# So I got Covid 😒



## Runs For Fun

A week after Thanksgiving I came down with symptoms in what seemed like out of nowhere. I lost all sense of taste and smell within about 36 hours. Now I can't prove anything but it's highly likely I got it over Thanksgiving from my either my brother or someone in his entire unvaccinated family which includes young children which all but one I believe are old enough for the vaccine. My brother only got the vaccine very recently because he was forced to because of a mandate. Otherwise I'm sure he wouldn't have. Why this stupidity? Because Trump and all the fucking right wing disinformation. Him and my mom are huge Trumpets and have been completely brainwashed about the vaccine and Covid in general. Him, my SIL, and at least one of their kids got it along with me and my dad. This makes me beyond angry. The people that believe this disinformation don't seem to realize that this shit affects everyone around them and not just them. I'm boosted and still caught it, though pretty mild compared to how bad it can be. I still don't feel 100% and my taste is still fucked up. Get your heads out of Trump's ass and do the fucking responsible thing. Is it really worth risking your family's health?


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## Agent47

How crazy. Trump himself is vaccinated, as is Ivanka. Why are people doing this to themselves I wonder


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## SuperMatt

Runs For Fun said:


> A week after Thanksgiving I came down with symptoms in what seemed like out of nowhere. I lost all sense of taste and smell within about 36 hours. Now I can't prove anything but it's highly likely I got it over Thanksgiving from my either my brother or someone in his entire unvaccinated family which includes young children which all but one I believe are old enough for the vaccine. My brother only got the vaccine very recently because he was forced to because of a mandate. Otherwise I'm sure he wouldn't have. Why this stupidity? Because Trump and all the fucking right wing disinformation. Him and my mom are huge Trumpets and have been completely brainwashed about the vaccine and Covid in general. Him, my SIL, and at least one of their kids got it along with me and my dad. This makes me beyond angry. The people that believe this disinformation don't seem to realize that this shit affects everyone around them and not just them. I'm boosted and still caught it, though pretty mild compared to how bad it can be. I still don't feel 100% and my taste is still fucked up. Get your heads out of Trump's ass and do the fucking responsible thing. Is it really worth risking your family's health?



I wish you good health and a speedy recovery. I am sorry that you got a breakthrough infection.


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## Eric

Runs For Fun said:


> A week after Thanksgiving I came down with symptoms in what seemed like out of nowhere. I lost all sense of taste and smell within about 36 hours. Now I can't prove anything but it's highly likely I got it over Thanksgiving from my either my brother or someone in his entire unvaccinated family which includes young children which all but one I believe are old enough for the vaccine. My brother only got the vaccine very recently because he was forced to because of a mandate. Otherwise I'm sure he wouldn't have. Why this stupidity? Because Trump and all the fucking right wing disinformation. Him and my mom are huge Trumpets and have been completely brainwashed about the vaccine and Covid in general. Him, my SIL, and at least one of their kids got it along with me and my dad. This makes me beyond angry. The people that believe this disinformation don't seem to realize that this shit affects everyone around them and not just them. I'm boosted and still caught it, though pretty mild compared to how bad it can be. I still don't feel 100% and my taste is still fucked up. Get your heads out of Trump's ass and do the fucking responsible thing. Is it really worth risking your family's health?



Wow, sorry to hear this, hoping for a speedy recovery. My sister decided not to hold any holiday gatherings this year for this exact reason, we couldn't confirm everyone in the family was vaccinated and she just didn't want to go down that road.


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## Runs For Fun

Eric said:


> Wow, sorry to hear this, hoping for a speedy recovery. My sister decided not to hold any holiday gatherings this year for this exact reason, we couldn't confirm everyone in the family was vaccinated and she just didn't want to go down that road.



Yeah I probably should have been more careful too.


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## Alli

I’m so sorry to hear this. I hope you continue having only the mildest of symptoms and have a speedy recovery.


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## Agent47

SuperMatt said:


> I wish you good health and a speedy recovery. I am sorry that you got a breakthrough infection.



I second that. It‘s not a breakthrough infection though. The vaccine does not prevent catching the virus, it should actually prevent heavy/medium symptoms


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## Eric

Agent47 said:


> I second that. It‘s not a breakthrough infection though. The vaccine does not prevent catching the virus, it should actually prevent heavy/medium symptoms




I get what you are saying but technically it is a breakthrough, at least according to the CDC:


> The Possibility of COVID-19 after Vaccination: Breakthrough Infections​COVID-19 vaccines are effective at preventing infection, serious illness, and death. Most people who get COVID-19 are unvaccinated. However, since vaccines are not 100% effective at preventing infection, some people who are fully vaccinated will still get COVID-19.
> 
> An infection of a fully vaccinated person is referred to as a “vaccine breakthrough infection.”












						COVID-19 Vaccination
					

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




					www.cdc.gov


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## Thomas Veil

Wow. I'm sorry to hear you're dealing with this. It's the kind of thing that would make me say I'm not associating with certain family members anymore.

At Thanksgiving _most_ of us were vaxxed, some were boostered, yet I was the only one who wore a mask--and for this very reason. I'm sure some thought I was being overly paranoid, but your experience shows I was not. It only takes prolonged exposure to _one_ person.

If you're really beside yourself with anger, perhaps a Facebook post? "Dear family, thank you for the wonderful time and for the Covid. You know who you are. I have it now. Hope you are the same."

Get better soon.


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## Roller

Runs For Fun said:


> A week after Thanksgiving I came down with symptoms in what seemed like out of nowhere. I lost all sense of taste and smell within about 36 hours. Now I can't prove anything but it's highly likely I got it over Thanksgiving from my either my brother or someone in his entire unvaccinated family which includes young children which all but one I believe are old enough for the vaccine. My brother only got the vaccine very recently because he was forced to because of a mandate. Otherwise I'm sure he wouldn't have. Why this stupidity? Because Trump and all the fucking right wing disinformation. Him and my mom are huge Trumpets and have been completely brainwashed about the vaccine and Covid in general. Him, my SIL, and at least one of their kids got it along with me and my dad. This makes me beyond angry. The people that believe this disinformation don't seem to realize that this shit affects everyone around them and not just them. I'm boosted and still caught it, though pretty mild compared to how bad it can be. I still don't feel 100% and my taste is still fucked up. Get your heads out of Trump's ass and do the fucking responsible thing. Is it really worth risking your family's health?



Sorry to hear this, but highly likely that you will do well. Please take care of yourself and do what's necessary to avoid infecting others in your circle.


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## Yoused

> *Runs For Fun*
> masochist​




Get better, we need your particular brand of masochism around here.


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## chengengaun

Sorry to hear that you caught Covid, but glad that it's mild - wishing you a speedy recovery.


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## Scepticalscribe

Very sorry to hear that you caught Covid; hope your symptoms remain mild and I wish you a speedy recovery.


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## Runs For Fun

Thanks all for the well wishes!  I'm slowly getting better, but it's pretty slow going. I can't imagine what it would be like getting Covid unvaccinated. I don't understand how people can think it's not a big deal. SMH


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## shadow puppet

Sending healing vibes and mojo.  I had it in January, before most were vaccinated and oddly, my case was also mild.  But still a PITA and scary.  I hope you're back to healthy as soon as possible.


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## Pumbaa

Runs For Fun said:


> Thanks all for the well wishes!  I'm slowly getting better, but it's pretty slow going. I can't imagine what it would be like getting Covid unvaccinated. I don't understand how people can think it's not a big deal. SMH



Attaching some additional well wishes just in case!


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## lizkat

^^  me too!    @Runs For Fun here are hopes for an accelerated recovery and good holidays.


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## Eric

Just got out of a remote meeting with my team and out of the 4 of us I'm the only one not currently infected, fortunately all mild as they're all vaccinated. This this thing is everywhere.


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## Joe

Yeah, this new variant is everywhere. Everyone I know is catching it. But they are having very mild symptoms because they are vaccinated.


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## lizkat

JagRunner said:


> Yeah, this new variant is everywhere. Everyone I know is catching it. But they are having very mild symptoms because they are vaccinated.




It's still annoying if you did all the recommended things including a booster but ended up having to miss part of the holidays or take time off work because of a variant infection. 

There's talk now of our having to adjust to a "new normal" of dealing flexibly with variants of this thing for some time, and just soldiering on through them,  rather than treating every widespread variant as a potential instance of LockDownAgain time.  

I get that, since it's clear there are limits on public willingness to observe lockdowns and reversions to full remote learning, etc.    No one understands yet though what the accommodations to lingering variants might amount to, and we don't know how long boosters will hold up. 

If we're lucky maybe it won't be worse than wondering "Gee should I take my umbrella today or not" and just tack into that checklist "..and a mask..."?


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## fischersd

lizkat said:


> It's still annoying if you did all the recommended things including a booster but ended up having to miss part of the holidays or take time off work because of a variant infection.
> 
> There's talk now of our having to adjust to a "new normal" of dealing flexibly with variants of this thing for some time, and just soldiering on through them,  rather than treating every widespread variant as a potential instance of LockDownAgain time.
> 
> I get that, since it's clear there are limits on public willingness to observe lockdowns and reversions to full remote learning, etc.    No one understands yet though what the accommodations to lingering variants might amount to, and we don't know how long boosters will hold up.
> 
> If we're lucky maybe it won't be worse than wondering "Gee should I take my umbrella today or not" and just tack into that checklist "..and a mask..."?



Yep, but the rub is - any areas where the fully vaccinated rate is not approaching 100% will still have a lot of severe symptoms and deaths.

NY Times says the US double-vaccination rate is still 62%?


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## lizkat

fischersd said:


> Yep, but the rub is - any areas where the fully vaccinated rate is not approaching 100% will still have a lot of severe symptoms and deaths.
> 
> NY Times says the US double-vaccination rate is still 62%?




Yah I think there are still a lot of states that have low vaccination rates even now.   My upstate county is experiencing a spike again, and it's not from college kids since the SUNY colleges in the region have applied assorted rules and protocols to minimize infection to extent possible,   it seems to be about locals who aren't vaccinated, and/or omicron behavior re vaccination break-through.   The politics here are conservative, however,  and our vax rate may reflect a lag related to that.

Or,  it's possible some of it is from an earlier lack of vaccines in rural areas, plus lack of public transport for seniors and then a lot of people just putting it on the back burner after initially spending time trying to get an appointment online in the early crush.   Many are elderly, they don't go out much, they don't have many people in and the people they do have in are vaccinated, so...   [so now yeah they're becoming omicron stats].

The thing is, now you can practically step out in the road and hold your arm out for a vaccination, so there's really no excuse not to have arranged for one if there's no medical reason to avoid it, and those are pretty rare.


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## User.45

fischersd said:


> Yep, but the rub is - any areas where the fully vaccinated rate is not approaching 100% will still have a lot of severe symptoms and deaths.
> 
> NY Times says the US double-vaccination rate is still 62%?



That's for the entire population. It's ~88% for people 65 and older. The big confounder is kids being unvaccinated. 
The hesitancy of people to vaccinate their kids is mind boggling though. 
My kids are too young to be eligible and I'll get them vaccinated the second they are eligible as my household's risk is much more affected by them being unvaccinated than my wife or I getting extra vaccine doses.


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## Thomas Veil

P_X said:


> The hesitancy of people to vaccinate their kids is mind boggling though.



My son in law is that way. He reads stuff about kids getting blood clots and he kinda closes off to the idea.


