# Ilhan Omar to introduce articles of impeachment



## Thomas Veil

Ilhan Omar drawing up impeachment articles as seven Dems call for Trump’s removal
					

Calls for president’s immediate removal unite moderate and progressive Democrats alike




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Yes. Don’t wait. He can be barred from ever running again.


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## iLunar

And there better be investigations into all of this. 

I am truly, truly sad for our country today.


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## Thomas Veil

Looks like it’s not just Omar.



			More than 2 dozen Democratic lawmakers say they will try to impeach Trump again following riots over his election conspiracy theories


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## lizkat

Thomas Veil said:


> Ilhan Omar drawing up impeachment articles as seven Dems call for Trump’s removal
> 
> 
> Calls for president’s immediate removal unite moderate and progressive Democrats alike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Don’t wait. He can be barred from ever running again.




That's the main thing.   If Trump cannot run for public office then there's no point in offbrand media deciding to underwrite his interim reality shows figuring to reap a harvest of connectedness later on.

I just hope this country loses interest in his children's political prospects as well.   Jail terms should help, maybe.


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## iLunar

lizkat said:


> That's the main thing.   If Trump cannot run for public office then there's no point in offbrand media deciding to underwrite his interim reality shows figuring to reap a harvest of connectedness later on.
> 
> I just hope this country loses interest in his children's political prospects as well.   Jail terms should help, maybe.




Unpacking the grift and corruption will help.

Not to mention shining a light on everything the Trump admin did to undermine the Constitution and hurt the American people. 

There's no moving on from this until justice is served.


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## Thomas Veil

Donald Trump should be removed from office to preserve democracy, business leaders say | CNN Business
					

The National Association of Manufacturers, one of the most influential business groups in the US, called on Vice President Mike Pence Wednesday to consider removing President Donald Trump from office.




					www.cnn.com
				




Boy, once you’ve lost big business...


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## lizkat

Thomas Veil said:


> Donald Trump should be removed from office to preserve democracy, business leaders say | CNN Business
> 
> 
> The National Association of Manufacturers, one of the most influential business groups in the US, called on Vice President Mike Pence Wednesday to consider removing President Donald Trump from office.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, once you’ve lost big business...




I just emailed my congress critter.  I said ship the impeachment over there even while Mitch still holds the gavel.  Strike while the iron is hot and so is McConnell.


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## Thomas Veil

Yes. Do it now.


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## Scepticalscribe

lizkat said:


> I just emailed my congress critter.  I said ship the impeachment over there even while Mitch still holds the gavel.  Strike while the iron is hot and so is McConnell.




Very well done.


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## Thomas Veil

lizkat said:


> I just emailed my congress critter.



I followed your lead.


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## Scepticalscribe

Thomas Veil said:


> I followed your lead.




Bravo.


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## Renzatic

It needs to happen, and it needs to happen now. For the sake of our future prosperity, Trump should be made to pay for what he's done.


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## Scepticalscribe

Renzatic said:


> It needs to happen, and it needs to happen now. For the sake of our future prosperity, Trump should be made to pay for what he's done.




Not just for "future prosperity", but for people to still believe in democracy, - that you get to choose who governs you, and that your choice and your voice matters - that you can continue to have faith in, and hope for, peaceful and progressive change coming about as a result of choices made on a ballot, that the key concept of the consent of the governed is safe-guarded, along with that of a peaceful transfer of political power, from one office holder to his or her successor, once an election result has been certified as a free, fair, and accurate record of the votes cast by the electorate in that electoral contest.


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## Eric

Democrats are starting to flex some muscle here. They are now in a position to actually impeach and convict, the other option is to get Pence to invoke 25th Amendment which seems unlikely. The biggest benefit for impeachment is removing his ability to ever run again which is worth the effort to get it passed IMO.


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## Gutwrench

Omar drafting the articles is rich, lol.


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## SuperMatt

Gutwrench said:


> Omar drafting the articles is rich, lol.



Why?


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## lizkat

It is rich.  I like it.  She's sending that guy in the WH a message that she can't go "back home" because this is her home and by god she's going to help us all try to make it fit to live  in again.


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## Eric

lizkat said:


> It is rich.  I like it.  She's sending that guy in the WH a message that she can't go "back home" because this is her home and by god she's going to help us all try to make it fit to live  in again.



Yep, that comment is more related to her race and/or religion. Typical of today's Republicans. I'm sure if her race was pure it wouldn't be such an issue.


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## lizkat

ericgtr12 said:


> Yep, that comment is more related to her race and/or religion. Typical of today's Republicans. I'm sure if her race was pure it wouldn't be such an issue.




Maybe if she were Norwegian and asked him to resign he'd buy into it?   He wanted more Norwegians in here for some reason.  I am not sure it was a reason that either Norway or Norwegians or Norwegian-Americans had signed off on though. 

And Trump probably didn't expect a Norwegian-American would ever ask him to resign or face impeachment.  I also bet Trump doesn't know that Somalians are the largest African migration group among Norwegian immigrants.

Be fun to try to round up a Norwegian-Somali-American to support the impeachment articles.  The night is still young.


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## Eric

lizkat said:


> Maybe if she were Norwegian and asked him to resign he'd buy into it?   He wanted more Norwegians in here for some reason.  I am not sure it was a reason that either Norway or Norwegians or Norwegian-Americans had signed off on though.
> 
> And Trump probably didn't expect a Norwegian-American would ever ask him to resign or face impeachment.  I also bet Trump doesn't know that Somalians are the largest African migration group among Norwegian immigrants.
> 
> Be fun to try to round up a Norwegian-Somali-American to support the impeachment articles.  The night is still young.



Are the eyes blue? That's key.


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## Gutwrench

SuperMatt said:


> Why?



Because it’s funny. Are you not aware of her and Trump?


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## lizkat

ericgtr12 said:


> Are the eyes blue? That's key.




Might take until Monday...


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## SuperMatt

Gutwrench said:


> Because it’s funny. Are you not aware of her and Trump?



The definition I’m aware of ”that’s rich” indicates that it’s not a fair criticism or statement, based on who is saying it. This is usually because the accuser did the same thing they are accusing somebody else of.

I fail to see how it applies to Ilhan Omar, who, to my knowledge, has never incited a mob of people to storm the Capitol, nor called state officials to convince them to throw out votes in an election. I think the impeachment is for one or both of those crimes...?


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## lizkat

Meanwhile my congressman is on board.   His eyes are not blue,  probably more like bloodshot from reading a shed ton of email including from me,  just in case his own assessment of Trump was not sufficient to convince him to back removal or impeachment and removal...  which I think he already favored.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347276534600634371/


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## Gutwrench

SuperMatt said:


> The definition I’m aware of ”that’s rich” indicates that it’s not a fair criticism or statement, based on who is saying it. This is usually because the accuser did the same thing they are accusing somebody else of.
> 
> I fail to see how it applies to Ilhan Omar, who, to my knowledge, has never incited a mob of people to storm the Capitol, nor called state officials to convince them to throw out votes in an election. I think the impeachment is for one or both of those crimes...?




That’s rich means it’s entertainment as well. Stop reading into things, you’re not good at it.  Stay on topic.


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## lizkat

How this for on topic...   Chair of the House Judiciary, Jerrold Nadler,  says to skip his committee and bring impeachment articles directly to the floor.   The House will have to be recalled to do this so it won't happen today.  But it will speed things up.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347317194321928194/

No wonder the video Trump just posted to his Twitter account was so studiously conciliatory.  Little late there Donnie.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347334804052844550/


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## User.45

lizkat said:


> Meanwhile my congressman is on board.   His eyes are not blue,  probably more like bloodshot from reading a shed ton of email including from me,  just in case his own assessment of Trump was not sufficient to convince him to back removal or impeachment and removal...  which I think he already favored.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347276534600634371/



Im kinda lost here. Could Trump be impeached faster than Jan 20?


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## SuperMatt

Gutwrench said:


> That’s rich means it’s entertainment as well. Stop reading into things, you’re not good at it.  Stay on topic.



Anything else you want to say about what I am good or bad at? That has nothing to do with the topic.


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## Eric

P_X said:


> Im kinda lost here. Could Trump be impeached faster than Jan 20?



It sounds possible if the they really push, but they can also do it after he's gone. The biggest benefit is that if they choose to convict he can never be president again, ruling out any future run.


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## Gutwrench

SuperMatt said:


> Anything else you want to say about what I am good or bad at? That has nothing to do with the topic.




Nope. Only that I think it’s funny Omar is the author. I doubt it’s any coincidence.


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## User.45

lizkat said:


> How this for on topic...   Chair of the House Judiciary, Jerrold Nadler,  says to skip his committee and bring impeachment articles directly to the floor.   The House will have to be recalled to do this so it won't happen today.  But it will speed things up.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347317194321928194/
> 
> No wonder the video Trump just posted to his Twitter account was so studiously conciliatory.  Little late there Donnie.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347334804052844550/



What a gorgeous fountain of sonic diarrhea. 
#ITAKENORESPONSIBILITY


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## Gutwrench

ericgtr12 said:


> It sounds possible if the they really push, but they can also do it after he's gone.




It would be another colossal waste of time and money.


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## SuperMatt

Gutwrench said:


> Nope. Only that I think it’s funny Omar is the author. I doubt it’s any coincidence.



I don‘t think it’s funny, and can’t figure out what supposedly makes it funny. But if somebody has to explain a joke, it’s no longer funny anyway, so we’ll just say I don’t get it.


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## lizkat

ericgtr12 said:


> It sounds possible if the they really push, but they can also do it after he's gone. The biggest benefit is that if they choose to convict he can never be president again, ruling out any future run.




They can pass it in the House in a single session if they decide to take Nadler up on skipping Judiciary Committee and present the articles directly to a floor vote.  On the Senate side,  McConnell will not be deciding how a trial would go.

Even if he were,  he's not the same Mitch ran the last trial hand in hand with the White House. All the toady is gone.



Gutwrench said:


> It would be another colossal waste of time and money.




The cost of printing up the impeachment articles and having a vote of them would end up like the cost of printing up a resolution to change part of the name of a highway to honor a fallen member of the military or a state trooper.

In the Senate, a little different.   I bet not very much different though.    Trump has dishonored his party, no question.   One can question how much honor was left thanks to their enabling or complicit behavior, but yesterday was different and everyone in government knows that... including the VP and cabinet members who are too chicken to do what they should have done by 6am this morning, just remove him for incapacity to serve and be done with it, let chips fly where they may for four days and then another 21 by which time Biden will have become President.


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## SuperMatt

lizkat said:


> They can pass it in the House in a single session if they decide to take Nadler up on skipping Judiciary Committee and present the articles directly to a floor vote.  On the Senate side,  McConnell will not be deciding how a trial would go.
> 
> Even if he were,  he's not the same Mitch ran the last trial hand in hand with the White House. All the toady is gone.
> 
> 
> 
> The cost of printing up the impeachment articles and having a vote of them would end up like the cost of printing up a resolution to change part of the name of a highway to honor a fallen member of the military or a state trooper.
> 
> In the Senate, a little different.   I bet not very much different though.    Trump has dishonored his party, no question.   One can question how much honor was left thanks to their enabling or complicit behavior, but yesterday was different and everyone in government knows that... including the VP and cabinet members who are too chicken to do what they should have done by 6am this morning, just remove him for incapacity to serve and be done with it, let chips fly where they may for four days and then another 21 by which time Biden will have become President.



Would an impeachment also prevent Trump from running for office in the future?


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## User.45

lizkat said:


> They can pass it in the House in a single session if they decide to take Nadler up on skipping Judiciary Committee and present the articles directly to a floor vote.  On the Senate side,  McConnell will not be deciding how a trial would go.
> 
> Even if he were,  he's not the same Mitch ran the last trial hand in hand with the White House. All the toady is gone.
> 
> 
> 
> The cost of printing up the impeachment articles and having a vote of them would end up like the cost of printing up a resolution to change part of the name of a highway to honor a fallen member of the military or a state trooper.
> 
> In the Senate, a little different.   I bet not very much different though.    Trump has dishonored his party, no question.   One can question how much honor was left thanks to their enabling or complicit behavior, but yesterday was different and everyone in government knows that... including the VP and cabinet members who are too chicken to do what they should have done by 6am this morning, just remove him for incapacity to serve and be done with it, let chips fly where they may for four days and then another 21 by which time Biden will have become President.



I can actually see this as an opportunity for the R's to eliminate much of Trump's influence on the party. It would be costly for them short term, but probably would keep them afloat on the long run.


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## Gutwrench

SuperMatt said:


> Would an impeachment also prevent Trump from running for office in the future?




Presidency yes. He could run for Congress and state offices.


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## lizkat

SuperMatt said:


> Would an impeachment also prevent Trump from running for office in the future?




No.  Conviction and removal on impeachment article(s) is what may trigger that, but only if the Senate also votes specifically to disquality the person from running again for office.   Or at least that is how it has been interpreted.

 There's a guy in Florida, a Democrat who while on the federal bench was impeached (by Democrats) on perjury and bribery, was convicted and removed in 1989 by the Senate on some of the counts, but he was not precluded from running for office.  He ran for and won a seat in Congress in 1992 and still serves there now.



> Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States…


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## Gutwrench

SuperMatt said:


> I don‘t think it’s funny, and can’t figure out what supposedly makes it funny.




You know Trump hates her right?


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## iLunar

P_X said:


> I can actually see this as an opportunity for the R's to eliminate much of Trump's influence on the party. It would be costly for them short term, but probably would keep them afloat on the long run.




If they're smart, this offers them a tremendous re-branding opportunity. Mitch and Lindsay are probably working this out right now.


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## User.45

Gutwrench said:


> You know Trump hates her right?



Of course he does. Trump's a racist.


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## Scepticalscribe

SuperMatt said:


> Would an impeachment also prevent Trump from running for office in the future?



After a vote has been passed (which requires a majority of two thirds of the Senate) to impeach the office holder (in this instance, the President), to answer your question, (I've been reading this stuff this evening, while drinking red wine from France, how sad is that?), following conviction, *the Senate may vote to further punish the individual by barring him or her from holding future federal office, elected or appointed. *

This requires a subsequent, separate motion of disqualification, but can be moved once an impeachment motion has been carried.

As the threshold for disqualification is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, the Senate has taken the position that the disqualification votes only require a simple majority rather than a two-thirds supermajority.

Historically, the Senate has used disqualification sparingly, as only three individuals have been disqualified from holding future office.


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## Scepticalscribe

P_X said:


> Of course he does. Trump's a racist.




And a misogynist.


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## Gutwrench

P_X said:


> Of course he does. Trump's a racist.




I don’t know that. But that aside makes it rich.


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## lizkat

iLunar said:


> If they're smart, this offers them a tremendous re-branding opportunity. Mitch and Lindsay are probably working this out right now.




Or you know Trump could just take the advice of Rupert Murdoch's upper tier rag and resign.  Of course it's easy for the WSJ to say since they're probably not expecting to be hit by a raft of indictments in a couple of weeks.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347336480352514048/


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## User.45

Gutwrench said:


> I don’t know that. But that aside makes it rich.



Your neck of the woods.


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## Thomas Veil

SuperMatt said:


> I don‘t think it’s funny, and can’t figure out what supposedly makes it funny. But if somebody has to explain a joke, it’s no longer funny anyway, so we’ll just say I don’t get it.



I don’t get it either. My understanding of the meaning of “that’s rich” is identical to yours. Why it should apply to Omar is unclear.


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## User.45

Scepticalscribe said:


> And a misogynist.



Yup. That too.


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## Alli

Gutwrench said:


> You know Trump hates her right?



He hates all a) women, b) people of color, c) Muslims, and d) Democrats.


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## iLunar

lizkat said:


> Or you know Trump could just take the advice of Rupert Murdoch's upper tier rag and resign.  Of course it's easy for the WSJ to say since they're probably not expecting to be hit by a raft of indictments in a couple of weeks.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347336480352514048/




I think more and more the truth will emerge that this was an inside job with the Capitol Police, but they failed to prolong the certification. Now that Biden is certified, Trump has very few options, which is why the video of him saving face came out. He's trying to buy time. I really hope the powers that be are a few steps ahead of Trump and any kind of insurgents. Scary times. IMO, he needs to be removed from office immediately.

And I think there's likely to be a Congressional inquiry. At least there better be. It's time to clean house of insurgents in police departments across the country. 

There's going to be a lot distractions in the coming days like Betsy Devos resigning – why? She was done anyway. She's doing it to eat up a headline. Her and her Blackwater/Haliburton private army family are knee deep in Trump waste. She's not resigning out of the goodness of her heart.

I know I'm being paranoid, but these last four years have really brought to light what Margerat Atwood wrote about how quickly fascism can spread: "So, no guarantees. No guarantees that things aren’t going to go tits up, quite rapidly.” 

I think it's important to keep shining a light and not be pacified by resignations and people jumping ship. We need to get to the heart of every deplorable and expose their actions. Every behind-the-scenes maneuver by the Trump admin needs to be looked at, documented and countered with law.

(This is a good read: ‘Things can change a lot faster than you think,’ says Margaret Atwood, author of ‘The Handmaid's Tale’)


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## User.45

iLunar said:


> There's going to be a lot distractions in the coming days like Betsy Devos resigning – why? She was done anyway. She's doing it to eat up a headline. Her and her Blackwater/Haliburton private army family are knee deep in Trump waste. She's not resigning out of the goodness of her heart.



Rats leaving the ship.


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## Alli

I’m staying up late tonight to celebrate the departure of Betsy DeVos.


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## Gutwrench

P_X said:


> Your neck of the woods.




No idea what you’re talking about.


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## lizkat

iLunar said:


> I think more and more the truth will emerge that this was an inside job with the Capitol Police, but they failed to prolong the certification. Now that Biden is certified, Trump has very few options, which is why the video of him saving face came out. He's trying to buy time. I really hope the powers that be are a few steps ahead of Trump and any kind of insurgents. Scary times. IMO, he needs to be removed from office immediately.
> 
> And I think there's likely to be a Congressional inquiry. At least there better be. It's time to clean house of insurgents in police departments across the country.
> 
> There's going to be a lot distractions in the coming days like Betsy Devos resigning – why? She was done anyway. She's doing it to eat up a headline. Her and her Blackwater/Haliburton private army family are knee deep in Trump waste. She's not resigning out of the goodness of her heart.
> 
> I know I'm being paranoid, but these last four years have really brought to light what Margerat Atwood wrote about how quickly fascism can spread: "So, no guarantees. No guarantees that things aren’t going to go tits up, quite rapidly.”
> , ,
> I think it's important to keep shining a light and not be pacified by resignations and people jumping ship. We need to get to the heart of every deplorable and expose their actions. Every behind-the-scenes maneuver by the Trump admin needs to be looked at, documented and countered with law.
> 
> (This is a good read: ‘Things can change a lot faster than you think,’ says Margaret Atwood, author of ‘The Handmaid's Tale’)




Well that phone call where Rudy thought he was leaving a voicemail for Tuberville but it landed on another Senator's phone and the press got it...     where he said "we just want to slow the count"...    i thought that was maybe about some long shot of Trump's lawyers saying if it went into January 7th and the Congress hadn't finished their assigned duty required to occur on January 6th, then... hey..,   more time to bring another lawsuit over some damn thing...  or was something else supposed to happen if they could just keep the House and Senate in joint session and Pence occupied into the wee hours?

These guys are so incompetent but at the same time they always have these complex agendas and connections to nogoodniks.   In that sense the whole thing does feel like Watergate lately.  Only 10x worse.

I can't imagine Trump still in power for 13 more days now, with people jumping ship and WH counsel telling staffers don't go by him you'll end up in legal hell...   and yet he's dangerous unsupervised....    so no I don't think you're paranoid, or let's say hypervigilant.  Or anyway Trump and his crowd have made that a reasonable stance to end up with on autopilot.


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## lizkat

Alli said:


> I’m staying up late tonight to celebrate the departure of Betsy DeVos.




Imma raid the kitchen for a peanut sesame noodle bowl with some added tofu diced into it so I don't sugar crash at 3am.


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## iLunar

lizkat said:


> Well that phone call where Rudy thought he was leaving a voicemail for Tuberville but it landed on another Senator's phone and the press got it...     where he said "we just want to slow the count"...    i thought that was maybe about some long shot of Trump's lawyers saying if it went into January 7th and the Congress hadn't finished their assigned duty required to occur on January 6th, then... hey..,   more time to bring another lawsuit over some damn thing...  or was something else supposed to happen if they could just keep the House and Senate in joint session and Pence occupied into the wee hours?
> 
> These guys are so incompetent but at the same time they always have these complex agendas and connections to nogoodniks.   In that sense the whole thing does feel like Watergate lately.  Only 10x worse.
> 
> I can't imagine Trump still in power for 13 more days now, with people jumping ship and WH counsel telling staffers don't go by him you'll end up in legal hell...   and yet he's dangerous unsupervised....    so no I don't think you're paranoid, or let's say hypervigilant.  Or anyway Trump and his crowd have made that a reasonable stance to end up with on autopilot.




Yes, that Rudy phone call really made me question why they were trying to buy time. They're not buying time for 13 days, they're buying time to try some other shit.

And I like that! Let's stay hypervigilant. After 5+ years of gaslightining, I'm not putting anything past them.


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## User.45

Gutwrench said:


> No idea what you’re talking about.



He visited your state to talk about race horses, theories and genes. You like explicit stuff. Here's explicit.


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## lizkat

Thomas Veil said:


> Looks like it’s not just Omar.
> 
> 
> 
> More than 2 dozen Democratic lawmakers say they will try to impeach Trump again following riots over his election conspiracy theories




And for anyone thinking there is not enough time, maybe they forgot about this event not that long ago.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347297571820118017/


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## User.168

.


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## Gutwrench

P_X said:


> He visited your state to talk about race horses, theories and genes. You like explicit stuff. Here's explicit.




He campaigned in Minnesota and California?


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## Gutwrench

theSeb said:


> So he hates her



Yep. So it’s pretty rich.


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## MarkusL

lizkat said:


> Maybe if she were Norwegian and asked him to resign he'd buy into it?   He wanted more Norwegians in here for some reason.  I am not sure it was a reason that either Norway or Norwegians or Norwegian-Americans had signed off on though.
> 
> And Trump probably didn't expect a Norwegian-American would ever ask him to resign or face impeachment.  I also bet Trump doesn't know that Somalians are the largest African migration group among Norwegian immigrants.
> 
> Be fun to try to round up a Norwegian-Somali-American to support the impeachment articles.  The night is still young.



Fun fact, even the Norwegian nutjob member of parliament who nominates Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize every year is now calling for him to resign. Also, here is a Swedish-American explaining what Scandinavians think about Trump.


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## User.45

Gutwrench said:


> He campaigned in Minnesota and California?



Trump's a racist misogynist?


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## User.45

MarkusL said:


> Fun fact, even the Norwegian nutjob member of parliament who nominates Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize every year is now calling for him to resign. Also, here is a Swedish-American explaining what Scandinavians think about Trump.



