# Electric Vehicles: General topics



## DT

So this is - per the title - for discussing all battery powered transportation, using all implementations of the tech:  BEV, PHEV, HEV, and it doesn't have to have 4 wheels, this is the place to talk about EV motorcycles, semi-trucks, etc.


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## rdrr

Almost  bought a Harley Davidson Livewire last year, (mostly due to "The Long Way Up".   So glad I didn't since Harley dumped the line and it's now being sold by a third-party.

On another note I did go on an e-bike tour in Rome in October, and my SO and I had a blast.  So much so that I bought her one for Christmas.  Not too sure about her riding it around the streets of Boston though.  Even though our commute is a short 7 miles, the aggressive drivers and lack of bike lanes, would make it a harrowing ride.


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## SuperMatt

This one looks pretty cool:









						The Lucid Air Is the 2022 MotorTrend Car of the Year
					

Once again, a high-performing, long-range, game-changing electric sedan from a California startup earns our Golden Calipers.




					www.motortrend.com
				




500 miles of range on the top end... but it’s quite expensive.


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## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> This one looks pretty cool:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Lucid Air Is the 2022 MotorTrend Car of the Year
> 
> 
> Once again, a high-performing, long-range, game-changing electric sedan from a California startup earns our Golden Calipers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motortrend.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 500 miles of range on the top end... but it’s quite expensive.




Saw a couple of commercials for those.  Maybe during the SB, but haven't seen anything about them since.  And yes, they look nice.


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## DT

rdrr said:


> On another note I did go on an e-bike tour in Rome in October, and my SO and I had a blast.  So much so that I bought her one for Christmas.




I think e-bikes are going to be a huge "gateway" product for EVs for a lot of folks.  Even around here, that's not the most progressive area, I see a ton of them now (it's pretty good bike town, especially around the Old City).


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## DT

SuperMatt said:


> This one looks pretty cool:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Lucid Air Is the 2022 MotorTrend Car of the Year
> 
> 
> Once again, a high-performing, long-range, game-changing electric sedan from a California startup earns our Golden Calipers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motortrend.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 500 miles of range on the top end... but it’s quite expensive.




Oh yeah, it's pretty stunning, the first product, the Air Dream Edition is ~$170K, basically a limited release, then they'll have some products in the $77K - $140K range, but even the lower end is pretty pricey.

DeMuro is a goofball, I get it, but he's driven some amazing cars, and he basically said, it's like the Luxury of a high end Mercedes and the performance of a Tesla Plaid.


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## quagmire

Speaking of Demuro.... Gonna have to unfollow him now.... 






Yeah Saturn V is NOT the Space Shuttle Doug!


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## User.168

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## Chew Toy McCoy

rdrr said:


> Even though our commute is a short 7 miles, the aggressive drivers and lack of bike lanes, would make it a harrowing ride.




You should move here (San Jose CA).  They're constantly replacing car lanes with bike lanes and it's always assumed the car driver is an asshole in an altercation unless definitively proven otherwise.  It seems like we're not allowed to expect bike riders to be situationally aware, and often they aren't.  It's just best to assume they are going to bike in your car lane, cut you off, and coast through an intersection regardless of what signals and signs might say or other traffic that isn't other bikes.


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## User.45

DT said:


> I think e-bikes are going to be a huge "gateway" product for EVs for a lot of folks.  Even around here, that's not the most progressive area, I see a ton of them now (it's pretty good bike town, especially around the Old City).



I bought an electric bicycle and it would cut my car commute to half and pay for itself by saving on parking in about 6 months. But it got a double flat because this city destroys tires....


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## DT

theSeb said:


> Can we talk about electric bicycles in here too?




Definitely!  I know it's a "car" forum, but any electric transportation, cars, trucks, boats, bicycles.




P_X said:


> I bought an electric bicycle and it would cut my car commute to half and pay for itself by saving on parking in about 6 months. But it got a double flat because this city destroys tires....




I have the worst luck with bike tires, when I used to ride a road bike kind of semi-hardcore, I'd get a flat every 2nd or 3rd ride.  Have you looked into some kind of ruggedized tire?  That's what I did on my mountain bike, still used a tube, just super thick tire material, I think it also had like a kevlar layer or something, didn't get a flat over like 2-3 years (could've also just been lucky ...)




quagmire said:


> Speaking of Demuro.... Gonna have to unfollow him now....
> 
> Yeah Saturn V is NOT the Space Shuttle Doug!




IT'S ALL ROCKETS!!


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## DT

I assume __most__ EV have a frunk (aka front trunk) as I'd image the typical skateboard design makes that space available.

But anyway, that's a great place for food   It's nicely isolates any smells too (since trunks tend to be open-connected to the main cabin.  This was actually take home vs. to-go, but same difference


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## quagmire

DT said:


> I assume __most__ EV have a frunk (aka front trunk) as I'd image the typical skateboard design makes that space available.
> 
> But anyway, that's a great place for food   It's nicely isolates any smells too (since trunks tend to be open-connected to the main cabin.  This was actually take home vs. to-go, but same difference
> 
> 
> View attachment 10429




ID.4 owners look on in jealousy…… 

(Ironically ID.4 would probably be my go to for non-Tesla EV right now or the Ioniq 5)

Have yet to use the frunk yet myself.


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## DT

I just forget about it, so many years of that space not being available.  It's a decent size too, it'll hold (I even did a test fit) a roller, and I've shopped some coolers designed to fit there, I'd just leave in place for groceries/ice, etc.


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## User.168

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## rdrr

theSeb said:


> Excellent. I have been seriously considering getting an e-bike, because even though my getting back into shape is going really well, it still is a huge hassle coming back home, since I live on a big ass hill. An e-bike would allow me to go further and faster and I find the idea fascinating. Does anybody have some experience with e-bikes? I am not looking to spend $6000 on some fancy hipster e-bike. I've set the budget at around the equivalent of $3000 and I am seriously looking at this thing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cyrusher XF800, All-Terrain Ebike
> 
> 
> 50+ miles/charge full suspension ebike. This fat tire electric bicycle rides very smoothly. The choice or preference among many of our mountain electric bikers. Perfect for the trails, and the best seller in our ebike catalog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cyrusher.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 28 mph top speed and around 50 miles range. Sounds pretty sweet. The red and black colour scheme tickles me in all the right ways in all the right places.
> 
> I also ordered the AWD Ioniq 5 in Lucid Blue pearl. Should be here around April next year, since it's a factory order. I wasn't going to settle on some whatever colour the dealer had.



On the Ioniq 5, did you get to test drive one of the showcase ones?  I put down a $100 to do that and be able to order it when available.    I never got called thought to do any of those.


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## DT

theSeb said:


> I also ordered the AWD Ioniq 5 in Lucid Blue pearl. Should be here around April next year, since it's a factory order. I wasn't going to settle on some whatever colour the dealer had.





I'll post some links I got from a few sites where I've been, well, shopping is probably not the right word, kind of speculating ownership   A kid a couple of houses down has one, he comes blasting by carrying his surfboard.

[edit]

They were mostly saved from Electrek and I see they have them filtered at a specific page, so this might be super handy!






						ebikes Archives
					






					electrek.co
				




BTW, I meant to ask about the car you ordered, you had posted this:

Hint
XXXXXXXX XXXXX X

Which I assumed was a Hyundai Ioniq 5 - though you didn't seem that hot on it initially, that at least fit, but then I did this ...

XXXXXXXX XXXXX X = 8 5 1 characters
Hyundai Ioniq 5 = 7 5 1 characters

So then I was baffled.


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## User.45

theSeb said:


> Excellent. I have been seriously considering getting an e-bike, because even though my getting back into shape is going really well, it still is a huge hassle coming back home, since I live on a big ass hill. An e-bike would allow me to go further and faster and I find the idea fascinating. Does anybody have some experience with e-bikes? I am not looking to spend $6000 on some fancy hipster e-bike. I've set the budget at around the equivalent of $3000 and I am seriously looking at this thing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cyrusher XF800, All-Terrain Ebike
> 
> 
> 50+ miles/charge full suspension ebike. This fat tire electric bicycle rides very smoothly. The choice or preference among many of our mountain electric bikers. Perfect for the trails, and the best seller in our ebike catalog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cyrusher.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 28 mph top speed and around 50 miles range. Sounds pretty sweet. The red and black colour scheme tickles me in all the right ways in all the right places.
> 
> I also ordered the AWD Ioniq 5 in Lucid Blue pearl. Should be here around April next year, since it's a factory order. I wasn't going to settle on some whatever colour the dealer had.



Send me a DM


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## rdrr

SuperMatt said:


> I wonder what percentage of people could charge at home and haven’t made the leap to EV yet. Then to compare - what percentage of people just don’t have a way to charge at home.
> 
> When it comes to increasing EV adoption, I think infrastructure is critical. If gas stations were hard to find, ICE vehicles would be much less appealing.



I have been looking at preparing for charge at home station.  I am sure I could just google it and I probably will...  But I would love to know what people had to do to put one in.   I am about to put a 60 Amp sub-panel outside on my shed, and am wondering if that is good enough.


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## DT

rdrr said:


> I have been looking at preparing for charge at home station.  I am sure I could just google it and I probably will...  But I would love to know what people had to do to put one in.   I am about to put a 60 Amp sub-panel outside on my shed, and am wondering if that is good enough.




I have some info, but do you mind if I move this over the Car >> EV thread?

And here we are 

So at home you can use a 120v (Level 1) but clearly if you can accommodate a 240v Level 2 it's much better.  L2 chargers (not to be confused with Tesla fast Level 2 public systems) are generally going to be up to 40 amps, and there's standard protocol that you should only charge about 80% of the circuit spec, i.e., a 40a charger should be on a 50a circuit.

The max amps for the circuit will depend on the existing panel configuration.  We went with 50a, we have existing 200a service, and we had space for the 2-pole breaker right in the existing panel.

If it's not a hardwired charger, it'll use a NEMA specification for the receptacle, with a 50a/240v that would be either an N6-50 or an N14-50, for charging an EV, those are effectively the same.  The 14-50 is common in RV parks, the 6-50 is used by equipment like a welder.  The big difference is the 14-50 supports both 120 and 240 so it's useful for something like an RV that might have lighting but also an oven.  Because it requires a dedicated neutral it can be more expensive to install.

I had the simpler N6-50 installed.  We got a pretty great deal, the install, parts, from a certified electrician was ~$220, but a few things about that price: simple 18" wire run, existing panel with no issues, the whole area easily accessible on the back wall of the garage.

I like that I can easily unplug it, and if the need arose, swap out chargers.

While we're on the subject, these types of boxes aren't really "chargers", they're an EVSE, it's basically an AC switch, the actual charger is built into the vehicle.

There's two plug specs:  Tesla and a J1772, that can be used by a Tesla with an adapter they provide.

We use a Grill-E Smart charger, it's fantastic, 40a, N6-50, 3 year warranty, built like a tank, 24' cable.

I need to jet, but I'll add a few more things in a bit


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## rdrr

DT said:


> I have some info, but do you mind if I move this over the Car >> EV thread?
> 
> And here we are
> 
> So at home you can use a 120v (Level 1) but clearly if you can accommodate a 240v Level 2 it's much better.  L2 chargers (not to be confused with Tesla fast Level 2 public systems) are generally going to be up to 40 amps, and there's standard protocol that you should only charge about 80% of the circuit spec, i.e., a 40a charger should be on a 50a circuit.
> 
> The max amps for the circuit will depend on the existing panel configuration.  We went with 50a, we have existing 200a service, and we had space for the 2-pole breaker right in the existing panel.
> 
> If it's not a hardwired charger, it'll use a NEMA specification for the receptacle, with a 50a/240v that would be either an N6-50 or an N14-50, for charging an EV, those are effectively the same.  The 14-50 is common in RV parks, the 6-50 is used by equipment like a welder.  The big difference is the 14-50 supports both 120 and 240 so it's useful for something like an RV that might have lighting but also an oven.  Because it requires a dedicated neutral it can be more expensive to install.
> 
> I had the simpler N6-50 installed.  We got a pretty great deal, the install, parts, from a certified electrician was ~$220, but a few things about that price: simple 18" wire run, existing panel with no issues, the whole area easily accessible on the back wall of the garage.
> 
> I like that I can easily unplug it, and if the need arose, swap out chargers.
> 
> While we're on the subject, these types of boxes aren't really "chargers", they're an EVSE, it's basically an AC switch, the actual charger is built into the vehicle.
> 
> There's two plug specs:  Tesla and a J1772, that can be used by a Tesla with an adapter they provide.
> 
> We use a Grill-E Smart charger, it's fantastic, 40a, N6-50, 3 year warranty, built like a tank, 24' cable.
> 
> I need to jet, but I'll add a few more things in a bit




Feel like I am drinking from a firehose, but I did ask for it...


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## quagmire

rdrr said:


> I have been looking at preparing for charge at home station.  I am sure I could just google it and I probably will...  But I would love to know what people had to do to put one in.   I am about to put a 60 Amp sub-panel outside on my shed, and am wondering if that is good enough.




Mine was a bit more involved since the garage the Tesla is in is detached and away from the main panel which required digging, etc. So that made it pricey for me. I had to do a sub-panel in the detached garage that is 80A that is broken down into 60A for the Tesla Wall Connector ( max rate of 48A) and 20A for the 120V stuff like the garage door opener, light, and normal outlet.

I went with the Wall Connector because I wanted to keep the mobile connector that comes with the car in the car at all times and it is bad to unplug/replug something into a 14-50 outlet. So the cost of another mobile connector+14-50 adapter+14-50 outlet made it easier for me to spring the extra money for the wall connector.

If that 60A panel is only going to be used for EV charging, that is fine. If it will be shared, it will still be fine, you will just have to limit the car/charger to a lower amp. Like the split being 40A/20A. Then the car should charge no higher than 32A which is still plenty for a home charger.


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## SuperMatt

rdrr said:


> I have been looking at preparing for charge at home station.  I am sure I could just google it and I probably will...  But I would love to know what people had to do to put one in.   I am about to put a 60 Amp sub-panel outside on my shed, and am wondering if that is good enough.



I use a level 1 charger (120V)… nothing fancy - it came with the car. It just plugs into a regular electrical outlet.


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## DT

rdrr said:


> Feel like I am drinking from a firehose, but I did ask for it...




If didn't have to run out, it would've been 2-3X longer hahahaha 

So some additional info that @quagmire didn't cover above.

And I'll just discuss some additional Tesla specifics.

First, some terminology, Tesla has a Tesla Mobile Connector, that's an EVSE (aka "charger") that's supplied with the car.  It very lightweight, has a decent carrying case, and it can supply up to 32a charging.  Obviously, it's a Tesla specific connector.   Here's the neat thing:  it's modular and you can buy different plugs - it comes with a N5-25, that's your standard household 120V/15a outlet.  That plug can be removed, and you can install several other ones, for different volts/amps, they're like $35-45 each, and they even have a kit with all of them.

The Tesla Wall Connector which is their wall mounted /  semi-perm product, it allows up to 48a, ~44 miles per hour.  It's hard wired into the circuit and requires wiring/breaker that supports 60a at the box.

I have the pack-in N5-15, and a N6-50 in case our Grizzl-E craps out, and I also have an N14-30 which is the current spec used for most clothes dryers, it's a 240v/30a, I got that in case we wanted to charge down at the BIL's place in NSB (we go down quite a bit and it's also our planned hurricane evac location).  It's also very slick in that it sets the charging spec when you plug in the adapter (the adapter has some IC logic).

So the volts/amps determines the charge speed, at 40a, I get about 36-37 miles per hour.  At 30a is about 30, etc.

Our 40a charger plugs in, and we leave it plugged in, and like I said, I specifically went 3rd party because I wanted a single charger that would charge the Tesla and the Jeep with a simple adapter.

This is our actual install:


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## rdrr

DT said:


> If didn't have to run out, it would've been 2-3X longer hahahaha
> 
> So some additional info that @quagmire didn't cover above.
> 
> And I'll just discuss some additional Tesla specifics.
> 
> First, some terminology, Tesla has a Tesla Mobile Connector, that's an EVSE (aka "charger") that's supplied with the car.  It very lightweight, has a decent carrying case, and it can supply up to 32a charging.  Obviously, it's a Tesla specific connector.   Here's the neat thing:  it's modular and you can buy different plugs - it comes with a N5-25, that's your standard household 120V/15a outlet.  That plug can be removed, and you can install several other ones, for different volts/amps, they're like $35-45 each, and they even have a kit with all of them.
> 
> The Tesla Wall Connector which is their wall mounted /  semi-perm product, it allows up to 48a, ~44 miles per hour.  It's hard wired into the circuit and requires wiring/breaker that supports 60a at the box.
> 
> I have the pack-in N5-15, and a N6-50 in case our Grizzl-E craps out, and I also have an N14-30 which is the current spec used for most clothes dryers, it's a 240v/30a, I got that in case we wanted to charge down at the BIL's place in NSB (we go down quite a bit and it's also our planned hurricane evac location).  It's also very slick in that it sets the charging spec when you plug in the adapter (the adapter has some IC logic).
> 
> So the volts/amps determines the charge speed, at 40a, I get about 36-37 miles per hour.  At 30a is about 30, etc.
> 
> Our 40a charger plugs in, and we leave it plugged in, and like I said, I specifically went 3rd party because I wanted a single charger that would charge the Tesla and the Jeep with a simple adapter.
> 
> This is our actual install:
> 
> View attachment 10433



Are you fully on the grid or do you have solar to augment your electrical consumption?  Also I am trying to calculate out price per month of an EV vs. ICE.  How have you measured your $/mile?


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## DT

rdrr said:


> Are you fully on the grid or do you have solar to augment your electrical consumption?  Also I am trying to calculate out price per month of an EV vs. ICE.  How have you measured your $/mile?




We're straight grid, I have a buddy with Solar just a few miles away, two Teslas, he's run them for free for like 4 years.

The power here, charging from home, is ~$0.11/kWh, and the battery in my M3P is 82kWh, so a 0% to 100% is ~$9.00 and that's ~300 miles.  However, we wouldn't run under 15-20% in most cases.

So for example: 300 miles in an ICE vehicle that gets 25 MPG would be 300 miles / 25 MPG, 12 gallons x $3.75 = $45  50MPG?  That's $22.50, that's still 2.5X more expensive (and I didn't have to stop at a station or pump gas).

If you do the calculation the other way, for $9 I could get 2.4g of gas at $3.75 meaning, if I got 300 miles out of 2.4 gallons, I'm getting 125 MPG.

And, those 50MPG cars are __slow__.  Sure, that's not a factor for everyone, but it's where a car like a Tesla just upends the normal expectations, better "MPG" than an econobox, faster than a fuel guzzling performance car.

Now that does NOT address supercharging, that's a high power DC fast charging systems that do like 500+ miles/hour,  my first 1000 miles was free, so I haven't paid anything for Superchargers, so my first 3000 miles (that included 6 250+ trips to the airport), was like $70.  ~850 miles free supercharging, otherwise home charging.


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## quagmire

DT said:


> Now that does NOT address supercharging, that's a high power DC fast charging systems that do like 500+ miles/hour,  my first 1000 miles was free, so I haven't paid anything for Superchargers, so my first 3000 miles (that included 6 250+ trips to the airport), was like $70.  ~850 miles free supercharging, otherwise home charging.




Keep in mind for @rdrr , this was a perk for using another persons referral link when ordering a Tesla that gave DT the free 1000 miles in supercharging. 

A perk that is no longer available. Only referrals for Tesla Solar have some kind of value now.


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## DT

quagmire said:


> Keep in mind for @rdrr , this was a perk for using another persons referral link when ordering a Tesla that gave DT the free 1000 miles in supercharging.
> 
> A perk that is no longer available. Only referrals for Tesla Solar have some kind of value now.




Right, and that also assumes a Tesla, when we start getting into DC Fast Charging for other brands, I have no idea, we've never used a public charger for the Jeep.

I mean, clearly that 3000 mile cost is nuts, which is why I clarified 850 miles being free.  I also "over charged" for those 850 miles, I could've done 1/2 that and just arrived home more like 20-25% vs. 50+, so even if I use that math, that's about $144 + $70 for home charging, so $214

I also charged a number of times at a Universal resort for free, so that's like 100-110 miles of free mileage per trip, but I didn't even calculate that in.  But for fun, if we do ~130 miles from here to, let's say, the Portofino, and then top off for free that's like a 260 mile trip for ~$4.00


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## DT

I didn't realize the free 1000 miles was more like "Free charging power for the average mileage equivalency of 1000 miles" 

i.e., for an ICE car, if I gave away 1000 miles of gas, the cost could be very different depending on the car, driver/type of driving, etc.  However, if I said, 30 gallons of 89 octane from Shell, it's a little more consistent.

I had 158 miles left, I hit up the L3 SuC at 117 miles available, figured charge to 275 miles and I'd be at close to zero free miles left.  Well, no   After adding 158 miles from my balance of 158 free miles I still have 55 free miles 

So it's basically the same thing it's a fixed amount of juice, that at some X consumption rate would be 1000 miles, but if MY_RATE < X then it could be 1200, 1300, 1400+ miles.


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## quagmire

With BBB dead, here is waiting forever for my moms Model Y as the idiots putting their orders on hold now flood the system.....   

*Don't mean to get political so don't go that way, but I disagree with people who have had orders since 2020 on hold in hopes of the tax credits coming back for Tesla's. Take delivery of the car or cancel the damn order.


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## SuperMatt

quagmire said:


> With BBB dead, here is waiting forever for my moms Model Y as the idiots putting their orders on hold now flood the system.....
> 
> *Don't mean to get political so don't go that way, but I disagree with people who have had orders since 2020 on hold in hopes of the tax credits coming back for Tesla's. Take delivery of the car or cancel the damn order.



Gotta say - Tesla has really gotten their message out there. People could buy an EV today WITH a tax credit but will wait months for a Tesla.


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## User.45

theSeb said:


> Excellent. I have been seriously considering getting an e-bike, because even though my getting back into shape is going really well, it still is a huge hassle coming back home, since I live on a big ass hill. An e-bike would allow me to go further and faster and I find the idea fascinating. Does anybody have some experience with e-bikes? I am not looking to spend $6000 on some fancy hipster e-bike. I've set the budget at around the equivalent of $3000 and I am seriously looking at this thing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cyrusher XF800, All-Terrain Ebike
> 
> 
> 50+ miles/charge full suspension ebike. This fat tire electric bicycle rides very smoothly. The choice or preference among many of our mountain electric bikers. Perfect for the trails, and the best seller in our ebike catalog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cyrusher.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 28 mph top speed and around 50 miles range. Sounds pretty sweet. The red and black colour scheme tickles me in all the right ways in all the right places.












						XP™ Step-Thru 2.0 Black
					

THE BIKE THE BRAND WHAT'S IN THE BOX The Bike A proprietary XP-Entry™ frame allows bikers to step into adventure with a simple, lateral motion—enabling even those with mobility issues to easily mount and ride. An 850W peak planetary geared motor achieves the perfect balance between torque and...




					lectricebikes.com
				



I got this one. I wanted a foldable one so I can jam it in my car or put it away in my office as needed.

In the USA these are limited to 20 MPH, My commute is 1.5 miles, and I use about 10% of battery to do it, but it's like 20% the uphill direction and more like 3% on the way back, but it seems to be charging. The suspension is ridiculously good, and overall it's the ideal price. Since I can charge it at work, the range doesn't matter much. It's heavy AF though. ~30-35Kg, so carrying it up stairs takes some effort.


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## DT

P_X said:


> I got this one. I wanted a foldable one so I can jam it in my car or put it away in my office as needed.




Neat.  A folding bike is really appealing, where it could be used on a road trip, where you need some quick and easy transportation at your destination and could leave your main vehicle parked.

Oh man, a couple of these for a trip to Savannah would be amazing, you could easily navigate the entire city (and when we go, we park on day one, and the car doesn't move till the end of the trip).


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## User.168

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## User.168

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## User.45

DT said:


> Neat.  A folding bike is really appealing, where it could be used on a road trip, where you need some quick and easy transportation at your destination and could leave your main vehicle parked.
> 
> Oh man, a couple of these for a trip to Savannah would be amazing, you could easily navigate the entire city (and when we go, we park on day one, and the car doesn't move till the end of the trip).



The only theoretical drawback is once you hit the speed limit on the bike, the more you pedal the more it cuts back on pedal assist, i.e. if you wanna over the speed limit, it has to be done by you 100%. I'm fine with it, but it's not for speed daemons



-------
So Ioniq 5's lane keep assist is already smarter than Tesla's autopilot... It adjusts the position of the car within the lane if it's adjacent to another car.


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## DT

P_X said:


> So Ioniq 5's lane keep assist is already smarter than Tesla's autopilot... It adjusts the position of the car within the lane if it's adjacent to another car.




AP does this, certainly when you're passing a wider vehicle it compensates.




SuperMatt said:


> Gotta say - Tesla has really gotten their message out there. People could buy an EV today WITH a tax credit but will wait months for a Tesla.




Tesla is to Electric Vehicles as Xerox is to Photocopiers, they've definitely got a ton of brand equity in the space, at least for now (which is why I leased, zero liability, in 2-1/2 years, I hand the car back over, if their value tanks, if new battery tech decimates the potential equity, if the expansion of Superchargers to non-Tesla vehicles is significant - no sweat.

My two big buyer desires, one of which I think is a top priority for quite a few buyers, at least is the US:  performance and charging network.  The world class AWD system, killer audio, infotainment tech, etc., were certainly positive considerations vs. the potentially chaotically nutty ownership experience, but everything else considered equal, like if the BMW I4 was available at the time, same price, hell, even close to the same performance - the charging infrastructure, from my perspective, as an absolute advantage over the other options.


@quagmire 

Got 44.6 last night, passed up 40.x, went directly from 36.8, some good stuff:  Waypoints (finally ...), Tidal integration, new cold weather/defrost control, the extended driver profiles / cloud based (for multiple cars), a couple of "undocumented" features like Supercharger performance improvement, not sure if it's for a specific model variant and/or specific battery chemistry[?]

Oh, hahaha, and I left 25 free Supercharger miles on the table (it's gone this morning), I was close    Based on my home charging cost, that 25 miles had a cost of ~$0.72 

[edit]

And I'm glad to see the list of SuCs is back vs. just being shown on the map.

For those folks NITK, you get a real time display of Supercharger status, i.e., number of stalls and number available.  Then you select one, send to car, and your nav is all setup to get to it, which also includes activating battery conditioning so when you arrive you get the fastest possible charging.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> AP does this, certainly when you're passing a wider vehicle it compensates.



I didn't see this at all on my rental.


DT said:


> killer audio



Do you use USB sourcing? Just because through BT it's totally mediocre.



DT said:


> the charging infrastructure, from my perspective, as an absolute advantage over the other options.



Agree, 100%. The charging infrastructure and the way the car handles it is really something else.



DT said:


> Tidal integration



Does this mean this goes directly on the car's HD and does Lossless?
Apple Music is far superior to Tidal and far far far far superior to Spotify in sound quality (and selection)


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> @quagmire
> 
> Got 44.6 last night, passed up 40.x, went directly from 36.8, some good stuff:  Waypoints (finally ...), Tidal integration, new cold weather/defrost control, the extended driver profiles / cloud based (for multiple cars), a couple of "undocumented" features like Supercharger performance improvement, not sure if it's for a specific model variant and/or specific battery chemistry[?]
> 
> Oh, hahaha, and I left 25 free Supercharger miles on the table (it's gone this morning), I was close    Based on my home charging cost, that 25 miles had a cost of ~$0.72




We are still update buddies! 44.6 also popped up. Now do we Vision only folk get the holiday update that is supposedly coming tomorrow according to Lord Elon?


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> We are still update buddies! 44.6 also popped up. Now do we Vision only folk get the holiday update that is supposedly coming tomorrow according to Lord Elon?




Us peasants couldn't possibly comprehend his vision of the universe ... I'll light a candle in his name and hope for the best ...


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Us peasants couldn't possibly comprehend his vision of the universe ... I'll light a candle in his name and hope for the best ...




Haha!

But it looks like it got pulled. Couldn’t install it last night since the car wouldn’t connect to WiFi at least through the app. Go out to the car this morning, it’s now claiming I’m up to date still with 36.8.


----------



## DT

@P_X

Apparently Tidal has an option for Lossless (and I believe that's for downloaded content vs. lossy if it's streamed[?]), I don't personally use it, but some of the audiophile folks on some Tesla sites were pretty excited about it.  I was using USB audio, but now we have an Apple Music account active again (see a previous post of mine), with unlimited data, I pretty much just use that.

Yesterday at the SuC, I was playing Classic Metal Essentials ... nothing like a little Pantera and Slayer at 9a in the morning 

FYI, if the Model 3 you rented was an SR/SR+, it doesn't have the same premium audio as the LR and P models, i.e., 14 speakers, 1 subwoofer, 2 amps, more DSP, etc.  The Model 3 premium audio is recognized around the sound industry as being pretty stellar.


----------



## Herdfan

I did not know that EV's needed special tires.  But it looks like Goodyear is joining the game:









						Goodyear debuts high performance electric car replacement tire
					

Goodyear's ElectricDrive GT tires are a new model designed specifically for electric vehicles. The tire is engineered to meet the unique requirements of an EV.




					www.foxnews.com
				




While not cheap, it is within the range of similar ICE car tires of a similar size and performance.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> I did not know that EV's needed special tires.  But it looks like Goodyear is joining the game:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Goodyear debuts high performance electric car replacement tire
> 
> 
> Goodyear's ElectricDrive GT tires are a new model designed specifically for electric vehicles. The tire is engineered to meet the unique requirements of an EV.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While not cheap, it is within the range of similar ICE car tires of a similar size and performance.




They don't really, I'm tossing on the same tire I'd use on any of my previous performance vehicles.  It's not like it's even that much heavier than other cars around the same size,  a BMW 340x AWD model is ~4000 lbs, so is a Model 3 dual motor.

Like anything, they're making some advancements - in this case, it's rolling resistance vs. stickiness, not much different than any other tire development.  And all tires have a load rating and in fact, many people don't even look at the specification, but for example:





That's a super popular, outstanding high performance tire I'd put on a Mustang, on an M3, and it easily exceeds the load requirement (1609 lbs per tire) for a Model 3.

Some EVs come with tires that have an acoustic baffle, basically just some foam inserts to cut down on tire noise, most people seem to think the impact is negligible.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> @P_X
> 
> Apparently Tidal has an option for Lossless (and I believe that's for downloaded content vs. lossy if it's streamed[?]), I don't personally use it, but some of the audiophile folks on some Tesla sites were pretty excited about it.  I was using USB audio, but now we have an Apple Music account active again (see a previous post of mine), with unlimited data, I pretty much just use that.
> 
> Yesterday at the SuC, I was playing Classic Metal Essentials ... nothing like a little Pantera and Slayer at 9a in the morning
> 
> FYI, if the Model 3 you rented was an SR/SR+, it doesn't have the same premium audio as the LR and P models, i.e., 14 speakers, 1 subwoofer, 2 amps, more DSP, etc.  The Model 3 premium audio is recognized around the sound industry as being pretty stellar.



All I can say is what I experienced, Which was super mediocre (which is not bad, but something you immediately forget about). To be 100% clear though using Bluetooth audio is a benchmark it’s totally unfair. The model I rented was a 2021 model three, and I don’t recall it stating what specific model that was, but it had the option of immersive audio so I suspect it was the premium audio version. Again one of the major impressions I’ve had, is a Tesla cut corners on IP and immersive audio is supposed to be some reinterpretation of dolby logic Surround remix of stereo audio. My I3 premium HK system for example Does not have such, But because the space is relatively narrow it doesn’t need it either.

I’ll also say that I’m definitely not the end all on premium audio But I do have plenty of first-hand experience With the power of suggestion when it comes to audio perception. So my definite null hypothesis For audio is BS Until proven otherwise.


----------



## DT

Nope, the SR has some kind of immersive audio but not the much better hardware.  I don’t believe Hertz rents anything other than the base Model 3. 

I have that setting dialed down as it’s fantastic without it.  I used my own CD lossless rips as source, from remastered Floyd, Portishead, Massive Attack, music with lots of depth, range, and it sounds terrific from USB, so maybe you had the non-premium + BT + mediocre source.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> Nope, the SR has some kind of immersive audio but not the much better hardware.  I don’t believe Hertz rents anything other than the base Model 3.
> 
> I have that setting dialed down as it’s fantastic without it.  I used my own CD lossless rips as source, from remastered Floyd, Portishead, Massive Attack, music with lots of depth, range, and it sounds terrific from USB, so maybe you had the non-premium + BT + mediocre source.



I used Turo. About said Draco for version.


----------



## DT

@quagmire 

44.25, hahaha OMG, Merry Christmas, must have


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> @quagmire
> 
> 44.25, hahaha OMG, Merry Christmas, must have




Yeah .25 looks great. Did you get it? 

So far nothing for me... Then again should I be spoiled by having two updates in two days?


----------



## DT

I didn't, because you didn't 

The fun stuff looks, well, fun and a silly, but I'm incredibly interested in the UI changes, the ability to change the controls, and the new turn signal/blind spot camera update.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> Nope, the SR has some kind of immersive audio but not the much better hardware.  I don’t believe Hertz rents anything other than the base Model 3.



I found it. It was SR+ with premium connectivity and full self driving and the latest OS. 
Immersive sound was low and standard. For premium it is standard and high. I would have also noticed subwoofer, lol. So we have this clarified. 



DT said:


> I have that setting dialed down as it’s fantastic without it.  I used my own CD lossless rips as source, from remastered Floyd, Portishead, Massive Attack, music with lots of depth, range, and it sounds terrific from USB, so maybe you had the non-premium + BT + mediocre source.



I use apple music with lossless streaming even on cell, which is pretty fantastic via USB, but mediocre via BT.


----------



## quagmire

@DT Lord Elon has decreed 44.25 out tomorrow evening!* 

*Remains to be seen if Vision-only cars are included in the roll out.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> @DT Lord Elon has decreed 44.25 out tomorrow evening!*
> 
> *Remains to be seen if Vision-only cars are included in the roll out.


----------



## quagmire

@DT Woohooo…. And saw someone on Reddit reveal that the matrix headlights does the Tesla projection trick.


----------



## cloudflare420

How has cold weather been affecting their EVs? I’m noticing a lot of extra battery drain. 

For example, here’s a trip I took a few weeks ago. I burned through 240 miles of range doing 149 miles. Made it to the SC at under 10% and the v3 charger never hit 250 kW. Average temp was around 30F at the time.


----------



## SuperMatt

cloudflare420 said:


> How has cold weather been affecting their EVs? I’m noticing a lot of extra battery drain.
> 
> For example, here’s a trip I took a few weeks ago. I burned through 240 miles of range doing 149 miles. Made it to the SC at under 10% and the v3 charger never hit 250 kW. Average temp was around 30F at the time.



Cold weather is definitely a factor, from just plain operating in the cold to the drain on the battery from the heater. I use the heated seats usually to save a lot of battery.


----------



## DT

Hahaha, yes!


----------



## DT

That was actually from about an hour ago, I immediately preferred the new UI, as least in terms of aesthetic, usability/UX vs. V10 is still TBD, but my quick first impression is some things I definitely like better.  I'll see how the driving experience has changed in a few (some final XMas Even chores).


----------



## cloudflare420

must’ve missed an update. 44.6 is going now


----------



## DT

cloudflare420 said:


> must’ve missed an update. 44.6 is going now




Maybe you'll get x.6 and x.25 back to back!

Driving impression, yes, it's good, the layout is cleaner,  instruments are slightly better positioned,  the blind spot camera turn signal update is terrific.

Light Show?  We're on standby till it turns dark tonight


----------



## cloudflare420

No x.25 yet. Maybe they’re not rolling out to vision-only cars yet?


----------



## quagmire

cloudflare420 said:


> No x.25 yet. Maybe they’re not rolling out to vision-only cars yet?




Both mine and @DT vehicles are vision only and got the update. 

I am actually hoping 44.25 is a merging of the radar and vision branches ever since Vision became a thing in May. Vision cars always seemed to lag 1-2 months and 2-3 versions before getting caught up.


----------



## cloudflare420

Is it just me or has the functionality gotten worse? It requires more taps for basic functions like the wipers.


----------



## Eric

Wanted to get your guys' thoughts on full self-driving for the Tesla, I know some here have mentioned not getting it and we know we can subscribe for $199 per month when needed, I have friends doing this as well. However, they seemed to have made a conscious decision to incrementally raise the price of it, it was only $7000 in 2019 and now it's $10,000 with a guaranteed price increase in 2022 as well.

I have chosen to go without for now and will subscribe if/when I feel like I need it. The standard auto pilot will work for my needs from what I can see but I'll keep watching up until I get my VIN and may change my mind if it seems compelling enough.


----------



## Eric

The best and most practical use of Tesla technology I've seen yet.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/rodtep


----------



## JayMysteri0

_A 2013 Tesla Model S adorned with 66 pounds of dynamite_



> Finnish Man Blows Up Tesla Car Instead of Replacing Battery
> 
> 
> A Tesla repair shop told a Model S owner that replacing the battery would cost more than $22,600. He decided to stick 66 pounds of dynamite on the car.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gizmodo.com





> There are times in life when you have to chose between paying a boatload of money or watching a very big explosion. Well, not really, but Finnish man Tuomas Katainen sure did. Katainen is a 2013 Tesla Model S owner who was told he would have to pay more than $22,600 to replace the battery on his car. For him, it apparently wasn’t worth it, so he decided to team up with a YouTuber to blow up his Model S with 66 pounds (30 kilograms) of dynamite instead.
> 
> According to Katainen, his Model S ran “excellent” for the first 932 miles (1,500 kilometers) after he bought it, but then the error codes started to appear. He sent his car to a Tesla dealer’s repair shop, where it remained for about a month, and was told they couldn’t do anything for his car. His only option would be to replace the entire battery, which would cost more than $22,600, and he would have to ask Tesla permission to carry out the repair.
> 
> To put this in perspective, $22,600 would go a long way to buying another used 2013 Model S in Finland, which appear to sell for more than $42,900. But Katainen decides that’s not for him, proving that there is indeed a thin line between logic, rage, and insanity.
> 
> “So I told them I’m coming to pick up the Tesla,” he said in the video. “Now I’m going to explode the whole car away.”






> In the fascinating video, which features a dummy of Tesla CEO Elon Musk that’s dropped from a helicopter and ends with the very big explosion of Katainen’s Model S, Pommijätkät asks Katainen what is better: a working Tesla or exploding the car with 66 pounds of dynamite?
> 
> “Sort of both,” he said. “Maybe more explosion.”


----------



## Cmaier

JayMysteri0 said:


> _A 2013 Tesla Model S adorned with 66 pounds of dynamite_



As an owner of a 2013 Model S, this depresses me, and now I’m paranoid about the battery.


----------



## User.45

Cmaier said:


> As an owner of a 2013 Model S, this depresses me, and now I’m paranoid about the battery.



Yeah, I'd not trust Tesla with any of this. Also, Model S/X are also full of proprietary parts and are a mechanic's worst nightmare reportedly. Model 3/Y simplified greatly, but per a friend of mine who contracted with Tesla in the earlier days, the body isn't going to be very durable on M3 either.


----------



## cloudflare420

Eric said:


> Wanted to get your guys' thoughts on full self-driving for the Tesla, I know some here have mentioned not getting it and we know we can subscribe for $199 per month when needed, I have friends doing this as well. However, they seemed to have made a conscious decision to incrementally raise the price of it, it was only $7000 in 2019 and now it's $10,000 with a guaranteed price increase in 2022 as well.
> 
> I have chosen to go without for now and will subscribe if/when I feel like I need it. The standard auto pilot will work for my needs from what I can see but I'll keep watching up until I get my VIN and may change my mind if it seems compelling enough.



Do not pay for FSD, I repeat, DO NOT waste your money on FSD. 

The vision-only AutoPilot doesn’t even work most of the time. I can’t imagine trying to let it drive you around.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> Wanted to get your guys' thoughts on full self-driving for the Tesla, I know some here have mentioned not getting it and we know we can subscribe for $199 per month when needed, I have friends doing this as well. However, they seemed to have made a conscious decision to incrementally raise the price of it, it was only $7000 in 2019 and now it's $10,000 with a guaranteed price increase in 2022 as well.
> 
> I have chosen to go without for now and will subscribe if/when I feel like I need it. The standard auto pilot will work for my needs from what I can see but I'll keep watching up until I get my VIN and may change my mind if it seems compelling enough.





cloudflare420 said:


> Do not pay for FSD, I repeat, DO NOT waste your money on FSD.
> 
> The vision-only AutoPilot doesn’t even work most of the time. I can’t imagine trying to let it drive you around.



I second that based on a 4 day, 800Mi roadtrip. 10K is a lot of money for something you'll have a difficult time learning to trust. Based on some of the jerkiness, I would not let it drive in the city. CNN had a very similar experience with it https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/18/cars/tesla-full-self-driving-brooklyn/index.html

For long stretches of HW driving, adaptive cruise control with lane keep is just fine.


----------



## Eric

cloudflare420 said:


> Do not pay for FSD, I repeat, DO NOT waste your money on FSD.
> 
> The vision-only AutoPilot doesn’t even work most of the time. I can’t imagine trying to let it drive you around.






P_X said:


> I second that based on a 4 day, 800Mi roadtrip. 10K is a lot of money for something you'll have a difficult time learning to trust. Based on some of the jerkiness, I would not let it drive in the city. CNN had a very similar experience with it https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/18/cars/tesla-full-self-driving-brooklyn/index.html
> 
> For long stretches of HW driving, adaptive cruise control with lane keep is just fine.



Okay, this is how I am leaning as well. Just a couple of questions on this, does it allow you to keep your hands off the wheel for longer periods of time when stuck in really slow stop and go traffic? My BMW did this and it was a great feature. Also, anyone using counterweights to prevent nags at freeway speeds?


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> Okay, this is how I am leaning as well. Just a couple of questions on this, does it allow you to keep your hands off the wheel for longer periods of time when stuck in really slow stop and go traffic? My BMW did this and it was a great feature. Also, anyone using counterweights to prevent nags at freeway speeds?



Not sure about the stop and go behavior. As @quagmire told me you can inactivate the wheel alarm by scrolling the scrollwheel. Otherwise holding the wheel is insufficient, youll need to jerk it a little to register. It also punishes you if you fail to demonstrate hands in wheel: inacivates AP until next stop, LOL. 

Would never temper with stuff like this. The system demanding your attention is because it really needs it. 

I think the stop and go performance was decent, but bear in mind, EVs accelerate really fast without a warning roar from your engine, so the solution is to turn on the slowest acceleration setting (Chill mode on m3) that way you don’t have to be on higb alert.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> Yeah, I'd not trust Tesla with any of this. Also, Model S/X are also full of proprietary parts and are a mechanic's worst nightmare reportedly. Model 3/Y simplified greatly, but per a friend of mine who contracted with Tesla in the earlier days, the body isn't going to be very durable on M3 either.



Tesla’s biggest advantages: Being one of the first, the charging network, and the “cool factor.”

They still have #2. Once *standard* chargers become ubiquitous, they will be competing based on the vehicle itself. And others are making some very nice, and more affordable, EVs right now.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> Not sure about the stop and go behavior. As @quagmire told me you can inactivate the wheel alarm by scrolling the scrollwheel. Otherwise holding the wheel is insufficient, youll need to jerk it a little to register. It also punishes you if you fail to demonstrate hands in wheel: inacivates AP until next stop, LOL.
> 
> Would never temper with stuff like this. The system demanding your attention is because it really needs it.
> 
> I think the stop and go performance was decent, but bear in mind, EVs accelerate really fast without a warning roar from your engine, so the solution is to turn on the slowest acceleration setting (Chill mode on m3) that way you don’t have to be on higb alert.



The BMW has capacitive touch so it's different from this, apparently. All you have to do is touch the wheel but it must be done with your hand, just as you would an iPhone screen and there is no tricking it short of a complex system. I get the whole debate over whether you should or shouldn't but that's not what I'm after, I simply want to know whether or not it works, even if I choose not to use it.

If the safety systems are more of a pain in the ass to maintain by playing big brother than I would simply rather not have them, let alone pay extra for it.

Also, how long between nags at freeway speeds would you guess and are they noticeably different in slower stop and go traffic?


----------



## quagmire

DO NOT USE COUNTERWEIGHTS OR ANY OTHER DEFEAT DEVICES! 

The nags have gotten worse due to idiots who do. You want to treat a L2 automation system as a L5, just don't use it. 

Anyway, autopilot has handled stop and go relatively well. It accelerates a bit aggressively sometimes, but overall fine. I have follow distance set to 7( furtherest out). All the steering wheel needs is some resistance as it tries to steer and it won't nag you as that is telling the system you're still paying attention. Other wise the nag seems to be every 40-60 seconds.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> DO NOT USE COUNTERWEIGHTS OR ANY OTHER DEFEAT DEVICES!
> 
> The nags have gotten worse due to idiots who do. You want to treat a L2 automation system as a L5, just don't use it.
> 
> Anyway, autopilot has handled stop and go relatively well. It accelerates a bit aggressively sometimes, but overall fine. I have follow distance set to 7( furtherest out). All the steering wheel needs is some resistance as it tries to steer and it won't nag you as that is telling the system you're still paying attention. Other wise the nag seems to be every 40-60 seconds.



I've been reading that the fact that you have to actually pull on the wheel can force it out of autopilot, to the point that some people have stopped using it entirely. I'll have to try this out for myself but if feels like I'm fighting (or must circumvent) the car in order to have this functionality then I'll probably not use it all together, it's sounding like a disappointment over my BMW. 

Yes, I have my hands on the wheel at all times anyway but I never had to forcibly move it before. In addition the whole thing with watching eye movement is another big brother move that seems unnecessary, Tesla is like the MacRumors of cars, watching your every move for the slightest mistake.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> I've been reading that the fact that you have to actually pull on the wheel can force it out of autopilot, to the point that some people have stopped using it entirely. I'll have to try this out for myself but if feels like I'm fighting (or must circumvent) the car in order to have this functionality then I'll probably not use it all together, it's sounding like a disappointment over my BMW.
> 
> Yes, I have my hands on the wheel at all times anyway but I never had to forcibly move it before. In addition the whole thing with watching eye movement is another big brother move that seems unnecessary, Tesla is like the MacRumors of cars, watching your every move for the slightest mistake.



Using the scroll wheel is enough for the system to consider you paying attention. Agree with quagmire, acceleration can be a little too aggressive, but again the solution is to put it in chill mode so so you have more time to react if needed. I essentially do the same thing on My BMW.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> Using the scroll wheel is enough for the system to consider you paying attention. Agree with quagmire, acceleration can be a little too aggressive, but again the solution is to put it in chill mode so so you have more time to react if needed. I essentially do the same thing on My BMW.



Yeah, I found my BMW did the same with acceleration and it can be pretty freaky. Mine is gone now but I didn't know there was the equivalent of chill mode on the BMW but probably missed it somewhere. I know the Traffic Jam Assist (basically anything under somewhere around 37 MPH) is an awesome feature, nags way less and basically lets you kick it in stop and go traffic, IMO perfectly designed.


----------



## quagmire

Eric said:


> I've been reading that the fact that you have to actually pull on the wheel can force it out of autopilot, to the point that some people have stopped using it entirely. I'll have to try this out for myself but if feels like I'm fighting (or must circumvent) the car in order to have this functionality then I'll probably not use it all together, it's sounding like a disappointment over my BMW.
> 
> Yes, I have my hands on the wheel at all times anyway but I never had to forcibly move it before. In addition the whole thing with watching eye movement is another big brother move that seems unnecessary, Tesla is like the MacRumors of cars, watching your every move for the slightest mistake.




Yeah pull too hard AP will disengage( it assumes you need control). But the mere act of holding it doesn't let the system know. There is no touch sensors in the wheel. It relies on resistance/torque on the wheel. So if you're holding it, but providing no resistance as the wheel turns, it doesn't register as you're paying attention. Get it right, it will never nag you. Or else it will require a quick jiggle of the wheel or the scroll wheel to adjust volume. It's something I have gotten use to.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> Yeah pull too hard AP will disengage( it assumes you need control). But the mere act of holding it doesn't let the system know. There is no touch sensors in the wheel. It relies on resistance/torque on the wheel. So if you're holding it, but providing no resistance as the wheel turns, it doesn't register as you're paying attention. Get it right, it will never nag you. Or else it will require a quick jiggle of the wheel or the scroll wheel to adjust volume. It's something I have gotten use to.



I was able to get one much sooner because they had the exact same model with my specs at a nearby dealership, it seems like a lot of people back out of their purchases, the only difference is the color is blue and I had to pay the extra $1000 for that. 

I drove it about 80 miles in heavy traffic and got a feel for the autopilot system and all I can say is that it's worlds above and beyond the BMW system. First, it never lost the lines a single time, the BMW lost them about 1/4 of the time on this same drive. The nags are completely reasonable and I was surprised at how long until it finally kicked in and when it did, the nudge was really simple to reset. I see absolutely no need to circumvent this at all, it's clearly designed really well.

It's a pleasure to drive and was just as smooth as my 2020 5 series BMW. There are a lot of controls to learn so I'll take my time working with it although it's currently installing an update to 2021.44.25.2 and I'm not sure if it will change the screen significantly but it's probably a good time anyway as I'm still learning it.

The acceleration was shocking, man I can't see how something like that is even legal, it literally slammed my head back pinned me to the seat in a second flat and I don't think this is even the sporty version of the car, it's the long range. 

So far I'm pretty amazed with all of it, it's definitely next level and I can see why there are so many on the road. Plus, I've never had an easier experience purchasing a car, took all of 20 minutes and I just picked the car up with the cards in it and my phone already paired, didn't even have to go into the dealership.


----------



## quagmire

Eric said:


> I was able to get one much sooner because they had the exact same model with my specs at a nearby dealership, it seems like a lot of people back out of their purchases, the only difference is the color is blue and I had to pay the extra $1000 for that.
> 
> I drove it about 80 miles in heavy traffic and got a feel for the autopilot system and all I can say is that it's worlds above and beyond the BMW system. First, it never lost the lines a single time, the BMW lost them about 1/4 of the time on this same drive. The nags are completely reasonable and I was surprised at how long until it finally kicked in and when it did, the nudge was really simple to reset. I see absolutely no need to circumvent this at all, it's clearly designed really well.
> 
> It's a pleasure to drive and was just as smooth as my 2020 5 series BMW. There are a lot of controls to learn so I'll take my time working with it although it's currently installing an update to 2021.44.25.2 and I'm not sure if it will change the screen significantly but it's probably a good time anyway as I'm still learning it.
> 
> The acceleration was shocking, man I can't see how something like that is even legal, it literally slammed my head back pinned me to the seat in a second flat and I don't think this is even the sporty version of the car, it's the long range.
> 
> So far I'm pretty amazed with all of it, it's definitely next level and I can see why there are so many on the road. Plus, I've never had an easier experience purchasing a car, took all of 20 minutes and I just picked the car up with the cards in it and my phone already paired, didn't even have to go into the dealership.




Nice! Blue is a nice color. Is it a '22? Red would have been my second choice, but hard to spend $2K for that. Plus the $2500 on top since I would have done the 19"  wheels and white interior. 

Just saw the news drop that latest deliveries/production run in N. America are getting the Ryzen and lithium 12V battery. Manage to get lucky with getting the Ryzen powered computer? Believe the way to that is in the settings-> software-> additional info.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> Nice! Blue is a nice color. Is it a '22? Red would have been my second choice, but hard to spend $2K for that. Plus the $2500 on top since I would have done the 19"  wheels and white interior.
> 
> Just saw the news drop that latest deliveries/production run in N. America are getting the Ryzen and lithium 12V battery. Manage to get lucky with getting the Ryzen powered computer? Believe the way to that is in the settings-> software-> additional info.



I thought it may be a 22 but all the software versions say 21 so it's hard to say. I did look for this and the only additional info I found (under the self driving) in this area doesn't mention anything about the battery.


----------



## User.45

The Ioniq 5 seems like the most promising EV coming. The only thing it's missing is the 3rd row, but I would rarely use that feature anyway.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> The Ioniq 5 seems like the most promising EV coming. The only thing it's missing is the 3rd row, but I would rarely use that feature anyway.



Looks great. The Kia EV6 is basically a slightly different version of this...






Review from WIRED:









						Kia's EV6 Is One Fine Tech-Boosted Ride
					

The Korean company's superb new electric flagship gets so much right it's almost a shame to point out the few missteps.




					www.wired.com
				




Good to see Kia/Hyundai really making some nice products.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Looks great. The Kia EV6 is basically a slightly different version of this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Review from WIRED:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kia's EV6 Is One Fine Tech-Boosted Ride
> 
> 
> The Korean company's superb new electric flagship gets so much right it's almost a shame to point out the few missteps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wired.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good to see Kia/Hyundai really making some nice products.



Yeah, it's the same car in essence, but AFAIR the center console is fixed in the Kia. By making some some estimations, I could sell my I3 and get a 3-row Model Y (with my preferred specs), or I could keep my I3 and buy a specced out Ioniq 5. ModelY might be a better investment as its resale value will probably remain higher, even despite the reduced tax cut. On the other hand, again I am worried about ModelY falling apart by the time I pay off the loan on it...


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> I was able to get one much sooner because they had the exact same model with my specs at a nearby dealership, it seems like a lot of people back out of their purchases, the only difference is the color is blue and I had to pay the extra $1000 for that.




Holy hell dude, I duck out for a few and you get your new car like 3 months ahead of schedule 

I had one of the fast-er-est order-to-delivery times ever, I have to assume it was like yours, i.e., an abandoned order that just happen to be my exact specs.




Eric said:


> The acceleration was shocking, man I can't see how something like that is even legal, it literally slammed my head back pinned me to the seat in a second flat and I don't think this is even the sporty version of the car, it's the long range.




I have the Performance flavor which drops the 0-60 more than second - it's nuts and I've had some fast vehicles.  Around town performance, the M3P is stunningly quick. I mean, for some additional references I had an ~800HP Supra, a Z06 that was a head/cam/intake/exhaust/headers set (~500HP) that was also lightened to just a hair over #3000, but my M3P would blow them into the weeds in the 0-40/50/60 range.

The mix of massive instant torque, very little mechanical losses / no gears / no transmission, an incredibly competent AWD system just makes it nasty fast. And consistent too, there's no launch mode, no brake/boost loading, just stopped >> full throttle and it's gone, with barely any noise 




Eric said:


> So far I'm pretty amazed with all of it, it's definitely next level and I can see why there are so many on the road. Plus, I've never had an easier experience purchasing a car, took all of 20 minutes and I just picked the car up with the cards in it and my phone already paired, didn't even have to go into the dealership.




Range + Charging Network + Performance + Price, there were zero alternatives for me when I purchased in June '21, and still nothing in Dec '21.  Maybe when the lease is up in a couple of years, I'll have (from my perspective) some great alternatives where I can really cross shop.


----------



## Herdfan

This may be a dumb question, but will any of the autopilot systems let you exceed the speed limit?  ie. set the cruise control at 75 in a 70 and the turn on the autopilot?


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Holy hell dude, I duck out for a few and you get your new car like 3 months ahead of schedule
> 
> I had one of the fast-er-est order-to-delivery times ever, I have to assume it was like yours, i.e., an abandoned order that just happen to be my exact specs.
> 
> I have the Performance flavor which drops the 0-60 more than second - it's nuts and I've had some fast vehicles.  Around town performance, the M3P is stunningly quick. I mean, for some additional references I had an ~800HP Supra, a Z06 that was a head/cam/intake/exhaust/headers set (~500HP) that was also lightened to just a hair over #3000, but my M3P would blow them into the weeds in the 0-40/50/60 range.
> 
> The mix of massive instant torque, very little mechanical losses / no gears / no transmission, an incredibly competent AWD system just makes it nasty fast. And consistent too, there's no launch mode, no brake/boost loading, just stopped >> full throttle and it's gone, with barely any noise
> 
> Range + Charging Network + Performance + Price, there were zero alternatives for me when I purchased in June '21, and still nothing in Dec '21.  Maybe when the lease is up in a couple of years, I'll have (from my perspective) some great alternatives where I can really cross shop.



I had to laugh when I looked in the upgrades section and saw you can shave off 1.5 seconds for $2000, man that has to be the most shameless update I've ever seen. Say what you want about Elon Musk but that dude knows how to milk the well-to-do. I'm personally not paying for FSD either, as it is this car is buggy enough, can't see paying $10,000 for beta-ware.



Herdfan said:


> This may be a dumb question, but will any of the autopilot systems let you exceed the speed limit?  ie. set the cruise control at 75 in a 70 and the turn on the autopilot?



I accidentally exceeded the speed limit on autopilot and it screamed at me, setting off all sorts of alarms and warnings, then it penalized me and disabled the system for "the rest of the drive". This happened to me when someone cut me off as well earlier in the trip. Love this car but that is bullshit. Felt like Weaselboy developed it or something.


----------



## SuperMatt

I do not like the auto-driving stuff. It’s clear most of it is half-baked. Also, based on the crappy quality of software I see in car systems, I do NOT want to entrust my safety at 60+ MPH to those developers.

And one can look at the Tesla software updates as “my car can go faster with just a software update!” But if you look at it another way, they intentionally handicapped your vehicle and made you pay extra to use its innate capabilities.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> I do not like the auto-driving stuff. It’s clear most of it is half-baked. Also, based on the crappy quality of software I see in car systems, I do NOT want to entrust my safety at 60+ MPH to those developers.




Yeah Ford's Sync is in like its 3rd generation and they still can't match the Sirius channel logo with the preset.   Not a safety issue, but if you can't get that right, what else isn't right?


----------



## Eric

I think they likely had to implement safety protocols and that can make it restrictive, aside from that the actual autopilot on the freeway is extremely functional on the Tesla. If you want to take it casually to your destination you can go for hundreds of miles with little to no intervention.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I do not like the auto-driving stuff. It’s clear most of it is half-baked. Also, based on the crappy quality of software I see in car systems, I do NOT want to entrust my safety at 60+ MPH to those developers.
> 
> And one can look at the Tesla software updates as “my car can go faster with just a software update!” But if you look at it another way, they intentionally handicapped your vehicle and made you pay extra to use its innate capabilities.



My concern is more like, these cars are way too fast for AP to misbehave with a 0 to 60 of 4 sec. 



SuperMatt said:


> Looks great. The Kia EV6 is basically a slightly different version of this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Review from WIRED:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kia's EV6 Is One Fine Tech-Boosted Ride
> 
> 
> The Korean company's superb new electric flagship gets so much right it's almost a shame to point out the few missteps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wired.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good to see Kia/Hyundai really making some nice products.



I looked it up, so Ioniq5 has back seats that can roll back and forth, and the center console can also slide. With my height, it becomes very uncomfortable with anybody behind me on the back seat, so having the ability to modulate trunk space and recline back seats is a huge thing. My kids kicking my seat is the bane of my existence.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> This may be a dumb question, but will any of the autopilot systems let you exceed the speed limit?  ie. set the cruise control at 75 in a 70 and the turn on the autopilot?




Sure, you can set a fixed speed at whatever, and the more advanced systems use some kind of "speed awareness" where the system adapts to the actual posted limit, and you can set a +- vs. that limit, on the Tesla it allows for an absolute amount (like 5 over) or a relative over.




SuperMatt said:


> And one can look at the Tesla software updates as “my car can go faster with just a software update!” But if you look at it another way, they intentionally handicapped your vehicle and made you pay extra to use its innate capabilities.




It's an additional bit of performance for people who want it, and for people who don't - i.e., it's fast enough, and/or want the best range from the model, they can opt not to pay the extra.  It also keeps the model variants down, otherwise, they'd need something like a Model 3 LR __and__ a Model 3 LR Type-R 

It's no different than things like this from Ford:





It's an OEM, warranty backed performance update - Tesla just happens to be able to do it via an OTA update vs. bolting on parts and flashing the ECU via the OBD port.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> I looked it up, so Ioniq5 has back seats that can roll back and forth, and the center console can also slide. With my height, it becomes very uncomfortable with anybody behind me on the back seat, so having the ability to modulate trunk space and recline back seats is a huge thing. My kids kicking my seat is the bane of my existence.




Adjustable position (front-to-rear) back seats is a fantastic design touch (especially in that market segment).  I've often wondered why more mid-sized sedans don't offer that, er, I guess because you're just supposed to buy the next size up model ...


----------



## Eric

Was out taking photos of wind turbines in the valley and decided to snap some of the new car as well.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> Adjustable position (front-to-rear) back seats is a fantastic design touch (especially in that market segment).  I've often wondered why more mid-sized sedans don't offer that, er, I guess because you're just supposed to buy the next size up model ...



Yeah, I’ve only seen this feature standard with 3row cars/vans.


Eric said:


> Was out taking photos of wind turbines in the valley and decided to snap some of the new car as well.
> 
> View attachment 10679



Very thematic with the windmills. Wondering how much does it cost to insure these machines? Two years ago that was one of the biggest turn offs for me.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> Yeah, I’ve only seen this feature standard with 3row cars/vans.
> 
> Very thematic with the windmills. Wondering how much does it cost to insure these machines? Two years ago that was one of the biggest turn offs for me.



Good question, it's actually comparable to the BMW, maybe just a tad more. We were worried it was going to be higher but were pleasantly surprised.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Good question, it's actually comparable to the BMW, maybe just a tad more. We were worried it was going to be higher but were pleasantly surprised.




For reference, my previous car:

2019 Mustang GT Convertible (all options), MSRP ~$58K
$945/year insurance

Replaced by:

2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance, MSRP ~$58K
$907/year insurance

Same insurance company, same stout coverage, two cars, house with the same company for 20 years.  I think insurance prices have normalized a bit, initially there were a lot of companies that lacked historical data, etc., and so they were kind of nuts with pricing.  A buddy of mine added a Tesla, and his company he'd been with for decades gave him a rate that was like 3X the comparable ICE vehicle, so he went to a different company for that one car.  About a year later, they called him for an insurance review, and offered a rate that was significantly lower than the previous quote (basically the same as his one off coverage for that car).


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> Very thematic with the windmills.




Yeah, that's just terrific.  Someone over on TMC posted this pic of a Tesla at this old, closed, broke down gas station, it was like a still from a sci-fi movie


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Yeah, that's just terrific.  Someone over on TMC posted this pic of a Tesla at this old, closed, broke down gas station, it was like a still from a sci-fi movie



Recently stumbled onto that site, what a monster! Also uses Xenforo.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Recently stumbled onto that site, what a monster! Also uses Xenforo.




Yeah, @quagmire  and I are both over there, and the recently invited @diamond.g is too    Nice site, lots of a great technical info, and it's shocking the difference in, umm, let's say "social perspective" it is vs. my old Mustang site (and the old Corvette site I used to frequent is a fucking dumpster fire ...)


----------



## Eric

I also learned that my car is Intel and not the new AMD, then I looked up the difference to see what all the hubbub was about and the infotainment system is not something I really care about, waiting 20 extra few seconds for my movie to load? I mean really, who gives a shit. But you can see this is the sort of thing that some will demand as a "must have", sort of like they do with an extra camera lens on the iPhone or something.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> I also learned that my car is Intel and not the new AMD, then I looked up the difference to see what all the hubbub was about and the infotainment system is not something I really care about, waiting 20 extra few seconds for my movie to load? I mean really, who gives a shit. But you can see this is the sort of thing that some will demand as a "must have", sort of like they do with an extra camera lens on the iPhone or something.




Yeah, as I understand it, most of the performance difference is for the media/entertainment functions, the main car operation, nav, UI, etc., doesn't benefit that much.

When the latest OS required a new MCU (MCU2), they actually made it available to owners with MCU1 (that was pre-Model 3).  I'm assuming it's just as modular for MCU2 Model 3s, so if it's a real game changer at any point, you can upgrade (for a "small fee" hahaha )


----------



## Eric

No SiriusXM in the Tesla is a huge letdown.


----------



## DT

@AG_PhamD @cloudflare420

Since you asked, I figured I'd just post here ... 

Where I wound up is a funny path. I started converting lawn gear over to battery stuff, initially just a Greenwise blower (Dad's Day gift), then when I saw you could score other tools without the battery making them super inexpensive I was like OK, this makes even more sense, a single pack is easily shared.  At some point I needed to mow, no gas, and I was thought, I'd just check out some other options - I hit up Woot.com and they had a Greenworks mower, two packs, another charger for about 60% off (new, free shipping).  Got that, and it's glorious - no smell, much less noise, no fluids/mess, and with 3 packs and two chargers, everything can be run anytime.  It makes sense.

The wife's DD/RT lease came up, we wanted to try something different, decided we: 1) didn't need 3 rows and 2) that we both always wanted a Wrangler. We wound up buying the lease out at the end and turning right around and selling it to Carvana, paid $30K, sold it for $41K, so that was a pretty sweet score.  FWIW, the lease couldn't be bought out directly under 30 days of it ending, and in the time it took to buy it and get the title (~3 weeks) that price actually went up like $2000. 

Anyway, the new 4xe Wrangler was just getting released (this was April '21), that as you may know was Jeep's new PHEV, I'm like OK, that's neat, 25-30 miles on battery only, 375HP / 470 ft-lbs TQ, plus all the regular Wrangler features like the removable roof, a killer 4WD.  We get one of the first batch, it's discounted $2K, and we get the $7500 Fed Tax credit right up front against the lease! It winds up being $200/month lower than the DD/RT, same out of pocket and it's a $5K more expensive car.  Since then the 4xe has gone up several thousand and discounts have pretty much dried up, so our timing was excellent.

The 120v/15a supplied charger is slow, so we get a LEFANEV 32A (N6-50), and in the same order I also pick up an N10-30 to N6-50 adapter cable. It works, we're not driving that much so shuffling between the dryer and charger is __OK__. The EVSE itself is decent, there's a ton of the same sort of price/class chargers that look like this. The cable is 18' so it doesn't reach if I back the Jeep in, so I start thinking about getting a different product, and about that same time start thinking about one with higher output, you know, in case we added another EV that could use more than 32a 

We totally love it - and again, it makes so much sense.  My original thought was start with a PHEV, but once I had a taste of fast home charging, and a month where we used 2 gallons of gas, my perspective starts to change.

Then I get a 50a circuit installed, replace the 32a charger with a killer unit made my Grizzl-E.  It's a beefy product built in Canada, 24' cables, modular power/charge cable, all metal construction/all weather, WiFi/OCPP compatible.  Now charging is ultra-simplified, no swapping outlets with the dryer, and now I'm also getting the full 32a (the dryer outlet only allowed for 24a).

The lights really go on in my head so to speak - once you get the difference in how you use/"fuel" an EV vs. an ICE, it's such a "Oh, now I get it" moment.