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## Eric

Thomas Veil said:


> My son in law is that way. He reads stuff about kids getting blood clots and he kinda closes off to the idea.



Right, it's not just Conservatives, there are many people who are are just afraid of it because of stuff like this as well. My friend and his mom got it, she died and he survived but he was nervous about it interacting with medication he was taking for a skin condition, even though the doctor told him it was safe. 

All we can do is try to educate people, blood clots are rare and when you factor in tens of millions of doses it's bound to coincide with other illnesses as well. One friend of mine in the medical field works with those who are hesitant and tries to convince them to call their doctor and take whatever advice they give for reassurance, she's had some success there.


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## Thomas Veil

Eric said:


> call their doctor



Always good advice, but I think people are hesitant right now ‘cause doctors are, well, kinda busy.


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## User.45

Eric said:


> Right, it's not just Conservatives, there are many people who are are just afraid of it because of stuff like this as well. My friend and his mom got it, she died and he survived but he was nervous about it interacting with medication he was taking for a skin condition, even though the doctor told him it was safe.
> 
> All we can do is try to educate people, blood clots are rare and when you factor in tens of millions of doses it's bound to coincide with other illnesses as well. One friend of mine in the medical field works with those who are hesitant and tries to convince them to call their doctor and take whatever advice they give for reassurance, she's had some success there.



It didn't take long to see that the side effect profile of vaccines is similar to the infection but many thousand times lower in likelihood and many times lower in severity if occurs at all. The pediatric trials took so much longer to finish is because 1) we first established safety in adults, 2) the safety requirements are much higher, and the lower risk/benefit ratios require larger sample sizes and/or longer surveillance. So once the data is established, it means that vaccinating a population is not only safe but effective "beyond the reasonable doubt".


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## AG_PhamD

Eric said:


> Right, it's not just Conservatives, there are many people who are are just afraid of it because of stuff like this as well. My friend and his mom got it, she died and he survived but he was nervous about it interacting with medication he was taking for a skin condition, even though the doctor told him it was safe.
> 
> All we can do is try to educate people, blood clots are rare and when you factor in tens of millions of doses it's bound to coincide with other illnesses as well. One friend of mine in the medical field works with those who are hesitant and tries to convince them to call their doctor and take whatever advice they give for reassurance, she's had some success there.




Agreed, there is a faction of the left very much into “natural medicine” that  is highly against vaccinations and pharmaceuticals in general. While I think right-wing make up a much larger segment overall at the moment, here in MA (a very liberal place), I do see probably almost as many liberal antivaxxers as I do conservative. Prior to COVID, some of the least vaccinated places in terms of children were wealthy, blue suburbs. 

There’s also a decently high level of resistance in the Black community. I attribute a lot of this to this media narrative that Black people should be afraid due to historic medical injustices against this population. While it’s absolutely true Black people have often been the uninformed subjects of totally unethical experimentation and there are numerous examples of this, the reality is they are not alone. Mentally ill, orphaned, and incarcerated individuals of all were also subjected to unethical experimentation, often without consent/knowledge. Americans of all races in the general population have been illegally and unknowingly experimented on in projects like MK Ultra as well as studies to judge the effects of direct plutonium exposure. Though probably the least unethical of unethical studies, in the 50’s there were government programs where stillborn babies’ and dead children’s tissue and bones were acquired without family knowledge to test for radioisotope exposure from nuclear tests. So the history of unethical human experimentation is pretty universal in American History. And that’s not to minimize the fact that often minorities, especially black, were targeted because of their reduced social standing. 

One of my worst experiences was an internship at a children’s hospital- the worst of the worst was a young boy with meningitis that likely would have never occurred had had his course of normal childhood vaccinations. As a result of the infection, this otherwise perfectly healthy boy received severe and permanent neurological damage, never to have a remotely normal life again. Very sad. 

In dealing with the COVID anti-vaxx crowd IRL I try to be as compassionate and persuasive as possible. Treating people negatively only creates resentment and further resistance. Listening to their concerns openly without judgement and responding is a must. When dealing with adults on the fence about the shot I find the best tactic is to remind them their risk of serious COVID complications or death is substantially higher than the extremely rare chance of a vaccine adverse reaction. I remind them almost 4 BILLLION people have been vaccinated. I ask them if they or someone they know have ever had long term side effects from a vaccine. Sometimes I remind them that in poorer parts of the world, people would do anything to be able to get vaccinated, accept the gifts you are given. 

Dealing with parents decision to vax their children is much more complicated. Even if they agree to vaccinate themselves, they won’t necessarily make the same decision for their child.


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## AG_PhamD

Runs For Fun said:


> A week after Thanksgiving I came down with symptoms in what seemed like out of nowhere. I lost all sense of taste and smell within about 36 hours. Now I can't prove anything but it's highly likely I got it over Thanksgiving from my either my brother or someone in his entire unvaccinated family which includes young children which all but one I believe are old enough for the vaccine. My brother only got the vaccine very recently because he was forced to because of a mandate. Otherwise I'm sure he wouldn't have. Why this stupidity? Because Trump and all the fucking right wing disinformation. Him and my mom are huge Trumpets and have been completely brainwashed about the vaccine and Covid in general. Him, my SIL, and at least one of their kids got it along with me and my dad. This makes me beyond angry. The people that believe this disinformation don't seem to realize that this shit affects everyone around them and not just them. I'm boosted and still caught it, though pretty mild compared to how bad it can be. I still don't feel 100% and my taste is still fucked up. Get your heads out of Trump's ass and do the fucking responsible thing. Is it really worth risking your family's health?




Sorry to hear you caught the COVID. The reality is you can do all the right things and still catch it.  

Most people I know with omicron are at least double vaccinated, many of them boosted. In fact, I know two people personally who are had COVID, are fully vaccinated + boosted, and caught COVID a second time. 

Vaccinated people can obviously catch it, as you have, and spread it. Considering how transmissible omicron is, it’s possible you could have potentially caught it anywhere. 

I haven’t seen a solid number on vaccine efficacy against infection, but I’ve seen numbers around 20%.

Somehow my wife and I have gone through this entire pandemic without having COVID, at least to our knowledge, despite both working in healthcare. I had a cold in late Dec 2019 but an antibody test some months later, which came back negative. I’ve basically been tested 2x a week since PCR tests became available. As healthcare providers we were some of the first to get vaccine, about a week before Christmas 2020. Lately, huge numbers of my coworkers have been out with COVID. It makes me think that the vaccine, at least in some people, does have some efficacy against omicron infection. I’ve always had a very good immune system though and rarely catch colds.


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## AG_PhamD

Eric said:


> Right, it's not just Conservatives, there are many people who are are just afraid of it because of stuff like this as well. My friend and his mom got it, she died and he survived but he was nervous about it interacting with medication he was taking for a skin condition, even though the doctor told him it was safe.
> 
> All we can do is try to educate people, blood clots are rare and when you factor in tens of millions of doses it's bound to coincide with other illnesses as well. One friend of mine in the medical field works with those who are hesitant and tries to convince them to call their doctor and take whatever advice they give for reassurance, she's had some success there.




The risk of blood clots as well as thrombocytopenia (low platelet count) exist with the vaccines. That said, the risk also exists with COVID infection.

For example, in a study of 30k people- some unvaccinated, some with Pfizer, some with AZ vax- the Pfizer vaccine resulted in ~140 ischemic strokes. Meanwhile, in the unvaccinated, there were 1700 strokes.

Whether it be clots, thrombocytopenia, myocarditis, the risk from infections is substantially greater from infection than vaccination.

I think this whole pandemic has highlighted the much of public’s lack of scientific and medical literacy. It’s a problem and these are the consequences.


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## SuperMatt

AG_PhamD said:


> There’s also a decently high level of resistance in the Black community. I attribute a lot of this to this media narrative that Black people should be afraid due to historic medical injustices against this population.



You think black people need ”the media” to remind them of racist medical experiments? These stories are passed down for generations.

Seriously, blaming the media for this is way off-base.

It’s also the same argument used by those banning books. “If we tell kids about racism in history, the white kids will feel guilty and the black kids will feel like victims!!!!”


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## User.45

AG_PhamD said:


> There’s also a decently high level of resistance in the Black community. I attribute a lot of this to this media narrative that Black people should be afraid due to historic medical injustices against this population.



Honestly, this statement is disturbing. You write a wordy paragraph to minimize the experiences of African Americans with unethical medical experiments that were built around a system that explicitly held the value of Black Lives below any other groups'. Did you ever do CITI training for research? Are those training courses part of the so called media narrative you're referring to? Just replace Blacks with Jewish people, the setting with holocaust and the region with Germany and Eastern Europe and you'll see what the issues are with the above line.


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## ronntaylor

AG_PhamD said:


> There’s also a decently high level of resistance in the Black community. I attribute a lot of this to this media narrative that Black people should be afraid due to historic medical injustices against this population.



JFC! You blame the media for a "historical" narrative, then mention  shit from the 50s. The mistreatment and often *non*-treatment of Black people continues to this day. There are stories on a regular basis. It impacts African Americans in urban and rural areas. It effect working class to the upper middle class and even wealthy African Americans. Hell, there were plenty of stories about Serena Williams -- one of the most visible athletes on the planet, as well as one of the highest paid -- being ignored  by medical staff and suffering as a result. Ain't nothing "historical" about that.


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## AG_PhamD

SuperMatt said:


> You think black people need ”the media” to remind them of racist medical experiments? These stories are passed down for generations.
> 
> Seriously, blaming the media for this is way off-base.
> 
> It’s also the same argument used by those banning books. “If we tell kids about racism in history, the white kids will feel guilty and the black kids will feel like victims!!!!”






P_X said:


> Honestly, this statement is disturbing. You write a wordy paragraph to minimize the experiences of African Americans with unethical medical experiments that were built around a system that explicitly held the value of Black Lives below any other groups'. Did you ever do CITI training for research. Are those training courses part of the so called media narrative you're referring to? Just replace Blacks with Jewish people, the setting with holocaust and the region with Germany and Eastern Europe and you'll see what the issues are with the above line.




My comment was not to insinuate black people are unaware of their own history in this country. Clearly they are. But most people seem to be totally unaware that ANYONE of low social status back in the day was a target for unethical experimentation (minorities + mentally ill, orphans, prisoners- regardless of race) and in quite a few cases the general public was fair game for the government, white people very much included.

For weeks-months the media’s explanation for low vaccination rates was pushed by a narrative of fear due to historic injustice when there are many other potential equally legitimate factors that don’t seem to be investigated/reported at the same time- such as geographical access, having the time to do so, information access, healthcare literacy, etc. Or maybe it’s the fact black people don’t trust the current healthcare system due to modern experiences with racism or bias.

In my opinion, much of the media subtly pushes this idea that in 2020 the healthcare system cannot be trusted to give to vaccines to minorities, which has the effect of making people more afraid to get vaccinated, putting their communities at higher risk of death. And to me that is unacceptable. Zero comment that the healthcare system has changed since the 1950’s and is striving to rid itself of ongoing discrepancies. Zero comment that Black people were not the only people experimented on back then. Zero effort to say “remember all these experimental atrocities you might be concerned about, this isn’t the case anymore, there are tons of barriers in place to prevent unethical experimentation today, you should feel safe you’re getting the same vaccine as anyone else”. Nothing about how the vaccine was tested against a representative population. Or what about the fact that this degree of vaccine hesitancy was unprecedented in the black community compared to other vaccines.

Not providing full context is misleading and is frankly dangerous and to the detriment of the Black community. That’s irresponsible reporting IMO.