I'm really curious how the middle eastern events will unfold once Trump's gone. It was hilarious to see how Netanyahu distanced himself from him the first moment he could


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## Gutwrench

P_X said:


> Trump's a racist misogynist?




Ok....


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## lizkat

MarkusL said:


> what Scandinavians think about Trump




hilarious...  that they hate him... "see we have this relationship with truth..."


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## lizkat

iLunar said:


> I think more and more the truth will emerge that this was an inside job with the Capitol Police, but they failed to prolong the certification. Now that Biden is certified, Trump has very few options, which is why the video of him saving face came out. He's trying to buy time. I really hope the powers that be are a few steps ahead of Trump and any kind of insurgents. Scary times. IMO, he needs to be removed from office immediately.
> 
> And I think there's likely to be a Congressional inquiry. At least there better be. It's time to clean house of insurgents in police departments across the country.
> 
> There's going to be a lot distractions in the coming days like Betsy Devos resigning – why? She was done anyway. She's doing it to eat up a headline. Her and her Blackwater/Haliburton private army family are knee deep in Trump waste. She's not resigning out of the goodness of her heart.
> 
> I know I'm being paranoid, but these last four years have really brought to light what Margerat Atwood wrote about how quickly fascism can spread: "So, no guarantees. No guarantees that things aren’t going to go tits up, quite rapidly.”
> 
> I think it's important to keep shining a light and not be pacified by resignations and people jumping ship. We need to get to the heart of every deplorable and expose their actions. Every behind-the-scenes maneuver by the Trump admin needs to be looked at, documented and countered with law.
> 
> (This is a good read: ‘Things can change a lot faster than you think,’ says Margaret Atwood, author of ‘The Handmaid's Tale’)




One of the reasons the WSJ ran its piece about how trump should step down because it's the cleanest option is concern for the USA viewed as a safe place for foreign investment.    No place run by a fascist lunatic is a safe place for foreign investment, and media are picking up statements that --stripped of their corporate caution-- are raising alarms in Washington and so in the markets about the hundreds of thousand American jobs at the mercy of multinational corporations' decisions on where best to grow their business and bottom lines.  









						Daimler responds: ‘We depend on a reliable and stable political framework.’ (Published 2021)
					






					www.nytimes.com
				




Sure impeachment, conviction and removal are an option if a 25A removal is not feasible.  They do take time and some days are both shorter and longer than others lately, aren't they.

Meanwhile though and to the point of the WSJ piece suggesting that Trump just step down already,  the concern is essentially uncertainty, which markets and their underpinnings --brick and mortar companies with real CEOs and asset prices--  do not like.   And so of course it does not help that there are still members of Congress (including even Senators, namely Hawley and Cruz) playing to Trump's base for their own future prospects, so that adds to the wonderment if there is more unrest ahead.     This is American jobs at stake here and we have morons talking about staging a fucking civil war...

Not unrelated to that are suggestions by Senator Coons and others that Hawley and Cruz resign from the Senate since they seem still to be trying to thread a needle with Trump's base for their own ends.









						Coons calls on Cruz and Hawley to resign
					

The Delaware Democrat said the two Republican senators who mounted challenges to Biden's victory should step down in the aftermath of the deadly riots in D.C.




					www.politico.com


----------



## SuperMatt

lizkat said:


> One of the reasons the WSJ ran its piece about how trump should step down because it's the cleanest option is concern for the USA viewed as a safe place for foreign investment.    No place run by a fascist lunatic is a safe place for foreign investment, and media are picking up statements that --stripped of their corporate caution-- are raising alarms in Washington and so in the markets about the hundreds of thousand American jobs at the mercy of multinational corporations' decisions on where best to grow their business and bottom lines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daimler responds: ‘We depend on a reliable and stable political framework.’ (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure impeachment, conviction and removal are an option if a 25A removal is not feasible.  They do take time and some days are both shorter and longer than others lately, aren't they.
> 
> Meanwhile though and to the point of the WSJ piece suggesting that Trump just step down already,  the concern is essentially uncertainty, which markets and their underpinnings --brick and mortar companies with real CEOs and asset prices--  do not like.   And so of course it does not help that there are still members of Congress (including even Senators, namely Hawley and Cruz) playing to Trump's base for their own future prospects, so that adds to the wonderment if there is more unrest ahead.     This is American jobs at stake here and we have morons talking about staging a fucking civil war...
> 
> Not unrelated to that are suggestions by Senator Coons and others that Hawley and Cruz resign from the Senate since they seem still to be trying to thread a needle with Trump's base for their own ends.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coons calls on Cruz and Hawley to resign
> 
> 
> The Delaware Democrat said the two Republican senators who mounted challenges to Biden's victory should step down in the aftermath of the deadly riots in D.C.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com



I agree with Coons not because they initially brought up the challenges, although I think that was reprehensible enough. It’s the fact that Cruz refused to withdraw his after the riot, and in Hawley’s case, he actually introduced a challenge AFTER the riot. They should be removed as soon as the new Senators are sworn in and VP Harris takes over as president of the Senate.


----------



## Eraserhead

I think the problem with impeachment is that they have to be in Washington DC. So they need to secure the area before they go back. Also if you do it in the week then Congress can’t be protested by people who can only make a weekend.

With regards to inorgaration - that doesn’t need to happen in D.C. - and if they are wise Congress will stay away.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347594734638919681/

Guess Nancy's decided no F's given


----------



## iLunar

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347594734638919681/
> 
> Guess Nancy's decided no F's given




Good.


----------



## lizkat

Eraserhead said:


> I think the problem with impeachment is that they have to be in Washington DC. So they need to secure the area before they go back. Also if you do it in the week then Congress can’t be protested by people who can only make a weekend.
> 
> With regards to inorgaration - that doesn’t need to happen in D.C. - and if they are wise Congress will stay away.




The problems with not impeaching him are that Pence apparently won't 25A him, and Trump apparently won't resign, but he is unfit to govern.

I say apparently because this is an untenable situation so I would assume that things are happening behind scenes. Pelosi being out front on impeachment is part of the visible pressure on Trump to resign.  There has to be more of that happening in private.   Ivanka and Jared...

Maybe while an impeachment article is being debated on the floor of the House of Representatives, either virtually or in person,  someone with a shred of sanity in the Republican party can talk that loon Trump into taping a resignation video that passes muster for a) intent to support the Constitution and so the welfare of the USA and b) clarity again on Biden's certified succession to the presidency and c) no editorials to his presumed base about anything.

As to his base, I'd like to know who all are in it by now.   This whole scenario and its spinoffs seem like an ambience straight out of a wet dream by directors of hostile powers' intel agencies...   and so also for intel agencies of the USA, which one can still only hope are of a single allegiance, i.e. to our Constitution.   Be interesting to know how many double and triple agents are involved at this point.


Yeah the inauguration they all just need to bump elbows on their laptops and keep working on the economic recovery and covid vaccine rollout.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## lizkat

Details on timing and complexities of an impeachment process in this time frame.









						House Democrats eye quick impeachment vote if Pence rebuffs attempt to remove Trump from office
					

Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her leadership team are considering a lightning-quick impeachment process if Vice President Mike Pence and the Cabinet refuse to take unprecedented steps to remove President Donald Trump from office in less than two weeks' time, according to multiple Democratic sources.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## Eraserhead

lizkat said:


> The problems with not impeaching him are that Pence apparently won't 25A him, and Trump apparently won't resign, but he is unfit to govern.
> 
> I say apparently because this is an untenable situation so I would assume that things are happening behind scenes. Pelosi being out front on impeachment is part of the visible pressure on Trump to resign.  There has to be more of that happening in private.   Ivanka and Jared...
> 
> Maybe while an impeachment article is being debated on the floor of the House of Representatives, either virtually or in person,  someone with a shred of sanity in the Republican party can talk that loon Trump into taping a resignation video that passes muster for a) intent to support the Constitution and so the welfare of the USA and b) clarity again on Biden's certified succession to the presidency and c) no editorials to his presumed base about anything.
> 
> As to his base, I'd like to know who all are in it by now.   This whole scenario and its spinoffs seem like an ambience straight out of a wet dream by directors of hostile powers' intel agencies...   and so also for intel agencies of the USA, which one can still only hope are of a single allegiance, i.e. to our Constitution.   Be interesting to know how many double and triple agents are involved at this point.
> 
> 
> Yeah the inauguration they all just need to bump elbows on their laptops and keep working on the economic recovery and covid vaccine rollout.



To be clear I’m pro impeachment. But I think it’s reasonable for them to wait until Monday to gather.


----------



## lizkat

Eraserhead said:


> To be clear I’m pro impeachment. But I think it’s reasonable for them to wait until Monday to gather.





I think it's reasonable for someone to explain to Trump that 57% of Americans want him gone now.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347737540137279489/










						Majority of Americans want Trump removed immediately after U.S. Capitol violence - Reuters/Ipsos poll
					

Fifty-seven percent of Americans want Republican President Donald Trump to be immediately removed from office after he encouraged a protest this week that escalated into a deadly riot inside the U.S. Capitol, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Zoidberg

Unfortunately this impeachment will probably go the same way as the first one.

Even though the situation is even more extreme, from the standpoint of the individual congressmen and senators, the  dynamics haven’t really changed:

The GOP voters are Trump fanatics and any Republican who votes to remove him will get primaried out by whomever the Trump family decides to name as their successor.

Some have shown a spine and a willingness to lose their job rather than letting the US go full crazy, but most won’t.


----------



## SuperMatt

despondentdiver said:


> Unfortunately this impeachment will probably go the same way as the first one.
> 
> Even though the situation is even more extreme, from the standpoint of the individual congressmen and senators, the  dynamics haven’t really changed:
> 
> The GOP voters are Trump fanatics and any Republican who votes to remove him will get primaried out by whomever the Trump family decides to name as their successor.
> 
> Some have shown a spine and a willingness to lose their job rather than letting the US go full crazy, but most won’t.



Murkowski has indicated she would switch parties if Mitch doesn’t take this up, which would put him instantly in the minority, allowing a new majority leader to bring it up.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> Murkowski has indicated she would switch parties if Mitch doesn’t take this up, which would put him instantly in the minority, allowing a new majority leader to bring it up.



Wow that is a power play I never saw coming.


----------



## lizkat

ericgtr12 said:


> Wow that is a power play I never saw coming.




No, me either.  Impressive.    So Mitch will entertain the thing but still try to slow walk it.   At least Murkowski has what a lot of what some guys in that Senate seem to lack and I don't just mean a longer view of the damage this GOP is doing to itself and the country.


----------



## Zoidberg

SuperMatt said:


> Murkowski has indicated she would switch parties if Mitch doesn’t take this up, which would put him instantly in the minority, allowing a new majority leader to bring it up.



It would still probably not reach 2/3 of the senate.


----------



## SuperMatt

Analysis | There’s a reason why Lisa Murkowski can threaten to leave the Republicans — The Washington Post
					

Alaska's new voting system makes it hard for Republicans to punish her.




					apple.news


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.45

despondentdiver said:


> It would still probably not reach 2/3 of the senate.



Still. The impeachment process would force the GOP to put their cards on the deck:
Are they going to officially turn into the Trump party, or are they going to officially break ranks. 
A) They go with Trump, they'll keep a large base, but won't be competitive for national elections as I don't think they'd be able to chip away any more democrat leaning voters with this strategy.
B) They denounce Trump, they lose a large base with an opportunity to rebuild without nazis. But that would take many years of not being competitive.


----------



## Eraserhead

P_X said:


> Still. The impeachment process would force the GOP to put their cards on the deck:
> Are they going to officially turn into the Trump party, or are they going to officially break ranks.
> A) They go with Trump, they'll keep a large base, but won't be competitive for national elections as I don't think they'd be able to chip away any more democrat leaning voters with this strategy.
> B) They denounce Trump, they lose a large base with an opportunity to rebuild without nazis. But that would take many years of not being competitive.



Difficult to know how many GOP voters are nazis. I’d put it at much less than half. Probably more than half the volunteers etc though.


----------



## User.45

Eraserhead said:


> Difficult to know how many GOP voters are nazis. I’d put it at much less than half. Probably more than half the volunteers etc though.



I'd say far less than 5%, but still substantial enough to affect competitiveness in key states (NC, GA, VA, TX, WI, MI, OH). And I agree, they are certainly more active and mobilizable than the classic GOP core.


----------



## SuperMatt

theSeb said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1348026854284943361/
> 
> Also, apparently there was another Georgia call back in December.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump pressured a Georgia elections investigator in a separate call legal experts say could amount to obstruction — The Washington Post
> 
> 
> More than a week before he urged the Georgia secretary of state to overturn the election results, the president spoke to the state’s chief elections fraud investigator and urged the official to find wrongdoing as part of an ongoing inquiry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



Funny how they were willing to overlook the obstruction of justice charges that Robert Mueller handed them on a silver platter because they though it would benefit them.

They were willing to overlook using hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars being used to bribe Ukraine into digging up dirt on the kids of Democratic opponents.

When faced with the ultimate manifestation of Trump-ism, a violent attack in which they personally could have been hurt or killed, they suddenly care about a couple phone calls to Georgia? Frack ‘em all.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Funny how they were willing to overlook the obstruction of justice charges that Robert Mueller handed them on a silver platter because they though it would benefit them.
> 
> They were willing to overlook using hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars being used to bribe Ukraine into digging up dirt on the kids of Democratic opponents.
> 
> When faced with the ultimate manifestation of Trump-ism, a violent attack in which they personally could have been hurt or killed, they suddenly care about a couple phone calls to Georgia? Frack ‘em all.



There's a pattern though. It ain't real unless it hits home.








						Pro-Trump youth group TPUSA deleted a tweet mocking protective masks after its cofounder died of the coronavirus
					

The tweet, a meme mocking "leftists" for advocating protective masks, was posted the same day Bill Montgomery's death was announced.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Zoidberg

P_X said:


> Still. The impeachment process would force the GOP to put their cards on the deck:
> Are they going to officially turn into the Trump party, or are they going to officially break ranks.
> A) They go with Trump, they'll keep a large base, but won't be competitive for national elections as I don't think they'd be able to chip away any more democrat leaning voters with this strategy.
> B) They denounce Trump, they lose a large base with an opportunity to rebuild without nazis. But that would take many years of not being competitive.



Oh, I do understand the strategy behind the move. It's just that it sucks that they are such cowards. It was obvious Trump was going to sink the party, so had they had the guts to cut him loose early on, people would have moved on and they would have survived and the world would be better, but they always took the easy option whenever they had a choice and now the country (and the world) is f***ed for good. My inlaws are always like "You guys should move to the US, you'll find a good job easily". HELL NO.


----------



## User.45

despondentdiver said:


> Oh, I do understand the strategy behind the move. It's just that it sucks that they are such cowards. It was obvious Trump was going to sink the party, so had they had the guts to cut him loose early on, people would have moved on and they would have survived and the world would be better, but* they always took the easy option whenever they had a choice* and now the country (and the world) is f***ed for good. My inlaws are always like "You guys should move to the US, you'll find a good job easily". HELL NO.



Bolded the most important part.


----------



## Zoidberg

P_X said:


> Bolded the most important part.



Yup. They always chose Low effort/short term rewards instead of high effort/long term rewards.


----------



## User.45

despondentdiver said:


> Yup. They always chose Low effort/short term rewards instead of high effort/long term rewards.



From trump through COVID to climate change.


----------



## SuperMatt

I was unaware that the 14th amendment has language that could lead to the removal of members of Congress who incited the Capitol violence:



> ‘‘No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or ju- dicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.’’



At the very least, Josh Hawley qualifies for this, and maybe others too.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Holy crap. Now it sound like McConnell's on board!









						McConnell is said to be pleased about impeachment, believing it will be easier to purge Trump from the G.O.P. (Published 2021)
					






					www.nytimes.com
				






> Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader, has told associates that he believes President Trump committed impeachable offenses and that he is pleased that Democrats are moving to impeach him, believing that it will make it easier to purge him from the party, according to people familiar with his thinking. The House is voting on Wednesday to formally charge Mr. Trump with inciting violence against the country.




Looks like he's had enough of Donald.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

Thomas Veil said:


> Holy crap. Now it sound like McConnell's on board!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> McConnell is said to be pleased about impeachment, believing it will be easier to purge Trump from the G.O.P. (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like he's had enough of Donald.




Paywall article, unfortunately.

But, I would be fascinated to learn just the details of how - when, and why - Mitch McConnell arrived at this conclusion.


----------



## Eraserhead

Scepticalscribe said:


> Paywall article, unfortunately.
> 
> But, I would be fascinated to learn just the details of how - when, and why - Mitch McConnell arrived at this conclusion.




I have always thought getting rid of Trump was in McConnell’s interest.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

Eraserhead said:


> I have always thought getting rid of Trump was in McConnell’s interest.



Yes, indeed, but this is not something he seems to have seen until last Wednesday (January 6, when the mob attacked the Capitol in an attempt to stop the formal certification of Mr Biden's election as President).


----------



## Eraserhead

Scepticalscribe said:


> Yes, indeed, but this is not something he seems to have seen until last Wednesday (January 6, when the mob attacked the Capitol in an attempt to stop the formal certification of Mr Biden's election).



I guess that’s when the other path became impossible.

I mean you can’t see 2018 style turnout for the Democratic party not happening in 2022 without the Republicans moving back towards democracy. Plus all those Latino voters they won over in 2020 because they were scared of coups and then Trump tries one - those people will never vote Republican again without a clean house. And I’d expect the Cubans (who are key in Florida) to hold the same view.

The Republicans could lose 4-5 in the senate fairly easily under that scenario (Wisconsin, Florida, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and maybe Iowa). And would have no hope in the house.

Of course you might get an even worse bloodbath if you impeach and piss off the base, but how much worse is the Dems having 60 in the senate vs 55?


----------



## lizkat

Liz Cheney says she will vote to impeach Trump.

wow.  #3 Republican in the House.

Everyone knows she is a never Trumper, but...  this is big.

breaking from the WaPo.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/12/trump-impeachment-biden-transition-live-updates/


----------



## Thomas Veil

Details from that NYT article...



> Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader, has told associates that he believes President Trump committed impeachable offenses and that he is pleased that Democrats are moving to impeach him, believing that it will make it easier to purge him from the party, according to people familiar with his thinking. The House is voting on Wednesday to formally charge Mr. Trump with inciting violence against the country.
> 
> At the same time, Representative Kevin McCarthy of California, the minority leader and one of Mr. Trump’s most steadfast allies in Congress, has asked other Republicans whether he should call on Mr. Trump to resign in the aftermath of the riot at the Capitol last week, according to three Republican officials briefed on the conversations.
> 
> While Mr. McCarthy has said he is personally opposed to impeachment, he and other party leaders have decided not to formally lobby Republicans to vote “no,” and an aide to Mr. McCarthy said he was open to a measure censuring Mr. Trump for his conduct. In private, Mr. McCarthy reached out to a leading House Democrat to see if the chamber would be willing to pursue a censure vote, though Speaker Nancy Pelosi has ruled it out.
> 
> Taken together, the stances of Congress’s two top Republicans — neither of whom has said publicly that Mr. Trump should resign or be impeached — reflected the politically fraught and fast-moving nature of the crisis that the party faces in the wake of last week’s assault by a pro-Trump mob during a session to formalize President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s electoral victory.
> 
> As more violent images emerged on Tuesday from the mayhem wrought by the rioters, including of the brutal attack that ultimately killed a Capitol Police officer, and as lawmakers were briefed about threats of more attacks on the Capitol, rank-and-file Republican lawmakers grew angrier about the president’s role in the violence.
> 
> Yet as they attempted to balance the affection their core voters have for Mr. Trump with the now-undeniable political and constitutional threat he posed, Republican congressional leaders who have loyally backed the president for four years were still stepping delicately. Their refusal to demand the president’s resignation and quiet plotting about how to address his conduct highlighted the gnawing uncertainty that they and many other Republicans have about whether they would pay more of a political price for abandoning him or for continuing to enable him after he incited a mob to storm the seat of government.
> 
> Making their task more difficult, Mr. Trump has shown no trace of contrition, telling reporters on Tuesday that his remarks to supporters had been “totally appropriate,” and that it was the specter of his impeachment that was “causing tremendous anger.”
> 
> Mr. McConnell, Republican of Kentucky, has indicated that he wants to see the specific article of impeachment that the House is set to approve on Wednesday, which is expected to draw support from as many as a dozen Republicans, potentially including Representative Liz Cheney of Wyoming, the party’s No. 3 in the House. But he has made clear in private discussions that he believes now is the moment to move on from the weakened lame duck, whom he blames for causing Republicans to lose the Senate.
> 
> 
> On Monday, Mr. Biden telephoned Mr. McConnell to ask whether it was possible to set up a dual track that would allow the Senate to confirm Mr. Biden’s cabinet nominees and hold a Senate trial at the same time, according to officials briefed on the conversation who disclosed it on condition of anonymity. Far from avoiding the topic of impeaching Mr. Trump, Mr. McConnell said it was a question for the Senate parliamentarian, and promised Mr. Biden a quick answer.
> 
> David Popp, a spokesman for Mr. McConnell, declined to comment, pointing a reporter to a speech the senator made from the floor after the attack on the Capitol.
> 
> “This failed attempt to obstruct the Congress, this failed insurrection, only underscores how crucial the task before us is for our Republic,” Mr. McConnell said as the Senate reconvened on Wednesday to finish the electoral count disrupted by the siege. “Our nation was founded precisely so that the free choice of the American people is what shapes our self-government and determines the destiny of our nation.”
> 
> In the days since the attack, Mr. McCarthy has veered from asking Republican colleagues if he should call on Mr. Trump to resign to privately floating impeachment to his current posture, opposed to impeachment but open to a censure. He even approached Representative Steny H. Hoyer of Maryland, the majority leader, about a censure vote, saying he could deliver a large number of Republican votes for a formal rebuke if Democrats backed off impeachment.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Heard an interesting conundrum take for the Democrats on the impeachment. They’re going to push it but kind of hope the Republicans block it because it will put them on the wrong side of history and allow Trump to continue with his death blows to the Republican party. Sounds like Mitch might also be thinking about this because if they show any sizable support for Trump then the party will be Trump’s bitch for the foreseeable future. But of course maybe he doesn’t mind being the party of lunatics, liars, and (white) criminals if he thinks that’s a winning ticket. I don’t think he’s that dumb though and is ready to pull down the diapers on Trump’s remaining loyalists and spank their ass black and blue.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

@lizkat & @Thomas Veil: To you both, my grateful thanks for the article.

I do seem to recall thinking (at the time) that Mitch McConnell's horror at what was happening last Wednesday was quite genuine (even if exceptionally belated, and blithely, and blissfuly, blind as to his actual role in enabling the conditions which allowed this to take place).


----------



## Thomas Veil

CNN confirms what you’re saying may very well be the case.


> A source familiar with the relationship between the two men told CNN that McConnell is furious with Trump. The source said McConnell "hates" Trump for what he did last week following the attacks on the Capitol that left at least five people dead including a Capitol Hill police officer.