I install an electric hoist, the top comes off the Wrangler, hahaha, and pretty much stays off.  So now we've got two "convertibles", the GT doesn't make a ton of sense as the "extra car". I start thinking about alternatives in terms of features:  solid performance, roomy, and something that we could use for road trips or a quick trip in town when it's raining and putting the top back on the Wrangler isn't a quick process.

And I have a 40a charger right in the garage ...

And I'm completely digging on the EV concept ...

I make the decision:  a Tesla.

I won't get into the decision process too much in this post, only that my desire for performance, an extensive charging network and tech - significant research - combined with lots of personal insight to the vehicles through owner friends - informed my choice.

I sell the GT convertible, also to Carvana - not the deal like the DD/RT, but the same I paid 2 years ago, so I guess driving for "free" wasn't bad - I also swapped back most of the aftermarket parts, sold them, easily broke even 

On June 11, Friday, I place my order:  Model 3 Performance, MSM exterior, white premium interior.  Saturday I complete all the required paperwork, by Sunday my EDD is moved up weeks - by Monday I'm getting prompted to select a delivery date June 18  - June 21.  Seriously, one week from order to 1st available pickup date.  I wind up selecting June 20 since that a Sunday and Dad's Day, figured it would fun and semi-quiet for the drive home.

Ours was delivered pretty much perfect:  solid paint, no defects, no issues, no janky panels, and zero operational issues.  For that matter the 4xe has been pretty perfect too, we took it in for a recall check, no biggie, got all new firmware, no charge, dealer is < 10 miles away.

The Model 3 Performance is quiet, comfortable, roomy, has a spectacular audio system, killer electronics/remote/mobile systems, a stellar AWD system and outstanding visibility.

Best of all, it's super quick while also being inexpensive to operate and super convenient.

About a month after I owned it,  I snuck over the test/training area (also where the local A/X runs), nobody around, so I flipped on Track Mode, allows for full F/R bias control, selected the pre-configured "drift", got the rear end loose a couple of times


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> No SiriusXM in the Tesla is a huge letdown.




Yeah, you can use the iOS app and stream it, but the silly thing is there's a native app in the Model S    It's not sat direct, it's an app that uses the network based stream.

(Maybe they'll eventually enable it in the Model 3)


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Yeah, you can use the iOS app and stream it, but the silly thing is there's a native app in the Model S    It's not sat direct, it's an app that uses the network based stream.
> 
> (Maybe they'll eventually enable it in the Model 3)



Is it just a matter of logistics and it not being satellite enabled, or just Elon Musk having a bad day?


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Is it just a matter of logistics and it nat being satellite enabled, or just Elon Musk having a bad day?




Maybe it's missing hardware, i.e., I might be wrong about the Model S, it might actually have the antenna.  Still, just a native app (using the internet based stream) would be great for many, we've listened to XM in the house this way.

XM is odd, I sort of get the anti-Apple stance since they're possibly encroaching in the same space, but XM seems like nothing but a net positive.


----------



## Cmaier

DT said:


> Maybe it's missing hardware, i.e., I might be wrong about the Model S, it might actually have the antenna.  Still, just a native app (using the internet based stream) would be great for many, we've listened to XM in the house this way.
> 
> XM is odd, I sort of get the anti-Apple stance since they're possibly encroaching in the same space, but XM seems like nothing but a net positive.



My model S definitely has actual sirius/xm hardware. (The software quality has gotten so bad, though, that there are days that the car thinks it is missing, and I have to call tesla to have them remotely reprovision my car).


----------



## DT

Cmaier said:


> My model S definitely has actual sirius/xm hardware. (The software quality has gotten so bad, though, that there are days that the car thinks it is missing, and I have to call tesla to have them remotely reprovision my car).




Ahh, thanks for the clarification.  I think I conflated the discussion about people wanting the M3 to get a streaming app so it could have "XM like the S", but the S has actual hardware like our Jeep.  Heck, our last several vehicles have had XM (even though I generally don't sub in my car).


----------



## cloudflare420

DT said:


> Yeah, you can use the iOS app and stream it, but the silly thing is there's a native app in the Model S    It's not sat direct, it's an app that uses the network based stream.
> 
> (Maybe they'll eventually enable it in the Model 3)



Yeah this is what I've been doing. Plus the iOS app has a bunch of extra channels (if you have the correct plan)


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> and selling it to Carvana,




I just want to say many thanks for turning me on to Carvana.  Was able to sell my mom's old E550 for $1,820 more than I was going to ask locally.  And it's done.  No test drives or haggling or detailing it.  

It really couldn't have been simpler.  I owe you a beer for sure.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> I just want to say many thanks for turning me on to Carvana.  Was able to sell my mom's old E550 for $1,820 more than I was going to ask locally.  And it's done.  No test drives or haggling or detailing it.
> 
> It really couldn't have been simpler.  I owe you a beer for sure.



Same here, had no idea what my car would be worth until these guys pointed it out and I'm sure I wouldn't be in my Tesla today. So yeah, both @DT and @quagmire have been schooling us here.


----------



## DT

Heck, I had no idea either, I just happened into a thread on the Mustang board about the crazy offers and went from there   Carvana makes it so easy, it's almost a little scary how little validation is needed before they transfer your funds.  I mean, our vehicles were mint - the person doing the pickup boths times was like "Wow!" - but there's all sorts of mechanical things you could "hide".

The offer from Vroom for my GT (not the DD/RT) was ~$1500 higher, but I wasn't hip to their model, which is basically driving away with the car before the offer is finalized (and you having to go get it if you decline any adjustments).

Hahaha, the girl who picked up my GT was really into cars, and her dog's name - and her "dream car" - was Tesla


----------



## DT

@Eric

Another neat thing with Tesla, the car has an API, so 3rd parties can develop software for it, that's how I have an Apple Watch app for it, through an app called Tessie (iOS/WatchOS).  You can set up Siri automations with it, so I can use voice to do things like open the trunk.

The iPhone app has a really nice UI as well, does this beautiful viz of the weather as an animated background:







Has tons of analytics, cost analysis, etc.


There's other services like TeslaScope, where they do incredibly extensive analysis, can plot usage metrics onto a calendar, etc., but it also lets your car contribute version information to the central DB, which is how some of these projections about software rollouts are determined:


----------



## DT

Oh and this is another great resource:





__





						Tesla News, Latest Software Updates, Tesla Rumors and Tips
					

The latest Tesla news, software updates, rumors and Tesla tips. Tesla software update release notes and so much more.




					www.notateslaapp.com
				




They track updates (both current and projected), and have a nice breakdown of the features/fixes for the release (both the car and the app).


----------



## quagmire

People have been making some great light shows with the new feature.






And I got 44.30 yesterday, but once again the car won't connect to WiFi remotely.... Oh well.... Not like it is getting driven right now with me out of state training with my new employer.


----------



## DT

There's a whole site for this 









						Tesla light show repository
					

This is a repository of all the light shows from the community. Feel free to contribute.  See installation instructions here: https://github.com/teslamotors/light-show#usb-flash-drive-requirements




					teslalight.show


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> There's a whole site for this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla light show repository
> 
> 
> This is a repository of all the light shows from the community. Feel free to contribute.  See installation instructions here: https://github.com/teslamotors/light-show#usb-flash-drive-requirements
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teslalight.show




Sweet! One thing I haven't seen is if people with the matrix headlights have been able to do custom lettering projections or does it only allow the Tesla lettering. Seems like those who opted to do the lettering projection have kept it as Tesla.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Sweet! One thing I haven't seen is if people with the matrix headlights have been able to do custom lettering projections or does it only allow the Tesla lettering. Seems like those who opted to do the lettering projection have kept it as Tesla.




I don't see a way to set it specifically, either there's something in the xLights config that defines it (you load a model/channel definition file), or it's some kind of pre-defined Tesla firmware value.  I'm not even 100% sure what the channel is called unless it's Channel 3 / SIGNATURE






This is a visual map to the light element for the channels:


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> I don't see a way to set it specifically, either there's something in the xLights config that defines it (you load a model/channel definition file), or it's some kind of pre-defined Tesla firmware value.  I'm not even 100% sure what the channel is called unless it's Channel 3 / SIGNATURE
> 
> View attachment 10755
> 
> 
> This is a visual map to the light element for the channels:




Darn.  

I have a song in mind that would make the headlights say something song related would be awesome. Or just modify the stock one to say merry Xmas instead.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Darn.
> 
> I have a song in mind that would make the headlights say something song related would be awesome. Or just modify the stock one to say merry Xmas instead.




Have you messed around with XLights at all?  There's native Windows and Mac apps, the latter is a little crusty in terms of UI, but it's serviceable.  It's a super popular app to do light sequencing for Christmas light displays, I even heard it mentioned by name one time on the Great Christmas Light Fight 

Basically you add the channels/model files, then in the sequences panel you have access to all the lights and "closures" (windows, charge port, etc.), here's mine up and running:


----------



## DT

Oh, and assuming you got 44.30, no new features for Model 3, but apparently it fixed a few dark mode issues (specifically on the map), and tweaked the fonts a bit.


----------



## Herdfan

New MB concept EV:









						New Mercedes could be Tesla killer with 47in TV on board and 620 mile range
					

MERCEDES-BENZ has finally revealed its Vision EQXX electric car. The vehicle could be set to rival Elon Musk’s electric Tesla and looks like the perfect mashup between classic and futuristic.…




					www.the-sun.com


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> New MB concept EV:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Mercedes could be Tesla killer with 47in TV on board and 620 mile range
> 
> 
> MERCEDES-BENZ has finally revealed its Vision EQXX electric car. The vehicle could be set to rival Elon Musk’s electric Tesla and looks like the perfect mashup between classic and futuristic.…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.the-sun.com



Imagine being Mercedes, once THE name in one of the mostly highly regarded car manufacturers for decades, having to compete on this level with Tesla.

Tesla went all in functionality, pricing and ease of buying/software and are leaving the others behind so you get the desperation of Mercedes here.









						Tesla's quickly becoming the most popular luxury car in the US, now outselling Mercedes
					

More people registered Teslas than Benzes in the US through September of this year. Elon Musk's company still trails behind BMW and Lexus.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> Imagine being Mercedes, once THE name in one of the mostly highly regarded car manufacturers for decades, having to compete on this level with Tesla.
> 
> Tesla went all in functionality, pricing and ease of buying/software and are leaving the others behind so you get the desperation of Mercedes here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla's quickly becoming the most popular luxury car in the US, now outselling Mercedes
> 
> 
> More people registered Teslas than Benzes in the US through September of this year. Elon Musk's company still trails behind BMW and Lexus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com



I believe it is something close to desperation for luxury manufacturers. Teslas are not cheap, and are definitely supplanting other luxury sales.

That being said, the current stock valuation of Tesla is a bit crazy. If you take it on face value, the assumption seems to be that they will become the only car manufacturer on the planet. I believe they will continue to be a top luxury brand into the future, but the mid-to-low cost EV market will be much more diverse.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> I believe it is something close to desperation for luxury manufacturers. Teslas are not cheap, and are definitely supplanting other luxury sales.
> 
> That being said, the current stock valuation of Tesla is a bit crazy. If you take it on face value, the assumption seems to be that they will become the only car manufacturer on the planet. I believe they will continue to be a top luxury brand into the future, but the mid-to-low cost EV market will be much more diverse.



Not cheap but comparable and I think that's key because they've streamlined the buying process/pricing options to be as easy as buying an iPhone. The prices are basically fixed, it took me all of 20 minutes to fill out the online application, download the app and complete the transaction all without speaking to a single person from the comfort of my couch. Last time I bought my BMW I was in the dealership for 4 hours haggling and filling out paperwork. The difference is day and night.


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> I believe it is something close to desperation for luxury manufacturers. Teslas are not cheap, and are definitely supplanting other luxury sales.
> 
> That being said, the current stock valuation of Tesla is a bit crazy. If you take it on face value, the assumption seems to be that they will become the only car manufacturer on the planet. I believe they will continue to be a top luxury brand into the future, but the mid-to-low cost EV market will be much more diverse.




The evaluation is also driven from the Tesla power products, and they've made some really powerful strategic purchases - for example: materials for batteries, and some real advancements like full frame casting.  I think there's a lot of lift over their IP, massive charging network, ability to actually produce cars.

I mean, of course, it's zany inflated, but the whole EV space is nuts.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Not cheap but comparable and I think that's key because they've streamlined the buying process/pricing options to be as easy as buying an iPhone. The prices are basically fixed, it took me all of 20 minutes to fill out the online application, download the app and complete the transaction all without speaking to a single person from the comfort of my couch. Last time I bought my BMW I was in the dealership for 4 hours haggling and filling out paperwork. The difference is day and night.




Yeah, it was kind of surreal, select a couple of options, pay $100.  Then get a couple of email/message prompts for financing all done online in about 5 minutes it's done, prompt for proof of insurance, upload a card, done - get a "your car is ready for pickup, choose one of these dates/time, click done.

As much as I love cars, I detest the purchasing process.


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Yeah, it was kind of surreal, select a couple of options, pay $100.  Then get a couple of email/message prompts for financing all done online in about 5 minutes it's done, prompt for proof of insurance, upload a card, done - get a "your car is ready for pickup, choose one of these dates/time, click done.
> 
> As much as I love cars, I detest the purchasing process.



I gotta say it was odd to just be told to pick it up from the lot and linked up to the phone without even talking to anyone or go into the dealership. Key cards were in the car and it was already paired with my device, we just drove up and grabbed it. You can see how that's hard to compete with for other dealerships.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> I gotta say it was odd to just be told to pick it up from the lot and linked up to the phone without even talking to anyone or go into the dealership. Key cards were in the car and it was already paired with my device, we just drove up and grabbed it. You can see how that's hard to compete with for other dealerships.




Did you have any interaction with the Service Advisor ?  Even though it was Sunday, there was a ton of people picking up (the Tesla SC about 30 minutes away), and everyone had an SA going over the final details.

The day we picked up it was raining really bad, our SA told us to sit in the car and he ran back and forth with an umbrella


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Did you have any interaction with the Service Advisor ?  Even though it was Sunday, there was a ton of people picking up (the Tesla SC about 30 minutes away), and everyone had an SA going over the final details.
> 
> The day we picked up it was raining really bad, our SA told us to sit in the car and he ran back and forth with an umbrella



You mean the dudes who run around helping people out on the lot? Briefly because they ran up and asked if we needed anything, just asked a couple of questions like "wait, we can really just get in this car and drive it home?".


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> Not cheap but comparable and I think that's key because they've streamlined the buying process/pricing options to be as easy as buying an iPhone. The prices are basically fixed, it took me all of 20 minutes to fill out the online application, download the app and complete the transaction all without speaking to a single person from the comfort of my couch. Last time I bought my BMW I was in the dealership for 4 hours haggling and filling out paperwork. The difference is day and night.



I’m happy that Tesla has moved this market forward. I was way too poor for it, but when they released their original Roadster, I wanted one very badly.

That being said, I find myself more excited by the steady flow of new EVs from other manufacturers. The competition is likely to make all EVs better.

As for the purchase process, avoiding the dealerships entirely was genius. Does ANYBODY like going to the dealer?


----------



## DT

This is just an experiment, no idea about thermals over a wide range of use, and it added like 700-lbs to the car, but I'd say it's a good preview of things to come in the short term ...

Our Next Energy, also known as ONE, installed one of its battery packs in a Tesla Model S and managed to have it *travel 752 miles on a single charge*.

The Model S is Tesla’s longest-range vehicle with up to 405 miles of range on a single charge depending on the configuration.

CEO Elon Musk has often said that Tesla could make it have an even longer range by jamming a 120 kWh battery pack in it, but the automaker instead focuses on achieving a longer range through better efficiency.

In order to showcase its own battery technology, Our Next Energy (ONE) has now installed its own battery system in a Model S.

The company did a test drive with an average speed of 55 mph and achieved a range of 752 miles:



> Our Next Energy, Inc. (ONE), a Michigan battery technology company, has demonstrated a proof-of-concept battery that powered an electric vehicle 752 miles without recharging. The vehicle completed a road test across Michigan in late December with an average speed of 55 mph. The results were validated by a third party using a vehicle dynamometer where the test vehicle, a Tesla Model S retrofitted with an experimental battery, achieved 882 miles at 55 mph.




They released a video of the range test:


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> I’m happy that Tesla has moved this market forward. I was way too poor for it, but when they released their original Roadster, I wanted one very badly.
> 
> That being said, I find myself more excited by the steady flow of new EVs from other manufacturers. The competition is likely to make all EVs better.
> 
> As for the purchase process, avoiding the dealerships entirely was genius. Does ANYBODY like going to the dealer?



Couldn't agree more, it's definitely the future and each manufacture seems to have unique features. Additionally, hopefully it'll push Tesla into providing some fo the more standard features (like being able to plug your house into the car for example) that others seem to be adopting.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> I believe it is something close to desperation for luxury manufacturers. Teslas are not cheap, and are definitely supplanting other luxury sales.




Maybe not only the luxury manufacturers:









						Titans of car-making are plotting the overthrow of Elon Musk
					

The world’s two biggest automakers — each sold roughly 10 or 11 cars for every one Elon Musk did last year




					www.livemint.com


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Maybe not only the luxury manufacturers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Titans of car-making are plotting the overthrow of Elon Musk
> 
> 
> The world’s two biggest automakers — each sold roughly 10 or 11 cars for every one Elon Musk did last year
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.livemint.com



It's just a matter of time, just ask Tom from MySpace.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> It's just a matter of time, just ask Tom from MySpace.




I was thinking Tucker from, well Tucker.  But Tom works just as well.


----------



## DT

re: my post about ONE above

Can you imagine in the next 1-2 years, having an EV, where, for example, my family could jump in and drive from NE FL, down to Tavernier, FL (in Key Largo) or Atlanta or Charlotte, with an easy 30-40% charge left.

It also has powerful implications for PHEVs, like a reasonably efficient ICE implementation, let's say 30MPG, a 12g tank, so 360 miles gas range, but a battery that supported 100-125 miles range, so a huge number of use cases would easily be handled by battery only, and close to 500 miles in hybrid mode.


----------



## User.45

I just learned that wIth AT&T discontinuing it's 3G network, my BMW will lose its remote capabilities. So if I understand correctly, I won't be able to remotely check the charge, lock/unlock, preheat, etc.  I'm so incredibly fucking pissed about this. If BMW thinks this will make me want to buy a newer bimmer, they are quite wrong...


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> I just learned that wIth AT&T discontinuing it's 3G network, my BMW will lose its remote capabilities. So if I understand correctly, I won't be able to remotely check the charge, lock/unlock, preheat, etc.  I'm so incredibly fucking pissed about this. If BMW thinks this will make me want to buy a newer bimmer, they are quite wrong...



My VW e-Golf already lost that service for the same reason. That being said, I hadn’t renewed the subscription because I didn’t find it very useful for my needs.


----------



## AG_PhamD

DT said:


> @AG_PhamD @cloudflare420
> 
> Since you asked, I figured I'd just post here ...
> 
> Where I wound up is a funny path. I started converting lawn gear over to battery stuff, initially just a Greenwise blower (Dad's Day gift), then when I saw you could score other tools without the battery making them super inexpensive I was like OK, this makes even more sense, a single pack is easily shared.  At some point I needed to mow, no gas, and I was thought, I'd just check out some other options - I hit up Woot.com and they had a Greenworks mower, two packs, another charger for about 60% off (new, free shipping).  Got that, and it's glorious - no smell, much less noise, no fluids/mess, and with 3 packs and two chargers, everything can be run anytime.  It makes sense.
> 
> The wife's DD/RT lease came up, we wanted to try something different, decided we: 1) didn't need 3 rows and 2) that we both always wanted a Wrangler. We wound up buying the lease out at the end and turning right around and selling it to Carvana, paid $30K, sold it for $41K, so that was a pretty sweet score.  FWIW, the lease couldn't be bought out directly under 30 days of it ending, and in the time it took to buy it and get the title (~3 weeks) that price actually went up like $2000.
> 
> Anyway, the new 4xe Wrangler was just getting released (this was April '21), that as you may know was Jeep's new PHEV, I'm like OK, that's neat, 25-30 miles on battery only, 375HP / 470 ft-lbs TQ, plus all the regular Wrangler features like the removable roof, a killer 4WD.  We get one of the first batch, it's discounted $2K, and we get the $7500 Fed Tax credit right up front against the lease! It winds up being $200/month lower than the DD/RT, same out of pocket and it's a $5K more expensive car.  Since then the 4xe has gone up several thousand and discounts have pretty much dried up, so our timing was excellent.
> 
> The 120v/15a supplied charger is slow, so we get a LEFANEV 32A (N6-50), and in the same order I also pick up an N10-30 to N6-50 adapter cable. It works, we're not driving that much so shuffling between the dryer and charger is __OK__. The EVSE itself is decent, there's a ton of the same sort of price/class chargers that look like this. The cable is 18' so it doesn't reach if I back the Jeep in, so I start thinking about getting a different product, and about that same time start thinking about one with higher output, you know, in case we added another EV that could use more than 32a
> 
> We totally love it - and again, it makes so much sense.  My original thought was start with a PHEV, but once I had a taste of fast home charging, and a month where we used 2 gallons of gas, my perspective starts to change.
> 
> Then I get a 50a circuit installed, replace the 32a charger with a killer unit made my Grizzl-E.  It's a beefy product built in Canada, 24' cables, modular power/charge cable, all metal construction/all weather, WiFi/OCPP compatible.  Now charging is ultra-simplified, no swapping outlets with the dryer, and now I'm also getting the full 32a (the dryer outlet only allowed for 24a).
> 
> The lights really go on in my head so to speak - once you get the difference in how you use/"fuel" an EV vs. an ICE, it's such a "Oh, now I get it" moment.
> 
> I install an electric hoist, the top comes off the Wrangler, hahaha, and pretty much stays off.  So now we've got two "convertibles", the GT doesn't make a ton of sense as the "extra car". I start thinking about alternatives in terms of features:  solid performance, roomy, and something that we could use for road trips or a quick trip in town when it's raining and putting the top back on the Wrangler isn't a quick process.
> 
> And I have a 40a charger right in the garage ...
> 
> And I'm completely digging on the EV concept ...
> 
> I make the decision:  a Tesla.
> 
> I won't get into the decision process too much in this post, only that my desire for performance, an extensive charging network and tech - significant research - combined with lots of personal insight to the vehicles through owner friends - informed my choice.
> 
> I sell the GT convertible, also to Carvana - not the deal like the DD/RT, but the same I paid 2 years ago, so I guess driving for "free" wasn't bad - I also swapped back most of the aftermarket parts, sold them, easily broke even
> 
> On June 11, Friday, I place my order:  Model 3 Performance, MSM exterior, white premium interior.  Saturday I complete all the required paperwork, by Sunday my EDD is moved up weeks - by Monday I'm getting prompted to select a delivery date June 18  - June 21.  Seriously, one week from order to 1st available pickup date.  I wind up selecting June 20 since that a Sunday and Dad's Day, figured it would fun and semi-quiet for the drive home.
> 
> Ours was delivered pretty much perfect:  solid paint, no defects, no issues, no janky panels, and zero operational issues.  For that matter the 4xe has been pretty perfect too, we took it in for a recall check, no biggie, got all new firmware, no charge, dealer is < 10 miles away.
> 
> The Model 3 Performance is quiet, comfortable, roomy, has a spectacular audio system, killer electronics/remote/mobile systems, a stellar AWD system and outstanding visibility.
> 
> Best of all, it's super quick while also being inexpensive to operate and super convenient.
> 
> About a month after I owned it,  I snuck over the test/training area (also where the local A/X runs), nobody around, so I flipped on Track Mode, allows for full F/R bias control, selected the pre-configured "drift", got the rear end loose a couple of times




Interesting. 

As for PHEV’s, my theory is just stuck with ICE or go all the way with EV, haha. Having a hybrid system just seems to add unnecessary cost and reliability complexities. I suppose if you’re leasing the reliability issue isn’t as big of deal. 

I really do love the new wranglers though and I suppose the hybrid helps address their biggest problem, fuel economy.  My sister has a 2019 Sahara V6 and I’ve been quite impressed with the quality compared to the older wrangler models. That said, I had a rental 2021 Wrangler Sport 2.0T… let’s just say the Sahara pack makes a big difference. 

Her Jeep was rear ended last year by a Kia and it broke her frame. Shockingly it was not totaled and the insurance spend a month and a half paying for the entire car to be rebuilt.

Although I have numerous quibbles about Teslas quality and service, if you’re going to buy an EV it seems like the most practical product at this point in time. 

Believe it or not I am still driving my 2009 535i XDrive w/153,000 miles. I told myself I’ll buy a new car when this one is done or has some major issue. Since then I’ve hardly had any problems, naturally. I put new tires on her last year. Cosmetically she’s great and everything works. Hopefully things hold up until the car market calms down a little bit. Or maybe in 30 years I’ll still be driving this car. 

Idk if I told you this but my dad bought a new Range Rover HSE TD6 like a year or so ago. Beautiful car but it’s had a bunch of issues including the USB ports failing and turbo leaking. Pretty disappointing considering his old 2012 RRS had very few problems. It gets 27mpg highway which is awesome  for the size of the car. In fact, it’s 1-2mpg than his IS350 AWD “commuter car”. IMO he should have bought a Land Cruiser when he had the chance, but he didn’t want a car “that big” (not sure but I can’t imagine there’s a significant exterior size difference).


----------



## Herdfan

P_X said:


> I just learned that wIth AT&T discontinuing it's 3G network, my BMW will lose its remote capabilities. So if I understand correctly, I won't be able to remotely check the charge, lock/unlock, preheat, etc.  I'm so incredibly fucking pissed about this. If BMW thinks this will make me want to buy a newer bimmer, they are quite wrong...




You would think that automakers would have figured this out by now.  It's not like this is the first time it has happened.


----------



## DT

AG_PhamD said:


> As for PHEV’s, my theory is just stuck with ICE or go all the way with EV, haha. Having a hybrid system just seems to add unnecessary cost and reliability complexities. I suppose if you’re leasing the reliability issue isn’t as big of deal.




The Wrangler 4xe hybrid system - by design - is tuned quite a bit different.  It's designed for power augmentation and running in battery only mode.

When both ICE/EV modes are active, it generates 375HP, and 470 ft-lbs/TQ, on the street that translates into a sub 5.5s 0-60, when doing some real "Jeep duty", that 470 ft-lbs/TQ with it switched into low range it would pull 3 BMW X5s out of the mud, or climb an insane incline.

Then, you can switch over into pure EV mode, and tool around 25-30 miles on battery only, which is either cheap "around town" operation ($0.11kWh at my house), or an amazing experience on a trail, at the beach, with almost no noise.

The tuning is not designed around a constant blended use to improve mileage.  Again, by design.


----------



## AG_PhamD

DT said:


> The Wrangler 4xe hybrid system - by design - is tuned quite a bit different.  It's designed for power augmentation and running in battery only mode.
> 
> When both ICE/EV modes are active, it generates 375HP, and 470 ft-lbs/TQ, on the street that translates into a sub 5.5s 0-60, when doing some real "Jeep duty", that 470 ft-lbs/TQ with it switched into low range it would pull 3 BMW X5s out of the mud, or climb an insane incline.
> 
> Then, you can switch over into pure EV mode, and tool around 25-30 miles on battery only, which is either cheap "around town" operation ($0.11kWh at my house), or an amazing experience on a trail, at the beach, with almost no noise.
> 
> The tuning is not designed around a constant blended use to improve mileage.  Again, by design.




Does it use the pentastar or the 4cyl?

It’s cool they offer a diesel these days but last a checked (probably 1-2 years ago) it was like a $5000 option.


----------



## quagmire

For those who want to buy FSD, get it now before it goes to an even more unreasonable $12,000 on the 17th!


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> For those who want to buy FSD, get it now before it goes to an even more unreasonable $12,000 on the 17th!



Would like to get a feel for how many have actually purchased it, seems like most have not and it's hard to justify when I'm not on the road as much now. I take this to mean the subscription will also go up?


----------



## diamond.g

DT said:


> @Eric
> 
> Another neat thing with Tesla, the car has an API, so 3rd parties can develop software for it, that's how I have an Apple Watch app for it, through an app called Tessie (iOS/WatchOS).  You can set up Siri automations with it, so I can use voice to do things like open the trunk.
> 
> The iPhone app has a really nice UI as well, does this beautiful viz of the weather as an animated background:
> 
> 
> View attachment 10738
> 
> 
> Has tons of analytics, cost analysis, etc.
> 
> 
> There's other services like TeslaScope, where they do incredibly extensive analysis, can plot usage metrics onto a calendar, etc., but it also lets your car contribute version information to the central DB, which is how some of these projections about software rollouts are determined:
> 
> 
> View attachment 10739
> 
> 
> View attachment 10740



I prefer TeslaFi, but other options are just as viable.


----------



## diamond.g

Eric said:


> Would like to get a feel for how many have actually purchased it, seems like most have not and it's hard to justify when I'm not on the road as much now. I take this to mean the subscription will also go up?



I think EAP was a better value (especially considering all FSD has Added for those folk is Navigate on City Streets).
I think with all the gripes we will see Tesla eventually do what other auto makers are going to do, and have you pay some amount for the hardware then require a subscription to keep it going.


----------



## SuperMatt

All this money spent on not wanting to drive the car that supposedly has such a wonderful driving experience?

I just don’t get it. Driving a car is not that burdensome. Wasting $12K on letting the car drive you, knowing that you’ll have to be paying close attention and prepare to intervene at a moment’s notice to keep yourself from dying makes zero sense to me. I have a family member with a Tesla and we tried the auto-drive for fun. Within 5 minutes, when going around a corner, it drove into the grass and we had to take over... Yeah, I really want to cede control to it on a highway at 60+ MPH...

I love playing with new tech, but I’m not gonna put my life on the line as a beta tester and pay $12 Gs for the privilege.


----------



## DT

diamond.g said:


> I think EAP was a better value (especially considering all FSD has Added for those folk is Navigate on City Streets).
> I think with all the gripes we will see Tesla eventually do what other auto makers are going to do, and have you pay some amount for the hardware then require a subscription to keep it going.





It's too bad they don't alacarte that group of features, I'd take summon for a one time $500


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> All this money spent on not wanting to drive the car that supposedly has such a wonderful driving experience?
> 
> I just don’t get it. Driving a car is not that burdensome. Wasting $12K on letting the car drive you, knowing that you’ll have to be paying close attention and prepare to intervene at a moment’s notice to keep yourself from dying makes zero sense to me. I have a family member with a Tesla and we tried the auto-drive for fun. Within 5 minutes, when going around a corner, it drove into the grass and we had to take over... Yeah, I really want to cede control to it on a highway at 60+ MPH...
> 
> I love playing with new tech, but I’m not gonna put my life on the line as a beta tester and pay $12 Gs for the privilege.





DT said:


> It's too bad they don't alacarte that group of features, I'd take summon for a one time $500



TBF, it's more convenient for me to walk to my car than to worry about damage control if my car hits something, or even worse, someone.


----------



## DT

diamond.g said:


> I prefer TeslaFi, but other options are just as viable.




I've been meaning to give that app a try too, I'm not totally all in on Tessie just yet - honestly, my main motivation was a Watch App and Siri automations - mostly to open the trunk!

I want a "grocery mode", you set it, it leaves the AC on, but it also keeps the rear cameras running and when you approach the car and kind of wave your arms ... the trunk opens


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> TBF, it's more convenient for me to walk to my car than to worry about damage control if my car hits something, or even worse, someone.




My use case would strictly be for exiting the garage (but I get your point).


----------



## DT

AG_PhamD said:


> Does it use the pentastar or the 4cyl?
> 
> It’s cool they offer a diesel these days but last a checked (probably 1-2 years ago) it was like a $5000 option.




It uses the 2L turbo 4, it's basically the same engine used in the ICE versions - mated to their ubiquitous (and pretty stellar) 8-speed automatic.  There's a high power motor and interestingly, it uses a second, much smaller motor in place of a torque converter, it also doubles as the starter.

We picked up the little G from school in it yesterday (since the Tesla is currently under the weather ), tooled up to the Old City got dinner, all battery, really nice, it's been getting a bit more use in general to kind of balance out Tesla use (and since we put the top back on, it's a little more flexible).


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> I've been meaning to give that app a try too, I'm not totally all in on Tessie just yet - honestly, my main motivation was a Watch App and Siri automations - mostly to open the trunk!
> 
> I want a "grocery mode", you set it, it leaves the AC on, but it also keeps the rear cameras running and when you approach the car and kind of wave your arms ... the trunk opens



And turns on the fart mode, but only on your wife's side. 



DT said:


> My use case would strictly be for exiting the garage (but I get your point).



Fair point. Garages are rare where I live. I cannot see myself living the suburban life.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> And turns on the fart mode, but only on your wife's side.
> 
> 
> Fair point. Garages are rare where I live. I cannot see myself living the suburban life.




Farts are funny.

Yeah, we couldn't do like "regular" suburbs, an organized "plan", and HMOs can mostly fuck right off.  Beach areas are like their own thing, it's like loose suburban + rural (if that makes sense).

We constantly knock around the idea of a major move, probably towards to the North East ... like Ontario


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Farts are funny.
> 
> Yeah, we couldn't do like "regular" suburbs, an organized "plan", and HMOs can mostly fuck right off.  Beach areas are like their own thing, it's like loose suburban + rural (if that makes sense).
> 
> We constantly knock around the idea of a major move, probably towards to the North East ... like Ontario



I am like a little kid so this part of the update had me out there laughing my ass off, my wife came out and saw what I was doing then rolled her eyes and went back into the house. We need a mod here that will allow you to play the fart sounds through the megaphone, now THAT is an update I would pay for.


----------



## DT

I megaphoned the neighbor the other day, hahahaha


----------



## Eric

Tying it to the blinker is comedy gold!


----------



## lizkat

^^^     So I'm not as grown-up as I may have thought...


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> ^^^     So I'm not as grown-up as I may have thought...



When I was a teenager my mom told me she would know when I had grown up when I no long found farts funny.  

Told her I wasn't ever going to grow up then. Still haven't.


----------



## DT

@TeslaPeople ...

Got my jacking pucks - they stink.  I mean, literally, they have a strong rubber smell, I've sure you've encountered products like this, zero issues, it will dissipate, they come in a net type bag, they're hanging in the garage.

I did a test install, just terrific.  The o-ring makes it stay in the jacking spot hands free, then you can just roll your jack underneath and go to it.  I didn't actually lift the car, I'll do that tomorrow for the new tire.

It was this product, and currently 10% off (so only ~$18):



			https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0924LB1T6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## DT

I'm also about 98% ready to pull the trigger on one of these:









						For All 2017-2023 Tesla Model 3 Trim Levels - Spare Tire And Complete Accessory Kit Options
					

Finally! A carefully engineered complete spare tire kit for your Model 3. Alloy, compact. AWD, Performance, Long-range. Search by Make, Model




					modernspare.com
				




Full kit with the wheel/tire, jack/tools and case.  It won't fit in the frunk, __but__ you can put something else up there to somewhat offset the space it takes in the trunk.  When we do a lot of our "regular" trips, we typically have 3 rollers, and 2 backpacks.  If it's a Universal trip we take our larger cooler which fits nicely into the trunk well (almost flush), so we could do spare kit, 2 rollers, cooler, 3rd roller in the frunk and all other bags, plushies, etc., in the interior (which is really roomy, and we only have one person in the back seat).


----------



## User.45

Best demonstration of the Ioniq 5's back seats. Pretty amazing.


----------



## Citysnaps

P_X said:


> Best demonstration of the Ioniq 5's back seats. Pretty amazing.




That looks pretty interesting - the tech and styling.  

What are your (and other's) thoughts about the Ioniq 5?


----------



## SuperMatt

citypix said:


> That looks pretty interesting - the tech and styling.
> 
> What are your (and other's) thoughts about the Ioniq 5?



If I needed a car, it would be near the top of my list. It has plenty of room, plenty of range, and the build quality looks much better than the biggest EV maker at the moment..


----------



## DT

citypix said:


> That looks pretty interesting - the tech and styling.
> 
> What are your (and other's) thoughts about the Ioniq 5?




It's a solid entry into the EV market, Hyundai has been killing it for decades.  It has a few neat features like 800V tech (really more of a future tech), I dig on the styling, it fills a good spot with pretty good cargo space without being an SUV.  RWD and AWD options, which is cool for covering different price segments.

Pretty good charging rate, pretty good range, acceptable performance, good entry points on the lower and higher end.

Right now, my preferences in performance, range, charging network still favors Tesla, but it's good enough for a consideration, not unlike the VW ID.4


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> It's a solid entry into the EV market, Hyundai has been killing it for decades.  It has a few neat features like 800V tech (really more of a future tech), I dig on the styling, it fills a good spot with pretty good cargo space without being an SUV.  RWD and AWD options, which is cool for covering different price segments.
> 
> Pretty good charging rate, pretty good range, acceptable performance, good entry points on the lower and higher end.
> 
> Right now, my preferences in performance, range, charging network still favors Tesla, but it's good enough for a consideration, not unlike the VW ID.4



Hyundai also purchased Boston Dynamics so it looks like they're making a serious play into the tech arena. It's nice to see them all making the foray into this, it's only a matter of time before the internal combustion engine becomes a thing of the past.


----------



## User.45

citypix said:


> That looks pretty interesting - the tech and styling.
> 
> What are your (and other's) thoughts about the Ioniq 5?



I’m almost decided to sell my i3 and replace it with the ioniq 5. It seems to be the ideal family car with it's rolling, reclining back seats. 
What both Ioniq 5 and ID.4 got right is their panoramic roofs having a rolling shade.  The fact that the Ioniq 5s center console can roll back and forward means I can enter/exit using the passenger door when parking on busy streets wo compromising the utility of the back seats. 

I love the look, except for the Hyundai logo. They need to switch up that logo to something symmetrical, because its asymmetry breaks any design. Limited version (rolling center console, Bose sound system, panoramic roof, etc) Costs about $52K - $7.5 federal incentive. AWD is $4K extra on this trim and comes with a heat pump. I think that's not worth it, unless you really want the performance.

M3's price is comparable and it seems like a better enthusiast car, but the IQ5 sounds like a better family car. The extended range ID.4 looks pretty good too, but the dealbreaker there is the ridiculously choppy GUI. The IQ5's Bose system is reportedly super mediocre though. That's where it's KIA EV6 cousin sounds better equipped (14 speaker Meridian vs 7.1 Bose).


----------



## Citysnaps

P_X said:


> I’m almost decided to sell my i3 and replace it with the ioniq 5. It seems to be the ideal family car with it's rolling, reclining back seats.
> What both Ioniq 5 and ID.4 got right is their panoramic roofs having a rolling shade.  The fact that the Ioniq 5s center console can roll back and forward means I can enter/exit using the passenger door when parking on busy streets wo compromising the utility of the back seats.
> 
> I love the look, except for the Hyundai logo. They need to switch up that logo to something symmetrical, because its asymmetry breaks any design. Limited version (rolling center console, Bose sound system, panoramic roof, etc) Costs about $52K - $7.5 federal incentive. AWD is $4K extra on this trim and comes with a heat pump. I think that's not worth it, unless you really want the performance.
> 
> M3's price is comparable and it seems like a better enthusiast car, but the IQ5 sounds like a better family car. The extended range ID.4 looks pretty good too, but the dealbreaker there is the ridiculously choppy GUI. The IQ5's Bose system is reportedly super mediocre though. That's where it's KIA EV6 cousin sounds better equipped (14 speaker Meridian vs 7.1 Bose).




Thanx for your thoughts - appreciate it!

Think I'd pass on AWD, not living in snow country. Have it now on a Highlander, which I believes helps in rain. Need to think on that more.  What's the heat pump for?

I like the size, style, and the room when the rear seats are folded down. And interior materials. Fast charging is interesting, though that no doubt requires special charging stations that are likely rare right now. I'm not  up to speed on public and driver-owned charging stations yet. I already have two 220v 50amp circuits; one in the garage, another outside. Though not enough for fast charging, hopefully that would be enough for above average charging.


----------



## User.45

citypix said:


> Think I'd pass on AWD, not living in snow country. Have it now on a Highlander, which I believes helps in rain. Need to think on that more.  What's the heat pump for?



Where you live, it could help climb up hills, but I doubt it would be otherwise super useful. 
Heatpump: EVs use resistive heating which eats a lot of energy and hinders range greatly. The heat pump uses the extra heat produced by the battery and pushes it into the cabin. The car keeps the Battery at 77F and reportedly it can pull heat from there to temps as low as 20F. So it saves range, but kicks in only once the battery is at optimal temp. 



citypix said:


> Fast charging is interesting, though that no doubt requires special charging stations that are likely rare right now. I'm not  up to speed on public and driver-owned charging stations yet. I already have two 220v 50amp circuits; one in the garage, another outside. Though not enough for fast charging, hopefully that would be enough for above average charging.



It all depends what you're gonna use it for. My Level 1 home 110V outlet could charge my I3 60mi overnight. So if you have any plug access at home, you don't need special equipment to keep the car topped up just fine. DC fast charging is mainly relevant for roadtrips. If you're in no rush but on the go, you can use the car as a lounge (or office) while charging, so charging isn't time wasted. The recliner mode on the seats is really smart. 

I'll add that I made a lot of calculations and a Model Y would cost me $300 more on a 5year loan and for that money, I could just rent another car if I needed more capacity or wanted a roadtrip...or use the differential for my kids' college fund.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> Where you live, it could help climb up hills, but I doubt it would be otherwise super useful.
> Heatpump: EVs use resistive heating which eats a lot of energy and hinders range greatly. The heat pump uses the extra heat produced by the battery and pushes it into the cabin. The car keeps the Battery at 77F and reportedly it can pull heat from there to temps as low as 20F. So it saves range, but kicks in only once the battery is at optimal temp.



I bought the model of my VW e-golf without the heat pump, and when it’s cold, the heater runs the battery down pretty fast. So I feel like that is one option I should have taken. But I just use the heated seats instead when I need extra range… even if my hands get a bit cold.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I bought the model of my VW e-golf without the heat pump, and when it’s cold, the heater runs the battery down pretty fast. So I feel like that is one option I should have taken. But I just use the heated seats instead when I need extra range… even if my hands get a bit cold.



Yep. It's tempting but it doesn't get too cold around here to be worth the $4K. The range loss from the AWD cancels out the range gain from the heat pump.


----------



## DT

citypix said:


> I like the size, style, and the room when the rear seats are folded down. And interior materials. Fast charging is interesting, though that no doubt requires special charging stations that are likely rare right now. I'm not  up to speed on public and driver-owned charging stations yet. I already have two 220v 50amp circuits; one in the garage, another outside. Though not enough for fast charging, hopefully that would be enough for above average charging.




DCFC (DC Fast Charging) is a consideration for travel, in particular if your destination is out of single charge range, or you don't have a way to charge at home (or work) in any capacity.

If you've got a 50a (or a few) at home, you're golden.  Generally you'll want to charge at ~80% of the max rating of the circuit, so for those 50a circuits, that would be 40a, and outlets (vs. a hardwire setup) have a max spec of 50a which is why you see 40a plugin style chargers (which are technically called an EVSE, it's basically a switch, the charger is built into the car).

Those 50a outlets should either be an N6-50 (3-prong, 240v only), an an N14-50 (4-prong, 2-phase that can support 120 and 240).  Either is fine as you'd only be using 240v anyway.  Depending on the car, you should be able to get up to 36-37 miles per hour charging rate on those outlets with a 40a Level 2 charger.  The thing with a BEV, is you "refuel" incrementally, it's a totally different use model vs. an ICE vehicle.

Like if I drive over to the Apple store and back, when I get home, I'll plugin and the battery loss for that ~70 mile round trip is replenished in ~1:55 (for comparison a Supercharger would take about 7-8 minutes )

If you want to get a good sense of the public charging situation, Level 2 destination chargers (which are basically like 40a home chargers) and DCFC stations (Tesla Superchargers, Electrify America, etc.) I'd highly suggest checking out A Better Route Planner:






						ABRP
					






					abetterrouteplanner.com
				




It's a free service, there's an App, web UI, there's a paid tier that will actually use your car's data to better prediction, but you can plot routes for travel, select a car, see what kind of time, charging costs you might encounter.

Again, this is a place where Tesla just kills it, our common route to Orlando International has like 8 convenient Supercharger locations (a couple at great stop spots like a Wawa), and only 1 non-Telsa DCFC.  Apparently Tesla is going to open up Superchargers to non-Tesla vehicles which would really change things a good bit, time will tell, they'll need some kind of CSS retrofit to stations, or new CSS only stations, things will only improve in this area.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.45

theSeb said:


> I test drove one back in September and posted about it. In the end I ordered one because I feel it's the best non Tesla option out for there for an EV at the moment. The styling and the fast charging is what won me over in the end. The price is decent too (in the UK)



Ohhh I totally missed this








						ICE Vehicles:  General topics
					

.




					talkedabout.com


----------



## DT

Here's a good article on 22 "most anticipated" EVs for 2022, though many of these won't realistically see a release till at least '23:









						22 of the most anticipated electric vehicles coming in 2022
					

A list of some of the most exciting or interesting electric vehicles currently planned to arrive sometime in 2022, along with details...




					electrek.co


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> DCFC (DC Fast Charging) is a consideration for travel, in particular if your destination is out of single charge range, or you don't have a way to charge at home (or work) in any capacity.
> 
> If you've got a 50a (or a few) at home, you're golden.  Generally you'll want to charge at ~80% of the max rating of the circuit, so for those 50a circuits, that would be 40a, and outlets (vs. a hardwire setup) have a max spec of 50a which is why you see 40a plugin style chargers (which are technically called an EVSE, it's basically a switch, the charger is built into the car).
> 
> Those 50a outlets should either be an N6-50 (3-prong, 240v only), an an N14-50 (4-prong, 2-phase that can support 120 and 240).  Either is fine as you'd only be using 240v anyway.  Depending on the car, you should be able to get up to 36-37 miles per hour charging rate on those outlets with a 40a Level 2 charger.  The thing with a BEV, is you "refuel" incrementally, it's a totally different use model vs. an ICE vehicle.
> 
> Like if I drive over to the Apple store and back, when I get home, I'll plugin and the battery loss for that ~70 mile round trip is replenished in ~1:55 (for comparison a Supercharger would take about 7-8 minutes )
> 
> If you want to get a good sense of the public charging situation, Level 2 destination chargers (which are basically like 40a home chargers) and DCFC stations (Tesla Superchargers, Electrify America, etc.) I'd highly suggest checking out A Better Route Planner:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABRP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abetterrouteplanner.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a free service, there's an App, web UI, there's a paid tier that will actually use your car's data to better prediction, but you can plot routes for travel, select a car, see what kind of time, charging costs you might encounter.
> 
> Again, this is a place where Tesla just kills it, our common route to Orlando International has like 8 convenient Supercharger locations (a couple at great stop spots like a Wawa), and only 1 non-Telsa DCFC.  Apparently Tesla is going to open up Superchargers to non-Tesla vehicles which would really change things a good bit, time will tell, they'll need some kind of CSS retrofit to stations, or new CSS only stations, things will only improve in this area.



Good info on all of these things, I have downloaded both abettertripplanner and PugShare as contingencies. One of my wife's concerns is running low and not being able to find charging but I let her know you would essentially need to be in the middle of a desert somewhere for that to happen, or at the very least be a terrible planner and ignore all the warnings from your car.

If not Tesla, there are charging stations literally everywhere in front of stores, etc., worst case is you have to wait a little longer at a slower charger but you can just take what you need to get to your superchargers anyway. I had no idea how many there were until I started looking.

But with home charging, even at 30 MPH, I'll be able to easily fill up overnight. Unless I have a trip planned it's unlikely I'll need to charge on the outside anyway but it's reassuring seeing so many places to do it.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> Good info on all of these things, I have downloaded both abettertripplanner and PugShare as contingencies. One of my wife's concerns is running low and not being able to find charging but I let her know you would essentially need to be in the middle of a desert somewhere for that to happen, or at the very least be a terrible planner and ignore all the warnings from your car.
> 
> If not Tesla, there are charging stations literally everywhere in front of stores, etc., worst case is you have to wait a little longer at a slower charger but you can just take what you need to get to your superchargers anyway. I had no idea how many there were until I started looking.
> 
> But with home charging, even at 30 MPH, I'll be able to easily fill up overnight. Unless I have a trip planned it's unlikely I'll need to charge on the outside anyway but it's reassuring seeing so many places to do it.



Yes, range anxiety is non-existent if you can charge at home and do your bidding in a 50mi radius.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> Here's a good article on 22 "most anticipated" EVs for 2022, though many of these won't realistically see a release till at least '23:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 22 of the most anticipated electric vehicles coming in 2022
> 
> 
> A list of some of the most exciting or interesting electric vehicles currently planned to arrive sometime in 2022, along with details...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> electrek.co



Many of these appear already obsolete. I think the new standard minimum range is 250. Mazda's MX30 with 100 mi? It such a harsh miscalculation it's impressive. 



DT said:


> DCFC (DC Fast Charging) is a consideration for travel, in particular if your destination is out of single charge range, or you don't have a way to charge at home (or work) in any capacity.
> 
> If you've got a 50a (or a few) at home, you're golden.  Generally you'll want to charge at ~80% of the max rating of the circuit, so for those 50a circuits, that would be 40a, and outlets (vs. a hardwire setup) have a max spec of 50a which is why you see 40a plugin style chargers (which are technically called an EVSE, it's basically a switch, the charger is built into the car).
> 
> Those 50a outlets should either be an N6-50 (3-prong, 240v only), an an N14-50 (4-prong, 2-phase that can support 120 and 240).  Either is fine as you'd only be using 240v anyway.  Depending on the car, you should be able to get up to 36-37 miles per hour charging rate on those outlets with a 40a Level 2 charger.  The thing with a BEV, is you "refuel" incrementally, it's a totally different use model vs. an ICE vehicle.
> 
> Like if I drive over to the Apple store and back, when I get home, I'll plugin and the battery loss for that ~70 mile round trip is replenished in ~1:55 (for comparison a Supercharger would take about 7-8 minutes )
> 
> If you want to get a good sense of the public charging situation, Level 2 destination chargers (which are basically like 40a home chargers) and DCFC stations (Tesla Superchargers, Electrify America, etc.) I'd highly suggest checking out A Better Route Planner:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABRP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abetterrouteplanner.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a free service, there's an App, web UI, there's a paid tier that will actually use your car's data to better prediction, but you can plot routes for travel, select a car, see what kind of time, charging costs you might encounter.
> 
> Again, this is a place where Tesla just kills it, our common route to Orlando International has like 8 convenient Supercharger locations (a couple at great stop spots like a Wawa), and only 1 non-Telsa DCFC.  Apparently Tesla is going to open up Superchargers to non-Tesla vehicles which would really change things a good bit, time will tell, they'll need some kind of CSS retrofit to stations, or new CSS only stations, things will only improve in this area.



Thanks for the planner. It looks pretty phenomenal. 



theSeb said:


> I test drove one back in September and posted about it. In the end I ordered one because I feel it's the best non Tesla option out for there for an EV at the moment. The styling and the fast charging is what won me over in the end. The price is decent too (in the UK)




So what made you settle with the IQ5 if you hated the seat that much? I think we the same height issues...That 90-95th percentile in height appears right at the cut-off point of design ergonomics where furniture is a major hit or miss.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## DT

Oh yeah, PlugShare is good too, especially for getting the low-down on specific destination chargers.  People rate them, post photos, it was through PlugShare where I discovered the L2 chargers at two resorts we frequent, plus amazing, out-of-the-way parking   It's kind of like Yelp for EV chargers


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Eric

theSeb said:


> The paid option for ABRP also gives you access to Apple Carplay, so you can use it directly on the vehicle's screen. Personally I think I will continue to use Waze for navigation (the mobile speed trap reports are impossible to beat and I would not drive anywhere without it) and use ABRP to plan out the route.
> 
> And I was about to mention the other useful app, Plugshare, but I see @DT beat me to it.



I have always been a fan of waze but they've implemented some "calming" feature where they say "now take a deep breath" type of thing every single time it gives instructions, I dug around for an option to turn it off and finally just said fuck it and quit using the app entirely, very annoying and should be something you need to opt in for. When not using the default with Tesla now, I stick with Apple Maps.


----------



## DT

theSeb said:


> This made me realise just how old and boring the basic X3 shape is and the fact that apart from extra tat, it hasn't actually changed all that much in nearly two decades.




Yeah, they're still holding on to / sharing a lot of ICE design elements.  Makes sense from a company standpoint, but leaves the consumer with something that doesn't feel as fresh as the ground up EV designs.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Citysnaps

DT said:


> DCFC (DC Fast Charging) is a consideration for travel, in particular if your destination is out of single charge range, or you don't have a way to charge at home (or work) in any capacity.
> 
> If you've got a 50a (or a few) at home, you're golden.  Generally you'll want to charge at ~80% of the max rating of the circuit, so for those 50a circuits, that would be 40a, and outlets (vs. a hardwire setup) have a max spec of 50a which is why you see 40a plugin style chargers (which are technically called an EVSE, it's basically a switch, the charger is built into the car).
> 
> Those 50a outlets should either be an N6-50 (3-prong, 240v only), an an N14-50 (4-prong, 2-phase that can support 120 and 240).  Either is fine as you'd only be using 240v anyway.  Depending on the car, you should be able to get up to 36-37 miles per hour charging rate on those outlets with a 40a Level 2 charger.  The thing with a BEV, is you "refuel" incrementally, it's a totally different use model vs. an ICE vehicle.
> 
> Like if I drive over to the Apple store and back, when I get home, I'll plugin and the battery loss for that ~70 mile round trip is replenished in ~1:55 (for comparison a Supercharger would take about 7-8 minutes )
> 
> If you want to get a good sense of the public charging situation, Level 2 destination chargers (which are basically like 40a home chargers) and DCFC stations (Tesla Superchargers, Electrify America, etc.) I'd highly suggest checking out A Better Route Planner:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABRP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abetterrouteplanner.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a free service, there's an App, web UI, there's a paid tier that will actually use your car's data to better prediction, but you can plot routes for travel, select a car, see what kind of time, charging costs you might encounter.
> 
> Again, this is a place where Tesla just kills it, our common route to Orlando International has like 8 convenient Supercharger locations (a couple at great stop spots like a Wawa), and only 1 non-Telsa DCFC.  Apparently Tesla is going to open up Superchargers to non-Tesla vehicles which would really change things a good bit, time will tell, they'll need some kind of CSS retrofit to stations, or new CSS only stations, things will only improve in this area.




Thanks for the tips and information - that'll get me started.  Appreciate it!


----------



## DT

theSeb said:


> Agreed. On a similar note, I spotted the new BMW IX when we were driving up to Scotland just after Xmas. It's the first one I've seen in the flesh. I have to admit that it looks a lot better than in the photos and the videos. I realise that isn't exactly a great endorsement, since it looks like some kind of monstrosity in pictures, in my opinion.
> 
> On the roads when I didn't have to endure the front grill it actually looked almost nice from the side, rear and rear 3/4 views.




I really like the general design, some of the details, but it is hard to look past that butterface.  And then they used if for their EV design, which not only makes it homely __but__ also doesn't even make any sense.

I think most enthusiasts would agree the M4 is a stellar sports coupe, but even the technically execution get overshadowed by this ...







For reference, the previous model M4:


----------



## cloudflare420

Has anyone tried to charge on these GE level 2 chargers before? We have them at a few different Whole Foods around here and they never work. Constantly cycling on and off. The Tesla just hates them.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Eric

cloudflare420 said:


> Has anyone tried to charge on these GE level 2 chargers before? We have them at a few different Whole Foods around here and they never work. Constantly cycling on and off. The Tesla just hates them.



Not sure what they say on the front but I pulled up to one a couple of weeks ago and the message on it said it still needed to be setup and configured, it was unusable.


----------



## lizkat

The thing about having an API, well...  I guess it's good it can't do "just anything" like with steering or braking etc...









						Teen hacker finds bug that lets him control 25+ Teslas remotely
					

David Colombo says it's the owners' faults, not an infrastructure vulnerability.




					arstechnica.com
				






> David Colombo explained in the thread that the flaw was "not a vulnerability in Tesla's infrastructure. It's the owner's faults[sic]." He claimed to be able to disable a car's remote camera system, unlock doors and open windows, and even begin keyless driving. He could also determine the car's exact location.
> 
> However, Colombo clarified that he could not actually interact with any of the Teslas' steering, throttle, or brakes, so at least we don't have to worry about an army of remote-controlled EVs doing a _Fate of the Furious_ reenactment.
> 
> Colombo says he reported the issue to Tesla's security team, which is investigating the matter.
> 
> On a related note, early on Wednesday morning, a third-party Tesla app called TezLab reported that it saw the "simultaneous expiry of several thousand Tesla authentication tokens from Tesla's side." TezLab's app makes use of Tesla APIs that allow apps to do things like log in to the car and enable or disable the anti-theft camera system, unlock the doors, open the windows, and so on.


----------



## DT

lizkat said:


> The thing about having an API, well...  I guess it's good it can't do "just anything" like with steering or braking etc...




Yeah, certainly a "connected" car introduces some additional complexities, so you really have to understand the implications of owning one.  For example:  if you're worried, don't generate any tokens for 3rd parties (which was likely the attack vector) and use really strong passwords + 2FA.  If you're really worried, turn off remote access.


----------



## DT

DT said:


> Yeah, certainly a "connected" car introduces some additional complexities, so you really have to understand the implications of owning one.  For example:  if you're worried, don't generate any tokens for 3rd parties (which was likely the attack vector) and use really strong passwords + 2FA.  If you're really worried, turn off remote access.





Just to follow up on this:  the attack vector was through an open source app called TeslaMate, it's a data logger you connect to your Tesla.  One of the options is to host it yourself, either through your own server setup or as a complete  Docker image, and OOTB, it's notoriously "loose" on security, and some people just toss it up on a free cloud app service.

So basically a few people running this, exposed an API key to their car.


----------



## DT

No idea if this will make it to production, final specs, pricing, distribution and service network ... just that it's a really nice looking execution (love the side "mirrors"):











The most shocking thing about this EV is the manufacturer:  Sony


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> No idea if this will make it to production, final specs, pricing, distribution and service network ... just that it's a really nice looking execution (love the side "mirrors"):
> 
> View attachment 11002
> 
> View attachment 11003
> 
> 
> 
> The most shocking thing about this EV is the manufacturer:  Sony



Right now I have a Sony TV and a Sony mirrorless camera, both are excellent quality. If this thing is even close it should be an awesome car.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Right now I have a Sony TV and a Sony mirrorless camera, both are excellent quality. If this thing is even close it should be an awesome car.




I just love the idea of the vehicle market opening up to all these new players, who even just 10 years ago you would've said, "Sony?  You're crazy."  I think cars are becoming a little more modular too, Sony can source the "skateboard" with a certain spec (battery, form factor), and do all the finishing implementation, and capitalize on the elements that are unique to Sony's strengths - like you said, electronics, optics, video.


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> I just love the idea of the vehicle market opening up to all these new players, who even just 10 years ago you would've said, "Sony?  You're crazy."  I think cars are becoming a little more modular too, Sony can source the "skateboard" with a certain spec (battery, form factor), and do all the finishing implementation, and capitalize on the elements that are unique to Sony's strengths - like you said, electronics, optics, video.



Cars appear to be moving into the tech sector and it has opened up a lot of opportunity. I know Apple is getting on board now but it feels like they lost the opportunity to get in at the ground level, as they did in with home automation, so now they'll have to deal with all the competition on a level playing field. In any case it's good for the consumer to see them all get in on it.


----------



## cloudflare420

DT said:


> No idea if this will make it to production, final specs, pricing, distribution and service network ... just that it's a really nice looking execution (love the side "mirrors"):
> 
> View attachment 11002
> 
> View attachment 11003
> 
> 
> 
> The most shocking thing about this EV is the manufacturer:  Sony



What a cool looking EV!

Maybe this will bring Sony back to its former glory.


----------



## Citysnaps

DT said:


> I just love the idea of the vehicle market opening up to all these new players, who even just 10 years ago you would've said, "Sony?  You're crazy."  I think cars are becoming a little more modular too, Sony can source the "skateboard" with a certain spec (battery, form factor), and do all the finishing implementation, and capitalize on the elements that are unique to Sony's strengths - like you said, electronics, optics, video.




Speaking of batteries, I'm looking forward to seeing companies moving forward using new battery technologies/chemistries. Lithium-Sulfur, comes to mind. Watch for it.


----------



## DT

citypix said:


> Speaking of batteries, I'm looking forward to seeing companies moving forward using new battery technologies/chemistries. Lithium-Sulfur, comes to mind. Watch for it.




Yes!  I've been following Lyten and a couple other notable players in the Li-S battery space for a while.  I really think there's going to be a major battery tech breakthrough in the very near future  - specifically for consumer products - and 400-500 mile ranges will be as common as 20-30 for ICE vehicles.


----------



## Citysnaps

DT said:


> Yes!  I've been following Lyten and a couple other notable players in the Li-S battery space for a while.  I really think there's going to be a major battery tech breakthrough in the very near future  - specifically for consumer products - and 400-500 mile ranges will be as common as 20-30 for ICE vehicles.




Lyten is the real deal. I've been assuming they've been in discussions with Apple.


----------



## Herdfan

Never thought about school buses, but it would make sense.  They come back to the same place every night so charging would be easy.  Plus plenty of room for batteries.









						Kanawha County students ride on new electric school buses
					

It may not be too long before some of these buses are seen on the roads in West Virginia.




					www.wsaz.com
				




Probably need to keep a couple of diesels around for longer trips, but the rest of them could be electric.


----------



## cloudflare420

Ran the battery down to 2% for the first time. You could feel the motors not getting full power. Felt slower than chill mode

17 hours to get from 2%-100% on a 24A L2


----------



## Eric

cloudflare420 said:


> Ran the battery down to 2% for the first time. You could feel the motors not getting full power. Felt slower than chill mode



Wow that's brave, you must have been near a charger I take it? 

I let mine get down to 15% wile cruising around with my buddy and my wife called to tell me I needed to charge because she got an alert. Man, I remember when backseat drivers had actually be in the car.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> Never thought about school buses, but it would make sense.  They come back to the same place every night so charging would be easy.  Plus plenty of room for batteries.
> 
> Probably need to keep a couple of diesels around for longer trips, but the rest of them could be electric.




School buses are a terrific use case, like you indicated, a known route ending in a specific location, an EV would mean no emissions.  low-to-no noise which is great when you've got a fleet of them waiting for afternoon rides.




cloudflare420 said:


> Ran the battery down to 2% for the first time. You could feel the motors not getting full power. Felt slower than chill mode
> 
> 17 hours to get from 2%-100% on a 24A L2




Hahaha, yeah, 24a is 20-22 miles/hour rate, __and__ the 0%-20% and 80%-100% is a good bit slower than that (especially the 90-100%).


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> I let mine get down to 15% wile cruising around with my buddy and my wife called to tell me I needed to charge because she got an alert. Man, I remember when backseat drivers had actually be in the car.




The first time the wife took the Tesla out (like not just a quick "test drive"), she was with the daughter at the salon, and I was still nerding out over the app and checking out the car remotely.  It was like July, and I saw the super high temps in the car, so before they got back in, I vented the windows, then closed them and fired up the AC to max.   I love that someone else can actually give you a hand, or even grant you access to the car in a pinch.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Never thought about school buses, but it would make sense.  They come back to the same place every night so charging would be easy.  Plus plenty of room for batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kanawha County students ride on new electric school buses
> 
> 
> It may not be too long before some of these buses are seen on the roads in West Virginia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsaz.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably need to keep a couple of diesels around for longer trips, but the rest of them could be electric.



I have seen some electric city buses in DC…









						Meet the Fleet - Washington D.C. Circulator
					

Our new vehicles offer the latest in comfort and technology!   Wider doors, larger windows, community seating and increased standing room help make the entire ride easy and comfortable for all. Charge up with USB ports near almost every seat. Connect with free public Wi-Fi on all new buses. Get...




					www.dccirculator.com
				












						Proterra Catalyst E2 Bus Debuts: 350 Miles Of Real World Range Via 660 kWh Battery
					

Proterra has unveiled the longest range, 40-foot bus to hit the market to date, the Catalyst E2. A 660 kWh battery gives the electric bus 350 miles of range




					insideevs.com


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> The first time the wife took the Tesla out (like not just a quick "test drive"), she was with the daughter at the salon, and I was still nerding out over the app and checking out the car remotely.  It was like July, and I saw the super high temps in the car, so before they got back in, I vented the windows, then closed them and fired up the AC to max.   I love that someone else can actually give you a hand, or even grant you access to the car in a pinch.



Me (from the couch) when my wife walks into the kitchen "Alexa, turn on kitchen". We just give and give for our families, don't we?


----------



## cloudflare420

They really need to add some user profiles in the mobile app. If I'm preheating the car, it shouldn't send out a mass push notification to every user.


----------



## AG_PhamD

I’m sure there will be many people angry at me for posting this but:








						EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports points to some problem areas
					

From assembly related issues on Tesla models to electronics and drive-system issues in other vehicles, EVs are more trouble-prone, according to the consumer advocacy organization.




					www.greencarreports.com
				





> In a reliability survey published last November, _Consumer Report_s named electric SUVs the least-reliable vehicle type. Now _CR_ has followed that up with a report shedding light on specific problem areas.
> 
> On average, EVs have significantly higher problem rates than internal-combustion vehicles across model years 2019 and 2020, according to _CR's_ data. That improved somewhat for 2021, but certain models still showed high rates of problems, according to the report.






> In all cases, the important point is not just that these problems occur, but that they occur at a higher rate than in comparable internal-combustion vehicles. Despite that, _CR_found high rates of owner satisfaction, indicating that many EV owners aren't too worried about reliability issues.




Consumer Reports currently ranks Tesla 26th in reliability, 2nd to worse. All 4 models are currently marked as reliability issues, with the Y “much worse than average”.

I suspect a lot of this has to do with many EV models being so new, not to mention new technology, and relatively low volume that the kinks haven’t been worked out. I suspect there are a lot of attempts at cost cutting too to try and keep costs down.

Tesla on the other hand has established technology and hasn’t had such bad reliability ratings in the past, so maybe just hasty production in an effort to get as many cars out the door?

————

Not sure if anyone has talked about this yet, not exactly a new car but I think the Polestar 2 is a gorgeous looking vehicle. They recently put a dealer in very close to me but I haven’t seen more than a couple on the road.