Instead gist of most articles and reports were Black communities have low vaccination rates and that there’s mistrust in the healthcare system from things like Tuskegee trials, so hesitancy is in a sense understandable because of things that happened many decades ago. I find that suggestion totally off base in the 2020’s.

I have zero problem recognizing past and current injustices against the Black population. My problem is a one sided story that insinuates the idea that Black people should be weary of the vaccine because of things like Tuskegee.

(And that’s not to say there isn’t inequality in healthcare today between races- but its a very different situation than unethical experimentation. While there are definitely situations of racial bias, a lot the discrepancies in outcome IMO have to do socioeconomic affecting access to healthcare, the quality of that care, insurance coverage, etc- all serious problems in themselves).

And all of this was pre-empted by certain very high profile individuals saying the vaccine should not be trusted because of the president it was developed under. Any new drug should be treated with skepticism of course, but maybe wait for the data to review before you fear monger.

I am Jewish and had family members that were experimented on. But I don’t  mistrust the healthcare system today in Germany because of what happened in the 1940’s.

If you want a story of why to be concerned about the healthcare system, the FDA approval process and ties between officials and pharmaceutical companies frankly is a far more legitimate concern today.

What I find most interesting is that in speaking to many, many Black patients, despite all the media talk of unethical historic trials, that fear is NOT the reason these individuals are not vaccinated. It generally falls into either a lack of easy access to vaccines or *general mistrust of the healthcare system due to their own negative experiences in modern times* leading them to avoid healthcare whenever possible.


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## AG_PhamD

ronntaylor said:


> JFC! You blame the media for a "historical" narrative, then mention  shit from the 50s. The mistreatment and often *non*-treatment of Black people continues to this day. There are stories on a regular basis. It impacts African Americans in urban and rural areas. It effect working class to the upper middle class and even wealthy African Americans. Hell, there were plenty of stories about Serena Williams -- one of the most visible athletes on the planet, as well as one of the highest paid -- being ignored  by medical staff and suffering as a result. Ain't nothing "historical" about that.




As you’ll see in my post above, that is actually one of the more common problems- not things like Tuskegee. Now in 2021 with more objective reporting on COVID, you see some articles like this eluding to exactly what I said https://www.latimes.com/science/sto...expls-vaccine-hesitancy-among-black-americans
(If you have a paywall: https://www.kqed.org/news/11861810/...black-americans-question-the-covid-19-vaccine) 

My intention is not to offend the Black community. My goal is to get as many people vaccinated so that they don’t die. LISTENING to patients and Identifying the _real_ barriers is how you address the underlying problems. Not making presumptions about what they are probably thinking. 

Considering general mistrust is one of the leading issues, I think it’s important for healthcare professionals to acknowledge they may have had negative experiences in the past but we are here today to do everything we can for them. That’s the beginning of regaining trust.


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## User.45

AG_PhamD said:


> My comment was not to insinuate black people are unaware of their own history in this country. Clearly they are. But most people seem to be totally unaware that ANYONE of low social status back in the day was a target for unethical experimentation (minorities + mentally ill, orphans, prisoners- regardless of race) and in quite a few cases the general public was fair game for the government, white people very much included.



Your incoherence and lack of understanding of what racism means really bothers me. You're trying to dilute very specific experiences of a very specific group in a topic you brought up about this very specific group. Your reasoning here is that a culture of mistrust that stems from this group being historically *disproportionately targeted* by unethical experimentation is not justifiable, because "poor white people were experimented on too". Seriously?



AG_PhamD said:


> For weeks-months the media’s explanation for low vaccination rates was pushed by a narrative of fear due to historic injustice when there are many other potential equally legitimate factors that don’t seem to be investigated/reported at the same time- such as geographical access, having the time to do so, information access, healthcare literacy, etc.



Which media? You need to be much more specific here. You blame media but not the administration whose leadership spewed disinformation hindered the public trust in the CDC or the FDA. How does this make sense?


AG_PhamD said:


> Or maybe it’s the fact black people don’t trust the current healthcare system due to modern experiences with racism or bias.



...and cluelessly condescending White pharmacists.



AG_PhamD said:


> In my opinion, much of the media subtly pushes this idea that in 2020 the healthcare system cannot be trusted to give to vaccines to minorities, which has the effect of making people more afraid to get vaccinated, putting their communities at higher risk of death.



How come I picked up on a different narrative, where disparity research finally gets media attention... So you want problems solved by talking about them, but you don't want media to talk about them at the same time?!


AG_PhamD said:


> And to me that is unacceptable. Zero comment that the healthcare system has changed since the 1950’s and is striving to rid itself of ongoing discrepancies.



Striving is great, not achieving it is not.


AG_PhamD said:


> Zero comment that Black people were not the only people experimented on back then.



This is turning into a White Lives Matter sorta reasoning...


AG_PhamD said:


> Zero effort to say “remember all these experimental atrocities you might be concerned about, this isn’t the case anymore, there are tons of barriers in place to prevent unethical experimentation today, you should feel safe you’re getting the same vaccine as anyone else”. Nothing about how the vaccine was tested against a representative population. Or what about the fact that this degree of vaccine hesitancy was unprecedented in the black community compared to other vaccines.



How come you forget about concerted efforts of disinformation on social media?



AG_PhamD said:


> Not providing full context is misleading and is frankly dangerous and to the detriment of the Black community. That’s irresponsible reporting IMO.



Well, then how come you're missing the full context?


AG_PhamD said:


> Instead gist of most articles and reports were Black communities have low vaccination rates and that there’s mistrust in the healthcare system from things like Tuskegee trials, so hesitancy is in a sense understandable because of things that happened many decades ago. I find that suggestion totally off base in the 2020’s. I have zero problem recognizing past and current injustices against the Black population. My problem is a one sided story that insinuates the idea that Black people should be weary of the vaccine because of things like Tuskegee.



No it's not. Scientists bring up Tuskegee because that's what they learn about during their training. Black families bring their stories from the south, from the north and those stories include misdeeds and misperceptions from the recent past too. You're trying to tell me to take a participation trophy for pledging to reduce healthcare disparities, while using current disparities to override the relevance of the atrocities of the past?!


AG_PhamD said:


> And all of this was pre-empted by certain very high profile individuals saying the vaccine should not be trusted because of the president it was developed under. Any new drug should be treated with skepticism of course, but maybe wait for the data to review before you fear monger.



You need to name these very high profile individuals and quote the statements, because a specific set of statements were misrepresented by some person here and has been repeatedly debunked. 



AG_PhamD said:


> I am Jewish and had family members that were experimented on. But I don’t  mistrust the healthcare system today in Germany because of what happened in the 1940’s.



But you presumably would if Jewish people still had the level of outcome disparities in Germany, African Americans have in the USA. 



AG_PhamD said:


> If you want a story of why to be concerned about the healthcare system, the FDA approval process and ties between officials and pharmaceutical companies frankly is a far more legitimate concern today.



It's a far more legitimate concern to YOU as a White person. For African Americans it's much more concerning that good quality evidence often did not include them (us). I'll give you an example: the evidence on clot retrievers or extended thrombolytic windows in acute stroke treatment was established contained maybe 2% Blacks and studied Whites mainly. Now the difference is that these approaches work much better for embolic strokes more common in Whites, whereas Black patients usually have small vessel infarcts. Meaning, the risk benefit ratios differ for Blacks and when I consent a Black patient I only have inaccurate data. And then you're telling us that Oh, it's the bad experiences of the present. It's this. 


I'm not impressed.


----------



## Renzatic

AG_PhamD said:


> Agreed, there is a faction of the left very much into “natural medicine” that is highly against vaccinations and pharmaceuticals in general. While I think right-wing make up a much larger segment overall at the moment, here in MA (a very liberal place), I do see probably almost as many liberal antivaxxers as I do conservative. Prior to COVID, some of the least vaccinated places in terms of children were wealthy, blue suburbs.


----------



## SuperMatt

AG_PhamD said:


> What I find most interesting is that in speaking to many, many Black patients, despite all the media talk of unethical historic trials, that fear is NOT the reason these individuals are not vaccinated. It generally falls into either a lack of easy access to vaccines or *general mistrust of the healthcare system due to their own negative experiences in modern times* leading them to avoid healthcare whenever possible.



Then why did you blame the “media narrative”?


----------



## ronntaylor

AG_PhamD said:


> And all of this was pre-empted by certain very high profile individuals saying the vaccine should not be trusted because of the president it was developed under.



@P_X already addressed your other statements beautifully. But this is pure, unadulterated BS. You won't be able to pull up any quotes showing this unless you do a FOX-style hatchet job. The most perfect example is:



> "Well, I think that's going to be an issue for all of us. *I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump.* *And it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he's talking about.* I will not take his word for it. He wants us to inject bleach. I — no, I will not take his word."



Why would anyone trust Mango when he said that COVID-19 would disappear when it got warmer? When he suggested:



> "I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning?"




And then he added this polished turd:



> "So supposing we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it's ultraviolet or just a very powerful light — and I think you said that hasn't been checked because of the testing." ... "And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or some other way, and I think you said you're going to test that, too."




Dr. Birx was incredulous behind the moron and couldn't keep a straight face. He then went on to challenge the doctors that tried to show deference to the office by saying that that wasn't the kind of work that they're engaged in. He always has to have the last word: "Maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't work."

No, there is no question that he is a moron and any sane adult would question anything that he said about COVID-19.


----------



## Yoused

ronntaylor said:


> No, there is no question that he is a moron and any sane adult would question anything that he said about COVID-19.



The problem we have is that, although the country has plenty of sane adults (and young'uns), they inherently do not make nearly as much noise as the idiot minority.


----------



## User.45

Yoused said:


> The problem we have is that, although the country has plenty of sane adults (and young'uns), they inherently do not make nearly as much noise as the idiot minority.



Spot on.


----------



## AG_PhamD

Renzatic said:


> View attachment 10916





ronntaylor said:


> @P_X already addressed your other statements beautifully. But this is pure, unadulterated BS. You won't be able to pull up any quotes showing this unless you do a FOX-style hatchet job. The most perfect example is:
> 
> 
> Why would anyone trust Mango when he said that COVID-19 would disappear when it got warmer? When he suggested:
> 
> 
> 
> And then he added this polished turd:
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Birx was incredulous behind the moron and couldn't keep a straight face. He then went on to challenge the doctors that tried to show deference to the office by saying that that wasn't the kind of work that they're engaged in. He always has to have the last word: "Maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't work."
> 
> No, there is no question that he is a moron and any sane adult would question anything that he said about COVID-19.




I hate this discussions that are based on a false dichotomy. 

The President is not the FDA. S/he does not approve or deny drug applications for use. I see no reality where the FDA denies or doesn’t yet approve a drug, the the President steps in and says “no, actually it’s approved”, the courts do nothing to address the blatant overstepping of POTUS’s authority, the manufacturer just goes along with it churning out the drug knowing if there’s indeed a problem with it they will be held responsible (and the scale of damage from a catastrophic COVID vaccine would likely ruin them). Insurers, PBMs, hospital admins, major pharmacy wholesaler + chains, healthcare providers all accept the the word of scientifically illiterate buffoon who just usurped the FDA authority? The scenario where the President would be telling the public to get vaccinated but the medical/science community was not is so… preposterous I don’t even know why some would make that comment.  

No new drug is going anywhere without the input and approval of people that actually know what they’re talking about.  

