# FBI executed search warrant at Mar-a-Lago



## Cmaier

Word spreading on twitter. CNN reporter says trump admitted it. Don’t have a link other than twitter.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556775176783667202/


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## GermanSuplex

Ah, the news and politics forums are back up! Great… made me a little sad to see them go.

The FBI raised Moron-Lardo and the TA news forums are back… now that’s what I call a good Monday!

Now, how long until Trump announces his run to dodge accountability?


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## Eric

Would be nice to see some real tangible action taken against him, looking at the indictments and investigations they've been churning out it's getting ugly for a lot of them.


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## Cmaier

“These are dark times for our Nation, as my beautiful home, Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, is currently under siege, raided, and occupied by a large group of FBI agents,” Mr. Trump said in the statement. “Nothing like this has ever happened to a President of the United States before,” Mr. Trump said.

LOL


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## GermanSuplex

Cmaier said:


> “These are dark times for our Nation, as my beautiful home, Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, is currently under siege, raided, and occupied by a large group of FBI agents,” Mr. Trump said in the statement. “Nothing like this has ever happened to a President of the United States before,” Mr. Trump said.
> 
> LOL




Yeah, it’s never happened before because we’ve never had a bigger corrupt piece of shit in office. We also never had a president refuse to concede or commit to a peaceful transfer of power. I’m so sick of this victimhood mentality of the biggest grifter, con and liar I’ve ever seen. How people fall for this crap is beyond me.

As mad as his cult will be, they’ll get over. Sure, there’s nut jobs out there, but the vast majority of them have jobs and families and aren’t going to risk it all just because Fatty Dumb Dumb goes to prison. Most will move on with their life and find a new loser hero, like Ron DeSantis, and the stupid ones who try to seek some sort of revenge will be arrested and start crying when they’re treated like any other criminal, just like the January 6 stooge army found out.

Just for fun, I flipped over to Faux News, and they had Dan Bongino whining about Hunter Biden. 

I watched another minute on Fox, and the amount of misleading and lying to their audience is stunning. Literally less than a minute, and they say “Trump should be in court to defend himself, not raided”. Uh, this is how you GET to court. The lying, gaslighting and worshipping of Trump om Fox is insane. They called him the “most transparent president in history”. LOL!

They’re asking why the secret service didn’t “stop” the FBI too… Wow, they are really stepping up their rhetoric. It’s insane.


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## Eric

Nixon comes to mind, not sure about the specifics around FBI searches/warrants though.


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## GermanSuplex

Fox is selling this to their audience as if this isn’t routine, as if criminals or suspects aren’t raided all the time. There’s probable cause, judges sign off… it’s called a search warrant, and it’s nothing new. Yea, it’s unprecedented to have it happen to a former president, but that’s not what they’re selling. They’re selling this as if Trump is entitled to special treatment. No wonder why Fox viewers are so incredibly misinformed.


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## LIVEFRMNYC

They better have found something, or else Trump is going to play this up to his base like a muthafuca.


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## Eric

LIVEFRMNYC said:


> They better have found something, or else Trump is going to play this up to his base like a muthafuca.



Hopefully they're putting all of the politics aside and just following procedure, letting the facts dictate their path forward. My guess is they'll play it all by the book and cover every base.


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## GermanSuplex

LIVEFRMNYC said:


> They better have found something, or else Trump is going to play this up to his base like a muthafuca.




If this was all swept under the rug, he’d keep harping about a “stolen election” and bragging how they found nothing on him. He’s always going to lie to his base no matter what, so I think holding him accountable is worth the short-term damage. Nobody will care in a few years. His supporters will move on to their next cult idol.

His supporters should be asking why all of Trump’s appointees turned on him at some point or another. Chris Wray isn’t some democrat hack, he was Trump’s appointed FBI director.

The Trump-Cult’s unwillingness to see any of this rationally and to constantly deflect blame to anyone and everyone but Trump is half the reason we’re here.


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## Alli

I expect they’ll find many boxes of classified documents. Who knows what else.

All I know is I’m giddy over this.


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## mac_in_tosh

Alli said:


> I expect they’ll find many boxes of classified documents. Who knows what else.



If the documents haven't already been flushed down a toilet.


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## GermanSuplex

mac_in_tosh said:


> If the documents haven't already been flushed down a toilet.




Axios published pictures from an upcoming book purporting to show proof of Trump’s penchant for flushing documents….









						Exclusive: See the Trump toilet photos that he denies ever existed
					

Destroying records that should be preserved is potentially illegal.




					www.axios.com
				




I fully expect the argument from the right will be “he had absolute authority to declassify and take whatever he wanted”.


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## mac_in_tosh

GermanSuplex said:


> The Trump-Cult’s unwillingness to see any of this rationally and to constantly deflect blame to anyone and everyone but Trump is half the reason we’re here.



That's what is most disturbing, that so many people are willing to overlook Trump's many flaws and transgressions and say they would vote for him again even after he incited a violent attack on the Capitol and enjoyed watching it on t.v. for over three hours. He's the darling of the religious right yet he never attends church, he cheated on all three of his wives and he paid hush money to a porn star. He's admired as a shrewd businessman yet he has a string of bankruptcies and what he has achieved was tainted by cheating. He's considered strong on the military yet he dodged the draft with a phoney doctor's letter. And of course he lies constantly. What exactly is the reason for the loyalty to such a horrible person?


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## mac_in_tosh

GermanSuplex said:


> I fully expect the argument from the right will be “he had absolute authority to declassify and take whatever he wanted”.



Ironic after Trump made such a big deal about "crooked Hillary" and her emails.


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## lizkat

mac_in_tosh said:


> If the documents haven't already been flushed down a toilet.




It has apparently never bothered Trump to bend or break norms, rules, laws...  that's what he figures his raft of lawyers has existed for,  to clean up behind him as he does whatever the F he feels like doing or saying.  

Totally disconnected from reality.   Will be amazing if someone finally wires him into it.


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## lizkat

Eric said:


> Hopefully they're putting all of the politics aside and just following procedure, letting the facts dictate their path forward. My guess is they'll play it all by the book and cover every base.




I hope to God.  Otherwise this is a gift to The Don and his hijacked party for sure.


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## LIVEFRMNYC

They broke into his safe.


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## Cmaier

LIVEFRMNYC said:


> They broke into his safe.



They had to, in order to get to the Pee Tapes.


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## Cmaier

Here’s the thing, ladies and gentlemen.  FBI isn’t going to get a warrant to raid a former president because he took home some papers.  And they aren’t going to convince a judge that they need to break into a safe to prove the crime of misplacing some documents.

It’s the CONTENT of those documents that’s going to end up being important - he took them to hide them for a reason.

At least that’s what I predict.


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## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> “These are dark times for our Nation, as my beautiful home, Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, is currently under siege, raided, and occupied by a large group of FBI agents,” Mr. Trump said in the statement. “Nothing like this has ever happened to a President of the United States before,” Mr. Trump said.
> 
> LOL




Seen by a friend on the net



> From “Unvirtuous Abbey”, a Facebook page:
> 
> “Lord, whose day will come like a thief in the night, that you may enter our hearts like a surprise FBI raid on a home in Florida, we pray. #MarAlago”


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## Yoused

Eric said:


> Would be nice to see some real tangible action taken against him



The FBI would have hauled Individual-ONE in but they are waiting on TSMC to get down to a process node in which they can make handcuffs that will stay on him.


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## lizkat

Yoused said:


> The FBI would have hauled Individual-ONE in but they are waiting on TSMC to get down to a process node in which they can make handcuffs that will stay on him.




Honestly if Trump doesn't finally go down for something we should just strike "rule of law" from American usage. I wouldn't care if it's a littering charge.  Throwing ketchup on a wall in the White House must be at least a misdemeanor.

This guy was a President of the USA, required by his oath upon inauguration to enforce our laws, and I've never seen anyone else in that highest level of elective office in the USA so frankly and frequently contemptuous of the body of law enabled by our constitution, the congress and courts.   He strutted on the stage of his presidency with a big F U to anyone and anything he perceived as standing in the way of his getting whatever he wanted when he wanted it.   He's a blot on the ledger of our history like no other President has been, and we've had some clunkers in the list for sure.


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## sgtaylor5

and all of this on the anniversary on Nixon announcing his resignation from the Presidency.


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## lizkat

sgtaylor5 said:


> and all of this on the anniversary on Nixon announcing his resignation from the Presidency.




Hah, I plastered the walls of my apartment's bathroom with front pages of the NY Post all that summer.

That one was the last in the series on the redoubtable Mr. Nixon.

In retrospect now he could pass for a deacon in the average mainline church.


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## Runs For Fun

And of course his cult is out in full force
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556808707895328769/


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## fooferdoggie

And of course republicans are accusing democrats of a political judicial attack. Funny they were fine with it when trump did it.


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## lizkat

Eric Trump weighed in....

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556811923219423233/


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## Eric

This is not looking good for Trump

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556779897229660163/


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## lizkat

The memes are really kicking in on this topic

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556850749811957761/


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## Nycturne

What I find interesting is that while the committee has been focusing on Jan 6th, the DOJ has been focusing on possible criminal handling of government material. 

This feels to me a little like getting Al Capone for tax evasion. This is something simple, concrete, and easy to describe to potential jury. Did he improperly handle government material and records, or not? It’s not about trying to pin his lackey’s behaviors to him, it’s not about if a call represented quid pro quo. It’s a simpler question with a more clear yes/no answer.

One that some people seem to claim may prevent him from being able to hold public office again if convicted. 

If accurate, I could totally see this as a smart play by the DOJ.


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## lizkat

Nycturne said:


> What I find interesting is that while the committee has been focusing on Jan 6th, the DOJ has been focusing on possible criminal handling of government material.
> 
> This feels to me a little like getting Al Capone for tax evasion. This is something simple, concrete, and easy to describe to potential jury. Did he improperly handle government material and records, or not? It’s not about trying to pin his lackey’s behaviors to him, it’s not about if a call represented quid pro quo. It’s a simpler question with a more clear yes/no answer.
> 
> One that some people seem to claim may prevent him from being able to hold public office again if convicted.
> 
> If accurate, I could totally see this as a smart play by the DOJ.




Yeah it's about a provision in 18 USC 2071


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## AG_PhamD

I will say I am a little concerned about this. The FBI better be sure whatever it is they were looking for was in Mar-a-Lago and successfully retrieved. Otherwise it will added to his list of Russiagate, the dossier, etc and frankly already has been touted as such. Which will only empower and embolden him and his supporters further. 

Is Trump stupid enough to hold illegally obtained documents in his home… very possibly. He being someone who owns properties all over the world you’d think he’d want them as hidden as possible.


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## Eric

AG_PhamD said:


> I will say I am a little concerned about this. The FBI better be sure whatever it is they were looking for was in Mar-a-Lago and successfully retrieved. Otherwise it will added to his list of Russiagate, the dossier, etc and frankly already has been touted as such. Which will only empower and embolden him and his supporters further.



I don't see how it won't be viewed as political, even when he has his own appointees involved, I'm betting they're being really careful and legal about every step though and in the end we'll be seeing unbiased fact based evidence.



AG_PhamD said:


> *Is Trump stupid enough to hold illegally obtained documents in his home*… very possibly. He being someone who owns properties all over the world you’d think he’d want them as hidden as possible.



In his mind he sees all of the illegal actions he's taken as justified, he's a sociopath and I have no doubt he not only had them, but bragged about it to his inner circle leading to the feds probably knowing exactly where to find them.


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## Nycturne

AG_PhamD said:


> Which will only empower and embolden him and his supporters further.




At this point, we see members of the GOP already looking to escalate. McCarthy and some far out there types in Florida in particular. There’s going to be blowback no matter what. These are unprecedented times.

Honestly it’s dammed if you do, damned if you don’t if their base keeps supporting them. Pursue an investigation of wrongdoing, you embolden them. Don’t pursue it, and you embolden them. And that’s the point: make it an impossible choice. At some point you have to just do what the law requires and let the historians sort it out later. At least if you want any hope of maintaining your system of government.


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## Eric

Nycturne said:


> At this point, we see members of the GOP already looking to escalate. McCarthy and some far out there types in Florida in particular. There’s going to be blowback no matter what. These are unprecedented times.
> 
> Honestly it’s dammed if you do, damned if you don’t if their base keeps supporting them. Pursue an investigation of wrongdoing, you embolden them. Don’t pursue it, and you embolden them. And that’s the point: make it an impossible choice. At some point you have to just do what the law requires and let the historians sort it out later. At least if you want any hope of maintaining your system of government.



Right, there's not much that can be done to avoid that other than being careful to make sure every action is legal and above board within the investigation. Other than that what are they supposed to do, let the party of "law and order" scream about giving Trump a free pass? It's ridiculous. If they have something legitimate on him they should act accordingly, like they would any other US citizen.


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## GermanSuplex

What?!! He’s proving the libs were right… and we didn’t have to wait long for details.

I guess I never though of Mar—Lago being a spy haven, but it makes sense. He had people from all over with no discretion if they’re paying “guests”.

He’s going to prison or will be barred from holding elected office. Or both.

_The result was an extraordinary dynamic: A former American president took these secret materials to an unsecured venue known as a haven for spies._










						The problem with Trump’s response to the FBI ‘raid’ at Mar-a-Lago
					

After the FBI executed a search warrant at Mar-a-Lago, Donald Trump tried to push back with a lengthy defense. It’s amazing just how unpersuasive it was.




					www.msnbc.com


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## Eric

GermanSuplex said:


> What?!! He’s proving the libs were right… and we didn’t have to wait long for details.
> 
> He’s going to prison or will be barred from holding elected office. Or both.
> 
> _The result was an extraordinary dynamic: A former American president took these secret materials to an unsecured venue known as a haven for spies._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with Trump’s response to the FBI ‘raid’ at Mar-a-Lago
> 
> 
> After the FBI executed a search warrant at Mar-a-Lago, Donald Trump tried to push back with a lengthy defense. It’s amazing just how unpersuasive it was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msnbc.com



Sounds like even a convicted felon is still eligible to run so short of him being in jail there won't be anything stopping him. Seems unlikely he would win again but as we've seen he can inflict serious damage if he wants to.


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## NT1440

This is going to be incredibly dumb if this is what prevents him from running. As president he could have declassified anything he wanted, but failed to do so.

This also reeks of Al Capone tax charges. Meaning, there’s a lot more things that could and should have been charged with (years before even thinking of running for office), but if documents are what does him in…

Also, on the flip side, his base is going to be extremely riled up if this new situation has legs. This could backfire spectacularly…


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## Eric

NT1440 said:


> This is going to be incredibly dumb if this is what prevents him from running. As president he could have declassified anything he wanted, but failed to do so.
> 
> This also reeks of Al Capone tax charges. Meaning, there’s a lot more things that could and should have been charged with (years before even thinking of running for office), but if documents are what does him in…
> 
> *Also, on the flip side, his base is going to be extremely riled up if this new situation has legs. This could backfire spectacularly…*



So what should they do if he broke the law then?


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## NT1440

Eric said:


> Sounds like even a convicted felon is still eligible to run so short of him being in jail there won't be anything stopping him. Seems unlikely he would win again but as we've seen he can inflict serious damage if he wants to.



This specific scenario with classified documents actually explicitly prevents a person from holding office in the US, it’s section B of a specific statute (I’d have to find it again).

I’d caution Democrats from convincing themselves that Trump’s support (and therefore chances of winning election) has waned. Trump is merely the vessel people put their discontent into. Trump or not that anger and “fuck you” mentality is growing stronger every day on the right. If it were to be paired with a *competent* fascist like a Tom Cotton, Trumps presidency would look like “the good old days”.


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## GermanSuplex

I’m sure the justice department and judges thought of the ramifications before the search.

And I doubt they’re doing this over random info. They’ve been after this material for over a year, and decided the games were over. Part of me thinks he may have been slow to turn stuff over because he knew it was illegal for him to have taken and held onto it.

And there are laws that if broken and convicted of bar you from holding elected office. I can see that happening, though it would infuriate the base.


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## NT1440

Eric said:


> So what should they do if he broke the law then?



Trump’s entire lifetime of business has been law breaking, mob ties, and labor violations.

Idk what’s special about this other than there being a specific provision in the laws on classified documents that bars the guilty from holding office. 

So in a perfect vacuum and functional State, Trump would have been in jail in the 80’s. But we have to stop pretending that this country isn’t the Plutocracy that is clearly is. The wealthy and powerful only see a semblance of justice when they piss of other elites. 

So I honestly don’t know what comes of all this.


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## Citysnaps

The good news is (my understanding), is that any *other* documents/information/etc FBI agents find in plain sight during their seizure of documents relating to the search warrant, that support *other* criminality, are fair game for seizure and could lead to or support other criminal investigations.


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## NT1440

citypix said:


> The good news is (my understanding), is that any *other* documents/information/etc FBI agents find in plain sight during their seizure of documents relating to the search warrant, that support *other* criminality, are fair game for seizure and could lead to or support other criminal investigations.



True, I’d love to know the actual logistics of what it looks like in ML.

If anything comes of this, expect some lowly paid administrator or intern to take the fall for “mishandling” boxes in an archive room or something. This won’t be a case of “Trump had a box of papers labeled “classified”” next to his night stand.


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## GermanSuplex

citypix said:


> The good news is (my understanding), is that any *other* documents/information/etc FBI agents find in plain sight during their seizure of documents relating to the search warrant, that support *other* criminality, are fair game for seizure and could lead to or support other criminal investigations.




Yep, like raiding a house for drugs and finding stolen guns or a dead body.

I doubt the FBI would have risked this for some simple documents that were not of great importance.

The fact Trump and his kids are whining about having “cooperated” leads me to believe they knew they were in the wrong and trying to selectively hand back over documents.


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## fooferdoggie

Nycturne said:


> At this point, we see members of the GOP already looking to escalate. McCarthy and some far out there types in Florida in particular. There’s going to be blowback no matter what. These are unprecedented times.
> 
> Honestly it’s dammed if you do, damned if you don’t if their base keeps supporting them. Pursue an investigation of wrongdoing, you embolden them. Don’t pursue it, and you embolden them. And that’s the point: make it an impossible choice. At some point you have to just do what the law requires and let the historians sort it out later. At least if you want any hope of maintaining your system of government.



Funny they were fine when trump used the Justice department for his personal crap and his law breaking. that did not bother them at all.


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## GermanSuplex

Lie, project, deflect. It’s the only things the GQP are good at. On Fox, you hear the names Hillary Clinton and Hunter Biden as if they got away with literal murder. The rhetoric coming from them last night and today has been mind-blowing, even for them.


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## mac_in_tosh

KnowingTrump, there are several possibilities as to the nature of the documents. One is that they are evidence of specific misdeeds while he was in office. Another is that they are something he could benefit from financially. I don't think we can dismiss a third possibility - they have national security information that he was going to give to Russia.


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## GermanSuplex

mac_in_tosh said:


> KnowingTrump, there are several possibilities as to the nature of the documents. One is that they are evidence of specific misdeeds while he was in office. Another is that they are something he could benefit from financially. I don't think we can dismiss a third possibility - they have national security information that he was going to give to Russia.




One of Trump’s first acts of dereliction as president was inviting Russians into the Oval Office and giving them highly sensitive info. It’s not a stretch to wonder what he’d do with his commie buddies at his golf club.


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## Cmaier

I still don’t 100% believe this is about misappropriated classified documents. Trump world keeps yelling “we demand to see the warrant immediately! Trump should demand it and release it so we can see how corrupt the fbi is!”  But trump has the warrant.  If he won’t release it it’s because it’s damning and is about more than just documents he took with him.


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## lizkat

Back in the late winter, the House committee looking into possible violations of the Presidential Records Act had asked for a detailed list of what *already had been recovered and returned to the archivist*.

Some of that material was so sensitive that it could not even be described in an unclassified way.

The archivist therefore appended a classified list of that particular material in responding to the inquiry by the House committee.    The Washington Post had run a piece about that at the end of February (paywall stripped):

Some records taken by Trump are so sensitive they may not be described in public​
It's possible that some of that already recovered material referred to particular other material still missing, and perhaps that material had even previously been seen by one or two people in the House or Senate.

I can't imagine a scenario where a federal judge would approve this particular search warrant without all the legal requirements having been met.  I can't imagine Garland's DoJ even asking for a warrant they thought a judge could reasonably decline to issue.  But then everyone's imagination has already been stretched with respect to politics, law and justice over the past five years.

We're not likely to know anything about the warrant's contents unless there are charges brought and the warrant is cited in pretrial briefings or other court proceedings.   I also suppose but don't know that parts of a search warrant could refer to information held under court seal. 

Would not like to be Trump's lawyers right now trying to keep a lid on their guy since when he opens his mouth about his legal issues he usually complicates their work anyway.

 What an infinity of partly occluded mirrors and lenses could be involved here, including matters sensitive in other countries as well.    Of course it all feeds conspiracy theories that will be circulating among Trump cultists.  

I dislike thinking any part of the DoJ's tactics here have been rushed due to the 90-day window of forbearance on matters that could affect an upcoming election.    Of course it crosses the mind.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

In this case I think the term silent majority applies to people who want Trump to just go away.  There are plenty of people saying it out loud but I think an even bigger group who aren't saying it because they are scared or maybe they feel they are above saying it and don't want to join the public circus.  Trump needs to go away and he did this all to himself for refusing to do so on his own.

There's a good chance a lot of this could have been swept under the rug but Trump is living under the rug and ejecting anything people are trying t hide there.


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## AG_PhamD

Eric said:


> I don't see how it won't be viewed as political, even when he has his own appointees involved, I'm betting they're being really careful and legal about every step though and in the end we'll be seeing unbiased fact based evidence.
> 
> 
> In his mind he sees all of the illegal actions he's taken as justified, he's a sociopath and I have no doubt he not only had them, but bragged about it to his inner circle leading to the feds probably knowing exactly where to find them.






Nycturne said:


> At this point, we see members of the GOP already looking to escalate. McCarthy and some far out there types in Florida in particular. There’s going to be blowback no matter what. These are unprecedented times.
> 
> Honestly it’s dammed if you do, damned if you don’t if their base keeps supporting them. Pursue an investigation of wrongdoing, you embolden them. Don’t pursue it, and you embolden them. And that’s the point: make it an impossible choice. At some point you have to just do what the law requires and let the historians sort it out later. At least if you want any hope of maintaining your system of government.




I totally agree, if he’s done criminal acts then he should be prosecuted. That’s my opinion across the board.  My point is if they are going to be raiding his house, they better be sure as can be he has what they think he has, that they find them, and that he can be prosecuted. Otherwise this could turn into a disaster. 

And if Trump is in illegal possession of documents or possession of incriminating documents that were not retrieved in this raid, you can bet after this they are be gone for good at this point. 

Too many times with Trump there have been investigations, the media claims we’re on the verge of shoe being about to drop, and then nothing ends up happening- which delegitimizes future investigations among his base. And it only empowers he base’s sense of being persecuted and he’s already ramping up that talking point. 

All that said, given the divide in the Republican Party, there are probably a number of Republicans who might not be disappointed with this, despite parroting claims of unjust persecution.


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## NT1440

GermanSuplex said:


> One of Trump’s first acts of dereliction as president was inviting Russians into the Oval Office and giving them highly sensitive info. It’s not a stretch to wonder what he’d do with his commie buddies at his golf club.



Just to clarify, Russia is a capitalistic country, not communist.

As for Trump, they better make something stick. If not and he wins (which is more likely than people like to convince themselves) in 2024 (I hope he’s dropped dead by then) you’re going to see some drastic housecleaning and vendettas across the board in every government agency.


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## Eric

AG_PhamD said:


> I totally agree, if he’s done criminal acts then he should be prosecuted. That’s my opinion across the board.  *My point is if they are going to be raiding his house, they better be sure as can be he has what they think he has, that they find them, and that he can be prosecuted. Otherwise this could turn into a disaster.*
> 
> And if Trump is in illegal possession of documents or possession of incriminating documents that were not retrieved in this raid, you can bet after this they are be gone for good at this point.
> 
> Too many times with Trump there have been investigations, the media claims we’re on the verge of shoe being about to drop, and then nothing ends up happening- which delegitimizes future investigations among his base. And it only empowers he base’s sense of being persecuted and he’s already ramping up that talking point.
> 
> All that said, given the divide in the Republican Party, there are probably a number of Republicans who might not be disappointed with this, despite parroting claims of unjust persecution.



I think they have way too much to risk by going in unsure of what they're going to find.


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## NT1440

Eric said:


> I think they have way too much to risk by going in unsure of what they're going to find.



As the saying goes “if you take aim at the King, you better not miss”. If this becomes a big fat nothing burger there is going to be some serious consequences should that idiot regain the “throne”.


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## Runs For Fun

Nycturne said:


> What I find interesting is that while the committee has been focusing on Jan 6th, the DOJ has been focusing on possible criminal handling of government material.
> 
> This feels to me a little like getting Al Capone for tax evasion. This is something simple, concrete, and easy to describe to potential jury. Did he improperly handle government material and records, or not? It’s not about trying to pin his lackey’s behaviors to him, it’s not about if a call represented quid pro quo. It’s a simpler question with a more clear yes/no answer.
> 
> One that some people seem to claim may prevent him from being able to hold public office again if convicted.
> 
> If accurate, I could totally see this as a smart play by the DOJ.






lizkat said:


> Yeah it's about a provision in 18 USC 2071
> 
> View attachment 16544



Yeah this is interesting. It would be like catching someone who committed the perfect crime because they were speeding.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> One of Trump’s first acts of dereliction as president was inviting Russians into the Oval Office and giving them highly sensitive info. It’s not a stretch to wonder what he’d do with his commie buddies at his golf club.




I'm still shocked when Jared Kushner, Mike Flynn, and Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak, met at trump Tower to discuss setting up a secret communications channel with Moscow, *using Russian communications and cryptographic equipment* *at a Russian diplomatic facility in the US*.  This was in December, after the 2016 election and before trump's inauguration in 2017.

The pitch was made to Kislyak so trump could have secret communications with Moscow that would be immune from interception by US intelligence agencies.   Seriously.

What's rather comedic, was US intelligence intercepted Kislyak's communication with Moscow detailing the meeting and Kushner's/Flynn's proposal. That's how we found out about it.  Go NSA!

That told me (almost) everything I needed to know about trump.


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556777805798686720/


----------



## lizkat

citypix said:


> I'm still shocked when Jared Kushner, Mike Flynn, and Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak, met at trump Tower to discuss setting up a secret communications channel with Moscow, *using Russian communications and cryptographic equipment* *at a Russian diplomatic facility in the US*.  This was in December, after the 2016 election and before trump's inauguration in 2017.
> 
> The pitch was made to Kislyak so trump could have secret communications with Moscow that would be immune from interception by US intelligence agencies.   Seriously.
> 
> What's rather comedic, was US intelligence intercepted Kislyak's communication with Moscow detailing the meeting and Kushner's/Flynn's proposal. That's how we found out about it.  Go NSA!
> 
> That told me (almost) everything I needed to know about trump.




See this is what I find so confusing about the response of Republicans to any of Trump's off the norm or actually extralegal  behavior.    I've asked so often it's like a mantra:   "What if it was a Democrat pulling these stunts?"

The Republicans went bananas over Clinton;  she sat through so many hearings answering all their questions about Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi, and then there was all the lock her up stuff on her email setup which was not much different to setups run by other state dept honchos including Powell..    and yet with Trump, even the most egregious disdain for our rule of law is dismissed by Republicans and they actually point fingers back at Democrats for "persecuting" the nominal head of the GOP, a guy who has contempt for all of them and has expressed it freely whenever it suits him.

It's like Trump somehow cast a spell on the GOP.   At first they thought they could use him because his charisma had energized a new base for them.   People warned them about the dangers of thinking to ride a tiger since there is inevitably danger in attempting later to dismount...    but they didn't listen and actually managed to get a lot of their agenda passed.  In fact they don't even seem to have an agenda now except to remain in power.   And yet they KNOW he's a ticking time bomb for them and for the country.  And yet they imagine they can ride the tiger through 2022 and beyond.    Un-F-believable yet it's happening.

The only thing some of these clowns mouthing off now on the House side against the alleged injustices and political witch-hunting aspects of the FBI raid is that *the senior GOP leadership in the US Senate has not said one damn thing.*    Only the guy charged with raising funds for the Senate races has complained about the raid.   That should tell idiot Kevin McCarthy something...


----------



## mac_in_tosh

citypix said:


> I'm still shocked when Jared Kushner, Mike Flynn, and Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak, met at trump Tower to discuss setting up a secret communications channel with Moscow, *using Russian communications and cryptographic equipment* *at a Russian diplomatic facility in the US*.



The Trump - Russia connection is obvious but he's somehow managed to get away with it. His campaign exchanged polling data with Russia. Trump  said he believed Putin over our own national security agencies about election interference. When Putin invaded Ukraine, Trump said he was "smart." And most recently Trump parroted Russian talking points about the U.S. athlete who was convicted in Russia. Either Putin has something on Trump (the infamous pee tapes) or Trump made a deal with Putin to get Russian help in the election or for a business deal in Russia. And all along he hugs the U.S. flag and talks about making America great again and his basket of deplorables believe him.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Man Twitter is on 
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556805777884577793/


----------



## lizkat

Runs For Fun said:


> Man Twitter is on
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556805777884577793/




Yeah I this one cracked me right up too.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556798749040529408/


----------



## AG_PhamD

NT1440 said:


> As the saying goes “if you take aim at the King, you better not miss”. If this becomes a big fat nothing burger there is going to be some serious consequences should that idiot regain the “throne”.




Exactly. 

I think Trump was correct with his shooting people on 5th Ave quote. Whatever crimes he commits his supporters won’t care.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556777805798686720/



is that like look for the writing on the wall in catsup?


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> See this is what I find so confusing about the response of Republicans to any of Trump's off the norm or actually extralegal  behavior.    I've asked so often it's like a mantra:   "What if it was a Democrat pulling these stunts?"
> 
> The Republicans went bananas over Clinton;  she sat through so many hearings answering all their questions about Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi, and then there was all the lock her up stuff on her email setup which was not much different to setups run by other state dept honchos including Powell..    and yet with Trump, even the most egregious disdain for our rule of law is dismissed by Republicans and they actually point fingers back at Democrats for "persecuting" the nominal head of the GOP, a guy who has contempt for all of them and has expressed it freely whenever it suits him.
> 
> It's like Trump somehow cast a spell on the GOP.   At first they thought they could use him because his charisma had energized a new base for them.   People warned them about the dangers of thinking to ride a tiger since there is inevitably danger in attempting later to dismount...    but they didn't listen and actually managed to get a lot of their agenda passed.  In fact they don't even seem to have an agenda now except to remain in power.   And yet they KNOW he's a ticking time bomb for them and for the country.  And yet they imagine they can ride the tiger through 2022 and beyond.    Un-F-believable yet it's happening.
> 
> The only thing some of these clowns mouthing off now on the House side against the alleged injustices and political witch-hunting aspects of the FBI raid is that *the senior GOP leadership in the US Senate has not said one damn thing.*    Only the guy charged with raising funds for the Senate races has complained about the raid.   That should tell idiot Kevin McCarthy something...




Yeah, and McCarthy is now threatening to investigate the Justice Dept if the GOP wins the House.  I'm embarrassed he "represents" the state I live in.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

lizkat said:


> It's like Trump somehow cast a spell on the GOP.



One thing he's done is expose their hypocrisy. The party of family values is ok with a guy who cheated on his three wives and paid hush money to a porn star. The party of law and order is ok with a guy who incited a violent attack on the Capitol and enjoyed watching it on t.v. The party of national defense is ok with a guy who said he believed Putin about election interference over our own security agencies and who dodged the draft using a phoney letter from a doctor who was a tenant of his father. But Hillary's emails ...


----------



## lizkat

AG_PhamD said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I think Trump was correct with his shooting people on 5th Ave quote. Whatever crimes he commits his supporters won’t care.




This is still the USA though and not some reality TV show.    Trump's supporters don't just get the last word because they're loud.    We are still a country with a rule of law and people courageous enough to bring suit to get it enforced.


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> This is still the USA though and not some reality TV show.    Trump's supporters don't just get the last word because they're loud.    We are still a country with a rule of law and people courageous enough to bring suit to get it enforced.



hopefully no matter what the hard right as tried to change that.


----------



## Eric

citypix said:


> Yeah, and McCarthy is now threatening to investigate the Justice Dept if the GOP wins the House.  I'm embarrassed he "represents" the state I live in.



Adam Parkhomenko FTW

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556809933265453061/


----------



## Eric

And now this...









						Trump real estate appraiser hands over thousands of documents to N.Y. AG in civil probe
					

Cushman & Wakefield, which was held in contempt for snubbing the attorney general's subpoena, has now turned over nearly 36,000 documents, the AG's office said.




					www.cnbc.com
				




https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556708838111432704/


----------



## Runs For Fun

Uh oh








						Trump world takes stock of which Republicans back him against the FBI — POLITICO
					

Two people close to the former president said they believe he will expedite his decision to run for the White House again.




					apple.news


----------



## Eric

Runs For Fun said:


> Uh oh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump world takes stock of which Republicans back him against the FBI — POLITICO
> 
> 
> Two people close to the former president said they believe he will expedite his decision to run for the White House again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



Republicans vs Republicans can only be good for Democrats.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> And now this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump real estate appraiser hands over thousands of documents to N.Y. AG in civil probe
> 
> 
> Cushman & Wakefield, which was held in contempt for snubbing the attorney general's subpoena, has now turned over nearly 36,000 documents, the AG's office said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com



man the companies that are willing to break the law for trump its crazy. I mean it never seems to work either.


----------



## Eric

Oh FFS

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556793230028587009/


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> Republicans vs Republicans can only be good for Democrats.



the problem with that is then he cant get all those free donations or he will be breaking campaign financial rules.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> Oh FFS
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556793230028587009/



she never disappoints in the stupid.


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> Oh FFS
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556793230028587009/




Yeah.  Behold the party of law'n'order.


----------



## MEJHarrison

AG_PhamD said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I think Trump was correct with his shooting people on 5th Ave quote. Whatever crimes he commits his supporters won’t care.




I'm sure some wouldn't care.  Absolutely.

I think the bigger problem is the rest are straight up ignorant of the facts.  Remember, one of the first things he did was discredit the news media.  When I go to my sister's, they have OAN playing non-stop.  If the man were to actually shoot people on 5th Ave, lots of people like my sister probably wouldn't even hear about it.  Or it would be twisted into a witch-hunt against him.  To hear actual facts, they would need to hear from a news source that is actually interested in airing news, not just a cheerleading squad.  But they've been told those media outlets are just full of liars and they believe that, so they ignore them.  They have no exposure to actual news and what does seep in is just "lies by the liberal media."

If my sister is aware of the FBI raid today, I'd bet a good sum of money that the _*only*_ thing she's heard is that it's a political witch-hunt by the evil dems.  And that probably makes perfect sense to her because I seriously doubt she's up to speed on all the stuff the January 6th committee has been uncovering and all his other wrong doings.  She steers well clear of any source of information that might fill her in better on what's actually going on.  Because the man himself told her to steer clear of those other places.

If the ex-president wants to die having done at least one thing during his life that turned out to be a success, he should write a book on how to con people.


----------



## Eric

The level headed and objective mind of a Trump supporter.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556835968279355392/


----------



## Edd

Eric said:


> The level headed and objective mind of a Trump supporter.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556835968279355392/



On Twitter there’s a lot of conflating of Democrats and the FBI.


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> The level headed and objective mind of a Trump supporter.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556835968279355392/




So absurd.   We in the general public have no clue what the FBI got a warrant to look for.  Yet all this piling on anyway by so many Republican officials and Trump followers.

This man,  now proclaiming that "if you are not for Donald Trump you are my enemy"...   does he care if the object of the warranted search is something that has already or could in future compromise the security of the USA or one of its allies? 

Ironic if a man calling for loyalty to an American politician is asking for loyalty to a guy whose own allegiances turn out not to prioritize the United States of America, even though he managed to become our 45th president.

It's one thing --and a very fine one at that-- to become an activist in affairs of the nation.   But to put hyperpartisan blinders on when an admired politician comes into conflict with the law,  well that seems not so fine to me.    We do have a rule of law and this search warrant appears to have been acquired in legitimate fashion.

The search has been conducted already,  so the investigation continues however it will, and let those bewitched by or beholden to Donald Trump complain or sue later if it turns out that "there was no there there" upon conclusion of the House investigation.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Republicans are complaining that the raid was "unprecedented." Well, Trump's transgressions were unprecedented. Did a U.S. president ever incite a mob to attack the Capitol in order to block the peaceful transition of power? They are putting party over country in a way that is frankly hard to understand. Ok, he's your guy but at some point you'd think they would look out for the good of the country, for everyone's sake. An attempted coup apparently dosen't do it.


----------



## NT1440

mac_in_tosh said:


> Republicans are complaining that the raid was "unprecedented." Well, Trump's transgressions were unprecedented. Did a U.S. president ever incite a mob to attack the Capitol in order to block the peaceful transition of power? They are putting party over country in a way that is frankly hard to understand. Ok, he's your guy but at some point you'd think they would look out for the good of the country, for everyone's sake. An attempted coup apparently dosen't do it.



Agreed, but everyone should remember that we have already had a stolen election in this country, a judicial coup.

There are many issues we thought we could just ignore and move on from, but the fact that no one answered for the stolen election of 2000, torture, spying, etc just paved the way for the emerging fascist element to gain an actual hold over power in this country.

The refusal to hold officials to actual account (read: jail) just shows that as long as you have the connections to the right power brokers there is no Law in this country worth talking about.

America desperately needs a political revolution and a Truth & Reconciliation process with actual consequences. Until that happens we’ve got the choice of ratcheting further and further rightward or…we’ll that’s the only choice with two corporate owned parties.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> The level headed and objective mind of a Trump supporter.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556835968279355392/




It may have been a mistake, but not the way he thinks.









						Trump disqualified from holding office? Clinton-linked lawyer points to US Code after FBI raid
					

With news of the FBI raiding Mar-a-Lago, buzz quickly bubbled up Monday evening about whether former President Donald Trump could be disqualified from holding office again.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com
				




So if Trump ends up barred from holding office, that really opens the door for DeSantis which might not be great for the Dems.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> It may have been a mistake, but not the way he thinks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump disqualified from holding office? Clinton-linked lawyer points to US Code after FBI raid
> 
> 
> With news of the FBI raiding Mar-a-Lago, buzz quickly bubbled up Monday evening about whether former President Donald Trump could be disqualified from holding office again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if Trump ends up barred from holding office, that really opens the door for DeSantis which might not be great for the Dems.



Yeah, there are ways this can play to their advantage. I think DeSantis was going to primary anyway and this would just give him the upper hand, I also think Dems are expecting him to run.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> It may have been a mistake, but not the way he thinks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump disqualified from holding office? Clinton-linked lawyer points to US Code after FBI raid
> 
> 
> With news of the FBI raiding Mar-a-Lago, buzz quickly bubbled up Monday evening about whether former President Donald Trump could be disqualified from holding office again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if Trump ends up barred from holding office, that really opens the door for DeSantis which might not be great for the Dems.




Heh,  that door was already open.   The GOP doesn't want Trump to run again.   They're not going to mount up and buy big dollar billboards to that effect before even all the 2022 midterm primaries have concluded.


----------



## Joe

Eric said:


> The level headed and objective mind of a Trump supporter.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556835968279355392/




Most of them are like that.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> It may have been a mistake, but not the way he thinks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump disqualified from holding office? Clinton-linked lawyer points to US Code after FBI raid
> 
> 
> With news of the FBI raiding Mar-a-Lago, buzz quickly bubbled up Monday evening about whether former President Donald Trump could be disqualified from holding office again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if Trump ends up barred from holding office, that really opens the door for DeSantis which might not be great for the Dems.




I only really know DeSantis from when he pulls a DeSantis that gets national attention. I know the fear is that he is a more competent Trump, but from what I’ve heard he lacks the personality essential to getting Trump supporters fired up and the left mostly just knows him from pulling DeSantis. He’s actively creating new baggage. In a way I think he owes a great deal to Trump and Abbot for making him look not that bad or extreme. But Republican voters need to vote for somebody and I think the party has decided a candidate who isn’t hugely divisive isn’t a winning strategy.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I only really know DeSantis from when he pulls a DeSantis that gets national attention. I know the fear is that he is a more competent Trump, but from what I’ve heard he lacks the personality essential to getting Trump supporters fired up and the left mostly just knows him from pulling DeSantis. He’s actively creating new baggage. In a way I think he owes a great deal to Trump and Abbot for making him look not that bad or extreme. But Republican voters need to vote for somebody and I think the party has decided a candidate who isn’t hugely divisive isn’t a winning strategy.




You mean someone who can talk like a populist but call Democrats marxists and somehow still get behind tax breaks for the wealthy when it comes to put pen to legislative programs?    How hard can it be, the GOP has been grooming these guys since the 90s from the grassroots on up.    That populist veneer only became a necessity for national candidates when Bernie Sanders popped up outta nowhere on the left in 2016!


----------



## Renzatic

AG_PhamD said:


> I totally agree, if he’s done criminal acts then he should be prosecuted. That’s my opinion across the board. My point is if they are going to be raiding his house, they better be sure as can be he has what they think he has, that they find them, and that he can be prosecuted. Otherwise this could turn into a disaster.




I imagine that Garland, Wray, the DOJ, and the FBI are well aware of the stakes and consequences of their actions here. Given what they're going up against, expect every risk they take to be calculated to the nth degree.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Cmaier said:


> I still don’t 100% believe this is about misappropriated classified documents. Trump world keeps yelling “we demand to see the warrant immediately! Trump should demand it and release it so we can see how corrupt the fbi is!”  But trump has the warrant.  If he won’t release it it’s because it’s damning and is about more than just documents he took with him.




As Frank Figliuzzi mentioned on MSNBC, Trump would have been given a copy of that, as well as a receipt of items seized. So Trump HIMSELF has the ability to clear at least some of this up. There would probably be redactions and things of that nature depending the contents/sensitivity of the documents they were looking for, but he can easily clear a lot up. My guess is he won't, because he doesn't want to incriminate himself, and the mystery is a bigger sell to his base.



Eric said:


> The level headed and objective mind of a Trump supporter.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556835968279355392/




This guy is a liar. He absolutely didn't come to that sudden realization in the four hours before that tweet. They've crossed the threshold from fervent sycophants into full-on cultists quite a long time ago. As a Christian Conservative, pledging your allegiance to Trump I guess is the "christ-like" thing to do these days.

I'm sure they'll go to war just because FBI agents took some documents from his golf club, but break in someone's door with a faulty warrant and shoot an innocent person to death? "Eh, she was asking for it, she hung around bad people!"

Seriously, f**** these cultists. At least now they can have something real happening to be upset about instead of non-existent voter fraud.


----------



## lizkat

Renzatic said:


> I imagine that Garland, Wray, the DOJ, and the FBI are well aware of the stakes and consequences of their actions here. Given what they're going up against, expect every risk they take to be calculated to the nth degree.



Yeah.  Their immediately past issue though was the 90-day forbearance window coming up before a general election.  It's hard not to view the timing of this raid in that context.  The norm and expectation is that they would not announce prosecutions during that window if that might affect outcome of an election.

It's (remotely? certainly?) possible that sealed indictment(s) have already been issued as a result of the raid.  We might not know that for some time now though.  And neither Trump nor his lawyers nor anyone else outside the prosecutorial team and grand jury would have been notified, barring a leak.  

An interesting question is whether the prospect of an indictment could affect Trump's decision on whether and when to announce a run for President in 2024,  and whether Trump's lawyers believe he already may have been indicted as a result of the raid yesterday.

An indictment doesn't preclude Trump from trying to run again for public office --certainly not when his legal beagles are likely to pursue the idea in court that the Constitution defines the ONLY qualifications needed to run for that high office--  but his lawyers and other advisors may try to persuade him to delay.  Steve Bannon and his his ilk of course have been hollering for him to go ahead and throw his hat in the ring...


----------



## GermanSuplex

mac_in_tosh said:


> Republicans are complaining that the raid was "unprecedented." Well, Trump's transgressions were unprecedented. Did a U.S. president ever incite a mob to attack the Capitol in order to block the peaceful transition of power? They are putting party over country in a way that is frankly hard to understand. Ok, he's your guy but at some point you'd think they would look out for the good of the country, for everyone's sake. An attempted coup apparently dosen't do it.




Right? "I was never arrested until I robbed the bank! Ever!"

Ok?

Republicans are now literally just arguing Trump is above the law. I haven't even heard anyone argue for his innocence, just that they shouldn't have went to his home and taken stuff. What were they supposed to do? They've been trying to get what they're after for fifteen months, and clearly it wasn't working (or they've been tipped off to additional crimes). Who really knows, but the FBI treated him far better than they did Breona Taylor and other victims who were injured or scared to death by faulty no-knock warrants from police departments. The FBI called the Secret Service (whom one Fox analyst argued should have "protected" Trump, whatever that means...) and warned them that they were coming by, and did so in plain clothes so as not to create a scene.

This is all typical GOP gaslighting and riling up the base. It has no factual merit. Trump was treated the same as anyone else. Chris Wray is the man Trump appointed. Garland is a well-respected and qualified man - even the GOP lavished praise on him when they refused to hold a vote for him as a Supreme Court justice. It was a power-grab, not an anti-Garland maneuver. The justice department is made up of all sorts of men and women of different political ideologies. I'm sure there are people who are staunch Trumpers in the JD, they're just not cultists and are capable of separating their political opinions from their actual job. This whole "deep state" garbage or whining that its "the democrats" is just a way to whip up the anger of their base and turn out the vote. That's all republicans care about. Trump is popular with their base, so they follow the lead.

When you stand on the sidelines, its very clear that Fox News, the GOP and all their enablers think - seemingly correctly - their base are idiots who believe anything they are told. The GOP are still riding this thing out until it crashes down around them, but when the fire gets too hot to handle, they'll be the first to do an about-face and pretend they were always against Trump and what he stands for.

Frankly, while I'm tired of the Trump shit-show, it looks like its here to stay for some time, so at this point I really don't care if he runs again. He lost the popular vote twice and he turns out voters against him as much as he does his own, so I find it hard to believe he could win another race, and if we thought things got ugly when a chunk of republicans who actually lost got mad and were convinced they won, things will get REALLY ugly if Trump loses - again - and they try to shove him into office anyways by committing the same fraud and deceit they lie about. Simply put, these people are a loud minority, not a silent majority.


----------



## Eric

The meltdown is real... It will gin up their base but it looks bad to the rest of the country.









						The Mar-a-Lago Raid Has Led to a Full-On GOP Meltdown
					

Republican officials are spiraling, warning of a coming DOJ-led police state.




					slate.com


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> The meltdown is real... It will gin up their base but it looks bad to the rest of the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Mar-a-Lago Raid Has Led to a Full-On GOP Meltdown
> 
> 
> Republican officials are spiraling, warning of a coming DOJ-led police state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> slate.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16556



This is the House for ya.   Hotheads all the way.   It's why we have a Senate.

(and those guys atop the GOP in that chamber aren't saying anything right now)


----------



## Eric

Wait, what?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> View attachment 16558




Ah, but there’s the Trump clause… “Except for me”. The electoral college is a disaster for democracy - unless he wins, then it’s brilliant. Only guilty people plead the fifth… unless I do it. Etc.



lizkat said:


> Yeah.  Their immediately past issue though was the 90-day forbearance window coming up before a general election.  It's hard not to view the timing of this raid in that context.  The norm and expectation is that they would not announce prosecutions during that window if that might affect outcome of an election.
> 
> It's (remotely? certainly?) possible that sealed indictment(s) have already been issued as a result of the raid.  We might not know that for some time now though.  And neither Trump nor his lawyers nor anyone else outside the prosecutorial team and grand jury would have been notified, barring a leak.
> 
> An interesting question is whether the prospect of an indictment could affect Trump's decision on whether and when to announce a run for President in 2024,  and whether Trump's lawyers believe he already may have been indicted as a result of the raid yesterday.
> 
> An indictment doesn't preclude Trump from trying to run again for public office --certainly not when his legal beagles are likely to pursue the idea in court that the Constitution defines the ONLY qualifications needed to run for that high office--  but his lawyers and other advisors may try to persuade him to delay.  Steve Bannon and his his ilk of course have been hollering for him to go ahead and throw his hat in the ring...




This was discussed earlier today on MSNBC, and of course it would be naive to think that timing played no role in this. But that's not unique to the DoJ/FBI or any local police department or investigation of any sort.

And I fully expect Trump to announce he is running any day now.


----------



## lizkat

Meanwhile it's hard to tell whether multiple House investigations are converging in recent DoJ activities.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557131745539117057/

Edit:  and ya gotta love this reply...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557133936345727019/


----------



## Renzatic

lizkat said:


> It's (remotely? certainly?) possible that sealed indictment(s) have already been issued as a result of the raid. We might not know that for some time now though. And neither Trump nor his lawyers nor anyone else outside the prosecutorial team and grand jury would have been notified, barring a leak.




The simple fact is that we don't know what any of this is about. We don't even know if this could lead to criminal charges once everything is said and done.

The only thing we can say right now is that it looks to be spurred on by the National Archive, and that the FBI conducting a raid of this size for such seems a little extreme. The whole thing is just weird and odd.


----------



## Eric

lizkat said:


> Meanwhile it's hard to tell whether multiple House investigations are converging in recent DoJ activities.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557131745539117057/
> 
> Edit:  and ya gotta love this reply...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557133936345727019/



It's all getting very real for them now I think.


----------



## lizkat

Renzatic said:


> The simple fact is that we don't know what any of this is about. We don't even know if this could lead to criminal charges once everything is said and done.
> 
> The only thing we can say right now is that it looks to be spurred on by the National Archive, and that the FBI conducting a raid of this size for such seems a little extreme. The whole thing is just weird and odd.




Well It's safe enough to say that given past backlash over Comey's time as FBI director, that Chris Wray is not likely to go down some "maybe-over-here" rabbit hole when about to run into the forbearance window. 

There's some reason for the urgency, the timing of the effort and the no-leak aspect of it.    We're not talking about some torn-up copy of a draft memo on possible withdrawal from some treaty or whatever. 

I mean that the national records archivist could not even lawfully DESCRIBE some of the documents that Trump had removed which were subsequently retrieved.   So what do we imagine Trump managed to not return?  Or why would he keep it, conceal it, not just trash it?  How can he imagine no one would figure out what it was anyway, maybe even have viewed it, known it should not have been taken away.   Does he realize he can't afford to destroy it?  What's even the point ot trying to imagine. We know nothing of some of the information that's classified in the USA and other countries.   Not even the shape of it, like the proverbial committee of blind men describing the elephant.

There's only the point that it's not some who-cares thing.   Senior pols on the House committee and the head of the DoJ and FBI have put their careers on the line deciding to go for and exercise this search warrant at this time.   So they're not looking for the algorithm that the Wordle guy used to pick his infernal base of valid words.

So typical of us Americans (and netizens everywhere now).  I include myself, of course.   Everything must be dissected in entirety,  immediately,  lest some opportunity for accusation or blaming or outrage and conspiracy mongering be forever consigned to backwash in the firehosing of the planet by social media.

And it's fun, too.   Unless you're the target of investigations getting closer to rolling up the bad guys.


----------



## lizkat

Interesting to think about this tweeted excerpt from Carl Sagan's writings over 25 years ago, as the caterwauling ramps up to jet-takeoff decibel levels from Trump's followers and all those Republican pols still trying to coast on his Pied Piper appeal to people made willfully ignorant by Fox and other far right media.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556957427295260673/


----------



## Herdfan

Andrew Yang has a different take on this:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556987104219090945/


And even Andrew Cuomo wants more answers:









						Andrew Cuomo joins Republicans’ call for answers in FBI raid of Trump home
					

Former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday joined Republicans demanding FBI Director Christopher Wray and Attorney General Merrick Garland explain why federal agents raided former President Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort.




					www.washingtontimes.com


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Andrew Yang has a different take on this:
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556987104219090945/
> 
> 
> And even Andrew Cuomo wants more answers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew Cuomo joins Republicans’ call for answers in FBI raid of Trump home
> 
> 
> Former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday joined Republicans demanding FBI Director Christopher Wray and Attorney General Merrick Garland explain why federal agents raided former President Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtontimes.com





Well F them.  Explanations will be forthcoming or prove unnecessary in the end.

  Let all the armchair quarterbacks keep their damn shirts on. 

At least during Watergate there were no social media platforms larger than the pub round the corner,  and officla news updates occurred only a few times per day.

I mean this is all fascinating but it can make observers feel like they have an active part to play in the investigations taking place.   Our part to play was when we elected a President with power to appoint an FBI director and and Attorney General and the Senators to confirm or deny those choices.   They were confirmed.  Let the DoJ do its work.  Does anyone think a judge who was coerced to sign that warrant would not have found a way by now to speak up?   No?  Then he saw cause, and permitted the warrant.


----------



## Eric

lizkat said:


> Well F them.  Explanations will be forthcoming or prove unnecessary in the end.
> 
> Let all the armchair quarterbacks keep their damn shirts on.
> 
> At least during Watergate there were no social media platforms larger than the pub round the corner,  and officla news updates occurred only a few times per day.
> 
> I mean this is all fascinating but it can make observers feel like they have an active part to play in the investigations taking place.   Our part to play was when we elected a President with power to appoint an FBI director and and Attorney General and the Senators to confirm or deny those choices.   They were confirmed.  Let the DoJ do its work.  Does anyone think a judge who was coerced to sign that warrant would not have found a way by now to speak up?   No?  Then he saw cause, and permitted the warrant.



Yeah, his supporters will never see it any other way and if you have to cite Yang and Cuomo as the actual opposition then it points to the problem they have. 

So far this all appears above board in every way, all the hoops they had to go through to legally obtain the search warrant is playing on all of the major news sources. Who knew it was that involved? I don't see how anyone thinks they would do this on a fishing whim, they have clear and justified reasons.

It's also nice to see this taking place without the sitting president's involvement, he had no idea it was even taking place. They are the DOJ for the people, not the president, and I believe to the general non-Trump fanatic public they come across as credible.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Why are people asking the FBI/DoJ to change how they operate just because this guy was the president? He's not the president anymore. If he was anyone else, would the FBI be acting differently? They issue a subpoena - where you willfully turn something over to authorities - or they get a warrant. How many people get courtesy calls from the police or law enforcement telling them they'll be at your house in fifteen minutes to execute a search warrant? "Hey, just a quick heads up, we're on our way over. We've got a warrant for cocaine and stolen guns, so just hang tight and we'll be there in fifteen minutes."

This fat tub of lard is being the treated the exact same way he's demanded others who have done far less than him - in some cases nothing at all - be treated.

These people are pissed off whether Trump's home is searched or they lose an election. They're never happy unless Trump is on Twitter claiming victory for everything. Better to hold him accountable for whatever he's done than nothing.

And we don't even know if this will lead to charges. Could have been a drastic effort to get back documents of great importance and if they get them, that could be it. Who knows. Knowing Trump and his belief he is truly above the law and nothing applies to him, I'm sure he's committed numerous crimes. But this search is not really indicative of an indictment being next. But I'm pretty sure more is coming, because its hard to envision Trump holding these documents for fifteen months just for the hell of it.

And as mentioned, he could easily show what they took from him. He could clear all this up... "They came for a paper-weight model Air Force One and my big, beautiful letter from King Jong Un, and they stole my favorite putter and a letter Ivanka wrote me when she was 5! Here's the proof!"

He won't show any proof, because it will show what they were after and what they took. No, selling this to his base as "the deep state and radical dems are on a witch hunt the likes of which this country has never seen before. Send me some cash so I can defeat them!"


----------



## Runs For Fun

GermanSuplex said:


> Why are people asking the FBI/DoJ to change how they operate just because this guy was the president? He's not the president anymore. If he was anyone else, would the FBI be acting differently? They issue a subpoena - where you willfully turn something over to authorities - or they get a warrant. How many people get courtesy calls from the police or law enforcement telling them they'll be at your house in fifteen minutes to execute a search warrant? "Hey, just a quick heads up, we're on our way over. We've got a warrant for cocaine and stolen guns, so just hang tight and we'll be there in fifteen minutes."
> 
> This fat tub of lard is being the treated the exact same way he's demanded others who have done far less than him - in some cases nothing at all - be treated.
> 
> These people are pissed off whether Trump's home is searched or they lose an election. They're never happy unless Trump is on Twitter claiming victory for everything. Better to hold him accountable for whatever he's done than nothing.
> 
> And we don't even know if this will lead to charges. Could have been a drastic effort to get back documents of great importance and if they get them, that could be it. Who knows. Knowing Trump and his belief he is truly above the law and nothing applies to him, I'm sure he's committed numerous crimes. But this search is not really indicative of an indictment being next. But I'm pretty sure more is coming, because its hard to envision Trump holding these documents for fifteen months just for the hell of it.
> 
> And as mentioned, he could easily show what they took from him. He could clear all this up... "They came for a paper-weight model Air Force One and my big, beautiful letter from King Jong Un, and they stole my favorite putter and a letter Ivanka wrote me when she was 5! Here's the proof!"
> 
> He won't show any proof, because it will show what they were after and what they took. No, selling this to his base as "the deep state and radical dems are on a witch hunt the likes of which this country has never seen before. Send me some cash so I can defeat them!"



Here's a crazy concept: nobody should be above the law.


----------



## lizkat

Runs For Fun said:


> Here's a crazy concept: nobody should be above the law.




My sentiments exactly after seeing that the House Judiciary GOP account had tweeted this:

"If they can do it to a former President, imagine what they can do to you."​
My reaction was hell yeah, about time equality under the law showed up.


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557171258818691072/


----------



## Eric

Nobody's safe now!


If they can come for Trump, no one is safe. from
      WhitePeopleTwitter


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556957237297422337/


----------



## GermanSuplex

lizkat said:


> My sentiments exactly after seeing that the House Judiciary GOP account had tweeted this:
> 
> "If they can do it to a former President, imagine what they can do to you."​
> My reaction was hell yeah, about time equality under the law showed up.




This defense is mind-boggling. How many times in your life have you read about the FBI or US Marshals executing warrants or seizures? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Could be a drug dealer, a sex trafficker, a money launderer, a politician…

I’m reminded of Peter Navarro who after getting out of jail after being arrested seemed in shock that he was put in handcuffs and booked on charges. Yeah, that’s what happens when you’re arrested.

I truly don’t get how this argument appeals to anyone, unless they’re a wealthy conservative politician who broke the law to help Trump. Then I’d be worried that “it can happen to me too”. But for the rest of the 99.99% of us… that’s kind of why we obey the laws. It already can happen to us, and certainly will.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> This defense is mind-boggling. How many times in your life have you read about the FBI or US Marshals executing warrants or seizures? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Could be a drug dealer, a sex trafficker, a money launderer, a politician…
> 
> I’m reminded of Peter Navarro who after getting out of jail after being arrested seemed in shock that he was put in handcuffs and booked on charges. Yeah, that’s what happens when you’re arrested.
> 
> I truly don’t get how this argument appeals to anyone, unless they’re a wealthy conservative politician who broke the law to help Trump. Then I’d be worried that “it can happen to me too”. But for the rest of the 99.99% of us… that’s kind of why we obey the laws. It already can happen to us, and certainly will.




Yes and for a lot of us steeped in recent politics,  the whole thing about the FBI raising people's hackles may hark back only to maybe Clinton in 2016,  with Comey dropping his remarks 11 days before the election.  But right-leaning pols pitching to Trump cultists today do know that there's an anti-fed law enforcement attitude on the populist right and among some lefties as well that goes back decades.

That  includes FBI, ATF, US Marshals. National Guard, even incidents with the US military,  e.g., tragedies like the 1992 Ruby Ridge incident,  and the siege at Waco in 1993...   some of the behavior of FBI et al federal law enforcement during the Vietnam War protests and in the social unrest in the late 60s and 70s, including the '68 Dem convention in Chicago and the 1970 Kent State killings by young National Guardsmen.

So these Rs now are playing to that lingering anti-Fed "rogue" law enforcement attitude and pitching what was an unusual but warranted search as instead some kind of hoked-up and persecutory assault on personal freedom that could happen to you or me in the wee hours before dawn tomorrow. 

The talking points are obviously selling well on social media,  which has gone into overdrive on outrage. 

Thing to remember though is that some ten or twenty thousand loud social media posters are not the 325 million residents of the USA.   I should think there are a lot of people now keeping their own counsel about what to think of Trump and the DoJ and the House investigations at this point.   A lot of them are weary of the endless scandals and drama.    That could cut either way this fall in the voting booths.

The other thing to remember is that these Trump-touting pols in the GOP are deeply linked now to him by their own craven choice and cowardice, so they're naturally enough afraid if he goes down, so will they, even if only to electoral defeat and not to  criminal charges.  But some probably (and probably should) also fear the latter.  A lot of the bluster from some of those pols is meant to mask that fear.  Do the feds have something on them?  Does Trump?  How many House seats could be in jeopardy down the road when things start to unravel?  Will Senators be affected too?  They don't know, so they're freaking out.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Andrew Yang has a different take on this:
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556987104219090945/
> 
> 
> And even Andrew Cuomo wants more answers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew Cuomo joins Republicans’ call for answers in FBI raid of Trump home
> 
> 
> Former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday joined Republicans demanding FBI Director Christopher Wray and Attorney General Merrick Garland explain why federal agents raided former President Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtontimes.com



All they need to do is ask TFG. He has the subpoena and the list of documents the FBI wanted. The fact that he (TFG) is not sharing tells us all we need to know. You’d think Yang and Cuomo would both know this.


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> Andrew Yang has a different take on this:
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556987104219090945/
> 
> 
> And even Andrew Cuomo wants more answers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew Cuomo joins Republicans’ call for answers in FBI raid of Trump home
> 
> 
> Former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday joined Republicans demanding FBI Director Christopher Wray and Attorney General Merrick Garland explain why federal agents raided former President Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtontimes.com



What’s your take on it?

As has been pointed out, this wasn’t a raid - it was the execution of a lawful search warrant, the issuance of which must have required scrutiny like no other in history. If there were highly classified documents at Mar-a-Lago, even if Trump was unaware (which I doubt), was that not sufficient?

Trump is constantly playing the victim, a stance his supporters also adopt with no logic or question. Should he not be held accountable under the law for fear of enraging his “base,” which now includes much of the Republican Party? Is there a line even he can’t cross in their minds?

Does anyone believe Republicans will exercise any restraint going after Democrats if they regain power, no matter how minor or unfounded the ostensible infraction?


----------



## Eric

If Republicans could just give a straight answer when asked if the former president should be above the same laws that the rest of the American people must adhere to that would be great.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I hope in preparation for this the FBI has also been stepping up its surveillance of right-wing extremist groups.  Considering how long it's taken to get here I think it's safe to say the government has thought about a lot of potential fallout.  I'm part of the belief that whatever initial fallout this causes is far less damaging than doing nothing.


----------



## Cmaier

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/0...ony-investigation-news?smid=nytcore-ios-share
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/0...vestigation-news?referringSource=articleShare


Remember what trump said about people who invoke the fifth?

Trump declines to answer questions in New York deposition, invoking his right against self-incrimination.​Donald J. Trump declined to answer questions from the New York state attorney general’s office on Wednesday, a stunning gamble in a high-stakes legal interview that is likely to determine the course of a civil investigation into his company’s business practices.

In a statement released shortly after the questioning began on Wednesday, Mr. Trump said he would invoke his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination, explaining that he “declined to answer the questions under the rights and privileges afforded to every citizen under the United States Constitution.”

After the deposition began, two sources with knowledge of the matter confirmed that he was refusing to answer questions, citing the Fifth Amendment.
“I once asked, ‘If you’re innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?’” he said in the statement. “Now I know the answer to that question.” He said that having been targeted by lawyers, prosecutors and the news media had left him with “no choice.”
But there are other reasons Mr. Trump may have decided not to answer questions. The Manhattan district attorney’s office has been conducting a parallel criminal investigation into whether Mr. Trump fraudulently inflated valuations of his properties. Any misstep from the former president in his deposition could breathe new life into that inquiry.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/0...ony-investigation-news?smid=nytcore-ios-share
> https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/0...vestigation-news?referringSource=articleShare
> 
> 
> Remember what trump said about people who invoke the fifth?
> 
> Trump declines to answer questions in New York deposition, invoking his right against self-incrimination.​Donald J. Trump declined to answer questions from the New York state attorney general’s office on Wednesday, a stunning gamble in a high-stakes legal interview that is likely to determine the course of a civil investigation into his company’s business practices.
> 
> In a statement released shortly after the questioning began on Wednesday, Mr. Trump said he would invoke his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination, explaining that he “declined to answer the questions under the rights and privileges afforded to every citizen under the United States Constitution.”
> 
> After the deposition began, two sources with knowledge of the matter confirmed that he was refusing to answer questions, citing the Fifth Amendment.
> “I once asked, ‘If you’re innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?’” he said in the statement. “Now I know the answer to that question.” He said that having been targeted by lawyers, prosecutors and the news media had left him with “no choice.”
> But there are other reasons Mr. Trump may have decided not to answer questions. The Manhattan district attorney’s office has been conducting a parallel criminal investigation into whether Mr. Trump fraudulently inflated valuations of his properties. Any misstep from the former president in his deposition could breathe new life into that inquiry.




That's an odd choice to be made by the self-proclaimed least guilty man who ever lived.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> That's an odd choice to be made by the self-proclaimed least guilty man who ever lived.



The only choice, I'm sure his lawyers pointed out, and for once somehow made it stick!   Anyway he would have perjured himself:  this guy just says whatever comes to his mind at the moment as the most expedient and self-serving thing.   Past that he has poor control over where his mind takes him when he's agitated  -- like in situations with perceived oppponents in the media or across the table in dealmaking.   Some of the stuff he used to unload in meetings with editorial boards while he was first campaigning for the presidency was just mindboggling gobbledygook,  so much so that his interlocutors couldn't figure out how to proceed from his last response to a new question...


----------



## Cmaier

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> That's an odd choice to be made by the self-proclaimed least guilty man who ever lived.



Jury can take an adverse inference and assume he’s hiding fraud. Nice.


----------



## Cmaier

Trump sources: no plans to release the warrant.


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> Trump sources: no plans to release the warrant.




Whadda surprise.


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557141679802548227/


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> Trump sources: no plans to release the warrant.



Yet his supporters will continue to blame... Democrats, the media, Biden, literally anyone else.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Yet his supporters will continue to blame... Democrats, the media, Biden, literally anyone else.



And some raid by the way. Secret service got an hour’s notice and the fbi guys didn’t even wear the jackets with FBI printed on them.  Pretty sure the rest of us wouldn’t get those concessions.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I’m pretty confident the FBI could do it to you before this, but I’m no history surgeon.


----------



## Nycturne

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557141679802548227/




FFS.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Eric Trump has made a very revealing statement about how the DOJ operated under his father:

"Make no mistake," Eric said, "I know the White House as well as anyone. I spent a lot of time there; I know the system. This did not happen without Joe Biden's explicit approval. The White House approved of this. Mark my words … it will come out."


----------



## Cmaier

mac_in_tosh said:


> Eric Trump has made a very revealing statement about how the DOJ operated under his father:
> 
> "Make no mistake," Eric said, "I know the White House as well as anyone. I spent a lot of time there; I know the system. This did not happen without Joe Biden's explicit approval. The White House approved of this. Mark my words … it will come out."



It’s always projection with these guys.  Makes you wonder about how obsessed they are with child trafficking.


----------



## Eric

mac_in_tosh said:


> Eric Trump has made a very revealing statement about how the DOJ operated under his father:
> 
> "Make no mistake," Eric said, "I know the White House as well as anyone. I spent a lot of time there; I know the system. This did not happen without Joe Biden's explicit approval. The White House approved of this. Mark my words … it will come out."



They act independently from the WH and always have, the problem with the Trump's is they wouldn't know basic civics if it smacked them in the face. All he knows is how daddy abused the office and now believes it's standard. The entire Trump family are a bunch of dolts.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

The recent event at Mar-A-Lago was not a raid. It was a "normal tourist visit."


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

mac_in_tosh said:


> Eric Trump has made a very revealing statement about how the DOJ operated under his father:
> 
> "Make no mistake," Eric said, "I know the White House as well as anyone. I spent a lot of time there; I know the system. This did not happen without Joe Biden's explicit approval. The White House approved of this. Mark my words … it will come out."




I have similar authority over Subway Sandwiches. They don’t make me a sandwich or even consider it without me ordering them to, make no mistake.


----------



## Cmaier

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I have similar authority over Subway Sandwiches. They don’t make me a sandwich or even consider it without me ordering them to, make no mistake.



I don’t even have that kind of authority in my own house.  Sometimes I come home and everything has been rearranged and the house is a different color than when I left.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> I don’t even have that kind of authority in my own house.  Sometimes I come home and everything has been rearranged and the house is a different color than when I left.




That's the deep state division of interior design.


----------



## rdrr

Cmaier said:


> I don’t even have that kind of authority in my own house.  Sometimes I come home and everything has been rearranged and the house is a different color than when I left.



It also could be that you either went to the wrong house, or jumped to another "verse" in the multiverse.


----------



## Cmaier

rdrr said:


> It also could be that you either went to the wrong house, or jumped to another "verse" in the multiverse.



Seems likely. Probably why I can’t find my socks sometimes. And the other day there was a cat on the sofa and I don’t own a cat.


----------



## Roller

Cmaier said:


> Seems likely. Probably why I can’t find my socks sometimes. And the other day there was a cat on the sofa and I don’t own a cat.



Poor example. Nobody owns a cat.


----------



## fischersd

mac_in_tosh said:


> Eric Trump has made a very revealing statement about how the DOJ operated under his father:
> 
> "Make no mistake," Eric said, "I know the White House as well as anyone. I spent a lot of time there; I know the system. This did not happen without Joe Biden's explicit approval. The White House approved of this. Mark my words … it will come out."



Be sure to mark them in Crayon for consistency.


----------



## GermanSuplex

They're already getting ahead of the revelations by suggesting the FBI planted evidence. What a joke.


----------



## Cmaier

GermanSuplex said:


> They're already getting ahead of the revelations by suggesting the FBI planted evidence. What a joke.



I was real happy when trump suggested that yesterday, because it means there must be good stuff that they found


----------



## Eric

These people are dangerous.



> Far-Right Extremists Are Violently Threatening the Trump Search-Warrant Judge​“Let's find out if he has children... where they go to school, where they live... EVERYTHING,” one person wrote on a message board where the judge’s address was posted.












						Far-Right Extremists Are Violently Threatening the Trump Search-Warrant Judge
					

“Let's find out if he has children... where they go to school, where they live... EVERYTHING,” one person wrote on a message board where the judge’s address was posted.




					www.vice.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

Bannon, Bernard Kerik and others are insinuating that Trump could be assassinated by "these people". Who "these people" are, who the hell knows. Well, we do know. They're ginning up the violence in their own base.

Totally sickening and I really hope there are for more level-headed Americans - even if they support Trump - than there are sycophants and psychopaths who buy into this bullshit.

It sickens me to watch people who laugh when a totally innocent person of color or petty unarmed criminal is gunned down by police, abused by law enforcement, failed by the justice system - but thinks their "Rambo"-hero Donald Trump is a persecuted victim. Every day since Trump announced his presidency has been a whirlwind of unbelievable revelations. When will enough be enough? Nothing gets through. If they lose an election, they say it was stolen. If he's accused of wrongdoing, its the entire political apparatus that's at fault, not Trump. And when he's caught red-handed in wrongdoing, well... they just deflect to someone or something else - the old "two wrongs make a right" excuse (and that's granting them that what they deem as being wrong was even wrong to begin with).

And EVERYTHING feeds into their narrative. Everything is "proof" to them. If you're banned from Twitter, its proof of "big tech" persecution. If the FBI searches your home, you're a victim of the "deep state". If you lose the vote, you're a victim of "voter fraud". The only thing they will accept is victory and a win. Any failure - at all, ever, of any sort - is someone else's fault.

This is the same party that preaches personal accountability and so-called respect for "law and order".

There aren't really any Trumpers here, but I would just ask them that if you're precious dipshit Messiah is subject to prosecutorial misconduct and a faulty justice system, why the hell wouldn't you believe poor people and minorities aren't treated the same or worse?

**Edit…

This is worth a read. I wonder who this informant is? And there are tons of buffers here.. the DoJ, Trump-appointed FBI director, a federal judge, a grand jury, the National Archives… we don’t know the political ideology of many of these people… could be many Trump supporters in the mix who simply want to follow rules and laws. This is no witch hunt.









						Exclusive: An informer told the FBI what documents Trump was hiding, and where
					

The FBI's raid on Mar-a-Lago was carried out while Donald Trump was absent in the hope it would be low-profile. The plan was a "spectacular" failure.



					www.newsweek.com


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> And EVERYTHING feeds into their narrative. Everything is "proof" to them. If you're banned from Twitter, its proof of "big tech" persecution. If the FBI searches your home, you're a victim of the "deep state". If you lose the vote, you're a victim of "voter fraud". The only thing they will accept is victory and a win. Any failure - at all, ever, of any sort - is someone else's fault.
> 
> This is the same party that preaches personal accountability and so-called respect for "law and order".




The Trump fanatics are just flailing though.  It's like they've got bit parts in a reality TV show where there's no real arc to the plot, it's a static level of bullsh^t with occasional over the top moments and all meant to pass the time from now to dinner or another exciting go-nowhere the next day.

I mean what do they want?  Seems like all they want is another thing to enrage them, an excuse to act out,  vent new threats and wreak havoc in other people's lives.    They await a next instruction to go nuts again.

Also seems like Trump and the Republican Party "leadership" step up to provide that at will. 

The way in which they project their own faults onto their political opponents and claim that their own rights are being assaulted would be hilarious if it didn't make for such a tinderbox on social media (and from there out into the dark net and from there to god knows where).

Meanwhile what about the rights and personal freedom of the Americans they are threatening?  

Bunch of spoiled brats and vicious malingerers operating in a world where facts and the rights of others don't matter, only the ability to bully and threaten when not getting their own way... or the way pointed out to them as "what's next?" by authoritarian influencers and admirers (or users) of Donald Trump.

We need a lot more mental health care made available in the USA.   Start in K-4 because what's wrong has most recently got a leg up right from all those cradles parked in front of Fox News on a TV set.


----------



## Runs For Fun




----------



## AG_PhamD

lizkat said:


> This is still the USA though and not some reality TV show.    Trump's supporters don't just get the last word because they're loud.    We are still a country with a rule of law and people courageous enough to bring suit to get it enforced.




If only Trump played by the rules of his own reality TV show. When “you’re fired’, you’re fired. The only difference is rather than walking out onto 5th Ave with his suitcase and getting into a taxi, he gets a flight on Marine One from the White House lawn <insert The Apprentice theme music + roll the credits>


----------



## GermanSuplex

Here’s something to think about…

Trump-world is big. It’s not just Trump and his kids and a few dirt bags like Roger Stone, Rudy Colludy, etc.

It’s Fox News personalities who had direct contact with Trump’s Chief of Staff and others - even Trump himself. It’s tons of congress sleaze like Gym Jordan, Matt Gaetz, Ron Johnson, MTG, Lindsey Graham, Ted Cruz, Scott Perry.. I’m probably forgetting a few dozen.

It’s a big gang. They aren’t sitting around talking policy, or how to stop a democrat bill or - GASP - how to pass a bill of their own to benefit their constituents or America. It’s trying to pressure officials, come up with “alternate” slates of electors (there’s no such thing, which is why they made the whole thing up), trying to find MAGA-fan paper shufflers in the DoJ (no offense to the rank and file of the DoJ) who will do Trump’s bidding, and elevating them to high positions they aren’t qualified for (Jeff Clark).

There were so many people involved in the plot to overthrow the election, to help Trump at all costs, and who abdicated their oaths in service to one guy. And the people on Fox News have their eyes and ears on that pulse. It’s a big club. And so when they see Trump has documents taken, when they see three people close to Trump getting their phones seized… it starts to make sense as to why they are freaking out so much.

There’s probably a lot of people who will be implicated. Texts, encrypted messaging apps, emails… I expect a lot to be found out.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> There’s probably a lot of people who will be implicated. Texts, encrypted messaging apps, emails… I expect a lot to be found out.




...  and let's not forget the state legislators who have now passed bills to make it easier to refuse to certify the results of an election if they don't like the outcome.  Ugh.  November could get ugly, or it's possible the voters will make it clear enough they're not having it.  Get real and toss all the clowns out of Congress.


----------



## AG_PhamD

Renzatic said:


> I imagine that Garland, Wray, the DOJ, and the FBI are well aware of the stakes and consequences of their actions here. Given what they're going up against, expect every risk they take to be calculated to the nth degree.