Unfortunately the AWD model only gets 250mi range (270 w/FWD). It’s slightly slower than Model 3 LR AWD, but fairly closely priced for similarly equipped models (~$51k after tax credit). The options are heinously expensive on the Polestar. Volvo has pretty good autonomous features but Tesla definitely has the upper hand. The Polestar warranty is also only 4yr/50k B2B + 8yr/100k on the battery only. Tesla is 8yr/120k on the battery + motors. The interior is a little bland- it doesn’t look nearly as nice as it’s relative Volvo models, but I could live with it.

It seems hard to justify spending the same amount of money on a car that gets 100 miles less range, doesn’t have supercharging, etc. If they could keep the price similar and up the range to at least ~325mi, it could be a compelling alternative to the sea of Model 3’s.

I’m also not sure where Polestar fits into the Volvo family considering Volvo is quickly moving towards EV’s themselves with the XC40 recharge and allegedly 3 new EV’s over the next 3 years.


----------



## quagmire

Not angry, but guess you can put me down towards not having much faith in these reports.

Just reading subreddits relating to Tesla, it just reveals to me how ignorant( putting it nicely) people can be towards their own car. And this ignorance probably plays some influence in how they answer any reliability/quality surveys. Now that the temps are dropping, the subreddits are littered with, " My Tesla's air pressure is showing amber, what does it mean!?!?!" It means fill your damn tires up with air..... Not only can they not comprehend that, they don't even know the recommended inflation and just go off what they set in their previous cars. Or for those that just bought the fastest model possible because, " Ooooo fast!!!" are now going, " My Tesla is unsafe in the snow!" Well no crap, you still have the summer tires on the vehicle!

I bet Tesla will get hit hard shortly again after V11's release because people don't like the UI change and down mark Tesla there too.....

When it comes to Tesla's, I would only put faith in build quality scores. Every thing else, I would tend to be skeptical on.....


----------



## SuperMatt

AG_PhamD said:


> I’m sure there will be many people angry at me for posting this but:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports points to some problem areas
> 
> 
> From assembly related issues on Tesla models to electronics and drive-system issues in other vehicles, EVs are more trouble-prone, according to the consumer advocacy organization.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.greencarreports.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Consumer Reports currently ranks Tesla 26th in reliability, 2nd to worse. All 4 models are currently marked as reliability issues, with the Y “much worse than average”.
> 
> I suspect a lot of this has to do with many EV models being so new, not to mention new technology, and relatively low volume that the kinks haven’t been worked out. I suspect there are a lot of attempts at cost cutting too to try and keep costs down.
> 
> Tesla on the other hand has established technology and hasn’t had such bad reliability ratings in the past, so maybe just hasty production in an effort to get as many cars out the door?
> 
> ————
> 
> Not sure if anyone has talked about this yet, not exactly a new car but I think the Polestar 2 is a gorgeous looking vehicle. They recently put a dealer in very close to me but I haven’t seen more than a couple on the road.
> 
> View attachment 11033
> 
> Unfortunately the AWD model only gets 250mi range (270 w/FWD). It’s slightly slower than Model 3 LR AWD, but fairly closely priced for similarly equipped models (~$51k after tax credit). The options are heinously expensive on the Polestar. Volvo has pretty good autonomous features but Tesla definitely has the upper hand. The Polestar warranty is also only 4yr/50k B2B + 8yr/100k on the battery only. Tesla is 8yr/120k on the battery + motors. The interior is a little bland- it doesn’t look nearly as nice as it’s relative Volvo models, but I could live with it.
> 
> It seems hard to justify spending the same amount of money on a car that gets 100 miles less range, doesn’t have supercharging, etc. If they could keep the price similar and up the range to at least ~325mi, it could be a compelling alternative to the sea of Model 3’s.
> 
> I’m also not sure where Polestar fits into the Volvo family considering Volvo is quickly moving towards EV’s themselves with the XC40 recharge and allegedly 3 new EV’s over the next 3 years.



Tesla’s build quality has been a known issue for years. Which is why I am always excited when I see more companies making EVs.

As it stands, the “EVs are unreliable” is just “Teslas are unreliable” because they dominate the EV sector in America. But it‘s interesting to see that the reliability issues generally don’t have to do with the battery or the electric motor.


----------



## DT

Not the slightest bit angry, just DGAF if I'm being totally honest (which may not be the response you were expecting )

My personal experience at a few days short of 7 months:  it's been reliable, had ultra-low consumables cost, zero maintenance (flat tire notwithstanding), no issues as delivered, and I've felt it was an incredibly safe vehicle for my family.  I've got a statistically [odd] high number of friends with Teslas that report the same.

I'm also able to separate the car from the personality so to speak, this being a source of ire for some folks.


----------



## cloudflare420

AG_PhamD said:


> I’m sure there will be many people angry at me for posting this but:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports points to some problem areas
> 
> 
> From assembly related issues on Tesla models to electronics and drive-system issues in other vehicles, EVs are more trouble-prone, according to the consumer advocacy organization.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.greencarreports.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Consumer Reports currently ranks Tesla 26th in reliability, 2nd to worse. All 4 models are currently marked as reliability issues, with the Y “much worse than average”.
> 
> I suspect a lot of this has to do with many EV models being so new, not to mention new technology, and relatively low volume that the kinks haven’t been worked out. I suspect there are a lot of attempts at cost cutting too to try and keep costs down.
> 
> Tesla on the other hand has established technology and hasn’t had such bad reliability ratings in the past, so maybe just hasty production in an effort to get as many cars out the door?
> 
> ————
> 
> Not sure if anyone has talked about this yet, not exactly a new car but I think the Polestar 2 is a gorgeous looking vehicle. They recently put a dealer in very close to me but I haven’t seen more than a couple on the road.
> 
> View attachment 11033
> 
> Unfortunately the AWD model only gets 250mi range (270 w/FWD). It’s slightly slower than Model 3 LR AWD, but fairly closely priced for similarly equipped models (~$51k after tax credit). The options are heinously expensive on the Polestar. Volvo has pretty good autonomous features but Tesla definitely has the upper hand. The Polestar warranty is also only 4yr/50k B2B + 8yr/100k on the battery only. Tesla is 8yr/120k on the battery + motors. The interior is a little bland- it doesn’t look nearly as nice as it’s relative Volvo models, but I could live with it.
> 
> It seems hard to justify spending the same amount of money on a car that gets 100 miles less range, doesn’t have supercharging, etc. If they could keep the price similar and up the range to at least ~325mi, it could be a compelling alternative to the sea of Model 3’s.
> 
> I’m also not sure where Polestar fits into the Volvo family considering Volvo is quickly moving towards EV’s themselves with the XC40 recharge and allegedly 3 new EV’s over the next 3 years.



The biggest issue with the Polestar 2 is the horrible charging curve. You’re going to be sitting at the charger for a very long time, compared to a Tesla on a v3 SC or even a VW ID4 on Electrify America


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> Which is why I am always excited when I see more companies making EVs.




Competition is always a good thing - and another key takeaway in the EV industry:  it's not Tesla vs. Rivian vs. Lucid vs. VW vs. GM, it's the us vs. the planet.  If Tesla did nothing else but instigate this massive shift in the transportation market, then good for them and their panels gaps and questionable UI decisions   Everybody wins.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> I'm also able to separate the car from the personality so to speak, this being a source of ire for some folks.



Definitely is. And the panel gaps


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I have seen some electric city buses in DC…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meet the Fleet - Washington D.C. Circulator
> 
> 
> Our new vehicles offer the latest in comfort and technology!   Wider doors, larger windows, community seating and increased standing room help make the entire ride easy and comfortable for all. Charge up with USB ports near almost every seat. Connect with free public Wi-Fi on all new buses. Get...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dccirculator.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proterra Catalyst E2 Bus Debuts: 350 Miles Of Real World Range Via 660 kWh Battery
> 
> 
> Proterra has unveiled the longest range, 40-foot bus to hit the market to date, the Catalyst E2. A 660 kWh battery gives the electric bus 350 miles of range
> 
> 
> 
> 
> insideevs.com



This reminded me of Trolleybuses. You could do a hybrid approach where the bus gets charged in the city's busy areas while operating.
It's interesting to read there are only 5 trolley lines operating in the USA: Philly, SF, Seattle, Daytona and Boston (per wikipedia).


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> Not angry, but guess you can put me down towards not having much faith in these reports.
> 
> Just reading subreddits relating to Tesla, it just reveals to me how ignorant( putting it nicely) people can be towards their own car. And this ignorance probably plays some influence in how they answer any reliability/quality surveys. Now that the temps are dropping, the subreddits are littered with, " My Tesla's air pressure is showing amber, what does it mean!?!?!" It means fill your damn tires up with air..... Not only can they not comprehend that, they don't even know the recommended inflation and just go off what they set in their previous cars. Or for those that just bought the fastest model possible because, " Ooooo fast!!!" are now going, " My Tesla is unsafe in the snow!" Well no crap, you still have the summer tires on the vehicle!
> 
> I bet Tesla will get hit hard shortly again after V11's release because people don't like the UI change and down mark Tesla there too.....
> 
> When it comes to Tesla's, I would only put faith in build quality scores. Every thing else, I would tend to be skeptical on.....



To add to this, a lot of the issues we see in those subs happen with other gas powered vehicles as well, the change in tire pressure being one of them and it seems like people are at a loss when it comes to basic maintenance.

Tesla is the leading EV manufacturer in the world and it puts a target on their backs. While I'm still new to it there's obviously a real anti-Tesla sentiment out there for many, fair enough if it's not your thing but the reality is everyone else is playing catch up when it comes to winning over consumers.

There are things I miss about my BMW but consider it a tradeoff for the move into an EV, which I've found quite liberating when it comes to not being a slave to the gas pump any longer. In the end I the competition will benefit us all, there's a lot of people pitting car against car but we're also learning to live in a world that will eventually put the combustion engine behind us.


----------



## diamond.g

I think some of the reliability stuff can be somewhat vague. When you say reliability, some people are going to think “will this car leave me stranded” while others are going to think “will my radio work today”. Tesla is pretty good about the former, not so much on the latter.


----------



## AG_PhamD

quagmire said:


> Not angry, but guess you can put me down towards not having much faith in these reports.
> 
> Just reading subreddits relating to Tesla, it just reveals to me how ignorant( putting it nicely) people can be towards their own car. And this ignorance probably plays some influence in how they answer any reliability/quality surveys. Now that the temps are dropping, the subreddits are littered with, " My Tesla's air pressure is showing amber, what does it mean!?!?!" It means fill your damn tires up with air..... Not only can they not comprehend that, they don't even know the recommended inflation and just go off what they set in their previous cars. Or for those that just bought the fastest model possible because, " Ooooo fast!!!" are now going, " My Tesla is unsafe in the snow!" Well no crap, you still have the summer tires on the vehicle!
> 
> I bet Tesla will get hit hard shortly again after V11's release because people don't like the UI change and down mark Tesla there too.....
> 
> When it comes to Tesla's, I would only put faith in build quality scores. Every thing else, I would tend to be skeptical on.....




Consumer Reports actually has a scientific methodology of applicable failures that can be reported and the failures are weighed differently- those that inhibit the cars’s ability to operate and those that do not. 

CR also is non-profit, doesn’t accept advertisements, doesn’t allow companies to directly advertise if their car was recommended, purchases cars to review anonymously through dealers, etc.

I’ve been reading CR for 20+ years. Their car reliability rankings seemed generally pretty representative of reality. I never saw Toyota ranked among the least reliable and Land Rover among the best.

And if you think CR has some biased agenda, keep in mind they gave the Model S the top score of any car reviewed. They rated Model 3 as a top pick. Both were recommended at points.

Specifically these were the problems found with the Y:
“Commonly reported issues from Model Y owners included defective sensors that had to be replaced, problems with heat pumps, air conditioning, body panels that didn't line up and water leaks in the trunk due to missing seals, according to Fisher.” Additionally issues with paint.

The misaligned body panels, paint issues, and trunk leaking are all well known issues. The Y (and M3) is currently under investigation by NHTSA and Transport Canada because of reports of ineffective defrosters, which is obviously a safety issue. Heat pump sensors and frunk sensors appear to be common issues.


----------



## quagmire

AG_PhamD said:


> Consumer Reports actually has a scientific methodology of applicable failures that can be reported and the failures are weighed differently- those that inhibit the cars’s ability to operate and those that do not.
> 
> CR also is non-profit, doesn’t accept advertisements, doesn’t allow companies to directly advertise if their car was recommended, purchases cars to review anonymously through dealers, etc.
> 
> I’ve been reading CR for 20+ years. Their car reliability rankings seemed generally pretty representative of reality. I never saw Toyota ranked among the least reliable and Land Rover among the best.
> 
> And if you think CR has some biased agenda, keep in mind they gave the Model S the top score of any car reviewed. They rated Model 3 as a top pick. Both were recommended at points.
> 
> Specifically these were the problems found with the Y:
> “Commonly reported issues from Model Y owners included defective sensors that had to be replaced, problems with heat pumps, air conditioning, body panels that didn't line up and water leaks in the trunk due to missing seals, according to Fisher.” Additionally issues with paint.
> 
> The misaligned body panels, paint issues, and trunk leaking are all well known issues. The Y (and M3) is currently under investigation by NHTSA and Transport Canada because of reports of ineffective defrosters, which is obviously a safety issue. Heat pump sensors and frunk sensors appear to be common issues.




CR also criticized Tesla for autopilot for easily being defeated praising Ford and GM systems for using a camera to help monitor for driver attentiveness. While also ignoring it is possible to defeat Ford's/GM's system too. 

Tesla updates the car to use the in car camera to do the same, now CR goes, " OMG your privacy is at risk!". 

So yeah I don't have faith in CR. I don't have much faith in the media in general. So it isn't just CR. 

Like I have said, Tesla by far deserves criticism. They do need to be called out on it. But at the same time, I do believe the media puts a lot of focus on Tesla and slants anything to make things appear bigger deal than it is. The whole fiasco over the "recall" back in November I believe it was when Tesla discovered a bug in the emergency braking software and patched it. By the time that hit the media, it was already fixed. But they blew it up anyway. 

I know that is sort of a moving the goal posts sort of post, but idiot consumers plus media that is biased is why I don't have faith in the scores. But yes the issues listed are well known and I know about the heat pump issue too. But I wouldn't lump panel gaps or paint as a reliability issues. Build quality issues yes, but not making a car unreliable.


----------



## diamond.g

quagmire said:


> CR also criticized Tesla for autopilot for easily being defeated praising Ford and GM systems for using a camera to help monitor for driver attentiveness. While also ignoring it is possible to defeat Ford's/GM's system too.
> 
> Tesla updates the car to use the in car camera to do the same, now CR goes, " OMG your privacy is at risk!".
> 
> So yeah I don't have faith in CR. I don't have much faith in the media in general. So it isn't just CR.
> 
> Like I have said, Tesla by far deserves criticism. They do need to be called out on it. But at the same time, I do believe the media puts a lot of focus on Tesla and slants anything to make things appear bigger deal than it is. The whole fiasco over the "recall" back in November I believe it was when Tesla discovered a bug in the emergency braking software and patched it. By the time that hit the media, it was already fixed. But they blew it up anyway.
> 
> I know that is sort of a moving the goal posts sort of post, but idiot consumers plus media that is biased is why I don't have faith in the scores. But yes the issues listed are well known and I know about the heat pump issue too. But I wouldn't lump panel gaps or paint as a reliability issues. Build quality issues yes, but not making a car unreliable.



It also seems like people are more picky when it comes to defects in a Tesla versus say a BMW. Or maybe they are more vocal about it?


----------



## SuperMatt

The idea of reliability does seem to have changed. When it comes to cars, reliability to me has always been “will it break down on the way to work?”

Now it’s minor maintenance issues and wind noise?

Tesla has surpassed other makers in many ways, but consistent build quality should be a higher priority than a $12,000 “upgrade” to robot-driving…


----------



## Cmaier

diamond.g said:


> It also seems like people are more picky when it comes to defects in a Tesla versus say a BMW. Or maybe they are more vocal about it?




I have had more defects in my tesla than in my BMWs, so… 

Only think that i;ve had go wrong between 2 BMWs is an air vent louvre broke.

In that same period of time, my tesla: loose wheel axle nut (by far the most dangerous defect), cracked wheel (on the inside, not from external damage), broken MCU (that one took the longest to repair - around a month, but replacement supported LTE, so that’s nice), broken heater, many many bad body gaps, both visor mirror covers broken hinges, sirius radio regularly stops working or disappears, once every few months car refuses to turn on, car reboots at random times, center monitor yellowing (happening again after UV repair), TPU controller died (replacing was the new TPU which monitors wheels independently, so I enjoy that), grating noise when opening/closing one window, door handles don’t extend properly (multiple times), 12 volt battery died, garage door opener randomly decides not to auto-fire, and, my favorite, when door handle on one door got hot from the sun, the door actually OPENED while I was driving.


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> The idea of reliability does seem to have changed. When it comes to cars, reliability to me has always been “will it break down on the way to work?”
> 
> *Now it’s minor maintenance issues and wind noise?*
> 
> Tesla has surpassed other makers in many ways, but consistent build quality should be a higher priority than a $12,000 “upgrade” to robot-driving…




And apparently panel gaps and paint issues, which are clearly aesthetic concerns if they don't affect functionality, i.e., a panel gap that causes door or hatch operation issues vs. busting out a micrometer and measuring 0.5mm deviation between hood edges 

I've actually seen some CR questionnaires, specifically for the auto industry, and they go from "Days in service ..." to "Overall experience ..." the latter which create some subjective analytic noise.

That being said, even with the improvement over the last couple of years, they [Tesla] clearly have plenty of room for improvement in the QA process, especially pre-delivery (they seem to do a decent job of follow up service to adjust things to a reasonable level of satisfaction - but that shouldn't be necessary).  And, like @diamond.g indicated, I've seen (at least via lots of good quality photos),  paint people complain about, and I was surprised, it looked like good, modern, water-based paint execution, on par with my last several vehicles that included Toyota, Lexus and BMW.


----------



## DT

I'd just like to take the time to say:  modern paint is sort of poop in general


----------



## diamond.g

SuperMatt said:


> The idea of reliability does seem to have changed. When it comes to cars, reliability to me has always been “will it break down on the way to work?”
> 
> Now it’s minor maintenance issues and wind noise?
> 
> Tesla has surpassed other makers in many ways, but consistent build quality should be a higher priority than a $12,000 “upgrade” to robot-driving…



I wonder if they are going to release FSD v10 wider, then start the whole Early Access Program testing of v11 (with single stack) where once v11 is good they will raise the price again.



Cmaier said:


> I have had more defects in my tesla than in my BMWs, so…
> 
> Only think that i;ve had go wrong between 2 BMWs is an air vent louvre broke.
> 
> In that same period of time, my tesla: loose wheel axle nut (by far the most dangerous defect), cracked wheel (on the inside, not from external damage), broken MCU (that one took the longest to repair - around a month, but replacement supported LTE, so that’s nice), broken heater, many many bad body gaps, both visor mirror covers broken hinges, sirius radio regularly stops working or disappears, once every few months car refuses to turn on, car reboots at random times, center monitor yellowing (happening again after UV repair), TPU controller died (replacing was the new TPU which monitors wheels independently, so I enjoy that), grating noise when opening/closing one window, door handles don’t extend properly (multiple times), 12 volt battery died, garage door opener randomly decides not to auto-fire, and, my favorite, when door handle on one door got hot from the sun, the door actually OPENED while I was driving.



So why have you kept the vehicle if it has given you all these problems?


----------



## Cmaier

diamond.g said:


> I wonder if they are going to release FSD v10 wider, then start the whole Early Access Program testing of v11 (with single stack) where once v11 is good they will raise the price again.
> 
> 
> So why have you kept the vehicle if it has given you all these problems?




Because the alternative would be to replace it. It’s paid for, most of the issues I didn’t have to pay to resolve (though a bunch remain unresolved, and I did have to pay for the wheel).  Replacing the car would cost a lot of money, and it’s more economical to continue to drive it until the repair costs get to be too much (e.g. the battery dies or it needs some other very expensive repair).  (Tesla quotes me around $14k trade-in.  Figure $60k for a replacement.  Repairs are running around $1500 per year now that my extended warranty ended, but sample size is small).   Note that in the early days, Tesla service was great and minimized most of the hassles associated with the constant need for service. That hasn’t been the case in the last 2 or 3 years.

I haven’t kept up on alternatives, but when I am in the market to replace it (presumably within the next few years) I’d definitely buy something other than a Tesla as long as it has >320 mile range, supports wireless CarPlay, is big enough for my 6’3” frame, and has a 0-60 time sub 5 seconds.  I keep hoping the Apple car comes out by then


----------



## DT

Jeebus dude, I'm not sure when all this started/was occuring, but I would've either Lemon Law'ed (if within the time allowance) or sold/traded, that's certainly beyond what I would consider reasonable service level.

Hahaha, we had a nice new X5 4.4i Sport, went into the shop 3 times in the first 30 days - after some scorched earth, I wound up with an "extended loaner" BMW 3-series (nice loaded sedan) and they brought in their external technical support, got fixed for good


----------



## diamond.g

Cmaier said:


> Because the alternative would be to replace it. It’s paid for, most of the issues I didn’t have to pay to resolve (though a bunch remain unresolved, and I did have to pay for the wheel).  Replacing the car would cost a lot of money, and it’s more economical to continue to drive it until the repair costs get to be too much (e.g. the battery dies or it needs some other very expensive repair).  (Tesla quotes me around $14k trade-in.  Figure $60k for a replacement.  Repairs are running around $1500 per year now that my extended warranty ended, but sample size is small).   Note that in the early days, Tesla service was great and minimized most of the hassles associated with the constant need for service. That hasn’t been the case in the last 2 or 3 years.
> 
> I haven’t kept up on alternatives, but when I am in the market to replace it (presumably within the next few years) I’d definitely buy something other than a Tesla as long as it has >320 mile range, supports wireless CarPlay, is big enough for my 6’3” frame, and has a 0-60 time sub 5 seconds.  I keep hoping the Apple car comes out by then



You wouldn’t consider going back to a petrol car?


----------



## Apple fanboy

diamond.g said:


> You wouldn’t consider going back to a petrol car?



That is really the question isn’t it. I know a couple of people looking to replace their electric cars (I-pace and Model 3). Neither are considering an ICE.


----------



## Cmaier

diamond.g said:


> You wouldn’t consider going back to a petrol car?




Oh hell no.

I still own a BMW X3 (my wife drives it), but the advantages of electric are too profound to buy another car with an ICE.


----------



## SuperMatt

diamond.g said:


> You wouldn’t consider going back to a petrol car?



i would never consider going back to petrol, and I have a cheap EV with only 100 mile range. It‘s a much better experience.


----------



## DT

diamond.g said:


> You wouldn’t consider going back to a petrol car?




I know you didn't ask me, but I won't.

You probably don't know me too well, but I'm what I guess you would call a car enthusiast.  I've had quite a few cars, a number of high performance vehicles, some insanely setup "tuner" cars, I've road raced, done show tours - I'm pretty serious about my love of cars which of course started with gas vehicles - but I am all in on EV tech from here on out.


----------



## quagmire

I will and won't. 

By that I mean, if I ever can afford the C8 Z06, it's going to be in my garage. But for a daily, it's going to be hard to go back to ICE.


----------



## diamond.g

Apple fanboy said:


> That is really the question isn’t it. I know a couple of people looking to replace their electric cars (I-pace and Model 3). Neither are considering an ICE.






Cmaier said:


> Oh hell no.
> 
> I still own a BMW X3 (my wife drives it), but the advantages of electric are too profound to buy another car with an ICE.






SuperMatt said:


> i would never consider going back to petrol, and I have a cheap EV with only 100 mile range. It‘s a much better experience.



I was just wondering, especially with the range requirement, seems like most inexpensive EVs are topping out at around 300 miles. I wouldn’t want to go back to ICE (aside for some specific vehicles once the kids are out of the house).


----------



## SuperMatt

diamond.g said:


> I was just wondering, especially with the range requirement, seems like most inexpensive EVs are topping out at around 300 miles. I wouldn’t want to go back to ICE (aside for some specific vehicles once the kids are out of the house).



I got my EV in 2016. The landscape was: Tesla gets you long range at a price of about $80K, or you could get a cheaper EV from VW or Nissan for about $25K. I chose the latter (VW e-Golf) and with the $7500 tax credit, it ended up as cheap as a “regular” VW Golf.

There is a growing number of number of entrants now in the $30-$40K price range with over 200 mile range. If I was buying today instead of 6 years ago, I’d probably be looking at those instead of what I bought then.


----------



## Cmaier

diamond.g said:


> I was just wondering, especially with the range requirement, seems like most inexpensive EVs are topping out at around 300 miles. I wouldn’t want to go back to ICE (aside for some specific vehicles once the kids are out of the house).




I said 320 because, in my experience, I get about 70 percent of the rated range in actual driving.


----------



## diamond.g

Cmaier said:


> I said 320 because, in my experience, I get about 70 percent of the rated range in actual driving.



Ah, that is fair. I sometimes wish Tesla would use a GOM for range instead of the ”fixed” ideal (EPA) rating. So far it looks like other EV makers are being quite conservative on range ratings (or at least more conservative than Tesla, lol).


----------



## SuperMatt

diamond.g said:


> Ah, that is fair. I sometimes wish Tesla would use a GOM for range instead of the ”fixed” ideal (EPA) rating. So far it looks like other EV makers are being quite conservative on range ratings (or at least more conservative than Tesla, lol).



EPA range depends on how you drive it. I get more range than the rating for my car, but I drive mostly in the city, and on the highway I generally drive the speed limit. If you are going 65 mph+, the range goes way down. So if you’re going to take a long highway trip at that speed or above, drop 10-20% off the expected range.


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> EPA range depends on how you drive it. I get more range than the rating for my car, but I drive mostly in the city, and on the highway I generally drive the speed limit. If you are going 65 mph+, the range goes way down. So if you’re going to take a long highway trip at that speed or above, drop 10-20% off the expected range.




I drive mostly highway miles, at the speed limit (65).  the in-car range estimates are always vastly optimistic in my model s, unless I go to pains to keep the range up (range mode, drive slower than the speed limit, be very careful about using the accelerator, etc.)

I only charge the car about 60% full. Drive around 45 miles round trip every day, which takes about 65-75 miles of ”estimated range.”  Every once in awhile I forget to plug it in, so I need the car to have 90 miles of actual range when charged to 60%.  

Never have range anxiety or anything, given that the car, when new, had a supposed range of 300 miles. I’ve only had to use superchargers when doing weekend trips or the like.

(Of course, the estimated range to actual range ratio has changed over the years, both because of battery aging and because Tesla has modified its formulas several times)


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> EPA range depends on how you drive it.






DT said:


> It should be even better for you, LR config has better range and I drive like an asshole


----------



## Apple fanboy

Cmaier said:


> I drive mostly highway miles, at the speed limit (65).  the in-car range estimates are always vastly optimistic in my model s, unless I go to pains to keep the range up (range mode, drive slower than the speed limit, be very careful about using the accelerator, etc.)
> 
> I only charge the car about 60% full. Drive around 45 miles round trip every day, which takes about 65-75 miles of ”estimated range.”  Every once in awhile I forget to plug it in, so I need the car to have 90 miles of actual range when charged to 60%.
> 
> Never have range anxiety or anything, given that the car, when new, had a supposed range of 300 miles. I’ve only had to use superchargers when doing weekend trips or the like.
> 
> (Of course, the estimated range to actual range ratio has changed over the years, both because of battery aging and because Tesla has modified its formulas several times)



So how much range have you lost over the years? That is probably what concerns me as someone who buys second hand, then keeps hold for a few years. What’s the range going to drop to and how does that effect my resale value?


----------



## Cmaier

Apple fanboy said:


> So how much range have you lost over the years? That is probably what concerns me as someone who buys second hand, then keeps hold for a few years. What’s the range going to drop to and how does that effect my resale value?




I honestly have no idea. Since the reported range has changed formulas over the years, I can’t rely on that. And I have never tried running it from full to empty, so I have no way to compare.  I’m pretty sure on a full charge I could eke out 200 miles, but not sure much over that.


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> So how much range have you lost over the years? That is probably what concerns me as someone who buys second hand, then keeps hold for a few years. What’s the range going to drop to and how does that effect my resale value?





According to my buddy: his Model X,which is ~5 years old and has 90K miles, lost about 8-9% (based on his analytics/apps/etc), then the battery totally crapped out, and since it has an 8 year / 150K warranty for that component, it now has a brand new battery at no cost


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Eric

I charged mine to 100% because I was planning on a day trip, all in all about 4.5 hours worth of driving through the mountains and I still came back with 40% remaining. The ABRP (better routeplanner) pretty much nailed it, I still came in slightly above its prediction but considering all the variables it wa  impressive.

I also noticed that when charged to 100% that there was seemingly no regenerative breaking until I got down to the low 90s and I had to actually apply breaks which is something I rarely have to do, it was like a regular car in that sense. Just guessing that maybe the car is accounting for that and letting it roll until it wants to start putting it back into the battery.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> I charged mine to 100% because I was planning on a day trip, all in all about 4.5 hours worth of driving through the mountains and I still came back with 40% remaining. The ABRP (better routeplanner) pretty much nailed it, I still came in slightly above its prediction but considering all the variables it wa  impressive.
> 
> I also noticed that when charged to 100% that there was seemingly no regenerative breaking until I got down to the low 90s and I had to actually apply breaks which is something I rarely have to do, it was like a regular car in that sense. Just guessing that maybe the car is accounting for that and letting it roll until it wants to start putting it back into the battery.




Yeah, regen lowers as you approach 100% charge, the lines at the top that indicate battery use vs. battery [regenerative] charge, change to a dashed/dotted line, and at least I know in the past I've seen a message popup when you "start" the car that also shows something like "REGEN BRAKING REDUCED"


----------



## DT

Do you have your braking configured to come to a complete halt?  Now when I drive other cars, that they don't stop on their own seems to odd   The Teslas service guy this morning said so many of them never need brake pads, even the Performance flavors unless they're specifically driven regularly at track events.


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Do you have your braking configured to come to a complete halt?  Now when I drive other cars, that they don't stop on their own seems to odd   The Teslas service guy this morning said so many of them never need brake pads, even the Performance flavors unless they're specifically driven regularly at track events.



Not sure, what setting is that? I have it set to whatever the default was when I bought the car.


----------



## Cmaier

DT said:


> Do you have your braking configured to come to a complete halt?  Now when I drive other cars, that they don't stop on their own seems to odd   The Teslas service guy this morning said so many of them never need brake pads, even the Performance flavors unless they're specifically driven regularly at track events.




I’ve had my model S since 2013, and I bring it in for annual service every year, and they haven’t had to replace the pads yet.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Not sure, what setting is that? I have it set to whatever the default was when I bought the car.




Not sure about the default, in V11, [Car Icon] >> Pedals & Power >> Stopping Mode there's Creep / Roll / Stop.  Stop will come to a complete halt by simply lifting the accelerator, once you get the distance/timing down, it's amazing, I literally drive with one foot 98% of the time (my hot approach to the turn into my area requires the brake )



Cmaier said:


> I’ve had my model S since 2013, and I bring it in for annual service every year, and they haven’t had to replace the pads yet.




That just blows my mind.  I've experience the extreme the other direction, going through a brand new set of pads and part of another over an event weekend!


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Not sure about the default, in V11, [Car Icon] >> Pedals & Power >> Stopping Mode there's Creep / Roll / Stop.  Stop will come to a complete halt by simply lifting the accelerator, once you get the distance/timing down, it's amazing, I literally drive with one foot 98% of the time (my hot approach to the turn into my area requires the brake )



Oh that setting, yeah it's set to stop.


----------



## Cmaier

DT said:


> Not sure about the default, in V11, [Car Icon] >> Pedals & Power >> Stopping Mode there's Creep / Roll / Stop.  Stop will come to a complete halt by simply lifting the accelerator, once you get the distance/timing down, it's amazing, I literally drive with one foot 98% of the time (my hot approach to the turn into my area requires the brake )
> 
> 
> 
> That just blows my mind.  I've experience the extreme the other direction, going through a brand new set of pads and part of another over an event weekend!




When the Model S first came out, the stop mode was MUCH more aggressive. You could really feel it braking hard.  I like it.  After about a year they modified it by software update, and I found myself using the brakes more, but for the first year or so i almost never touched the brake pedal.


----------



## DT

My Performance model has some nice additional control over this when you're running in Track Mode, you can get F&F in a drift yo!


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> My Performance model has some nice additional control over this when you're running in Track Mode, you can get F&F in a drift yo!
> 
> View attachment 11100



I definitely do not see these settings in my long range model. I'm old though so I don't imagine I would really use any of these, yesterday I was doing 50 and punched it for fun on a straight stretch with no traffic and it went to 80 and pinned my head against the seat in the blink of an eye, I think what I have is good.


----------



## cloudflare420

DT said:


> My Performance model has some nice additional control over this when you're running in Track Mode, you can get F&F in a drift yo!
> 
> View attachment 11100



I wish they added some of these controls to the LR models. Would be fun in the snow


----------



## Eric

cloudflare420 said:


> I wish they added some of these controls to the LR models. Would be fun in the snow



Yeah but you can pin fart sounds to your taskbar, what more do you need?


----------



## DT

cloudflare420 said:


> I wish they added some of these controls to the LR models. Would be fun in the snow




I paid like $8K extra for those (and a couple of 10ths of seconds 0-60 ...) 

Here's what we need, a better Performance flavor, i.e., the Model 3R, or Model R or whatever, but this:

Model 3 chassis
20-25% increase in battery and power (1/4 @ sub-11, 122-124 MPH)
Deeper bolstered front seats, maybe cloth option
Lower front / larger rear aero
Adj. air suspension
Larger/lighter wheels/tires
P brakes, track mode, etc.

$65K

Where do I sign?




[edited:  thanks @diamond.g]


----------



## diamond.g

DT said:


> I paid like $8K extra for those (and a couple of 10ths of seconds 0-60 ...)
> 
> Here's what we need, a better Performance flavor, i.e., the Model 3R, or Model R or whatever, but this:
> 
> Model 3 chassis
> 20-25% increase in battery and power (1/4 @ sub-10, 122-124 MPH)
> Deeper bolstered front seats, maybe cloth option
> Lower front / larger rear aero
> Adj. air suspension
> Larger/lighter wheels/tires
> P brakes, track mode, etc.
> 
> $65K
> 
> Where do I sign?



Lol wouldn’t it be like a 50-100% increase in power? The S plaid weighs like 1k lbs more than the Performance 3 and needs 1k hp to hit the 1/4 in under 10s.


----------



## DT

diamond.g said:


> Lol wouldn’t it be like a 50-100% increase in power? The S plaid weighs like 1k lbs more than the Performance 3 and needs 1k hp to hit the 1/4 in under 10s.




Oh shit, I meant sub-11, originally I was going to write "in the 10s ..."

I'm talking about a much more modest boost in power over the current P, like another 50-100 HP at the most.


----------



## Eric

Watching YT reviews the Tesla FSD 10.9 is looking slicker than a Safeway chicken. Hope I don't end up regretting not purchasing it.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Watching YT reviews the Tesla FSD 10.9 is looking slicker than a Safeway chicken. Hope I don't end up regretting not purchasing it.




Did you see the monthly subscription price did not go up?


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Did you see the monthly subscription price did not go up?



I did not, is there any guarantee for length of time there?


----------



## diamond.g

Eric said:


> I did not, is there any guarantee for length of time there?



None at all, lol.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> Yeah but you can pin fart sounds to your taskbar, what more do you need?




But can you make it sound from the app when someone else is driving?


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> But can you make it sound from the app when someone else is driving?



Even better, tie it to the blinker


----------



## cloudflare420

DT said:


> I paid like $8K extra for those (and a couple of 10ths of seconds 0-60 ...)
> 
> Here's what we need, a better Performance flavor, i.e., the Model 3R, or Model R or whatever, but this:
> 
> Model 3 chassis
> 20-25% increase in battery and power (1/4 @ sub-11, 122-124 MPH)
> Deeper bolstered front seats, maybe cloth option
> Lower front / larger rear aero
> Adj. air suspension
> Larger/lighter wheels/tires
> P brakes, track mode, etc.
> 
> $65K
> 
> Where do I sign?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [edited:  thanks @diamond.g]



The air suspension and better seats are key here. Sign me up


----------



## Herdfan

A Tesla with a _Friends of Coal_ license plate.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> A Tesla with a _Friends of Coal_ license plate.



That there's what you would call ironic.


----------



## DT

cloudflare420 said:


> The air suspension and better seats are key here. Sign me up




I do like my current seats, and they're plenty supportive for all the driving I'll do, but this was to make the car a little more "hardcore" for weekend track/AX enthusiasts, though that might be better as an option (I had ultra bolstered race type seats a couple of times, and they're not that fun on the street for the other 98% of the time ...)


----------



## quagmire

I want a sanity check for a second..... 

I keep seeing people complaining about phantom braking with their Tesla's. The vast majority describe it occurring on local roads. To me that is an inappropriate time to be using adaptive cruise control( let alone autopilot). Local roads need you at full attention and control over the car at all times due to curves, hills, animals, etc. To my understanding of the intentions of cruise control( dumb or adaptive) is meant to be used on the highways. I mention this to people, and I get blasted or get a I have a third head kind of reaction. I get it, these people are the types that want a Level 5 autonomous car because they hate the task of driving a vehicle. But cars are not at that point yet. 

My parents cars all have false positives when it comes to their emergency braking, etc due to getting thrown off due to hills, curves, etc of local roads. I can count on one hand how many times I have experienced phantom braking on my Vision-only 3 because I use these features on the highway. I feel the problem is being made into a bigger deal due to misuse of a cars feature for trying to make it into something it isn't capable of doing yet. 

Or am I totally off base here?


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> I want a sanity check for a second.....
> 
> I keep seeing people complaining about phantom braking with their Tesla's. The vast majority describe it occurring on local roads. To me that is an inappropriate time to be using adaptive cruise control( let alone autopilot). Local roads need you at full attention and control over the car at all times due to curves, hills, animals, etc. To my understanding of the intentions of cruise control( dumb or adaptive) is meant to be used on the highways. I mention this to people, and I get blasted or get a I have a third head kind of reaction. I get it, these people are the types that want a Level 5 autonomous car because they hate the task of driving a vehicle. But cars are not at that point yet.



If there's a long enough straight stretch on rural roads I'll use it but otherwise I keep things manual for the most part. However, where it shines is when you're stuck behind people with no way to get around, at that point you can just turn it on and follow the mule which can be a nice break.



quagmire said:


> My parents cars all have false positives when it comes to their emergency braking, etc due to getting thrown off due to hills, curves, etc of local roads. I can count on one hand how many times I have experienced phantom braking on my Vision-only 3 because I use these features on the highway. I feel the problem is being made into a bigger deal due to misuse of a cars feature for trying to make it into something it isn't capable of doing yet.
> 
> Or am I totally off base here?



I have noticed this in both my BMW and the Tesla, it was far worse in the BMW but it seems like an anomaly that maybe errs on the side of being safe in its detection of things in the road, etc. but it's far smoother in the Tesla and it works it out pretty quick.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Or am I totally off base here?




Not from my perspective, in fact, I've said the same in several other posts right on this forum.  ACC/AP/TACC should be for open highway where there's little-to-no concerns over side roads, intersections, blind curves, cars parked on the street, etc.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Herdfan

quagmire said:


> I keep seeing people complaining about phantom braking with their Tesla's. The vast majority describe it occurring on local roads. To me that is an inappropriate time to be using adaptive cruise control( let alone autopilot).et.
> 
> Or am I totally off base here?




Aside from Tesla's or any car with autopilot or basic cruise control.  It should never be used on secondary roads.  Never.  Learned that at 16 when I put my parent's Suburban in the ditch when CC took me too fast around a corner.

So, not off base one bit.


----------



## Eric

theSeb said:


> I think any cruise control, no matter how advanced or stupid, is the work of the devil and should not be used by any one, at any time, except for roadworks with speed limits enforced by the spawn of Satan himself - the average speed camera.



In my experience adaptive cruise control (with or without autosteer capabilities) is the coolest thing since sliced bread, particularly when it comes to rush hour traffic. What I once detested about driving has turned into relaxing downtime and and speed under 30 MPH, just let the car do everything in slow motion and relax.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Aside from Tesla's or any car with autopilot or basic cruise control.  It should never be used on secondary roads.  Never.  Learned that at 16 when I put my parent's Suburban in the ditch when CC took me too fast around a corner.
> 
> So, not off base one bit.



How long has it been since you were 16?  There have been a lot of advancements. At least with the Tesla when in autopilot mode you cannot go more than 5 MPH over, and if you try to force it, it will disengage on you and remove your ability to use it for the rest of that drive.


----------



## quagmire

Eric said:


> How long has it been since you were 16?  There have been a lot of advancements. At least with the Tesla when in autopilot mode you cannot go more than 5 MPH over, and if you try to force it, it will disengage on you and remove your ability to use it for the rest of that drive.




I can go well above 5 over the limit on autopilot. Just turn that option off.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> I can go well above 5 over the limit on autopilot. Just turn that option off.



With autosteer?


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> How long has it been since you were 16?  There have been a lot of advancements. At least with the Tesla when in autopilot mode you cannot go more than 5 MPH over, and if you try to force it, it will disengage on you and remove your ability to use it for the rest of that drive.




Almost 40 years.  LOL.

This wasn't because I was exceeding the limit.  It was a curve on a 55mph 2-lane.  You know, the kind with the yellow 40 mph advisory limits and a an arrow.

That does bring up a good question about autopilot.  One thing I did have drilled into my head, mainly because we had lots of roads with nice dropoffs at the edge, was not to jerk it back on the road.  So that is probably what kept me in the ditch and not flipped upside down on the other side.

So how would autopilot handle somehting like that?  So lets say you came around a turn and it was a little bit slick and dropped the right side tires off the road.  Would it try to bring you back on or simply apply the brakes and slow you to a stop?


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Almost 40 years.  LOL.
> 
> This wasn't because I was exceeding the limit.  It was a curve on a 55mph 2-lane.  You know, the kind with the yellow 40 mph advisory limits and a an arrow.
> 
> That does bring up a good question about autopilot.  One thing I did have drilled into my head, mainly because we had lots of roads with nice dropoffs at the edge, was not to jerk it back on the road.  So that is probably what kept me in the ditch and not flipped upside down on the other side.
> 
> So how would autopilot handle somehting like that?  So lets say you came around a turn and it was a little bit slick and dropped the right side tires off the road.  Would it try to bring you back on or simply apply the brakes and slow you to a stop?



This is a great question and I've had a little experience with it already and I think there's a bit of a learning curve here. When in autopilot (with autosteer on the Tesla at least) you have to either tap the breaks or jerk slightly on the wheel and IMO that can be dangerous if you over correct while pulling on it. I've just resigned to giving the breaks a slight tap to get out of it, seems to work okay.

However, if there is a hard edge on a narrow rural road I simply don't use those features and manually drive it. It does keep lanes nearly perfectly but sometimes it gets a little too close to the edge for my taste so I pretty much reserve that for highway travel.


----------



## quagmire

Eric said:


> With autosteer?




Yep. I have set 10-15 MPH over without issues.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> Yep. I have set 10-15 MPH over without issues.



No shit? Okay, I'll have to look for that setting, I can't stand that it penalizes me like that and have just leaned to keep my foot off the gas.

Edit: where is this setting?


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> In my experience adaptive cruise control (with or without autosteer capabilities) is the coolest thing since sliced bread, particularly when it comes to rush hour traffic. What I once detested about driving has turned into relaxing downtime and and speed under 30 MPH, just let the car do everything in slow motion and relax.



Absolutely. Love it in my Golf. I drove a van the other week with standard CC. It felt so basic!


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Yep. I have set 10-15 MPH over without issues.





"Sir, would you mind stepping out of the car ..."


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> "Sir, would you mind stepping out of the car ..."




How are you going to get money from a car officer? It was the one driving, not me!


----------



## diamond.g

Eric said:


> No shit? Okay, I'll have to look for that setting, I can't stand that it penalizes me like that and have just leaned to keep my foot off the gas.
> 
> Edit: where is this setting?



NoA City Streets allows local roads to be set to “any” speed you want (Like on highway) instead of the 5 mph limit. Though the car will reset the speed anytime it passes a speed limit sign that is different than the one you set the speed you wanted to go at (does that make sense?).


----------



## Herdfan

diamond.g said:


> NoA City Streets allows local roads to be set to “any” speed you want (Like on highway) instead of the 5 mph limit. Though the car will reset the speed anytime it passes a speed limit sign that is different than the one you set the speed you wanted to go at (does that make sense?).




Yes and that would be an awesome feature.  We have some 4-lanes here that go from limited-access (exit/entry ramps) to regular access and the speed limit changes.  And the police know just where to sit to catch people with cruise control not realizing the speed limit drops from 70 to 60.  And since most were doing above 70, they get a 10+ over ticket.


----------



## Eric

diamond.g said:


> NoA City Streets allows local roads to be set to “any” speed you want (Like on highway) instead of the 5 mph limit. Though the car will reset the speed anytime it passes a speed limit sign that is different than the one you set the speed you wanted to go at (does that make sense?).



I don't know what "NoA City Streets is", so no. I wish people wouldn't automatically assume we know all the acronyms and just spell it out the first time.

I know Autopilot and I know FSD, if anyone cares to enlighten me that would be great.


----------



## DT

NoA == Navigate on Autopilot (aka, take me from A to B ...)


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> NoA == Navigate on Autopilot (aka, take me from A to B ...)



One thing I question is when you have to disable autopilot (autosteer) for a lane change, you have the following options after turning on the signal:
1) force the steering wheel out of it
2) tap the breaks

The only reason you'll turn on your signal is to change a lane, so why won't it automatically disengage rather than forcing you to do it manually?


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> I don't know what "NoA City Streets is", so no. I wish people wouldn't automatically assume we know all the acronyms and just spell it out the first time.
> 
> I know Autopilot and I know FSD, if anyone cares to enlighten me that would be great.




Some of the confusion is around the term FSD, which isn't a specific feature, it's a package of features (and related hardware).

Full Self-Driving Capability (FSD)

Includes:

Navigate on Autopilot (NoA)
Auto Lane Change
Autopark
Summon
Full Self-Driving Computer
Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## diamond.g

DT said:


> Some of the confusion is around the term FSD, which isn't a specific feature, it's a package of features (and related hardware).
> 
> Full Self-Driving Capability (FSD)
> 
> Includes:
> 
> Navigate on Autopilot (NoA)
> Auto Lane Change
> Autopark
> Summon
> Full Self-Driving Computer
> Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control



Yeah, everything up to the last two lines USED to be called Enhanced Autopilot. Then Tesla listened to ”people” and instead of having that whole packge for 5k they took  Autosteer and TACC out and made it 3k (and the rest of the features got lumped under FSD for 5k on top of the 3k). THEN folks complained about that so they increased the price of the cars and made AP (Autosteer and TACC) ”standard”. All in the span of a month or two IIRC. 

THEN they started the price spiraling.


----------



## diamond.g

theSeb said:


> Even more confusing with an international audience is that these features are spread differently, if you buy a Tesla in a country like the UK, for example.



Yeah Europe I think still gets Enhanced Autopilot because reasons (really because it is less likely FSD will get approved there anytime soon).


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## diamond.g

theSeb said:


> View attachment 11195



Oh snap! Well there you go and it also shows why no one in their right mind would pay 6800GBP for it…


----------



## Eric

Turns out all but one of the screws holding the temporary rear paper temporary license plate came loose and fell out and the plate is now gone after my latest trip. Didn't think I should've had to check that but it is what it is. Using the second one now and ordering new replacement screws from Amazon, just hoping someone doesn't steal/use the other one to avoid tolls, something huge in the Bay Area.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> I can go well above 5 over the limit on autopilot. Just turn that option off.






Eric said:


> With autosteer?






Eric said:


> No shit? Okay, I'll have to look for that setting, I can't stand that it penalizes me like that and have just leaned to keep my foot off the gas.
> 
> Edit: where is this setting?






quagmire said:


> Yep. I have set 10-15 MPH over without issues.



Got nailed again for this yesterday. @quagmire or @DT how do I change this setting?


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Got nailed again for this yesterday. @quagmire or @DT how do I change this setting?




I think it's all in these controls in the Autopilot config:


----------



## BigMcGuire

Been meaning to get involved here because my wife and I want to get an electric vehicle.

A bit of off topic - my friend has a Tesla (series 3) is currently without power and has been been for 3 days since we had some high winds here in southern CA. He has a Jackery 1000 that he charges with his Tesla, then uses that to keep his refrigerator/devices charged, then heads off to the super charger to charge his Tesla. A near full Jackery charge takes his Tesla down from 250 miles to 225 miles.

That's some pretty great utility there. He showed me a video of him watching some TV on his Tesla screen too.

My wife and I have 2 civics - almost completely paid off - I think our payments together are in the high $700s (total, for both cars). We spend about $150-$160/mo on gas. (Used to be 2.5x but I don't drive anymore). So $860/mo - if we got rid of our cars, got an electric vehicle - I think the $ would work.


----------



## diamond.g

BigMcGuire said:


> Been meaning to get involved here because my wife and I want to get an electric vehicle.
> 
> A bit of off topic - my friend has a Tesla (series 3) is currently without power and has been been for 3 days since we had some high winds here in southern CA. He has a Jackery 1000 that he charges with his Tesla, then uses that to keep his refrigerator/devices charged, then heads off to the super charger to charge his Tesla. A near full Jackery charge takes his Tesla down from 250 miles to 225 miles.
> 
> That's some pretty great utility there. He showed me a video of him watching some TV on his Tesla screen too.
> 
> My wife and I have 2 civics - almost completely paid off - I think our payments together are in the high $700s (total, for both cars). We spend about $150-$160/mo on gas. (Used to be 2.5x but I don't drive anymore). So $860/mo - if we got rid of our cars, got an electric vehicle - I think the $ would work.



I wouldn't buy a EV to save money on fuel.


----------



## Eric

diamond.g said:


> I wouldn't buy a EV to save money on fuel.



But you will save on it, unless gas prices go way down. Additionally, if you have a home charging solution you'll never look back. It's both cheaper and more convenient.


----------



## DT

BigMcGuire said:


> Been meaning to get involved here because my wife and I want to get an electric vehicle.
> 
> A bit of off topic - my friend has a Tesla (series 3) is currently without power and has been been for 3 days since we had some high winds here in southern CA. He has a Jackery 1000 that he charges with his Tesla, then uses that to keep his refrigerator/devices charged, then heads off to the super charger to charge his Tesla. A near full Jackery charge takes his Tesla down from 250 miles to 225 miles.
> 
> That's some pretty great utility there. He showed me a video of him watching some TV on his Tesla screen too.
> 
> My wife and I have 2 civics - almost completely paid off - I think our payments together are in the high $700s (total, for both cars). We spend about $150-$160/mo on gas. (Used to be 2.5x but I don't drive anymore). So $860/mo - if we got rid of our cars, got an electric vehicle - I think the $ would work.




There are some new vehicles coming out that will have the capability to supply power back out.  Like the upcoming Ford Lightning (truck) has an a connector option on the charger, that lets you connect the car and power your entire house!  And keep in mind these vehicles have massive batteries, like that Jackery is 1kW vs. a Model 3 that has an 82kW battery 

Gas savings can be pretty terrific, the thing that totally throws off the comparison is you can get an EV that's as fast as a high performance car, but has better consumables cost than a tiny econobox.

It's pretty easy to get a sense of the cost, savings, etc., just take a car like a Tesla Model LR, it's documented at 358 miles for a full charge, that's an EPA estimate, so just call it a nice even 300 to accommodate real world range (running the heater, etc.)  With an 82 kWh battery, that's 300 miles at the cost of charging 82 kW, if your power rate is $0.11/kW (that's actually mine), that's ~$9 to go 300 miles - to think about it another way, if gas was $3/g, the ICE MPG equivalence would be 100MPG. 

Of course that doesn't factor in the home charging convenience, the brisk performance, the quiet, emissions free operation, the superior design opportunities when you remove transmission, gas tanks, etc.

I see you're in CA, I think you have a lot of options for off peak charging at a notable cost reduction, and that's all easily coordinated through the car interface, smart charging, etc.


----------



## SuperMatt

diamond.g said:


> I wouldn't buy a EV to save money on fuel.



I did this. I mentioned it elsewhere, but I got my EV for about $25K, and got the $7500 tax credit... so it cost the same as a “regular” car and I haven’t had to buy gas since 2016


----------



## diamond.g

SuperMatt said:


> I did this. I mentioned it elsewhere, but I got my EV for about $25K, and got the $7500 tax credit... so it cost the same as a “regular” car and I haven’t had to buy gas since 2016



Charging at home is great, but I have noticed DCFC abroad is getting more expensive. I drove to Orlando in 2019 and back to VA Beach for like 75 dollars round trip, I am pretty sure it isn't that cheap anymore.


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> I did this. I mentioned it elsewhere, but I got my EV for about $25K, and got the $7500 tax credit... so it cost the same as a “regular” car and I haven’t had to buy gas since 2016




You should try to come up with an estimate of fuel savings.  I know there's been a decent amount of gas price fluctuation over that time, but you could probably find some average prices in X for N year.


----------



## Eric

diamond.g said:


> Charging at home is great, but I have noticed DCFC abroad is getting more expensive. I drove to Orlando in 2019 and back to VA Beach for like 75 dollars round trip, I am pretty sure it isn't that cheap anymore.



I'm paying .09 per kilowatt in CA between midnight and 6:00 AM, our power company subsidizes for the EV and we figure we're paying about 1/3 what we were at the pump when all is said and done. Not sure about other parts of the country but there is no question that it's way cheaper than gas at current prices.


----------



## DT

@diamond.g is talking specifically about DCFC (Superchargers), but I'd think even with those being closer to current gas prices, you still have to factor in the how much those are used vs. home charging.  I can say, that in the ~3700 miles on our M3P that have included about 10 or so trips to Orlando (MCO and Universal, so about 250-260 mile round trip), could all have been done on home or  (free) destination charging (I say "could" since I used those trips to burn some of my free SuC mileage )

At least in our case, even if we go down to The Keys, or make a road trip to PA, we'd still be like 95% home charging rates by mileage.


----------



## quagmire

Haven't supercharged at all so all 1300 miles have been home charging and only cost $43 for that miles.


----------



## Herdfan

BigMcGuire said:


> He has a Jackery 1000 that he charges with his Tesla, then uses that to keep his refrigerator/devices charged, then heads off to the super charger to charge his Tesla. A near full Jackery charge takes his Tesla down from 250 miles to 225 miles.
> 
> That's some pretty great utility there. He showed me a video of him watching some TV on his Tesla screen too.




Wasn't it Tesla that was going to make 10K battery packs for the home to either store solar or replace backup generators.


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> the thing that totally throws off the comparison is you can get an EV that's as fast as a high performance car, but has better consumables cost than a tiny econobox.




No, what you really get is a family sedan than will smoke all but the $$$$$ supercars.


----------



## quagmire

Herdfan said:


> Wasn't it Tesla that was going to make 10K battery packs for the home to either store solar or replace backup generators.




Yeah Tesla bought SolarCity was it? Called powerwalls though I believe they tied powerwalls to solar panel purchase and can no longer buy powerwalls separately.


----------



## diamond.g

quagmire said:


> Haven't supercharged at all so all 1300 miles have been home charging and only cost $43 for that miles.



You are temping me to go look at SMT in my car to see my recent charging stats. Last time I looked I used something like 11124 kWh AC charging and like 834 kWh DC charging.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> No, what you really get is a family sedan than will smoke all but the $$$$$ supercars.





Yeah, I love how the equation has just been flipped on its head.  When I talk about gas mileage equivalent vs. the performance, you're not talking about 40-50 MPG cars you're talking about cars that need 92-93 octane, and that get 12-15MPG.


----------



## quagmire

diamond.g said:


> You are temping me to go look at SMT in my car to see my recent charging stats. Last time I looked I used something like 11124 kWh AC charging and like 834 kWh DC charging.




Now take into account, that is just me taking the 292 kwh consumption from the screen. That doesn't take into account of charging losses and the electricity used to precondition the car so the $43 I came up with is probably a little bit more, but still been ridiculous cheap to operate the Model 3. My Camaro would have cost $265 to go the same miles based off current price of premium in my area.


----------



## diamond.g

Driven 48746 miles, used 12272 kWh to drive said miles (252 Wh/mi). It appears that I have "lost" 6 kWh from new. TeslaFi is missing my first 15k miles but for what it has it claims I have spent ~1200 on fueling my ride.


----------



## SuperMatt

DT said:


> Yeah, I love how the equation has just been flipped on its head.  When I talk about gas mileage equivalent vs. the performance, you're not talking about 40-50 MPG cars you're talking about cars that need 92-93 octane, and that get 12-15MPG.



My EV gets between 4-5 miles per kilowatt hour. With electricity in DC at 13 cents per kWh, that is 13 cents to go 5 miles, or *2.5 cents per mile*. A highly efficient car that gets 50 MPG at $3.50 a gallon, you are *7 cents per mile*. So about 3x more expensive for fuel... and we know the average is slightly less than 25 MPG... so *14 cents per mile* - 5.6x more expensive for fuel.


----------



## User.45

So I've heard that you can now remotely monitor you tesla's cameras in sentry mode?! Any experience with this?


----------



## quagmire

P_X said:


> So I've heard that you can now remotely monitor you tesla's cameras in sentry mode?! Any experience with this?




Yep.

Can access live feed through the app once you turned on the setting in the car. Requires the premium connectivity plan( $10 a month).


----------



## DT

diamond.g said:


> You are temping me to go look at SMT in my car to see my recent charging stats. Last time I looked I used something like 11124 kWh AC charging and like 834 kWh DC charging.




So that's like 7% at the costlier DCFC rates, right?  I was looking for data on average vacation mileage, number of trips per year, etc., and it looks like most people are like you, in the 5-10% of total mileage as the type of use that necessitate a DCFC, of course, that doesn't include people who aren't taking long trips but also can't charge at the home or office for whatever reason.

You're right though, as you increase DCFC use, the cost savings vs. gas gets smaller, and could essentially be none depending on the current price of gas, efficiency of an ICE alternative.

(This is a little late, I had it in my editor all day ...)




quagmire said:


> Yep.
> 
> Can access live feed through the app once you turned on the setting in the car. Requires the premium connectivity plan( $10 a month).




I'm hoping this feature becomes available for WiFi too (knowing it's a way to push premium connectivity ...)

When my free year is over, I think I'm going to try a month or two without it, see how things work.   An update from last year allows WiFi connectivity while the vehicle is operating, and my iP13 with 5G and unlimited data would be better performance.  I think the only thing I'd really miss is Live Traffic, though traffic usually only comes up with us on a trip, and the wife is providing traffic guidance directly from her phone anyway.


----------



## DT

BigMcGuire said:


> I grew up wanting to have a Ford F250 heavy duty. My grandpa always had ford pickups on the farm that I got to drive (way before I got my driver's license). Definitely were a highlight of my year.
> 
> That truck just hmmm.
> 
> Surprised how many e-mustang suvs I see here in socal. They look great and wow they're quick (I drive a Civic).
> 
> I'll never get out of my head the two shattered windows of the cyber truck lol.




Doing a cross thread reply since this has a lot of other EV content 



BigMcGuire said:


> I grew up wanting to have a Ford F250 heavy duty. My grandpa always had ford pickups on the farm that I got to drive (way before I got my driver's license). Definitely were a highlight of my year.




A few great options for more traditional designs, and from Ford.  The new Lighting appears to be a winner, if you can ever get one (and don't mind $70K for decent range), and the Silverado E just made its debut, looks like another solid EV truck (again, the range costs ...)

I think if someone said, "_Here, you can have one of these, fully optioned to your spec:  Ford Lightning, Chevy Silverado E, Rivian T1S_", it would be a tough choice.




BigMcGuire said:


> Surprised how many e-mustang suvs I see here in socal. They look great and wow they're quick (I drive a Civic).




I'm pretty surprised I haven't seen one on the street (though not specifically looking).  They're selling well, and there's a ton of Teslas around here (so plenty of EV adoption), seems like that should equal seeing them semi-regularly on the road.  I have seen that Kia that has the same taillights quite a bit, unless some of those are Mach-Es


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> I'm hoping this feature becomes available for WiFi too (knowing it's a way to push premium connectivity ...)
> 
> When my free year is over, I think I'm going to try a month or two without it, see how things work.   An update from last year allows WiFi connectivity while the vehicle is operating, and my iP13 with 5G and unlimited data would be better performance.  I think the only thing I'd really miss is Live Traffic, though traffic usually only comes up with us on a trip, and the wife is providing traffic guidance directly from her phone anyway.




Yeah would be nice for it to work on WiFi as well vs relying on the cellular data.

I am leaning towards paying the $10/month. I see value in it, but maybe a bit biased because $10 a month is cheaper than I was paying for Onstar on the Camaro. Heck it is one of the most reasonably priced items Tesla offers.... Even though I do intend to pick up acceleration boost, the $2K price is still a bit steep, don't get me started on FSD, and $2K for red paint is ridiculous( I probably would have gone red if it was under $1,000). So $10/month is a steal in Tesla pricing structure world. But now I have said that, expecting Elon to tweet it will go to $50/month in two weeks.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> Yeah would be nice for it to work on WiFi as well vs relying on the cellular data.
> 
> I am leaning towards paying the $10/month. I see value in it, but maybe a bit biased because $10 a month is cheaper than I was paying for Onstar on the Camaro.



I was on the fence and my wife convinced me to do it, in the end it's really not a bad value. For me the live traffic view, satellite maps and ability to view cameras live are worth it, I don't really care about the rest but watching Netflix while parked (or charging) is pretty cool too.


----------



## quagmire

Eric said:


> I was on the fence and my wife convinced me to do it, in the end it's really not a bad value. For me the live traffic view, satellite maps and ability to view cameras live are worth it, I don't really care about the rest but watching Netflix while parked (or charging) is pretty cool too.




For a second I went, " Wait you started to pay for it well before your year was up?" but then remembered Tesla reduced the free trial to 30 days back in October. 

Still got 5 months left on my trial.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> For a second I went, " Wait you started to pay for it well before your year was up?" but then remembered Tesla reduced the free trial to 30 days back in October.
> 
> Still got 5 months left on my trial.



FWIW they won't start charging me until my free 30 days are up but yeah I didn't get in on that deal.


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> and the Silverado E just made its debut,




Love the pass through bed on the Silverado like on the old Avalanche.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> Love the pass through bed on the Silverado like on the old Avalanche.




Yeah, the mid-gate is a really slick feature, and it splits 60/40 like the seats - plus you can get a full tonneau cover that locks, so you could extend the bed while keeping everything "inside" so to speak.


----------



## quagmire

I posted about it on the other site that shall not be named, but my insurance is getting ridiculous. Went up by $200 for the next six month period no fault to my own. Sadly, Progressive is still the cheapest in my area for Tesla's. So not much choice.....


----------



## DT

Did you make any claims?  Or just a rando increase?


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Did you make any claims?  Or just a rando increase?




Random increase. No claims, no accidents, no tickets, etc.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> I am leaning towards paying the $10/month.




I can see myself just saying screw it and going with the simplest solution, i.e., the $10/month.  It's not really the money, just the idea of paying for an extra cellular service when we've got perfectly good, unlimited service, and a hot spot (that probably has superior performance).

They should offer like a $99/year discount.



quagmire said:


> But now I have said that, expecting Elon to tweet it will go to $50/month in two weeks.




Yeah, thanks A LOT


----------



## diamond.g

DT said:


> I can see myself just saying screw it and going with the simplest solution, i.e., the $10/month.  It's not really the money, just the idea of paying for an extra cellular service when we've got perfectly good, unlimited service, and a hot spot (that probably has superior performance).
> 
> They should offer like a $99/year discount.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, thanks A LOT



Folks have asked for a yearly payment option, Elon seemed receptive (it was a tweet) so maybe in 2023? Lol.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> I'm hoping this feature becomes available for WiFi too (knowing it's a way to push premium connectivity ...)
> 
> When my free year is over, I think I'm going to try a month or two without it, see how things work.   An update from last year allows WiFi connectivity while the vehicle is operating, and my iP13 with 5G and unlimited data would be better performance.  I think the only thing I'd really miss is Live Traffic, though traffic usually only comes up with us on a trip, and the wife is providing traffic guidance directly from her phone anyway.



I think this answered your question already It won't support wifi. Honestly, where I live there's a lot of car break-ins so having the car in Sentry mode and watching it off WIFI would be a killer deal. Thanks my Mesh wifi I can get signal a block down, LOL.


----------



## Eric

diamond.g said:


> Folks have asked for a yearly payment option, Elon seemed receptive (it was a tweet) so maybe in 2023? Lol.



I know Tesla is his creation but maybe it's time they let executive management make some of these decisions instead leaving it all up to someone bong-tweeting the first thing that comes to mind.


----------



## diamond.g

Eric said:


> I know Tesla is his creation but maybe it's time they let executive management make some of these decisions instead leaving it all up to someone bong-tweeting the first thing that comes to mind.



At some point he is going to leave Tesla and I am pretty sure when that happens Tesla will quickly fall into acting like other car companies. All these free updates and user inspired changes? Don’t expect them to continue (I’d like to be wrong, but so far no other startup is acting like how Tesla has acted on the software side so I can easily see that stuff stopping).


----------



## DT

DT said:


> I'm pretty surprised I haven't seen one on the street (though not specifically looking).  They're selling well, and there's a ton of Teslas around here (so plenty of EV adoption), seems like that should equal seeing them semi-regularly on the road.  I have seen that Kia that has the same taillights quite a bit, unless some of those are Mach-Es




Hahaha, well heck, we were behind one coming home last night  Looks like it was a Premium based on the wheels (and referencing the Ford site).


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## DT

theSeb said:


> People are claiming it's to do with high costs of Tesla EV parts replacements and insurance companies adjusting accordingly. No solid proof of anything though.




It's all EVs and anything with new-er-ish tech.  I have a buddy in the insurance industry, he said there's some amount of uncertainty about repairability, parts (batteries!), etc., that are starting to affect cost projections, especially as EVs start becoming more common.  I see people getting 30-40% high rates on a like priced Taycan (EV) vs. a Panamera (ICE), which is a good comparison of the same vehicle segment (in the same manufacturer).


----------



## Eric

diamond.g said:


> At some point he is going to leave Tesla and I am pretty sure when that happens Tesla will quickly fall into acting like other car companies. All these free updates and user inspired changes? Don’t expect them to continue (I’d like to be wrong, but so far no other startup is acting like how Tesla has acted on the software side so I can easily see that stuff stopping).



Free? If I want to make my car go a split second faster that will be $2000 please. Oh, and how about that $12,000 to unlock FSD? Not sure if Musk is just evil or a marketing genius but he has people clamoring to take their money while he tokes all day on a couch tweeting out Tesla teasers and trolling Bernie Sanders.