						McConnell believes impeachment push will help rid Trump from the GOP, but has not said if he will vote to convict
					

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has indicated that he believes that impeaching President Donald Trump will make it easier to get rid of the President and Trumpism from the Republican Party, according to a source with knowledge of the matter.




					www.cnn.com
				




Note that McConnell is not firmly committing to anything, but the fact that he’s seriously considering it...


----------



## lizkat

Scepticalscribe said:


> @lizkat & @Thomas Veil: To you both, my grateful thanks for the article.
> 
> I do seem to recall that Mitch McConnell's horror at what was happening last Wednesday was quite genuine (even if exceptionally belated, and blithely, and blissfuly, blind as to his actual role in enabling the conditions which allowed this to take place).




McConnell is a world class cynic but has had his moments when he has put country before party...  and certainly moments when he has put the establishment piece of the party before the Tea Party and the House Freedom Caucus, although that tended to be before they became less the rump and more the bread and butter of the voting base.   But Trump is trying to burn everything down now and that's a bridge way too far for McConnell.


----------



## Eric

Now Liz Cheney 

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349123762780827648/


----------



## SuperMatt

This is politically calculated. Trump’s popularity took a dive because of this violence. He will be out of power shortly and all his megaphones have been taken away. The Georgia run-off never would have gone to the Democrats without Trump telling people to stay home and turning other people off and agitating Democrats to vote against him. As long as he was popular, they proved time and again they didn’t care what he did. They still don’t care. They are despicable. Kill the filibuster and ram through the progressive policies this country needs!


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

SuperMatt said:


> This is politically calculated. Trump’s popularity took a dive because of this violence. He will be out of power shortly and all his megaphones have been taken away. The Georgia run-off never would have gone to the Democrats without Trump telling people to stay home and turning other people off and agitating Democrats to vote against him. As long as he was popular, they proved time and again they didn’t care what he did. They still don’t care. They are despicable. Kill the filibuster and ram through the progressive policies this country needs!






theSeb said:


> Let’s also not forget that the donation money faucet getting turned off would have been a factor here too,



Agreed, but this is something that is always a matter of consuming interest for idle, enquiring minds:

For we have asked ourselves these questions: Where are the red lines? Your incompetent, corrupt, cynical, entitled children employed in your administration? George Floyd? Institutional racism and sexism? Threatening election officials while demanding that they "find" eleven thousand votes? Children in cages? Stratospheric death rates from Covid?

And, no, alas and alack, it is what it always was: Hurting wallets.......


----------



## Alli

theSeb said:


> i like the choice of words about purging from the party. I am starting to think that Trump is holding the gop hostage.



I’ve always wondered what Trump was holding over the entire Party.


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> I’ve always wondered what Trump was holding over the entire Party.




I'm starting to wonder what this Congressman Taylor has on his person that caused him not to want to pass through metal detectors on the way into vote on the (futile) resolution to request Pence to 25A Trump.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349159510791884800/

Some background about this

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349105421194289153/









						Cawthorn expresses concern about election fraud claims after earlier stoking them
					

The Republican freshman appeared at a rally in front of the White House before the deadly siege on the Capitol.




					www.politico.com


----------



## SuperMatt

lizkat said:


> I'm starting to wonder what this Congressman Taylor has on his person that caused him not to want to pass through metal detectors on the way into vote on the (futile) resolution to request Pence to 25A Trump.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349159510791884800/



F these people. Officers DIED to protect their butts against a riot THEY incited, and now they are doing stuff like this to officers that are probably suppressing PTSD to keep their jobs? I say keep ‘em out if they won’t be searched... period.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> I’ve always wondered what Trump was holding over the entire Party.



It's baffling, isn't it? Sounds like they're ready to drop him like third period French now.


----------



## lizkat

ericgtr12 said:


> It's baffling, isn't it? Sounds like they're ready to drop him like third period French now.





Weird convo with a friend from downstate today.

She was appalled by the scenes she saw on TV a week ago and said yeah they should impeach him.  I suggested calling her congressman and saying so because not all his constituents may agree, and so she should ensure that her own voice is heard.

She said she wasn't sure she wanted to get all *that* involved.

Wow.  It's only a question of whether we want to normalize attacks on sitting governments by a rogue president inciting citizens to go commit violence to prevent a lawful transition of power. 

I looked up her district and it's blue so I'm not going to hammer on her about it but I am disappointed and also surprised!


----------



## Thomas Veil

Don’t Prosecute Gotham’s Supervillains for Their Latest Scheme
					

This is a time for Gotham City to look forward, not backward.




					slate.com
				




I’ll have a ham on wry, please!


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> I'm starting to wonder what this Congressman Taylor has on his person that caused him not to want to pass through metal detectors on the way into vote on the (futile) resolution to request Pence to 25A Trump.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349159510791884800/
> 
> Some background about this
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349105421194289153/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cawthorn expresses concern about election fraud claims after earlier stoking them
> 
> 
> The Republican freshman appeared at a rally in front of the White House before the deadly siege on the Capitol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com



The guy has spine issues.


----------



## Eraserhead

Scepticalscribe said:


> @lizkat & @Thomas Veil: To you both, my grateful thanks for the article.
> 
> I do seem to recall thinking (at the time) that Mitch McConnell's horror at what was happening last Wednesday was quite genuine (even if exceptionally belated, and blithely, and blissfuly, blind as to his actual role in enabling the conditions which allowed this to take place).



I have heard criticism of Pelosi on Twitter that she reacts mostly to short term not long term priorities. If you assume the same applies to McConnell a lot of his behaviour around impeachment makes more sense.


----------



## User.45

Listening to the impeachment deliberations. Republicans are so full of shit, it's insane.
They couldn't clear house, stand up and fucking concede, but not it's Democrat's duty to allow healing?!
Trump shouldn't be impeached because we should heal after 2 months of deliberate, systematic and persistent inflammation of the base about a """stolen""" election to which a significant proportion of the GOP assisted actively and their majority did not express concerns about. 

We shouldn't impeach someone so haphazardly but also the GOP isn't willing to use alternative avenues to control Trump that is in their power?! 

I can't even express my annoyance.


----------



## Huntn

Just listened to Rep Tom Cole (R) Oklahoma make a process argument against impeachment, don’t rush it, and not enough time, saying that it would further the division. At this point, with a rogue, lying, out of control Republican Party, I’d ask him if he has eyes and ears in his head. This last unacceptable heinous over the top move by a desperate wanna-be despot to undermine the 2020 election just can’t be ignored and he continues to be a threat. With the mindset of the GOP breaking bad, breaking every rule they can get away with, undermining our democratic process, there will be no healing period until they get their heads on straight, or start to wholesale lose elections.

Of interest there are some strong anti-Trump statements coming out of the GOP but I imagine this as a fringe move not a broad movement. I was encouraged to hear Mitch McConnell say something like he’d be pleased, but who knows how serious and honest, versus a calculated statement this  is. Liz Cheney who has never liked Trump has hammered him verbally.


----------



## User.45

Republicans screaming "Put the People first!" and "Democrats! Unite the country!"

Wow. Nancy Mace (SC Republican), with the first coherent speech on the R side. Holy shit. I don't know what's more shocking, the coherence or that I'm shocked to hear coherence.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Huntn

Cole’s position is that Trump never said go commit an illegal act. But what was said by speakers at the podium was “_fight, combat, we are coming for you” _and if you follow Trump you know he speaks purposely in code, so later he can say _I never said that. _Reports are that while the assault on the Capital was taking place, Trump was excited, watching it like a football game, no shaken announcements to stop the violence. He’s guilty, he needs to be politically neutered.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Alli

Today will certainly be interesting.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> Listening to the impeachment deliberations. Republicans are so full of shit, it's insane.
> They couldn't clear house, stand up and fucking concede, but not it's Democrat's duty to allow healing?!
> Trump shouldn't be impeached because we should heal after 2 months of deliberate, systematic and persistent inflammation of the base about a """stolen""" election to which a significant proportion of the GOP assisted actively and their majority did not express concerns about.
> 
> We shouldn't impeach someone so haphazardly but also the GOP isn't willing to use alternative avenues to control Trump that is in their power?!
> 
> I can't even express my annoyance.




As Joe Walsh said on his show this is like somebody burning your house down and then stands on your front lawn wanting to shake hands and hug it out saying it's time to heal.  The Republicans have zero leverage.  

Some Congressman reported behind closed doors some Republican Congressmen are in tears fearing for their life if they vote to impeach.  I don't want to say good, but they are all complicit in either promoting Trump's lies or saying nothing about them.  I feel bad for some of them that stood up to Trump a long time ago, but collectively they let this go on for way too long, years.  Not to mention, you think Democrat politicians don't have the same fear?  They're just standing up for what is right and not cowering or whining about the extremists.  I'm sure many extremists will be arrested in the next week and month.  Maybe we should house them in the border detention centers where they can "Now is the time to heal" with the border jumpers.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> Listening to the impeachment deliberations. Republicans are so full of shit, it's insane.
> They couldn't clear house, stand up and fucking concede, but not it's Democrat's duty to allow healing?!
> Trump shouldn't be impeached because we should heal after 2 months of deliberate, systematic and persistent inflammation of the base about a """stolen""" election to which a significant proportion of the GOP assisted actively and their majority did not express concerns about.
> 
> We shouldn't impeach someone so haphazardly but also the GOP isn't willing to use alternative avenues to control Trump that is in their power?!
> 
> I can't even express my annoyance.



Trump could nuke an American city and Republicans would still be like "does it REALLY rise to the level of impeachment?"


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

ericgtr12 said:


> Trump could nuke an American city and Republicans would still be like "does it REALLY rise to the level of impeachment?"




Antifa launched the nukes.


----------



## User.168

.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

theSeb said:


> They would caution that he may nuke another one as the reason to not impeach.




Read a CNN opinion piece saying I guess we shouldn’t have attacked the Japanese after Pearl Harbor or Al Qaida after 9/11 because it could inspire more attacks.

What we’re seeing is a bunch of spineless cunts who have no qualms sending our troops to the slaughter on foreign soil when they can’t even defend democracy verbally on our own soil.


----------



## Eric

theSeb said:


> They would caution that he may nuke another one as the reason to not impeach.



He learned his lesson after nuking LA, we're sure he won't do it again.


----------



## User.168

.


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## User.45

theSeb said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349390567202029569/
> 
> So there is an element of this as we speculated.



If anything, their "fear for safety" just enables this shit. The "patriot" party... I mean they are talking about principles and balls, and they drop their "balls" and forget their principles at the first moment of inconvenience. Interestingly, they didn't worry about the safety issues white supremacists represented when they weren't the targets. 

To quote Omar from the Wire: A man's gotta have a code.

These people have none.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

They can shut these clowns down by just saying "Please enlighten us on how you would proceed if this was Obama, you partisan asshat."  Actually, I'd be just as happy if they just said the "You partisan asshat." part.


----------



## User.168

.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

theSeb said:


> Ken Buck is reading the typical script of far fright concerns. Robert De Niro wanted to punch the president in the face. Socialists in Hollywood. etc. Poor Donnie. It was the socialist bullies that made him lash out basically.



I’ll be good with dropping the impeachment if they let Robert De Niro punch Trump in the face.  

They seriously need a whatsboutism argument rejection button at these hearings.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

All of the Democrats at the hearing should be wearing “Fuck your feelings” Trump rally t-shirts.


----------



## Alli

I just listened to Matt Gaetz speak. Christ on a bloody crutch. He’s still crying that Trump was right, that the election was stolen, and blah h blah Biden crime family. I’m now violently throwing up.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

Yes, I am following this with undisguised fascination and interest.


----------



## User.45

McCarthy almost got my heart bleeding for him. IMHO only those have the moral position to advocate for unity who accepted the election results. McCarthy isn't one of them:

_"House minority leader Rep. Kevin McCarthy of California has gotten behind an effort by the attorney general of Texas to have the Supreme Court overturn the election."_

At least he's eloquent. Boebert doesn't even have that.


----------



## Thomas Veil

I think Rep. Dan Newhouse (R) surprised Jim Jordan by saying emphatically that he will vote *for *impeachment.


----------



## Huntn

Alli said:


> I just listened to Matt Gaetz speak. Christ on a bloody crutch. He’s still crying that Trump was right, that the election was stolen, and blah h blah Biden crime family. I’m now violently throwing up.



The Congressional Trump Shit Heads are not only nauseating, but are a serious danger to this Republic. If Trump had shot an innocent bystander on 5th Avenue, these people would be talking about the need to debate if the bystander deserved it.  

Listening to the Republican spectacle in Congress, my god, after all of this Trump shit, they are doubling down on an untenable position, rationalization,  implying Democrats are the indirect cause of the assault on the Capital building. I listened to one guy on the radio (Republican, did not catch his name) talk about toxic retoric, and setting aside difference to come together.

THIS coming from the most toxic political party of our lifetimes, whose idea of coming together is the other side (Democrats) must concede their position, ignore sedition, ignore what was said at the _Stop the Steal Rally, _ignore what the Nation‘s eyes and ears saw, basically ignore the truth of the matter to make the GOP happy.

They stand there acting like the injured party when they have been the enablers, aggressively assisting, projecting, rationalizing, equivalence making to promote the most corrupt Individual to occupy the office of POTUS in our lifetimes.

If these people actually represent a sizable portion of the country, WE ARE SCREWED as a Nation.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> I just listened to Matt Gaetz speak. Christ on a bloody crutch. He’s still crying that Trump was right, that the election was stolen, and blah h blah Biden crime family. I’m now violently throwing up.



I just can't stomach the guy enough to watch.


----------



## Zoidberg

SuperMatt said:


> all his *magaphones* have been taken away.



FTFY


----------



## User.45

My summary is that the only legitimate point the GOP has is that this seems rushed and there may be other details that would change our interpretation.

Now for such opinion to be justified I'd expect 3 4 things from each of them:
1. They should have condemned Wednesday's events explicitly
2. Not attempt to draw false equivalencies between BLM and the Capitol's siege
3. They should have explicitly accepted the results of the election after the recounts were completed.
4. They should have voiced their disagreement with Trump's attempt to overturn the election once the results were certified

This makes the list of Republicans who have the moral high ground very very very short.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Alli

Some of these Republicans are so out there, they’re either making shit up, or obfuscating so much that if they are trying to actually make a point it’s lost.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> Some of these Republicans are so out there, they’re either making shit up, or obfuscating so much that if they are trying to actually make a point it’s lost.



I would really prefer to watch news coverage of it than the hearing itself. We know what they outcome will be.


----------



## Alli

ericgtr12 said:


> I would really prefer to watch news coverage of it than the hearing itself. We know what they outcome will be.



I think everyone should watch some of it, just so we know how crazy some of these guys are.

Steve Scalise, who has already been shot has just given kudos to the police, getting a standing ovation from both sides.

But he still doesn’t understand that it’s not about removing Trump, but about punishing wrong-doing.


----------



## User.168

.


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## Eric

Alli said:


> I think everyone should watch some of it, just so we know how crazy some of these guys are.
> 
> Steve Scalise, who has already been shot has just given kudos to the police, getting a standing ovation from both sides.
> 
> But he still doesn’t understand that it’s not about removing Trump, but about punishing wrong-doing.



I think we've seen how Republicans are over the last 4 years, nearly ever single one of them would throw their own mother under a bus to kiss Trump's ring. Just watching them continue to act like this after their terror attacks is even more infuriating, I don't see how we're learning anything new here today.


----------



## lizkat

ericgtr12 said:


> I think we've seen how Republicans are over the last 4 years, nearly ever single one of them would throw their own mother under a bus to kiss Trump's ring. Just watching them continue to act like this after their terror attacks is even more infuriating, I don't see how we're learning anything new here today.




My concern going forward is that this 2nd impeachment remains just the beginning of consequence for all those having had a part in attack on the core of our government under its (and our) own roof.

There is no excuse save greed and power-lust for the leaders of the Republican Party not to have forfeited the "upside" of a Trump who was attracting some new blood to their political base in a time when their prospects for winning national elections was on the wane.

The downsides of rolling the dice on being able to control Trump were well demonstrated in advance by the principal himself and widely cautioned about by professionals in academia (history, political science, medicine) as well as by mental health care providers including ER and psych nurses.  All of them warned of an ugly ending.

Yet even as the 2020 elections loomed  --with Trump triangulating his path among fans, real or perceived opponents and his own party's officials--  the Republicans focused merely on how to win... and whether to put daylight between themselves and the President or to appear to embrace him. 

They took their cues from allegiances of constituents in given districts and literally paid no mind to what Trump was doing, far less to whatever his agenda-ridden manipulators and lackeys were doing in the scrum for power in the executive branch itself.   So their negligence of other matters including allegiance to the Constitution of the administration and even that of their own fellow members of Congress has contributed to the lasting damage done by Trump and his inbuilt (and accelerating) unfitness to serve us.

In short the effect was typically that of a entire family made dysfunctional by having dealt with a severely impaired narcissist for an extended period    









						What happens when a narcissist loses?
					

Salon spoke to psychologists about how a malignant narcissistic personality would react to a devastating blow to their ego like an election loss




					www.salon.com
				




And, so here we are.  Yet the Republican Party's official leadership, still somehow thinking itself beholden to Trump and his authoritarian followers, had only last week signaled its intent to let The Don carry their standard forward to the midterms and 2024.   If their enthusiasm was just play acting there, perhaps out fear of their own base, the few old guard members present weren't having it.  Haley Barbour was quoted as saying the Republican Party is "whistling past the graveyard".  

If that was true early last week, by now it's practically an epitaph.  It's a sorry state of affairs when a choice seems made between losing a party out of simple fear and losing it out of craven lust to retain power.


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> I think everyone should watch some of it, just so we know how crazy some of these guys are.
> 
> Steve Scalise, who has already been shot has just given kudos to the police, getting a standing ovation from both sides.
> 
> But he still doesn’t understand that it’s not about removing Trump, but about punishing wrong-doing.




I'm enjoying Steny Hoyer's wrap, that's for sure.


----------



## Zoidberg

Huntn said:


> Cole’s position is that Trump never said go commit an illegal act. But what was said by speakers at the podium was “_fight, combat, we are coming for you” _and if you follow Trump you know he speaks purposely in code, so later he can say _I never said that. _Reports are that while the assault on the Capital was taking place, Trump was excited, watching it like a football game, no shaken announcements to stop the violence. He’s guilty, he needs to be politically neutered.



More than a report, here's the video with that Guilfoyle skank dancing:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1347303958679875589/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

theSeb said:


> "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
> 
> That's what is happening is here and that's been the majority of Trump's strategy. Fake news. Election fraud etc.




You forgot to mention that quote was from Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels. But hey, can’t make any Nazi comparisons. Keep things civilized.

In a semi-related note, it’s being speculated that Trump’s appearance at the Alamo yesterday was a thinly veiled sign to his militant supporters given the historical military and Mexican fighting significance of the Alamo.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## lizkat

A look back at member's speeches before the impeachment vote....  this one will stick in my head.   Cori Bush didn't come to mince words.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349431873970311171/


----------



## Scepticalscribe

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> You forgot to mention that quote was from Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels. But hey, can’t make any Nazi comparisons. Keep things civilized.



The thing with the Nazi comparison is that they are so often overdone, or over-used, and that cheapens, demans, and devalues the power of the insult.

And, sometimes, it is excessive; not every political outrage merits describing someone as a Nazi.

So, there is a element of intellectual laziness - and, historical sloppiness - in reaching for a term that has almost beocme a cliché.

Moreover, in one of the places where I have worked - Georgia (Caucasus Georgia, that is) the first (not the last) political insult that was reached for in heated political debate was "Hitler", or "Nazi".

Having said all of that, there are occasions where the use of this term to describe a contemporary action or thought, is entirely appropriate.


Chew Toy McCoy said:


> In a semi-related note, it’s being speculated that Trump’s appearance at the Alamo yesterday was a thinly veiled sign to his militant supporters given the historical military and Mexican fighting significance of the Alamo.



That is why I asked here, yesterday, which Alamo?  Or, rather, whether Mr Trump had headed to, and arrived at, the correct, or the right, Alamo.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

theSeb said:


> I didn’t feel the need to state the obvious in educated company.




But we're trying to grow the forum and the only way to make a serious dent in that growth is to welcome the ignorant and hope they learn something.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

lizkat said:


> A look back at member's speeches before the impeachment vote....  this one will stick in my head.   Cori Bush didn't come to mince words.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349431873970311171/




Joe Walsh recently explained Jim Jordon after working closely with him in Congress. They used to be good colleagues fighting for the same things until Trump. Basically Jim Jordon has a frat boy jock brain that only operates on one level. “My team good. Other team bad. My coach/President always right.  Period.”


----------



## JayMysteri0

Yeah, pretty much sums it up...
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349372889242497026/


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## lizkat

Huntn said:


> Of interest there are some strong anti-Trump statements coming out of the GOP but I imagine this as a fringe move not a broad movement. I was encouraged to hear Mitch McConnell say something like he’d be pleased, but who knows how serious and honest, versus a calculated statement this is. Liz Cheney who has never liked Trump has hammered him verbally.




The point here though is that this is the *Congressional leadership* of the GOP, such as there actually is any of it left in the traditional American sense of that, phrase, getting on the record as in favor of the impeachment. They are not whipping the vote per se but they are giving permission to vote conscience. Kevin McCarthy is a lackey of the pro Trumpers in the House. Liz Cheney is #3 there. McConnell has carefully had someone let the press know he favors impeachment so he's signaling no retribution at campaign time from the establishment wing of the party.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Scepticalscribe said:


> The thing with the Nazi comparison is that they are so often overdone, or over-used, and that cheapens, demans, and devalues the power of the insult.
> 
> And, sometimes, it is excessive; not every political outrage merits describing someone as a Nazi.
> 
> So, there is a element of intellectual laziness - and historical sloppiness - in reaching for a term that has almost beocme a cliché.
> 
> Moreover, in one of the places where I have worked - Georgia (Caucasus Georgia, that is) the first (not the last) political insult that was reached for in heated political debate was "Hitler", or "Nazi".
> 
> Having said all of that, there are occasions where the use of this term to describe a contemporary action or thought, is entirely appropriate.
> 
> That is why I asked here, yesterday, which Aamo?  Or, rather, whether Mr Trump had headed to, and arrived at, the correct, or the right, Alamo.





I agree it's overused, and especially by the historical lazy.  There are a lot of little boys who cried Hitler.  I have faith there will be at least 1 quality documentary made about the startling similarities to the Hitler and Trump administrations and those who supported them.  (Please God, don't let it be Michael Moore).


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349406658426900480/

Grow some ovaries b- es!!   You don't like the threats, neither did the Squad, but you were okay with threats then.