But for the people who take things at face value, don’t understand the drug approval and marketing process, and blindly listen to leaders they put their trust in, it’s frankly a dangerous comment. 

And just because I criticize one side does not mean the other side isn’t worthy of criticism too. I watched that press conference live and told myself these are the ramblings of someone who knows nothing. 

Honestly, his verbal diarrhea about putting bleach and UV lights inside the body is probably one of the more benign instances of his spreading of nonsense as I think most people recognized what he was saying was beyond reasonable. Suggesting the virus was engineered, instigating the anti-mask movement, minimizing its severity, etc. He had press conferences where he would directly refute information provided by his own expert advisors. 

You can go back to MR and there are posts of me excoriating the stupidity of hydroxychloroquine interest based on garbage studies that if even a 5th read beyond the misleading abstracts and conclusions would realize is absolute nonsense- in some cases raising more concerns about the researchers COVID testing accuracy than anything related to therapeutics. 

What it comes down to is that nearly all politicians have zero medical training. They are not practitioners, they are no scientists, they are not epidemiologists or virologists. They should not be taken as the voice of authority on medical or epidemiological matters. Why anyone would listen to politicians over the appointed experts and experts in academia and healthcare is beyond me. 

Now that the Biden administration is in power it’s good to see most of the public health information being conveyed by public health officials who know what they’re talking about. 




Renzatic said:


> View attachment 10916




Very much true. It’s that phenomenon where people’s beliefs on either side are so far to the extreme they end up in effect sharing the same beliefs. 

My favorite of the second category was years ago. She announced she had decided to stop taking her lithium. I asked why. She told me she wants to only take natural medicines. It’s hard to get much more natural than lithium; an element. (Okay, technically the med is in a salt form, lithium carbonate, but that’s naturally occurring too).


----------



## Pumbaa

AG_PhamD said:


> But for the people who take things at face value, don’t understand the drug approval and marketing process, and blindly listen to leaders they put their trust in, it’s frankly a dangerous comment.



How do you feel about misrepresenting the comment/outright lying about it? Any danger in that for the people who take things at face value?


----------



## User.45

Pumbaa said:


> How do you feel about misrepresenting the comment/outright lying about it? Any danger in that for the people who take things at face value?



Ironically, I was hoping he wasn't referring to the comments by Harris, but it appears he indeed was. Even the above train of thought doesn't even jive with the history of the last 2 years, when Trump pressured the FDA commissioner to misrepresent convalescent plasma data on a press conference. Or Trump's well-documented efforts and public comments to influence the vaccine approval process. Missing half the story but demanding "full context" from others...


----------



## SuperMatt

AG_PhamD said:


> The scenario where the President would be telling the public to get vaccinated but the medical/science community was not is so… preposterous I don’t even know why some would make that comment.



Is it more or less preposterous than the President telling people to inject disinfectant, suggest some miracle cure involving shining bright lights, and telling people not to wear masks… in fact mocking those who did wear masks?

It seems like you weren’t paying close attention to Trump’s behavior in regards to the pandemic, nor to the fact that he was installing loyalists at almost every level of the government. Hell, he was calling Secretaries of State and telling them to “find votes” to help him win an election. You think he’d have a problem pressuring agencies, and firing those who refuse to release a vaccine before it was safe to? Really?

Preposterous would be oerhaps the BEST term to describe the entirety of Trump’s COVID-19 resoonse.


----------



## Huntn

AG_PhamD said:


> The risk of blood clots as well as thrombocytopenia (low platelet count) exist with the vaccines. That said, the risk also exists with COVID infection.
> 
> For example, in a study of 30k people- some unvaccinated, some with Pfizer, some with AZ vax- the Pfizer vaccine resulted in ~140 ischemic strokes. Meanwhile, in the unvaccinated, there were 1700 strokes.
> 
> Whether it be clots, thrombocytopenia, myocarditis, the risk from infections is substantially greater from infection than vaccination.
> 
> I think this whole pandemic has highlighted the much of public’s lack of scientific and medical literacy. It’s a problem and these are the consequences.



Welcome to the forum! 
_For example, in a study of 30k people- some unvaccinated, some with Pfizer, some with AZ vax- the Pfizer vaccine resulted in ~140 ischemic strokes. Meanwhile, in the unvaccinated, there were 1700 strokes._

I remember at one point some anti-vax argument that the vaccination was causing these strokes as a reason not be be vaccinated. I’m not familiar with stroke vs ischemic stroke. In your example you are saying that while  being vaccinated 140 suffered ischemic strokes, and unvaccinated suffered 1700 strokes. Are these strokes all COVID related or can you you have this kind of a stroke unrelated to COVID? In any case the as an anti-vax argument, I assume you consider  this a false argument? That statistically you are at lower overall risk by being vaccinated.

And maybe you will agree that most, much, or a substantial portion of the resistance to being vaccinated has to do with poison at the top of elected Federal leadership, inconsistent messaging, and the attempts to pretend that COVID was not worthy of concern which is precisely what The Head Shit did in early 2020?


----------



## User.45

Huntn said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> _For example, in a study of 30k people- some unvaccinated, some with Pfizer, some with AZ vax- the Pfizer vaccine resulted in ~140 ischemic strokes. Meanwhile, in the unvaccinated, there were 1700 strokes._
> 
> I remember at one point some anti-vax argument that the vaccination was causing these strokes as a reason not be be vaccinated. I’m not familiar with stroke vs ischemic stroke. In your example you are saying that while  being vaccinated 140 suffered ischemic strokes, and unvaccinated suffered 1700 strokes. Are these strokes all COVID related or can you you have this kind of a stroke unrelated to COVID? In any case the as an anti-vax argument, I assume you consider  this a false argument? That statistically you are at lower overall risk by being vaccinated.




Stroke = "brain attack": a clinical diagnosis of a sudden onset neurologic deficit, analogous to what people call a heart attack. 
Ischemic stroke: brain infract developing due to the loss of blood circulation to a vascular territory in the brain. Per definition this is no longer a clinical diagnosis as you have to have a test to prove the presence of the infarct (MRI by standard).
There are hemorrhagic strokes as alternative where the brain attack is caused by a bleed into the intracranial cavity. 

COVID causes increased tendency for blood clotting, thus increases risk for ischemic stroke (clots blocking brain arteries). Some vaccines like the AZD was associated with slight elevation in blood clotting tendencies. More than a 1000x less than the actual disease.


----------



## Runs For Fun

P_X said:


> Some vaccines like the AZD was associated with slight elevation in blood clotting tendencies. More than a 1000x less than the actual disease.



A key point all of the vaccine misinformation seems to ignore.


----------



## AG_PhamD

Huntn said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> _For example, in a study of 30k people- some unvaccinated, some with Pfizer, some with AZ vax- the Pfizer vaccine resulted in ~140 ischemic strokes. Meanwhile, in the unvaccinated, there were 1700 strokes._
> 
> I remember at one point some anti-vax argument that the vaccination was causing these strokes as a reason not be be vaccinated. I’m not familiar with stroke vs ischemic stroke. In your example you are saying that while  being vaccinated 140 suffered ischemic strokes, and unvaccinated suffered 1700 strokes. Are these strokes all COVID related or can you you have this kind of a stroke unrelated to COVID? In any case the as an anti-vax argument, I assume you consider  this a false argument? That statistically you are at lower overall risk by being vaccinated.
> 
> And maybe you will agree that most, much, or a substantial portion of the resistance to being vaccinated has to do with poison at the top of elected Federal leadership, inconsistent messaging, and the attempts to pretend that COVID was not worthy of concern which is precisely what The Head Shit did in early 2020?




Assuming the groups in the study were well matched, the number of strokes independent of vaccines and COVID would be similar. We know vaccines and COVID both cause clots.   But as you can see there is a huge difference in the prevalence. 

Ischemic strokes are those where clots block blood vessels partially or completely cutting off the blood flow. This is opposed to hemorrhagic strokes caused by bursting vessels. 

I think there a lot of reasons why people don’t get vaccinated. In some cases it’s due to a lack of trust, conspiracy theories, and some sort political grandstanding. With COVID and historically, some of the biggest factors are overconfidence in one’s health (if I get sick I’ll be fine or I never get sick), flawed risk assessments (the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease), a lack of appreciation for collective responsibility, and sometimes it’s just a lack of access.

Unfortunately, this isn’t really unique to vaccines either. There’s plenty of people who are diagnosed with conditions who refuse to take medicine reliably or at all. Compliance rates with diseases like hypertension and diabetes are around 50%. In fact, 20-30% of new prescriptions never get filled. Costs and other factors of course can be a factor here. But for a lot of people, they just don’t seem to value healthcare the way you’d expect.


----------



## Yoused

There is some indication that certain cannabinoids block the virus from binding to cells (interfere with the spike protein). These are the CBGA and CBDA compounds, which are the non-deoxycarbolated compounds, which means raw cannabis, the kind that does not mess with your head (doobs or happy candy will not work). The tests are apparently _in vitro_, so they cannot say for sure that it would actually work in the bloodstream.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## AG_PhamD

theSeb said:


> Even more preposterous is that he has publicly admitted that he had the booster shot after being fully vaccinated and has even called out fellow GOP politicians to be stop being wusses and publicly disclose their vaccination status. I am not even sure how a Trump supporter could be against vaccines at this point in time, unless they are complete imbeciles...
> 
> If the shoe fits, I guess.




Yeah, I don’t understand this phenomenon. Trump practically claims to have personally developed the vaccines, you’d think his fervent supporters would accept the vaccine for that reason. 

Prior to the pandemic you had two major types of anti-vaxxers- usually left wing people that only believe in natural medicine and organic food and far right members with extreme religious beliefs. 

Maybe it has to do with the phenomenon of fringe groups pushing both parties further in their respective directions. The most radical right push the idea you don’t need the vaccine and in order for the rest of the right to demonstrate their commitment to the party they get sucked into that belief. 

Maybe it’s as simple as because Biden is pushing the vaccine as good, so the Trump people must view it as bad. 

That said, people over age 50, especially 65+ have pretty high vaccination rates. It’s when you get under 49, especially under 40 is where the numbers start looking not so great- under 18 where things are really bad.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## AG_PhamD

theSeb said:


> If I were an aluminium foil hat wearing "philosopher", I would have suspicions that certain members of the GOP leadership believe that extending the pandemic may be beneficial to them in winning the mid terms and eventually the 2024 election.
> 
> I do believe that if it weren't for COVID, the US would be enjoying DJ Trump's second term in office.




I’m not sure I believe the lay people in the GOP would make that calculation, but indeed among the leadership that could be a possibility. That said, having your voters die doesn’t seem like the most well thought out strategy.  

I agree, without COVID Trump’s second term would be likely. It would be interesting to see what the vaccination rates would be like in that alternate reality.


----------



## SuperMatt

You’re both wrong on Trump in 2020. It’s possible if he handled COVID-19 like an adult who cared about his country instead of a toddler making everything worse, he could have won some independents over. But his approval was in the toilet *well* before the pandemic. The pandemic was his one chance to turn it around, and he failed more spectacularly than anybody thought possible.


----------



## Huntn

Yoused said:


> There is some indication that certain cannabinoids block the virus from binding to cells (interfere with the spike protein). These are the CBGA and CBDA compounds, which are the non-deoxycarbolated compounds, which means raw cannabis, the kind that does not mess with your head (doobs or happy candy will not work). The tests are apparently _in vitro_, so they cannot say for sure that it would actually work in the bloodstream.



Aren’t joints made with raw cannabis?