As for free OS updates, I believe it is a standard that will likely continue as it does with iPhone, Android, etc. The car (hardware) itself comes preloaded with a bunch of turned off switches that people will need to pay to activate, that's where they make their money.


----------



## diamond.g

Eric said:


> Free? If I want to make my car go a split second faster that will be $2000 please. Oh, and how about that $12,000 to unlock FSD? Not sure if Musk is just evil or a marketing genius but he has people clamoring to take their money while he tokes all day on a couch tweeting out Tesla teasers and trolling Bernie Sanders.
> 
> As for free OS updates, I believe it is a standard that will likely continue as it does with iPhone, Android, etc. The car (hardware) itself comes preloaded with a bunch of turned off switches that people will need to pay to activate, that's where they make their money.



Well not all the software is free, clearly. But no other automaker is updating the look and feel of their infotainment, or adding things like Dashcam/sentry mode on existing vehicles. That stuff gets reserved for a new model year. While it would be nice for the industry to adopt what Tesla is doing in those regards they have been really really slow to. There was an article about a newer version of the Taycan trip planner that prioritizes high speed chargers when planning trips, with Porsche being noncommittal on existing cars getting the update (and with Porsche you have to pay extra for the trip planner functionality IIRC).


----------



## diamond.g

Oh and we did get two performance updates on the Model 3 for free. Then folks started talking about how they would pay for more performance and then tada the $2000 50hp update was born.


----------



## Eric

diamond.g said:


> Oh and we did get two performance updates on the Model 3 for free. Then folks started talking about how they would pay for more performance and then tada the $2000 50hp update was born.



He has them eating out of his hands


----------



## diamond.g

Eric said:


> He has them eating out of his hands
> 
> View attachment 11314



Somewhat Ironically they have refused to take some of our money (those of us with '18 AWD models pretty much have the same cars as the performance models) for a "full" performance unlock.

Going consensus is that they do not want to alienate the '20 folk that started getting the different motor.


----------



## quagmire

If the Model 3 Stealth was still offered, I don't think Acceleration Boost would exist. Heck, if the Stealth still existed, I probably would have gone that direction.


----------



## quagmire

So sounds like Giga Austin is gearing up for actual deliveries and Elon confirmed Model Y's coming out of Austin will head east as planned and have all the new goodies( Structural battery pack and 4680). 

Come on Austin Y for my moms order!* 

*Will still take delivery even if it is a Fremont Y


----------



## User.45

So I've decided to keep my I3 and buy an M3 setting aside my hatred towards Musk. 
I think I could live with its quirks as a second car. I prefer range over anything so 18" wheels, long-range, metallic.
M3 owners, any extra recommendations/things to consider?


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> So I've decided to keep my I3 and buy an M3 setting aside my hatred towards Musk.
> I think I could live with its quirks as a second car. I prefer range over anything so 18" wheels, long-range, metallic.
> M3 owners, any extra recommendations/things to consider?



So you mean the BMW M3?


----------



## quagmire

P_X said:


> So I've decided to keep my I3 and buy an M3 setting aside my hatred towards Musk.
> I think I could live with its quirks as a second car. I prefer range over anything so 18" wheels, long-range, metallic.
> M3 owners, any extra recommendations/things to consider?









Congrats on joining the dark side! Despite your hatred of Musk, you will love the Tesla.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> Congrats on joining the dark side! Despite your hatred of Musk, you will love the Tesla.



Going to assume he means the Model 3 judging by the Musk comment but model names matter here, BMW has an actual M3.

That being the case, congrats!


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Going to assume he means the Model 3 judging by the Musk comment but model names matter here, BMW has an actual M3.
> 
> That being the case, congrats!




I think we have to come to an agreement that a Tesla Model 3 is a TM3 with the model variant suffixes:  SR/LR/P  (thought the SR is now model-variant-less in the name )

The M3 will always be the M3, not the TM3


----------



## cloudflare420

quagmire said:


> So sounds like Giga Austin is gearing up for actual deliveries and Elon confirmed Model Y's coming out of Austin will head east as planned and have all the new goodies( Structural battery pack and 4680).
> 
> Come on Austin Y for my moms order!*
> 
> *Will still take delivery even if it is a Fremont Y



They didn’t confirm the new cells for the Austin Ys…









						Tesla confirms Model Y production started at Gigafactory Texas, now working on final certification
					

Tesla confirmed that Model Y production started at Gigafactory Texas late in 2021, and now the company is working on “final certification” for the new version of the electric SUV being built at the new factory. It looks like Tesla didn’t actually miss its goal to start production at Gigafactory...




					electrek.co


----------



## DT

Also of note, Tesla is upping the V3 Superchargers to 324kW, not sure what can handle this, maybe the newer S and X[?]  And also have the V4s on deck, I'm wondering if in addition to the new specs, they're also planning CSS connectors, like maybe some kind of dual cable setups.


----------



## cloudflare420

I’m going to order the CCS adapter when it’s available on the US site. Can’t wait for the network to open up for non-Teslas


----------



## cloudflare420

DT said:


> Also of note, Tesla is upping the V3 Superchargers to 324kW, not sure what can handle this, maybe the newer S and X[?]  And also have the V4s on deck, I'm wondering if in addition to the new specs, they're also planning CSS connectors, like maybe some kind of dual cable setups.



I think the facelift S and X can charge around that


----------



## quagmire

cloudflare420 said:


> They didn’t confirm the new cells for the Austin Ys…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla confirms Model Y production started at Gigafactory Texas, now working on final certification
> 
> 
> Tesla confirmed that Model Y production started at Gigafactory Texas late in 2021, and now the company is working on...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> electrek.co




If video doesn't start at 8:50 that is where Musk states Giga Texas has been producing Y's with structural battery packs with the 4680. Berlin sticks with 2170 for now. 








cloudflare420 said:


> I’m going to order the CCS adapter when it’s available on the US site. Can’t wait for the network to open up for non-Teslas




Be sure to confirm that CCS support is enabled with your Tesla under the additional information tab under software menu.


----------



## DT

Yeah, all the comments seemed to be saying the earnings call pretty much confirmed the 4680s


----------



## DT

If the Ys out of there are 4680s, get more power, and all the other perks (rear dual pane, Ryzen MCU, etc.,), I'm going to swap for a performance Y


----------



## DT

FMA, the CSS connector is such an ungainly monstrosity ...


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> If the Ys out of there are 4680s, get more power, and all the other perks (rear dual pane, Ryzen MCU, etc.,), I'm going to swap for a performance Y




For a little bit, I wouldn’t expect any major boosts to performance or range outside of the benefits of the weight reduction the front megacasts and 4680 structural battery pack provide unless Fremont changes over to 4680 once Giga Texas produces production Y’s. UNLESS all MYP production moves to Austin. 



DT said:


> FMA, the CSS connector is such an ungainly monstrosity ...




Yeah design and handling, Tesla plug FTW. But, CCS is able to supply more power. So that and a standard plug will have to happen within the next 10 years, gotta get used to it I guess….


----------



## cloudflare420

DT said:


> Yeah, all the comments seemed to be saying the earnings call pretty much confirmed the 4680s



I wonder what happens to the Fremont production then. Will they switch to 4680s asap?


----------



## cloudflare420

DT said:


> FMA, the CSS connector is such an ungainly monstrosity ...



Hate the CCS cables. They’re so ungainly and cumbersome. I road-tripped an id4 few months ago for like 600 miles.


----------



## quagmire

cloudflare420 said:


> I wonder what happens to the Fremont production then. Will they switch to 4680s asap?




Conference call didn’t state what was the plan for Fremont and when they will transition. There have been front mega casts spotted at Fremont so I imagine Fremont will transition. Might wait until Austin can take up more of the load while Fremont is down?

What I would want to know is when will Model 3 transition to front+rear mega casts and 4680 structural pack……


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Yeah design and handling, Tesla plug FTW. But, CCS is able to supply more power. So that and a standard plug will have to happen within the next 10 years, gotta get used to it I guess….




Having two standards in the longer term seems counterproductive, and with Teslas outside of the US using CSS in many markets, that seems like the logical way to go.




cloudflare420 said:


> Hate the CCS cables. They’re so ungainly and cumbersome. I road-tripped an id4 few months ago for like 600 miles.




Ha!  I've never even seen one,  I mean, I'm familiar with the J1772 portion for our 4xe (and charger), but was just basing it on that pic and the Tesla adapter.


FWIW, those not in the know, CCS (Combined Charging System ... I always incorrectly write CSS for maybe obvious reasons ... ), has this port:






The top portion is the J1772 connector (the round portion), like you'll see on L2 home and destination chargers, and some cars only have this (I believe it's mostly in PHEVs like ours).  CSS adds the bottom oval area to accommodate DC charging from commercial fast chargers, but still uses the top as well (for communication), so the charger connector looks like this:


----------



## diamond.g

theSeb said:


> Like a company not run by a blatantly misogynistic libertarian jerk who thinks he is above the law? Or a company not run by a maniac who will dig up your driving data and spew it publicly on Twitter to prove the car was not at fault after you had a major collision? Maybe a company not run by a hypocrite who pretends to care about the environment but then decided it would be cool to get involved with crypto currency bullshit to spike the price, so he could get more money. Or maybe a company not run by a guy who thinks he is genius and decided that SpaceX engineers should design a submarine to rescue kids trapped in a cave and then publicly called the actual person running the rescue operation a pedo guy because he dared to criticse and insult Musk and his submarine. He then doubled down to prove what kind of a person he actually was by hiring a private investigator to dig up dirt on the guy.
> 
> We can only hope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla sexual harassment lawsuits multiply as 6 more women sue Musk-led firm
> 
> 
> Lawyer: Musk "enables the pattern of pervasive sexual harassment and retaliation."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arstechnica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla ordered to pay $137M to Black former worker subjected to racist workplace
> 
> 
> “Elon Musk, you’ve been put on notice.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arstechnica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla worker claims company did little to halt racial, sexual harassment
> 
> 
> African-American man says his co-workers commented on his genitalia, threatened him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arstechnica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla has a problem with racism in its factory—so do many of its rivals
> 
> 
> NYT report is the latest example of black autoworkers enduring racist acts and language.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arstechnica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I guess the above is just business as usual for many people in the US these days. At least other CEOs are not tweeting about sending women to TITS university.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Musk spent $50,000 digging into critic’s personal life
> 
> 
> "Bet ya a signed dollar it's true" was an expression of uncertainty, Musk says.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arstechnica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Elon Musk's joke about 'TITS' won't help tech's problems with women
> 
> 
> Elon Musk has highlighted just how much of a boys’ club the tech industry still is, after he made a joke about starting a university called ‘TITS’.
> 
> 
> 
> womensagenda.com.au



So, I take it you really don’t like their ceo.


----------



## quagmire

diamond.g said:


> So, I take it you really don’t like their ceo.




This is not a defense of Musk, but I still find it funny and not seen a good explanation how you can hate Tesla because of its asshole CEO, but are fans of Apple whose founder is equally known to be an asshole( especially during the early years).


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> So you mean the BMW M3?



Model3. I'll not buy another BMW. Their dealerships are giving me the heebie-jeebies. Last place I went had a "masks optional" policy contrary to my state's mask mandate...


----------



## User.45

quagmire said:


> This is not a defense of Musk, but I still find it funny and not seen a good explanation how you can hate Tesla because of its asshole CEO, but are fans of Apple whose founder is equally known to be an asshole( especially during the early years).



Well, per that analogy, I should wait to buy my first Tesla when Musk died. Jobs may have been an awful person, but his karma caught up to him when he managed to die of a curable cancer.


----------



## User.45

cloudflare420 said:


> Hate the CCS cables. They’re so ungainly and cumbersome. I road-tripped an id4 few months ago for like 600 miles.



how did you like the ID4?


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> Model3. I'll not buy another BMW. Their dealerships are giving me the heebie-jeebies. Last place I went had a "masks optional" policy contrary to my state's mask mandate...



Same with our BMW dealership when I went in to sell it back to them after the lease, maybe 1/3 were wearing masks, I told the guy who was helping us he would need to put one on or refer us to someone else who would. Then there was a maskless lady sitting toward the front who kept coughing without covering her mouth, we basically only came in when called and did all of our signing outside.

Seriously man, a huge swath of this country simply doesn't give a fuck about who they infect. When they asked for my feedback they got it with a 1 star rating, who knows, maybe someone at the top was listening.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> Same with our BMW dealership when I went in to sell it back to them after the lease, maybe 1/3 were wearing masks, I told the guy who was helping us he would need to put one on or refer us to someone else who would. Then there was a maskless lady sitting toward the front who kept coughing without covering her mouth, we basically only came in when called and did all of our signing outside.
> 
> Seriously man, a huge swath of this country simply doesn't give a fuck about who they infect. When they asked for my feedback they got it with a 1 star rating, who knows, maybe someone at the top was listening.



When I saw the "masks encouraged but optional" written on the door I was like faaaawk, I've already made this appointment and don't have time to go back.


----------



## quagmire

P_X said:


> Well, per that analogy, I should wait to buy my first Tesla when Musk died. Jobs may have been an awful person, but his karma caught up to him when he managed to die of a curable cancer.




Did you start buying Apple products after Cook took over and Jobs died?


----------



## User.45

quagmire said:


> Did you start buying Apple products after Cook took over and Jobs died?



I bought my first mac after Jobs died.


----------



## Eric

I know I bust on Musk but I honestly do respect him for starting such a successful company and I love driving his cars. Not a fan of some of his Twitter exploits or that he seems to be a one man show but aside from that he seems okay.


----------



## quagmire

Neat latest Tesla app update provides charging stats. Reveals despite being parked for the past month( new job, been away training), car still uses juice. Only cost a dollar though.


----------



## User.45

quagmire said:


> View attachment 11380
> 
> Neat latest Tesla app update provides charging stats. Reveals despite being parked for the past month( new job, been away training), car still uses juice. Only cost a dollar though.



That's a lot of energy for an idle car. About 4-5% of my household's monthly use.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> View attachment 11380
> 
> Neat latest Tesla app update provides charging stats. Reveals despite being parked for the past month( new job, been away training), car still uses juice. Only cost a dollar though.



Excellent, thanks for sharing, just updated.


----------



## quagmire

P_X said:


> That's a lot of energy for an idle car. About 4-5% of my household's monthly use.




Granted I did drive it once consuming 4 Kwh.

The remaining 7 is probably a mix of battery management keeping the battery in an acceptable temperature range in the cold days we have been having, me updating the car with OTA updates, etc.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> That's a lot of energy for an idle car. About 4-5% of my household's monthly use.



$1 for a month seems more than reasonable just to keep it topped off.


----------



## cloudflare420

my charge stats


----------



## Eric

Okay, I'll jump in here too... I've made a few long trips.  But love the comparison with gas prices.

Also added the cost per KW, it's wrong because I'm getting it at .09 I just need to let it know.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Excellent, thanks for sharing, just updated.




Hmm. Not seeing this in the app. Where is it?


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> Hmm. Not seeing this in the app. Where is it?



Did you get the latest update? I had to grab it manually just a little bit ago. Then you'll see Charge Stats on the main screen.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Did you get the latest update? I had to grab it manually just a little bit ago. Then you'll see Charge Stats on the main screen.
> 
> View attachment 11384



I did grab the latest.  Version 4.5.1.  No such thing on my app. Maybe my car is just too old.


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> I did grab the latest.  Version 4.5.1.  No such thing on my app. Maybe my car is just too old.



There's some speculation that the feature may not be rolled out to everyone just yet but that's the same version I have. Here's some discussion on it over at Reddit


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/sf4et2


----------



## User.45

This is interesting. So supercharging is $0.39 per kWh? Electrify America is $0.43 for guest charging and $0.31 for member charging with a $4 monthly member fee and there's a 10 min grace period then $0.41/min for hogging the charger. If you can charge at home and have a separate car for roadtrips, charging costs don't matter much. But I think only Tesla's network is reliable and dense enough to enable roadtrips. 






__





						Pricing and Plans for EV Charging | Electrify America
					

Electrify America aims to keep prices low while providing more electric vehicle chargers, with faster speeds, in better locations across the U.S. Learn about our pricing.




					www.electrifyamerica.com


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> This is interesting. So supercharging is $0.39 per kWh? Electrify America is $0.43 for guest charging and $0.31 for member charging with a $4 monthly member fee and there's a 10 min grace period then $0.41/min for hogging the charger. If you can charge at home and have a separate car for roadtrips, charging costs don't matter much. But I think only Tesla's network is reliable and dense enough to enable roadtrips.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pricing and Plans for EV Charging | Electrify America
> 
> 
> Electrify America aims to keep prices low while providing more electric vehicle chargers, with faster speeds, in better locations across the U.S. Learn about our pricing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.electrifyamerica.com



Right, we're going to use it for a road trip in the spring and plan the stops along the way. I'm also going to subscribe to FSD for a month during that time, so it should be pretty fun overall. The superchargers are spendy but they're also really fast, I can just hit it for a few minutes on my drives from Sacramento to the bay area and that's all I need to get home. It's almost the equivalent of stopping for gas.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> Right, we're going to use it for a road trip in the spring and plan the stops along the way. I'm also going to subscribe to FSD for a month during that time, so it should be pretty fun overall. The superchargers are spendy but they're also really fast, I can just hit it for a few minutes on my drives from Sacramento to the bay area and that's all I need to get home. It's almost the equivalent of stopping for gas.



On by east cost trip, one thing really impressed me: never ever having to wait in cue to get Supercharging. In contrast, DC fast chargers are really unreliably and of high demand, so unless EA has 5-8 DC fast chargers lined up each site every 5 miles, it's  no competition for Tesla...for now. That said, I have 2 free DC fast chargers in my neighborhood, but can't really charge at my new house. At our current milage, 1 full charge would easily last 4-6 weeks. But if I buy a 2nd car, it has to be able to do roadtrips so even if I think Ioniq 5 appears to be a substantially better car than the TM3, I think the end experience will be defined by Tesla having a substantially better charging network. 

This is the duality of the eSUV. It doesn't matter much how much space you have in the car for a 10 minute city errand, and the range doesn't matter there anyway. But space starts mattering for trips >1 hour, and then the range suddenly becomes a limitation too.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> On by east cost trip, one thing really impressed me: never ever having to wait in cue to get Supercharging. In contrast, DC fast chargers are really unreliably and of high demand, so unless EA has 5-8 DC fast chargers lined up each site every 5 miles, it's  no competition for Tesla...for now. That said, I have 2 free DC fast chargers in my neighborhood, but can't really charge at my new house. At our current milage, 1 full charge would easily last 4-6 weeks. But if I buy a 2nd car, it has to be able to do roadtrips so even if I think Ioniq 5 appears to be a substantially better car than the TM3, I think the end experience will be defined by Tesla having a substantially better charging network.
> 
> This is the duality of the eSUV. It doesn't matter much how much space you have in the car for a 10 minute city errand, and the range doesn't matter there anyway. But space starts mattering for trips >1 hour, and then the range suddenly becomes a limitation too.



Bummer you can't charge at home but I've noticed in the bay area it's the same way, especially in densely populated areas where they have to park on the street and there is no shortage of Teslas. There are so many chargers available that you get to pretty much choose when and where to stop and they're fast enough that you can top off in minutes in most cases.

Something else I've learned that's comforting is that even if you're outside of populated areas there are chargers everywhere, maybe a little slower but they'll work in a pinch to get you where you need to go. I just make sure I have my adapter handy at all times.


----------



## diamond.g

P_X said:


> This is interesting. So supercharging is $0.39 per kWh? Electrify America is $0.43 for guest charging and $0.31 for member charging with a $4 monthly member fee and there's a 10 min grace period then $0.41/min for hogging the charger. If you can charge at home and have a separate car for roadtrips, charging costs don't matter much. But I think only Tesla's network is reliable and dense enough to enable roadtrips.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pricing and Plans for EV Charging | Electrify America
> 
> 
> Electrify America aims to keep prices low while providing more electric vehicle chargers, with faster speeds, in better locations across the U.S. Learn about our pricing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.electrifyamerica.com



SC costs vary based on location and in some places time of day. It used to be much cheaper (overall) but costs have gone up.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> View attachment 11380
> 
> Neat latest Tesla app update provides charging stats. Reveals despite being parked for the past month( new job, been away training), car still uses juice. Only cost a dollar though.




Nice, yeah, grabbed the 4.5.1 got the stats now too.

Just a general FYI (maybe for @Eric), sometimes there's not a notification of a new version of the app - you can do a "manual" (like mentioned below), by searching for the app, opening the app info page, and from there you get the update button.

Clearly, some of the 3rd party analytic type apps provide more details, but Tesla is starting to catch up with some good, basic usage data for folks who don't want to use a different solution.

I need to get my 75 kWh so I can start getting gas comparisons.   I was able to simple select Florida >> FPL for my power provider and it plugged in the rate. 

Hahaha, I plugged in my Other rate as $0.00 since all our known destinations are free


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> On by east cost trip, one thing really impressed me: never ever having to wait in cue to get Supercharging. In contrast, DC fast chargers are really unreliably and of high demand, so unless EA has 5-8 DC fast chargers lined up each site every 5 miles, it's  no competition for Tesla...for now. That said, I have 2 free DC fast chargers in my neighborhood, but can't really charge at my new house. At our current milage, 1 full charge would easily last 4-6 weeks. But if I buy a 2nd car, it has to be able to do roadtrips so even if I think Ioniq 5 appears to be a substantially better car than the TM3, I think the end experience will be defined by Tesla having a substantially better charging network.
> 
> This is the duality of the eSUV. It doesn't matter much how much space you have in the car for a 10 minute city errand, and the range doesn't matter there anyway. But space starts mattering for trips >1 hour, and then the range suddenly becomes a limitation too.



After seeing the BS from Republicans in Congress and Senator Manchin (and some on this forum) against putting EV chargers everywhere, I can understand why Tesla didn’t wait for them to be built by others or the government. It’s pretty pathetic that we don’t have 3 regular chargers (or more) for every Tesla charger out there. Thanks, big oil.

I believe this is the #1 reason that Tesla is eating everybody else’s lunch in the EV market right now.


----------



## DT

Ahh, I hadn't even read this yet (mostly since I'm following pretty casually since we're probably 2 years out):









						Rivian R1S, R1T EVs with Long-Range 400+-Mile Battery Delayed to 2023
					

The electric automaker will prioritize R1S and R1T trucks and SUVs equipped with the 314-mile 'Large' pack for 2022.




					www.caranddriver.com
				




Key takeaways:


*Rivian is pushing back production of its R1T and R1S with the biggest Max battery pack to 2023.*
*Models equipped with the Explore package also won't see production until 2023.*
*All 2022 Rivian trucks and SUVs out in the coming year will be equipped with the Large battery pack and the Adventure package.*

I think 2023 is going to be pretty exciting for EVs, startups reasonably well established (or not), supply chains opening up,  major players real commitment in place (or clearly being left behind).

I can't believe in a few months we'll have owned our first xEV for a year!


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> *After seeing the BS from Republicans in Congress and Senator Manchin (and some on this forum) against putting EV chargers everywhere,* I can understand why Tesla didn’t wait for them to be built by others or the government. It’s pretty pathetic that we don’t have 3 regular chargers (or more) for every Tesla charger out there. Thanks, big oil.
> 
> I believe this is the #1 reason that Tesla is eating everybody else’s lunch in the EV market right now.



Are you fkn kidding me? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess he didn't say shit about a bunch of filthy gas stations everywhere taking up 20 times the space. We need to primary this turd.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> Are you fkn kidding me? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess he didn't say shit about a bunch of filthy gas stations everywhere taking up 20 times the space. *We need to primary this turd.*




No way that is going to happen.  It simply isn't.  Sorry.

And if you do primary him, you will lose in the General.  He is there until he decides he is done.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> No way that is going to happen.  It simply isn't.  Sorry.
> 
> And if you do primary him, you will lose in the General.  He is there until he decides he is done.



^ Hey, if it's anyone I trust it's the word of a person who only watches Fox News, it was with this same fervor Republicans said Trump would win. Thank you for your well rounded and unbiased opinion.


----------



## User.45

@SuperMatt, @Eric. Secondary to local pollution, coal is way more expensive than its price tag implies and we don't even have to dive into the complexities of climate change, just the prevalence and cost of lung disease. It's sad that these facts are politicized, but they are and while I share the concerns mentioned here, can we avoid politics in this thread?


----------



## DT

All the different articles talking about this, I learned a few really cool things about the BMW i3, including they sold 200K over the life of the vehicle:









						BMW i3 Production Reportedly Coming To An End In July
					

The boxy i3 is finally being taken out of production after nearly a decade and it will get an electric crossover replacement, the iX1.




					insideevs.com


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> All the different articles talking about this, I learned a few really cool things about the BMW i3, including they sold 200K over the life of the vehicle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BMW i3 Production Reportedly Coming To An End In July
> 
> 
> The boxy i3 is finally being taken out of production after nearly a decade and it will get an electric crossover replacement, the iX1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> insideevs.com



It was time to discontinue it... It's a brilliant city cruiser at <$16K for warmer climate states with narrow streets. It beats most other cars 0-30, it can almost do a 180 degree turn to the adjacent lane and the suicide doors are convenient to pack your kids in without breaking your back in the process. But BMW asking $60K for it anew has been a joke from day #1.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> ^ Hey, if it's anyone I trust it's the word of a person who only watches Fox News, it was with this same fervor Republicans said Trump would win. Thank you for your well rounded and unbiased opinion.




I will acquiesce to @P_X 's wishes and keep politics out of this thread.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> I will acquiesce to @P_X 's wishes and keep politics out of this thread.



Disappointing that I won't get Fox News' latest talking points but I'll survive it.


----------



## DT

I actually like keeping this thread to more technical, usage, model, etc., discussions, there's probably enough politics in EV talk to make a dedicated thread


----------



## DT

Holy smokes!

Koenigsegg's Tiny Electric Motor Makes 335 HP and 443 LB-FT of Torque​Dubbed the Quark, the motor weighs just 63 pounds.














						Koenigsegg's Tiny Electric Motor Makes 335 HP and 443 LB-FT of Torque
					

Dubbed the Quark, the motor weighs just 63 pounds.




					www.roadandtrack.com
				





(note that's a short term peak, but still very impressive)


----------



## DT

*Stupid Tesla Tricks Vol I*

So prior to the '21 models, and I think it may have been like '19, they revised the rear deck, the platform behind the rear seats.  It used to be open to the trunk, with a speaker type grill over it, this was to open up the trunk mount sub, allowed much more low frequency in the cabin - and now it's solid to reduce road noise.  Well, a guy with a later model, cut his out, made a nice cover, and used a sound RTA meter and showed how much more low freq was present, and also said that folding down the rear seat(s) does the same.

Yep. 

Put the seats down, throw on some music, dial up the sub, wow, hahaha, it's like I added a 20" sub to the trunk.   FWIW, this will also amplify the rear motor sounds which is pretty fun.

***

Also found out about a secret diagnostics mode - hold the word TESLA in the software menu for ~10 seconds you get a prompt to enter Access Code, one of them is 'dynotest' which throws up a huge message, and disables all stability/safety controls, basically anything that might limit the full output so you can get a max dyno reading.

Speaking of dynos, while the car is sort of spec'ed at 450HP, several dynoes (in dyno mode ), showed it was more like 470-480 at the __wheels__   One test even showed 522AWHP with a 95% charge, wow.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> *Stupid Tesla Tricks Vol I*
> 
> So prior to the '21 models, and I think it may have been like '19, they revised the rear deck, the platform behind the rear seats.  It used to be open to the trunk, with a speaker type grill over it, this was to open up the trunk mount sub, allowed much more low frequency in the cabin - and now it's solid to reduce road noise.  Well, a guy with a later model, cut his out, made a nice cover, and used a sound RTA meter and showed how much more low freq was present, and also said that folding down the rear seat(s) does the same.
> 
> Yep.
> 
> Put the seats down, throw on some music, dial up the sub, wow, hahaha, it's like I added a 20" sub to the trunk.   FWIW, this will also amplify the rear motor sounds which is pretty fun.
> 
> ***
> 
> Also found out about a secret diagnostics mode - hold the word TESLA in the software menu for ~10 seconds you get a prompt to enter Access Code, one of them is 'dynotest' which throws up a huge message, and disables all stability/safety controls, basically anything that might limit the full output so you can get a max dyno reading.
> 
> Speaking of dynos, while the car is sort of spec'ed at 450HP, several dynoes (in dyno mode ), showed it was more like 470-480 at the __wheels__   One test even showed 522AWHP with a 95% charge, wow.




What do they make without dynomode engaged? Or is this like Samsung and others where the phone is able to recognize it is running geekbench so gives extra power for good test results, but the user in real tasks is unable to utilize.....

Or VW able to know when the car is doing an emissions test.......


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> What do they make without dynomode engaged? Or is this like Samsung and others where the phone is able to recognize it is running geekbench so gives extra power for good test results, but the user in real tasks is unable to utilize.....
> 
> Or VW able to know when the car is doing an emissions test.......




It just disables traction controls, people monitor max motor outputs, etc., and everything is within the expected range.  On rollers, you can get enough slip for the ECU to retard timing a bit (on an ICE vehicle), I've seen 25-30 HP gained from just pulling a fuse.

And some of the 470-480 range didn't even use (or didn't mention using) that mode, and some are pretty notable sources for objective data.


----------



## diamond.g

DT said:


> It just disables traction controls, people monitor max motor outputs, etc., and everything is within the expected range.  On rollers, you can get enough slip for the ECU to retard timing a bit (on an ICE vehicle), I've seen 25-30 HP gained from just pulling a fuse.
> 
> And some of the 470-480 range didn't even use (or didn't mention using) that mode, and some are pretty notable sources for objective data.



Even with dynomode at least the Plaid S has proven fairly temperamental. I think the only way to get true power from them is on an axle dyno, I have not seen anyone show the 1020hp on wheels. IIRC there is a video of the car putting down near 1100 hp.


----------



## Eric

Decided to subscribe to FSD for a month and used it on a trip yesterday, lane changing is the biggest benefit that I can see. Navigation is all over the place, it was not able to take me to a single destination without a bunch of alerts and warnings, then it would fight me to actually get in the lane it was telling me to turn from. 

These weren't hard destinations either, basically just right off the free way with maybe two turns. This thing is freaking terrible and I feel like I dodged a bullet by not actually purchasing it, they do make the claim that it's in beta but this thing is nowhere near ready from prime time.


----------



## quagmire

Eric said:


> Decided to subscribe to FSD for a month and used it on a trip yesterday, lane changing is the biggest benefit that I can see. Navigation is all over the place, it was not able to take me to a single destination without a bunch of alerts and warnings, then it would fight me to actually get in the lane it was telling me to turn from.
> 
> These weren't hard destinations either, basically just right off the free way with maybe two turns. This thing is freaking terrible and I feel like I dodged a bullet by not actually purchasing it, they do make the claim that it's in beta but this thing is nowhere near ready from prime time.




Did you only use it on the highway or try to go on local roads? 

FSD is only "capable" of basic highway functions. Once it takes the off ramp, it is no longer able to navigate for you. The FSD Beta Beta is testing out the navigate on autopilot on city streets function. But regular branch, navigate on autopilot is only for highways.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> Decided to subscribe to FSD for a month and used it on a trip yesterday, lane changing is the biggest benefit that I can see. Navigation is all over the place, it was not able to take me to a single destination without a bunch of alerts and warnings, then it would fight me to actually get in the lane it was telling me to turn from.
> 
> These weren't hard destinations either, basically just right off the free way with maybe two turns. This thing is freaking terrible and I feel like I dodged a bullet by not actually purchasing it, they do make the claim that it's in beta but this thing is nowhere near ready from prime time.



That was sorta my experience. I'll add though that the car shifting lanes really scared me, especially the part when it "fights you" when you wanna override.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> Did you only use it on the highway or try to go on local roads?
> 
> FSD is only "capable" of basic highway functions. Once it takes the off ramp, it is no longer able to navigate for you. The FSD Beta Beta is testing out the navigate on autopilot on city streets function. But regular branch, navigate on autopilot is only for highways.



Yes, I tried on both. It was only able to take the offramp one time out of 4 attempts. The other 3 times it put me in the wrong lane or wouldn't move me over automatically, I had to break out of it to take over. Once on the city street I expected that I would have to take over but it fought me on sudden lane changes as if it were still trying to drive itself, so I had to drop navigation entirely, presumably because it's set to FSD to automatic on navigation.

It's confusing and buggy but the automatic lane changing on the freeway worked great. Based on this experience there's no way I would ever purchase it. I'll keep using it throughout the month and playing with it though.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> Yes, I tried on both. It was only able to take the offramp one time out of 4 attempts. The other 3 times it put me in the wrong lane or wouldn't move me over automatically, I had to break out of it to take over. Once on the city street I expected that I would have to take over but it fought me on sudden lane changes as if it were still trying to drive itself, so I had to drop navigation entirely, presumably because it's set to FSD to automatic on navigation.
> 
> It's confusing and buggy but the automatic lane changing on the freeway worked great. Based on this experience there's no way I would ever purchase it. I'll keep using it throughout the month and playing with it though.



In my experience in driving around in NY/NJ, the navigation doesn't know which exact lanes to take most of the time, especially if there are 3 or more lanes. Which takes us to, if the nav doesn't know, how would autopilot know it. Tesla's navigation is years behind.


----------



## SuperMatt

I’m disturbed that beta software that is fighting drivers over which lane to drive in is legal and currently in use.

We need laws to regulate all forms of automated driving, ASAP.


----------



## diamond.g

Eric said:


> Yes, I tried on both. It was only able to take the offramp one time out of 4 attempts. The other 3 times it put me in the wrong lane or wouldn't move me over automatically, I had to break out of it to take over. Once on the city street I expected that I would have to take over but it fought me on sudden lane changes as if it were still trying to drive itself, so I had to drop navigation entirely, presumably because it's set to FSD to automatic on navigation.
> 
> It's confusing and buggy but the automatic lane changing on the freeway worked great. Based on this experience there's no way I would ever purchase it. I'll keep using it throughout the month and playing with it though.



On City streets it shouldn’t be doing anything more than lane keeping. (unless you got into the Navigate on Cit’s Streets beta)


----------



## DT

My current Charge Stats show $9 total spent with a gas equivalent of $63 (i.e., savings of $54, and that's a pretty short timespan).

One contributor is my operating network of free power (and tasty parking) 

Me and my MYP charging buddy


----------



## SuperMatt

Had to travel farther than usual this weekend, near the edge of the vehicle’s range for the trip. I used Plugshare and found a free charger a short walk from my desired destination. When I got there, it was definitely a free charger, and in good working order!


----------



## DT

DT said:


> Me and my MYP charging buddy




And WTF, the MYP has a 255/275 combo and the M3P has a 235 at all four corners, really should've had a 245/265 at a minimum.

Current plan:  255/35 on all corners, 5mm spacer on the rear, finally use my killer extended lugs I've had sitting here for like 6 months ...


----------



## Eric

Look, it doesn't even work when you press the wrong side.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1490034421038305280/


----------



## cloudflare420

Yeah, I've had this issue a few times over the past month. Just have to keep pre heating the car. Eventually it will open.

Another example of poor Tesla engineering


----------



## Eric

cloudflare420 said:


> Yeah, I've had this issue a few times over the past month. Just have to keep pre heating the car. Eventually it will open.
> 
> Another example of poor Tesla engineering



And every other car maker, I'm all for calling out Tesla but you seem to want to actually single them out unfairly.

Here you go, choose your make and model:


			https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=car+door+handle+frozen


----------



## Herdfan

This could be interesting.  Seems Dodge wants some customer input on a new EV Truck.









						Ram wants customers to help design its electric pickup
					

Ram is launching a program to connect with customers during the development of its upcoming electric truck. RamRevolution.com will provide updates and ask for input on the vehicle.




					www.foxnews.com
				





So far Ford is the closest with an EV Truck that actual truck buyers will want.  Need to see more on the Chevy but it has to be ahead of the Tesla no matter how bad it might be.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> This could be interesting.  Seems Dodge wants some customer input on a new EV Truck.


----------



## cloudflare420

Eric said:


> And every other car maker, I'm all for calling out Tesla but you seem to want to actually single them out unfairly.
> 
> Here you go, choose your make and model:
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=car+door+handle+frozen



Unfair?

There are a constant stream of issues stemming from the lack of proper testing on these cars.

Do we need to go into the widespread heat pump failures? Or the fact that the auto wipers and high beams don’t work properly?


----------



## Eric

cloudflare420 said:


> Unfair?



Yes



cloudflare420 said:


> There are a constant stream of issues stemming from the lack of proper testing on these cars.
> 
> Do we need to go into the widespread heat pump failures? Or the fact that the auto wipers and high beams don’t work properly?



As there are for many cars, yet we only hear you lashing out at Tesla for some reason. You are an owner, is that right?


----------



## SuperMatt

cloudflare420 said:


> Unfair?
> 
> There are a constant stream of issues stemming from the lack of proper testing on these cars.
> 
> Do we need to go into the widespread heat pump failure issues? Or the fact that the auto wipers and high beams simply don’t work properly?



I think Tesla has been great in some areas, but subpar in others. They could have made their luxury-priced car into an actual luxury car by sweating those small details of build quality. As it stands, they have left an opening for the other luxury brands to assert themselves in the high-end EV market.

Going against conventional wisdom helped them in many ways, but hurt them in others. For example, the Model X had those DeLorean-style doors, which ended up being unpopular in actual use. If you look at their Model X page on their website now, they don’t have a single picture of the car with its doors open. I also think the decision to eschew knobs and dials for essential functions and put them all on a big touch-screen is a huge user interface error.

It seems to me these “cool” door handles (which are more prone to freezing than other door handles for sure) are yet another unforced error - something that they “re-thought” that didn’t really need to be re-thought. I am actually surprised they didn’t literally reinvent the wheels on their cars.


----------



## cloudflare420

Eric said:


> As there are for many cars, yet we only hear you lashing out at Tesla for some reason. You are an owner, is that right?



I’ve never owned something this expensive where basic things like auto high beams or auto wipers have a kind of mind of their own because some idiot decided AI was better than a cheap little rain sensor.

But yes, please keep crying about criticism towards Tesla being unfair!


----------



## Eric

cloudflare420 said:


> I’ve never owned something this expensive where basic things like auto high beams or auto wipers have a kind of mind of their own because some idiot decided AI was better than a cheap little rain sensor.
> 
> But yes, please keep crying about criticism towards Tesla being unfair!



As I am about the fact that it can have things like basic cruise control without all the AI, but I knowingly purchased a car based on AI while understanding its shortcomings. Why in the world would you buy a vehicle for that kind of money when you despise it so much?


----------



## cloudflare420

SuperMatt said:


> I think Tesla has been great in some areas, but subpar in others. They could have made their luxury-priced car into an actual luxury car by sweating those small details of build quality. As it stands, they have left an opening for the other luxury brands to assert themselves in the high-end EV market.
> 
> Going against conventional wisdom helped them in many ways, but hurt them in others. For example, the Model X had those DeLorean-style doors, which ended up being unpopular in actual use. If you look at their Model X page on their website now, they don’t have a single picture of the car with its doors open. I also think the decision to eschew knobs and dials for essential functions and put them all on a big touch-screen is a huge user interface error.
> 
> It seems to me these “cool” door handles (which are more prone to freezing than other door handles for sure) are yet another unforced error - something that they “re-thought” that didn’t really need to be re-thought. I am actually surprised they didn’t literally reinvent the wheels on their cars.



Yeah, this is spot on.

There are so many things that they do well (SC network, iOS app, powertrain calibration, performance, utilization of space are just a few examples), but when you get to the issues, some of them are just annoying and people want to act like that they don't exist.

Off the top of my head, we have: hit-or-miss build quality, vision-only AP that doesn't work, widespread heat pump failures, frozen door handles/stuck doors, broken auto high-beams/wipers, long service wait times (I just opened the app and the next appointment is nearly 2-3 weeks out), and poor customer service (it took nearly 3 months to get registration for the car and they only started the process AFTER the temp tags expired and I kept calling to ask what happened)


----------



## quagmire

To play a little devils advocate and I think it plays towards @Eric point in that, yes Tesla has issues. But they all do in some form or fashion. BUT I will not try to diminish the issues that Tesla have on their hands. They are legit issues. Especially the heat pump issues. 

But Camaro forums are littered with people who had issues with the 8 speed speed automatic, lifters failing on the LT1 V8, oil pump failures on the LT4, poor paint, the rear diff groaning when cold( mine did this), and quality issues such as the headliner popping lose( mine exhibited this, replaced, and occurred again). Ford had issues with Coyote's ticking on the 2018 Mustangs, the Voodoo loved to burn oil and a few other issues, etc. 

My issue isn't calling Tesla out on them cause they should be called out. Yet the issues other automakers face don't get much attention as Tesla's issues does. That is what can irk me and I think is what Eric was getting at.


----------



## SuperMatt

quagmire said:


> To play a little devils advocate and I think it plays towards @Eric point in that, yes Tesla has issues. But they all do in some form or fashion. BUT I will not try to diminish the issues that Tesla have on their hands. They are legit issues. Especially the heat pump issues.
> 
> But Camaro forums are littered with people who had issues with the 8 speed speed automatic, lifters failing on the LT1 V8, oil pump failures on the LT4, poor paint, the rear diff groaning when cold( mine did this), and quality issues such as the headliner popping lose( mine exhibited this, replaced, and occurred again). Ford had issues with Coyote's ticking on the 2018 Mustangs, the Voodoo loved to burn oil and a few other issues, etc.
> 
> My issue isn't calling Tesla out on them cause they should be called out. Yet the issues other automakers face don't get much attention as Tesla's issues does. That is what can irk me and I think is what Eric was getting at.



It reminds me of iPhone. When a new model has any issue, no matter how minor, it becomes a huge story because Apple is the top dog. Same for Tesla when it comes to EVs. They are the market leader in the segment, so they will be viewed with more scrutiny.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> I also think the decision to eschew knobs and dials for essential functions and put them all on a big touch-screen is a huge user interface error.



Tesla is not alone in this.  Mercedes basically chased my parents out of their S-Class because of that stupid control knob neither could work.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> To play a little devils advocate and I think it plays towards @Eric point in that, yes Tesla has issues. But they all do in some form or fashion. BUT I will not try to diminish the issues that Tesla have on their hands. They are legit issues. Especially the heat pump issues.
> 
> But Camaro forums are littered with people who had issues with the 8 speed speed automatic, lifters failing on the LT1 V8, oil pump failures on the LT4, poor paint, the rear diff groaning when cold( mine did this), and quality issues such as the headliner popping lose( mine exhibited this, replaced, and occurred again). Ford had issues with Coyote's ticking on the 2018 Mustangs, the Voodoo loved to burn oil and a few other issues, etc.
> 
> My issue isn't calling Tesla out on them cause they should be called out. Yet the issues other automakers face don't get much attention as Tesla's issues does. That is what can irk me and I think is what Eric was getting at.



Well said. I also had a lot of issues with my BMW that were worthy of calling out and I've done so on here (and other places) a few times but I still enjoyed the car overall. IMO someone like @P_X who has driven it and is contemplating buying one is taking his time to make the right decision while being smart about it, weighting out the options, etc. and it's different than buying one and then hating it afterwards. Maybe that isn't the case but when that's all you see, that's the impression you get.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> *They are the market leader in the segment, so they will be viewed with more scrutiny.*



Exactly. Comes with the status that Tesla has *earned.* In an Apple vs. Samsung analogy, Samsung did have many chances to overtake. Samsung has had better hardware perhaps more times than not, yet Apple won out with the level of durability and long-term support and software upgrades they offered many years out. Longevity will make or break Tesla ultimately. The software stuff is definitely there, but the hardware needs to survive too, and that's where I have doubts.


Eric said:


> Well said. I also had a lot of issues with my BMW that were worthy of calling out and I've done so on here (and other places) a few times but I still enjoyed the car overall. IMO someone like @P_X who has driven it and is contemplating buying one is taking his time to make the right decision while being smart about it, weighting out the options, etc. and it's different than buying one and then hating it afterwards. Maybe that isn't the case but when that's all you see, that's the impression you get.



I'll say that I think the car is more overhyped than dissed, this is why it will never meet the expectations: they are unrealistic. If you ignore the hype, then it's a fascinating car with some irritating solutions to issues also invented by Tesla. That said, I have to say, I've never driven >300 miles before, without feeling landsick (sense of persistent motion lasting hours after getting off a plane/car). I had zero landsickness with the Tesla, and this is probably not secondary to the refueling stops, because I've gotten landsick with my I3 too after longer trips. 

TBH, the only person whose opinion I accept as authority on the build quality is an old automotive engineer friend of mine who happened to work on fixing those notorious Model X doors (not a fan...).


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> I'll say that I think the car is more overhyped than dissed, this is why it will never meet the expectations: they are unrealistic.




That's a big reason why I'm exceptionally pleased, I knew how to correctly set my expectations:

They were high in terms of performance/drivetrain, charging, continuous updates and improvements, audio - expectations exceeded.

They were moderate, cautiously hopeful in terms of QA/BQ, and to quote Peter Venkman, "... call it ... fate, call it luck, call it karma ...", I got a solid car - expectations met.

They were ambivalent about AP/FSD, etc., all the automated driving type tech, because that's just not for me - N/A 


***


I did finally get enough charging, plug in my rates, etc., and get some stats, pretty cool:







And there's a big value for me in terms of convenience, not dealing with a gas station, etc.


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> I did finally get enough charging, plug in my rates, etc., and get some stats, pretty cool:
> 
> And there's a big value for me in terms of convenience, not dealing with a gas station, etc.



The biggest benefit by far, there's nothing like coming home, pugging in and never worrying about gas stations again. Even on longer drives I rarely have to stop to charge but when I do it's only 6 to 12 minutes to get me back to my garage which is nothing.

The cost savings on fuel and convenience of this car has exceeded my expectations.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> The biggest benefit by far, there's nothing like coming home, pugging in and never worrying about gas stations again. Even on longer drives I rarely have to stop to charge but when I do it's only 6 to 12 minutes to get me back to my garage which is nothing.
> 
> The cost savings on fuel and convenience of this car has exceeded my expectations.




It's probably the biggest flip for me, I knew the car would be quick, quiet, etc., but admittedly, I had a lot of charging and range anxiety going into this, hahaha, now it's such a non-issue, I regret not doing it sooner


----------



## Citysnaps

I'm new to EVs and might be considering an Ioniq 5 in the future. Pretty sure I'll be OK regarding range anxiety living in the SF Bay Area, and taking an occasional long trip.

Regarding EV's in general, anybody concerned about breaking down in areas far from home where repairs (whatever that might be) are not available. Get a long distance tow back home and deal with it later?  Any issues with towing EVs (flatbed, etc)?

Thanks for any insight!


----------



## User.45

citypix said:


> I'm new to EVs and might be considering an Ioniq 5 in the future. Pretty sure I'll be OK regarding range anxiety living in the SF Bay Area, and taking an occasional long trip.
> 
> Regarding EV's in general, anybody concerned about breaking down in areas far from home where repairs (whatever that might be) are not available. Get a long distance tow back home and deal with it later?  Any issues with towing EVs (flatbed, etc)?
> 
> Thanks for any insight!



I've gotten towed more times than I like (3 or 4 times, mostly flat tires). Flatbed needed, at least for the i3. The cars are generally more reliable and require less maintenance than gas cars. I think the only difference is in extreme colds.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> The biggest benefit by far, there's nothing like coming home, pugging in and never worrying about gas stations again. Even on longer drives I rarely have to stop to charge but when I do it's only 6 to 12 minutes to get me back to my garage which is nothing.
> 
> The cost savings on fuel and convenience of this car has exceeded my expectations.





DT said:


> It's probably the biggest flip for me, I knew the car would be quick, quiet, etc., but admittedly, I had a lot of charging and range anxiety going into this, hahaha, now it's such a non-issue, I regret not doing it sooner



I've been driving around for free for 5 years now, LOL. I got so used to it by now, looking at someone's $13 dollar charging bill makes me shudder. I have free DC fast charging down the corner, and if that's busy, another one 5 blocks down.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> I've been driving around for free for 5 years now, LOL. I got so used to it by now, looking at someone's $13 dollar charging bill makes me shudder. I have free DC fast charging down the corner, and if that's busy, another one 5 blocks down.




Well, I look at the $13 as 550-600 miles - with this level of performance, "refueled" while the car is sitting in the garage - and I can't stop grinning 

But free DCFC is pretty sweet, is that something that was bundled with the i3?  Or a free public location?


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> Well, I look at the $13 as 550-600 miles - with this level of performance, "refueled" while the car is sitting in the garage - and I can't stop grinning
> 
> But free DCFC is pretty sweet, is that something that was bundled with the i3?  Or a free public location?



Public. It’s ridiculously underutilized.You can get level 2 at the hospital too, All you need to do is get in earlier  than the surgeons. 430am would probably consistently get you a spot. 

Not that any of this matters. We are far away from saving actual money on these cars The next 10 years.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> Not that any of this matters. We are far away from saving actual money on these cars The next 10 years.




I'm not sure who the "we" is  (maybe it's a royal we ), but since our TM3 is the same price/monthly as the previous car,  [slightly] lower insurance, and is currently costing notably less in consumables, I'm definitely spending less money on this vehicle. Whether you do or not really depends on your driving habits, charging costs/availability,  your typical car price point and how long you keep a car vs. long term costs.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> Public. It’s ridiculously underutilized.You can get level 2 at the hospital too, All you need to do is get in earlier  than the surgeons. 430am would probably consistently get you a spot.
> 
> Not that any of this matters. We are far away from saving actual money on these cars The next 10 years.



It would be nice if they were still selling ones like my Golf for $25K... they were leasing them for $199 a month around here in 2016-17. Everybody is going for the top end of the market right now. The mini cooper EV is the cheapest one I think right now, around $30K


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> It would be nice if they were still selling ones like my Golf for $25K... they were leasing them for $199 a month around here in 2016-17. Everybody is going for the top end of the market right now. The mini cooper EV is the cheapest one I think right now, around $30K




Absolutely, manufacturers have got to get more EVs across a wider range of prices (and styles for that matter).   I'm less impressed with a car like the new Lucid than I would be vs. a $25K, nicely optioned EV with a 220-230 mile rating.

I think a lot of this will come in the next 2 years with new battery developments, and as large manufacturers start reaching better economies-of-scale.


----------



## SuperMatt

DT said:


> Absolutely, manufacturers have got to get more EVs across a wider range of prices (and styles for that matter).   I'm less impressed with a car like the new Lucid than I would be vs. a $25K, nicely optioned EV with a 220-230 mile rating.
> 
> I think a lot of this will come in the next 2 years with new battery developments, and as large manufacturers start reaching better economies-of-scale.



I think the increased range increases the price. The Leaf used to be cheaper, then they increased the range 50 miles and the price went up to match. Perhaps batteries are the biggest expense?


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> I think the increased range increases the price. The Leaf used to be cheaper, then they increased the range 50 miles and the price went up to match. Perhaps batteries are the biggest expense?




It does, and it's non-trivial, that's why cheaper and better battery tech is pretty critical.  Like the new F-150 EV, the extended range is an additional $10K-20K depending on which model you start with, the Rivia R1T, same thing, $10K for the 300 to 400+ mile upgrade.

So batteries need to get cheaper, and better, since more batteries mean more cost, more space/weight, etc.  You also want to be able to have smaller cars with good range, and that's limited by the power density in batteries, like a car like a GTI or Focus ST can't have a 150kW battery, there's nowhere to put it (and of course the cost would be insane).

To a certain degree, the range, i.e., battery size/cost/weight is offset by charging infrastructure, so both of things needs to improve, you need less range if you have more places to charge, but there's some point in the middle of chargers on one side / range on the other, where it's a good balance of both, that then has to also be affordable.


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> I'm not sure who the "we" is  (maybe it's a royal we ), but since our TM3 is the same price/monthly as the previous car,  [slightly] lower insurance, and is currently costing notably less in consumables, I'm definitely spending less money on this vehicle. Whether you do or not really depends on your driving habits, charging costs/availability,  your typical car price point and how long you keep a car vs. long term costs.



Same here, I had a higher payment on my BMW 5 series than I do for the Tesla so I'm saving money on both fronts. Though I do get it if one doesn't have a garage, I might question it too because that makes all the difference here. Come home, plug in and forget it is a huge part of the appeal. If I had to park on the street and drive to chargers I would probably think twice about owning one, sure it's still cheaper but it comes with the cost of your time.


----------



## SuperMatt

DT said:


> It does, and it's non-trivial, that's why cheaper and better battery tech is pretty critical.  Like the new F-150 EV, the extended range is an additional $10K-20K depending on which model you start with, the Rivia R1T, same thing, $10K for the 300 to 400+ mile upgrade.
> 
> So batteries need to get cheaper, and better, since more batteries mean more cost, more space/weight, etc.  You also want to be able to have smaller cars with good range, and that's limited by the power density in batteries, like a car like a GTI or Focus ST can't have a 150kW battery, there's nowhere to put it (and of course the cost would be insane).
> 
> To a certain degree, the range, i.e., battery size/cost/weight is offset by charging infrastructure, so both of things needs to improve, you need less range if you have more places to charge, but there's some point in the middle of chargers on one side / range on the other, where it's a good balance of both, that then has to also be affordable.



I looked at the solar car linked by @P_X - making EVs lighter and more aerodynamic means you don’t need a huge battery. I mentioned this to somebody yesterday and they said “what if somebody hits your car? It doesn’t seem very safe."

There are a lot of big, heavy vehicles on the road, so perhaps they had a point. But I like the idea of making cars lighter and more efficient.


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> I looked at the solar car linked by @P_X - making EVs lighter and more aerodynamic means you don’t need a huge battery. I mentioned this to somebody yesterday and they said “what if somebody hits your car? It doesn’t seem very safe."
> 
> There are a lot of big, heavy vehicles on the road, so perhaps they had a point. But I like the idea of making cars lighter and more efficient.




Yeah, there's a lot of opportunities for efficiency improvements:


Batteries - an obvious one,  but there's a lot of subitems in this, power density, size, weight, cooling requirements, charging speed

Aerodynamics - lots of options here and it doesn't mean we all have to drive bubbles  (per a previous comment, this is the reason Tesla, Lucid, etc., use flush mount door handles), wheels factor in a good bit here too

Tires - rolling resistance is a big factor, and for the owner experience noise, that's why there's a ton of new tire (and wheel) development

Size - yeah, smaller cars!  This is very dependent on battery and range and charging infrastructure, and where there majority mindset finally settles on "reasonable range" for a given usage model


----------



## SuperMatt

There is a fairly lengthy article in The Washington Post today about Tesla’s FSD.



			https://wapo.st/3Jilhz3
		

(paywall removed)


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> There is a fairly lengthy article in The Washington Post today about Tesla’s FSD.
> 
> 
> 
> https://wapo.st/3Jilhz3
> 
> 
> (paywall removed)



First of all, thanks for the link without the paywall. This was a pretty fair piece when you watch the video, they stuck to the facts and pointed out both the good and bad and I have to say for the most part I agreed fully with them. Some use it all the time and work around the glitches while it frustrates others, the bottom line is the technology still has a ways to go but it's slowly getting there.

One of the quotes that really stood out to me was something like "it felt more like I was babysitting the car than the other way around", this was my experience too. It's almost flawless on the freeway though so I have to give them that but in the end the only real difference from AutoPilot is automatic lane changing and that is certainly not worth $200 per month or $12K per year IMO.


----------



## DT

citypix said:


> Regarding EV's in general, anybody concerned about breaking down in areas far from home where repairs (whatever that might be) are not available. Get a long distance tow back home and deal with it later?  Any issues with towing EVs (flatbed, etc)?




I don't think of it much different vs. an ICE vehicle.  If it breaks down completely, it's probably a tow, a service center - Tesla has some kind of road side assistance, right through the car or app, I'd imagine that sort of service model will be become more common since all the new manufacturers like Lucid, Rivian, won't have extensive physical dealer networks.

Then it gets fixed like anything else, er, hopefully 

EVs tow like any other car, there's specific lift, hook locations, there's a neutral / tow mode (so it'll roll).  There was a post recently about a Mach-E that got expensive damage, tow truck guy hooked into a battery reinforcement brace, but that's just a bad job on the tow company (and they're paying for it).


----------



## SuperMatt

citypix said:


> I'm new to EVs and might be considering an Ioniq 5 in the future. Pretty sure I'll be OK regarding range anxiety living in the SF Bay Area, and taking an occasional long trip.
> 
> Regarding EV's in general, anybody concerned about breaking down in areas far from home where repairs (whatever that might be) are not available. Get a long distance tow back home and deal with it later?  Any issues with towing EVs (flatbed, etc)?
> 
> Thanks for any insight!



Mine came with 7 years or 70K miles roadside assistance included... I think this was meant to reassure people with range anxiety.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> Mine came with 7 years or 70K miles roadside assistance included... I think this was meant to reassure people with range anxiety.



I liken it to running out of gas, if one is taking a long drive through a barren part of the country with no plan then that's on them. Outside of that there are charging stations everywhere, at worst it'll cost you extra time at a slower charger but even then you can use it for a boost to get to a supercharger.


----------



## DT

@Tesla_Peoplez ...










						2022.4.5 Official Tesla Release Notes - Software Updates
					

Tesla software update 2022.4.5 includes Car Colorizer, Audio Sources, Icons in Status Bar, Save Dashcam Clips, Regenerative Braking in Autopilot, Sonic the Hedgehog, Windshield Wiper Defrost, Tire Pressure API, Nearby Superchargers, TeslaMic and KTV, Traffic Along Route, NetEase Cloud Music...




					www.notateslaapp.com


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> @Tesla_Peoplez ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2022.4.5 Official Tesla Release Notes - Software Updates
> 
> 
> Tesla software update 2022.4.5 includes Car Colorizer, Audio Sources, Icons in Status Bar, Save Dashcam Clips, Regenerative Braking in Autopilot, Sonic the Hedgehog, Windshield Wiper Defrost, Tire Pressure API, Nearby Superchargers, TeslaMic and KTV, Traffic Along Route, NetEase Cloud Music...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.notateslaapp.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 11658




Nooooo!

No longer update buddies….  

Unless the app is not showing the update… Has happened before.

EDIT: Yep.... Had to go to the car to have the update pop up. Downloading now.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Nooooo!
> 
> No longer update buddies….
> 
> Unless the app is not showing the update… Has happened before.
> 
> EDIT: Yep.... Had to go to the car to have the update pop up. Downloading now.




Yeah, I initialized this one from the car, haven't done that for the past few.  I wasn't really even thinking about it, I was backing it in, listening to Spoonman, and checked 

(It shows on various connected services once it started /  including starting the actual update).


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> I'm not sure who the "we" is  (maybe it's a royal we ), but since our TM3 is the same price/monthly as the previous car,  [slightly] lower insurance, and is currently costing notably less in consumables, I'm definitely spending less money on this vehicle. Whether you do or not really depends on your driving habits, charging costs/availability,  your typical car price point and how long you keep a car vs. long term costs.



No here I consider this a fairly  objective assessment. What you’re referring to is not actual money saved, it’s just redistribution of luxury funds. Couple of days ago I checked out how much Mercedes I can get for the price of any of these cars, and My impression was that a lot Of Mercedes. Not that it’s my type of car. My father’s fully spec’d E-series has a painfully stiff suspension for my taste.

My frame of reference for saving is a 2003 Honda Civic hybrid, which I bought for 1200 bucks from a colleague. Took you from point a to B and my wife squeezed out 60 mpg’s from it consistently. These long range EVs are in the luxury price range, and while I share the values of emission reduction, I think it's important to point out that these cars still exceed the median income of Americans.


----------



## DT

Not the case at all:  I have a fixed car allocation, I have for ~20 years, and it's been very consistent, other than the consumables.

You're talking about a totally different market segment comparisons.  Payment, insurance the same, fuel costs, significantly cheaper due to being an EV.  You have to keep in mind, my vehicle is also my hobbie, what I enjoy, my "fun" thing, I will stay consistent in the price segment, so my variation is in the costs for operation.


----------



## cloudflare420

DT said:


> I'm not sure who the "we" is  (maybe it's a royal we ), but since our TM3 is the same price/monthly as the previous car,  [slightly] lower insurance, and is currently costing notably less in consumables, I'm definitely spending less money on this vehicle. Whether you do or not really depends on your driving habits, charging costs/availability,  your typical car price point and how long you keep a car vs. long term costs.



Yeah, I was just looking at my stats and only paid $11.67 for charging last month. Drove 700+ miles. There are savings to be had.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> Not the case at all:  I have a fixed car allocation, I have for ~20 years, and it's been very consistent, other than the consumables.
> 
> You're talking about a totally different market segment comparisons.  Payment, insurance the same, fuel costs, significantly cheaper due to being an EV.  You have to keep in mind, my vehicle is also my hobbie, what I enjoy, my "fun" thing, I will stay consistent in the price segment, so my variation is in the costs for operation.



I.e. your goal isn't saving. That was my original point. None of us bought an EV to save money. Considering how fast these cars go obsolete (and this is where Teslas excel), the devaluation of EVs will not offset the fuel savings.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> I.e. your goal isn't saving. That was my original point. None of us bought an EV to save money.




I really like the reduction in consumables cost, you have to keep in mind I've driven performance vehicles that got 15-18MPG that required 93 octane gas, so I'd consider it one perk of several, that factored into my overall decision to go with an EV.  Was it my primary motivator?  Maybe not, but I wouldn't completely dismiss it as a non-contributor.

I get that cost reduction can be through other means, but my point is given two vehicles, with everything else equal, I'd choose the lower cost operation - that an EV has several advantages is all the better, and you can't really isolate __just__ the operation cost reduction, because that's bundled up with convenience, no emissions, superior design elements (ex:  more interior space), etc.

i.e., if you said, here's car A, it has X performance, Y purchase cost, Z other-meta-attributes, and N operating costs, and car B has  X performance, Y purchase cost, Z other-meta-attributes but N * 0.25 cost, I'd choose the latter.  You suggested there's no money to be saved, but everything else equal, operation costs are lower.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Nooooo!
> 
> No longer update buddies….
> 
> Unless the app is not showing the update… Has happened before.
> 
> EDIT: Yep.... Had to go to the car to have the update pop up. Downloading now.




Finally took a look (hahaha, we left while it was still updating, used the 4xe ...)

OK, this is definitely a good improvement to V11, restoring the Profiles and Sentry to the top (while parked) works nicely, and the WiFi at the top when connected, also good.  Losing a quick touchscreen option for saving a dashcam video definitely needed an improvement, while you could add it to the quick access tray, is only opened it, now it's contextual, opens if stopped, saves if driving, that's pretty perfect.

I'm not seeing the wiper defrost, but I think that requires specific, new hardware (and it's not like I need it )

The updates to the Supercharger info on the nav is excellent, now it not only shows stalls/available, but power/charging capacity, and you can toggle non-SuCs now, so like L2 destination charging.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> I.e. your goal isn't saving. That was my original point. None of us bought an EV to save money. Considering how fast these cars go obsolete (and this is where Teslas excel), the devaluation of EVs will not offset the fuel savings.



I did buy it to save money. My old car was falling apart, and I needed a new one. With the federal tax credit, local tax exemption, low maintenance, and non-existent fuel cost, I figured out I would save a lot, and I have.


----------



## DT

I was thinking about this over the last couple of [cold] months,  it's a huge perk for for an EV that gets parked in a garage.  In fact, I'd say there are probably quite a few things that potential buyers might not factor in, kind of "side perks" of an EV.

You can run it in a closed garage, i.e., run the heat (or AC for that matter).  I even do this with our PHEV (since it idles on battery only), like I did this morning.  We hop in the Jeep for school drop off, the interior temp is nice, the seats are warm - and best of all, nobody dies from CO poisoning


----------



## Eric

I am still working out some of the differences with FSD, one of them is "Navigate on Autopilot", of course if you already have FSD its doing the lane changing for you so the only real difference I can see here is that it will navigate onramps and offramps, is that right? 

Their wording makes it seem like something more than this and frankly unless you read up on all of it the whole thing is twisted and confusing. It would be one thing if the technology came with the car but they want $12K for it now and IMO that's laughable for what you get. 

BTW I can still love the car, which I do, and question this piece of it. They lack clear explanations of differences, nobody would get in the car and say "oh yeah, that's obvious" to any of this stuff and it's a machine you'll be cruising down the road in at freeway speeds as you scratch your head and fuck with buttons.


----------



## Herdfan

P_X said:


> I've been driving around for free for 5 years now, LOL. I got so used to it by now, looking at someone's $13 dollar charging bill makes me shudder. I have free DC fast charging down the corner, and if that's busy, another one 5 blocks down.




I know Tesla pays for some charging stations for their cars, but who is paying for all these free charger stations.

My neighbor who has a Tesla works for the state and can charge for free in the garage and other companies do the same, but who is paying for free public chargers?  And how long will they be free?


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> I know Tesla pays for some charging stations for their cars, but who is paying for all these free charger stations.
> 
> My neighbor who has a Tesla works for the state and can charge for free in the garage and other companies do the same, but who is paying for free public chargers?  And how long will they be free?



As far as I recall it's a state initiative. There are bunch of places where the parking lot has a solar panels that provide shade and supply chargers too. You could actually recognize progressive states by these initiatives. The state is full of EVs but I live in the city where street parking dominates, which is unsuitable for shorter range EVs; hence the lack of competition for free fast chargers. 



DT said:


> I really like the reduction in consumables cost, you have to keep in mind I've driven performance vehicles that got 15-18MPG that required 93 octane gas, so I'd consider it one perk of several, that factored into my overall decision to go with an EV.  Was it my primary motivator?  Maybe not, but I wouldn't completely dismiss it as a non-contributor.
> 
> I get that cost reduction can be through other means, but my point is given two vehicles, with everything else equal, I'd choose the lower cost operation - that an EV has several advantages is all the better, and you can't really isolate __just__ the operation cost reduction, because that's bundled up with convenience, no emissions, superior design elements (ex:  more interior space), etc.
> 
> i.e., if you said, here's car A, it has X performance, Y purchase cost, Z other-meta-attributes, and N operating costs, and car B has  X performance, Y purchase cost, Z other-meta-attributes but N * 0.25 cost, I'd choose the latter.  You suggested there's no money to be saved, but everything else equal, operation costs are lower.





SuperMatt said:


> I did buy it to save money. My old car was falling apart, and I needed a new one. With the federal tax credit, local tax exemption, low maintenance, and non-existent fuel cost, I figured out I would save a lot, and I have.



