plenty of times.  

Too many that racialize, love to defend themselves by saying racism in not in their heart.  I personally don't care what's in your heart or mind. If you practice the act of racializing, then you are a racist.  You can't get caught shoplifting and tell police to let you go cause shoplifting is not in your heart.  Nope, you're a shoplifter/thief.  

And as a black man, I'm not speaking on just whites, I'm speaking on anyone from any race that practices racism on others.  You are the actions you commit, not what you feel.



Now if you support Trump, knowing damn well he pandered to those who are racially bias, and is accused(damn near proven) of being racially biased himself.  Then why wouldn't others look at that as a reflection of who you are?   Can I worship Satan, and expect the world to view me as a good person?


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## Herdfan

LIVEFRMNYC said:


> Now if you support Trump, knowing damn well he pandered to those who are racially bias, and is accused(damn near proven) of being racially biased himself.  Then why wouldn't others look at that as a reflection of who you are?   Can I worship Satan, and expect the world to view me as a good person?




So what do you say to the 10-12% of Blacks that voted for Trump?  Depending on the research method, he GAINED support between '16 and '20.  The question is whether it was 2% or 4% or somewhere in between.

I see Biden as a much bigger racist than Trump.  He has said things that should make any African-American reevaluate their support.  

To quote Biden:

"I mean you, you got the first mainstream African-American who is  articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."

How is that not offensive to Blacks?  And why do they excuse it?






						Biden's description of Obama draws scrutiny - CNN.com
					

Sen. Joe Biden planned to spend Wednesday focusing on his official announcement that he was running for president, but the Delaware Democrat instead found himself defending remarks he made to the New York Observer about his Democratic opponents.



					www.cnn.com


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## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> So what do you say to the 10-12% of Blacks that voted for Trump?  Depending on the research method, he GAINED support between '16 and '20.  The question is whether it was 2% or 4% or somewhere in between.
> 
> I see Biden as a much bigger racist than Trump.  He has said things that should make any African-American reevaluate their support.
> 
> To quote Biden:
> 
> "I mean you, you got the first mainstream African-American who is  articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."
> 
> How is that not offensive to Blacks?  And why do they excuse it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biden's description of Obama draws scrutiny - CNN.com
> 
> 
> Sen. Joe Biden planned to spend Wednesday focusing on his official announcement that he was running for president, but the Delaware Democrat instead found himself defending remarks he made to the New York Observer about his Democratic opponents.
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com



Dear Lord....

Shithole countries, calling for a complete ban on muslims, calling white supremacists “very fine people,” asking a judge to recuse themselves because they are of Mexican descent, refusing to rent apartments to black people, asking for the death penalty for the Central Park 5, calling Mexicans rapists, telling people to beat and shoot BLM protesters, and on and on and on...

and don’t forget Obama’s birth certificate!

Claiming that Biden is more racist than Trump is complete and utter bullshit.


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## DT

Herdfan said:


> How is that not offensive to Blacks?  And why do they excuse it?




You know, it's funny ...

Back when that came up, none of my Black friends had any issue with it, and one very good friend who I had some extended conversation about it, said, none of his friends or family had any issues either.

In fact, like he pointed out at the time, the only people who seemed to be clutching their pearls over it, were right leaning white men ...


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## Edd

Herdfan said:


> I see Biden as a much bigger racist than Trump.


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## LIVEFRMNYC

Herdfan said:


> So what do you say to the 10-12% of Blacks that voted for Trump?  Depending on the research method, he GAINED support between '16 and '20.  The question is whether it was 2% or 4% or somewhere in between.




The rest of us blacks usually refer to them as truly ignorant, sellouts, or just straight up coons.  Depends on the person and their intentions. 




Herdfan said:


> I see Biden as a much bigger racist than Trump.  He has said things that should make any African-American reevaluate their support.
> 
> To quote Biden:
> 
> "I mean you, you got the first mainstream African-American who is  articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."
> 
> How is that not offensive to Blacks?  And why do they excuse it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biden's description of Obama draws scrutiny - CNN.com
> 
> 
> Sen. Joe Biden planned to spend Wednesday focusing on his official announcement that he was running for president, but the Delaware Democrat instead found himself defending remarks he made to the New York Observer about his Democratic opponents.
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com




A large portion of blacks (including myself) are no fans of Biden neither.  But we don't see him as more racist and radical as Trump.


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## Herdfan

LIVEFRMNYC said:


> The rest of us blacks usually refer to them as truly ignorant, sellouts, or just straight up coons.  Depends on the person and their intentions.




Could it simply be they had or got jobs under Trump?  Most people vote with their wallet no matter what the pollsters want you to think.


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