I would hope so and assume that to be the case- turning on a former and potential future President obvious carries massive implications. If you are flip on Fox News they are going nuts with the Trump persecution narrative and is emboldening Trump and his supporters. 

Given the let’s say less than stellar relationship between Trump and the Feds- dossier, Russiagate, falsifying FISA warrants, Hunter Biden laptop (laptop specifically I think is largely blown out of proportion at this point in relation to Joe), etc I can understand where the outrage is coming from. But that’s also a reason that the Feds would cross all their T’s and dot all their I’s. But the fact of the matter is there’s a lot of riled up Trump Supporters based on essentially ZERO information. 

If no one’s noticed, there are essentially no known details at this point beyond Trump’s home being raided. And AFAIK we only know about that from Trump officials. They are controlling the narrative. And while the Feds aren’t saying anything, the Trump campaign/lawyers have said nothing of substance either. I would assume they have some idea of what’s really going on. 

Assuming this raid was entirely kosher, which I would expect to be the case, I do think it would behoove Garland or Wray to make some statement to explain to some degree what is happening in order to quell the excitement and speculation on both sides of the isle.


----------



## Runs For Fun

AG_PhamD said:


> I would hope so and assume that to be the case- turning on a former and potential future President obvious carries massive implications.



I'm almost certain this was scrutinized from every angle. This was such a high risk move I don't think they would have done it unless they had very, very, very solid and credible information. The fallout that would occur if nothing came out of this would be so massive and a huge blow to trying to prosecute Trump on either classified documents or January 6th.


----------



## Runs For Fun

JFC these people are crazy








						Jan. 6 defendants fan the flames after Trump's Mar-a-Lago raid: 'This is war, this is absolute war'
					

At least two Capitol riot defendants who are still awaiting sentencing likened the FBI search on Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort to the beginnings of war.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## lizkat

Runs For Fun said:


> I'm almost certain this was scrutinized from every angle. This was such a high risk move I don't think they would have done it unless they had very, very, very solid and credible information. The fallout that would occur if nothing came out of this would be so massive and a huge blow to trying to prosecute Trump on either classified documents or January 6th.




I keep seeing references in mainstream media to the idea that the search at Mar a Lago was focused on recovering some information that specifcally related to the 1/6 insurrection,

If that is true, as opposed to the earlier notion that it was more broadly just that "classified" information had been retained by Trump and was the object of the search,  no wonder the Republicans in the House have gone bonkers over the search.   The Rs who tried to help overturn the election don't know what that info is and whether they are implicated or what will happen once the information is reviewed as the DoJ investigation continues.     

But if that's what it was about, then it starts to make sense that the Republicans in the House Oversight and Reform committee are now weighing in asking for preservation of documents in the process of the search warrant acquisition,  and a detailed list of what was taken from Mar a Lago.  Suddenly those guys are much more interested in finding out what exactly what was retrieved,  than in just hammering on the FBI for doing the search.









						GOP House Oversight members press National Archives over role in FBI’s Mar-a-Lago search
					

Republicans on the House Oversight and Reform Committee sent a letter on Wednesday to the head of the National Archives and Records Administration asking about its role in the FBI’s search of former President Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate. The lawmakers — led by Rep. James Comer (R-Ky.), the ranking...




					finance.yahoo.com


----------



## Cmaier

lizkat said:


> I keep seeing references in mainstream media to the idea that the search at Mar a Lago was focused on recovering some information that specifcally related to the 1/6 insurrection,
> 
> If that is true, as opposed to the earlier notion that it was more broadly just that "classified" information had been retained by Trump and was the object of the search,  no wonder the Republicans in the House have gone bonkers over the search.   The Rs who tried to help overturn the election don't know what that info is and whether they are implicated or what will happen once the information is reviewed as the DoJ investigation continues.
> 
> But if that's what it was about, then it starts to make sense that the Republicans in the House Oversight and Reform committee are now weighing in asking for preservation of documents in the process of the search warrant acquisition,  and a detailed list of what was taken from Mar a Lago.  Suddenly those guys are much more interested in finding out what exactly what was retrieved,  than in just hammering on the FBI for doing the search.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GOP House Oversight members press National Archives over role in FBI’s Mar-a-Lago search
> 
> 
> Republicans on the House Oversight and Reform Committee sent a letter on Wednesday to the head of the National Archives and Records Administration asking about its role in the FBI’s search of former President Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate. The lawmakers — led by Rep. James Comer (R-Ky.), the ranking...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> finance.yahoo.com




Friend of mine who used to be a federal asst district atty suggested maybe trump kept “insurance” on his co-conspirators to prevent them from shafting him.


----------



## fooferdoggie

hoisted on your own petard








						Trump Made It A Felony To Mishandle Classified Documents In 2018
					

The FBI search of the former president's Florida property was focused on mishandled presidential materials, according to reports.




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## AG_PhamD

GermanSuplex said:


> Why are people asking the FBI/DoJ to change how they operate just because this guy was the president? He's not the president anymore. If he was anyone else, would the FBI be acting differently? They issue a subpoena - where you willfully turn something over to authorities - or they get a warrant. How many people get courtesy calls from the police or law enforcement telling them they'll be at your house in fifteen minutes to execute a search warrant? "Hey, just a quick heads up, we're on our way over. We've got a warrant for cocaine and stolen guns, so just hang tight and we'll be there in fifteen minutes."
> 
> This fat tub of lard is being the treated the exact same way he's demanded others who have done far less than him - in some cases nothing at all - be treated.
> 
> These people are pissed off whether Trump's home is searched or they lose an election. They're never happy unless Trump is on Twitter claiming victory for everything. Better to hold him accountable for whatever he's done than nothing.
> 
> And we don't even know if this will lead to charges. Could have been a drastic effort to get back documents of great importance and if they get them, that could be it. Who knows. Knowing Trump and his belief he is truly above the law and nothing applies to him, I'm sure he's committed numerous crimes. But this search is not really indicative of an indictment being next. But I'm pretty sure more is coming, because its hard to envision Trump holding these documents for fifteen months just for the hell of it.
> 
> And as mentioned, he could easily show what they took from him. He could clear all this up... "They came for a paper-weight model Air Force One and my big, beautiful letter from King Jong Un, and they stole my favorite putter and a letter Ivanka wrote me when she was 5! Here's the proof!"
> 
> He won't show any proof, because it will show what they were after and what they took. No, selling this to his base as "the deep state and radical dems are on a witch hunt the likes of which this country has never seen before. Send me some cash so I can defeat them!"




My question is if they did offer a subpoena and it was ignored. Wouldn’t be the first time for the Trump administration. 

Given the high profile of the case, the only thing I think they need to do differently here at this point is issue some bit of clarification onto what is going on. Otherwise we have Trump and the right wing media who doesn’t know anymore than anyone else dictating the narrative. That worked out well with the Stop the Steal narrative  (despite best efforts to the contrary).

.


----------



## lizkat

AG_PhamD said:


> My question is if they did offer a subpoena and it was ignored. Wouldn’t be the first time for the Trump administration.
> 
> Given the high profile of the case, the only thing I think they need to do differently here at this point is issue some bit of clarification onto what is going on. Otherwise we have Trump and the right wing media who doesn’t know anymore than anyone else dictating the narrative. That worked out well with the Stop the Steal narrative  (despite best efforts to the contrary).
> 
> .




Isaac Chotiner has a piece up in the New Yorker including an interview with Andrew Weissmann, a former federal prosecutor and F.B.I. general counsel who worked on the Mueller investigation.   The interview addresses some of the finer points of subpoenas vs search warrants and what a prosecutor and a judge get to decide about either or both of them when a search warrant is applied for and considered.









						What the F.B.I.’s Raid of Mar-a-Lago Could Mean for Trump
					

A former federal prosecutor and general counsel for the F.B.I. explains the process and implications of obtaining a search warrant on the home of a former President.




					www.newyorker.com
				






> *What’s your biggest takeaway from Monday’s events?*
> 
> The usual way to get documents from somebody you trust is to give them a subpoena. Almost any time that the government is trying to get documents from a corporation, they do it by issuing a subpoena, or even by informal request. With any normal civilian, you will issue a subpoena and the person will collect the documents and produce them.
> 
> You use a search warrant, and not a subpoena, when you don’t believe that the person is actually going to comply. For me, the biggest takeaway is that the Attorney General of the United States had to make the determination that it was appropriate in this situation to proceed by search warrant because they could not be confident that the former President of the United States would comply with a grand-jury subpoena.






> *When you say he wouldn’t comply, do you mean that he wouldn’t recognize the relevant legal authority? He would destroy documents? Both?*
> 
> It could be both. But one way would simply be to lie and say that you produced everything. Another would be to assert the Fifth Amendment’s “act of production” privilege. That might be the most benign. It’s a part of the Fifth Amendment that says you don’t have to produce documents in your possession if the act of producing them would be incriminating. So, for instance, there is a lot of speculation that this is about whether the former President has classified documents in his possession that he should not have. If he produced those pursuant to a subpoena, that would be incriminating himself, because it would show that he had them and knew where they were. The search warrant avoids all that. The F.B.I. just takes the documents, not asking the recipient to do anything.






> *And what about in terms of recency? If Trump took documents from the White House to Florida twenty months ago, would a judge want some reason to think that the documents are still there?*
> 
> Yes. One of the requirements for the search warrant is evidence that the information will be there during the two-week period that the F.B.I. is authorized to do a search—the information is not “stale.” And that’s the term of art that people talk about. Is the information being presented by the F.B.I. to the court stale? What you are looking for is some evidence of recency. Why would [the material] still be in that location? Even if something happened eighteen months ago, that’s fine. But a judge might say, “What makes you think it is still in that location?” This is speculation, but you would think that there has to be at least one source who gave the F.B.I. information about what was there fairly recently, and that whatever they were looking for was in that location.





On balance when I think about all this, and assuming that Trump's lawyers are capable and competent defenders of his rights in general,  it seems plausible to me that his attorneys and the DoJ may have essentially (even if implicitly) agreed that a search warrant was going to be the only way to acquire the material, i.e. to avoid the former president having to incriminate himself by producing the material as response to a subpoena.

As to the "recency" issues, that's something else.   Seems to me that must have come from some other person who did in fact recently respond to a subpoena (or step forward voluntarily) and whose deposition or testimony would give a judge ample reason to be satisfied that Trump still had documents the DoJ wanted to retrieve.


----------



## GermanSuplex

fooferdoggie said:


> hoisted on your own petard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump Made It A Felony To Mishandle Classified Documents In 2018
> 
> 
> The FBI search of the former president's Florida property was focused on mishandled presidential materials, according to reports.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com




How stupid can one guy be?
He made it a felony...
Like a fella once said, did Trump get kicked in the head?


----------



## Eric

Garland is about to make a statement, should be interesting.


----------



## GermanSuplex

NBC reported Trump was given subpoenas before the warrant was served. Like most subpoenas, he probably ignored it.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> NBC reported Trump was given subpoenas before the warrant was served. Like most subpoenas, he probably ignored it.




I think there was some discussion between DoJ and Trump's lawyers and some documents were provided,  but more were expected.  There was also meanwhile a DoJ trip to Mar a Lago where the security of an storage area was inspected from the outside and deemed inadequate for any classified materials still being withheld... and a new lock was installed (which the FBI later broke when executing the warrant).  It's unclear to the public at this point how those discussions evolved to where a search warrant was issued.


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> Garland is about to make a statement, should be interesting.




We had to wait 20 min at school for an asst prof and half an hour for a full professor to show up to class.

Wonder how long the press corp gets to wait on a US AG to take the podium...


----------



## Eric

lizkat said:


> We had to wait 20 min at school for an asst prof and half an hour for a full professor to show up to class.
> 
> Wonder how long the press corp gets to wait on a US AG to take the podium...



Yeah, 35 minutes late and counting so far.


----------



## Citysnaps

Eric said:


> Garland is about to make a statement, should be interesting.




Starting right now.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Warrant and manifest of items taken to be made public - because Trump opened his mouth first and made knowledge of the search public.


----------



## LIVEFRMNYC

That was a waste of time.


----------



## Renzatic

LIVEFRMNYC said:


> That was a waste of time.




Yeah, it was just a response to the ongoing criticisms calling the DOJ a bunch of stormtroopers raiding the homes of innocent civilians.

They're not going to speak about the details of an ongoing investigation. It's expected and understandable, if not a little disappointing.


----------



## lizkat

LIVEFRMNYC said:


> That was a waste of time.




I'd say it depends on how much of the now to be unsealed manifest of items taken is either redacted or referred to as "see classified appendix A".

Anyway it's  not a waste of time to have SOMEONE in the government take the shine off all those social media robo-fans of Trump busy attacking FBI guys for doing their job.   Those FBI agents didn't create the search warrant or vet its nature for political motivations, they just did what they were legally required to do.   Three days have passed and Trump's counsel hasn't stood up and said gee that wasn't fair.   In fact counsel was there during the search, so...  seems like it's all been done by the book.


----------



## Citysnaps

I suspect the titles and level of classification of some of the documents listed in the manifest will need to be redacted.  Still, it will be interesting to read between the lines/redactions.

I'm guessing many will be related to Russia.


----------



## Eric

Renzatic said:


> Yeah, it was just a response to the ongoing criticisms calling the DOJ a bunch of stormtroopers raiding the homes of innocent civilians.
> 
> They're not going to speak about the details of an ongoing investigation. It's expected and understandable, if not a little disappointing.



And it sounds like that would've been a bad call, they're sticking to protocol, good for them. Wheels of justice move slow but we'll eventually find out.


----------



## Citysnaps

LIVEFRMNYC said:


> That was a waste of time.




No, hardly a waste of time. It was _necessary_ to to rebut a lot of the knee-jerk criticism recently lobbed at the DOJ/FBI by various people holding certain views about the search warrant and seizure. In essence, those still kissing trump's ring.


----------



## Cmaier

citypix said:


> No, hardly a waste of time. It was _necessary_ to to rebut a lot of the criticism recently lobbed at the DOJ/FBI by various people.



The fun part will be when trump’s lawyers argue in court that the warrant should NOT be unsealed


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> The fun part will be when trump’s lawyers argue in court that the warrant should NOT be unsealed



Was just about to post this, Garland put the ball right back into Trump's court.


----------



## Citysnaps

Cmaier said:


> The fun part will be when trump’s lawyers argue in court that the warrant should NOT be unsealed




This morning I read trump hired an attorney famous for defending rappers to handle his Jan6th issues. Oddly, I don't find that too surprising.


----------



## Cmaier

Here’s the motion:

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/doj-motion-to-unseal-mar-a-lago-search-warrant-materials/96e7baa1452bcc2e/full.pdfhttps://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/doj-motion-to-unseal-mar-a-lago-search-warrant-materials/96e7baa1452bcc2e/full.pdf


----------



## GermanSuplex

The caveat is that Trump and his lawyers can appeal the request to unseal. BUT… that puts the ball squarely in his court, which is great. Put up or shut up. I suspect conservatives that demanded the release will move on from that argument and move on to more gaslighting.

*How long until cons attack the judge because he has a Hispanic name?


----------



## lizkat

citypix said:


> This morning I read trump hired an attorney famous for defending rappers to handle Jan6th issues.




Yeah but specifically for his problems in Georgia re his attempting to get the secretary of state to manipulate vote totals for 2020.    Weird thing there is that the guy he hired has made all manner of past statements impugning Trump as President.  Maybe Trump's setting up for an appeal later on,  i.e., incompetent or inadequate representation etc.  Go figure.

EDIT:  here's a link for info on the lawyer in question









						Trump Hires 'Billion Dollar Lawyer'
					

ATLANTA — Amid a deepening swirl of federal and state investigations, former President Donald Trump has hired a high-powered Atlanta lawyer to represent him in an inquiry into election interference in Georgia. The lawyer, Drew Findling, has represented an array of rap stars including Cardi B...




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## Citysnaps

Cmaier said:


> Here’s the motion:
> 
> https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/doj-motion-to-unseal-mar-a-lago-search-warrant-materials/96e7baa1452bcc2e/full.pdfhttps://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/doj-motion-to-unseal-mar-a-lago-search-warrant-materials/96e7baa1452bcc2e/full.pdf




_"The government will respond to the direction of the Court to provide further briefingas to additional entries on the docket, pursuant to the schedule set by the Court."_

What does "additional entries" mean in the above context?


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> The caveat is that Trump and his lawyers can appeal the request to unseal. BUT… that puts the ball squarely in his court, which is great. Put up or shut up. I suspect conservatives that demanded the release will move on from that argument and move on to more gaslighting.
> 
> *How long until cons attack the judge because he has a Hispanic name?




I'm more interested in whether Garland's statement does anything to get some of those Republican Party "leadership" officials to STFU and quit egging on the violence-inciting crowd still using Trump as their excuse to tout civil war as what we need next in the USA.


----------



## Eric

lizkat said:


> I'm more interested in whether Garland's statement does anything to get some of those Republican Party "leadership" officials to STFU and quit egging on the violence-inciting crowd still using Trump as their excuse to tout civil war as what we need next in the USA.



Unfortunately, people may have to die before they'll relent, if Jan 6th is any indication.


----------



## Cmaier

citypix said:


> _"The government will respond to the direction of the Court to provide further briefingas to additional entries on the docket, pursuant to the schedule set by the Court."_
> 
> What does "additional entries" mean in the above context?



I don’t know. Let me go see if I can see the docket, or if the docket, itself, is sealed.


----------



## Cmaier

Found the docket. It has 18 entries.  A bunch of them are various news organizations that are seeking to unseal the warrant.


----------



## Cmaier

Cmaier said:


> I don’t know. Let me go see if I can see the docket, or if the docket, itself, is sealed.



Ok, so what it seems the government is saying here is that since a bunch of news organizations already moved to unseal, if the court wants the government to chime in on those it will do so.


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> Unfortunately, people may have to die before they'll relent, if Jan 6th is any indication.



The tragedies and threats to or ruination of other people's lives continue, and I hold the Republican Party itself responsible.   They wanted to use Trump's charisma and his malleability to get what THEY wanted, and they knew the danger ahead of trying to sideline him and still mollify his base as his marginal utility to their agenda declined.  Yet their cowardice and lust for power embed them ever more deeply in the damage Trump is still wreaking in our social fabric and in the underpinnings of our democracy.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> The caveat is that Trump and his lawyers can appeal the request to unseal. BUT… that puts the ball squarely in his court, which is great. Put up or shut up. I suspect conservatives that demanded the release will move on from that argument and move on to more gaslighting.
> 
> *How long until cons attack the judge because he has a Hispanic name?




Sure because the language in that motion made it crystal clear that the reasons for the government requesting that the warrant be sealed vanished the moment Trump opened his mouth about the search.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> Unfortunately, people may have to die before they'll relent, if Jan 6th is any indication.




I'm not even convinced that will work. Conservatives will just claim it was a lib if a conservative dies, or a staged event if its a liberal death.

Not even threatening to kill the VP swayed these people.


----------



## Macky-Mac

so far this episode looks more like a net plus for the Trump gang instead of a net negative


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

The big question in 2023 will be which collected more money in 2022, taxes by the IRS or Trump legal defense funds from his loyal rubes. I think there’s a good chance we could wipe out the national debt with the latter.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Macky-Mac said:


> so far this episode looks more like a net plus for the Trump gang instead of a net negative




I disagree. I think the DoJ has what they were after - which is why they quickly moved to unseal documents - and I doubt it was anything minor if they issued a warrant to go get it.

Time will tell, but I don't think continually paying the short game will pay off for Trump in the long run.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> I'm not even convinced that will work. Conservatives will just claim it was a lib if a conservative dies, or a staged event if its a conservative death.
> 
> Not even threatening to kill the VP swayed these people.




Nothing is real to them.  It's all reality TV.   The threat to kill Pence has had EXACTLY the same weight as Trump's campaign-era remark that he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose a vote.  Both very exciting concepts and neither happened, so.. _what's the big deal_.

These guys with their Trump flags and hats are totally jaded by their own long dalliances in fantasies of violence, or their voyeurism via social media coverage of militant threats made at some courthouses and capitol buildings around the USA.  Most of them would run shrieking for their mamas if an actual troop carrier vehicle lumbered down their suburban street.  Yet they preach on how civil war is at hand.

 I don't know how some of these idiots explain themselves to their own children or grandchildren.  They are not truly conservatives, nor Republicans worthy of the banner formerly waved by the party of Reagan.


----------



## Macky-Mac

GermanSuplex said:


> I disagree. I think the DoJ has what they were after - which is why they quickly moved to unseal documents - and I doubt it was anything minor if they issued a warrant to go get it.
> 
> Time will tell, but I don't think continually paying the short game will pay off for Trump in the long run.




Thinking back to 2016 when just before the election, suddenly FBI Director Comey's event occurred, I recall people saying he certainly wouldn't be getting involved unless the FBI had uncovered something major......and it turned out to be a farce. 

That Garland felt he had to respond at all suggests he's feeling the heat and knows he's currently losing the PR posturing battle.

All those of us who don't like Trump may be happy, but I doubt this episode is hurting Trump at all......not yet anyway. In the meantime it's reinforcing his supporters feelings of resentment and victimhood


----------



## Cmaier

Macky-Mac said:


> All those of us who don't like Trump may be happy, but I doubt this episode is hurting Trump at all......not yet anyway. In the meantime it's reinforcing his supporters feelings of resentment and victimhood




So what. EVERYTHING does that.

Female cast in a movie? Resentment and victimhood
Happy Holidays on a coffee cup? Resentment and victimhood
Lose an election? Resentment and victimhood
Win an election? Resentment and victimhood
Dr. Seuss? Resentment and victimhood
EDITED TO ADD:
Meatless hamburgers? Resentment and victimhood.
Jews? Resentment and victimhood.
Immigrants? Resentment and victimhood.
Taco trucks? Resentment and victimhood.

Nobody should give two shits worrying about whether his supporters feel resentment and victimhood. Just do the right thing and fuck those guys.


----------



## Eric

Macky-Mac said:


> Thinking back to 2016 when just before the election, suddenly FBI Director Comey's event occurred, I recall people saying he certainly wouldn't be getting involved unless the FBI had uncovered something major......and it turned out to be a farce.
> 
> *That Garland felt he had to respond at all suggests he's feeling the heat and knows he's currently losing the PR posturing battle.*



Republicans have been demanding that he say something, we all knew the second he did they would vilify him in this way. To these people there was nothing he could've done or said that would've placated them. The bigger question is how will this play to those who aren't radical MAGA supporters.



Macky-Mac said:


> All those of us who don't like Trump may be happy, but I doubt this episode is hurting Trump at all......not yet anyway. In the meantime it's reinforcing his supporters feelings of resentment and victimhood



His supporters are already radicalized, nothing will change that.


----------



## lizkat

Macky-Mac said:


> That Garland felt he had to respond at all suggests he's feeling the heat and knows he's currently losing the PR posturing battle.





In my opinion, Garland had to say something this week, if only (and preferably only) to reinforce the DoJ's position that it will comment appropriately at any appropriate time during the investigation.  And to defend the people who work at the FBI and DoJ from ill considered scorn.

You may call that a turn in "the PR battle" and some have called it a waste of time,  but I'd call it an appropriate riposte to all the chaff flying around social media and the airwaves about how the DoJ is picking on poor ol' Donald Trump.  They're not.  And poor ol' Don has lawyers to speak for him, if he'd let them do their job. And good luck to them on that score.

We can cherry pick instances of law enforcement statements or behavior that we don't care for, but we do have a rule of law and it would be unseemly for Garland to let pass unremarked the idea that anyone including a former president of the USA is free of either the obligations or the rights afforded by our laws.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Macky-Mac said:


> That Garland felt he had to respond at all suggests he's feeling the heat and knows he's currently losing the PR posturing battle.




I think the DOJ is well aware of the threat by adults with toddler brain and always loaded firearms looking for any opportunity to be the top deplorable egged on by their media where “there’s going to be a civil war!” is code for “there’s going to be a civil war!” So from time to time they might take some out of the ordinary steps to lessen that probability until it’s actually go time.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Macky-Mac said:


> That Garland felt he had to respond at all suggests he's feeling the heat and knows he's currently losing the PR posturing battle.




I understand where you're coming from, but Garland had meat on the bone he threw out today. It wasn't empty words. I think it was a smart move to ask to unseal the documents this soon. It puts the ball squarely in Trump's court. As others have said, I don't think it will change the minds of his supporters - just like Trump insisted he wasn't a tax dodger, but refused to let anyone see his records voluntarily. His supporters don't care. Their arguments are fluid. If Garland had videotape evidence of Trump stealing classified documents and audio of him admitting he was planning on selling it directly to Russia in person at Mar-A-Lago, the argument would shift from "He did nothing wrong, this is a witch hunt" to "As a former president, he was able to declassify anything he wanted at any time and thus its all ok and this is a witch hunt". Republicans demanded Garland release info. He's done that, and now the argument will move again.

There is no way to "win" these arguments when the opposing side will never accept defeat or admit to being wrong. So as myself and others have said, you may as well let them continue to be pissed off while doing the right thing, instead of doing nothing out of fear of the repercussions. Because if you do nothing, that too will be fodder for them to preach about how successful they are and what a standup, transparent, honest, perfect man Trump is.

Maybe its just wishful thinking, and these last seven years seems like a long time, but Trump hasn't really been a politician for all that long. Seven years isn't that long a stretch of time, and its only been five since he took office and the movement morphed from devoted defenses of him to full-on cult status. Nothing lasts forever, and the GOP is on an unsustainable path. I do think all of this will eventually catch up with them, and just as fast as Trump took the morons in this country for a ride and drug the GOP political elite with him, it can turn around just as quickly. There will come a time when condemning Trump and distancing yourself from him will be just as popular as clinging to his sinking ship.


----------



## Eric

Can't make this stuff up, folks.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557388374687862790/


----------



## Macky-Mac

I haven't figured out the multi-quote here.....but I'm not saying any of YOU shouldn't care.......but If you think this is going to cause Trump any actual trouble, I disagree, although I wish it would. Unfortunately it might help him more than hurt him

Clearly anti-trumpers are hoping for some truly damaging event that will open the eyes of his supporters who will then shrink away in shame and horror.........but Trump's very skilled at getting away with outrageous behavior.


----------



## Eric

Macky-Mac said:


> I haven't figured out the multi-quote here.....but I'm not saying any of YOU shouldn't care.......but If you think this is going to cause Trump any actual trouble, I disagree, although I wish it would. Unfortunately it might help him more than hurt him
> 
> Clearly anti-trumpers are hoping for some truly damaging event that will open the eyes of his supporters who will then shrink away in shame and horror.........but Trump's very skilled at getting away with outrageous behavior.



A lot of us would be happy to simply see him held accountable for actual laws that he's broken, no more, no less. Putting him above these laws is obviously infuriating when normal citizens are regularly held accountable.

If there's nothing they can charge on then so be it, if there is, then charge him like any other citizen.

There's also the double standard of those who always tout "law and order" screaming for their guy to get a free pass.


----------



## Renzatic

Macky-Mac said:


> I haven't figured out the multi-quote here.....but I'm not saying any of YOU shouldn't care.......but If you think this is going to cause Trump any actual trouble, I disagree, although I wish it would.




I wouldn't say that. I very much doubt the DOJ would go to these lengths just to give Trump a hard time. When you consider this alongside everything we've gleamed from the Jan. 6th Committee hearings, you can see that things are slowly and surely coming to a head.

When the day comes that we finally learn the breadth and scope of the DOJ's case, I imagine we'll see a lot of fecal matter coming into contact with some spinning blades. I also expect there to be an equal and opposite violent response to it as well.


----------



## lizkat

Macky-Mac said:


> I haven't figured out the multi-quote here.....but I'm not saying any of YOU shouldn't care.......but If you think this is going to cause Trump any actual trouble, I disagree, although I wish it would. Unfortunately it might help him more than hurt him
> 
> Clearly anti-trumpers are hoping for some truly damaging event that will open the eyes of his supporters who will then shrink away in shame and horror.........but Trump's very skilled at getting away with outrageous behavior.




Yeah I don't think Garland's statement was for or against Trump supporters.  It was in support of  DoJ and FBI workers,  and in support of our rule of law.

I'm pretty sure Garland gets it that Trump supporters are responsible for their own speech and behavior. Should that happen to intersect down the road with criminal law enforcement, that's one thing, but in the meantime Garland's about doing what he's supposed to do and seeing that his employees are supported in their assigned work.

As for Trump's teflon-like ability to skate (or ski),  yeah it boggles the mind really.  He's on a hell of a downhill course now though,  if you ask me.   Might just be another practice run,  or he might finally have crossed a line where law enforcement has the goods to engage with him for real.  His lawyers are going to have to work overtime to keep him from self-sabotaging.

Catastrophic finishes are the hallmarks of decompensating narcissists:  ask any psych nurse.   In the end he will need pity.  His supporters will be long gone by then.    They're a few months or a few years from reminiscing about him during summers, having a few beers around the grill with burgers and sausages on the fire and talking about the good old days "before he tailed off and got so damn weak."


----------



## Macky-Mac

Renzatic said:


> I wouldn't say that. I very much doubt the DOJ would go to these lengths just to give Trump a hard time. When you consider this alongside everything we've gleamed from the Jan. 6th Committee hearings, you can see that things are slowly and surely coming to a head.
> 
> When the day comes that we finally learn the breadth and scope of the DOJ's case, I imagine we'll see a lot of fecal matter coming into contact with some spinning blades. I also expect there to be an equal and opposite violent response to it as well.




I wasn't certainly wasn't saying the DOJ was doing this "_just to give Trump a hard time_". 

But what I'm saying is that I suspect it won't hurt Trump at all, rather in the end it'll help him in exploiting the idea that he's being persecuted.....yet again


----------



## Eric

Macky-Mac said:


> I wasn't certainly wasn't saying the DOJ was doing this "_just to give Trump a hard time_".
> 
> *But what I'm saying is that I suspect it won't hurt Trump at all, rather in the end it'll help him in exploiting the idea that he's being persecuted.....yet again*



I don't think anyone expects it to hurt him, he's gotten away with every horrible thing he's done as a human being his entire life. It will only surprise people if he actually gets held accountable for the first time.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Macky-Mac said:


> I haven't figured out the multi-quote here.....but I'm not saying any of YOU shouldn't care.......but If you think this is going to cause Trump any actual trouble, I disagree, although I wish it would. Unfortunately it might help him more than hurt him
> 
> Clearly anti-trumpers are hoping for some truly damaging event that will open the eyes of his supporters who will then shrink away in shame and horror.........but Trump's very skilled at getting away with outrageous behavior.




I think most of us have stopped caring about what Trump supporters think. To take a page from their own playbook – fuck their feelings. I think that switch in caring happened midway during the hearings. Prior to that there was possibly a desire to have them wake the fuck up, but that time has passed. They’ve proven themselves beyond reach.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Getting ugly…. They will change their tune when or if this fantasy of war in the streets becomes real and they’re coming home from work with a six-pack and there’s a group of armed rednecks outside their cul-de-sac home. Do these people think they’ll be able to tell liberals from conservatives out and about in public?

They’re not pro-law enforcement, they’re racist and pro-Trump, and they’re anti-law enforcement except for the select few they should be against - like the ones who commit murder of minorities.

Seriously, it’s time to teach these folks that their actions - and even sometimes their words - have real consequences, and sometimes legal ones if you cross the line.









						Far-Right Extremists Are Violently Threatening the Trump Search-Warrant Judge
					

“Let's find out if he has children... where they go to school, where they live... EVERYTHING,” one person wrote on a message board where the judge’s address was posted.




					www.vice.com


----------



## Macky-Mac

Eric said:


> I don't think anyone expects it to hurt him, he's gotten away with every horrible thing he's done as a human being his entire life. It will only surprise people if he actually gets held accountable for the first time.




he's actually quite skilled at getting away with horrible behavior


----------



## Renzatic

Macky-Mac said:


> But what I'm saying is that I suspect it won't hurt Trump at all, rather in the end it'll help him in exploiting the idea that he's being persecuted.....yet again




That all depends upon how this ends, whether we see Trump being perp walked to a jail cell or not.


----------



## lizkat

Macky-Mac said:


> he's actually quite skilled at getting away with horrible behavior




Yep...  but not without a lot of winking and nodding from this version of the Republican Party.  It's not just his fan base out in the streets.  It's the people they helped elect to the US House and Senate.


----------



## GermanSuplex

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557024004871012353/


----------



## Renzatic

GermanSuplex said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557024004871012353/




I'm sure they're aware that Trump could release the warrant himself, right?


----------



## Eric

GermanSuplex said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557024004871012353/



Ted Cruz and Republicans today...


----------



## fooferdoggie

Macky-Mac said:


> he's actually quite skilled at getting away with horrible behavior



his daddy trained him well.


----------



## lizkat

Heh, the memes ...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557808993409683457/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Renzatic said:


> I'm sure they're aware that Trump could release the warrant himself, right?




Who knows, but they believe anything they’re told. Cruz made this statement before Garland’s remarks. It’s now up to Trump to agree to what Cruz is demanding. I suspect if Trump doesn’t allow the materials released (if he can convince the courts not to), the argument will shift.

Ironically, it was people like Cruz and Graham who predicted all of this behavior from Trump… when they were running against him in 2016.

My guess is the argument will shift to “WHY DID GARLAND AND JOE BIDEN’S FBI ALLOW THIS TO BE RELEASED!?!?”


----------



## Eric

There's that.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557849797255499776/


----------



## fooferdoggie

If trump took a dump on the street His craqzy followers would find someway to make him look good doing it. I can just see Cruz doing it


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I thought I would head over to Fox to see what is going on, and I think this is actually an interesting article.









						Washington Post op-ed condemns Trump supporters for buying into 'fantasy' of 'persecution'
					

The columnist suggested that Republicans expressed outrage over the FBI Trump raid because a ‘sense of oppression has become central to motivating conservative voters.’




					www.foxnews.com
				




It's like they're saying "Hey idiot, they are saying you are an idiot and what your idiotic beliefs are.  Are you going to take that, idiot?!?!"  It pretty much lays out Republican strategy and motivations that are less than honest or problem solving.  I don't know how they expect their readers to take it.


----------



## Macky-Mac

lizkat said:


> Yep...  but not without a lot of winking and nodding from this version of the Republican Party.  It's not just his fan base out in the streets.  It's the people they helped elect to the US House and Senate.




indeed, it's not just his fans in the street ......when it comes to elected officials facilitating his lawlessness, one has to wonder which of them are Trump's knowing co-conspirators and which have simply been duped by the scam


----------



## MEJHarrison

Macky-Mac said:


> Clearly anti-trumpers are hoping for some truly damaging event that will open the eyes of his supporters who will then shrink away in shame and horror.........




I'm convinced that will never happen.  It doesn't really matter what happens.  If you're ever in doubt, go to Fox, OAN, etc., find a story about Trump (or anything political) and scroll down to the comments.  It doesn't matter what evidence is presented to them.  They don't care and will ignore anything that doesn't agree with their world-view.  They're the flat-earthers of the political world.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I thought I would head over to Fox to see what is going on, and I think this is actually an interesting article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Washington Post op-ed condemns Trump supporters for buying into 'fantasy' of 'persecution'
> 
> 
> The columnist suggested that Republicans expressed outrage over the FBI Trump raid because a ‘sense of oppression has become central to motivating conservative voters.’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's like they're saying "Hey idiot, they are saying you are an idiot and what your idiotic beliefs are.  Are you going to take that, idiot?!?!"  It pretty much lays out Republican strategy and motivations that are less than honest or problem solving.  I don't know how they expect their readers to take it.




Wow, yeah.  It's really kinda weird for Fox to embed at the top of the piece a video with a Congressman from Indiana spouting the Rs' talking points against the Mar a Lago search warrant execution, since the whole rest of the piece is basically excerpts from that WaPo op ed laying out how Trump fans are being used by the Republicans and getting nothing out of their adulation and support.   WTF?

 Well they do say Murdoch is walking the fence now on the whole issue of supporting or ditching Trump...  whatever sells a newspaper will do in the meantime, eh.  But here Fox seems to be saying to their readers: "Hey,  you decide:  is he your guy like they say,  or are you just being had?"    Interesting indeed.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I thought I would head over to Fox to see what is going on, and I think this is actually an interesting article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Washington Post op-ed condemns Trump supporters for buying into 'fantasy' of 'persecution'
> 
> 
> The columnist suggested that Republicans expressed outrage over the FBI Trump raid because a ‘sense of oppression has become central to motivating conservative voters.’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's like they're saying "Hey idiot, they are saying you are an idiot and what your idiotic beliefs are.  Are you going to take that, idiot?!?!"  It pretty much lays out Republican strategy and motivations that are less than honest or problem solving.  I don't know how they expect their readers to take it.




That’s why I’m baffled by some of the defenses of Trump this week. I expected the usual gaslighting of their base, but I expected it to be more along the lines of “this is all political BS, the president can declassify documents, this was unnecessary, they should have just asked”.

Instead, they’ve said “if they can do it to him, they can do it to you”. Which reveals just how dumb Fox and conservative pundits believe their base is. First, they have it backwards. If it can happen to us, it could and should happen to him. Secondly, it DOES happen to others, all the time. These same mouth breathers defend faulty no-knock warrants. But FBI agents can’t show up to a golf club when the owner is out of town to retrieve documents they ALREADY requested?

Pretty sure if the feds or local cops had legit reason to believe I operated a meth lab, they’d show up at my door without warning.


----------



## Eric

Some of these comments are gold...






Merrick Garland is officially in "find out" phase with DJT from
      WhitePeopleTwitter

BTW This move literally flipped the narrative in a period of a couple of hours. Trump should've kept his mouth shut.


----------



## Renzatic

MEJHarrison said:


> I'm convinced that will never happen. It doesn't really matter what happens.




It won't, and it doesn't. We just have to do what we have to do, and endure the fallout.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The man who attacked the FBI office in Ohio today died in a standoff. No knowledge of his motives yet, but I’m sure many MAGAts will treat him like a hero and martyr.

Reports say this suspect was also at the Capitol on J6.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> The man who attacked the FBI office in Ohio today died in a standoff. No knowledge of his motives yet, but I’m sure many MAGAts will treat him like a hero and martyr.
> 
> Reports say this suspect was also at the Capitol on J6.




One can hope he left a manifesto somewhere... so we learn something of his motives.

EDIT:   well the guy having been at the 1/6 thing sheds some light anyway.


----------



## Renzatic

lizkat said:


> One can hope he left a manifesto somewhere... so we learn something of his motives.
> 
> EDIT:   well the guy having been at the 1/6 thing sheds some light anyway.




Damn your ninja editing skills! I was gonna make fun of you!


----------



## Runs For Fun

Garland moves to unseal Trump warrant: I personally approved the search
					

The attorney general defended the FBI’s search of Trump’s Florida home in his first comments on the matter.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Eric

Renzatic said:


> Damn your ninja editing skills! I was gonna make fun of you!



You're best to steer clear of busting on the likes of @lizkat @Scepticalscribe @Alli in the end they're grammar ninjas and can only make you look bad, though they're usually nice enough to spare you. 

Don't poke the bear.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The fill-in for Tucker Carlson tonight, Brian Kilmeade, asked why Garland waited until today to address the American people instead of before the raid.

WTF?

How fucking stupid are Fox viewers? I mean, I’m shocked I have to ask the question, but seriously? Why didn’t the AG address America about a search warrant he hadn’t yet acted upon?

Oh, and for good measure, he bitched about the briefing being late and said this was a great week for Trump. Desperate much?

I also heard a clip of Rand Paul - barely better than Ted Cruz and Ron Johnson (perhaps worse) - asking “how do we know they didn’t plant evidence?” How do you EVER know evidence wasn’t planted in ANY case? Did they ask that question when the FBI obtained material on Hillary Clinton? How do we know the FBI didn’t delete her emails so they could accuse her? BECAUSE THEY F******G DIDN’T.


----------



## Eric

GermanSuplex said:


> The fill-in for Tucker Carlson tonight, Brian Kilmeade, asked why Garland waited until today to address the American people instead of before the raid.
> 
> WTF?
> 
> How fucking stupid are Fox viewers? I mean, I’m shocked I have to ask the question, but seriously? Why didn’t the AG address America about a search warrant he hadn’t yet acted upon?
> 
> Oh, and for good measure, he bitched about the briefing being late and said this was a great week for Trump. Desperate much?
> 
> I also heard a clip of Rand Paul - barely better than Ted Cruz and Ron Johnson (perhaps worse) - asking “how do we know they didn’t plant evidence?” How do you EVER know evidence wasn’t planted in ANY case? Did they ask that question when the FBI obtained material on Hillary Clinton? How do we know the FBI didn’t delete her emails so they could accuse her? BECAUSE THEY F******G DIDN’T.



Same reason they're suspicious about the price of gas dropping, they're basically dolts catering to the lowest denominator.

As for Rand Paul, some people are asking "how do we know he's not having sex with farm animals?" he needs to explain this.


----------



## GermanSuplex

WaPo reporting they were looking for nuclear documents…


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I'll give these right-wing "revolutionaries" that our government is majorly corrupt and broken.  I'll admit that government action and inaction probably more directly affects them in their rural areas and small towns than my fancy city ass and they've been ignored and in decline for decades.  But here's where it becomes a monumental embarrassment, they think their savior is Donald J Trump.  For 98% of his life he's been their enemy on major issues if they bothered to look into it.   The remaining 2% that logically explains the devotion is the shout out feedback loop he and his voters get hopped up on, he's mainstreamed surface level racism for those who are racist, and he switched the narrative from bootstrapping yourself to success to literally everybody but yourself is holding you back/take no personal responsibility.  I understand that can be intoxicating but it solves nothing.  By that logic you'll never be successful or content until you are the last person left alive.  And that's why there's no hope for a lot of these people.  They'll never run out of inventing enemies or being victims.


----------



## Cmaier

Nuclear weapons. The dude had documents about nuclear weapons. Why? What did he need those for.









						FBI sought nuclear documents in search of Trump's home - Washington Post
					

U.S. federal agents were looking for documents relating to nuclear weapons when they searched former President Donald Trump's home in Florida this week, the Washington Post reported on Thursday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

Fox talking heads whining “but he was cooperating!” Ok? Apparently he wasn’t, or not fast enough. The bending over for that man is insane. He’s one guy. How long were they supposed to give him? Another week? A year? A decade? Clearly he knew what they wanted and when, or he wouldn’t have cooperated in the first place. And if he did have them and didn’t know where, doesn’t that reinforce he shouldn’t have them in the first place, and why we don’t allow people - not even former presidents - to just take whatever they want wherever they want?

Remember when Trump first took office and people who said they feared he’d try to stay in power or mishandle things relating to nukes were derided as having “TDS”?


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> Nuclear weapons. The dude had documents about nuclear weapons. Why? What did he need those for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FBI sought nuclear documents in search of Trump's home - Washington Post
> 
> 
> U.S. federal agents were looking for documents relating to nuclear weapons when they searched former President Donald Trump's home in Florida this week, the Washington Post reported on Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com



Holy crap man that's a big deal, I hate to make any assumptions with that but outside of selling/using it for leverage it what could he possibly want that for?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Cmaier said:


> Nuclear weapons. The dude had documents about nuclear weapons. Why? What did he need those for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FBI sought nuclear documents in search of Trump's home - Washington Post
> 
> 
> U.S. federal agents were looking for documents relating to nuclear weapons when they searched former President Donald Trump's home in Florida this week, the Washington Post reported on Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com




I’m sure it was another accident. Or they were planted. Either an aide accidentally stuck them in the office supplies box (since I’m sure top-secret documents pertaining to nukes are just casually floating around the office and easy to get and mix-up ), or something more nefarious happened… Garland got a warrant just to get his goons to plant classified documents at Trump’s golf club.

Definitely nothing Trump did though. Just a victim of the deep state or horrible circumstances.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Fox News has some old lady showing us a dinosaur skeleton as the other networks report on the WaPo nuke news.


----------



## Renzatic

Eric said:


> You're best to steer clear of busting on the likes of @lizkat @Scepticalscribe @Alli in the end they're grammar ninjas and can only make you look bad, though they're usually nice enough to spare you.
> 
> Don't poke the bear.




Ain't scared none.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> WaPo reporting they were looking for nuclear documents…




ok well then i'll just leave this here.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557854202453364736/


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Holy crap man that's a big deal, I hate to make any assumptions with that but outside of selling/using it for leverage it what could he possibly want that for?



To trade to the Saudis in exchange for the golf tournament?  To give to his russian spy pals who are always milling about Mar-a-Lago? Who knows.


----------



## Cmaier

Trump’s story will be: “The only classified documents I kept were documents that proved the Deep State conspiracy, including by the very bad people at the FBI, to commit treason and undermine the greatest presidency of all time.  The only nuclear documents were planted by the FBI when they “searched” my beautiful home and refused to let anyone watch them.”


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> To trade to the Saudis in exchange for the golf tournament?  To give to his russian spy pals who are always milling about Mar-a-Lago? Who knows.




After reading the WaPo piece and its mention of knowledge among intel officials that sensitive material was not always handled properly even while in the West Wing,  one could wonder now, long after removal of such or similar material to Mar a Lago, if the documents have since then already been copied or shared out to people not remotely qualified to read them.

No wonder DoJ wanted to expedite retrieval after Trump and his counsel were taking their sweet time "deciding" whether or when or how the material could be returned in a manner that would not cause Trump to self-incriminate on the matter of possessing such docs after leaving office.

As for what his story now will be,  that's just boilerplate for his minions.  Wonder what the GOP leadership is doing tonight.   Trying to find reverse gear in their made-for-TV chariot?  

As for the White House, wow.   They've been careful not to comment.   I bet they're fielding some calls from allies at this point though about the state of our (and their) national security.   The breaches if any are on Trump, but it's Biden's administration that will have to sort it out.   Ugh.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Man, I hate to keep dropping Fox nuggets, but they are really desperate this week. The rhetoric coming from them is flailing and sad even for the low (non-existing?) standards of this network. Hannity can hardly get his words out. He’s wondering why Obama, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Hunter Biden and Joe Biden haven’t been raided. I’ve heard Hunter Biden’s name this week as much as I have Trump’s.

They keep harping on that Trump cooperated, glossing over what he did, while implying every past president has done the same thing and Trump is being singled out. Truly embarrassing stuff on this “news” network. Hannity is stumbling over his talking points.

 Never mind the fact Garland wasn’t even AG for most of the stuff they’ve been whining about.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Good explanation for those who think Garlands announcement was a waste of time.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Fox and the GOP are so transparently hypocritical about this issue. They relentlessly attacked Hillary Clinton over her emails and said they were evidence that she couldn't be trusted. But Trump takes sensitive documents home with him and refuses to return all of them and, well, that's okay with them - it's really the FBI and DOJ that are in the wrong here. And that creep Rand Paul is complaining that the FBI raid is an attack on the "rule of law," but the guy who illegally took documents home, and who by the way incited an attempted coup, warrants no criticism by him. The sad thing is that so many Americans have been brainwashed by Fox et al that they don't recognize the deceit.


----------



## Cmaier

I have an update:


----------



## Alli

Shall we take a vote as to whether team former guy allows them to release the contents or not?


----------



## Cmaier

Alli said:


> Shall we take a vote as to whether team former guy allows them to release the contents or not?



He always delays and he benefits from uncertainty. The document probably mentions the words “nuclear weapons” which is why it leaked.  

I guess he will object.


----------



## Alli

Cmaier said:


> He always delays and he benefits from uncertainty. The document probably mentions the words “nuclear weapons” which is why it leaked.
> 
> I guess he will object.



Leaving the GOP standing with their thumbs up their asses since they were demanding it be released.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Alli said:


> Shall we take a vote as to whether team former guy allows them to release the contents or not?




I don’t think he will. His base goes along with him no matter what, so I’d imagine he’ll fight it because they know it won’t matter to his supporters anyway. Just like his tax returns.

However, he may not have a choice. The government has requested them be unsealed, and Trump can make a case  as to why he wants them sealed, but that’s no guarantee he’ll succeed. He has to prove that releasing them can harm him, and he’s not done himself any favors by releasing the info of the search of his home and making baseless claims against the DoJ.



Alli said:


> Leaving the GOP standing with their thumbs up their asses since they were demanding it be released.




Oh, the republicans have selective amnesia. They’ve probably already dropped the demand to see those things now that the DoJ has agreed with them.


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> Shall we take a vote as to whether team former guy allows them to release the contents or not?




Well the leaks _*have*_ begun now, so... whether he allows the likely redacted materials list or not, people get the drift now of the urgency of obtaining and executing a warrant since progress had halted on voluntary return of materials being sought.

Still I would expect his counsel might object.   Sure Trump revealed that there had been a warrant and a "raid" by the FBI but the unsealing reveals among other things the specific criminal code citations involved.  It's one thing to read about speculations on what laws were broken and another to read specific allegations in a warrant that has been granted and executed.  Trump probably wouldn't like those phrases bandied about.

But...   I'm not sure  the objections will be taken seriously by the judge though.  I mean Trump did let the cat out of the bag himself.  No one said anything to the public in advance of the search.   And unsealing the warrant doesn't mean there won't be redactions to protect sensitive descriptions of what materials were seized.

Trump did this to himself (and to the GOP,  now trying to figure out where the emergency exit is).


----------



## GermanSuplex

If Trump had these documents, and I have no reason to doubt he did, a bigger question than him simply having them is how did he get them out of the White House and hold onto them for this long? Aren’t these documents closely watched and guarded? Are there logs of who has them?

And what the hell has he already done with them? If he hasn’t already put them to use, who knows what the hell he had planned with them.

And the right-wind media is correct; Trump is being treated differently. He’s been treated far better than you or I would be. There’s a lot of people who’ve felt the swift, strong arm of the justice department for less egregious acts regarding sensitive information.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> Shall we take a vote as to whether team former guy allows them to release the contents or not?



Already sounds like they're going to fight it.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> If Trump had these documents, and I have no reason to doubt he did, a bigger question than him simply having them is how did he get them out of the White House and hold onto them for this long? Aren’t these documents closely watched and guarded? Are there logs of who has them?
> 
> And what the hell has he already done with them? If he hasn’t already put them to use, who knows what the hell he had planned with them.
> 
> And the right-wind media is correct; Trump is being treated differently. He’s been treated far better than you or I would be. There’s a lot of people who’ve felt the swift, strong arm of the justice department for less egregious acts regarding sensitive information.




Yeah there are Americans who have done time taking pleas on less egregious security breaches.   There was a section over in PRSI at MR that discussed some of those cases a few years ago, but that'whole archive is gone now...

I've always been curious to know what if any information was ever withheld _*fro*_*m* Trump out of concern that he might reveal it to people without a need or any reason whatsoever to know.  I suppose in the end if it were sensitive info from an allied source, the allied country's government would not have shared it with US intel officially anyway if they had their own doubts.   Officially perhaps being a key word there.


----------



## Citysnaps

Cmaier said:


> To trade to the Saudis in exchange for the golf tournament?  To give to his russian spy pals who are always milling about Mar-a-Lago? Who knows.




Could be information about trump's activities US intelligence agencies snagged when he was in Russia.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Eric said:


> Already sounds like they're going to fight it.



Of course they are


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> Already sounds like they're going to fight it.




DoJ doesn't care.  They've made their points by saying to Trump and the GOP "fine, since you mentioned it exists,  let's unseal the thing and let everyone see what we're looking for and why,"

So that game's more or less over and DoJ won just by calling the bluff.


----------



## Eric

lizkat said:


> DoJ doesn't care.  They've made their points by saying to Trump and the GOP "fine, since you mentioned it exists,  let's unseal the thing and let everyone see what we're looking for and why,"
> 
> So that game's more or less over and DoJ won just by calling the bluff.



Trump and every Republican who was vocal about this got owned in no uncertain terms today, they've all but crawled under a rock.


----------



## Citysnaps

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/08/11/garland-trump-mar-a-lago/
		


Nuclear weapons documents.  Interesting if true.  And very valuable information some countries would love to get their hands on.

Eh...probably something trump wanted to read and learn about knowing he's a voracious reader.


----------



## shadow puppet

One more time for the slower learners:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557921440271310850/


----------



## Eric

I was about to ask what the charge would be, sounds like espionage then?


----------



## lizkat

citypix said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/08/11/garland-trump-mar-a-lago/
> 
> 
> 
> Nuclear weapons documents.  Interesting if true.  And very valuable information some countries would love to get their hands on.
> 
> Eh...probably something trump wanted to read and learn about knowing he's a voracious reader.




This whole thing must be making the skin crawl among other members of the Five Eyes intel allies.


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> This whole thing must be making the skin crawl among other members of the Five Eyes intel allies.




Especially Great Britain as we collaborate with them on that.


----------



## Cmaier

shadow puppet said:


> One more time for the slower learners:
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557921440271310850/




Even if a president could unilaterally declassify this stuff, it would certainly have been reclassified by Biden, and Trump still held onto it, despite being told to return it.  The fact that he kept this stuff despite returning other documents he kept in the same place is also evidence of his intent.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> I was about to ask what the charge would be, sounds like espionage then?



Among other things, 18 USC 1924 (Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material).  Prison for 5 years for that.

18 USC 641 is another one (10 years). 

You don’t even have to get to espionage.


----------



## Cmaier

Oh, and of course 18 USC 2071.  3 years and can’t hold office.


----------



## Yoused

C'mon man, every President keeps souvenirs of their time in office. Look, even Abe got to keep the bullet.


----------



## shadow puppet

If I lived in a conservative neighborhood, I would definitely do this.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557576091555876864/


----------



## fooferdoggie

citypix said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/08/11/garland-trump-mar-a-lago/
> 
> 
> 
> Nuclear weapons documents.  Interesting if true.  And very valuable information some countries would love to get their hands on.
> 
> Eh...probably something trump wanted to read and learn about knowing he's a voracious reader.



hopefully they have not already. if they are not in Crayon we may be safe.


----------



## lizkat

So now we await the possible nightmares unfolding...

Trump's gonna say he had no idea what was in those boxes, no idea how any classified stuff hadn't been put back wherever it belonged,must have been an aide's fault or a mixup,  everything such a rush at the end when he was leaving, who knew, gee, after all he was so busy trying to overturn the 2020 election, how the hell could anyone hold him responsible for crap like some paperwork got misplaced?!

I am so angry at the Republicans for not long ago having taken the early-indicated risk factors seriously with this f'g guy from before day one of his presidency.  For not confronting him on inappropriate and sometimes off-record behavior vis a vis Russian officials including Putin. For not removing  and disqualifying from future public officeholding when they had two impeachments presented by House and more than adequate presentations of that material in the Senate.

 But no...  the GOP chose to play it all as party above patria.  

We don't even know if the info has already been shared to wrong eyes.

Anyway so now comes the tab for all those dances with a Pied Piper wearing a naked emperor's robes, and it's Biden to be left holding the bag of backlash from allies while Trump gets to skate off saying he had nothing to do with any misplaced information and he hardly knew anyone who worked with or for him and  it's all been a witch hunt? 

This better not be how it wraps.   It's not going to sell in the voting booths.  Even early polls show 15% of Rs not happy about the revelations from Mar a Lago.  And that poll was taken before the word "nuclear" showed up in the post-search stories.


----------



## Runs For Fun

citypix said:


> knowing he's a voracious reader.



Oh yes
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556789017407983617/


----------



## Citysnaps

Runs For Fun said:


> Oh yes
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556789017407983617/




Too good!


----------



## Runs For Fun

shadow puppet said:


> If I lived in a conservative neighborhood, I would definitely do this.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557576091555876864/



I totally need to do this. I have an unused RaspberryPi and a wifi dongle. I could totally just broadcast random SSIDs.


----------



## Yoused

lizkat said:


> We don't even know if the info has already been shared to wrong eyes.




Problem is, there is no valid, legal reason for him to be in possession of those documents. The _only_ legal thing he could do with them is hand them, and any copies he might have made, along with all logs of electronic communications from M-a-L, etc, etc, to the State Department. Any other action must be _de facto_ treason, as defined in the Constitution. Whether or not the wrong eyes were ever laid upon them is immaterial.


----------



## Cmaier

Well, Trump posted on his social media what’s-it that he will not oppose releasing the warrant, and called for it to be released immediately.

He doesn’t explain why he didn’t just release it himself.


----------



## lizkat

Yoused said:


> Problem is, there is no valid, legal reason for him to be in possession of those documents. The _only_ legal thing he could do with them is hand them, and any copies he might have made, along with all logs of electronic communications from M-a-L, etc, etc, to the State Department. Any other action must be _de facto_ treason, as defined in the Constitution. Whether or not the wrong eyes were ever laid upon them is immaterial.




Of course it's immaterial as far as criminality if such docs were retained.   But there would be practical concern about inappropriate dissemination.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

An interesting fine point is that Garland referred to Mar-A-Lago as Trump's property, not his home.

Even better is what Michael Cohen calls it: Mar-A-Lardo.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump's lawyer admitted on Laura Ingraham she hadn't talked specifically about nuclear documents to Trump. Quite the exchange... a rare moment of actual journalism on Fox. It was fleeting, they don't deserve a pat on the back, but it was revealing nonetheless.

Go to 1:20..






The lawyer admits she hasn't even spoken to the president about it! Yet, everyone on Fox and in the GOP is getting a mile out ahead of this without knowing any details.

Also, the attempts to insinuate the FBI planted evidence is diminished by the fact that this same lawyer said Trump probably had a better view of the raid than she did, and that Trump and Melania watched the whole thing on their camera feed.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557902585134292992/


----------



## Edd

GermanSuplex said:


> Trump's lawyer admitted on Laura Ingraham she hadn't talked specifically about nuclear documents to Trump. Quite the exchange... a rare moment of actual journalism on Fox. It was fleeting, they don't deserve a pat on the back, but it was revealing nonetheless.
> 
> Go to 1:20..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The lawyer admits she hasn't even spoken to the president about it! Yet, everyone on Fox and in the GOP is getting a mile out ahead of this without knowing any details.
> 
> Also, the attempts to insinuate the FBI planted evidence is diminished by the fact that this same lawyer said Trump probably had a better view of the raid than she did, and that Trump and Melania watched the whole thing on their camera feed.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557902585134292992/



Cameras being off for a short period of time…Trumpers will claim that’s when the fake evidence was planted.


----------



## fischersd

Yoused said:


> Problem is, there is no valid, legal reason for him to be in possession of those documents. The _only_ legal thing he could do with them is hand them, and any copies he might have made, along with all logs of electronic communications from M-a-L, etc, etc, to the State Department. Any other action must be _de facto_ treason, as defined in the Constitution. Whether or not the wrong eyes were ever laid upon them is immaterial.



Putin needs some incentive to help with his 2024 bid.


----------



## Cmaier

Edd said:


> Cameras being off for a short period of time…Trumpers will claim that’s when the fake evidence was planted.



The scary thing is if it was so easy to plant documents, it must have been easy for his Saudi and russian buddies to retrieve documents.


----------



## Citysnaps

The Poisoned Relationship Between Trump and the Keepers of U.S. Secrets
					

The F.B.I. search of Mar-a-Lago is a coda to the years of tumult between an erratic president and the nation’s intelligence and law enforcement agencies.




					www.nytimes.com
				




A trip down memory lane about trump and US intelligence agencies. Astonishing many  people want to put him back in office.


----------



## fooferdoggie

1/6 insurrectionist who tried to shoot his way into an FBI building announced his plans that same morning.............. on Truth Social
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557854202314969088/


----------



## Cmaier

fooferdoggie said:


> 1/6 insurrectionist who tried to shoot his way into an FBI building announced his plans that same morning.............. on Truth Social
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557854202314969088/



And of course now the magas on social media are saying it was a false flag and he was a plant.


----------



## Alli

Eric said:


> Already sounds like they're going to fight it.



Yet Trump told them to go ahead. Probably knew his legal team would fight it. If he really wanted it released he could have done it himself at any time.


----------



## Alli

shadow puppet said:


> If I lived in a conservative neighborhood, I would definitely do this.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557576091555876864/



Back when I used a hotspot, it was Surveillance033.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Edd said:


> Cameras being off for a short period of time…Trumpers will claim that’s when the fake evidence was planted.




It won’t matter. Trump can claim in court any evidence he thinks was planted, which will also contradict any claims he can make about not knowing what items he had. It can’t be both.



Cmaier said:


> And of course now the magas on social media are saying it was a false flag and he was a plant.




These people are beyond predictable. Have they ever though it’s a lot easier for Trump to lie than it is for hundreds or thousands of officials to run these coordinate “plots”? This all seems more like a game at this point than their true beliefs.


----------



## rdrr

GermanSuplex said:


> It won’t matter. Trump can claim in court any evidence he thinks was planted, which will also contradict any claims he can make about not knowing what items he had. It can’t be both.
> 
> 
> 
> These people are beyond predictable. Have they ever though it’s a lot easier for Trump to lie than it is for hundreds or thousands of officials to run these coordinate “plots”? This all seems more like a game at this point than their true beliefs.



Doesn't the FBI take their own video(s) during an executed search?


----------



## Cmaier

rdrr said:


> Doesn't the FBI take their own video(s) during an executed search?



I don;t think so. They are pretty famous for not recording stuff (e.g. interviews)


----------



## shadow puppet

Very enjoyable way to begin my day with my morning cup of Joe.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558099740096573440/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558103242839564289/


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> Doesn't the FBI take their own video(s) during an executed search?






Cmaier said:


> I don;t think so. They are pretty famous for not recording stuff (e.g. interviews)




I caught some reference in mainstream media to the Mar a Lago cams having been turned off during execution of the search at some point "for protection of the agents".  Didn't say when or for how long and I couldn't figure out what that even meant, since didn't have any context, and so I still don't really get it.   Maybe some are usually undercover or something on other cases in the south Florida area?  But I don't think anything that happened in the process, all the way from the warrant ask to completion of the search and deposit of the seized materials in the Miami field office was left to spur-of-moment thinking.   Too much at stake.


----------



## Yoused

lizkat said:


> I caught some reference in mainstream media to the Mar a Lago cams having been turned off during execution of the search at some point "for protection of the agents". Didn't say when or for how long and I couldn't figure out what that even meant, since didn't have any context, and so I still don't really get it. Maybe some are usually undercover or something on other cases in the south Florida area?




No, look at what happens to people who oppose the Reactionary Juggernot. If one of the agents involved can be recognized by the magatry, there will be doxxing and death threats.


----------



## Cmaier

A confession.


----------



## rdrr

Cmaier said:


> A confession.
> 
> View attachment 16649




I am going to take a stab at this.  0.0


----------



## Yoused

Cmaier said:


> A confession.
> 
> View attachment 16649



Barack Hussein Obama was appacently not a reckless, seditious, insane megalomaniac, so we are less likely to be concerned about what is in his safe.


----------



## Pumbaa

Cmaier said:


> A confession.
> 
> View attachment 16649



I had to confirm that this was authentic. Wasn’t surprised it was. But still… Insane.


----------



## Edd

Cmaier said:


> A confession.
> 
> View attachment 16649



So this dumb shit must drive his lawyers up the wall. He can’t shut up. I assume the attorneys get paid in advance by the week? I’d accept no other arrangement with that chiseler fuck.


----------



## Cmaier

Edd said:


> So this dumb shit must drive his lawyers up the wall. He can’t shut up. I assume the attorneys get paid in advance by the week? I’d accept no other arrangement with that chiseler fuck.



Since his attorneys keep coming after him for money, I assume they don’t get an up front retainer.


----------



## shadow puppet

At least Hunter Biden's laptop didn't contain nuclear weapons info.
Nor did Hillary's emails.


----------



## Joe




----------



## Cmaier

We’re up to 32 docket entries - more news organizations looking to get the warrant affidavit unsealed, etc.  I’m keeping an eye out to see if Trump’s attorneys object to unsealing the warrant despite what Trump says or not.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Cmaier said:


> We’re up to 32 docket entries - more news organizations looking to get the warrant affidavit unsealed, etc.  I’m keeping an eye out to see if Trump’s attorneys object to unsealing the warrant despite what Trump says or not.



trump is gonna back out 100% or he would ahve released it himself. he was played so hard he was Ali's punching bag.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> The scary thing is if it was so easy to plant documents, it must have been easy for his Saudi and russian buddies to retrieve documents.




I’m just waiting for one of them to complete their thought. “It’s very easy for the FBI to plant evidence. They’ve been doing it to minorities for over a century. This is just more proof that whites are being replaced as minority justice hits our doorstep.”


----------



## Pumbaa

fooferdoggie said:


> trump is gonna back out 100% or he would ahve released it himself. he was played so hard he was Ali's punching bag.



The heat is getting to me, time to log out. Read it as @Alli‘s punching bag.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> trump is gonna back out 100% or he would ahve released it himself. he was played so hard he was Ali's punching bag.




He's gonna try to have it both ways.   Telling his base one thing on unTruth antiSocial and meanwhile letting counsel object. then when it's objected to formally, he'll say because of the witch hunt by yada yada persecutory yadayada,  he so sadly has had to take counsel advice and agree that it shouldn't be unsealed.

 His base doesn't seem to care about inconsistency anyway;  I think any fans who notice just figure it's part of Trump's "super-savvy" way of _*owning libs*_ by enraging them over the weather-vane aspects of Trump's utterances about anything.   It's all reality TV, remember...


----------



## Renzatic

fooferdoggie said:


> trump is gonna back out 100% or he would ahve released it himself. he was played so hard he was Ali's punching bag.




I believe he only has about an hour left to contest it.


----------



## Cmaier

Renzatic said:


> I believe he only has about an hour left to contest it.



Technically not quite true. The government has about an hour to file a certification that it met and conferred with Trump’s attorneys.  In that certification the government is supposed to say whether trump agrees to unsealing.  It would not be particularly surprising if something was filed that said “we met with attorneys for trump for 2 hours this morning. They are taking the position that they need more time to decide…”


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> He's gonna try to have it both ways.   Telling his base one thing on unTruth antiSocial and meanwhile letting counsel object. then when it's objected to formally, he'll say because of the witch hunt by yada yada persecutory yadayada,  he so sadly has had to take counsel advice and agree that it shouldn't be unsealed.
> 
> His base doesn't seem to care about inconsistency anyway;  I think any fans who notice just figure it's part of Trump's "super-savvy" way of _*owning libs*_ by enraging them over the weather-vane aspects of Trump's utterances about anything.   It's all reality TV, remember...



exactly.


----------



## Cmaier

FBI Recovered 11 Sets of Classified Documents in Trump Search, Inventory Shows — The Wall Street Journal
					

Trump allies claim the former president declassified the documents recovered from Mar-a-Lago




					apple.news
				




Docs on president of france?
Roger stone pardon?

FBI agents who searched former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago home Monday removed 11 sets of classified documents, including some marked as top secret and meant to be only available in special government facilities, according to documents reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. 

…
The Federal Bureau of Investigation agents took around 20 boxes of items, binders of photos, a handwritten note and the executive grant of clemency for Mr. Trump’s ally Roger Stone, a list of items removed from the property shows. Also included in the list was information about the “President of France,” according to the three-page list. The list is contained in a seven-page document that also includes the warrant to search the premises which was granted by a federal magistrate judge in Florida. 
…


----------



## shadow puppet

Wow.  Just wow.  11 felonies?!!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558142222234800128/


----------



## Runs For Fun

Pumbaa said:


> The heat is getting to me, time to log out. Read it as @Alli‘s punching bag.



Not the only one!


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558125214155907074/


----------



## shadow puppet

Wish I'd signed up and done this.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558009897823965185/


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> Docs on president of france?
> Roger stone pardon?




Sheesh.  By now Biden must have some senior counsel designated to "handle fallout from whatever it is Trump hauled out of the White House that isn't his."

The weird stuff like info about the president of France are in one category of headache with possible ramifications for the Biden administration having to deal w/ international inquiries...    but the really serious problem for Trump is the docs that are classified at such high levels.  That doesn't sound like the stuff of classified cables from ambassadors about the foibles of some diplomat in Brussels or South Asia.

 Trump will maybe try claiming he declassified whatever those classified sets of papers are, regardless if the rules require some other agency (Energy, for instance) to sign off on it, as with anything related to nuclear materials.  But there are formal processes for that and they can't be done retroactively by Trump now anyway... 

_"oh i meant to, i was just busy trying to find 11789 votes in Georgia..."_​
Since --or should I still say "if"?-- the FBI did apparently find TS/SCIF level of material at Mar a Lago and since it had not yet been returned voluntarily, that's some high bar over which his counsel must try to haul their portly client to get him out of harm's way.

_We didn't realize?  We hadn't looked through all the boxes yet? Arrggh._​
Seems to me none of this works, because stuff at that level shouldn't even have been taken to Florida to begin with.  It's not material you can leave sitting on a desk when you go home at night, if it's stuff you can only read while sitting in a SCIF anyway.


----------



## Cmaier

And we’re up to 39 items on the docket. Still nothing from the gov’t on the meet-and-confer.


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> And we’re up to 39 items on the docket. Still nothing from the gov’t on the meet-and-confer.




There's a 3pm deadline for word on results of that meeting?  I mean for reporting results to the judge?


----------



## Cmaier

lizkat said:


> There's a 3pm deadline for word on results of that meeting?  I mean for reporting results to the judge?



Yep.


----------



## Eric

Seems like the cat's out of the bag anyway but will be interesting to see the official release.

Domestic terrorists are gathering and radicalizing on Truth Social, something needs to be done about this before they start killing people.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Eric said:


> Seems like the cat's out of the bag anyway but will be interesting to see the official release.
> 
> Domestic terrorists are gathering and radicalizing on Truth Social, something needs to be done about this before they start killing people.



TikTok too. These people are dangerous
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557138184563314690/


----------



## Cmaier

Still nothing. Judge may get cranky that the attorneys didn’t meet the deadline.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Cmaier said:


> And of course now the magas on social media are saying it was a false flag and he was a plant.




These people are beyond predictable.

Ah, the return of using Obama’s middle name. Trump is desperate. He’s already projecting and trying to change the narrative, using the “I can declassify whatever I felt like” excuse.


----------



## lizkat

Looks like the warrant's in the hands of the press, Politico sez filing story soon


​


----------



## Cmaier

National Archives responds to Trump’s lies about Obama.  Says they transferred stuff to facility where Obama’s library will be, and Obama didn’t take anything - it’s all under control of National Archives and not classified.


----------



## Cmaier

NYT saw warrant and it listed some crimes being investigated.  https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/0...says-release-the-documents-now?smid=url-share


----------



## shadow puppet

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558164816576929792/


----------



## Cmaier

Finally filed. Trump does not object to release.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Cmaier said:


> Finally filed. Trump does not object to release.



I think he was backed into a corner on this with no way out. About time.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Here's my prediction.  In the grander scheme of Trump World this warrant will be a nothing burger, but the main reason Trump is hesitating is because he wants to continue to advertise it as the most politically motivated and corrupt hitjob that an American has ever experienced in all of US history.  He's nothing without being the world's biggest victim.


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> NYT saw warrant and it listed some crimes being investigated.  https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/0...says-release-the-documents-now?smid=url-share




from Charles Savage in the NYT's running commentary



> Charles Savage
> 
> The search warrant for Trump’s residence cited three criminal laws, all from Title 18 of the United States Code. Section 793, better known as the Espionage Act, which covers the unlawful retention of defense-related information that could harm the United States or aid a foreign adversary; Section 1519, which covers destroying or concealing documents to obstruct government investigations or administrative proceedings; and Section 2071, which covers the unlawful removal of government records. Notably, none of those laws turn on whether information was deemed to be unclassified.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> Finally filed. Trump does not object to release.





Just so we can maintain the requisite drama can we insist it gets unsealed by Chris Rock and Will Smith?


----------



## Edd

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558165688706969602/


----------



## shadow puppet

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558173998432886787/


----------



## Cmaier

So he is being investigated, among other things, for 18 USC 1519.  https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1519

That means that the documents being sought had something to do with an on-going investigation, and there was probable cause to believe he was hiding the documents to hinder that investigation.

January 6?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> So he is being investigated, among other things, for 18 USC 1519.  https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1519
> 
> That means that the documents being sought had something to do with an on-going investigation, and there was probable cause to believe he was hiding the documents to hinder that investigation.
> 
> January 6?





My question is, why didn't he just destroy the documents?  It seems given his history he would easily get off with his "Oops, my bad" excuse.  No real reason for him to think otherwise.  

Maybe he should have stored them in the Connecticut house where the Warrens keep Annabelle and other cursed objects.


----------



## Renzatic

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> My question is, why didn't he just destroy the documents? It seems given his history he would easily get off with his "Oops, my bad" excuse. No real reason fo




Hell, that's just one of a billion questions. The most important one to me would be why he took them in the first place.


----------



## Cmaier

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> My question is, why didn't he just destroy the documents?  It seems given his history he would easily get off with his "Oops, my bad" excuse.  No real reason for him to think otherwise.
> 
> Maybe he should have stored them in the Connecticut house where the Warrens keep Annabelle and other cursed objects.



He very well MAY have destroyed at least some documents, and that would be covered by one of the listed statutes (18 USC 1519).  what they DID NOT retrieve may end up more important than what they did.


----------



## shadow puppet

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> My question is, why didn't he just destroy the documents?  It seems given his history he would easily get off with his "Oops, my bad" excuse.  No real reason for him to think otherwise.



Stonekettle has posted his thoughts and it's an interesting read.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558170100183826440/

Direct link to Stonekettle's article:





__





						Loose Lips Sink Ships
					

How can we expect another to keep our secret if we cannot keep it ourselves. – François de La Rochefoucauld , Maxims What did Trump take? Wh...




					www.stonekettle.com


----------



## Alli

lizkat said:


> I caught some reference in mainstream media to the Mar a Lago cams having been turned off during execution of the search at some point "for protection of the agents".  Didn't say when or for how long and I couldn't figure out what that even meant, since didn't have any context, and so I still don't really get it.   Maybe some are usually undercover or something on other cases in the south Florida area?  But I don't think anything that happened in the process, all the way from the warrant ask to completion of the search and deposit of the seized materials in the Miami field office was left to spur-of-moment thinking.   Too much at stake.



Meanwhile, Trump/Breitbart released the names of the FBI agents involved. So much for their protection.


----------



## shadow puppet

For those interested.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558180407434158081/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump is incriminating himself in Truth Social. I would hate to represent this shitshow clown.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Alli said:


> Meanwhile, Trump/Breitbart released the names of the FBI agents involved. So much for their protection.



as usual A POS to the end.


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> Trump is incriminating himself in Truth Social. I would hate to represent this shitshow clown.



nothing new there.


----------



## Renzatic

GermanSuplex said:


> Trump is incriminating himself in Truth Social. I would hate to represent this shitshow clown.




Got any pics?


----------



## lizkat

Renzatic said:


> Got any pics?



Yeah I'm sure not going to try to set up an account over there just to see what he's doing. Bad enough bumping into stuff that floats over to Twitter....  even when I have my feed locked down pretty well.  Twitter's algorithms to expand what may cross your eyeballs are so annoying.      I'd rather LOOK for certain material when I happen to be interested.


----------



## lizkat

There's more stuff than it sounded like to me earlier on.  Can't be accidental, eh?  A few loose papers? 

What an appalling situation.  Even knowing Trump as fast and loose with guidelines, norms, rules, laws...   this is just so far beyond the pale.  Behold a US President packing up on leaving-day.   Just...  mind blowing.


----------



## Citysnaps

(credit: KAL - The Economist)


----------



## Edd

lizkat said:


> There's more stuff than it sounded like to me earlier on.  Can't be accidental, eh?  A few loose papers?
> 
> What an appalling situation.  Even knowing Trump as fast and loose with guidelines, norms, rules, laws...   this is just so far beyond the pale.  Behold a US President packing up on leaving-day.   Just...  mind blowing.



Well, he was in an emotional place when he left office. An election had just been stolen from him. Now, HOW WOULD YOU FEEL, AMIRITE?!! It’s the same as taking a few pounds of dark roast after Starbucks fires you.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump is desperate and flailing. First, it was there was nothing there and they were cooperating, now it’s he declassified documents because he has the right to. Why would he take that shit home? What purpose was there - even if he did have an unadulterated right to take that stuff home? (Which he absolutely did not). Why not comply with the subpoena? Republicans said “Why didn’t they issue a subpoena and work with him?” THEY DID!

Trump tried to blame - as he put it - “Barrack Hussein Obama” - for doing the same. The National Archives clapped back at that lie. Obama is also a private citizen who can sue Trump for these lies, if Obama were a tenth as petty as Trump.