Alright, alright, I concede! @DT, extrapolating your present milage and assuming a real gas guzzler as the alternative, you save ~$8K on gas in 5 years. With my milage and comparing it to my old Prius or Civic Hybrid, it would be no more than ~$2-3K saving in 5 years. @SuperMatt considering the ~$5K annual depreciation of my car, a low-maintenance Prius is a much better investment. Yet again, my frame of reference is not driving at all and walking/biking whenever possible because the only real zero emission transport and works just fine in European cities. I like public transport too, because I can get a lot of work done on a bus. But >$2 for a bus/metro ride means public transport in the cities I've lived in is more expensive than the maintenance of an EV.


----------



## Eric

So I've enrolled into FSD and gave it a try for the first time today. I drove down several well known streets with a variety of stop lights and stop signs, with two different roundabouts.

*Stop lights:*
It slowed or stopped at every single green light I came across, maybe a dozen or so, to the point it was unusable and I had to shut if off because people kept honking at me.

*Stop signs:*
Stopped but would not take off without intervention, this happened with every one so I assume it must be a default.

*Lane changing:*
It did not get a single lane change right, it would say "take this lane" and then when it wouldn't move into it automatically, it fought me when I tried to do it manually. When I left it alone and it missed the turning lane it just kept going and attempted to backtrack to get back on its navigation path.

*Roundabouts:*
In both cases it stopped in the middle of the roundabout by hard breaking and screaming alarms at me.

Safety Score after my first trip is now 73, I assume this is not good since they say you need 99? I literally did none of the hard breaking or aggressive turning on my own, the car did that all itself trying to navigate itself through the roundabouts and missed lane changes and forcing me to bust out of it.



Overall, with the exception of the assumed behavior at stop sights, this thing failed 100% of the time.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> So I've enrolled into FSD and gave it a try for the first time today. I drove down several well known streets with a variety of stop lights and stop signs, with two different roundabouts.
> 
> *Stop lights:*
> It slowed or stopped at every single green light I came across, maybe a dozen or so, to the point it was unusable and I had to shut if off because people kept honking at me.
> 
> *Stop signs:*
> Stopped but would not take off without intervention, this happened with every one so I assume it must be a default.
> 
> *Lane changing:*
> It did not get a single lane change right, it would say "take this lane" and then when it wouldn't move into it automatically, it fought me when I tried to do it manually. When I left it alone and it missed the turning lane it just kept going and attempted to backtrack to get back on its navigation path.
> 
> *Roundabouts:*
> In both cases it stopped in the middle of the roundabout by hard breaking and screaming alarms at me.
> 
> Safety Score after my first trip is now 73, I assume this is not good since they say you need 99? I literally did none of the hard breaking or aggressive turning on my own, the car did that all itself trying to navigate itself through the roundabouts and missed lane changes and forcing me to bust out of it.
> 
> View attachment 11691
> 
> Overall, with the exception of the assumed behavior at stop sights, this thing failed 100% of the time.



Holy shit


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> Alright, alright, I concede! @DT, extrapolating your present milage and assuming a real gas guzzler as the alternative, you save ~$8K on gas in 5 years.




But I also realize that I may be a bit of an outlier.  At one point I had a 55 gallon drum of VP C16 gas ($10/g) in my shed


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Safety Score after my first trip is now 73 [...]




I wonder a how a track mode, full rear bias 60MPH sideways drift affects the safety score ...


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> I wonder a how a track mode, full rear bias 60MPH sideways drift affects the safety score ...



Seriously man, WTF with that score? I never did hard breaking or hard steering myself, the care did it all on its own. Then it fucking penalized me for it? Sorry but FSD is terrible and no way ready for even beta prime time.

I haven't read up on the rules but I'm guessing at some point it will disable itself over this score, had I paid $10K for it I would be suing their asses for a refund over this piece of shit addition.


----------



## quagmire

Remember the “production” version of FSD is still meant for mostly highways. It won’t turn or proceed at stop signs, etc. It’s largely useless for city streets even though it has some features like traffic light recognition. 

Hence the issue with naming. It’s got some useful functions I would like, but nothing that justifies the price nor what I would describe as “FSD”. 

But the issues you experienced on the highway is of course still valid, though admittedly I’m not familiar with how it is supposed to work besides I know it is able to change lanes on autopilot and take off ramps.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> Remember the “production” version of FSD is still meant for mostly highways. It won’t turn or proceed at stop signs, etc. It’s largely useless for city streets even though it has some features like traffic light recognition.
> 
> Hence the issue with naming. It’s got some useful functions I would like, but nothing that justifies the price nor what I would describe as “FSD”.
> 
> But the issues you experienced on the highway is of course still valid, though admittedly I’m not familiar with how it is supposed to work besides I know it is able to change lanes on autopilot and take off ramps.



From what I can see the only real "production" benefit here is the ability to use blinkers while active cruise control is engaged. Hardly worth an additional $12K (now).


----------



## quagmire

Eric said:


> From what I can see the only real "production" benefit here is the ability to use blinkers while active cruise control is engaged. Hardly worth an additional $12K (now).




That and dumb/basic summon would be nice to have to be able to get the car out of tight spots. But you’re right not worth the $12K.


----------



## SuperMatt

We have a new entrant into the EV market:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1492922696094519296/


----------



## Apple fanboy

Been researching a BMW i3 or i3s for a few days. I’m looking for something smaller that hopefully Mrs AFB will drive as well as me. Then we can cut down to one car. For the occasions I need a longer drive, I could hire something if range becomes an issue.


----------



## User.45

Apple fanboy said:


> Been researching a BMW i3 or i3s for a few days. I’m looking for something smaller that hopefully Mrs AFB will drive as well as me. Then we can cut down to one car. For the occasions I need a longer drive, I could hire something if range becomes an issue.



i3 owner for 5 years now. Hit me up if you have questions. 
My comments:
1. It's a great city car. If you never need to seat more than 4 people it's even greater.
2. If you get the range extender version it can reasonably do medium trips, but ALL of my issues with the car were related to the range extender. The engine mount broke after I hit a pothole in -10F degree weather and it broke the car after a year. I got it all fixed ($16K worth, lol) in 2018 on warranty and having zero issue since. 
3. BMW just stopped selling these new.
4. I still think it's a decent bargain in the USA to get one for like $15K, but probably wouldn't want a REx version without warranty... 
5. Otherwise, I'd recommend just getting a Leaf 2. Longer range, nice tech, more space, etc.


----------



## SuperMatt

Apple fanboy said:


> Been researching a BMW i3 or i3s for a few days. I’m looking for something smaller that hopefully Mrs AFB will drive as well as me. Then we can cut down to one car. For the occasions I need a longer drive, I could hire something if range becomes an issue.



Have you checked out the Mini Cooper EV? Wondering how it is as a commuting/shorter range EV.


----------



## Apple fanboy

P_X said:


> i3 owner for 5 years now. Hit me up if you have questions.
> My comments:
> 1. It's a great city car. If you never need to seat more than 4 people it's even greater.
> 2. If you get the range extender version it can reasonably do medium trips, but ALL of my issues with the car were related to the range extender. The engine mount broke after I hit a pothole in -10F degree weather and it broke the car after a year. I got it all fixed ($16K worth, lol) in 2018 on warranty and having zero issue since.
> 3. BMW just stopped selling these new.
> 4. I still think it's a decent bargain in the USA to get one for like $15K, but probably wouldn't want a REx version without warranty...
> 5. Otherwise, I'd recommend just getting a Leaf 2. Longer range, nice tech, more space, etc.



Thanks. I’d go for a nearly new rather than new. Would you go for the bigger battery (120kw) without the REX? I’ve read that most of peoples issues are with the REX (that you also have to carry everywhere). 
95% of my trips are with one person. 0% are with more than two.


----------



## Apple fanboy

SuperMatt said:


> Have you checked out the Mini Cooper EV? Wondering how it is as a commuting/shorter range EV.



Not looked into it, but probably should. I’m planning on driving a few different types before I commit.


----------



## User.45

Apple fanboy said:


> Thanks. I’d go for a nearly new rather than new. Would you go for the bigger battery (120kw) without the REX? I’ve read that most of peoples issues are with the REX (that you also have to carry everywhere).
> 95% of my trips are with one person. 0% are with more than two.



I would not pay more than $20K for the I3 in 2022. Period. 
That said, if you can charge at home then the range will unlikely to be an issue.
You might wanna check it with your wife though. 
My wife is a hypermiler and got nervous about the speed of the car for the first few years. So there's a chance she won't like it. 

If you get one, get one with CarPlay/Android auto and the Harman Kardon speakers. During COVID I used to use the car as my office when I couldn't take my kids anymore.


----------



## Apple fanboy

P_X said:


> I would not pay more than $20K for the I3 in 2022. Period.
> That said, if you can charge at home then the range will unlikely to be an issue.
> You might wanna check it with your wife though.
> My wife is a hypermiler and got nervous about the speed of the car for the first few years. So there's a chance she won't like it.
> 
> If you get one, get one with CarPlay/Android auto and the Harman Kardon speakers. During COVID I used to use the car as my office when I couldn't take my kids anymore.



I’ll get a home charger. I also have free charging at the office, which has probably helped me to start researching. Petrol prices are insane here. 
Mrs AFB is not a confident driver. She only drives to the shops a couple of times a week (8 mile round trip). I think I’d have to get her used to the idea gradually. But her car is a 2011 Kia and costing us money each year for insurance and servicing etc. my worry is it will start costing us more as it ages.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> *Stop signs:*
> Stopped but would not take off without intervention, this happened with every one so I assume it must be a default.




Have to think that would be hard to automate.  Even humans don't know who's turn is next sometimes.  But even if the car knew, there is no guarantee a human in another vehicle would do what they are supposed to.


----------



## User.45

Apple fanboy said:


> I’ll get a home charger. I also have free charging at the office, which has probably helped me to start researching. Petrol prices are insane here.
> Mrs AFB is not a confident driver. She only drives to the shops a couple of times a week (8 mile round trip). I think I’d have to get her used to the idea gradually. But her car is a 2011 Kia and costing us money each year for insurance and servicing etc. my worry is it will start costing us more as it ages.



Well, this car is extremely fast after a Kia... In fact I used to beat muscle cars 0-30MPH. Once a dodge charger cut me off after I beat it between lights. It was totally hilarious, but it was in the rough side of Chicago, so it probably could have escalated quickly.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Have to think that would be hard to automate.  Even humans don't know who's turn is next sometimes.  But even if the car knew, there is no guarantee a human in another vehicle would do what they are supposed to.



So It turns out I STILL didn't have it enabled after all, this time I thought it was. The language around it is so vague that it's hard to tell, I even brought it up over at TMC forums and there are several other experienced owners who have a hard time explaining/understanding the confusing wording and menus they have.

The car said I was "enrolled" with it being in a queue and had several of the features turned on via switches, even now that I know it's still hard to tell. But the bottom line is the car is still not enrolled and I was driving around like a total idiot in city streets trying to use features that were not turned on (even though it said they were). FML.


----------



## Herdfan

Didn't know if anyone saw this:









						The DeLorean is coming back as a futuristic Texas-made electric sports car
					

The new version of DeLorean has announced plans to introduce an electric luxury sports car this year. The Texas-based automaker released a teaser commercial that shows the outline of the gullwing-door car.




					www.foxnews.com
				




A fraternity brother in college had one.  I swear it was like being a rock star because everywhere you went, people stared.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> A fraternity brother in college had one.  I swear it was like being a rock star because everywhere you went, people stared.




Was his name Emmett?






SuperMatt said:


> We have a new entrant into the EV market:
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1492922696094519296/






This is a great way to capitalize on the DeLorean name and brand equity (if any ...), and in the EV space, a small company / startup is pretty viable.

For not in the know, in 1995 the DeLorean name, remaining stock, and logo/branding was purchased by a guy named Stephen Wynne:





__





						DeLorean Motor Company (Texas) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## DT

Fisker PEAR (I know, *snicker*) reservations opening up.


“Our customers want to take a step into the future with us.” – Henrik Fisker

Our designers imagine how we will move through cities in the future, and we’ve created a category-breaking urban lifestyle vehicle.

The Fisker PEAR is an Agile Urban EV: the future of clean and affordable individual mobility for cities.

Conceived as a mobility device rather than a conventional car, the Fisker PEAR is an electric vehicle for global citizens and young urban innovators. Its futuristic and minimalist concept blends sustainability, technology, and design, while defying classification into any existing market segment. Intelligent and digitally connected, the Fisker PEAR EV’s future-forward features deliver intuitive control and sporty driving.

The Fisker PEAR breaks design conventions. We weave in the very latest updatable tech and wrap it in a compact mobility device approximately 4500mm long that still has clever storage, room for five, and many industry-first features. Affordable, agile, and styled for city living, the Fisker PEAR launches the Personal Electric Automotive Revolution.

We expect to begin the first deliveries of the Fisker PEAR in 2024. The starting price will be $29,900**, before any incentives. As with any product under development, we’ll release additional details and specs closer to deliveries.









						Reserve a Fisker | Fisker Inc.
					

Reserving your Fisker is easy - reserve today for just $250 USD.



					www.fiskerinc.com
				





Again, that's $29,900**, before any incentives

Super interesting!


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> Fisker PEAR (I know, *snicker*) reservations opening up.




It's not the "Pear" is that it is one letter off a brand of Scissors: Fiskars.

So every time I see the name, I am going to think of Scissors.


----------



## DT

Oh, hahaha, PEAR is an acronym, it kind of felt like that, but I hadn't seen it explained, here's some good info (that's of course, still a bit vague) from Car & Driver:




> The Pear—the name stands for Personal Electric Automotive Revolution—will be a compact, five-passenger crossover slotting below the Ocean in Fisker’s lineup. Fisker is promising "intuitive controls, sporty driving, clever storage, and a focus on industry firsts."
> 
> Fisker Announces Three More EVs by 2025
> 
> While the Ocean will be built by Magna Steyr in Austria, Fisker is partnering with Taiwanese electronics manufacturer Foxconn for production of the Pear. Fisker says that Foxconn will build the Pear in Ohio, so it seems likely that Pear production will occur at the Lordstown Assembly plant which Foxconn purchased last fall. Foxconn is also set to built the electric Lordstown Endurance pickup truck at the Ohio factory, although Fisker would not confirm that the Pear will be constructed in the same facility.
> 
> Fisker says deliveries of the Pear will begin in 2024, with a minimum initial production of 250,000 units per year. Fisker is now accepting reservations for the Pear, and interested customers need to plunk down $250 for the first reservation and $100 for a second reservation at a later date.




Foxconn?  Great, now you can get an iPhone and a car built by the same factory ...


----------



## quagmire

@DT Time to guess when we get a software update to enable the full potential of the matrix headlights.......









						Adaptive LED Headlights Finally Get NHTSA Approval In The US
					

A decades-old technicality kept advanced adaptive headlights from being offered in the US, but that's now over after the NHTSA approved use.




					www.motor1.com


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> Fisker PEAR (I know, *snicker*) reservations opening up.
> 
> 
> “Our customers want to take a step into the future with us.” – Henrik Fisker
> 
> Our designers imagine how we will move through cities in the future, and we’ve created a category-breaking urban lifestyle vehicle.
> 
> The Fisker PEAR is an Agile Urban EV: the future of clean and affordable individual mobility for cities.
> 
> Conceived as a mobility device rather than a conventional car, the Fisker PEAR is an electric vehicle for global citizens and young urban innovators. Its futuristic and minimalist concept blends sustainability, technology, and design, while defying classification into any existing market segment. Intelligent and digitally connected, the Fisker PEAR EV’s future-forward features deliver intuitive control and sporty driving.
> 
> The Fisker PEAR breaks design conventions. We weave in the very latest updatable tech and wrap it in a compact mobility device approximately 4500mm long that still has clever storage, room for five, and many industry-first features. Affordable, agile, and styled for city living, the Fisker PEAR launches the Personal Electric Automotive Revolution.
> 
> We expect to begin the first deliveries of the Fisker PEAR in 2024. The starting price will be $29,900**, before any incentives. As with any product under development, we’ll release additional details and specs closer to deliveries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reserve a Fisker | Fisker Inc.
> 
> 
> Reserving your Fisker is easy - reserve today for just $250 USD.
> 
> 
> 
> www.fiskerinc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, that's $29,900**, before any incentives
> 
> Super interesting!



expected 2024.... I'm curious about the longevity of this this scheme of whoring for preorders for something that will arrive probably semi obsolete into a crazy competitive market.


----------



## User.45

Looks good on paper but then it's either gonna be the range, or the price that will be way underwhelming. Especially with a recent bankruptcy under its belt, I'm twice as skeptical about Fiskers.








						Fisker Files for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy | Edmunds
					

Fisker Automotive, the maker of the Fisker Karma hybrid-electric luxury car, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on Friday.



					www.edmunds.com


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> @DT Time to guess when we get a software update to enable the full potential of the matrix headlights.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adaptive LED Headlights Finally Get NHTSA Approval In The US
> 
> 
> A decades-old technicality kept advanced adaptive headlights from being offered in the US, but that's now over after the NHTSA approved use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motor1.com



Will I not be included here or is it just for you guys who have FSD (with all the bells and whistles) enabled? I had this on my BMW and seeing where you're turning isn't just a great feature, it's also safer.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> Looks good on paper but then it's either gonna be the range, or the price that will be way underwhelming. Especially with a recent bankruptcy under its belt, I'm twice as skeptical about Fiskers.




Yeah, Fisker is a bit of  wildcard, even their previous exotics were always kind of viewed as interesting, even beautiful designs, but pretty mediocre in terms of actual automotive implementation.

That 3rd tier of the Ocean is a pretty attractive price point, there's a 4th tier with a much lower range, but the $49K model has nearly the range (the 10 mile difference must be the solar roof), and it's still very well optioned.


----------



## quagmire

Eric said:


> Will I not be included here or is it just for you guys who have FSD (with all the bells and whistles) enabled? I had this on my BMW and seeing where you're turning isn't just a great feature, it's also safer.




Yeah your Model 3 has the matrix headlights too.

This regulation allowing matrix headlights is more than just the lights turning in a turn. This would allow you to keep high beams on all the time, but the car would see oncoming cars and turn the lights down that are in the line of sight of the incoming car. No car in the US is capable of doing this because regulations made it illegal. They finally updated the regulations.






It's how in light show, the headlights are able to project Tesla.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> Yeah your Model 3 has the matrix headlights too.
> 
> This regulation allowing matrix headlights is more than just the lights turning in a turn. This would allow you to keep high beams on all the time, but the car would see oncoming cars and turn the lights down that are in the line of sight of the incoming car. No car in the US is capable of doing this because regulations made it illegal. They finally updated the regulations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's how in light show, the headlights are able to project Tesla.



Awesome, what a great use of technology.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> @DT Time to guess when we get a software update to enable the full potential of the matrix headlights.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adaptive LED Headlights Finally Get NHTSA Approval In The US
> 
> 
> A decades-old technicality kept advanced adaptive headlights from being offered in the US, but that's now over after the NHTSA approved use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motor1.com




Yeah, I'm excited about using the existing hardware for more of its potential.


----------



## DT

This is interesting too, and I bet we continue to see more of this sort of idea - during the Superbowl, FPL (Florida Power and Light, power/utilities company), ran an ad about their adoption of EV tech, deploying chargers, etc., but one service is for flat rate charging, specifically for off-peak, but like $20/month regardless of consumption.

There's a few assumptions since the details haven't been released, like are there actually maximums, and another being, you'd have to use their EVSE since that would have the required monitoring/metering, but if they don't offer a Tesla connector (and only a J1772) that clearly alienates a large group of EV owners who'd prefer not to use an adapter / would lose functionality.

(My hope for the latter is if this becomes a thing, they'll open it up to 3rd party chargers, either through smart services, or a specifically metered outlet or something)


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> Will I not be included here or is it just for you guys who have FSD (with all the bells and whistles) enabled? I had this on my BMW and seeing where you're turning isn't just a great feature, it's also safer.



Have that on my VW. Never thought it was a big deal until I moved into the country. Now it’s essential with no street lights!


----------



## DT

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1493993589503844352/


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1493993589503844352/



This isn't a store?


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> This isn't a store?




That's more like a roadside peanut stand ... 

They're talking about an open "app store" not unlike Apple, a place for 3rd party apps, opening up the API to developers outside of Tesla, etc.  Definitely watch the video, it's pretty amazing, that guy has done a ton of visualizations that are terrific, he needs to be hired (by Tesla).

A store like they describe is no small endeavour, but without CP or AA, relying on the OEM to extend features puts extra burden on them, if I were in charge of product development, I'd absolutely do it.


----------



## quagmire

I would love an app store. And I would be curious though if Tesla would tie in such a feature into the premium connectivity package. It would certainly increase the value of the $10/month subscription if Tesla doesn't raise it to $50 a month just cause......


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> That's more like a roadside peanut stand ...
> 
> They're talking about an open "app store" not unlike Apple, a place for 3rd party apps, opening up the API to developers outside of Tesla, etc.  Definitely watch the video, it's pretty amazing, that guy has done a ton of visualizations that are terrific, he needs to be hired (by Tesla).



Yes, very expensive peanuts.

I did watch the video and adding apps to a store doesn't seem like it would be a problem, the issue is what apps with they allow? Still can't even get Carplay or Sirus XM, as you mentioned, until they open themselves up it really seems pointless.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> I did watch the video and adding apps to a store doesn't seem like it would be a problem, the issue is what apps with they allow? Still can't even get Carplay or Sirus XM, as you mentioned, until they open themselves up it really seems pointless.




There's some pretty major effort involved an app store, from building out all the developer API / support docs / toolkits, evaluating how they're going to sandbox the system/functions, curation, etc.  It's quite a bit different vs. internal development.  If they even considered something like this, it would be more like CP, or even (Ford) Sync apps, where it's not open to just anyone, there's specific developer control / licensing.

I'd love a Tesla "native" app for:  ABRP, Plugshare, Dark Sky,  any podcast app (Overcast, whatever), Tessie or Teslascope


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## quagmire

The Tesla app 4.6 update has coding for an annual sub for FSD and Premium connectivity. 









						Tesla to start offering cheaper 'Annual Subscriptions' on Premium Connectivity and more
					

Tesla will soon offer annual subscriptions for their FSD and premium connectivity plans




					www.notateslaapp.com


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> The Tesla app 4.6 update has coding for an annual sub for FSD and Premium connectivity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla to start offering cheaper 'Annual Subscriptions' on Premium Connectivity and more
> 
> 
> Tesla will soon offer annual subscriptions for their FSD and premium connectivity plans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.notateslaapp.com



I see the value in connectivity and currently pay $10 a month for it, this would be a welcomed addition for me.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## DT

theSeb said:


> Please order your Rivian vehicles immediately and support the company. I am now a shareholder, so obviously plan to hype up the company at every opportunity.





The R1S could easily be on the short list for our next EV purchasing cycle, which is about 2 years out, hopefully by then we'll have a good sense of whether Rivian is viable in the consumer vehicle market, i.e.:

- The product will have proven itself (or not), no catastrophic issues, etc.
- An order can be fulfilled in a "reasonable" amount of time (If I'm the 50,001 order and they're making 10K a year ... no)
- They'll have sold enough to establish a decent service footprint / model
- The 400 mile (extended range) R1S will be available

Also as kind of a general EV consideration over the next 2 years:

At least in the US, we see substantial growth of the non-Tesla DCFC networks - this could be by way of new locations from EVGO, EA, etc., and even Tesla if their plan to open SuCs to other vehicles follows through.  For me, today, I don't know that I'd buy a BEV that doesn't have access to the Tesla SuC network (but I realize that's a whole separate discussion).


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## cloudflare420

2022.4.5 is really starting to piss me off. The car just randomly looses cellular connection and won’t reconnect back to AT&T unless I do a force reboot with the steering wheel buttons. Always seems to happen after I let the car sit overnight. 

Another annoying issue I’ve noticed is how the cameras have noticeable lag now. This wasn’t a problem back on v10 software.


----------



## SuperMatt

cloudflare420 said:


> 2022.4.5 is really starting to piss me off. The car just randomly looses cellular connection and won’t reconnect back to AT&T unless I do a force reboot with the steering wheel buttons. Always seems to happen after I let the car sit overnight.
> 
> Another annoying issue I’ve noticed is how the cameras have noticeable lag now. This wasn’t a problem back on v10 software.



Just wait until Tesla signs a deal with Starbucks. Your car will automatically drive to any nearby location whenever you go somewhere. It’s “just a software update”!


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> Just wait until Tesla signs a deal with Starbucks. Your car will automatically drive to any nearby location whenever you go somewhere. It’s “just a software update”!



I would subscribe and pay for that feature.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> There's some pretty major effort involved an app store, from building out all the developer API / support docs / toolkits, evaluating how they're going to sandbox the system/functions, curation, etc.  It's quite a bit different vs. internal development.  If they even considered something like this, it would be more like CP, or even (Ford) Sync apps, where it's not open to just anyone, there's specific developer control / licensing.
> 
> I'd love a Tesla "native" app for:  ABRP, Plugshare, Dark Sky,  any podcast app (Overcast, whatever), Tessie or Teslascope



And a better GPS app Jokes aside, it would be a good way for Tesla maintain its leadership position. The thing is, I was looking at the Ioniq 5 and it seems like it doesn't offer wireless CarPlay for example and it requires a 3rd party dongle to fix this. So you have this fresh off the designing table marvel whose infotainment software failed to meet the highest modern standards on day 1 of its release. Which, to me suggests, that Tesla might have fantastic contenders on the hardware side, but nothing on the horizon from the software perspective that could compete with them.


----------



## User.45

Dunno, I think Mach-E will take another iteration to really compete with Teslas. What I understand from the reviews is that charge rates and performance drops affect Mach-Es. Takes?








						Ford's Mustang Mach-E ousts the Tesla Model 3 as Consumer Reports' top EV | Engadget
					

Consumer Reports now says the Ford Mustang Mach-E is its top EV pick, besting the Tesla Model 3..




					www.engadget.com


----------



## Apple fanboy

So I enjoyed my test drive. It was a real pocket rocket. The i3 has an amazing pace. Loved the build quality and the futuristic cabin. It was a base model, but still felt like it had plenty of tech. The leather seats would be a must for me though as would a reversing camera. 
I like the I drive. A good selection of (programmable) physical buttons. My preference over a touch screen in a car. 

Tomorrow I’ll be excel number crunching. See what the best option is for me. Most likely BMW approved nearly new. But let’s see.


----------



## User.45

Apple fanboy said:


> So I enjoyed my test drive. It was a real pocket rocket. The i3 has an amazing pace. Loved the build quality and the futuristic cabin. It was a base model, but still felt like it had plenty of tech. The leather seats would be a must for me though as would a reversing camera.
> I like the I drive. A good selection of (programmable) physical buttons. My preference over a touch screen in a car.
> 
> Tomorrow I’ll be excel number crunching. See what the best option is for me. Most likely BMW approved nearly new. But let’s see.



Yeah the pre-programmable buttons are sweet. And you can almost put any shortcut on them.


----------



## Apple fanboy

P_X said:


> Yeah the pre-programmable buttons are sweet. And you can almost put any shortcut on them.



Exactly. Makes a lot of sense. 
Lots of the ideas I really like. 
Recyclable materials. 
Lightweight approach. 
The now bigger standard battery (never liked the idea of the REX). 
Although smaller than my golf, it feels larger inside. Handles really well on the B roads. 
The cramped back set doesn’t bother me. No one ever uses it.


----------



## User.45

Apple fanboy said:


> Exactly. Makes a lot of sense.
> Lots of the ideas I really like.
> Recyclable materials.
> Lightweight approach.
> The now bigger standard battery (never liked the idea of the REX).
> Although smaller than my golf, it feels larger inside. Handles really well on the B roads.
> The cramped back set doesn’t bother me. No one ever uses it.



I'm 6'3", I can fit in the back w/o issue. For the driver position, I fit in better than in the Model 3. 
It's a really good car. It's just not a $50-60K car. It's a ~$20-30K car depending on the version you get.


----------



## Apple fanboy

P_X said:


> I'm 6'3", I can fit in the back w/o issue. For the driver position, I fit in better than in the Model 3.
> It's a really good car. It's just not a $50-60K car. It's a ~$20-30K car depending on the version you get.



About £25k to £40k depending on options and age here.


----------



## User.45

Apple fanboy said:


> About £25k to £40k depending on options and age here.



I have the 2015 Terra trim, leather, navigation kit with Harman Kardon speakers. The speakers are really really surprisingly competent. The leather is a must in my situation.  Model 3 has superior proximity sensor system though. It tells you the distance from the nearest object, which I find much more helpful than beeping.


----------



## quagmire

P_X said:


> Dunno, I think Mach-E will take another iteration to really compete with Teslas. What I understand from the reviews is that charge rates and performance drops affect Mach-Es. Takes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ford's Mustang Mach-E ousts the Tesla Model 3 as Consumer Reports' top EV | Engadget
> 
> 
> Consumer Reports now says the Ford Mustang Mach-E is its top EV pick, besting the Tesla Model 3..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.engadget.com




At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, I think this is a result of the media finally has an EV that is decent from an manufacture that plays ball with the media. The media before Mach E, Ioniq 5, etc pretty much had no choice to throw awards at Tesla due to it being the only EV that was worth any consideration. But Tesla doesn't toss money at them or have a PR department and has always had an adversarial relationship with the media. So the moment the media can, they will sing more praises to the friendlier automakers.


----------



## User.45

quagmire said:


> At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, I think this is a result of the media finally has an EV that is decent from an manufacture that plays ball with the media. The media before Mach E, Ioniq 5, etc pretty much had no choice to throw awards at Tesla due to it being the only EV that was worth any consideration. But Tesla doesn't toss money at them or have a PR department and has always had an adversarial relationship with the media. So the moment the media can, they will sing more praises to the friendlier automakers.



Oh, I definitely cannot be accused with Tesla fanboyism, but I have the same impression. Mach-E is decent but not yet on par. Ioniq 5 on the other hand had better features than the TMY for a TME3 price tag. But it still has to live up to the hype.

Interesting (and of course subjective): teslas look better in wild than in media. The Ioniq5s I've seen in the wild did not make a huge impression on me for some reason. Though I suspect those were the base versions.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> The thing is, I was looking at the Ioniq 5 and it seems like it doesn't offer wireless CarPlay for example and it requires a 3rd party dongle to fix this. So you have this fresh off the designing table marvel whose infotainment software failed to meet the highest modern standards on day 1 of its release. Which, to me suggests, that Tesla might have fantastic contenders on the hardware side, but nothing on the horizon from the software perspective that could compete with them.




The lack of wireless CarPlay in new cars is confounding.  Either the implementation requires something that's a major issue and/or maybe there's some kind of licensing issue[?]




Apple fanboy said:


> Tomorrow I’ll be excel number crunching. See what the best option is for me. Most likely BMW approved nearly new. But let’s see.




Cool.  If going used, I'd =definitely= look into a CPO car, sounds like that's what you're shopping.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> The lack of wireless CarPlay in new cars is confounding.  Either the implementation requires something that's a major issue and/or maybe there's some kind of licensing issue[?]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool.  If going used, I'd =definitely= look into a CPO car, sounds like that's what you're shopping.



CPO?


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> CPO?




*C*ertified *P*re-*O*wned

Personally there's no way in hell I'd own a later model, "non-inexpensive" BMW, especially one with potentially high dollar service costs without a warranty.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> *C*ertified *P*re-*O*wned
> 
> Personally there's no way in hell I'd own a later model, "non-inexpensive" BMW, especially one with potentially high dollar service costs without a warranty.



Right. Yes it would be BMW approved warranty if I buy one.


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> *C*ertified *P*re-*O*wned
> 
> Personally there's no way in hell I'd own a later model, "non-inexpensive" BMW, especially one with potentially high dollar service costs without a warranty.




Nope.  I think Mercedes has the best CPO Warranty.  When we bought the daughter's GLA, it was 2 years old with 26K miles.  It was offered with the standard 1 additional year and unlimited mileage warranty which we upgraded to the +3 years, unlimited mileage warranty.  She she basically has a car with a 5 yr/unlimited mileage warranty.  That is a better warranty than buying new.


----------



## DT

Yeah, the CPO warranty being better is a funny thing, I had a Lexus that was basically new, but "pre-owned", their CPO program added 2 years to the base (so 6 total) and changed the mileage portion to unlimited, and I saved $5K vs. buying new.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Standard on the BMW is three years and 8 on the battery. I’d hope to get some of that on any purchase. For it to be honoured you have to get it serviced by them, so I guess that’s why they offer you more. They are tying you in to get it serviced with them.


----------



## cloudflare420

quagmire said:


> At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, I think this is a result of the media finally has an EV that is decent from an manufacture that plays ball with the media. The media before Mach E, Ioniq 5, etc pretty much had no choice to throw awards at Tesla due to it being the only EV that was worth any consideration. But Tesla doesn't toss money at them or have a PR department and has always had an adversarial relationship with the media. So the moment the media can, they will sing more praises to the friendlier automakers.



You are aware that CR doesn't take any advertising money right?

I don't understand why Tesla fanboys have such an huge issue acknowledging great EVs from other companies. They always have to cry bias or paid advertising.

Even your savior Elon Musk has said CR is "fair and accurate"

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1001954916569579520/


----------



## DT

cloudflare420 said:


> 2022.4.5 is really starting to piss me off. The car just randomly looses cellular connection and won’t reconnect back to AT&T unless I do a force reboot with the steering wheel buttons. Always seems to happen after I let the car sit overnight.
> 
> Another annoying issue I’ve noticed is how the cameras have noticeable lag now. This wasn’t a problem back on v10 software.




Hahaha, geez dude, if disliked a car that much I'd just avoid driving it.  Why not just give it back to your Dad, it's his car right?


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> The lack of wireless CarPlay in new cars is confounding.  Either the implementation requires something that's a major issue and/or maybe there's some kind of licensing issue[?]



Licensing issue makes the most sense. To me it sounds like something software can fix and not having a solution for it today suggests there isn't gonna be one in the future, which to me impresses of lackluster software development. Something that is the bane of my existence. Like my 2015 BMW never had a software update in the 5 years I've owned it.


----------



## Herdfan

Apple fanboy said:


> Standard on the BMW is three years and 8 on the battery. I’d hope to get some of that on any purchase. For it to be honoured you have to get it serviced by them, so I guess that’s why they offer you more. They are tying you in to get it serviced with them.




I do that anyway.  The dealers just do a better job.  Wife and I joke that there is a secret bolt somewhere that they tighten every time it is serviced because it just feels "tighter" after a factory service.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> Licensing issue makes the most sense. To me it sounds like something software can fix and not having a solution for it today suggests there isn't gonna be one in the future, which to me impresses of lackluster software development. Something that is the bane of my existence. Like my 2015 BMW never had a software update in the 5 years I've owned it.




Oh, and I meant to mention this in a previous post, I've seen quite a few folks, with various car models (i.e., different head unit tech, Sync, uConnect, etc.) and apparently none of the 3rd party wireless CP modules work very consistently.  Some report it never worked, many report inconsistent connection issues (like rando disconnect, notable delays on initial connection when entering the vehicle), so it's not even something that's easily resolved in the aftermarket.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> I do that anyway.  The dealers just do a better job.  Wife and I joke that there is a secret bolt somewhere that they tighten every time it is serviced because it just feels "tighter" after a factory service.



They inflate the tires to a higher pressure than the rec'd specs.


----------



## cloudflare420

DT said:


> Hahaha, geez dude, if disliked a car that much I'd just avoid driving it.




I don't think "dislike" is the correct word. There are just so many weird quirks that make no sense. The car on v10 was a better product. 

As I've said, EVs are amazing as a daily driver and the running costs are nearly zero, especially when you look at what it costs to fill up my Audi every month.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> Oh, and I meant to mention this in a previous post, I've seen quite a few folks, with various car models (i.e., different head unit tech, Sync, uConnect, etc.) and apparently none of the 3rd party wireless CP modules work very consistently.  Some report it never worked, many report inconsistent connection issues (like rando disconnect, notable delays on initial connection when entering the vehicle), so it's not even something that's easily resolved in the aftermarket.



Yup... My next car has to have CP because that's the only guarantee that my interface will improve over time. But if I can't get it wireless, the whole thing will not be seamless.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Herdfan said:


> I do that anyway.  The dealers just do a better job.  Wife and I joke that there is a secret bolt somewhere that they tighten every time it is serviced because it just feels "tighter" after a factory service.



Same, but you do pay for it. But I've tried alternatives with mixed results over the years.


----------



## cloudflare420

P_X said:


> The thing is, I was looking at the Ioniq 5 and it seems like it doesn't offer wireless CarPlay for example and it requires a 3rd party dongle to fix this.




I honestly don't think you're missing much by not having wireless CarPlay. It uses so much battery that you end up plugging the phone in anyways. 

What we really need to see is better CarPlay/Android Auto integration. I want to see Google Maps/Waze on the HUD or cluster. BMWs can do Apple Maps on the HUD (iDrive 7+), but who wants that?


----------



## Herdfan

Apple fanboy said:


> Same, but you do pay for it. But I've tried alternatives with mixed results over the years.




Done it both ways.  Used to do it on my diesel trucks, but you get a service basically every 10K miles.  So for the 100K plan, you get 9-10 services.  But sell it before the 100K, it is a PITA to get your couple hundred $ back.  So I just pay as I go.

Did do it on my daughter's GLA so she can go get it serviced when needed and I don't have to be involved.


----------



## User.45

cloudflare420 said:


> I honestly don't think you're missing much by not having wireless CarPlay. It uses so much battery that you end up plugging the phone in anyways.
> 
> What we really need to see is better CarPlay/Android Auto integration. I want to see Google Maps/Waze on the HUD or cluster. BMWs can do Apple Maps on the HUD (iDrive 7+), but who wants that?



Apple Maps came a very long way in the last 3 years. In my household, it ended up replacing google maps completely, so I'd be more than happy with it on my HUD.

I concede on the plugging in.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Herdfan said:


> Done it both ways.  Used to do it on my diesel trucks, but you get a service basically every 10K miles.  So for the 100K plan, you get 9-10 services.  But sell it before the 100K, it is a PITA to get your couple hundred $ back.  So I just pay as I go.
> 
> Did do it on my daughter's GLA so she can go get it serviced when needed and I don't have to be involved.



I always pay as I go.


----------



## quagmire

cloudflare420 said:


> You are aware that CR doesn't take any advertising money right?
> 
> I don't understand why Tesla fanboys have such an huge issue acknowledging great EVs from other companies. They always have to cry bias or paid advertising.
> 
> Even your savior Elon Musk has said CR is "fair and accurate"
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1001954916569579520/




Savior? Hardly..... 

Like I said in a political thread here..... Love his vision but by god he is a horrible human being. 

I am hardly a Tesla fanboy. Where did I trash the Mach E? I outright said it's a decent EV.

I am just more skeptical of the media. Even if CR doesn't take advertising money, I don't buy their views being 100% impartial. They all have agenda's. 

I must be doing something right when I am being accused of fanboying here and on Tesla reddit and TMC being hated on when I call out Tesla's crappy customer service!


----------



## SuperMatt

quagmire said:


> Savior? Hardly.....
> 
> Like I said in a political thread here..... Love his vision but by god he is a horrible human being.
> 
> I am hardly a Tesla fanboy. Where did I trash the Mach E? I outright said it's a decent EV.
> 
> I am just more skeptical of the media. Even if CR doesn't take advertising money, I don't buy their views being 100% impartial. They all have agenda's.
> 
> I must be doing something right when I am being accused of fanboying here and on Tesla reddit and TMC being hated on when I call out Tesla's crappy customer service!



What is Consumer Reports’ agenda?


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> What is Consumer Reports’ agenda?




People have been calling out CR for decades, way before Tesla existed, it was a constant on several electronics and vehicle forums I've participated in over the decades.  Back in the days of the escalation of import appliances vs. the domestic players there was a whole thing with board seats, investors, etc., I'd certainly believe there's - at the very least - some bias in what they report, what they emphasize, what they exclude (i.e., it's not fabrication).

Federal bids and projects have "no bias", there's literally laws in place to prevent it - and I can tell you from first hand experience, it's highly agendized, that's how everything works, there's always a way to capitalize a position into value.

But again, per my previous comments, if we're embracing EVs for the right reason, it doesn't matter what some - either totally unbiased or possibly slightly agendized - rag says is best because of marginal X/Y/Z differences, the real takeaway shouldn't have words like "fanboy" associated with it.


----------



## SuperMatt

DT said:


> People have been calling out CR for decades, way before Tesla existed, it was a constant on several electronics and vehicle forums I've participated in over the decades.  Back in the days of the escalation of import appliances vs. the domestic players there was a whole thing with board seats, investors, etc., I'd certainly believe there's - at the very least - some bias in what they report, what they emphasize, what they exclude (i.e., it's not fabrication).
> 
> Federal bids and projects have "no bias", there's literally laws in place to prevent it - and I can tell you from first hand experience, it's highly agendized, that's how everything works, there's always a way to capitalize a position into value.
> 
> But again, per my previous comments, if we're embracing EVs for the right reason, it doesn't matter what some - either totally unbiased or possibly slightly agendized - rag says is best because of marginal X/Y/Z differences, the real takeaway shouldn't have words like "fanboy" associated with it.



Somebody can always disagree with CR for various reasons. But other than their stated goal of promoting public safety, I don’t see any agenda they have, especially not against any specific company. They even have a “history” with Tesla, where they pointed out a flaw, Tesla fixed it, and CR then improved Tesla’s rating.

I do believe a flaw of CR is that they aren’t very forward-looking. They gave Apple low marks at times because they were evaluating based on criteria that were years out-of-date. Perhaps they have a similar blind spot for all the new EVs.


----------



## SuperMatt

Unless the car has wireless charging, I don’t think wireless CarPlay is that great. I want to charge the phone while driving, not drain its battery.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Unless the car has wireless charging, I don’t think wireless CarPlay is that great. I want to charge the phone while driving, not drain its battery.



Ioniq 5 does have wireless charger. That's the thing. The wireless charger and the hookup are far away. So wireless charging will have no benefit if you have to hook your phone up.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> Ioniq 5 does have wireless charger. That's the thing. The wireless charger and the hookup are far away. So wireless charging will have no benefit if you have to hook your phone up.



That is crazy…


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> That is crazy…



Definitely awkward:
USB is there in the front so you can put your phoone in that bin. The wireless charger is in the armrest which can roll back and forth freely in the highest trim.


----------



## Eric

cloudflare420 said:


> You are aware that CR doesn't take any advertising money right?
> 
> I don't understand why Tesla fanboys have such an huge issue acknowledging great EVs from other companies. They always have to cry bias or paid advertising.
> 
> Even your savior Elon Musk has said CR is "fair and accurate"
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1001954916569579520/



People can disagree with Musk but still like the car. Your bias and hatred for Tesla really gets the best of you.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Eric

All that bad news about gas prices...


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> All that bad news about gas prices...




Gas / Gas Stations being removed from your life is such a mix of weird + amazing.  Especially around town, they're so prevalent, I see them constantly, it seems like something I never did, yet I used to STAY at the gas station.  Granted for longer trips, there's a "fueling" logistic that has to be factored in, so that's kind of the same I suppose, but it's always such a simple thing to figure out, at least in 2022, and it's still new enough that I find it actually fun to plan (and discover new places to park )

At least in terms of having home charging, that's the real game changer.


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> Gas / Gas Stations being removed from your life is such a mix of weird + amazing.




And where you are you don't even have to deal with filling up when it is 10 degrees outside. (And no, I don't really want to hear how 40 is cold )


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> And where you are you don't even have to deal with filling up when it is 10 degrees outside. (And no, I don't really want to hear how 40 is cold )




Yeah, just the whole experience: no lines, no smell, no dirty hands, no dealing with the weather (like you said).  Unless you're in planning mode for a trip, you just don't think about "gassing up", do I do it now, do I wait, none of that, you just go home.   Hahaha, I've even got a reminder on Tessie (3rd party app) that reminds me if I come home, and don't plugin   (It's pretty cool, it also does stuff like checks the weather and alerts me via App/Watch if the windows are down / trunk is open).

Of course, that's the daily experience, where you're always ready to go from home, I get that if you're traveling, you might have to stop at a DCFC and maybe deal with waiting for a spot, but it's still cleaner, and you can just plugin and go grab a coffee.


----------



## BigMcGuire

Eric said:


> I was able to get one much sooner because they had the exact same model with my specs at a nearby dealership, it seems like a lot of people back out of their purchases, the only difference is the color is blue and I had to pay the extra $1000 for that.
> 
> I drove it about 80 miles in heavy traffic and got a feel for the autopilot system and all I can say is that it's worlds above and beyond the BMW system. First, it never lost the lines a single time, the BMW lost them about 1/4 of the time on this same drive. The nags are completely reasonable and I was surprised at how long until it finally kicked in and when it did, the nudge was really simple to reset. I see absolutely no need to circumvent this at all, it's clearly designed really well.
> 
> It's a pleasure to drive and was just as smooth as my 2020 5 series BMW. There are a lot of controls to learn so I'll take my time working with it although it's currently installing an update to 2021.44.25.2 and I'm not sure if it will change the screen significantly but it's probably a good time anyway as I'm still learning it.
> 
> The acceleration was shocking, man I can't see how something like that is even legal, it literally slammed my head back pinned me to the seat in a second flat and I don't think this is even the sporty version of the car, it's the long range.
> 
> So far I'm pretty amazed with all of it, it's definitely next level and I can see why there are so many on the road. Plus, I've never had an easier experience purchasing a car, took all of 20 minutes and I just picked the car up with the cards in it and my phone already paired, didn't even have to go into the dealership.



My wife and I just sold both our civics and got a used Tesla from Tesla.com. Monday, we paid the $500, applied for financing in the night, got it approved the next morning, and started signing stuff online Wednesday with a pickup on Monday - but they called us Sunday and asked if we wanted to pick it up early so we did. lol.

We got a 2018 Model 3 AWD LR (36,000 miles) with all the software upgrades (paid for by previous owner).

I've never used the full autopilot yet - just the two down presses on the shifter stalk to activate follow/lane assist. And wow... it did really well in downtown LA - which was surprising. It's shocking how much energy I put into driving (very noticeable after 20-30 mins of that driving mode - but I much prefer to drive the car on my own because we just got it).

And agreed, the acceleration is wicked. Having a Sunfire for my first car, then a Chevy Cobalt, then a 1.8L Honda Civic (2016), then 2018 Civic.... I've never had a faster than 8 second 0-60 car before. It's quite a change to go to something with a 3.7 second 0-60. It's dangerous. Amazing experience to have something that has that much command on the road. I've always driven super slow cars so I've always tried to stay out of people's way lol. My wife and I are pretty good drivers (got 45-52mpg combined on our trips in the civics) so we're driving fairly conservatively.

The LR and Performance Model 3 are extremely close in acceleration performance.


----------



## BigMcGuire

quagmire said:


> Nice! Blue is a nice color. Is it a '22? Red would have been my second choice, but hard to spend $2K for that. Plus the $2500 on top since I would have done the 19"  wheels and white interior.
> 
> Just saw the news drop that latest deliveries/production run in N. America are getting the Ryzen and lithium 12V battery. Manage to get lucky with getting the Ryzen powered computer? Believe the way to that is in the settings-> software-> additional info.



I prefer dark grey for my cars (or black). But we really didn't have a choice as this was well within our budget for a used Tesla. Have to say it's pretty. (2018).

Haven't had this car for more than a few days so will get better pics eventually .


----------



## DT

BigMcGuire said:


> I prefer dark grey for my cars (or black). But we really didn't have a choice as this was well within our budget for a used Tesla. Have to say it's pretty. (2018).
> 
> Haven't had this car for more than a few days so will get better pics eventually .




Are you sure that area is for electric vehicle charging?


----------



## Eric

BigMcGuire said:


> My wife and I just sold both our civics and got a used Tesla from Tesla.com. Monday, we paid the $500, applied for financing in the night, got it approved the next morning, and started signing stuff online Wednesday with a pickup on Monday - but they called us Sunday and asked if we wanted to pick it up early so we did. lol.
> 
> We got a 2018 Model 3 AWD LR (36,000 miles) with all the software upgrades (paid for by previous owner).
> 
> I've never used the full autopilot yet - just the two down presses on the shifter stalk to activate follow/lane assist. And wow... it did really well in downtown LA - which was surprising. It's shocking how much energy I put into driving (very noticeable after 20-30 mins of that driving mode - but I much prefer to drive the car on my own because we just got it).
> 
> And agreed, the acceleration is wicked. Having a Sunfire for my first car, then a Chevy Cobalt, then a 1.8L Honda Civic (2016), then 2018 Civic.... I've never had a faster than 8 second 0-60 car before. It's quite a change to go to something with a 3.7 second 0-60. It's dangerous. Amazing experience to have something that has that much command on the road. I've always driven super slow cars so I've always tried to stay out of people's way lol. My wife and I are pretty good drivers (got 45-52mpg combined on our trips in the civics) so we're driving fairly conservatively.
> 
> The LR and Performance Model 3 are extremely close in acceleration performance.



Congratulations! That's the exact same model I have and I've been loving it.

When it comes to Autopilot and FSD I would read up on the differences, it's pretty confusing overall. If it came with FSD though you'll have the ability to change lanes automatically with the blinker, outside of that there are no other real differences outside of the summon feature. In traffic the auto adaptive CC is a life saver man, makes you look forward to traffic so you can get a break lol.

Yeah man the acceleration is off the charts, I know they offer a booster but I would personally never need that. Overall it's a pleasure to drive, coming from a newer model BMW 528 I can say the comfort is comparable and the fact that I can come home and charge without ever needing to go to a gas station again is awesome. Now that gas prices are going up again you can watch the news and smugly laugh at the gas muggles.


----------



## BigMcGuire

Eric said:


> You mean the dudes who run around helping people out on the lot? Briefly because they ran up and asked if we needed anything, just asked a couple of questions like "wait, we can really just get in this car and drive it home?".



Yeah that was the strangest thing. We drove to the Marina del Rey Tesla place, walked in, signed 3 sheets of papers (my wife and I are owners) and then they were like: "You can drive away with your car now if you want" ...... vs the 6-10 hour experience at the Honda Dealership? Wow. lol. That experience alone was the greatest experience I've ever had buying a car - hands down.


----------



## Eric

BigMcGuire said:


> Yeah that was the strangest thing. We drove to the Marina del Rey Tesla place, walked in, signed 3 sheets of papers (my wife and I are owners) and then they were like: "You can drive away with your car now if you want" ...... vs the 6-10 hour experience at the Honda Dealership? Wow. lol. That experience alone was the greatest experience I've ever had buying a car - hands down.



It's next level, isn't it? I didn't even need to go into the dealership, we applied, got accepted and picked the car up directly from the lot via geo-targeting, quite cool. Although we did go inside to use the bathroom because we drove for over an hour to pick it up lol.


----------



## Herdfan

BigMcGuire said:


> Yeah that was the strangest thing. We drove to the Marina del Rey Tesla place, walked in, signed 3 sheets of papers (my wife and I are owners) and then they were like: "You can drive away with your car now if you want" ...... vs the 6-10 hour experience at the Honda Dealership? Wow. lol. That experience alone was the greatest experience I've ever had buying a car - hands down.




Was talking with a former client the other day.  He brokers high-end cars and is quite familiar with how dealerships work.

His thinking is that given that dealers have no inventory and really haven't for the better part of a year, that in the future, dealers are not going to stock 100+ units anymore.  They are going to take orders, probably online, and then survive on used cars and service.  It will be interesting for sure.


----------



## DT

BigMcGuire said:


> My wife and I just sold both our civics [...]




How did you sell them?  Just wondering if you used Carvana, Vroom, one of those types of services.


----------



## BigMcGuire

DT said:


> How did you sell them?  Just wondering if you used Carvana, Vroom, one of those types of services.



Carmax. We had 2 2018 Civics (mine had 54,000 miles, hers had 65,000 miles). Walked in, got both of them appraised in about 30 mins. The next day we sold my car, then right before picking up the Tesla, we sold her car. Took about 40-50 mins to sell them (each) - walked out with a check.

Got 80% of what we paid for them brand new lol.


----------



## DT

Nice!

Yeah, we used Carvana for both of ours, which was like 95% facilitated online, not unlike how we purchased the Tesla.

*click click click*

Cars are gone.

*click click click*

Car is purchased.

Welcome to world of the future ...


----------



## DT

Oh, I forgot to pound my chest about our Carvana deals:  DD/RT, we bought it out at the end of lease for ~$30K, turn around and sold it for $41K, Mustang GT sold for the same price I paid 2 years before (so no "profit" so to speak, but drove it for free for those two years). They were both mint, very low mileage, but an SUV in this market just tends to have way better value vs. a convertible Mustang.


----------



## DT

DT said:


> I can see myself just saying screw it and going with the simplest solution, i.e., the $10/month.  It's not really the money, just the idea of paying for an extra cellular service when we've got perfectly good, unlimited service, and a hot spot (that probably has superior performance).
> 
> They should offer like a $99/year discount.





And here we are 


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/szkhd2

(It's showing in my car as well)

Kind of makes it more of a no-brainer, especially if features like remote camera monitoring are only supported through premium connectivity.


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> And here we are
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/szkhd2
> 
> (It's showing in my car as well)
> 
> Kind of makes it more of a no-brainer, especially if features like remote camera monitoring are only supported through premium connectivity.



Yep, I'll be signing up as I planned on staying with monthly anyway.


----------



## BigMcGuire

Eric said:


> Yep, I'll be signing up as I planned on staying with monthly anyway.



What was it before? I didn't know it was something new. I just asked my friend (who has a Tesla if he had it and he said yes) so I signed up for it. We have 30 days free with our used, but already set up to purchase it (starting next month).

Edit: Ah yearly vs monthly! Nice!
Edit2: The iPhone app just let me switch to an annual plan


----------



## BigMcGuire

Took a nice little 130 mile road trip this evening. Randomly chose a Tesla charging station (come to find out, it was a level 3) - 311 miles/hr charge and wow, not cheap lol. Learned that there are different stations - and the ones with the most free charging stations are probably the faster/more expensive ones heh. Had a blast driving - the Tesla feels so effortless. Traffic no longer frustrates as much as before as I keep thinking how every slow down results in a little returned power. lol.

Tomorrow the electrician will do an inspection for an EV charger install quote!


----------



## DT

BigMcGuire said:


> Took a nice little 130 mile road trip this evening. Randomly chose a Tesla charging station (come to find out, it was a level 3) - 311 miles/hr charge and wow, not cheap lol. Learned that there are different stations - and the ones with the most free charging stations are probably the faster/more expensive ones heh. Had a blast driving - the Tesla feels so effortless. Traffic no longer frustrates as much as before as I keep thinking how every slow down results in a little returned power. lol.
> 
> Tomorrow the electrician will do an inspection for an EV charger install quote!





Yeah, there's a Supercharger (SuC) Level 2 and Level 3 (not to be confused with Level 1 and Level 2 "destination" or home charging).  Superchargers use DCFC, DC Fast Charging, that is, they output DC directly to your car's battery (slightly more complex but that's the basic concept).  The "chargers" that connect to AC, whether hardwired or via an outlet send AC power are technically an EVSE (not a charger), there's a charger in the car itself that handles the AC >> DC >> Battery process.

SuC Level 2 support up to 150kW and use a shared supply (so more cars mean less available power), the newer Level 3 currently support up to 250kW to each vehicle and there's supposed to be an upgrade to 324kW (though our Model 3s don't support this).

FWIW, I've heard people say don't mention an EV for an outlet install, hahaha, don't know if that really will make a difference, but I don't recall if you're going with a hardwired Tesla charger, or a 50a outlet and using the TMC or another branded charger.


----------



## Eric

BigMcGuire said:


> Took a nice little 130 mile road trip this evening. Randomly chose a Tesla charging station (come to find out, it was a level 3) - 311 miles/hr charge and wow, not cheap lol. Learned that there are different stations - and the ones with the most free charging stations are probably the faster/more expensive ones heh. Had a blast driving - the Tesla feels so effortless. Traffic no longer frustrates as much as before as I keep thinking how every slow down results in a little returned power. lol.
> 
> Tomorrow the electrician will do an inspection for an EV charger install quote!



Okay, I had to do my share of comparisons and shopping around so I'll share my personal experience. Based on my usage I do not need super fast charging such as the Tesla wall charger, which is really spendy. I opted to get get a 240 volt - 50 amp outlet installed, as long as there's no long runs (such as the circuit box being far away from the charging location) this should cost you less than $500. I have mine installed just below the breaker box.

Then you just buy the NEMA 14-50 adapter from Tesla for $45 which fits on your existing charging cable. You'll get around 30 miles per hour of charge at 32 amps, I start mine at midnight because it's discounted at that time in CA and it's always done by the time I get up. 

YMMV but this setup has been perfect for me and I would think as long as you don't need to constantly charge and go several times a day it would be sufficient for anyone.


----------



## DT

Yeah, 32a is plenty, there's not much difference in 29-30 mi/hour vs. 36-37 mi/hour, in an 8-10 hour overnight charge, and since most charging is more like restoring 20-25% battery, that's just a few hours either way.

A couple of FYI for @BigMcGuire

For continuous power, you should only use 80% of the rated max current for a circuit, i.e., a 50a circuit (breaker) should only be used at a max of 40a, which is why you never see plugin chargers rated at more than 40a, since 50 is the most for standard NEMA outlets vs. hard wiring.

There are two 50a NEMA outlet specs, an N6-50 (3-prong, 3-wire) and an N14-50 (4-prong, 4-wire).  The latter is an extra neutral that allows for 2-phase, so the outlet can supply both 120v and 240v which is not needed for any EV, that's a design that's common for an RV/RV parks where they want a single cable to provide both voltages (like for lights and a stove).

The N6-50 is a common outlet for heavy shop equipment, like a welder, it only supplies 240v.

I mention this because a longer run of 4-wire can get a bit more costly vs. a 3-wire run, and the latter has no downside for an EV.  In fact, that's what I had installed (N6-50).  Some people will bring up the ability to use a mobile charger at an RV park, but that's not a use case that will ever come up for us, if it was, I'd just get a N14-50 adapter for the TMC which we only use for travel (and really just carry it as a backup).

That's why you see most companies offering both, if there was a specific advantage/concern/etc., they'd lean into a single outlet spec:


----------



## quagmire

I would say going to 48A is beneficial if you live in a cold climate where the battery heater and HVAC during pre-conditioning can draw more than 32A from what I have read especially since his Model 3 has the PTC heater and not the heat pump. But he lives in Southern CA, so 32A should be fine.


----------



## DT

Oh, and call me not surprised ... this was info from a Tesla diag/service app, from a pretty well known Tesla hacker:











Eventually Musk will wall this back and offer an option for either on the S and X, and a retrofit (the latter probably OOP for the owner).  Without dynamic ratio steering (and they are working on this for future models), it's a burden.

Hahaha, where John-the-yoke-is-awesome when you need him


----------



## DT

A couple of quick back-to-back updates


----------



## BigMcGuire

Well due to the complexity of the complex I live in, the electricians just left. The estimate is $2331 not counting 20 holes that will need drywall repair. Looks like we'll be charging from an outlet (at best 5 mi/hr) while we live here . At least there's Level 2 chargers a few streets away at the city hall ($3.30/2hrs) that's only a 10 min walk.

They seemed to think that the outlet in the garage could take 16 amps as long as there wasn't any other load but just to be safe we'll probably keep it at 12 amps because we're doing fine with 4mi/hr and 6mi/hr at college.

We only do 104 miles every other day (that must happen) and can fairly easily charge 62+ miles overnight from 8pm to 7am.


----------



## Eric

BigMcGuire said:


> Well due to the complexity of the complex I live in, the electricians just left. The estimate is $2331 not counting 20 holes that will need drywall repair. Looks like we'll be charging from an outlet (at best 5 mi/hr) while we live here . At least there's Level 2 chargers a few streets away at the city hall ($3.30/2hrs) that's only a 10 min walk.
> 
> They seemed to think that the outlet in the garage could take 16 amps as long as there wasn't any other load but just to be safe we'll probably keep it at 12 amps because we're doing fine with 4mi/hr and 6mi/hr at college.
> 
> We only do 104 miles every other day (that must happen) and can fairly easily charge 62+ miles overnight from 8pm to 7am.



Not uncommon from what I've seen and plenty of people who own EVs are in the same boat. I still hit superchargers when I'm out and about on longer drives and they're quick and easy... often times I need less than 10 minutes. If you're just tooling around town a charge will last for a long time.


----------



## DT

Great video from someone with a '21 M3LR (with heat pump), using it in some pretty serious winter weather (snow/Nor'easter):








Tesla has such a killer AWD system.


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Great video from someone with a '21 M3LR (with heat pump), using it in some pretty serious winter weather (snow/Nor'easter):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla has such a killer AWD system.



16 minutes!?






We need a TLDR here.


----------



## quagmire

Eric said:


> 16 minutes!?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We need a TLDR here.




Really good pair of winter tires is better than all seasons in the snow.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> 16 minutes!?
> 
> We need a TLDR here.





They push a stuck Hyundai, check out the beach, yeah, it's a lot of nothing, but at least well put together, and to be honest, I just enjoyed seeing people drifting around in the snow 

It's just a time killer vs. a deep dive on much of anything beyond what @quagmire pointed out


----------



## Apple fanboy

So in our second test drive today which I booked for Mrs AFB mostly, I decided to drive to work and back after I dropped her home. Really wanted to work the battery so drove there with the heated seats on (both) and the aircon on full. Lol. Half of me was freezing. The other half boiling. 
Anyway I still had plenty left in the tank so to speak. In fact it hardly used as much as I’d have expected.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> They push a stuck Hyundai, check out the beach, yeah, it's a lot of nothing, but at least well put together, and to be honest, I just enjoyed seeing people drifting around in the snow
> 
> It's just a time killer vs. a deep dive on much of anything beyond what @quagmire pointed out



Something I enjoyed about Michigan sans the potholes...


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> Something I enjoyed about Michigan sans the potholes...




Oh, this one time in PA we were up visiting, we had driven the 4Runner, and they had a massive snowstorm.  I had a __blast__ driving around in the snow, basically kind of backroad/rural near my BIL's place, the 4Runner was pretty unstoppable, even without snow tires (it had some pretty meaty offroad designed rubber).


----------



## Eric

Setting up to take this photo I was crawling around at idle speed and then curved the wheels as I was parking, I was barely even moving, just curving the wheels. The car screeched at me for "aggressive turning" and grabbed the wheel from me, scared the hell out of me because it was out of nowhere. It also dinged my driving score. Man you just have LOL out just how out of touch that big brother shit is in this car, they're not even close to getting it right.

Anyway, here's the photo that cost me points.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> Setting up to take this photo I was crawling around at idle speed and then curved the wheels as I was parking, I was barely even moving, just curving the wheels. The car screeched at me for "aggressive turning" and grabbed the wheel from me, scared the hell out of me because it was out of nowhere. It also dinged my driving score. Man you just have LOL out just how out of touch that big brother shit is in this car, they're not even close to getting it right.
> 
> Anyway, here's the photo that cost me points.
> 
> View attachment 12075



Wait until they link it with your insurance! Nice photo btw.


----------



## DT

Nice.  Are those almond trees?


----------



## Eric

Apple fanboy said:


> Wait until they link it with your insurance! Nice photo btw.



Thanks. It's actually their own "Safety Score" that determines whether or not you are capable of handling of their FSD (full self driving) beta, which gives you the ability to allow the car to drive you around city streets. You need a score of 99 or better, so far the highest I've been able to get is 85 and the car keeps doing shit to penalize itself without my intervention. 

Short of keeping lanes on the freeway, the autonomous systems in this car are no where near ready for real world use, they've put so many limitations and restrictions on it that IMO it's more dangerous than helpful. In the end you are paying $12K a year to babysit a car that can't handle the most basic of driving functions without user intervention.

All that aside, it's a well designed EV but it'll be years before it can handle any real automation. Anyone paying for these "features" are out of their minds, including myself for even trying it for 30 days.



DT said:


> Nice.  Are those almond trees?



Some other kind, not sure, the almonds still haven't fully flowered yet.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Some other kind, not sure, the almonds still haven't fully flowered yet.




Ahh, I wondered, I originally thought maybe those were cherry blossoms, but when I looked up cherry blossoms california I got a bunch of hits on almond blossoms!


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> Thanks. It's actually their own "Safety Score" that determines whether or not you are capable of handling of their FSD (full self driving) beta, which gives you the ability to allow the car to drive you around city streets. You need a score of 99 or better, so far the highest I've been able to get is 85 and the car keeps doing shit to penalize itself without my intervention.
> 
> Short of keeping lanes on the freeway, the autonomous systems in this car are no where near ready for real world use, they've put so many limitations and restrictions on it that IMO it's more dangerous than helpful. In the end you are paying $12K a year to babysit a car that can't handle the most basic of driving functions without user intervention.
> 
> All that aside, it's a well designed EV but it'll be years before it can handle any real automation. Anyone paying for these "features" are out of their minds, including myself for even trying it for 30 days.
> 
> 
> Some other kind, not sure, the almonds still haven't fully flowered yet.



Well I do t think I’ll have all those features on my BMW, but it has enough options to keep me happy. Mind you I’ve not finalised the order yet. That’s tomorrow’s task. Also will be talking to an electric charging point installer. Just as well I’ve got the day off.


----------



## Eric

Apple fanboy said:


> Well I do t think I’ll have all those features on my BMW, but it has enough options to keep me happy. Mind you I’ve not finalised the order yet. That’s tomorrow’s task. Also will be talking to an electric charging point installer. Just as well I’ve got the day off.



I had the driving assist package on my 2020 528i, but there was no full self-drive, are they offering that now? In mine it did really well with the traffic jam assist piece, below 37 MPH. But on the highway it would lose the lines quite a bit and make you take over, it also bounced between the lines (like bumper bowling) and would not keep centered. I'll say the Tesla has been flawless on this aspect, it never loses them and remains centered well.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> I had the driving assist package on my 2020 528i, but there was no full self-drive, are they offering that now? In mine it did really well with the traffic jam assist piece, below 37 MPH. But on the highway it would lose the lines quite a bit and make you take over, it also bounced between the lines (like bumper bowling) and would not keep centered. I'll say the Tesla has been flawless on this aspect, it never loses them and remains centered well.



I think it has Lane assist and adaptive cruise control, but I’m not sure if I’m having those options. Need to keep the RRP below £40k or I’ll get hit with a luxury car tax for 5 years.


----------



## DT

Put about 1/4 a tank of gas the Wrangler, mostly just to shut off FORM - being a PHEV that's run 90-95% on electric mode, the ICE engine has a timer that forces it on for *F*uel/*O*il *R*efresh *M*ode, just a little fresh gas resets it. I think we're on like 35-40 days on the same tank with little use 

Anyway, holy f-in heck, the 93 was *$4.33 / gallon* (just using 89 in the Wrangler, but I used to run tuned performance cars requiring 93 ...)