Welcome to YOUR NOW real world.  Do your job!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349369689227603968/
Mission accomplished!  Great work!  Hope they enjoyed the fruits of their labor.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

theSeb said:


> Sometimes it’s best to just call a spade a spade. The extraordinary number of parallels are impossible to ignore. I’ve read interesting opinions from political scholars over the years about how we should not call Trump a fascist quite yet and grew increasingly frustrated. Even if we just consider the microcosm of MR, the brazenly open racism is unlike anything I’ve ever seen before and I spent the majority of my youth in a country that perfected institutionalised apartheid as it tried to open its eyes staring at the rising sun of a possibly different future. I find it frustrating that we seem to learn nothing from history.
> 
> View attachment 2697





Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I agree it's overused, and especially by the historical lazy.  There are a lot of little boys who cried Hitler.  I have faith there will be at least 1 quality documentary made about the startling similarities to the Hitler and Trump administrations and those who supported them.  (Please God, don't let it be Michael Moore).



In this instance - the resemblance of some the characteristics of the administration and person of Mr Trump - (after some initial reluctance, and distaste), I think it (a comparison with elements of Fascism, or Nazism) entirely warranted.

I merely think it is intellectually lazy, and sloppy history, (and this also devalues the power of the term when it is used properly as an insult, or description) if it is casually, and lazily, and carelessly, tossed around without much thought, when other terms, or adjectives, or metaphors might more exactly and precisely express what needs to be said.



theSeb said:


> And he’s impeached



Excellent!


----------



## Thomas Veil

It's done. He's the first president to be impeached twice.









						The House just voted to impeach President Trump. Here's what happens next.
					

House Democrats will debate and hold a vote Wednesday to impeach President Trump for his role in inciting the deadly Capitol attack as President-elect Joe Biden prepares to take office. Follow here for the latest.




					www.cnn.com
				






> The House has just voted to impeach President Trump for the second time – making him the only US president to ever be impeached twice. The resolution passed 232 to 197.
> 
> The impeachment resolution the House voted on charges Trump with a single article, "incitement of insurrection" for his role in last week's deadly Capitol riot.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Scepticalscribe said:


> In this instance - the resemblance of some the characteristics of the administration and person of Mr Trump - (after some initial reluctance, and distaste), I think it (a comparison with elements of Fascism, or Nazism) entirely warranted.
> 
> I merely think it is intelectually lazy, and sloppy history, (and this also devalues the power of the term when it is used properly as an insult, or description) if it is casually, and lazily, and carelessly, tossed around without much thought, when other terms, or adjectives, or metaphors might more exactly and precisely express what needs to be said.
> 
> 
> Excellent!




I think we can blame the Seinfeld soup Nazi.

Not to beat a dead horse, and we seem to be in agreement about Trump, but with Trump there is a lot of predictable “then this will happen” that actually does happen when using Hitler’s rise as a comparison.  So it’s far more then just an act or two in the moment of that act.  Also there are also similar things Trump would have done but couldn’t because our other branches of government managed to hold him back.


----------



## Thomas Veil

I watched some of the arguments but had to turn it off after a while. It was nauseating.

The Republicans' defenses consisted of:

It's too quick, what about hearings?
Democrats are hypocrites because they say mean things to Mitch McConnell in restaurants
Portland!
Let's focus on unity
What's the point?
To which I answer:

The entire world saw what happened. What will hearings prove that we didn't see with our own eyes?
Poor sweet babies
Yeah, defacing federal buildings is wrong, but tell me how the protesters (Antifa? Proud Boys? Neither?) threatened to take over a branch of government in the service of trying to overturn an election
Try saying this to any grieving widow. "I'm sorry your husband was killed, ma'am, but instead of prosecuting the killer, let's talk about healing, okay?"
The point is the man is evil and nucking futz and needs to be out of there.
Matt Gaetz...gaaah. he's among the worst of them. He's such an asshole. He's only got two speeds: smug and self-righteous.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Thomas Veil said:


> I watched some of the arguments but had to turn it off after a while. It was nauseating.
> 
> The Republicans' defenses consisted of:
> 
> It's too quick, what about hearings?
> Democrats are hypocrites because they say mean things to Mitch McConnell in restaurants
> Portland!
> Let's focus on unity
> What's the point?
> To which I answer:
> 
> The entire world saw what happened. What will hearings prove that we didn't see with our own eyes?
> Poor sweet babies
> Yeah, defacing federal buildings is wrong, but tell me how the protesters (Antifa? Proud Boys? Neither?) threatened to take over a branch of government in the service of trying to overturn an election
> Try saying this to any grieving widow. "I'm sorry your husband was killed, ma'am, but instead of prosecuting the killer, let's talk about healing, okay?"
> The point is the man is evil and nucking futz and needs to be out of there.
> Matt Gaetz...gaaah. he's among the worst of them. He's such an asshole. He's only got two speeds: smug and self-righteous.




To add to your response list, if we can't impeach a president for this then what can we impeach them for?  What's the future deterrent if nothing is done?

I like how some Republicans think this is just about what he said just prior to storming the capitol, as if his supporters were just standing there and went "Wait.  What did he just say?? I haven't heard about this before! That's not right!  Let's roll!"

If they believe that then they'd probably also believe that Jim Jones welcomed new members into his congregation with a paper cup, labeled baggie of cyanide, and a note that said "Drink when instructed."


----------



## Scepticalscribe

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I think we can blame the Seinfeld soup Nazi.
> 
> Not to beat a dead horse, and we seem to be in agreement about Trump, but with Trump there is a lot of predictable “then this will happen” that actually does happen when using Hitler’s rise as a comparison.  So it’s far more then just an act or two in the moment of that act.  Also there are also similar things Trump would have done but couldn’t because our other branches of government managed to hold him back.




Seinfeld soup Nazi?

You've lost me.  

(I'm not American, so many culturally specific references go right over my head.)

Anyway, - if last week (January 6) we thought that this was both both grotesquely comical and profoundly ugly, it now appears in a far more sinister light.  

The strangely well equipped insurrectionists, the provision of detailed and accurate maps, zip ties (hm), panic buttons that somehow didn't work, police support and national guard support that was denied or inexplicably not provided, advance tours........methinks that plausible deniability is becoming more difficult by the day.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349406658426900480/
> 
> Grow some ovaries b- es!!   You don't like the threats, neither did the Squad, but you were okay with threats then.
> 
> Welcome to YOUR NOW real world.  Do your job!
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349369689227603968/
> Mission accomplished!  Great work!  Hope they enjoyed the fruits of their labor.



There‘s a word for people that are too scared to stand up for what they supposedly believe in....

....

COWARD​


----------



## thekev

Scepticalscribe said:


> Seinfeld soup Nazi?
> 
> You've lost me.
> 
> (I'm not American, so many culturally specific references go right over my head.)
> 
> Anyway, - if last week (January 6) we thought that this was both both grotesquely comical and profoundly ugly, it now appears in a far more sinister light.
> 
> The strangely well equipped insurrectionists, the provision of detailed and accurate maps, zip ties (hm), panic buttons that somehow didn't work, police support and national guard support that was denied or inexplicably not provided, advance tours........methinks that plausible deniability is becoming more difficult by the day.




It's a pretty old cultural reference, from the 1990s. The premise was that a particular character served really great soup, yet maintained an absurdly strict level of control over transactions within his restaurant, arbitrarily banning anyone who dared to question him. Here's the first clip. The overall episode and subsequent references build up to this a bit more.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Scepticalscribe said:


> The strangely well equipped insurrectionists, the provision of detailed and accurate maps, zip ties (hm), panic buttons that somehow didn't work, police support and national guard support that was denied or inexplicably not provided, advance tours........methinks that plausible deniability is becoming more difficult by the day.



A guy on MSNBC is saying even though the Secret Service, Capitol police et al are reassuring everyone that they have beefed up security to meet any violent protests, all these agencies _are not sure who within their internal organization they can trust_.

Suppose you had specific plans on how to cover access points. What if a Trump sympathizer passes that information on to the Three Percenters, allowing them to counter-plan?

The same guy says the FBI and others are deeply concerned about this. Who can they trust?

Oh yeah...internal political threats are not confined to books and movies anymore.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> If anything, their "fear for safety" just enables this shit. The "patriot" party... I mean they are talking about principles and balls, and they drop their "balls" and forget their principles at the first moment of inconvenience. Interestingly, they didn't worry about the safety issues white supremacists represented when they weren't the targets.
> 
> To quote Omar from the Wire: A man's gotta have a code.
> 
> These people have none.



Total cowards. They act tough, talk about their guns, tell people to be “patriots” but they can’t even vote their (supposed) conscience? I call BS. They are trying to have their cake and eat it too. “I can be on record as pro-Trump when the next House election happens, but I also told somebody to pass along second-hand that I only did it out of fear... there I covered both my bases....”


----------



## lizkat

Thomas Veil said:


> A guy on MSNBC is saying even though the Secret Service, Capitol police et al are reassuring everyone that they have beefed up security to meet any violent protests, all these agencies _are not sure who within their internal organization they can trust_.
> 
> Suppose you had specific plans on how to cover access points. What if a Trump sympathizer passes that information on to the Three Percenters, allowing them to counter-plan?
> 
> The same guy says the FBI and others are deeply concerned about this. Who can they trust?
> 
> Oh yeah...internal political threats are not confined to books and movies anymore.




Yeah so imagine Ayanna Pressley, her husband and her staffer last week, when realizing the panic button unit was gone and somehow reporting it.  So when some capitol police officer shows up he or she says _ok yeah this is not good so we're gonna move you guys to someplace safer,  come along now. _ That Globe piece said they were moved several times.


----------



## lizkat

theSeb said:


> Meanwhile back at the ranch
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349497141295767554/




You know what that reminds me of...   when the RNC schooled Trump during his 2016 campaign after a week of his trashing McCain and Ryan and New Hampshire's Kelly Ayotte...   he went out there and delivered just about the most incredible -- in the old sense, that is to say:  not credible--  endorsement of all three of them,  and couldn't even do that without starting to ad lib and head back towards trouble.    But the tone and delivery were the real message, not  the script they gave him.

He pitched it to his actual base,  and it was about "y'all realize they are making me do this, right?"










						Donald Trump Finally Endorses Paul Ryan, John McCain in Bid for Party Unity
					

After a bruising week of controversies and suffering rebukes of some within his own party, Trump, it appears is changing his strategy.




					www.nbcnews.com
				




But...  sigh...  it was sufficient for the RNC not to make good on their threat to turn off the money flow to his campaign.

So many missed opportunities to say *y*_*a know what this guy is more trouble than he's gonna be worth.*_


----------



## lizkat

Thomas Veil said:


> It's done. He's the first president to be impeached twice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The House just voted to impeach President Trump. Here's what happens next.
> 
> 
> House Democrats will debate and hold a vote Wednesday to impeach President Trump for his role in inciting the deadly Capitol attack as President-elect Joe Biden prepares to take office. Follow here for the latest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com




Twitter now making a thing out of 232 votes to impeach him and the 232 electoral votes he got.

Imagine if his full Q contingent and other supporting cast and he were still free to comment on this.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349475445197176832/
Too soon?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

lizkat said:


> Imagine if his full Q contingent and other supporting cast and he were still free to comment on this.




They're currently too busy putting on their tactical diapers and steam pressing their buffalo hides.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Fox News doing some administrative work for death threat activists.









						These are the 10 Republicans who voted to impeach Trump
					

Ten House Republicans joined Democrats in voting to convict President Trump of “incitement of an insurrection,” making him the first president in U.S. history to be impeached twice.




					www.foxnews.com
				




I'm sure Hannity's show tonight will be dedicated to giving their home addresses and where their kids go to school.  Last Wednesday is ancient history.  Nothing to worry about.


----------



## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Fox News doing some administrative work for death threat activists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the 10 Republicans who voted to impeach Trump
> 
> 
> Ten House Republicans joined Democrats in voting to convict President Trump of “incitement of an insurrection,” making him the first president in U.S. history to be impeached twice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure Hannity's show tonight will be dedicated to giving their home addresses and where their kids go to school.  Last Wednesday is ancient history.  Nothing to worry about.



Yep, nobody deserves that no matter how they voted or what party they belong to. It's something we should all agree on.


----------



## lizkat

197 Republicans feared their own constituents more than breaking an oath to uphold our rule of law.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349495568352092162/


----------



## SuperMatt

lizkat said:


> 197 Republicans feared their own constituents more than breaking an oath to uphold our rule of law.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349495568352092162/



They are weak and pathetic. Nancy Pelosi gets more threats per day than they got in their whole life. Their tough guy act is just that, an act. I saw a Republican who voted to impeach Trump on TV today. Guess what? He put his life on the line in the military, so the threats from trailer park terrorists didn’t faze him a bit.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Reality sometimes eludes some
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349501231362924551/


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349475089788661760/


----------



## Yoused

"*I have the most impeachments. A tremendous amount of impeachments. People are saying they’ve never seen this many impeachments.*"

This is the sort of thing we have missed by him being banned from twitter.



(and, yes, I stole that from elsewhere)


----------



## lizkat

Not sure what the reason for the not-voting count on the bill was, but all 4 were Republicans.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349483915745128452/


----------



## lizkat

Yoused said:


> This is the sort of thing we have missed by him being banned from twitter.




I can hardly wait to be used to missing even more of whatever a former and twice-impeached president Donald Trump has to say to the planet.  All I want to know really is how he pleads to charges or responds to questions asked in depositions.


----------



## samcraig

Trump's having a bad day - Snapchat booted him off too


----------



## Yoused

Is he still on Grindr?


----------



## lizkat

What he is, is crazy.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349552838804987904/


----------



## lizkat

samcraig said:


> Trump's having a bad day - Snapchat booted him off too




where the heck have you been?!


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

Quite a dramatic fall and I would imagine most Americans are pleased to see karma finally taking its place. 

Who would have thought giving the worlds biggest arsehole one of the most powerful jobs in the world, would end so badly?


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

I mean here in Britain we have our fair share of political cock ups, but viewing the US at the moment it’s another level. Every viewpoint seems to have the mud slinging of liberal, democrat, republican buzz words attached to it. How about the President has acted poorly for his entire 4 year term and needs to take responsibility for that? False this and false that bollocks just don’t cut it.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Thomas Veil

lizkat said:


> What he is, is crazy.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349552838804987904/



You're kidding! Trump wanted to go to the House floor during the impeachment to defend himself? 

In theory that would have been primo theatre of the absurd. In practice it would've been one more chance for him to rally his zombie army.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349577038156361730/


----------



## Thomas Veil

Looks like the far right has been kicked off Telegram and Zello as well.


----------



## Arkitect

theSeb said:


> Indeed, although *with Bojo in charge we cannot really claim any high ground*.



 100%

Let's not forget who _Pfeffel the Oven Ready_ buddied up to.


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

theSeb said:


> Indeed, although with Bojo in charge we cannot really claim any high ground.



Indeed although we could have Corbyn and Abbot running this shit show now though which gives me the shivers lol. One positive of that though is Dianne is known for massively underestimating important figures so our death toll would be much less .


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## samcraig

theSeb said:


> Magas have reacted well to the news.
> 
> View attachment 2714




Yes. The fuck your feelings crowd certainly has a lot of feelings


----------



## Arkitect

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> Indeed although we could have Corbyn and Abbot running this shit show now though which gives me the shivers lol.* One positive of that though is Dianne is known for massively underestimating important figures so our death toll would be much less .*



Sure, let's joke about people dying.
Ha fucking ha.


----------



## samcraig

My "ban" from MR is over in March.  Should my first post back be "So - is Trump still President?"


----------



## JayMysteri0

samcraig said:


> My "ban" from MR is over in March.  Should my first post back be "So - is Trump still President?"



Or, "I'm ready to retake our country, where's everybody at?  I looked on Parler, but..."


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Eraserhead

SuperMatt said:


> There‘s a word for people that are too scared to stand up for what they supposedly believe in....
> 
> ....
> 
> COWARD​




i think actually I disagree with AOC on this. She may have had more threats but the GOP is much more vulnerable to those threats.


----------



## JayMysteri0

From the "wish I thought of this" department

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349476958950871045/

"Thanks Obama!!!"


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

Arkitect said:


> Sure, let's joke about people dying.
> Ha fucking ha.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

theSeb said:


> From the 20th I am personally planning on trolling all of you, because that's how we are apparently.
> 
> It's  surreal to read about this irrational fear of others' hatred when you are spreading the message of hatred. Can they not see the sad irony and the juxtaposition of what they are saying? I think they genuinely believe that Trump is the messenger of peace and love.
> 
> We are not rid of the red hatters in the US, or the rest of their irksome brethren in Europe. They are emboldened and ready to fight. I saw something pop up on my news alerts about the blow to the far fright in the UK because of Parler going down. Good fucking riddance to bad rubbish.




The frequent complete lack of irony within the right is hilarious. I’m still laughing about the pundit I saw on Fox News recently ranting on how the Democrats don’t care about the constitution and law and order, and this was after the 1/6 riot.


----------



## Renzatic

samcraig said:


> My "ban" from MR is over in March.  Should my first post back be "So - is Trump still President?"




#TRUMP2024! HE'S STILL OUR PRESIDENT IN OUR HEARTS!


----------



## Scepticalscribe

samcraig said:


> My "ban" from MR is over in March.  Should my first post back be "So - is Trump still President?"




Did we manage to get the election over-turned yet?


----------



## Thomas Veil

theSeb said:


> Please do not ban me, but I often vote conservative.



If you're serious, _please_ don't worry about that. This is not MR, and besides, voting is way outside the scope of forum moderation. 



Scepticalscribe said:


> Did we manage to get the election over-turned yet?



No, but I'm sure Trump is over-turning a few tables at the White House.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## JayMysteri0

When you are out of options
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349798446853664769/


----------



## lizkat

JayMysteri0 said:


> When you are out of options
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349798446853664769/




Heh, maybe that's what left Fox at least briefly speechless in the chyron dept.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349801296782618630/


----------



## fooferdoggie

JayMysteri0 said:


> When you are out of options
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349798446853664769/



well not paying them does not help either.


----------



## JayMysteri0

fooferdoggie said:


> well not paying them does not help either.



If you hear it from 45 & his supporters, that's what a smart businessman does.


----------



## samcraig

fooferdoggie said:


> well not paying them does not help either.




Hey - Rudy was paid Pro-Boner!


----------



## Thomas Veil

theSeb said:


> I wasn't serious about the banning part.



You know, you can get banned for that. This is your first warning.


----------



## Zoidberg

Thomas Veil said:


> You know, you can get banned for that. This is your first warning.



"Discussing moderation is a bannable offense".


----------



## Thomas Veil

Well I'm tired of discussing extremism.


----------



## Alli

JayMysteri0 said:


> When you are out of options
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349798446853664769/



He is definitely well and truly fucked.


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> You forgot to mention that quote was from Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels. But hey, can’t make any Nazi comparisons. Keep things civilized.
> 
> In a semi-related note, it’s being speculated that Trump’s appearance at the Alamo yesterday was a thinly veiled sign to his militant supporters given the historical military and Mexican fighting significance of the Alamo.



I thought it was Alamo, Texas to brag about his little wall... that we paid for.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> When you are out of options
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1349798446853664769/



Jim Jordan is one of Trump’s biggest mouthed, enabler, liar, lap dogs in competition with Guiliani to be Trump’s number one.


----------



## Renzatic

Huntn said:


> Jim Jordan is one of Trump’s biggest mouthed, enabler, liar lap dog in competition with Guiliani to be Trump’s number one.




Hope he's smart enough to ask for payment up front.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

It's being reported that Trump is having problems finding lawyers to defend him for the impeachment trial.    

The poetic justice train still rolling strong.  I almost want to thank the insurrectionists for this massive gift that wouldn't be possible without their efforts.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Now some of the people who stormed the capitol are unintentionally throwing Trump under the bus. I say unintentionally because they seem to be low level people who just meandered around inside the building but said they did so because “My president said…” or “We headed over there right after he told us to.” like it was their patriotic right and duty. They were proudly doing what he told them to. In admitting this I’m sure they are unaware they are also saying his speech that day did incite them. So much for the excuse that it was just extremists that had been planning it out for weeks or months.


----------



## User.45

theSeb said:


> Judge calls Capitol siege 'violent insurrection,' orders man who wore horns held
> 
> 
> A federal judge on Friday ordered a far-right conspiracy theorist who left an ominous note for Vice President Mike Pence inside the U.S. Capitol to be detained pending trial, saying he participated in a "violent insurrection."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reut.rs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No 'direct evidence' of plot to kidnap or kill lawmakers in U.S. Capitol attack: Justice Department official
> 
> 
> A U.S. Justice Department official on Friday said there is currently no direct evidence of efforts to capture or assassinate lawmakers in the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reut.rs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> top is the original story that has now changed. I normally walk around with heavy duty zip ties and guns to protect myself from squirrels. Maybe I don’t understand what direct evidence is
> 
> View attachment 2771




Next line of defense: these guys were only screaming  HANG MY PANTS! because they pissed themselves and desperately needed help to dry their clothing.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Aww, someone think of poor Wimsy...



> Sen. Lindsey Graham pens a letter to new Majority Leader Chuck Schumer urging him to dismiss the article of impeachment against President Trump



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350836851259682817/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350842234380443655/
Yup,   THAT pretty much sums it up.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

JayMysteri0 said:


> Aww, someone think of poor Wimsy...
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350836851259682817/
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350842234380443655/
> Yup,   THAT pretty much sums it up.




I'd really like to know the the mentality of the people who keep voting him into office.  His complete lack of spine and consistency is pretty extraordinary.  He's like one peg above a pet whose loyalty is just to whoever gives them food in the moment.  And even then those pets probably have more political integrity.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I'd really like to know the the mentality of the people who keep voting him into office.  His complete lack of spine and consistency is pretty extraordinary.  He's like one peg above a pet whose loyalty is just to whoever gives them food in the moment.  And even then those pets probably have more political integrity.



Having been to South Carolina and spent time with people there, there are lots of retirees who have very strong political opinions, which basically boil down to: PWN THE LIBZ. It feels very tribal.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> Having been to South Carolina and spent time with people there, there are lots of retirees who have very strong political opinions, which basically boil down to: PWN THE LIBZ. It feels very tribal.




I feel like (hope) with the new extremism in politics more young people will be voting.  For probably my entire lifetime it's been old people who decide the outcome of elections.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> Aww, someone think of poor Wimsy...
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350836851259682817/
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350842234380443655/
> Yup,   THAT pretty much sums it up.



The most hilariously craven attempts at manipulation bull shit from one of _Fuck Your Feelings _liars.
Does anyone think Graham is a closeted gay?


----------



## Alli

Huntn said:


> The most hilariously craven attempts at manipulation bull shit from one of _Fuck Your Feelings _liars.
> Does anyone think Graham is a closeted gay?



I think it’s pretty much accepted that he’s gay. The issue is he is not just a closeted gay. I have heard rumors of his having a preference for underage boys.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Alli said:


> I think it’s pretty much accepted that he’s gay. The issue is he is not just a closeted gay. I have heard rumors of his having a preference for underage boys.




Maybe he’s Q.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Maybe he’s Q.



Is QAnon what the Q in LGBTQ stands for? Never knew...