Lie, project, and lie. And because the National Archives debunked Trump’s lie, I’m sure the MAGAts will just say it’s more proof of EVERYONE being against Trump. They’re about a week away from blaming the janitors and people who service the Xerox machines from being “in on it”. When a disgruntled Trump cultist tries to shoot up the FBI, they claim it’s a staged event or a plant. Had it been a liberal, they’d just point and claim how dangerous liberals are. Nothing gets through to these folks.

For a guy who demanded Obama release his birth certificate but hid his tax returns, for a guy who went on and on about Hillary’s emails but kisses up to authoritarian regimes, takes their side over his own justice department and took tons of classified documents home to his golf club and defied subpoenas to return them, what more will it take for these folks to just admit they were taken by a stupid, self-serving and dangerous guy who doesn’t care about anything or anyone, least of all them or the USA, and move on?

All the republicans who refused to push back against Trump during his entire term, even when their own lives were put at risk, are equally as responsible as Trump.


----------



## lizkat

Edd said:


> Well, he was in an emotional place when he left office. An election had just been stolen from him. Now, HOW WOULD YOU FEEL, AMIRITE?!! It’s the same as taking a few pounds of dark roast after Starbucks fires you.




I rather think he was about putting the material to practical use sometime, or hoping to prevent someone else from putting that or other sensitive information to use against him...  maybe because he had lied publicly about something in there and a successor or other authorized reviewer could discover that and get him in trouble.

Who knows.   But it wasn't casual.  Some of the lower level "confidential" stuff might have been emotional, for sure.  The guy collects grudges and seems to treasure them as if they were diamonds and gold.

How the hell did he even get some of this other more sensitive material though.  In theory at least and generally in reported practice, one can't even take _*anything*_ in or out of a SCI facility when intending to read material at that level.   

So where does that level of material live when not being used?  In a safe somewhere, right?  Someone had control over retrieval for authorized usage.   Just so hard to imagine how Trump had managed to squirrel away all that stuff whether suddenly,  or one set of papers at a time. Not without some help, not the very sensitive stuff.  So does "the help" still work in WH security?  Were they who tipped off DoJ about info that would be missing, maybe after being caught or fearing being caught and so trying to get ahead of the curve of potential espionage charges?


----------



## Runs For Fun

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> My question is, why didn't he just destroy the documents?  It seems given his history he would easily get off with his "Oops, my bad" excuse.  No real reason for him to think otherwise.
> 
> Maybe he should have stored them in the Connecticut house where the Warrens keep Annabelle and other cursed objects.



Wouldn’t surprise me if he was saving them for some type of leverage in the future. Possibly could incriminate others.


----------



## Renzatic

lizkat said:


> I rather think he was about putting the material to practical use sometime, or hoping to prevent someone else from putting that or other sensitive information to use against him... maybe because he had lied publicly about something in there and a successor or other authorized reviewer could discover that and get him in trouble.




If I had to take a random stab at a guess, based upon absolutely nothing, I'd say he held on to these documents primarily for insurance. If the Jan. 6th investigation produced any criminal charges against him, he could always use the threat of leaking the info contained therein in an attempt to blackmail the government into looking the other way.

It's a shaky theory, undermined mostly by the fact that he didn't take any great effort to hide them, but it does fit his personality.



Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Wouldn’t surprise me if he was saving them for some type of leverage in the future. Possibly could incriminate others.




And this. Though it doesn't go so far as to explain why he'd choose to snatch up national defense documents on his way out of the White House.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Runs For Fun said:


> Wouldn’t surprise me if he was saving them for some type of leverage in the future. Possibly could incriminate others.





I thought of that but then I can't think of anything that also wouldn't incriminate himself too.


----------



## GermanSuplex

lizkat said:


> I rather think he was about putting the material to practical use sometime, or hoping to prevent someone else from putting that or other sensitive information to use against him...  maybe because he had lied publicly about something in there and a successor or other authorized reviewer could discover that and get him in trouble.
> 
> Who knows.   But it wasn't casual.  Some of the lower level "confidential" stuff might have been emotional, for sure.  The guy collects grudges and seems to treasure them as if they were diamonds and gold.
> 
> How the hell did he even get some of this other more sensitive material though.  In theory at least and generally in reported practice, one can't even take _*anything*_ in or out of a SCI facility when intending to read material at that level.
> 
> So where does that level of material live when not being used?  In a safe somewhere, right?  Someone had control over retrieval for authorized usage.   Just so hard to imagine how Trump had managed to squirrel away all that stuff whether suddenly,  or one set of papers at a time. Not without some help, not the very sensitive stuff.  So does "the help" still work in WH security?  Were they who tipped off DoJ about info that would be missing, maybe after being caught or fearing being caught and so trying to get ahead of the curve of potential espionage charges?




By all accounts from people who have worked with these documents, they're signed in and out, they're kept under lock and key. They don't just sit around in stacks with other papers around the White House. At least that's what people who have/had access to classified documents said in various interviews with the media over the last 48-72 hours.

I mean, even if you grant Trump the lie that he can declassify ANYTHING at will - even five minutes before he's on his way out the door on January 20, 2021 - what practical purpose does it serve? What interest is it in the country or its citizens? And even if he did have the right to do so, does it give him the right not to comply with a subpoena after the fact? Even if you grant Trump a few possibilities - which are all bullshit and lies, by the way - it STILL stinks to high heaven and makes no sense.

The only reason why he'd take that stuff to his country club, stash it there, and refuse to turn it over after all of this time, is for some personal benefit. Is he being blackmailed? Did he plan on blackmailing someone? Does it feed his sense of power? Did he plan to use it for financial gain? Is it just his ego, so he could sit around with foreign nationals and show them off? All of the above?

The lies Trump is telling to cover himself are so transparent and laughable that it truly stuns me that people buy into it. I mean, name dropping Obama and using a variation of his old "many people are saying" crap would be a hoot, if not for the fact people believe it.

_"President Barack Hussein Obama kept 33 million pages of documents, much of them classified," Trump wrote. "How many of them pertained to nuclear? Word is, lots!"_

A lie. He uses Obama's middle name as a pejorative, as conservatives have for the last fifteen years. Yeah, we get it, it sounds middle-eastern, harharhar... . And we already know you're a racist. Then there's the documents and amount - debunked by the National Archives. And "word is, lots!"... Who's word? What word? And when did Trump find this out? Am I to believe he knew this all along and kept quiet about it? Out of respect? Yeah.. that sounds like Trump.. just trying to show respect and love to the former president by keeping him out of trouble. But, if he did just find out this lie and he's just an oaf who really does believe its true, does he think it was wrong for Obama to do that? And if so, why the hell would he do the same thing, except worse?

None of his arguments hold up to the logic test or scrutiny. Republicans now have another opportunity to jump off the Trump train, but I don't expect that they will.


----------



## Citysnaps

When trump was in Russia in 2013 (and his son Don Jr. six times in 2008 pursuing deals) I wouldn't be shocked if they were being surveilled by Russian intelligence. And US intelligence as well.

With both intelligence agencies keeping tabs on their activities and people they met and talked to. I wouldn't be shocked if one or  more of the recently seized documents is an accounting of their activities while there.


----------



## lizkat

Renzatic said:


> use the threat of leaking the info contained therein




On the other hand the guy lies like a sieve leaks water, so.... whoever believes him does so at own peril.   That lesson has doubtless already circled the globe and we probably haven't heard the half of it. 

No one on the Republican side of the aisles in the Congress should be saying much of anything about Trump at the moment, past "let the investigations play out as they should under rule of law with all due process."    Otherwise more than egg will likely land on their faces in the weeks and months to come.

They're done anyway really. Or some of them should be.   These folks include Congressmen who participated in the coup to overturn their own sitting government on 1/6/21,  and Senators who refused to convict Trump after not one but two impeachments had been passed and presented to them with evidence and reasoned arguments for Trump's removal from office. 

What say them all now?   Cries of persecution? Hoaxes and planted evidence?    Really?  Meanwhile they don't know who has testified to what during depositions in the several investigations.   Risky and stupid!

It's no joke when the DoJ cites espionage law in pursuing a search warrant for a former president's residence.  They're not running a reality TV show.  They're in deadly earnest about protecting national interests


----------



## Eric

IMO Biden and the WH staying hands off is really smart, deferring all questions back to the DOJ, who has simply stated their piece and that's that. It seems less political this way and really, they shouldn't be involved with any DOJ decisions anyway.

Trump and Republicans can cry foul all they want but the DOJ clearly is not playing around here, they have all their ducks in a row and it's all pretty damning for Trump.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Jesse Watters show on Fox may be worse than Tucker Carlson’s. Truly insane stuff this evening. “Garland Treated Unibomber Better Than Trump”. “FBI Has History of Corruption” and stuff like that. Truly insane stuff. They are throwing so much stuff at the wall right now, no coherent argument whatsoever. Like, their gaslighting and lies usually at least has some sort of common theme to it. They have none of that going for them right now, it’s just not nonstop smears, lies and misinformation with no theme or common thread.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> Jesse Watters show on Fox may be worse than Tucker Carlson’s. Truly insane stuff this evening. “Garland Treated Unibomber Better Than Trump”. “FBI Has History of Corruption” and stuff like that. Truly insane stuff. They are throwing so much stuff at the wall right now, no coherent argument whatsoever. Like, their gaslighting and lies usually at least has some sort of common theme to it. They have none of that going for them right now, it’s just not nonstop smears, lies and misinformation with no theme or common thread.




Desparation.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Brian Kilmeade filling in for Tuckems last night…. He posted a fake picture of the judge who signed off on the warrant being given a foot massage by Ghislaine Maxwell. The picture was a meme, totally fabricated. He’s been receiving death threats and worse. So Kilmeade posted a correction… on Twitter.

I’d like to see a major news network play of Kilmeade acting like an idiot on Fox - a real one, there’s plenty of them after all - followed up with a pic of him ”pleasuring” a smiling Hunter Biden. Then they can post a worthless retraction on Twitter.

https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/fox-news-kilmeade-showed-judges-meme-jest-88316910

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558177615663464448/


----------



## mac_in_tosh

GermanSuplex said:


> Jesse Watters show on Fox may be worse than Tucker Carlson’s. Truly insane stuff this evening. “Garland Treated Unibomber Better Than Trump”. “FBI Has History of Corruption” and stuff like that. Truly insane stuff. They are throwing so much stuff at the wall right now, no coherent argument whatsoever.



I encourage people to make up an anonymous Google account and leave comments on Fox News videos calling out their b.s. If even a little doubt is raised in the minds of the people who believe Fox it may be helpful. Right now all they hear is this kind of utter nonsense and 99% of the comments appear to be in agreement with it.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> I’d like to see a major news network [ ... ]




I'd like to see the fricken FCC decide Fox has crossed some sort of line, god knows what.   Anything.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558125214155907074/



Reminds me of the Republican Congressman who said the Jan. 6 rioters were just normal tourists.


----------



## Edd

GermanSuplex said:


> Brian Kilmeade filling in for Tuckems last night…. He posted a fake picture of the judge who signed off on the warrant being given a foot massage by Ghislaine Maxwell. The picture was a meme, totally fabricated. He’s been receiving death threats and worse. So Kilmeade posted a correction… on Twitter.
> 
> I’d like to see a major news network play of Kilmeade acting like an idiot on Fox - a real one, there’s plenty of them after all - followed up with a pic of him ”pleasuring” a smiling Hunter Biden. Then they can post a worthless retraction on Twitter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fox News' Kilmeade says he showed judge's meme 'in jest'
> 
> 
> Fox News' Brian Kilmeade says he showed a doctored photo of the judge who signed the warrant approving the FBI search warrant of former President Donald Trump's estate ‘in jest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558177615663464448/



Some of the comments ripping apart his tweet are:


----------



## lizkat

Sounds like even the Fox c-suite realizes there's a line mighta got crossed on that one.


----------



## Edd

lizkat said:


> I'd like to see the fricken FCC decide Fox has crossed some sort of line, god knows what.   Anything.



Thing is, Kilmeade was guest hosting and I’d bet he had very little to do with that pic; it’s almost certainly the, um, creative talent on this “news” show.


----------



## lizkat

Edd said:


> Thing is, Kilmeade was guest hosting and I’d bet he had very little to do with that pic; it’s almost certainly the, um, creative talent on this “news” show.




Yeah that's exactly what some Florida Fox outlet said once in 2009 after they had bollixed a map of the Middle East put up during a discussion of news in the region.   _The graphics crew messed up._

Or that was the excuse they used after there was some backlash against their first reaction,  which had run to "nothing in our license says we have to broadcast only factual information".    The map in question labeled Iraq as Egypt and then, uh... let's see, uh...  left all of North Africa blank because... hmm...  so hard to remember where all those foreign places are and how much could it matter for a 10-second graphic.


----------



## lizkat

mac_in_tosh said:


> Reminds me of the Republican Congressman who said the Jan. 6 rioters were just normal tourists.




Re: "already nuclear info on the internet."  Yeah the Rs are just throwing pasta on the wall now.

Wake me up when they get to the part about how Daniel Boone foresaw this shocking and unpatriotic attack on another real pioneer.

These guys need to take a moment to think about the effect on the country of their abusive free speech being vented in the service of a guy who is not even worth their allegiance.

But, sigh...  the airwaves and the net will be filled with their panicky trash all weekend.

Still waiting for signs of rats jumping ship _en masse_.  Someone important has to go first, I guess.  Looks like they'll end up drawing straws or getting selected by DoJ as some of them dodge subpoenas or finally decide to cooperate and get right with the Constitution.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> Brian Kilmeade filling in for Tuckems last night…. He posted a fake picture of the judge who signed off on the warrant being given a foot massage by Ghislaine Maxwell. The picture was a meme, totally fabricated. He’s been receiving death threats and worse. So Kilmeade posted a correction… on Twitter.
> 
> I’d like to see a major news network play of Kilmeade acting like an idiot on Fox - a real one, there’s plenty of them after all - followed up with a pic of him ”pleasuring” a smiling Hunter Biden. Then they can post a worthless retraction on Twitter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fox News' Kilmeade says he showed judge's meme 'in jest'
> 
> 
> Fox News' Brian Kilmeade says he showed a doctored photo of the judge who signed the warrant approving the FBI search warrant of former President Donald Trump's estate ‘in jest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558177615663464448/




In jest? Right...

In my world that would be called a lie.


----------



## Roller

What we don't know is how much damage has already been done by having Top Secret documents at Mar-a-Lago.

If someone had told me in 2016 what would happen during and after the Trump administration, I would have thought they were, well, crazy. I expected he would be a horrible president, but nowhere near as damaging to the country as he turned out to be. I sometimes wonder how we would have fared had Trump succumbed to COVID in 2020, which he almost did. Would Pence have been re-elected, eliminating the possibility of passing some of the landmark legislation we've had under Biden?


----------



## Yoused

Roller said:


> I sometimes wonder how we would have fared had Trump succumbed to COVID in 2020, which he almost did.



Imagine if Joe had still beaten Pence, and there would be no VP to preside over the EV count.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Roller said:


> If someone had told me in 2016 what would happen during and after the Trump administration, I would have thought they were, well, crazy. I expected he would be a horrible president, but nowhere near as damaging to the country as he turned out to be.




If you had told me the GOP would become a cult beholden to a c-list celebrity like Trump, I’d have thought the same. It still seems surreal to me. Don’t count the My Pillow guy out just yet, he may pick up the baton once Trump is gone.


----------



## lizkat

Roller said:


> What we don't know is how much damage has already been done by having Top Secret documents at Mar-a-Lago.
> 
> If someone had told me in 2016 what would happen during and after the Trump administration, I would have thought they were, well, crazy. I expected he would be a horrible president, but nowhere near as damaging to the country as he turned out to be. I sometimes wonder how we would have fared had Trump succumbed to COVID in 2020, which he almost did. Would Pence have been re-elected, eliminating the possibility of passing some of the landmark legislation we've had under Biden?



Well... just judging from what Trump's base has seemed to think of Mike Pence, he and we are all very, very lucky Trump survived covid.  Imagine the conspiracy theories that would have run around the ascension of Pence to the presidency that still "belonged" to Donald Trump at that time.  Good grief.  The guy might have been assassinated for just getting sworn into the office he was required to assume in event of the then president's demise or incapacity to continue in office.   There are some real wing nut Trump cultists out there (along with some savvy Trump-using extremists with their own agendas) and they didn't just hatch out when the 1/6 insurrection occurred after Trump's re-election bid failed.


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558206961929314304/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558206961929314304/




She’s working hard to drain the swamp and clean up the deep state. Problem is, we already know who runs the swamp and the deep state…


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558103242839564289/


----------



## fooferdoggie

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558206961929314304/



really someone needs to clean the grease off that old axle. She is so partisan it's hard to even comprehend how she can accuse others of it. so homey impeachment acts has she filed so far? trump could have sold all our nuclear secrets to Russia on eBay and she would defend him.


----------



## LIVEFRMNYC

"Chair of the Lunatic Caucus". 
OMG . I       so hard at that.


----------



## AG_PhamD

I still think there is wayyyy to much speculation going on on both sides of the isle, though based on the charges and some unofficial information (classified nuclear documents) this is looking more serious than just the government trying to retrieve some documents. The warranted and seizure list really doesn’t say much. What we really need to see is the FBI affidavit stating the evidence justifying the search warrant.

First, if the documents were indeed declassified that would presumably blow this whole case up as the warrant application would have relevant omitted information. That said, Trump can’t just declare declassification like Michael Scott (and Alex Jones) declaring bankruptcy. There is a process that must occur. This could surely become a mess if Trump defense claims this is just all one big clerical error.

That said, if the reporting about Trump being in possession of classified nuclear information is correct… that would be very hard to justify and raises the question why such documents would be declassified or removed and would be highly incriminating. So I am a little skeptical to the accuracy of this reporting- are they technical documents or strategy related or is it something else classified that mentions unclassified nuclear info. I guess we’ll see… or maybe never.

Another concern that could potentially feed into the Trump prosecution narrative is just how open ended the search warrant was. It’s my understanding they could basically search anywhere Trump and his team operated and could seize any government documents from his time in office. This will surely feed into the fishing expedition talking point.

I could care less about the connection with lawyer representing Epstein employees, now judge/magistrate that signed off on the warrant- who btw despite internet myth was not appointed by Trump and that’s not even how that works. I do think it doesn’t look good that he had previously refused himself in another Trump case.

There is also a lot of comparison to the Clinton email scandal. Clinton did have top secret documents on her email server and destroyed allegedly another 30,000 off the server as well as cell phones. Possessing classified data is one thing and running an email server presumably to avoid oversight is one thing, there have been others in the past who have done this and I will say it does not look good. Destroying evidence while you’re being investigated is another thing entirely. So that’s not helping the DOJ here. Though I think it’s fair to make an argument the raid to retrieve evidence was justified based on the so called mistakes made in the Clinton case.

I am all for holding people accountable and equal application of the law. At this time I’m not convinced of some sort of conspiracy in this case. The Trump statements claiming the FBI could have planted documents sounds very desperate to me and raises my suspicions. So does the claims from Trump they did not get a copy of the warrant or seizure list when apparently they did indeed- seems awfully manipulative. But I also think there are some DOJ/FBI decisions here that aren’t exactly helping the DOJ’s appearance of objectivity.

TLDR- I see this as having a high potential of getting very messy, further dividing the country and eroding the country’s faith in institutions more than has already occurred in recent time.

In other news, this Bill Maher clip of what was in Trump’s safe is absolutely hilarious. I find most Trump jokes overused at this point and all to often based on blatant hatred than actual humor, but this is a great exception.





The receipt for Melania and the deed to Rudy Giuliani’s soul had me LOLing.


----------



## Huntn

This is the POS who took the fifth in New York. Now here is what could be the nail that puts Donny away if you can find a jury not containing Orange Koolaid drinkers, mishandling classified material that is compartmented is above Top Secret. It is considered so important as to jeopardize the security of the United States if it falls into the wrong hands.. It‘s kept in secure, classified spaces, and it is a felony to remove it without permission.

Trump says he could declassify anything classified, the issue here is that there are procedures for this, he can’t just snap his fingers or verbally bless classified material as no longer classified to declassify them.

What  he did is a violation of the Espionage Act, a 10 year felony. Wait for the cries of _but he didn’t mean it, or realize!! _ I guarantee you that if an enlisted man or office found himself in this situation, they would be seeing jail time.









						Trump under investigation for potential violations of Espionage Act, warrant reveals
					

Details contained in explosive search warrant show US officials investigating whether three criminal statutes violated




					www.theguardian.com
				








__





						Trumpworld's usual tricks aren't working this time
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## Citysnaps

I suspect some of those documents would have enormous value to other countries. And with that, monetary value. Wouldn't be shocked if trump believed that somehow those documents were _his_ property (just because he was prez at one time) and could be sold to countries interested in them sometime in the future.

Why else would he hold onto them?  He's not a student of history.  The other possibility is they might contain embarrassing information.


----------



## Huntn

mac_in_tosh said:


> Reminds me of the Republican Congressman who said the Jan. 6 rioters were just normal tourists.



i never thought I’d witness the self destruction of this major political party. Could this be symptomatic of the destruction of the USA as a coherent nation?

This is today’s _End Justifies The Means_ Republikans, the Party of Amateur Liars. The benefit of being an amateur, is that when your base is full of STUPID, the bar for competency is really low. Just about anything they pull out of their asses is swallowed without question while marveling about the sweet aroma.


----------



## lizkat

citypix said:


> I suspect some of those documents would have enormous value to other countries. And with that, monetary value. Wouldn't be shocked if trump believed that somehow those documents were _his_ property (just because he was prez at one time) and could be sold to countries interested in them sometime in the future.
> 
> Why else would he hold onto them?  He's not a student of history.  The other possibility is they might contain embarrassing information.




What I don't get is how he managed to export entire sets of documents with highest levels of sensitivity.  It's not like they could have been left lying around in desk drawers.   Security must have been involved in their removal somehow.  Surely that angle is being pursued in the course of DoJ's investigation.


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> What I don't get is how he managed to export entire sets of documents with highest levels of sensitivity.  It's not like they could have been left lying around in desk drawers.   Security must have been involved in their removal somehow.  Surely that angle is being pursued in the course of DoJ's investigation.




Yeah, that's puzzling.   My guess is the documents were checked out to him. And he "never got around to returning them."

I believe I read the National Archive has been asking for them back for awhile.  Rules are for other people, apparently.


----------



## lizkat

citypix said:


> Yeah, that's puzzling.   My guess is the documents were checked out to him. And he "never got around to returning them."
> 
> I believe I read the National Archive has been asking for them back for awhile.  Rules are for other people, apparently.




I feel [reasonably enough!]  short on facts about the workings of how some supersensitive documents are released for review by a president even while in the oval office.

Can a prez just say something like "get me everything we know about Pakistan's nukes and the backstory of our past agreements to help secure their stuff against rogues, I want it all on my desk by 2pm.'    Are there copies left behind in case he spills ketchup or a latte on them?

EDIT:   seems absurd, doesn't it?   After all you hit nail on head with this remark:



citypix said:


> He's not a student of history.


----------



## Alli

Runs For Fun said:


> Wouldn’t surprise me if he was saving them for some type of leverage in the future. Possibly could incriminate others.




What makes anyone think he hasn’t already shared or SOLD some of those documents?


----------



## Alli

citypix said:


> In jest? Right...
> 
> In my world that would be called a lie.



The problem with that is a jest requires a sense of humor, something they all lack entirely. If they say something, take it on face value.


citypix said:


> I believe I read the National Archive has been asking for them back for awhile. Rules are for other people, apparently.



From what I understand they’ve made the request at least twice. Both times TFG returned a few things…but not everything.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Regardless of whether Trump had an unadulterated right to declassify the documents, that doesn’t give him the right to defy a subpoena for the documents afterwards. Again, he didn’t have a right to just declassify virtually everything just by snapping his fingers. But even if he did, you can’t defy a subpoena. This isn’t a congressional subpoena, this was a federal subpoena issued by the justice department.

Even if Trump doesn’t face serious consequences for this - and I believe he will - don’t be gaslit by the conservatives. If this goes to court, Trump is going to lose, and lose big. It’s not merely the fact he took this stuff home, it’s also how he defied the legal subpoena for months. His loud mouth and flailing on Truth Social and in the media is also blowing up his potential defenses, and his lawyer is doing herself no favors by giving interviews to Fox News.

And this is all assuming there’s nothing incriminating WITHIN those documents, or other laws weren’t broken we don’t yet know about. Who helped Trump get these documents home? Again, they don’t just sit around on the Oval Office desk. Who failed to keep them secure? Who was the informant?

This is bad for Trump AT BEST.


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> What makes anyone think he hasn’t already shared or SOLD some of those documents?




Depending on what the specific material is,  selling it or otherwise trying to leverage it to his personal advantage could be very risky when the data transfer becomes more widely known.   No deal, no secret shared with anyone is invulnerable to wider revelation.

But risk apparently means nothing to Trump.  He rolls the dice and figures lawyers can fix any problems.

So far he's been right on the latter score.   But, withholding sensitive material that he should not have exported from the White House and that is subject to handling rules ASIDE from those just related to classification is a whole other ballgame.    If some of that material relates to nuclear secrets then it would seem that he's really in a lot of trouble.


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> But risk apparently means nothing to Trump. He rolls the dice and figures lawyers can fix any problems.




And apparently without a care in the world and not losing a bit of sleep.  Must be nice (not really).


----------



## lizkat

citypix said:


> And apparently without a care in the world and not losing a bit of sleep.  Must be nice (not really).




Lot of denial and massive compartmentalization going on in his head, I guess.  And probably some prescribed drugs.  But his preoccupations so often overwhelm him:  those rambling rally speeches and the campaign-era "responses" to questions during editorial board interviews with mainstream media, wow.     

His obsessions are myriad.   From all casual memoirs revealed to us so far,  he drove his staffers nuts when they were trying to get him to focus on the tasks then at hand, on any day when he'd already been triggered somehow into pulling some pet peeve out of his treasure box.

He must be pure hell to manage as a legal client.  All they can do though is take the money and try to remember how not to get disbarred in the process of resisting his Pied Piper ways of taking just about anyone down rabbit holes they couldn't have imagined half an hour prior to sitting down with him.


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> Regardless of whether Trump had an unadulterated right to declassify the documents, that doesn’t give him the right to defy a subpoena for the documents afterwards. Again, he didn’t have a right to just declassify virtually everything just by snapping his fingers. But even if he did, you can’t defy a subpoena. This isn’t a congressional subpoena, this was a federal subpoena issued by the justice department.



he can't just snap his fingers to do it. there is a process and the documents would be stamped saying they are de classified. I love the whoops the GOP are jumping through to justify this when they went apeshit about HC's emails its amazing really.


----------



## Roller

AG_PhamD said:


> I still think there is wayyyy to much speculation going on on both sides of the isle, though based on the charges and some unofficial information (classified nuclear documents) this is looking more serious than just the government trying to retrieve some documents. The warranted and seizure list really doesn’t say much. What we really need to see is the FBI affidavit stating the evidence justifying the search warrant.
> 
> First, if the documents were indeed declassified that would presumably blow this whole case up as the warrant application would have relevant omitted information. That said, Trump can’t just declare declassification like Michael Scott (and Alex Jones) declaring bankruptcy. There is a process that must occur. This could surely become a mess if Trump defense claims this is just all one big clerical error.
> 
> That said, if the reporting about Trump being in possession of classified nuclear information is correct… that would be very hard to justify and raises the question why such documents would be declassified or removed and would be highly incriminating. So I am a little skeptical to the accuracy of this reporting- are they technical documents or strategy related or is it something else classified that mentions unclassified nuclear info. I guess we’ll see… or maybe never.
> 
> Another concern that could potentially feed into the Trump prosecution narrative is just how open ended the search warrant was. It’s my understanding they could basically search anywhere Trump and his team operated and could seize any government documents from his time in office. This will surely feed into the fishing expedition talking point.
> 
> I could care less about the connection with lawyer representing Epstein employees, now judge/magistrate that signed off on the warrant- who btw despite internet myth was not appointed by Trump and that’s not even how that works. I do think it doesn’t look good that he had previously refused himself in another Trump case.
> 
> There is also a lot of comparison to the Clinton email scandal. Clinton did have top secret documents on her email server and destroyed allegedly another 30,000 off the server as well as cell phones. Possessing classified data is one thing and running an email server presumably to avoid oversight is one thing, there have been others in the past who have done this and I will say it does not look good. Destroying evidence while you’re being investigated is another thing entirely. So that’s not helping the DOJ here. Though I think it’s fair to make an argument the raid to retrieve evidence was justified based on the so called mistakes made in the Clinton case.
> 
> I am all for holding people accountable and equal application of the law. At this time I’m not convinced of some sort of conspiracy in this case. The Trump statements claiming the FBI could have planted documents sounds very desperate to me and raises my suspicions. So does the claims from Trump they did not get a copy of the warrant or seizure list when apparently they did indeed- seems awfully manipulative. But I also think there are some DOJ/FBI decisions here that aren’t exactly helping the DOJ’s appearance of objectivity.
> 
> TLDR- I see this as having a high potential of getting very messy, further dividing the country and eroding the country’s faith in institutions more than has already occurred in recent time.
> 
> In other news, this Bill Maher clip of what was in Trump’s safe is absolutely hilarious. I find most Trump jokes overused at this point and all to often based on blatant hatred than actual humor, but this is a great exception.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The receipt for Melania and the deed to Rudy Giuliani’s soul had me LOLing.



Most of us will never know the details, nor should we. To the extent the documents themselves or even just the supporting affidavit reveal what the government knows and suggest how that information was obtained, disclosure could cause significant harm. The DOJ is also constrained by the rules around criminal investigations, especially if a Grand Jury is involved.

We are way past the point where "optics" should guide what the DOJ does for fear of riling up Trump's supporters or contributing to erosion of faith in institutions. People like Ricky W. Shiffer, who attacked the FBI office in Cincinnati, won't be appeased or convinced no matter what.

I don't see how Hillary Clinton's email debacle — and I'll readily admit she made some horrible choices — can be rightfully compared to what Trump is alleged to have done, without considering the overall context of their records. Like her or hate her, Clinton was a public servant who wasn't accused of willfully providing sensitive national security information to our adversaries, not to mention the almost endless litany of harmful actions Trump took during his tenure.


----------



## GermanSuplex

lizkat said:


> Lot of denial and massive compartmentalization going on in his head, I guess.  And probably some prescribed drugs.  But his preoccupations so often overwhelm him:  those rambling rally speeches and the campaign-era "responses" to questions during editorial board interviews with mainstream media, wow.
> 
> His obsessions are myriad.   From all casual memoirs revealed to us so far,  he drove his staffers nuts when they were trying to get him to focus on the tasks then at hand, on any day when he'd already been triggered somehow into pulling some pet peeve out of his treasure box.
> 
> He must be pure hell to manage as a legal client.  All they can do though is take the money and try to remember how not to get disbarred in the process of resisting his Pied Piper ways of taking just about anyone down rabbit holes they couldn't have imagined half an hour prior to sitting down with him.




Look at Rudy… a former big-time federal prosecutor for the SDNY and mayor of the biggest city in America. He knows better. He’s got himself banned from practicing law and now is just as crazy as Trump. Michael Flynn, John Eastman…

These aren’t idiots. They didn’t get to where they are by being stupid; that came after being drawn into Trump’s orbit.

It has to be a combination of gaining power by being close to the president, their ego and belief that white collar crime - at least when perpetrated by _them - _isn’t criminal. Who knows what goes on in their mind, but it’s way beyond the usual political games of semantics and war of words.

And each time Trump has been given a pass, even for things that aren’t criminal but just deplorable in general - whether it’s his mishandling of COVID and not supporting people like his justice department or impartial figures like Dr. Fauci, refusing to do anything to bring people together but denigrating minorities, unveiling sensitive info to Russians and always praising authoritarian leaders, hiring his unqualified family members as White House advisors, letting scum like Bannon and Miller onto the taxpayer-funded payrolls… why wouldn’t Trump think he can get away with this?

Hell, when Trump turns on Fox News and sees them disparaging the FBI and treating his crimes as if it’s routine presidential business, when he sees Newsmax and OAN exist almost solely as tribute channels to himself, and he sees rank and file conservative members of congress trip over each other to defend his actions and disparage the DoJ _*before they even know what those actions are, *_it’s no wonder he continues pushing the boundaries of norms, ethics and laws.

Trump crossed the threshold from celebrity who did a good job hiding his stupidity to narcissist, racist moron sometime during the Obama administration, and by the 2016 primaries it was clear to the rest of the world he was a buffoon who was unfit to serve and would probably commit every bad act under the sun and abuse his office any way he saw fit.

Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio and Lindsey Graham had Trump pegged exactly right when they were running against him, but that was fleeting truth to benefit themselves. Once their opportunity was gone, they quickly fell in line. Mitt Romney tried to warn the party, but even his backbone is brittle at best. Rand Paul and Cruz have shown their libertarian facades were just that - facades. They’re just MAGA cultists masquerading as constitutional conservatives. If Trump wanted to take people’s guns by military force they’d walk back everything they’ve ever said about the second amendment.

All this is to say, we have watched the GOP transform into a cult over the last decade or so. The good thing is, cults almost always self-destruct and become victims of their own making. I fully expect that to happen here.

It’s funny that Trump has done the same things he accuses mobs of doing. And just like mobs in real life, or in the movies, they have a good run, then end with people turning on each other, having a mole in their midst, being raided by the FBI…

What we are witnessing is a political/white collar version of Casino or Goodfellas.



fooferdoggie said:


> he can't just snap his fingers to do it. there is a process and the documents would be stamped saying they are de classified. I love the whoops the GOP are jumping through to justify this when they went apeshit about HC's emails its amazing really.




Absolutely. I only use the theoreticals to point out that even if you grant Trump some of the arguments he’ll try to make, it doesn’t absolve him. It’s like saying the bank made a huge error and wiped out thousands of dollars in my savings account, when they didn’t, and using the excuse to rob their vault at gunpoint. Even if they made an error, that doesn’t give me the right to rob them. The fact that there is no proof such an error exists makes my robbery that much worse. This is Trump’s case - his ability to declassify certain things doesn’t make it happen by that virtue alone, and even if it did, it doesn’t grant him the right to hide documents and defy federal subpoenas.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> Trump crossed the threshold from celebrity who did a good job hiding his stupidity to narcissist, racist moron sometime during the Obama administration, and by the 2016 primaries it was clear to the rest of the world he was a buffoon who was unfit to serve and would probably commit every bad act under the sun and abuse his office any way he saw fit.



This.  And yet here we are, whole planet still paying a price for allowing this guy's fans to steamroll anything that may remain of the Republican Party's sense of ethics or care for rule of law in the national interest.

It's so far apparently still all about "don't rock the boat with this guy before we can maybe retake the House in November."

Man, my mind doesn't even want to go down the road of imagining how the House Freedom Caucus will behave if the Rs do retake the majority in that chamber in the midterms.

But meanwhile I bumped into this cartoon that just made me laugh out loud.     MIke Twohy, back in the September 17, 2012 issue of The New Yorker:


----------



## Alli

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558484628893474817/


----------



## Cmaier

A good analysis of the details of the receipts, and why they support my theory that the “obstruction”  law is pretty important and probably has to do with january 6.









						Obstruction: The Two-Receipt Search of the Former President's Golf Resort - emptywheel
					

The big secret Trump was keeping this week was not, as I thought, that he is under investigation for violating the Espionage Act, but instead that because he refused to turn over classified documents the Archives knew he had, he gave FBI urgent reason to come and also get evidence he obstructed...




					www.emptywheel.net


----------



## Cmaier

And a couple of MAGA-turdlets may also be in trouble:









						John Solomon and Kash Patel May Be Implicated in the FBI's Trump-Related Espionage Act Investigation - emptywheel
					

If Donald Trump let Kash Patel and John Solomon sort through boxes that--the FBI discovered--included Top Secret documents, Trump may have additional liability under the Espionage Act.




					www.emptywheel.net


----------



## GermanSuplex

Alli said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558484628893474817/




I wonder if this is the same lawyer who’s been flailing on Fox as much as Trump - the same one who let slip Trump had a better view of the raid from New York than she did, and who admitted on TV she hadn’t discussed with Trump whether he did or didn’t possess documents pertaining to nuclear information.

Both of those statements will come back to bite them on any potential Trump defenses.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Get these domestic terrorists 








						FBI investigating 'unprecedented' number of threats against bureau in wake of Mar-a-Lago search
					

The FBI is investigating an "unprecedented" number of threats against bureau personnel and property in the wake of the search of Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort, including against agents listed in court records as being involved in the search, a law enforcement source tells CNN.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## mac_in_tosh

GermanSuplex said:


> Jesse Watters show on Fox may be worse than Tucker Carlson’s. Truly insane stuff this evening. “Garland Treated Unibomber Better Than Trump”. “FBI Has History of Corruption” and stuff like that. Truly insane stuff. They are throwing so much stuff at the wall right now, no coherent argument whatsoever. Like, their gaslighting and lies usually at least has some sort of common theme to it. They have none of that going for them right now, it’s just not nonstop smears, lies and misinformation with no theme or common thread.



Can someone please explain to me what these Fox people are doing right now. Do they not care at all that they are tearing the country apart with their outrageous claims? What is their motivation? It's one thing to be conservative but with Trump they have someone who incited an actual violent attack on the Capitol in order to seize power and who now is found to have illegally removed highly classified documents from the White House jeopardizing the national security. And yet they still support him and are instead attacking the DOJ and FBI.

They were okay with his ignorance, his compulsive lying and moral bankruptcy, but Is there no threshold beyond which they won't go? Is Rupert Murdoch enjoying watching the turmoil and laughing all the way to the bank knowing he can return to Australia if things get really bad here? Are these Fox hosts stupid enough to really believe their nonsense, and if not why are they doing it? They could easily walk away from Trump and put their support behind DeSantis or someone else of like mind.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

I don't know if this has been posted yet:

Fox News On Hillary But Make The Footage Trump | The Daily Show


----------



## Roller

mac_in_tosh said:


> Can someone please explain to me what these Fox people are doing right now. Do they not care at all that they are tearing the country apart with their outrageous claims? What is their motivation? It's one thing to be conservative but with Trump they have someone who incited an actual violent attack on the Capitol in order to seize power and who now is found to have illegally removed highly classified documents from the White House jeopardizing the national security. And yet they still support him and are instead attacking the DOJ and FBI.
> 
> They were okay with his ignorance, his compulsive lying and moral bankruptcy, but Is there no threshold beyond which they won't go? Is Rupert Murdoch enjoying watching the turmoil and laughing all the way to the bank knowing he can return to Australia if things get really bad here? Are these Fox hosts stupid enough to really believe their nonsense, and if not why are they doing it? They could easily walk away from Trump and put their support behind DeSantis or someone else of like mind.



I doubt most Fox hosts truly believe what they're saying, though much of their audience does. They're in it for the money, and perhaps the recognition from Trump and his supporters. Their wealth has largely shielded them from the consequences of their actions. Like most of the Republican party, hypocrisy means nothing to them — remember when they decried vaccination mandates at the same time their company required them?


----------



## Cmaier

AG_PhamD said:


> First, if the documents were indeed declassified that would presumably blow this whole case up as the warrant application would have relevant omitted information. That said, Trump can’t just declare declassification like Michael Scott (and Alex Jones) declaring bankruptcy. There is a process that must occur. This could surely become a mess if Trump defense claims this is just all one big clerical error.




Guilt under any of the three statutes listed on the warrant does not depend on whether or not the documents were classified. None of the three criminal statutes mention document classification at all. 

Even if there are additional statutes mentioned in the affidavit that do require classification, what Trump does with one hand Biden can undo with the other.  By the time the DoJ subpoenaed the documents they surely would have been “reclassified,” and Trump refusing to return them would then still be chargeable under these other statutes.




> That said, if the reporting about Trump being in possession of classified nuclear information is correct… that would be very hard to justify and raises the question why such documents would be declassified or removed and would be highly incriminating. So I am a little skeptical to the accuracy of this reporting- are they technical documents or strategy related or is it something else classified that mentions unclassified nuclear info. I guess we’ll see… or maybe never.




Additionally, there is some evidence that the supposedly “declassified” documents were being treated with at least a little security - locked up, etc.  This is evidence Trump knew these were not declassified documents.




> Another concern that could potentially feed into the Trump prosecution narrative is just how open ended the search warrant was. It’s my understanding they could basically search anywhere Trump and his team operated and could seize any government documents from his time in office. This will surely feed into the fishing expedition talking point.




That is a standard search warrant. It specified a time range for the documents, the types of documents to be seized, and specified that they could be seized from wherever they were stored. There would be no other way to draft a search warrant that would still be assured of retrieving these documents, many of which are apparently among the most sensitive types of documents the government has.




> I could care less about the connection with lawyer representing Epstein employees, now judge/magistrate that signed off on the warrant- who btw despite internet myth was not appointed by Trump and that’s not even how that works. I do think it doesn’t look good that he had previously refused himself in another Trump case.




The fact that he admitted to a possible appearance of conflict due to a Clinton relationship in a case involving Clinton does not mean there is a basis to recuse himself from a different matter that involves trump but does not involve Clinton.  




> There is also a lot of comparison to the Clinton email scandal. Clinton did have top secret documents on her email server and destroyed allegedly another 30,000 off the server as well as cell phones.




No, she is not alleged to have destroyed 30,000 top secret documents on her email server. 



> Possessing classified data is one thing and running an email server presumably to avoid oversight is one thing, there have been others in the past who have done this and I will say it does not look good. Destroying evidence while you’re being investigated is another thing entirely. So that’s not helping the DOJ here. Though I think it’s fair to make an argument the raid to retrieve evidence was justified based on the so called mistakes made in the Clinton case.




Who presumes she used a private server “to avoid oversight?”


----------



## AG_PhamD

Roller said:


> Most of us will never know the details, nor should we. To the extent the documents themselves or even just the supporting affidavit reveal what the government knows and suggest how that information was obtained, disclosure could cause significant harm. The DOJ is also constrained by the rules around criminal investigations, especially if a Grand Jury is involved.
> 
> We are way past the point where "optics" should guide what the DOJ does for fear of riling up Trump's supporters or contributing to erosion of faith in institutions. People like Ricky W. Shiffer, who attacked the FBI office in Cincinnati, won't be appeased or convinced no matter what.
> 
> I don't see how Hillary Clinton's email debacle — and I'll readily admit she made some horrible choices — can be rightfully compared to what Trump is alleged to have done, without considering the overall context of their records. Like her or hate her, Clinton was a public servant who wasn't accused of willfully providing sensitive national security information to our adversaries, not to mention the almost endless litany of harmful actions Trump took during his tenure.




I don’t expect we’ll know the details of the affidavit or precisely what documents were taken, or at least for quite some time. Then again our government tends to leak like sieve so who knows. 

I do think optics are important, at least to an extent. Obviously in some cases things are just unable to be avoided. And some of the issues I mentioned go beyond optics and fall into ethics and maintaining the integrity of the investigation (ie a magistrate who previously refused himself on a Trump case and has publicly made negative comments). I’m not a lawyer but that seems like a Pandora’s box. And I think optics are especially important if you don’t want another January 6th on our hands. 

To be clear the espionage act also included improper handling of government documents. AFAIK there is no public evidence Trump was planning on dealing in government secrets with foreign countries. Clinton was considered being charged under the espionage act. Would I put it past Trump to sell government secrets- sadly I wouldn’t be surprised. That’s what can happen when you elect a shady conman with zero moral compass and pathological narcissism.  I also wouldn’t be surprised if this was setup by the Trump administration as a ploy concocted to falsely lure the FBI into a fruitless investigation to appear unfairly prosecuted and distract from numerous his other problems- in which case it seems like fraud/conspiracy/perjury charges would be in order. 

Re: Hillary Politics aside (and to be clear I didn’t vote for either Trump or Clinton, they’re both swamp creatures), I do think there is a serious problem with running your own email server to conduct government business and then destroying evidence during an investigation. And let’s not forget the potential of foreign influence via the Clinton Foundation, which thankfully and rightfully Clinton eventually suspended donations from during her campaign. People love to take sides based on political tribalism and not  but the reality is if you or I did that we’d probably have been prosecuted. If I did similar things with medical records at a minimum I’d be out of a job, fined into bankruptcy, and probably lose my license. 
All that’s to say Trump didn’t commit crimes and should be prosecuted. The facts will have to bear that out. It’s kind of amazing how the media of both sides takes a couple morsels of knowledge and extrapolates into a giant speculative narrative. Color me skeptical being told “the walls are closing in for good” for the umteenth time only for nothing to come to fruition. 

I have no idea if this will bring about the end of Trump. I have my doubts January 6th will either despite my belief his actions (and lack of actions) should be obvious disqualifications to any voter. Personally I think his efforts to over through the election result stands the best chance.  

And I think you are right- as I have stated before in the eyes of Trumpsters he can do no wrong, or at least the ends justify the means. Even if one agrees with Trumps political platform, I cannot fathom why you’d want to elect someone with so much baggage who will inevitably be bogged down by it if elected.


----------



## AG_PhamD

Cmaier said:


> Guilt under any of the three statutes listed on the warrant does not depend on whether or not the documents were classified. None of the three criminal statutes mention document classification at all.
> 
> Even if there are additional statutes mentioned in the affidavit that do require classification, what Trump does with one hand Biden can undo with the other.  By the time the DoJ subpoenaed the documents they surely would have been “reclassified,” and Trump refusing to return them would then still be chargeable under these other statutes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally, there is some evidence that the supposedly “declassified” documents were being treated with at least a little security - locked up, etc.  This is evidence Trump knew these were not declassified documents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a standard search warrant. It specified a time range for the documents, the types of documents to be seized, and specified that they could be seized from wherever they were stored. There would be no other way to draft a search warrant that would still be assured of retrieving these documents, many of which are apparently among the most sensitive types of documents the government has.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that he admitted to a possible appearance of conflict due to a Clinton relationship in a case involving Clinton does not mean there is a basis to recuse himself from a different matter that involves trump but does not involve Clinton.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, she is not alleged to have destroyed 30,000 top secret documents on her email server.
> 
> 
> 
> Who presumes she used a private server “to avoid oversight?”




Good point about the classification/reclassification. 

Source on the the fact the judge recused himself due to a Clinton COA? From what I’ve read a reason was never officially stated. He did make negative comments about Trump- not exactly sure what those comments were. I don’t believe that necessarily precludes him from signing off on the warrant- but all these details don’t look great. Why not just find a judge:magistrate without such a history?

I didn’t mean to imply she deleted 30,000 top secret files. Rather she had highly classified documents and in addition deleted 30,000 emails the contents of which we will never know, along with devices which may have containied some of those emails. 

Why else would you run a private server for governmental purposes? Especially when government officials are strictly educated on how to handle government documents and communications? If Trump did this I would be saying the exact same thing and I suspect you’d would too.


----------



## Renzatic

AG_PhamD said:


> And I think optics are especially important if you don’t want another January 6th on our hands.




I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter what they do. Any move made against Trump, no matter how justified, carries the inherent risk of catalyzing another Jan. 6th style incident.

Our only choices are to kowtow to the mob, or do what needs to be done.


----------



## Runs For Fun

mac_in_tosh said:


> Can someone please explain to me what these Fox people are doing right now. Do they not care at all that they are tearing the country apart with their outrageous claims? What is their motivation? It's one thing to be conservative but with Trump they have someone who incited an actual violent attack on the Capitol in order to seize power and who now is found to have illegally removed highly classified documents from the White House jeopardizing the national security. And yet they still support him and are instead attacking the DOJ and FBI.
> 
> They were okay with his ignorance, his compulsive lying and moral bankruptcy, but Is there no threshold beyond which they won't go? Is Rupert Murdoch enjoying watching the turmoil and laughing all the way to the bank knowing he can return to Australia if things get really bad here? Are these Fox hosts stupid enough to really believe their nonsense, and if not why are they doing it? They could easily walk away from Trump and put their support behind DeSantis or someone else of like mind.



My dad brought up pretty much exactly this. They're playing with gas and fire. Trying to get the Trumpets all riled up. I swear they're trying to start another January 6th or even worse.


----------



## Cmaier

Runs For Fun said:


> My dad brought up pretty much exactly this. They're playing with gas and fire. Trying to get the Trumpets all riled up. I swear they're trying to start another January 6th or even worse.




What you don’t understand is that Both Sides are The Same™.  I mean, sure, you have the one guy who brought nuclear secrets to a mansion that he is not legally allowed to live in so that he could hand them over to a Russian dictator while arguing that anyone who disagrees with him is an enemy of the people so everyone should revolt against the government and install his family as a permanent line of dictators, but on the other side you have a lady whose I.T. guy deleted some emails about lunch orders and a guy whose son made some money by telling people his dad was vice president.  What? The first guy ripped up and flushed evidence that he gave the orders for an insurrection and has a son-in-law who traded top secret information for a multi-billion dollar loan from a foreign dictator? Well, that doesn’t matter.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Cmaier said:


> The first guy ripped up and flushed evidence



He apparently ate them too


----------



## Renzatic

Runs For Fun said:


> He apparently ate them too




State secrets taste like hamburders!


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> I wonder if this is the same lawyer who’s been flailing on Fox as much as Trump - the same one who let slip Trump had a better view of the raid from New York than she did, and who admitted on TV she hadn’t discussed with Trump whether he did or didn’t possess documents pertaining to nuclear information.
> 
> Both of those statements will come back to bite them on any potential Trump defenses.



Trump only hires the best lawyers.


----------



## lizkat

Runs For Fun said:


> My dad brought up pretty much exactly this. They're playing with gas and fire. Trying to get the Trumpets all riled up. I swear they're trying to start another January 6th or even worse.



Yes, so irresponsible.  They seem unable to step back and listen to themselves.   One of these days they'll overstep the bounds of protected speech, possibly.  Some of their commentary sails perilously close to the wind,  the way they seem to encourage Trump fans taking exception to the DoJ and FBI behavior in the matter of the Mar a Lago search warrant and investigation.  Fox needs to make it far more clear they don't support threats nor commission of political violence.  Some of the commentary they air falls way short of that, and it's not really mitigated by occasional disclaimers because stuff gets taken out of context and shoved onto social media in snippets.  Disclaimers are not in that material.



Roller said:


> I doubt most Fox hosts truly believe what they're saying, though much of their audience does. They're in it for the money, and perhaps the recognition from Trump and his supporters. Their wealth has largely shielded them from the consequences of their actions. Like most of the Republican party, hypocrisy means nothing to them — remember when they decried vaccination mandates at the same time their company required them?



Agreed.  The thing is, arsonists in nice clothes are still arsonists.   I loathe these edge-walking fire setters.


----------



## Huntn

lizkat said:


> What I don't get is how he managed to export entire sets of documents with highest levels of sensitivity.  It's not like they could have been left lying around in desk drawers.   Security must have been involved in their removal somehow.  Surely that angle is being pursued in the course of DoJ's investigation.



Maybe someone on staff reported that a secret order came from Trump to remove those boxes over there (specially packed) In his household goods shipment.  What I don’t know is if the White House basement includes a classified documents skiff, facility for storing classified docs. The ones I was familiar with was not a cabinet but a room, where ID had to be verified before admittance. I’ll assume it does, which means it is staffed 24 hours, so unless you had a bunch of people in on this, It seems to be difficult to remove a significant quantity of classified material and no one noticing this. Documents when I was in this environment, had to be checked out and in.  There was also a protocol to monitor the making of copies, at least that is now I remember it.  There was probably an insider tip.


----------



## shadow puppet

So they've moved on from accusing the FBI of planting evidence to a sitting GOP Senator trying to repeal the espionage act.
God I hope the indictments kick in before November.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558579480171614209/


----------



## lizkat

tbh I don't get why some of these pols figure it nets them anything to be telling such baldfaced lies.

Here Rubio is being corrected after just flat making stuff up on live TV.  He's a US Senator and a past and possibly a future presidential candidate.  Nowadays he's casually autopiloting false talking points,  just to kiss Trump's ring,  I suppose because not enough rats have started to jump off the afterdeck of the dirty scow USS Donald J. Trump quite yet.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557227340270288896/


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Runs For Fun said:


> My dad brought up pretty much exactly this. They're playing with gas and fire. Trying to get the Trumpets all riled up. I swear they're trying to start another January 6th or even worse.



But why would they want chaos and violence unless they're acting as agents of a foreign government?


----------



## lizkat

mac_in_tosh said:


> But why would they want chaos and violence unless they're acting as agents of a foreign government?



Because they're plain horses' asses?   The network's willingness to make a buck has occluded any sense of responsibility for influence on the actions of their viewership.


----------



## GermanSuplex

AG_PhamD said:


> Good point about the classification/reclassification.
> 
> Source on the the fact the judge recused himself due to a Clinton COA? From what I’ve read a reason was never officially stated. He did make negative comments about Trump- not exactly sure what those comments were. I don’t believe that necessarily precludes him from signing off on the warrant- but all these details don’t look great. Why not just find a judge:magistrate without such a history?
> 
> I didn’t mean to imply she deleted 30,000 top secret files. Rather she had highly classified documents and in addition deleted 30,000 emails the contents of which we will never know, along with devices which may have containied some of those emails.
> 
> Why else would you run a private server for governmental purposes? Especially when government officials are strictly educated on how to handle government documents and communications? If Trump did this I would be saying the exact same thing and I suspect you’d would too.




What is the difference between running a private e-mail server or using your private email for official government business like Jared and Ivanka?


----------



## Cmaier

mac_in_tosh said:


> But why would they want chaos and violence unless they're acting as agents of a foreign government?



Nah.  They are the minority. They cannot win national elections and a national majority if everyone votes and every vote is counted.  So long term they are doomed.  Their solution is to cast democracy aside, to lie about what the other side does, etc.  The truth does not help them.


----------



## Cmaier

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558607384972365824/


----------



## GermanSuplex

The rubes constant argument that Trump had absolute authority to declassify the documents doesn’t change what’s in or on the documents. This argument undermines their constant whining about “Buttery Males” (). First, he’s not being charged for not declassifying documents and taking them home. That’s not the charge. He can’t have them, take them home, then ignore federal subpoenas to turn them over, have his lawyers sign documents saying he complied and no longer has them.

I just would like to know why people think that even if he could declassify anything he wanted, why would he? Again, what interest did it serve ANYONE? If he had found a legal way to declassify all of our nuclear secrets, invite Putin to the White House and give them to him during a live primetime meeting, would that be ok, even if “legal”? Extreme example, I know, but when will people’s devotion turn back to the country and the men and women who protect it instead of being entirely channeled into the protection of one single man?

A bit of a rhetorical question, because we don’t have many conservative posters here. I just can’t understand the rank hypocrisy and lies coming from the GOP. Watching that clip of Marco Rubio lying and then Rand Paul ignorantly asking “how do we know evidence wasn’t planted?” is just so maddening. This same party was perfectly ok with giving the federal government free reign to obtain all sorts of surveillance and information on millions of Americans “because terrorism”, but when tons of classified info is purposefully and willfully taken to Trump’s home, stored there and illegally kept from authorities, it’s a travesty against _him_?

We’ve been hearing more about Hillary Clinton from the right this past week than we have Trump, and I understand the parallels and am no way condoning what Clinton did. But as with any line of work, there’s a clear difference in intent. The argument that it was careless is important and true. But digital rules have changed swiftly over the last decade, and Trump ran on “Lock Her Up”. So you would think he of all people would be the least likely to take a bunch of important shit home to a golf club, then defy subpoenas. Never mind the fact the timeline and circumstances between this and the Clinton scandal are wholly different. We could have a whole separate thread to discuss the parallels and differences, but they are not the same. It’s not a valid defense of Trump to bring up Hillary Clinton.

*FFS, this dude knows better.


----------



## Roller

GermanSuplex said:


> The rubes constant argument that Trump had absolute authority to declassify the documents doesn’t change what’s in or on the documents. This argument undermines their constant whining about “Buttery Males” (). First, he’s not being charged for not declassifying documents and taking them home. That’s not the charge. He can’t have them, take them home, then ignore federal subpoenas to turn them over, have his lawyers sign documents saying he complied and no longer has them.
> 
> I just would like to know why people think that even if he could declassify anything he wanted, why would he? Again, what interest did it serve ANYONE? If he had found a legal way to declassify all of our nuclear secrets, invite Putin to the White House and give them to him during a live primetime meeting, would that be ok, even if “legal”? Extreme example, I know, but when will people’s devotion turn back to the country and the men and women who protect it instead of being entirely channeled into the protection of one single man?
> 
> A bit of a rhetorical question, because we don’t have many conservative posters here. I just can’t understand the rank hypocrisy and lies coming from the GOP. Watching that clip of Marco Rubio lying and then Rand Paul ignorantly asking “how do we know evidence wasn’t planted?” is just so maddening. This same party was perfectly ok with giving the federal government free reign to obtain all sorts of surveillance and information on millions of Americans “because terrorism”, but when tons of classified info is purposefully and willfully taken to Trump’s home, stored there and illegally kept from authorities, it’s a travesty against _him_?
> 
> We’ve been hearing more about Hillary Clinton from the right this past week than we have Trump, and I understand the parallels and am no way condoning what Clinton did. But as with any line of work, there’s a clear difference in intent. The argument that it was careless is important and true. But digital rules have changed swiftly over the last decade, and Trump ran on “Lock Her Up”. So you would think he of all people would be the least likely to take a bunch of important shit home to a golf club, then defy subpoenas. Never mind the fact the timeline and circumstances between this and the Clinton scandal are wholly different. We could have a whole separate thread to discuss the parallels and differences, but they are not the same. It’s not a valid defense of Trump to bring up Hillary Clinton.
> 
> *FFS, this dude knows better.



Among other things, the Trump era has demonstrated the need to put in place laws to limit the president's power. In the past, we've expected presidents to follow norms, to stay within guardrails imposed by longstanding practice, dedication to the collective good, and decency. Nixon went beyond them, but eventually gave in and resigned when faced with certain conviction in the Senate, thanks to the efforts of his congressional supporters.

None of that has held true with Trump, who believes he can do anything he wishes, knowing most elected officials in his party will support him or, at most, won't do or say anything on the record. Republican senators had not just one, but two opportunities to ensure Trump could never run for office again, but failed to act.

No president should have the ability to unilaterally declassify sensitive documents and share them as they wish, to initiate a nuclear strike or counter-strike, or invoke martial law without appropriate consultation.


----------



## Alli

Runs For Fun said:


> He apparently ate them too



With or without catsup?


----------



## Alli

One of the more recent excuses used by team Covfefe is that TFG was too busy couping to pack in a timely manner so he was just throwing stuff in boxes. 

My question is - why were there that many documents in the residential quarters?


----------



## Cmaier

Consciousness of guilt:

After the meeting where the gov’t went to Mar-a-Lago and collected stuff, they told Trump’s people that the room where it was kept wasn’t secure. After that, Trump put a bigger lock on the room.

That’s very different than what had been reported - that the government told Trump to put a bigger lock on it.  

The gov’t was told it had picked up all the classified and secret documents, so it had no reason to tell trump to put a lock on it. But trump put a lock on it because he knew that there were still secrets there.


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> One of the more recent excuses used by team Covfefe is that TFG was too busy couping to pack in a timely manner so he was just throwing stuff in boxes.
> 
> My question is - why were there that many documents in the residential quarters?




I want to know if DoJ has turned whoever assisted Trump in extracting so much material from SCIFs or safes in the West Wing or the temporary SCIF at Mar a Lago.

In the case of a President,  the return of a particular document or set of documents is not likely on the clock like for a public library patron,  but still....   the stuff must be logged out somewhere whenever removed, no?

 So was it squirreled away over time, or taken all at once on the very last day?   And if the latter, was it then even logged out?    In that case someone or the someones who managed that escapade have recently had a very high level of motivation to turn self into the DoJ and cooperate fully,  in hopes of escaping some part of an extremely long prison sentence.


----------



## Cmaier

From WaPo:


It is not precisely clear who packed up the classified materials at Mar-a-Lago, or how they got there in the first place. Trump was very secretive about the packing of boxes that were retrieved from Mar-a-Lago last month, and did not let other aides — including some of his most senior advisers — look at them, according to people close to him.


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> In the case of a President, the return of a particular document or set of documents is not likely on the clock like for a public library patron, but still.... the stuff must be logged out somewhere whenever removed, no?




There's typically a person who controls documents being checked out to requestors, and when documents are returned. Signed and dated receipts with the name of the document and name of the person taking/returning the document with a copy given to the requestor.


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> From WaPo:
> 
> 
> It is not precisely clear who packed up the classified materials at Mar-a-Lago, or how they got there in the first place. Trump was very secretive about the packing of boxes that were retrieved from Mar-a-Lago last month, and did not let other aides — including some of his most senior advisers — look at them, according to people close to him.






citypix said:


> There's typically a person who controls documents being checked out to requestors, and when documents are returned. Signed and dated receipts with the name of the document and name of the person taking/returning the document with a copy given to the requestor.




Trump's level of paranoia by now must be off the charts, or else he's on some really great meds.


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> Trump's level of paranoia by now must be off the charts, or else he's on some really great meds.




In the real world that's how it works with "regular people" working in that environment.  

In trump world, who knows?


----------



## lizkat

citypix said:


> In the real world that's how it works with "regular people" working in that environment.
> 
> In trump world, who knows?




True.  Trump likely never really trusts anyone anyway, and may figure that money (or.. kompromat?) will fix whatever goes wrong as a result of his dealings, including confidences exchanged,  or valued information he holds but with a shady provenance.


----------



## Cmaier

Another fun thing.  Trump people claim they were able to turn on the cameras from NY and watch the search.  Which means cameras are everywhere in mar-a-Lago and are connected to the internet?  How long have they been there? Do we really think they can’t have been hacked by foreign governments? Is there sound?


----------



## Citysnaps

Cmaier said:


> Do we really think they can’t have been hacked by foreign governments? Is there sound?




I think that would have been a piece of cake by almost any foreign government. One that's somewhat sophisticated such as Russian intelligence services...it's already happened - count on it.

And that's really troubling knowing how careless trump is.


----------



## Cmaier

citypix said:


> I think that would have been a piece of cake by almost any foreign government. One that's somewhat sophisticated such as Russian intelligence services...it's already happened - count on it.
> 
> And that's really troubling knowing how careless trump is.



He’s such a cheap careless bastard he probably installed Ring cameras all over the place


----------



## Citysnaps

Cmaier said:


> He’s such a cheap careless bastard he probably installed Ring cameras all over the place




And _if_ they were password protected, he probably demanded it be "Trump".


----------



## fooferdoggie

citypix said:


> And _if_ they were password protected, he probably demanded it be "Trump".



or stickittothelibs.


----------



## Citysnaps

fooferdoggie said:


> or stickittothelibs.




_Covfefe_ would have been a nice crowd-pleaser.


----------



## Runs For Fun

citypix said:


> And _if_ they were password protected, he probably demanded it be "Trump".



Or maga2020!


----------



## Cmaier

Runs For Fun said:


> Or maga2020!




“Invankasboobs”


----------



## Runs For Fun

Now this is interesting
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558181324879429637/


----------



## Cmaier

Runs For Fun said:


> Now this is interesting
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558181324879429637/



Yeah, that’s not quite right. There had to be probable cause of the elements of the listed crimes. Those don’t necessarily require turning over docs to foreign agents.


----------



## lizkat

Stomach-churning piece in the WSJ about the last days of the Trump presidency and the rush to pack up. Of course now nobody wants to have had any responsibility whatsoever as to what went to Mar a Lago.  Also there's no way to tell when some of the retrieved documents were taken there to begin with, i.e. as his presidency was ending or beforehand.   So no clue how long some of it may have lain around in Florida in less than secure surroundings or who may have accessed it.









						Trump’s Final Days Draw Scrutiny as Handling of Documents Investigated
					

A rushed and chaotic exit from the White House is at the center of a federal probe that conducted a search of the former president’s Mar-a-Lago resort.




					www.wsj.com
				






> Former advisers said that beyond the Oval Office, other West Wing offices, including the counsel’s and staff secretary’s offices, had begun packing up after the election was called for Mr. Biden. Members of their offices were designated as point persons. Aides put presidential records in boxes for the Archives and documents that didn’t need to be retained into “burn bags,” the contents of which would be incinerated.
> 
> Some former aides said they had substantial leeway in determining what went where.
> 
> “It was not a vigorous process where they have oversight and they’re checking to make sure you did it,” said one former White House official, who described the process as haphazard, even by the freewheeling standards of the administration. The document sorting, the former official said, was “kind of like the honor system.”






> Officials regularly transported classified information with the president to Mar-a-Lago and other properties he visited, which on its own isn’t unusual, former aides said. Mr. Trump as president had access at Mar-a-Lago to what is known as a sensitive compartmented information facility, or SCIF, but didn’t always use it to view sensitive material, a former aide said.
> 
> Some aides grew concerned when the president would ask to hold on to a sensitive document while at his Florida resort because they didn’t always know where the document would end up, the aide said.


----------



## fooferdoggie

trump just can't stop himself. he needs real lawyers, Didthey take his coloring books and the stuff he drew on with a sharpie? 
Former President Donald Trump on Sunday called for the Justice Department to return the reams of documents FBI agents seized at his Mar-a-Lago resort last week, pointing to a report that said the information was covered by attorney-client or executive privilege.

“Oh great! It has just been learned that the FBI, in its now famous raid of Mar-a-Lago, took boxes of privileged ‘attorney-client’ material, and also ‘executive’ privileged material, which they knowingly should not have taken,” Trump said on his Truth Social site.

“By copy of this TRUTH, I respectfully request that these documents be immediately returned to the location from which they were taken. Thank you!,” the former president said in the posting.









						Trump calls for seized documents to be returned to Mar-a-Lago
					

Former President Donald Trump on Sunday called for the Justice Department to return the reams of documents FBI agents seized at his Mar-a-Lago resort last week.




					nypost.com


----------



## Runs For Fun

fooferdoggie said:


> trump just can't stop himself. he needs real lawyers, Didthey take his coloring books and the stuff he drew on with a sharpie?
> Former President Donald Trump on Sunday called for the Justice Department to return the reams of documents FBI agents seized at his Mar-a-Lago resort last week, pointing to a report that said the information was covered by attorney-client or executive privilege.
> 
> “Oh great! It has just been learned that the FBI, in its now famous raid of Mar-a-Lago, took boxes of privileged ‘attorney-client’ material, and also ‘executive’ privileged material, which they knowingly should not have taken,” Trump said on his Truth Social site.
> 
> “By copy of this TRUTH, I respectfully request that these documents be immediately returned to the location from which they were taken. Thank you!,” the former president said in the posting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump calls for seized documents to be returned to Mar-a-Lago
> 
> 
> Former President Donald Trump on Sunday called for the Justice Department to return the reams of documents FBI agents seized at his Mar-a-Lago resort last week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com



Ah I just came here to post this! I can’t stop laughing


----------



## lizkat

Intercept has some piece up now saying that LBJ held back some archive-worthy papers too.   But ya know  I don't really like it that some people are pitching uninformed comparisons of the likes of LBJ holding back some papers to Trump's wholesale disregard for the Presidentidal Records Act AND for any underlying laws on classified documents and restricted data.

 We don't yet know and may never know exactly what Trump even took (thanks to how sensitive some of the stuff apparently is or was), whether some of it was destroyed,  who else has seen it but who should not have had access, and the possible adverse impact his actions may already have had on anyone or any country without their prior knowledge or expectation of danger.  Also, the reforms with respect to presidential papers were not in effect when LBJ was president.  

The more I think about this stuff,  the more I am appalled that Trump managed to export documents at all to Mar a Lago (and apparently not return some he was legitimately able to have and examine in a SCIF down there while President),  despite people in his own party and his aides knowing that he was not in the least trustworthy or careful about such things.   Gotta love it that some of these aides figured to reveal these tidbits in their damn memoirs,  or only now under deposition during these investigations....  

He declassified stuff on the fly in some of his tweets without even  meaning to do that, i.e. popping out a satellite photo that revealed we had capabilities for such photos that until then were not publicly known.​​"I guess that's not classified any more," was the rueful remark of some NSA guy after that incident.​​Yet the Republican leadership dismissed almost every misdeed of their nominal leader by shrugging it off as "well that's just Trump being Trump,"  with just a few exceptions, like when there was national uproar, e.g., after the Charlottesville incident and Trump went with his "both sides" argument and so won plaudits from white supremacists like David Duke and Richard B. Spencer.

It's one thing for Trump's base to shrug off Trump's misdeeds and norm-busting tweets and remarks,  but another for officials in Congress with high level intel clearances themselves to brush off Trump's transgressions regarding document handling.  They know better.  Yet they bash the FBI and DoJ for going after missing documents that were known to be TS/SCI level?   For shame.

I'm happy to see now that some R governors and members of Congress are starting to at least chide fellow Rs who have been badmouthing taw enforcement after the search warrant was executed at Mar a Lago.


----------



## fooferdoggie

the only time I remember them actually condemning trump was when he was with Putin and agreed with Putin about national security and what else I cant remember. but that was early on till everyone was numb and just let him do it.


----------



## GermanSuplex

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558579480171614209/

These freaks are all over the place with their defenses of Trump. Funny, he didn’t call for laws against breaking your neighbor’s ribs to be repealed, but then I guess it wasn’t Trump who kicked his ass.

This guy’s gimmick of being in any way some sort of constitutionalist was always laughable, but he’s not even trying anymore.


----------



## Runs For Fun

GermanSuplex said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558579480171614209/
> 
> These freaks are all over the place with their defenses of Trump. Funny, he didn’t call for laws against breaking your neighbor’s ribs to be repealed, but then I guess it wasn’t Trump who kicked his ass.
> 
> This guy’s gimmick of being in any way some sort of constitutionalist was always laughable, but he’s not even trying anymore.



Rand Paul is an idiot


----------



## GermanSuplex

I swear, if Trump did indeed shoot someone on Fifth Avenue, not only would he probably not lose votes - as he predicted - but these ass-kissing senators and representatives would probably diminish Trump‘s pulling of a gun’s trigger to “since when is moving a piece of metal a couple centimeters illegal? I used a paper clip yesterday, should I go to prison? We must repeal these laws that make taking your finger and applying pressure to metal illegal! They are rife for abuse!”


----------



## Yoused

GermanSuplex said:


> This guy’s gimmick of being in any way some sort of constitutionalist was always laughable, but he’s not even trying anymore.




When dhId he ever claim to be a constitutionalist? As far as I can recall, he was always a dogmatic glibertarian, who believes that "I" should be free to do whatever I want as long as I do not perceive my actions as causing you any, and if you do anything that impairs my profits, you shall be subject to caning, pillory and possibly mutilation.

He is the leader of the "I want" Party.


----------



## AG_PhamD

GermanSuplex said:


> What is the difference between running a private e-mail server or using your private email for official government business like Jared and Ivanka?




I would think that’s just as illegal. I would argue an aide is a little different than the Secretary of State in terms the decisions and influence they have, but either way it shouldn’t be happening and is worthy of investigation. As I said before, it’s one violation to use private email, it’s an entirely worse one to destroy evidence. And Trump, like Clinton should be investigated regarding that.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> till everyone was numb and just let him do it.




That's been the most distinctive modus operandi of Trump all along.   Shrug off criticism and move on to next outrage.  Of course we have got numb.   30k documented public lies and counting...  so what could "the truth" possibly be to a global society drowning in replays and relays of a former US president who construes "the truth" as whatever comes out of his mouth right now?

Mainstream papers of record here and abroad have been just as guilty as Fox News (and left-leaning counterparts) in terms of giving oxygen to Trump's distortions, falsehoods and divisive proclamations.   The problem with disputing or challenging what the man has said is that one inevitably ends up relaying anew his lies and projections while making the effort to discredit them.

It's an almost insoluble problem really, and Trump takes comfort in that,  although there are some ways to minimize spreading the guy's disinformation.   I've noticed that more mainstream media outlets online and over cable have stopped quoting or carrying live much of the garbage Trump spouts at his rallies,  and instead just report the date and location of the event and a few details about turnout, purpose of rally, names of candidates he was ostensibly there to promote, etc.

But Fox News remains an ugly problem for the USA,  in that new studies have shown that far more people still acquire what passes as "news" these days from television than from social media, with Fox often the sole source of what passes for news for most right-leaning viewers. 









						Cable news has a much bigger effect on America’s polarization than social media, study finds
					

"Compared to online audiences, partisan TV news consumers tend not to stray too far from their narrow sets of preferred news sources."



					www.niemanlab.org
				




Further,  Fox persists on its talk show segments in peddling disinformation, misinformation, intentional hyping of anger and blaming "the radical left" for all of society's ills, even while downplaying misdeeds and fabrications by Trump via the social media outlet he formed after being banned by Twitter and Facebook.   So there's a funneling effect for conservatively inclined TV viewers in the USA.

That and the fact that right wing social media users are extremely loud if not a significantly large segment of the USA population add up to a magnification of the power of Donald Trump.  This is so even as his utility to the Republican Party wanes,  and his hopeful base-inheritors jockey to take the reins, simultaneously trying to stay off Trump's radar so as not to enrage him and throw shade on their prospects.

For historians, sociologists and political scientists, the Trump era has been and remains fascinating.  However, for the USA's externally perceived coherence as a vibrant, diverse country with a strong underlying sense of being "America",  Trump's divisive influence remains a nightmare,  with an ugly promise of not fading away any time soon, even as the man himself recedes from the public spotlight.

There's an old saw about how "we are what we eat".  Updated to include information consumption, it runs as "we are what we read" (or, watch).  For us to emerge from this self-destructive era, awash in the lies of Donald Trump, we have to quit being part of the problem, quit relaying his and his followers' lies and projections, quit inadvertently keeping him on a pedestal, start trying to get back to actual policy issues:   what are the problems we share and must roll up sleeves to resolve?   What are some ideas for solutions, how can they be made feasible by altering choices of private and public funding,  how do we educate children to meet those challenges together?

How to do any of that while tackling the real threats of political violence and degradation of American democracy is a challenge.   One can hardly let pass some of the monstrous lies offered up by this former president Trump and his craven supporters still in high places, never mind the swill circulating on social media.  On the other hand just citing the garbage Trump spouts and his defenders shout at us nightly on TV does bring it to still more eyeballs and minds

 It's the conundrum of the century so far:  how to leave behind our addiction to outrage and cheap shots at each other? 

Until we can figure that out we're not likely to make progress on identifying and solving our more concrete problems. But it must start with emerging from numbness and not just "letting Trump be Trump" any more.   To my mind, the DoJ has fired the warning shot across Trump's bow on that score.   Trump may finally have gone too far in his assumptions that he's above our rule of law.


----------



## Eric

This does not look like it will end well.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1558639679150456833/


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> This does not look like it will end well.



I bet they are  as stupid as the Jan 6 idiots. trump is lapping this up and sending out donation emails.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Another 









						Trump 'will do whatever' he can to 'help the country' after FBI raid: 'Temperature has to be brought down'
					

EXCLUSIVE: Former President Trump said he “will do whatever” he can “to help the country” after the FBI’s raid of his Mar-a-Lago home last week.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Eric

GermanSuplex said:


> Another
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump 'will do whatever' he can to 'help the country' after FBI raid: 'Temperature has to be brought down'
> 
> 
> EXCLUSIVE: Former President Trump said he “will do whatever” he can “to help the country” after the FBI’s raid of his Mar-a-Lago home last week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com



Like the arsonist consoling the burn victims.


----------



## Renzatic

Eric said:


> This does not look like it will end well.




It looks like about 10 people so far. I doubt anything will happen other than some angry screaming.


----------



## fischersd

Renzatic said:


> It looks like about 10 people so far. I doubt anything will happen other than some angry screaming.



We can hope that they point their weapons at the building.  Always a good day when some of the lowest common denominator are culled from the herd.


----------



## Nycturne

I was having a conversation yesterday about how we are looking at more escalation in the short term from the same folks that believe the election was stolen. Seems I’m not the only one:









						Ex-CIA analyst says fallout over raid on Trump's Mar-a-Lago resembles the lead-up to the Capitol attack and predicts another 'catastrophic event'
					

Violent threats against law enforcement spiked as Republicans railed against the FBI's Mar-a-Lago raid and suggested regular citizens could be next.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Citysnaps

In somewhat related news... Today lawyers for Giuliani were advised he's a target of a criminal investigation in Georgia's election meddling inquiry.

 I wouldn't be shocked if Lindsey G is up next, now that his attempt to have a subpoena (investigating election meddling) quashed was overruled by a Federal judge.

Georgia isn't fooling around.  Refreshing!


----------



## Cmaier

Gov’t doesn’t want the affidavit to be released, lest it screw up their ongoing investigation of Trump.


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> Gov’t doesn’t want the affidavit to be released, lest it screw up their ongoing investigation of Trump.