***

For some of the new Tesla owners like @BigMcGuire and folks currently considering (like @citypix ) this is a cool feature:

Tesla cars (and backend cloud services) have a public API, so 3rd party apps can be developed.  I'm currently using Tessie and TeslaScope, that gives me web control, an Apple Watch app (with automations and voice control), extensive reporting and analytics, more sophisticated notifications, etc.


----------



## Eric

Opted out of the beta queue and it removed the Safety Score from my app and it's liberating. I don't know how you guys maintain a score of 99 or above (especially you @DT, you hot roddin' mofo!) but if I even looked at the car funny I would lose 3 points. Also, my one month test FSD will be over this week and I won't miss it. In the end the only real difference it makes is the signal on freeways and is in no way worth the extra money.


----------



## BigMcGuire

Eric said:


> Opted out of the beta queue and it removed the Safety Score from my app and it's liberating. I don't know how you guys maintain a score of 99 or above (especially you @DT, you hot roddin' mofo!) but if I even looked at the car funny I would lose 3 points. Also, my one month test FSD will be over this week and I won't miss it. In the end the only real difference it makes is the signal on freeways and is in no way worth the extra money.



Can't. I'm at 89% and consider myself to be a good driver. I spent most of my working life driving an insane # of miles (for 6 years I drove 190 miles a day). To try to get a good driving score would require me to drive like an *** imo.

First thing I had to do was turn off the emergency lane assist because I like to drive close to the line in the carpool lane to let motorcycles by. It did not like that. Same for when I was forced out of my lane by an inattentive driver, the emergency lane assist almost threw me back into the lane drifter. Yep, that got turned off.

Trash day? I live in a town house / apartment complex. So just trying to park my car in my garage on trash day resulted in 6-7 close proximity warnings.

405 traffic in LA? There are constant close calls that are not my fault that get counted against me.

I dislike the Safety Score because it is unfair.


----------



## Eric

BigMcGuire said:


> Can't. I'm at 89% and consider myself to be a good driver. I spent most of my working life driving an insane # of miles (for 6 years I drove 190 miles a day). To try to get a good driving score would require me to drive like an *** imo.
> 
> First thing I had to do was turn off the emergency lane assist because I like to drive close to the line in the carpool lane to let motorcycles by. It did not like that. Same for when I was forced out of my lane by an inattentive driver, the emergency lane assist almost threw me back into the lane drifter. Yep, that got turned off.
> 
> Trash day? I live in a town house / apartment complex. So just trying to park my car in my garage on trash day resulted in 6-7 close proximity warnings.
> 
> 405 traffic in LA? There are constant close calls that are not my fault that get counted against me.
> 
> *I dislike the Safety Score because it is unfair.*



Right, and it's easy for Musk to tweet about no accidents while using their system when literally nobody gets to use their system lol. Seems like you have to drive like a little old lady, pissing off everyone around you to keep your car from dinging you. In the end it's just not worth it.

I would guess that the adaptive CC does well for you in that traffic though, right? In both the Tesla and BMW I've found this to be invaluable, the only drawback is it leaves so much room in front of you that people cut you off constantly.


----------



## BigMcGuire

Took our Tesla on a road trip over the weekend. Drove way too much and had to supercharge 3 times in 1 day. lol. It was an amazing experience - drove on gravel, dirt roads, and the Tesla took it better than our Civic would have. The supercharging was perfect - never spent more than 30 mins waiting and came back to an almost fully charged car. Full cost of the day's 3 charges? $40. Gave us enough time to plug in, hit the restroom, grab a bite to eat, and hit the road again.

Utilized the full auto driving feature for several hours - the "move steering wheel slightly" thing is excessive at night/morning hours. Found out the car immediately knows if you pick up your cell phone and complains loudly (as the driver) or if you are tired (while full self driving is on). That was a bit freaky. While I like the feature, I wouldn't pay for it (came with the used Tesla we bought).

I've never experienced having to get out of a bad situation with acceleration (previous civic owner) - had 2 events where I could have slammed on my brakes and risked getting rear ended, or accelerate out of a bad situation - that was liberating and amazing. (I drive all the time with sport accelerator).

Absolutely loving this car and know that we've acclimated to the supercharging stations - we're a lot more confident about traveling around (though I hope to not touch a super charger for a very long time).


----------



## BigMcGuire

Eric said:


> Right, and it's easy for Musk to tweet about no accidents while using their system when literally nobody gets to use their system lol. My guess is you have to drive like a little old lady, pissing off everyone around you to keep your car from dinging you. In the end it's just not worth it.
> 
> I would guess that the adaptive CC does well for you in that traffic though, right? In both the Tesla and BMW I've found this to be invaluable, the only drawback is it leaves so much room in front of you that people cut you off constantly.



YES - I did a big comparison between adaptive steering/following and the full self driving. IMO, how I use them, they're identical (I only use them when driving on a lonely freeway with a long drive). I'm learning to leave my hands on the wheel and let them pull on the steering wheel a little so it never asks me to move the steering wheel (otherwise I have to keep my eye glued for the blue flashing). But yeah I really like that.

Yes, FSD followed a bit too close for my liking, but the adaptive CC left way too much space - constantly pissing people off and resulting in people pulling in front. So I only use them when on an isolated long drive highway (like yesterday's road trip) - or super heavy LA traffic.


----------



## BigMcGuire

Only negative thing after our trip? Noticing that turning the steering wheel results in a creaking noise. So we have Tesla's mobile service coming Thursday to check that out. Looks like the 2018 models have this as a common warranty fix.


----------



## BigMcGuire

DT said:


> Put about 1/4 a tank of gas the Wrangler, mostly just to shut off FORM - being a PHEV that's run 90-95% on electric mode, the ICE engine has a timer that forces it on for *F*uel/*O*il *R*efresh *M*ode, just a little fresh gas resets it. I think we're on like 35-40 days on the same tank with little use
> 
> Anyway, holy f-in heck, the 93 was *$4.33 / gallon* (just using 89 in the Wrangler, but I used to run tuned performance cars requiring 93 ...)
> 
> 
> ***
> 
> For some of the new Tesla owners like @BigMcGuire and folks currently considering (like @citypix ) this is a cool feature:
> 
> Tesla cars (and backend cloud services) have a public API, so 3rd party apps can be developed.  I'm currently using Tessie and TeslaScope, that gives me web control, an Apple Watch app (with automations and voice control), extensive reporting and analytics, more sophisticated notifications, etc.
> 
> View attachment 12095
> 
> View attachment 12094



This looks very attractive. I saw the $ and immediately said: "I wanna get used to my Tesla first" - as we continue to get used to our Tesla I can see how stuff like this would be nice - making it more and more attractive - especially because I think we're (at the moment) heavy drivers - would love to see that data.


----------



## DT

Hahaha, this is pretty fun 

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1498432636171304962/


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Hahaha, this is pretty fun
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1498432636171304962/



Dude appears to really love slamming his car doors.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Dude appears to really love slamming his car doors.




Dang, I didn't even notice that till you pointed it out, oh man, that's one of my pet peeves ...


----------



## Arkitect

Eric said:


> Setting up to take this photo I was crawling around at idle speed and then curved the wheels as I was parking, I was barely even moving, just curving the wheels. The car screeched at me for "aggressive turning" and grabbed the wheel from me, scared the hell out of me because it was out of nowhere. It also dinged my driving score. Man you just have LOL out just how out of touch that big brother shit is in this car, they're not even close to getting it right.
> 
> Anyway, here's the photo that cost me points.
> 
> View attachment 12075



I am no good with "backseat drivers" — and to have the car shout at me would be just… "Fuck off already!"


----------



## DT

Rivian is introducing new 2-motor models (the previous were 4-motor) and dramatically raising the price of the current 4-motor:



> Effective immediately, The Rivian R1T's price is increasing "approximately 17%" which will increase the base cost from $67,500 to approximately $78,975. The R1S will see a whopping price increase of "approximately 20%" bringing the new base price from $70,000 to about $84,000. Additionally, the cost of certain options, upgrades, and accessories has also increased.
> 
> The new pricing structure isn't just for new reservations. The price increase will also also be applied to existing reservations. This will affect the majority of reservation holders except for the customers who were already in the final steps of completing their transaction with Rivian. Therefore, unless you've spoken with your Rivian representative lately, and your vehicle is already in, or entering production right now, the price increase will be applied to your order.
> 
> In an effort to alleviate some of the sting of the price increase, Rivian is announcing the lower-cost dual-motor option at this time to offer customers a way to retain their R1T or R1S reservation without paying any more than they have already committed to.
> 
> Unfortunately, in order to keep the same price, they will have to accept the following:
> 
> The dual-motor vehicle instead of the quad-motor they originally reserved
> A 260-mile (EPA-estimate) battery instead of the 314-mile (EPA rated) battery
> Wait one to two years longer to take delivery. (Rivian estimates dual-motor deliveries will begin in 2024)




I saw some guy say his existing order went up by $15,000, so it's a $100K truck.


----------



## quagmire

Guess Rivian decided to take that page out of Tesla's customer service handbook.....


----------



## DT

I'm seeing people saying they wound up with an $18,000 to $22,000 price increase __and__ they're being told their existing order, from months ago, due to be delivered soon, is also getting the price increase.

Like I guy had a $78K truck ordered, being told a delivery in 2 months, but it's now $90K, that's pretty insane.


----------



## Eric

Sentry Mode is one of the best features of the Tesla.


Brand New Tesla Model Y from
      IdiotsInCars


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Sentry Mode is one of the best features of the Tesla.




I should probably use it more than I do.  Especially around town where there's no long[er] term battery concern.


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> I should probably use it more than I do.  Especially around town where there's no long[er] term battery concern.



The only complaint I have about it is that it turns on even when I'm at home (I do have it set to not turn on when at home or work in the settings) but half the time it still turns on anyway and I just manually shut it off in the app. it's an attached garage right next to the living area but it's still buggy I think.


----------



## BigMcGuire

Sentry mode has been handy for us - most of the time it's someone that gets too close to the car, the car blinks its lights, they look at the car in confusion and back off. We had to set a home location in the map app before it would allow us to not set sentry mode for home (since it's in a garage) - but we leave it on for work (college).


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> The only complaint I have about it is that it turns on even when I'm at home (I do have it set to not turn on when at home or work in the settings) but half the time it still turns on anyway and I just manually shut it off in the app. it's an attached garage right next to the living area but it's still buggy I think.




Maybe a funky geo-fencing?  Have you tried setting home up again?


----------



## DT

OK, looks like the CEO of Rivian walked that back, I'm not sure how much damage was done, both in terms of actual lost orders/revenue and general PR, but this is certainly what existing order holders wanted to hear:



> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Earlier this week, we announced pricing increases that broke the trust we have worked to build with you. Since originally setting our pricing structure, and most especially in recent months, a lot has changed. The costs of the components and materials that go into building our vehicles have risen considerably. Everything from semiconductors to sheet metal to seats has become more expensive and with this we have seen average new vehicle pricing across the U.S. rise more than 30% since 2018. Given our build lead up times, we need to plan production costs not only for today, but also for the future.
> 
> As we worked to update pricing to reflect these cost increases, we wrongly decided to make these changes apply to all future deliveries, including pre-existing configured preorders. We failed to appreciate how you viewed your configuration as price locked, and we wrongly assumed the announced Dual-Motor and Standard battery pack would provide configurations that would deliver price points similar to your original configuration. While this was the logic, it was wrong and we broke your trust in Rivian.
> 
> We also didn’t manage communications well. We didn’t give you enough insight into what was driving these decisions. The most important aspect of what we are building is our relationship with all of you. As we demonstrated earlier this week, trust is hard to build and easy to break. In speaking with many of you over the last two days, I fully realize and acknowledge how upset many of you felt. I have made a lot of mistakes since starting Rivian more than 12 years ago, but this one has been the most painful. I am truly sorry and committed to rebuilding your trust.
> 
> One of the things we talk about a lot internally is that we will make mistakes – it’s part of building something complex. The key is to learn from them and address them when they are made. It is how we grow. We made a mistake in how we approached our pricing changes, and what is important now is that we fix it.
> 
> *For anyone with a Rivian preorder as of the March 1 pricing announcement, your original configured price will be honored. If you canceled your preorder on or after March 1 and would like to reinstate it, we will restore your original configuration, pricing and delivery timing. Our team will be sending an email in the next few days with more details.*
> 
> Regarding our updated pricing for future preorders, the introduction of our Dual-Motor configuration and Standard battery pack has been designed to enable us to maintain lower starting prices while adjusting the pricing of the Quad-Motor and larger battery packs to reflect rising costs. Building a durable business is core to the continued impact we can deliver as a company. We are focused on building a brand and products that will continue to scale to different vehicle sizes, use cases, price points and markets – this growth will only be possible with your support and continued feedback.
> 
> Thank you for the personal notes and discussions I had with so many of you. Your feedback makes us better.
> 
> RJ


----------



## rdrr

With the unreasonable gas price increases the past week, I am really tired of the insta price increase due to (political or economical issue X).  It's such B.S.   /rant off

I have been eyeing the Ioniq 5 for a while and had some general questions if this the right car for me, or if EV cars are.

Q. Has anyone taken advantage of the 2 year, 30 minute unlimited charging from the Electrify America partnership, when you buy an Ioniq 5?   Wondering what he strings attached are.

More a of a preamble to this next question.  I am a nervous nelly when I get below 54 miles to go on my ICE vehicle and am starting to look for the cheapest gas around my area that is convenient to me.    Q. How low do people push their remaining charge?  And I assume that having a recharge area on my side of the highway will be a thing of the past.

Finally,  Q. How long did it take for you to factor in and make apart of your routine, for the 30 minutes - 1 hour of charge time you have to take during your trips or weekly schedule?   What do you do to kill the time?


----------



## BigMcGuire

rdrr said:


> With the unreasonable gas price increases the past week, I am really tired of the insta price increase due to (political or economical issue X).  It's such B.S.   /rant off
> 
> I have been eyeing the Ioniq 5 for a while and had some general questions if this the right car for me, or if EV cars are.
> 
> Q. Has anyone taken advantage of the 2 year, 30 minute unlimited charging from the Electrify America partnership, when you buy an Ioniq 5?   Wondering what he strings attached are.
> 
> More a of a preamble to this next question.  I am a nervous nelly when I get below 54 miles to go on my ICE vehicle and am starting to look for the cheapest gas around my area that is convenient to me.    Q. How low do people push their remaining charge?  And I assume that having a recharge area on my side of the highway will be a thing of the past.
> 
> Finally,  Q. How long did it take for you to factor in and make apart of your routine, for the 30 minutes - 1 hour of charge time you have to take during your trips or weekly schedule?   What do you do to kill the time?



My wife and I got fed up with $5/gal and got a used electric vehicle on the 20th of last month. We live in an apartment complex so we're surviving off of wall charging (and free university wall charging) (5-6mi/hr).

Our charging stats so far (big red line in middle was a long road trip we did). Other is free (university charging) - so that's why there's a bit of a $ skew.

No more spending 1 hour a week in a Costco gas line. I will not miss it.

To answer your question? Charging at the Tesla supercharger - we had just enough time to grab a bite to eat, take a leak, and we come back to a nearly fully charged car. All the 3rd party stations we've tried to charge at required a $400-$600 adapter to work with them so ... yeah... no thanks.

But like you, I usually kept my tank full - even if I had to fill it after a short trip. We can usually keep our Tesla at 150-250 miles fairly easy with our driving schedule (110 miles every 2 days) with normal wall charging. If we were able to install an EV charger at home (like most EV owners I know) - we could fully charge our car in a handful of hours (or 2-3 from half full).

Now? We just leave our car charging at the wall all the time when not in use - and it really hasn't affected us at all. Long trips? 15 min Tesla supercharging will take you from 7% to 80%.


----------



## DT

rdrr said:


> Finally,  Q. How long did it take for you to factor in and make apart of your routine, for the 30 minutes - 1 hour of charge time you have to take during your trips or weekly schedule?   What do you do to kill the time?




Home charging.

There is no 30-60 minutes stops for me, I'm always charged from home.  If I had to commute, let's say up to Jacksonville, about 70 miles round trip, I'd be charged from overnight, drive to work, drive home plug in, done.

It really is an entirely different usage model.  Now, if you can't accommodate home charging, the conversation is a bit different (also assuming your primary daily mileage is work where you also don't have a charger).

We're headed to Savannah, I might just Supercharge on the way, so we don't have to even think about it till we get home, we'd hit the Pooler SuC, in about 10 minutes we'll be topped off, we'll park, and in a few days drive home ~150 miles, without any stopping


----------



## BigMcGuire

DT said:


> Home charging.
> 
> There is no 30-60 minutes stops for me, I'm always charged from home.  If I had to commute, let's say up to Jacksonville, about 70 miles round trip, I'd be charged from overnight, drive to work, drive home plug in, done.
> 
> It really is an entirely different usage model.  Now, if you can't accommodate home charging, the conversation is a bit different (also assuming your primary daily mileage is work where you also don't have a charger).
> 
> We're headed to Savannah, I might just Supercharge on the way, so we don't have to even think about it till we get home, we'd hit the Pooler SuC, in about 10 minutes we'll be topped off, we'll park, and in a few days drive home ~150 miles, without any stopping



Yep, never have had a 30-60 min stop. But may be unique due to Tesla? Most of the EVAmerica chargers I see are 150kw so they should be pretty fast (here in CA).

Yesterday we drove to the university and put 120+ miles on the car (went to grocery store after). And right now, after charging all day yesterday, overnight:





We'll be 85% charged in 5 hours (I really don't even need to charge it). My wife will drive to university tomorrow and charge all day at the university - will add +72 miles.

And yes, we named our car after a wonderful Star Trek character .


----------



## DT

I grabbed the legal from the free charging that's included with the Ioniq 5:

_Available on new 2022 IONIQ 5 Electric vehicles purchased from an authorized U.S.-based (excluding Alaska) Hyundai dealer on or before December 31, 2023. Two years of unlimited 30-minute complimentary charging sessions from the date of purchase at Electrify America charging stations Non-transferable. Not available for commercial use, such as ridesharing. Requires Electrify America account, app, acceptance of Terms of Use, and enrollment in Hyundai Premium Charging plan. After user-initiated charge session stop or vehicle reaches full charge or charging otherwise stops, and 10-min grace period, Idle Fees will apply and user is responsible. In the event of suspected fraud or abuse or other unforeseen events, Hyundai Motor America may discontinue or modify the offer in its sole discretion._

Doesn't seem like there's any tricky language, they limit charging to 30 minutes per session, but the Ioniq charges fast, so that seems like plenty.  I'm assuming, there's no required time between sessions, like you could charge for 30, unplug, go get a coffee, come back, plug in again for another 30 minutes.


----------



## SuperMatt

rdrr said:


> With the unreasonable gas price increases the past week, I am really tired of the insta price increase due to (political or economical issue X).  It's such B.S.   /rant off



Ever notice that when oil prices go up, they immediately raise gas prices, but when oil prices go down, they always keep the prices high for a while and say “well it takes a while for oil to be made into gas and get to the pump”?


----------



## SuperMatt

rdrr said:


> More a of a preamble to this next question. I am a nervous nelly when I get below 54 miles to go on my ICE vehicle and am starting to look for the cheapest gas around my area that is convenient to me. Q. How low do people push their remaining charge? And I assume that having a recharge area on my side of the highway will be a thing of the past.



The mileage remaining indicator on EVs is much more accurate than the one on gas vehicles, IMHO. I wouldn’t trust it to the exact mile, but if it says you have 50 miles left, you probably have at least 40.

I would not take an EV on a long road trip without planning out the charging first. You can’t just drive merrily on your way and assume you’ll hit a charging point by luck. The US infrastructure plan is supposed to add 500,000 more chargers. That should help with that problem, but it will take a while. I’ve had an EV for 6 years, and Plugshare is the best resource I've found, and it works with CarPlay too.


----------



## DT

Yeah, @SuperMatt has an important point about heading out without planning on a (more than your range) road trip.  In addition to PlugShare, I'd very highly recommend A Better Route Planner:






						ABRP
					






					abetterrouteplanner.com
				




It's free (pay version too, not really needed), it has mapping, charge/route planning, all sort of things like stop information (places to eat, etc.) projected costs, and a database of vehicles for mileage reference.


----------



## rdrr

DT said:


> ABRP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abetterrouteplanner.com



Holy crap that planner is awesome.   Thanks!


----------



## DT

rdrr said:


> Holy crap that planner is awesome.   Thanks!




Yeah, knocking around in that app was definitely part of my decision making process.  It really let me get my head around the logistics of longer range travel, and how it wasn't a big deal.

There's both the website I linked to and iOS iPadOS apps, and a Watch App too, though I've never used it (I think it's more for real-time navigation).


----------



## cloudflare420

DT said:


> I grabbed the legal from the free charging that's included with the Ioniq 5:
> 
> _Available on new 2022 IONIQ 5 Electric vehicles purchased from an authorized U.S.-based (excluding Alaska) Hyundai dealer on or before December 31, 2023. Two years of unlimited 30-minute complimentary charging sessions from the date of purchase at Electrify America charging stations Non-transferable. Not available for commercial use, such as ridesharing. Requires Electrify America account, app, acceptance of Terms of Use, and enrollment in Hyundai Premium Charging plan. After user-initiated charge session stop or vehicle reaches full charge or charging otherwise stops, and 10-min grace period, Idle Fees will apply and user is responsible. In the event of suspected fraud or abuse or other unforeseen events, Hyundai Motor America may discontinue or modify the offer in its sole discretion._
> 
> Doesn't seem like there's any tricky language, they limit charging to 30 minutes per session, but the Ioniq charges fast, so that seems like plenty.  I'm assuming, there's no required time between sessions, like you could charge for 30, unplug, go get a coffee, come back, plug in again for another 30 minutes.




I think there’s a 60-min grace period between sessions now. I remember it from some Ioniq5 video on YouTube. 

Shouldn’t be an issue as long as you go to a 350kW EA charger


----------



## User.45

It's a general comment, but looking seriously into MachE premium and Ioniq5 limited and I'm just frustrated. Most dealers have really obnoxious markups, and the actual car is nowhere near the advertised price. Ioniq 5 costs 56-57K, Mach E premium is like 60K. For 50K I get a long-range model 3 that can do 351 miles with the Tesla network at my disposal. These stupid cars lose none of their (perceived) value as of yet, whereas I really doubt that's gonna be the case with either ford's or hyundai's EVs. At the trigger level it really boils down to who I hate more, car dealers or Musk.


----------



## DT

DT said:


> OK, looks like the CEO of Rivian walked that back, I'm not sure how much damage was done, both in terms of actual lost orders/revenue and general PR, but this is certainly what existing order holders wanted to hear:




Ouch.






Rivian has released its Q4 2022 earnings today and confirmed that it lost over $2.4 billion during the last quarter as it still faces significant challenges in ramping up production.

The automaker has revised its production target for 2022 to 25,000 and it plans to lose money on those.

Rivian confirmed that it produced only 1,410 vehicles so far in 2022, which is barely more than they did in 2021.

But it included a production shutdown to upgrade the production lines and the automaker now claims that it doubled its exit rate over the last two weeks:

_“We are focused on our production ramp and are encouraged by the team’s progress. This is reflected in strong recent week-over-week production rate growth, wherein our output has been constrained primarily by supplier constraints. The critical production areas of the plant, including battery module, general assembly, skateboard assembly, body shop, and paint shop, continue to each set record weekly production levels for Rivian. During the two trailing weeks prior to March 8, we averaged a weekly production rate that was approximately two times the exit rate of Q4 2021. As of March 8, we have produced 1,410 vehicles in 2022 and 2,425 vehicles since the start of production.”_

The automaker claims that it would be ready to produce as many as 25,000 vehicles between its 3 models, R1T (pickup), R1S (SUV), and EDV (delivery van), but that supply chain issues plaguing the industry is limiting their guidance to 25,000 units this year.


----------



## quagmire

I want to root for these companies. It is so hard to break into the industry. Tesla nearly went under themselves before the Model 3. 

I am just not the type of person to plop down $70,000 on an upstart that has no network to support the vehicle. I would not own a Tesla right now if I lived in an area where I would need to drive over an hour to get it to a service center, let alone 3 hours some people do. It's still partially the reason why if I was to get an EV pickup, it would be the Cybertruck maybe then followed by the Silverado EV due to dealers experience with the Bolt. Ford dealers are still struggling with supporting the Mach E from what I have read. 

Still I wish all the best to Rivian. They are putting out an interesting product. They need to get the support network built for it as well.


----------



## DT

Oh, me too, heck, Rivian could possibly be a consideration for us, if:

- The product __and__ company has proven itself, no catastrophic issues, business is financially viable
- An order can be fulfilled in a "reasonable" amount of time (If I'm the 50,000th order and they're making 10K a year ... no)
- They'll have sold enough to establish a decent service footprint / model (per your service comment)
- The 400 mile (extended range) R1S will be available
- Price doesn't escalate a lot more, if it's a $130K vehicle in 2 years ... nope.

Musk wasn't wrong when he was sort of minimizing the engineering side of things and really emphasizing how hard it is to enter the consumer vehicle market.  And he did it when the EV market didn't have any of the major players involved - now a startup, like Rivian has to deal not only with Tesla, but with Ford, GM, etc.


----------



## Yoused

Here is a thing that kind of makes my head hurt,









						PG&E will pilot bidirectional electric car charging in California
					

Ford and General Motors are both working with PG&E on trials.




					arstechnica.com
				




When the lights go out, flip your circuits to power your house off the car. Probably just the fridge and one or two essentials (I have a nice battery-powered lamp that even gets a bit of use on good days). Would you do this, in a pinch?


----------



## Apple fanboy

Yoused said:


> Here is a thing that kind of makes my head hurt,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PG&E will pilot bidirectional electric car charging in California
> 
> 
> Ford and General Motors are both working with PG&E on trials.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arstechnica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the lights go out, flip your circuits to power your house off the car. Probably just the fridge and one or two essentials (I have a nice battery-powered lamp that even gets a bit of use on good days). Would you do this, in a pinch?



Absolutely. It makes sense. As long as you know where the nearest chargers are that are still working of course.


----------



## Eric

Yoused said:


> Here is a thing that kind of makes my head hurt,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PG&E will pilot bidirectional electric car charging in California
> 
> 
> Ford and General Motors are both working with PG&E on trials.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arstechnica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the lights go out, flip your circuits to power your house off the car. Probably just the fridge and one or two essentials (I have a nice battery-powered lamp that even gets a bit of use on good days). Would you do this, in a pinch?



Most EVs are coming with that ability now but Tesla isn't one of them, unfortunately.

As for PG&E I have a hard time thinking they'll ever do something for the greater good, they're flat out evil here in CA. They're about to hike their rates up another 18% for both gas and electric and will stop paying for power fed back to the grid from homeowners with solar power.


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> Most EVs are coming with that ability now but Tesla isn't one of them, unfortunately.
> 
> As for PG&E I have a hard time thinking they'll ever do something for the greater good, they're flat out evil here in CA. They're about to hike their rates up another 18% for both gas and electric and will stop paying for power fed back to the grid from homeowners with solar power.



I’m surprised that the government allows them to refuse the feedback into the grid. Public utilities are beholden to the state who allow their existence as an exception to monopoly laws. Seems like people could complain to the government and perhaps get that remedied. But I’m never sure about California. Fox News always says it‘s full of liberals, but they had Reagan and Schwarzenegger as governors….


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> Most EVs are coming with that ability now but Tesla isn't one of them, unfortunately.
> 
> As for PG&E I have a hard time thinking they'll ever do something for the greater good, they're flat out evil here in CA. They're about to hike their rates up another 18% for both gas and electric and will stop paying for power fed back to the grid from homeowners with solar power.



That’s shocking. If I wasn’t paid for energy I was feeding back, I’d make sure I didn’t send any back at all!


----------



## SuperMatt

Apple fanboy said:


> That’s shocking. If I wasn’t paid for energy I was feeding back, I’d make sure I didn’t send any back at all!



Right? I cannot believe such theft would be legal.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> I’m surprised that the government allows them to refuse the feedback into the grid. Public utilities are beholden to the state who allow their existence as an exception to monopoly laws. Seems like people could complain to the government and perhaps get that remedied. But I’m never sure about California. Fox News always says it‘s full of liberals, but they had Reagan and Schwarzenegger as governors….



They are just another corporation and while they still have to deal with state regulations they mostly do whatever they want and just pay penalties. They have always sucked billions from consumers while paying their executive staff insane amounts of money and refusing to upgrade their dated and shitty infrastructure, leading to more fires and litigation due to climate change.

By and large the big cities are liberal but as soon as you get out of them it's mostly conservative, lot's of white people in trucks beating their chests to Trump and making the most of their white entitlement.


----------



## DT

More fuckery from our idiot/racist/sexist/homophobic governor ...









						Breaking: Florida governor Ron DeSantis vetoes awful solar net metering bill
					

Florida's governor has vetoed a bill that would have slashed rooftop solar net metering, which the majority of all Floridians support.




					electrek.co


----------



## SuperMatt

DT said:


> More fuckery from our idiot/racist/sexist/homophobic governor ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breaking: Florida governor Ron DeSantis vetoes awful solar net metering bill
> 
> 
> Florida's governor has vetoed a bill that would have slashed rooftop solar net metering, which the majority of all Floridians support.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> electrek.co



The Sunshine Police State



> After Nevada gutted its net metering program, it experienced a significant loss of jobs and businesses. The SEIA reports that two weeks after Nevada enacted its legislation, for example, a major rooftop solar company announced it would cease operations in the state and eliminate 550 jobs. The following year, the Nevada legislature voted to reinstate net metering due to the significant loss in jobs and economic impact, along with immense public outcry.



Which tells me DeSantis is done with Florida and laser-focused on national office. He has to make some culture-war statements to show he is Trump 2: Electric Boogaloo, regardless of the effects on his constituents.


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> The Sunshine Police State
> 
> 
> *Which tells me DeSantis is done with Florida and laser-focused on national office*. He has to make some culture-war statements to show he is Trump 2: Electric Boogaloo, regardless of the effects on his constituents.




I think you're 1000% correct.


----------



## Citysnaps

SuperMatt said:


> The Sunshine Police State
> 
> 
> Which tells me DeSantis is done with Florida and laser-focused on national office. He has to make some culture-war statements to show he is Trump 2: Electric Boogaloo, regardless of the effects on his constituents.




Will be interesting to see how DeSantis squares his relationship with trump. And should trump run again, how that plays out.  Vlad's work isn't finished yet, and he needs a friendly in the White House; So many former Soviet republics, so little time.


----------



## DT

Thought this might be interesting, this is my stats from yesterday,  it was like 75/25 mixed highway/city, ~55-58°, 3 passengers, driving pretty freely, i.e., accelerating when it was fun, cruising casually other times, a typical mix.  Home to Ikea, Ikea to a close restaurant we decided to bail on, that place to where we did eat (which was awesome) and from there back home (that's the 4 lines of "driving activity" on each chart).


----------



## DT

The Wh/mi is an important metric, that's watt hours per mile, and it's a good general efficiency/consumption, where you can see the lower the better.   For reference, our car has an 82kW battery, that's 82,000 watts, so at 285 watts used per mile:

82,000 / 285 = ~288 miles of range, with a car that's rated to be 315, so that's pretty solid (that's the 90% efficiency, which is based on model/trim rated range vs. real time calculated range0


----------



## rdrr

DT said:


> Thought this might be interesting, this is my stats from yesterday,  it was like 75/25 mixed highway/city, ~55-58°, 3 passengers, driving pretty freely, i.e., accelerating when it was fun, cruising casually other times, a typical mix.  Home to Ikea, Ikea to a close restaurant we decided to bail on, that place to where we did eat (which was awesome) and from there back home (that's the 4 lines of "driving activity" on each chart).
> 
> 
> View attachment 12446
> View attachment 12445



Is an app or stats from the auto manufacturer?


----------



## DT

rdrr said:


> Is an app or stats from the auto manufacturer?




The stats are from our Tesla, it stores a ton of data when you drive it, I didn't show it, but even things like air temp, speed, etc.  The really cool thing is the data is available through a public API, so 3rd party systems can access it as well (with proper authentication).  Those screens are specifically from an app called Tessie, which is pretty fantastic, it does everything the OEM app does, plus has more extensive analytics and it also allows integration with automations.  So I've got voice commands on my watch, that let me do things like open in the trunk when my hands are full


----------



## Joe




----------



## quagmire

Model 3 and Y just went up another $3,000…..


----------



## SuperMatt

quagmire said:


> Model 3 and Y just went up another $3,000…..



I saw that they are offering months-earlier delivery dates if you pay $12K for full self driving mode.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> I saw that they are offering months-earlier delivery dates if you pay $12K for full self driving mode.



All anyone has to do is watch their local dealerships and they'll likely be able to get the 3 or Y within a day or two. Even if it comes with FSD you can then have it removed at time of purchase, that's what I did.

Word is out an how crappy FSD is, nobody wants it.


----------



## DT

Wow, the X Plaid went up a bunch ($12.5K), just as I was thinking about us moving, selling the Jeep and Model 3 and getting an X as a single vehicle 

It does actually normalize the price difference between X LR / S LR and their respective Plaid flavors, the S used to be almost 2x the price jump even though the upgrade is more or less the same between the two.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Email from BMW today. Due to the situation in the Ukraine , my order is delayed. So who knows when I’ll see my car.


----------



## Eric

Apple fanboy said:


> Email from BMW today. Due to the situation in the Ukraine , my order is delayed. So who knows when I’ll see my car.



Sorry to hear that, was it really customized? I ask because you may be able to look locally and see if they have something similar on a local lot and maybe transfer your order.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> Sorry to hear that, was it really customized? I ask because you may be able to look locally and see if they have something similar on a local lot and maybe transfer your order.



There’s nothing I’m afraid. I’d ordered with a number of options. Leather interior and reversing camera. The only models they have seem to be the base model.


----------



## Apple fanboy

So June or July for the new car 
Apparently the wiring loms come from the Ukraine.


----------



## Clix Pix

June or July?!!!!!  Agggh, that has to be frustrating!!!!


----------



## quagmire

Clix Pix said:


> June or July?!!!!!  Agggh, that has to be frustrating!!!!




Seems par of the course for cars these days though seems like the issue for Apple Fanboy's delay is Ukraine. 

My mom ordered the Model Y back in October with the current estimate being June for delivery.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Clix Pix said:


> June or July?!!!!!  Agggh, that has to be frustrating!!!!



Indeed. Production was due to end in July, so I might not see my new car.


----------



## Apple fanboy

quagmire said:


> Seems par of the course for cars these days though seems like the issue for Apple Fanboy's delay is Ukraine.
> 
> My mom ordered the Model Y back in October with the current estimate being June for delivery.



My boss picked up his model Y today. Can’t remember when he ordered it, but it was a while back.


----------



## Eric

Apple fanboy said:


> My boss picked up his model Y today. Can’t remember when he ordered it, but it was a while back.



They're pretty easy to get from local dealerships because a lot of people cancel, so you can watch for them to come available online and then just transfer your order and go pick it up that day and likely have it close to what you originally asked for with features, etc.. 

It's one of the benefits of pre-orders I guess, if you back out you're out the $250 but you can walk away. They go really fast but it's a great way to pick it up right away.


----------



## BigMcGuire

My wife drives 110 miles every other day for college. We had a day where thanks to traffic on the 10, she got to college late and all the charging stations were full - (at 8:30am) - and we weren’t able to charge at college - and had to use the car for a ~60 mile trip in between college days. Resulted in 40 miles left on the car.

Definitely feeling the slow charging at home… (4-5mi/hr). (Nearest supercharger is a 15 min drive away).

Definitely a bit different than a gas car. But we’re not complaining - just noticing the difference. Lol. Too bad it’s $3k+ to install an EV charger where we live (and owner doesn’t want to pay part of it).


----------



## Eric

BigMcGuire said:


> My wife drives 110 miles every other day for college. We had a day where thanks to traffic on the 10, she got to college late and all the charging stations were full - (at 8:30am) - and we weren’t able to charge at college - and had to use the car for a ~60 mile trip in between college days. Resulted in 40 miles left on the car.
> 
> Definitely feeling the slow charging at home… (4-5mi/hr). (Nearest supercharger is a 15 min drive away).
> 
> Definitely a bit different than a gas car. But we’re not complaining - just noticing the difference. Lol. Too bad it’s $3k+ to install an EV charger where we live (and owner doesn’t want to pay part of it).



When I was shopping around I found that unless you were able to install it directly around the circuit box it was anywhere between $3k and $5K, mostly because of that specifically expensive wire they need to run. Is it that your landlord won't help, or won't allow it? Depending on how long you expect to live there it may be a worthwhile investment that would likely pay for itself eventually (especially compared to recent gas prices), it will offer a ton of convenience at 30 MPH or so.


----------



## BigMcGuire

Eric said:


> When I was shopping around I found that unless you were able to install it directly around the circuit box it was anywhere between $3k and $5K, mostly because of that specifically expensive wire they need to run. Is it that your landlord won't help, or won't allow it? Depending on how long you expect to live there it may be a worthwhile investment that would likely pay for itself eventually (especially compared to recent gas prices), it will offer a ton of convenience at 30 MPH or so.



Landlord said we could install it if we wanted but we’re not sure if we’re staying here more than a year and a $3k investment on a rental property …. Ehhh — we’ll take trips to the Supercharger if we need to (we didn’t need to this time) lol. So we’re doing ok.

Yeah the circuit breaker is upstairs around a corner - that’s where most of the cost comes from. That and the 20 drywall repair holes they said they’d have to do. My friend has a Tesla home charger - he let me charge at his house when we went on that road trip - would be so cool to charge my car completely in a handful of hours (vs 25+ lol). But hey, we’re happy. Very happy.

Other charging is free (at UCLA). 

One thing for sure, we really underestimated the amount of driving we did (when we went from 2 cars to 1). (It’s working tho!)


----------



## cloudflare420

Subaru Solterra reviews are trickling out. Seems like a decent around-town EV.

The charging speed is a huge letdown though. 100kW peak speeds. They're saying nearly an hour to get to 80%. On-board charger only does 6.6 kW too


----------



## SuperMatt

cloudflare420 said:


> Subaru Solterra reviews are trickling out. Seems like a decent around-town EV.
> 
> The charging speed is a huge letdown though. 100kW peak speeds. They're saying nearly an hour to get to 80%. On-board charger only does 6.6 kW too



I had a Subaru for 15 years, and would have bought another but decided to go EV. If they had an EV 6 years ago, I probably would have stuck with the brand.


----------



## cloudflare420

SuperMatt said:


> I had a Subaru for 15 years, and would have bought another but decided to go EV. If they had an EV 6 years ago, I probably would have stuck with the brand.




Yeah, Subarus are insanely popular where I grew up. You're supposed to own an Outback (with a Labrador in the back) at some point of your life 

I'm sure the loyalists will flock to this EV but they need to work on the powertrain


----------



## throAU

Tempted to buy an EV at the moment.


Locally, i could order a model 3 (for example, not set on model 3, but just for comparison figures) for 70k AUD on the road.
I pay approximately $5000-6000 /yr in fuel with my current vehicle.  A model 3, assuming it had similar range would cost me about 1/4 that in electricity if i was to use public charging, 1/8th if i charged at home.
I pay around $1000 in servicing per year with the current vehicle
I can “salary sacrifice” finance for it through employer, so it comes out of my pay pre-tax which might save me say 25-30% (maybe more) as it is pre-tax (i.e., i get the full benefit of the dollars to pay it off pre-tax rather than the 60-70c i get after tax to spend).
Residual values appear to be strong here - 2019 model 3s are still approximately 60k
So.  Assuming the car is worth lets say 35k (50%) over 5 years, i’d save say 25-30k in fuel costs alone over 5 years even at current values (assuming they don’t go up).  Essentially, i’d be spending 70k to have something worth at least 35k + 25k in fuel savings by the end of the loan, plus as it would come out pre-tax the net impact to my income would be less than the 70k+ interest.  What i’m getting at is that the fuel savings plus the fact i can pay for the car pre-tax may actually make very little dent in my after-tax income when fuel cost is taken into account.

The problem?  Current car is a sedan based ute (think something like the El Camino for the US people).  i want something with a tray that isn’t 4-5 feet off the ground to load motorcycles into.

I guess i could keep the ute for that, but that’s yet another vehicle in the garage…. first world problems i know… but damn, why can’t someone build a useful EV that can carry stuff that isn’t on stilts so you can’t actually ride stuff up into it or lift above your head to load it??



edit:
Actually interested to see the new Kia EV6.  It has similar range to the Tesla and we actually have Kia dealers in the country; i’d perhaps feel a little less concerned about customer service with a local dealer network.


----------



## DT

@throAU 

That employer financed option is a pretty sweet deal (I guess if you leave their employment it rolls over into some kind of traditional finance?)

What you might think about is an EV with a decent tow capacity, and a small trailer, looks like there are aluminum ride up options for 3, 400-ish so pounds, can handle 2K lbs total, so a max towing requirement of ~2500 lbs (assuming heavier bikes, you might be talking about light offroad bikes).

The VW ID.4 can do 2700 in AWD, the Tesla Model Y has a pretty stout 3500 lb capacity, etc.


----------



## throAU

yeah not keen on a trailer. it’s just more space; there’s only the two of us and no plans for kids

the ev selection here in australia is still pretty limited too.  maybe need to wait for some other stuff to hit the market. but damn.  the figures look like a no brainer if emotions are taken out of it.


and yeah the bikes are super sports or dirt.  heaviest bike would be well under 450lb wet


----------



## Eric

That's dedication.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/comments/tnen4j


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> That's dedication.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/comments/tnen4j
> 
> View attachment 12654



Skirting boards could do with a gloss.


----------



## DT

throAU said:


> yeah not keen on a trailer. it’s just more space; there’s only the two of us and no plans for kids
> 
> the ev selection here in australia is still pretty limited too.  maybe need to wait for some other stuff to hit the market. but damn.  the figures look like a no brainer if emotions are taken out of it.
> 
> 
> and yeah the bikes are super sports or dirt.  heaviest bike would be well under 450lb wet




Yeah, a trailer is sort of its own set of issues (plus storage when it's not in use).  I definitely get that, I was considering a little utility trailer for a while, but it would just be in the way 90% of the time.


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> Skirting boards could do with a gloss.




Sure, per the post it's a WIP


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> Sure, per the post it's a WIP



I’ll let it slide then……


----------



## lizkat

Apple fanboy said:


> I’ll let it slide then……




I bet the mice aren't letting it slide.   There aren't even any trim boards yet on that far wall.

Aside from that though, I've never seen a garage so...   empty.


----------



## DT

Have you seen the garages when they paint (or maybe it's vinyl) a Supercharger around their charger, hahaha, wow, that's serious commitment


----------



## Apple fanboy

lizkat said:


> I bet the mice aren't letting it slide.   There aren't even any trim boards yet on that far wall.
> 
> Aside from that though, I've never seen a garage so...   empty.



Mine certainly isn’t!


----------



## Apple fanboy

So looks like my i3 has a production slot once again! Yay! So where as I was getting it mid April, it’s now going to be late May early June. But at least it’s coming….


----------



## DT

Oh, that's not too bad, especially in the current market with months of delays on new vehicles.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> Oh, that's not too bad, especially in the current market with months of delays on new vehicles.



Agreed. But still feels like a long time away! Especially every time I’m at the petrol pump feeding the Golf another £100.


----------



## Eric

JFC…


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/comments/tvd4ps


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> JFC…
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/comments/tvd4ps



I can’t believe that happens so often.


----------



## BigMcGuire

Eric said:


> JFC…
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/comments/tvd4ps



I don't get this. At the LA Natural History Museum - they offer free charging and 5-6 (from what I could see) charging stations - nice level 2 chargers. Of course, saw one of the few electrical charging spots available taken by an F250. There were spots elsewhere so this had to be an intentional choice to park as they were well marked.


----------



## Eric

BigMcGuire said:


> I don't get this. At the LA Natural History Museum - they offer free charging and 5-6 (from what I could see) charging stations - nice level 2 chargers. Of course, saw one of the few electrical charging spots available taken by an F250. There were spots elsewhere so this had to be an intentional choice to park as they were well marked.



I think there are a couple of factors at play, first is if it's public parking they can't really prevent them from being used by anyone. The other is that people who drive these large trucks tend to be total assholes with a sense of entitlement and a chip on their shoulders, throw in the fact that it costs them $5 just to cross the street and they're also pissed at those of us who don't have to pay for gas.


----------



## DT

That Model Y in that pic, needs a hitch and a couple of tow straps.  I bet with its torque and AWD it could pull some of those fuckers out of their spots


----------



## BigMcGuire

I've got nothing against pickups. I do think they look great. I grew up wanting one for most of my life... the first vehicle I ever drove was a farm F150 as a kid. Never could afford one and the one time I got to drive a Nissan Titan 5.6 as a rental-car when my own car was rear ended, I was floored how much it cost to keep that thing driving (easily 2-3x as much as my Chevy Cobalt) despite trying my best to drive conservatively. Sure sounded nice when I passed people tho. Love the sound of a good V8.

Always figured if there was a massive earthquake in LA, only the pickups would be able to get around.

As much as I understand the pissed factor, good grief. My wife and I are on the Tesla subreddits and definitely seems like Tesla hate is a rising thing (at least it appears that way). We lucked out getting our used Tesla for what we did - same used Teslas are going for $20k more now (basically same price as new) on Tesla.com.

I guess there's ***holes everywhere. Queue Space Balls quote. lol.


----------



## SuperMatt

F people who park a non-EV in the EV charging spot. They are pieces of .


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> F people who park a non-EV in the EV charging spot. They are pieces of .




Let’s get a convoy going and block all the gas station pumps with our EVs.  But let’s not pee on ourselves like those other convoy people.


----------



## DT

Lexus, the luxury automaker owned by Toyota, announced that it will reveal its first electric vehicle on Wednesday, April 20th, at 6AM ET. 






						Lexus RZ 450e
					

As the first globally available dedicated battery electric vehicle from Lexus, the new RZ marks the next step for the brand into a fully electrified future. The RZ 450e utilizes a dedicated battery-electric platform to significantly evolve vehicle performance for an exhilarating drive.




					www.lexus.com
				




Interior pic ... holy f-ing heck ... it's a yoke. 






(I guess it's an option ...)


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Lexus, the luxury automaker owned by Toyota, announced that it will reveal its first electric vehicle on Wednesday, April 20th, at 6AM ET.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lexus RZ 450e
> 
> 
> As the first globally available dedicated battery electric vehicle from Lexus, the new RZ marks the next step for the brand into a fully electrified future. The RZ 450e utilizes a dedicated battery-electric platform to significantly evolve vehicle performance for an exhilarating drive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lexus.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interior pic ... holy f-ing heck ... it's a yoke.
> 
> View attachment 13013
> 
> 
> (I guess it's an option ...)



Is there an appeal to that type of (not really a) wheel? Seems like it would take some getting used to.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> Lexus, the luxury automaker owned by Toyota, announced that it will reveal its first electric vehicle on Wednesday, April 20th, at 6AM ET.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lexus RZ 450e
> 
> 
> As the first globally available dedicated battery electric vehicle from Lexus, the new RZ marks the next step for the brand into a fully electrified future. The RZ 450e utilizes a dedicated battery-electric platform to significantly evolve vehicle performance for an exhilarating drive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lexus.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interior pic ... holy f-ing heck ... it's a yoke.
> 
> View attachment 13013
> 
> 
> (I guess it's an option ...)



If you pull it, does it take off?


----------



## Citysnaps

DT said:


> Lexus, the luxury automaker owned by Toyota, announced that it will reveal its first electric vehicle on Wednesday, April 20th, at 6AM ET.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lexus RZ 450e
> 
> 
> As the first globally available dedicated battery electric vehicle from Lexus, the new RZ marks the next step for the brand into a fully electrified future. The RZ 450e utilizes a dedicated battery-electric platform to significantly evolve vehicle performance for an exhilarating drive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lexus.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interior pic ... holy f-ing heck ... it's a yoke.
> 
> View attachment 13013
> 
> 
> (I guess it's an option ...)




I'm confused. Is car yoke rotation restricted to -45 degrees to +45 degrees, to turn its front wheels from full left to full right? Or can the yoke rotate 2-3 revolutions like a regular car?


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Is there an appeal to that type of (not really a) wheel? Seems like it would take some getting used to.




I guess the idea is less obstruction of the dash/window, keeping your hands at a more "correct" driving position, and being easier to position since it doesn't collide with your legs.

But ...



citypix said:


> I'm confused. Is car yoke rotation restricted to -45 degrees to +45 degrees, to turn its front wheels from full left to full right? Or can the yoke rotate 2-3 revolutions like a regular car?




Well, right, I've driven some dedicated track cars with a yoke, and they have high ratio steering, very responsive, to the point of not being a good idea for a street car.

The issue with the yoke on the Tesla Model S/X, is the steering ratio is consistent regardless of speed, so while it's pretty effective at higher speeds, at lower speeds, like in a parking, lot, you're having to go hand-over-hand, and you can't really shuffle steer at moderate speeds.  Even at track speeds, like the Ring runs done in the Model S Plaid, with legit drivers, they got a little crossed up trying to correct.

The ideal implementation would be to dynamically adjust the ratio, so around a parking lot the wheel to wheel lock wouldn't require more than like a 90° rotation (so not "over the top" where you're crossed up or need to swap hands).


----------



## thekev

DT said:


> Lexus, the luxury automaker owned by Toyota, announced that it will reveal its first electric vehicle on Wednesday, April 20th, at 6AM ET.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lexus RZ 450e
> 
> 
> As the first globally available dedicated battery electric vehicle from Lexus, the new RZ marks the next step for the brand into a fully electrified future. The RZ 450e utilizes a dedicated battery-electric platform to significantly evolve vehicle performance for an exhilarating drive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lexus.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interior pic ... holy f-ing heck ... it's a yoke.
> 
> View attachment 13013
> 
> 
> (I guess it's an option ...)





It's only a matter of time before you have KITT from Knightrider. Just be careful with the windshield wipers.


----------



## DT

thekev said:


> It's only a matter of time before you have KITT from Knightrider. Just be careful with the windshield wipers.




OMG, hahaha, I totally forgot about the interior of KITT ...






JFC, I didn't realize how much the two pics matched, hahahaha ...


----------



## thekev

DT said:


> OMG, hahaha, I totally forgot about the interior of KITT ...
> 
> View attachment 13014




It's pretty much what I think of whenever I see a Tesla. Apparently it's not just me.








						Why the Tesla Model S is the Modern Day "Knight Rider"
					

Owning a Tesla Model S is the closest anyone can get to having their very own Knight Industries Two Thousand also known as KITT. This fictional character from the popular television show in the 80’s was an artificially intelligent computing system within a highly advanced performance car. KITT...




					www.teslarati.com


----------



## DT

JFC manufacturers, you have to do better than this ...

It's two weeks out from being a year old, and you want me to pay $99 for a nav update, hahahaha, fuck right off.  At least in the Jeep we can use CP (which is better anyway), and honestly, we rarely use any kind of nav outside of Wife providing nav input directly from her phone.


----------



## thekev

DT said:


> JFC manufacturers, you have to do better than this ...
> 
> 
> View attachment 13036
> 
> It's two weeks out from being a year old, and you want me to pay $99, hahahaha, fuck right off.  At least in the Jeep we can use CP (which is better anyway), and honestly, we rarely use any kind of nav outside of Wife providing nav input directly from her phone.



They do make for a good werecar.


----------



## DT

thekev said:


> They do make for a good werecar.




I think you showed me that before, but yeah, I'd totally do that   Funny enough, the wife wouldn't care 

I am thinking about scoring the Gladiator grill/fog light inserts, they're flat black vs. gloss silver, I think it would match the rest of the trim better.


----------



## Apple fanboy

thekev said:


> They do make for a good werecar.



Where’s the duck?


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> Where’s the duck?




Ha!  They have a conspicuous lack of duck presence   I'd say 3 out 5 Wranglers around here have some duckage.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> Ha!  They have a conspicuous lack of duck presence   I'd say 3 out 5 Wranglers around here have some duckage.



Must be this guy taking out the ducks!


----------



## Hrafn

Cmaier said:


> Let’s get a convoy going and block all the gas station pumps with our EVs.  But let’s not pee on ourselves like those other convoy people.



I love that we now have to use this reminder: "remember, don't piss yourself..."


----------



## thekev

DT said:


> I think you showed me that before, but yeah, I'd totally do that   Funny enough, the wife wouldn't care
> 
> I am thinking about scoring the Gladiator grill/fog light inserts, they're flat black vs. gloss silver, I think it would match the rest of the trim better.




I used that one before, but according to Futurama, the werecar lives for another 978 years. It could probably be referenced a few more times. I probably also mentioned that Tesla is clearly responsible for the genesis of the original werecar.


----------



## DT

That Tesla knew EXACTLY what it was doing ...


----------



## thekev

DT said:


> That Tesla knew EXACTLY what it was doing ...




HONK HONK HONK!

Recall that the werecar had an electric engine, yet it still made combustion engine sounds.


----------



## AG_PhamD

I was surprised to see a Lucid Air in Chestnut Hill, MA yesterday. Poor quality picture, I wasn’t interested enough to stop and check it out up close. On paper it looks like an interesting competitor to the Model S and the reviews seem to indicate a nicer quality interior. It’ll be interesting to see how they fare versus Tesla, especially given the lack of S/C network.


----------



## DT

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1512960943805841410/


----------



## BigMcGuire

DT said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1512960943805841410/



Amazing a pd in CA is still using crown vics. But lol that made me laugh.


----------



## Herdfan

Saw an ad last night for what I guess is the new Chevy Bolt.  It includes them coming to your house and setting up your home charging port.

Got to say, seems like a brilliant marketing strategy.


----------



## AG_PhamD

Herdfan said:


> Saw an ad last night for what I guess is the new Chevy Bolt.  It includes them coming to your house and setting up your home charging port.
> 
> Got to say, seems like a brilliant marketing strategy.




Let’s hope this new model doesn’t burn your house down like the old model. 

I think it’s a smart marketing move- but even from the perspective of making installations cheaper (obviously the cost is built into the cost of the car). I’ve heard outrageous prices and wait times for home EV charger installs, particularly during the pandemic when getting any home-related work done was extremely competitive and costly. I would assume GM would hire x-number of electricians to install chargers full time for them. 

I suppose the question is what the limits are for installations and if they charge for work beyond their standard install or refuse it all together. Clearly the amount of work required to install a charger varies greatly. 

Unfortunately, the Bolt in my opinion remains one of the most unappealing EV’s on the market- granted for $32k and 260 miles that’s a good value- granted I suppose the small size helps attain that range.  This new version version doesn’t look as cheap as the original, but it’s still not particularly attractive. The Bolt has never been a particularly hot seller like all “cheap” EV’s, but I suspect it will be soon outcompeted by more compelling EVs.


----------



## Eric

AG_PhamD said:


> Let’s hope this new model doesn’t burn your house down like the old model.
> 
> I think it’s a smart marketing move- but even from the perspective of making installations cheaper (obviously the cost is built into the cost of the car). I’ve heard outrageous prices and wait times for home EV charger installs, particularly during the pandemic when getting any home-related work done was extremely competitive and costly. I would assume GM would hire x-number of electricians to install chargers full time for them.
> 
> I suppose the question is what the limits are for installations and if they charge for work beyond their standard install or refuse it all together. Clearly the amount of work required to install a charger varies greatly.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Bolt in my opinion remains one of the most unappealing EV’s on the market- granted for $32k and 260 miles that’s a good value- granted I suppose the small size helps attain that range.  This new version version doesn’t look as cheap as the original, but it’s still not particularly attractive. The Bolt has never been a particularly hot seller like all “cheap” EV’s, but I suspect it will be soon outcompeted by more compelling EVs.



Like anything I have done in my home I always get multiple estimates and the charger varied from $1500 to $450 for the exact same work, it pays to shop around.


----------



## DT

Oh wow lots of neat EVs being shown at the big NYC Auto Show!









						Homepage - New York International Auto Show
					

New and exciting exhibits will be showcased with the very best that the automobile industry has to offer in an exciting and unique way. With the largest electric vehicle test track ever created at an auto show we’re embracing one of New York’s core beliefs that bigger is better and bringing...




					autoshowny.com
				





That would be cool to see … oh, wait …


----------



## cloudflare420

Two new EVs were shown off today





__





						BMW unveils i7 electric car with over 300 miles of range and a less polarizing design
					

BMW has unveiled its latest electric car, the BMW i7, as part of the next-generation 7 Series. The new electric car will offer over 300 miles of range and a design closer to BMW’s more traditional look. After almost a decade of not releasing new electric vehicles, BMW has been on a tear lately...




					electrek.co
				




*BMW i7*













						Lexus finally reveals its all-electric RZ 450e SUV
					

Lexus’ first-ever EV has an estimated 225-mile range.




					www.theverge.com
				




*Lexus RZ*


----------



## DT

Dupe'ing the NY Auto Show part of my post from the "Vacation location ..." thread   We happen to be in NYC during the show so we popped in Sunday afternoon for an hour or so!

***

Also, amazing timing, the New York Auto Show was this past weekend!  We went 6 years ago by design, this time, just happen to be there   And it was super close, 3 avenues away, so off we went, and it was some unexpected fun!

Snapped a few pics, won't post too many here (maybe in a car thread), but some neat stuff, I mostly was interested in the EV presence (notably missing was both Lucid and Rivian).


Upcoming VW Bus/Van, aka the ID.Buzz electric.

View attachment 13360


Some mind blowing displays, the background and most of the floor was LCD panels, so everything was in motion!  This was the huge Subaru exhibit (the vehicle is their new EV), they had rope bridges ... and "snow" falling from the ceiling 


View attachment 13362

And I love all the EV trucks on the way, that's the next major market to get into ZEV technology, and I have to say from a design standpoint, liked the Chevy better than the Ford, the latter is clean, and very nice, the Chevy has a little more EV character.


View attachment 13363

***


----------



## DT

Kia EV 9, really like this design, it's got a bit of the Hyundai Ioniq 5 design language, and there were several companies offering this sort of flat/matte paint finish.






As mentioned above, the Ioniq 5, Hyundai and Kia both had a huge presence at the show, Hyundai had an indoor test track and EV tech was definitely a big part of their presence.






And this is Vinfast who's going to be a notable player, they're a Vietnamese company, who are opening a $2B manufacturing plant in North Carolina, this is their top of the line SUV product, the VF9 (they have a number of products across a wide price/performance range.


----------



## DT

Chevy Corvette AWD hybrid coming next year, electric version to follow​GM President Mark Reuss confirmed, shared hybrid video​









						Chevy Corvette AWD hybrid coming next year, electric version to follow
					

GM President Mark Reuss drops a bunch of Corvette news with a trailer. Hybrid, all-wheel-drive Corvette arrives next year, EV after.




					www.autoblog.com


----------



## quagmire

Hopefully that reduces demand for the Z06 so when it comes time, I can grab one.


----------



## DT

We are off tomorrow, on another adventure, Universal for an extra long weekend, taking the BEV, and just wanted to suggest again, this superb planning software (which I've used for this destination a number of times):






						ABRP
					






					abetterrouteplanner.com
				




That's the big route, stop, cost, manager, it's excellent, uses real data from actual vehicles, the free plan is pretty awesome, haven't felt the need to go paid plan so far.

And this app is stellar to sort of "fill in the gaps" on ABRP, this is more localized, with social network type features, sharing charger experiences, photos, clarifying prices, access, etc.:









						PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge
					

Find EV charging stations with PlugShare’s map of over 610,000 electric vehicle charging stations! Charging tips, reviews and photos from the EV community.



					www.plugshare.com


----------



## SuperMatt

I saw an Ioniq5 on the road today. Reminds me more of a station wagon than an SUV. Later I also saw a Jaguar I-Pace in a parking lot. That’s a pretty nice looking car, but it isn’t any more impressive than the Ford Mustang EV, at least at first glance.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> We are off tomorrow, on another adventure, Universal for an extra long weekend, taking the BEV, and just wanted to suggest again, this superb planning software (which I've used for this destination a number of times):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABRP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abetterrouteplanner.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the big route, stop, cost, manager, it's excellent, uses real data from actual vehicles, the free plan is pretty awesome, haven't felt the need to go paid plan so far.
> 
> And this app is stellar to sort of "fill in the gaps" on ABRP, this is more localized, with social network type features, sharing charger experiences, photos, clarifying prices, access, etc.:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge
> 
> 
> Find EV charging stations with PlugShare’s map of over 610,000 electric vehicle charging stations! Charging tips, reviews and photos from the EV community.
> 
> 
> 
> www.plugshare.com



I’ve checked on all of these and ABRP looks great a long with Zap-Map. If only the car would arrive. Latest era 22/07/22.


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> I saw an Ioniq5 on the road today. Reminds me more of a station wagon than an SUV. Later I also saw a Jaguar I-Pace in a parking lot. That’s a pretty nice looking car, but it isn’t any more impressive than the Ford Mustang EV, at least at first glance.




Heck, I haven't seen one out in the wild yet, or an EV6 (the "sister" car), though I looked at a number of them at the NYC, even sat in one - plus several were zipping around the inside track, which is a super cool thing that EVs can do vs. having to use an outdoor track.

I guess I'd almost call it a hatchback[?]  It's not very SUV-ish, I guess in current parlance it's kind of a crossover.  I really liked the mix of overall size, height, it's roomy while not being a rolling behemoth.  Interior is pretty cool, a couple of odd design choices - I love that companies are following the lighter interior color trend, see my photo below 

Hahaha, this couple had been sitting in this one for a while, so I finally just jumped in the back seat and yelled, "HEY!  WHERE ARE WE GOING!?!?!", scared the hell out of them


----------



## Apple fanboy

SuperMatt said:


> I saw an Ioniq5 on the road today. Reminds me more of a station wagon than an SUV. Later I also saw a Jaguar I-Pace in a parking lot. That’s a pretty nice looking car, but it isn’t any more impressive than the Ford Mustang EV, at least at first glance.



My colleague has an i-Pace. Very nice car, especially the interior.


----------



## SuperMatt

Apple fanboy said:


> My colleague has an i-Pace. Very nice car, especially the interior.



Good point - I didn’t take the time to inspect the interior...


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> Good point - I didn’t take the time to inspect the interior...




It's fine, it's got some displays, a bunch of buttons, a scatter-shot of design language (some wasted space for the sake of being "design-y").  The Mach-E has a better interior in terms of general functional design, it just needs a landscape orientation on the display (that also kills the Explorer, I cross shopped an Explorer ST for a few weeks).


----------



## Citysnaps

DT said:


> Heck, I haven't seen one out in the wild yet, or an EV6 (the "sister" car), though I looked at a number of them at the NYC, even sat in one - plus several were zipping around the inside track, which is a super cool thing that EVs can do vs. having to use an outdoor track.
> 
> I guess I'd almost call it a hatchback[?]  It's not very SUV-ish, I guess in current parlance it's kind of a crossover.  I really liked the mix of overall size, height, it's roomy while not being a rolling behemoth.  Interior is pretty cool, a couple of odd design choices - I love that companies are following the lighter interior color trend, see my photo below
> 
> Hahaha, this couple had been sitting in this one for a while, so I finally just jumped in the back seat and yelled, "HEY!  WHERE ARE WE GOING!?!?!", scared the hell out of them
> 
> 
> View attachment 13608





We're still thinking about one. Trouble is they're scarce right now. And if there's one available count on $5K+ of ADM. I can wait.

_"Hahaha, this couple had been sitting in this one for a while, so I finally just jumped in the back seat and yelled, "HEY!  WHERE ARE WE GOING!?!?!", scared the hell out of them"_

I do a pretty good (20 years ago) Bobcat Goldthwait. I think that would also work.


----------



## DT

I hear ya, I just can't do ADM on anything.  It's not even the price in itself, it's just the idea of paying an extra fee, on something like a car, or a video game console, or concert ticket, it conflicts with something in my DNA.


----------



## Citysnaps

DT said:


> I hear ya, I just can't do ADM on anything.  It's not even the price in itself, it's just the idea of paying an extra fee, on something like a car, or a video game console, or concert ticket, it conflicts with something in my DNA.




Same here. No way I'll do it. Even if the end result is a good price. I don't even want to do business with a dealer who's pulled that nonsense in the past when the price eventually comes down to MSRP in the future.


----------



## Apple fanboy

So my BMW i3 still isn’t here. 
July is the latest estimate. 
However I’m now finding out the standard 10” display they’ve been shipping with since 2017 has been replaced with a 6.5” one. Surround sound speakers are also likely to be MIA. So all in all I’m thinking of going approved used and buy an extended warranty with the money I save. 
Thoughts?


----------



## Clix Pix

That sounds like a good idea, AFB;  at least check around, see what's available and re-evaluate the options you had earlier chosen for the new i3 so that if some are not available on the used car you'll know what you can live without, as opposed to the ones you MUST have.      Such a disappointment, though, for you, especially after all this time of waiting.....   Good thing you've learned about these new changes now in the waning days of the i3 manufacturing so that you've got time to assess and maybe wait a little for just the right gently-used one to become available.   And, yes, buying an extended warranty on a used/slightly older i3 would be a very wise decision.


----------



## DT

This is super fun, and pretty big news!









						Volkswagen Group to launch all-electric pick-up and rugged SUV in the United States
					

Volkswagen Group will launch an all-electric pick-up and rugged SUV in the United States. The decision of the Board of Management was confirmed today by the Supervisory Board of the Volkswagen Group.




					www.volkswagen-newsroom.com
				





Volkswagen Group plans to electrify iconic U.S.-brand Scout
Independent company to be founded to design, engineer, and manufacture pick-up and rugged SUV (R-SUV) for the U.S. market
Start of production planned for 2026
Herbert Diess, CEO: “Electrification provides a historic opportunity to now enter the highly attractive pick-up and R-SUV segment as a Group, underscoring our ambition to become a relevant player in the U.S. market.”

We had a Scout in the 70s, icon red with white top, it had manually locking front hubs, so if you didn't do it in advance, you were out in the mud 

I didn't even realize that VW owned the brand/name of Scout, but here's the history:



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> In September 2021, a report by _Motor Trend_ reveled that Volkswagen Group may look to revive the Scout nameplate as a potential competitor to the Jeep Wrangler, Toyota 4Runner, and the revived Ford Bronco. VW Group had acquired the Scout trademarks earlier in the year when its commercial truck business Traton acquired Navistar. As VW Group is unlikely to acquire the International Harvester trademarks from Case IH even for a licensing deal, a revived Scout would either be sold under the Volkswagen nameplate as a sub-brand similar to the aforementioned Bronco or as a standalone off-road themed brand similar to Jeep; both options would use VW's existing dealership network in the United States.[11]




Several weeks ago, we were at Universal, and I was walking back from the __secret__chargers__ and I saw this one on a trailer, it was fully restored, looked showroom mint:


----------



## Apple fanboy

So update on my BMW i3. Dealer still hasn't confirmed that I'm getting a delivery and what equipment it will have. Its very unlikely to have the standard 10" screen (no cars have since March), very likely to be missing the rear speakers and possibly even Apple CarPlay.