----------



## Huntn

AG_PhamD said:


> Yeah, I don’t understand this phenomenon. Trump practically claims to have personally developed the vaccines, you’d think his fervent supporters would accept the vaccine for that reason.
> 
> Prior to the pandemic you had two major types of anti-vaxxers- usually left wing people that only believe in natural medicine and organic food and far right members with extreme religious beliefs.
> 
> Maybe it has to do with the phenomenon of fringe groups pushing both parties further in their respective directions. The most radical right push the idea you don’t need the vaccine and in order for the rest of the right to demonstrate their commitment to the party they get sucked into that belief.
> 
> Maybe it’s as simple as because Biden is pushing the vaccine as good, so the Trump people must view it as bad.
> 
> That said, people over age 50, especially 65+ have pretty high vaccination rates. It’s when you get under 49, especially under 40 is where the numbers start looking not so great- under 18 where things are really bad.



I suspect that the ”natural medicine” group is much smaller than the Trump idiots who really don’t have a stand on medicine other than their masters steered them away from it with their manufactured political intrigue.



Typical Trump supporter and their political leadership
The sheep: _I  U!_​


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## SuperMatt

theSeb said:


> I see your points, but I still reckon he would have taken the election by a slim margin if there was no pandemic.



We will never know what would have happened, that’s true. I hope he either doesn’t run in 2024 or if he does run, that he loses.


----------



## ronntaylor

I hate suppositions. If Hillary had a better candidate Mango would have never held the presidency hostage. Hell, she would have beat an wholly inexperienced candidate with a funny sounding name in 2008.

The truth is that Mango was a horrible, clueless motherfucker that screwed up the response to an emerging Pandemic and ultimate lost bigly.


----------



## thekev

Renzatic said:


> View attachment 10916




Whole foods is too corporate for the second type. You're more likely to spot them at farmer's markets. Also most of those statements aren't technically wrong, just misleading (eg vaccines contain ingredients meant to produce an inflammatory reaction, by design).


----------



## Yoused

Huntn said:


> Aren’t joints made with raw cannabis?



They are, but then you burn them and the cannabis becomes not-raw. Heat causes deoxycarbolation, which turns the non-intoxicating THCA into intoxicating THC.


----------



## Huntn

Huntn said:


> I suspect that the ”natural medicine” group is much smaller than the Trump idiots who really don’t have a stand on medicine other than their masters steered them away from it with their manufactured political intrigue.
> 
> View attachment 10985
> Typical Trump supporter and their political leadership
> The sheep: _I  U!_​



I want to hear more about the liberals who reject man made medicine. Not implying they don’t exist. Found this:









						Beliefs about Childhood Vaccination in the United States: Political Ideology, False Consensus, and the Illusion of Uniqueness
					

Several contagious diseases were nearly eradicated through childhood vaccination, but some parents have decided in recent years not to fully vaccinate their children, raising new public health concerns. The question of whether and how beliefs about vaccination ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




_The Role of Political Ideology_​_It would appear that reluctance to vaccinate one’s children is connected to a number of specific beliefs that have circulated in popular culture [14]. In addition to various types of social pressures [15], receptivity to skeptical beliefs may be linked to underlying motivational orientations, such as distrust of scientific or governmental authorities as well as corporate actors, such as pharmaceutical companies and health insurance agencies. Taken in conjunction, these considerations suggest that certain motivated belief systems, such as religious [4] and political ideologies [16], may exaggerate—or, in other cases, attenuate—skepticism about the importance of vaccinating children._

Further evidence of problems with a certain politically oriented group having problems with vaccines, and no this is not a natural medicine, and yes this was because _we  don’t trust scientists_, but  they were pushing ingesting horse wormer instead of a scientific approved vaccibe made for… humans because  some half assed conservative suggested it?

 Now I am not claiming there are no “natural Medicine liberals” but I honestly suspect that until something can be shown contrary, that most of the “natural medicine believers” by a large margins woukd be conservatives based on the previous article.

Related:








						Trust in Medical Scientists Has Grown in U.S., but Mainly Among Democrats
					

About six-in-ten Americans believe social distancing measures are helping a lot to slow the spread of coronavirus in the nation.




					www.pewresearch.org


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> I hope he either doesn’t run in 2024 or if he does run, that he loses.




I'm convinced he'll run unless he's incapable of running.


----------



## DT

For some reason using the term 'joints' made me giggle.


----------



## Huntn

DT said:


> For some reason using the term 'joints' made me giggle.



If me, I’m kind of dated…


----------



## Huntn

Yoused said:


> They are, but then you burn them and the cannabis becomes not-raw. Heat causes deoxycarbolation, which turns the non-intoxicating THCA into intoxicating THC.



So what do they do for the brownies?


----------



## Huntn

theSeb said:


> Even more preposterous is that he has publicly admitted that he had the booster shot after being fully vaccinated and has even called out fellow GOP politicians to be stop being wusses and publicly disclose their vaccination status. I am not even sure how a Trump supporter could be against vaccines at this point in time, unless they are *complete imbeciles*...
> 
> If the shoe fits, I guess.



Bingo, this is pick and choose to the extreme, just be sure you support the Head POS Anarchist, because _he is the only mad man with his hair on fire that we got, no other right wing loser can sling shit like he can…_


----------



## Huntn

ronntaylor said:


> I hate suppositions. If Hillary had a better candidate Mango would have never held the presidency hostage. Hell, she would have beat an wholly inexperienced candidate with a funny sounding name in 2008.
> 
> The truth is that Mango was a horrible, clueless motherfucker that screwed up the response to an emerging Pandemic and ultimate lost bigly.



The country is not totally populated with Trump dummies. He let his lying/ manipulation get the better of him as if he can’t control those impulses.


----------



## Huntn

ronntaylor said:


> I hate suppositions. If Hillary had a better candidate Mango would have never held the presidency hostage. Hell, she would have beat an wholly inexperienced candidate with a funny sounding name in 2008.
> 
> The truth is that Mango was a horrible, clueless motherfucker that screwed up the response to an emerging Pandemic and ultimate lost bigly.



Ronn, I’m not used to hearing Jesus talk that way.


----------



## ronntaylor

Huntn said:


> Ronn, I’m not used to hearing Jesus talk that way.



It's Black "I ain't sure of that!" Jesus


----------



## Yoused

Huntn said:


> So what do they do for the brownies?



If you take a handful of raw weed, put it in a tightly* closed container and put it in the toaster oven at 250° for about an hour, you get stoneyweed. There is also a way to cook it in oil, which I think may be more complicated. So, with brownies, I believe you just put the raw weed into the batter and cooking it at baking temps does the job.


*if the container is not tightly closed, or you open it too soon after taking it out, you will think you are sharing your house with a family of skunks


----------



## AG_PhamD

Huntn said:


> I suspect that the ”natural medicine” group is much smaller than the Trump idiots who really don’t have a stand on medicine other than their masters steered them away from it with their manufactured political intrigue.
> 
> View attachment 10985
> Typical Trump supporter and their political leadership
> The sheep: _I  U!_​




I would say for adults currently it’s largely the right wing making up most of the unvaccinated. But prior to COVID the natural medicine people were much more prevalent with vaccines, but many of them have since changed their minds- at least for themselves with COVID. That’s why we were seeing outbreaks of things like Whooping cough in affluent blue neighborhoods among children. Not long ago children’s vaccination rates in wealthy LA neighborhoods were worse than South Sudan. There has always been the anti-vax right wing religious folks, but they’re usually a small faction. The natural medicine movement has really exploded in the past decade or so. Weirdly though, things have been turned upside down with COVID. 

It will be interesting to see what happens with children’s COVID vaccinations. Right now the rates aren’t so great. In the 5-11 age group, vaccines have been available for 2 months. Nationally only 17% are fully vaccinated, but varies widely- only 5% in Mississippi and 19% in California, but 48% in Vermont. In Canada, the rate is 2%. 

I find the whole natural medicine movement very annoying. It’s far often untrained people taking treatment into their own hands based on blog posts without any professional oversight. They don’t effectively treat their condition which then deteriorates putting them in a precarious position that could have likely been entirely avoided had they used evidence based medicine- as well as the massive hospital bill.


----------



## Runs For Fun

SuperMatt said:


> We will never know what would have happened, that’s true. I hope he either doesn’t run in 2024 or if he does run, that he loses.



All I can say is his handling of the pandemic is what really woke me up to what a terrible person he is all around. Yes I voted for him in 2016 and deeply regret that. The way he dealt with the pandemic was a total shit show. 


DT said:


> I'm convinced he'll run unless he's incapable of running.



Unfortunately I get the same feeling. I’ve heard some people say they don‘t think Biden would be able to beat him again. If that is the case I hope the Democrats can come up with a strong candidate. Another term of that oversized Cheeto would destroy this country.


----------



## AG_PhamD

Huntn said:


> I want to hear more about the liberals who reject man made medicine. Not implying they don’t exist. Found this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beliefs about Childhood Vaccination in the United States: Political Ideology, False Consensus, and the Illusion of Uniqueness
> 
> 
> Several contagious diseases were nearly eradicated through childhood vaccination, but some parents have decided in recent years not to fully vaccinate their children, raising new public health concerns. The question of whether and how beliefs about vaccination ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The Role of Political Ideology_​_It would appear that reluctance to vaccinate one’s children is connected to a number of specific beliefs that have circulated in popular culture [14]. In addition to various types of social pressures [15], receptivity to skeptical beliefs may be linked to underlying motivational orientations, such as distrust of scientific or governmental authorities as well as corporate actors, such as pharmaceutical companies and health insurance agencies. Taken in conjunction, these considerations suggest that certain motivated belief systems, such as religious [4] and political ideologies [16], may exaggerate—or, in other cases, attenuate—skepticism about the importance of vaccinating children._
> 
> Further evidence of problems with a certain politically oriented group having problems with vaccines, and no this is not a natural medicine, and yes this was because _we  don’t trust scientists_, but  they were pushing ingesting horse wormer instead of a scientific approved vaccibe made for… humans because  some half assed conservative suggested it?
> 
> Now I am not claiming there are no “natural Medicine liberals” but I honestly suspect that until something can be shown contrary, that most of the “natural medicine believers” by a large margins woukd be conservatives based on the previous article.
> 
> Related:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trust in Medical Scientists Has Grown in U.S., but Mainly Among Democrats
> 
> 
> About six-in-ten Americans believe social distancing measures are helping a lot to slow the spread of coronavirus in the nation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pewresearch.org




Here’s a good summary of it:








						Spreading Pseudoscience: 5 Reasons Why Some Liberals Are as Bad as Conservatives
					

The first step to solving problems is to identify and understand them. With that in mind, here is a list of five reasons why some liberals are just as bad, or at least almost, as creationism-believing conservatives when it comes to spreading pseudoscience.




					www.huffpost.com
				




And let’s not forget the Green Party endorsed homeopathy in 2016. Homeopathy by definition is pseudoscience.  

California had such dwindling vaccination rates by ~2014 they had to put laws in place to mandate vaccinations. After that vaccinations rebounded, but following that there was a huge increase in exemptions. 

That said, not all natural products are snake oils, but very few have evidence to support their use. Those that do work usually either require many doses per day, have more side effects,  interact with other drugs or health conditions, and/or are not as effective. 

That’s not to say every liberal believes in this stuff. Just like not every religious conservative believes solely depends on faith healing. The majority of Americans left and right believe in conventional, evidence based medicine. But you do have these factions on both ends of the spectrum that don’t. 