Sounds like that's what we should expect, these guys are not playing into anyone's political games.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Sounds like that's what we should expect, these guys are not playing into anyone's political games.




The interesting thing to me is I think the list of alleged crimes in the affidavit is going to be a superset of what was in the warrant.


----------



## Cmaier

citypix said:


> In somewhat related news... Today lawyers for Giuliani were advised he's a target of a criminal investigation in Georgia's election meddling inquiry.




I think they should be investigating why Giuliani is slowly morphing into The Penguin.


----------



## Renzatic

Cmaier said:


> I think they should be investigating why Giuliani is slowly morphing into The Penguin.




That's a helluva mean thing to say about The Penguin, man. Take it back!


----------



## GermanSuplex

I expect there will be a swath of republican elected officials in Georgia indicted with the “fake electors” plot, unless they spill the beans on people like Rudy, Meadows and others.

There’s so many moving parts to this.


----------



## Cmaier




----------



## Renzatic

kwak kwak KWAK!


----------



## Cmaier

Renzatic said:


> kwak kwak KWAK!



I forgot the cigarette holder.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Since the DoJ opposes unsealing the affidavit justifying the search warrant, Republican bootlickers will demand to see it. But if it was released, they would claim releasing it proves the case couldn’t be that serious.

Keeping this sealed - at least for now - is the obviously correct move. I’m unsure if the DoJ being tight-lipped is good or bad… on one hand, republicans can control the narrative and run around saying whatever they want. On the other, they’re totally untethered to reality and will try to control the narrative anyways, and having them flailing about defending Trump when they don’t even know what he’s accused (or not accused) of weakens their arguments and could result in some very embarrassing moments for all of them.

Regardless, I think the justice department is playing this absolutely the right way.

** John Bolton is pissing me off. He shouldn’t be interviewed by any major news network. He refused to testify during Trump’s impeachment hearings and didn’t say anything to anyone when he was working in the Trump administration. Now he wants to tell the world how careless Trump was regarding national security and other sensitive material? Go the fuck away you opportunistic coward.


----------



## Cmaier

There is nothing this dude won’t lie about.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1559312970173259784/


----------



## Roller

Cmaier said:


> I think they should be investigating why Giuliani is slowly morphing into The Penguin.



I think someone should investigate why a man who looks like he was embalmed years ago is apparently still alive.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Cmaier said:


> There is nothing this dude won’t lie about.



where does he get thee passports?


----------



## Cmaier

fooferdoggie said:


> where does he get thee passports?



One was expired. 

He may have gotten a special one as President.


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> There is nothing this dude won’t lie about.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1559312970173259784/



He probably accidentally flushed them.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Once again, do these dunskies not realize that any argument they buy from Trump, Biden can also make? Imagine Biden just leaving on his last day hauling off tons of classified stuff to his home. “Oh, it’s not classified anymore.”

Trump doesn’t even read… why would he even NEED any of this stuff? These arguments are so all over the place and full of shit. We have a serious problem with low-IQ people in this country with no critical reasoning skills. It’s all about instant gratification, an intense desire to see the guy they like win at any cost, and any argument they make is solely to justify themselves feeling good in the moment, never stopping to think how their arguments in defense of Trump could apply to the present and future presidents.

According to these dipshits, Biden would be making a “perfect phone call” to phone Putin and ask him to investigate the Trump family. It’s perfectly acceptable for Biden to take a box of secret materials home and then just say “yeah, I declassified it” if he’s ever confronted about it. It would be fine for him to invite Iranians in the Oval Office and disclose sensitive Israeli intel to them. I could keep going, but you get the point.

These people are short-sighted, and to make matters worse, they get NO a pushback from their elected officials. These congressional republicans severely underestimate their own influence and power.


----------



## lizkat

After revelation of the recent human trafficking busts, explain to me again why the right wants to defund the FBI?









						FBI locates 121 minors, 141 adults in nationwide human trafficking bust
					

The FBI worked with state and local partners to track down the victims during a campaign dubbed "Operation Cross Country."




					www.axios.com


----------



## fooferdoggie

Cmaier said:


> One was expired.
> 
> He may have gotten a special one as President.



well ya a passport to go to nay lengths to make money.


----------



## GermanSuplex

lizkat said:


> After revelation of the recent human trafficking busts, explain to me again why the right wants to defund the FBI?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FBI locates 121 minors, 141 adults in nationwide human trafficking bust
> 
> 
> The FBI worked with state and local partners to track down the victims during a campaign dubbed "Operation Cross Country."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.axios.com




These people don’t care about kids. And I doubt they despise sex traffickers, otherwise Gaetz would have been pressured to resign hours after the story on him broke. How long has that been?

If Trump was running a sex trafficking ring out of Mar-A-Lago, republicans would rally for the age of consent to be changed.


----------



## Cmaier

fooferdoggie said:


> well ya a passport to go to nay lengths to make money.



I got that message in a fortune cookie one time.


----------



## Runs For Fun

tl;dr recap of things


----------



## Yoused

Now it looks like the Russkies are displeased by the FBI search-and-seizure action, so they want to protect iDJiT and "fix" American democracy. Evgeny Popov, a TV host and member of Duma, said, on Russian state TV,
*We need to officially tackle the American democracy, American society, American economy … There are more homeless children in America than anywhere else in the world. These are the official statistics. There aren’t that many impoverished neighborhoods, with medieval levels of poverty, not seen anywhere else—not even in Somalia. Clearly, we have to help Americans to deal with this disaster. Of course, we can take those homeless children and raise them—normally, without gays and transgenders, in normal, classic culture. We need to start dealing with this right away.*​
But, no, Individual-ONE does not work for Vlad or Russia.


----------



## shadow puppet

My fav tweet of the day.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1559343500226863105/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Not to feed into the conspiracies, but at least we’re rational enough to admit we’re speculating, wondering and guessing…. But…

What if there is someone close to Trump talking? Is he/has he been under surveillance? Anyone worn a wire around him? What’s Kushner been up to?

Taking this stuff home and holding onto it is only one part of the puzzle. What don’t we know yet? This is what should give conservatives pause before just blindly condemning the DoJ and coming up with all these conspiracies. This could go a hundred different directions, and it’s very hard for me to wrap my mind around the justice department issuing that warrant and raiding his home if the taking of the documents - which is serious, to be sure - was his ONLY wrongdoing.

You know it’s a bad week for Trump when the television media has barely even reported on Weisselberg planning to plead guilty.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> Not to feed into the conspiracies, but at least we’re rational enough to admit we’re speculating, wondering and guessing…. But…
> 
> What if there is someone close to Trump talking? Is he/has he been under surveillance? Anyone worn a wire around him? What’s Kushner been up to?
> 
> Taking this stuff home and holding onto it is only one part of the puzzle. What don’t we know yet? This is what should give conservatives pause before just blindly condemning the DoJ and coming up with all these conspiracies. This could go a hundred different directions, and it’s very hard for me to wrap my mind around the justice department issuing that warrant and raiding his home if the taking of the documents - which is serious, to be sure - was his ONLY wrongdoing.
> 
> You know it’s a bad week for Trump when the television media has barely even reported on Weisselberg planning to plead guilty.




I agree. it feels like there is something much larger in play beyond not timely returning the documents he snagged; even though not adequately protecting those documents at his resort with people visiting Mar a Lago from all over the world while he had them is pretty grave on its own.  The DOJ appears to be protecting the underlying information (could be a variety of events and witnesses) in the warrant afidavit very tightly to not undermine their case.


----------



## Yoused

GermanSuplex said:


> What if there is someone close to Trump talking?



And it may well be simpler than that: the nazcar version of rev-psych, also known as "double-down". Ordinary folk may be all "_JFC, how much stupider can you get_", but the magatroids and their handlers are all about stirring up the muck and creating even more tension where there should have been none to begin with.

In other words, if there is a mole-like critter in the inner circle, they are working their contacts to gain maximum persecution-outrage.


----------



## Macky-Mac

GermanSuplex said:


> Not to feed into the conspiracies, but at least we’re rational enough to admit we’re speculating, wondering and guessing…. But…
> 
> What if there is someone close to Trump talking? Is he/has he been under surveillance? Anyone worn a wire around him? What’s Kushner been up to?




hmmmm, an inside job!

Early on there was speculation that there must have been an inside source since the info about where and what to look for was so specific......and then later 
sometime last week I saw an article somewhere that speculated that it could have been either Jared or Ivanka .....so you're not alone in your speculation


----------



## fooferdoggie

Classified Document Was Once Found In A Bathroom, Ex-Homeland Security Adviser Says​








						Classified Document Was Once Found In A Bathroom, Ex-Homeland Security Adviser Says
					

"This information should be be stored properly and secured because it could put lives at risk" if it gets into the wrong hands, warned Olivia Troye.




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## Runs For Fun

fooferdoggie said:


> Classified Document Was Once Found In A Bathroom, Ex-Homeland Security Adviser Says​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Classified Document Was Once Found In A Bathroom, Ex-Homeland Security Adviser Says
> 
> 
> "This information should be be stored properly and secured because it could put lives at risk" if it gets into the wrong hands, warned Olivia Troye.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com



Someone needed some reading material because their phone was charging?


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> Classified Document Was Once Found In A Bathroom, Ex-Homeland Security Adviser Says​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Classified Document Was Once Found In A Bathroom, Ex-Homeland Security Adviser Says
> 
> 
> "This information should be be stored properly and secured because it could put lives at risk" if it gets into the wrong hands, warned Olivia Troye.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com




Let's face it, Trump in office was a perambulating time bomb,  with probably still unknown ultimate effect on either US policy or the functionality of our government agencies,  thanks to his stream-of-consciousness approach to governance, and his tendency to corrupt whatever processes he engaged in.









						CDC to regain control of US hospital data after Trump-era seizure, chaos
					

TeleTracking, which has personal ties to Trump, made over $50M in federal contracts.




					arstechnica.com
				




All the memoirs of the Trump era so far released make reference to the twists and turns of the average day in the West Wing -- trying to keep up with his tweet stream, trying to get him back on track in a meeting after someone triggered a hissy fit,  or on really bad days just trying to distract him from pursuing something he could not legally do and wanted done "right now" anyway.

It's easy to say there were no heroes in there, but on the other hand we may have incurred daily debts of gratitude to the aides and advisers who were still able to separate a duty to country over loyalty to Trump, even if a particular decision was also taken out of desire for self-preservation.

The problem of course is wear and tear on the soul, versus sheer weariness in resisting Trump's perpetual testing of the guardrails around him, whether Constitutional or just from wary experience as time went on. 

Resignation from the administration might have been the preferred option sometimes for the sake of country, but...  giving an inch and another inch and another,  or turning a blind eye might have seemed so much easier a day at a time.


----------



## Huntn

This could just as easily go in the Trump Cesspool thread but is more related to this. He’s not his Father’s Son, he’s a fucking Trump Minion Idiot::

Sen. Rand Paul Aims To Repeal Espionage Act To Save Trump​








						Sen. Rand Paul Aims To Repeal Espionage Act To Save Trump
					

Paul wants to protect the First Amendment rights of spies.




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

Remember when McCain accused Paul of working for Russia? He's not doing much to help himself.


----------



## Joe

I can't believe people looked at this idiot and thought he was worth voting for TWICE lol

I don't trust your judgement if you voted for this guy TWICE!


----------



## lizkat

Huntn said:


> This could just as easily go in the Trump Cesspool thread but is more related to this. He’s not his Father’s Son, he’s a fucking Trump Minion Idiot::
> 
> Sen. Rand Paul Aims To Repeal Espionage Act To Save Trump​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sen. Rand Paul Aims To Repeal Espionage Act To Save Trump
> 
> 
> Paul wants to protect the First Amendment rights of spies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com




Why would a US Senator pull this stunt any time, never mind when we (and Sen.Paul) don't have a clue what sort of case(s) the DoJ has assembled in which it has established cause for a warrant that references the Espionage Act? 

 Oh, but...  Paul is up for re-election in November.  Probably feels the need to keep his name before the electorate.


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> Why would a US Senator pull this stunt any time, never mind when we (and Sen.Paul) don't have a clue what sort of case(s) the DoJ has assembled in which it has established cause for a warrant that references the Espionage Act?
> 
> Oh, but...  Paul is up for re-election in November.  Probably feels the need to keep his name before the electorate.



He thinks his idiot supporters who think trump is god will approve I guess and vote for him.


----------



## Nycturne

Joe said:


> I can't believe people looked at this idiot and thought he was worth voting for TWICE lol
> 
> I don't trust your judgement if you voted for this guy TWICE!




An actual conversation I had on the 4th of July back in 2017...

Them: He's going to bring jobs back.
Me: *raises eyebrow*
Them: I'm sorry but it's true.

There's probably as much projection onto Trump that he's competent as there was projection by Trump onto his perceived enemies.


----------



## Herdfan

Cmaier said:


> There is nothing this dude won’t lie about.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1559312970173259784/




Read specifically what she wrote.  She said they were not in possession.  Because they had already returned them.

So he wasn't lying.  Sorry.

Here is some confirmation from news sources you may accept:









						Trump passports taken in FBI search of Mar-a-Lago returned to former president
					

The FBI said in a statement it "follows search and seizure procedures ordered by courts, then returns items that we do not need to be retained for law enforcement purposes."




					www.cbsnews.com
				












						Trump’s passports returned after Mar-a-Lago search, DOJ official says
					

In a message on his social media platform, Trump said the FBI agents who searched his home last week "stole" three passports, including one that he said was expired.




					www.nbcnews.com
				












						What’s up (and what’s not) with the FBI taking Trump’s passports
					

The question isn't why the FBI took Donald Trump's passports; the question is why the former president tried to deceive the public about what happened.




					www.msnbc.com
				






Cmaier said:


> One was expired.
> 
> He may have gotten a special one as President.




Correct.  One was a diplomatic passport.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Read specifically what she wrote.  She said they were not in possession.  Because they had already returned them.
> 
> So he wasn't lying.  Sorry.
> 
> Here is some confirmation from news sources you may accept:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump passports taken in FBI search of Mar-a-Lago returned to former president
> 
> 
> The FBI said in a statement it "follows search and seizure procedures ordered by courts, then returns items that we do not need to be retained for law enforcement purposes."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump’s passports returned after Mar-a-Lago search, DOJ official says
> 
> 
> In a message on his social media platform, Trump said the FBI agents who searched his home last week "stole" three passports, including one that he said was expired.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What’s up (and what’s not) with the FBI taking Trump’s passports
> 
> 
> The question isn't why the FBI took Donald Trump's passports; the question is why the former president tried to deceive the public about what happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correct.  One was a diplomatic passport.




So the language about "stole" was not quite right with respect to the taking of the passports but otherwise Trump was correct about the stuff having been returned.  

Well it must be a relief for the GOP leadership to know that it's not about the former president's passports having been nicked out of fear he was a flight risk.


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> Well it must be a relief for the GOP leadership to know that it's not about the former president's passports having been nicked *out of fear he was a flight risk.*




As long as there's a Denver Boot clamped onto the nose gear of trump's jet, we (and especially the rest of the world) will feel a little better.


----------



## Cmaier

If true, that is essentially a confession to committing 18 USC 1519.


----------



## Citysnaps

Cmaier said:


> If true, that is essentially a confession to committing 18 USC 1519.
> 
> View attachment 16785




Jeeez, that's a pretty lame excuse.

And hah... trump (of alll people) all of a sudden on-board with the notion of acting in good-faith and in bipartisan spirit. That's a real knee-slapper. Glad I wasn't drinking cold milk when I read that.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The thing about the passports - or anything Trump could whine about - you have to understand, investigations are complex. It doesn't need to make sense to you or I why they were taken. It needs to make sense to the people investigating. For instance, if Trump had papers next to his wallet, or favorite watch on top of a dresser, they may seem unrelated, but it also would show that Trump couldn't have acted like he didn't know where there were documents. If he routinely accessed his passports, having classified documents stored right next to them would show a connection of some fashion between the two.

It was explained by Frank Figliuzzi that this is routine. You seize materials, there's a "filter team" that goes through them and keeps what is relevant and returns what isn't, or is no longer necessary to the investigation. In other words, this is typical and routine, its just that Trump and his ilk want to make it nefarious. As is usually the case.


Cmaier said:


> If true, that is essentially a confession to committing 18 USC 1519.
> 
> View attachment 16785




Even if this is true - so what? This is more gaslighting. Trump also doesn't trust his own appointees. Jeff Sessions, Bill Barr, Chris Wray, any federal judge he appoints, etc. We're not going to live in a world where only people who agree with your politics are going to be your judges, jury or leaders. That's not how this works, never was.

You don't get to say I'm not going to follow the law because I think the judge is a republican, or I'm not going to comply with federal officers because Biden appointed Merrick Garland and I don't like Biden or liberals.

Also, refusing to turn over those documents for fear they could end up in the J6 committee's hands is also obstruction.

"in spite of his laywers' claims of executive privelege"

He doesn't have executive privilege. He's not the president, that power lies with President Biden. This also goes against the claim he declassified the documents. Ok, then turn over your declassified material. And even if it was "protected" by executive privilege, it would be Biden and not Trump or his lawyers that would have the say in whether the Archives can turn that information over.

This is all a joke.


----------



## AG_PhamD

First Trump says they were not provided a copy of the warrant and seizure list- that turned out not to be true. Then he claims documents were planted by the FBI. Then it turns into everything removed from the White House was declassified per an alleged  standing order. Then it was everybody brings work documents home from time to time. So…. the constant changing of stories doesn’t inspire confidence that there isn’t something nefarious going on with the Trump administration.

And there’s the claims the Trump lawyers were cooperative and the documents could have been subpoenaed but the DOJ claims otherwise and that subpoenas had been issued. I suppose there can be different ideas as to what cooperation is and debates as to what falls under privilege, but given all the mistruths and half truths it really makes you wonder. 

On the other hand, it’s interesting they seized his passports. I can only assume this was accidental (granted a seemingly difficult one to make but I don’t know why they would want them) but it’s my understanding if they wanted to do it legally the FBI would need a specific court order, so the flight risk allegations are not realistic. It is a bit troubling that the FBI returned the passports and then tweeted that they were “not in possession” of them making it appear they never had them. This will surely feed conspiracies. 

It is rather silly Trump is asking how he can help “turn down the temperature”. While I commend him doing this because it’s the right thing to do, as he failed to do in a reasonable timeframe or manner on 1/6, everything he, his lawyers, and his people have said have only served to instigate aggression towards the FBI and DOJ. And let’s not forget we the public very well may have never known about the raid in the first place.


----------



## Citysnaps

citypix said:


> In somewhat related news... Today lawyers for Giuliani were advised he's a target of a criminal investigation in Georgia's election meddling inquiry.
> 
> I wouldn't be shocked if Lindsey G is up next, now that his attempt to have a subpoena (investigating election meddling) quashed was overruled by a Federal judge.
> 
> Georgia isn't fooling around.  Refreshing!




Speaking of Georgia...there's even more good news. This time from a judge in Colorado who today ordered a trump lawyer apparently living in Colorado to appear before a Fulton County Georgia grand jury investigating trump meddling and election fraud claims.  The Georgia hits keep on coming. 









						Colorado judge says Jenna Ellis must appear before 2020 election scheme grand jury probe | CNN Politics
					

A judge in Colorado said on Tuesday that Jenna Ellis, an attorney who represented Donald Trump during and after the 2020 election, must appear before the Fulton County, Georgia, grand jury investigating the former President's election schemes.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Eric

citypix said:


> Speaking of Georgia...there's even more good news. This time from a judge in Colorado who today ordered a trump lawyer apparently living in Colorado to appear before a Fulton County Georgia grand jury investigating trump meddling and election fraud claims.  The Georgia hits keep on coming.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Colorado judge says Jenna Ellis must appear before 2020 election scheme grand jury probe | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> A judge in Colorado said on Tuesday that Jenna Ellis, an attorney who represented Donald Trump during and after the 2020 election, must appear before the Fulton County, Georgia, grand jury investigating the former President's election schemes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com



They're saying all roads here will inevitably lead back to Trump as the orchestrator of it, if that's the case it'll be the third criminal case he'll be the target of. But I'm sure they're all just Liberal witch hunts.


----------



## Citysnaps

Eric said:


> They're saying all roads here will inevitably lead back to Trump as the orchestrator of it, if that's the case it'll be the third criminal case he'll be the target of. But I'm sure they're all just Liberal witch hunts.




Liz Cheney's on a mission. She may lose tonight in Wyoming, but I think that will springboard her presidential run, being able to snag dems and repubs sick and tired of trump's spell over a huge swath of the country.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> We're not going to live in a world where only people who agree with your politics are going to be your judges, jury or leaders. That's not how this works, never was.
> 
> You don't get to say I'm not going to follow the law because I think the judge is a republican, or I'm not going to comply with federal officers because Biden appointed Merrick Garland and I don't like Biden or liberals.




How long does this schmuck get to keep redefining "rule of law" for himself?  Hope the real thing is closing in on him.


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> How long does this schmuck get to keep redefining "rule of law" for himself?  Hope the real thing is closing in on him.




Hopefully when he's frog-marched out of Mar a Lago in handcuffs.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I love the outrage from folks like Peter Navarro and Scott Perry when they are treated exactly the same as any other American facing similar charges. Navarro acted shocked that he was handcuffed and booked before being released. That is literally what an arrest _is_. If that hadn’t happen, you wouldn’t have been able to say you were arrested…. They almost seem more angry at not getting special treatment than they are the underlying charges or legal reasonings for their situations.

In Scott Perry’s case, Fox propagandists just express shock that “they took his phone!”

Law enforcement seize people’s phones all the time. They don’t express outrage if a drug dealer or random corporate money launderer has their phone taken. Why should these guys have special treatment?

That’s what’s lost on these creeps during this whole Trump fiasco. Every time they say “they could have worked with him” or “found another way to handle this”, they ignore the fact that the DoJ did just that, and that if anything, Trump was treated far better and given more patience than any of us would be. Instead of expressing outrage at the DoJ for searching Trump’s home, they should express outrage that it was such a hard decision for Garland and that they didn’t do it sooner.


----------



## Runs For Fun

citypix said:


> Liz Cheney's on a mission. She may lose tonight in Wyoming, but I think that will springboard her presidential run, being able to snag dems and repubs sick and tired of trump's spell over a huge swath of the country.



Got to give her huge props. Credit where credit is due 
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1559727091041574912/


----------



## Citysnaps

Runs For Fun said:


> Got to give her huge props. Credit where credit is due
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1559727091041574912/




For sure on that.

And looking at tonight's Wyoming election numbers, it appears roughly 2/3rds of republican voters (likely more as Cheney no doubt snagged some dem votes) are still under the influence of trump's spell. Beyond words.


----------



## lizkat

citypix said:


> For sure on that.
> 
> And looking at tonight's Wyoming election numbers, it appears roughly 2/3rds of republican voters (likely more as Cheney no doubt snagged some dem votes) are still under the influence of trump's spell. Beyond words.




It's depressing, even knowing in advance how stacked the odds were against a Cheney win in that primary.

Per a Boston Globe piece from today, some stats on the lean of Wyoming:

the state went 70%-29% for Trump in 2020.​​there are 280,000 registered voters [total pop 576k], of which 70% = R, 16% D and 13% indie.​​So even with some crossovers from D to R in that primary, some indie votes and some anti-Trump votes,  the prospects for Liz Cheney to prevail were bleak and she was well aware of it.
​Past that, the Wyoming GOP state apparatus is thoroughly Trumpified, e.g. its current chairman was at the 1/6 insurrection and not just in the public areas of the permitted events before the incursion.   Also, and although the far right group Oathkeepers is not now thought to have much of an in-person presence in Wyoming any more,   the GOP chair's name was reported to have been in a membership list that had leaked last fall. That list included data on a couple hundred Wyoming citizens who had apparently belonged to the group at some point, likely before the high profile standoffs vs federal law enforcement, like at the Bundy Ranch in southeastern Nevada.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Runs For Fun said:


> Got to give her huge props. Credit where credit is due
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1559727091041574912/




No claims of a rigged and stolen Wyoming primary? No inflaming the tensions and planning a massive protest the day the new congress is sworn in next year for a “normal tourist visit”?

I have my issues with people like Cheney allowing Trump to get as far down the gutter as he did, but at least she spoke out. Better late than never. I can handle her shitty legislative stances and conservatism. That’s a known beast that will not change. It’s a known quantity. One could argue we need conservatives like Cheney, even if we disagree with her beliefs, to balance the democrats. Each side will always have opponents, and one party rule isn’t good for anyone. If we’re going to have opposition, it should be sane and fought based on the voters will and meaningful legislation, not conspiracy theories and violence.

I hope Liz Cheney continues to take the fight to Trump and I pray Trump and the GOP long for the days when Cheney was a rank and file Republican member of Congress. I would sacrifice my political beliefs and vote for a sane Cheney presidency. And because she’s rational and not an idiot, I can see her working across the aisle. If she ever did become president, I think she’s smart enough to know that would be in everyone’s best interest.


----------



## DT

Joe said:


> I can't believe people looked at this idiot and thought he was worth voting for TWICE lol
> 
> I don't trust your judgement if you voted for this guy TWICE!




Yeah, I have a 1-10 [most] sliding intolerance scale for supporters, back in 2016, OK, maybe a 2 early in his campaign, mix it up the political status quo, the ol' "a business man can run the country better" trope, and yeah, that's all kind of silly, but I got it. As the Orange Turd's campaign rolled along, and it was clear was a shitty human being he was, I moved up to about a 4, but it was hard to "unsell" the promise of tax breaks to the middle-upper class white folks.

After 4 f***ing years?  My scale was at an 8 but with the possibility of some kind of penance from the '16 trump voters, "_Wow, that was a mistake, won't do that again!_", that the people financially motivated priced their soul too high, that the christians saw that the "man" they voted for was nothing of the sort, that this weak excuse for a business leader, a man of faith, a family man, was all wrong.

You voted for him in 2020?  I'm at a 10, I'm done with you.

You CONTINUE to support him? After what he's done in the last couple of years?  Fly Drump 2024 flags?  I'm at a 15, seriously fuck you.


----------



## Huntn

AG_PhamD said:


> First Trump says they were not provided a copy of the warrant and seizure list- that turned out not to be true. Then he claims documents were planted by the FBI. Then it turns into everything removed from the White House was declassified per an alleged  standing order. Then it was everybody brings work documents home from time to time. So…. the constant changing of stories doesn’t inspire confidence that there isn’t something nefarious going on with the Trump administration.
> 
> And there’s the claims the Trump lawyers were cooperative and the documents could have been subpoenaed but the DOJ claims otherwise and that subpoenas had been issued. I suppose there can be different ideas as to what cooperation is and debates as to what falls under privilege, but given all the mistruths and half truths it really makes you wonder.
> 
> On the other hand, it’s interesting they seized his passports. I can only assume this was accidental (granted a seemingly difficult one to make but I don’t know why they would want them) but it’s my understanding if they wanted to do it legally the FBI would need a specific court order, so the flight risk allegations are not realistic. It is a bit troubling that the FBI returned the passports and then tweeted that they were “not in possession” of them making it appear they never had them. This will surely feed conspiracies.
> 
> It is rather silly Trump is asking how he can help “turn down the temperature”. While I commend him doing this because it’s the right thing to do, as he failed to do in a reasonable timeframe or manner on 1/6, everything he, his lawyers, and his people have said have only served to instigate aggression towards the FBI and DOJ. And let’s not forget we the public very well may have never known about the raid in the first place.



_Then it turns into everything removed from the White House was declassified per an alleged  standing order._

I’m assuming this is something that came from Trump or Trump forces. The last I read:









						FBI seized 11 sets of classified documents in Trump Mar-a-Lago raid
					

The FBI reportedly recovered 11 sets of classified documents from former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate following its raid earlier this week.




					nypost.com


----------



## fooferdoggie

Huntn said:


> _Then it turns into everything removed from the White House was declassified per an alleged  standing order._
> 
> I’m assuming this is something that came from Trump or Trump forces. The last I read:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FBI seized 11 sets of classified documents in Trump Mar-a-Lago raid
> 
> 
> The FBI reportedly recovered 11 sets of classified documents from former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate following its raid earlier this week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com



yes the declassify fairy went over them.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Correct. One was a diplomatic passport.



That was the only one of the three that has not expired. I would have thought it would have to be turned in once his term of office was over. I guess that will be another case for later.


----------



## Joe

DT said:


> Yeah, I have a 1-10 [most] sliding intolerance scale for supporters, back in 2016, OK, maybe a 2 early in his campaign, mix it up the political status quo, the ol' "a business man can run the country better" trope, and yeah, that's all kind of silly, but I got it. As the Orange Turd's campaign rolled along, and it was clear was a shitty human being he was, I moved up to about a 4, but it was hard to "unsell" the promise of tax breaks to the middle-upper class white folks.
> 
> After 4 f***ing years?  My scale was at an 8 but with the possibility of some kind of penance from the '16 trump voters, "_Wow, that was a mistake, won't do that again!_", that the people financially motivated priced their soul too high, that the christians saw that the "man" they voted for was nothing of the sort, that this weak excuse for a business leader, a man of faith, a family man, was all wrong.
> 
> You voted for him in 2020?  I'm at a 10, I'm done with you.
> 
> You CONTINUE to support him? After what he's done in the last couple of years?  Fly Drump 2024 flags?  I'm at a 15, seriously fuck you.




Same, I have zero tolerance for Trump supporters at this point. I want nothing to fucking do with you if you voted for him in 2020. I want nothing to do with people still supporting that trash today. Sorry not sorry!


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> That was the only one of the three that has not expired. I would have thought it would have to be turned in once his term of office was over. I guess that will be another case for later.




Former presidents get to carry a diplomatic passport but they have to get a new one upon leaving office, since the original one states that the bearer is the President.   Possible endorsements along this line are President, President Elect, former President...  and same goes for the vice presidential slot.

One assumes (or should we?) that Trump has bothered to file for an updated passport.  Of course if he is still so deep in denial that he really believes he's still the US President, and so thinks that his former diplomatic passport will suffice,  he's in for a surprise whenever he deplanes in.... exile?


----------



## Roller

GermanSuplex said:


> No claims of a rigged and stolen Wyoming primary? No inflaming the tensions and planning a massive protest the day the new congress is sworn in next year for a “normal tourist visit”?
> 
> I have my issues with people like Cheney allowing Trump to get as far down the gutter as he did, but at least she spoke out. Better late than never. I can handle her shitty legislative stances and conservatism. That’s a known beast that will not change. It’s a known quantity. One could argue we need conservatives like Cheney, even if we disagree with her beliefs, to balance the democrats. Each side will always have opponents, and one party rule isn’t good for anyone. If we’re going to have opposition, it should be sane and fought based on the voters will and meaningful legislation, not conspiracy theories and violence.
> 
> I hope Liz Cheney continues to take the fight to Trump and I pray Trump and the GOP long for the days when Cheney was a rank and file Republican member of Congress. I would sacrifice my political beliefs and vote for a sane Cheney presidency. And because she’s rational and not an idiot, I can see her working across the aisle. If she ever did become president, I think she’s smart enough to know that would be in everyone’s best interest.



It’d be interesting if Cheney made a statement about “irregularities” in the Wyoming election to see how the Rs would respond. Inevitably, they’d call BS, which she could throw back at them about 2020.


----------



## Citysnaps

My take is Cheney's OK with losing last night's election. And might have viewed it as a necessary formality she needed to go through.

I think what's driving her are presidential aspirations and being able to take trump down hard along the way.


----------



## fooferdoggie

I was listening to how people think trump is right below Jesus. Well I am good with that he needs crucified too.


----------



## AG_PhamD

Joe said:


> Same, I have zero tolerance for Trump supporters at this point. I want nothing to fucking do with you if you voted for him in 2020. I want nothing to do with people still supporting that trash today. Sorry not sorry!




I’m not sure why people that love him would actually want to vote for him when it’s pretty much guaranteed if elected his entire term will be filled with scandals and alleged (yet likely) crimes, likely impeding him from accomplishing much of anything. And the entire 2024 election will inevitably be entirely about Trump and nothing about actual policy, which surely will not work in his favor. Why would you ever put someone up for POTUS with so much baggage?


----------



## Eric

AG_PhamD said:


> I’m not sure why people that love him would actually want to vote for him when it’s pretty much guaranteed if elected his entire term will be filled with scandals and alleged (yet likely) crimes, likely impeding him from accomplishing much of anything. And the entire 2024 election will inevitably be entirely about Trump and nothing about actual policy, which surely will not work in his favor. Why would you ever put someone up for POTUS with so much baggage?



Frankly, they scare me. Those driving around with all the flags and guns seem so angry at the world and anyone who disagrees with them that it doesn't feel safe to be anywhere near them. I do know people who support Trump and are capable of leaving politics at the door though, I will always get along with those willing to do that and I'll extend the same courtesy of not blabbing about my politics.


----------



## Eric

Wow  

“Everyone's saying no”: Trump hires Florida insurance lawyer as top attorneys refuse to work for him​








						Trump hires Florida insurance lawyer as top attorneys turn him down
					

Another Trump lawyer is a former OAN anchor who pushed election conspiracy theories that got the network sued.




					www.salon.com


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Wow
> 
> “Everyone's saying no”: Trump hires Florida insurance lawyer as top attorneys refuse to work for him​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump hires Florida insurance lawyer as top attorneys turn him down
> 
> 
> Another Trump lawyer is a former OAN anchor who pushed election conspiracy theories that got the network sued.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.salon.com




I wonder if he’s looking for a patent litigator.


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> I wonder if he’s looking for a patent litigator.



I'm thinking more like the law offices of Dewey, Cheretum & Howe, the type you see on the morning news looking for accident victims.


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> I wonder if he’s looking for a patent litigator.




Heh,  one with the sense to demand cash on the barrel head up front, I'd hope.

Even so, imagine the stress of trying to herd Donald Trump as a client.  The guy is incorrigibly impulsive. 

Seems like all an attorney can really get from working with Trump is name recognition for sure (for better or worse!)  and of course the chance to get careless and do something Trump wants that leads to risk of disbarment.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> Wow
> 
> “Everyone's saying no”: Trump hires Florida insurance lawyer as top attorneys refuse to work for him​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump hires Florida insurance lawyer as top attorneys turn him down
> 
> 
> Another Trump lawyer is a former OAN anchor who pushed election conspiracy theories that got the network sued.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.salon.com



cant imagine why I mean the chance of loosing your license and not get paid has to be a deterrent. they could start a whole new college for lawyers just to keep up with trumps demands and turnover.


----------



## mollyc

trump needs jimmy mcgill


----------



## Edd

We’re all thinking this is who Trump needs, right?


----------



## Joe

AG_PhamD said:


> *Why would you ever put someone up for POTUS with so much baggage?*




Fear

I saw a billboard on the way to work that said "It's not politics. ITS ABOUT SURVIVAL. Vote Republican"


----------



## Edd

mollyc said:


> trump needs jimmy mcgill



Damn you! See we were thinking it !


----------



## Cmaier

Edd said:


> Damn you! See we were thinking it !



The episode where he does a consultation with the guy who wants to patent the inadvertently-sexual potty-training toilet is the best thing ever if you happen to be a patent attorney


----------



## Renzatic

Cmaier said:


> I wonder if he’s looking for a patent litigator.




Make sure you're paid up front.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> Wow
> 
> “Everyone's saying no”: Trump hires Florida insurance lawyer as top attorneys refuse to work for him​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump hires Florida insurance lawyer as top attorneys turn him down
> 
> 
> Another Trump lawyer is a former OAN anchor who pushed election conspiracy theories that got the network sued.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.salon.com




I have no doubt there are lawyers willing to defend him for the high profile if nothing else.  However, he's gained a reputation for not paying his bills.  That might be the biggest part of the "pass" decision.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I have no doubt there are lawyers willing to defend him for the high profile if nothing else.  However, he's gained a reputation for not paying his bills.  That might be the biggest part of the "pass" decision.



not sure if trump really would look good on your resume unless you want the bottom of the barrel clients.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

fooferdoggie said:


> not sure if trump really would look good on your resume unless you want the bottom of the barrel clients.




He still has a lot (but growing less by the day) of supporters.  Another reason they may not want to take the case is the parade of people he has thrown under the bus who then become death threat targets.  There are plenty of reasons to not take the case that have nothing to do with his guilt or innocence.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Edd said:


> We’re all thinking this is who Trump needs, right?
> 
> View attachment 16819




Trump may be a bridge too far even for Saul. I mean, Saul likes to get paid for his work.

Without risk of spoiling the series finale this week, I can see Trump ending up like old Jimmy McGill did.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Oh shi-
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1560061682063331328/


----------



## Cmaier

Runs For Fun said:


> Oh shi-
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1560061682063331328/



They subpoenaed all the documents that NARA provided to the Jan 6th committee. It looks like the timing and structure of the subpoena is such that it was designed to avoid needing to ask Biden to waive executive privilege on the documents (since he is the current executive).  Doing this sooner could have been problematic, because the Justice Department doesn’t want to talk to Biden at all about the investigation, and asking about executive privilege would naturally have meant crossing that line.


----------



## Eric

Poll: Majority of Americans Approve of Search on Mar-a-Lago for Files Trump Took



> Among all survey respondents, 57 percent of Americans say they disapprove of Trump taking nuclear weapons-related documents to his Mar-a-Lago estate. Those who voted for Trump in the 2020 presidential election, however, were split on that question, with 35 percent saying they approved of him potentially taking such documents, and 36 percent saying they didn’t (19 percent were unsure how to feel about it).
> 
> The inability of a large segment of Trump voters to acknowledge that such actions could be seen as improper in spite of most voters overall condemning them perhaps explains why his favorability rating was relatively and statistically unchanged compared to a previous Economist/YouGov poll conducted last week.
> 
> According to the most recent poll, only 39 percent of voters have a favorable view of Trump, with 54 percent giving him an unfavorable rating. Last week, 40 percent said they viewed Trump favorably, with 56 percent giving him an unfavorable grade.


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> Poll: Majority of Americans Approve of Search on Mar-a-Lago for Files Trump Took




So little wonder why the Trump-hijacked GOP try to lock down ability to fiddle w/ election results via state legislation.  The guy they've nominally retained as head of party grows ever less popular...  even as last time out the box their entire platform was fealty to him personally.


----------



## Cmaier

This is surprising:





__





						Loading…
					





					www.nytimes.com


----------



## shadow puppet

Cmaier said:


> This is surprising:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



Paywall.  What's it say?


----------



## mollyc

Judge Orders Justice Dept. to Redact and Release Version of Affidavit Used to Search Trump’s Home​The hearing emerged from an effort last week by a coalition of news organizations to unseal the affidavit submitted in support of the search warrant.​Aug. 18, 2022, 2:20 p.m. ET

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — A federal judge on Thursday ordered the government to redact and ultimately release a version of the highly sensitive warrant affidavit that was used to justify a search by the F.B.I. last week of former President Donald J. Trump’s private home and club.

Ruling from the bench, the judge, Bruce E. Reinhart, said that there were portions of the affidavit that “could be presumptively unsealed.”

“Whether those portions would be meaningful for the public or the media,” he added, was not for him to decide.
Judge Reinhart’s surprising decision struck a middle course between the Justice Department, which wanted to keep the affidavit entirely under wraps as its investigation into Mr. Trump’s handling of classified documents continued, and a group of news organizations, which requested that it be released in full to the public.
Warrant affidavits — which are written and sworn to by federal agents before a search takes place — contain detailed information about criminal investigations and are almost always kept under seal until charges are filed.
As part of his ruling, Judge Reinhart ordered the government to send him under seal proposed redactions to the warrant affidavit by next Thursday at noon. He said he would review the suggestions and decide if he agreed with them.
“This is going to be a considered, careful process,” Judge Reinhart said.
Patricia Mazzei is the Miami bureau chief, covering Florida and Puerto Rico. She writes about breaking news, politics, disasters and the quirks of life in South Florida. She joined The Times in 2017 after a decade at The Miami Herald.
Alan Feuer covers extremism and political violence. He joined The Times in 1999. @alanfeuer


----------



## Eric

mollyc said:


> Judge Orders Justice Dept. to Redact and Release Version of Affidavit Used to Search Trump’s Home​The hearing emerged from an effort last week by a coalition of news organizations to unseal the affidavit submitted in support of the search warrant.​Aug. 18, 2022, 2:20 p.m. ET
> 
> WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — A federal judge on Thursday ordered the government to redact and ultimately release a version of the highly sensitive warrant affidavit that was used to justify a search by the F.B.I. last week of former President Donald J. Trump’s private home and club.
> 
> Ruling from the bench, the judge, Bruce E. Reinhart, said that there were portions of the affidavit that “could be presumptively unsealed.”
> 
> “Whether those portions would be meaningful for the public or the media,” he added, was not for him to decide.
> Judge Reinhart’s surprising decision struck a middle course between the Justice Department, which wanted to keep the affidavit entirely under wraps as its investigation into Mr. Trump’s handling of classified documents continued, and a group of news organizations, which requested that it be released in full to the public.
> Warrant affidavits — which are written and sworn to by federal agents before a search takes place — contain detailed information about criminal investigations and are almost always kept under seal until charges are filed.
> As part of his ruling, Judge Reinhart ordered the government to send him under seal proposed redactions to the warrant affidavit by next Thursday at noon. He said he would review the suggestions and decide if he agreed with them.
> “This is going to be a considered, careful process,” Judge Reinhart said.
> Patricia Mazzei is the Miami bureau chief, covering Florida and Puerto Rico. She writes about breaking news, politics, disasters and the quirks of life in South Florida. She joined The Times in 2017 after a decade at The Miami Herald.
> Alan Feuer covers extremism and political violence. He joined The Times in 1999. @alanfeuer



Wow, sounds like a win for Trump here, even though it goes against precedent. Wonder if it was one of his judges. Will be interesting to see what comes of it.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The real question is, does this help or hurt the investigation? Trump and his cult were going to come up with a narrative no matter what. If it remained sealed, it would be “what are they hiding?”. If it was released in full, they’d claim “this is proof it’s much ado about nothing and this did not warrant searching Trump’s home”.

Since they’ll get a redacted version, they’ll probably argue both - the affidavit is a weak pretense for the search warrant, and we need to know the names of those that have been redacted and other parts that are being kept hidden.

There’s no way there’s anything that could make this cult go “Yeah, that’s pretty serious, guess we were wrong about our guy.”


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Wow, sounds like a win for Trump here, even though it goes against precedent. Wonder if it was one of his judges. Will be interesting to see what comes of it.



It’s not really a win for Trump.  Some things:

1) Trump’s lawyer was there, but they actually took no position in court on whether to release the affidavit. This is because (2) even though trump claimed to want it released, he actually didn’t want it released. Trump-world figured there was propaganda value in claiming to want it released and they rightfully assumed there was no chance it would actually happen. (3) Nothing in the affidavit is going to help him. It’s going to make him look very bad.  (4) Not much will be released. The redactions will leave out the names of witnesses, what the witnesses said (to the extent that knowing what the witnesses said would help Trump identify who the witnesses are), etc.  It’s not going to be much.


----------



## Cmaier

Also: the judge didn’t order anything released. He said he was “inclined” to order (at some future date) at least some stuff released, and wanted to see redactions within a week.  No order issued other than the requirement for the DoJ to produce a redacted version (which is actually something the DoJ proposed in its motion as an alternative).  

The press got this a bit wrong, looks like.


----------



## Cmaier

And, finally: if an unsealed version of the affidavit DOES get released, it will likely happen pretty close to (and before) the mid-term elections.  That is not something that Republicans actually want to happen.


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> It’s not really a win for Trump.  Some things:
> 
> 1) Trump’s lawyer was there, but they actually took no position in court on whether to release the affidavit. This is because (2) even though trump claimed to want it released, he actually didn’t want it released. Trump-world figured there was propaganda value in claiming to want it released and they rightfully assumed there was no chance it would actually happen. (3) Nothing in the affidavit is going to help him. It’s going to make him look very bad.  (4) Not much will be released. The redactions will leave out the names of witnesses, what the witnesses said (to the extent that knowing what the witnesses said would help Trump identify who the witnesses are), etc.  It’s not going to be much.



Fair point, I suppose for Trump there's no winning as he's the target of this investigation. Republicans are looking for the leaks as targets though and they'll do everything possible to read between the lines, then you'll see their faces plastered all over Fox News. Hopefully, whatever they decide to release will at least keep their sources and any indications redacted.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Fair point, I suppose for Trump there's no winning as he's the target of this investigation. Republicans are looking for the leaks as targets though and they'll do everything possible to read between the lines, then you'll see their faces plastered all over Fox News. Hopefully, whatever they decide to release will at least keep their sources and any indications redacted.



Of course, one way to mitigate against the problem of witnesses being identified and the investigatory roadmap being revealed is if the DoJ goes ahead and gets its indictment(s) before the document is released.  They ordinarily would never do such a thing within 90 days of midterms, but if the court isn’t leaving them much choice here….


----------



## Eric

It's fun watching CNN seemingly appalled at this decision, even though they themselves have put in for a request to see it.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> It's fun watching CNN seemingly appalled at this decision, even though they themselves have put in for a request to see it.




It’s also not even a decision yet.  TV reporters bad.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

It seems like Trump continuing to run his mouth just makes things worse than the previous time he ran his mouth.  And he runs his mouth a lot.  

I don't want to claim 4D chess being played by his opponents just yet, but it sure seems like they have run through a lot of Trump World choose your own adventures in preparation for all this and the decisions and counters are coming swiftly.  "Trump will probably do/say......so we should be ready to counter with....."  They know his tactics well by this point, as do a lot of us.  I think all he's got is stepping up the absurdity of his lies knowing his supporters will do zero fact-checking.  Unfortunately for him the justice system seems to finally not give a fuck about his supporters.


----------



## Cmaier

NYTimes just issued a correction. “”He ordered a redaction but hasn’t decided to release it.”


----------



## Joe

GermanSuplex said:


> There’s no way there’s anything that could make this cult go “Yeah, that’s pretty serious, guess we were wrong about our guy.”




The cult is still defending him. Nothing will change these people's mind.


----------



## Herdfan

Joe said:


> The cult is still defending him. Nothing will change these people's mind.




To be fair, is there anything that would change your mind about Biden?  Or Hillary?


----------



## Eric

Joe said:


> The cult is still defending him. Nothing will change these people's mind.



Yeah, we have to just write off a certain percentage of those who are brainwashed, he can eat puppies in front of them and blame Biden and they would buy it.

It's the rest that he would need to appeal to in order to win an election, those who were willing to give him a chance in his first term and then rejected him in no uncertain terms for the second. I don't see how he can ever win them back with as each week he's dogged by new allegations and legal challenges.

Democrats need do nothing more than simply sit back and watch Republicans implode over it, this during a time when they were all but guaranteed sweeping victories in the midterms. They'll still likely make gains but their chances are quickly going down hill.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> To be fair, is there anything that would change your mind about Biden?  Or Hillary?



I can tell you if my personal hero Obama (same can be said for Biden):
1) Bragged about grabbing a women by their pussy
2) Attempted to steal an election he clearly lost
3) Deliberately and secretly stole top secret documents and tried to cover it up
It would be a dealbreaker for me, no matter who did it. 

It's also worth noting that Trump is genuinely a terrible person as well, treats everyone who disagrees with him like shit and puts out political hits on them. By contrast, people like Obama would often ask Republicans he disagreed with to the WH to get their view of things, I've heard of other Republicans doing the same. Character matters.


----------



## mollyc

I've been a republican my entire life, as are my parents and husband. I did vote for Trump in 2016 but had to switch sides for 2020. It pained me to do so, but every day I become more and more glad that I did not vote for Trump a second time. One vote doesn't change who I am....but Trump is just wretched.

Also, I really didn't like Trump in 2016, but I liked Hillary even less. In my opinion, there were no good options that year.


----------



## shadow puppet

mollyc said:


> Also, I really didn't like Trump in 2016, but I liked Hillary even less. In my opinion, there were no good options that year.



I agree but I voted for Hillary just to take a vote away from Trump.


----------



## Eric

mollyc said:


> I've been a republican my entire life, as are my parents and husband. I did vote for Trump in 2016 but had to switch sides for 2020. It pained me to do so, but every day I become more and more glad that I did not vote for Trump a second time. One vote doesn't change who I am....but Trump is just wretched.
> 
> Also, I really didn't like Trump in 2016, but I liked Hillary even less. In my opinion, there were no good options that year.



Right, missing the days when we used to care about the character of the president. I know not everyone here will agree but Bush & Reagan were decent human beings, also candidates like McCain and Romney as well. We just disagree on the issues and I can handle that, feels like such a different time now that things are so divisive.


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> And, finally: if an unsealed version of the affidavit DOES get released, it will likely happen pretty close to (and before) the mid-term elections.  That is not something that Republicans actually want to happen.




They might.   They'd like it for the issue in case they lose some elections they now expect to win.   they don't really give a fig about Trump though.  It's all about keeping his base on board.   Stirred up = good in their book.


----------



## Joe

Herdfan said:


> To be fair, is there anything that would change your mind about Biden?  Or Hillary?






Eric said:


> I can tell you if my personal hero Obama (same can be said for Biden):
> 1) Bragged about grabbing a women by their pussy
> 2) Attempted to steal an election he clearly lost
> 3) Deliberately and secretly stole top secret documents and tried to cover it up
> It would be a dealbreaker for me, no matter who did it.
> 
> It's also worth noting that Trump is genuinely a terrible person as well, treats everyone who disagrees with him like shit and puts out political hits on them. By contrast, people like Obama would often ask Republicans he disagreed with to the WH to get their view of things, I've heard of other Republicans doing the same. Character matters.




Pretty much this. I don't worship politicians. I'm not in a cult. You won't find a single political item on my vehicle or in my home. 

If Biden was acting like Trump right now I'd want him out too...but Republicans don't do that. Most of them double down on the crazy. I don't understand what goes on in Republicans mind that make them have this cult like mentality. It's bizarre.  

Republicans scream about needing their guns for a corrupt government, then go all out to make sure they get that corrupt government by defending shit stains like Trump. The math aint mathing, as the kids on tik tok say.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> To be fair, is there anything that would change your mind about Biden?  Or Hillary?




Yeah, if they acted like Trump. If they were dumb as a door knob and had brains the size of peas and egos the size of mountains. If their Twitter feed read like a deranged adolescent lunatic. If they lied like there was no tomorrow. If they demanded someone release their birth certificate while hiding their tax returns. If they fomented a mob to storm the Capitol to overturn the election.

Last time I checked, Obama invited Trump to the White House and Hillary conceded the morning after the election. You think Trump ever had the basic human decency to do the same? That ALONE would make me turn on virtually any politician in a second. And that’s barely scratching the surface of the hot stinking dumpster pile of maggot shit Trump has pulled.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> Yeah, we have to just write off a certain percentage of those who are brainwashed, he can eat puppies in front of them and blame Biden and they would buy it.
> 
> It's the rest that he would need to appeal to in order to win an election, those who were willing to give him a chance in his first term and then rejected him in no uncertain terms for the second. I don't see how he can ever win them back with as each week he's dogged by new allegations and legal challenges.
> 
> Democrats need do nothing more than simply sit back and watch Republicans implode over it, this during a time when they were all but guaranteed sweeping victories in the midterms. They'll still likely make gains but their chances are quickly going down hill.




Yep. One thing republicans forget - even if Trump has 75% of republicans in his corner… that’s not the majority of Americans, that’s a majority of a minority.

A minority of people can make a huge difference when they have a good cause. Problem is, we’re dealing with a minority who just want to win, and that’s about the long and short of their stance. Even the few policy stances they actually take - and there ain’t many of them - are all revolved around keeping and maintaining power.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> To be fair, is there anything that would change your mind about Biden? Or Hillary?




That's easy. I'd rather neither ran.  But that's because I'm not a member of a professional political party that demands lockstep loyalty and worship of their candidate.

People I *could* get behind are Pete Buttigieg, Gavin Newsom, Stacey Abrams, Cory Booker, Bernie Sanders (if he were 20 years younger), and Liz Cheney (with some adjustment). I could probably come up with a dozen or two more. And would love to see Michelle Obama run - but that's not likely.

David Gergen (who I have a ton of respect for) got it right in an interview a few months ago:


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> To be fair, is there anything that would change your mind about Biden?  Or Hillary?



What a ridiculous hypothetical question. I can’t think of any person, family included, about whom my opinion wouldn’t change if their behavior was sufficiently egregious.

To be fair, given that neither Joe Biden nor Hillary Clinton has been credibly accused of actions that even remotely approach what Trump has done or allegedly done in aggregate, I don’t anticipate my opinion of them shifting significantly.


----------



## Eric

citypix said:


> That's easy. I'd rather neither ran.  But that's because I'm not a member of a professional political party that demands lockstep loyalty and worship of their candidate.
> 
> People I *could* get behind are Pete Buttigieg, Gavin Newsom, Stacey Abrams, Cory Booker, Bernie Sanders (if he were 20 years younger), and Liz Cheney (with some adjustment). I could probably come up with a dozen or two more. And would love to see Michelle Obama run - but that's not likely.
> 
> David Gergen (who I have a ton of respect for) got it right in an interview a few months ago:



Gergen is one of my heroes, Republican who is always rational and thoughtful. When I was talking about Obama inviting Republicans to the WH for their POV on certain issues, David Gergen was one of them and you can see why. Of course, right now these people are not welcome in the party of Trump but hopefully they'll right themselves at some point and allow more reasonable voices a seat at the table.


----------



## shadow puppet

I don't think I've seen this shared - apologies in advance if I somehow missed it.

Here’s the search warrant that was approved by a Trump appointed judge claiming 
1. Evidence of a crime 
2. Contraband, fruits of a crime, or other items illegally present. 

Willful retention of national defense information is a BFD.


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> Willful retention of national defense information is a BFD.




Especially because the violation does not depend per se on the classification status of the info in question.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Herdfan said:


> To be fair, is there anything that would change your mind about Biden?  Or Hillary?




In addition to all the great replies, I'd add that I don't have near the same level of hero worship for either of them, or any other politician.  I've never owned a flag that a promoted a politician.  I've never purchased a hat, t-shirt, or other clothing items to support a politician. I pretty much assume ALL politicians are just a bunch of pond scum until they prove differently.  His supporters on the other hand act like he can walk on water.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

mollyc said:


> Also, I really didn't like Trump in 2016, but I liked Hillary even less. In my opinion, there were no good options that year.



Just curious - What about her did you not like? And how much of it was actual vs. the narrative created by Trump of "crooked Hillary" and "nasty woman?" Most people in the know understood that Trump was a liar, cheater and lifelong grifter, so to like Hillary even less she must have done some really terrible things. What were they?


----------



## mac_in_tosh

GermanSuplex said:


> Yeah, if they acted like Trump. If they were dumb as a door knob and had brains the size of peas and egos the size of mountains. If their Twitter feed read like a deranged adolescent lunatic. If they lied like there was no tomorrow. If they demanded someone release their birth certificate while hiding their tax returns. If they fomented a mob to storm the Capitol to overturn the election.
> 
> Last time I checked, Obama invited Trump to the White House and Hillary conceded the morning after the election. You think Trump ever had the basic human decency to do the same? That ALONE would make me turn on virtually any politician in a second. And that’s barely scratching the surface of the hot stinking dumpster pile of maggot shit Trump has pulled.



Let's not forget that he cheated on all three of his wives and paid hush money to a porn star. Used to be that would automatically disqualify a candidate but Trumpers, including the religious right and the family values GOP, didn't even care about that.


----------



## Yoused

Herdfan said:


> To be fair, is there anything that would change your mind about Biden?  Or Hillary?



Nice that you are on a first name basis with Ms. Clinton. I understand that it is the RW technique of putting her down by implying that she does not deserve a surname, but it does seem mighty crass (yes, I will admit that many of us have been similarly crass toward Individual-ONE).

For me, Ms. Clinton and Joe the President were/are no great shakes, but at least they show a reasonable level of maturity and competence clearly lacking in Individual-ONE (whose name I am not "afraid to say" but just totally fucking tired of hearing), but the most important part about them is that _*they have not been steadfastly trying to destroy America*_ the way Individual-ONE has.

The main thing is that I cannot find a practical way to judge the character of almost any Democrat outside of the lens of crazy MFing Republicans who oppose them. Given a choice, the D always wins because even if the alternative R is not an insane moron, they still support a party that is effectively controlled by a gaggle of insane morons. Maybe Ms Clinton or Mr Biden have some dirty laundry, but they are still less evil than any R they have gone up against.


----------



## lizkat

I'm going to settle for the wrap of a piece in The New Republic recently....









						Trump’s Republican Defenders Inexplicably Forgot to Expect the Worst
					

After the Mar-a-Lago search, Trump’s allies were swift to jump into the breach on behalf of the former president. Beginner’s mistake!




					newrepublic.com
				






> A maxim that the writer Tom Scocca first proffered on Twitter in 2016 at the dawn of the Trump era. “Nothing about Trump has ever looked kinda bad at first but turned out OK,” Scocca wrote. “He’s always worse than you thought.”




True then, and doubled down (and more!) ever since then, certainly by 2020.

I can understand someone voting for Trump in 2016 if they were willing to vote for him despite character flaws and simply based on a strong preference for the GOP's policies or platform at that time....  but by 2020 I don't understand anyone sane having gone for that guy again.

A twice-impeached President getting a pass from his party to run again?   Seriously?  One doesn't ask questions about a convention that offers no platform past "Yay Trump!" ??

He was always unfit for the office he held:   too impulsive, self-serving, thoughtless, abusive, malleable.  And that's leaving aside his overt misogyny and clear pandering to racists, xenophobes and would-be or actual practitioners of political violence.   A dangerous brew.  He has left the nation and certainly also his party the worse off for it all.


----------



## Cmaier

I wonder if the DoJ will seal the proposed redactions when it has to file them next thursday.  Given that they will be redacting anything they think would be a problem, I can’t see any justification to file it sealed.


----------



## shadow puppet

The thing about Trump is he takes such great satisfaction, glee even, in dividing and riling up this country as much as possible.  He knows exactly which buttons to push to cause as much damage as possible.  Some of which I doubt we can ever recover.  This I cannot forgive nor ever condone.


----------



## GermanSuplex

There’s a Tweet for everything…

_Donald J. Trump_​_@realdonaldtrump
The real story that Congress, the FBI and all others should be looking into is the leaking of Classified information. Must find leaker now!

Mar 20th 2017 - 7:02:57 AM EST·Twitter for iPhone_


If you go to *TrumpTwitterArchive* and type in “classified”, it’s very clear Trump has at least enough brain cells to understand that the way one handles classified documents is important.

Republicans will make every argument in defense of Trump a game of semantics, loopholes, technicalities, etc. But even if Trump had absolute authority to declassify anything he wanted just by saying it, that has little bearing on the DoJ determining the actual documents were not his, or Trump’s refusal to comply to return them.

And if he uses some procedural argument claiming he thought he could just declassify things at will (which may be partially true, as he did so in the past with no immunity), he can’t claim complete ignorance as to procedure when he sends out stuff like this on his shitty Twitter-knockoff…


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Eric said:


> Right, missing the days when we used to care about the character of the president. I know not everyone here will agree but Bush & Reagan were decent human beings, also candidates like McCain and Romney as well. We just disagree on the issues and I can handle that, feels like such a different time now that things are so divisive.



Why is Bush so silent now? If he cares about the country, a statement critical of Trump's misdeeds and the vitriol he has created would help. I don't know how much, but it would help. He has nothing to lose politically at this point. How can someone in his position just stand by and watch what is happening without at least trying to do something?


----------



## Eric

mac_in_tosh said:


> Why is Bush so silent now? If he cares about the country, a statement critical of Trump's misdeeds and the vitriol he has created would help. I don't know how much, but it would help. He has nothing to lose politically at this point. How can someone in his position just stand by and watch what is happening without at least trying to do something?



I think he just chooses his battles, to be fair he's spoken out against him several times.



			https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-04-20/george-w-bush-condemns-the-trump-era-republican-party


----------



## Yoused

mac_in_tosh said:


> Why is Bush so silent now?




W managed to attain an approval rating of 23% late in his second term, down from a peak around 90% in Sept of '01. The lowest Individual-ONE ever got was 37%, and that was not even after Jan6. W is quiet because he never had the drooling, fawning fanbase like Individual-ONE and so being quiet is far better for him than trying to make his semi-coherent word noises.


----------



## lizkat

mac_in_tosh said:


> Why is Bush so silent now? If he cares about the country, a statement critical of Trump's misdeeds and the vitriol he has created would help. I don't know how much, but it would help. He has nothing to lose politically at this point. How can someone in his position just stand by and watch what is happening without at least trying to do something?




It's traditional for former presidents to stay out of the limelight.

Bush would probably have been willing to let stand the  comment he made about Trump upon departing the inaugural ceremonies of 2016.  With reference in particular to Trump's inaugural address, he apparently said at that time:   "that was some weird sh^t."

In fact though, there are a few times that Bush has subsequently cast shade on Trump publicly, but not by name, usually referencing disappointment in the Republican Party's direction, or sometimes talking about the change in how Americans relate to each other now.   For example when he was giving a speech in Pennsylvania on the 20th anniversary of 9/11,  his remarks included these words:

"In the weeks and months following the 9/11 attacks, I was proud to lead an amazing, resilient, united people. When it comes to the unity of America, those days seem distant from our own. A malign force seems at work in our common life that turns every disagreement into an argument, and every argument into a clash of cultures. So much of our politics has become a naked appeal to anger, fear, and resentment. That leaves us worried about our nation and our future together.​​I come without explanations or solutions. I can only tell you what I have seen.​
On America's day of trial and grief, I saw millions of people instinctively grab for a neighbor's hand and rally to the cause of one another. That is the America I know.​​At a time when religious bigotry might have flowed freely, I saw Americans reject prejudice and embrace people of Muslim faith. That is the nation I know.​​At a time when nativism could have stirred hatred and violence against people perceived as outsiders, I saw Americans reaffirm their welcome to immigrants and refugees. That is the nation I know.​​At a time when some viewed the rising generation as individualistic and decadent, I saw young people embrace an ethic of service and rise to selfless action. That is the nation I know.​​This is not mere nostalgia; it is the truest version of ourselves. It is what we have been -- and what we can be again."​
Of course that was more than just a rebuke to Trump, it was a call to Americans to rethink their part in whatever has come to divide us so harshly.  But Trump clearly took it for what it was, and lashed out at Bush after the speech:

"He shouldn't be lecturing us about anything.  The World Trade Center came down during his watch."​


----------



## GermanSuplex

I’ve heard this line before… when there is no valid defense, then we should just move on to worry about other things. “Why are people worried about me taking a few dollars from a bank vault when China is taking us for billions?”

Then there’s Eric Trump reducing whatever the FBI found as “sole documents for a library”,

And of course, he accuses Biden of signing off on all this. So am I to believe Trump signed off on Roger Stone’s early-morning arrest?






Watching republicans lie to their base makes me want to pull my damn hair out. I watched Dan Bongino tell someone on national TV they were lying when they told him Trump was subpoenaed for the documents before the raid. He’s literally telling a complete lie by calling someone else’s truthful statement a lie.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> I’ve heard this line before… when there is no valid defense, then we should just move on to worry about other things. “Why are people worried about me taking a few dollars from a bank vault when China is taking us for billions?”
> 
> Then there’s Eric Trump reducing whatever the FBI found as “sole documents for a library”,
> 
> And of course, he accuses Biden of signing off on all this. So am I to believe Trump signed off on Roger Stone’s early-morning arrest?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watching republicans lie to their base makes me want to pull my damn hair out. I watched Dan Bongino tell someone on national TV they were lying when they told him Trump was subpoenaed for the documents before the raid. He’s literally telling a complete lie by calling someone else’s truthful statement a lie.




Everything gets reduced to entertainment or outrage.  Either is fine, the masters of ceremonies just want the base to stay engaged and ready to throw money at Trump the next time he needs to put a down payment on legal counsel. 

Honestly the gullibility runs deep in this Trump cult.  Never seen anything else like it.

It all makes me fear for the state of basic literacy in the next generations.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

lizkat said:


> It's traditional for former presidents to stay out of the limelight.



I guess Trump didn't get the message.

I wasn't aware of the attempts by W to address how his party has strayed, but at this point they seem too little. Cheney's video denouncing Trump  didn't help Liz win her election but maybe it woke some Trumpers up and W could do more given the stakes. It would have to come from him and not Clinton or Obama because they would just be denounced as partisan.


----------



## mollyc

mac_in_tosh said:


> Just curious - What about her did you not like? And how much of it was actual vs. the narrative created by Trump of "crooked Hillary" and "nasty woman?" Most people in the know understood that Trump was a liar, cheater and lifelong grifter, so to like Hillary even less she must have done some really terrible things. What were they?



I didn't like Bill Clinton in the 90s and by extension, I have never liked the woman who was married to him. My disdain for her grew over the years, and has zero to do with whatever Trump ever said about her.


----------



## Cmaier

mollyc said:


> I didn't like Bill Clinton in the 90s and by extension, I have never liked the woman who was married to him. My disdain for her grew over the years, and has zero to do with whatever Trump ever said about her.




I found that she was particularly unpopular with white women in western Pennsylvania (mostly Butler county). Every time I’d visit, I’d be bombarded with complaints.  She should have dumped Bill.  She should have stood by Bill more because something about “equally yoked” which, as a non-Christian, i have no idea what that was about.  She is too shrill.  She is phony. etc.

Eventually that was replaced by those same white women in western Pennsylvania complaining about Michelle Obama trying to force their kids to eat healthy lunches.  Though I recall fondly one such conversation where I explained that, from my perspective, if The Government is going to force me to send my kid to school, I’d rather that they feed her healthy food than crappy food, and the woman I was talking to was actually buying that maybe healthy school lunches were not such a bad idea.  Then I found out that while this conversation was happening my 8 year old was being taught how to shoot a rifle without my knowledge.

I try not to go to western Pennsylvania anymore.


----------



## Roller

mollyc said:


> I didn't like Bill Clinton in the 90s and by extension, I have never liked the woman who was married to him. My disdain for her grew over the years, and has zero to do with whatever Trump ever said about her.



I don’t think it’s fair to dislike someone because you don’t like their spouse. I’ve had a few friends whose partners I despised. We may wonder why a person we like would stay with someone we don’t, but the reasons are often unknown, even to close friends. 

As for Ms. Clinton, there were certainly aspects of her personality and things she’d done that I found distasteful. But I maintain the country would have been far better off had she won in 2016 (which she did by popular vote).


----------



## mollyc

Cmaier said:


> I found that she was particularly unpopular with white women in western Pennsylvania (mostly Butler county). Every time I’d visit, I’d be bombarded with complaints.  She should have dumped Bill.  She should have stood by Bill more because something about “equally yoked” which, as a non-Christian, i have no idea what that was about.  She is too shrill.  She is phony. etc.
> 
> Eventually that was replaced by those same white women in western Pennsylvania complaining about Michelle Obama trying to force their kids to eat healthy lunches.  Though I recall fondly one such conversation where I explained that, from my perspective, if The Government is going to force me to send my kid to school, I’d rather that they feed her healthy food than crappy food, and the woman I was talking to was actually buying that maybe healthy school lunches were not such a bad idea.  Then I found out that while this conversation was happening my 8 year old was being taught how to shoot a rifle without my knowledge.
> 
> I try not to go to western Pennsylvania anymore.



hahahaha. I grew up in Lawrence County.

I didn't mind Michelle Obama that much. I've grown more open minded as I've gotten older and were Obama president now I would probably like them more than I did at the time. I did always think that Michelle was kind and had everyone's best interests at heart. I only ever thought that Hillary was out for herself.


----------



## Renzatic

mollyc said:


> I didn't like Bill Clinton in the 90s and by extension, I have never liked the woman who was married to him. My disdain for her grew over the years, and has zero to do with whatever Trump ever said about her.




The Clinton's, to me, have always been emblematic of the kind of soft corruption that's rife in Washington. They don't outright flaunt the rule of law, but they're not above backscratching, giving friends and allies an unfair advantage, or looking the other way when it's convenient for they and theirs.

It's not something that will break the nation, but it's also something we shouldn't treat as casually as we do. I can understand why some people don't like the Clinton's due to that. What I don't understand is why so many people turned to Trump as the solution to that problem, who by all metrics is considerably worse in every way imaginable.


----------



## Edd

Renzatic said:


> What I don't understand is why so many people turned to Trump as the solution to that problem, who by all metrics is considerably worse in every way imaginable.



Trusting a grifter to drain the swamp, like hiring a *known* child molester to babysit.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Cmaier said:


> I found that she was particularly unpopular with white women in western Pennsylvania (mostly Butler county).




I was born and lived is eastern Ohio (Trumbull county) till I was 11.  So I think I know the type of women you're talking about.

I  try not to go to eastern Ohio anymore.


----------



## Renzatic

Edd said:


> Trusting a grifter to drain the swamp, like hiring a *known* child molester to babysit.




It's more like not trusting someone to babysit your kids because you heard they cheated on their SATs, and going through the sex offender registry to find someone to replace her with.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> I found that she was particularly unpopular with white women in western Pennsylvania (mostly Butler county). Every time I’d visit, I’d be bombarded with complaints.  She should have dumped Bill.  She should have stood by Bill more because something about “equally yoked” which, as a non-Christian, i have no idea what that was about.  She is too shrill.  She is phony. etc.
> 
> Eventually that was replaced by those same white women in western Pennsylvania complaining about Michelle Obama trying to force their kids to eat healthy lunches.  Though I recall fondly one such conversation where I explained that, from my perspective, if The Government is going to force me to send my kid to school, I’d rather that they feed her healthy food than crappy food, and the woman I was talking to was actually buying that maybe healthy school lunches were not such a bad idea.  Then I found out that while this conversation was happening my 8 year old was being taught how to shoot a rifle without my knowledge.
> 
> I try not to go to western Pennsylvania anymore.




Reminds me of a Bill Burr bit complaining about first ladies being too involved in things. Paraphrased “Republicans keep their wives in check. I don’t even know what W Bush’s wife’s name was. Abigail or some shit? I didn’t vote for you, lady. I voted for your husband.”   I don’t know how nobody has tried to cancel him.


----------



## GermanSuplex

If republicans want the affidavit released, and Trump wants it released, why don't the white nationalist Fox panelists demand to know why they've not made any motions or argued their case in court? We already know the answer; it's an empty maneuver by the Trump clan to feign transparency. It's easy to talk about wanting the affidavit unsealed when you're not petitioning the courts to do so and know there's very little that will come out unredacted.

On a related note, its interesting that Rudy was testifying for hours in the GA probe and was pretty restrained when talking to reporters... he offered zero details and didn't run his mouth about anything, really. If all he did was plead the fifth, he was sure in there a long time.

Rudy is a laughingstock, but its not too late for redemption.... he thinly hinted a year or so ago that he knows where the bodies are buried, and that's the one thing Rudy has said that I'm inclined to believe. Also, there is no attorney/client privilege when you're actively engaging in crimes. There's a lot at stake in that GA probe, and all these legal situations Trump finds himself in can play on each other and offer evidence to one another. He should tread lightly.

The latest I'm hearing is that they're thinking about releasing surveillance footage of the Mar-A-Lago raid. That would be incredibly stupid and dangerous... much like Trump himself... and I don't really know if it would offer any answers, it would just give the insane cultists on social media a chance to harass any federal officers who's faces aren't blurred. I've got a feeling this whole thing is going to uglier before it gets better.


----------



## lizkat

mac_in_tosh said:


> I guess Trump didn't get the message.
> 
> I wasn't aware of the attempts by W to address how his party has strayed, but at this point they seem too little. Cheney's video denouncing Trump  didn't help Liz win her election but maybe it woke some Trumpers up and W could do more given the stakes. It would have to come from him and not Clinton or Obama because they would just be denounced as partisan.




I don't know that anything said or done by any former president can really help much at this point, what with so many of us more interested in talking than listening anyway. 

What we need and will finally attain-- if only by weariness of escalating hatred-- is individual refusal to support all the drama,  and to become interested instead once again in actual track records of people stepping up to run for office.

Maybe could start by asking pols just to quit ramping up partisan hatred one more notch.  We know how to hate.  Where is the pol who is more about helping us become more neighborly again?  What's with the wink and nod to morons advocating a civil war?

 Why not cut a pol off when he starts to rant on the stump about the other guy, and ask him this:   "What policies are you FOR?   What does your PARTY mean to work for that's in American interests?  How can you help get there?"

Any fool can insult another candidate and stir up trouble on social media or the street.  Not sure why voters think pols who do the same thing as some drunk down the bar on a Friday night should be elected to represent us or lead us in matters of governance.   All that does in the long run is invite political violence.

But at this point we're still far more likely to think that whoever is talking right now is just flapping his gums, whether he's a former president or the current one, an op-ed writer, editorial board, talk show host  or some wannbe influencer on social media.

Talk was never so cheap, and even when worth listening to it ends up instantly devalued by haters of various stripe.

Some used to say of Bush that he was "all hat and no cattle," a particularly Texan pejorative.   At least he hasn't been out there bragging 24/7 on how he's [still?] a naked emperor, unlike Trump who seems perversely hell bent on proving exactly that of himself at least a few times every day.

 I admire Bush for having the humility to say in that one speech "I come to you without explanations or solutions;  I can only tell you what I have seen."   He reminded us that we have indeed been better neighbors to each other than we are now.  It's worth thinking about how we got to where we are and how much of that is on each of us.   We might also want to quit watching American pols inventing new hills to die on in partisan hatred,  and instead start trying to acknowledge that we do stand on a lot of common ground.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Heard this simplifying things, The Republican party hasn't lost its way.  They've achieved terminal peak.  Defend the profits and wealth of those at the top while turning the rest of the citizens against each other.  Trump just advanced that a decade or so.


----------



## Eric

Newly unsealed documents from the FBI raid on Mar-a-Lago put Trump in even worse legal peril, experts say
					

A federal judge unsealed documents Thursday that contain new information on the legal woes facing Donald Trump over the Mar-a-Lago search.




					www.businessinsider.com
				




Newly unsealed documents from the FBI raid on Mar-a-Lago put Trump in even worse legal peril, experts say​
New legal documents were unsealed by a federal judge Thursday in the wake of the Mar-a-Lago raid.
They show new details about the possible crimes the FBI was investigating with the search.
They hinted at ways of prosecuting Trump that do not rest on whether documents he kept are classified.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> Newly unsealed documents from the FBI raid on Mar-a-Lago put Trump in even worse legal peril, experts say
> 
> 
> A federal judge unsealed documents Thursday that contain new information on the legal woes facing Donald Trump over the Mar-a-Lago search.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newly unsealed documents from the FBI raid on Mar-a-Lago put Trump in even worse legal peril, experts say​
> New legal documents were unsealed by a federal judge Thursday in the wake of the Mar-a-Lago raid.
> They show new details about the possible crimes the FBI was investigating with the search.
> They hinted at ways of prosecuting Trump that do not rest on whether documents he kept are classified.



they keep asking then they get the answer and you know they wont be happy.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Newly unsealed documents from the FBI raid on Mar-a-Lago put Trump in even worse legal peril, experts say
> 
> 
> A federal judge unsealed documents Thursday that contain new information on the legal woes facing Donald Trump over the Mar-a-Lago search.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newly unsealed documents from the FBI raid on Mar-a-Lago put Trump in even worse legal peril, experts say​
> New legal documents were unsealed by a federal judge Thursday in the wake of the Mar-a-Lago raid.
> They show new details about the possible crimes the FBI was investigating with the search.
> They hinted at ways of prosecuting Trump that do not rest on whether documents he kept are classified.




This is dumb. There is nothing on the cover sheet that wasn’t also in the warrant. The same list of statutes, by number.  

Reporters are dumb.


----------



## Renzatic

Cmaier said:


> This is dumb. There is nothing on the cover sheet that wasn’t also in the warrant. The same list of statutes, by number.
> 
> Reporters are dumb.




They have to do something to keep the clicks coming in. Reframing an old story to appear to contain new info is one of those methods.


----------



## ronntaylor

Cmaier said:


> Reporters are dumb.



It's Business Insider, Jack!


----------



## mac_in_tosh

mollyc said:


> I didn't like Bill Clinton in the 90s and by extension, I have never liked the woman who was married to him. My disdain for her grew over the years, and has zero to do with whatever Trump ever said about her.



But why the disdain? I'm trying to understand why some people find her so objectionable while voting for a pathological liar and sociopath who cheated on all three of his wives and who led a shady real estate company.


----------



## mollyc

mac_in_tosh said:


> But why the disdain? I'm trying to understand why some people find her so objectionable while voting for a pathological liar and sociopath who cheated on all three of his wives and who led a shady real estate company.