----------



## thekev

JayMysteri0 said:


> Aww, someone think of poor Wimsy...
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350836851259682817/
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350842234380443655/
> Yup,   THAT pretty much sums it up.




Much like the other jackasses, Graham is just leveraging whatever he thinks might have a chance in hell. I imagine he just assigns one of this staff to type up this garbage anyway. 

"Healing" should be about not feuding with governors and not showing preferential treatment to states that voted a particular way. Coddling the idiots isn't "healing". It's placating them until the next election.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Here's another jackass.









						Analysis: Rand Paul's dire prediction for the GOP
					

Sometime shortly after President-elect Joe Biden is sworn in as the 46th President of the United States on Wednesday, the Senate will likely begin the impeachment trial of soon-to-be-former President Donald Trump.




					www.cnn.com
				






> "...the impeachment is a wrongheaded, partisan notion. But if Republicans go along with it, it will destroy the party. A third of the Republicans will leave the party."...




And _that _statement is as partisan as it gets. Even in a case this obvious, don't vote for a conviction because, you know, party before country!

I don't recall that when Bill Clinton was impeached any Democratic senators said, "Don't vote for impeachment! It'll destroy the party."


----------



## Huntn

Thomas Veil said:


> Here's another jackass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Analysis: Rand Paul's dire prediction for the GOP
> 
> 
> Sometime shortly after President-elect Joe Biden is sworn in as the 46th President of the United States on Wednesday, the Senate will likely begin the impeachment trial of soon-to-be-former President Donald Trump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And _that _statement is as partisan as it gets. Even in a case this obvious, don't vote for a conviction because, you know, party before country!
> 
> I don't recall that when Bill Clinton was impeached any Democratic senators said, "Don't vote for impeachment! It'll destroy the party."



The GOP desperately needs a new start. Now would be an excellent time.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Thomas Veil said:


> Here's another jackass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Analysis: Rand Paul's dire prediction for the GOP
> 
> 
> Sometime shortly after President-elect Joe Biden is sworn in as the 46th President of the United States on Wednesday, the Senate will likely begin the impeachment trial of soon-to-be-former President Donald Trump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And _that _statement is as partisan as it gets. Even in a case this obvious, don't vote for a conviction because, you know, party before country!
> 
> I don't recall that when Bill Clinton was impeached any Democratic senators said, "Don't vote for impeachment! It'll destroy the party."




Trump already destroyed the party and there is a segment of society that shouldn’t be pandered to. If it was determined that convicted murderers, rapists, and child molesters tend to vote Republican they’d loudly demand they get the right to vote.


----------



## JayMysteri0

HOW HAS SOMEONE NOT POSTED THIS ALREADY?!!!!
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1352641061911470082/


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> HOW HAS SOMEONE NOT POSTED THIS ALREADY?!!!!
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1352641061911470082/



Donald John Trump inciting an erection warrants a separate article of impeachment.


----------



## Renzatic

ericgtr12 said:


> Donald John Trump inciting an erection warrants a separate article of impeachment.




I don't think any of us here really knows what went on at those Trump rallies...


----------



## lizkat

I hope this story has real legs.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1352994501401464837/


From the CNN piece cited in the tweet:



> It would take 17 Republicans to join all 50 Democrats in order to convict. While the bar is high, some GOP sources think there is more of an appetite to punish the former President than is publicly apparent.
> 
> "There were 10 House Republicans who voted for impeachment. There were probably over 150 who supported it," said Charlie Dent, a former Republican congressman and CNN contributor.
> 
> The ongoing Republican whisper campaign, according to more than a dozen sources who spoke to CNN, is based on a shared belief that a successful conviction is critical for the future of the Republican party. Multiple sources describe this moment as a reckoning for the party.






> The lobbying effort has included behind-the-scenes pressure by Republican donors, calls from former top Trump White House officials, and a set of talking points circulating among Republicans arguing for Trump's impeachment.
> 
> The 9-point memo charges that "it is difficult to find a more anti-conservative outburst by a U.S. president than Donald Trump the last two months." Other points include that Trump "urged supporters from across the nation to come to Washington, DC, to disrupt" Congress on January 6 and egged on the crowd, which was "widely understood to include people who were planning to fight physically, and who were prepared to die in response to his false claims of a 'stolen election.''
> 
> The memo goes on to point out Trump "tweeted and made other statements against the Vice President as the Secret Service was being forced to rush Mike Pence out of the Senate chamber and into a protective bunker." It's unclear how widely disseminated the memo is among Republicans in Washington.


----------



## thekev

JayMysteri0 said:


> HOW HAS SOMEONE NOT POSTED THIS ALREADY?!!!!
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1352641061911470082/




Well, now we know what he was doing at the time.


----------



## lizkat

Maybe Pelosi should hold up delivering the impeachment bill to the Senate since the trial's not for awhile yet anyway...   there's time to add another article to the thing.   This would seem to go beyond lying 24/7 about the election.    So much of what Trump schemed away at doing is just so rotten, and he certainly found loyalists in the agencies and in Congress willing to go along no matter how subversive of his (and their) oath to the Constitution.









						Pennsylvania Lawmaker Played Key Role in Trump’s Plot to Oust Acting Attorney General (Published 2021)
					

The congressman’s involvement underlined how far the former president was willing to go to overturn the election, and Democratic lawmakers have begun calling for investigations into those efforts.




					www.nytimes.com
				




Anyway looks like Rep.Scott Perry and Trump loyalist Jeffrey Clark in the DoJ could be looking at federal time and since this dropped after Trump exited the presidency,  he can't pardon them, so one could flip on the other and put Trump in hotter water than he's already in, at least with respect to the idea of his ever running for office again.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Looking so professional
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1356660605172789248/


----------



## JayMysteri0

And it's on?
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1357390977980243970/


----------



## fooferdoggie

JayMysteri0 said:


> And it's on?
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1357390977980243970/



that would be something he will like like a old dog.


----------



## Pumbaa

JayMysteri0 said:


> And it's on?
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1357390977980243970/



Oh noes! It is a perjury trap! Unconstitutional!


----------



## Alli

I want to see DJT subpoenaed to give testimony. I want to see him try to wiggle out of it. I want to see him squirm. I want to hear him lose it and incriminate himself. BIGLY.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Alli said:


> I want to see DJT subpoenaed to give testimony. I want to see him try to wiggle out of it. I want to see him squirm. I want to hear him lose it and incriminate himself. BIGLY.



I imagine 45 sees himself differently when questioned...


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Democrats just requested Trump testify at his impeachment.  lolz.  Yes please.

Democrats are going to need to request more staffers be present at the trial because they are going to run out of hands to hold GOP beers.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Oh great.  Just when I responded to the new pinned 2nd impeachment thread, I see this one also got bumped.    

I request a thread merge!


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

CNN referring to all the videos posted online from people who were there as “events may be among the most well-documented on Earth.” 

Seriously, a 5-year-old could slop together a quality incriminating video using iMovie on their iPhone.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Oh great.  Just when I responded to the new pinned 2nd impeachment thread, I see this one also got bumped.
> 
> I request a thread merge!



​


----------



## Alli

And the lawyers for the 45th president of the United States (yea, I'm gonna keep using that cause it makes me LOL) have said that no, he will not testify. It just keeps getting better.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Alli said:


> And the lawyers for the 45th president of the United States (yea, I'm gonna keep using that cause it makes me LOL) have said that no, he will not testify. It just keeps getting better.




To be fair in a lot of trials putting the accused on the stand is usually seen as a bad idea, but Trump is like that times 100.  Just having him present at the trial would be a bad idea for the defense and that's not including the fact that the taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for replenishing his box of crayons.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Alli said:


> And the lawyers for the 45th president of the United States (yea, I'm gonna keep using that cause it makes me LOL) ...



You and me both. His compulsive, repeated use of it was just so breathtakingly, desperately stupid I can't let it go.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Using the Republicans' defense logic, I'd like them to let us know what other federal crimes have a statute of limitation of less than a month.

For anybody who thinks this isn't a federal crime or even prosecutable, if this was incited by an average citizen they'd be spending the rest of their life in prison and probably get a play date with old sparky.  Trump is damn lucky that at worst he just won't be able to run for office again.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

Alli said:


> I want to see DJT subpoenaed to give testimony. I want to see him try to wiggle out of it. I want to see him squirm. I want to hear him lose it and incriminate himself. BIGLY.




I want to see him roasted, and toasted and.............Anglo-Saxon word hereby excised - ah, fried.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I expect to hear "No!" yelled out every five minutes followed by "Not yet Lindsey."


----------



## User.45

Scepticalscribe said:


> I want to see him roasted, and toasted and.............Anglo-Saxon word hereby excised - ah, fried.



He won't testify. They will literally do everything to prevent that. He will have to be physically dragged in for a testimony, which will get him the martyrdom he desires. At least this time it comes with more inconvenience than just getting booted from social media.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

P_X said:


> He won't testify. They will literally do everything to prevent that. He will have to be physically dragged in for a testimony, which will get him the martyrdom he desires. At least this time it comes with more inconvenience than just getting booted from social media.




If he testifies, - if he even opens that mouth in a court - it seems to me to be inevitable that he will convict himself - as he won't be able to help himself.  

Therefore, I'd imagine that his advisors will do everything in their power to ensure that he won't testify.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Part of Trump’s lawyers strategy is to throw the insurrectionists under the bus by saying they did it of their own accord and for their own reasons.  Ah. At least he’s consistent with throwing his loyalists under the bus.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Part of Trump’s lawyers strategy is to throw the insurrectionists under the bus by saying they did it of their own accord and for their own reasons.  Ah. At least he’s consistent with throwing his loyalists under the bus.



Not sure why they need a strategy. They should just say “the defense rests” because the spineless jellyfish in the Senate would acquit even if Trump himself was breaking windows at the Capitol. What a shameful display of cowardice. All because they are worried about losing the votes of racists and conspiracy theorists. What a dumb way of thinking... as if those people are going to switch to the Democrats if they don’t appease them by acquitting Trump?


----------



## Thomas Veil

Watching the trial now on C-SPAN2

... and holy shit! Impeachment manager Jamie Raskin came prepared. He’s showing the Senate a moment-by-moment video of what was going on inside and outside the Capitol on Jan. 6.

And it is freaking frightening. They assembled a horrendous collection of video that shows the mob behaving like a horde of rabid wild animals.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Thomas Veil said:


> Watching the trial now on C-SPAN2
> 
> ... and holy shit! Impeachment manager Jamie Raskin came prepared. He’s showing the Senate a moment-by-moment video of what was going on inside and outside the Capitol on Jan. 6.
> 
> And it is freaking frightening. They assembled a horrendous collection of video that shows the mob behaving like a horde of rabid wild animals.




Maybe Trump’s lawyers will counter with a video of the mob chanting “Here on my own accord! Not because of Trump!”


----------



## Thomas Veil

They're not even two hours in, and they've already had two of what will be the some of the most viral moments from the trial.

One was the compilation of violence and insurrection video I mentioned earlier.

The other will be Rep. Jamie Raskin telling of how his daughter and son-in-law accompanied him to the Capitol that day, and how they had to be evacuated separately to hide in Steny Hoyer's office while Raskin was hiding elsewhere, not knowing what happened to them. The real gut-punch moment was when Raskin describes what happened after he was reunited with them. 

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359227626842382336/​


----------



## JayMysteri0

Why it was decided NOT to go with Zoom for 45's lawyers in the impeachment trial
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359217017220390912/

Also because it's no surprise
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359203936004153344/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

More than a dozen of the people being prosecuted for storming that capitol have said they did it because Trump incited them.  One of them is even willing to testify to that at the impeachment trial.  For some reason, I'm going to assume none of this is going to be allowed into evidence.


----------



## Thomas Veil

This guy trying to make the case for Trump's defense is glib, but his arguments are weak. He's talking like holding _this_ impeachment is going to open the door to _routine, ongoing_ impeachments. And that the solution for getting rid of politicians you don't like is to elect someone else. Then what does impeachment exist for?


----------



## JayMysteri0

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> More than a dozen of the people being prosecuted for storming that capitol have said they did it because Trump incited them.  One of them is even willing to testify to that at the impeachment trial.  For some reason, I'm going to assume none of this is going to be allowed into evidence.



What gives you that idea, besides the obvious?

There are posters' in the other place who keep telling this me is all nonsense, because THEY didn't hear the president tell anyone to storm on the 6th.  As if what THEY heard is of any importance, compared to the people ACTUALLY involved in the insurrection.

Twitter is enjoying 45's lawyer at least
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359238285294403584/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359237412484956160/


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Also because it's no surprise
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359203936004153344/



Cause Rand paul thinks his antibody titer still holds a good 8 months out after his minimally symptomatic COVID. And this idiot has an MD from Duke...


----------



## Thomas Veil

I think they're playing good cop/bad cop, because while the other guy at least made an _attempt_ to sound like he was appealing to the Senate on an intellectual basis, _this_ guy, Schoen, is just throwing red meat to the Trumpers. He's clearly and purely partisan. And his audiovisuals are laughable, like a montage of clips of Democrats calling for Trump's impeachment (presumably to bolster his argument that if we go through this one it'll become commonplace for both parties). The first guy, Castor, was meant to appeal to the traditional Republicans; the second guy, Schoen, is appealing to the MAGAts.


----------



## Thomas Veil

So Schoen now is complaining that the House rushed the impeachment through without hearings or evidence finding. Yet they're also arguing Trump can't be tried after he left office.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

JayMysteri0 said:


> What gives you that idea, besides the obvious?



I read somewhere earlier that they aren't going to allow witness testimony but can decide later that they will.

I think one of the most disturbing factors to this trial is everybody was present when the mob stormed the building and half of them are now going "Eh, no big whoop." and being stone wall ignorant that none of that would have happened without Trump.

Were Hillary supporters not upset when she lost?  How about Al Gore's?  I don't recall them choosing to express themselves similarly to Trump supporters.


----------



## SuperMatt

It doesn’t matter what his lawyers say or do. They could take a dump on the Senate floor and smear it on the faces of the Republican members and they would STILL vote to acquit Trump. They are cowards; they think if they do anything negative to Trump, they will get “primaried” and lose their seats. They are pathetic excuses for human beings.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> It doesn’t matter what his lawyers say or do. They could take a dump on the Senate floor and smear it on the faces of the Republican members and they would STILL vote to acquit Trump. They are cowards; they think if they do anything negative to Trump, they will get “primaried” and lose their seats. They are pathetic excuses for human beings.




Odds are they would get primaried and possibly lose their seats, but what I can't fathom is long time members wanting to be in the party of Trump and all that stands for and expects.  Prior to 4 years ago nobody signed up for this grotesque cancer of a party and its leader.  I'd be "This isn't what I signed up for.  Bye, Felicias" and get the Hell out.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Odds are they would get primaried and possibly lose their seats, but what I can't fathom is long time members wanting to be in the party of Trump and all that stands for and expects.  Prior to 4 years ago nobody signed up for this grotesque cancer of a party and its leader.  I'd be "This isn't what I signed up for.  Bye, Felicias" and get the Hell out.



Power is what they want. They will do anything to hold onto it.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> Power is what they want. They will do anything to hold onto it.




You are probably right.  It's just sad that it's that blatant and simple, but it takes an extra level of human garbage to go full loyalty to Trump and what he's about.  He certainly isn't about America, and is dead set against more than half of it.


----------



## shadow puppet

I concur. Trump must have been spitting like a deranged, wet cat.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359312458641526786/


----------



## JayMysteri0

shadow puppet said:


> I concur. Trump must have been spitting like a deranged, wet cat.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359312458641526786/



I resubmit into evidence, 
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359217017220390912/
that perhaps that probably would NOT have been a good idea.  Funny, but not the best idea.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359248029417689089/


----------



## Huntn

SuperMatt said:


> Power is what they want. They will do anything to hold onto it.



The GOP has lost their minds and vital to the maintenance of their insanity relies on a mob of like minded citizens who pretend to be patriots while endorsing the defacto destruction of the Republic as we know it. They are brilliant, right? 

Oh sure, they would deny the destruction of the Republic comment,  rationalizing how they are really the good guys, breaking the law for a good cause, trying to install Emperor Donny.  This is a complete embarrassment to the notion of the common sense of the average white male...at least the ones who fall under the spell of conman who appeals to their white superiority, and thought storming the Capitol was the leading edge of the revolution.

This is a real blow to the image of the United States of America, the video today played in Congress during the impeachment hearing, watching a mob of idiots pretend they are patriots when they were just fools being played by a bankrupt, immoral sociopath. And then there is the GOP trying to feed their base to keep themselves  in office. Tragic.


----------



## Thomas Veil

How ‘bout that? I see there’s still one Trump-related account that hasn’t been shut down by Twitter. And today the account tweeted this:



> “Imagine having a 'trial' where the 'judge' had already voted to convict the defendant?" the tweet read. "That's what happens in banana republics, third world dictatorships and now the United States Senate. SAD!"




Huh. Now _who_ do you suppose wrote that? 









						‘Trump War Room’ Twitter account goes on the attack as impeachment trial kicks off
					

The account is one of the last remaining Twitter handles affiliated with the former president and his aides that is accessible on the platform.




					www.politico.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

Also, who the heck is this guy?  Where's he?
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359388655001952257/
He must have strong opinions of impeachment now right?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359389772305866760/


----------



## Eraserhead

I really cannot see Trump being popular even with the Republican base in 2024/26.


----------



## Thomas Veil

I can’t help wondering...

If Trump gets off the hook for this, as it appears he will, could the government still bring _criminal_ treason charges against him, just as it can against any of the rioters?

My instinct is to say no, that that is what the Founding Fathers created impeachment for. But it seems impeachment is mainly about removal from office. It may not cover criminal punishment for such gross infractions of the law.


----------



## Pumbaa

Thomas Veil said:


> I can’t help wondering...
> 
> If Trump gets off the hook for this, as it appears he will, could the government still bring _criminal_ treason charges against him, just as it can against any of the rioters?
> 
> My instinct is to say no, that that is what the Founding Fathers created impeachment for. But it seems impeachment is mainly about removal from office. It may not cover criminal punishment for such gross infractions of the law.



Legally? Absolutely! He can face criminal charges for the same actions he was impeached for. It doesn’t even matter if he is convicted by the Senate or not, no double jeopardy here. In theory he could be found guilty by both systems for the same set of actions.


----------



## User.45

Pumbaa said:


> Legally? Absolutely! He can face criminal charges for the same actions he was impeached for. It doesn’t even matter if he is convicted by the Senate or not, no double jeopardy here. In theory he could be found guilty by both systems for the same set of actions.



It would be a joke if he couldn't. I suspect having a clear and direct conflict of interest (on both sides) eliminates the idea of "impartial jurors".


----------



## Alli

Eraserhead said:


> I really cannot see Trump being popular even with the Republican base in 2024/26.



Fingers crossed.


Pumbaa said:


> Legally? Absolutely! He can face criminal charges for the same actions he was impeached for. It doesn’t even matter if he is convicted by the Senate or not, no double jeopardy here. In theory he could be found guilty by both systems for the same set of actions.



That is certainly what his own lawyer was implying during his opening remarks.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Thomas Veil said:


> I can’t help wondering...
> 
> If Trump gets off the hook for this, as it appears he will, could the government still bring _criminal_ treason charges against him, just as it can against any of the rioters?
> 
> My instinct is to say no, that that is what the Founding Fathers created impeachment for. But it seems impeachment is mainly about removal from office. It may not cover criminal punishment for such gross infractions of the law.



Yes.  As it's been stated though, the true purpose for this impeachment is to insure 45 can't return to political life.  As it stands now, he can be arrested & put in jail for multiple life terms, and still run.


----------



## Eraserhead

Alli said:


> Fingers crossed.



Trump will likely be in prison or have died of old age by 2024. He’s hardly a picture of good health. Plus the republicans are rapidly losing corporate support.

And if the republicans run a trump lite figure im not sure it will motivate their low-info voters as much as our high-info voters.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Meta side trip...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359475661237288960/

Cats amirite?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359480212174569473/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Jenna Ryan, a Texas real-estate agent charged in the Capitol insurrection, says she 'bought into a lie' and regrets 'everything'
					

Ryan, who took a private plane to Washington, told The Washington Post she was "embarrassed" and felt betrayed by former President Donald Trump.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## User.45

Eraserhead said:


> I really cannot see Trump being popular even with the Republican base in 2024/26.



I give a >50% chance he's not going to be in a good enough shape to run even if everything else would be permissive.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Joaquin Castro and Eric Swalwell are killing it right now, taking the Senate step by step through Trump’s _months_ of stoking the fire.


----------



## User.45

Thomas Veil said:


> Joaquin Castro and Eric Swalwell are killing it right now, taking the Senate step by step through Trump’s _months_ of stoking the fire.



Agree, but truth be told the whole thing had been blatant as fuck and the reasoning that rioters had premeditation ruling out incitement are in close competition with a latrine in terms of being full of shit.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Eraserhead said:


> Trump will likely be in prison or have died of old age by 2024. He’s hardly a picture of good health. Plus the republicans are rapidly losing corporate support.
> 
> And if the republicans run a trump lite figure im not sure it will motivate their low-info voters as much as our high-info voters.




I think at this point Biden is going to have to seriously blow it for any Republican to have a chance in 2024. In at least these early days he seems to be open to listen to the majority of citizens instead of just the donors. Gee, what a concept.  But I also wouldn’t be surprised if some of the rich donors told Biden “Listen, they’re going to come for us next.  So how about you throw them some bones this round.”


----------



## Thomas Veil

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I think at this point Biden is going to have to seriously blow it for any Republican to have a chance in 2024.



I wouldn’t be so confident. You know what P. T. Barnum said about the public...


----------



## Eraserhead

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> But I also wouldn’t be surprised if some of the rich donors told Biden “Listen, they’re going to come for us next. So how about you throw them some bones this round.



I think the rich donors are more threatened by the end of democracy than workers having stronger rights.

Big business would probably actually _*benefit*_ from the US having stricter employment law as in most cases they will follow European employment law as that means they don’t have to have different policies for each country. It’s probably only with redundancy and holiday allowance/pay that it differs at the moment.


----------



## Eraserhead

Thomas Veil said:


> I wouldn’t be so confident. You know what P. T. Barnum said about the public...



The public will pay attention at the beginning and the end. And the beginning already looks like a dramatic improvement and at the end it’s difficult to believe that life will be worse given the pandemic will be over.


----------



## User.45

It's going to be very very very very hard to explain all this shit away with trump's idiotic Twitter timestamps.


----------



## Thomas Veil

If you're following live, this is like watching the prosecutor in a murder trial make his case. The trial managers are clearly establishing means, motive and opportunity. They have all the video, all the tweets, all arranged in a clear timeline to show how Trump caused this from beginning to end. If Trump is watching this he must be crapping his pants.

And it's hard watching some of these managers' voices crack and their voices shake as they have to mentally relive the events as they speak about them.