But there are unfortunately a lot of people who oppose pharmaceuticals in favor of natural products. Anyone who works in healthcare has to deal with these people.


----------



## SuperMatt

AG_PhamD said:


> Here’s a good summary of it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spreading Pseudoscience: 5 Reasons Why Some Liberals Are as Bad as Conservatives
> 
> 
> The first step to solving problems is to identify and understand them. With that in mind, here is a list of five reasons why some liberals are just as bad, or at least almost, as creationism-believing conservatives when it comes to spreading pseudoscience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And let’s not forget the Green Party endorsed homeopathy in 2016. Homeopathy by definition is pseudoscience.
> 
> That’s not to say every liberal believes in this stuff.



Do you know what percentage of the vote the Green Party got in 2020? 0.26% And for some reason you think you need to clarify that “not every liberal” believes it. Trying to impose the belief of a tiny, 1/4 of a percent party onto “not every liberal” vs a belief proudly and loudly held by millions in the Republican Party is absolutely ludicrous.

You whiffed so hard on this attempted “both sides” pitch that your *bat* went over the green monster in left field.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Do you know what percentage of the vote the Green Party got in 2020? 0.26% And for some reason you think you need to clarify that “not every liberal” believes it. Trying to impose the belief of a tiny, 1/4 of a percent party onto “not every liberal” vs a belief proudly and loudly held by millions in the Republican Party is absolutely ludicrous.
> 
> You whiffed so hard on this attempted “both sides” pitch that your *bat* went over the green monster in left field.



I generally like to give credit and understanding to both sides, but since Trump, we really reached an era where "bothsiding" is a clear fallacy.

2019: 




2021:



There was an attempt to blame black people. Interestingly, the risk factor adjusted COVID mortality rate of blacks is lower than that of whites. Well if we are playing the blame game... 










						5 facts about vaccines in the U.S.
					

Most Americans believe the health benefits of the MMR vaccine are high and the risks are low. Many favor school-based vaccine requirements.




					www.pewresearch.org
				












						10 facts about Americans and coronavirus vaccines
					

As the drive to inoculate more people continues, here are 10 facts about Americans and COVID-19 vaccines.




					www.pewresearch.org


----------



## Yoused

AG_PhamD said:


> And let’s not forget the Green Party endorsed homeopathy in 2016. Homeopathy by definition is pseudoscience. … That said, not all natural products are snake oils, but very few have evidence to support their use.



Homeopathy has absolutely no relationship to "natural medicine". The former is utter nonsense. The latter is poorly grounded but still has infinitely more merit than homeopathy, which has none — you might as well just pray.

I do have some issues with pharma, though. It _seems to_ take the position that this or that compound will fix anything, and doctors seem to be all too quick to prescribe the pill that pays them the most to promote it.


----------



## User.45

Yoused said:


> I do have some issues with pharma, though. It _seems to_ take the position that this or that compound will fix anything, and doctors seem to be all too quick to prescribe the pill that pays them the most to promote it.



Did I miss the money train somewhere. Never gotten kickbacks for prescribing anything. Maybe I'm doing something wrong...


----------



## Yoused

P_X said:


> Did I miss the money train somewhere. Never gotten kickbacks for prescribing anything. Maybe I'm doing something wrong...



Apparently so. I mean you could be some Turkish guy who makes truckloads of money selling "cures" on Oprah and so prominent that you might be running for US Senate in a state that you have only ever visited.

But here you are, hanging out with – _ugh_ – people. Gotta do something about your ethics, man. They are holding you back.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> Did I miss the money train somewhere. Never gotten kickbacks for prescribing anything. Maybe I'm doing something wrong...



It’s those opioids…









						Opioid Manufacturer Purdue Pharma Pleads Guilty to Fraud and Kickback Conspiracies
					

Opioid manufacturer Purdue Pharma LP (Purdue) pleaded guilty today in federal court in Newark, New Jersey, to conspiracies to defraud the United States and violate the anti-kickback statute.




					www.justice.gov
				






> Purdue also admitted it conspired to violate the federal Anti-Kickback Statute. Between June 2009 and March 2017, Purdue made payments to two doctors through Purdue’s doctor speaker program to induce those doctors to write more prescriptions of Purdue’s opioid products.  Also, from April 2016 through December 2016, Purdue made payments to Practice Fusion Inc., an electronic health records company, in exchange for referring, recommending, and arranging for the ordering of Purdue’s extended release opioid products – OxyContin, Butrans, and Hysingla.



And if you believe the admitted kickbacks are the only ones they paid out, well I’ve got some land in Florida to sell you…


----------



## User.45

Yoused said:


> Apparently so. I mean you could be some Turkish guy who makes truckloads of money selling "cures" on Oprah and so prominent that you might be running for US Senate in a state that you have only ever visited.
> 
> But here you are, hanging out with – _ugh_ – people. Gotta do something about your ethics, man. They are holding you back.



Ah! And I thought I did "Telemedicine" right..


SuperMatt said:


> It’s those opioids…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opioid Manufacturer Purdue Pharma Pleads Guilty to Fraud and Kickback Conspiracies
> 
> 
> Opioid manufacturer Purdue Pharma LP (Purdue) pleaded guilty today in federal court in Newark, New Jersey, to conspiracies to defraud the United States and violate the anti-kickback statute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.justice.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if you believe the admitted kickbacks are the only ones they paid out, well I’ve got some land in Florida to sell you…



Valid point. Though the vast majority of physicians who prescribed opiates didn't get kickbacks. The prime population was pain clinics.
In the mid 2010s the easiest way to get a rating of 1/5 on Vitals.com, or collect formal hospital complaints is not prescribing narcs.

I'll add that I prescribed maybe one or two opioid prescription in the past 4 years.***

***Outside the hospice setting.


----------



## Huntn

AG_PhamD said:


> I would say for adults currently it’s largely the right wing making up most of the unvaccinated. But prior to COVID the natural medicine people were much more prevalent with vaccines, but many of them have since changed their minds- at least for themselves with COVID. That’s why we were seeing outbreaks of things like Whooping cough in affluent blue neighborhoods among children. Not long ago children’s vaccination rates in wealthy LA neighborhoods were worse than South Sudan. There has always been the anti-vax right wing religious folks, but they’re usually a small faction. The natural medicine movement has really exploded in the past decade or so. Weirdly though, things have been turned upside down with COVID.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what happens with children’s COVID vaccinations. Right now the rates aren’t so great. In the 5-11 age group, vaccines have been available for 2 months. Nationally only 17% are fully vaccinated, but varies widely- only 5% in Mississippi and 19% in California, but 48% in Vermont. In Canada, the rate is 2%.
> 
> I find the whole natural medicine movement very annoying. It’s far often untrained people taking treatment into their own hands based on blog posts without any professional oversight. They don’t effectively treat their condition which then deteriorates putting them in a precarious position that could have likely been entirely avoided had they used evidence based medicine- as well as the massive hospital bill.



I wonder if it is really _trust only natural ingredients _which is a bit of a joke as they in many cases have the same basis, finding a chemical compound that that cures something, but the thing about vaccines is they prevent something. In some cases it strikes me as laziness, or ignorance, not being able to afford the doctor visit, distrust of doctors or gullibility.

The Trump Effect: _Why do I need a vaccination when I can take a horse worm medication bought at the farm supply store, or maybe drink a little bleach? _

With a substantial number of the Trump crew, instead of putting their trust into real medical authorities, they vested themselves in a big fat manipulator who felt that because COVID might hurt his Presidency, because of it’s effect on our economy,  kneejerked himself into accusations and denial, an ego so huge and maladjusted that he thought he could actually talk everyone in to just ignoring it.


----------



## Huntn

AG_PhamD said:


> Here’s a good summary of it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spreading Pseudoscience: 5 Reasons Why Some Liberals Are as Bad as Conservatives
> 
> 
> The first step to solving problems is to identify and understand them. With that in mind, here is a list of five reasons why some liberals are just as bad, or at least almost, as creationism-believing conservatives when it comes to spreading pseudoscience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And let’s not forget the Green Party endorsed homeopathy in 2016. Homeopathy by definition is pseudoscience.
> 
> California had such dwindling vaccination rates by ~2014 they had to put laws in place to mandate vaccinations. After that vaccinations rebounded, but following that there was a huge increase in exemptions.
> 
> That said, not all natural products are snake oils, but very few have evidence to support their use. Those that do work usually either require many doses per day, have more side effects,  interact with other drugs or health conditions, and/or are not as effective.
> 
> That’s not to say every liberal believes in this stuff. Just like not every religious conservative believes solely depends on faith healing. The majority of Americans left and right believe in conventional, evidence based medicine. But you do have these factions on both ends of the spectrum that don’t.
> 
> But there are unfortunately a lot of people who oppose pharmaceuticals in favor of natural products. Anyone who works in healthcare has to deal with these people.



There are some on the left, but you have to admit that it’s not a _they're both just as bad _argument_. _You’ve already said there are or you suspect there are a lot more on the Right, or those under Trump’s  orbit.


----------



## Renzatic

Huntn said:


> There are some on the left, but you have to admit that it’s not a _they're both just as bad _argument_. _You’ve already said there are or you suspect there are a lot more on the Right, or those under Trump’s  orbit.




It used to be something you'd see more of among suburban soccer moms in affluent neighborhoods. That's changed quite a bit since the pandemic arrived, and vaccines became yet another bullshit political battleground for the culture war.


----------



## Huntn

Yoused said:


> Homeopathy has absolutely no relationship to "natural medicine". The former is utter nonsense. The latter is poorly grounded but still has infinitely more merit than homeopathy, which has none — you might as well just pray.
> 
> I do have some issues with pharma, though. It _seems to_ take the position that this or that compound will fix anything, and doctors seem to be all too quick to prescribe the pill that pays them the most to promote it.



This is a topic which I am ignorant, but have an impression though popular culture  that at some point in human history there were sources of knowledge regarding plants and their ability to cure certain ailments such as natural antibiotics. I have no idea who I would trust today to have such knowledge, but COVID-19 seems to have brought the quacks out of the woodwork.


----------



## Renzatic

Huntn said:


> This is a topic which I am ignorant, but have an impression though popular culture  that at some point in human history there were sources of knowledge regarding plants and their ability to cure certain ailments such as natural antibiotics. I have no idea who I would trust today to have such knowledge, but COVID-19 seems to have brought the quacks out of the woodwork.




Just think of the homeopathy/anti-vax movement as what it is: 21st century snake oil marketing.


----------



## AG_PhamD

Huntn said:


> There are some on the left, but you have to admit that it’s not a _they're both just as bad _argument_. _You’ve already said there are or you suspect there are a lot more on the Right, or those under Trump’s  orbit.




Yes, I’ve said multiple times currently in terms of COVID, the right wing is the bigger problem… and not just the typical radical religious right wingers. I think the majority of the right wing refusing vaccines are doing it for non-religious reasons- it’s like some hill to die on (quite literally) about personal freedom that makes little sense. 

I’m not trying to make a political slight against the left or make some competition of who is more antivax. I’m just saying anti-vax people do actually exist and there’s a significant number of them out there. I’m not sure why I even have to prove this considering intuitively I’m sure you know they do. Going “all natural” has been incredibly trendy.