To be clear I don't like Trump either. I just don't like the Clintons and have never since Bill started campaigning for his first presidency. They both struck me as smarmy and underhanded. I don't really think the Clintons were a lot more ethical than Trump, they were just more suave about it. 

I could not vote for Hillary. I did not want to vote for Trump but there was no other option. I did not vote for him a second time.


----------



## Roller

mollyc said:


> To be clear I don't like Trump either. I just don't like the Clintons and have never since Bill started campaigning for his first presidency. They both struck me as smarmy and underhanded. I don't really think the Clintons were a lot more ethical than Trump, they were just more suave about it.
> 
> I could not vote for Hillary. I did not want to vote for Trump but there was no other option. I did not vote for him a second time.



One need not “like” a politician to vote for them. When the contrast is this stark, it’s a matter of choosing what is best for the country.

I respect you for not voting for Trump a second time, but his transgressions - misogyny, accusations of rape and harassment, documented evidence of stiffing contractors, calling for supporters to beat up protesters, mocking disabled people, to name just a few - were well known prior to the 2016 election. You indeed did have an option - you just chose not to take it, even if it would have been distasteful. 

It is said Trump didn’t make the Republican Party what it is now, but he sure accelerated its descent by normalizing horrible behavior.


----------



## Cmaier

Roller said:


> One need not “like” a politician to vote for them. When the contrast is this stark, it’s a matter of choosing what is best for the country.
> 
> I respect you for not voting for Trump a second time, but his transgressions - misogyny, accusations of rape and harassment, documented evidence of stiffing contractors, calling for supporters to beat up protesters, mocking disabled people, to name just a few - were well known prior to the 2016 election. You indeed did have an option - you just chose not to take it, even if it would have been distasteful.
> 
> It is said Trump didn’t make the Republican Party what it is now, but he sure accelerated its descent by normalizing horrible behavior.



A lot of people thought, the first time, that Trump’s behavior was just a schtick. (Pardon my Italian).  I had lots of exposure to trump over the years as a New Yorker and as someone who worked in the construction industry.  I heard him many times on the radio and he was always a pretty liberal guy.  I can see why people voted for him figuring he’d behave a lot differently as president.  

At least the first time.


----------



## Roller

Cmaier said:


> A lot of people thought, the first time, that Trump’s behavior was just a schtick. (Pardon my Italian).  I had lots of exposure to trump over the years as a New Yorker and as someone who worked in the construction industry.  I heard him many times on the radio and he was always a pretty liberal guy.  I can see why people voted for him figuring he’d behave a lot differently as president.
> 
> At least the first time.



I can understand how some of his behavior might have been passed off as a performance, that he’d pivot to being presidential when he took office. I didn’t believe that for a New York minute, but I hoped I was wrong. If anything, though, he turned out worse than I expected. 

I have several friends I respect who voted for Trump in 2016, rationalizing their choice by saying he was worth a shot, asking how bad he could be. How wrong they were. 

This is all in the past, of course. But we Americans need to be more discriminating about choosing our leaders, not simply checking a box because it has a D, R, or I in front of it. I’ve voted for Republicans because I thought they’d do a better job than their Democratic opponents, but I only did that after carefully considering the options.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Cmaier said:


> A lot of people thought, the first time, that Trump’s behavior was just a schtick. (Pardon my Italian).  I had lots of exposure to trump over the years as a New Yorker and as someone who worked in the construction industry.  I heard him many times on the radio and he was always a pretty liberal guy.  I can see why people voted for him figuring he’d behave a lot differently as president.
> 
> At least the first time.




I had that hope, because it would seem to be a win-win for him. But I also had serious doubts because he played so hard to the far-right. He could have easily campaigned as a true outsider - for either party - and done the same juvenile schtick, but with a little light-heartedness and extending a hand out to both sides of the aisle. He was name-dropped in rap songs, was a familiar face and, to be fair, he was an actual outsider with no political background. He had a true opportunity to be everyone's president. That's why even though Reagan was a terrible president, he had broad appeal (even with the constant dog-whistling and some serious scandals). Had he campaigned and presided with a "I don't care about party, or who leads which caucus, get your shit done and on my desk". That would have appealed to a lot of people and probably brought a lot of unity. He did the exact opposite, turning off as many people as possible and whittling his base down into the most extreme and racist people he could get, and doubling-down on each bad act he committed.

To his credit, he correctly predicted running as a republican and taking on all of their talking points would get him to the top. He _did_ prove a lot of us wrong, myself included.

But that just tells me this isn't an act. Trump is a true egomaniac who sees himself as a king. The way he stands in front of crowds like at the 2020 RNC, the way he stood on the White House balcony after returning from the hospital with COVID, and tried to get a military parade to happen, the way he marched to that church and held up a book he's never bothered to crack open.... when he watches Kim Jong Un presiding over those massive military parades... that's how Trump sees himself. He's come a lot farther in making that a possible reality than I'd have ever predicted. My thoughts on Trump haven't changed since I first started paying attention to him - he's a low-IQ (truly) person who really can't see things beyond himself. He may love his kids, and even that has a big question mark hanging over it. But above all else, he loves himself, or he hates himself but has done a hell of a job convincing himself that he's the greatest person on earth. The part that fries my mind is why other people feel the same way. I can understand how someone can be a stupid narcissist, but I don't understand why they appeal to anyone else, let alone millions of Americans. It's all very scary.


----------



## ronntaylor

Cmaier said:


> A lot of people thought, the first time, that Trump’s behavior was just a schtick. (Pardon my Italian). I had lots of exposure to trump over the years as a New Yorker and as someone who worked in the construction industry. I heard him many times on the radio and he was always a pretty liberal guy. I can see why people voted for him figuring he’d behave a lot differently as president.
> 
> At least the first time.



Given he pushed birtherism into hyperdrive and that announcement after riding down the golden escalator, I can't see how anyone could vote for that SOB. I can't stand the Clintons. Was questioned by the SS at a campaign stop during BC's first run after getting into an argument with him. And felt HC was entitled and should have to justify the Dem nom. But there was a clear, moral choice for the general. I hope that vote haunts his voters forever. Especially since he screwed over so many of them. And will screw them even more should he finagle himself back into the White House.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

mollyc said:


> I don't really think the Clintons were a lot more ethical than Trump, they were just more suave about it.



So it seems you had a visceral dislike for Hillary Clinton not necessarily rooted in anything specific. That's of course your right.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

ronntaylor said:


> And felt HC was entitled and should have to justify the Dem nom.



She was a first lady, a U.S. Senator and a Secretary of State. Those are pretty good credentials for the nomination.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Funny, people think Hillary was entitled, yet vote for a guy who thinks he’s entitled to everything and absolute loyalty because… I have no clue.

I can get someone not liking Hillary; you lose me when you vote for Trump instead. I suppose you could make a case for “giving him a chance”, but voting for him twice or still supporting him? Yeah, you’ve lost me there. Show me someone more entitled than Trump. Can’t relate to the common American? Has Trump ever driven a car? Swept a floor? Worked a single shift anywhere? Worried about paying a bill? Had a flat tire he had to deal with? Hung something on a line to dry (clothing, that is. Not somebody he turned his back on).

Hillary was infinitely more qualified than Trump, and even if she was as truly corrupt as the cult claims she is, would have probably still had fewer scandals.

Saying Hillary is just as corrupt as Trump but more “suave” about it is really just a poor false equivalence-way of trying to deflect Trump’s never ending and ongoing crime spree. It’s no different than the “all politicians lie” excuse to water down the severity of Trump’s pathological lying. No human is perfect, but that doesn’t make us all deranged lunatics either.


----------



## mollyc

i don’t forgive the clintons or trump. i was given an a/b choice and wanted option k.


----------



## GermanSuplex

mollyc said:


> i don’t forgive the clintons or trump. i was given an a/b choice and wanted option k.




That’s fair, but given the choice between  yellow mustard on saltines for dinner or a shit sandwich, I’ll stick with the saltines and mustard, even though I’d rather have a steak.

Trump exemplifies the worst traits people claim to hate Hillary Clinton for. I understand if people voted for someone else, or not at all (yeah, I know people have differing opinions on that).

There are people who thought Hillary’s email scandal disqualified her from holding office. That was about potential for sensitive information to leak. Yet I didn’t see these same folks raising a stink when Trump willingly gave sensitive intel to Russians _in the Oval Office,_

Now that it’s come out he took tons of sensitive documents home with him, suddenly all that concern they had is gone… if it was ever genuine to begin with. I suspect it wasn’t. So now they’re openly calling for FBI agents to be killed, for the AG to be assassinated, and god knows what else.

The system we have is far from perfect. Some would argue it’s outdated and downright awful. But it’s the system we have. Given the options, I think anyone who disliked Hillary but voted for Trump really just cut off their nose to spite their face. Other than being an “outsider”, Trump exhibited all the traits people claimed to dislike about Hillary, times ten.

It’s like claiming to hate anyone who’s religious, and refusing to vote for George HW Bush and instead voting for Pat Robertson. The first I understand, the second seems to kill your own argument.


----------



## Renzatic

GermanSuplex said:


> That’s fair, but given the choice between yellow mustard on saltines for dinner or a shit sandwich, I’ll stick with the saltines and mustard, even though I’d rather have a steak.




That's my line of thoughts on it. For all the shadiness the Clinton's project, you can at least say they're very smart, very competent, not at all insane people who have plenty of experience doing their jobs.

In the past, these qualities would have been the bare minimum requirements for the presidency, rather than perks, but hey, we live in a different country now.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Renzatic said:


> That's my line of thoughts on it. For all the shadiness the Clinton's project, you can at least say they're very smart, very competent, not at all insane people who have plenty of experience doing their jobs.
> 
> In the past, these qualities would have been the bare minimum requirements for the presidency, rather than perks, but hey, we live in a different country now.




Not to mention, republicans chose Trump out of a field of what, damn near twenty candidates? And another lunatic of the bunch - Ted Cruz - came in second. I don’t think any of us were dying for a Jeb Bush presidency, but they passed on sensible conservatives like him, John Kasich, an (at the time) more moderate Lindsey Graham… I’m surprised Rick Santorum didn’t come in second or third, and even he seems like a moderate these days. Not because he isn’t a far-right religious bigot; he absolutely is. Just because the rest of the party has moved to the right of him.

They also killed their “revamping” when Trump picked up steam. After Romney’s loss to Obama, they said they were going to rethink their strategy and try to appeal to a more broad and diverse set of voters. They wanted to run younger candidates, and Marco Rubio’ name was dropped a lot. So much for that. And he ended up being just as bad as the rest of them, happy to stay in the background and marching along the other Trump bootlickers and sycophants.

Back on topic, this debate over the affidavit is so annoying. It’s going to be incredibly redacted, first off. Trump demanding it’s release is an obvious facade of transparency. You’ll notice he takes better care to keep his tax returns and college transcripts more secretive than sensitive national material. If the affidavit is redacted or not released at all, he’ll demand to know what the DoJ is hiding. If it was released in full, he’d claim “COMPLETE AND TOTAL VINDICATION! Proof the raid on my beautiful home was a witch hunt from the start,  a very ILLEGAL act that is terrible for our country!”

His lawyers made no motion to urge its release. They know their base is unflinching and stupid, so they’re trying to play both sides - a cautious and trepidatious approach in court, and a loud, conspiracy-riddled approach in the court of public opinion.

One thing that gives me hope is the steadfastness of the DoJ. By all accounts, Garland was very methodical and cautious about this. Chris Wray was Trump’s appointed FBI director - a sane conservative and by most opinions a qualified leader. When Frank Figliuzzi was asked if the threats would rattle the DoJ, he said the only thing that would rattle them is they may have to work 19 hours a day instead of 18; their mission will not be deterred.

Sorry for the wall of text.


----------



## rdrr

GermanSuplex said:


> Back on topic, this debate over the affidavit is so annoying. It’s going to be incredibly redacted, first off. Trump demanding it’s release is an obvious facade of transparency. You’ll notice he takes better care to keep his tax returns and* college transcripts* more secretive than sensitive national material. If the affidavit is redacted or not released at all, he’ll demand to know what the DoJ is hiding. If it was released in full, he’d claim “COMPLETE AND TOTAL VINDICATION! Proof the raid on my beautiful home was a witch hunt from the start, a very ILLEGAL act that is terrible for our country!”




I was always wishing his transcripts would have been leaked during the 2016 run.  Everyone know that they are bad, and no one would be surprised if they showed that he graduated (barely) at the bottom of his class, or even at all.

I visited Fordham University for a campus tour in the fall of 2017, and I think he only did a couple of years and left according to him "Because it wasn't challenging enough."  They didn't even mention him in a list of notable attendees.   Also how many articles at the time couldn't find a U. Penn classmate of 1968 that could remember him in class?


----------



## Cmaier

rdrr said:


> I was always wishing his transcripts would have been leaked during the 2016 run.  Everyone know that they are bad, and no one would be surprised if they showed that he graduated (barely) at the bottom of his class, or even at all.
> 
> I visited Fordham University for a campus tour in the fall of 2017, and I think he only did a couple of years and left according to him "Because it wasn't challenging enough."  They didn't even mention him in a list of notable attendees.   Also how many articles at the time couldn't find a U. Penn classmate of 1968 that could remember him in class?



He was actually born in Kenya.


----------



## Yoused

GermanSuplex said:


> Trump exemplifies the worst traits people claim to hate Hillary Clinton for.



"Hitlary" ?


----------



## Citysnaps

Breaking!


----------



## Cmaier

Here’s another Republican talking big about killing FBI agents.  First, this unrelated video which should tell you all you need to know about the guy:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1497535162485071872/

And the big murder talk:









						'In a body bag': Sarasota candidate says he'd kill FBI agents if they tried to search home
					

Sarasota's Martin Hyde is running against U.S. Rep. Vern Buchanan in the GOP primary. Hyde said if FBI agents tried searching his house they'd go home "in a body bag."



					www.heraldtribune.com
				




And then there’s this:









						Ex-girlfriend of congressional candidate Martin Hyde reports concerns he may be suicidal
					

Martin dismissed accusations as lies and fantasy.




					floridapolitics.com


----------



## Edd

Cmaier said:


> Here’s another Republican talking big about killing FBI agents.  First, this unrelated video which should tell you all you need to know about the guy:
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1497535162485071872/
> 
> And the big murder talk:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'In a body bag': Sarasota candidate says he'd kill FBI agents if they tried to search home
> 
> 
> Sarasota's Martin Hyde is running against U.S. Rep. Vern Buchanan in the GOP primary. Hyde said if FBI agents tried searching his house they'd go home "in a body bag."
> 
> 
> 
> www.heraldtribune.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then there’s this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ex-girlfriend of congressional candidate Martin Hyde reports concerns he may be suicidal
> 
> 
> Martin dismissed accusations as lies and fantasy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> floridapolitics.com



From one of those links 



> Hyde also seemed to confirm that he is being provocative to get media attention.
> 
> "Did you even consider I might be using hyperbole and rhetoric because I know how susceptible you are to it?" Hyde said. "No point in spending money on mailers when you'll print my name for free."



You see guys, he’s just being a sensible guy with his campaign finances. I myself start talking about body bags when I need attention, like when service at a restaurant is a bit slow.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

When I first learned that Mary Trump referred to her uncle as the world's most dangerous man in the subtitle of her book, I thought it was an exaggeration. I don't anymore.


----------



## Cmaier

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1561064981294202880/


----------



## Renzatic

Edd said:


> You see guys, he’s just being a sensible guy with his campaign finances. I myself start talking about body bags when I need attention, like when service at a restaurant is a bit slow.




When you finding yourself waiting too long at the IHOP, you do what you gotta do.


----------



## ronntaylor

mac_in_tosh said:


> She was a first lady, a U.S. Senator and a Secretary of State. Those are pretty good credentials for the nomination.



She was still entitled and you left out the remainder of my reply. She was running as if she deserved the nomination. Same as eight years earlier when BHO cleaned her clock. It was as if she felt that only she could win giving that she already lost to an upstart, then served in said upstart's administration.

I don't consider work as First Lady as relevant experience. Especially in her case as she caved in expanding health and was partially responsible for BC's wishy-washy, centralist-caving tendencies. I felt she coasted into the New York Senate seat on sympathy and because she had shitty opposition. I do give her credit for her work as SoS and as I stated, she was the most morally qualified. She was obviously the most qualified as Mango is a total shit-show. Morally and politically.

I think she played her hand weakly given all that she was up against (light campaigning in the Rust Belt, ignoring the Black vote towards the end, piss poor response in the face of bad optics and mistakes like "Basket of Deplorables" and the Labor Day fiasco). And especially after Comey tipped the scales by reopening the email investigation so late. I blame Obama more for that last point as he constantly blathered on that he wanted to protect his legacy. Yet did precious little when Comey gave justification for his immediate firing. And McConnell and the GOP deserved to be spat in the face given all the evidence of Russian meddling and not addressing it. BHO meting out punishment after the fact was the very definition of milquetoast.

I think she thought it would be a cakewalk given the GOP circus, and then Mango winning the nod. There were so many signs that it was going to be a big fight till the end. The GTBTP tape should have been the end of Mango. When that didn't immediately kill his campaign she should have gone nuclear.


----------



## Renzatic

Cmaier said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1561064981294202880/




The more conspiratorial side of me is thinking that this could be an attempt to leak evidence to the public in an attempt to poison the upcoming trial against his father.

If millions of people see exactly what's being used against Trump, then it taints his presumption of innocence, making it more difficult to find an impartial jury, which leads to more opportunities to call for a mistrial.


----------



## Cmaier

ronntaylor said:


> She was still entitled and you left out the remainder of my reply. She was running as if she deserved the nomination.



“Ladies and gentlemen, please vote for me even though I *don’t* deserve the nomination.”

- behavior required of no male politician ever.


----------



## Cmaier

Renzatic said:


> The more conspiratorial side of me is thinking that this could be an attempt to leak evidence to the public in an attempt to poison the upcoming trial against his father.
> 
> If millions of people see exactly what's being used against Trump, then it taints his presumption of innocence, making it more difficult to find an impartial jury, which leads to more opportunities to call for a mistrial.




That doesn‘t work in real life. That’s what voire dire is for. And once the trial occurs, you aren’t going to get a mistrial absent *external* influence on the jurors.


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1561064981294202880/



But Rudy Giuliani claims Trump was actually keeping classified documents 'safe' at Mar-a-Lago so this can't possibly be true.

Does this look like the face of a liar to you?


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1561064981294202880/




Intentional or not, the stupid runs deep in that crowd.


----------



## ronntaylor

Cmaier said:


> “Ladies and gentlemen, please vote for me even though I *don’t* deserve the nomination.”
> 
> - behavior required of no male politician ever.



That isn't even close to reality. It's more like "Vote for me, I should've beat the Black guy with the funny name!! And it's the perfect time to elect the first woman Prez, amirite!!" *while wearing a white pantsuit*

She acted as if the nom was supposed to be handed to her on a silver platter without any contest. And as much as I hated Bernie, Super Delegates and DNC officials F'ed up with their shenanigans, giving the Bernie-or-Bust crazies oxygen.


----------



## Cmaier

ronntaylor said:


> She acted as if the nom was supposed to be handed to her on a silver platter without any contest.



Sure she did. Saying it over and over makes it so.


----------



## Yoused

Cmaier said:


> “Ladies and gentlemen, please vote for me even though I *don’t* deserve the nomination.”
> 
> - behavior required of no male politician ever.




Perhaps the more accurate way to put it is that she felt that the nomination _was owed to her_ and _who the fuck is this _Pretender_ Bernie trying to challenge me, I will show him who this belongs to, a ha ha ha ha ha_. Many in the D camp resented her arrogance and may have stayed home because of it. I voted for her in November solely because I did not want to be blamed for letting an Agent Orange fiasco get elected, not that my vote would matter in my state.


----------



## Cmaier

Yoused said:


> Perhaps the more accurate way to put it is that she felt that the nomination _was owed to her_ and _who the fuck is this _Pretender_ Bernie trying to challenge me, I will show him who this belongs to, a ha ha ha ha ha_. Many in the D camp resented her arrogance and may have stayed home because of it. I voted for her in November solely because I did not want to be blamed for letting an Agent Orange fiasco get elected, not that my vote would matter in my state.




Awful lot of projection going on is all I’m saying. I submit that a man acting exactly the same as she acted would not be accused of being “arrogant.”


----------



## Yoused

Cmaier said:


> I submit that a man acting exactly the same as she acted would not be accused of being “arrogant.”




If you could generate a set of circumstances that aligned in parallel to Ms Clinton's presidential bid but with a male protagonist, a word like "arrogant" probably would get used. I do not believe it is misogyny to call her arrogant wrt 2016. In the general election, it looked like she was barely putting in any effort, for which we should all feel cheated.


----------



## AG_PhamD

lizkat said:


> After revelation of the recent human trafficking busts, explain to me again why the right wants to defund the FBI?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FBI locates 121 minors, 141 adults in nationwide human trafficking bust
> 
> 
> The FBI worked with state and local partners to track down the victims during a campaign dubbed "Operation Cross Country."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.axios.com




I have to admit, I am quite tired of the hypocrisy of the Republican and Democrat leaders here when it comes to law enforcement (To be clear, that’s not to say law enforcement doesn’t have its own set of legitimate problems)

Starting with the GOP, they have historically called themselves the party of law and order. They’re complaining constantly about Dem lead cities crime problems. They almost always defend the police, in some cases going too far. They were firmly against the anti-defund / disband / radical reformation of policing a couple years ago.

Yet now they want to defund the FBI, but loved Comey when his public statements on Clinton probably helped a lot in her losing the 2016 election. They were silent on cases of blatant FBI entrapment of young Muslim men until it came to the Gretchen Whitmer fiasco. Many seem to have little regard for law enforcement on Jan 6th. They seem to be going after the Border Patrol now because of a video purportedly showing some agents letting migrants in through a locked gate. And so much for law and order when it comes to attempting to overthrow the results of an election... or in some cases insinuating it or failing to reject such claims.

Meanwhile, the Democrats have been critical of law enforcement, in many cases for good reasons such as police brutality and racial profiling. They long criticized the FBI for entrapping vulnerable young Muslim men in fake terrorist plots- like the kid that had to ask his mom first. The FBI, or at least Comey was attributed by many for unfairly ruining Clinton’s campaign, but then became a hero when it came to Russiagate.

There is also a large swath that seem to think cops are almost universally racist pigs with bad intent. That cops don’t deserve any type of respect for the difficult job they have because it’s a career choice they made and they choose to work in a corrupt system. There are those who think law enforcement should be defunded. Or in some cases “abolished”. Border Control and ICE aren’t exactly well regarded by many Dems.

When it came to the protests and riots of 2020 when innocent people were injured, killed, businesses burned, etc- along with many cops injured and some likely killed connection, there was little regard for law enforcement or rule of law.

But on January 6th these same voices had great concern for the safety of law enforcement- rightfully so. And now that many Republicans are making radical comments against the FBI (which is totally unacceptable), the Dems are once again pro-law enforcement.

I’m just going to call it as I see it. Neither side here has much integrity when it comes to law enforcement. Law enforcement is unfortunately used as a convenient pawn in promoting one agenda or another. It’s reasons like this I don’t associate myself with either party.

*Disclaimer*: My diatribe here is not intended to condemn members here for affiliating with a party, rather the hypocrisy of the political leadership and media.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

AG_PhamD said:


> I have to admit, I am quite tired of the hypocrisy of the Republican and Democrat leaders here when it comes to law enforcement (To be clear, that’s not to say law enforcement doesn’t have its own set of legitimate problems)
> 
> Starting with the GOP, they have historically called themselves the party of law and order. They’re complaining constantly about Dem lead cities crime problems. They almost always defend the police, in some cases going too far. They were firmly against the anti-defund / disband / radical reformation of policing a couple years ago.
> 
> Yet now they want to defund the FBI, but loved Comey when his public statements on Clinton probably helped a lot in her losing the 2016 election. They were silent on cases of blatant FBI entrapment of young Muslim men until it came to the Gretchen Whitmer fiasco. Many seem to have little regard for law enforcement on Jan 6th. They seem to be going after the Border Patrol now because of a video purportedly showing some agents letting migrants in through a locked gate. And so much for law and order when it comes to attempting to overthrow the results of an election... or in some cases insinuating it or failing to reject such claims.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Democrats have been critical of law enforcement, in many cases for good reasons such as police brutality and racial profiling. They long criticized the FBI for entrapping vulnerable young Muslim men in fake terrorist plots- like the kid that had to ask his mom first. The FBI, or at least Comey was attributed by many for unfairly ruining Clinton’s campaign, but then became a hero when it came to Russiagate.
> 
> There is also a large swath that seem to think cops are almost universally racist pigs with bad intent. That cops don’t deserve any type of respect for the difficult job they have because it’s a career choice they made and they choose to work in a corrupt system. There are those who think law enforcement should be defunded. Or in some cases “abolished”. Border Control and ICE aren’t exactly well regarded by many Dems.
> 
> When it came to the protests and riots of 2020 when innocent people were injured, killed, businesses burned, etc- along with many cops injured and some likely killed connection, there was little regard for law enforcement or rule of law.
> 
> But on January 6th these same voices had great concern for the safety of law enforcement- rightfully so. And now that many Republicans are making radical comments against the FBI (which is totally unacceptable), the Dems are once again pro-law enforcement.
> 
> I’m just going to call it as I see it. Neither side here has much integrity when it comes to law enforcement. Law enforcement is unfortunately used as a convenient pawn in promoting one agenda or another. It’s reasons like this I don’t associate myself with either party.
> 
> *Disclaimer*: My diatribe here is not intended to condemn members here for affiliating with a party, rather the hypocrisy of the political leadership and media.



You make some valid points and there are extreme opinions among Republicans and Democrats. I think however that there's a difference. While some rank and file Democrats might have low opinions of all cops and want to defund or abolish them, that view isn't shared by leaders of the party, certainly not Biden. And similarly there are extremists among the Republican rank and file who are attacking the FBI but much of that is also coming from the titular head of the party, Donald Trump, as well as other leaders. DeSantis said we're turning into a banana republic. McCarthy threatened Garland with an investigation should the GOP win back the house in November. Etc.

The DOJ negotiated with Trump for many months about returning the documents but he lied about having done so. Any reasonable person would conclude that the DOJ and FBI were totally justified in executing a search warrant to retrieve documents which have the potential of grave harm to the nation if they fall into the wrong hands (if they haven't already).

I think the Republicans hypocrisy outweighs that of the Democrats because the shift in their position is so abrupt and is in defense of the indefensible (stolen classified documents) and the extreme views are coming from leaders of the party.


----------



## Renzatic

mac_in_tosh said:


> I think the Republicans hypocrisy outweighs that of the Democrats because the shift in their position is so abrupt and is in defense of the indefensible (stolen classified documents) and the extreme views are coming from leaders of the party.




I'd say that the democrats are very much the lesser of the two evils, but their tendency to look the other way when it came to issues among their own helped open the gates for Trump. That soft corruption I mentioned earlier became justification for the gross corruption we're seeing now. It provided the excuses, the fuel for the whataboutism now so regularly used to justify so much worse.

It's the perfect example of why we shouldn't make exceptions for bad behavior. Hillary's little email fiasco wasn't the worst security breach we've ever faced in our history, and there was no evidence of any criminal intent behind it. When you consider all the facts, it seems all she did was respond to inquiries involving her position as Secretary of State without considering where she was replying from. The end result was that some classified information ended up being mixed in with her private correspondences. Not great, but not the worst thing in the world, either. Mostly, she, and we by extension, were lucky it wasn't any worse than that.

So does that mean we should've done nothing to her, say her punishment was losing the presidency, and call it a day? No. She should've been fined $100k, and put on two years probation. Same as what happened with Patraeus. If we did, then Republicans wouldn't be having such an easy time justifying what Trump did to their voter base now. They wouldn't be able to point at Hillary, and say that she did similar, and they're only wanting to punish Trump because of scared of him.

No, they'd be saying that they only charged Hillary $100k, and two years probation for a similar crime. That'd still be a more difficult position to defend, since it's easy to illustrate what Trump did as being 100 steps beyond in response, plus they wouldn't have the accusations of favoritism and hypocrisy to fall back on.


----------



## AG_PhamD

mac_in_tosh said:


> You make some valid points and there are extreme opinions among Republicans and Democrats. I think however that there's a difference. While some rank and file Democrats might have low opinions of all cops and want to defund or abolish them, that view isn't shared by leaders of the party, certainly not Biden. And similarly there are extremists among the Republican rank and file who are attacking the FBI but much of that is also coming from the titular head of the party, Donald Trump, as well as other leaders. DeSantis said we're turning into a banana republic. McCarthy threatened Garland with an investigation should the GOP win back the house in November. Etc.
> 
> The DOJ negotiated with Trump for many months about returning the documents but he lied about having done so. Any reasonable person would conclude that the DOJ and FBI were totally justified in executing a search warrant to retrieve documents which have the potential of grave harm to the nation if they fall into the wrong hands (if they haven't already).
> 
> I think the Republicans hypocrisy outweighs that of the Democrats because the shift in their position is so abrupt and is in defense of the indefensible (stolen classified documents) and the extreme views are coming from leaders of the party.




Don’t get me wrong, the response of many republicans and right wing media is completely unacceptable on this. And by no means am I defending them or whatever it is that Trump did to justify a search warrant- which I will reiterate it amazes me how strong the opinions of GOP and Dems are when just how little is officially known about this.

I would agree with your assessment _currently_ regarding Dem pro-law enforcement sentiment at the level of the Biden administration. Things were very different in the run up to the 2020 election if you may remember- and that’s basically my point. 

Biden called for the defunding of the police which then was claimed “that’s not really what he meant” (and now has plans to vastly expand policing). Harris backed a fund to bail rioters out of jail. Last I heard Biden also wants to “punish” the Border officers who were falsely accused of “whipping” purely out of optics. And the Dems overwhelming lack of condemnation of 2020 riots is really inexcusable. It would be naive to say the chaos of 2020 riots wasn’t exploited for political benefit (on both sides). 

The politicians perception around law enforcement changes in whatever way it is most beneficial.   I would also say the Dem leadership opinions at the level of Congress and State/Local are often quite negative of law enforcement. 

Back to Mar-a-lago- the default position should be the DOJ and FBI executed their processes by the book, unless and until proven otherwise. Given the FBI’s track record with Trump I believe you’d have to be willfully ignorant not to think the GOP wouldn’t be at a minimum skeptical of the FBI acting in less than ethical ways. Frankly I see no way around that reality (which is a position the FBI put themselves in thanks to the past unethical actions of a small few) other than to be as transparent as feasible. On the other hand, the GOP has to admit at the very least many of Trump’s responses to this raid only appear to incriminate him further.


----------



## ronntaylor

Cmaier said:


> Awful lot of projection going on is all I’m saying. I submit that a man acting exactly the same as she acted would not be accused of being “arrogant.”



Wesley Clark, John Edwards, Howard Dean and a host of other men would like to remind you that they also were called arrogant. For less egregious behavior. And HC et al called Obama arrogant for even competing against her. 

<delete>repetitive list of HC's arrogant actions: 2008, 2016</delete>


----------



## GermanSuplex

ronntaylor said:


> Wesley Clark, John Edwards, Howard Dean and a host of other men would like to remind you that they also were called arrogant. For less egregious behavior. And HC et al called Obama arrogant for even competing against her.
> 
> <delete>repetitive list of HC's arrogant actions: 2008, 2016</delete>




It’s hard to believe Dean giving a loud scream tanked the rest of his candidacy. Trump has had every scandal most democrats have had over the last two decades, and he’s still the de-facto party leader.

Porn stars, sexual assault and rape allegations, cozying up to Russia, hauling off government documents, saying mind-boggling stupid shit, mishandling a pandemic, telling thousands of massive lies, trying to get foreign officials to investigate political opponents, getting caught on tape pressuring a Georgia official to “find” votes… it has callbacks to Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Howard Dean, John Kerry, Rod Blagojevich and who knows how many others,


----------



## ronntaylor

GermanSuplex said:


> It’s hard to believe Dean giving a loud scream tanked the rest of his candidacy.



Media manipulation! It was such a blatant move by the press. The scream was manufactured because Dean was considered an outsider and really too liberal. By the mostly liberal press/companies.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

mac_in_tosh said:


> DeSantis said we're turning into a banana republic.




I like how he got that exactly backwards, but of course he did because he's a Republican.  In a banana republic leaders aren't held accountable.  The Republican party is mad because that's exactly what we are attempting to do.  Fucking morons.


----------



## shadow puppet

So I'm reading they found more than 300 classified documents at MAL.  Some TS/SCI? National defense secrets? 
Now can we lock his fat arse up?

Oh and just for posterity, even Fox news agrees the search was justified.


----------



## DT

GermanSuplex said:


> It’s hard to believe Dean giving a loud scream tanked the rest of his candidacy. Trump has had every scandal most democrats have had over the last two decades, and he’s still the de-facto party leader.
> 
> Porn stars, sexual assault and rape allegations, cozying up to Russia, hauling off government documents, saying mind-boggling stupid shit, mishandling a pandemic, telling thousands of massive lies, trying to get foreign officials to investigate political opponents, getting caught on tape pressuring a Georgia official to “find” votes… it has callbacks to Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Howard Dean, John Kerry, Rod Blagojevich and who knows how many others,




One the trump moments where I couldn't believe he had any goodwill afterwards - specifically with christians - was when he was asked about his "favorite chapter or verse from the bible", this was shortly after parading down to a church with armed guards, an waving one around.

He couldn't quote a single __anything__, I mean, FFS, just toss out John 3:16, we've all seen the guy for decades who used to wear the wig and hold up the sign at sporting events.  The follow up was a softball, something about Old vs. New Testament, even that he couldn't respond to, I think he mumbled something about "It's a personal choice".

Here's a guy, positioning himself as a christian, as a man of some faith, and he knows absolutely nothing it, but still gets support from that group, and even worse, they project some kind of divinity on this guy who's never been to church ...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1561410345272545283/


----------



## Eric

Oh FFS...

Trump filed a lawsuit arguing DOJ should stop reviewing materials from Mar-a-Lago until a 'special master' is appointed​








						Trump filed a lawsuit arguing DOJ should stop reviewing materials from Mar-a-Lago until a 'special master' is appointed
					

Trump's lawyers said he's the "clear frontrunner" in the 2024 GOP primary and claimed the Mar-a-Lago raid was politically motivated.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Oh FFS...
> 
> Trump filed a lawsuit arguing DOJ should stop reviewing materials from Mar-a-Lago until a 'special master' is appointed​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump filed a lawsuit arguing DOJ should stop reviewing materials from Mar-a-Lago until a 'special master' is appointed
> 
> 
> Trump's lawyers said he's the "clear frontrunner" in the 2024 GOP primary and claimed the Mar-a-Lago raid was politically motivated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com



It’s really comical. You are supposed to have a sworn affidavit and cite to it for each supposed fact that you allege. It doesn’t do that. You are supposed to cite why the court has jurisdiction. It doesn’t do that (and it probably doesn’t).  You are supposed to cite case law. It barely does that, and the case it cites actually says the opposite of what they claim it says (Nixon).  You aren’t supposed to ask rhetorical questions.

And the reason a special master supposedly should be appointed is that these are presidential documents and thus entitled to executive privilege. But executive privileged documents are supposed to be with the national archives now.  

And the document keeps referring to Trump as president and making arguments as if he is still president.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Cmaier said:


> It’s really comical. You are supposed to have a sworn affidavit and cite to it for each supposed fact that you allege. It doesn’t do that. You are supposed to cite why the court has jurisdiction. It doesn’t do that (and it probably doesn’t).  You are supposed to cite case law. It barely does that, and the case it cites actually says the opposite of what they claim it says (Nixon).  You aren’t supposed to ask rhetorical questions.
> 
> And the reason a special master supposedly should be appointed is that these are presidential documents and thus entitled to executive privilege. But executive privileged documents are supposed to be with the national archives now.
> 
> And the document keeps referring to Trump as president and making arguments as if he is still president.



well when you have no real lawyers anymore this is what you get.


----------



## Cmaier

fooferdoggie said:


> well when you have no real lawyers anymore this is what you get.




There are indications this was written by Kash Patel and Trump, himself. When it was first filed, the case was listed as pro se, meaning trump is acting as his own lawyer. But the document is signed (e-signed) by three lawyers, who appear to actually be witnesses (and thus subject to conflict).  Not clear whether they actually signed it or not (you are allowed to affix a signature of a lawyer by doing ”/s/ firstname last name” but only if the lawyer authorizes you. And it turns out a different lawyer (the insurance lawyer) finally made “an appearance” on his behalf in this docket, but the three lawyers who supposedly signed the document did not. 

There are a ton of statements in there that open Trump and his attorneys up to all sorts of discovery, and allow the DoJ to “speak” about an open investigation in order to refute the crazy lies and theories.  

Note that even though nobody swore an affidavit supporting any of the lies that are listed in this complaint, the lawyers who signed it are still on the hook, and it wouldn’t surprise me if they eventually get sanctioned for this nonsense.


----------



## GermanSuplex

It was reported on The Beat that the FBI asked for surveillance footage BEFORE the search of Mar-A-Lago. And that finding over 100 (may have been 150) classified documents in January is what triggered this investigation. No wonder they’re behind the J6 committee, they were probably already knee-deep into this investigation. And let’s not pretend we know everything they do about Trump and his crime ring’s actions regarding to January 6. Garland’s DoJ could just be less leaky than Trump’s. I always thought the leaks in the justice department were less about them having an issue and more about people trying to sound the alarm on a criminal enterprise operating out of the White House.

What all this says to me is that Trump is in trouble. This is not a satellite investigation from January 6. This is independent, a crime of its own. Illegally taking documents he wasn’t entitled to, refusing to give them back, and then in typical Trump fashion, obstructing any attempts to get them back or investigate his wrongdoing. He’s going to be indicted, and I highly doubt his lies, bluster and thinly-veiled attacks on the DoJ are going to help him.

The most laughable defense so far is a “standing order” to declassify documents. One, because the potential charges makes that irrelevant: declassifying they documents doesn’t make it legal for him to take and store them at home, and refusing to turn them over to the National Archives. Then they’re saying he “took his work home”. That goes against ANOTHER defense his supporters have made, that he isn’t sitting around reading them, or that someone else packed them and they just “ended up” there. Each of these arguments contradict one another.

The arguments are all over the place. I would not be surprised if others are indicted for aiding in this.

The “Gang of 8” on Capitol Hill want to see the documents Trump stole. I’d be interested in seeing their reaction to what was taken.

I heard a good theory as to why Trump took these documents: turning them back in to where they belonged would be somewhat of an admission he had lost, symbolically at least. And of course, Trump’s instinct to do anything he’s told is to do the opposite. Someone joked that if he had been told to take them home with him and glance over them, they would have been turned into the Archives the same day.

The cult will whine, yell, discredit everyone and maybe even drum up some random violence, but it won’t hinder the investigation or help Trump.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> The most laughable defense so far is a “standing order” to declassify documents. One, because the potential charges makes that irrelevant: declassifying they documents doesn’t make it legal for him to take and store them at home, and refusing to turn them over to the National Archives. Then they’re saying he “took his work home”.




And...presidential declassifications are required to be memorialized in writing as part of the process. Apparently such documents simply don't exist.  Shocked!


----------



## Eric

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/wvl4j0


----------



## Eric

I refuse to believe Trump would be untruthful about this.

DOJ is seeking further surveillance video from Mar-a-Lago, suggesting Trump may still have secret documents there: NYT​


> The New York Times reported that officials are seeking more evidence from Mar-a-Lago.
> Per the paper, it could be because the think more classified documents are being kept there.
> FBI agents retrieved vast numbers of records on August 8, sparking a political firestorm.












						DOJ is seeking further surveillance video from Mar-a-Lago, suggesting Trump may still have secret documents there: NYT
					

The FBI's investigation into former President Donald Trump's handling of classified information is not winding up, reported The New York Times.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> I refuse to believe Trump would be untruthful about this.
> 
> DOJ is seeking further surveillance video from Mar-a-Lago, suggesting Trump may still have secret documents there: NYT​



they must not have looked in the bathrooms.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Since Trump's lawyers (including that gal that's been doing the rounds on TV recently) signed documents stating Trump had turned over all classified documents - which could probably be used as proof anything he held onto was criminal - it also puts them in quite the bind. That's not something you just sign hastily. They would be tasked with going through documents and consulting with their client to ensure they truthfully believed he had no more classified info.

This means that they were either in on the crime, and attorney/client privilege will be harder for them to argue, or they were indeed duped by Trump, which would also show Trump's guilt and force them to implicate their client.

Also, if Trump tries to argue in court that he declassified the documents, that's a tacit admission they didn't belong to him. Those belong in the archives, as the property of the federal government.

His lies are really catching up to him here. I thought the DoJ would send him to prison based on his involvement (and by involvement, I mean leading) the coup plot around January 6. This investigation is a monster unto itself, even if you throw out the cases in Georgia and the J6 committee's work.

Am I really to believe a guy who campaigned on locking Hillary Clinton up for less egregious acts just did all this by accident, or with some non-existent "standing order to declassify"?


----------



## Runs For Fun

shadow puppet said:


> So I'm reading they found more than 300 classified documents at MAL.  Some TS/SCI? National defense secrets?
> Now can we lock his fat arse up?
> 
> Oh and just for posterity, even Fox news agrees the search was justified.
> 
> View attachment 16961



I couldn't believe this when I saw it. I'm wondering if everyone is slowing bailing on the sinking Trump ship. They all seem to be shifting over to DeSantis.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Runs For Fun said:


> I couldn't believe this when I saw it. I'm wondering if everyone is slowing bailing on the sinking Trump ship. They all seem to be shifting over to DeSantis.



going from the sinking ship to the stinking ship.


----------



## Joe

If they arrest Trump his cult is gonna go ballistic! We will have another 1/6 on our hands.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Joe said:


> If they arrest Trump his cult is gonna go ballistic! We will have another 1/6 on our hands.



at least we know they are stupid enough that they wont be very effective and be easy to catch.


----------



## Eric

Joe said:


> If they arrest Trump his cult is gonna go ballistic! We will have another 1/6 on our hands.



Sorry, but fuck 'em, every last one. They want him to get privileged hand holding while everyone else in this country gets hammered by the law for far less. Let them take up their arms and learn what it's like to fight against the actual US military, Cletus and his gang of halfwit second amendment nuts will be in for a rude awakening.


----------



## shadow puppet

Joe said:


> If they arrest Trump his cult is gonna go ballistic! We will have another 1/6 on our hands.



I have an unsettling feeling we will end up having another 1/6 on our hands regardless.


----------



## Joe

shadow puppet said:


> I have an unsettling feeling we will end up having another 1/6 on our hands regardless.




Sadly, I agree.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Donald Trump Jr. Offers Wildest Defense Yet Of His Dad Over Mar-A-Lago Documents​Donald Trump Jr. now claims it would probably be a “good” thing if his father, a private citizen living at a resort in Florida, was still holding on to the nuclear codes.
“By the way, for the record, I’d say that if Donald Trump actually still had the nuclear codes, it’d probably be good,” he said Monday at a campaign event for Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.).

“Our enemies might actually be like, ‘OK, maybe let’s not mess with them,’ unlike when they look at Joe Biden and they say, ‘You know what? We should attack now.’”








						Donald Trump Jr. Offers Wildest Defense Yet Of His Dad Over Mar-A-Lago Documents
					

If Donald Trump still had the nuclear codes, it would probably be a "good" thing anyway, his son argued.




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## Eric

shadow puppet said:


> I have an unsettling feeling we will end up having another 1/6 on our hands regardless.



I don't disagree here, but this time they won't be up against an unsuspecting minimal police force, we'll roll out the real military who would be fully prepared and they'll have to ask themselves if it's worth it.


----------



## Renzatic

Eric said:


> I don't disagree here, but this time they won't be up against an unsuspecting minimal police force, we'll roll out the real military who would be fully prepared and they'll have to ask themselves if it's worth it.




That depends on what happens. The military won't be deployed unless we're in truly dire straits. I expect the FBI and local law enforcement will be the ones who will handle the brunt of it, with some assistance from the National Guard.


----------



## Eric

Renzatic said:


> That depends on what happens. The military won't be deployed unless we're in truly dire straits. I expect the FBI and local law enforcement will be the ones who will handle the brunt of it, with some assistance from the National Guard.



Right, if they can deploy the National Guard for black people peacefully marching they can do it for a bunch of white nutjobs with assault weapons. I have a feeling they won't make the same mistake twice with these people after Jan 6.


----------



## shadow puppet

Eric said:


> I don't disagree here, but this time they won't be up against an unsuspecting minimal police force, we'll roll out the real military who would be fully prepared and they'll have to ask themselves if it's worth it.



I agree.  However, I don't know where this will happen.  It could be anywhere.  Hopefully there will be a police force to quelch it but with so many ready-to-boil-over crazies out there now, I honestly don't know.


----------



## ronntaylor

With the conviction of some of the Kidnap Klansmen (of Mich Gov Whitmer) and the history of 1/6, I hope people are much, much smarter. Of course, I just really hope the Feds and state govs are prepared to thwart any repeat. Anything even approaching another 1/6 should be smashed and the perps harshly dealt with: quick arrest, prosecution and long sentences upon conviction. And no more short-term sentences/plea deals this time around.


----------



## Joe

Eric said:


> Two systems of justice from
> WhitePeopleTwitter




They let one of the white supremacist on house arrest out so he can go to a renaissance fair.  That's what we mean when we say these fuckers have white privilege.


----------



## sgtaylor5

The second amendment folks, even the ones who've been in the military, will be surprised if the real US Army is called out. The National Guard is more likely, but they have the same equipment to use, if there's the political will to let them use it. You'd need heavy machine guns, MANPADS, artillery and the like to fight a _real_ military. Handguns and rifles and even IEDs won't cut it then; this next war (please, Lord, no) won't be like the last Civil War.

I was reading on another Substack I'm short-term subscribing to (Jared Yates Sexton) and the comments were very revealing and mostly polite and literate: most of the opposition was wanting much less government interference in their lives and they wanted equal hard justice meted out to the Clintons, the Bushes before Trump, et al gets indicted. The general feeling was there were a lot of rich folks that needed culling by the law first.

"Less government interference" versus Godly self-control (I don't care which faith you hold to) are usually inversely related to each other; a people with more Godly self-control needs less government interference to run properly. This society is getting out of control internally and an authoritarian government is the natural result:

“It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." – Reverend Gardiner Spring
“Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants.” – William Penn

I'm a Christian, but I don't overtly proselytize; I'd rather live it and maybe make a careful comment now and then and let others make up their own minds. I left the Right after 14 years and I know them too well (too much fear and not enough room for grace to operate). I believe that all these crazies who say they're Christian but don't live it truly are anything *but*! See The Christian Left for an alternative way to think. My pastor thinks that American Christianity is going to have to die and be rebuilt from scratch in the future, and I think I agree with him.


----------



## Cmaier

Judge responded to Trump’s weird filing. Orders Trump to explain, by Aug. 26, why she has any jurisdiction over the case, what the hell he wants her to actually do, why judge Reinhart isn’t the proper judge to handle this, and whether/why the DoJ hasn’t been served a copy of the “complaint.”


----------



## ronntaylor

Joe said:


> They let one of the white supremacist on house arrest out so he can go to a renaissance fair. That's what we mean when we say these fuckers have white privilege.



This is the bucket of BS I really, really detest. These punks should not be allowed these privileges. People are still locked up for petty drug possession and small, nonviolent crimes. And these insurrectionists are allowed  to go on vacation, low (if any) bail, and given light sentences for absolute treasonous, traitorous crimes. If they want to plead guilty, do so for all the crimes charged with no promises of light sentences.


----------



## Joe

ronntaylor said:


> This is the bucket of BS I really, really detest. These punks should not be allowed these privileges. People are still locked up for petty drug possession and small, nonviolent crimes. And these insurrectionists are allowed  to go on vacation, low (if any) bail, and given light sentences for absolute treasonous, traitorous crimes. If they want to plead guilty, do so for all the crimes charged with no promises of light sentences.




The guy sat on Nancy Pelosi's desk and went through her documents and he gets to leave house arrest to go to a fair when he should be in PRISON! The fucker gets house arrest, while people are in prison and jails for lesser crimes. This country is gross.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Joe said:


> If they arrest Trump his cult is gonna go ballistic! We will have another 1/6 on our hands.




I don’t see it. I see rando lunatics doing bad stuff, I don’t see another coordinated attack like J6. That was their one chance and they blew it.

They’ll get over it quick. Once Trump is unable to hog the media spotlight and put out stupid statements, his base will pivot to another cult leader. Probably lots of dumb comments on social media, but they’ll have to retreat to the dark web when they stop finding places to host their content, and most people dumb enough to believe Trump will have trouble navigating the dark web. They’ll resort to using things like FB Messenger and WhatsApp, making them easy targets for the FBI and law enforcement.

I’m more worried about lunatic politicians than armed lunatics, even though that’s certainly a concern.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> I’m more worried about lunatic politicians than armed lunatics, even though that’s certainly a concern.




They're both matters of concern, but the more damaging actors in the long run are those who try to tear federal government down instead of making it more responsive to perceived needs for change.  And it doesn't matter if they are pols like Boebert or Jordan or just voters who worship at Trump's feet.

I have no use for people who stand up to run for federal office or take positions in agencies while meaning to help make those very agencies dysfunctional once they're sworn into their jobs.

I don't understand people who vote for people like that either.  

 Once upon a time we understood (and taught) more about what federal agencies actually provide this country, largely behind the scenes.

It's weird that so much objection to federal government comes from the right, and from largely rural areas.

The residents of those areas are pretty dependent on not only federal tax dollars but data services as well They rely on data for weather, crop planting, harvest and markets that only the government manages to collect and crank out into useful reports. 

The whole country's economy depends upon that info -  about food production and distribution, export plans, commodity trading, allocation of SNAP and WIC benefits, provision for enterprise zones, jobs development, apprenticeship programs, public health and special education grants...   if they burn the federal government down,  who the heck do they think will step in at state level and reinvent those wheels, never mind the revenue to maintain them? 

So people could lay off the misguided hatred for "federal gummint"...  and all the partisan and xenophobic pot stirring too, gee.   Ya know if the bottom 90% of the USA ever set their tribalism down and worked together to effect change, well either it would finally result in legislation that wold make "equal opportunity" less of a joke, or else the top 0.1% would finally learn exactly what "no walls high enough" really means.

 I'd like to think we'd all prefer the legislative approach and work together to get more equitable traction in our economy and society,  but we'd have to get the big money out of politics first.  Right now no matter who wins,  it's K street drafting the bills and re-seating the pols who cast the votes to pass those bills. 

Representative government my a^^.  It's representative of oligarchs and plutocrats.  Meanwhile we're down here taking whacks at each other over race, gender, religion, culture and yeah, party of registration...

Burning it all down is not the answer.  The answer is building it back up from the bottom and quit being paranoid about the guy next door getting a leg up first.   We'd all get a leg up if we'd quit entertaining ourselves to death taking each other down while the pols, the lobbyists and CEOs of behemoths party on.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

GermanSuplex said:


> Since Trump's lawyers (including that gal that's been doing the rounds on TV recently) signed documents stating Trump had turned over all classified documents - which could probably be used as proof anything he held onto was criminal - it also puts them in quite the bind. That's not something you just sign hastily. They would be tasked with going through documents and consulting with their client to ensure they truthfully believed he had no more classified info.



I believe the document they signed included the phrase "to our knowledge" so it might be hard to prove they lied (which it's likely they did).


----------



## Joe

GermanSuplex said:


> I’m more worried about lunatic politicians than armed lunatics, even though that’s certainly a concern.




Yes, they tweet stupid shit and the cult members listen. That's why you have Proud Boys attacking gay bars and drag brunch because idiot Republican politicians are tweeting that they're grooming kids.


----------



## MEJHarrison

fooferdoggie said:


> Donald Trump Jr. Offers Wildest Defense Yet Of His Dad Over Mar-A-Lago Documents​Donald Trump Jr. now claims it would probably be a “good” thing if his father, a private citizen living at a resort in Florida, was still holding on to the nuclear codes.
> “By the way, for the record, I’d say that if Donald Trump actually still had the nuclear codes, it’d probably be good,” he said Monday at a campaign event for Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.).
> 
> “Our enemies might actually be like, ‘OK, maybe let’s not mess with them,’ unlike when they look at Joe Biden and they say, ‘You know what? We should attack now.’”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Donald Trump Jr. Offers Wildest Defense Yet Of His Dad Over Mar-A-Lago Documents
> 
> 
> If Donald Trump still had the nuclear codes, it would probably be a "good" thing anyway, his son argued.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com




I certainly don't know what he had and what was taken.  But nuclear codes?  They're codes.  I'd think they'd change the codes rather than send in the FBI to retrieve them.  I'd guess if he had "nuclear codes", they were already changed anyway.  The whole thing just doesn't really make any sense at all.  You don't go to this much effort to get codes that could be, and most likely are, changed on a regular basis.  And I'd bet my next paycheck Jr. knows that it wasn't "nuclear codes" they were after.

It's just lies and misdirection.


----------



## lizkat

Joe said:


> Yes, they tweet stupid shit and the cult members listen. That's why you have Proud Boys attacking gay bars and drag brunch because idiot Republican politicians are tweeting that they're grooming kids.




So f'g irresponsible.  And always talking about personal responsibility.  Do these pols hear themselves?


----------



## GermanSuplex

MEJHarrison said:


> I certainly don't know what he had and what was taken.  But nuclear codes?  They're codes.  I'd think they'd change the codes rather than send in the FBI to retrieve them.  I'd guess if he had "nuclear codes", they were already changed anyway.  The whole thing just doesn't really make any sense at all.  You don't go to this much effort to get codes that could be, and most likely are, changed on a regular basis.  And I'd bet my next paycheck Jr. knows that it wasn't "nuclear codes" they were after.
> 
> It's just lies and misdirection.




Yeah, I’d love to hear that argument in court. That’s like arguing any prisoner smart enough to escape prison should be set free and made the warden, since he’d do a better job of keeping an eye on things. Or perhaps a bank robber arguing that the cash is clearly safer with them, _clearly_, since it was so easy to take from the bank.

These people are having a stupid shit-saying contest, and in the wake of the FBI search of Trump’s home, this is a really competitive contest.

Luckily, it’s easy to say all this stupid stuff in public and on social media, but I doubt anyone would try to make that argument in court.

It’s also pretty revealing how cavalier Junior says this silly nonsense, with absolutely zero self-awareness. I guess that’s what happens when you’re given free reign to break ethics, norms and laws all your life and instead of being punished, are rewarded. That time may be swiftly coming to an end for this family of future felons.


----------



## GermanSuplex

mac_in_tosh said:


> I believe the document they signed included the phrase "to our knowledge" so it might be hard to prove they lied (which it's likely they did).




Either way you slice it, that signed document isn’t a good look for Trump. I would totally believe Trump lies to his lawyers. But Trump can’t at once claim he was cooperating, didn’t know he still had documents, that they were stashed in a corner or forgotten about, while at the same time claiming he had a standing order to declassify them, had every right to keep them, etc.

Even this demand for a special master is a risky move for him. If he just wants to say that the FBI is going to plant evidence, that’s not going to fly with a judge. And if he claims to know what they have and want it back, then that wipes out his argument about forgetting about what he had, not knowing he had it, etc.

In essence, he’s arguing these documents are his, which contradicts any other argument he could possibly make.

So what this means for his lawyers, I don’t know, but it’s not good for Trump. I would put money on him being in serious shit. These delay tactics, bogus motions and his never ending stream of public statements will be used against him in any potential indictment.

Also, we don’t know what the FBI has already. They subpoenaed video footage from Mar-A-Lago in June, and probably want more footage prior to the FBI search.

*Also, I don’t know who’s idea it was to release this letter, but it crushes about a half-dozen of Trump’s arguments. It was a lame attempt to tie Biden to the investigation, which it absolutely doesn’t, but also proves Trump was being treated with kid gloves. And why the fuck is he still trying to exert executive privilege!?! Is our system designed for a president to do whatever they want and take whatever they want on the way out, and use retroactive claims of executive privilege and declassification authority? What a joke, this is bad for him.









						Full text of National Archives letter to Trump on classified documents
					

Just the News has obtained the full text of the letter that the National Archives sent to former President Donald Trump requesting classified documents




					justthenews.com


----------



## Runs For Fun

sgtaylor5 said:


> The second amendment folks, even the ones who've been in the military, will be surprised if the real US Army is called out. The National Guard is more likely, but they have the same equipment to use, if there's the political will to let them use it. You'd need heavy machine guns, MANPADS, artillery and the like to fight a _real_ military. Handguns and rifles and even IEDs won't cut it then; this next war (please, Lord, no) won't be like the last Civil War.
> 
> I was reading on another Substack I'm short-term subscribing to (Jared Yates Sexton) and the comments were very revealing and mostly polite and literate: most of the opposition was wanting much less government interference in their lives and they wanted equal hard justice meted out to the Clintons, the Bushes before Trump, et al gets indicted. The general feeling was there were a lot of rich folks that needed culling by the law first.
> 
> "Less government interference" versus Godly self-control (I don't care which faith you hold to) are usually inversely related to each other; a people with more Godly self-control needs less government interference to run properly. This society is getting out of control internally and an authoritarian government is the natural result:
> 
> “It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." – Reverend Gardiner Spring
> “Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants.” – William Penn
> 
> I'm a Christian, but I don't overtly proselytize; I'd rather live it and maybe make a careful comment now and then and let others make up their own minds. I left the Right after 14 years and I know them too well (too much fear and not enough room for grace to operate). I believe that all these crazies who say they're Christian but don't live it truly are anything *but*! See The Christian Left for an alternative way to think. My pastor thinks that American Christianity is going to have to die and be rebuilt from scratch in the future, and I think I agree with him.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> Even this demand for a special master is a risky move for him.




I think that's going to be a non-starter in the judge's eyes, especially if tump's lawyers demand the special master be given access to _all_ documents (not that they need it). That's not going to happen unless the special master (usually a retired judge) has the necessary security clearances (Top Secret/SCI SAP) to examine the documents. Maybe they could recruit a sitting FISA judge who does have such clearances. I suspect trump's lawyers will reject that - just because.  Clearing anybody else via an extended background investigation else would take a year or more. Perhaps it could be accelerated some.


----------



## GermanSuplex

citynaps said:


> I think that's going to be a non-starter in the judge's eyes, especially if tump's lawyers demand the special master be given access to _all_ documents (not that they need it). That's not going to happen unless the special master (usually a retired judge) has the necessary security clearances (Top Secret/SCI SAP) to examine the documents. Maybe they could recruit a sitting FISA judge who does have such clearances. I suspect trump's lawyers will reject that - just because.  Clearing anybody else via an extended background investigation else would take a year or more. Perhaps it could be accelerated some.




To be fair, a respected lawyer who turned down the chance to represent Trump in this case said the first thing he'd do would be to ask for a special master. This lawyer is a respected guy, and he was respectful of Trump, saying he turned down the offer due to time issues, not because he feared being paid or anything like that.

But this guy is a seasoned pro. Trump essentially admitted in his request for a special master that he has classified documents, claiming they are protected by "executive privilege". His request - in typical Trump fashion - also included bluster about him being the lead polling candidate for 2024 and a victim of the Russian investigation. The idea may have been a standard legal move, but its clear his lawyers are amateur hour. Its probably inexperienced lawyers combined with Trump being the one who's actually acting as his own lead counsel.

I don't see the request being honored. They've already had the material two weeks, and Trump's concession he had the documents will probably hinder any argument he had. That's just my amateur prediction though, who knows.


----------



## Alli

You get arrested for an ounce of weed in some states, you’re tried, sentenced, and jailed within a few days. Why the fuck do we have to wait until October for Steve Bannon to be sentenced for a crime he has already been found guilty of? That’s even worse than letting someone off to go on vacation or to a RenFair.


----------



## Eric

Fox News in the upside down.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/wwg686


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> You get arrested for an ounce of weed in some states, you’re tried, sentenced, and jailed within a few days. Why the fuck do we have to wait until October for Steve Bannon to be sentenced for a crime he has already been found guilty of? That’s even worse than letting someone off to go on vacation or to a RenFair.




Someone hopes that before October,,,,  "the revolution will be televised".   ?

All this lot s/b in prison for having tried to overthrow a sitting US government doing its job per Constitution.

As for whether the prosecutions are political,  the Rs screaming about that now have forgotten how they felt when they were lying on the floor in the House under benches trying to put gas masks on while insurrectionists were trying to break into the chamber.  They forget their desperate calls to anyone they knew in the DoD or West Wing to get some help for the overwhelmed Capitol police.

Lotta fricken amnesia floating around the Republican Party ever since a few days after Jan 6 2021.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

GermanSuplex said:


> So what this means for his lawyers, I don’t know, but it’s not good for Trump. I would put money on him being in serious shit. These delay tactics, bogus motions and his never ending stream of public statements will be used against him in any potential indictment.



The sociopath Trump has been breaking laws all his life. He just gets his lawyers to file one motion after another, one delay after another, and has so far not been held accountable for any of his crimes other than the financial penalties he had to pay for his bogus university and charity, and one contribution appeal to his deplorables would more than make up for that. What's the status of the assault lawsuits filed by all those women? What happened to all those contractors that he routinely cheated? It's just a sad commentary on the U.S. system of justice that such a wretched human being can not only get away with these things but actually thrive here.


----------



## GermanSuplex

mac_in_tosh said:


> The sociopath Trump has been breaking laws all his life. He just gets his lawyers to file one motion after another, one delay after another, and has so far not been held accountable for any of his crimes other than the financial penalties he had to pay for his bogus university and charity, and one contribution appeal to his deplorables would more than make up for that. What's the status of the assault lawsuits filed by all those women? What happened to all those contractors that he routinely cheated? It's just a sad commentary on the U.S. system of justice that such a wretched human being can not only get away with these things but actually thrive here.




He should be indicted, jailed and deemed a flight risk who should be held in custody until trial. That would stop the stonewalling.


----------



## Yoused

GermanSuplex said:


> He should be indicted, jailed and deemed a flight risk who should be held in custody until trial. That would stop the stonewalling.



The upside to that is the maglitia horde storming the jail to free him, and how convenient it will be for the NG to close in and not have to take the idiots somewhere else.


----------



## Eric

There's a new sheriff in town and this guy does not play.

Justice Department releases unredacted Barr memo detailing decision not to charge Trump with obstructing Russia probe​








						Justice Department releases unredacted Barr memo detailing decision not to charge Trump with obstructing Russia probe | CNN Politics
					

Former Attorney General Bill Barr concluded that then-President Donald Trump couldn't be charged with obstructing the Russia probe because there wasn't an underlying conspiracy between his campaign and Russia, breaking with special counsel Robert Mueller's view on the matter, according to a...




					www.cnn.com


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Eric said:


> There's a new sheriff in town and this guy does not play.
> 
> Justice Department releases unredacted Barr memo detailing decision not to charge Trump with obstructing Russia probe​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Justice Department releases unredacted Barr memo detailing decision not to charge Trump with obstructing Russia probe | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> Former Attorney General Bill Barr concluded that then-President Donald Trump couldn't be charged with obstructing the Russia probe because there wasn't an underlying conspiracy between his campaign and Russia, breaking with special counsel Robert Mueller's view on the matter, according to a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com



Of course the Trump campaign colluded with Russia. It exchanged polling data with Russians. Of course Trump obstructed justice. He just got his stooge attorney general to say that he didn't. How much longer will this guy keep getting away with things, which now include an attempted coup and retaining documents with the nation's most sensitive secrets and lying to the FBI about having them?


----------



## Citysnaps

And some people will still blindly support trump no matter how much past un-American behavior is revealed.

That's something I'll never truly understand.


----------



## rdrr

citynaps said:


> And some people will still blindly support trump no matter how much past un-American behavior is revealed.
> 
> That's something I'll never truly understand.



Because 49.99% of the people you meet are below average intelligence.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I don't think Trump will be granted this special master to review the items taken from his home, but even if he was, he'd just attack the special master if things don't turn out his way.

"A VERY PARTISAN hack was appointed as "special master" to review the items taken from my beautiful home. This very unqualified and partisan attorney - who was a big fan of Obama and Crooked Hillary - also worked for the FBI under slipper James Comey. Just another chapter in the biggest witch hunt our country has ever seen!"

Delay, attack, project. Wash, rinse, repeat. Luckily, I don't see this working out for Trump the way he thinks it will.


----------



## ronntaylor

GermanSuplex said:


> I don't think Trump will be granted this special master to review the items taken from his home, but even if he was, he'd just attack the special master if things don't turn out his way.
> 
> "A VERY PARTISAN hack was appointed as "special master" to review the items taken from my beautiful home. This very unqualified and partisan attorney - who was a big fan of Obama and Crooked Hillary - also worked for the FBI under slipper James Comey. Just another chapter in the biggest witch hunt our country has ever seen!"
> 
> Delay, attack, project. Wash, rinse, repeat. Luckily, I don't see this working out for Trump the way he thinks it will.



It's all about delay, delay, delay. He can't justify possession of those docs. He can't excuse his continued thumbing his nose at the polite, respectful requests to have those illegally held docs. He has the goal of only delaying any case till the GQP is back in control of at least one chamber to thwart justice further.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

To summarize Trump's shifting responses for hoarding the material at Crime-A-Lago:

o All the documents were returned. (a lie)
o I have documents but I declassified them. (not true, besides some were beyond his power to declassify)
o Those highly classified documents were planted by the FBI. (so dozens of FBI and DOJ people got together to take Trump down, or, Trump is lying)
o Everybody takes work home. (but he's no longer president and besides he never did much work while he was)
o The material is protected by attorney-client privilege. (no)
o Obama did the same thing. (not true, and of course he used Obama's middle name)
o They're material for my presidential library. (a collection of coloring books would be more appropriate)

I may have left some out. I'm waiting for him to say that he had a document from the DOJ allowing him to keep the material but his dog ate it.


----------



## Citysnaps

rdrr said:


> Because 49.99% of the people you meet are below average intelligence.



I think there's more to it than that. One doesn't require above average intelligence to determine if someone is behaving immorally, or to suss out the difference between right and wrong behavior.


----------



## Eric

And here we go...









						U.S. judge orders release of redacted affidavit in Trump search by Friday
					

A federal judge in Florida on Thursday ordered the U.S. Justice Department to file a redacted version of its affidavit in support of the FBI's search of former President Donald Trump's home to be released to the public by Friday at noon.




					www.reuters.com
				



WASHINGTON, Aug 25 (Reuters) - A federal judge in Florida on Thursday ordered the U.S. Justice Department to file a redacted version of its affidavit in support of the FBI's search of former President Donald Trump's home to be released to the public by Friday at noon.


----------



## Renzatic

Eric said:


> And here we go...




The great battle of our time.


----------



## Eric

Sounds like the judge is releasing exactly what the DOJ has recommended and it will be heavily redacted. I wouldn't expect to see much here but it'll make for a good Friday news dump I guess.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The Trump muppets are already whining on social media... "Redacted!? What are they hiding!?"

So predictable and annoying.


----------



## Eric

CNN has a prediction.   

Seriously, this is why it's hard to watch cable news, it's all so sensationalized.


----------



## Yoused

Eric said:


> this is why it's hard to watch cable news




Well, I discovered about a decade ago that it is in fact possible to fail to watch cable news. Not that difficult, even. Sometimes I get stuck in front of local OTA news, but that is fortunately comparatively brief (_hey, this sucks, switch over to the _Frasier_ rerun, or that Audie Murphy movie on_ Grit) and mostly muted, like a sort of electric fireplace while I peruse TA – although, the level of professional quality of our NBC affiliate, when it comes in, is miles above the others and sometimes worth paying attention to.


----------



## Yoused

Now we learn of a secret tunnel into Mar-a-Lago that drippy-head 4-seasons guy used 14 years ago when his presidential campaign was imploding and his solace was Ethyl & Al Cohol.

Apparently the tunnel goes under the boulevard, either to the beach or perhaps the country club next door and is an ideal feature for a secure location full of sensitive documents.


----------



## Macky-Mac

Yoused said:


> Now we learn of a secret tunnel into Mar-a-Lago that drippy-head 4-seasons guy used 14 years ago when his presidential campaign was imploding and his solace was Ethyl & Al Cohol.
> 
> Apparently the tunnel goes under the boulevard, either to the beach or perhaps the country club next door and is an ideal feature for a secure location full of sensitive documents.




back then he was the "moderate" republicans's last great hope.........but what a pathetic creature Giuliani has turned into


----------



## GermanSuplex

One thing I'm getting really tired of hearing about - not just in this case with the search of Trump's home - but also republicans as a whole refusing to comply with subpoenas and stonewalling investigations - is this claim that "its all political, there's an election coming up..."

There's ALWAYS an election "coming up". The idea that republicans in congress or politics can't even be questioned by law enforcement is a total joke. Brian Kemp has been fighting his subpoena - if he had complied when asked, that could have happened quietly weeks or months ago, far out from election. He's not even accused of any wrongdoing, he actually did the right thing in regards to the 2020 election. They just want his truthful knowledge of what happened.

Graham, Rudy, Trump, Navarro, Bannon... bunch of pathetic folks who are using the "political" excuse to avoid following the laws they expect everyone else to follow.


----------



## Alli

I hit this thread at exactly the right time. It is 12:04 Eastern, so I turned on the tube to see what it will be. They’re still waiting.

Hoping it’s all bad for TFG.


----------



## GermanSuplex

It’s out. MSNBC pouring over it as they speak with some established legal experts. Didn’t take a genius to see this wasn’t going to be good for Trump, but it ruins the argument he was “complying” or working with the DoJ.

Full reacted copy here…





__





						DocumentCloud
					






					www.documentcloud.org


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> It’s out. MSNBC pouring over it as they speak with some established legal experts. Didn’t take a genius to see this wasn’t going to be good for Trump, but it ruins the argument he was “complying” or working with the DoJ.
> 
> Full reacted copy here…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DocumentCloud
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.documentcloud.org



you would have thought they learned when they wanted to warrant reviled. but nope repeat the stupidity and keep asking.


----------



## Roller

GermanSuplex said:


> It’s out. MSNBC pouring over it as they speak with some established legal experts. Didn’t take a genius to see this wasn’t going to be good for Trump, but it ruins the argument he was “complying” or working with the DoJ.
> 
> Full reacted copy here…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DocumentCloud
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.documentcloud.org



Much of it is redacted, as expected, though it seems to bolster the argument in favor of the search.

But the letter from Trump's attorneys to Jay Bratt, the Chief of the Counterintelligence and Export Control Section in DOJ, is particularly interesting. One of the "bedrock" principles outlined begins with "DOJ must be insulated from political influence." Yeah, really. Just like Trump's DOJ under Sessions and then Barr wasn't politically influenced, or Jeffrey Clark had no political motivations in trying to take over the DOJ.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Bad news for Trump
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1563211004321751040/


----------



## Eric

Biden, when asked by reporters about it today "we will let the justice Department determine it". He, and the WH, have been smart to just sit back and let the DOJ do their job while keeping their distance, it's never been their place to serve the president, they serve the people.


----------



## GermanSuplex

As completely expected, the MAGA cult is attacking the affidavit for being redacted. And if it was released in full, the defense would pivot to being a "nothingburger".

The right-wing media has brainwashed their followers so badly that I still keep seeing the argument  "he could declassify anything he wanted as president!", which is stupid even if true - because why would he? It would render the whole classification system useless if a sitting president could just take the shit home and stash it in a closet at his country club.

But I thought we put that lame defense to rest within 48 hours of the FBI search being publicly disclosed. Yet if you go on Twitter or comment sections of right-wing news outlets, you keep hearing it parroted over and over.


----------



## Eric

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1563207069733228544/


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1563207069733228544/



You know its true or real when fox news wont report it.


----------



## Eric

Ruh Roh Raggy

When you've even lost Karl Rove
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1563216996694495240/


----------



## GermanSuplex

It’s disheartening to see the MAGA folks stand firm, regurgitating lies, misinformation or projection to protect their leader.

That is the fuel that gives Trump and his enablers belief they can double-down and continue their journey down the rabbit hole of lawlessness. I would not be surprised if Trump continues to obstruct and commit more crimes on his path to wiggle out of this predicament as well. It’s his modus operandi.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> It’s disheartening to see the MAGA folks stand firm, regurgitating lies, misinformation or projection to protect their leader.
> 
> That is the fuel that gives Trump and his enablers belief they can double-down and continue their journey down the rabbit hole of lawlessness. I would not be surprised if Trump continues to obstruct and commit more crimes on his path to wiggle out of this predicament as well. It’s his modus operandi.




Hopefully upcoming indictments supported by a trove of overwhelming evidence and witnesses will help ameliorate that. At least somewhat.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Things are heating up 








						'Trump will be indicted': Mar-a-Lago affidavit spells trouble for the former president and decimates his main defense
					

The affidavit is damning for Trump and throws a wrench into his claim that he's innocent because "it was all declassified," national security vets said.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Yoused

Eric said:


> When you've even lost Karl Rove




It is particularly troubling that people like Karl Rove and Liz Cheney and others seem to be acquiring a veneer of respectability over their  bodies of slime by merely looking reasonable when placed next to Individual-ONE. We must not lose sight of the fact that these are _not_ good and kind and decent people such as you might like to have running the country (running _from_ it, I would prefer).


----------



## MEJHarrison

citynaps said:


> Hopefully upcoming indictments supported by a trove of overwhelming evidence and witnesses will help ameliorate that. At least somewhat.




Maybe.  But the complete lack of evidence doesn't change their minds when it comes to election fraud, so I tend to think "evidence" isn't an important factor in their decision making.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Yoused said:


> It is particularly troubling that people like Karl Rove and Liz Cheney and others seem to be acquiring a veneer of respectability over their  bodies of slime by merely looking reasonable when placed next to Individual-ONE. We must not lose sight of the fact that these are _not_ good and kind and decent people such as you might like to have running the country (running _from_ it, I would prefer).




I think one of the main reasons these villains turned heroes (to some) hate Trump is because to them their master plan was going along just fine and while he may have advanced some of their plan he is also more than likely to derail all of it and set them way way back or to a point of no return.  He’s brought their plan to do nothing good for most people front and center.  There’s no ignoring it.  Nothing good comes from destabilizing everything, not the least of which is public opinion.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I’m hoping that Trump’s big mouth, his extreme disregard for the rule of law and the safety of others, and the far-right’s threats to several government institutions strengthens the resolve of the DoJ to come after him with the full force of the law. I’m ready for this shit-show to end.


----------



## Renzatic

Yoused said:


> It is particularly troubling that people like Karl Rove and Liz Cheney and others seem to be acquiring a veneer of respectability over their  bodies of slime by merely looking reasonable when placed next to Individual-ONE. We must not lose sight of the fact that these are _not_ good and kind and decent people such as you might like to have running the country (running _from_ it, I would prefer).




Now that we've seen the real bottom of the barrel, the scum around the rim doesn't seem all that bad.


----------



## sgtaylor5

Posting this newsletter in its entirety; HCR doesn't usually type in all caps, as below, which is significant.