----------



## JayMysteri0

In reference to a Biden nominee that I have discussed in the TF Guy thread, but is very apropos here with thin skinned senatorial cowards

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359539513010307074/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Also time to start playing a favorite game of the other side, 'the conspiracy game'...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359595211194699776/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Also it can never hurt to plan ahead...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359553025833115654/

Gotta strike while the iron is hot.

-jokes


----------



## Thomas Veil

They are now presenting video of people searching for Pence to hang him. This is so damning, I don't know how Senators can say Trump didn't instigate that.


----------



## SuperMatt

Thomas Veil said:


> They are now presenting video of people searching for Pence to hang him. This is so damning, I don't know how Senators can say Trump didn't instigate that.



The law doesn’t matter. The facts don’t matter. They will protect Trump no matter what. At this point, the goal of this becomes convincing the public so that after the weak-kneed GOP senators acquit him, they suffer at the ballot box.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Chuck Todd on NBC suggested that even if the House managers don't win the trial among their Senate colleagues, they may very well win in the court of public opinion.

Though after seeing Congress fleeing for their lives and Capitol officers being beaten and stomped by a crazed mob, if the Senate doesn't convict it will be an obscenity.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Thomas Veil said:


> Chuck Todd on NBC suggested that even if the House managers don't win the trial among their Senate colleagues, they may very well win in the court of public opinion.
> 
> Though after seeing Congress fleeing for their lives and Capitol officers being beaten and stopped by a crazed mob, if the Senate doesn't convict it will be an obscenity.




It's really beyond comprehension how some will just ignore all evidence, personal experience, and relevant historical actions.  Trump is one fucking guy.  He's not the founder of the party or country.  So your party had a real turd in office.  Take your lumps, convict his ass and move on.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## shadow puppet

Seeing this new footage and just how close the insurrectionists came to certain Senators, including Pence, is even more disturbing than I imagined.  Yet I doubt we will see the 45th convicted.   I find this beyond heinous.


----------



## SuperMatt

If they fail to convict him, it is the end of the Republican Party. The far-right nuts are the loudest voices in the room, but the average Republican voter will punish those who support Trump going forward. They think most Republicans are Trump-nuts? Nope. They’re making an inexcusable ethical and moral transgression. But they are also making a huge political mistake.


----------



## SuperMatt

Seeing the videos of the terrorists breaking into the Capitol again is making me quite upset. I hope they catch every single one of them and lock them up for as many years as the law allows.


----------



## shadow puppet

"This was a dereliction of duty, plain and simple" -  when DJT couldn't bring himself to simply say "Stop.  Go home."  Or send help to the Capitol police.

I will never understand how many GOP will not vote to convict after today's presentation.


----------



## SuperMatt

shadow puppet said:


> "This was a dereliction of duty, plain and simple" -  when DJT couldn't bring himself to simply say "Stop.  Go home."  Or send help to the Capitol police.
> 
> I will never understand how many GOP will not vote to convict after today's presentation.



It’s not like one of them died. Just some of the serfs did.

Convicting Trump risks them losing to a Boebert or Taylor-Greene in the next primary. Politicians aren’t known for their ethics or morality, especially the Republicans.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> It’s not like one of them died. Just some of the serfs did.
> 
> Convicting Trump risks them losing to a Boebert or Taylor-Greene in the next primary. Politicians aren’t known for their ethics or morality, especially the Republicans.



It's an issue with voters too though.


----------



## shadow puppet

SuperMatt said:


> It’s not like one of them died. Just some of the serfs did.
> 
> Convicting Trump risks them losing to a Boebert or Taylor-Greene in the next primary. Politicians aren’t known for their ethics or morality, especially the Republicans.



I hear what you're saying.  But I would love to see this bite them in the arse.  HARD.


----------



## SuperMatt

shadow puppet said:


> I hear what you're saying.  But I would love to see this bite them in the arse.  HARD.



I think some people who voted GOP in the past have sworn it off forever because of Trump, especially after Jan 6. His final presidential approval rating when he left DC was in the 20s. I think the Senators are making a political mistake if they don’t convict. They are massively over-estimating Trump’s current popularity. Can a young person voting for the first time really vote for a party that failed to hold accountable the person who incited an attack on their nation’s Capitol?


----------



## Pumbaa

shadow puppet said:


> "This was a dereliction of duty, plain and simple" -  when DJT couldn't bring himself to simply say "Stop.  Go home."  Or send help to the Capitol police.
> 
> I will never understand how many GOP will not vote to convict after today's presentation.



Yes. Trump’s actions (and lack of actions) after the mob had breached the Capitol should have been enough for everyone to immediately condemn him. Especially given the amount of pro-Trump merchandise flown by the mob...

The world is laughing at the US, and the upcoming acquittal will only make it worse.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Mike Lee trying to pull a PRSI at the impeachment.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359665914808049666/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359663181455622145/



> As riot raged at Capitol, Trump tried to call senators to overturn election
> 
> 
> President Donald Trump and his attorney Rudy Giuliani both mistakenly made calls to Republican Sen. Mike Lee as deadly riots were unfolding at the US Capitol earlier this week, a spokesman for the senator confirmed to CNN -- calls that were intended for another GOP senator the White House was...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com





> Lee's spokesman said the calls from Trump and his attorney were intended for Sen. Tommy Tuberville, a newly elected Republican from Alabama.
> 
> The effort by the White House to get Tuberville to delay certification of the votes provides insight into the President's thinking and priorities as a mob of his supporters lay siege to the iconic building. As the President worked to convince Tuberville to delay the process, he and other top White House officials did little to check in on Vice President Mike Pence while he and members of his family were inside the breached Capitol, a source close to the vice president told CNN.
> 
> Trump first called the personal cell phone of Lee, a Utah Republican, shortly after 2 p.m. ET. At that time the senators had been evacuated from the Senate floor and were in a temporary holding room, as a pro-Trump mob began breaching the Capitol.
> 
> Lee picked up the phone and Trump identified himself, and it became clear he was looking for Tuberville and had been given the wrong number. Lee, keeping the President on hold, went to find his colleague and handed Tuberville his phone, telling him the President was on the line and had been trying to reach him.
> 
> Tuberville spoke with Trump for less than 10 minutes, with the President trying to convince him to make additional objections to the Electoral College vote in a futile effort to block Congress' certification of President-elect Joe Biden's win, according to a source familiar with the call. The call was cut off because senators were asked to move to a secure location.
> 
> CNN has reached out to Tuberville's office for comment.
> 
> The second call to Lee came in at 7 p.m. ET from Giuliani. Lee did not answer the call so it went to voicemail. Lee's office confirmed to CNN that the voicemail was intended for Tuberville and the message left from Giuliani was very similar to one that another unnamed GOP senator received. The transcript of that call was published by the conservative outlet The Dispatch as well as the news blog emptywheel.
> 
> "Sen. Tuberville? Or I should say Coach Tuberville. This is Rudy Giuliani, the President's lawyer," he said according to to the transcript.
> 
> "I'm calling you because I want to discuss with you how they're trying to rush this hearing and how we need you, our Republican friends, to try to just slow it down so we can get these legislatures to get more information to you," Giuliani said, referring to unfounded claims of voter fraud in the presidential election.
> 
> "I know they're reconvening at 8 tonight, but it ... the only strategy we can follow is to object to numerous states and raise issues so that we get ourselves into tomorrow -- ideally until the end of tomorrow."
> 
> Tuberville was unaware that Giuliani had tried to reach him until it was publicly reported, according to the source.


----------



## JayMysteri0

In other news, it's official

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359519539218776064/



> Georgia District Attorney Is Investigating Trump's Call To Overturn Election
> 
> 
> In a letter to state officials, the top prosecutor in Atlanta said the investigation will look into potential violations of state law stemming from Trump's call with election officials last month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


----------



## Eraserhead

SuperMatt said:


> If they fail to convict him, it is the end of the Republican Party. The far-right nuts are the loudest voices in the room, but the average Republican voter will punish those who support Trump going forward. They think most Republicans are Trump-nuts? Nope. They’re making an inexcusable ethical and moral transgression. But they are also making a huge political mistake.



There’s no way the mildly racist little old ladies and men who live in small towns and vote conservative because they always have and/or don’t like change support overthrowing the government. I agree completely here.



P_X said:


> It's an issue with voters too though.



It’s an issue with the *primary* voters in the Republican Party.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Something vaguely tied to Mike Lee and his faux PRSI outrage...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359705177230503938/


----------



## Huntn

SuperMatt said:


> If they fail to convict him, it is the end of the Republican Party. The far-right nuts are the loudest voices in the room, but the average Republican voter will punish those who support Trump going forward. They think most Republicans are Trump-nuts? Nope. They’re making an inexcusable ethical and moral transgression. But they are also making a huge political mistake.



I sincerely hope you are right while I look at 70M votes for this POS who was a POS before 6Jan.


----------



## Huntn

shadow puppet said:


> "This was a dereliction of duty, plain and simple" -  when DJT couldn't bring himself to simply say "Stop.  Go home."  Or send help to the Capitol police.
> 
> I will never understand how many GOP will not vote to convict after today's presentation.



If they fail to convict they are corrupt, tribal, and chose their power and position over their country even if it is fleeting. Ultimately these people fear their base.

I emailed both my Senators yesterday, one of them Ted Cruz, telling them:
_as US Senators who took an Oath of Office to protect an defend the Constitution, after watching the presentation of Impeachment Managers, I could not imagine you  not voting to convict Donald Trump and to please stop being Trump enablers. There is a time when you must pick your Country over your party and this is one of those times._


----------



## Huntn

Eraserhead said:


> There’s no way the mildly racist little old ladies and men who live in small towns and vote conservative because they always have and/or don’t like change support overthrowing the government. I agree completely here.
> 
> 
> It’s an issue with the *primary* voters in the Republican Party.



I’ll say that is an open question. Let’s see how the vote goes, and then let’s see how many Republicans punish their Senators. I admit In combination with Democrats in applicable States, if enough of them turn, the _refuse to hold Trump accountable_ Senators could find themselves out of jobs. At the same time I view these elected Republican officials people like Jordan, Gaetz, Gomer, Graham, McConnell, Cruz and the latest nut case MARJORIE, are  products of the citizens representing the majority of 24 States where Republicans have total control.

Now I live in one of those States, and the good news is that the Texas appears to be purplish, areas like Houston which is huge and Austin run Democratic. But Texas us vast, but we just have to overcome all the country bumpkins who for whatever reason elect Right Wing corrupt dopes who think that truth is a hinderance. They have made a calculation the Right Wing liars is better than Left Wing truth.









						Republicans Will Enter 2021 With Control Over Most States’ Governments. Here’s Why That Matters For Redistricting.
					

Republicans will control at least 29 state legislatures and 27 governor’s offices.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> Can a young person voting for the first time really vote for a party that failed to hold accountable the person who incited an attack on their nation’s Capitol?




I honestly don't believe a first time young voter is mature enough to grapple with that.  They have their pet issues, upbringing, and social circles and echo chambers like anybody else.  If they are right leaning they probably aren't watching the impeachment trial at all.  Not to mention many young people don't vote at all unless you give them something young people feel passionate about.  Corrupt politicians is nothing new.


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I honestly don't believe a first time young voter is mature enough to grapple with that.  They have their pet issues, upbringing, and social circles and echo chambers like anybody else.  If they are right leaning they probably aren't watching the impeachment trial at all.  Not to mention many young people don't vote at all unless you give them something young people feel passionate about.  Corrupt politicians is nothing new.



If you are young and ideal you may be more able to make radical change. I was 20 when I threw off the Republican Party because of Watergate, although I tended to lean Republican until gaining more wisdom, insight, and perspective working in labor,  while watching the Republican Party continue to spiral down into blatant deceit and reliance on wedge issues to control and appeal to their target base.


----------



## User.45

Huntn said:


> I’ll say that is an open question. Let’s see how the vote goes, and then let’s see how many Republicans punish their Senators. I admit In combination with Democrats in applicable States, if enough of them turn, the _refuse to hold Trump accountable_ Senators could find themselves out of jobs. At the same time I view these elected Republican officials people like Jordan, Gaetz, Gomer, Graham, McConnell, Cruz and the latest nut case MARJORIE, are  products of the citizens representing the majority of 24 States where Republicans have total control.
> 
> Now I live in one of those States, and the good news is that the Texas appears to be purplish, areas like Houston which is huge and Austin run Democratic. But Texas us vast, but we just have to overcome all the country bumpkins who for whatever reason elect Right Wing corrupt dopes who think that truth is a hinderance. They have made a calculation the Right Wing liars is better than Left Wing truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans Will Enter 2021 With Control Over Most States’ Governments. Here’s Why That Matters For Redistricting.
> 
> 
> Republicans will control at least 29 state legislatures and 27 governor’s offices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com



Side note, Gomer's performance was most likely a side-effect of a little too much carbidopa-levodopa, statistically most likely for the treatment of Parkinson's.


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> I sincerely hope you are right while I look at 70M votes for this POS who was a POS before 6Jan.



Given the amount of projection seen so far, it would be really interesting to have an independent audit conducted of the voting machines not targeted by Trump/Republicans... 

The millions of votes in 2016 were bad enough. But at least they had the excuse of voting against the establishment. The ones in 2020 on the other hand? Yikes.

2022 will be very interesting. Lots to prove. Will anyone be held accountable? Stay tuned!


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> If you are young and ideal you may be more able to make radical change. I was 20 when I threw off the Republican Party because of Watergate, although I tended to lean Republican until gaining more wisdom, insight, and perspective working in labor,  while watching the Republican Party continue to spiral down into blatant deceit and reliance on wedge issues to control and appeal to their target base.




If you are young and into radical change then the Republican party wouldn't be the party for you even before Trump.  The Republican party is the party of radical status quo.  

Nationally the Republican party was in decline even before Trump.  Trump is just splitting the party, causing many voters to leave it.  I see the impeachment and outcome as a big deal, but I don't think many registered Republicans are going to stay or leave just based on the verdict.  The Trump loyalists are going to destroy the party regardless, and even if the Republicans decide to convict it still won't stop the Trump loyalists from trying to take over.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Justice Department says an Oath Keepers leader waited for Trump's direction before Capitol attack
					

The Justice Department is now making clear that a leader among the Oath Keepers paramilitary group -- who planned and led others in the US Capitol siege to attempt to stop the Biden presidency -- believed she was responding to the call from then-President Donald Trump himself.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Eraserhead

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I honestly don't believe a first time young voter is mature enough to grapple with that.  They have their pet issues, upbringing, and social circles and echo chambers like anybody else.  If they are right leaning they probably aren't watching the impeachment trial at all.  Not to mention many young people don't vote at all unless you give them something young people feel passionate about.  Corrupt politicians is nothing new.



Young voters are the best educated in history. They aren’t voting Trump anywhere.


----------



## Edd

Watching this trial and getting furious.


----------



## Eraserhead

Pumbaa said:


> Given the amount of projection seen so far, it would be really interesting to have an independent audit conducted of the voting machines not targeted by Trump/Republicans...
> 
> The millions of votes in 2016 were bad enough. But at least they had the excuse of voting against the establishment. The ones in 2020 on the other hand? Yikes.
> 
> 2022 will be very interesting. Lots to prove. Will anyone be held accountable? Stay tuned!



The left hasn‘t always played its hand well. Generally the marketing has been terrible.

I can personally put together better marketing than Labour, the Lib Dem’s and the Greens. And I’m not particularly good at marketing.


----------



## SuperMatt

Huntn said:


> I sincerely hope you are right while I look at 70M votes for this POS who was a POS before 6Jan.



I think there are many people that are perfectly ok with racism but not ok with violent assault on the Capitol. They don’t want to be associated with it either.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I think there are many people that are perfectly ok with racism but not ok with violent assault on the Capitol. They don’t want to be associated with it either.



I call these people salon racists.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I don’t understand how there isn’t serious contempt of court-like charges with harsh punishments for what a large number of Republicans are doing right now with their “I’m voting to acquit regardless. La lalala la la lala! I’m not listening!” shit. I don’t give a fuck about their constituent’s desires. This isn’t a popularity contest. This affects the whole country now and in the future and shouldn’t come down to just their voters removing them or keeping them in office. It’s seriously reprehensible and I’d say even criminal. It’s unfortunate the founding fathers didn’t put in more safeguards against a large coalition of treasonous liars taking office but they probably assumed the brakes would have been pumped a long, long time ago in the past 4 years.


----------



## Edd

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I don’t understand how there isn’t serious contempt of court-like charges with harsh punishments for what a large number of Republicans are doing right now with their “I’m voting to acquit regardless. La lalala la la lala! I’m not listening!” shit. I don’t give a fuck about their constituent’s desires. This isn’t a popularity contest. This affects the whole country now and in the future and shouldn’t come down to just their voters removing them or keeping them in office. It’s seriously reprehensible and I’d say even criminal. It’s unfortunate the founding fathers didn’t put in more safeguards against a large coalition of treasonous liars taking office but they probably assumed the brakes would have been pumped a long, long time ago in the past 4 years.



How could they have predicted a right wing news reality bubble, with lies reaching millions within minutes? It’s a virtual asylum, run by right wing media, with senators and congresspeople as inmates.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Edd said:


> How could they have predicted a right wing news reality bubble, with lies reaching millions within minutes? It’s a virtual asylum, run by right wing media, with senators and congresspeople as inmates.




Republicans have been lying to their constituents for decades. Trump just advanced that same path by about 80 pegs. I know it’s hard for us on the left to see this, but Trump’s success wasn’t just a condemnation of Democrats. It was also a condemnation of establishment Republicans.

On the left it appeared the Republicans main purpose was obstruction and sticking it to liberals, even before Trump. And they appeared to be quite good at it. But those efforts and successes weren’t equating to jobs. Both the Democrats and Republicans are complicit in screwing the working class and inventing scapegoats that aren’t their donors. The only main difference is Democrats waving around more welfare as a solution. Then they shifted to pushing higher education, essentially saying you are too dumb to be employable. Now all that false scapegoating is coming to a head and they’re still refusing to come clean.

For all the blowhards still insisting we just need a strong leader, I think it would go a long way if top members of both parties got together and publicly apologized to the American people for letting it get to this.  No need (or benefit) to blame one party more than another.  Collectively they screwed us. Honestly I see this as the only way to deesculate things and return some sense of sanity.  Continuing down the path to a sane party and a completely insane party isn’t going to end well no matter which party you align with.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I don’t understand how there isn’t serious contempt of court-like charges with harsh punishments for what a large number of Republicans are doing right now



It’s not just that. You’ve probably heard by now about Josh Hawley listening to the House prosecutors while doing things like reading, putting his feet up on the chair in front of him, and generally not paying attention. This, during what have been some riveting, harrowing presentations. Talk about contempt. 









						Sen Josh Hawley Puts Feet Up During Trump Impeachment Trial, Enraging Viewers
					

Republican Sen. Josh Hawley’s conduct during Trump’s second impeachment trial enraged viewers this afternoon after he was seen kicking back with his feet up and ignoring the proceedings — even though he’s a juror on the case. Reporters covering the trial spotted Hawley sitting in the gallery of...




					www.yahoo.com
				






Eraserhead said:


> Young voters are the best educated in history. They aren’t voting Trump anywhere.



I wish I could believe that. A lot of these Proud Boys and Oath Keepers aren’t exactly doddering old men. Hell, a couple of Halloween ago I had a roughly 18 year old Trick-or-Treater whose “costume” was a TRUMP 2020 FUCK YOUR FEELINGS sweatshirt.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Okay, what the hell...?

*Three GOP senators meet with Trump's lawyers on eve of impeachment defense presentation*









						Three GOP senators meet with Trump's lawyers on eve of impeachment defense presentation | CNN Politics
					

A trio of Republican senators allied with former President Donald Trump met with his defense team Thursday evening, in the middle of an impeachment trial in which they will vote on whether to convict Trump and potentially bar him from holding public office again.




					www.cnn.com
				




They can’t be advising Trump’s lawyers to throw in the towel.  This smells.


----------



## Huntn

Edd said:


> Watching this trial and getting furious.



You mean the Impeachment Managers have to do triple back flips to convince the GOP of not the facts, but to uphold their oath of office and hold the Head Seditionist accountable for a physical assault on the Capitol Building.


----------



## Huntn

SuperMatt said:


> I think there are many people that are perfectly ok with racism but not ok with violent assault on the Capitol. They don’t want to be associated with it either.



Hopefully you are right. Let’s see how many GOP Senators do their duty...


----------



## JayMysteri0

Thomas Veil said:


> Okay, what the hell...?
> 
> *Three GOP senators meet with Trump's lawyers on eve of impeachment defense presentation*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three GOP senators meet with Trump's lawyers on eve of impeachment defense presentation | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> A trio of Republican senators allied with former President Donald Trump met with his defense team Thursday evening, in the middle of an impeachment trial in which they will vote on whether to convict Trump and potentially bar him from holding public office again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They can’t be advising Trump’s lawyers to throw in the towel.  This smells.



That reminder that this isn't the court of law
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360008242550640640/
Because if there were, there would be penalties for jurors & defense attorneys doing such things.

Unfortunately duplicitous individuals such as Cruz & Graham are fully aware and/or don't care.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Also, when you go on to discuss the impeachment and don't have a fricken clue & need talking points

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359919631687954440/

...and you're a juror...


----------



## Thomas Veil

I do have to say: now that the "prosecution" has rested, I greatly admire the case they argued. The evidence they introduced was presented in a logical, methodical order, and it was damning...as were the closing arguments during which Raskin & co. anticipated some of the arguments Trump's lawyers might make. This was a master class in prosecution of a crime.

It isn't going to be easy for Schoen and Castor. Already they're signaling they're going to talk about the "hypocrisy" of Democrats "while ignoring calls for violence from within their own ranks." IOW, they're not going to refute the facts, they're going to rely on whataboutism.


----------



## SuperMatt

Thomas Veil said:


> I do have to say: now that the "prosecution" has rested, I greatly admire the case they argued. The evidence they introduced was presented in a logical, methodical order, and it was damning...as were the closing arguments during which Raskin & co. anticipated some of the arguments Trump's lawyers might make. This was a master class in prosecution of a crime.
> 
> It isn't going to be easy for Schoen and Castor. Already they're signaling they're going to talk about the "hypocrisy" of Democrats "while ignoring calls for violence from within their own ranks." IOW, they're not going to refute the facts, they're going to rely on whataboutism.



Why pretend? Just run around the senate giving every Republican wedgies and pies in the face, take a leak on the Senate floor, etc. for 2 days. Completely humiliate every GOP Senator and watch them vote to acquit anyway. Republican Senators won’t convict Trump. I hope they prove me wrong, but I don’t think so.


----------



## Alli

If jurors in any other trial had left the proceedings for hours at a time, they’d have been thrown off the jury or charged with contempt. And yet, this is what we got from the R senators today. Half of them couldn’t even give you a decent recap of what was said today.


----------



## Eraserhead

Thomas Veil said:


> I wish I could believe that. A lot of these Proud Boys and Oath Keepers aren’t exactly doddering old men. Hell, a couple of Halloween ago I had a roughly 18 year old Trick-or-Treater whose “costume” was a TRUMP 2020 FUCK YOUR FEELINGS sweatshirt.