If you want to go back pre-pandemic though, before all this crazy partisanship around vaccines, I’d say the liberal crowd may have had an edge. For example:








						LA's Richest Neighborhoods Have Vaccination Rates Lower Than the Poorest Parts of Africa
					

Hollywood parents say not vaccinating makes "instinctive" sense. Now their kids have whooping cough.




					www.theatlantic.com
				











						After a Debacle, How California Became a Role Model on Measles (Published 2018)
					

Changing minds on vaccination is very difficult, but it isn’t so important when a law can change behavior.




					www.nytimes.com
				




Until California banned personal belief exemptions for vaccines, 36% of children were in a school below herd immunity. Some schools were 80% and below. The ban largely rectified the problem, however medical exemptions magically spiked 400%, most commonly in the schools that had high rates personal belief exemptions. That prompted CA to pass another law in 2019 scrutinizing medical exemptions by doctors.

Clark County, WA 2019- Only 81% of kids age 1 to 5 are MMR vaccinated.








						A Measles Outbreak Is Hitting the Pacific Northwest. Now There's a Surge in People Getting Vaccinated
					

“There’s no reason we should be having this outbreak”




					time.com
				




On the topic of alternative medicine:
https://jezebel.com/experts-say-those-who-dont-vaccinate-their-kids-tend-to-1832157679 (1/29/2019)


> Daniel Salmon, the director of the Institute of Vaccine Safety at Johns Hopkins University, told ABC news that existing research suggests parents who tend vaccinate their kids, “tend to be better educated. They tend to be white, and they tend to be higher income. They tend to have larger families and they tend to use complementary and alternative medicine like chiropractors and naturopaths.”












						Why Holistic Medicine Is Marketed to Rich White Women
					

And how this leaves behind those who need it most




					medium.com
				





> United States such treatments have become staples at upscale spas and clinics in trendy New York and Los Angeles neighborhoods. As a result, those utilizing holistic medicine are actually more likely to be educated, wealthy, and insured. It’s a vicious cycle in which holistic treatments are glamorized, sold to the wealthy, and thus hyperconcentrated for moneymaking purposes.












						Millennials Embrace Alternative Medicine, a $32 Billion Business
					

Many in their 20s and 30s are embracing alternative medicine, which includes everything from massage, meditation, acupuncture and yoga to herbal, nutritional and plant-based supplements and homeopathic remedies.




					www.thefiscaltimes.com
				




I suspect a lot of these all natural people have since sensibly changed their minds, at least when it comes to the COVID vaccine and their own body. What they decide in terms of vaccinating their children is yet to be seen. Right now children’s COVID vaccine rates are very low in most states, regardless of politics/culture.


----------



## SuperMatt

AG_PhamD said:


> Yes, I’ve said multiple times currently in terms of COVID, the right wing is the bigger problem… and not just the typical radical religious right wingers. I think the majority of the right wing refusing vaccines are doing it for non-religious reasons.
> 
> I’m not trying to make a political slight against the left or make some competition of who is more antivax. I’m just saying these people do actually exist and there’s a significant number of them out there. I’m not sure why I even have to prove this considering intuitively I’m sure you know they do. Going “all natural” has been incredibly trendy.
> 
> If you want to go back pre-pandemic though, before all this crazy partisanship around vaccines, I’d say the liberal crowd may have had an edge. For example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA's Richest Neighborhoods Have Vaccination Rates Lower Than the Poorest Parts of Africa
> 
> 
> Hollywood parents say not vaccinating makes "instinctive" sense. Now their kids have whooping cough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After a Debacle, How California Became a Role Model on Measles (Published 2018)
> 
> 
> Changing minds on vaccination is very difficult, but it isn’t so important when a law can change behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Until California banned personal belief exemptions for vaccines, 36% of children were in a school below herd immunity. Some schools were 80% and below. The ban largely rectified the problem, however medical exemptions magically spiked 400%, most commonly in the schools that had high rates personal belief exemptions. That prompted CA to pass another law in 2019 scrutinizing medical exemptions by doctors.
> 
> Clark County, WA 2019- Only 81% of kids age 1 to 5 are MMR vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Measles Outbreak Is Hitting the Pacific Northwest. Now There's a Surge in People Getting Vaccinated
> 
> 
> “There’s no reason we should be having this outbreak”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the topic of alternative medicine:
> https://jezebel.com/experts-say-those-who-dont-vaccinate-their-kids-tend-to-1832157679 (1/29/2019)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Holistic Medicine Is Marketed to Rich White Women
> 
> 
> And how this leaves behind those who need it most
> 
> 
> 
> 
> medium.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Millennials Embrace Alternative Medicine, a $32 Billion Business
> 
> 
> Many in their 20s and 30s are embracing alternative medicine, which includes everything from massage, meditation, acupuncture and yoga to herbal, nutritional and plant-based supplements and homeopathic remedies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thefiscaltimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect many of these all natural people have since changed their minds, at least when it comes to the COVID vaccine and their body. What they decide in terms of vaccinating their children is yet to be seen. Right now children’s COVID vaccine rates are very low in most states, regardless of politics/culture.



I would submit that these anti-vax movements have little to do with each other.

The refusal to get the measles vaccine was not about politics. It was a sizable, but not huge group of parents who bought into the anti-vaccine hysteria following a flawed study (falsely) claiming that vaccines caused autism. This pushed many into the arms of snake-oil salesmen pushing homeopathic nonsense.

The current anti-vaccine movement is only about the COVID-19 vaccine, and its roots are clearly traced to Donald Trump. It is FAR larger, and is purely political.

It’s not an apples-to-apples comparison.


----------



## Huntn

Renzatic said:


> Just think of the homeopathy/anti-vax movement as what it is: 21st century snake oil marketing.



And I would  seperate this from actual “natural medicine“ as practiced by… gosh, I can’t say who, oh yeah Strider who  told Sam to find Athelas to help slow the poison in Frodo’s wound.  Seriously, my impression is that native cultures have/had some level of knowledge regarding plant healing properties.


----------



## User.45

AG_PhamD said:


> Yes, I’ve said multiple times currently in terms of COVID, the right wing is the bigger problem… and not just the typical radical religious right wingers. I think the majority of the right wing refusing vaccines are doing it for non-religious reasons- it’s like some hill to die on (quite literally) about personal freedom that makes little sense.
> 
> I’m not trying to make a political slight against the left or make some competition of who is more antivax. I’m just saying anti-vax people do actually exist and there’s a significant number of them out there. I’m not sure why I even have to prove this considering intuitively I’m sure you know they do. Going “all natural” has been incredibly trendy.
> 
> If you want to go back pre-pandemic though, before all this crazy partisanship around vaccines, I’d say the liberal crowd may have had an edge. For example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA's Richest Neighborhoods Have Vaccination Rates Lower Than the Poorest Parts of Africa
> 
> 
> Hollywood parents say not vaccinating makes "instinctive" sense. Now their kids have whooping cough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After a Debacle, How California Became a Role Model on Measles (Published 2018)
> 
> 
> Changing minds on vaccination is very difficult, but it isn’t so important when a law can change behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Until California banned personal belief exemptions for vaccines, 36% of children were in a school below herd immunity. Some schools were 80% and below. The ban largely rectified the problem, however medical exemptions magically spiked 400%, most commonly in the schools that had high rates personal belief exemptions. That prompted CA to pass another law in 2019 scrutinizing medical exemptions by doctors.
> 
> Clark County, WA 2019- Only 81% of kids age 1 to 5 are MMR vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Measles Outbreak Is Hitting the Pacific Northwest. Now There's a Surge in People Getting Vaccinated
> 
> 
> “There’s no reason we should be having this outbreak”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the topic of alternative medicine:
> https://jezebel.com/experts-say-those-who-dont-vaccinate-their-kids-tend-to-1832157679 (1/29/2019)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Holistic Medicine Is Marketed to Rich White Women
> 
> 
> And how this leaves behind those who need it most
> 
> 
> 
> 
> medium.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Millennials Embrace Alternative Medicine, a $32 Billion Business
> 
> 
> Many in their 20s and 30s are embracing alternative medicine, which includes everything from massage, meditation, acupuncture and yoga to herbal, nutritional and plant-based supplements and homeopathic remedies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thefiscaltimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect a lot of these all natural people have since sensibly changed their minds, at least when it comes to the COVID vaccine and their own body. What they decide in terms of vaccinating their children is yet to be seen. Right now children’s COVID vaccine rates are very low in most states, regardless of politics/culture.



Invalid points in a COVID discussion, when the death differential is a net +200K for GOP voters despite being fewer than Democrats.


----------



## AG_PhamD

P_X said:


> Invalid points in a COVID discussion, when the death differential is a net +200K for GOP voters despite being fewer than Democrats.






> AG_PhamD said:
> Yes, I’ve said multiple times *currently in terms of COVID, the right wing is the bigger problem…* and not just the typical radical religious right wingers. I think the majority of the right wing refusing vaccines are doing it for non-religious reasons- it’s like some hill to die on (quite literally) about personal freedom that makes little sense.




This is exhausting.


----------



## Yoused

Huntn said:


> I wonder if it is really _trust only natural ingredients _which is a bit of a joke …





Spoiler: 100% NATURAL cure!






(except, not quite sure about how natural warfarin or Prussian Blue are)


----------



## Renzatic

Huntn said:


> And I would  seperate this from actual “natural medicine“ as practiced by… gosh, I can’t say who, oh yeah Strider who  told Sam to find Athelas to help slow the poison in Frodo’s wound.  Seriously, my impression is that native cultures have/had some level of knowledge regarding plant healing properties.




There is some truth to these natural remedies. Like willow bark being a good substitute for aspirin, and other little bits and bobs. It's when you start getting into the whole ZINC CURES EVERYTHING, I READ ABOUT IT ON THE INTERNET crowd, who tend to take marginal evidence as proof positive of massive effects that things start getting screwy.


----------



## User.45

AG_PhamD said:


> This is exhausting.



Thanks for agreeing


----------



## AG_PhamD

So it turns out my 96 year old grandfather caught COVID. He woke up with chest congestion this morning and by this afternoon had fainted, prompting an ambulance ride to the hospital. 

He lives at home with a full time caregiver who is truly amazing. He’s not particularly mobile so he doesn’t get out much. His caregiver tested negative, so we’re not exactly sure how he caught this. Sneaking out at night to hangout with his girlfriends? Haha. 

He received his booster a couple weeks before Thanksgiving so presumably he should have antibodies … but he’s also 96 so his immune system is not going to be the best. Given his age, underlying mild-moderate respiratory issues, and propensity for pneumonia, his illness is obviously quite concerning. 

All I know is he’s on fluids and supplemental O2. And that he had a chest x-ray but nothing more.


----------



## Huntn

AG_PhamD said:


> So it turns out my 96 year old grandfather caught COVID. He woke up with chest congestion this morning and by this afternoon had fainted, prompting an ambulance ride to the hospital.
> 
> He lives at home with a full time caregiver who is truly amazing. He’s not particularly mobile so he doesn’t get out much. His caregiver tested negative, so we’re not exactly sure how he caught this. Sneaking out at night to hangout with his girlfriends? Haha.
> 
> He received his booster a couple weeks before Thanksgiving so presumably he should have antibodies … but he’s also 96 so his immune system is not going to be the best. Given his age, underlying mild-moderate respiratory issues, and propensity for pneumonia, his illness is obviously quite concerning.
> 
> All I know is he’s on fluids and supplemental O2. And that he had a chest x-ray but nothing more.



Best wishes to your Grandfather. Does anyone have a clue how he was exposed?.


----------



## Alli

My sister-in-law’s mother made fun of us for going on a cruise during a pandemic. Right before we left she tested positive. She caught Covid at a wedding.