*August 26, 2022*
*Heather Cox Richardson*
The Department of Justice (DOJ) today released the redacted affidavit that persuaded a judge to agree to issue a search warrant for FBI agents to look for classified documents at Mar-a-Lago, the property owned by the Trump Organization in Florida. 
It was bad. 
The affidavit explained to the judge the history behind the FBI’s request. 
On February 9, 2022, the National Archives and Records Administration (what did I say about archivists?) told the DOJ that after seven months of negotiations, on January 18 it had received 15 boxes of material that former president Trump had held at Mar-a-Lago. Those boxes contained “highly classified documents,” including some at the very most secret level of our intelligence: those involving our spies and informants. 
In those initial 15 boxes, FBI personnel found 184 classified documents. Sixty-seven were labeled CONFIDENTIAL, 92 were SECRET, 25 were TOP SECRET. Some were marked SCS, FISA, ORCON, NOFORN, and SI, the very highest levels of security, involving human intelligence, foreign surveillance, intelligence that cannot be shared with foreign governments, and intelligence that is compartmented to make sure no one has full knowledge of what is in it. The former president had made notes on “several” of the documents.
On June 8, 2022, a DOJ lawyer wrote to Trump’s lawyer to reiterate that Mar-a-Lago was not authorized to store classified information, and warned that the documents were not being handled properly. The DOJ lawyer asked that the material be secured in a single room at Mar-a-Lago “in their current condition until further notice.” 
Trump’s lawyers told the DOJ that presidents have the absolute authority to declassify documents—this is not true, by the way—but did not assert he had done so. 
The FBI opened a criminal investigation “to, among other things,” figure out how the classified records were taken from the White House and ended up at Mar-a-Lago, and to determine if other classified records might have been improperly taken and stored, and to figure out who might have taken and mishandled them. 
They concluded that there was good reason to think that more classified records remained at Mar-a-Lago and that investigators would find evidence that Trump and his allies were obstructing the government’s effort to recover the material. The person who made the affidavit said they were a special agent with the FBI, “familiar with efforts used to unlawfully collect, retain, and disseminate sensitive government information, including classified N[ational] D[efense] I[nformation].” They swore that “there is probable cause to believe” that locations at Mar-a-Lago “contain evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or other items illegally possessed.” 
The affidavit confirmed that the Department of Justice is “conducting a criminal investigation concerning the improper removal and storage of classified information in unauthorized spaces, as well as the unlawful concealment or removal of government records,” and asked for the affidavit to be sealed because “the items and information to be seized are relevant to an ongoing investigation and the FBI has not yet identified all potential criminal confederates nor located all evidence related to its investigation.”
Sidestepping Trump’s insistence that he could declassify whatever he wished when president, the affidavit specifies that the documents could cause damage even if they are not classified, and it notes that retaining “information related to the national defense” is illegal. 
The information that Trump stole classified documents itself was eye-popping, and then that he refused to return them was astonishing. Now, the knowledge of the extent of it, and that it included information from our human sources, is stunning. 
AND THIS WAS JUST THE AFFIDAVIT TO GET A SEARCH WARRANT TO GET MORE RETAINED DOCUMENTS… which the FBI did on August 8. 
We still don’t know what was in those more recently recovered boxes.
Trump is in serious trouble…and so are the rest of us. This stolen and mishandled classified intelligence compromises our security. The best-case scenario is that it was never seen by anyone who knew what they were looking at. Even that would mean that our allies have every reason to be leery about sharing information with us again. 
But that’s the best-case scenario. We have to wonder, who else now knows the secrets designed to keep Americans safe? Multiple news stories during Trump’s presidency noted that even then, Mar-a-Lago was notoriously insecure. And, unthinkable though it should be but sadly is not, what if secret documents have already been given or sold into the hands of foreign actors whose interests conflict with ours? 
I have been writing today about Trump’s first impeachment and the hearings where Marie Yovanovitch, Fiona Hill, and Alexander Vindman, immigrants all, who served our nation faithfully and fully, risked—and ultimately lost—their jobs to warn us that Trump was willing to compromise our national security for his own interests. 
“He has betrayed our national security, and he will do so again,” House impeachment manager Adam Schiff warned the Senate. “You can’t trust [Trump] to do the right thing. Not for one minute, not for one election, not for the sake of our country. You just can’t. He will not change and you know it.” Schiff begged them to say “enough.” 
But they would not, and they did not, and here we are.
—
Notes:



Tracy Walder @tracy_walder
 An explainer on the classification of docs trump had per the affidavit
August 26th 2022
1,541 Retweets5,010 Likes
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/08/mar-a-lago-documents-intelligence-us-national-security/671140/
https://www.propublica.org/article/any-half-decent-hacker-could-break-into-mar-a-lago
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/08/26/us/trump-search-affidavit-release.html



Adam Schiff @RepAdamSchiff
He has betrayed our national security, and he will do so again. He has compromised our elections, and he will do so again. You will not change him. You cannot constrain him. Truth matters little to him. What's right matters even less. And decency not at all. Enough. 


January 4th 2021
18,908 Retweets74,416 Likes
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/tr...-not-removing-trump-would-render-him-n1128766


----------



## GermanSuplex

The opinion piece above makes a good point - while conservatives are trying their best to discredit the affidavit and the investigations as a whole, that was just the cause for the search - who knows what he still had in his possession. Or what he did with the items he took. The original batch of material handed over should have been enough to prosecute him, but in typical Trump fashion, he held onto stuff, lied and obstructed afterwards.

He has no defense here. His “presumption of innocence” is perfectly true and valid from a legal perspective, but it’s about as practical as one of those mass shooters who’s taken into custody after a killing spree. We already know he’s guilty.


----------



## DT

Here's some additional gravy for the goings-on at MAL, to the surprise of nobody ...

From the article:

So this isn’t something that was stashed away in the pool shed at Donald’s House Of Felonies, but it is a helluva story that, incidentally, indicates why people in Washington were worried about classified documents stored insecurely down there.

Continued:






						They'll Let Just Anybody into Mar-a-Lago These Days
					

Can't imagine why that would be a problem.




					www.esquire.com


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Seen on MSNBC: Report: Woman posed as heiress to infiltrate Mar-a-Lago, Trump inner circle

This, together with other reports of unauthorized entries into Crime-A-Lago, points out just how vulnerable were the highly classified documents Trump stole.

I'm ready for this saga to end and am wondering if the DOJ decides to charge Trump they will wait until after the Nov. elections to do so. I'm also wondering if despite his predicament the sociopath is at some level enjoying all the attention. It's time to wrap things up. Anyone else would have been indicted a long time ago.


----------



## Citysnaps




----------



## Runs For Fun

mac_in_tosh said:


> Seen on MSNBC: Report: Woman posed as heiress to infiltrate Mar-a-Lago, Trump inner circle
> 
> This, together with other reports of unauthorized entries into Crime-A-Lago, points out just how vulnerable were the highly classified documents Trump stole.
> 
> I'm ready for this saga to end and am wondering if the DOJ decides to charge Trump they will wait until after the Nov. elections to do so. I'm also wondering if despite his predicament the sociopath is at some level enjoying all the attention. It's time to wrap things up. Anyone else would have been indicted a long time ago.



I saw this break yesterday but none of the major news outlets had picked it up so I was questioning it's validity. Looks like it's true which is quite worrying. Who knows how many people saw these documents. 

Also this was circulating around last night. Some evidence may point to a news story from last year about a bulletin sent out by the CIA about a high number of operatives being killed. Coincidence? I think not.


			https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/26/us/politics/trump-affidavit-intelligence-spies.html


----------



## Citysnaps

Runs For Fun said:


> Who knows how many people saw these documents.




Wouldn't be shocked at all if some of those documents were shown to impress and brag to important MAL visitors.


----------



## GermanSuplex

mac_in_tosh said:


> Seen on MSNBC: Report: Woman posed as heiress to infiltrate Mar-a-Lago, Trump inner circle
> 
> This, together with other reports of unauthorized entries into Crime-A-Lago, points out just how vulnerable were the highly classified documents Trump stole.
> 
> I'm ready for this saga to end and am wondering if the DOJ decides to charge Trump they will wait until after the Nov. elections to do so. I'm also wondering if despite his predicament the sociopath is at some level enjoying all the attention. It's time to wrap things up. Anyone else would have been indicted a long time ago.




The DoJ will be damned if they do, damned if they don’t regardless of what action they take, or when. If they indict or ramp up the investigation before the midterms, the cult will accuse it of happening solely to damage republicans in the midterms. If they wait until after the midterms, they’ll be accused of trying to stop Trump from running again.

That’s good, however; since the radical right will come up with a narrative no matter what, there’s no harm in just indicting Trump when they see fit, not when the cult sees fit. Because for them, Trump is infallible and should never be indicted for anything.

Besides, Trump is a private citizen. He hasn’t announced he’s running, he has no opponent, and I don’t really see why it would matter since he won’t be on a ballot for over two years anyways, when he’s 78 years old. Better to do it now or before he announces a run.

And for those who say the left is scared of him running again, he lost the popular vote twice and lost the 2020 election. And that was difficult; incumbents have an upper hand. Trump was given a free pass to re-election had he just dealt with the pandemic like a rational adult.

Joe Biden didn’t get the most votes in history because the left was so enthusiastic over him, he got the most votes ever because people wanted to get rid of the criminal moron occupying the White House. It’s hard to fathom Trump winning again, though it’s certainly possible. But I can’t imagine he’s grown his base at all. He has a majority of a minority of voters in his grasp.

All this is to say, Trump is a private citizen and they’d have no trouble indicting any other private citizen regardless of when the election is, so indict his ass and let him sit in a jail somewhere Palm Beach County until his trial.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> All this is to say, Trump is a private citizen and they’d have no trouble indicting any other private citizen regardless of when the election is, so indict his ass and let him sit in a jail somewhere Palm Beach County until his trial.




Maybe then I could finally move past the moment just before I had to suspend all disbelief to comprehend that this guy actually got the GOP's nomination in 2016.  Part of me is still back there thinking the GOP primary voters would have the sense to pick John Kasich or even Jeb Bush.   Silly me.   And it's only got worse since then,  the way that whole party caved in to help court Trump's base, which still has him up on a pedestal llike his feet aren't made of cheap clay.


----------



## Citysnaps




----------



## mac_in_tosh

So it appears that a Trump appointed judge may agree to the "special master" sought by Trump. Just more delay tactics. That person will have to be vetted and given all the necessary security clearances if he/she doesn't already have them. Of course, if the special master doesn't do what Trump wants, he'll complain that he/she wasn't fair, was from the deep state, was out to get him, etc. and delay even further.

Trump feels empowered in part because he still has support from the bulk of the GOP, a entity that has lost all consideration as a legitimate political party. The guy attempted to stay in power with a violent attack on the Capitol and now has stolen the most highly classified documents and lied about having them, but such treasonous activity is still not enough for the GOP to finally let go of him.

Sounds like Lindsey Graham's 2016 prediction is coming true: “If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed … and we will deserve it.” Just consider the Trump-like candidates up for election this year. Herschel Walker and Mehmet Oz are just celebrities with dubious pasts and no knowledge of, or particular interest in, governance, just like the reality t.v. star and failed businessman Donald Trump. It would have been unthinkable that such incompetent people would win nomination in the pre-Trump GOP. They make George W look like a statesman by comparison.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The problem a special master will have is that documents that may actually belong to Trump or are otherwise innocuous (like newspaper clippings) could in fact be evidence of a crime. If he is writing on the classified documents, unstaples them and intermingles them with his own, has matching ketchup fingerprints on them… that could be evidence of his recklessness and illegal handling and storage of them.

I don’t think Trump will be granted a special master. I’m not sure the hearing will be enough. This could just be the judge allowing his team a chance to argue their case, and I expect the DoJ to have valid arguments to rebut the request. But we’ll see.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Holy fucking shit.


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/08/27/trump-archives-records-war/
		




> Boxes of documents even came with Trump on foreign travel, following him to hotel rooms around the world — including countries considered foreign adversaries of the United States.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> *This could just be the judge allowing his team a chance to argue their case*, and I expect the DoJ to have valid arguments to rebut the request.




My feelings as well. Not providing that opportunity would cause a heap of tsunami generating outrage from the right.

The process of finding a qualified (retired judge, respected attorney, etc) special master and getting him/her appropriately cleared could take many months, and likely more than a year.  And that's exactly what trump and his legal team are hoping for.   That's not going to fly.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

GermanSuplex said:


> I don’t think Trump will be granted a special master. I’m not sure the hearing will be enough. This could just be the judge allowing his team a chance to argue their case, and I expect the DoJ to have valid arguments to rebut the request. But we’ll see.



One would hope, but this from ABC News: "A federal judge in Florida told the Justice Department on Saturday to provide her with more specific information about the classified records removed from former President Donald Trump's Florida estate and said *it was her “preliminary intent” to appoint a special master *in the case."


----------



## Cmaier

mac_in_tosh said:


> One would hope, but this from ABC News: "A federal judge in Florida told the Justice Department on Saturday to provide her with more specific information about the classified records removed from former President Donald Trump's Florida estate and said *it was her “preliminary intent” to appoint a special master *in the case."



Sure. She did that without even hearing arguments from the DoJ. And she probably doesn’t even have jurisdiction, so we’ll see how far this gets.  Chances are that when the DoJ gets a chance to explain that Trump mis-cited the law, and made up facts, she’ll change her mind.


----------



## shadow puppet

Oh FFS.  FTLOG someone please put a gag in Running Man Hawley.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1563994942170701824/


----------



## GermanSuplex

shadow puppet said:


> Oh FFS.  FTLOG someone please put a gag in Running Man Hawley.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1563994942170701824/




That’s a threat, more ginning up the base just like before Jan. 6

He won’t be a part of those riots, however. He’ll just salute the rioters and then sprint off to a bunker somewhere.

*Probably not a coincidence… I guess they’re not really against riots either.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> That’s a threat, more ginning up the base just like before Jan. 6
> 
> He won’t be a part of those riots, however. He’ll just salute the rioters and then sprint off to a bunker somewhere.
> 
> *Probably not a coincidence… I guess they’re not really against riots either.




Bring it.  Watch them side with the rioters and lose the cop vote.


----------



## Eric

Sorry but this was begging to be made.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I predict there will be _some_ rioting in the streets if Trump is indicted and convicted, but it will be far outweighed by the dancing in the streets.


----------



## Joe

GermanSuplex said:


> I predict there will be _some_ rioting in the streets if Trump is indicted and convicted, but it will be far outweighed by the dancing in the streets.




I'm throwing a party if that happens lmao


----------



## shadow puppet

Joe said:


> I'm throwing a party if that happens lmao



I'll bring nachos & margies.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> I predict there will be _some_ rioting in the streets if Trump is indicted and convicted, but it will be far outweighed by the dancing in the streets.




A dogs and cats dancing together in the streets kind of event!


----------



## mac_in_tosh

What an utter disgrace Lindsey Graham is. When he served as a JAG lawyer I wonder what he would have thought about someone who took top secret  documents and lied to the FBI about having them. But here is Senator Graham, ignoring the blatant threat to our national security posed by Trump, playing golf with him and kissing his butt every time Trump holds it out for him.

I don't get it. Trump lost the last election and got 7 million fewer votes than Biden. He also lost the popular vote to Clinton. It's not like he'd be a good bet to win in 2024. He was twice impeached, has a shady relationship with Russia, incited a coup and now lied about having highly classified documents but that's not enough for the GOP to let go? Are they anti-democratic at heart and view Trump as the vehicle to overthrow our form of government? Is it pure political ambition, party over country, and don't want to lose the base of deplorables?


----------



## Renzatic

mac_in_tosh said:


> Are they anti-democratic at heart and view Trump as the vehicle to overthrow our form of government? Is it pure political ambition, party over country, and don't want to lose the base of deplorables?




It's the latter. Though I'd say it's less about putting the party over the country, and more about putting their careers above anything else.

Trump is a storm they feel they have to outlast. They believe they can support him, pander to his base, and keep their jobs, while still controlling him behind the scenes. They've spent the last 6 years lying to themselves, enabling the very thing they sought to prevent, and now that it's finally reaching critical mass, they're getting increasingly desperate from walking that fine line between kissing Trump's ass, and keeping him in check.

No one ever sees themselves as the bad guys. People like Graham, and the rest of the republicans we all assumed would know better, see themselves as the ultimate victims of Trump's ambitions, bravely splitting the difference between saving the country they know and love from what they've unknowingly wrought, while still keeping the party viable under the withering pressure. The one question they probably ask themselves the most is "how can I do the right thing, while keeping myself from being hurt in the process?"

In the end, they're just stupid and cowardly.


----------



## Citysnaps

mac_in_tosh said:


> What an utter disgrace Lindsey Graham is. When he served as a JAG lawyer I wonder what he would have thought about someone who took top secret  documents and lied to the FBI about having them. But here is Senator Graham, ignoring the blatant threat to our national security posed by Trump, playing golf with him and kissing his butt every time Trump holds it out for him.
> 
> I don't get it. Trump lost the last election and got 7 million fewer votes than Biden. He also lost the popular vote to Clinton. It's not like he'd be a good bet to win in 2024. He was twice impeached, has a shady relationship with Russia, incited a coup and now lied about having highly classified documents but that's not enough for the GOP to let go? Are they anti-democratic at heart and view Trump as the vehicle to overthrow our form of government? Is it pure political ambition, party over country, and don't want to lose the base of deplorables?




Every five years or so I say to myself, eh, maybe Graham deserves a bit of respect. And then he goes off with  some kind of shithead move or position. And I then need to wake up again.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Citysnaps said:


> Every five years or so I say to myself, eh, maybe Graham deserves a bit of respect. And then he goes off with  some kind of shithead move or position. And I then need to wake up again.



he is one of the many boomerangs in office. or maybe a slinky going from one side to the other?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Citysnaps said:


> Every five years or so I say to myself, eh, maybe Graham deserves a bit of respect. And then he goes off with  some kind of shithead move or position. And I then need to wake up again.




He makes me think of the noble respectable face of slave ownership.  He was just born about 100 years too late. Nothing he has said.  He just puts off that vibe.


----------



## Citysnaps

fooferdoggie said:


> he is one of the many boomerangs in office. or maybe a slinky going from one side to the other?




I think Graham lost his moral compass when his good friend John McCain passed away four years ago. And he's now been irreversibly sucked into the orbit of the orange stench without McCain smacking him along the side of his head to pull him out.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> don’t think Trump will be granted a special master. I’m not sure the hearing will be enough. This could just be the judge allowing his team a chance to argue their case, and I expect the DoJ to have valid arguments to rebut the request. But we’ll see.




Oh indeed.   Here's a very cool thread worth reading through the whole thing.   This judge Trump has latched onto is no match for DoJ under Garland.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1564278284128591872/


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> he is one of the many boomerangs in office. or maybe a slinky going from one side to the other?




He needs to get sober,  for openers.


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> He needs to get sober,  for openers.



How could face his stupidity sober?


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> How could face his stupidity sober?




Good point.  Probably accounts for the waffle action from day to day. 



GermanSuplex said:


> I predict there will be _some_ rioting in the streets if Trump is indicted and convicted, but it will be far outweighed by the dancing in the streets.




I'll be cranking up the sound on my rack system to where the local wildlife runs for the other side of the mountain.


----------



## Eric

Oh FFS

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1564410388065697792/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> Oh FFS
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1564410388065697792/




This will be what the right defaults to in order to deflect from the more serious information Trump possessed. "We're really going to indict a president over some info on someone's sex life? Nobody got indicted when they had information on Trump's personal life!"


----------



## Runs For Fun

GermanSuplex said:


> I predict there will be _some_ rioting in the streets if Trump is indicted and convicted, but it will be far outweighed by the dancing in the streets.






Joe said:


> I'm throwing a party if that happens lmao






shadow puppet said:


> I'll bring nachos & margies.



I think we've got some leftover fireworks from the 4th of July


----------



## Cmaier

This is some of what the FBI found


----------



## Runs For Fun

Cmaier said:


> View attachment 17195
> 
> This is some of what the FBI found



A framed copy of https://time.com/magazine/us/5534351/march-4th-2019-vol-193-no-8-u-s/


----------



## Citysnaps

Cmaier said:


> View attachment 17195
> 
> This is some of what the FBI found




Wonder if that was the state in which it was found? Looks damning.


----------



## Eric

Sounds like the RNC has had it with Trump raising his own money without cutting them in. Almost like Trump is a well known con man and Republicans are just now realizing the truth that's been in front of them this entire time.

RNC not paying legal fees over Trump's Mar-a-Lago document investigation: Report​








						RNC not paying legal fees over Trump's Mar-a-Lago document investigation: Report
					

The Republican National Committee has so far footed the bill for much of former President Donald Trump's legal woes, though it won't be helping on matters stemming from the FBI’s investigation and retrieval of documents at his Florida estate.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com
				






			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?


----------



## Cmaier

Citysnaps said:


> Wonder if that was the state in which it was found? Looks damning.



No.  They spread it out.

I read the government’s brief and it is good.  Some very damning stuff in there.  For example, the passports we keep hearing about were found in a desk drawer along with a bunch of these sorts of documents, which shows that Trump personally handled them.  Same with a bunch of other personal property that was taken and the gov’t won’t return because of its “evidentiary value.”

Also, “this investigation is not simply about efforts to recover improperly retained Presidential records...”

The government also alleges that after Trump’s lawyer signed the letter saying there were no more records, and that everything that had existed was in the storage room, they found out that Trump (or his monkeys) removed additional stuff from the storage room and put it in other places so that it would not be found if the FBI went back to the storage room.

And the government had good reason to go back to the storage room, because when they went there at the time they received the letter saying nothing else was left to turn over, they were allowed into the storage room but the FBI agents were not allowed to open any boxes or look in any drawers.


----------



## Citysnaps

Eric said:


> Almost like Trump is a well known con man and Republicans are just now realizing the truth that's been in front of them this entire time.




Jeeez, it's taken them 6-7 years to figure out what trump's about? That says a ton about their judgment.

Deep inside I always knew he was a grifting charlatan. When he mocked NYT journalist Serge Kovaleski during a campaign stop in 2015 that permanently sealed the deal forever as to how evil he is inside.


----------



## Cmaier




----------



## Cmaier

And… there’s already a grand jury that issued the subpoenas for this stuff. Trump’s goose is cooked.


----------



## Citysnaps

Wonder if there's anything interesting on the video surveillance tapes? They were also seized, right?


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> And… there’s already a grand jury that issued the subpoenas for this stuff. Trump’s goose is cooked.



You have to wonder what, if anything, he actually did with it. I know just holding on to them is a crime but if that's all he did will it be enough for them to want to indict? Knowing Trump it's hard to imagine he didn't use that information somewhere for personal gain, hopefully that risk assessment will flesh it out.


----------



## Renzatic

You can tell how desperate they are by the way they keep presenting evidence against him.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Rest assured, this whole thing may have started out as a quiet attempt to get government property back, but that ship sailed long ago.

What was in those documents, why did he take them, what did he do with them, why did he refuse to give them back? Being an egomaniac who wants important stuff explains some of it, but at some point, I wan republicans to answer - classified or not - why would he do this? The republican line of "a president can declassify anything they want at any reason for any time" doesn't answer why he'd want to. If they demand transparency, Trump could clear a lot of this up on his own without the FBI. In theory, anyways, because it would involve him telling the truth, which we know he's incapable of.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> You have to wonder what, if anything, he actually did with it. I know just holding on to them is a crime but if that's all he did will it be enough for them to want to indict? Knowing Trump it's hard to imagine he didn't use that information somewhere for personal gain, hopefully that risk assessment will flesh it out.




Given how easy it is to make digital copies, he, or another individual could have already distributed this information to "interested parties".


----------



## Cmaier

Hilarious.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> Sounds like the RNC has had it with Trump raising his own money without cutting them in. Almost like Trump is a well known con man and Republicans are just now realizing the truth that's been in front of them this entire time.
> 
> RNC not paying legal fees over Trump's Mar-a-Lago document investigation: Report​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RNC not paying legal fees over Trump's Mar-a-Lago document investigation: Report
> 
> 
> The Republican National Committee has so far footed the bill for much of former President Donald Trump's legal woes, though it won't be helping on matters stemming from the FBI’s investigation and retrieval of documents at his Florida estate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?



man talk about slow to catch on. so if they are so easily fooled they are pretty much useless as some kind of control.


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> Hilarious.
> 
> View attachment 17207



He's always the funniest parody of himself, you get why SNL had such a hard time writing for him because the implausible exaggerations are just too real.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Cmaier said:


> And… there’s already a grand jury that issued the subpoenas for this stuff. Trump’s goose is cooked.



I feel like an indictment will be coming soon for stealing top secret documents. I wonder though if they will get him on anything with January 6th. If not now would they be able to indict him later on that?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump isn't getting a special master - DoJ clapback was brutal..



			https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/DOJgov.uscourts.flsd.618763.48.1_1.pdf


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Runs For Fun said:


> I feel like an indictment will be coming soon for stealing top secret documents. I wonder though if they will get him on anything with January 6th. If not now would they be able to indict him later on that?





Wishful thinking and unlikely, but it would be nice if just one case landed him in prison where he'll spend the rest of his life battling further cases.  I'm sure suddenly he'd not be interested in his mountain of delay tactics he reflexively uses.  But even without those there would probably be enough cases where he'd die before they all go to court.


----------



## Renzatic

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Wishful thinking and unlikely, but it would be nice if just one case landed him in prison where he'll spend the rest of his life battling further cases.  I'm sure suddenly he'd not be interested in his mountain of delay tactics he reflexively uses.  But even without those there would probably be enough cases where he'd die before they all go to court.




There's absolutely no way Trump will avoid an indictment by this point. The charges have been presented, the crime illustrated, the evidence displayed for all the world to see. For Garland to go this far, and not push things to their inevitable conclusion would be unimaginably stupid on his part.

It's going to happen, though I wouldn't expect to see any movement on it until after the midterms.


----------



## Eric

Renzatic said:


> There's absolutely no way Trump will avoid an indictment by this point. The charges have been presented, the crime illustrated, the evidence displayed for all the world to see. For Garland to go this far, and not push things to their inevitable conclusion would be unimaginably stupid on his part.
> 
> It's going to happen, though I wouldn't expect to see any movement on it until after the midterms.



I'm split on this one, it seems like it will be legally warranted but at the same time Trump has gotten to slide on literally every heinous thing he's ever done.


----------



## Alli

Joe said:


> I'm throwing a party *WHEN* that happens lmao



Fixed it for ya.


----------



## Renzatic

Eric said:


> I'm split on this one, it seems like it will be legally warranted but at the same time Trump has gotten to slide on literally every heinous thing he's ever done.




Trump was saved previously because he had the protections of the highest office in the land, an entire political party backing him, a DOJ acting as his personal defense, and no smoking gun you could beat over their heads.

That's not the case here. Even if the Republicans still continue to support Trump, the case against him is so damning, so open and shut, that they can't rely on the vagaries to help them save face. They're being faced with the choice to either to continue to serve and protect America, or throw it all away for Trump.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Renzatic said:


> There's absolutely no way Trump will avoid an indictment by this point. The charges have been presented, the crime illustrated, the evidence displayed for all the world to see. For Garland to go this far, and not push things to their inevitable conclusion would be unimaginably stupid on his part.
> 
> It's going to happen, though I wouldn't expect to see any movement on it until after the midterms.




Yeah, but all it takes is one MAGA hat owner on the jury to derail the whole thing.


----------



## Renzatic

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Yeah, but all it takes is one MAGA hat owner on the jury to derail the whole thing.




The thing is, they'll never get that not guilty verdict. The absolute best they can hope for is a hung jury, which will only lead to another trial.


----------



## Alli

DT said:


> Given how easy it is to make digital copies, he, or another individual could have already distributed this information to "interested parties".



I don’t doubt he has already done so.


----------



## GermanSuplex

From the DOJ response objecting to a special master;

"Plaintiff’s Motion, in fact, asserts that “[t]he documents seized at Mar-a-Lago on August 8, 2022 . . . were created during his term as President.” D.E. 1 at 15. These are precisely the types of documents that likely constitute Presidential records."

By admitting these are presidential records, he essentially admits he has no authority over them. The DoJ completed its examination of everything they took... Trump's lawyers may be hanging him and offering further evidence for the government with their lame delay tactics.

Also:

_Evidence of commingling personal effects with documents bearing classification markings is relevant evidence of the statutory offenses under investigation._

Whining about how your personal stuff is mixed up with top secret documents isn't exactly a great defense either, which the government was correct to put out there. Trump's personal artifacts mixed with the documents is proof of mishandling, possibly willfully (which we already know is the case).


----------



## Clix Pix

When this goes to trial, is there a possibility that the ruling could be NGRI (Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity).....in which case he'd wind up going to a federal psychiatric facility such as St Elizabeth's in DC rather than prison?


----------



## Alli

Clix Pix said:


> When this goes to trial, is there a possibility that the ruling could be NGRI (Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity).....in which case he'd wind up going to a federal psychiatric facility such as St Elizabeth's in DC rather than prison?



Doubtful.


----------



## Renzatic

Alli said:


> Doubtful.




He has way too much pride to attempt an insanity plea. Even then, the amount of excuses and accusations he's made since is, by itself, proof that he was entirely cognizant of what he did.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Clix Pix said:


> When this goes to trial, is there a possibility that the ruling could be NGRI (Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity).....in which case he'd wind up going to a federal psychiatric facility such as St Elizabeth's in DC rather than prison?




The closest he could possibly attempt is ignorance of the law via surrounding himself with the best (worst) people.  But I think he pretty much killed that excuse opportunity by not turning over the documents when they were requested multiple times.   

Maybe they should try not guilty by reason of being a sociopath.  That would probably be more accurate.


----------



## thekev

Renzatic said:


> The thing is, they'll never get that not guilty verdict. The absolute best they can hope for is a hung jury, which will only lead to another trial.




I suspect he would spin that as not guilty, and use it in his fundraising efforts.


----------



## fooferdoggie

thekev said:


> I suspect he would spin that as not guilty, and use it in his fundraising efforts.



I am suprised trump doesn ot sue needing top go to Mcdonalds as a excuse to fund raise to make himself richer.


----------



## Renzatic

thekev said:


> I suspect he would spin that as not guilty, and use it in his fundraising efforts.




I wonder how far he can push those fundraisers until they're considered outright fraud?

Can't wait to find out.


----------



## Renzatic

fooferdoggie said:


> I am suprised trump doesn ot sue needing top go to Mcdonalds as a excuse to fund raise to make himself richer.




Dem hamburders ain't free, brah! Gots to get my scratch for mah hamburders!


----------



## Eric

Creative headline from Salon...

"Lordy there are pics”: Legal experts say Trump lawyers may need their own lawyers after DOJ filing​








						Experts: Trump lawyers may need their own lawyers after new DOJ filing
					

DOJ details evidence of obstruction of justice — and releases damning photo of "top secret" docs at Mar-a-Lago.




					www.salon.com


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> Creative headline from Salon...
> 
> "Lordy there are pics”: Legal experts say Trump lawyers may need their own lawyers after DOJ filing​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experts: Trump lawyers may need their own lawyers after new DOJ filing
> 
> 
> DOJ details evidence of obstruction of justice — and releases damning photo of "top secret" docs at Mar-a-Lago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.salon.com



when you pick only the best. Man I think trump could be responsible for a whole new school to educate lawyers just to keep up with his turnover.


----------



## Eric

When even Fox & Friends are questioning you...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1564978153017282560/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> When even Fox & Friends are questioning you...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1564978153017282560/




That's a pretty measured response from Noem... I mean, it was weak, but its a far cry "from they planted evidence" and "Who cares? What about Hillary".

This isn't an email server from someone who may have - carelessly - actually did try to take her work home. These are actual documents that did not belong where they were.

But if she's looking to find out if he actually declassified the documents, everyone will be sad to find out he didn't. There will be no proof of him declassifying them, which is why he's trying to spin it as the fact they were at his home automatically means "they were declassified". It's a convenient argument, but its a lie.

Lots of good info in this Twitter thread, including one hilarious point - the information that has come out today is, again, because of Trump's actions. If Trump had handled his transition appropriately, we wouldn't be here. Had he complied with a subpoena to return the documents, we probably wouldn't be here. If he hadn't announced the search of his home, we wouldn't have known about it (at least as soon as we did). And if it wasn't for a bogus delay-tactic request for a "special master", we wouldn't have this information.

You don't need to leak when you can let the subject force you to release information!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1564827484943798272/


----------



## fooferdoggie

man trump will hold the record of the most lawyers fired most disbarred most reprimanded and most ripped off of any single entity. something to be proud of.


----------



## Yoused

Clix Pix said:


> … the ruling could be NGRI …



I would expect him to plead NGRYAIM – not guilty by reason of you are all insane, man.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I’ve said politics is a sport played without a ball. And this whole thing with Trump is like a bull rider with his hand caught in the rope. Trump is flailing, the DoJ is on POINT with their rebuttals. Exposing more details of Trump’s crimes at his request, pretty much.

Dan Bongino called a panelist a liar when she said Trump was subpoenaed for this stuff. And it covered anything physically labeled as classified, regardless of its actual classification. Trump is directly involved. He didn’t declassify this stuff, and it wouldn’t matter if he did, that’s not what’s alleged. But it does make all of this worse.

I think that Trump lawyer who did the rounds may be in some legal jeopardy as well. Either she lied or Trump did, but someone broke the law. Probably more than once.

I love the title of this article… 








						New legal filings paint Trump as a flailing liar surrounded by lackeys | Lloyd Green
					

‘I’m going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information,’ Trump once vowed. As promises go, that one aged badly




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

It would probably be pretty easy to identify and disqualify Trump supporters from the potential jury pool. Just ask them if they respect the law and they’ll answer with some iteration of “It depends.”


----------



## GermanSuplex

Oh, so you admit you had them…. JFC this guy is a stupid liar. How can anyone take him seriously? “Nah, those stolen sensitive documents weren’t lying around, they were in a box, neatly stashed away! In a corner, a big, beautiful corner of my fabulous north wing, in a closet behind my bag of clubs.”


----------



## Renzatic

GermanSuplex said:


> Oh, so you admit you had them…. JFC this guy is a stupid liar. How can anyone take him seriously? “Nah, those stolen sensitive documents weren’t lying around, they were in a box, neatly stashed away! In a corner, a big, beautiful corner of my fabulous north wing, in a closet behind my bag of clubs.”




"I'm not guilty of murder! I'm totally innocent! You're framing me! And anyway, I shot that guy in the chest, not the head like you're all saying."


----------



## GermanSuplex

They found documents in his desk alongside his passport. This is the biggest scandal in political history by a guy who ran on a less-corrupt version of this as it if were the same.

What did Trump do with those documents he was clearly trying to hide? Why did he take them home? He’s going to have to answer, he’s in deep shit!

Republicans are kind of quiet today…


----------



## Eric

I don't think we've seen anything yet, if they indict he's gonna lose his shit and call on his MAGATS to do their worst. I'll be sitting in my home watching it on CNN, not gonna go out and get into a civil war with a bunch of angry Trump babies, let the military deal with them.


----------



## Cmaier

All us lawyers are giggling at this response by Trump’s lawyers (one of whom may be a suspect)



			https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.58.0_1.pdf


----------



## Yoused

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> … be pretty easy to identify and disqualify Trump supporters from the potential jury pool. Just ask them if they respect the law and they’ll answer with …



_your courtroom flag don't have a gold fringe on_


----------



## fooferdoggie

Cmaier said:


> All us lawyers are giggling at this response by Trump’s lawyers (one of whom may be a suspect)
> 
> 
> 
> https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.58.0_1.pdf



looks iike trump wrote it. its so pathetic its hard to believe someone with a law degree wrote it. president trump no less?


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> Oh, so you admit you had them…. JFC this guy is a stupid liar. How can anyone take him seriously? “Nah, those stolen sensitive documents weren’t lying around, they were in a box, neatly stashed away! In a corner, a big, beautiful corner of my fabulous north wing, in a closet behind my bag of clubs.”
> 
> View attachment 17227




The bigwig lawyer Trump just hired must have been really thrilled to see that missive roll out of Truth Social, yeah?

Trump should get a patent on how to stand upright in a bottomless hole while digging it deeper and posting BS at the same time. 



Cmaier said:


> All us lawyers are giggling at this response by Trump’s lawyers (one of whom may be a suspect)




What I hope is that the judge is also giggling as she tweaks her draft of a decision that a Special Master is unnecessary, a day late, a dollar short, two slices of white bread and a tad of mustard short of a decent baloney sandwich,  and so just another attempt to obfuscate and obstruct the course of justice with all due process and exquisite care for special circumstance of the dude being an indictable plain citizen.

But then I'm often errant on side of optimism in matters related to TFG.


----------



## Citysnaps

And Vlad's pissed he'll never see those documents now.


----------



## lizkat

Citysnaps said:


> And Vlad's pissed he'll never see those documents now.




Hah! Yeah... but not as much as Trump is pissed over wondering if there really are pee tapes and what will he have left to trade for them now....


----------



## Eric

Citysnaps said:


> And Vlad's pissed he'll never see those documents now.



You sure he hasn't already?


----------



## Edd

This was touched on earlier, but I don‘t picture 12 American jurors agreeing to convicting Trump. It only takes one cult member to fuck it up.

I’d hope for either Trump agrees to a plea bargain that punishes him and keeps him out of the Oval *OR *he panics and flees the country.

I think I prefer option 2. He can be an exile in Saudi Arabia, Russia, I don't care. His brain is scrambled eggs, I doubt his memory alone can produce useful US secrets to whatever dictatorship he flees to.


----------



## Citysnaps

Eric said:


> You sure he hasn't already?



Excellent point!


----------



## Cmaier

Edd said:


> This was touched on earlier, but I don‘t picture 12 American jurors agreeing to convicting Trump. It only takes one cult member to fuck it up.
> 
> I’d hope for either Trump agrees to a plea bargain that punishes him and keeps him out of the Oval *OR *he panics and flees the country.
> 
> I think I prefer option 2. He can be an exile in Saudi Arabia, Russia, I don't care. His brain is scrambled eggs, I doubt his memory alone can produce useful US secrets to whatever dictatorship he flees to.



Ain’t no hard core maga’s getting past voir dire. I’ve seen a lot of juries, and the vast majority of the time they do the right thing, even if they wish they could rule the other way because of personal preferences.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> You sure he hasn't already?




He saw them and used them to kill a lot of our human assets a few years back.  Because Trump handed them over, intentionally and willingly, because of the evidence Putin has on Trump and the fact that Trump is an orange windbag without a soul.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Citysnaps said:


> And Vlad's pissed he'll never see those documents now.



what all trump has to do is email pics of them. well some pads smudge because thats past trumps skill level.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Think of how bad this looks already - who knows what evidence they have we don’t know of yet.

I expect to hear the name “Christina Bobb” a lot going forward, she is either lying on Trump’s behalf or was lied to herself by her client, but that will almost certainly be an issue in regards to that signed statement falsely asserting they had turned over everything requested. And it’s hard to imagine she didn’t know there were more. But if she didn’t, that further implicates her client in obstruction.

I suppose Trump could reasonably argue he has terrible counsel…


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> Think of how bad this looks already - who knows what evidence they have we don’t know of yet.
> 
> I expect to hear the name “Christina Bobb” a lot going forward, she is either lying on Trump’s behalf or was lied to herself by her client, but that will almost certainly be an issue in regards to that signed statement falsely asserting they had turned over everything requested. And it’s hard to imagine she didn’t know there were more. But if she didn’t, that further implicates her client in obstruction.
> 
> I suppose Trump could reasonably argue he has terrible counsel…



well I bet she breaks and runs soon if she has any wisdom or sense at all. not that it will help now but still.


----------



## Yoused

fooferdoggie said:


> … if she has any wisdom or sense at all …




Let me see, ah, here it is, "took on Individual-ONE as a client". Looks like *not*.


----------



## thekev

Cmaier said:


> All us lawyers are giggling at this response by Trump’s lawyers (one of whom may be a suspect)
> 
> 
> 
> https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.58.0_1.pdf




It just reads like one of Trump's rants. Is that what has you guys giggling or is it something else?


----------



## Cmaier

thekev said:


> It just reads like one of Trump's rants. Is that what has you guys giggling or is it something else?



We are past the rant stuff. It’s more the way it blatantly mischaracterizes the law, completely ignores the arguments actually made by the DOJ, and reads like something written by a law student.


----------



## DT

I'm seeing this mentioned by several sources this morning:



> Andrew Weissman, a veteran federal prosecutor on Mueller’s team says the DOJ’s midnight filing shows Trump is guilty of at least four crimes:
> 
> Espionage
> Contempt of subpoena
> Obstruction related charges
> Unlawful retention of government documents


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump is using his usual playbook - deny, then when it comes out that you can't deny things any longer, downplay the whole thing.

As Trump's lawyers and his cult scrambled to come up with defenses of him, the argument has now shifted to "They were just presidential documents which he had the right to possess. Why is the government acting so surprised?"

The legal argument by Trump's lawyers hold no weight, don't answer any questions and just use word salad to say "None of this is illegal, they should have just kept playing "Lets make a deal" with us and things would have been fine".

It's very egotistical to think Trump can skirt whatever law he wants because he served a term as president. I don't see the judge granting them a special master today, I don't see how any rational person could downplay the government's argument against it, and the Trump lawyers really did themselves no favors. It's a simple question if you're the government - "How long we were supposed to wait? Another month? Six months? A year?"

They made a great point that they found twice as many records in two days as Trump's team did after an "exhaustive search". Now, Trump's lawyers who were working with the Archives and DoJ will themselves be witnesses to a case they're defending. Just more evidence of how Trump sweeps everyone around him into his lawlessness.


----------



## thekev

Cmaier said:


> We are past the rant stuff. It’s more the way it blatantly mischaracterizes the law, completely ignores the arguments actually made by the DOJ, and reads like something written by a law student.




Okay yeah, not that far off from what I would have guessed. When I say "rant", I mean it reads like a long stream of nonsense.


----------



## Renzatic

thekev said:


> Okay yeah, not that far off from what I would have guessed. When I say "rant", I mean it reads like a long stream of nonsense.




Not so much a rant, but word salad then.


----------



## DT

thekev said:


> Okay yeah, not that far off from what I would have guessed. When I say "rant", I mean it reads like a long stream of nonsense.




If I may ...


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> They made a great point that they found twice as many records in two days as Trump's team did after an "exhaustive search". Now, Trump's lawyers who were working with the Archives and DoJ will themselves be witnesses to a case they're defending. Just more evidence of how Trump sweeps everyone around him into his lawlessness.



another lawyer who tossed their career for some unattainable fame they thought trump would bring. You cant feel sorry for them anymore trumps antics are well known its on you.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Top interview question you should be prepared to answer when applying to the Trump organization:  How do you feel about potential prison time?


----------



## mac_in_tosh

I am so tired of this never ending Trump saga. It's clear to any rational person that Trump is a pathological liar and narcissist, a sociopath who would cause chaos and even violence just to save himself. He colluded with Russia. He incited a coup attempt in order to stay in power and now he stole and lied about having some of the nation's top secret documents. On a more personal level, he's a morally bankrupt person who cheated on all three of his wives, made fun of a handicapped reporter, has a history of not paying people who do work for him and takes every opportunity to grift members of his base. He was even fined for misusing funds from his so-called charity.

But speaking of his base, it's hard to believe but if you go on Faux News' YouTube channel and peruse the comments, people are still loyal to him. They credit him with exposing the "swamp." They think he's a victim of the "deep state." They still refer to the "Russia hoax." They buy into the stolen election nonsense. And after many of them no doubt chanted "lock her up" over Hillary's mishandling of her emails, they blame the FBI not Trump for what's going on with the documents at Crime-A-Lago, a far more serious offense compared to what Hillary did (I believe there were three emails classified as Secret). It's clear that for some people there is nothing Trump can do, no level below which he can sink, that would change their minds about him.


----------



## Roller

Cmaier said:


> Ain’t no hard core maga’s getting past *voir dire*. I’ve seen a lot of juries, and the vast majority of the time they do the right thing, even if they wish they could rule the other way because of personal preferences.



Every time I see that term, I can't help thinking about _My Cousin Vinny_. The DOJ should hire Vinny Gambini. I can picture him questioning Trump: Are we to believe dat you didn't know what was in doze papers? Dat the laws of the U.S. of A. don't mean anything to you?


----------



## lizkat

mac_in_tosh said:


> It's clear that for some people there is nothing Trump can do, no level below which he can sink, that would change their minds about him.




Well that's because he's only a very tiny little bit guilty, eh?


​
I'm sick of the whole saga too.   Amused though to watch Murdoch trying to put daylight between his media outlets and Trump now, but without losing viewers and readers.

Murdoch's been running a few editorials in the NY Post that diss Trump while still trying to validate "the good" the guy has done.    Guess Murdoch doesn't realize that to get the base to let go and move on to some other yet to be designated conservative favorite,   his editorials have to spell out in all caps many more times over _*THE BAD PERSON THAT T*_*RUMP*_* IS.*_

The walls are starting to crumble, though.   Evangelical denominations are experiencing difficulty keeping their congregations on the Trump page... more pushback about how Trump's not exemplar of Christianity and "maybe" neither are some of the candidates he has endorsed.  

And now we have Michael Gerson, an evangelical Christian himself, with a long long piece in the Washington Post  (pay wall removed)  complete with historical background and careful references to scripture,  _*asking why Trump doesn't fill Christians with rage.*_

Oh, shit.  The quiet part out loud, finally.   Not from the pulpit but from a column in a secular paper.

Gerson reminds readers that some of the current high profile evangelical leadership seems to have strongly turned away from the actual messages of Christ.  He calls out as not-Christian their hypocritical, exclusionary and nationalistic behavior.  It's worth a read for anyone, but for those purporting to be evangelical Christians it's also a stunning confrontation of coreligionists, an inquiry as to whether hooking up with Donald Trump for assorted "conservative" political goals can possibly have been worth the cost to morality and Christian practice

In short Gerson is asking out loud the parts a lot of other evangelical Christians have gone to some lengths for years now to avoid considering.  You don't have to be a Christian to work for adequate recognition of the rights of the poor, people of color, LGBTQ+, women, children, the elderly, refugees...  but can you viciously stereotype or attack them physically or online, can you strive to find ways legally to exclude their "equality under rule of law" and still call yourself Christian?   Can you really be a white supremacist and be a practicing Christian?  

In what should at least be a shamed silence for an evangelical Christian who has lost memory of the gospels in scripture, Gerson's long piece asks those questions and more,  and also essentially says no f'g way. 

He reminds evangelicals who may have fallen into the comfort of feeling like they belong,  when they get with a Trump rally, that it's very hard to follow not merely the figure of Christ but the way of life he had advocated and that he strove to live as documented in the gospels.  But long before Gerson, even before Christ, the ancient poet Virgil had figured that out the difficulties of living a moral life,  having penned "The gates of hell are open night and day;  smooth the  descent and easy is the way."

Tick tock...  Gerson's piece is impressive but it's so far just another drip of the tap that hasn't quite opened to flood out the bulk of evangelicals still convinced that to vote for Trump (before, and last time and maybe another time) is what God wants for America.   Too many now may still figure God wanted low taxes for the rich and no abortions for any woman --and so it came to pass--  and so there must be something else yet that Trump can bring them.   However, Gerson's suggesting that the cost to the soul has already been way too high. 

No idea if that piece will swing any votes to the blue side in November, but it might empty out a few pews on the hard right side of evangelical churches,  wherever parishioners' political disagreements have been getting harder to paper over in the name of Christ.   And it's not likely to help Donald Trump in his hour of need for more donations, to make up for the fact that the RNC doesn't feel like springing to defend him from any charges that may result from DoJ's investigation,  or the one in the state of Georgia.


----------



## Eric

Wow

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1565420731843969025/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

lizkat said:


> Well that's because he's only a very tiny little bit guilty, eh?
> 
> View attachment 17251​
> I'm sick of the whole saga too.   Amused though to watch Murdoch trying to put daylight between his media outlets and Trump now, but without losing viewers and readers.
> 
> Murdoch's been running a few editorials in the NY Post that diss Trump while still trying to validate "the good" the guy has done.    Guess Murdoch doesn't realize that to get the base to let go and move on to some other yet to be designated conservative favorite,   his editorials have to spell out in all caps many more times over _*THE BAD PERSON THAT T*_*RUMP*_* IS.*_
> 
> The walls are starting to crumble, though.   Evangelical denominations are experiencing difficulty keeping their congregations on the Trump page... more pushback about how Trump's not exemplar of Christianity and "maybe" neither are some of the candidates he has endorsed.
> 
> And now we have Michael Gerson, an evangelical Christian himself, with a long long piece in the Washington Post  (pay wall removed)  complete with historical background and careful references to scripture,  _*asking why Trump doesn't fill Christians with rage.*_
> 
> Oh, shit.  The quiet part out loud, finally.   Not from the pulpit but from a column in a secular paper.
> 
> Gerson reminds readers that some of the current high profile evangelical leadership seems to have strongly turned away from the actual messages of Christ.  He calls out as not-Christian their hypocritical, exclusionary and nationalistic behavior.  It's worth a read for anyone, but for those purporting to be evangelical Christians it's also a stunning confrontation of coreligionists, an inquiry as to whether hooking up with Donald Trump for assorted "conservative" political goals can possibly have been worth the cost to morality and Christian practice
> 
> In short Gerson is asking out loud the parts a lot of other evangelical Christians have gone to some lengths for years now to avoid considering.  You don't have to be a Christian to work for adequate recognition of the rights of the poor, people of color, LGBTQ+, women, children, the elderly, refugees...  but can you viciously stereotype or attack them physically or online, can you strive to find ways legally to exclude their "equality under rule of law" and still call yourself Christian?   Can you really be a white supremacist and be a practicing Christian?
> 
> In what should at least be a shamed silence for an evangelical Christian who has lost memory of the gospels in scripture, Gerson's long piece asks those questions and more,  and also essentially says no f'g way.
> 
> He reminds evangelicals who may have fallen into the comfort of feeling like they belong,  when they get with a Trump rally, that it's very hard to follow not merely the figure of Christ but the way of life he had advocated and that he strove to live as documented in the gospels.  But long before Gerson, even before Christ, the ancient poet Virgil had figured that out the difficulties of living a moral life,  having penned "The gates of hell are open night and day;  smooth the  descent and easy is the way."
> 
> Tick tock...  Gerson's piece is impressive but it's so far just another drip of the tap that hasn't quite opened to flood out the bulk of evangelicals still convinced that to vote for Trump (before, and last time and maybe another time) is what God wants for America.   Too many now may still figure God wanted low taxes for the rich and no abortions for any woman --and so it came to pass--  and so there must be something else yet that Trump can bring them.   However, Gerson's suggesting that the cost to the soul has already been way too high.
> 
> No idea if that piece will swing any votes to the blue side in November, but it might empty out a few pews on the hard right side of evangelical churches,  wherever parishioners' political disagreements have been getting harder to paper over in the name of Christ.   And it's not likely to help Donald Trump in his hour of need for more donations, to make up for the fact that the RNC doesn't feel like springing to defend him from any charges that may result from DoJ's investigation,  or the one in the state of Georgia.




Often times people get involved with churches so they have a sense of community. If that is their main motivation then I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of them abandon the church to put all their attention on the Trump community. As has been mentioned, a lot of them have already morally done that. They should probably be excommunicated but that will never happen because a lot of these evangelical preachers are Trump level grifters themselves and they've been at it long before Trump went into office.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

lizkat said:


> The walls are starting to crumble, though.   Evangelical denominations are experiencing difficulty keeping their congregations on the Trump page... more pushback about how Trump's not exemplar of Christianity and "maybe" neither are some of the candidates he has endorsed.



What's taken them so long? Trump's personal life is the antithesis of what evangelicals purport to represent. A philanderer who cheated on all of his wives and paid off a porn star. Someone who never attends church. In one interview he couldn't name his favorite chapter in the bible, you know, that thing he held upside down for a photo op. His whole business history is one of cheating and not paying people who work for him and he was fined for misusing funds from his "charity." And just for fun I'll include Melania saying that she doesn't give a f* about the White House Christmas decorations. This is someone evangelicals rallied behind? Why?


----------



## fooferdoggie

mac_in_tosh said:


> What's taken them so long? Trump's personal life is the antithesis of what evangelicals purport to represent. A philanderer who cheated on all of his wives and paid off a porn star. Someone who never attends church. In one interview he couldn't name his favorite chapter in the bible, you know, that thing he held upside down for a photo op. His whole business history is one of cheating and not paying people who work for him and he was fined for misusing funds from his "charity." And just for fun I'll include Melania saying that she doesn't give a f* about the White House Christmas decorations. This is someone evangelicals rallied behind? Why?



it is a strange marrage. but I guess you only need to speak the right words and the gullible will follow you like a dog after a bone.


----------



## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Often times people get involved with churches so they have a sense of community. If that is their main motivation then I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of them abandon the church to put all their attention on the Trump community. As has been mentioned, a lot of them have already morally done that. They should probably be excommunicated but that will never happen because a lot of these evangelical preachers are Trump level grifters themselves and they've been at it long before Trump went into office.



I've attended church off and on over the years, a lot as a musician who played during services and as long as they weren't over the top right-wing nutjobs I have no problem with it. In fact, the last church I attended had a pretty open minded pastor. To me it's more about spirituality and community (as you say) and though I'm not really a believer I have no problem with those who are and support them, we should all let people be who they want to be.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Comedy writers couldn’t make this shit up  








						Trump Claims FBI Raided Mar-a-Lago Looking for Clinton Emails
					

During an interview with the Wendy Bell radio show, the former president also said government officials "were afraid that things were in there."




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump vs. the DoJ is kind of like a WWE Main Event. Trump has been lucky this far, but his own incompetency and ego with a gaggle of amateur lawyers willing to take risks for the fame of being around TFG is starting to become a liability. But it’s also their only tactic.

It also reminds me of the end of a mob movie, but instead of mobsters wrapping up business or self-destructing, it’s the FBI coming for the lawyers, the henchmen and indicting them.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> Trump vs. the DoJ is kind of like a WWE Main Event.




Not quite how DoJ sees it, probably.   More like a board game.

​


----------



## fooferdoggie




----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> I've attended church off and on over the years, a lot as a musician who played during services and as long as they weren't over the top right-wing nutjobs I have no problem with it. In fact, the last church I attended had a pretty open minded pastor. To me it's more about spirituality and community (as you say) and though I'm not really a believer I have no problem with those who are and support them, we should all let people be who they want to be.




I wasn’t attacking all churches or religious people. But I’ll pretty much blanket condemn any where Trumpism gets a heavy emphasis.   Atheists are probably closer to Christians than those people.


----------



## Pumbaa

Runs For Fun said:


> Comedy writers couldn’t make this shit up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump Claims FBI Raided Mar-a-Lago Looking for Clinton Emails
> 
> 
> During an interview with the Wendy Bell radio show, the former president also said government officials "were afraid that things were in there."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com




Maybe it sounds funny to reasonably sane people, but I fear his base will get the _real_ message. He implies that FBI thought the boxes contained damning evidence on Clinton’s e-mails and the “Russia hoax”, and raided his home to keep covering everything up, protecting Clinton, FBI, the Deep State, you name it. More violence coming right up.



> I think they thought, and who knows, boxes full of stuff...I think they thought...there was something to do with the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax. They were afraid that things were in there, part of their scam material because that's what they are, they're scammers.


----------



## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I wasn’t attacking all churches or religious people. But I’ll pretty much blanket condemn any where Trumpism gets a heavy emphasis.   Atheists are probably closer to Christians than those people.



Oh I didn't think you were, I was just chiming in and agreeing on the community aspect of what you were saying.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Pumbaa said:


> Maybe it sounds funny to reasonably sane people, but I fear his base will get the _real_ message. He implies that FBI thought the boxes contained damning evidence on Clinton’s e-mails and the “Russia hoax”, and raided his home to keep covering everything up, protecting Clinton, FBI, the Deep State, you name it. More violence coming right up.




As if his diarrhea mouth and power to declassify things with his mind wouldn’t have announced it to the world if he actually found anything.  But since his base is playing 1D Chutes and Ladders I wouldn’t expect them to come to that same realization.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Pumbaa said:


> Maybe it sounds funny to reasonably sane people, but I fear his base will get the _real_ message. He implies that FBI thought the boxes contained damning evidence on Clinton’s e-mails and the “Russia hoax”, and raided his home to keep covering everything up, protecting Clinton, FBI, the Deep State, you name it. More violence coming right up.




Yeah, he had the power as president to declassify things which would have proved him correct and shown Hillary should have been indicted- but instead of doing that, he had a "standing order" to declassify, which meant that if he took it home without telling anyone, it was declassified. And he held onto this in secret instead of releasing it because he was probably scared of the "deep state". So instead of releasing information to help him while he was allowed to do it, he waited until he wasn't allowed, stole the documents and hid them.

Makes perfect sense.

That's why we call it a cult - at some point, the beliefs aren't rooted in ANY semblance of reality, but blind loyalty.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> Oh I didn't think you were, I was just chiming in and agreeing on the community aspect of what you were saying.




I understand the desire to belong to a community, but if your community just makes you angry and feel like it's literally the end of the world perhaps consider joining a different community. Maybe this is the way some people deal with being top of the food chain, in lieu of any actual imminent danger just conjure it in your head. Speaking of food chain, how about taking that same anger and harnessing it against the industry that gave you diabetes instead of pointing guns at liberals.


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> Maybe it sounds funny to reasonably sane people, but I fear his base will get the _real_ message. He implies that FBI thought the boxes contained damning evidence on Clinton’s e-mails and the “Russia hoax”, and raided his home to keep covering everything up, protecting Clinton, FBI, the Deep State, you name it. More violence coming right up.



This is all about trying to fool the Dummies/Koolaid drinkers. The question becomes just how dumb or conspiratorial are the base of Republicans?

Trump is the leader of a hopefully shrinking movement of corrupt  anarchists, facists, anti-Democracy, anti-Constitutional forces, who use speaking in terms of opposites and projection to fool… the DUMMIES, aided by conspirators and schemers. _We’re Patriots in the process of steeling your Rights. _Wrap your head around: _When fair elections mean we lose, that is anti-democratic, and they must be stopped at all costs so Patriots like us, not like them can rule over you. _


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> This is all about trying to fool the Dummies/Koolaid drinkers. The question becomes just how dumb or conspiratorial are the base of Republicans?
> 
> Trump is the leader of a hopefully shrinking movement of corrupt  anarchists, facists, anti-Democracy, anti-Constitutional forces, who use speaking in terms of opposites and projection to fool… the DUMMIES, aided by conspirators and schemers. _We’re Patriots in the process of steeling your Rights. _Wrap your head around: _When fair elections mean we lose, that is anti-democratic, and they must be stopped at all costs so Patriots like us, not like them can rule over you. _




I also think there’s a lot of this going on…

Trump: [insert outlandish statement here]
Right-wing voter: “That doesn’t really make a lot of sense.”
Left-wing voter: “Did you hear what Trump just said? What an idiot!”
Right-wing voter “Trump makes a lot of sense” (Now that left-wing voter called him an idiot)


----------



## Huntn

lizkat said:


> Well that's because he's only a very tiny little bit guilty, eh?
> 
> View attachment 17251​
> I'm sick of the whole saga too.   Amused though to watch Murdoch trying to put daylight between his media outlets and Trump now, but without losing viewers and readers.
> 
> Murdoch's been running a few editorials in the NY Post that diss Trump while still trying to validate "the good" the guy has done.    Guess Murdoch doesn't realize that to get the base to let go and move on to some other yet to be designated conservative favorite,   his editorials have to spell out in all caps many more times over _*THE BAD PERSON THAT T*_*RUMP*_* IS.*_
> 
> The walls are starting to crumble, though.   Evangelical denominations are experiencing difficulty keeping their congregations on the Trump page... more pushback about how Trump's not exemplar of Christianity and "maybe" neither are some of the candidates he has endorsed.
> 
> And now we have Michael Gerson, an evangelical Christian himself, with a long long piece in the Washington Post  (pay wall removed)  complete with historical background and careful references to scripture,  _*asking why Trump doesn't fill Christians with rage.*_
> 
> Oh, shit.  The quiet part out loud, finally.   Not from the pulpit but from a column in a secular paper.
> 
> Gerson reminds readers that some of the current high profile evangelical leadership seems to have strongly turned away from the actual messages of Christ.  He calls out as not-Christian their hypocritical, exclusionary and nationalistic behavior.  It's worth a read for anyone, but for those purporting to be evangelical Christians it's also a stunning confrontation of coreligionists, an inquiry as to whether hooking up with Donald Trump for assorted "conservative" political goals can possibly have been worth the cost to morality and Christian practice
> 
> In short Gerson is asking out loud the parts a lot of other evangelical Christians have gone to some lengths for years now to avoid considering.  You don't have to be a Christian to work for adequate recognition of the rights of the poor, people of color, LGBTQ+, women, children, the elderly, refugees...  but can you viciously stereotype or attack them physically or online, can you strive to find ways legally to exclude their "equality under rule of law" and still call yourself Christian?   Can you really be a white supremacist and be a practicing Christian?
> 
> In what should at least be a shamed silence for an evangelical Christian who has lost memory of the gospels in scripture, Gerson's long piece asks those questions and more,  and also essentially says no f'g way.
> 
> He reminds evangelicals who may have fallen into the comfort of feeling like they belong,  when they get with a Trump rally, that it's very hard to follow not merely the figure of Christ but the way of life he had advocated and that he strove to live as documented in the gospels.  But long before Gerson, even before Christ, the ancient poet Virgil had figured that out the difficulties of living a moral life,  having penned "The gates of hell are open night and day;  smooth the  descent and easy is the way."
> 
> Tick tock...  Gerson's piece is impressive but it's so far just another drip of the tap that hasn't quite opened to flood out the bulk of evangelicals still convinced that to vote for Trump (before, and last time and maybe another time) is what God wants for America.   Too many now may still figure God wanted low taxes for the rich and no abortions for any woman --and so it came to pass--  and so there must be something else yet that Trump can bring them.   However, Gerson's suggesting that the cost to the soul has already been way too high.
> 
> No idea if that piece will swing any votes to the blue side in November, but it might empty out a few pews on the hard right side of evangelical churches,  wherever parishioners' political disagreements have been getting harder to paper over in the name of Christ.   And it's not likely to help Donald Trump in his hour of need for more donations, to make up for the fact that the RNC doesn't feel like springing to defend him from any charges that may result from DoJ's investigation,  or the one in the state of Georgia.



This has been a case of some large number (millions*) of human beings abandoning their moral standards for perceived self benefit, not just Christians but more so, people who would swear they are American Patriots, supportive of our System of Democracy and Justice, our profession in belief of human rights, equal rights, equal opportunity, while not really insisting, turning a blind eye to all manner of corruption and racially based injustice, when:  _it benefits me. _This is a common theme in my posts a common characteristic in many/most humans, to much ME not enough WE.

*It took millions of citizens with the direct help of the GOP to elect the biggest corrupting POS, threat to the integrity of our Federal Govt in our lifetime, arguably in the entire history of this country. Why? Your choice: Dummies or Schemers intent on destroying American Democracy for self benefit.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump is up to his usual projection after Biden's speech - somehow accusing him of wanting to weaponize the military. Which is exactly what he wanted to do to protestors and to seize voting machines.

Meanwhile, it continues to look bad for him.









						Four dozen empty folders marked 'CLASSIFIED' found in Trump Mar-a-Lago raid, DOJ reveals
					

The Department of Justice is investigating possible crimes related to the removal of  government documents from the White House when Trump left office.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## shadow puppet

Beclowning is my new favorite word.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1564997805835444225/


----------



## shadow puppet

If you'd like to see a detailed inventory, follow the link.  As a general note, “Return to Staff Secretary/Military Aide” isn’t just a suggestion.



			https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.39.1_1.pdf


----------



## Runs For Fun

shadow puppet said:


> If you'd like to see a detailed inventory, follow the link.  As a general note, “Return to Staff Secretary/Military Aide” isn’t just a suggestion.
> 
> 
> 
> https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.39.1_1.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 17271



Empty folders huh? Wonder where those classified documents went....


----------



## GermanSuplex

Look at what was found in his office alone... several classified and secret documents.

In addition to the documents with markings, they found over 10,000 other government documents at his home...









						Over 10,000 govt docs without classified markings were seized from Mar-a-Lago, DOJ says
					

Besides documents marked top secret and classified, newly unsealed information shows Trump also had a mountain of other documents and photos.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## fooferdoggie

Runs For Fun said:


> Empty folders huh? Wonder where those classified documents went....



Russia or the toilet is my guess.


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> Look at what was found in his office alone...
> 
> In addition to the documents with markings, they found over 10,000 other government documents...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over 10,000 govt docs without classified markings were seized from Mar-a-Lago, DOJ says
> 
> 
> Besides documents marked top secret and classified, newly unsealed information shows Trump also had a mountain of other documents and photos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com



man he needed a moving company just to steal government document.


----------



## GermanSuplex

fooferdoggie said:


> man he needed a moving company just to steal government document.




In an interview he did in the last couple of days, that was his defense... he mentioned how there were moving trucks and moving people standing in the open at the White House, so he didn't do anything in hiding.

Just one of many defenses he's used.


----------



## Eric

GermanSuplex said:


> Trump is up to his usual projection after Biden's speech - somehow accusing him of wanting to weaponize the military. Which is exactly what he wanted to do to protestors and to seize voting machines.
> 
> Meanwhile, it continues to look bad for him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Four dozen empty folders marked 'CLASSIFIED' found in Trump Mar-a-Lago raid, DOJ reveals
> 
> 
> The Department of Justice is investigating possible crimes related to the removal of  government documents from the White House when Trump left office.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com



Literally everything they release is damning for Trump and only further justifies the actions of the DOJ in the court of public opinion, even yesterday when asked McConnell gave a "no comment" on it.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I feel like we're one Truth away from Trump saying how inept the FBI is based on what they didn't find and where he's hiding it.  Keep talking, buddy.  You're doing great!


----------



## GermanSuplex

How long until Trump and Rudy, or Trump and Mark Meadows, or Trump and Pence, or Trump and DeSantis, or Trump and Graham, or Trump and McCarthy, or Trump and Cruz have a public pissing match?

It only takes one step out of line for them to incur the wrath of the dummy they’ve built up to that point.

Trump went from conman grifter/comic relief actor to a full out authoritarian figure in just a few years. Few people around Trump are probably willing to actually go to prison for him, and the finger pointing will start.


----------



## Macky-Mac

GermanSuplex said:


> How long until Trump and Rudy, or Trump and Mark Meadows, or Trump and Pence, or Trump and DeSantis, or Trump and Graham, or Trump and McCarthy, or Trump and Cruz have a public pissing match?




That's an interesting question. For some of them, I suppose it depends on how they view their own prospects for jail time. For others it might happen when they decide that Trump has become sufficiently vulnerable politically.

Some of them will turn on Trump when it comes to self interest.


----------



## Edd

GermanSuplex said:


> How long until Trump and Rudy, or Trump and Mark Meadows, or Trump and Pence, or Trump and DeSantis, or Trump and Graham, or Trump and McCarthy, or Trump and Cruz have a public pissing match?



I want it but not sure it’s ever happening.


----------



## DT

shadow puppet said:


> Beclowning is my new favorite word.




I was only familiar with becloning.

As in ...

"I becloning myself because I need a second me to handle several chores ."


----------



## Renzatic

DT said:


> I was only familiar with becloning.
> 
> As in ...
> 
> "I becloning myself because I need a second me to handle several chores ."




You don't want to do that. I'm speaking from experience here.


----------



## Yoused

Renzatic said:


> You don't want to do that. I'm speaking from experience here.



I second that. The fights I got into with me were spectacular.


----------



## Renzatic

Yoused said:


> I second that. The fights I got into with me were spectacular.




Guy was a total asshole. All he'd do was bitch about doing the trimming, and eat all my favorite snacks!


----------



## GermanSuplex

I wonder if they’ve already checked the documents and folders for fingerprints…


----------



## Renzatic

GermanSuplex said:


> I wonder if they’ve already checked the documents and folders for fingerprints…




Probably didn’t need to, what with all the KFC grease on everything.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> I wonder if they’ve already checked the documents and folders for fingerprints…




I've wondered about a lot of things like whether sensitive info was ever withheld from Trump for fear he'd misuse it.

Or if any of our allies' intel agencies ever said to some of ours,  "you can't share or note this officially in any way"....  out of fear of Trump's potential misuse. 

i worry about extent of damage to the whole communications processes of our intel agencies and allied counterparts because of concerns about Trump,  from even before day one of his presidency.   Now all this after the fact...  wow.

Regardless of whether Trump has been just a lazy slob or the equivalent of a top-tier "mole" it's all so dismaying,


----------



## GermanSuplex

Hmmm…
Trump has an empty classified folder on display at his cheesy bar, which is a shrine to himself.


----------



## Alli

We know where the missing documents are:









						Federal agents search homes linked to Russian oligarch who recently had yacht seized, sources tell CNN
					

Federal agents have searched a high-rise apartment in New York City's affluent Park Avenue and a New York Southhampton estate Thursday connected to a Russian oligarch who recently had his yacht seized, sources told CNN.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Citysnaps

Alli said:


> We know where the missing documents are:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Federal agents search homes linked to Russian oligarch who recently had yacht seized, sources tell CNN
> 
> 
> Federal agents have searched a high-rise apartment in New York City's affluent Park Avenue and a New York Southhampton estate Thursday connected to a Russian oligarch who recently had his yacht seized, sources told CNN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com




_"Another source familiar with the matter said* multiple raids happened simultaneously in New York City, Southampton, and Florida*, targeting multiple designees from the US Department of Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)."_

Garland making his move - hope it's fruitful!


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Just to show how gullible Trump's base is, and how enabling are his supporters in the media, there was a clip of him talking to some right wing extremist show where he actually said that if the DOJ had only asked him for the documents he would have turned them over but instead they raided his home. Now the host must have known what an absolute lie that was, that the DOJ spent months asking for the documents before having to issue a subpoena for them and that even then he withheld many documents, necessitating the search warrant.


----------



## GermanSuplex

mac_in_tosh said:


> Just to show how gullible Trump's base is, and how enabling are his supporters in the media, there was a clip of him talking to some right wing extremist show where he actually said that if the DOJ had only asked him for the documents he would have turned them over but instead they raided his home. Now the host must have known what an absolute lie that was, that the DOJ spent months asking for the documents before having to issue a subpoena for them and that even then he withheld many documents, necessitating the search warrant.




I’m sure the DoJ is thrilled with each interview he or his lawyers give to the media. Especially when he incriminates himself on a near-daily basis.


----------



## ronntaylor

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1566233553406509056/


----------



## Huntn

Runs For Fun said:


> Empty folders huh? Wonder where those classified documents went....



You are not the only one. There has been speculation about the compromise of US foreign agents and their deaths. I‘d say speculation at this point but if that has any basis in fact, the man needs to tried for serious treason.


----------



## fischersd

Huntn said:


> You are not the only one. There has been speculation about the compromise of US foreign agents and their deaths. I‘d say speculation at this point but if that has any basis in fact, the man needs to tried for serious treason.



If he actually leaked information which resulted in the deaths of intelligence agents, then we could actually see the first time that a former President was put to death for treason (should happen....but will it?) *sigh*

Me, I think there should be a civil war with Trump's supporters - it'll clean up the US gene pool considerably.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I expect the rhetoric to ramp up considerably in the coming months as Trump is hit with legal issues, a conservative pool that probably doesn’t want him to run, people will start announcing runs shortly and Trump won’t handle any primary opponent well.

If republicans somehow lose the house, they’ll double-down on their stolen election BS. And if they win, they’ll get the circus going quickly.

Trump’s cult rally in Wilkes-Barre was a reminder that the guy is fucking OUT THERE. He does not care about anything but power. It’s so bizarre watching him standing there, lying and talking like an idiot, that people cheer him. It’s only going to get worse as he feels the squeeze.


----------



## lizkat

fischersd said:


> If he actually leaked information which resulted in the deaths of intelligence agents, then we could actually see the first time that a former President was put to death for treason (should happen....but will it?) *sigh*
> 
> Me, I think there should be a civil war with Trump's supporters - it'll clean up the US gene pool considerably.




Trump has certainly proven himself (so far) more of a Teflon Don than anyone might reasonably have expected.  But he's playing in a civilian ballpark now; not the venue of a sitting president with political protocols and rulebooks amended by the likes of Mitch McConnell. 

On the matter of resisting the return of sensitive documents,  that's not at all like some dude ignoring a bunch of parking tickets.   Trump seems to have tried seriously to obstruct the government's effort to retrieve for secure storage some highly restricted materials,  and he may already have dragged a few hapless attorneys into legal trouble themselves.

What more does it take to bring a rogue ex president to heel?  He appears to have incited electoral fraud and overturn of the government.  He appears to have stolen documents that endanger our national security.  He has definitely mocked every guardrail that protocol, norms, rules and actual law together ever framed and constrained powers of a president, or an ex-president either.

And still out on the hustings this afternoon there are politicians campaigning on the assumed appeal of an outlaw-caricature of Trump (an image elevated by Trump himself!) to their own potential voters.

It's not just Trump who is dangerous.  It's also the people who think he's cool,  and think he's persecuted, and think he should run again for public office.  But there's really no there there for a lot of his rally-base sort of followers, it's all props and smoke and mirrors and often enjoyed as entertainment. 

When one breaks out the stats, it doesn't seem like there are enough of that hard core to be a threat to America.  But they're not all faceless people in crowds;  a significant number of politically aware fans of Trump's autocratic take on leadership are already in positions of supposed public trust, in Congress, state legislatures, school boards, county election offices. 

Who knows how hard or easy it will be to un-sell the false images of Donald Trump to those followers.  And behind Trump are a bench of wannabe successors.  

Best we can hope for right now is that he keeps pulling walls down around himself to reveal his unfitness.   So far the DoJ seems to have been patiently allowing an apparent criminal to further incriminate himself.  It's alarming though to reallize at each turn in the road, we still hadn't seen the extent of his unworthiness to have been where he once sat atop our government.

If there was ever a book of object lessons for pols and voters alike to quit dismissing character and morality as key in electing leaders,  Trump certainly warrants a chapter of his own.


----------



## Huntn

GermanSuplex said:


> I expect the rhetoric to ramp up considerably in the coming months as Trump is hit with legal issues, a conservative pool that probably doesn’t want him to run, people will start announcing runs shortly and Trump won’t handle any primary opponent well.
> 
> If republicans somehow lose the house, they’ll double-down on their stolen election BS. And if they win, they’ll get the circus going quickly.
> 
> Trump’s cult rally in Wilkes-Barre was a reminder that the guy is fucking OUT THERE. He does not care about anything but power. It’s so bizarre watching him standing there, lying and talking like an idiot, that people cheer him. It’s only going to get worse as he feels the squeeze.



And the dimwits cheer…


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Huntn said:


> And the dimwits cheer…



They like him because he talks like they do and he makes outlandish, ignorant and unfounded statements like they do. The irony is that elitist Trump couldn't care less about these people and probably even has contempt for them. They're just another source for grift.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump has been granted a special master, but I don’t think it will help him. It’s an odd thing to grant when he had no argument, but it is what it is. DoJ has the right to appeal, we’ll see what they do. I don’t think it matters much at this point, it’s just a delay tactic.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

I wouldn't be surprised if corruption was involved given that the judge was appointed by Trump and appears to have asserted jurisdiction where she may not have it. But here he goes again getting his lawyers (I use the term loosely) to prevent him from paying the price for his illegality. I'm sure that's why so many contractors gave up trying to get paid for work they did. And what's the status of the cases of all those women who claimed he assaulted them?

If the documents weren't actually declassified, as appears to be the case since procedure was not followed, then Trump should be charged with stealing top secret documents and storing them in an insecure location. If the documents were declassified by a snap of his finger (not likely), then he exercised gross negligence because he didn't carefully examine each of the hundreds of document to assess the impact of declassification on national security. I don't know what crimes that might involve, but whether the documents were classified or not, he was in illegal possession of them, didn't comply with a subpoena to produce them and lied to the FBI about having them.

What is the DOJ waiting for? The more this creep is allowed to spew his lies and incitement, the greater the danger to the nation. Even Bill Barr has condemned what Trump did and said his actions were unprecedented.


----------



## Renzatic

GermanSuplex said:


> Trump has been granted a special master, but I don’t think it will help him. It’s an odd thing to grant when he had no argument, but it is what it is. DoJ has the right to appeal, we’ll see what they do. I don’t think it matters much at this point, it’s just a delay tactic.




Yeah, but how long can he use this as an excuse to delay?



mac_in_tosh said:


> If the documents weren't actually declassified, as appears to be the case since procedure was not followed, then Trump should be charged with stealing top secret documents and storing them in an insecure location.




The issue of classification is entirely moot by this point. Whether it was or not doesn't change the fact that Trump allegedly had information critical to our national defense stored in unsecured locations where anyone could have seen it, and outright refused to do anything about it.


----------



## Runs For Fun

WTF?








						Judge orders halt to DOJ review of documents seized from Trump
					

Cannon’s order included permitting a so-called special master to review the seized materials for potential attorney-client and executive privilege.




					www.politico.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

Runs For Fun said:


> WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Judge orders halt to DOJ review of documents seized from Trump
> 
> 
> Cannon’s order included permitting a so-called special master to review the seized materials for potential attorney-client and executive privilege.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com




He has no claim of executive privilege. Really, I think this lies in the hands of the DoJ. It may be quicker if they can agree to a timetable to have the master appointed and to go through the documents in a timeframe.

Trump will just attack the judge and special master the moment things don’t play to his liking. The delays are never ending and annoying, but I don’t think they’ll ultimately help him. It’ll also weaken any of his arguments moving forward.


----------



## thekev

GermanSuplex said:


> He has no claim of executive privilege. Really, I think this lies in the hands of the DoJ. It may be quicker if they can agree to a timetable to have the master appointed and to go through the documents in a timeframe.




He might have leverage against the judge or something. It was one of his appointees (again). I would like to see judges that try to treat former presidents as having such privilege beyond their last day in office as ex-judges. I don't believe that her suggestion is an argument made in good faith.