So I have been searching for a gently used model. Think I've found a good one. Off to view it in the morning. Around a £7,000 saving on what it would have been new. Mrs AFB (and probably me) prefer the colour TBH which is another added bonus.


----------



## Herdfan

Apple fanboy said:


> So all in all I’m thinking of going *approved used* and buy an extended warranty with the money I save.
> Thoughts?




Is that your version of a CPO (Certified Pre-Owned)?  If so, then yes.

The last 4 European cars we have bought (2 Land Rovers, 1 Volvo and 1 Mercedes) were all CPO's.  And in 3/4 cases, I upgraded from the extra year to 3 extra years on the warranty.  The Volvo already had the 7/100 because it was 3 years old when we got it.

On the Rovers and Volvo, it goes out to 7/100 and the MB was 7/Unlimited.  Better than factory.  Three had mileage in the 20's when we bought them and one had less than 5K (it was a dealer demo and couldn't be sold as new).

Now I am not sure I would buy an Asian or American CPO, but European for sure.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Herdfan said:


> Is that your version of a CPO (Certified Pre-Owned)?  If so, then yes.
> 
> The last 4 European cars we have bought (2 Land Rovers, 1 Volvo and 1 Mercedes) were all CPO's.  And in 3/4 cases, I upgraded from the extra year to 3 extra years on the warranty.  The Volvo already had the 7/100 because it was 3 years old when we got it.
> 
> On the Rovers and Volvo, it goes out to 7/100 and the MB was 7/Unlimited.  Better than factory.  Three had mileage in the 20's when we bought them and one had less than 5K (it was a dealer demo and couldn't be sold as new).
> 
> Now I am not sure I would buy an Asian or American CPO, but European for sure.



Yes it’s the same thing by the sounds of it. The car I’m looking at this morning has 18 months warranty left and I will be looking at extending that for sure. The battery will have 6.5 years warranty left and that will probably be longer than I own the car for.


----------



## DT

Yikes.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1524830380649353216/


----------



## quagmire

And anyone that pays it just proves you don’t need to be smart to earn enough money to afford it.


----------



## DT

Experian sales numbers YTD in the US:

Tesla Model Y: 52,051
Tesla Model 3: 47,682
Tesla Model S: 9,250
Ford Mustang Mach-E: 6,957
Hyundai Ioniq 5: 6,265
Kia EV6: 4,901
Tesla Model X: 4,899
Nissan Leaf: 4,401
Kia Niro Electric: 3,549
Volkswagen ID.4: 2,926
The top two aren't even close, the S is a bit surprising, that's a different market segment vs. everything else on the list.

To be clear,  this is what manufacturers are getting out the door, not orders/demand/etc., so it makes a notable point: *manufacturers* need to step up *manufacturing*.


----------



## quagmire

The think the S is simply due it being new so everyone is upgrading, etc. It will probably settle back down to the 4,000 range like the X is once everyone who wants one, gets one. It outselling the Mach E is the surprising part.


----------



## SuperMatt

DT said:


> Experian sales numbers YTD in the US:
> 
> Tesla Model Y: 52,051
> Tesla Model 3: 47,682
> Tesla Model S: 9,250
> Ford Mustang Mach-E: 6,957
> Hyundai Ioniq 5: 6,265
> Kia EV6: 4,901
> Tesla Model X: 4,899
> Nissan Leaf: 4,401
> Kia Niro Electric: 3,549
> Volkswagen ID.4: 2,926
> The top two aren't even close, the S is a bit surprising, that's a different market segment vs. everything else on the list.
> 
> To be clear,  this is what manufacturers are getting out the door, not orders/demand/etc., so it makes a notable point: *manufacturers* need to step up *manufacturing*.



Tesla is the only company that has taken the EV market seriously. Everybody else is playing catch-up, and most of them are clearly reluctant to do anything other than sell gas-guzzling SUVs, which they see as cash cows. All it takes to beat the auto industry is a tiny bit of forward thinking. They are dinosaurs.


----------



## quagmire

I think the manufactures like GM is realizing the potential of EV's to their bottom line. 

Developing a vehicle is expensive. How many platforms does GM have? They have been spending the whole past decade to shrink as many platforms and engine families they have. 

An EV? They only really need two to three platforms..... One for cars, one for SUV's and trucks, and maybe another for the Corvette. Then they can just modulate the platforms to fit each car and SUV/truck needs. That saves them a TON of money. Increases their margins, etc. Look at Tesla. Their profit margin is now a staggering 30% or so..... They could lower their prices if they wanted to( hence why I always called their inflation reasoning BS). But why would they? Despite the Model Y increasing in price by $12,000 from last year, they still sell every one they can make and the line keeps on getting longer.


----------



## Apple fanboy

In the U.K. Tesla has opened up its charging network this week to non Tesla’s owners. It’s a phased process, but a step in the right direction.


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> In the U.K. Tesla has opened up its charging network this week to non Tesla’s owners. It’s a phased process, but a step in the right direction.




Yeah, I've been following the progress, I'm real curious about the charging/billing experience (with a Tesla it's totally transparent, you pull up, plug in, that's it).

On the flip side, Tesla has an official CCS adapter now, not released in the US yet (a few people have imported them from overseas),  but that will allow for using a non-Tesla DCFC like Electrify America (you can do this now, with a CHAdeMO, but that's a dead spec, and a good bit slower).  I think the projected retail is like $250, so I'll almost definitely score one.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> Yeah, I've been following the progress, I'm real curious about the charging/billing experience (with a Tesla it's totally transparent, you pull up, plug in, that's it).
> 
> On the flip side, Tesla has an official CCS adapter now, not released in the US yet (a few people have imported them from overseas),  but that will allow for using a non-Tesla DCFC like Electrify America (you can do this now, with a CHAdeMO, but that's a dead spec, and a good bit slower).  I think the projected retail is like $250, so I'll almost definitely score one.



You have to create a Tesla account. And your billed directly through it. 
Personally I prefer contactless payment without an account etc. but I understand a few different ones require that here.


----------



## Cmaier

Apple fanboy said:


> You have to create a Tesla account. And your billed directly through it.
> Personally I prefer contactless payment without an account etc. but I understand a few different ones require that here.




I don’t have to pay for supercharging


----------



## Apple fanboy

Cmaier said:


> I don’t have to pay for supercharging



You do. You just paid up front! 🫢


----------



## Cmaier

Apple fanboy said:


> You do. You just paid up front! 🫢




Not according to Tesla’s profit and loss statement back then


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> You have to create a Tesla account. And your billed directly through it.
> Personally I prefer contactless payment without an account etc. but I understand a few different ones require that here.




Yeah, I more or less knew that much, I'm interested in the how the process works, re: car identification, how long takes to start charging, that sort of thing.  Like does the car ID itself?  So once you have your Tesla account setup, you just plug in?  Or do you do something in the app, at the SuC?

Tesla SuCs don't have any kind of billing interface on the charger, like there's not any kind of display!  It's literally that white/red obelisk, and a charging cable.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> Yeah, I more or less knew that much, I'm interested in the how the process works, re: car identification, how long takes to start charging, that sort of thing.  Like does the car ID itself?  So once you have your Tesla account setup, you just plug in?  Or do you do something in the app, at the SuC?
> 
> Tesla SuCs don't have any kind of billing interface on the charger, like there's not any kind of display!  It's literally that white/red obelisk, and a charging cable.



This is the video I watched that told me about it.


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> This is the video I watched that told me about it.



Yes!  Perfect, that's totally explained the process.  Thanks!

My main question answered:  you select the location + stall identifier from the app.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> Yes!  Perfect, that's totally explained the process.  Thanks!
> 
> My main question answered:  you select the location + stall identifier from the app.



Well I suspect I'll be using one in the near future. Looking forward to joining the EV club in the morning.


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> Well I suspect I'll be using one in the near future. Looking forward to joining the EV club in the morning.




Yeah man, good luck with the pickup, look forward to seeing some photos!


----------



## DT

I was perusing another site, and I had to chuckle at the carefully designed anti-EV scenarios people fabricate, hahahaha ...

We're headed down the Keys in a few weeks, ~390 miles, we will stop one time for about 25 minutes after driving for 3 hours.  Grab a bite to eat, hit the road, arrive at our condo.   We head down to Orlando quite a bit, you know for a "long weekend trip", we don't stop, we could make the 260 miles on a single charge, but the resorts all have free charging, and I prefer lots of buffer, so why not plug in while in the car is just sitting in a parking garage (and get 130 miles of free juice )

This notion of hour charging stops for 100-150 mile trips is silly.


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> I was perusing another site, and I had to chuckle at the carefully designed anti-EV scenarios people fabricate, hahahaha ...
> 
> We're headed down the Keys in a few weeks, ~390 miles, we will stop one time for about 25 minutes after driving for 3 hours.  Grab a bite to eat, hit the road, arrive at our condo.   We head down to Orlando quite a bit, you know for a "long weekend trip", we don't stop, we could make the 260 miles on a single charge, but the resorts all have free charging, and I prefer lots of buffer, so why not plug in while in the car is just sitting in a parking garage (and get 130 miles of free juice )
> 
> This notion of hour charging stops for 100-150 mile trips is silly.



I'm always taking long weekend trips and have adjusted pretty well to finding my charging spots and knowing how long I need to be there, etc. I've learned that it's really not much different from getting gas, much of the time I only need to be there for 10 minutes or so (especially with preconditioning) and with the lines at a regular gas station it's almost the same.

By far the biggest benefit though is when I return home with little to no charge and can just plug in and forget about it, awesome knowing I can just get in and go with a full charge next time.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> I'm always taking long weekend trips and have adjusted pretty well to finding my charging spots and knowing how long I need to be there, etc. I've learned that it's really not much different from getting gas, much of the time I only need to be there for 10 minutes or so (especially with preconditioning) and with the lines at a regular gas station it's almost the same.
> 
> By far the biggest benefit though is when I return home with little to no charge and can just plug in and forget about it, awesome knowing I can just get in and go with a full charge next time.



Just returned from my first trip. Had enough range and got home with 25% battery left. It’s now on a slow charge on the drive. Should be done by the morning. 
The electrician still hasn’t come back to me with a date for the fast charger. 

Anyway very happy with my choice. It’s a really nice drive and better specifications than the new one I had ordered. Will post some pictures after it’s had a clean. The bugs on the motorway didn’t do the grill any favours.


----------



## DT

DT said:


> Heck, I wouldn't straight trade my M3P for an i4 M50 right now, even configured to my spec (which would be about $10K more than the MSRP on my car).






diamond.g said:


> Why not?






DT said:


> Just not really any interest.  We've owned 4 BMWs, the Tesla is something totally different.  The i4 design looks like all the other ICE 3/4 series (including weirdly unnecessary ICE design elements), the interior isn't nearly as spacious - whether that's measured or perceived it's the same to me - as our TM3 (the BMW interior retained some ICE-ish-ness, it lacks that super open canopy ratio).  I find the Tesla way more interesting, some mix of the car, performance, tech and company pushes my buttons more.   A buddy if mine, who is the in the position to get an i4 if he desired, has the same perspective.
> 
> Then the real deal killer: the (DCFC) charging network, it's not even close (at least in the US).
> 
> I definitely would consider a BMW EV in the future, like about 2 year out - which will also be a good point to determine how the charging infrastructure has developed - it's just not what I'd want right now.




This video is a terrific summary of many of my thoughts in the matter (love me some Mat Watson):


----------



## quagmire

Got a VIN for my moms Model Y.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Got a VIN for my moms Model Y.




When did she place the order?


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> When did she place the order?




October 26th.


----------



## DT

So right at about 7 months, wow.  I can't remember process (since mine took 9 days from order to driving away ), but a VIN puts it around a week or two till delivery?


----------



## DT

I knocked around this weekend on several EV sites, looked at the current offerings - which "current" still doesn't mean they're available in less than 6 months  - and in the mid-range, mid-upper performance offerings, with AWD, decent amount of tech, etc., I'm still not seeing much.

Right now, in the performance mid-market sedans, there's the Model 3 LR or P, and the BMW i4 eDrive or M50.

There's up market options from Lucid, of course the Model S, Mercedes EQS,  there's the same market space, but what amounts to a crossover/SAV/SUV/CUV in the Ioniq 6, Kia 6, Model Y (and the Ioniq certainly doesn't compete with the Performance Y, and not really the EV6 GT either).

I saw someone yapping about Tesla pricing, but in the market space the mid-upper model occupy, they're totally competitive, and there's not a ton of options at the moment.

(And of course, the lower to lower-mid market is still mostly vacant ...)


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> So right at about 7 months, wow.  I can't remember process (since mine took 9 days from order to driving away ), but a VIN puts it around a week or two till delivery?




EDD changed to May 25-29th. I suspect if that is close to being the case, we got a vehicle that was rejected or the original person couldn't take delivery for whatever reason( financial, availability to take the car, etc). Still waiting on the text to schedule delivery. 

As normally VIN assignment usually happens when the car is still in Fremont which would be about 1-2 weeks for delivery.


----------



## AG_PhamD

I had an an Uber driver the other day with a Tesla Model 3. He picked me up in the Copley Square area in Boston, right near the Tesla showroom   at the Prudential Center in fact. He said he did not have enough battery to drive me home (about 3 miles away) and that he needed to stop at a charger. I told him I’m not going to wait for him to charge and I’ll just get another Uber, no big deal. Anyways, he figured out he did have enough power and that there’s a supercharger nearby my house.

In our conversation on the way to the destination, he told me acquired the Model 3 dual motor in some sort of Uber rent-to-own scheme. He is paying $527/*week*- yes, week, not month. I clarified that twice. I suppose that’s fine if the term is like 2.5 years and included insurance, but I suspect that’s not the case. I would assume the term is at least three years ($82,000 on a $56,000 car- call it $61k with taxes and fees). 

His comment was after paying for the car and supercharging, he’s not “making much” at the end of the week.

It’s amazing companies, if they have the slightest regard for their employees, would even advertise this option given this seems awfully predatory. Why not just finance the car normally?


----------



## quagmire

And delivery set to the 28th. So car must be in my area already.


----------



## SuperMatt

AG_PhamD said:


> It’s amazing companies, if they have the slightest regard for their employees, would even advertise this option given this seems awfully predatory. Why not just finance the car normally?



This is exactly why they fought so hard to prevent their drivers from being considered employees by the state. Independent contractor? Sorry, worker protection laws don’t apply.


----------



## DT

AG_PhamD said:


> Why not just finance the car normally?




Possibly credit issues, no money for downpayment, etc.  I'm sure this "financing" he described is just wrapped up into the employment contract vs. any kind of traditional model that requires credit checks and whatnot.  I bet there's all sorts of contingencies in place where they basically get the car back, and he's paid tons of equity.

There's a company doing long-ish term rentals, that are shorter than most lease type options, and they're charging around that rate.  I'd have to check what the daily/weekly cost is through Hertz or whoever, to compare.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Fun commute to work and back. Still have 64% battery left so I’ll not charge tonight. Will charge it after my next trip to the office.  
For fun I put it in sports mode briefly. That’s some fun right there!


----------



## AG_PhamD

DT said:


> Possibly credit issues, no money for downpayment, etc.  I'm sure this "financing" he described is just wrapped up into the employment contract vs. any kind of traditional model that requires credit checks and whatnot.  I bet there's all sorts of contingencies in place where they basically get the car back, and he's paid tons of equity.
> 
> There's a company doing long-ish term rentals, that are shorter than most lease type options, and they're charging around that rate.  I'd have to check what the daily/weekly cost is through Hertz or whoever, to compare.




I mean yes- credit, downpayment issues would be the obvious barrier to traditional financing and I would assume there are contingencies. But rather than essentially paying an astronomical interest rate, maybe a $60,000 car isn’t the best choice. The crazy thing is this case was the guy said he also had another car.


----------



## AG_PhamD

DT said:


> This is super fun, and pretty big news!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Volkswagen Group to launch all-electric pick-up and rugged SUV in the United States
> 
> 
> Volkswagen Group will launch an all-electric pick-up and rugged SUV in the United States. The decision of the Board of Management was confirmed today by the Supervisory Board of the Volkswagen Group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.volkswagen-newsroom.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Volkswagen Group plans to electrify iconic U.S.-brand Scout
> Independent company to be founded to design, engineer, and manufacture pick-up and rugged SUV (R-SUV) for the U.S. market
> Start of production planned for 2026
> Herbert Diess, CEO: “Electrification provides a historic opportunity to now enter the highly attractive pick-up and R-SUV segment as a Group, underscoring our ambition to become a relevant player in the U.S. market.”
> 
> We had a Scout in the 70s, icon red with white top, it had manually locking front hubs, so if you didn't do it in advance, you were out in the mud
> 
> I didn't even realize that VW owned the brand/name of Scout, but here's the history:
> 
> 
> 
> Several weeks ago, we were at Universal, and I was walking back from the __secret__chargers__ and I saw this one on a trailer, it was fully restored, looked showroom mint:
> 
> View attachment 13917




My grandfather evidently had multiple scouts before I was born. They’re such cool cars. 

I was curious how VW ended up with the scout name until I looked it up. I had mistakenly been under the impression International Trucks (previously International Harvester) was owned by Mercedes- making it all the more baffling. But the Traton ownership makes sense now.


----------



## DT

AG_PhamD said:


> My grandfather evidently had multiple scouts before I was born. They’re such cool cars.
> 
> I was curious how VW ended up with the scout name until I looked it up. I had mistakenly been under the impression International Trucks (previously International Harvester) was owned by Mercedes- making it all the more baffling. But the Traton ownership makes sense now.




I'm going to see if I can find a pic of the one we had, we have some pics we've been meaning to put into storage (and haven't yet), and I might be able to find one


----------



## cloudflare420

Decided to put down the $300 deposit for a Lucid Air Pure today. I wonder when these will actually show up


----------



## DT

Stuff like this is super cool:









						New Zealand woman creates her own electric car for $24,000
					

Rosemary Penwarden says the vehicle, powered by home rooftop solar, has been running smoothly for three years and has thanked oil companies for the motivation




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## quagmire

Hopefully this actually turns into a production model( with slightly more sane wheels). Buick Wildcat EV Concept.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Hopefully this actually turns into a production model( with slightly more sane wheels). Buick Wildcat EV Concept.




Holy smokes!

Yeah, I see several engineering, fab, daily usability elements that won't make it to a production car, but the general foundation is pretty stunning.

The Lexus concept is a killer too (and of course, even less practical ):


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> Holy smokes!
> 
> Yeah, I see several engineering, fab, daily usability elements that won't make it to a production car, but the general foundation is pretty stunning.
> 
> The Lexus concept is a killer too (and of course, even less practical ):
> 
> View attachment 14512



I prefer the Lexus. But doesn’t look like a daily driver!


----------



## quagmire

Buick is on a roll today unveiling new EV concepts.....


----------



## Eric

Just drove past the lines at the pump near Costco and I can't tell you how awesome it is not to have to worry about getting gas anymore, especially right now. Being able to just come home, plug in and forget it takes so much of the stress out of it all.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> Just drove past the lines at the pump near Costco and I can't tell you how awesome it is not to have to worry about getting gas anymore, especially right now. Being able to just come home, plug in and forget it takes so much of the stress out of it all.



You know what's better than that? Driving to work and plugging in! I've only charged my i3 at home once so far!


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> You know what's better than that? Driving to work and plugging in! I've only charged my i3 at home once so far!




Yes, freebies!

Sometimes it doesn't add up to a lot of actual cost savings, but something about it just makes me grin.  I love when we go down to Universal, using those "secret" parking areas with free charging so the ~130 mile trip home costs zero (even if it would only be like $6 of charging costs).

If you don't mind me asking, what's your kWh (or equivalent) for electricity at home?


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Just drove past the lines at the pump near Costco and I can't tell you how awesome it is not to have to worry about getting gas anymore, especially right now. Being able to just come home, plug in and forget it takes so much of the stress out of it all.




Yeah man, even our Jeep, it's a PHEV but I've only used like 2 gallons over the last 400 or so miles, everything else was on battery (about $0.07 a mile).  Plus the convenience and time savings.

I saw a funny comparison someone did about "time cost" (i.e., ICE fueling vs. charging time):



> I plug in every other day and it takes me 10 seconds to plug and 10 seconds to unplug. Thats 20 seconds 180 days out of the year. So that would be about 60 minutes of plugging and unplugging for an entire year. If I go to gas station and spend 5 minutes (typically takes longer) once a week for the year, that's 260 minutes.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> Yes, freebies!
> 
> Sometimes it doesn't add up to a lot of actual cost savings, but something about it just makes me grin.  I love when we go down to Universal, using those "secret" parking areas with free charging so the ~130 mile trip home costs zero (even if it would only be like $6 of charging costs).
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, what's your kWh (or equivalent) for electricity at home?



20.40p/kwh. Around 25 cents I believe.


----------



## DT

We were headed to the theater on Friday, on the other side of the highway, saw a current gen Tesla Model S, not sure if it was a Plaid, but it had the 21" wheels, and then behind it about 2 or 3 cars was a Lucid - the first one I've seen in the wild (wasn't a fan of the design "on the road", but it's a terrific execution - from what I understand - on the "technical" side).


----------



## DT

Headed to The Keys, about 390 miles, we're going to stop once, right around the 1/2 point, do our supplies/groceries, and on our way in ~35 minutes (the shopping will take at least that long), ~$14, the car will be waiting, nice and cool.

I think there's __still__ people that don't get it, unless you're making Indy style pit stops, or driving some insanely long distance without stopping, it's no big deal.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> Headed to The Keys, about 390 miles, we're going to stop once, right around the 1/2 point, do our supplies/groceries, and on our way in ~35 minutes (the shopping will take at least that long), ~$14, the car will be waiting, nice and cool.
> 
> I think there's __still__ people that don't get it, unless you're making Indy style pit stops, or driving some insanely long distance without stopping, it's no big deal.



Exactly. I’d stop on a 390 mile trip if I was still driving an ICE car. Of course I’d need a couple of stops on that sort of journey. But it’s not a journey I’d often have to make.


----------



## Herdfan

Saw this guy in the wild today.  Not bad looking, but not great.


----------



## quagmire

Blazer EV


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Blazer EV




That vehicle, as it sits, is pretty sharp,  but of course range and price are major factors.

I guess a lot depends on how this plays out:





We just did a pretty decent road trip in the Tesla and it was stellar, charging was fantastic (the Superchargers off the turnpike are so convenient), that will be a big decision point about the time some of these cars (like that Blazer) are available.  What does the charging infrastructure look like.  If every Supercharger location handles non-Teslas, large charging providers like EA, EVGo, etc., continue to expand, then the charging part kind gets removed from the equation.

FWIW, the SuC in Florida City (just before you head into the Keys) had a small bank of EA chargers behind it.


----------



## cloudflare420

quagmire said:


> Blazer EV



Looks pretty cool. Did they say anything about range and power?


----------



## DT

I don't think anything has been released yet, but someone who seemed to know what they were talking about (on another site), suggested this:

$41k rwd 250 miles base model
$49k rwd 320 miles
$55k awd 310 miles
$65k awd performance 300 miles

I guess based on some existing platforms, etc.


----------



## Yoused

I drove my cousin to the airport this afternoon, and there was a vehicle behind us that had these distinctive headlights that looked like the vertical white outlines of cold capsules. I was not even aware that those things had hit the streets yet, so I had doubts about what it was and did not recognize the hood emblem. But the front was grill-less, and I could see a lot of airspace underneath the front end.

It fell too far behind, so I was never able to make a positive ID, but on my way home, I saw another one (I suppose it could have been the same one, just a different neighborhood), and this one slid past me to get on the freeway so I was able to see the name on the side.


----------



## SuperMatt

Has anybody used Turo to rent cars before? It looks similar to AirBnB. You rent cars from people in your local area.


----------



## Renzatic

Today, I read about front trunks. It was a good day.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Renzatic said:


> Today, I read about front trunks. It was a good day.



Here the get called frunks. That’s weird though as we call it a boot when it’s at the back. But a foot wouldn’t work.


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> Here the get called frunks.




They do here too   I guess not formally, but it's pretty common in the EV sector.


----------



## Renzatic

Apple fanboy said:


> Here the get called frunks. That’s weird though as we call it a boot when it’s at the back. But a foot wouldn’t work.




Why not just call them what they are? Car Storage Container Spaces?


----------



## Apple fanboy

Renzatic said:


> Why not just call them what they are? Car Storage Container Spaces?



Mine is quite small. So perhaps just charging cable retaining receptacle?


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> They do here too   I guess not formally, but it's pretty common in the EV sector.



There are lots of things where the name will change as we move away from ICE vehicles I guess. On an ice car the cover for the engine is a bonnet. I guess that’s what we should say. 
Or for you Americans, ‘what have you got under the hood? V8, V12?
Nope. A charging cable and a warning triangle!’!


----------



## Renzatic

Apple fanboy said:


> Mine is quite small. So perhaps just charging cable retaining receptacle?




It's still a storage container space, even if it is too small to be useful.


----------



## DT

This is the kind of concept work that gets attention,  so awesome:






The all electric, Ford Supervan ... hahahaha, it's ~2000HP 

Here it is running at the Goodwood FOS:


----------



## Nycturne

As someone who’s been waiting for the market to mature a little before jumping in, what are the options for the crossover market segment like the Outback currently serves, which I’ve been using for the last 8 years?

I know there’s the Solterra/bZ4X from Toyobaru, but with the range on the Solterra being around 220mi, and limited Level 3 charge rates, I am curious what else is out there for those of looking for something more wagon-like that can do some light towing (teardrop trailers) in national forest areas.

Edit: Should point out I’m not necessarily in the market right now, so upcoming vehicles are interesting as well.


----------



## DT

Looks like the Solterra supports CCS/DCFC (aka, "Level 3"), at 100 kWh max?  A little on the slower side, but it kind of depends on your use case.  I see the L2 charging from home or destination is only a max of 6.6 kWh, again, a little slow.

I think there's going to be some good offerings in this market segment in the next generation from Subaru, VW, etc., but in general it's a bit vacant (even considering ICE vehicles), when I think of that sport/wagon type vehicle, I pretty much think of Subaru.


----------



## DT

Yikes, maybe avoid that Toyobaru for a few ...









						Toyota recalls nearly 3,000 bZ4X EVs over potentially deadly wheel defect | Engadget
					

Toyota is recalling nearly 3,000 bZ4X EVs over wheel hubs that can't stop, won't stop falling off the cars at speed..




					www.engadget.com
				




This recall notice ...



> After low-mileage use, all of the hub bolts on the wheel can loosen to the point where the wheel can detach from the vehicle. *If a wheel detaches from the vehicle while driving, it could result in a loss of vehicle control, increasing the risk of a crash. *The cause of the issue and the driving patterns under which this issue could occur are still under investigation.




Hahaha, the part in bold, yeah, ya think?   

Just goes to show you, manufacturing, QA, etc., is hard, even for Toyota.


----------



## Nycturne

DT said:


> I think there's going to be some good offerings in this market segment in the next generation from Subaru, VW, etc., but in general it's a bit vacant (even considering ICE vehicles), when I think of that sport/wagon type vehicle, I pretty much think of Subaru.




Yup. It's one of the reasons I've been waiting. The Subaru Solterra and VW ID.4 are at least in the general area that I'm wanting if not a direct Outback replacement. Looks like VW will bring the ID Space Vizzion to production as the VW Aero B which would be interesting. In the luxury segment there seem to be a few options from BMW, Lexus, and Audi on the way but I'd prefer to keep it in the price range of the Solterra or ID.4 to be honest.

Oh well, mostly just curious if there's something I'm missing or should be considering if I'm willing to go further afield. I did look at the Model Y, but since then I've been less interested in pushing money Tesla's way if I can avoid it.



DT said:


> Yikes, maybe avoid that Toyobaru for a few ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toyota recalls nearly 3,000 bZ4X EVs over potentially deadly wheel defect | Engadget
> 
> 
> Toyota is recalling nearly 3,000 bZ4X EVs over wheel hubs that can't stop, won't stop falling off the cars at speed..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.engadget.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This recall notice ...




That's the other reason I kinda ask. If Subaru is going to be more dependent on Toyota going forward, and they both are seemingly noncommittal to BEVs, it might be a while.


----------



## SuperMatt

I saw one of the Kia EVs today. It looked really nice. My coworker was telling me he’s thinking of getting a Fisker once it comes out…


----------



## DT

Nycturne said:


> Yup. It's one of the reasons I've been waiting. The Subaru Solterra and VW ID.4 are at least in the general area that I'm wanting if not a direct Outback replacement. Looks like VW will bring the ID Space Vizzion to production as the VW Aero B which would be interesting. In the luxury segment there seem to be a few options from BMW, Lexus, and Audi on the way but I'd prefer to keep it in the price range of the Solterra or ID.4 to be honest.
> 
> Oh well, mostly just curious if there's something I'm missing or should be considering if I'm willing to go further afield. I did look at the Model Y, but since then I've been less interested in pushing money Tesla's way if I can avoid it.
> 
> That's the other reason I kinda ask. If Subaru is going to be more dependent on Toyota going forward, and they both are seemingly noncommittal to BEVs, it might be a while.




I really dig on the ID.4, mostly as a reaction to the design, which is course subjective, but I was able to compare - back to back at the NY Auto Show - the VW, the EV6, the Ioniq 5, I prefered the VW (though it's more of a traditional SUV vs. the Kia/Hyundai which are more crossover/CUV). 

I get the apprehension with the Tesla, don't get me wrong, our Model 3 Performance is stellar, and there's only one other car in the same category (price/performance/size) that's not quite there yet (i4 M50), plus the charging network, etc.

There are some incredibly capable towing vehicles out/coming out, but the're big, expensive, and who knows when they'll deliver.

Toyota has been very slow to move to EV, specifically BEV, they were all in on Hydrogen, and very anti- charged electric, and while there are some good, specific use cases for hydrogen, passenger vehicles are not one.


----------



## Nycturne

DT said:


> I really dig on the ID.4, mostly as a reaction to the design, which is course subjective, but I was able to compare - back to back at the NY Auto Show - the VW, the EV6, the Ioniq 5, I prefered the VW (though it's more of a traditional SUV vs. the Kia/Hyundai which are more crossover/CUV).




I got a chance to see and drive the ID.4 AWD yesterday. Three big things jumped out to me:

1) Turning radius is really good for something this big.
2) Lack of body roll on something this big (one reason I like the Outback vs the Forester).
3) I’ve been driving an anemic gas car for a decade.

Overall, I liked the handling of the thing on the road. I could really get used to regenerative braking during heavy traffic. The instrument cluster was perfectly usable, and easy to see no matter what you do with the steering wheel. The infotainment system works well enough for what I’d use it for. I’m just letting my phone take over via CarPlay anyways so it mostly just needs to not suck at that. 

The downside is that coming from a Subaru, the brake action feels very alien. I’d have to spend some time getting used to it. Same with the placement of the pedals, where the brake juts out past the gas and the gas is up against some plastic, making it a bit more awkward to move your foot between them. Also, the touch controls were just “okay”. I prefer buttons that can be used without looking at them, and these kinda get there, but physical buttons would still be an improvement. 



DT said:


> I get the apprehension with the Tesla, don't get me wrong, our Model 3 Performance is stellar, and there's only one other car in the same category (price/performance/size) that's not quite there yet (i4 M50), plus the charging network, etc.




Apprehension, not so much, but rather the more I look at the engineering decisions, I cringe. Not a fan. But the thing that eliminates them from consideration is the Model Y’s aggressive slope in the back makes using the back for larger items much more awkward than with the Outback, if the item will fit at all. Musk’s behavior just makes it easier to ignore Tesla. 



DT said:


> There are some incredibly capable towing vehicles out/coming out, but the're big, expensive, and who knows when they'll deliver.




For sure, but my towing is on the small end. The Outback isn’t exactly a champion towing vehicle either.


----------



## DT

Nycturne said:


> I got a chance to see and drive the ID.4 AWD yesterday. Three big things jumped out to me:
> 
> 1) Turning radius is really good for something this big.
> 2) Lack of body roll on something this big (one reason I like the Outback vs the Forester).
> 3) I’ve been driving an anemic gas car for a decade.




Nice, I haven't had a chance to drive one, just spent a little time in/around one at the show.

The body roll, even given the size and height, is not unsurprising - these bespoke EV platforms are basically a skateboard, with that very low deck being a significant amount of weight, so the center of gravity is exceptional (and a ratio that's nearly impossible to achieve in an ICE vehicle).  I've seen crashes/testing for Teslas  - like side exits from the road - where the car simply does not roll over, like it seems to defy the laws of physics, but of course, my perception is based on the behavior of cars with a much higher COG (it's a reason Tesla has an outstanding crash safety rating, what I'm sure will translate to other manufacturers).

I've had some fast cars - a Z06 with some weight reduction that was just around 2900# and 460rwhp (540fw) a 4th Gen Supra with ~800HP that would pull sportbikes - but the BEV performance is just nuts.  It's especially wild when you compare it to cars like the aforementioned that were loud, smelly, had zero warranty, required all sorts of launch management, the Supra had to run very expensive 100+ octane fuel.

Around town, our M3P will just quietly, fume and drama free, without any action other than pressing the go pedal, run as fast, and in most cases, faster than anything I've owned - and it does it with 4-doors, very roomy back seats, tons of storage, excellent visibility and comfort and when not at WOT, at a cost of around $0.03 a mile


----------



## Apple fanboy

So I had to drive Mrs AFB car to get petrol today. Stalled twice. Seems I've forgotten I east in an automatic! Only took a few weeks for that to kick in!


----------



## Eric

Apple fanboy said:


> So I had to drive Mrs AFB car to get petrol today. Stalled twice. Seems I've forgotten I east in an automatic! Only took a few weeks for that to kick in!



I had to drive my wife's X1 last week while mine was in the shop and was definitely thrown a bit as I haven't driven ICE in a long time, the biggest thing I noticed was how it would roll on it's own (in idle) with your foot off the breaks.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> I had to drive my wife's X1 last week while mine was in the shop and was definitely thrown a bit as I haven't driven ICE in a long time, the biggest thing I noticed was how it would roll on it's own (in idle) with your foot off the breaks.



Well there is that as well. Mostly I just noticed how much I hated putting £55 in it in petrol. Still that should keep Mrs AFB going until I can convince her we don't need a second car anymore.


----------



## Nycturne

DT said:


> Nice, I haven't had a chance to drive one, just spent a little time in/around one at the show.




Yeah, I do want to see if I can get some time on some of the competitors like the Ioniq 5 and the EV-6, but it's still not a terrible people/cargo mover with the AWD package. I wouldn't be surprised if I liked driving the Hyundai or Kia better based on what I'm seeing, but they do sacrifice cargo space. The dealers are also doing a 5-10k markup on them in my area over MSRP, making the ID.4 up to 15k cheaper for similar packages. Oof. 



DT said:


> The body roll, even given the size and height, is not unsurprising - these bespoke EV platforms are basically a skateboard, with that very low deck being a significant amount of weight, so the center of gravity is exceptional (and a ratio that's nearly impossible to achieve in an ICE vehicle).  I've seen crashes/testing for Teslas  - like side exits from the road - where the car simply does not roll over, like it seems to defy the laws of physics, but of course, my perception is based on the behavior of cars with a much higher COG (it's a reason Tesla has an outstanding crash safety rating, what I'm sure will translate to other manufacturers).




Oh, I'm not surprised by the fact that it is stable, it's just something that jumped out to me at how flat it turns, as it's been one of the complaints I've had of taller vehicles in general.


----------



## Herdfan

Apple fanboy said:


> Here the get called frunks. That’s weird though as we call it a boot when it’s at the back. But a foot wouldn’t work.


----------



## Herdfan

Not sure I 100% agree with the premise, but I do expect the Asian manufacturers to do well.









						Sorry Elon Musk. Hyundai is quietly dominating the EV race
					

The hottest things in the auto industry now come from Hyundai and Kia




					gulfnews.com


----------



## Nycturne

If you can charge 5-10k over MSRP and still sell every one you make…


----------



## Apple fanboy

So my friend just drove to Scotland and back in his VW ID3. 
He picked me up on the way. It’s 520 miles each way and lots of hills. I contemplated going in my i3 but it was easier and cheaper to share the driving.
It was a really good experience for me as I’ve never used the public charging network. There was a good selection to choose from. Twice we had to wait for a charger. First time as there was a bit of a queue at Getina. The second time because some idiot in a Porsche was charging to 100%. They had only just picked up the car. We explained as they left that 80% is the way to go. 
Mostly they could do with more chargers at the service stations. But even when we waited it was only 10-15 minutes extra. 
My favourite charging station was this one at BP 
		
		
	


	


No need to wait with all those. 
Price varied from free (issue connecting so they put it on free vend for us), to about £35. We will work out the total cost and do a comparison with our friend who drove his diesel Skoda. I think we roughly spent a quarter of what he did. He was very anti EV’s so we will be sure to mention it often!


----------



## Apple fanboy

So planning my first long solo trip tomorrow. Off to see my Mum for the first time in 5+ years. Anyway I have plan A, B, C and D set up for charging. Its 206 miles. So figure one stop there, one stop on the way back. Hopefully I can steal a bit of granny charge whilst I'm there. 4-5 hours of that should save me a bit of time on the road. Its a 3 hour 50 minute ride without stops as it is.


----------



## Eric

Apple fanboy said:


> So planning my first long solo trip tomorrow. Off to see my Mum for the first time in 5+ years. Anyway I have plan A, B, C and D set up for charging. Its 206 miles. So figure one stop there, one stop on the way back. Hopefully I can steal a bit of granny charge whilst I'm there. 4-5 hours of that should save me a bit of time on the road. Its a 3 hour 50 minute ride without stops as it is.



Nice! It's one thing to see the specs on paper and it's another to actually put it to a real test, you'll get to learn all the benefits and quirks on a trip like that.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> Nice! It's one thing to see the specs on paper and it's another to actually put it to a real test, you'll get to learn all the benefits and quirks on a trip like that.



I'm sure it will be fine. The trip with my friend to Scotland (who's on his second EV) has helped my confidence a bit. My range is 175 miles, but at this time of year 130 is about right. Not unless I want to crawl all the way there!

We had to wait for charging a couple of times, but its not that long and I don't have a specific time I need to be there. Should sort out a decent playlist though!


----------



## Apple fanboy

Put the car on charge so I can leave at 100% in the morning. Mrs AFB just asked me has my car finished eating yet! Lol.


----------



## quagmire

Not surprising, but ICE will still reign supreme for now when it comes to towing.


----------



## Apple fanboy

So quick write up for my 230 mile trip (each way) in a car with a 130-140 mile real world range.

First of all I drove at 65mph. I could have got a bit more range at 60 or even 55mph, but decided 65 was an okay compromise on speed and time.

So left at 100%. My first stop was at around 120 miles. However the bank of chargers at Cambridge services were all offline. So I had a plan B and C lined up, but none had as many charging points. Anyway settled for a McDonalds about 15 minutes away. When I arrived I was down to 20% and starting to feel a bit nervous. But although there were only 2 chargers, they were both empty when I arrived. Buy the time I left there was a bit of a queue so I unplugged at 79%. This was enough to get me to my destination.

The return trip needed a couple of stops as I wasn't having the luxury of starting at 100%. My first point was a nice supermarket in a nice town. Had a really nice aray of chargers (slow, fast and rapid). I went for the rapid and took the opportunity to do a bit of photography and stretch my legs. 
My next planned stop I actually went for a different one as I was starting to feel a bit hungry. So stopped around 10 minutes earlier when I saw a charging point coming up. Again there were only 2, but neither was in use when I arrived or when I left. 

Stop one 46 minutes £17.11
Stop two 41 minutes £15.57
Stop three 36 minutes £12.49

Total trip 460 miles. Cost £45.17 
Conservative estimate for the equivalent petrol cost would be £90+.

Truth is I'd have stopped once each way either way but maybe not for that long. So pretty happy with my first long road trip in a low range EV.


----------



## Yoused

quagmire said:


> Not surprising, but ICE will still reign supreme for now when it comes to towing.




Of course, this is assuming that people will be doing the same things with EVs exactly as they are done with ICEs. Most likely, not taking the freeway would have given him cosiderably better range. Even a tall canopy would have helped. But, as I see it, the product that will show up will be zero-inertia (i.e., powered, tongue-load-sensing) trailers, which will allow anyone, even a small EV, to tow a trailer with effectively no loss of range.


----------



## DT

Yoused said:


> Of course, this is assuming that people will be doing the same things with EVs exactly as they are done with ICEs. Most likely, not taking the freeway would have given him cosiderably better range. Even a tall canopy would have helped. But, as I see it, the product that will show up will be zero-inertia (i.e., powered, tongue-load-sensing) trailers, which will allow anyone, even a small EV, to tow a trailer with effectively no loss of range.




You're right on, there's a number of products in development.  One of the campers has gyros, and can be driven around on its own with a smartphone, like it's unhitch, but want to move it a little closer to the lake 

One of the trailers will let something like a Model Y with 3500 lbs tow capacity handle 6000+ lbs with very little reduction in range.


----------



## DT

Nycturne said:


> Apprehension, not so much, but rather the more I look at the engineering decisions, I cringe.




I look at the execution through the lens of someone who's:  owned about 25 vehicles, many tuned and raced, driven a significant number high speed track events (and cleared for instruction), been involved in motorsport, helped to develop aftermarket parts, been obsessed with cars for, well, let's just say a long time - and - someone with an engineering background.

As a car, the AWD system is superb.  The performance is stellar.  We hop in, and it just works, it's ready to run, quickly.  The audio system is outstanding - the visibility  (something many people don't consider) is excellent, it's easy to set up a really good driving position (or several), the brakes have good feedback (keep in mind, I have the Performance model), the steering has a - quite frankly - surprising amount of nuance (and I've owned or driven cars like an S2K, M2/3, GT3 ...)

As an EV, the efficiency and power management is outstanding, the charging infrastructure is stellar (i.e., it works with L1/L2 EVSEs, it works with Superchargers, with non-Tesla DCFC, etc), it charges quickly, the payment process is seamless, the navigation system cleverly ties into the SuC network allowing me to determine availability - and recently to predict and even reroute based on charger availability - and the SuC are usually well maintained (something people don't factor in, when I see road trip reports from other cars indicating things like, "The entire <some_non-Tesla_DCFC> location was inoperable").

To be clear, I'm not trying to convince you of, anything really 

Only that if our M3P wasn't a good vehicle, I wouldn't own it - if it wasn't a good EV, I wouldn't own it.  I see people get into the weeds on particulars, the air vent controls,  the single display, even really silly things like the frequency of the sub-woofer crossover - if any of that didn't work for me as a car enthusiast, I'd return it tomorrow, I'd put in an order for an i4 M50, I'd say, to heck with it, I'm going back to ICE till there are more options for me, and order an RS3.

At the time I purchase just over a year ago, nothing else made sense when I weighed my preferred car + EV attributes.  In a couple of years?  Sure, I'll evaluate the marketspace again, and I suspect there will be way more options, and companies like BMW will have their dedicated EV platform up and running, and I'd __assume__ the charging infrastructure in the US will have greatly expanded, both through Tesla's opening of their network to other vehicles and other options like Electrify America, EVG, etc., also expanding.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> I look at the execution through the lens of someone who's:  owned about 25 vehicles, many tuned and raced, driven a significant number high speed track events (and cleared for instruction), been involved in motorsport, helped to develop aftermarket parts, been obsessed with cars for, well, let's just say a long time - and - someone with an engineering background.
> 
> As a car, the AWD system is superb.  The performance is stellar.  We hop in, and it just works, it's ready to run, quickly.  The audio system is outstanding - the visibility  (something many people don't consider) is excellent, it's easy to set up a really good driving position (or several), the brakes have good feedback (keep in mind, I have the Performance model), the steering has a - quite frankly - surprising amount of nuance (and I've owned or driven cars like an S2K, M2/3, GT3 ...)
> 
> As an EV, the efficiency and power management is outstanding, the charging infrastructure is stellar (i.e., it works with L1/L2 EVSEs, it works with Superchargers, with non-Tesla DCFC, etc), it charges quickly, the payment process is seamless, the navigation system cleverly ties into the SuC network allowing me to determine availability - and recently to predict and even reroute based on charger availability - and the SuC are usually well maintained (something people don't factor in, when I see road trip reports from other cars indicating things like, "The entire <some_non-Tesla_DCFC> location was inoperable").
> 
> To be clear, I'm not trying to convince you of, anything really
> 
> Only that if our M3P wasn't a good vehicle, I wouldn't own it - if it wasn't a good EV, I wouldn't own it.  I see people get into the weeds on particulars, the air vent controls,  the single display, even really silly things like the frequency of the sub-woofer crossover - if any of that didn't work for me as a car enthusiast, I'd return it tomorrow, I'd put in an order for an i4 M50, I'd say, to heck with it, I'm going back to ICE till there are more options for me, and order an RS3.
> 
> At the time I purchase just over a year ago, nothing else made sense when I weighed my preferred car + EV attributes.  In a couple of years?  Sure, I'll evaluate the marketspace again, and I suspect there will be way more options, and companies like BMW will have their dedicated EV platform up and running, and I'd __assume__ the charging infrastructure in the US will have greatly expanded, both through Tesla's opening of their network to other vehicles and other options like Electrify America, EVG, etc., also expanding.



I’ve been pleasantly surprised by my road trips this past week. You hear a lot of how bad the charging networks are. But they all worked on contactless. Just tap your card and away you go. Couldn’t be easier than that.


----------



## Nycturne

DT said:


> To be clear, I'm not trying to convince you of, anything really
> 
> Only that if our M3P wasn't a good vehicle, I wouldn't own it - if it wasn't a good EV, I wouldn't own it. * I see people get into the weeds *on particulars, the air vent controls,  the single display, even really silly things like the frequency of the sub-woofer crossover - if any of that didn't work for me as a car enthusiast, I'd return it tomorrow, I'd put in an order for an i4 M50, I'd say, to heck with it, I'm going back to ICE till there are more options for me, and order an RS3.




Awful lot of effort to put into a post that’s not trying to convince me of anything, TBH. 

The bolded bit is interesting, because when we talk about preference in the market, a lot of it _can_ be nit picking. But I don’t see that as a failure, I see that as a sign of good fundamentals across the industry in general. But it means companies also need to be on their game when it comes to the details (safety, reliability, etc), and understanding their target markets. 



Apple fanboy said:


> I’ve been pleasantly surprised by my road trips this past week. You hear a lot of how bad the charging networks are. But they all worked on contactless. Just tap your card and away you go. Couldn’t be easier than that.



I wouldn’t be surprised if charging networks in different parts of the world are maturing at different rates. Contactless payments never really took off in the US, for example, as folks jumped over to mobile apps which can be a bit messy. I’ll find out more what things are like once I actually have a chance to use charging stations in the area further down the road. 

Features like Plug and Charge should help as well as it gets more widely deployed. It is one of Tesla’s advantages at the moment.  

I did put down money for an ID.4 reservation. Realistically I expect delivery to happen in 2023 at this point. So I’m now in the waiting pattern. No rush though.


----------



## DT

Nycturne said:


> Awful lot of effort to put into a post that’s not trying to convince me of anything, TBH.




Previously written weeks ago for another [car related] site where I supply some content - thought you might appreciate it, I guess not


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> I’ve been pleasantly surprised by my road trips this past week. You hear a lot of how bad the charging networks are. But they all worked on contactless. Just tap your card and away you go. Couldn’t be easier than that.




I follow quite a few car sites, including a number that are EV specific, and that's just what I see here in the US, with regard to the non-Tesla infrastructure.

I mean, as just a totally random sample, when were headed to The Keys a few weeks ago, one of the last charging areas at the end of Florida had an 8 station SuC (only 150Kw), and in the Walmart parking lot behind that (where I walked to hit the head ...) there was an EA station with 2 chargers, and the one had a totally funked up LCD display, like it was random characters and unreadable, the other side was fine, but that's 50% out at a pretty critical location (The Keys is a void of chargers).

That needs to improve for everyone.  I'd gladly use an EA location with a CCS adapter under the right circumstances, but obviously it has to be working.


----------



## DT

Nycturne said:


> I did put down money for an ID.4 reservation. Realistically I expect delivery to happen in 2023 at this point. So I’m now in the waiting pattern. No rush though.




Excellent, I'll be super interested to hear your take on it, er, when it eventually arrives.  What's the spec?

I have a couple of other vehicles on order, they're __way__out__, so they really don't even factor into our plans, and we can't take delivery of both anyway, and we've got two cars already, hahaha, I figured I'd get ahead of the game a little


----------



## Apple fanboy

Nycturne said:


> Awful lot of effort to put into a post that’s not trying to convince me of anything, TBH.
> 
> The bolded bit is interesting, because when we talk about preference in the market, a lot of it _can_ be nit picking. But I don’t see that as a failure, I see that as a sign of good fundamentals across the industry in general. But it means companies also need to be on their game when it comes to the details (safety, reliability, etc), and understanding their target markets.
> 
> 
> I wouldn’t be surprised if charging networks in different parts of the world are maturing at different rates. Contactless payments never really took off in the US, for example, as folks jumped over to mobile apps which can be a bit messy. I’ll find out more what things are like once I actually have a chance to use charging stations in the area further down the road.
> 
> Features like Plug and Charge should help as well as it gets more widely deployed. It is one of Tesla’s advantages at the moment.
> 
> I did put down money for an ID.4 reservation. Realistically I expect delivery to happen in 2023 at this point. So I’m now in the waiting pattern. No rush though.



We’ve been doing contactless payments here for years. The US always seems much slower to adapt to newer banking technology. It was the same with chip and pin. I think you were 10 years behind Europe.


----------



## Nycturne

Apple fanboy said:


> We’ve been doing contactless payments here for years. The US always seems much slower to adapt to newer banking technology. It was the same with chip and pin. I think you were 10 years behind Europe.




Yeup. A lot of inertia here. But some of it is also due to larger retailers over here wanting to bypass payment processors. Even as both Apple and Google were pushing NFC payment systems here, you had large retailers like Walmart working on a QR-code based system that hooked up straight to checking accounts.



DT said:


> That needs to improve for everyone.  I'd gladly use an EA location with a CCS adapter under the right circumstances, but obviously it has to be working.




Agreed. A recent study was showing about 22% of individual chargers across a sampling in California were out of order. Another 5% had cables that were too short to be usable in the test. EA had the lowest out of order rate of the sample, but even that was 19%. EA was dinged more heavily than others due to cable length. 



DT said:


> Excellent, I'll be super interested to hear your take on it, er, when it eventually arrives.  What's the spec?
> 
> I have a couple of other vehicles on order, they're __way__out__, so they really don't even factor into our plans, and we can't take delivery of both anyway, and we've got two cars already, hahaha, I figured I'd get ahead of the game a little




AWD Pro S. I had a couple drives in a 2021 AWD Pro S before putting the reservation down. But it was the best balance of the different things I wanted. I’m still not a huge fan of all the touch controls everywhere, but the haptic and pressure-triggered touch controls in the ID.4 make it an easier pill to swallow. And the fact that the cargo area has more clearance at the top than my Outback is a nice touch. Not as deep front to back as the Outback, but I can live with it. I don’t have the 12” dobsonian telescope that took up most of the space in the Outback on road trips anymore, which helps. And since a most of my driving is: commute, hauling bikes and people to trail heads, and occasional road trips to star parties and the like, the ID.4 can do it so long as I don’t also need to tow a trailer. ~130mi range while towing a teardrop isn’t good enough for eastern Oregon yet, sadly. 

The issues I had with the pedals in the first drive were already much better in the second drive as I was getting used to how the brake pedal behaves, and the pedal placement. Second time around I also spent more time playing with the turning radius. For being a crossover, the thing turns on a dime, and the acceleration.

Really the only mod I’m going to have to make when I get it is a larger hitch receiver, or an adapter. It comes with a 1 1/4” receiver, but my bike rack is 2”, and they don’t make a 1 1/4” model that can carry my unit of an e-bike.


----------



## Herdfan

Oops.









						Electric police cars struggle to reach emergencies without running out of power
					

ELECTRIC police cars are struggling to reach crime scenes and emergencies without running out of power. Officers in rural areas cannot find charging points on patrol and are having to switch to pet…




					www.the-sun.com
				




What's funny is the wife called me yesterday while she was waiting in her car for her Chiropractic appointment to tell me that 3 police cars just went flying by and she thought one was a Tesla.

Turns out she was correct as the City of Nitro has a Tesla police car.  Then I saw this article.

Guess there is a little more range out of the Tesla than the Leafs.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Herdfan said:


> Oops.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Electric police cars struggle to reach emergencies without running out of power
> 
> 
> ELECTRIC police cars are struggling to reach crime scenes and emergencies without running out of power. Officers in rural areas cannot find charging points on patrol and are having to switch to pet…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.the-sun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's funny is the wife called me yesterday while she was waiting in her car for her Chiropractic appointment to tell me that 3 police cars just went flying by and she thought one was a Tesla.
> 
> Turns out she was correct as the City of Nitro has a Tesla police car.  Then I saw this article.
> 
> Guess there is a little more range out of the Tesla than the Leafs.



Fake news. This sort of story really is the lowest form of journalism.


----------



## Eric

Apple fanboy said:


> Fake news. This sort of story really is the lowest form of journalism.



Yeah, didn't even want to respond after actually reading the story. Seems to be a generic hit piece over a poorly planned rollout of electric vehicles. It's like saying "we ordered a bunch of gas powered vehicles without realizing the MPG and calculating local gas stations". You can't blame the car for decisions like that.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> Yeah, didn't even want to respond after actually reading the story. Seems to be a generic hit piece over a poorly planned rollout of electric vehicles. It's like saying "we ordered a bunch of gas powered vehicles without realizing the MPG and calculating local gas stations". You can't blame the car for decisions like that.



Given the source it’s more likely not even true. Probably the car was just a promotional job (I’ve seen my own i3 made to look like a police car, but they never actually made any). 
The Sun is a rubbish tabloid newspaper.


----------



## Herdfan

Apple fanboy said:


> Given the source it’s more likely not even true. *Probably the car was just a promotional job* (I’ve seen my own i3 made to look like a police car, but they never actually made any).
> The Sun is a rubbish tabloid newspaper.




The part about them not being able to keep them charged may not be true, but they did buy 75 Nissan EV's (66 Leafs and 9 NV200's)

Multiple stories about that online.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> The part about them not being able to keep them charged may not be true, but they did buy 75 Nissan EV's (66 Leafs and 9 NV200's)
> 
> Multiple stories about that online.



But you can't blame the car for their poor planning, if they can't calculate mileage vs charging that's on them. Someone in their engineering department needs to be fired.


----------



## Apple fanboy

So on the way home had one of these up my backside at the lights reeving his huge twin exhausts. Clearly expecting me to be in his way.




So decided to take it out of eco+ mode and select comfort mode. Could of gone full sports mode, but why bother? Left him for dust up to 60MPH (the speed limit), then just pulled over and let him get on with burning fossil fuels. He roared past me and then cut into my lane at the roundabout as that type of driver does.


----------



## SuperMatt

I ended up renting a VW ID.4 SUV from the *Turo *app for a trip this past weekend. After figuring out where the “gear shift” was (behind the steering wheel), it was a pretty nice vehicle to drive. It charged quite fast at DC fast charging stations, basically only constrained by the kW of the charger itself. Driving over the Continental Divide, I realized the range estimates of the vehicle can change rapidly depending on the grade. “Oh look I only have 80 miles range left!”... then start going down a steep grade for 2-3 miles  ... “Hey I’ve got 125 miles range left!” It has wireless charging and wireless CarPlay, which I really appreciated, although I ended up plugging the phone in (USB-C plugs BTW) because if you are driving over bumpy roads, the phone can slide around slightly, taking it off the “sweet spot” of the wireless charger.


----------



## Eric

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/vxh6bj


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> So on the way home had one of these up my backside at the lights reeving his huge twin exhausts. Clearly expecting me to be in his way.
> 
> So decided to take it out of eco+ mode and select comfort mode. Could of gone full sports mode, but why bother? Left him for dust up to 60MPH (the speed limit), then just pulled over and let him get on with burning fossil fuels. He roared past me and then cut into my lane at the roundabout as that type of driver does.




Well, hahaha, it's just a BRZ/86 (that photo has an aftermarket body/aero kit), it's only 228HP out of a flat-4   They handle pretty solid, really get down to business with some coilovers, better wheel/tire setup.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/vxh6bj



My heated seats work fine thanks. However not getting a lot of use. Mostly the AC! Love cooking the car down before I leave. Especially as we are in the middle of a heatwave.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> Well, hahaha, it's just a BRZ/86 (that photo has an aftermarket body/aero kit), it's only 228HP out of a flat-4   They handle pretty solid, really get down to business with some coilovers, better wheel/tire setup.



This was the closest photo I could find online. Not sure of the exact specs. Well except for the dick behind the wheel!


----------



## DT

Ioniq 6 officially revealed!









						Hyundai’s Ioniq 6 could be your next home away from home office
					

Space for your laptop, lots of ports, and even a notes app.




					www.theverge.com
				





A lot of great stuff happening with this car, 379-mile range with the long-range 77.4-kWh battery (WLTP, EPA is more like 330-ish), super-fast charging (mostly limited by charging locations), AWD option (I can't tell you how much I love having an AWD sport sedan), some cool stuff like multi-color interior lighting, a workspace option for working on the road, tons of charging ports, lots of slick tech.

Pricing TBD, but it's being built in the same platform as the Ioniq, I'd suspect $4-5K at each price tier more expensive (so maybe starting around $45K).

The video in the link is, umm, weirdly interesting, a little too overproduced, but you get a good sense of the car's features.

For me, even more exciting than the Ioniq 6 featured in the video, is the little blurb at the end, where the unidentified vehicle comes flying by them the other way, that's their N product tease (which is their R/M/whatever performance badge).

Kia and Hyundai continuing to deliver.


----------



## SuperMatt

DT said:


> Ioniq 6 officially revealed!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hyundai’s Ioniq 6 could be your next home away from home office
> 
> 
> Space for your laptop, lots of ports, and even a notes app.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theverge.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of great stuff happening with this car, 379-mile range with the long-range 77.4-kWh battery (WLTP, EPA is more like 330-ish), super-fast charging (mostly limited by charging locations), AWD option (I can't tell you how much I love having an AWD sport sedan), some cool stuff like multi-color interior lighting, a workspace option for working on the road, tons of charging ports, lots of slick tech.
> 
> Pricing TBD, but it's being built in the same platform as the Ioniq, I'd suspect $4-5K at each price tier more expensive (so maybe starting around $45K).
> 
> The video in the link is, umm, weirdly interesting, a little too overproduced, but you get a good sense of the car's features.
> 
> For me, even more exciting than the Ioniq 6 featured in the video, is the little blurb at the end, where the unidentified vehicle comes flying by them the other way, that's their N product tease (which is their R/M/whatever performance badge).
> 
> Kia and Hyundai continuing to deliver.



Looks like a great vehicle. But the first picture is hilarious. 

“What are your plans for the afternoon?"
“I’m going to hang out in the hot sun in a parking lot and draw on an oversized Microsoft tablet plugged into my car!"

I also like that it appears to have a standard control console for the basics like HVAC. Touch screens are great... unless you’re driving.


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> Ioniq 6 officially revealed!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hyundai’s Ioniq 6 could be your next home away from home office
> 
> 
> Space for your laptop, lots of ports, and even a notes app.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theverge.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of great stuff happening with this car, 379-mile range with the long-range 77.4-kWh battery (WLTP, EPA is more like 330-ish), super-fast charging (mostly limited by charging locations), AWD option (I can't tell you how much I love having an AWD sport sedan), some cool stuff like multi-color interior lighting, a workspace option for working on the road, tons of charging ports, lots of slick tech.
> 
> Pricing TBD, but it's being built in the same platform as the Ioniq, I'd suspect $4-5K at each price tier more expensive (so maybe starting around $45K).
> 
> *The video in the link is, umm, weirdly interesting, a little too overproduced, but you get a good sense of the car's features.*
> 
> For me, even more exciting than the Ioniq 6 featured in the video, is the little blurb at the end, where the unidentified vehicle comes flying by them the other way, that's their N product tease (which is their R/M/whatever performance badge).
> 
> Kia and Hyundai continuing to deliver.



Couldn't get through it, way too much that had nothing to do with the car's features, what a ridiculous piece of over-hyped marketing crap. Will look for more practical and to the point videos after it's released.


----------



## DT

OMG, yes, that video is super silly, I just FF'ed through anything that wasn't showing video of the actual car.



SuperMatt said:


> Looks like a great vehicle. But the first picture is hilarious.
> 
> “What are your plans for the afternoon?"
> “I’m going to hang out in the hot sun in a parking lot and draw on an oversized Microsoft tablet plugged into my car!"




Hahaha, an odd choice to show off, umm, I guess that the car can provide external AC power?


----------



## SuperMatt

DT said:


> OMG, yes, that video is super silly, I just FF'ed through anything that wasn't showing video of the actual car.
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha, an odd choice to show off, umm, I guess that the car can provide external AC power?



Maybe show a George Foreman grill plugged into it for a cookout or something...


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> Maybe show a George Foreman grill plugged into it for a cookout or something...




The whole scenario is confusing, a huge tablet that I would assume runs on battery, she's sitting at some kind of outdoor cafe-ish looking place?  But she's parked right up next to the table ("Hey lady, you can't park there!!") - or - her table is in the road.  

And she appears to be sketching something, but looking up, so I'm assuming some sort of giant robot that's looming over the city ...


----------



## DT

I like the general design, even the odd by classic standards sloping rear roof line, but holy f-ing hell, those are some ugly wheels.  They're just so busy, but I've noticed that a recurring design pattern in EV wheels.


----------



## Apple fanboy

So on my drive this morning to the chiropractor my i3 tells me the pedestrian detection system is not working. Then the crash prevention sensor. Then the adaptive cruise control. 
Booked in for the 22nd for a fix hopefully. 
Glad it’s under warranty.


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> So on my drive this morning to the chiropractor my i3 tells me the pedestrian detection system is not working. Then the crash prevention sensor. Then the adaptive cruise control.
> Booked in for the 22nd for a fix hopefully.
> Glad it’s under warranty.




At first I thought you wrote your i3 was telling you to go to the chiropractor, I was thinking, wow, that's a neat feature ... 

I'm sure it's something simple, like a loose harness, or it might be the 12v battery, that's a common issue on Tesla (though usually older like 4+ years), and when they start going bad, it results in all sorts of crazy error/diagnostic issues.


----------



## DT

OK, I have not been a fan of the Lucid design, the silver roof is weird and the bright finish on the wheels isn't my thing.  However this ...






Is definitely my thing.  A new "stealth" package, that will only (*snicker*) set you back another $6000.


----------



## Nycturne

Talk about this thing has resurfaced: a VW truck built on the MEB platform. The original concept from a couple years ago reminds me a lot of the Subaru Baja.









						Would You Buy A VW ID.4-Based Electric Pickup Truck?
					

A rendering artist decided to show how an electric pickup truck based on the VW ID.4. Considering the demand for the crossover, this may be a good idea.




					insideevs.com
				












						VW Eyeing U.S. Site for Electric Pickup Trucks, Executive Says
					

The remarks by Inga Von Seelen, senior vice president-purchasing for VWoA, come during a panel discussion of OEM-supplier relations at the Center for Automotive Research’s Management Briefing Seminars in Traverse City, MI.




					www.wardsauto.com


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> At first I thought you wrote your i3 was telling you to go to the chiropractor, I was thinking, wow, that's a neat feature ...
> 
> I'm sure it's something simple, like a loose harness, or it might be the 12v battery, that's a common issue on Tesla (though usually older like 4+ years), and when they start going bad, it results in all sorts of crazy error/diagnostic issues.



I'd have thought its a bit early on the 12V, but I guess the BMW guys will let me know when it goes in on the 22nd. Glad I have the warranty to take care of it though.


----------



## Apple fanboy

I'm sure this would just fall over. But looks cool.


----------



## DT

OK, now we're talking, camo'ed Ioniq 5 N variant, meatier tires, extra intakes (for brake cooking, aero), the photographer said it had more aggressive sport seats.  The assumption is the N version would get the same 576HP as the EV6 GT









						Hyundai Ioniq 5 N Spied Wearing Camo Wrap To Hide Final Production Form
					

New spy photos capture a pre-production version of the Ioniq 5 N, hiding its final form beneath a camouflage wrap.




					www.motor1.com


----------



## Yoused

Apple fanboy said:


> I'm sure this would just fall over. But looks cool.



3-wheelers in "tadpole" configuration tend to be at least as stable as most 4-wheelers. Aptera, though, I am leery of, just because they have been around for the better part of 2 decades and produced very large quanities of vaporware.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Yoused said:


> 3-wheelers in "tadpole" configuration tend to be at least as stable as most 4-wheelers. Aptera, though, I am leery of, just because they have been around for the better part of 2 decades and produced very large quanities of vaporware.



I’d never order a car like this until they had been around on the roads for a few years. I’m not about to be a £20k+ beta tester.


----------



## DT

JFC!









						Luxury Electric Cars | Lucid Motors
					

Lucid is the future of sustainable mobility,    designing luxury electric cars that further reimagines    the driving experience.




					www.lucidmotors.com


----------



## DT

Stellantis Media - MEDIA ADVISORY: Jeep® Brand 4xe Day
					

Jeep® is accelerating toward Zero Emission Freedom, making a series of announcements on its electrification plans during the upcoming Jeep Brand 4xe Day. The video presentation will go live on Thurs., Sept. 8, 2022, at 8 a.m. EDT / 2 p.m. CET on Jeep brand’s YouTube channel.




					media.stellantisnorthamerica.com
				




Maybe some updates about the BEV Wrangler "Magneto", but my money is on an announcement of a 4xe Gladiator (since Jeep already has a 4xe Wrangler and GC).  Plus, the usual corporate-speak about their "Future EV commitment ..."


----------



## Yoused

DT said:


> JFC!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luxury Electric Cars | Lucid Motors
> 
> 
> Lucid is the future of sustainable mobility,    designing luxury electric cars that further reimagines    the driving experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lucidmotors.com




3 motors I do not get. Especially the one on the front, which adds the mechanical complexity/weight of CV joints and a differential. AAUI more-smaller is better than fewer-larger, but go two or go four, three is just goofy.