There were a few thousand of them in Washington DC with maybe tens of thousands more in the rest of the country. Hitler had a million in the SA out of 65 million Germans. The US doesn’t have 5 million oath keepers


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Column: At Trump impeachment trial, Democrats are rudely making an overwhelming case for conviction
					

At Donald Trump's impeachment trial, Democrats are rudely making an overwhelming case for conviction by unfairly showing Republicans that Trump is unquestionably guilty. It's unfair to me and other Republicans.




					www.chicagotribune.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Alli said:


> If jurors in any other trial had left the proceedings for hours at a time, they’d have been thrown off the jury or charged with contempt. And yet, this is what we got from the R senators today. Half of them couldn’t even give you a decent recap of what was said today.



Doesn’t the constitution state they need to be in their desks for the trial?


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> That reminder that this isn't the court of law
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360008242550640640/
> Because if there were, there would be penalties for jurors & defense attorneys doing such things.
> 
> Unfortunately duplicitous individuals such as Cruz & Graham are fully aware and/or don't care.



Because this procedure is political, conducted by a political body, it is severely compromised from the start. There is no oversight to keep it on track. If half the Congress want to violate their oath of office in hearings like this, the only equalizer is not immediate, it is delayed judgement from the citizens and/or idiots from the home districts of  representatives. If you can imagine, if we collectively elect anti-republic, anti-democratic people to represent us, we are voting for a change in our government for the good or bad depending  on your perspective.

The worst is when people are motivated not just by selfishness, we are all selfish, but when they decide that their selfishness, benefit to themselves as a minority, can disenfranchise  a majority, and Trumps the ideals the country was founded upon.


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Column: At Trump impeachment trial, Democrats are rudely making an overwhelming case for conviction
> 
> 
> At Donald Trump's impeachment trial, Democrats are rudely making an overwhelming case for conviction by unfairly showing Republicans that Trump is unquestionably guilty. It's unfair to me and other Republicans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chicagotribune.com



This is great! 
_As a proud Republican member of the U.S. Senate, I would like to formally express my disgust — disgust, I tell you! — at the way my Democratic colleagues are conducting themselves during this ridiculous, illegal, unfair and unconstitutional impeachment trial of Donald Trump, America’s forever president, blessed be his name.
As an impartial juror, my right to believe only what I want to believe is being trampled by these radical leftist Democrats. They keep shoving direct and consequential evidence in my face in a blatant attempt to get me to acknowledge what actually happened during the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol.
The House impeachment managers know full well I have already impartially made up my mind that Trump is both innocent and handsome, yet they continue to rudely make an overwhelming case for conviction and belligerently force me to reckon with my own outlandish hypocrisy._


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> This is great!
> _As a proud Republican member of the U.S. Senate, I would like to formally express my disgust — disgust, I tell you! — at the way my Democratic colleagues are conducting themselves during this ridiculous, illegal, unfair and unconstitutional impeachment trial of Donald Trump, America’s forever president, blessed be his name.
> As an impartial juror, my right to believe only what I want to believe is being trampled by these radical leftist Democrats. They keep shoving direct and consequential evidence in my face in a blatant attempt to get me to acknowledge what actually happened during the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol.
> The House impeachment managers know full well I have already impartially made up my mind that Trump is both innocent and handsome, yet they continue to rudely make an overwhelming case for conviction and belligerently force me to reckon with my own outlandish hypocrisy._




I like this part.

_It’s outrageous! You can’t draw a straight line between two points. You need at least two other points, one of which is former President Barack Obama and another that is antifa._


----------



## Pumbaa

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I like this part.
> 
> _It’s outrageous! You can’t draw a straight line between two points. You need at least two other points, one of which is former President Barack Obama and another that is antifa._



But... But... But her e-mails!?

In any case, the Chewbacca Defense is probably the best strategy in the long run. Confuse the voters to avoid consequences  for senators’ votes to acquit.


----------



## shadow puppet

What the blazes does David Schoen think he's accomplishing?  He looks desperate. The extended Trump clips make the 45th look even worse and these repetitive "fight" clips are ridiculous.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360290717126586394/


----------



## JayMysteri0

I think what annoys me is these guys keep making stuff up that belongs in the TF Guy thread.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360314490944954381/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360315541009944581/


----------



## Alli

shadow puppet said:


> What the blazes does David Schoen think he's accomplishing? He looks desperate. The extended Trump clips make the 45th look even worse and these repetitive "fight" clips are ridiculous.



And the fact that they have had to alter the audio and video on every clip they’ve used is also concerning. What in hell did they do to the video of Jerry Nadler? They somehow made him look like he weighed 300 pounds. And adding spooky music to the soundtrack? I believe that was to cover the real audio cause the actual audio was damning.


----------



## shadow puppet

I turned it off.  They aren't going to convict.  So many GOP won't even attempt to listen so didn't show up.  It's a joke.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1358854940131794947/


----------



## Alli

And just like that, the defense rests. WTF. I would understand if Trump didn’t pay them.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Hear!  Hear!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360297762412056577/


----------



## shadow puppet

I am so angry right now.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360322101052399619/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360327736410202117/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360328681802133506/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360325812575174659/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Lawyer like client



> Trump lawyers keep accusing Democrats of manipulating evidence. But they’re doing that  themselves.
> 
> 
> Trump’s defense team is twisting words out of their context.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vox.com





> One example Trump’s lawyers homed in on pertains to comments Michigan state Rep. Cynthia Johnson (D) made in early December saying, “This is just a warning to you Trumpers … be careful, walk lightly.” The implication is that Johnson’s comments are just as bad as Trump encouraging a mob of his supports to descend on the Capitol while Congress was certifying his Electoral College loss, therefore Democrats don’t have a leg to stand on when accusing Trump of inciting insurrection.
> 
> But an examination of the context of Johnson’s remarks reveals that her comments were not at all what Trump’s lawyers made them out to be. Johnson made her “be careful” comments in response to threats she received from Trump supporters after a hearing in which she pushed back on lies about election fraud that Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani was pushing.





> Media Matters’s Eric Kleefeld laid out the relevant context in an article from December:
> 
> Johnson spoke bluntly at last week’s state legislative hearing, telling House Oversight Chairman Matt Hall that the witnesses presented by Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani should’ve been sworn in: “You’re allowing people to come in here and lie. And I know they’re lying.”
> 
> Following that hearing, she became the target of almost 100 racist and threatening phone calls, with multiple callers saying that she would be lynched and one woman telling her, “You should be swinging from a f------ rope, you Democrat.”
> 
> Johnson responded with a video posted Tuesday on Facebook, announcing that a woman who threatened her had been tracked down by the FBI and state police: “So, this is just a warning to you Trumpers — be careful, walk lightly. We ain’t playing with you. Enough of the shenanigans. Enough is enough.”
> 
> So, instead of threatening Trump supporters, Johnson’s comments were actually aimed at getting them to stop threatening her. In context, they actually reveal one of the ways in which Trump’s rhetoric incited his followers in the weeks leading up to January 6.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Also, when you go on to discuss the impeachment and don't have a fricken clue & need talking points
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1359919631687954440/
> 
> ...and you're a juror...



It's tragicomical. She's a newcomer and you can hear she's uncomfortable with the situation because of some rudimentary remnants of a spine. It's also ironic. If she's uncomfortable with it, she shouldn't go on MSNBC where she'd def. be confronted. And if she's confronted she shouldn't refer to precedent as something to define constitutionality. Sad and pathetic.


----------



## Eraserhead

shadow puppet said:


> I am so angry right now.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360322101052399619/
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360327736410202117/
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360328681802133506/
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360325812575174659/



I don’t think what the Republicans do matters - see https://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/democrats-have-won-the-impeachment-trial-already/36563/


----------



## iMi

The argument that Trump is entitled to first amendment protection in his case is absolutely ridiculous. If I said, "I believe all Nazis should be killed on the spot," that would be a protected, free speech. I am expressing personal opinion, perhaps one that is unpopular, but still very much an opinion. If I said to a large group of people, "Let's round up all the Nazis and kill them on the spot," that would be a specific, targeted threat toward a specific group of people. That would be incitement to violence. That's not a protected, free speech. 

What's so hard to understand about this?


----------



## iMi

Alli said:


> And just like that, the defense rests. WTF. I would understand if Trump didn’t pay them.




I would be surprised if he did, because that is literally what he does. If I was arrested for pissing on Trump's grave, I wouldn't call these guys, let alone a representation before the Senate. Then again, they are arguing a case that is a slam dunk in favor of the prosecution.


----------



## shadow puppet

No matter how this turns out, one huge bright point for me has been discovering Rep. Stacey Plaskett.  I hope to see more of her.


----------



## iMi

They kept bringing up the 74 million who voted for Trump. How this is divisive toward them. How about the 81 million who voted against him? Look, I'm sure murderers have families, friends and supporters. Should we no longer convict murderers because it may further divide their friends and families and those of the victims? Of course not.


----------



## User.45

iMi said:


> The argument that Trump is entitled to first amendment protection in his case is absolutely ridiculous. If I said, "I believe all Nazis should be killed on the spot," that would be a protected, free speech. I am expressing personal opinion, perhaps one that is unpopular, but still very much an opinion. If I said to a large group of people, "Let's round up all the Nazis and kill them on the spot," that would be a specific, targeted threat toward a specific group of people. That would be incitement to violence. That's not a protected, free speech.
> 
> What's so hard to understand about this?



What's really funny is Trump's twitter addiction timestamped the shit out of events. I never realized HOW MUCH the guy tweets until I wanted to check a July tweet of him in September and after 5 minutes of continuous scrolling I was still in the beginning of August.


----------



## Eraserhead

iMi said:


> I would be surprised if he did, because that is literally what he does. If I was arrested for pissing on Trump's grave, I wouldn't call these guys, let alone a representation before the Senate. Then again, they are arguing a case that is a slam dunk in favor of the prosecution.



Don’t forget literally no one good would defend Trump.


----------



## SuperMatt

As I suggested before, Trump’s lawyers just took a dump on the floor of the Senate chamber because they know it’s already decided. GOP Senators are morally bankrupt and hardly worthy of the title “human“, much less “United States Senator.” The lawyers literally refused to answer basic factual questions because… why should they?


----------



## SuperMatt

These Trump lawyers don’t even try to answer questions. They just yap and yap and poop out racist trash. Anybody that sides with these people are racist trash themselves.

I wanted to support my claim:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360296583179472896/


----------



## Thomas Veil

That guy Van see Veen is great at the Republican game of twisting things around. “Hatred should have no place in this chamber,” he says, implying the entire impeachment is about Democrats’ hate for Trump... conveniently ignoring that on Jan. 6 a _genuine_ hate mob stormed the Capitol, tried to steal the election and almost got our Congress killed. But this trial is all about hate for Donald Trump? Is he for real??

Then there’s Trump’s lawyers claiming Antifa was among the arrests. Again—really??

And Trump is a man of peace, and it wasn’t an insurrection anyway.

You’ve just left reality and entered...The Republican Zone.


----------



## SuperMatt

Thomas Veil said:


> That guy Van see Veen is great at the Republican game of twisting things around. “Hatred should have no place in this chamber,” he says, implying the entire impeachment is about Democrats’ hate for Trump... conveniently ignoring that on Jan. 6 a _genuine_ hate mob stormed the Capitol, tried to steal the election and almost got our Congress killed. But this trial is all about hate for Donald Trump? Is he for real??
> 
> Then there’s Trump’s lawyers claiming Antifa was among the arrests. Again—really??
> 
> And Trump is a man of peace, and it wasn’t an insurrection anyway.
> 
> You’ve just left reality and entered...The Republican Zone.



He was trying to do his best impression of an old-time TV lawyer, but it was a pathetic performance. When one cannot even acknowledge a question being asked, and instead starts talking about something completely unrelated, you know they‘ve got NOTHING.


----------



## JayMysteri0

With Pence & his safety becoming a growing focus in this trial, should anyone genuinely really be concerned?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360458521012273154/

If he doesn't want to speak up for himself...


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> With Pence & his safety becoming a growing focus in this trial, should anyone genuinely really be concerned?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360458521012273154/
> 
> If he doesn't want to speak up for himself...



From day one everybody knew Trump picked him because he’s just a stuffed suit. He didn’t want anybody competing for attention.


----------



## SuperMatt

The Trump “lawyer” is lecturing the Senate about their procedures and saying everybody has to come to his office in Philadelphia? He says video depositions aren’t legal? Since when? People have used them for decades… what a total bag of nuts.


----------



## Eric

Lindsey Graham voted to support calling witnesses


----------



## SuperMatt

ericgtr12 said:


> Lindsey Graham voted to support calling witnesses



He always has an angle. He’s in the news now, and perhaps he will want to call witnesses for the defense?


----------



## SuperMatt

Trump’s defense: you didn’t bring this case fast enough; Trump is out of office now.
Also Trump’s defense: This case has been rushed through! It’s so unfair!


----------



## JayMysteri0

Don't go getting my hopes 'r's!
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360456919043854336/
You have SOME people acting like adults, and it may spread...


----------



## JayMysteri0

Wait.  Wha?!
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360619858195546115/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Sorry, it's probably been a day since I said "TF Guy" about TF Guy
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360600370775552000/


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wait.  Wha?!
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360619858195546115/



They said his attorney wasn't even going to show up this morning and that Trump had to talk him into it.


----------



## Alli

ericgtr12 said:


> Lindsey Graham voted to support calling witnesses


----------



## Alli

Ted Cruz just recommended calling Pelosi as a witness because she might have said not to get extra security on 1/6 due to optics. 

Not sure why that proves Trump didn’t incite, but....


----------



## JayMysteri0

ericgtr12 said:


> They said his attorney wasn't even going to show up this morning and that Trump had to talk him into it.



They KNEW that.  It was the whole religious observance thing, then he flipped on it, making this whole thing a seven day a week occurrence.


----------



## MarkusL

JayMysteri0 said:


> It was the whole religious observance thing




Surely it's ok for Trump's lawyers to show up on a Sunday as long as they just rest and don't do any work?


----------



## JayMysteri0

MarkusL said:


> Surely it's ok for Trump's lawyers to show up on a Sunday as long as they just rest and don't do any work?



Supposedly even showing up is supposed to be a no no.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> View attachment 3479



One has to wonder if they thought this through, every witness called will have to have a majority vote. No way Dems are going to approve of frivolously calling people from their own party for political points and the Republicans who are siding with Dems won't join in unless they're relevant to the case. 

They're backs are against the wall here, Trump's legal team are in over their heads and even though they'll still likely never convict this will be center stage in the court of public opinion. It can only serve to hurt their party but they asked for it.


----------



## JayMysteri0

SuperMatt said:


> The Trump “lawyer” is lecturing the Senate about their procedures and saying everybody has to come to his office in Philadelphia? He says video depositions aren’t legal? Since when? People have used them for decades… what a total bag of nuts.



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360628077357768705/

Sometimes I am stunned out how meta real life can be.

If they need cameras, I'm sure the sex store next door can help out.


----------



## JayMysteri0

GO DEMS!!!


----------



## JayMysteri0

This
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360650518813638658/


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360609623741509632/

Make this stop already.


----------



## Eraserhead

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wait.  Wha?!
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360619858195546115/



This is probably why the Democratic Party caved on witnesses.

Because if Trumps people left who was he going to get instead? A public defender?

And McConnell could have (quite reasonably) asked for an adjournment. Letting impeachment run on and on will not be popular.




JayMysteri0 said:


> This
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360650518813638658/




Strictly they wanted 1 witness and they got a statement from them entered onto the record.


----------



## Eraserhead

.


----------



## Eraserhead

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360654807430742016/

If you take this and the above then the trial could easily have gone on another month. 2 week adjournment with no business for Trump to get new lawyers and then 2 weeks for witnesses.

And if the Dems refused an adjournment then the republicans could vote down impeachment because Trump didn’t get a fair trial which is a much, much more reasonable argument than whatever bullshit excuse they will use now.

EDIT: Given how much barrel scraping Trump has with his lawyers there could be *multiple* adjournments.


----------



## JayMysteri0

I NEED to believe this
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360662247001890817/


----------



## Huntn

shadow puppet said:


> I turned it off.  They aren't going to convict.  So many GOP won't even attempt to listen so didn't show up.  It's a joke.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1358854940131794947/



This country is experiencing a Constitutional Crisis. We in our wisdom have filled half of the Congress with people who have ZERO interest in honoring the Constitution, the rule of law, tradions and standards of integrity. I got shudders of fear listening to the blatant lies being told at the Stop the Steal rallies. We've got a whole army of mini-Trumps now trying to subvert every value we claim to hold dear for perceived self advantage... power over the sheep, the Kool Aid drunk sheep.

What we have now is  living in the age of the Cult of Trump, corruption up to our necks.  It's now a game of stump the dummies, while allowing the Kool-aid drinkers to pretend they are patriotic, that they believe in "the American way" while blatantly subverting the Constitution, and  using rationalization and lies to keep themselves content and fooled about what they have actually allowed to happen, the ongoing attempts to corrupt our democratic processes.  And it's not over yet, not by a long shot.

Thankfully I don't believe that most of us are anywhere close to wanting a civil war. Therefore I have hope. It was evident that Trump's corrupt tentacles were clearly not long enough to proclaim himself emperor. We can hope that the majority become engaged in the political process that steers the Nation. This last election Georgia flipped for a Democrat President.  We have a lot more work to do to make it into the sunlight and it's not assured by any means.

Now Team Trump Lawyers are starting their fool'd ya gyrations... 
Are you fooled?


----------



## SuperMatt

Raskin is asking “Is this America?” and reminding Senators that their decision will be remembered by history. He‘s making acquittal seem like an immoral and unpatriotic vote.


----------



## Pumbaa

SuperMatt said:


> Raskin is asking “Is this America?” and reminding Senators that their decision will be remembered by history. He‘s making acquittal seem like an immoral and unpatriotic vote.



Asking ”Is this America?” and reminding Senators that their decision will be remembered by history... Could be either side making that argument. Scary.


----------



## Thomas Veil

And I think we should remember that we should be careful with the word _acquittal. _

Trump will not be found innocent in this trial. The two standard verdicts are guilty and not guilty. The latter doesn’t mean you are innocent. It means the prosecution couldn’t prove its case to the satisfaction of the judge or jury.

Not guilty can mean anything from _You are innocent_ to _You got away with it_.  Given _this_ jury, it’ll definitely mean that he got away with it.


----------



## shadow puppet

If Trump isn't found guilty, the GOP will make sure we never hear the end of it.  Call it acquittal or not guilty (nothing against you @Thomas Veil), it means Trump, in some measure, got away with it.  That's what chaps my hide.


----------



## SuperMatt

The entire closing statement is a bunch of political gripes straight from Trump’s mouth. It has nothing to do with the case at all. F the GOP; they will let these ”lawyers” win a case without having successfully defended their client.


----------



## SuperMatt

Hearing LOTS of not guilty votes. This was a waste of time. Republican senators still kissing Trump’s ass. Pathetic traitors to their country. Zero respect for anybody that voted not guilty.


----------



## Thomas Veil

It’s over. 57 guilty votes, 43 not guilty votes. That’s a lot of craven, ass-kissing Republicans.

Chuck Todd referred to this as a permission slip to use violence in the pursuit of political goals. That pretty much says it.


----------



## shadow puppet

Effing cowards.  I'm utterly disgusted.  Sure hope karma is the witch she's known to be.


----------



## Thomas Veil

shadow puppet said:


> If Trump isn't found guilty, the GOP will make sure we never hear the end of it.  Call it acquittal or not guilty (nothing against you @Thomas Veil), it means Trump, in some measure, got away with it.  That's what chaps my hide.



_We_ need to make sure those 43 Senators never hear the end of it. We need to remind America of their treasonous behavior in every TV appearance they make and all through their next campaigns. We need to hang this like a millstone around their necks and let them sink to the bottom of the swamp they love residing in.


----------



## Thomas Veil

> "I'm just incredulous," Sen. Sherrod Brown, D-Ohio, told reporters before the vote on Friday. "Incredulous, except I've watched, I've watched my spineless colleagues walk around with fear in their eyes for four years. And so maybe I shouldn't be surprised."




I love my Senator.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...al-trump-wins-battle-republican-soul-n1257879


----------



## Scepticalscribe

Unfortunately, the impeachment motion was never - very regrettably - going to be carried; it needed too many Republican Senators to cross the floor and vote guilty (17), for it to be carried, and - with the current lot of Republican gutless, spineless, wonders - I'm not sure that I can see how that might come to pass.

However, if my understanding is correct, an Amendment 14 (section 3) motion - which would bar Mr Trump from holding office again - would be carried by a simple majority of one vote (i.e. 51 votes, rather than 67).


----------



## shadow puppet

I will definitely be avoiding any further coked out Trump Jr. videos.  He makes me postal.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1360416931334025216/


----------



## Clix Pix

Trump should still what he deserves when he has to face various criminal charges, and on the state level there are going to be several opportunities for that.....


----------



## Pumbaa

On the bright side, the House did a very good job framing the insurrection for posterity. That’s a clear win.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

I'm reading in various headlines that Mr Trump was "acquitted".

My understanding is that he was found "not guilty" (by pusillanimous Republicans) but that is not quite the same thing - in this particular context - as having been "acquitted".


----------



## Clix Pix

Scepticalscribe said:


> Unfortunately, the impeachment motion was never - very regrettably - going to be carried; it needed too many Republican Senators to cross the floor and vote guilty (17), for it to be carried, and - with the current lot of Republican gutless, spineless, wonders - I'm not sure that I can see how that might come to pass.
> 
> However, if my understanding is correct, an Amendment 14 (section 3) motion - which would bar Mr Trump from holding office again - would be carried by a simple majority of one vote (i.e. 51 votes, rather than 67).




Actually, now that he has been acquitted, they will not be voting on Amendment 14/section 3......  More's the pity!

_"If acquitted, Trump would have access to all the benefits of a former US president, including the option to run for public office."_


----------



## Alli

There is some part of me that admires McConnell’s remarks after the vote. He admitted that Trump was practically and morally responsible for what happened. He went further than the House Managers did, according to Rep. Raskin just now. It is unfortunate that he felt it was not his job to convict, rather the convictions should come from the DOJ and the states of GA and NY. I now feel certain that Trump will spend time in prison.

The House Managers were magnificent.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

Clix Pix said:


> Actually, now that he has been acquitted, they will not be voting on Amendment 14/section 3......  More's the pity!
> 
> _"If acquitted, Trump would have access to all the benefits of a former US president, including the option to run for public office."_




Can a motion on Amendment 14 (section 3) not be moved separately?


----------



## Alli

Scepticalscribe said:


> Can a motion on Amendment 14 (section 3) not be moved separately?



No. It requires a guilty vote.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

Clix Pix said:


> Trump should still what he deserves when he has to face various criminal charges, and on the state level there are going to be several opportunities for that.....