----------



## Eric

Sounds like this is a huge win for Trump and lawyers are saying it could possibly derail the entire investigation. It's really hard to believe that they can find a single judge that can undo everything like this with no recourse for the DOJ.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> Sounds like this is a huge win for Trump and lawyers are saying it could possibly derail the entire investigation. It's really hard to believe that they can find a single judge that can undo everything like this with no recourse for the DOJ.




DoJ can appeal. I don’t think there’s much precedence for appointing a special master in a case such as this. From what most attorneys are saying, it’s more common in raids of lawyer offices where target info may be stored alongside that of tons of other metrical that is privileged, like those of clients.

I don’t think this will derail the investigation for long. I don’t think this is going to extend any possible indictment beyond an original timeframe more than a month of two, if at all.

Then again, I said I didn’t think Trump would get a special master, so I’m not putting any money on my own words.


----------



## Renzatic

Eric said:


> Sounds like this is a huge win for Trump and lawyers are saying it could possibly derail the entire investigation. It's really hard to believe that they can find a single judge that can undo everything like this with no recourse for the DOJ.




It all depends on whether this judge is there to insure a fair case for both the prosecution and defendant, or is a hardcore MAGA idiot out to give special favors for Trump. 

If she's the former, then this is nothing more than a detour to the inevitable conclusion, and could even end up strengthening the DOJ's case against him, given that all evidence will have been double checked to make sure it was all above board.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Sounds like this is a huge win for Trump and lawyers are saying it could possibly derail the entire investigation. It's really hard to believe that they can find a single judge that can undo everything like this with no recourse for the DOJ.



Yeah, it’s not going to derail the investigation, no matter what happens.


----------



## Yoused

GermanSuplex said:


> I don’t think there’s much precedence for appointing a special master in a case such as this.



Quite frankly, _there is no precedent_ for a case like this. At all. Not even some late-night plumbing compares to the proactive anti-Americanism of Individual-ONE.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Even Bill Barr said there's no precedent for this investigation only because no other president did anything like this.


----------



## rdrr

So this goes to the Federal Appeals court, then to the Supreme Court?   God, how can this be justified, can we just declare democracy dead now?


----------



## Runs For Fun

rdrr said:


> So this goes to the Federal Appeals court, then to the Supreme Court?   God, how can this be justified, can we just declare democracy dead now?



Yep, and guess who's lap it will end up in SCOTUS. Clarence Thomas This is so fucked.


----------



## lizkat

Time for John Roberts to try behind the scenes and in advance to muster up one more justice besides himself to vote along with the "liberal" justices in favor of interpreting the US Constitution as one favoring rule of law applying to everyone, even a ex president who somehow fancies himself immune.  

Barr is right that the founders probably didn't figure that an ex-president (or one about to depart the office) would act as Trump has done.   We could have used a little more help from Barr when he was AG and able to say that a sitting president should not act as Trump had done either.  His advance slant on Mueller's report was unconscionable.


----------



## thekev

Runs For Fun said:


> Yep, and guess who's lap it will end up in SCOTUS. Clarence Thomas This is so fucked.




That dirtbag really needs an impeachment of his own, given his lack of regard for clear conflicts of interest.


----------



## Runs For Fun

thekev said:


> That dirtbag really needs an impeachment of his own, given his lack of regard for clear conflicts of interest.



His wife is a Qultist FFS.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Runs For Fun said:


> Yep, and guess who's lap it will end up in SCOTUS. Clarence Thomas This is so fucked.












						Clarence Thomas Annoyed After Getting Another Text From Wife Nagging Him To Overthrow Government Before He Gets Home From Work
					

WASHINGTON—Muttering in frustration that he was already up to his neck in work, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas reportedly grew annoyed Tuesday after getting another text from his wife nagging him to overthrow the government before he got home. “For Christ’s sake, Ginni, you know how busy...




					www.theonion.com
				




“She doesn’t even have a real job. There’s nothing stopping her from just popping out at lunchtime when there’s less traffic and toppling the U.S. government herself. But now I look like the bad guy because I’m not dropping everything and attending to her need to send Joe Biden to jail. Ugh, she’s such a fucking bitch.”


----------



## GermanSuplex

The judge's decision in this case isn't going over well. Of course it is, in right-wing circles, that's perfectly acceptable. But the ruling doesn't really explain why she thinks he was entitled to a special master - just kind of says "its an important case and he's the president, so lets grant him some leeway."

I don't like doing the whole "Trump appointed this judge, Obama appointed that judge" thing, because that's Trump's playbook. Only judges who are republicans are qualified to handle his cases. And they are only acceptable if he gets the desired outcome.

There may have been a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" view from the judge, and maybe she figured an independent reviewer of the documents would help the case of both parties. But is that really her job? Now, she's set a precedent... if this decision stands.

I don't think this issue will help or harm the investigation, its just a speed bump, but I am curious to see how the DoJ responds. If they fight it, Trump and his ilk will jump on the chance to accuse them of trying to avoid oversight. A firm decision by the judge to deny him a special master and let the case move forward would have been ideal, but that outcome has already sailed now with this decision, even if a special master is not ultimately appointed.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> The judge's decision in this case isn't going over well. Of course it is, in right-wing circles




Yeah this judge was appointed after Trump's 2020 defeat but before Dems had the Senate gavel in Jan 2021.   
Like some of Trump's other appointees, she was rated "Not Qualified" by the American Bar Association, about which fact the GOP currently and for awhile now does not give a flying fig.

Info on background is from a Washington Post piece, paywall removed    https://wapo.st/3RFA3E7


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> Yeah this judge was appointed after Trump's 2020 defeat but before Dems had the Senate gavel in Jan 2021.
> Like some of Trump's other appointees, she was rated "Not Qualified" by the American Bar Association, about which fact the GOP currently and for awhile now does not give a flying fig.
> 
> Info on background is from a Washington Post piece, paywall removed    https://wapo.st/3RFA3E7



she is one of those not qualified it figures. but hell anyone trump deals with or approves of is seldom qualified.


----------



## GermanSuplex

It’s an issue that’s come up on the right a few times.. claim something with no basis in fact (like the election is rigged), do something to “fix” the problem (get cronies in office, enact voter suppression), then call the other side hypocrites when they begin charging what you originally allege.

Trump has railed on judges for their political beliefs, who appointed them and even their race. Now he and the GOP have installed several unqualified judges, so it will seem hypocritical if the left alleges the same things Trump has been alleging.

It’s all part of the obstruct, obfuscate, smear, and throw shit at the wall to see what sticks.

I hope this is the judge’s first and last favor to repay her “boss”. To play devil’s advocate, it is a very “unprecedented” and public case. Of course, the right thinks it’s unprecedented overreach and the left an unprecedented lawless president. But either way, there’s intense public interest and she may have been trying to thread the needle for both sides.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Republicans in congress would have been wise to wait before rushing to Trump’s defense. I think the appointment of a special master may be all the good news Trump gets out of this.









						Material on foreign nation’s nuclear capabilities seized at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago — The Washington Post
					

Some of the documents seized on Aug. 8 detail top-secret U.S. operations so closely guarded that many senior national security officials are kept in the dark about them.




					apple.news


----------



## Roller

GermanSuplex said:


> Republicans in congress would have been wide to wait before rushing to Trump’s defense. I think the appointment of a special master may be all the good news Trump gets out of this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Material on foreign nation’s nuclear capabilities seized at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago — The Washington Post
> 
> 
> Some of the documents seized on Aug. 8 detail top-secret U.S. operations so closely guarded that many senior national security officials are kept in the dark about them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



Every time I think Trump has crossed a line that his most loyal Republican sycophants won’t abide, I’ve been disappointed. (Edited to correct autocorrect.)


----------



## Citysnaps

Roller said:


> Every time I think Trump has crossed a line that his most loyal Reputation sycophants won’t abide, I’ve been disappointed.




I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop that the FBI has been surveilling and keeping tabs on hostile-to-the-US foreign nationals visiting MAL over the last year.  

Pure conjecture, but if true, wouldn't be shocked at all.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Roller said:


> Every time I think Trump has crossed a line that his most loyal Reputation sycophants won’t abide, I’ve been disappointed.



While it may not look likely, some GOP leaders may at some point bail on Trump. But the MAGA crowd apparently will abide whatever Dear Leader does. Jan. 6? The Democrats and FBI staged it. Documents at Mar-A-Lardo? The FBI planted them. Russian collusion? A hoax. The 2020 election? It was stolen. They dismiss Trump's long history of cheating and lying and his lack of morality and believe whatever he says.


----------



## GermanSuplex

How did he get this stuff home? It’s not like an assitant can walk into a room and grab this stuff and get It to Trump. What is the chain of command for these documents and how did he get them from wherever they are usually kept secure all the way to his gilded country club?

I know the rubes like to pretend that Trump can just snap a finger and declassify stuff - and maybe that’s true under certain circumstances (like there being no precedent on what to do when a sitting president is a careless moron who gives sensitive info to Russians or toilet-tweets sensitive images). But that wouldn’t answer how he got troves of material that is supposed to have layers of protection. I’m assuming it’s not a filing cabinet back by the water cooler people can just go and snatch stuff out of.

I believe the DoJ has more on Trump than just knowing he had the documents. And that is absolutely bad enough. To get a little conspiratorial here, I’d still like to know what his relationship is with Russia. Neither he nor his children have ever condemned Putin, mentioned the atrocities Russia commits on its own people. I know Trump envies authoritarian figures, but that doesn’t explain his refusal to go against self-interest and condemn Russia/Putin. There’s clearly something there beyond it being mere bedroom eyes for his idol.


----------



## Yoused

Citysnaps said:


> I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop that the FBI has been surveilling and keeping tabs on hostile-to-the-US foreign nationals visiting MAL over the last year.




Fail to forget that there is a secret tunnel into that place from across the street. I would imagine the FBI was aware of it, but then again, maybe not.


----------



## thekev

Runs For Fun said:


> His wife is a Qultist FFS.




I am actually okay with the idea of sane people having wacky spouses. He could have recused himself in any matters in which this would present a conflict of interest. He clearly doesn't care though.


----------



## Yoused

We knew who/what he was 30 years ago. That was why he faced strong opposition. Would that it had been strong enough.


----------



## Yoused

thekev said:


> I am actually okay with the idea of sane people having wacky spouses.




So … you are saying … that … which one is …


----------



## fischersd

On the plus side, if that ice shelf breaks off in Antarctica, maybe President Pumpkinhead will refuse to leave and eventually die in a few feet of water?


----------



## Huntn

GermanSuplex said:


> How did he get this stuff home? It’s not like an assitant can walk into a room and grab this stuff and get It to Trump. What is the chain of command for these documents and how did he get them from wherever they are usually kept secure all the way to his gilded country club?
> 
> I know the rubes like to pretend that Trump can just snap a finger and declassify stuff - and maybe that’s true under certain circumstances (like there being no precedent on what to do when a sitting president is a careless moron who gives sensitive info to Russians or toilet-tweets sensitive images). But that wouldn’t answer how he got troves of material that is supposed to have layers of protection. I’m assuming it’s not a filing cabinet back by the water cooler people can just go and snatch stuff out of.
> 
> I believe the DoJ has more on Trump than just knowing he had the documents. And that is absolutely bad enough. To get a little conspiratorial here, I’d still like to know what his relationship is with Russia. Neither he nor his children have ever condemned Putin, mentioned the atrocities Russia commits on its own people. I know Trump envies authoritarian figures, but that doesn’t explain his refusal to go against self-interest and condemn Russia/Putin. There’s clearly something there beyond it being mere bedroom eyes for his idol.



For mere mortals, there are protocols, custodians, chain of custody, numbered copies, checked out then back in, kept in a secure location called a scif.









						Sensitive Compartmented Information  Facility Use (SCIF) Policy
					






					www.gsa.gov
				




That said I have no idea what protocols are in place for POTUS or in the White House in a normal Administration vs the POS Trump Administration.  The ability to grab boxes of classified documents and have then packed by the movers or secreted away, there is a breakdown of such standards and complicity to break the law involved. It’s no surprise that the Trump Administration flaunted and made a joke of such standards. Based on previous espionage cases, mishandling classified documents , this bastard belongs in jail or at a minimum be disqualified from running for POTUS again.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> It may be quicker if they can agree to a timetable to have the master appointed and to go through the documents in a timeframe.


----------



## rdrr

Yoused said:


> Fail to forget that there is a secret tunnel into that place from across the street. I would imagine the FBI was aware of it, but then again, maybe not.



Hang on is this true, or did I miss the sarcasm?


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Has Bill Barr been taken over by aliens? From CBSnews.com:

_Washington – _Former Attorney General William Barr denounced a Florida federal judge's order authorizing the appointment of a special master to review the documents seized at former President Donald Trump's Florida residence, calling the ruling "wrong" and "deeply flawed."


----------



## Citysnaps

mac_in_tosh said:


> Has Bill Barr been taken over by aliens? From CBSnews.com:
> 
> _Washington – _Former Attorney General William Barr denounced a Florida federal judge's order authorizing the appointment of a special master to review the documents seized at former President Donald Trump's Florida residence, calling the ruling "wrong" and "deeply flawed."




An attempt at image rehabilitation.  Not working for me. 

The minuscule respect I had for him went into negative numbers after he obfuscated the Mueller report three years ago.


----------



## GermanSuplex

mac_in_tosh said:


> Has Bill Barr been taken over by aliens? From CBSnews.com:
> 
> _Washington – _Former Attorney General William Barr denounced a Florida federal judge's order authorizing the appointment of a special master to review the documents seized at former President Donald Trump's Florida residence, calling the ruling "wrong" and "deeply flawed."




Barr has been outspoken thus far. Like the poster above said, probably image rehab. And I'm sure he's not a personal fan of Trump, at least not any longer.

The only thing that I can think of when he says these things now, is "What on earth was going through your mind during your tenure under Trump? Did you not see this coming? Why were your actions then any better than the people you're criticizing now?"

But it goes back to what we've said all along; you have stupid people who support Trump - your stereotypical goof troop of people like Gaetz, MTG, Boebert... but then you have the Bill Barrs, the John Kellys, Lindsey Grahams, etc... the ones who know they are playing the role of a Trump supporter to enrich themselves while fully realizing how detrimental he is to their party and the country as a whole.


----------



## Yoused

rdrr said:


> Hang on is this true, or did I miss the sarcasm?











						Giuliani used a tunnel under Mar-a-Lago to go back and forth from Trump's home, where he stayed while he was depressed and drinking heavily, book says
					

Rudy Giuliani's ex-wife in a forthcoming book said he and Trump are "protective" of each other: "We moved into Mar-a-Lago and Donald kept our secret."




					ca.style.yahoo.com


----------



## Edd

Yoused said:


> Giuliani used a tunnel under Mar-a-Lago to go back and forth from Trump's home, where he stayed while he was depressed and drinking heavily, book says
> 
> 
> Rudy Giuliani's ex-wife in a forthcoming book said he and Trump are "protective" of each other: "We moved into Mar-a-Lago and Donald kept our secret."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ca.style.yahoo.com



At this point he does put out a subterranean vibe. Seems legit.


----------



## DT

Edd said:


> At this point he does put out a subterranean vibe. Seems legit.




The Morlocks and C.H.U.D. think he's a shitty person/mutant too ...


----------



## Yoused

Supertramp wrote a song about him about half a century ago, the one that begins "_Rudy's on a train to nowhere, halfway down the line …_"


----------



## fooferdoggie




----------



## Yoused




----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> For mere mortals, there are protocols, custodians, chain of custody, numbered copies, checked out then back in, kept in a secure location called a scif.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sensitive Compartmented Information  Facility Use (SCIF) Policy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gsa.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That said I have no idea what protocols are in place for POTUS or in the White House in a normal Administration vs the POS Trump Administration.  The ability to grab boxes of classified documents and have then packed by the movers or secreted away, there is a breakdown of such standards and complicity to break the law involved. It’s no surprise that the Trump Administration flaunted and made a joke of such standards. Based on previous espionage cases, mishandling classified documents , this bastard belongs in jail or at a minimum be disqualified from running for POTUS again.




I’m sure 4 years of bullying people and throwing tantrums played a part.  "Just let her take the wine glass if it will get her out the door."


----------



## Cmaier

The DoJ is appealing the special master ruling to the 11th circuit court of appeals.



			https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.68.0_1.pdf
		


The 11th circuit court of appeals ruled that I couldn’t have violated a lady’s civil rights one time, so I have high hopes.


----------



## Cmaier

DoJ also asking the judge for a partial stay of her order.



			https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.69.0_2.pdf


----------



## Cmaier




----------



## Renzatic

Cmaier said:


> The 11th circuit court of appeals ruled that I couldn’t have violated a lady’s civil rights one time, so I have high hopes.




Okay, I'll take the bait. What's the story behind this?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Glad to see the DoJ appealed. I have heard from defense attorneys that of course they would ask a judge to grant them a special master, but have heard from prosecutors and other judges that such a move in this type of case is so unusual as to be absurd. Coupled with the judge essentially pre-ruling in the subject's favor without hearing any arguments, its confusing at best, corrupt at worst.

I hope the gloves are off at the DoJ. They've already initiated the actions and enraged the cult, so I don't see what else they can do at this point but move ahead full steam.


----------



## Cmaier

Renzatic said:


> Okay, I'll take the bait. What's the story behind this?




Long story. This should give you some of the flavor.


----------



## Renzatic

Cmaier said:


> Long story. This should give you some of the flavor.




It's certainly piqued my interest. Sounds like the beginnings of one helluva courtroom drama story.


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> The DoJ is appealing the special master ruling to the 11th circuit court of appeals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> storage.courtlistener.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 11th circuit court of appeals ruled that I couldn’t have violated a lady’s civil rights one time, so I have high hopes.



Will be interesting to see how it turns out, they can't all be Trump appointees.


----------



## Renzatic

Eric said:


> Will be interesting to see how it turns out, they can't all be Trump appointees.




Though keep in mind that a judge being a Trump appointee isn't necessarily an indicator of bias. Of all the various cases we've seen Trump field since his electoral defeat in 2020, I believe this is the only time we've seen a Trump appointed judge act in a questionable manner to his benefit.


----------



## Cmaier

Renzatic said:


> Though keep in mind that a judge being a Trump appointee isn't necessarily an indicator of bias. Of all the various cases we've seen Trump field since his electoral defeat in 2020, I believe this is the only time we've seen a Trump appointed judge act in a questionable manner to his benefit.



It will be a three-judge panel at the 11th circuit, in all likelihood, so you need two judges on your side.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Cmaier said:


> The DoJ is appealing the special master ruling to the 11th circuit court of appeals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> storage.courtlistener.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 11th circuit court of appeals ruled that I couldn’t have violated a lady’s civil rights one time, so I have high hopes.



but trumped loaded that court too.


----------



## Renzatic

Cmaier said:


> It will be a three-judge panel at the 11th circuit, in all likelihood, so you need two judges on your side.




All we can do is wait and see how it all plays out. By this point, it should be obvious that all our fates are tied to the whims of nepotists and asskissers, always wondering if they'll do what's right for the nation, or what's most convinent for them at any given moment.


----------



## Eric

fooferdoggie said:


> but trumped loaded that court too.



Scary





__





						Senate confirms sixth Trump nominee to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals – Ballotpedia News
					






					news.ballotpedia.org
				






> Overall, the Senate has confirmed 188 of President Trump’s Article III judicial nominees—two Supreme Court justices, 51 appellate court judges, 133 district court judges, and two U.S. Court of International Trade judges—since January 2017. Brasher is the first Article III judge the Senate has confirmed in 2020.




Even in Conservative circles they're questioning Trump though, look at Barr for example and anyone reasonable would let this carry on but under these circumstances it could go either way. In the end it looks like he could very well be above the law by all counts.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

This special master thing seems like an attempt to plead the 5th with evidence. "My client requests the ability to remove any documents that proves they committed a crime." 

This on top of me being completely unaware you can shop around for a sympathetic judge like you shop for car insurance.   There's so much to learn from Trump when he's not attempting to teach you anything.


----------



## rdrr

Eric said:


> Scary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Senate confirms sixth Trump nominee to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals – Ballotpedia News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.ballotpedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even in Conservative circles they're questioning Trump though, look at Barr for example and anyone reasonable would let this carry on but under these circumstances it could go either way. In the end it looks like he could very well be above the law by all counts.



Can the DoJ request that Trump appointed judges recuse themselves from the 3 judge panelling?   However does it really matter?   Next stop, SC.


----------



## Yoused

umm,









						Trump pushed to preserve White House docs because he was convinced Biden would destroy evidence of a 'Deep State' plot against him, report says
					

Trump, who has a reputation for mistreating material, urged aides to preserve Russia-investigation papers, Rolling Stone reported.




					www.businessinsider.com
				




The boxes of classified materials were proof that the Bobby Three Sticks investigation was a Deep State Plot to destroy CFEFWSG. I mean, totally, dude. And if he had not spirited them off to MaL, Biden would has shredded the evidene.


----------



## rdrr

So apparently Cannon is asking Trumps give the reason why 100 classified documents should be put under her order to cease the investigation until the Special Master is appointed. 

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1568010335738535937/


----------



## lizkat

LA Times has interesting piece up discussing the usual --day to day--  handling of documents prepared for presidential review.   People who have actually assisted in those operations in prior administrations are still asking how the hell so many extremely sensitive documents ended up in Mar a Lago.









						'Something horribly failed.' How did so many of America's secrets end up at Mar-a-Lago?
					

News of hundreds of missing classified documents recovered from former President Trump's home has the intelligence community reeling and the public asking: "How could it happen?"




					www.latimes.com
				






> The staff secretary is typically the main point of contact for all communications to the president’s office and leads a staff of more than100 people to ensure the president has the materials needed for all meetings and discussions. They almost always have code-word clearance to handle the country’s most closely guarded secrets, and the authority to determine what information makes it to the president’s desk and what to delegate to someone else.
> 
> Trump’s first staff secretary, Rob Porter, resigned in 2018 after allegations of domestic abuse against him became public. He never obtained a full security clearance, and the White House never said how he did the job without it. Handling and tracking classified documents might have been delegated to lower-ranking officials who did have clearance.
> 
> Trump’s second staff secretary, Derek Lyons, resigned in December 2020 and was not replaced. He did not respond to requests for comment.






> Most staff secretaries use color-coded folders so the president can immediately identify what the information is for, Maloney said. [ Maloney is Congressman Sean Patrick Maloney of NYS who had sserved as staff secretary for Bill Clinton,] Under Clinton, a green folder meant the president needed to take action, such as signing a document; a blue folder indicated it contained information the president needed to know; yellow signified a personal matter and orange was to help prepare the president for a phone call. Classified information went into red folders, Maloney said.
> 
> “There are very capable, highly trained, nonpartisan people who help the staff secretary organize this mountain of paper that has to go to the president and we put together a well-organized stack of materials, each in its own color-coded folder and that goes up to the Oval Office at certain times that are set or that are based on the schedule, and then that material comes back,” Maloney said.






> *Classified materials are handled even more delicately, with the National Security Council executive secretary also tracking them because they need to be stored securely or immediately returned to the Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility. *Commonly called a SCIF, the facilities are a secure place where sensitive information can be viewed and discussed to prevent outside surveillance or spying. The staff that compiles the presidential daily brief is also responsible for tracking down any materials not returned with the briefing book.
> 
> “The idea that there would be classified materials going into the Oval and no record of what happened to them is not a world in which I lived,” Maloney said. “That doesn’t make any sense to me. It’s irresponsible. It’s completely inconsistent with the way a White House should work.”


----------



## Cmaier

rdrr said:


> So apparently Cannon is asking Trumps give the reason why 100 classified documents should be put under her order to cease the investigation until the Special Master is appointed.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1568010335738535937/




The DoJ’s motion puts her in a tough position. If she says “yep, we need a special master to decide whether Trump gets to have back these 100 documents that are actually marked as secret, even though they were subject to a judicially-issued warrant, and even though that means the government can’t actually do a damage assessment or figure out what happened to 90 other folders-worth of documents in the meantime” she will have to abandon the last fig leaf of impartiality that she thinks she has.

And for what it’s worth, I am not worried about the 11th circuit.  The vast majority of federal judges - appointed by Trump or anyone else - have been pretty consistent in applying the law evenly with respect to matters involving Trump.


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> The DoJ’s motion puts her in a tough position. If she says “yep, we need a special master to decide whether Trump gets to have back these 100 documents that are actually marked as secret, even though they were subject to a judicially-issued warrant, and even though that means the government can’t actually do a damage assessment or figure out what happened to 90 other folders-worth of documents in the meantime” she will have to abandon the last fig leaf of impartiality that she thinks she has.
> 
> And for what it’s worth, I am not worried about the 11th circuit.  The vast majority of federal judges - appointed by Trump or anyone else - have been pretty consistent in applying the law evenly with respect to matters involving Trump.



This DoJ has been really consistent in the way they've handled each one of these bumps on the road, thoughtful, rational and sticking to the facts. This is yet another move that puts them (this judge in this case) back on their heels. In the end it just seems to deflect and cost time but DoJ isn't having it and staying the course.


----------



## GermanSuplex

She’s asking questions now she should have made before her ruling? She should save face while she can after considering the DoJ’s argument. It’s not his material, period. There’s no need for a special master to review government documents that belong to said government. Period. Even if the papers were just copies of a banquet menu, they aren’t his.

Hopefully this judge will save face now. Trump is already laying it on pretty thick. I can’t wait to see his reaction if she changes her mind.

Notice how he uses a very typical deflection of white collar criminals (why pick on me when they could catch real criminals?), and whines about crime and corruption when he is a prime example of BOTH.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Rekt  
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1567676844203249664/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Runs For Fun said:


> Rekt
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1567676844203249664/




if nothing else, at least more people are becoming aware of what the Federalist Society is and how they are an enemy of the people. They’ve been able to operate in the dark for far too long. They are a parasite on society. They should be up there with the KKK in public opinion and deserving of a “go fuck yourself" to whatever BS justification they word salad together.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Judge Cannon is going to have her career defined by this case, and its not going to be a good character portrait - personally or professionally. I don't know this woman, and while there's a strong suspicion she did this as a favor (her arguments - or lack of - are indicative of that), its also possible she's just an unqualified republican judge who thought a special master may be a good compromise for transparency and oversight in such a high-profile case. However, all the circumstances around this make me doubt that.

I hope she has thought a lot about this and comes to a better decision. I'm not sure if she can reverse course or if this will automatically be bumped up to appeals court, but if the DoJ appeals and wins, it will be a really bad blemish on her career, and she's just gotten started.

As for these documents, this is almost certainly similar to the Jan. 6 scheme, in that its going to sweep a lot of people up into the storm. His lawyers on this case are already in jeopardy of being witnesses, if not criminal liability. And Trump most certainly did not get these documents home by himself. Even if he had destroyed the infrastructure in place that was meant to keep track of these documents, he clearly had help in both getting them to his club and concealing them from the archives and DoJ.

It's very early into the public knowledge of this case, but each nugget that comes out makes Trump and those around him look worse and worse.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> Judge Cannon is going to have her career defined by this case, and its not going to be a good character portrait - personally or professionally. I don't know this woman, and while there's a strong suspicion she did this as a favor (her arguments - or lack of - are indicative of that), its also possible she's just an unqualified republican judge who thought a special master may be a good compromise for transparency and oversight in such a high-profile case. However, all the circumstances around this make me doubt that.
> 
> I hope she has thought a lot about this and comes to a better decision. I'm not sure if she can reverse course or if this will automatically be bumped up to appeals court, but if the DoJ appeals and wins, it will be a really bad blemish on her career, and she's just gotten started.
> 
> As for these documents, this is almost certainly similar to the Jan. 6 scheme, in that its going to sweep a lot of people up into the storm. His lawyers on this case are already in jeopardy of being witnesses, if not criminal liability. And Trump most certainly did not get these documents home by himself. Even if he had destroyed the infrastructure in place that was meant to keep track of these documents, he clearly had help in both getting them to his club and concealing them from the archives and DoJ.
> 
> It's very early into the public knowledge of this case, but each nugget that comes out makes Trump and those around him look worse and worse.





I think it’s apparent by now that when Trump says “best people” he means “completely unqualified and/or has complete disdain for what I put them in charge of but will use the position to do whatever I tell them to.”


----------



## Runs For Fun

GermanSuplex said:


> Judge Cannon is going to have her career defined by this case, and its not going to be a good character portrait - personally or professionally. I don't know this woman, and while there's a strong suspicion she did this as a favor (her arguments - or lack of - are indicative of that), its also possible she's just an unqualified republican judge who thought a special master may be a good compromise for transparency and oversight in such a high-profile case. However, all the circumstances around this make me doubt that.
> 
> I hope she has thought a lot about this and comes to a better decision. I'm not sure if she can reverse course or if this will automatically be bumped up to appeals court, but if the DoJ appeals and wins, it will be a really bad blemish on her career, and she's just gotten started.
> 
> As for these documents, this is almost certainly similar to the Jan. 6 scheme, in that its going to sweep a lot of people up into the storm. His lawyers on this case are already in jeopardy of being witnesses, if not criminal liability. And Trump most certainly did not get these documents home by himself. Even if he had destroyed the infrastructure in place that was meant to keep track of these documents, he clearly had help in both getting them to his club and concealing them from the archives and DoJ.
> 
> It's very early into the public knowledge of this case, but each nugget that comes out makes Trump and those around him look worse and worse.



Her ruling on this was just so bad I can only hope it ruins her career.


----------



## Yoused

Runs For Fun said:


> Her ruling on this was just so bad I can only hope it ruins her career.




Article III §1
_*The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behavior, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation*_ …​
She really does not have to fret about her "career" as she is basically set for life.


----------



## GermanSuplex

More than a dozen Trump cronies were subpoenaed this week, including doofus Stephen Miller. It’s related to the DoJ’s investigation into January 6. I wonder if these two cases will end up converging, like a two-act conviction saga,

They really ought to make a parody of these events modeled on The Godfather. They can call it “The Confather”.

But I hope the best is yet to come with everyone in this crime syndicate held accountable.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> More than a dozen Trump cronies were subpoenaed this week, i*ncluding doofus Stephen Miller. It’s related to the DoJ’s investigation into January 6.* I wonder if these two cases will end up converging, like a two-act conviction saga,
> 
> They really ought to make a parody of these events modeled on The Godfather. They can call it “The Confather”.
> 
> But I hope the best is yet to come with everyone in this crime syndicate held accountable.




Wowzers... Stephen Miller.  There's a name I haven't heard in awhile - had forgotten about him. Wonder what the DOJ wants to ask him, and if he had a role in Jan6th?


----------



## Runs For Fun

Not sure if this is related to the topic but this seems to be a breaking story. Stay tuned








						Speculation swirls after Trump is spotted flying into Washington, DC
					

Donald Trump was photographed heading to the New Jersey airport on Sunday evening and a flight plan was filed for Dulles in Virginia, an international airport frequently used by those headed to Washington, D.C. Trump was then spotted landing at Dulles and hopping into a blacked-out SUV. Trump...




					www.rawstory.com


----------



## ronntaylor

Runs For Fun said:


> Not sure if this is related to the topic but this seems to be a breaking story. Stay tuned
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speculation swirls after Trump is spotted flying into Washington, DC
> 
> 
> Donald Trump was photographed heading to the New Jersey airport on Sunday evening and a flight plan was filed for Dulles in Virginia, an international airport frequently used by those headed to Washington, D.C. Trump was then spotted landing at Dulles and hopping into a blacked-out SUV. Trump...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rawstory.com



Doubt Mango and his MAGAts would quietly participate in an indictment appearance. If it gets to that, they'll be loud, obnoxious and threatening. They'll make a spectacle of it. And I'm sure it'll leak to get the maximum exposure for the theatrics of an indictment.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Maybe Trump is returning documents that he didn't take, that belonged to him, that the FBI planted, that he declassified, that he would have returned if they only asked and that he used to work from home because, as people like the My Pillow guy keep telling him, the 2020 election was rigged and he really won.


----------



## Citysnaps

mac_in_tosh said:


> Maybe Trump is returning documents that he didn't take, that belonged to him, that the FBI planted, that he declassified, that he would have returned if they only asked and that he used to work from home because, as people like the My Pillow guy keep telling him, the 2020 election was rigged and he really won.




Yeah, that's it!


----------



## Cmaier

Pics of Trump Golfing Quell Rumors Swirling Around His Sudden Return to D.C. — The Daily Beast
					

Footage of former president slipping into Dulles airport on a private jet set off a flurry of speculation on social media.




					apple.news


----------



## Citysnaps

Cmaier said:


> Pics of Trump Golfing Quell Rumors Swirling Around His Sudden Return to D.C. — The Daily Beast
> 
> 
> Footage of former president slipping into Dulles airport on a private jet set off a flurry of speculation on social media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news




Maybe to recover another tranche of classified documents he squirreled away somewhere in the DC area, before the feds find them? And then he's off to Europe to...play some golf with Vlad?

Yeah, that's it...


----------



## Alli

Re Trump in DC: I really don’t care. Do you?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Lots of dissecting team-Trump's argument as to why the government should have a special master reviewing the government documents seized at Mar-A-Lago... notice how they hint the docs may be declassified (not that it would matter much), but never come right out and say so, because doing so would be lying to the court if they are not.

They know Trump didn't declassify these documents, so at best they're trying to hint and insinuate that he had the magic ability to wave his hand and retroactively declassify materials. They're trying to play both sides here and hope for the best.



			https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.84.0.pdf


----------



## ronntaylor

This is wise guy behavior

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1569445542018838528/


----------



## lizkat

ronntaylor said:


> Doubt Mango and his MAGAts would quietly participate in an indictment appearance. If it gets to that, they'll be loud, obnoxious and threatening. They'll make a spectacle of it. And I'm sure it'll leak to get the maximum exposure for the theatrics of an indictment.




Well if it's a sealed indictment with a gag order, Trump or other indicted individuals can't very well give interviews or post on social media about it.

As for pending subpoenas, apparently Trump gathered with some advisors, lawyers and possibly some subpoenaed individuals for a non-golfing afternoon on his Virginia golfing property...  From the body language in some photos floating around Twitter, didn't look like everyone was necessarily on board with whatever Trump was proposing. Imagine that.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1569414373289984007/

At this point, with everyone sane having lawyered up,  Trump might not be "da boss" to extent he'd like to think, at least when it comes to crossing legal lines.   People who used to work for him or still work for him should be careful.  Time to look out for themselves and let Trump do the same.


----------



## lizkat

LOL NBC has video of all these golf carts running around the property, but no golfing..

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1569398818961035268/


----------



## Citysnaps

ronntaylor said:


> This is wise guy behavior




Soprano level.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Not a good sign…

I just zoomed in on one of Trump’s golfing buddies…

I’m waiting for the surveillance plane to run out of gas and land on the fairway.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The Justice Department has accepted one of the Trump team’s picks for special master…









						Justice Dept. says it would accept Trump’s candidate for special master — The Washington Post
					

A judge still must approve Raymond J. Dearie’s appointment for the document review — which has stalled the Justice Department’s criminal probe — to go forward.




					apple.news


----------



## Eric

GermanSuplex said:


> The Justice Department has accepted one of the Trump team’s picks for special master…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Justice Dept. says it would accept Trump’s candidate for special master — The Washington Post
> 
> 
> A judge still must approve Raymond J. Dearie’s appointment for the document review — which has stalled the Justice Department’s criminal probe — to go forward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



I thought they were appealing, is that off the table now or is this something they're doing in parallel?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> I thought they were appealing, is that off the table now or is this something they're doing in parallel?




Pretty sure they will still appeal so they can move forward with their investigation. If the judge allows them (DoJ) to use the government documents in their investigation immediately, they may allow the special master to go ahead without appeal, but if the documents are a part of the review, they’ll almost certainly appeal, as there was no legal reasoning for the judge to make that decision.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> I thought they were appealing, is that off the table now or is this something they're doing in parallel?



They are still appealing.


----------



## GermanSuplex

So the Trump argument against the DoJ going through the government docs is by hinting that they may not be classified (without ever claiming that Trump declassified them).

They argue that these are just presidential records, and argue presidents have broad authority on what they consider “presidential records”. As if that gives a departing president absolute authority on what they can cart home with them.

So what? It’s still government property. You can’t declassify anything you want, deem them as “presidential records” and then take them,

My guess is they’re kicking the can down the road and using that flimsy excuse as an argument now, and will argue whether they are classified or not later on. However, we all know they weren’t declassified. It would make no sense and Trump would have tipped people off that he was stealing records.

They’re not his if they’re classified, and they aren’t suddenly his if they are. The lawyers and Trump may be digging themselves into a deeper hole with these claims they are making.

It’s a poor and easily-seen tactic. They say the government claims they are classified and refer to them in quotes as “classified documents”, but never actually argue Trump declassified them. They just say there’s a dispute over whether they are or not.

It’s not going to end well if they continue on this path, as his lawyers scrambling to make arguments for him gives the DoJ more material for their arguments.


----------



## Runs For Fun

This whole thing is just a giant stalling tactic.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

lizkat said:


> LOL NBC has video of all these golf carts running around the property, but no golfing..



Maybe he's picking out a spot to bury Marla Maples if she passes, possibly along with a bunch of classified documents, so he can get another tax break.


----------



## rdrr

Latest motion by the DoJ.  I like them calling out the the defense argument of “document storage dispute” or an “overdue library book scenario.”   However as one person tweeted, why put the best points in a footnote?

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.88.0_5.pdf


----------



## lizkat

I really wonder what this is about...   and what Kevin McCarthy will do with whatever he learns, too. He can be trusted about as far as I could throw a VW bus.  And where are the rest of the gang usually in on something very sensitive?

CIA-related briefing would not be about USA citizens or issues, unless it's about some breach of our own methods or sources, or else about some bad guy from elsewhere who's popped up here somehow.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1569794882360999937/


----------



## lizkat

Hogan running an interesting thread.  

btw  re the E6 Mercury reference:    Principal mission of the E-6 Mercury is to connect the national command authority with the US Navy nuclear missile force carried aboard at-sea ballistic missile submarines.  The E-6 is a militarized version of the commercial 707 civilian airliner and carries a very low frequency communications system with dual trailing wire antennas.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1569808353920184320/


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> I really wonder what this is about...




An update on the Russian retreat in Ukraine?


----------



## lizkat

Citysnaps said:


> An update on the Russian retreat in Ukraine?




Could be.    and if so, I'm posting about it in the wrong thread lol.      Must be past my bedtime ...

EDIT:  now people are saying the E6 would be about the fact that the Bidens made an unannounced trip to Delaware... probably to vote in the primary elections in person.    

Not sure that required a SCIF briefing from the CIA though.


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> Could be.    and if so, I'm posting about it in the wrong thread lol.      Must be past my bedtime lol.




Who knows...

The E6B is interesting.  Hard to say if it's related - might be.  They train a lot on the east coast.

Here's a pretty good real-time aircraft tracking site.  If you want to see just govt/military aircraft, click on the "U" at the upper right corner of the map.






						ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live
					

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live - aircraft flight history




					globe.adsbexchange.com


----------



## rdrr

lizkat said:


> Could be.    and if so, I'm posting about it in the wrong thread lol.      Must be past my bedtime ...
> 
> EDIT:  now people are saying the E6 would be about the fact that the Bidens made an unannounced trip to Delaware... probably to vote in the primary elections in person.
> 
> Not sure that required a SCIF briefing from the CIA though.



My guess is that the events in question was and unfortunate and uncomfortable coincidence.   Bad timing....  Things like that make people jumpy. 

On the other hand, would the CIA get involved if there was compromised top secret information confirmed in the hands of non authorized US personnel?


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> My guess is that the events in question was and unfortunate and uncomfortable coincidence.   Bad timing....  Things like that make people jumpy.
> 
> On the other hand, would the CIA get involved if there was compromised top secret information confirmed in the hands of non authorized US personnel?




Yeah I don't think the SCIF gig and the E6 circling around the skies tonight are related.   Curious about the CIA briefing to just some of the intel gang of 8 though.   Ranking member on house side missing, and does the Senate bunch get their own briefing or they're just not around?


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> or they're just not around?




Maybe they're "playing golf" with trump trying to get their stories straight.


----------



## Alli

All because Mercury is in retrograde.


----------



## rdrr

Cannon denied the DoJ request to remove the halting of the investigation on the classified documents.   How can this be view as anything but partisan?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1570549527224143873/


----------



## Cmaier

DoJ has appealed.



			https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183-48f7-dd78-adb3-6dff488e0000


----------



## Cmaier

To be clear, so far at least, the appeal is a motion to stay the lower court’s order. It’s not, technically, an appeal.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Cmaier said:


> To be clear, so far at least, the appeal is a motion to stay the lower court’s order. It’s not, technically, an appeal.



she really gave it to trump. even saying that there may be no classified documents and trump and c should be able to look at them all. well they better have the clearance for it then.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Is that a threat?








						Trump warns of 'big problems' if he's indicted over handling of classified documents — USA TODAY
					

Trump's comments come weeks after the FBI's search of his Florida home as part of an investigation into the mishandling of classified papers.




					apple.news


----------



## fooferdoggie

Runs For Fun said:


> Is that a threat?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump warns of 'big problems' if he's indicted over handling of classified documents — USA TODAY
> 
> 
> Trump's comments come weeks after the FBI's search of his Florida home as part of an investigation into the mishandling of classified papers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



of course its s he is good at that. he would love to see America burn make him feel like a big man.


----------



## Edd

Runs For Fun said:


> Is that a threat?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump warns of 'big problems' if he's indicted over handling of classified documents — USA TODAY
> 
> 
> Trump's comments come weeks after the FBI's search of his Florida home as part of an investigation into the mishandling of classified papers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



100%, and a message to the cult. If anything bad happens, “that’s not what I meant”.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Of course he means it as a threat. It’s sad we’re watching him playing this game all over again.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

How much longer will this go on? This orange menace has committed several crimes which would have led to indictments for anyone else and he's creating discord in the nation with his continual lying about a rigged election and his threats of "big problems." Whether he declassified the documents or not (and of course he didn't), he was in illegal possession of them and didn't turn them over as required by a subpoena. That's at least obstruction, you know, like what he did in the Russia investigation. These are some of the nation's top secrets and he may still have some as indicated by the empty folders. Or worse, he's sold or given them to foreign nationals. He based a big part of his 2016 campaign on Hillary's supposed unfitness for office because of her handling of emails but what he's done is orders of magnitude worse. And all this is above and beyond inciting a violent attack on the Capitol to block the peaceful transition of power. Enough with the endless investigations.


----------



## Cmaier

11th circuit wasting no time.


----------



## lizkat

From that cited piece about Trump mouthing off about possible indictment:
​"I think if it happened, I think you’d have problems in this country the likes of which perhaps we’ve never seen before. I don’t think the people of the United States would stand for it," Trump told conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt Thursday.​
Yeah well what I think the people of the United States would not stand for is if Joe Biden decided to pardon Trump and/or some high level insurrectionists,  after or even without indictments or convictions.

I was not one of the Americans who went batsh^t when President Ford pardoned Nixon.  I remember being shocked when I happened to be listening to the radio and heard Ford make the announcement.  However, I didn't object.  The country was so weary of Vietnam and struggling with how to reconcile veterans and antiwar protestors, and then comes Nixon's insane attempt to cover up a stupid political stunt,  and his arrogance in turning that into a series of constitutional challenges.  It was made clear by his own party's leadership that he was subject to rule of law and I was willing to let his unprecedented resignation from the presidency be end of the story.

But Trump's transgressions have been of an entirely different duration and in a whole other league -- and so have those of the party that still to this day enables him--  and I hope to God that Biden would not decide to try to smooth things over and "move on" by throwing a pardon (or pardons...) into the mix.

It would be like saying ok so while this guy Trump was operating in some kind of imagined alternate reality, we didn't really have a rule of law that applied to everybody,  but now that's over and the danger is past.  Well the danger's not past and "it" is a power grab by near fascists in a hijacked GOP, and that behavior is definitely not over.

I do still assume Biden would not pardon Trump,  but in the middle of the night now once in awhile it crosses my mind.  In those moments I can even rue the fact that he highly values trying to be a conciliator of Americans with polarized views in these times.  He shouldn't imagine that most in his own party would forgive him letting Trump skate -- even if "accepting a pardon means acknowledging guilt."


----------



## Edd

Trump deserves to be lawfully executed.


----------



## Yoused

Edd said:


> Trump deserves to be lawfully executed.




No, that is too dangerous. We are not in need of high-profile RW martyrs. What should be done is a midnight rendition to a CIA black site. Nobody will know where he is or even whether he is still alive, save for half a dozen agents.


----------



## Edd

Yoused said:


> No, that is too dangerous. We are not in need of high-profile RW martyrs. What should be done is a midnight rendition to a CIA black site. Nobody will know where he is or even whether he is still alive, save for half a dozen agents.



I agree we don’t need that, but Trump is, very likely, a Russian asset. Gotta put him down as a warning. These decisions are hard, brother. He is a clear and present danger.


----------



## lizkat

Trump is a sociopath and an extreme narcissist.   He's likely to end up a blithering incompetent if his fantasies of omnipotence are punctured with indictment(s) and the threat of public trial(s).

Even though narcissists crave the public spotlight, the exception is public humiliation.  Trump has never even been able to tolerate policy advisors so much as questioning his views on an issue in the relative privacy of an Oval Office meeting.   He flies into a rage when someone offers irrefutable data showing that his outlook is unsupportable.  

He has already (foolishly) said "the USA won't stand for it"  if is he indicted.  Some take that as incitement to violence by his followers, which he denies, but what it is first and above all is a statement that HE won't stand for it...  actually that he won't be able to stand it.

Indictment of a former president (on what we can assume would only be irrefutable evidence of guilt) is the ultimate humiliation.  It's saying that the rule of law does apply to him, he is not special,  and it's not true that  "_L'état, c'est mo_i."  He is not the state, he is not the head of state, he is plain ol' Don in the dock, brought there like a common criminal but on charges of stealing state papers or espionage or whatever is the evidence that DoJ finally decides is chargeable and can withstand questions of "reasonable doubt".

With any luck he actually will be indicted for something, will flip out completely and his lawyers will be able to make stick a defense of incompetence to stand trial due to mental illness.  

Yes he's dangerous because of his appeal to a lot of (mostly passive-reactive) cult of authoritarian followers,,  but he would be even more dangerous if he ended up seen as a martyr.   That outcome is possible even if he totally skates on all his transgressions, since his cult already figures he's being persecuted.

But if he were put up on charges of treason, convicted (although who's to say a jury will have the gus to convict a former president of treason even on good evidence?) and then sentenced to death,  It's a certainty that of the 13 million or so estimated "followers" of Donald Trump,   every last one of the far smaller number who are pro-actively prepared to commit violence now to "restore" him to the Oval Office would be prepared then to commit specific and random sorts of violence in retribution... even though the average delay in death sentences is over 20 years.  So Trump's right in a way that the US won't stand for it.  But that's the extreme case, which of course is how Trump's brain is looking at it.

Better to indict him and hope he never has to stand trial.  All those hamburgers will have the last word. 

As much as I'd like to think the DoJ will charge this guy,  I'm no lawyer, much less a constitutional scholar and have never been stupid enough to lay money on my guesstimates about how politics and the rule of law intersect in a courtroom either.   I have a long memory of being so often so surprised and so wrong...


----------



## Cmaier

LOL.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Can trump announce any more how guilty he is?


----------



## GermanSuplex

I hope Trump is just borrowing time with these stall tactics, but ends up having to pay interest. He may have gotten a special master, but even if the DoJ allows him to go ahead without a full appeal, it may weaken their arguments later on.

Already we’re seeing them (Trump’s lawyers) refuse to provide evidence of declassification - that’s because he didn’t and lying at this stage is criminal. And because it doesn’t matter if he did. Which they also know.

It makes zero sense to not provide something routine like evidence of declassification. Unless it doesn’t exist and you’d have to lie to do so…

Trump is beyond guilty. It’s so aggravating seeing this, but him being shielded by uncodified rules and millions of Americans who think he can do no wrong is slowing the process down. I don’t think he gets away with this one though. Remember, the government knows a lot more things than we do. They know things Trump doesn’t think they know. Hell, it wouldn’t surprise me if they have video from inside the White House of his staff fetching his documents and loading them into trucks. Maybe they’ve already interviewed people who have given statements against him. Any lying to the government at this point means more charges, that’s why his team is using the “he declassified them” defense - _without actually making that argument to the court._

He got lucky in finding the goofy judge to break precedent and give him special treatment. But he won’t have that run of luck throughout the process, and even if he did, I’m not sure it would help. Hell, he’s so daft he may end up breaking more laws by the time it’s said and done.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> I hope Trump is just borrowing time with these stall tactics, but ends up having to pay interest. He may have gotten a special master, but even if the DoJ allows him to go ahead without a full appeal, it may weaken their arguments later on.
> 
> Already we’re seeing them (Trump’s lawyers) refuse to provide evidence of declassification - that’s because he didn’t and lying at this stage is criminal. And because it doesn’t matter if he did. Which they also know.
> 
> It makes zero sense to not provide something routine like evidence of declassification. Unless it doesn’t exist and you’d have to lie to do so…
> 
> Trump is beyond guilty. It’s so aggravating seeing this, but him being shielded by uncodified rules and millions of Americans who think he can do no wrong is slowing the process down. I don’t think he gets away with this one though. Remember, the government knows a lot more things than we do. They know things Trump doesn’t think they know. Hell, it wouldn’t surprise me if they have video from inside the White House of his staff fetching his documents and loading them into trucks. Maybe they’ve already interviewed people who have given statements against him. Any lying to the government at this point means more charges, that’s why his team is using the “he declassified them” defense - _without actually making that argument to the court._
> 
> He got lucky in finding the goofy judge to break precedent and give him special treatment. But he won’t have that run of luck throughout the process, and even if he did, I’m not sure it would help. Hell, he’s so daft he may end up breaking more laws by the time it’s said and done.




This aligns with claiming massive voter fraud when they haven't even proven minimal voter fraud.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I can’t wait until the drops of news come in tomorrow. Trump wanted a special master - he got it. They even gave him one of the names he asked for (his lawyers rejected the DoJ picks).

Now, the special master will have to go through the documents… The question is, what about the classified documents? Trump is saying the government has no right to take back the documents… but won’t provide he declassified them (which still doesn’t make them his). And that is the brick wall in his defense - it literally makes no sense.

The government says “These are our classified documents. And they’re still ours if they’re declassified”. Trump’s BEST defense is that he did so. But he can’t provide any proof that he did. Pretty sure the SM isn’t going to say “Well, burn them. He says they’re declassified, so end the investigation”.

He’s going to ask for proof they’re declassified and go from there, or he’s going to say “If you have nothing to combat the government’s assertion that these documents - labeled classified - are just that, then I will take their word that they are classified government documents”.

So Trump’s lawyers will have to lie and say he declassified them, or confess. Perjury or confession. This may not have been the best choice of a stall tactic, as it could hasten proof the government’s accusations are true, and even provide the feds more evidence in a future indictment. All of this stuff is on the record - every comment Trump makes, every document his lawyers sign, every argument they make in court, every TV interview…

The lies are catching up quick. It’s simple - he lost the election, a multi-pronged effort to overturn the results failed, so he took a bunch of important shit back to his gaudy golf club. It’s really an open and shut case, but money apparently buys you a lot of time.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> I can’t wait until the drops of news come in tomorrow. Trump wanted a special master - he got it. They even gave him one of the names he asked for (his lawyers rejected the DoJ picks).
> 
> Now, the special master will have to go through the documents… The question is, what about the classified documents? Trump is saying the government has no right to take back the documents… but won’t provide he declassified them (which still doesn’t make them his). And that is the brick wall in his defense - it literally makes no sense.
> 
> The government says “These are our classified documents. And they’re still ours if they’re declassified”. Trump’s BEST defense is that he did so. But he can’t provide any proof that he did. Pretty sure the SM isn’t going to say “Well, burn them. He says they’re declassified, so end the investigation”.
> 
> He’s going to ask for proof they’re declassified and go from there, or he’s going to say “If you have nothing to combat the government’s assertion that these documents - labeled classified - are just that, then I will take their word that they are classified government documents”.
> 
> So Trump’s lawyers will have to lie and say he declassified them, or confess. Perjury or confession. This may not have been the best choice of a stall tactic, as it could hasten proof the government’s accusations are true, and even provide the feds more evidence in a future indictment. All of this stuff is on the record - every comment Trump makes, every document his lawyers sign, every argument they make in court, every TV interview…
> 
> The lies are catching up quick. It’s simple - he lost the election, a multi-pronged effort to overturn the results failed, so he took a bunch of important shit back to his gaudy golf club. It’s really an open and shut case, but money apparently buys you a lot of time.




This will be fun to watch and see which way they go. And what follows.


----------



## GermanSuplex

He has no defense and any argument they make opens them up to having to confess. It’s really a dead-end for them, the only things slowing the feds down are one goofy judge and the midterms.

I expect this special master - if he is half as decent as both sides claim - to say “Uh, if you’re not going to argue you declassified them, wtf do you expect to happen?”

I expect Fox News and Trump will be discrediting this guy before the week is up. Would not be shocked if it happens as soon as tomorrow. I’m sure some in cult-world have already started, but I expect it go mainstream the moment something doesn’t go in TFG’s favor.


----------



## lizkat

i could be mistaken,  but I think I read that the special master was a FISA judge so I believe that he was (and could be again immediately) cleared to read any of the documents.

Of course that won't stop Trump or Fox from coming up with some disqualification or other in case the guy turns out to be such a straight arrow that he looks through the stuff in two days and says to Trump "Better put your street clothes on" and to the lawyers "Best of luck."

As far as Trump's lawyers go...  they know not to claim he declassified stuff.   They could be disbarred for asserting stuff like that when it's easy enough to verify that it's not true.  You don't just declassify stuff by blowing smoke over it and calling it good.

TFG didn't declassify anything, ya think?  No records of it, nor explanations of why.   He was too frantically busy trying to overturn Biden's election right up to the day he had to leave office. 
God knows who packed up his office for him, never mind who supposedly took care of papers down at Mar a Lago that reports say he didn't even treat properly when he was stil prez.  And only he and one or two other people will know what he took from DC at the end and packed for himself, i.e. material that he really had no business even asking for in the last few days of his presidency.   Sure he could ask for anything right up to noon on the 20th, but for what purpose?


----------



## thekev

GermanSuplex said:


> Already we’re seeing them (Trump’s lawyers) refuse to provide evidence of declassification - that’s because he didn’t and lying at this stage is criminal. And because it doesn’t matter if he did. Which they also know.




Even if he did, it probably wouldn't make some of those actions legal.


----------



## GermanSuplex

thekev said:


> Even if he did, it probably wouldn't make some of those actions legal.




It absolutely doesn’t make anything he is. That is why his lawyers are flipping over themselves. Even the argument that he declassified them is an admission that they aren’t his records. There’s just nothing he can argue that makes any sense or explains why he had sensitive government property at his golf club - and actively lied about it when confronted.

He can’t argue it was an accident, or he would have already done so and returned the documents. White House counsel warned him taking these documents could be a crimes. He lied about returning the documents. He lied to the archives about even having these documents. Now he’s complaining that they “were cooperating”. The facts say differently.

Unlike Nixon, this is the crime AND the coverup.

Keep an eye on the news today, should be interesting!


----------



## rdrr

Did I read last night or am I hallucinating that Trump's lawyers claim they won't give their accounts of declassification until they get his property back (including the top secret documents)?   My guess is that he doesn't know entirely what documents he had, and wants to get them back because he wants to just say, "yes these are all declassified."


----------



## Pumbaa

rdrr said:


> Did I read last night or am I hallucinating that Trump's lawyers claim they won't give their accounts of declassification until they get his property back (including the top secret documents)?   My guess is that he doesn't know entirely what documents he had, and wants to get them back because he wants to just say, "yes these are all declassified."



Or he knew what he stole but doesn’t know which documents the FBI actually found.

It would really suck for him to list a bunch of documents he supposedly declassified and held at Mar-a-Lago only for some of them to be missing/not part of the seized ones.


----------



## lizkat

Pumbaa said:


> Or he knew what he stole but doesn’t know which documents the FBI actually found.
> 
> It would really suck for him to list a bunch of documents he supposedly declassified and held at Mar-a-Lago only for some of them to be missing/not part of the seized ones.




Declassification does have methods and procedures even if it is possible for a sitting President to devise differences in some of those approaches.    Out of office now, Trump cannot find a safe way to suggest that he did something like that, and in any case some of the retrieved material is extremely problematic to him simply because its restricted access was not even a matter of its "classification" per se.  

Those engaged or appointed to assist Trump had better know the law and also look to their careers here,  or else this bunch of shenanigans is going to end up with a longer list of disbarred lawyers than occurred during Watergate.   Plus maybe at least one disgraced or impeached judge,  if Cannon doesn't quit trying to serve two masters.   Someone should tell her that so far the rule of law has prevailed in Trump's efforts to overturn an election, therefore why should it go differently over matters of stolen documents with the reek of potential espionage about their handling.

Sure Trump deserves due process but not at the expense of  trying to demonstrate that he is above our rule of law or has special extrajudicial rights vis a vis DoJ or FBI, etc.    Malarkey.   If he doesn't like what's going to happen in some of these cases where he has helped walk himself into a legal _cul-de-sac_,  let him exercise his right to leave the country while he still has it.   If he still has it.  Does he still have it?


----------



## rdrr

lizkat said:


> Declassification does have methods and procedures even if it is possible for a sitting President to devise differences in some of those approaches.    Out of office now, Trump cannot find a safe way to suggest that he did something like that, and in any case some of the retrieved material is extremely problematic to him simply because its restricted access was not even a matter of its "classification" per se.
> 
> Those engaged or appointed to assist Trump had better know the law and also look to their careers here,  or else this bunch of shenanigans is going to end up with a longer list of disbarred lawyers than occurred during Watergate.   Plus maybe at least one disgraced or impeached judge,  if Cannon doesn't quit trying to serve two masters.   Someone should tell her that so far the rule of law has prevailed in Trump's efforts to overturn an election, therefore why should it go differently over matters of stolen documents with the reek of potential espionage about their handling.
> 
> Sure Trump deserves due process but not at the expense of  trying to demonstrate that he is above our rule of law or has special extrajudicial rights vis a vis DoJ or FBI, etc.    Malarkey.   If he doesn't like what's going to happen in some of these cases where he has helped walk himself into a legal _cul-de-sac_,  let him exercise his right to leave the country while he still has it.   If he still has it.  Does he still have it?



You are talking about his legal jeopardy.  I was thinking, he wants them back to so he can say to his lemmings "oh, I declassified everything about X, Y, and Z.  By waving my magic wand"   Trump is playing the game of public opinion.

Edit:  An amicus brief has been filed by 10 former GOP officials.   I guess Trump has called in some favors.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

The best simple explanation I’ve heard of why things are playing out the way they are is the system is setup to protect people like Trump. We just haven’t seen it played out so publicly and with one of the biggest public whiners ever born as the defendant.

The biggest irony, as most things in ass-backward Trump world, is he loves to whine about a rigged system when the rigged system is exactly what has benefitted him his entire life.


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> You are talking about his legal jeopardy.  I was thinking, he wants them back to so he can say to his lemmings "oh, I declassified everything about X, Y, and Z.  By waving my magic wand"   *Trump is playing the game of public opinion.*
> 
> Edit:  An amicus brief has been filed by 10 former GOP officials.   I guess Trump has called in some favors.




 Of course he plays to his followers.    All he thinks about is "How do I look?  Super powerful?"

As for the GOP officials' amicus brief:  ugh... why are they still groveling before Trump?  Can it all just be about trying to score votes in midterms?  Who the heck knows how many of the MAGA cultists actually vote?

Anyway they risk going on record as anything but the law'n'order party.  Can they not imagine how it would look to have argued in favor of a guy who might have scarfed up some sensitive info he may have thought to sell?   Or just figuring the odds favor sticking with him until the midterms and then "discovering" ugly facts in already released DoJ filings and saying "oh, see, if i had known THAT in September, well.,,"

Maybe it's more of an intraparty thing, the amicus brief... striking back at some establishment Republicans who have openly begun to put daylight between themselves and the MAGA crowd.   There are GOP officials who have signed letters urging red state and county election officials not to muck around with certification of election results, stuff like that.   Not all the Rs are total lawbreakers.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The whole argument is bizarre. It can't be lost on the GOP that our laws do not permit a president who's on his way out to take a bunch of stuff home at the last minute, hide it from the rightful owners, refuse to provide proof they were declassified, yet still claim possession of the documents. It just doesn't add up.

But we all know this. The question is really how many avenues do Trump and his lawyers have to delay justice? Can they appeal every decision on every issue? At what point does it go from a legal defense to gaming the system?

The Trump team should NOT be allowed to present an argument, then stonewall any attempts to verify the arguments they're making. True, its the government's job to prove their case, but how are they supposed to do that when they've been ordered to halt utilizing some of the very evidence they went looking for? Trump's team is arguing against their own alibi - which is a pretty poor one to begin with.


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> The best simple explanation I’ve heard of why things are playing out the way they are is the system is setup to protect people like Trump. We just haven’t seen it played out so publicly and with one of the biggest public whiners ever born as the defendant.
> 
> The biggest irony, as most things in ass-backward Trump world, is he loves to whine about a rigged system when the rigged system is exactly what has benefitted him his entire life.



He PROJECTS, _the System is rigged!!_ Translation: _The System is not rigged in my favor!!_


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> The whole argument is bizarre. It can't be lost on the GOP that our laws do not permit a president who's on his way out to take a bunch of stuff home at the last minute, hide it from the rightful owners, refuse to provide proof they were declassified, yet still claim possession of the documents. It just doesn't add up.
> 
> But we all know this. The question is really how many avenues do Trump and his lawyers have to delay justice? Can they appeal every decision on every issue? At what point does it go from a legal defense to gaming the system?
> 
> The Trump team should NOT be allowed to present an argument, then stonewall any attempts to verify the arguments they're making. True, its the government's job to prove their case, but how are they supposed to do that when they've been ordered to halt utilizing some of the very evidence they went looking for? Trump's team is arguing against their own alibi - which is a pretty poor one to begin with.





If there was any real justice all these lies and stonewalling would just lead to more severe punishment to the point that nobody would attempt this type of shit.  He's done more damage to the country than any foreign terrorist attack and has ushered in the exact destabilization our enemies long for.  At minimum, the government should at least provide the illusion of security and stability for its citizens.  Trump and Trumpism has done nothing but tell everybody we're fucked and that goes for everybody from his supporters to his haters.


----------



## rdrr

Trump team tells 11 Circuit Court that "at its core is a document storage dispute that has spiraled out of control."
Seems like a plausible argument... 

Edit:  In other news, things are going well on the Special Master arena.
BREAKING: Judge Dearie makes clear he is taking government’s position that the classified Mar-a-Lago documents are in fact classified. “What business is it of the court? … As far as I’m concerned that’s the end of it.”


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> Trump team tells 11 Circuit Court that "at its core is a document storage dispute that has spiraled out of control."
> Seems like a plausible argument...
> 
> Edit:  In other news, things are going well on the Special Master arena.
> BREAKING: Judge Dearie makes clear he is taking government’s position that the classified Mar-a-Lago documents are in fact classified. “What business is it of the court? … As far as I’m concerned that’s the end of it.”




Heh...  Trump wanted a special master and got it.  

Hope he wants an orange jump suit, that's the kind we mostly have in the USA...


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> Heh...  Trump wanted a special master and got it.
> 
> Hope he wants an orange jump suit, that's the kind we mostly have in the USA...




trump will be nicely accessorized wearing an orange jump suit!


----------



## Renzatic

rdrr said:


> Judge Dearie makes clear he is taking government’s position that the classified Mar-a-Lago documents are in fact classified. “What business is it of the court? … As far as I’m concerned that’s the end of it.”




I'm trying to find a link to this, but the latest I can find states that, so far, Dearie has only requested evidence that Trump sought to declassify the information. You got one I can check out?


----------



## fooferdoggie

Citysnaps said:


> trump will be nicely accessorized wearing an orange jump suit!



How would you know he is wearing it he would vanish.


----------



## Nycturne

Renzatic said:


> I'm trying to find a link to this, but the latest I can find states that, so far, Dearie has only requested evidence that Trump sought to declassify the information. You got one I can check out?




Agreed. The closest I can find is that if Trump's lawyers don't offer up that evidence, he will side with the DOJ, as the burden is on Trump's side on that point, not the DOJ.


----------



## lizkat

Renzatic said:


> I'm trying to find a link to this, but the latest I can find states that, so far, Dearie has only requested evidence that Trump sought to declassify the information. You got one I can check out?




Wall Street Journal ran a piece quoting Dearie in his first public hearing in Brooklyn yesterday.









						Special Master in Trump Mar-a-Lago Case Holds First Public Hearing
					

Justice Department emphasizes sensitivity of documents seized at Mar-a-Lago, while Donald Trump’s defense lawyers attack the National Archives.




					www.wsj.com
				






> “I’m faced with a discrete number of judicial decisions that I will endeavor to make responsibly,” he said.
> 
> The Justice Department has identified a subset of records as classified, and Judge Dearie said he would treat those records carefully.
> 
> *Department lawyers told the judge some of the classified documents were so sensitive that some members of its review team hadn’t yet received clearance to examine them.
> 
> Judge Dearie said that if the documents bear markings of being classified, that would be a strong reason not to provide them to Mr. Trump’s legal team.
> 
> “As far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it,” he said.*
> 
> James Trusty, a lawyer for Mr. Trump, pushed Judge Dearie for access to the documents marked classified, saying his legal team needed to see them to inform its potential arguments that Mr. Trump had declassified the material.
> 
> Mr. Trusty didn’t assert that the former president had actually done so, however, prompting Judge Dearie to say: “You can’t have your cake and eat it."


----------



## GermanSuplex

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> If there was any real justice all these lies and stonewalling would just lead to more severe punishment to the point that nobody would attempt this type of shit.  He's done more damage to the country than any foreign terrorist attack and has ushered in the exact destabilization our enemies long for.  At minimum, the government should at least provide the illusion of security and stability for its citizens.  Trump and Trumpism has done nothing but tell everybody we're fucked and that goes for everybody from his supporters to his haters.




I was just thinking the other day, how it doesn’t seem like anything less than a mass terrorist attack would unite us. And yet, that seems highly unlikely at the moment, because foreign adversaries are watching the turmoil without needing to do anything. Russia doesn’t even need to meddle in our elections anymore, Trump has done far more to cast doubt than they could ever hope to.

And I can imagine that clips of his cult rally in Ohio this past weekend make perfect video footage of the destabilization of democracy in America.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> I was just thinking the other day, how it doesn’t seem like anything less than a mass terrorist attack would unite us. And yet, that seems highly unlikely at the moment, because foreign adversaries are watching the turmoil without needing to do anything. Russia doesn’t even need to meddle in our elections anymore, Trump has done far more to cast doubt than they could ever hope to.
> 
> And I can imagine that clips of his cult rally in Ohio this past weekend make perfect video footage of the destabilization of democracy in America.




Exactly.  

And all the other fascist wannabe losers in the world are referencing the same playbook.  Everything is all foreigners' fault.  They're actually a bunch of predictable dullards, but unfortunately this kind of lazy scapegoating appeals to way too many people.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> Trump has done far more to cast doubt than they could ever hope to.




The only reason for the Republicans to try to cast doubt on integrity of our electoral mechanisms is if they believe they can never win a free and fair election without cheating. 

Pretty embarrassing.  They could have just done what Romney was trying to get the Republicans to do party-wide  in 2012 after Obama was re-elected:   rethink the platform, reach out to more women and HIspanics.   They were actually doing well with that and then along came faux populist Trump to try to burn the whole thing down and try on president-for-life robes.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

lizkat said:


> God knows who packed up his office for him, never mind who supposedly took care of papers down at Mar a Lago that reports say he didn't even treat properly when he was stil prez...



And while the papers were at Mar-A-Lardo, Trump wasn't even living there for large stretches of time, such as during the summer when he stays up north. So in addition to not storing them in a sufficiently secure location, he wasn't even personally looking after them.


----------



## rdrr

Renzatic said:


> I'm trying to find a link to this, but the latest I can find states that, so far, Dearie has only requested evidence that Trump sought to declassify the information. You got one I can check out?



Sorry about that I was on my way out the door, and was a little too anxious about what I saw, that I didn't actually look at the supplied link.   Unfortunately its relinked story from Washington Examiner on MSN.  So not worth the edit I did. 



			Special master tells Trump to show declassification evidence or he will rule them 'classified'


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> If there was any real justice all these lies and stonewalling would just lead to more severe punishment to the point that nobody would attempt this type of shit.  He's done more damage to the country than any foreign terrorist attack and has ushered in the exact destabilization our enemies long for.  At minimum, the government should at least provide the illusion of security and stability for its citizens.  Trump and Trumpism has done nothing but tell everybody we're fucked and that goes for everybody from his supporters to his haters.



Trump is an anarchist as far as tearing down existing Federal Authority to be replaced by his own control in the new corrupt, FSA- Fascist States of America.


----------



## rdrr

Nervous about this morning, will the 11 Circuit Court rule in favor of the stay?   Will Cannon fire Dearie?  Is there any traction on the twitter rumor that the Chief Justice of the 11th Circuit coordinated with the 11 AGs who submitted the Amicus brief?   Picked a bad month to quit drinking.


----------



## Citysnaps

So far I'm really liking Judge Dearie. I'm guessing trump's legal team feel differently.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Citysnaps said:


> So far I'm really liking Judge Dearie. I'm guessing trump's legal team feel differently.



how times has this happened with trump? his lackey turns against him?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Citysnaps said:


> So far I'm really liking Judge Dearie. I'm guessing trump's legal team feel differently.




We've moved to the lightning round of Trump's "best people" flipping to "deep state hack" by the next day.  The only thing shocking is people continue to signup to get on the train.  

Lately I've been thinking about how the growth of the US in the beginning was largely driven by European conmen promising a way better reality than what people got when they hit the shores.  Then "optimism" replaced "being a sucker" in the mythology.  Now we're a bunch of suckers with zero optimism.


----------



## Citysnaps

What I really love about this story is that Judge Dearie was picked by trumps' attorneys.  

DOJ attorneys, who likely had a much better understanding of Dearie's demeanor and history, were no doubt gobsmacked and couldn't approve fast enough.


----------



## rdrr

Citysnaps said:


> What I really love about this story is that Judge Dearie was picked by trumps' attorneys.
> 
> DOJ attorneys, who likely had a much better understanding of Dearie's demeanor and history, were no doubt gobsmacked and couldn't approve fast enough.



They picked him, but now are saying he doesn't understand Cannon's instructions.  Not a good strategy.   However, I don't like the idea that Cannon can overrule his findings and or remove him.   If Cannon does dismiss Dearie, I think it would certainly put the Trump team and Cannon in a corner for the DoJ to appeal and possibly find bias against Cannon.


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> Nervous about this morning, will the 11 Circuit Court rule in favor of the stay?   Will Cannon fire Dearie?  Is there any traction on the twitter rumor that the Chief Justice of the 11th Circuit coordinated with the 11 AGs who submitted the Amicus brief?   Picked a bad month to quit drinking.




Imagine if this is the month Trump's physician finally told him to give up hamberders fries and diet cokes.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Next Trump will file a motion to be the prosecuting attorney against himself causing yet another perverse blindspot crisis.  

But at least we leared that if you are going to kill somebody you can shop around for a pro murder judge.


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> They picked him, but now are saying he doesn't understand Cannon's instructions.  Not a good strategy.   However, I don't like the idea that Cannon can overrule his findings and or remove him.   If Cannon does dismiss Dearie, I think it would certainly put the Trump team and Cannon in a corner for the DoJ to appeal and possibly find bias against Cannon.




I have trouble thinking that Cannon would go so far as to dismiss Dearie.    In his first public hearing, Dearie has only indicated his _*inclination*_ to withhold any documents with classified markings  from Trump team review if the Trump lawyers are not willing to affirm that there ARE docs there that Trump DID declassify. 

Sure the remark memorandizes a catch-22 situation for Trump (not that the lawyers were unaware of it), but it was a perfectly logical remark for the circumstances and anyway as a remark --even if viewed as a warning shot across the bow-- it doesn't seem strong enough to justify a dismissal of a special master.    The consequent reaction from legal community would not likely do either Trump or Cannon any favors.  

Remarkable restraint so far from DoJ in not just hiring a sky-writing plane to tow a banner across Mar a Lago:   STOP STALLING DUE PROCESS.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

lizkat said:


> Imagine if this is the month Trump's physician finally told him to give up hamberders fries and diet cokes.



and just stick with buckets of fried chicken?

Let's not forget that the corrupt White House doctor declared borderline obese, junk food consuming and non-exercising Trump to be in excellent health. Before the 2016 election, another corrupt doctor said he would be the "healthiest individual ever elected" to office. And we can go further back when another doctor declared Trump to have bone spurs. That was believed to be a favor to Trump's father as he was one of his tenants.

Trump has a lifelong record of corruption which is all the more astonishing as he seems so far to have gotten away with it except in two cases that I know of. One was the fine for his bogus Trump University. The other was the fine for illegally using Trump Foundation funds. "Trump charity" should be a dictionary example of an oxymoron.


----------



## Nycturne

fooferdoggie said:


> how times has this happened with trump? his lackey turns against him?



Can a Regan appointee truly be considered a lackey though? I’m sure Trump would like to think he is, because Trump thinks the GOP and anyone aligned with right wing politics is ”his guy”. 



lizkat said:


> I have trouble thinking that Cannon would go so far as to dismiss Dearie.    In his first public hearing, Dearie has only indicated his _*inclination*_ to withhold any documents with classified markings  from Trump team review if the Trump lawyers are not willing to affirm that there ARE docs there that Trump DID declassify.
> 
> Sure the remark memorandizes a catch-22 situation for Trump (not that the lawyers were unaware of it), but it was a perfectly logical remark for the circumstances and anyway as a remark --even if viewed as a warning shot across the bow-- it doesn't seem strong enough to justify a dismissal of a special master.    The consequent reaction from legal community would not likely do either Trump or Cannon any favors.



Agreed. And I’d even say that because Dearie is the pick from Trump’s side, there’s a stronger argument to be made that Trump’s lawyers shouldn’t get to call for dismissal either. You shouldn’t get to pick the special master _and_ then call for dismissal claiming bias. At least historically, judges tend to frown on lawyers playing those sort of games.


----------



## Cmaier

Breaking: 11th Circuit to Judge Cannon and Trump - “Um, Nope.”

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183-625b-da48-a3e3-e2ff83050000https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183-625b-da48-a3e3-e2ff83050000


----------



## Runs For Fun

Let the investigation continue!








						DOJ can resume criminal probe of classified documents from Mar-a-Lago, appeals court says — CNN Politics
					

A federal appeals court is allowing the Justice Department to continue looking at documents marked as classified that were seized from former President Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago home and resort.




					apple.news


----------



## shadow puppet

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1572735019902275586/


----------



## GermanSuplex

I’m enjoying reading the decision. 

_Plaintiff suggests that he may have declassified these docu- ments when he was President. But the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified. And before the special master, Plaintiff resisted providing any evidence that he had declas- sified any of these documents. See Doc. No. 97 at 2–3., Sept. 19, 2022, letter from James M. Trusty, et al., to Special Master Ray- mond J. Dearie, at 2–3. *In any event, at least for these purposes, the declassification argument is a red herring* because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it per- sonal. So even if we assumed that Plaintiff did declassify some or all of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them.
This factor—the Plaintiff’s personal interest (or lack thereof) in the documents—also weighs against exercising jurisdiction._

Looks like Judge Cannon is an exception, not the norm. Thank god. They rip her pretty well here too, in legalese.

I’m so glad they directly called his argument about declassification a red herring. That’s what it is, and it needed to be called that instead of looking for reasons to placate Trump. I’m willing to grant the judge the benefit of a doubt that maybe she just wanted this off her plate and to stay out of Trump’s warpath, but who knows.

Either way, this whole process won’t buy Trump much time.


----------



## ronntaylor

Cmaier said:


> Breaking: 11th Circuit to Judge Cannon and Trump - “Um, Nope.”
> 
> https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183-625b-da48-a3e3-e2ff83050000https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183-625b-da48-a3e3-e2ff83050000



I'm not Ice Cube, but between the NYS AG lawsuit & this ruling: Today was a good day!


----------



## GermanSuplex

We have heard many, many, MANY reports that there are many in the GOP who hate Trump, and say so amongst themselves.

I wonder if some of these conservative judges and other behind-the-scenes people of power aren’t actually 100% cheering for Trump’s downfall. That doesn’t mean they need to be corrupt or have a vendetta; the harshest thing they can do to Trump is to legitimately follow the laws, as they seem to be doing thus far, Judge Cannon aside.