----------



## DT

Yoused said:


> 3 motors I do not get. Especially the one on the front, which adds the mechanical complexity/weight of CV joints and a differential. AAUI more-smaller is better than fewer-larger, but go two or go four, three is just goofy.




Front has limited space?  Front is already traction limited?  Additional motor adds very little in terms of [on-road] performance for additional weight and cost?  Maybe they're using more of the single front motor for highway cruising resulting in more efficient power use?

The Model S Plaid and Lucid are both using 3 motors, and running 8-second 1/4 miles at over 155 MPH ... in 4-door sedans.  I'm assuming the engineers for both companies know what their doing


----------



## Yoused

DT said:


> I'm assuming the engineers for both companies know what their doing




Perhaps. I have my doubts. Engineering seems to converge into narrow paradigms from which the engineers themselves cannot get unstuck. There have, for instance, been a lot of common private passenger vehicles getting less – much less – than 40mpg in the past couple decades, which is way behind where we should have been (I blame that on the broader influence of one particular guy, perhaps unfairly). I have limited faith in industrial engineers and more faith (in the other direction) in the bean counters, marketers and executroids who tell their engineers what they want.


----------



## DT

I agree, so much product is driven by the bean counters.

That being said, look at Lucid from a company and product perspective.  They had a clean slate, massive capital, they're making upmarket, high end vehicles and don't seem to care about price segment - the new Sapphire is $250K so it's not like they were trying to slip into some typical performance sedan pricing segment -  and from everything I've read about the "company philosophy", they don't strike me as having the kind of executive team that requires cutting corners.  Plus, 4-motor vehicles exist, and are being delivered (see - Rivian), so it's not like there's some rigid design paradigm when it comes to EVs, in fact, as a "startup" they could redefine everything about EV design, but still chose a tri-motor setup.


----------



## Herdfan

Kind of a feel good story:









						West Virginia Coal Miners Push Stranded Electric Car to Plant in Order to Charge Up
					

Democrats have been pushing toward a drastic shift toward electric cars in recent years.




					redstate.com
				




The one thing from the article I didn't quite understand was why they think coal miners are against electric vehicles.


----------



## Yoused

Herdfan said:


> The one thing from the article I didn't quite understand was why they think coal miners are against electric vehicles.



The site generates this pop-up from time to time:
​so I am guessing the authors assume coal miners think like them, based on – assumptions?


----------



## Herdfan

Yoused said:


> The site generates this pop-up from time to time:
> View attachment 17327​so I am guessing the authors assume coal miners think like them, based on – assumptions?




Yeah, the Red State link was the one where it came across my FB feed.  But the story is from a local TV News station (linked in the Red State story) and their story has this line:

Despite the recent controversy with coal power and the push toward alternatives that are more energy efficient like electric cars, the group was happy to help. *“Shows even though they aren’t crazy about electric cars they still have a good heart and treat people with respect and would help anyone in need.”*

Coal miners should love electric cars.  They need to keep mining coal to provide power to charge the things.


----------



## Nycturne

Herdfan said:


> Coal miners should love electric cars.  They need to keep mining coal to provide power to charge the things.




That was kinda my thought. Coal use is an orthogonal issue to EV use.

The only link is that EV use is about reducing emissions, which reducing coal dependence also stems from. But if your goal is to reduce emissions, having a grid that’s over 90% coal (as of 2014) is not going to do EVs many favors. It pushes the break even point of an EV vs ICE in terms of emissions waaaay out there.


----------



## Yoused

Nycturne said:


> … having a grid that’s over 90% coal (as of 2014) is not going to do EVs many favors. It pushes the break even point of an EV vs ICE in terms of emissions waaaay out there.




Remember that a coal-fired power plant operates at optimum efficiency, and that ICEs rely on ICEs to get the fuel to where they can pump it out of the ground into the vehicle tanks – EVs make best use of the power they acquire off the grid, which is shipped over wires (not in trucks). So the dirtiness of EVs is vastly overstated, in the interest of saying "_oil doesn't suck_" (spoiler: it does).


----------



## Nycturne

Yoused said:


> Remember that a coal-fired power plant operates at optimum efficiency, and that ICEs rely on ICEs to get the fuel to where they can pump it out of the ground into the vehicle tanks – EVs make best use of the power they acquire off the grid, which is shipped over wires (not in trucks). So the dirtiness of EVs is vastly overstated, in the interest of saying "_oil doesn't suck_" (spoiler: it does).




Oh, I agree that _in use_ the emissions per mile is still in favor of EVs. _Especially _when you take into account the emissions costs of refining and moving the fuel. However, the emissions cost of making the car (thanks in part to the environmental impact of mining the materials needed for current battery chemistries which is energy intensive, and the extra material needed for the car to handle the battery weight) is higher than the ICE car for now. So fresh off the line, the EV starts at a deficit it needs to “pay off” before it beats the ICE car. Because of that higher up front impact, the longer you can run the EV, recycle the batteries, etc, the better for emissions in the long run.

The difference is that the type of energy mix you have can change where that break even point is. If you live in parts of the PNW where >90% of your electricity comes from hydro, solar/wind, nuclear, that’s sort of a best case scenario right now and the EV can pay off early on. But as the mix gets dirtier, it takes longer to break even.

While we don’t have a lot of data that provides a good like-for-like comparison, Volvo shared some data on their XC40 ICE vs XC40 Recharge. Their main comparison was over a 200,000 km lifespan (just shy of 125k miles), and the ICE was the dirtiest. Unfortunately, they don’t mention exactly what the EU-28 and global mixes actually represent when it comes to power generation, so it’s hard to say if WV power is worse than the global mix or not (it could very well be at >90% coal).


----------



## Yoused

Well, when you add in the construction, maintenance and environmental cost of roads, highways, tires making dust on the pavement and surface management (plowing/salting), even bicycles start to become nearly as dirty as cars.


----------



## Nycturne

Yoused said:


> Well, when you add in the construction, maintenance and environmental cost of roads, highways, tires making dust on the pavement and surface management (plowing/salting), even bicycles start to become nearly as dirty as cars.




I’m not really sure where this in particular came from. It’s not a bad thing to look at impact holistically over the life of a vehicle if the goal is to reduce emissions. Since it reveals that even just keeping our cars longer helps reduce our impact.

As for the claim presented here, not even close. The paved area needed, and the weight of the vehicles that use it are the key factors when talking about the environmental impact. Bike paths require less maintenance and demand fewer resources to maintain/build. Bike parking uses less asphalt (and can even be indoors), takes up less space, and would help make for more dense cities, reducing the average trip distance. I could also build a hundred e-bikes using the same number of lithium cells that something like the ID.4 takes. A hundred electric scooters. Light transport like bikes start out less resource intensive, and stay that way throughout their life, and only look even better when you take infrastructure into account.. 

Honestly, the biggest impact we could have to reduce the environmental cost of roads in the short term would be to reduce the amount of freight being carried on roads, and getting more people onto alternate forms of transit. A city bus can move _at least_ double the people per unit of vehicle weight. Light rail and even train freight runs on tracks whose lifespan is around 50 years, and is inherently easier to refurbish or recycle, reducing impact over the long term. 

Am I still going to buy an EV? Yes. I am impatiently waiting in line for my reservation. But we could hit climate goals much faster with tech we already have if we wanted to.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Nycturne said:


> I’m not really sure where this in particular came from. It’s not a bad thing to look at impact holistically over the life of a vehicle if the goal is to reduce emissions. Since it reveals that even just keeping our cars longer helps reduce our impact.
> 
> As for the claim presented here, not even close. The paved area needed, and the weight of the vehicles that use it are the key factors when talking about the environmental impact. Bike paths require less maintenance and demand fewer resources to maintain/build. Bike parking uses less asphalt (and can even be indoors), takes up less space, and would help make for more dense cities, reducing the average trip distance. I could also build a hundred e-bikes using the same number of lithium cells that something like the ID.4 takes. A hundred electric scooters. Light transport like bikes start out less resource intensive, and stay that way throughout their life, and only look even better when you take infrastructure into account..
> 
> Honestly, the biggest impact we could have to reduce the environmental cost of roads in the short term would be to reduce the amount of freight being carried on roads, and getting more people onto alternate forms of transit. A city bus can move _at least_ double the people per unit of vehicle weight. Light rail and even train freight runs on tracks whose lifespan is around 50 years, and is inherently easier to refurbish or recycle, reducing impact over the long term.
> 
> Am I still going to buy an EV? Yes. I am impatiently waiting in line for my reservation. But we could hit climate goals much faster with tech we already have if we wanted to.



Our bus comes to the village twice a day. 90% of the time it’s empty. Not sure how that’s good for the environment. 
We would be better off providing more opportunities for people to WFH and negate any sort of commute.


----------



## Nycturne

Apple fanboy said:


> Our bus comes to the village twice a day. 90% of the time it’s empty. Not sure how that’s good for the environment.



Keep in mind when I discuss this, I am being a bit city centric (or metropolitan area for regions like the US where urban sprawl is a thing). It's a numbers game at the end of the day. If I can make a change that impacts a couple hundred thousand people, or a couple thousand people, if my goal is lower emissions quickly, the former group should be where my attention is focused.

If the transportation option is such that people won't use it for various reasons, then yes, it's not going to help, but the reason why can be complex. Solutions for some regions will not be the same for others as well for various reasons. But I'm a bit more concerned about areas where you have long commutes due to traffic in crowded regions, which exacerbates the fuel costs/etc, and where these sort of gains are much bigger due to infrastructure that's already costly in support of single-occupant car commuters, and represents a significant drain on the region's resources and tax base.

Getting folks in dense areas out of cars, breaking car dependence for poorer folks, makes electrification _easier, _not harder, and makes more resources available for folks living outside the city to electrify, lowers immediate demand (and upward price pressure) on EVs, making them easier to afford. It also makes infrastructure cheaper in the long run, and promotes a healthier tax base that can afford to do more interesting things with that money.  It doesn't have to be a zero-sum game.

In the US, many suburbs are _subsidized by folks living and working in the city core. _It's effectively a hidden regressive tax. 



Apple fanboy said:


> We would be better off providing more opportunities for people to WFH and negate any sort of commute.



I did have a bit about reducing trip distances being a big factor (especially towards making non-car/bus transit easier in regions), but edited it out of my post.


----------



## Yoused

Nycturne said:


> Keep in mind when I discuss this, I am being a bit city centric (or metropolitan area for regions like the US where urban sprawl is a thing).




We will probably eventually have to revise our broader social ethos. Right now, if I live in Recluse Wyoming or Starkweather North Dakota, I expect my lifestyle to be comparable to that of my cousin who lives in the Slide Pointe development on the edge of Petaluma California. It is not clear how long we can maintain this homogeneity of lifestyle, or even whether we ought to.


----------



## Nycturne

Yoused said:


> We will probably eventually have to revise our broader social ethos. Right now, if I live in Recluse Wyoming or Starkweather North Dakota, I expect my lifestyle to be comparable to that of my cousin who lives in the Slide Pointe development on the edge of Petaluma California. It is not clear how long we can maintain this homogeneity of lifestyle, or even whether we ought to.



Don’t disagree, but I suspect it’s people in the cities that are probably the ones looking at a larger readjustment (I say as one of them), but we have better answers for cities right now, so maybe not a bad situation to be in. In the US we managed to reshape our cities in favor of cars, and crafted the current idea of the American Dream after WWII. It’s not impossible to do what you suggest because as a society we do it every so often. I’d just rather we do it because of the carrot (lower the cost of living in cities and provide regular workers breathing room) rather than the stick (climate change creating hardships decades from now). And I could be wrong on this, it is speculative and we may find a way though the process of electrification without drastically reshaping how our cities currently work and without the climate being a harsh forcing function on the whole thing.

Anyways, being a little more on topic, I wish I had more to say on EV ownership, but I suspect it will be early next year before I get mine. Anyone else wish car colors weren’t so boring though? With the supply issues, it seems like the options are thin to keep things simple. It seems like the only colors on offer for many EVs I’m looking at are white, grey/silver, black, red and blue. *sigh*


----------



## Apple fanboy

Nycturne said:


> Don’t disagree, but I suspect it’s people in the cities that are probably the ones looking at a larger readjustment (I say as one of them), but we have better answers for cities right now, so maybe not a bad situation to be in. In the US we managed to reshape our cities in favor of cars, and crafted the current idea of the American Dream after WWII. It’s not impossible to do what you suggest because as a society we do it every so often. I’d just rather we do it because of the carrot (lower the cost of living in cities and provide regular workers breathing room) rather than the stick (climate change creating hardships decades from now). And I could be wrong on this, it is speculative and we may find a way though the process of electrification without drastically reshaping how our cities currently work and without the climate being a harsh forcing function on the whole thing.
> 
> Anyways, being a little more on topic, I wish I had more to say on EV ownership, but I suspect it will be early next year before I get mine. Anyone else wish car colors weren’t so boring though? With the supply issues, it seems like the options are thin to keep things simple. It seems like the only colors on offer for many EVs I’m looking at are white, grey/silver, black, red and blue. *sigh*



Nothing wrong with red! I like my red and black i3! 

Interesting point you make about traffic. Of course that’s where an EV wins hands down. ICE vehicles sit in traffic jams for hours burning fossil fuels. But an EV doesn’t. Traffic just increased your range! 

That said the list art of walking in the US could all help. I remember being in LA and my hotel was 2-3 miles from the exhibition centre. I’d just walk in everyday rather than get an Uber. Some of the people I was working with thought I was mad!


----------



## DT

Nycturne said:


> Anyways, being a little more on topic, I wish I had more to say on EV ownership, but I suspect it will be early next year before I get mine.




We're just shy of 17 months with the Wrangler 4xe (PHEV) and and a week away from 15 months with the Tesla and it's still pretty fantastic.

Some folks here know how much of a car enthusiast I am, I've owned quite a few, I've spent hour after hour talking about cars online, writing articles,  I've done shows, track events, magazines, prototyped parts, I enjoy all the aspects of ownership, it's my hobby so to speak.  So for me, it was a big deal to leave my comfort zone of ICE vehicles.

The 4xe was the gateway drug, sure, we wanted to try a Wrangler (for all the fun things they do well), but the real impact it made with me was the EV part.  The Wrangler worked out that it was both a vehicle we wanted and gave us a way to try an EV without fully committing to battery only.  It didn't take long to realize how well the EV part worked for us and two months later, I've got my car traded for a BEV, and the Wrangler replacement in about 18-19 months will be a BEV as well.

Hahaha, this is the last two "pure" ICE vehicle we will almost assuredly, ever own, surrounding their new stablemate (for a few days), giving it the side-eye 











Nycturne said:


> Anyone else wish car colors weren’t so boring though? With the supply issues, it seems like the options are thin to keep things simple. It seems like the only colors on offer for many EVs I’m looking at are white, grey/silver, black, red and blue. *sigh*




Yeah, there's always going to be all the "gray-scale" colors, that include 2-3 gray/silver variants, maybe a blue or red, and then depending on the company, possibly multiple shades of blue, maybe a limited time special color (see Orange Fury Metallic above ),  and some of the companies entering the EV space, are, well, let's be honest, sort of boring anyway.

As companies like BMW are increasing their EV presence, they're starting to get a little more interesting with color options, this is the current choices on an i4 M50:







That doesn't include some higher cost "special" colors (that according to the site "could add an extra 10 weeks to delivery).


And there's always a wrap, where you can get as nutty as you want


----------



## Herdfan

Nycturne said:


> Anyways, being a little more on topic, I wish I had more to say on EV ownership, but I suspect it will be early next year before I get mine. Anyone else wish car colors weren’t so boring though? With the supply issues, it seems like the options are thin to keep things simple. It seems like the only colors on offer for many EVs I’m looking at are white, grey/silver, black, red and blue. *sigh*




Get it wrapped.  You probably see wrapped cars every day and have no idea.  The strides made in the quality of wraps over the past few years is amazing.  Plenty of videos on TikTok of people having brand new vehicles wrapped.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> Get it wrapped.  You probably see wrapped cars every day and have no idea.  The strides made in the quality of wraps over the past few years is amazing.  Plenty of videos on TikTok of people having brand new vehicles wrapped.




Wraps are just insane, I remember when I first saw a really good one years ago, and my ol' school brain couldn't reconcile that it wasn't paint.  It was smooth like paint, glossy like paint, covered every nook and cranny on the body like paint ... but brother, it ain't paint.


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> Wraps are just insane, I remember when I first saw a really good one years ago,




First one I really saw being done was in the pits at a NASCAR race.  They had to replace a front fender and we got to see them put a new wrap on.  Ten minutes and it looked like it had never been wrecked.  The decals and stickers and everything was already printed on the wrap.  

My first SXS was a yellow Can-Am Commander.  And the yellow on the dash really reflected off the windshield making it hard to see sometimes.  So I ordered some black wrap and wrapped the dash.  Worked great, but certainly not as a clean as someone who does it professionally.


----------



## DT

I'd love to wrap the Tesla, and I may still do it.  I tend to get cranky over things where the materials are cheap and the labor expensive, because I DIY so much (partially out of the enjoyment of doing it).

That being said, a wrap is tricky and complex without any previous experience.  A buddy of mine did his car himself, and it came out pretty darn good, he lucked into a huge quantity of wrap material for nearly nothing, like enough to do his whole vehicle probably 3 times (so lots extra for testing/trial and error), and he was going from dark metallic gray to dark satin gray, so that allowed for a little more margin of error (in terms of visible paint), and he worked on it for about a month (works from home like me, so the car sits most of the time).


----------



## Nycturne

Herdfan said:


> Get it wrapped.  You probably see wrapped cars every day and have no idea.  The strides made in the quality of wraps over the past few years is amazing.  Plenty of videos on TikTok of people having brand new vehicles wrapped.




That’s probably the direction I’ll wind up going to be honest. I’ve just been spoiled by the color choices Subaru has been making with the Outback where their color choices are all pretty good in my eye and so it’s easier to not be picky.



DT said:


> The 4xe was the gateway drug, sure, we wanted to try a Wrangler (for all the fun things they do well), but the real impact it made with me was the EV part.  The Wrangler worked out that it was both a vehicle we wanted and gave us a way to try an EV without fully committing to battery only.  It didn't take long to realize how well the EV part worked for us and two months later, I've got my car traded for a BEV, and the Wrangler replacement in about 18-19 months will be a BEV as well.



The Subaru I’ve been driving I always assumed would be my last ICE vehicle. I liked that Tesla was pushing EVs into the public consciousness, but I just never saw one I was willing to buy. So the Outback has been a bit of a “drive it until I find a BEV that is similar enough to it” purchase. If resale value stays high in the time it takes to get the ID.4, I will be able to recoup most of what I paid OTD, which is pretty amazing for a 5 year old car.

For me, it’s just that by the time I would seriously consider a PHEV, my commute got long enough that either the PHEV would be switching to gas before I got into the office (Crosstrek) or would need to recharge if I wanted to get home on battery too. We don’t yet have enough chargers at work to go around, so fighting every day to get some time on them wasn’t something I was enthusiastic about.

About the only PHEV that would let me do my commute purely on battery and not give up too much on the ability to haul stuff on the evenings/weekends that I have now was the RAV4 Prime. Also rare as hen’s teeth right now. So why not just go full BEV if one that meets my needs exists?



DT said:


> As companies like BMW are increasing their EV presence, they're starting to get a little more interesting with color options, this is the current choices on an i4 M50:




I do like those color options on the i4. With Subaru I’ve always gotten green, and that green is quite nice.

VW of America made some odd choices with the 2023 ID.4 colors. The light interior choice is surprisingly busy with black, dark grey, off-white and dark blue all over, and the seats themselves are two-tone off-white and dark blue which makes me think of much older two-tone interiors that haven’t really been a thing in ages. I don’t hate it, but it’d get old for me pretty quick. But the only non-monochrome color with the dark grey interior is a bright red. Fun.

Honestly, I’d be fine with the VW blue if either the light interior was a bit better, or it came with the darker interior.



Apple fanboy said:


> Interesting point you make about traffic. Of course that’s where an EV wins hands down. ICE vehicles sit in traffic jams for hours burning fossil fuels. But an EV doesn’t. Traffic just increased your range!
> 
> That said the list art of walking in the US could all help. I remember being in LA and my hotel was 2-3 miles from the exhibition centre. I’d just walk in everyday rather than get an Uber. Some of the people I was working with thought I was mad!




Yeah, it’s one reason I do want an EV, because the local public transit isn’t going to have good options for the area around our house for another decade. I’d still need to drive to the local park and ride when it does appear, which an EV would be better for anyways.

And agree. The thing that I lament the most is that walking/biking in many areas in North America is outright dangerous because of the assumption that streets are for cars and the lack of infrastructure for anyone not in a car. It isn’t uncommon to have cars refuse to yield to crosswalks at larger intersections, so even when I’m trying to follow “the rules” that handed over the streets to cars in the first place, I’m taking my life into my hands trying to walk those 2-3 miles eating lunch off campus at work. And yes I’m a bit bitter because I had that happen just yesterday and nearly got hit by cars twice at the same intersection crossing at a crosswalk when I had clear right of way (once crossing to get somewhere, and again crossing getting back).


----------



## Deleted member 215

So...California's current power grid can't support AC usage on a hot day; how is it going to support all these EVs charging once gas-powered cars are fully phased out?


----------



## Cmaier

TBL said:


> So...California's current power grid can't support AC usage on a hot day; how is it going to support all these EVs charging once gas-powered cars are fully phased out?



They don't all charge simultaneously, first of all. And charger use doesn't spike - it's predictable.  And people tend to charge their cars when usage is low (i.e. early morning/late night) to save money.


----------



## DT

DT said:


> Stellantis Media - MEDIA ADVISORY: Jeep® Brand 4xe Day
> 
> 
> Jeep® is accelerating toward Zero Emission Freedom, making a series of announcements on its electrification plans during the upcoming Jeep Brand 4xe Day. The video presentation will go live on Thurs., Sept. 8, 2022, at 8 a.m. EDT / 2 p.m. CET on Jeep brand’s YouTube channel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> media.stellantisnorthamerica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe some updates about the BEV Wrangler "Magneto", but my money is on an announcement of a 4xe Gladiator (since Jeep already has a 4xe Wrangler and GC).  Plus, the usual corporate-speak about their "Future EV commitment ..."




3 new BEVs revealed!









						Jeep® Brand Reveals Plan for Global Leadership in SUV Electrification
					

The Jeep® brand reveals next phase of its all-electric product offensive to become the global Zero-Emission SUV leader  The brand will introduce four all-electric SUVs in North America and in Europe by 2025




					www.media.stellantis.com
				





The new Jeep Avenger for the European market, supposed to arrive in '23, small-er-ish, 248 mile range, looks fun:







A new Wagoneer S, smaller than the current behemoth, 400 mile range, 0-60 in ~3.5 seconds, super fast charging (of course, all claimed):





(Sure that'll be pricey)


And finally, what I was hoping to see, though it was a different name 

The new Recon!  That's basically the BEV Wrangler, and I even understand that name was used for a Wrangler package/model at some point.

The Recon may be a "day one" pre-order/order for us - and they're saying orders will begin in '23 with deliveries in '24 which would be perfect timing for us and the current Wrangler.


True trail-rated capability with Jeep Selec-Terrain traction management system, e-locker axle technology, under-body protection, tow hooks and aggressive off-road tires
Authentic Jeep open-air freedom with a one-touch powertop, removable doors and glass
The latest generation Uconnect system, including detailed travel guides of the most notable off-road trails

Sure, there's a few kind of notable unknowns, price, and range, the latter based on their new platform specs, ground up design, etc., I can't imagine the Recon not having at least 250, if not a bit higher (bigger, more weight, but larger battery).


----------



## Herdfan

Cmaier said:


> They don't all charge simultaneously, first of all. And charger use doesn't spike - it's predictable.  And people tend to charge their cars when usage is low (i.e. early morning/late night) to save money.




Even those who charge during the day at their workplace, sometimes for free?


----------



## Nycturne

TBL said:


> So...California's current power grid can't support AC usage on a hot day; how is it going to support all these EVs charging once gas-powered cars are fully phased out?




The duck curve for grids where solar is abundant means that during the day itself, power is readily available, but there’s still that peak period during 4-9pm where solar isn’t as good, but you’ve got folks trying to do more at home (dinner, coming home from work, etc). I’d argue that PG&E’s mismanagement of the aging transmission infrastructure doesn’t help here either.

Here’s another way to look at it: Electric stoves we can consider to be about 2kW. Central A/C units vary a lot, but let’s say around 3kW while it runs. So during the 4-9pm peak time, if I’m cooking and running the A/C, that can easily be a 5kW draw on the grid right as a bunch of other homes are all trying to do the same thing.

L1 chargers run at just over 1kW, and can top up a BEV after a commute surprisingly well overnight. L2 chargers can be up to 11kW, but a 7.6kW L2 charger is more than enough for many. An ID.4 with a 77kWh battery can charge off a 7.6kW charger fully overnight, but realistically for a 40mi commute like mine, would top up in under 2 hours. So charging even slower than that is absolutely an option.

As Cmaier points out, you don’t need to be charging right as you get home. TOU incentives and “smart” L2 chargers can ensure you have a topped up battery in the morning without charging during peak demand. And unless you are burning the vehicles entire capacity every day, you shouldn’t be in a situation of “must charge now or else” right as you get home. With my commute and an ID.4, I’d expect to be able to go 3 days of normal use without recharging, assuming a daily commute and some short-range errands.



Herdfan said:


> Even those who charge during the day at their workplace, sometimes for free?




That sort of charging is actually beneficial, due to the duck curve. The excess of solar during the middle of the day means that in these situations, charging at work is _preferred_ to trying to charge at 4-9pm as you get home from work.

EDIT: This is also why one way to help reduce the peak demand on days like this is to over-cool your house using the A/C before the peak period starts, and use the house itself as a sort of thermal battery to ride out the peak hours with the A/C off.


----------



## DT

Holy heck, hahaha, the MR EV thread ...

*FRESH DUMB HAS ENTERED THE CHAT*


----------



## DT

More on the Ioniq 5 N.   High performance hatch?  Sure!

Photo is just a rendering but based on the real, existing vehicle, it could be pretty close:














						Hyundai exec: Ioniq 5 N will be "much faster" than i30 N
					

The Hyundai Ioniq N promises to not only be the most powerful, but also the fastest Hyundai ever made.




					uk.motor1.com
				





However, when asked about an exact power figure Biermann remained coy:



> _"It’s not finalised, it could be 580, 600, 620 PS [427kW, 441kW, 456kW]. It’s a lot.”_


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Holy heck, hahaha, the MR EV thread ...
> 
> *FRESH DUMB HAS ENTERED THE CHAT*




Yeah…..

Can we get RP back? Rather deal with him.


----------



## Nycturne

DT said:


> Holy heck, hahaha, the MR EV thread ...
> 
> *FRESH DUMB HAS ENTERED THE CHAT*




@Apple fanboy taking on some definite heavy lifting there against the usual rhetoric.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Nycturne said:


> @Apple fanboy taking on some definite heavy lifting there against the usual rhetoric.



Trying (and failing) me thinks.


----------



## Apple fanboy

quagmire said:


> Yeah…..
> 
> Can we get RP back? Rather deal with him.



No. Just no. His Mum banned him after she found out he called the internet police on @Eric!


----------



## Nycturne

With VW continuing to struggle, I did get a hold of a local dealership that won’t do markups on the Ioniq 5. The markups being the reason I removed it from consideration before, as the price jumps into Model Y territory. The wait list is around 5-7 months, which is about what I’m expecting on the ID.4 still. The bad news is that they require a non-refundable deposit, so I really want to be able to drive one of these before I put money down, but nobody has one available to drive except on Turo.


----------



## DT

I kind of wished I would've driven an Ioniq 5 at the NYC Auto Show, they had a whole track setup (indoor and outdoor), just a bit of a wait.   I did sit in in one


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> I kind of wished I would've driven an Ioniq 5 at the NYC Auto Show, they had a whole track setup (indoor and outdoor), just a bit of a wait.   I did sit in in one
> 
> 
> View attachment 17643




That interior alone will prevent me from buying one despite loving the exterior design. 

It just screams cheap.... Worse than GM interiors at their worst.


----------



## Nycturne

Got invited to lock my ID.4 reservation (almost 3 months from reservation to lock), which means they are hoping to start sending these into the production queue at Chattanooga in the coming weeks/months. Still refundable, so not much reason not to put the money down and stay in line as long as possible. I also have an Ioniq 5 that I'm renting for a couple days this week that I need to go pick up tomorrow. Then I'll decide if it's worth the risk of putting down a non-refundable deposit there. Honestly, at least on paper, these two are the closest to what I actually want out of a car. But it's trade offs between the two.

VW's reputation at the moment for QC isn't as good as Hyundai's (more reports of issues, more serious issues reported), and VW has yet to push out a single software update in the US, despite those updates including fixes for issues folks are actively hitting and showing up on new cars. Put bluntly, VW has a software deployment problem and seemingly higher chance of hitting issues with the electric drivetrain. However, the ID.4 was actually a really good _car_, and more intended for light towing and hitch use (something I like). I also prefer the more curved, if a little bland, look of the ID.4. It's also a bit cheaper than the Ioniq. I don't hate the Ionic 5's exterior, but I honestly am not in love with it either. It winds up _looking_ like it's covered in plastic more than other cars, because of the silver trim bits. The ID.4 was at just the perfect height to get into and out of for me and the partner as well, with comfortable seats. Hyundai's steering wheel and dash controls are better than the ID.4 though, and that's a pretty big deal. Having rocker switches that _look_ like touch controls on the steering wheel is better than actual touch controls. Having some physical buttons and a volume knob is good. Being able to deliver software updates and fix issues (and create new ones apparently) is very helpful.

I think VW of America did a bit of a self-own with the 2023 color/interior options though, which does make the light interiors on the Hyundai more appealing.

I guess I'll see if the interior materials feel as bad as some folks say (quagmire isn't the only one that's commented on the interior materials), and how the Ioniq 5 feels to drive. Honestly, the main thing that would tip me over to the Ioniq 5 is the controls/reliability/comfort during the rental period. But I think it's going to be a tough call, I wouldn't be surprised if I have a reservation on both. :|


----------



## Nycturne

Yeah, I see what folks mean about the cheap interior. That same silver-coated plastic you’d find on cheap electronics, lots of hard touch plastics on the lower trim level. The screens are fine to me though, no complaints there. Not sure I like the seats. Hug my back a bit too aggressively compared to the Outback and ID.4. And the cargo area feels small even though at least in width and depth it isn’t much different than an ID.4. The suspension is fine, but something just feels “off” about it compared to what I’m used to. It feels a lot like an Impreza-style hatchback that got inflated in size and made into an EV, in many ways. 

But boy does the steering wheel beat VW‘s, and the whole car feels a lot more familiar to someone coming from other Japanese or Korean cars. And the driver assist features are more intuitive to me trying to use them without any instruction on the freeway. The cabin is _dead quiet_. The ID.4 cabin is also quiet, but I find the controls a little more quirky. I’d get used to them fine, but it is a compromise. Also a fan of the adjustable regen paddles on the Ioniq 5. In terms of control, I kinda have to give it to Hyundai as the tech is just better integrated and sorted.

In terms of looks, I still think I like the ID.4 better. The Ioniq 5 exterior is… fine. But I think bringing that silver-coated plastic out to the exterior was a mistake, and cheapens the rest of the design, and that the retro-future may not age all that well compared to Tesla’s minimalistic design language. The ID.4 may be a bit boring, but it also feels a bit more comfortable using shapes that would be mostly at home on a Subaru. 

I could definitely get used to charging at home though. That is huge. Drive home, plug in for a couple hours to top up, and pretty much always have a mostly full tank ready to go? That will spoil me, big time.


----------



## DT

@Nycturne 

Funny, I had almost the exact same take (and a post sitting in the editor I never made ...) about the Ioniq 5 as you, specifically this:



> But I think bringing that silver-coated plastic out to the exterior was a mistake, and cheapens the rest of the design, and that the retro-future may not age all that well compared to Tesla’s minimalistic design language.




The design is very quirky, it's also very present, so in a couple of years, when retro isn't a thing, it might age poorly.  That's the thing with car designs, either it's a big swing, and if it connects, can become classic, or, it's minimal, functional, and it's kind of age resistant.  I think the latter can be done while having some character, unique design elements, but it's a tricky balance.

Home charging is so much of a game changer.  Today, I have a long-er-ish distance drop off, I'll charge to 100%, make the round trip of ~200 miles, and when I'm home, just plug in.  No stop, no hassle, and the trip will cost ~$6


----------



## Yoused

DT said:


> Home charging is so much of a game changer.




Visions of a world without gas stations. Tens of thousands of convenience stores will shrivel on the vine.


----------



## Eric

Nycturne said:


> Yeah, I see what folks mean about the cheap interior. That same silver-coated plastic you’d find on cheap electronics, lots of hard touch plastics on the lower trim level. The screens are fine to me though, no complaints there. Not sure I like the seats. Hug my back a bit too aggressively compared to the Outback and ID.4. And the cargo area feels small even though at least in width and depth it isn’t much different than an ID.4. The suspension is fine, but something just feels “off” about it compared to what I’m used to. It feels a lot like an Impreza-style hatchback that got inflated in size and made into an EV, in many ways.
> 
> But boy does the steering wheel beat VW‘s, and the whole car feels a lot more familiar to someone coming from other Japanese or Korean cars. And the driver assist features are more intuitive to me trying to use them without any instruction on the freeway. The cabin is _dead quiet_. The ID.4 cabin is also quiet, but I find the controls a little more quirky. I’d get used to them fine, but it is a compromise. Also a fan of the adjustable regen paddles on the Ioniq 5. In terms of control, I kinda have to give it to Hyundai as the tech is just better integrated and sorted.
> 
> In terms of looks, I still think I like the ID.4 better. The Ioniq 5 exterior is… fine. But I think bringing that silver-coated plastic out to the exterior was a mistake, and cheapens the rest of the design, and that the retro-future may not age all that well compared to Tesla’s minimalistic design language. The ID.4 may be a bit boring, but it also feels a bit more comfortable using shapes that would be mostly at home on a Subaru.
> 
> I could definitely get used to charging at home though. That is huge. Drive home, plug in for a couple hours to top up, and pretty much always have a mostly full tank ready to go? That will spoil me, big time.



Home charging is by far the biggest benefit for me, no more going on long trips and having to worry about gassing up again. You come home with a low battery, plug in and forget about it. After using it for a while now I could never see going back to ICE, going to a gas station definitely feels like it would be a huge step backwards.


----------



## Nycturne

DT said:


> The design is very quirky, it's also very present, so in a couple of years, when retro isn't a thing, it might age poorly.  That's the thing with car designs, either it's a big swing, and if it connects, can become classic, or, it's minimal, functional, and it's kind of age resistant.  I think the latter can be done while having some character, unique design elements, but it's a tricky balance.



And unfortunately the silver trim won’t age well in a literal sense either. The rental has under 5000mi on it, and the silver trim on the front is starting to show some of the black plastic underneath.

It’s probably still the best tech package in this price range, and the 800V battery platform is a clear advantage as well for the time being, but the cost is it comes in a physical package that is cost cut. The Genesis GV60 might be the better pick if you really want the tech platform and are willing to spend 60k to get it with higher end materials and looks. But good luck finding one in the US.

I’ve still got today and tomorrow with the Ioniq 5, but at least initial impressions suggest I’m not going to put a non-refundable deposit down. And the GV60 is just getting to be a little too expensive for my tastes/budget. 



DT said:


> Home charging is so much of a game changer.  Today, I have a long-er-ish distance drop off, I'll charge to 100%, make the round trip of ~200 miles, and when I'm home, just plug in.  No stop, no hassle, and the trip will cost ~$6




Yeah, fuel costs in the 3c/mi range are very nice, which is about what I’d pay for either of these EVs. I’m still paying around 18c/mi in the Outback after gas prices have come down a bit.

I do wonder what the DCFC network will look like in 10 years. I like to road trip in the PNW, so I will be wanting some ability to make those longer trips consistently, but it seems like we’re still very much in early days, and the US federal funds for building out the charging network is going to pump a lot of money into the market in the next 4 years or so.


----------



## DT

Oh yeah, some material choices don't hold up well to sun, weather in general.  Our DD/RT was mostly parked outside, I kept it super clean, took good care of the paint, and when we bought/sold it, the paint was mint, the interior mostly looked new - but all the plastic window borders were super washed out, and that was only 3 years and that side of the house is shady about 1/2 the day.

(FWIW, we reconfigured and now both cars go into the garage )

I've been seeing the GV60 come up in a lot of online reviews, comparisons, decently quick with some packages, like the design for what it is, but the range is low, the price is high (~$70K how I'd buy it).   We're not "Genesis people" if that makes sense[?]  It doesn't groove with our personalities and lifestyle vibe.  Like I would never own a Mercedes, even though some are stunning designs (hahaha, not factoring in the price ...)

10 years I can't even get my head around (seriously, that means I'll have a 24 year old daughter ...   )

I hope there's some acceleration in the build out.  Based on the several major players, federal funding, plans I've seen by big manufacturers like Ford and GM, and players in the power industry (like FPL), I think we'll see major growth in the next 4 years, but it'll probably be that 10 year milestone where it's like gas.

I even just ordered the OEM Tesla CCS adapter, assuming it was worth it even over the next couple of years (I wouldn't be surprised if my next car is CSS, the wife's will be almost for sure).


----------



## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> Home charging is by far the biggest benefit for me, no more going on long trips and having to worry about gassing up again. You come home with a low battery, plug in and forget about it. After using it for a while now I could never see going back to ICE, going to a gas station definitely feels like it would be a huge step backwards.



I don’t like home charging. Work charging is sooooo much better!


----------



## Nycturne

Well, some good news on the ID.4 front. Movement is happening on reservations. My lock is now in the "request production" stage, and folks are already getting VINs assigned from the cars VW has been producing in Tennessee since July. So depending on if mine needs to be added to the production queue vs assigned from the lot, good chance I'll see it before Christmas.



DT said:


> I've been seeing the GV60 come up in a lot of online reviews, comparisons, decently quick with some packages, like the design for what it is, but the range is low, the price is high (~$70K how I'd buy it).   We're not "Genesis people" if that makes sense[?]  It doesn't groove with our personalities and lifestyle vibe.  Like I would never own a Mercedes, even though some are stunning designs (hahaha, not factoring in the price ...)




Yeah, I'm not much for that tier of brands (Genesis, Lexus, Audi, etc). I just jump up the trims a little to get creature comforts and am happy.



DT said:


> I hope there's some acceleration in the build out.  Based on the several major players, federal funding, plans I've seen by big manufacturers like Ford and GM, and players in the power industry (like FPL), I think we'll see major growth in the next 4 years, but it'll probably be that 10 year milestone where it's like gas.
> 
> I even just ordered the OEM Tesla CCS adapter, assuming it was worth it even over the next couple of years (I wouldn't be surprised if my next car is CSS, the wife's will be almost for sure).




I wonder how long Tesla can hold out on CCS at this point before they start phasing out their connector. V3 Superchargers in Europe are CCS only, and the Model 3 uses the Type 2 CCS socket there. They can probably hold on for a while in the US, but I wouldn't be surprised if things change 10 years from now.


----------



## DT

I was interested in Ryan's take on the Ioniq 5, he's a good EV review source, and he specifically reviewed the SE/"base" model which was even more interesting (though it's still pricey)


----------



## DT

DT said:


> Holy heck, hahaha, the MR EV thread ...
> 
> *FRESH DUMB HAS ENTERED THE CHAT*




Wow, a long time member posted a bunch of crazy political nonsense, got called out, and they actually cancelled their account. 

Looks like there's a queue of anti-EV goons though, the new one (only a member for a few months) looks like fun


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Wow, a long time member posted a bunch of crazy political nonsense, got called out, and they actually cancelled their account.
> 
> Looks like there's a queue of anti-EV goons though, the new one (only a member for a few months) looks like fun




Guess I should take the blame for cancelling her..... I reported her posts for going political. 

Sorry everyone! 

Seriously speaking...... Some people really can't help but bring in politics into non-political threads or when the forum has no politics rules then bitch they are getting censored when said rules are enforced. I reported the posts due to breaking the rules than disagreeing with her political posts. Bet she doesn't see it that way. 

Same crap happened when I was a mod at a GM message board. Deleted political posts that had no bearing to the industry, members claiming censorship.


----------



## fischersd

DT said:


> Looks like there's a queue of anti-EV goons though, the new one (only a member for a few months) looks like fun



All the rednecks with their pickup trucks.  How will they feel manly if they're not spewing diesel fumes everywhere???


----------



## DT

Speaking of "MUH TRUCK", I saw my first Rivian out in the wild last week, it really has quite a presence, it's unique and stylized while having a very traditional truck design, really nice lines, muscular fenders, definitely quick, driver stepped on it a bit coming out of this slow area and it shot forward in a sort of physics defying way


----------



## Nycturne

Yeah, I saw my first Rivian when I was driving to work in the rented Ioniq 5. Also saw my second Ioniq 5 on the road (the rented one being the first) during that commute. It seems like I’ve been seeing more non-Tesla BEVs lately. Mach Es, a couple ID.4s, etc. Maybe I just know what to look for after scoping out the field.

It’s not bad looking, I am just not a truck person so don’t have much of an educated opinion on them other than I am not a fan of the headlights. I probably would have gone with circular headlights myself.


----------



## rdrr

DT said:


> Speaking of "MUH TRUCK", I saw my first Rivian out in the wild last week, it really has quite a presence, it's unique and stylized while having a very traditional truck design, really nice lines, muscular fenders, definitely quick, driver stepped on it a bit coming out of this slow area and it shot forward in a sort of physics defying way



I have seen two Rivian in the wild in the metro Boston area.  I like the looks and wondered how they handle.


----------



## Yoused

Rivians have that weird bootleg mode, where you can make the motors on side reverse relative to the other.


----------



## Hrafn

DT said:


> Holy heck, hahaha, the MR EV thread ...
> 
> *FRESH DUMB HAS ENTERED THE CHAT*



Holy crap! And now she's cancelled?  Something went down I missed.


----------



## Herdfan

fischersd said:


> All the rednecks with their pickup trucks.  How will they feel manly if they're not spewing diesel fumes everywhere???




Sad. 

Actually my SCR truck spews very little fumes.  It can be hard to tell it is a diesel standing next to it.  Well by smell, the tapping of the rockers is a dead give away.   

But after pulling 10K# of large enclosed trailer through the mountains this past weekend and still averaged close to 14 MPG, I was glad to have it over a gasser.


----------



## DT

Hrafn said:


> Holy crap! And now she's cancelled?  Something went down I missed.




Without taking this thread too far off topic, she jumped into the EV thread, made a few technically inaccurate posts (you could tell their was an underlying anti-EV sentiment ...) and was corrected, but then made a few posts about drump, something about the current admin disparaging her Hispanic heritage[?], just  inappropriate and way off topic - but I looked at a few other recent posts and they were all the same sort of rantings/ramblings, I think she was really on the edge before that thread.  For the record, that status is self-imposed, it's a request by the user to terminate their account.


----------



## Hrafn

DT said:


> Without taking this thread too far off topic, she jumped into the EV thread, made a few technically inaccurate posts (you could tell their was an underlying anti-EV sentiment ...) and was corrected, but then made a few posts about drump, something about the current admin disparaging her Hispanic heritage[?], just  inappropriate and way off topic - but I looked at a few other recent posts and they were all the same sort of rantings/ramblings, I think she was really on the edge before that thread.  For the record, that status is self-imposed, it's a request by the user to terminate their account.



I've been looking at EVs, and with the price of modestly used ICE, it's hard to tell what makes sense now.  For years I went with Click and Clack's suggestion to buy a junker and run it into the ground, but now that's not always easy to do.  

Sucks that folks lie to push an ideology.


----------



## DT

Livestream for the Polestar 3 press event:


----------



## Nycturne

Polestar 3 looks interesting, but a bit out of my desired price range. The Honda Prologue doesn't look half bad though. Need more details.

ID.4 is still in the queue with an estimated delivery window of Dec-Feb. Earliest manufacturing can start is mid-Nov because of parts shortages for the 360 camera system and (for some reason) the power folding mirrors on the high end trim of the 2023. Fun.


----------



## DT

Which model/variant did you reserve?


----------



## Yoused

It may be time for an elecrtic beetle. I, personally, would enjoy having a BEV that lacks _all of the computerized bullshit_ (and is practical to repair), and I suspect that I may not be the only luddite around.


----------



## Nycturne

Yoused said:


> It may be time for an elecrtic beetle. I, personally, would enjoy having a BEV that lacks _all of the computerized bullshit_ (and is practical to repair), and I suspect that I may not be the only luddite around.




The irony is that EVs bring the computerization even deeper into the drivetrain. Battery controllers for charging and heat management. Cooling/heating loops to manage battery temperature for better range and faster charging in more weather conditions meaning the battery controllers need to talk to the controllers for the HVAC system. Regen means more drive-by-wire systems, either via one-pedal driving modes, or blended braking. That horse is unfortunately truly dead, I think.

Repairability though should still be a priority, I agree. The MEB platform VW uses at least has some ability to pull apart the battery pack and replace individual modules or the battery controller which helps a bit when it comes to repair costs, and may or may not help with replacement costs down the road. VW seems keen on repurposing old MEB batteries into energy storage projects and the like down the road.  



DT said:


> Which model/variant did you reserve?




It was a 2022 AWD Pro S that got converted to a 2022 AWD Pro S, and when I was asked to lock, I decided to splurge on the AWD Pro S Plus instead.

Kinda kicking myself because those that locked on the same day as I did but kept the AWD Pro S trim have their vehicles on trains. Getting a 2023 ID.4 before Dec 31st is going to be the only way to get it with the tax credit, and unless production starts on mine in Nov, it‘s definitely not happening.


----------



## DT

Putting this here as it really applies to all EVs, especially when you mostly charge from home


----------



## Nycturne

Yeah, I was doing the math a while back comparing the cost per mile in fuel. It was eye-opening, to be honest. 

My Outback was 20.9c a mile for fuel at the last fill up (5.30$/gal). A conservative estimate is that I should be able to get about 3mi/kWh, at 10.47c/kWh, or about 3.49c/mi. Savings per year would be very similar to your numbers.   

Since the Ioniq 5 I rented was able to do a bit better than 3.2mi/kWh during my commute, this seems like a reasonable estimate.


----------



## Apple fanboy

As I charge about 98% for free at work it’s fine. But the electric price hike here in the UK isn’t helping the shift. Especially when you factor in the car cost as well.


----------



## DT

Nycturne said:


> Yeah, I was doing the math a while back comparing the cost per mile in fuel. It was eye-opening, to be honest.
> 
> My Outback was 20.9c a mile for fuel at the last fill up (5.30$/gal). A conservative estimate is that I should be able to get about 3mi/kWh, at 10.47c/kWh, or about 3.49c/mi. Savings per year would be very similar to your numbers.
> 
> Since the Ioniq 5 I rented was able to do a bit better than 3.2mi/kWh during my commute, this seems like a reasonable estimate.




I should probably qualify my stats a bit:

We do a trip several times a year down to Orlando, where the destination has free charging.

Also, that was at some peak gas costs, so compared to what I'm seeing at gas prices right now,  instead of 4.4x more gas cost, at the moment it's probably more like 3.8-ish (and obviously dependent on the MPG of the ICE vehicle being compared).

I also like using the $ per mile like you referenced, it's an easy comparison, I'm at about $0.035, so I guess $0.04 round up, that's with me pulling about 305-310 Wh/mile average (i.e., being a little heavy footed around town, and getting out of the MPH sweet spot on the highway, like 77-78), and going back to our previous cars, they'd be over $0.12, so a good 4:1 cost difference (though those weren't super efficient ICE vehicles).

Bottom line is unless gas get under $2/g and/or you're driving an ICE vehicle with exceptional efficiency (50MPG+), I don't see the BEV losing it's consumables cost advantage any time soon (and that doesn't even factor in other ICE consumables like oil).


----------



## DT

Kia and Hyundai seemed to be providing a more "entry level" EV, but for '23 Kia has dropped their base model EV6, so now the starting price is ~$50K









						2023 Kia EV6 Base Trim Dropped, Starting Price Jumps To $50,000
					

This situation is becoming all too common among new electric cars and SUVs. Cheaper trims are going away and prices are climbing. Hopefully, it will stabilize.




					insideevs.com
				




And I guess they're losing the $7500 tax credit in the short term, to be replaced by the IRA, but I'm reading there's some kind of rule that means the EV6 isn't applicable (under the new plan, something about sourcing rules).

Holy smokes, that model when factoring in the previous tax credit may have gone up as much as $15,000


----------



## DT

Wow, the 2023 Prius looks pretty great:









						2023 Toyota Prius Looks Shockingly Cool
					

The redesigned hybrid has completely new styling and a reworked powertrain with way more horsepower than before.




					www.caranddriver.com


----------



## cloudflare420

Who would've thought we would be saying the Prius looks great..

It also should be a full EV. Stop with the hybrid nonsense. It's time to move on


----------



## Apple fanboy

In UK news they have announced we will have to pay car tax (road tax) from 2025. Hardly a shock as the government need every penny they can get. Still I'm not paying them a penny in fuel duty so there is that....!


----------



## turbineseaplane

Prius looks amazing and I'm glad they are still making it
But...they really needed to use this refresh to finally have a full EV option in the Prius lineup

Even the Prime really needs a bit more battery range _(to be worth it for colder climates)_


----------



## diamond.g

turbineseaplane said:


> Prius looks amazing and I'm glad they are still making it
> But...they really needed to use this refresh to finally have a full EV option in the Prius lineup
> 
> Even the Prime really needs a bit more battery range _(to be worth it for colder climates)_



Toyota still doesn't think full electric is going to be the future.


----------



## turbineseaplane

diamond.g said:


> Toyota still doesn't think full electric is going to be the future.




Frustrating. 
I’m already on my 2nd EV
love love love it


----------



## SuperMatt

diamond.g said:


> Toyota still doesn't think full electric is going to be the future.



That’s not entirely true. While other companies went for plug-in cars, Toyota pursued hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. That turned out to be a bad strategy. So now they lobby against EVs until they can catch up. More background here:









						Toyota bet wrong on EVs, so now it’s lobbying to slow the transition
					

Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen.




					arstechnica.com


----------



## diamond.g

SuperMatt said:


> That’s not entirely true. While other companies went for plug-in cars, Toyota pursued hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. That turned out to be a bad strategy. So now they lobby against EVs until they can catch up. More background here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toyota bet wrong on EVs, so now it’s lobbying to slow the transition
> 
> 
> Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arstechnica.com



Maybe I should have said BEV instead of full.


----------



## fischersd

Toyota's also had a hell of a time keeping up on hybrid production.  Wait time on the Rav4 hybrid is now 2 years.  My local dealer isn't even taking orders for the Rav4 Prime anymore as they can't give an ETA - they only received 4 of the backordered units this year.  (last time they were openly taking orders for the Prime, the wait time was 3 years).

They said they could likely get me my purchase price back on my 2021 Rav4 hybrid if I was willing to trade it in on something they have in stock.  Heh.  No chance.


----------



## Nycturne

Well, not exactly how I wanted to do it, but I did join the EV club today. Picked up a 2022 ID.4. With how things were going, I was going to be out the tax credit since I wouldn’t be able to get a hold of a 2023 by the end of the year without a lot of luck, so why not go with the cheaper 2022 if I’m not getting the credit? Especially when some of the features this one has got moved to the higher trim on the 2023, and it has the light interior which I prefer, but they kinda ruined it for me in the 2023. 

Only added about 20 miles to the thing today, but liking it. Just in time to get back to the office after the recent snow storms. Somewhat hilariously, I’m getting tripped up a bit expecting certain things to be different from the Subaru I’ve been driving, when they are actually the same. I feel like Kryten taking his piloting test.


----------



## Eric

Nycturne said:


> Well, not exactly how I wanted to do it, but I did join the EV club today. Picked up a 2022 ID.4. With how things were going, I was going to be out the tax credit since I wouldn’t be able to get a hold of a 2023 by the end of the year without a lot of luck, so why not go with the cheaper 2022 if I’m not getting the credit? Especially when some of the features this one has got moved to the higher trim on the 2023, and it has the light interior which I prefer, but they kinda ruined it for me in the 2023.
> 
> Only added about 20 miles to the thing today, but liking it. Just in time to get back to the office after the recent snow storms. Somewhat hilariously, I’m getting tripped up a bit expecting certain things to be different from the Subaru I’ve been driving, when they are actually the same. I feel like Kryten taking his piloting test.
> 
> View attachment 19885



Wow, had no idea this even existed until now. Looks like a pretty decent car for the price with a good amount of range, I would be interested to hear how well the lane keep and automation works. Congrats man!


----------



## Nycturne

Eric said:


> Wow, had no idea this even existed until now. Looks like a pretty decent car for the price with a good amount of range, I would be interested to hear how well the lane keep and automation works. Congrats man!




There’s two versions of the lane keeping. One that’s meant as collision avoidance, and one that’s part of travel assist. When I test drove the 2021 version in the summer, I turned off the former during the test drive because of false “lane departure” signals it was acting on and applying inputs to the wheel when it shouldn’t. Much like my Outback, it gets a bit confused if the road surface isn’t what it expects, like when you might see paving stones used at larger pedestrian crossings in mixed-use areas that are starting to crop up where I live. The Outback would also nag me with lane departure warnings on roads with lots of sealed cracks. Need to see how well the ID.4 handles those. 

Haven’t tried the travel assist feature at all yet. I’m a bit of a luddite when it comes to driver automation. Love adaptive cruise control though. Probably try out travel assist after some time getting used to the vehicle. 

Software is the weak point in the ID.4 compared to something like the Ioniq 5. And VW has had some massive teething issues getting OTA updates going. That said, at least for the purpose of: plug in CarPlay, use Siri, drive from A to B, the 2022 fixed the quirks that bugged me about the software the 2021 had. So at least with the drives I’ve done so far, it’s been just as nice as the Outback to drive, only with 100+ extra HP and so much extra torque. Which is really all I wanted. Something like the Outback or Forester in EV form. And it has enough ground clearance for the sort of poorly maintained dirt/gravel roads I’d be using it on from time to time. 

The OTA update issues are interesting though. It looks like they used standard 12V starter batteries in the 2021s, and then discovered that the process of the update can be a real problem on those batteries. So they are doing a service campaign to replace _all_ the batteries on 2021s with something better that can handle the long OTA update process (and will probably be better for EV use all up). But sourcing the batteries, getting service centers trained and ready, and shipping them out has apparently been a bit of a pain. The fact that VW is still hammering away at this to get it done so that the 2021s can get all the fixes the 2022/2023 got I think is a positive sign. Things got hard, and instead of just cutting their losses, they seem committed to making it work.

Also like the fact that the AWD comes with the wiring for a 7-pin trailer socket ready to go along with the mount for the socket (2023 includes the socket too, but it’s like a 10$ part off Amazon), and a hitch receiver. Also like that their hitch receiver is bolted to the tow bar, making it a simple process to switch it from a 1.25” to 2” receiver that can be done in a few minutes with a torque wrench. I’ll need to do that before spring so I can use my 2“ bike rack on it.


----------



## Nycturne

Have a 7-pin socket ready and waiting to be installed, and a 2" hitch receiver due in on Friday. Just need to see if anyone I know has a torque wrench to install the receiver with. Otherwise gotta see how much a shop charges on 5 minutes of labor, and compare it to the cost of just buying a torque wrench.

Still enjoying the car after the usual seat adjustments trying to figure out how my body wants to sit in this car. Remote access to the climate controls is nice. The benefits of having a remote start system in winter to turn on cabin heat and defrost without the noise. Takes up to a minute for the car to respond, so have to take that into account.


----------



## Nycturne

One last update while I'm still in the honeymoon phase with this car:

Gave travel assist a try on the way to work this morning because traffic was lighter than usual and I'm more used to how the car behaves. Worked better than I expected. Managed to stick to the center of the lanes quite well, even in areas that would trigger the lane departure warning on Subaru's Eyesight with heavy crack repair and morning glare. It would sometimes get a little tripped up for a brief moment, but corrected itself in well under a second, before it required my intervention or deviated much from the lane center. 

Still not at the point where I'd trust the version of lane keeping meant to avoid collisions around pedestrians yet, but still pleased it isn't hot garbage. 

Downside: The AWD Pro S comes with a windscreen defroster which saved my butt this morning by melting the frost and letting me drive off in less than 30 seconds. It doesn't include defrosters for the rear side mirrors though. Why? Defrosting those is power efficient and can be done with a small heating element behind the mirror. I do miss that from my Subaru.


----------



## Eric

Nycturne said:


> One last update while I'm still in the honeymoon phase with this car:
> 
> Gave travel assist a try on the way to work this morning because traffic was lighter than usual and I'm more used to how the car behaves. Worked better than I expected. Managed to stick to the center of the lanes quite well, even in areas that would trigger the lane departure warning on Subaru's Eyesight with heavy crack repair and morning glare. It would sometimes get a little tripped up for a brief moment, but corrected itself in well under a second, before it required my intervention or deviated much from the lane center.
> 
> Still not at the point where I'd trust the version of lane keeping meant to avoid collisions around pedestrians yet, but still pleased it isn't hot garbage.
> 
> Downside: The AWD Pro S comes with a windscreen defroster which saved my butt this morning by melting the frost and letting me drive off in less than 30 seconds. It doesn't include defrosters for the rear side mirrors though. Why? Defrosting those is power efficient and can be done with a small heating element behind the mirror. I do miss that from my Subaru.



Good to know, I know with my BMW the best part of that system was when it was in stop and go traffic as you could pretty much let the car go when it was crawling like that. Even with my Tesla, which reads lines perfectly 100% of the time it seems, when I get that morning glare and hard to see lines I just disengage the system entirely just to be safe. In fact no matter how much I trust a system, even with the steering wheel hack so I never have to touch it, I find myself turning it all of in situations I find even mildly questionable. Most of this is common sense to me.


----------



## Nycturne

Eric said:


> Good to know, I know with my BMW the best part of that system was when it was in stop and go traffic as you could pretty much let the car go when it was crawling like that. Even with my Tesla, which reads lines perfectly 100% of the time it seems, when I get that morning glare and hard to see lines I just disengage the system entirely just to be safe. In fact no matter how much I trust a system, even with the steering wheel hack so I never have to touch it, I find myself turning it all of in situations I find even mildly questionable. Most of this is common sense to me.




Yeah, the adaptive cruise control on the Subaru was pretty good for that, and the ID.4 is a bit better with less aggressive acceleration/braking. But this is the first car that I've owned that had the ability to automatically lane center that actually works. The Subaru had it, but it rarely identified the lines well enough to engage. So I'm partly trying to figure out how well it works when there's fewer people on the road. 

There's another lane keep feature for surface streets, but that I have seen get confused in my test drive of the 2021, so I leave it off.


----------



## Eric

Nycturne said:


> Yeah, the adaptive cruise control on the Subaru was pretty good for that, and the ID.4 is a bit better with less aggressive acceleration/braking. But this is the first car that I've owned that had the ability to automatically lane center that actually works. The Subaru had it, but it rarely identified the lines well enough to engage. So I'm partly trying to figure out how well it works when there's fewer people on the road.
> 
> There's another lane keep feature for surface streets, but that I have seen get confused in my test drive of the 2021, so I leave it off.



Does it center? That's the biggest difference between the Tesla and my older BMW which was basically like bumper bowling and constantly drifting within the lane, it's more safety departure than anything.


----------



## cloudflare420

Nycturne said:


> It doesn't include defrosters for the rear side mirrors though. Why? Defrosting those is power efficient and can be done with a small heating element behind the mirror. I do miss that from my Subaru.




Look at the side mirror controls. You have to turn the knob to the bottom right to use the mirror defrosters. All VAG cars do this.


----------



## Nycturne

cloudflare420 said:


> Look at the side mirror controls. You have to turn the knob to the bottom right to use the mirror defrosters. All VAG cars do this.




Hah, I’ll have to look at this again. I even looked in the manual which made no mention of it.

EDIT: Manual doesn’t refer to defrost with the mirrors, just calling them heaters. Explains why search was dry.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Nycturne said:


> Have a 7-pin socket ready and waiting to be installed, and a 2" hitch receiver due in on Friday. Just need to see if anyone I know has a torque wrench to install the receiver with. Otherwise gotta see how much a shop charges on 5 minutes of labor, and compare it to the cost of just buying a torque wrench.
> 
> Still enjoying the car after the usual seat adjustments trying to figure out how my body wants to sit in this car. Remote access to the climate controls is nice. The benefits of having a remote start system in winter to turn on cabin heat and defrost without the noise. Takes up to a minute for the car to respond, so have to take that into account.



I just tell mine what time I’m leaving and it defrosts it for then. Very convenient. Especially as we are having a server winter.


----------



## Apple fanboy

So before I got sick with COVID I had to drive to London. On the way back there was a bit of a queue situation at the services. 
Anyway there was a guy there with an Audi etron. He’d only had it a week. No one had shown him how to pull out the additional stopper underneath the charging port to use DC charging. He had to stop 5 times. What a muppet. You’d think he might have done a bit of research.


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## Nycturne

Apple fanboy said:


> I just tell mine what time I’m leaving and it defrosts it for then. Very convenient. Especially as we are having a server winter.




The downside to VW and the ID.4 is that their tech is behind a lot of the competition, especially compared to premium brands like BMW. So I can set a departure schedule _in_ the car, but not from the app. But since my departure schedule isn’t consistent, it’s not as useful as just remembering to turn on the heat/defrost from my phone before I start gathering stuff together to leave.

Sadly, turning on defrost from the app doesn’t seem to engage the side mirror heaters. So that’s fun. But I will say, it’s a revelation to be able to defrost the front windshield in 30 seconds, rather than having to blow hot air at it. 



Apple fanboy said:


> Anyway there was a guy there with an Audi etron. He’d only had it a week. No one had shown him how to pull out the additional stopper underneath the charging port to use DC charging. He had to stop 5 times. What a muppet. You’d think he might have done a bit of research.




Dealers will be dealers. My VW/Audi dealer was a lot more hands on trying to make sure I knew what I was getting into even after I had done the research myself, but not all of them will be doing this work. 

I think part of it is that it’s easy to get into the mindset of not thinking about how things work if you’ve always done it a particular way your whole life. That said, I don’t feel surprised it was an e-tron buyer.


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## Apple fanboy

Nycturne said:


> The downside to VW and the ID.4 is that their tech is behind a lot of the competition, especially compared to premium brands like BMW. So I can set a departure schedule _in_ the car, but not from the app. But since my departure schedule isn’t consistent, it’s not as useful as just remembering to turn on the heat/defrost from my phone before I start gathering stuff together to leave.
> 
> Sadly, turning on defrost from the app doesn’t seem to engage the side mirror heaters. So that’s fun. But I will say, it’s a revelation to be able to defrost the front windshield in 30 seconds, rather than having to blow hot air at it.
> 
> 
> 
> Dealers will be dealers. My VW/Audi dealer was a lot more hands on trying to make sure I knew what I was getting into even after I had done the research myself, but not all of them will be doing this work.
> 
> I think part of it is that it’s easy to get into the mindset of not thinking about how things work if you’ve always done it a particular way your whole life. That said, I don’t feel surprised it was an e-tron buyer.



I had a heated windscreen on my last Ford Focus. That was great. But you only seem to get that on certain brands. 

I partly blame the dealership. But I’m also surprised how little research the guy had done. I read loads and watched plenty of videos on YT before buying an EV. It’s a big commitment and change in the way things are done. 
That said I won’t be going back to an ICE car. I’m very happy with my choice.


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## Roller

I'll be in the market for a fully electric vehicle when the lease on my current PHEV ends (or I get out of it prematurely). Range isn't the issue it once was, and charger networks keep expanding.

I've been quite impressed with Hyundai's IONIQ 5 and 6, which are built on the same platform. (I'm less enamored of the styling on the IONIQ 7.) I know some people look down on Hyundai, but they've come a long way. Kia, Hyundai's sister company, is also interesting, though they have a smaller dealer network and sell fewer vehicles. I also like the interior of the IONIQs more than Kia's EV6.


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## Nycturne

Apple fanboy said:


> I partly blame the dealership. But I’m also surprised how little research the guy had done. I read loads and watched plenty of videos on YT before buying an EV. It’s a big commitment and change in the way things are done.




Some people are like that. Makes me wonder if this person is wealthy enough to be flippant about a car that expensive. 



Apple fanboy said:


> That said I won’t be going back to an ICE car. I’m very happy with my choice.




It would be hard. If a couple more sites show up along Hwy 101 on the peninsula in Washington state, it’ll help for my needs. There’s a route where I have to stop at a specific charger and charge or the trip isn’t possible. We will see what the state transportation department does with funds earmarked for adding coverage to state routes.


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## Apple fanboy

Nycturne said:


> Some people are like that. Makes me wonder if this person is wealthy enough to be flippant about a car that expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be hard. If a couple more sites show up along Hwy 101 on the peninsula in Washington state, it’ll help for my needs. There’s a route where I have to stop at a specific charger and charge or the trip isn’t possible. We will see what the state transportation department does with funds earmarked for adding coverage to state routes.



Here in the UK the charging network is pretty good. Just needs more chargers at each services.


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## Nycturne

Got a 2” hitch receiver and trailer power socket in a few days ago for the ID.4. But didn’t have a torque wrench to properly torque down the bolts for the receiver. Local chain hardware store had the one I needed on sale for 50% off, so grabbed it and installed the receiver and power socket yesterday afternoon. 

I do appreciate some of the over-engineering VW did here. Bolting the receiver to the crossmember rather than welding it, and including the wiring harness for a 7-pin socket means it only cost about 150$ for the torque wrench, the 2” receiver, and the 7-pin socket. When I had a 2” hitch added to my Outback, I took it to a place to run 4-pin wiring and do all the work, and it was a little over 800$ for parts (hitch and wiring) and labor. Not exactly apples to apples comparison, but still appreciate the ease that the receiver can be swapped, and not having to run my own wiring on the AWD model. Not to mention the receiver can be replaced on its own if it starts to rust badly while the crossmember is still in good shape. 







Apple fanboy said:


> Here in the UK the charging network is pretty good. Just needs more chargers at each services.




Yeah, the coverage there is much better for 50kW+ chargers. Helps that Tesla is using CCS2 like everyone else there. Here, Tesla has the most developed network, using their proprietary connector. Electrify America is the next one in line, but can’t even manage “one nine” level reliability, apparently. Certain core corridors are generally okay, but if you stray too far, good luck. An example of the trip I’m looking to make soon (red mark is where I need to get to):


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