----------



## User.45

AG_PhamD said:


> So it turns out my 96 year old grandfather caught COVID. He woke up with chest congestion this morning and by this afternoon had fainted, prompting an ambulance ride to the hospital.
> 
> He lives at home with a full time caregiver who is truly amazing. He’s not particularly mobile so he doesn’t get out much. His caregiver tested negative, so we’re not exactly sure how he caught this. Sneaking out at night to hangout with his girlfriends? Haha.
> 
> He received his booster a couple weeks before Thanksgiving so presumably he should have antibodies … but he’s also 96 so his immune system is not going to be the best. Given his age, underlying mild-moderate respiratory issues, and propensity for pneumonia, his illness is obviously quite concerning.
> 
> All I know is he’s on fluids and supplemental O2. And that he had a chest x-ray but nothing more.



I hope he's well. We've been testing a set of patients' antibodies and there are people who produce virtully none even after 2x2 full doses of Pfizer and Moderna. Now I don't yet know about their cellular immunity because we'll test that later, in bulk. But this is why in an ideal, data driven world we would rely on biomarker data about immunity. The other perk of such would be that it would be much better to individualize  recommendations on quarantine duration (immunosuppressed patients shed the viral particles longer). 

Also, it was a caregiver, who probably had a false negative antigen test. Unless there are other contacts within the past 2-4 weeks.


----------



## AG_PhamD

Huntn said:


> Best wishes to your Grandfather. Does anyone have a clue how he was exposed?.



Thanks! We’re still working out where he’s been and who he had been in contact with. 



P_X said:


> I hope he's well. We've been testing a set of patients' antibodies and there are people who produce virtully none even after 2x2 full doses of Pfizer and Moderna. Now I don't yet know about their cellular immunity because we'll test that later, in bulk. But this is why in an ideal, data driven world we would rely on biomarker data about immunity. The other perk of such would be that it would be much better to individualize  recommendations on quarantine duration (immunosuppressed patients shed the viral particles longer).
> 
> Also, it was a caregiver, who probably had a false negative antigen test. Unless there are other contacts within the past 2-4 weeks.




Interesting. I would be curious to know what you find out. 

I would agree the caregiver is probably the most likely culprit. She got a PCR test but yes, a false negative is entirely possible. I did give them a bunch of rapid tests, so she could that a shot if she hasn’t already. She does live with him 24/7 but does go out to run errands. 

He also has an RN and PT that come in. Not sure when the last time they were around. But that’s another likely possibility if they were around last week. 

There’s also a couple people from the senior center who come by to visit and do activities with him. This has been greatly reduced since COVID, but I think one of the women still stops by on occasion. 

There’s also some people from the synagogue that visit him, but I’m not sure how often that happens either. 

My mom and uncle had visited him ~18hrs before his symptoms began. While my Uncle has been known to be rather lax with COVID reccomendations, I think it’s unlikely it came from either him or my mom as that would be an absurdly fast incubation period. My mom is a physician and is tested twice a week- plus takes rapid tests before visiting him. 

Ultimately I suppose the source doesn’t really matter. I don’t think someone would intentionally be around him if they knew they were infected. I’m not looking for someone to blame. 

The rather nonspecific treatment info I have been told he is on Remdesivir, IV antibiotics, a steroid, and a blood thinner.

Anyways, reportedly he is feeling better this morning. He ate this morning and apparently was joking with nurses, so that’s a good sign.


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## Roller

AG_PhamD said:


> Thanks! We’re still working out where he’s been and who he had been in contact with.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. I would be curious to know what you find out.
> 
> I would agree the caregiver is probably the most likely culprit. She got a PCR test but yes, a false negative is entirely possible. I did give them a bunch of rapid tests, so she could that a shot if she hasn’t already. She does live with him 24/7 but does go out to run errands.
> 
> He also has an RN and PT that come in. Not sure when the last time they were around. But that’s another likely possibility if they were around last week.
> 
> There’s also a couple people from the senior center who come by to visit and do activities with him. This has been greatly reduced since COVID, but I think one of the women still stops by on occasion.
> 
> There’s also some people from the synagogue that visit him, but I’m not sure how often that happens either.
> 
> My mom and uncle had visited him ~18hrs before his symptoms began. While my Uncle has been known to be rather lax with COVID reccomendations, I think it’s unlikely it came from either him or my mom as that would be an absurdly fast incubation period. My mom is a physician and is tested twice a week- plus takes rapid tests before visiting him.
> 
> Ultimately I suppose the source doesn’t really matter. I don’t think someone would intentionally be around him if they knew they were infected. I’m not looking for someone to blame.
> 
> The rather nonspecific treatment info I have been told he is on Remdesivir, IV antibiotics, a steroid, and a blood thinner.
> 
> Anyways, reportedly he is feeling better this morning. He ate this morning and apparently was joking with nurses, so that’s a good sign.



I'm so sorry to hear about your grandfather — I hope he continues to do well and will be able to leave hospital soon.

With omicron's transmissibility, meaningful contact tracing has become exceedingly difficult, if not impossible. Brief encounters that may not be recalled and wouldn't have been problematic with previous variants or the wild type virus now can cause infection. Earlier in the pandemic, I personally knew very few people who had COVID-19, but now I hear of a few more every day or two, and many of them have no idea where they caught it.


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## Eric

My brother has it, he has two doses but didn't get the booster and is experiencing symptoms including moving deep into his lungs. I know it's a milder variant but I'm concerned because he has messed up lungs like I do. My sister is trying to convince him to get the monoclonal IV therapy but so far he's resisting. We'll see how it goes but it seems like there's little to lose with at least trying it.


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## Runs For Fun

Eric said:


> My brother has it, he has two doses but didn't get the booster and is experiencing symptoms including moving deep into his lungs. I know it's a milder variant but I'm concerned because he has messed up lungs like I do. My sister is trying to convince him to get the monoclonal IV therapy but so far he's resisting. We'll see how it goes but it seems like there's little to lose with at least trying it.



I’ve heard it’s really important to start monoclonal treatment as soon as possible. The longer you wait the less helpful it will be.


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## Huntn

Eric said:


> My brother has it, he has two doses but didn't get the booster and is experiencing symptoms including moving deep into his lungs. I know it's a milder variant but I'm concerned because he has messed up lungs like I do. My sister is trying to convince him to get the monoclonal IV therapy but so far he's resisting. We'll see how it goes but it seems like there's little to lose with at least trying it.



I hope he passes it with out complications.

I’ve wondered why COVID vaccines are short lived, this article from Fox Business (of all places) sounds reasonable. Is Fox business a non-political space at times? 









						Some vaccines last a lifetime. Here’s why COVID-19 shots don’t.
					

Why don’t COVID-19 vaccinations last longer?




					www.foxbusiness.com


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## Thomas Veil

AG_PhamD said:


> I think the majority of the right wing refusing vaccines are doing it for non-religious reasons- it’s like some hill to die on (quite literally) about personal freedom that makes little sense.




From what a lot of us have been reading lately, there are certain people who, once they are suckered in by disinformation, are congenitally incapable of admitting they are wrong even when presented with clear and obvious facts. “Making sense” is not important to them; “proving” that they are right is.

It’s not unlike the (often true) stereotype of the husband who is driving but is lost. No amount of pleading from his family will convince him to stop and ask for directions. He’s convinced that he _knows_ where he’s going. And so he gets further and further lost.

I don’t know what the big effing deal is with this type of personality with just admitting that they were wrong, but it’s as if they equate it with something awful like being castrated.


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## Eric

Runs For Fun said:


> I’ve heard it’s really important to start monoclonal treatment as soon as possible. The longer you wait the less helpful it will be.



Yeah we're trying but in the end it will be his call. Statistically speaking though most are okay with two doses, just wish he would've gotten the booster.


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## SuperMatt

Thomas Veil said:


> From what a lot of us have been reading lately, there are certain people who, once they are suckered in by disinformation, are congenitally incapable of admitting they are wrong even when presented with clear and obvious facts. “Making sense” is not important to them; “proving” that they are right is.
> 
> It’s not unlike the (often true) stereotype of the husband who is driving but is lost. No amount of pleading from his family will convince him to stop and ask for directions. He’s convinced that he _knows_ where he’s going. And so he gets further and further lost.
> 
> I don’t know what the big effing deal is with this type of personality with just admitting that they were wrong, but it’s as if they equate it with something awful like being castrated.



This got me thinking about an article I read. It talks about this exact phenomenon.









						Opinion | Why Millions Think It Is Trump Who Cannot Tell a Lie
					

“What perhaps looks like collective derangement to many outside the party ranks is really just raw political calculation.”




					www.nytimes.com
				



(paywall removed)



> Al-Gharbi sharply disputes this conclusion:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most Republican voters likely don’t believe in the Big Lie. But many would nonetheless profess to believe it in polls and surveys, and would support politicians who make similar professions, because these professions serve as a sign of defiance against the prevailing elites, they serve as signs of group solidarity and commitment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poll respondents, he continued,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> often give the factually wrong answer about empirical matters, not because they don’t know the empirically correct answer, but because they don’t want to give political fodder to their opponents with respect to their preferred policies. And when one takes down the temperature on these political stakes, again, often the differences on ‘the facts’ also disappear.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


The article quotes other scholars who think voters DO believe the big lie… but I’m more inclined to see the above as the actual situation. They know he didn’t win, but all they care about is sticking with the tribe and owning the libs. It’s the same with COVID. They will go to their grave proclaiming they don’t believe it. But I saw an interview with a doctor and he said in private they 100% beg for the vaccine, but he has to tell them it’s too late.


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## Huntn

SuperMatt said:


> This got me thinking about an article I read. It talks about this exact phenomenon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | Why Millions Think It Is Trump Who Cannot Tell a Lie
> 
> 
> “What perhaps looks like collective derangement to many outside the party ranks is really just raw political calculation.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (paywall removed)
> 
> 
> The article quotes other scholars who think voters DO believe the big lie… but I’m more inclined to see the above as the actual situation. They know he didn’t win, but all they care about is sticking with the tribe and owning the libs. It’s the same with COVID. They will go to their grave proclaiming they don’t believe it. But I saw an interview with a doctor and he said in private they 100% beg for the vaccine, but he has to tell them it’s too late.



Some bail, but for others it’s if they think he can win wearing an R (when really he wears a POS), then the blinders are on even though he represents a dire threat to our democracy and constitution as rampaging, self serving, self destroying, CORRUPTION. This falls back onto some portion of our populace and if anything it gives you a new perspective about the makeup of some of those around you,


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## Roller

Eric said:


> Yeah we're trying but in the end it will be his call. Statistically speaking though most are okay with two doses, just wish he would've gotten the booster.



There are only two monoclonals that have been shown to be effective against the omicron variant, and they are in short supply. Paxlovid also works well, but has to be given within 5 days of symptom onset. I hope your brother recovers quickly - even absent these therapies, most people still do well.


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## MEJHarrison

We have a funeral a couple weeks back.  Now 2 of the 5 people in this house are positive.  One more almost certainly has it.  He's been coughing for a week or two.  He's also the only one living here who didn't take things super serious.  I doubt he has all three shots.  Everyone else is just like having a mild cold.

Regardless, I went and got a free test today.  Turns out I'm still negative.  Or am negative once again?  I just know I've never felt sick, but I sleep next to one of the positive people and kiss her all the time.  So it seems highly unlikely I've just been very lucky.


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