----------



## lizkat

Was prowling around reading more newspapers' accounts of the 11th Circuit Court's decision...  ran into note about the panel's makeup in the NYT piece (paywall removed)



> The appellate panel consisted of two other Trump appointees, Judges Britt Grant and Andrew L. Brasher, and Judge Robin S. Rosenbaum, an Obama appointee.




So it's nice Trump can't lay it off on being biased because of source of appointments.  Two were his.


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> Was prowling around reading more newspapers' accounts of the 11th Circuit Court's decision...  ran into note about the panel's makeup in the NYT piece (paywall removed)
> 
> 
> 
> So it's nice Trump can't lay it off on being biased because of source of appointments.  Two were his.



that wont stop him and has not stopped him in the past.


----------



## Yoused

Meanwhile, some guy whose name is a synonym for drooling vegetable says that Individual-ONE can declassify documents through telekinesis









						Watch: Trump tells Sean Hannity he could declassify documents with his mind
					

Donald Trump on Wednesday argued that a president of the United States can declassify documents without speaking or writing a single word.Trump, fresh off a major defeat in the Mar-a-Lago documents case before the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, was interviewed on Fox News by Sean Hannity."You...




					www.rawstory.com
				






(with apologies to individuals in a persistent vegetative state)


----------



## Citysnaps

Yoused said:


> Meanwhile, some guy whose name is a synonym for drooling vegetable says that Individual-ONE can declassify documents through telekinesis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch: Trump tells Sean Hannity he could declassify documents with his mind
> 
> 
> Donald Trump on Wednesday argued that a president of the United States can declassify documents without speaking or writing a single word.Trump, fresh off a major defeat in the Mar-a-Lago documents case before the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, was interviewed on Fox News by Sean Hannity."You...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rawstory.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (with apologies to individuals in a persistent vegetative state)




Jeeeez...what a nut job.


----------



## Huntn

GermanSuplex said:


> I’m enjoying reading the decision.
> 
> _Plaintiff suggests that he may have declassified these docu- ments when he was President. But the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified. And before the special master, Plaintiff resisted providing any evidence that he had declas- sified any of these documents. See Doc. No. 97 at 2–3., Sept. 19, 2022, letter from James M. Trusty, et al., to Special Master Ray- mond J. Dearie, at 2–3. *In any event, at least for these purposes, the declassification argument is a red herring* because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it per- sonal. So even if we assumed that Plaintiff did declassify some or all of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them.
> This factor—the Plaintiff’s personal interest (or lack thereof) in the documents—also weighs against exercising jurisdiction._
> 
> Looks like Judge Cannon is an exception, not the norm. Thank god. They rip her pretty well here too, in legalese.
> 
> I’m so glad they directly called his argument about declassification a red herring. That’s what it is, and it needed to be called that instead of looking for reasons to placate Trump. I’m willing to grant the judge the benefit of a doubt that maybe she just wanted this off her plate and to stay out of Trump’s warpath, but who knows.
> 
> Either way, this whole process won’t buy Trump much time.



In Trump World, besides the atrocious stench, if he says it, it happened.


----------



## Huntn

Yoused said:


> Meanwhile, some guy whose name is a synonym for drooling vegetable says that Individual-ONE can declassify documents through telekinesis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch: Trump tells Sean Hannity he could declassify documents with his mind
> 
> 
> Donald Trump on Wednesday argued that a president of the United States can declassify documents without speaking or writing a single word.Trump, fresh off a major defeat in the Mar-a-Lago documents case before the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, was interviewed on Fox News by Sean Hannity."You...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rawstory.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (with apologies to individuals in a persistent vegetative state)



What a sick egotistical LOSER. So besides the obvious laugh, sober up that there are millions of little losers/suckers who would vote again for this POS.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

lizkat said:


> So it's nice Trump can't lay it off on being biased because of source of appointments.  Two were his.



He'll say "It's so unfair. They are RINO's. He'll say they are part of the deep state out to get him. He was misled by McConnell into nominating them. It's a terrible thing that's happening to the country right now. The country is being destroyed. Hillary's emails, Benghazi, Hunter's laptop, etc. ad nauseam." And he'll probably ask for more contributions to Stop the Steal.


----------



## lizkat

Citysnaps said:


> Jeeeez...what a nut job.





Huntn said:


> In Trump World, besides the atrocious stench, if he says it, it happened.




In at least 30k instances, Trump had said something but whatever it was had not happened as he presented it.  But hey,  what he said about using his mind to declassify documents, he said on Fox News, where facts are sometimes invented and otherwise often elusive or contextually misplaced.

Heh, imagine if people could make stuff happen by just thinking about it.  For all we know some form of being has already evolved to that point and the unfortunate results of that clash of energies are responsible for all the weird multidecimal constants we have to use to explain the physics of the universe we live in.   All just because two guys a long time ago --but very much like the former guy--  disagreed on whether to declassify or reclassify some purloined classified documents.


----------



## fooferdoggie

well 20.00 should cover the payment for the quality of lawyers willing to work for him now. If I were one I would make him pay for my lawyer up front before I started working for him


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

fooferdoggie said:


> well 20.00 should cover the payment for the quality of lawyers willing to work for him now. If I were one I would make him pay for my lawyer up front before I started working for him





I'd also insist that Trump pays for the lawyer's lawyer upfront because they're going to need one.


----------



## Alli

lizkat said:


> Imagine if this is the month Trump's physician finally told him to give up hamberders fries and diet cokes.



He would NEVER hire a physician that gave him such advice.


----------



## Renzatic

Alli said:


> He would NEVER hire a physician that gave him such advice.




Can't blame him. What kind of physician would recommend Diet Coke in the first place?

Coke Zero is so much better.


----------



## rdrr

Can't believe Sith Lord Trump thinks "The Force" really exists.

Also I know this doesn't quite fit in here, but hey...  Judge Cannon hooked her wagon up to that star.   I loved the point where the 3 Judge panel 11th Circuit Court decision flat out slapped her ass down.   I have heard that Judges especially appellant Judges don't like to overly criticized another Judge.  However this decision read like a complete "what were you thinking?" dope slap.   You can see it on page 17 "is reason enough to conclude that the district court abused its discretion in exercising equitable jurisdiction here."  

Wow!


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> Can't believe Sith Lord Trump thinks "The Force" really exists.
> 
> Also I know this doesn't quite fit in here, but hey...  Judge Cannon hooked her wagon up to that star.   I loved the point where the 3 Judge panel 11th Circuit Court decision flat out slapped her ass down.   I have heard that Judges especially appellant Judges don't like to overly criticized another Judge.  However this decision read like a complete "what were you thinking?" dope slap.   You can see it on page 17 "is reason enough to conclude that the district court abused its discretion in exercising equitable jurisdiction here."
> 
> Wow!




That opinion was quite plainly written and I really enjoyed reading it.  Not always the case and I'd more often describe the process of reading legal opinions as "plowing through" them.  This one just briskly went through the tests to be applied and checked them off one by one.  It can't be a great thrill for the defense to search for "Plaintiff did not"  [or equivalent sense] and come up with so many hits as in this ruling...

samples:



> Plaintiff has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. Nor has he established that the current administration has waived that requirement for these documents. And even if he had, that, in and of itself, would not explain why Plaintiff has an individual interest in the classified documents.
> 
> Plaintiff suggests that he may have declassified these documents when he was President. But the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified. And before the special master, Plaintiff resisted providing any evidence that he had declassified any of these documents. See Doc. No. 97 at 2–3., Sept. 19, 2022, letter from James M. Trusty, et al., to Special Master Raymond J. Dearie, at 2–3.
> 
> In any event, at least for these purposes, the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal. So even if we assumed that Plaintiff did declassify some or all of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them.
> 
> We cannot conclude that Plaintiff would be irreparably injured by a stay regarding the documents marked classified. Plaintiff suggests that he could be harmed by the disclosure of sensitive information. Doc. No. 84 at 8. But permitting the United States to retain the documents does not suggest that they will be released; indeed, a purpose of the United States’s efforts in investigating the recovered classified documents is to _limit _unauthorized disclosure of the information they contain. Not only that, but any authorized official who makes an improper disclosure risks her own criminal liability. See, e.g., 18 U.S.C. § 798. We also doubt that Plaintiff risks irreparable injury in the form of disclosure of privileged information; he has not, for example, asserted attorney-client privilege over any of the classified documents.


----------



## rdrr

I wish there was an EXACTLY! reaction.   Like and Love doesn't seem to quite fit.


----------



## Renzatic

rdrr said:


> I wish there was an EXACTLY! reaction.   Like and Love doesn't seem to quite fit.




We need a hug emote like they have over on Facebook!


----------



## lizkat

It gets better.  As of today per Washington Post piece (paywall removed)

*Dearie asks Trump lawyers whether they believe FBI lied about seized documents*



> The Mar-a-Lago special master on Thursday ordered Donald Trump’s lawyers to state in a court filing whether they believe FBI agents lied about documents seized from the former president’s Florida residence in a court-authorized search last month, or claimed to have taken items that were not actually in Trump’s possession.
> 
> In a Thursday afternoon filing, U.S. District Judge Raymond J. Dearie — the special master — told Trump’s legal team to state by Sept. 30 whether they believe any of the seized items were incorrectly described in the Justice Department’s 11-page inventory list, which said some of the documents were highly classified.
> 
> Dearie also told them to say whether they are claiming that any items on the inventory list were not in fact taken from the premises.




I really do hope these lawyers have lawyers.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I watch Hannity in his interview with Trump… How can Hannity sit there with a straight face? It’s something I’ve often wondered in these interviews. Most of the people who interview may be revolting, but they aren’t stupid. Hannity has to know this is a dumb man he’s interviewing, one who is giving ridiculous answers.

Even the Fox comments on the article about the Hannity interview are pretty scathing…

_I've been doing a lot of abstract painting lately, extremely abstract. No brush, no paint, no canvas, I just think about it.

_


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Oh snap.  Now the judge has ordered a list of exactly what Trump and his lawyers claim the FBI planted.  They may have to pull out the big guns and unleash Smigel Giuliani on the court.  This could potentially close the court for weeks while a hazmat team cleans all the body fluids off the walls and floor.


----------



## Renzatic

GermanSuplex said:


> I've been doing a lot of abstract painting lately, extremely abstract. No brush, no paint, no canvas, I just think about it.




To be fair...


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> I watch Hannity in his interview with Trump… How can Hannity sit there with a straight face? It’s something I’ve often wondered in these interviews. Most of the people who interview may be revolting, but they aren’t stupid. Hannity has to know this is a dumb man he’s interviewing, one who is giving ridiculous answers.
> 
> 
> 
> __



thats why they get paid the big bucks it takes al to of money to keep a straight face.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> Even the Fox comments on the article about the Hannity interview are pretty scathing.




It will get worse than embarrassing, they should stop interviewing him.  His aides or family or lawyers should persuade him to focus on his legal defense and tell him that that means "keep quiet until everything is settled."   Let them tell him he can win that way or something. TFG is going to come apart at the seams from how everything is falling away now.

The media need to quit helping his followers make a martyr of him. Just tell us the facts of his legal proceedings.  And if charged and found guilty, he needs to go to the slam so we all get it that he's not above the law.  I don't care if it's a nice Club Fed.  They're not as nice as they used to be anyway.



Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Oh snap.  Now the judge has ordered a list of exactly what Trump and his lawyers claim the FBI planted.  They may have to pull out the big guns and unleash Smigel Giuliani on the court.  This could potentially close the court for weeks while a hazmat team cleans all the body fluids off the walls and floor.




There's another basket case, oy.  Rudy makes it up on the fly and then says well it was something like that but more complicated and who remembers.     Dearie won't put up with extension of the games that some of Trrump's enablers and their lawyers have been trying to prolong.

Sometimes almost tempted to think that Trump's defense picked Dearie to bring this show to a close.

 Oh they'll defend Trump,  but these guys now are not Sidney Powell, they are lawyers cognizant of their careers, the implications of a former President behaving as Trump has behaved, the limits of wiggle room and the dangers of trying to exceed that, plus the odds against Trump being able to win any of this stuff on the merits.

Maybe they'll tell Trump to plead to having accidentally allowed removal of classified papers from the WH to Mar a Lago while he was so distracted trying to keep Biden from taking office.  Oh, wait...


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump saying that he could declassify things "just by thinking about it"... you have to admit, he has _some _reason to believe that. When he recklessly shared sensitive info with Russians and tweeted sensitive images, nobody stood up to him. So why wouldn't he think that? This is where you see the GOP's refusal to call him out during his tenure - indeed, defending his actions most of the time - leading us to where we are at.

Its a classic example of letting a child get away with everything, then they grow up to be criminals, because they never had discipline. In this case, the "child" is a geriatric old man and the parents are a bunch of slimy GOP weasels promoting their careers off his wave of popularity.


----------



## lizkat

Heh, Trump himself is the barrel of weasels.  He dressed up nice but it's all starting to show now.


​


----------



## Renzatic

lizkat said:


> Heh, Trump himself is the barrel of weasels.  He dressed up nice but it's all starting to show now.




The joke is funny, but what really sells it is the head weasel's earnest expression.


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> It gets better.  As of today per Washington Post piece (paywall removed)
> 
> *Dearie asks Trump lawyers whether they believe FBI lied about seized documents*
> 
> 
> 
> I really do hope these lawyers have lawyers.




Brisk!  And not fooling around.  Nice that trump's attorneys picked a judge who can issue orders.

DOJ attorneys must be ROFL and high-fiving right now.

Maybe even a few Nah Nah Ni Nah Nahs yelled in the direction of Mar a Lago and trump attorney offices.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Citysnaps said:


> Brisk!  And not fooling around.  Nice that trump's attorneys picked a judge who can issue orders.
> 
> DOJ attorneys must be ROFL and high-fiving right now.
> 
> Maybe even a few Nah Nah Ni Nah Nahs yelled in the direction of Mar a Lago and trump attorney offices.



well trump gets what he pays for in lawyers for sure.


----------



## Citysnaps

In related trump news regarding Jan6th:









						Exclusive: Trump's secret court fight to stop grand jury from getting information from his inner circle
					

Former President Donald Trump's attorneys are fighting a secret court battle to block a federal grand jury from gathering information from an expanding circle of close Trump aides about his efforts to overturn the 2020 election, people briefed on the matter told CNN.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Citysnaps said:


> In related trump news regarding Jan6th:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Trump's secret court fight to stop grand jury from getting information from his inner circle
> 
> 
> Former President Donald Trump's attorneys are fighting a secret court battle to block a federal grand jury from gathering information from an expanding circle of close Trump aides about his efforts to overturn the 2020 election, people briefed on the matter told CNN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com




This should serve as a warning to other elites.  It seems their tier of the legal system is suddenly allowing facts to be permissible in cases against them.   

But before they have to be faced with that injustice (to them) there's an even bigger lesson.  If you're involved in dubious business or political ventures you should probably STFU publicly.  Enjoy your ill-gotten gains in silence.  There's a good chance you will be ignored if you stick to STFU.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Citysnaps said:


> In related trump news regarding Jan6th:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Trump's secret court fight to stop grand jury from getting information from his inner circle
> 
> 
> Former President Donald Trump's attorneys are fighting a secret court battle to block a federal grand jury from gathering information from an expanding circle of close Trump aides about his efforts to overturn the 2020 election, people briefed on the matter told CNN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com



I swear trump will fight anything even if l;egally he cant. it's kinda pathetic really and makes him look so guilty.


----------



## Nycturne

It’s his tactic (and the tactic of many others). Fight everything, admit nothing.


----------



## lizkat

Citysnaps said:


> In related trump news regarding Jan6th:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Trump's secret court fight to stop grand jury from getting information from his inner circle
> 
> 
> Former President Donald Trump's attorneys are fighting a secret court battle to block a federal grand jury from gathering information from an expanding circle of close Trump aides about his efforts to overturn the 2020 election, people briefed on the matter told CNN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com



 So exasperating.   Privilege cannot apply if there is wrongdoing involved.  How could there not have been wrongdoing involved when court cases by the truckload went against Trump regarding election fraud,  and yet he was still talking to everyone but the man in the moon, still seeking some way to remain in office despite election results, despite results certification in all states, despite congressional counting of the electoral votes, despite even McConnell saying more than once (to get Trump's attention, I guess) that Biden had won and would be inaugurated on January 20.

 He knew he had lost and kept trying to find some way to unwind that and remain president. He didn't even make any bones about it then,  so not sure why all of a sudden any conversations he had that didn't happen to end up referenced in one of his unTruth antiSocial posts s/b regarded as privileged. 

Are we supposed to believe that he wants to claim executive privilege over some conversation that ran along lines of "_OK OK,  I know I lost,  I'm just trying to bust Joe Biden's chops until he's sworn in."_

Such a time wasting crock.  No one else in this country could get away with this extraordinary attempt to refute facts on the ground from so many different aides, election officials, judges (a lot of them Republican!).  Well anyway when the dust settles on Trump's assorted misadventures with the law,  no one will be able to say with a straight face that the guy didn't get due process.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I see Christina Bobb is now trying to make clear she’s not a lawyer for the Trump Case. That damn fake news! Can’t understand why anyone would think she was working on behalf of Trump…


----------



## Cmaier

LOL.

None of the e-discovery vendors are willing to be engaged by Trump.  I get calls from e-discovery vendors every day trying to do business with me.  These guys are desperate, and are used to getting paid on a very delayed basis (they send us a bill, thirty days later we send the bill to the client, the client sends us payment 90 days later, and only then do we pay the vendor).  

But even these guys know Trump is going to stiff them completely.


----------



## Cmaier

LOL #2: Apparently Trump is objecting to having to explain what kind of privilege each doc is entitled to.


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> LOL.
> 
> None of the e-discovery vendors are willing to be engaged by Trump.  I get calls from e-discovery vendors every day trying to do business with me.  These guys are desperate, and are used to getting paid on a very delayed basis (they send us a bill, thirty days later we send the bill to the client, the client sends us payment 90 days later, and only then do we pay the vendor).
> 
> But even these guys know Trump is going to stiff them completely.
> 
> View attachment 18063






Cmaier said:


> LOL #2: Apparently Trump is objecting to having to explain what kind of privilege each doc is entitled to.
> 
> View attachment 18065




Ugh, what a difficult client Trump must be.   His reputation precedes him unfavorably in so many aspects of any intersection with the law.

It's not just his impulsivity,  nor his corner-cutting nor careless and arrogant approaches to problem solving.  It's "everything" -- and not least the fact that he's so preoccupied by shoring up his own perception of himself that he can't focus on tasks set before him, even when actual self-preservation demands his attention.


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> Ugh, what a difficult client Trump must be.   His reputation precedes him unfavorably in so many aspects of any intersection with the law.



he is past that. he gets his lawyers to lie and break laws for him.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> he is past that. he gets his lawyers to lie and break laws for him.




I don't think the lawyers working on cases brought by the DoJ now and forward are going to go there...


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> I don't think the lawyers working on cases brought by the DoJ now and forward are going to go there...



don't count on it the idiot lady lawyer is still lying up a storm she sounds like a hard core trump supporter.


----------



## rdrr

Well TFG is back at it.   Trump's team has now claimed that Judge Dearie is going beyond his mandate by asking them to make the claim on record whether or not the FBI planted files.   And saying the timeline is too short to review the files.   

So he doesn't want to say on record because he needs to spew the lies to his base, and delay... delay... delay...  Let's see what that joke for a judge Cannon does.  My guess, side with Trump.

RawStory Link


----------



## fooferdoggie

rdrr said:


> Well TFG is back at it.   Trump's team has now claimed that Judge Dearie is going beyond his mandate by asking them to make the claim on record whether or not the FBI planted files.   And saying the timeline is too short to review the files.
> 
> So he doesn't want to say on record because he needs to spew the lies to his base, and delay... delay... delay...  Let's see what that joke for a judge Cannon does.  My guess, side with Trump.
> 
> RawStory Link



so he does not know what records and files he had but somehow knows they were planted? thats the argument? man trumps arguments are getting so pathetic they are going to start having to shop at walmart for better answers and lawyers.


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> Well TFG is back at it.   Trump's team has now claimed that Judge Dearie is going beyond his mandate by asking them to make the claim on record whether or not the FBI planted files.   And saying the timeline is too short to review the files.
> 
> So he doesn't want to say on record because he needs to spew the lies to his base, and delay... delay... delay...  Let's see what that joke for a judge Cannon does.  My guess, side with Trump.
> 
> RawStory Link




So damn tired of giving this _disgrazia_ of an ex-prez so much free space in my head.  Who cares what he wants  He asked for a special master and got one.  No one ever said there'd be a Diet Coke and a side of fries served up alongside it.

The sooner he lands in the dustbin of the history books (ones that few of his die-hard supporters wiil or could read anyway), the better.  Never in all my years, until the ascension of Trump,  had I ever imagined I could think so little of a person who managed to occupy the highest elective office in the United States of America.  

I wouldn't mind if the press just ran one-paragraph updates on Trump's legal troubles from here on out until he fades away.  It's not that I don't want justice served upon him.  I'd just like it to happen with about the same fanfare that the average citizen in some legal difficulty collects during experience of "all due process" of our rule of law.


----------



## rdrr

Sorry lizkat, but it looks like I will be updating this thread again with the latest events on this saga.   Please skip the lines below to reduce the Trump footprint in your thoughts. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just as expected "judge" Cannon ruled in favor of the orange menace and said he doesn't have to submit the affidavit until they review all the documents.   Which he has claimed cannot be done in the time set.   So it seems that this nightmare won't end and Cannon has turned the rule of law and order on its head again.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.125.0.pdf


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> Sorry lizkat, but it looks like I will be updating this thread again with the latest events on this saga. Please skip the lines below to reduce the Trump footprint in your thoughts.




Thanks for the laugh, I needed it.

As for the update, well as a news junkie I needed that too...  sigh...  so thanks again i guess


----------



## Cmaier

rdrr said:


> Sorry lizkat, but it looks like I will be updating this thread again with the latest events on this saga.   Please skip the lines below to reduce the Trump footprint in your thoughts.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Just as expected "judge" Cannon ruled in favor of the orange menace and said he doesn't have to submit the affidavit until they review all the documents.   Which he has claimed cannot be done in the time set.   So it seems that this nightmare won't end and Cannon has turned the rule of law and order on its head again.
> 
> https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.125.0.pdf




My prediction is that Dearie quits. he isn’t getting paid to do this, and he doesn’t need the headache.


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> My prediction is that Dearie quits. he isn’t getting paid to do this, and he doesn’t need the headache.




How do you view chance of Trump firing him?


----------



## rdrr

lizkat said:


> How do you view chance of Trump firing him?



Is it up to Trump or Cannon?   I believe the chances are better than good.

Is there a way to investigate a Federal Judge's phone/email contacts?   I am sure Trump and his team has been in communication with Cannon outside of official and legal lines.


----------



## Yoused

rdrr said:


> I am sure Trump and his team has been in communication with Cannon outside of official and legal lines.




If this could be proven, I believe it would be cause to have her disbarred and removed from the bench.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Why is the judge acting as a rubber stamp for the insane demands of the Trump legal team?

Imagine a killer getting a judge to tell the state they couldn’t use the legally obtained firearm they seized from the killer as evidence in court. Imagine a home invader successfully lobbying a judge to have detectives forbidden to go into the victim’s home to collect evidence - or a judge telling a family “Yeah, you can’t go back to your home because you may plant evidence to frame the person who broke in”.

This judge is doubling-down on stupid. Trump is getting everything he wants from her, none of which he is entitled to.


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> This judge is doubling-down on stupid. Trump is getting everything he wants from her, none of which he is entitled to.



stupid lawyers and judge combo typical trump employees.


----------



## rdrr

GermanSuplex said:


> Why is the judge acting as a rubber stamp for the insane demands of the Trump legal team?
> 
> Imagine a killer getting a judge to tell the state they couldn’t use the legally obtained firearm they seized from the killer as evidence in court. Imagine a home invader successfully lobbying a judge to have detectives forbidden to go into the victim’s home to collect evidence - or a judge telling a family “Yeah, you can’t go back to your home because you may plant evidence to frame the person who broke in”.
> 
> This judge is doubling-down on stupid. Trump is getting everything he wants from her, none of which he is entitled to.



The biggest problem with this ruling that I see, is that the DoJ cannot appeal it.   This is a ruling to limit the SM Dearie order, of put up or shut up.


----------



## lizkat

Biggest problem is, of course, Donald Trump himself.  His newest lawyer is probably ready to say so.

*Trump’s legal team divided over how to handle Mar-a-Lago case* (WaPo, paywall removed)

"New lawyer’s advice to seek an ‘off-ramp’ with Justice Department is not being heeded, people familiar with discussions say."

Yeah, imagine anyone's surprise...  Trump can't stop angling for whatever gets headlines.  Idiot.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I hope his only off-ramp leads to federal prison. He’ll probably break a few more laws in his effort to score a perceived win. Of course, anything less than prison will be seen by his supporters as “complete vindication”.


----------



## fooferdoggie




----------



## mac_in_tosh

Every day that this career criminal Trump doesn't get at least indicted makes a mockery of the U.S. justice system. Any ordinary person would already have been indicted for some if not all the things for which he is being investigated. But he's managed to avoid jail despite a life of possible sexual assault, grifting (misuse of funds), cheating (banks, insurance companies, taxes, contractors), incitement to insurrection, stealing of highly classified documents (violation of Espionage Act) and failing to comply with a subpoena to hand them over (obstruction), working with a foreign government to affect the 2016 election (collusion) and covering it up (obstruction) etc. Yet here he is playing golf almost every day and holding deranged rallies where he continues to spew lies and threaten violence while investigations plod on due to his seemingly endless stalling tactics that would not be available to the average person. He is a danger to the republic and needs to be stopped.


----------



## Citysnaps

mac_in_tosh said:


> Every day that this career criminal Trump doesn't get at least indicted makes a mockery of the U.S. justice system. Any ordinary person would already have been indicted for some if not all the things for which he is being investigated. But he's managed to avoid jail despite a life of possible sexual assault, grifting (misuse of funds), cheating (banks, insurance companies, taxes, contractors), incitement to insurrection, stealing of highly classified documents (violation of Espionage Act) and failing to comply with a subpoena to hand them over (obstruction), working with a foreign government to affect the 2016 election (collusion) and covering it up (obstruction) etc. Yet here he is playing golf almost every day and holding deranged rallies where he continues to spew lies and threaten violence while investigations plod on due to his seemingly endless stalling tactics that would not be available to the average person. He is a danger to the republic and needs to be stopped.




It's bewildering, isn't it? I'm hoping Garland/Willis will soon have some announcements. More news from James would be nice, too.


----------



## ronntaylor

Citysnaps said:


> It's bewildering, isn't it? I'm hoping Garland/Willis will soon have some announcements. More news from James would be nice, too.



I'm guessing that Garland is waiting for after the midterms, SOP for an election year. And James is probably finished with her investigations. The IRS and Manhattan DA have to do their jobs and bring charges like James did.


----------



## GermanSuplex

That was fast. Despite the Trumpian conservatives in the Supreme Court, I don’t see Trump winning. Allowing outgoing presidents to take whatever they want and declassifying documents “by thinking about it” is a bad standard to set, and even if permitted, what about the lying and obstruction?

Trump was wrong every step of the way here. I don’t see the court giving him much freedom here.


----------



## rdrr

GermanSuplex said:


> That was fast. Despite the Trumpian conservatives in the Supreme Court, I don’t see Trump winning. Allowing outgoing presidents to take whatever they want and declassifying documents “by thinking about it” is a bad standard to set, and even if permitted, what about the lying and obstruction?
> 
> Trump was wrong every step of the way here. I don’t see the court giving him much freedom here.




Couple of questions... I thought with the existing Appeal going on in the 11th Circuit, this has to wait?   Also didn't Cannon amend her order once she got dope slapped?   So there in essence isn't an order to restrict using the classified documents (That Trump claims were planted)?


----------



## GermanSuplex

rdrr said:


> Couple of questions... I thought with the existing Appeal going on in the 11th Circuit, this has to wait?   Also didn't Cannon amend her order once she got dope slapped?   So there in essence isn't an order to restrict using the classified documents (That Trump claims were planted)?




I dunno, just saw the news breaking this afternoon.









						Trump goes to Supreme Court over Mar-a-Lago search and seizure of documents — CNN Politics
					

Former President Donald Trump asked the Supreme Court on Tuesday to intervene in the dispute over materials marked as classified that the FBI seized from his Mar-a-Lago estate this summer.




					apple.news


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> I dunno, just saw the news breaking this afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump goes to Supreme Court over Mar-a-Lago search and seizure of documents — CNN Politics
> 
> 
> Former President Donald Trump asked the Supreme Court on Tuesday to intervene in the dispute over materials marked as classified that the FBI seized from his Mar-a-Lago estate this summer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



love how he skips the order others have to do it. I wonder if the request has spelling errors and made up laws?


----------



## rdrr

GermanSuplex said:


> I dunno, just saw the news breaking this afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump goes to Supreme Court over Mar-a-Lago search and seizure of documents — CNN Politics
> 
> 
> Former President Donald Trump asked the Supreme Court on Tuesday to intervene in the dispute over materials marked as classified that the FBI seized from his Mar-a-Lago estate this summer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



I should have done a shout out to Cmaier since he has more expertise with the law.  My fault it wasn't a question to all.


----------



## lizkat

Hmm,  surely not what Trump was hoping for.   Looks like "delay" is not the word of the day.









						U.S. court allows Justice Dept to fast-track appeal in Trump case
					

The court agreed to fast-track a legal challenge to a third-party review of most of the records seized by the FBI from Mar-a-Lago after prosecutors complained the process is hampering their investigation.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

He will appeal the appeal.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> He will appeal the appeal.



I would not be surprised.  Remember the Trump Baby Balloon?    Time to re-up!


​


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Trump lawyer Christina Bobb told the DOJ she doesn’t want to take the fall for Trump continuing to have government documents after she certified he didn’t. By the time Trump gets indicted the court will have to assign him a free public defender because no lawyer will be left willing to risk the probable damage to their reputation, law license, and freedom.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Trump lawyer Christina Bobb told the DOJ she doesn’t want to take the fall for Trump continuing to have government documents after she certified he didn’t. By the time Trump gets indicted the court will have to assign him a free public defender because no lawyer will be left willing to risk the probable damage to their reputation, law license, and freedom.




Unfortunately by then this country will probably have elected a raft of mini-Trumps currently running for seats in the House.   Who knows how much mischief they can summon up if they are still facing a blue Senate and WH...   but the Congressional Record may end up littered with frivolous go-nowhere impeachments of Joe Biden. 

The most enduring problem with the far right end of the Trump wing of the GOP is that once seated in the House, they don't give a rat's hindquarters if they make a spectacle of themselves while fulfilling their aim of making the federal government look and act like a useless circus.


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> The most enduring problem with the far right end of the Trump wing of the GOP is that once seated in the House, they don't give a rat's hindquarters if they make a spectacle of themselves while fulfilling their aim of making the federal government look and act like a useless circus.



they don't care now. just look at what the candidates are saying. Trump set the bar so low and got rewarded for it that now his zealots can say anything and still get elected. I swear somone could ahve sex with a young minor knock them up and as long as they made sure she did not get an abortion they would elect them.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

fooferdoggie said:


> they don't care now. just look at what the candidates are saying. Trump set the bar so low and got rewarded for it that now his zealots can say anything and still get elected. I swear somone could ahve sex with a young minor knock them up and as long as they made sure she did not get an abortion they would elect them.




Or just say they found Jesus 10 minutes later and all is forgiven.


----------



## Edd

fooferdoggie said:


> they don't care now. just look at what the candidates are saying. Trump set the bar so low and got rewarded for it that now his zealots can say anything and still get elected. I swear somone could ahve sex with a young minor knock them up and as long as they made sure she did not get an abortion they would elect them.



Isn’t Herschel Walker being forgiven for an abortion? I think the true unpardonable sin for the GOP is working with a Democrat or supporting any single thing a Dem says ever.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> they don't care now. just look at what the candidates are saying. Trump set the bar so low and got rewarded for it that now his zealots can say anything and still get elected. I swear somone could ahve sex with a young minor knock them up and as long as they made sure she did not get an abortion they would elect them.




Yep.  It's Trump's "could shoot someone on Fifth Ave etc" motif taken even farther, and apparently no scandal would sway opinion of most right-leaning voters.  This despite cognitive dissonance with the Q-Anon fetish about pedophiles and so forth.    I start wanting to be unconscious for the last run here to the elections.  Or collecting bits of satire to cheer me up.   I liked this one...




​


----------



## fooferdoggie

Edd said:


> Isn’t Herschel Walker being forgiven for an abortion? I think the true unpardonable sin for the GOP is working with a Democrat or supporting any single thing a Dem says ever.



and not being a farther to his three kids holding a gun to his girlfriends head. lying about being a cop and other officials.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> and not being a farther to his three kids holding a gun to his girlfriends head. lying about being a cop and other officials.




And lying about his business experience, big time.  Walker doesn't just exaggerate...









						Walker’s Christian fans unfazed by abortion revelations
					

The anti-abortion GOP Senate nominee's supporters say they care more about his policies than about his behavior.




					www.politico.com
				






> Bulloch said she tends to vote conservative, but like many young women, has a more liberal view when it comes to abortion rights. Walker’s apparent inconsistency on abortion, though, was less of a concern to Bulloch than t*elevision ads she has seen alleging he misrepresented his business success and claiming he worked in law enforcement.*
> 
> “It was 2009, it was a long time ago. His views can change,” Bulloch said of the alleged abortion. “*But it bothers me that he lies. He seems like he lies a lot*.”




Hmm.  That voter should likely have thought about consequence of voting for liars back aways...

This guy Herschel Walker, if elected to the US Senate,  is not capable of being more than a walking puppet for whatever K street wants most from the Republicans between 2023 and 2028.  And that's assuming Walker doesn't get himself into personal or medical trouble in the meantime.

What ticks me off the most about the GOP's bans on abortion is their painting of political opposition as "pro abortion".   The Democrats are pro choice.  They want the decision left as it should be, a health matter left to physicians and a woman or couple. 

The negative implications of a national ban on abortions are myriad, as are some of the results already occurring in states with draconian anti-abortion laws: 

Brain drain of physicians, especially ob/gyn specialists, not to mention their medical assistants.​​Corporations starting to look around for a state they could move their headquarters to, in order to try to stave off employee lawsuits over insurance coverage changes.​​Universities wondering if they can attract the level of academic instruction --maybe especially young PhD candidates with teaching posts-- that they have relied on in the past to supplement full professorships. How to keep bright high school kids from looking to go to college out of state despite extra expenses.  How to keep state university doors open.​​Law enforcement wondering exactly what their mandate really is, or might be, and what are the consequences of their misunderstanding the law or the situation when some citizen decides to sue either because of a particular abortion or because one was not made available.   Next up:  who the heck wants to be the AG or maybe even a city's District Attorney in such a state?​​State political parties wondering how to attract competent candidates for public office in metro areas and mid-size municipalities. The downspill of an exodus from any state hits public offices quickly.  Why?  Because candidates are looking for a slot that will boost their resumé.  What are the chances there, when anyone with the ability to join a statewide brain drain has already done that...  so who's left?  Voters ready to sue, recall, vote out of office at the drop of a hat when anything in their life goes wrong, that's who. That's already true,  but the landscape of possible "things going wrong" is vastly expanded when expertise picks up stakes and leaves en masse.​​Finally: an increased tolerance for corruption.   When a law becomes too burdensome,  lawbreaking becomes more popular.  So do attempts to get the right people to look the other way at convenient moments.  Look for more cases of corruption in both law enforcement and medicine if there's a national ban on abortion.  You can buy an illegal abortion,  so why not buy a kidney transplant by jumping the line and snagging a kidney before it's your turn?  If you can get the DA not to charge a doctor for privately finishing a botched DIY abortion in his office,  maybe can also get the DA not to charge for a hit-and-run that killed a two-year-old?   Maybe because you know he didn't charge a few doctors for performing a few abortions... ?  All kinds of lessons wait to be learned from workarounds to a national ban on abortion.   Most will be ugly.​
ALL OF THESE ISSUES affect quality of life for everyone in any state that passes abortion bans.  This even for old men, infants, and everyone in between without a need for or thought of abortion.

And if the Rs manage to pass a national ban?    Well for emergency medical attention, good luck. For medicated terminations gone bad, likewise.  For those who should have used better birth control, it's back to pre-1973 back alley fixes, or sneaking off once again to Dr. FeelGood on Park Ave, who for a special price can provide a clinically sterile if not necessarily expert abortion.

All this from Republicans meanwhile talking up personal freedom.  Do they ever hear themselves?

I wish the Georgia Republicans with even a shred of personal integrity would stand up and say enough already, and disavow Walker right now. That's not going to happen though,  and so I hope instead that Georgia Democrats turn out to re-elect Raphael Warnock by a majority of hundreds of thousands.  So to end Herschel Walker's pathetic post-football career as no more than the pathetic pawn of Trump and a bunch of cynical "pro-Trump" Republicans.


----------



## fooferdoggie

if democrats want it all they need to just lie and say they are against abortion. instant majority.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> if democrats want it all they need to just lie and say they are against abortion. instant majority.




Hah, that is essentially what Trump did ahead of his 2016 campaign.   He didn't even really know a platform on abortion existed for either party until Bannon pointed it out to him and said Trump might have a problem, since he had given money to both parties and it was necessary to be anti-abortion to succeed as a Republican.   OK OK Trump had said, so I'm against abortion right now, no problem. And everybody in NY gives money to both parties so again no problem... 

But see "democrats" are not Donald Trump.   He pegged his 2016 campaign on his TV celebrity, and the USA promptly reaped the first really terrible harvest of having sowed the seeds for it during sixty-five years of becoming a celebrity-obsessed nation. 

Sure, name recognition was always a thing in our politics.  But the names we used to recognize were those of governors or senators.   In 1996 we added on "and the occasional highly successful if weird businessman" in the form of one Ross Perot.   After that it was only a matter of time until some other businessman would throw a serious hat in the ring and Trump in fact did make a few earlier attempts.  In 2016 finally came another distinctly populist year and he struck gold in them thar hills.  Everybody out there knew the Trump of reality TV.

Far fewer understood what he was (and still is, only worse),  and how appalling his candidacy would be, never mind his presidency.  But on balance it appears that those who voted for Trump the celebrity would do it all again even after evidence that he has not served their interests.  Even worse they now extend their gullibility into support of the candidates that Trump endorses.


----------



## lizkat

The court battles regarding Mar-a-Lago documents roll on...  now it's DoJ asking SCOTUS not to get involved in Trump's latest bid to get the docs that are marked as classified back in the hand of the special master. 









						DOJ to SCOTUS: Steer clear of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago case appeal
					

It is the latest in a winding legal drama that will likely carry on for months.




					www.politico.com
				






> “Applicant has never represented in any of his multiple legal filings in multiple courts that he in fact declassified any documents — much less supported such a representation with competent evidence,” Prelogar wrote in the 32-page brief.
> 
> Trump has repeatedly, and publicly, claimed to have declassified all of the items seized by the FBI that bear classification markings — including some which characterize the records as among the most sensitive, closely held secrets the government possesses. But his lawyers have repeatedly refused to echo those claims, saying they don’t want to commit themselves to possible defense theories like declassification before a potential indictment.
> 
> In several rounds of legal filings and oral argument — including Trump’s application to the Supreme Court last week — the former president’s attorneys have decidedly avoided the issue, saying only that Trump’s access to the records remains absolute, “whether classified or declassified.”






> Trump’s bid for Supreme Court relief did not seek to restore the ban Cannon initially imposed on investigators accessing the documents with classified markings.
> 
> Trump’s request to the Supreme Court and the Justice Department’s response were technically submitted to Justice Clarence Thomas, because he oversees the 11th Circuit, which includes Florida. However, in high-profile cases, the individual justices almost always refer requests for emergency relief to the full court.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

lizkat said:


> The court battles regarding Mar-a-Lago documents roll on...  now it's DoJ asking SCOTUS not to get involved in Trump's latest bid to get the docs that are marked as classified back in the hand of the special master.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DOJ to SCOTUS: Steer clear of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago case appeal
> 
> 
> It is the latest in a winding legal drama that will likely carry on for months.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com




I think the Supreme Court did some minimal soul searching after their Roe v Wade decision.  They had their head so far up the federalist society’s ass for so long I think they were honestly shocked at the backlash they received, their refusal to hear the fetus personhood case is proof of that. They know they are on shaky ground with a volatile country.  So who knows.  They might decide to stay out of this one too in an effort to claw back some credibility.  

As I recently heard, with every regressive Christian crusade decision they make the more the numbers swell against them and nobody can do anything about the changing demogrpahics that put them on the wrong side of history.  So either they can get their shit straight or accept their legacy as villains and enemies of the people.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> They might decide to stay out of this one too in an effort to claw back some credibility.




I hope you are right.  They need to not help this guy Trump drag out his appearance of having "executive powers".  It's lost on most of his followers that he's just a guy in citizen clothes now.

His lawyers are unsure how far they can press a privilege claim considering the specifics of this situation with classified or otherwise restricted data taken by Trump to Mar a Lago as he packed up stuff to leave the White House at end of his presidency.  He had been warned by his own counsel and aides not to take stuff he took.

The whole thing just stinks.  Pretty sure the Roberts would like his court not to have to weigh in on anything to do with this ex President ever again.  They are in enough trouble having chosen to overturn Roe v Wade.

Trump of course sees everything through the lens of how will it play with his base.   Supreme Court?  Bring it!


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

If this (or any of the multiple cases being investigated) goes to court get ready for the defense and Trump supporters to attack the character and past of prosecution witnesses.   Meanwhile Herschel Walker could add curb stomping toddlers to his already long list of sane people disqualifiers and they’d not see what the big deal is and still vote for him.


----------



## fooferdoggie

the latest
Trump Aide Reportedly Caught On Security Camera Moving Boxes At Mar-A-Lago—After DOJ Subpoena To Return Classified Documents​https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladi...-return-classified-documents/?sh=59b2b39a167d


----------



## GermanSuplex

Supreme Court has declined Trump team's request to intervene in the documents case - meaning the Special Master will not be able to review the classified documents (being a decent judge, he didn't want to anyways).

This essentially renders the special master case mostly useless. It was a time-buying ploy from the beginning, and that's all it is now.









						Supreme Court rejects former President Donald Trump's request to intervene in Mar-a-Lago documents fight | CNN Politics
					

The Supreme Court on Thursday rejected an emergency request from former President Donald Trump to intervene in the dispute over classified documents seized from his Mar-a-Lago estate in August.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> Supreme Court has declined Trump team's request to intervene in the documents case - meaning the Special Master will not be able to review the classified documents (being a decent judge, he didn't want to anyways).
> 
> This essentially renders the special master case mostly useless. It was a time-buying ploy from the beginning, and that's all it is now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supreme Court rejects former President Donald Trump's request to intervene in Mar-a-Lago documents fight | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> The Supreme Court on Thursday rejected an emergency request from former President Donald Trump to intervene in the dispute over classified documents seized from his Mar-a-Lago estate in August.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com



right in the nuts trumps poor attemps to delay get a kick. can you imagine one of trumps lawyers attempting to argue this with such judges? I don't think the trump worship would go over well.


----------



## GermanSuplex

fooferdoggie said:


> right in the nuts trumps poor attemps to delay get a kick. can you imagine one of trumps lawyers attempting to argue this with such judges? I don't think the trump worship would go over well.




Trump's filings are borderline criminal themselves. He's absolutely entitled to whatever he's entitled to under the law, but at some point, it makes a joke of our legal system and I'm surprised more judges don't treat he and his lawyers that way. That has actually happened a few times though, especially in the January 6 lawsuits that Rudy and Powell were filing on his behalf.

It's water circling the drain at this point. It's almost like the climax to a movie where the protagonist is also the antagonist. Kinda like towards the end of Breaking Bad. Trump has gotten away with a lot for a long time, and entering politics and having a third of the country worship him and having people from trailer parks all the way up to political leaders themselves defending everything he did only perpetuated the myth in his own head that he is invisible and what he says is absolute fact. No matter how much it may seem that way - and it does - it's not reality.

It's all coming down on him rather quickly at this point. The government is pretty much full-on with its investigation, and probably has been ever since Judge Cannon's decision was appealed. They have the classified documents and they probably have a lot of other stuff Trump doesn't even know about. And just remember - a special master who act's impartial isn't there just to give everything back to Trump. He's there to give Trump back what he's entitled to. Evidence of fruits of other crimes or in support of what's being investigated will not be returned to Trump except for in strict circumstances. The only win for him thus far is his ability to delay, but the quicker you go to the Supreme Court, the faster you run out of options. I expect the pace to pick up quickly after the midterms.


----------



## Yoused

GermanSuplex said:


> … the myth in his own head that he is *invisible* and what he says is absolute …




I am guessing you meant "invincible".

I am hoping that today's hearing gets a _*lot*_ of air, because it really _really_ paints him up in a bad light and depicts the assault on the Capitol horrifically. I could barely stand to listen to it.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I noticed in some other countries when somebody is on trial they make them sit in a glass-enclosed box. They should make Trump sit in a playpen.


----------



## Alli

The goal now is to get TFG in front of the committee to testify. We know he will try his usual delay tactics. If he refuses, he needs the Bannon treatment so that he’ll have (yet another) court in which he must testify or go directly to jail. (Speaking of Bannon, I am SO looking forward to his sentencing and jailing!)


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Trump started “Trump Organization II” on same day as NY fraud lawsuit
					

Letitia James concerned Trump may try to transfer assets ahead of possible punishment in $250 million fraud case.




					www.salon.com
				




Trump Organization II.  What a breathtaking sophisticated enigma.  They'll never figure it out!


----------



## Alli

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Trump started “Trump Organization II” on same day as NY fraud lawsuit
> 
> 
> Letitia James concerned Trump may try to transfer assets ahead of possible punishment in $250 million fraud case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.salon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump Organization II.  What a breathtaking sophisticated enigma.  They'll never figure it out!



And the DA is already filing charges since he was specifically charged to not run any other companies without supervision.

I figure it’s the same reason he buried Ivana at his golf course.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Alli said:


> And the DA is already filing charges since he was specifically charged to not run any other companies without supervision.
> 
> I figure it’s the same reason he buried Ivana at his golf course.




I look forward to Trump's next book, Art of the Multi-level Catastrophic Failure.  Chapter One:  Always Be Three Steps Behind Your Adversary.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I look forward to Trump's next book, Art of the Multi-level Catastrophic Failure.  Chapter One:  Always Be Three Steps Behind Your Adversary.




Trump's counsel:  "We _never_ said just pull the ripcord.  Who even ever told you there was a parachute?"






[photo credit:  Carl Bovis]


----------



## Cmaier

DoJ filing:



			https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rw6h7JXpLdKs/v0


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> DoJ filing:
> 
> 
> 
> https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rw6h7JXpLdKs/v0




Some serious bluff-calling starting to amble down this here road of Trump's attempts to dodge legal perdition by way of insinuation and procrastination....



> The records recovered by the government during the August 8 search that bear classification markings are the very records that Plaintiff was required to produce on June 3, and over which he raised no claim of executive privilege. Having failed to produce documents responsive to a lawful grand-jury subpoena, Plaintiff should not be rewarded with an opportunity to further delay the government’s investigation by interposing such privilege claims now. Cf. Ramirez v. Collier, 142 S. Ct. 1264, 1282 (2022) (“When a party seeking equitable relief ‘has violated conscience, or good faith, or other equitable principle, in his prior conduct, then the doors of the court will be shut against him.’” (quoting Keystone Driller Co. v. General Excavator Co., 290 U.S. 240, 245 (1933))).





and



> Among other things, the records’ classification status—including whether they were declassified and in what circumstances—would be an important consideration in assessing whether they contain “national defense information” within the meaning of Section 793. See, e.g., _United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908, 918 n.9_ (4th Cir. 1980) (noting relevance of classification status). And even if they had been declassified, the records could still be evidence of obstruction of justice because the grand-jury subpoena sought evidence of all records that were _marked_ as classified. Moreover, if any records were actually declassified, the government would have an additional compelling need to understand which formerly classified records had been declassified, why, and how, in order to evaluate the effects of any such declassification, including on the protection of intelligence sources and methods and on the classification status of related records or information.




and



> It was Plaintiff’s burden to establish a possessory interest in the seized records when he brought this suit, and he cannot rely on threadbare insinuations to establish yet another “dispute” that must be adjudicated before a special master. Further, Plaintiff plainly would not be entitled to the return of evidence solely on the ground that the evidence belonged to him when it was seized. If that were the case, evidence rooms nationwide would soon be emptied.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The problem is, with each argument Trump makes, the more he implicates himself. These convoluted arguments are a waste of court time and I’m surprised they haven’t already reprimanded his counsel for trying to create fake arguments in a vain effort to find a loophole.

At some point, he not only loses these arguments and attempts at stonewalling in court, but he also is in a sense “speaking” by doing so. He should remain silent and let his lawyers work the case, but he hires complicit yes-men hacks, green lawyers unqualified for a case of this magnitude and a client likely to sink the whole ship. If he’s arguing these are his documents or that he’s entitled to them, he’s admitted to taking them. That’s a crime, period. They are not his and he is not entitled to them, and obstructing and lying isn’t going to help him at all.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> The problem is, with each argument Trump makes, the more he implicates himself. These convoluted arguments are a waste of court time and I’m surprised they haven’t already reprimanded his counsel for trying to create fake arguments in a vain effort to find a loophole.
> 
> At some point, he not only loses these arguments and attempts at stonewalling in court, but he also is in a sense “speaking” by doing so. He should remain silent and let his lawyers work the case, but he hires complicit yes-men hacks, green lawyers unqualified for a case of this magnitude and a client likely to sink the whole ship. If he’s arguing these are his documents or that he’s entitled to them, he’s admitted to taking them. That’s a crime, period. They are not his and he is not entitled to them, and obstructing and lying isn’t going to help him at all.




I think the government may be fixin' to get Judge Cannon reprimanded for ever having issued any part of her original ruling.  On their way to getting the whole thing gone.

You're right that Trump is wasting their time.   He's in so deep now that the government is citing stuff from cases they won against Richard Nixon --  and Nixon was still a _sitting President_ at the time.

Trump is either too desperate or too stupid to realize that putting up arguments about crap like executive privileges after he lacks related standing is just asking for at least an obstruction of justice charge. 

His earlier counsel latched on to some of the executive privilege questions because they may remain somewhat untested,  regarding post-WH status and former presidents wanting to hold back certain notes or documents, but the idiots didn't consider what kind of documents they were talking about.   

As the latest government filing asserts, there are situations where no question of privilege could possibly take precedence over the government's retention of seized material, particularly where the issue was Trump's very possession of such documents at all, once having departed office, and especially after he had been subpoenaed for them and had even asserted he had returned stuff when that was not true.  

We're not talking about sarcastic _thank you for the nice evening_ notes from Angela Merkel or such, e.g. the kind of thing that some historians love to find in National Archive records and that presidents might prefer just to hang onto as souvenirs.

The documents marked classified had been identified as stratosphere-level and restricted-distribution, with zero reason for a former president to have exported them... and probably even less reason even to have thought about declassifying them.  The government wants to go through them for any _patterns_ in their content or type-- so they can maybe clarify how much and what kind of jeopardy this guy Trump may have created for the USA. 

 I hope the DoJ sticks it to him.   I'm all for due process but not for this level of horsefeathers.


----------



## GermanSuplex

It’s the fact that the documents are not his which is what makes the legal hoops the rightful owners have to jump through insane.

At some point, the courts are going to have to concur that this stalling process is cyclical; a thief can’t and shouldn’t be able to argue the items they stole can’t be used against them, and should even be returned to them! That just makes no sense and that’s essentially what Trump is aiming for.

Do you know how many drug dealers are in prison right now who would love to have been able to successfully argue a third-party should search the drugs, or the court should immediately demand the prosecution return the drugs to them?

The courts should lean on the fact that government documents belong to the government irrespective of their classification. The documents are quite simply either the property of the archives or they aren’t. One of these judges needs to call Trump’s attorneys out and make them answer simple questions or risk being reprimanded. 

Like a thief stealing your car with the title in it, and the thief gets the judge to ban you from getting your documents proving the car is yours from the car itself.


----------



## rdrr

I guess we are at the throw it against the wall and see if it sticks stage in this saga.   Or maybe we have passed that into the absolute absurdity stage.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1573492616510980118/


----------



## Yoused

He uses the word "insane" quite a lot. That must mean something.


----------



## Alli

rdrr said:


> I guess we are at the throw it against the wall and see if it sticks stage in this saga.   Or maybe we have passed that into the absolute absurdity stage.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1573492616510980118/



He’s been saying for years now that he has proof of this, that, or the other, but never manages to show said proof. The problem, of course, is that his fans don’t need proof. They will swallow anything.


----------



## Citysnaps

Alli said:


> He’s been saying for years now that he has proof of this, that, or the other, but never manages to show said proof. The problem, of course, is that his fans don’t need proof. *They will swallow anything.*




It's whenever trump makes a false claim, immediately followed by his "_...you know it's true._" that somehow puts a spell on his followers.


----------



## thekev

lizkat said:


> I think the government may be fixin' to get Judge Cannon reprimanded for ever having issued any part of her original ruling.  On their way to getting the whole thing gone.




Disbarred would be better.


----------



## Yoused

thekev said:


> Disbarred would be better.




Problem is, she is a federal judge. You can disbar her up one side and down the other, but the bar association has no hand on her gavel: she will still be a judge, unless somehow Congress sees fit to oust her.


----------



## thekev

Yoused said:


> Problem is, she is a federal judge. You can disbar her up one side and down the other, but the bar association has no hand on her gavel: she will still be a judge, unless somehow Congress sees fit to oust her.




I get that. I wrote it a bit quickly on my way out. The underlying sentiment is that federal judgeships are a terrible place for cronyism.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I think one of the biggest absurdities in this situation is watching Trump and his lawyers for months inventing different excuses for how or why he had the documents.   If you shot and killed somebody you wouldn’t be allowed to come up with different reasons that get rejected until you come up with one that works in your favor.  Not to mention, Trump isn’t a deep thinker.  Even if they find some obscure convoluted excuse there’s no way in Hell he was aware of it and that doesn’t take months to come up with.  

More chapters from Trump’s upcoming book, Art of the Multilevel Catastrophic Failure.

Chapter 2: Efficiently keep your enemies close by being your own worst enemy.  

Chapter 3: Stay on the radar by refusing to STFU.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I think one of the biggest absurdities in this situation is watching Trump and his lawyers for months inventing different excuses for how or why he had the documents.



There's still one he hasn't used yet - he had written permission from the National Archives to keep the documents but the dog ate it.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

mac_in_tosh said:


> There's still one he hasn't used yet - he had written permission from the National Archives to keep the documents but the dog ate it.




Or maybe he could say the deep state and Soros are so powerful that they are having him commit crimes he has no control over.


----------



## fooferdoggie

mac_in_tosh said:


> There's still one he hasn't used yet - he had written permission from the National Archives to keep the documents but the dog ate it.



no Rudy ate it.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> no Rudy ate it.




One does have to wonder why Trump keeps letting Rudy back into his inner circle of stooges.

I mean Giuliani's behavior in Ukraine hadn't done The Don any favors when it came to the first impeachment, and his behavior w/ respect to the 2020 election results has only complemented Trump's own legal issues regarding the attempt to overturn a US Presidential election.​​It's like he's a combination of court jester and fifth column, but for what or whom, who the heck knows.  I'd say Russia, if it weren't for doubting that Putin's FSB would regard Rudy as a reliable asset.  He's just....  off his rocker.​
Such insanity. So unseemly.  I didn't care for how Giuliani tried to steer NYC policy when he was mayor,  but it sure has been a long way down for him since then and especially compared to his days as a respected prosecutor.  He's a walking example of how power can corrupt someone not paying enough attention to the character of the people around him.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Or maybe he could say the deep state and Soros are so powerful that they are having him commit crimes he has no control over.




Would make a nice lead-in to Trump's next solicitation of funds from his hard core base.

_Pitch in a hundred bucks now to help ensure that George Soros and the deep state get rooted out of US government when Trump returns to power! _​
Should net Trump enough to cover another couple weeks' worth of counsel for his legal woes.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

“They’re closing in”: Experts say DOJ may “force” Trump aide to testify after he pleads the Fifth | Salon.com

In yet another scenario the founders didn’t foresee coming it looks like the government might have to tighten up another loophole to include “Declassifying documents must have witnesses that aren’t just the guy who brings you diet Coke”.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> “They’re closing in”: Experts say DOJ may “force” Trump aide to testify after he pleads the Fifth | Salon.com
> 
> In yet another scenario the founders didn’t foresee coming it looks like the government might have to tighten up another loophole to include “Declassifying documents must have witnesses that aren’t just the guy who brings you diet Coke”.



do what trump reccomends toss them in prision so they can be raped so they will talk.


----------



## lizkat

The beat goes on...  Washington Post piece  (paywall removed) reports on a new prosecutor added to the team looking into the case of the documents Trump took to Mar a Lago.  He is a national security prosecutor who took on cases against 9/11 and 1998 terrorism perpetrators who wound up with life sentences.

Top national security prosecutor joins Trump Mar-a-Lago investigation



> David Raskin, who served for many years as a senior federal prosecutor in New York City, and more recently has worked as a prosecutor in Kansas City, Mo., has been assisting in the investigation into Trump and his aides, according to the people familiar with the matter who, like others interviewed for this article, spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe an ongoing investigation.






> Just two weeks ago, Raskin won a guilty plea in a case with parallels to the Trump case — a former FBI analyst in Kansas City who authorities say took more than 300 classified files or documents to her home, including highly sensitive material about al-Qaeda and an associate of Osama bin Laden.
> 
> In court papers, federal prosecutors say they have recovered a similar number of documents with a variety of classified markings from Mar-a-Lago, all apparently taken from the White House. The Post has previously reported that some of that classified material was highly sensitive and restricted intelligence that included at least one document about Iran’s missile program and others about intelligence-gathering work aimed at China, according to people familiar with the matter.


----------



## rdrr

If true, how will TFG explain this?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592004218604355586/


----------



## GermanSuplex

rdrr said:


> If true, how will TFG explain this?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592004218604355586/




Trump never sticks to a narrative, so he will just say he had absolute right to have the documents.

His arguments are never rooted in truth, and he’s avoided prosecution because everyone is trying to suss out how to deal with a sitting/former president who breaks so many laws, ethics and norms.

Hopefully Garland straightens some of that out.


----------



## lizkat

Here we go. More 11th circuit popcorn-a-rama later in the week...  think TFG's lawyers have lawyers?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592172467057225729/


----------



## rdrr

lizkat said:


> Here we go. More 11th circuit popcorn-a-rama later in the week...  think TFG's lawyers have lawyers?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592172467057225729/



With that claim that they were personal documents, why did he ever have to use his jedi tricks and declassify them.  I am confused now...


----------



## rdrr

> “The law is clear,” the appeals court wrote. “We cannot write a rule that allows any subject of a search warrant to block government investigations after the execution of the warrant. Nor can we write a rule that allows only former presidents to do so.”
> 
> The 11th Circuit said that either approach would be a “radical reordering of our caselaw limiting the federal courts’ involvement in criminal investigations” and that “both would violate bedrock separation-of-powers limitations.”




Well that seems to be a clear admonishment to "Judge" Cannon.


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> Well that seems to be a clear admonishment to "Judge" Cannon.




Meanwhile Trump had to pay for the special master and also the extra lawyer with a top security clearance to review the portion of the stolen documents that were marked classified (at  $500 an hour) until the whole thing got hung up in court. And the whole process Cannon had approved was all supposed to have ended by yesterday,  under the original order.  What a mess.   Trump will probably sue to recover (or else not pay)  whatever the costs have been.   More mess...


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> Meanwhile Trump had to pay for the special master and also the extra lawyer with a top security clearance to review the portion of the stolen documents that were marked classified (at  $500 an hour) until the whole thing got hung up in court. And the whole process Cannon had approved was all supposed to have ended by yesterday,  under the original order.  What a mess.   Trump will probably sue to recover (or else not pay)  whatever the costs have been.   More mess...



he wont pay he never does. who knows how many lawyers he as stiffed since president. we only know is a Guinness world record


----------



## rdrr

With all the reports of non-payment by Trump, they would have been smart to set up an escrow account with a good estimate of the budget needed.  That way they could ensure that they get paid, with agreed upon payments for work performed.


----------



## Eric

Impeach Aileen Cannon calls grow as Trump judge "eviscerated" by court
					

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit reversed Cannon's decision to appoint a special master in the Mar-a-Lago documents case.




					www.newsweek.com
				




Impeach Aileen Cannon Calls Grow as Trump Judge 'Eviscerated' by Court​


----------



## rdrr

Eric said:


> Impeach Aileen Cannon calls grow as Trump judge "eviscerated" by court
> 
> 
> The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit reversed Cannon's decision to appoint a special master in the Mar-a-Lago documents case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Impeach Aileen Cannon Calls Grow as Trump Judge 'Eviscerated' by Court​



If anything that latest 11th Circuit ruling shows how unqualified she is.  She tried to completely make up a new rule that wasn't based in any US law.  She just pulled the ruling out of her ass head because she was corrupted by her bias, and showed favoritism over independent legal thought.


----------



## Roller

rdrr said:


> If anything that latest 11th Circuit ruling shows how unqualified she is.  She tried to completely make up a new rule that wasn't based in any US law.  She just pulled the ruling out of her ass head because she was corrupted by her bias, and showed favoritism over independent legal thought.



I understand the rationale for lifetime appointments to supposedly reduce or eliminate political pressure on Federal and Supreme Court judges. But how many other jobs, especially ones this important, have a similar, nearly bullet-proof guarantee, with only impeachment as a rarely-used remedy for incompetence?


----------



## Yoused

Roller said:


> But how many other jobs, especially ones this important, have a similar, nearly bullet-proof guarantee, with only impeachment as a rarely-used remedy for incompetence?



Individual-ONE tried to get rid of Dr. Fauci but was unable to touch him. Louis Dejoy has been difficult to deal with as well, and although his term is only 5 years, it looks like he is close to burning the USPS to the ground. And those jobs are even harder to target than just simple impechment.


----------



## rdrr

Yoused said:


> Individual-ONE tried to get rid of Dr. Fauci but was unable to touch him. Louis Dejoy has been difficult to deal with as well, and although his term is only 5 years, it looks like he is close to burning the USPS to the ground. And those jobs are even harder to target than just simple impechment.



I'd say it's only the judgeships that are dangerous lifetime appointments.   I understand the Fauci hate, but he wasn't appointed, and even though he bungled a few things during Covid, he at least has the qualifications to get the job.   Cannon didn't have the qualifications.


----------



## Edd

The Fauci hate is beyond belief. All a part of the GOP relatively recent war-on-experts. That’s one way to go, if you don’t like what experts are saying. I’d just adjust to objective truth but I can’t pretend to understand how MAGAs think, they’re far beyond me.


----------



## Renzatic

Edd said:


> I’d just adjust to objective truth but I can’t pretend to understand how MAGAs think, they’re far beyond me.




There's nothing to understand. All that matters is their perpetual love of Trump, and kneejerking their outrage about at the latest hates of the day.

Don't expect any rhyme, reason, or even consistency to it.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Justice Department has asked for Trump’s lawyers to be held in contempt. I’m sure finding more classified documents this week has done nothing to calm DoJ frustration.

Lawyers for Trump - if not outright corrupt themselves - are probably in a bind over having to choose to defend their client or stonewall the DoJ.









						Justice Department asks judge to hold Trump team in contempt over Mar-a-Lago case — The Washington Post
					

The request came after months of mounting frustration from the Justice Department with the former president’s lawyers.




					apple.news
				




The fact that they keep searching and finding documents should prove to republicans how corrupt and irresponsible Trump is. Storing classified government documents in storage? At his golf club? Losing track of them (or lying and holding onto them) means it’s time for republicans to stop defending Trump. Don’t tell me you’re upset about Hillary’s “carelessness” while defending this brazen theft and irresponsibility.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> Storing classified government documents in storage? At his golf club? Losing track of them (or lying and holding onto them) means it’s time for republicans to stop defending Trump.




Makes you wonder how many other people have seen them, intentionally or otherwise, and US citizens or otherwise. Not just the recent finds, But all of them. 

Wouldn't be shocked at all if it's the case that intelligence operatives from countries hostile to the US have had a few peeks. In exchange for money, of course.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Edd said:


> The Fauci hate is beyond belief. All a part of the GOP relatively recent war-on-experts. That’s one way to go, if you don’t like what experts are saying. I’d just adjust to objective truth but I can’t pretend to understand how MAGAs think, they’re far beyond me.




Clearly you are unaware of the recently discovered gospels by Jesus’s 13th disciple, Covidicus. “For on thee Satan shall unleash the sister plagues of science and suspicious voter activity delivered by mule.”


----------



## fooferdoggie

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Clearly you are unaware of the recently discovered gospels by Jesus’s 13th disciple, Covidicus. “For on thee Satan shall unleash the sister plagues of science and suspicious voter activity delivered by mule.”



I think mule should be changed to ass.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

fooferdoggie said:


> I think mule should be changed to ass.




The gospels of Covidicus are known for being devoid of language that could cause impure thoughts.  And facts, another tool of the devil. 13 pages are dedicated to The Lord’s wrath against the public education system.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Seems that the lawyers have yet to reaffirm that all documents have been handed over - they already screwed that up once by testifying they had returned all documents when they had not - you can argue whether it was because they lied or were grossly inept. My money is both.

But it seems the DoJ has had issues getting them to follow up… they were court-ordered to hire a party to do a search, and yet more documents were found.

The fact Trump took and has continued to hold onto documents after repeatedly being ordered to do so by the most powerful body of law is fact. It’s not a theory or a guess, it’s history. So now what? At what point is breaking the law and continuing to break the law not worth getting a late-night warrant and arresting someone at 4am, someone who is just another citizen in the eye of the law - a problem? “Because he’s a former president” is a “there’s no rule saying a dog can’t play basketball” argument.

The DoJ is STILL cooperating to get the government’s  own stuff back, and Trump is now proven to have still been in active violation of the law. Time to get over the fear of what could happen after an arrest of a former president. Time to get over guessing and getting to finding out. I’m ok with the DoJ taking their time to get there, but if that’s not the end result it’s very arguable far more people could be pissed off than if he is arrested.

I’m ok if something comes out and proves he’s innocent. I don’t expect that and would bet money on it, but it just means I don’t have a closed mind. But that should need to come out at a trial, because right now, there’s clearly enough for an arrest and trial. And I get these things take time, but he’s already earned himself an arrest many times over.


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## lizkat

Citysnaps said:


> Makes you wonder how many other people have seen them, intentionally or otherwise, and US citizens or otherwise. Not just the recent finds, But all of them.
> 
> Wouldn't be shocked at all if it's the case that intelligence operatives from countries hostile to the US have had a few peeks. In exchange for money, of course.




Well from almost the get-go of Trump's presidency,  it was clear to anyone interested that Mar-a-Lago would be the place to get some dinner invites or better yet a club membership or some kind of job, temporary or otherwise, for any assets a hostile power might have on standby.



			https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/13/politics/donald-trump-shinzo-abe-north-korea-documents/index.html
		


This lout has been completely careless about protocols and rules since before he was even elected.  Why would rules about document handling and security matter to him anyway, unless _Hillary's emails... _

 Nothing really matters to Trump except money and whether he's the center of attention.  Sometimes the latter even outweighs the former, since he hasn't always the judgment or impulse control to prioritze even those two things.    I'm sure he enjoyed the media brouhaha over details of that dinner.   Also sure it drew attention in places around the world, not all of them headed up by friends of the USA.


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## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> I’m ok if something comes out and proves he’s innocent.



I'd be ok with that if the "something" was a cute internet cat with a basket full of cute internet kitties all swearing that Trump has been maligned unfairly because not only does he love dogs and cats he loves Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden and the truth-laden truthfulness of his two impeachments for which he is heartily sorry McConnell arranged faux mulligans and he'd be happy to serve time if Mitch did too.

But Twitter has no algos capable of "trending" pics of those kitties right now,  since the six people left on staff are having to work hard to bear up under the weight of impending World Cup quarterfinals  and people trying to finish downloading their Twitter data so they can check out permanently sometime this century.

Short of all that I hope grizzly bear Jack Smith swats Trump into an orange jump suit with an assist from Merrick Garland and the sworn testimony of some people who freely decided the truth matters after all.


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## lizkat

One of the WaPo's right-leaning columnists, Hugh Hewitt,  has outdone himself making excuses for Trump this time out the box.  Buried in there somewhere is this suggestion: 

"Only those who have never worked in a White House can doubt that papers often get mixed up in the chaos of a transition, and Trump’s power to declassify when he was president was unlimited."​​Yeah, okay.   And so this is why when the search of Mar a Lago was conducted, there were classified documents found not just in boxes but in Trump's DESK DRAWER.

Honestly Hewitt is as good as a pill for remedy of low blood pressure.  If yours is high, don't ever read him. 

(He served in the Reagan Administration in a number of positions and has also served as president of the Nixon library.)

In that same column,  Hewitt proposes that instead of indicting Trump, DoJ should use the path offered to Nixon's first VP, that penny-ante crook Spiro Agnew:  a _nolo contendere_ plea to his former grifting as a Maryland governor...  and passage into private life with political obscurity.

The ‘Agnew Option’ could be a way out for Trump — and America (paywall removed)



> Could [Trump] live without rallies? Perhaps, if it meant no more courtrooms. His Agnew Option would not involve suspended sentences, fines or admissions of guilt. Just a laying-down-of-arms on all sides and a commitment from the former president to retire from combat. A settlement.
> 
> Trump will never be an Agnew, because Trump scored the greatest upset in U.S. political history and left his mark on politics, the Supreme Court, Middle East diplomacy and more. But like Agnew, he might be ready to move on — not into obscurity, but into a life free of prosecutors.




Hah, hah, nice try, Mr. Hewitt.

Trump makes the ghost of Spiro Agnew look like a Sunday school teacher.   And Trump has lied to us so many times that there's no point in imagining that he'd keep "his word" on staying out of politics in exchange for not getting indicted. 

Why the WaPo even printed that Hewitt column escapes me really, unless they weren't sure of having a suitably amusing editorial cartoon ready for today's edition.


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## rdrr

lizkat said:


> Honestly Hewitt is as good as a pill for remedy of low blood pressure.  If yours is high, don't ever read him.



_**takes blood pressure** _

No I will pass.


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## Clix Pix

As earlier today  I was reading Hewitt's latest and his suggestion of Trump utilizing the "Agnew Option,", my  jaw dropped open, nearly hitting the floor,  and I thought, "is this guy for real??"   Sheesh!!  As far as I'm concerned, way out in LaLaLand, this chap and his suggestion,  and yes, I'm surprised that the paper even published this.   Haven't gone back in later today to read the comments, but I'll bet there are plenty on this particular bit of writing!


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## Macky-Mac

hmmmmm......the Agnew Option......I recognize and share the desire for Trump to face punishment for his many crimes, but the "Agnew Option" might be what's needed to get the country past the crisis that Trump on trial will cause. 

I don't expect this will be a popular opinion tho


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## mac_in_tosh

lizkat said:


> One of the WaPo's right-leaning columnists, Hugh Hewitt,  has outdone himself making excuses for Trump this time out the box.  Buried in there somewhere is this suggestion:
> 
> "Only those who have never worked in a White House can doubt that papers often get mixed up in the chaos of a transition, and Trump’s power to declassify when he was president was unlimited."​



I assume that Mr. Hewitt has some minimum amount of intelligence in order to write for the WaPo, so I can only conclude that he is being intentionally disingenuous and partisan. I'm sure that his statement needn't much deconstructing here, but let's do it.

As for papers getting mixed up, okay, but if that happens and a former president discovers them in his residence he should immediately return them. Trump didn't do that. He intentionally withheld them, even defying a subpoena, and there are still missing documents.

Declassification is not done with the snap of fingers or just by thinking about it. There's a procedure that must be followed which Trump didn't do. And even if he could declassify documents in such a trivial way, does anyone think he actually read the hundreds of documents and carefully considered the national security implications of declassifying them, a guy who couldn't even read a short daily national security briefing?

I just don't get how people on the right continue to make excuses for someone who incited a violent attack on the Capitol to block the lawful transition of power and enjoyed watching it on t.v. for over three hours and who stole top secret documents and obstructed attempts to recover them. And this is after years of telling us how they stand for law and order and strict constitutionalism. Oh, and Trump gets a pass with the whole family values thing despite cheating on all three of his wives and paying hush money to a porn star. Is their hatred of progressive policies so strong that they would tolerate such a monster?


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## AG_PhamD

lizkat said:


> One of the WaPo's right-leaning columnists, Hugh Hewitt, has outdone himself making excuses for Trump this time out the box. Buried in there somewhere is this suggestion:
> 
> "Only those who have never worked in a White House can doubt that papers often get mixed up in the chaos of a transition, and Trump’s power to declassify when he was president was unlimited."




You know, when this issue of unreturned documents first arose, before we really knew any details, I figured there could be a possibility Trump and his administration misplaced documents- especially if you consider that Trump apparently didn’t believe he was leaving office and refused to have things packed until the last minute, meanwhile, a bunch of his people have quit over the 1/6 fiasco. That might be a reasonable excuse if it didn’t change so many times. 

But the excuses and defenses have changed so many times, in such a short period of time. First it was said to be a complete overreaction because his lawyers had been cooperating and this was akin to having an FBI raid over a late library book. Then his defense escalated into  this being targeted political prosecution. Then suddenly, it was claimed all the documents were actually declassified via his supposed verbal standing order for declassification… because allegedly it is normal to declassify top secret documents so you can bring them home to read. Next it was the documents are all protected by attorney-client privilege. And honestly I stopped paying attention at that point. 

I can only speculate on his motive at this point- there’s probably a variety, the common thread of most motives likely being his pathological narcissism. I suppose it’s possible some of the documents were accidentally misplaced, but it’s hard to believe at this point that would be the whole story.  

The problem with this case is that we may never know what these documents were. I would hope if they do prosecute him, that the public will have a better idea what these files were about. I’m not saying declassify them, but ie explain what type of nuclear secrets he had. His rabid sycophants are going to call this a witch hunt regardless of the gravity of the information and the severity of his motives. But having more information for the public will make a much more compelling case in the court of public opinion.


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## GermanSuplex

Macky-Mac said:


> hmmmmm......the Agnew Option......I recognize and share the desire for Trump to face punishment for his many crimes, but the "Agnew Option" might be what's needed to get the country past the crisis that Trump on trial will cause.
> 
> I don't expect this will be a popular opinion tho




Nope. Indict, arrest and convict his ass.


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## Citysnaps

AG_PhamD said:


> The problem with this case is that we may never know what these documents were. I would hope if they do prosecute him, that the public will have a better idea what these files were about. I’m not saying declassify them, but ie explain what type of nuclear secrets he had.




It would be great if they can be broadly characterized. For example: Intelligence sources and methods relating to <redacted> in Russia. Perhaps even going a bit further as to what was compromised (people, programs, assets, etc).

I'm hoping the FBI was on the job closely monitoring every foreign national from particular countries who visited or contacted Mar a Lago and other trump properties.


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## mac_in_tosh

AG_PhamD said:


> You know, when this issue of unreturned documents first arose, before we really knew any details, I figured there could be a possibility Trump and his administration misplaced documents...



I also wouldn't give this possibility any credence. The National Archives apparently "negotiated" with Trump for many months about returning the documents. Failing that, they asked the DOJ to intervene, which also spent some time "negotiating" before finally issuing a subpoena. If these were simply misplaced documents and Trump was not trying to hide anything, he had plenty of opportunity to return them. He didn't. And he also didn't fully comply with the subpoena.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Citysnaps said:


> I'm hoping the FBI was on the job closely monitoring every foreign national from particular countries who visited or contacted Mar a Lago and other trump properties.




Shouldn't be too hard as the Trump Klan probably proudly posted pictures of their global corruption handshakes all over social media.

Another good forensics tool the FBI has in their shed is seeing any shady deal or meeting accusation hurled at Democrats as a confession by the accuser.   It took them a while to crack the code, but just replace "They" with "I" and all is revealed.


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## lizkat

AG_PhamD said:


> The problem with this case is that we may never know what these documents were.




The problem with cases related to the documents is that there's no defense...  and that Trump tacked on obstruction of the investigations while also trying to delay return of all the documents.    Just having them was a felony.  He's _still _committing felonies and obstructing justice if he has not returned them all.  

The other problem of course is that the "documents problem" is not the only legal problem he faces.


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