How I look forward to that.



Alli said:


> There is some part of me that admires McConnell’s remarks after the vote. He admitted that Trump was practically and morally responsible for what happened. He went further than the House Managers did, according to Rep. Raskin just now. It is unfortunate that he felt it was not his job to convict, rather the convictions should come from the DOJ and the states of GA and NY. *I now feel certain that Trump will spend time in prison.*
> 
> The House Managers were magnificent.



That cheers me up no end.


Alli said:


> No. It requires a guilty vote.



Ah.

Thanks for the clarification.

I had assumed (hoped?) that it could be moved separately.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Here's a list of the spineless Republican cowards who voted to acquit the man who supported and incited the illegal overthrow of our government:


John BarrassoMike CrapoJosh HawleyRoger MarshallRick ScottMarsha BlackburnTed CruzJohn HoevenMitch McConnellTim ScottRoy BluntSteve DainesCindy Hyde-SmithJerry MoranRichard ShelbyJohn BoozmanJoni ErnstJames M. InhofeRand PaulDan SullivanMike BraunDeb FischerRon JohnsonRob PortmanJohn ThuneShelley CapitoLindsey GrahamJohn KennedyJames RichThom TillisJohn CornynCharles E. GrassleyJames LankfordMike RoundsTommy TubervilleTom CottonBill HegartyMike LeeMarco RubioRoger WickerKevin CramerCynthia LummisTodd Young

We need to drag their names through the mud from now through their next election day.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Scepticalscribe said:


> I'm reading in various headlines that Mr Trump was "acquitted".
> 
> My understanding is that he was found "not guilty" (by pusillanimous Republicans) but that is not quite the same thing - in this particular context - as having been "acquitted".



You are correct. The word "acquitted" does not mean Trump was found innocent.

To quote myself earlier: 

Trump will not be found innocent in this trial. The two standard verdicts are guilty and not guilty. The latter doesn’t mean you are innocent. It means the prosecution couldn’t prove its case to the satisfaction of the judge or jury.

Not guilty can mean anything from _You are innocent_ to _You got away with it_. Given _this_ jury, it’ll definitely mean that he got away with it.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

Thomas Veil said:


> You are correct. The word "acquitted" does not mean Trump was found innocent.
> 
> To quote myself earlier:
> 
> Trump will not be found innocent in this trial. The two standard verdicts are guilty and not guilty. The latter doesn’t mean you are innocent. It means the prosecution couldn’t prove its case to the satisfaction of the judge or jury.
> 
> Not guilty can mean anything from _You are innocent_ to _You got away with it_. Given _this_ jury, it’ll definitely mean that he got away with it.




Thank you.

In turn, that prompts two observations.

Firstly, the usual Troglodytes will try to paint this as having reached a verdict of "innocent" (rather than, "not proven" to the satisfaction of the jury in question).

And, secondly, given that this - outrageous, treasonable, life-threatening conduct - was "not proven", it does set the bar for what is adjudged to be "reasonable" behaviour or conduct from an American president (at least, from a Republican President, for Democrats - needless to say - will be held to a different, and higher, standard of behaviour and conduct), depressingly low.


----------



## Huntn

All the GOP senators stood around the bowl staring at the water and commented:
_What an ugly filthy turd floating there, hear it raving? This is what we embraced for 4 years, got it’s slimey stench all over our lapels, don’t smell your fingers!_

After a few moments of thought...
_But you know, after a while the smell no longer curdles your stomach, and our favorite Koolaid drinkers back home will never forgive us if we push the handle down. Let’s let it float a bit longer, maybe it will dissolve and turn into inert putrid brown water.  Then we‘ll have the courage to flush.  _

_



_In the want your cake and eat it too Dept.​


----------



## Thomas Veil

Another reason that even though Trump will view this as an acquittal, it is not:

The Founding Fathers set what appears to be an impossibly high standard for conviction. In what other setting would you score 43 points to your opponent's 57 points, and you are declared the winner?

*A 57-43 majority of the Senate considers him guilty as charged.* That's not exactly something to crow about.



Huntn said:


> _
> 
> 
> 
> _​




Ohh! He was doing so well up until the end. He should've stopped at 1:55.


----------



## Eraserhead

Huntn said:


> This country is experiencing a Constitutional Crisis. We in our wisdom have filled half of the Congress with people who have ZERO interest in honoring the Constitution, the rule of law, tradions and standards of integrity. I got shudders of fear listening to the blatant lies being told at the Stop the Steal rallies. We've got a whole army of mini-Trumps now trying to subvert every value we claim to hold dear for perceived self advantage... power over the sheep, the Kool Aid drunk sheep.



It got the most votes by the same party as the person being impeached ever. The flaw is with impeachment itself.

Really it should go to the Supreme Court and need 75%. personally I think the first impeachment would have been 7-2 and this one would have been 9-0.


----------



## Huntn

Eraserhead said:


> It got the most votes by the same party as the person being impeached ever. The flaw is with impeachment itself.
> 
> Really it should go to the Supreme Court and need 75%. personally I think the first impeachment would have been 7-2 and this one would have been 9-0.



Maybe... while admitting, impeachment is a questionable, impossible exercise in a political body.


----------



## SuperMatt

Scepticalscribe said:


> I'm reading in various headlines that Mr Trump was "acquitted".
> 
> My understanding is that he was found "not guilty" (by pusillanimous Republicans) but that is not quite the same thing - in this particular context - as having been "acquitted".



The president pro tempore used the word acquit when announcing the verdict…


----------



## SuperMatt

Huntn said:


> Maybe... while admitting, impeachment is a questionable, impossible exercise in a political body.



It was not always so. Hopefully this version of the Republican party will fade into oblivion soon. And to be clear, I’m not saying that both parties would protect their own no matter what. We saw with Al Franken that the Democrats hold their principles above party loyalty. It is specifically the GOP that will defend one of their members no matter what the crime.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Bill Cassidy is already being censured by the Louisiana state party for his guilty vote. Unanimously, too.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/louisiana-gop-votes-to-censure-cassidy-over-impeachment-vote/ar-BB1dF143https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/louisiana-gop-votes-to-censure-cassidy-over-impeachment-vote/ar-BB1dF143https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/louisiana-gop-votes-to-censure-cassidy-over-impeachment-vote/ar-BB1dF143

Punishing him for doing the right thing—that says a _lot_ more about them than it does about Cassidy.


----------



## SuperMatt

Thomas Veil said:


> Bill Cassidy is already being censured by the Louisiana state party for his guilty vote. Unanimously, too.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/louisiana-gop-votes-to-censure-cassidy-over-impeachment-vote/ar-BB1dF143https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/louisiana-gop-votes-to-censure-cassidy-over-impeachment-vote/ar-BB1dF143https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/louisiana-gop-votes-to-censure-cassidy-over-impeachment-vote/ar-BB1dF143
> 
> Punishing him for doing the right thing—that says a _lot_ more about them than it does about Cassidy.



All these people being censured by their party should switch parties. They hold the seat, not their party. They could become independents at least.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> All these people being censured by their party should switch parties. They hold the seat, not their party. They could become independents at least.




We are witnessing the destruction of the Republican party, which for those on the left should be "Yay!" but it's still disturbing.  And if we're going to be honest there should be another party to balance things out.


----------



## Clix Pix

Me, I'm just waiting for the day when we see "the Donald" being led out and escorted from his home or some building in the classic "perp walk," handcuffed and being taken straight to a jail for booking.....   And later, after he has lost his case(s) at trial, being booked into prison to serve his term, not-so-stylishly attired in an orange jumpsuit or whatever the inmates wear these days.....   That day can't come soon enough.  Probably they wouldn't be able to put him into Gen Pop, given his history and that other inmates might not be terribly fond of him.....


----------



## lizkat

I guess Mitch basically voted "Not Guilty With An Asterisk".

His own legacy will now carry at least one asterisk for voting one way and then excoriating Trump's behavior (yet again) not even an hour later.   His needle threading act is getting really old.

I've seen the Senate do some stupid things in 60 years of watching them,  but this will get more than a footnote in history.   I hope the Republic survives to let historians feel free to write it all up properly after the dust settles. 

And I hope the dust doesn't settle until after an independent commission looks at details of how this all came to happen, and after Trump himself faces some criminal charges as a private citizen.  His behavior after the election,  leading up to and during the violent Capitol incursion -- precisely when the Congress was obliged to meet in joint session with the VP presiding to certify Biden's victory--  was not coincidental or whimsical.  And he has yet to issue a believable renunciation of what happened on January 6th. Still "loves" his followers...  

How the RNC can still allow Trump to carry the GOP's banner forward after the way he behaved is inexplicable, except as an admission they only care to retain all of his followers as potential 2022 voters.   What a terrible joke.   A lot of those arrested at the Capitol turned out not even to be voters anyway per CNN who had looked into their voting records.  And hundreds of thousands of registered Republicans have already changed their registrations, leaving the GOP after the January 6th attack on the Capitol.


----------



## Huntn

Thomas Veil said:


> Bill Cassidy is already being censured by the Louisiana state party for his guilty vote. Unanimously, too.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/louisiana-gop-votes-to-censure-cassidy-over-impeachment-vote/ar-BB1dF143https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/louisiana-gop-votes-to-censure-cassidy-over-impeachment-vote/ar-BB1dF143https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/louisiana-gop-votes-to-censure-cassidy-over-impeachment-vote/ar-BB1dF143
> 
> Punishing him for doing the right thing—that says a _lot_ more about them than it does about Cassidy.



Kool Aid is a big seller in La. Disgusting, the idea of censuring because of doing the right thing.


----------



## User.45

Huntn said:


> Kool Aid is a big seller in La. Disgusting, the idea of censuring because of doing the right thing.



I find it hilarious. It means they do like to keep people accountable...just not the ones we want reprimanded..


----------



## Scepticalscribe

Clix Pix said:


> Me, I'm just waiting for the day when we see "the Donald" being led out and escorted from his home or some building in the classic "perp walk," handcuffed and being taken straight to a jail for booking.....   And later, after he has lost his case(s) at trial, being booked into prison to serve his term, not-so-stylishly attired in an orange jumpsuit or whatever the inmates wear these days.....   That day can't come soon enough.  Probably they wouldn't be able to put him into Gen Pop, given his history and that other inmates might not be terribly fond of him.....




Oh, yes.   Absolutely.  

I couldn't agree more with you; a heartfelt and profound amen to this post.  Well said.


----------



## Eric

This is what Republicans have celebrated over the last 4 years...

2016 Trump lost by 
2.87 million votes

2020 Trump lost by
7+ million votes

Impeachment for insurrection
Guilty 57
Not Guilty 43

We shouldn't be blaming Republicans, we should be reforming the system.


----------



## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> This is what Republicans have celebrated over the last 4 years...
> 
> 2016 Trump lost by
> 2.87 million votes
> 
> 2020 Trump lost by
> 7+ million votes
> 
> Impeachment for insurrection
> Guilty 57
> Not Guilty 43
> 
> We shouldn't be blaming Republicans, we should be reforming the system.



The split electorate system would fix things, because it would prevent candidates from taking a dump on parts of the country considered unlikely to vote for them. It would also be a lot more fair. It's insane that an election of 7M difference (~4%) in popular vote gets decided by 0.02% of the votes. Thats a ≥200x multiplier in vote value in some battle ground states. It would also add an extra layer of accountability to administrations.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> The split electorate system would fix things, because it would prevent candidates from taking a dump on parts of the country considered unlikely to vote for them. It would also be a lot more fair. It's insane that an election of 7M difference (~4%) in popular vote gets decided by 0.02% of the votes. Thats a ≥200x multiplier in vote value in some battle ground states. It would also add an extra layer of accountability to administrations.



The electoral college was created to allow slave-holding states to get representation in the government without actually allowing the slaves to vote. An honest reading of history would make one want to get rid of it immediately.


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## User.168

.


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## Thomas Veil

Absolutely! McConnell doesn’t get to delay Trump’s trial and then call Trump out on it as if Mitch is arguing from some sort of moral high ground. Fuck you, Yertel!


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## Edd

Mitch is having it both ways. He knows Trump should suffer consequences but he’s not going to personally pull the levers to make it happen.

He amazes me at this point. He lacks looks and charm but thrives in the business of politics.


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## User.168

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## User.45

Thomas Veil said:


> Absolutely! McConnell doesn’t get to delay Trump’s trial and then call Trump out on it as if Mitch is arguing from some sort of moral high ground. Fuck you, Yertel!



He's trying to save face and mitigate the blow from trumpists concurrently. I think it's a miscalculation on his end. His attempt to avoid being "fatally" alienated by one group, will result in losing respect from both. He's also not young enough to ever have enough time to recover from this. This is his legacy.


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## Eraserhead

Edd said:


> Mitch is having it both ways. He knows Trump should suffer consequences but he’s not going to personally pull the levers to make it happen.
> 
> He amazes me at this point. He lacks looks and charm but thrives in the business of politics.



I don’t think Mitch is that great at the business of politics. He mostly just delays stuff and has virtually no ideas of his own.


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## User.45

Eraserhead said:


> I don’t think Mitch is that great at the business of politics. He mostly just delays stuff and has virtually no ideas of his own.



That's my issue with the GOP's philosophy in general. Making it your mission to prove government doesn't work is along the same line of denying climate change.
1. It's a universal method for criticizing your political opponents in power
2. It's a universal method for denying culpability when shit happens when you're in power
3. The actual fall out will be dealt with by those who don't share these values, so no worries about having to work extra hard.

Ultimately, this is my interpretation of superior economic numbers under Dem administrations. On the flip side, I could make the argument that the GOP's advocating for small government and conscious spending works well in opposition as a check and balance. But the minimum requirement of such is to pass a certain sanity threshold, which seems to be a systemic GOP issue.


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## JayMysteri0

Why some of us LOVE the Daily News, over the post.




They Daily News has made some great front pages


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## Eraserhead

P_X said:


> That's my issue with the GOP's philosophy in general. Making it your mission to prove government doesn't work is along the same line of denying climate change.
> 1. It's a universal method for criticizing your political opponents in power
> 2. It's a universal method for denying culpability when shit happens when you're in power
> 3. The actual fall out will be dealt with by those who don't share these values, so no worries about having to work extra hard.
> 
> Ultimately, this is my interpretation of superior economic numbers under Dem administrations. On the flip side, I could make the argument that the GOP's advocating for small government and conscious spending works well in opposition as a check and balance. But the minimum requirement of such is to pass a certain sanity threshold, which seems to be a systemic GOP issue.




yeah but writing a campaign ad with 50 words not 500 and zero policy is something many people on the left can’t handle. Plus campaigning and only talking about competence and value for money.


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## Huntn

P_X said:


> I find it hilarious. It means they do like to keep people accountable...just not the ones we want reprimanded..



The Head Turd is still floating in the bowl shouting orders, and the Congressional Republicans are intent on ressurecting a nation... or are they?

We know there is an element of slobbering idiots still kowtowing to the toilet bowl as their party withers. They will never ever be able to call themselves the fiscally responsible or the law and order party, without being called on it. If we are lucky, this will be a collective move to the left in the USA.





__





						Mass Exodus From Republican Party Accelerates
					

One MSNBC pundit said that the Republican Party is alive but it is dead inside. During the first day of the Donald Trump’s impeachment trial deux, Republicans in the Senate shuffled papers rather than look at the horrifying video portraying the timeline of events. Some of them were bored, others...




					bipartisanreport.com


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Another shrewd strategic move by McConnell suggesting the justice department go after Trump. Despite Biden saying he won’t be involved in the just department's decisions, especially about Trump, it will still be seen as controlled and orchestrated by Biden and the Democrats. The Biden administration just wants to put Trump behind him. If the justice department doesn’t go after Trump then it will be seen as Democrats not really being all that upset about what happened. If it does go after Trump then it will be advertised to the right that it’s just a vendetta publicity stunt.


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## Eraserhead

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Another shrewd strategic move by McConnell suggesting the justice department go after Trump. Despite Biden saying he won’t be involved in the just department's decisions, especially about Trump, it will still be seen as controlled and orchestrated by Biden and the Democrats. The Biden administration just wants to put Trump behind him. If the justice department doesn’t go after Trump then it will be seen as Democrats not really being all that upset about what happened. If it does go after Trump then it will be advertised to the right that it’s just a vendetta publicity stunt.



Seems like a reach when McConnell is on the record suggesting it.


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## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> Why some of us LOVE the Daily News, over the post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They Daily News has made some great front pages



One thing has been proven, that Impeachment as the only means of disciplining an out of self control President is an illusion, a fantasy. As far as Congress is concerned Presidents are above the law.   

However, Donny and his favorite Gutless Offensive Pathetic Party of Clowns are soaked in corruption. This kind of publicity has to have an adverse effect.   Some of us on the right appear to be pouring those cups of Koolaid back over their heads.



The Trump Band Wagon has shrunk since 2017



...Still animated



Prophetic and Epic...​


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Eraserhead said:


> Seems like a reach when McConnell is on the record suggesting it.




I don’t think it’s a reach.  McConnell hates Trump and what he did to the party, yet he voted to acquit, thus washing his hands of personal responsibility in the eyes of Trump voters.


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## Eraserhead

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I don’t think it’s a reach.  McConnell hates Trump and what he did to the party, yet he voted to acquit, thus washing his hands of personal responsibility in the eyes of Trump voters.



I think honestly the republicans will blame “the government” to their primary voters (quite possibly offline) which is nearly as good and harder for the Democratic Party to say “you supported this”


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## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Another shrewd strategic move by McConnell suggesting the justice department go after Trump. Despite Biden saying he won’t be involved in the just department's decisions, especially about Trump, it will still be seen as controlled and orchestrated by Biden and the Democrats. The Biden administration just wants to put Trump behind him. If the justice department doesn’t go after Trump then it will be seen as Democrats not really being all that upset about what happened. If it does go after Trump then it will be advertised to the right that it’s just a vendetta publicity stunt.



Here is rooting for the SDNY...


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## Huntn

Send your suggestion for the new GOP logo to your Republican Senators, something incorporating:


*GOP*​


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Eraserhead said:


> I think honestly the republicans will blame “the government” to their primary voters (quite possibly offline) which is nearly as good and harder for the Democratic Party to say “you supported this”




The Republicans are in a real pickle.  Basically, they are asking "Do you want Trump or do you want a return to the party that made Trump look like a better option?"


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> Send your suggestion for the new GOP logo to your Republican Senators, something incorporating:
> 
> View attachment 3515
> *GOP*​




I think something involving the decaying corpse of a confederate soldier would also be appropriate.


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## User.45

Huntn said:


> Send your suggestion for the new GOP logo to your Republican Senators, something incorporating:
> 
> View attachment 3515
> *GOP*​




I sure found their new website:








						goop | A modern lifestyle brand.
					

Cutting-edge wellness advice from doctors, vetted travel recommendations, and a curated shop of clean beauty, fashion, and home.




					goop.com


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## User.168

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## Thomas Veil

I have no words for this.



			New York Times: Adam Kinzinger shunned by family members over Trump criticism
		



> "It is now most embarrassing to us that we are related to you," they continued in the letter, which was dated January 8, after Kinzinger called for the 25th Amendment to be used to remove Trump from office. "You have embarrassed the Kinzinger family name!"





> Kiniznger told the Times that the family members who signed the letter are experiencing "brainwashing" from conservative churches that have misled them.





> "I hold nothing against them,'' he told the paper, "but I have zero desire or feel the need to reach out and repair that. That is 100% on them to reach out and repair, and quite honestly, I don't care if they do or not."





> "My dad's cousins sent me a petition -- a certified letter -- saying they disowned me because I'm in 'the devil's army' now," he told Business Insider last month. "It's been crazy, when you have friends -- that you thought were good friends that would love you no matter what -- that don't."


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## Thomas Veil

Huntn said:


> Send your suggestion for the new GOP logo to your Republican Senators, something incorporating:
> 
> View attachment 3515
> *GOP*​




Bill Maher’s suggestion:

​


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Thomas Veil said:


> I have no words for this.
> 
> 
> 
> New York Times: Adam Kinzinger shunned by family members over Trump criticism




That's going to save him some money on Christmas presents.


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## Huntn

P_X said:


> I sure found their new website:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goop | A modern lifestyle brand.
> 
> 
> Cutting-edge wellness advice from doctors, vetted travel recommendations, and a curated shop of clean beauty, fashion, and home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goop.com



Why you picking on Goop?


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## Huntn

Thomas Veil said:


> I have no words for this.
> 
> 
> 
> New York Times: Adam Kinzinger shunned by family members over Trump criticism



If you need an example of TDS, this is it. Ironically  it was the Kool Aid drinkers who coined the term (I think) to project their illness on to those who have a problem with The Head Shit. Even though he has been tossed out, he still retains that title.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> If you need an example of TDS, this is it. Ironically  it was the Kool Aid drinkers who coined the term (I think) to project their illness on to those who have a problem with The Head Shit. Even though he has been tossed out, he still retains that title.




I’m pretty sure God would take issue with their Trump worship, character flaws aside, he’s not God.

I’m vaguely remembering a comedian bit where God is telling his worshippers to stop doing this shit in his name.  He never told them to do it (whatever it is).


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## Chew Toy McCoy

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/16/politics/capitol-lawsuit-trump-giuliani-proud-boys-oath-keepers/index.html

As much as I hate Trump and hold responsible, I don’t think he carefully coordinated with anybody. He knew what he was doing but it’s not like he called up the proud boys and said “Here’s the plan”.

Possibly related, I’m curious what they think they’ll find that wasn’t allowed or even requested in the impeachment trial. It was all blatantly in the open.

Maybe for this trial Trump can use the Charles Manson defense.  “Brother, I didn’t make anybody do anything.”  But that didn’t really work out as a defense.


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## User.168

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## Chew Toy McCoy




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## Thomas Veil

As the trial has been over for a week and the reactions have settled down, I'm going to "un-sticky" this topic.


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## Thomas Veil

Heh. No sooner do I say this topic is kinda “over”, when this happens:









						GOP Staffers In Congress Say They're In Agony — At Least Privately — HuffPost
					

Shaken by the actions of Republican lawmakers before and after Jan. 6, many aides say they feel trapped.




					apple.news
				






> ...many Republican staffers on Capitol Hill are privately having some of their greatest reservations about continuing to serve GOP members who continue to serve Trump.





> “I don’t know a single person who works as a staffer for a senator or representative who isn’t angry and horrified at the lack of accountability their bosses are taking,” one Republican staffer told HuffPost.





> This staffer later went on to say they had checked in with about 50 friends who work for Republicans on Capitol Hill since Jan. 6, and 49 were “struggling and very, very angry.”





> ...many more Republican staffers were struggling with the actual ethics of continuing to work for members who have stood by Trump, who have refused to acknowledge that Joe Biden won the election, who have voted to overturn the election results, and who refused to vote for impeachment or conviction.




It’s nice to know that _somebody_ on Capitol Hill besides Democrats is upset about this.

It’s just too bad they’re powerless to do anything about it.


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