# Electric Scooters



## Eric

Wondering if anyone else is using one of these, I plan on picking one up to use so I can hit some of these longer trails for photos without having to walk for miles at a time with all that gear on my back. I've settled on the Segway Ninebot MAX, will fit nicely into my trunk and has a pretty good range.


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## DT

I see electric scooters and bikes all over now, they seem awesome, I would totally use of these for short commutes ( still have an original Razor scooter I bust out on occasion).

I've seen good reviews on various sites,  some people cite less well known brands as "better value", but I've heard Segue has excellent customer service, so that factors into the price (vs. an AliExpress Special )  Good specs, excellent range, and close to 20MPH top speed on a scooter is pretty quick!

At that price, I think I'd go with a full on bike, but the use case you have in mind might be much better suited for a scooter.  It's certainly more compact.

FWIW, I keep looking at Lectric eBikes, the XP 2.0 specifically - their bikes also fold in half, but I'm sure it's still a larger package vs. a scooter.  They have a new model the XP Lite, they run it on sale for $799 (plus usually some kind of freebie, like right now, an upgraded comfort seat and post), it's about the same weight as the scooter above too (~40 lbs).


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## Apple fanboy

Eric said:


> Wondering if anyone else is using one of these, I plan on picking one up to use so I can hit some of these longer trails for photos without having to walk for miles at a time with all that gear on my back. I've settled on the Segway Ninebot MAX, will fit nicely into my trunk and has a pretty good range.
> 
> View attachment 15457



In the UK you can only use them on private land outside of a few sample test areas. I’d sooner go electric bike or just standard bike. But depends on the distance you want to go. I’m sure I’d just go over the handlebars the first stone I hit!


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## Eric

DT said:


> I see electric scooters and bikes all over now, they seem awesome, I would totally use of these for short commutes ( still have an original Razor scooter I bust out on occasion).
> 
> I've seen good reviews on various sites,  some people cite less well known brands as "better value", but I've heard Segue has excellent customer service, so that factors into the price (vs. an AliExpress Special )  Good specs, excellent range, and close to 20MPH top speed on a scooter is pretty quick!
> 
> At that price, I think I'd go with a full on bike, but the use case you have in mind might be much better suited for a scooter.  It's certainly more compact.
> 
> FWIW, I keep looking at Lectric eBikes, the XP 2.0 specifically - their bikes also fold in half, but I'm sure it's still a larger package vs. a scooter.  They have a new model the XP Lite, they run it on sale for $799 (plus usually some kind of freebie, like right now, an upgraded comfort seat and post), it's about the same weight as the scooter above too (~40 lbs).



Actually looks really cool but even folded would take up too much space I think, I'm even dubious about the scooter with all my other camera gear but it seems like the most viable option.


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## Eric

Apple fanboy said:


> In the UK you can only use them on private land outside of a few sample test areas. I’d sooner go electric bike or just standard bike. But depends on the distance you want to go. I’m sure I’d just go over the handlebars the first stone I hit!



I've heard that and it's a bummer, everyone rides them everywhere here as there are so many bike lanes.


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## DT

Oh, another thing, with a fat tire eBike, you'd have more flexibility for offroad type riding, I thought about that when you talked about "bike lanes", and saw you said trails above.


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## Eric

Just wanted to follow up that this is the coolest thing since sliced bread, I've already got over 40 miles on it and love the freedom it offers. I've seen areas of my home town that I've never been able to see because there are so many miles worth of paved trails that go through it. Also fits perfectly in the trunk so I just take it with me everywhere.


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## Hrafn

I saw a guy on one of these: https://onewheel.com/, too rich for my blood, and the trails we were on are non-motorized.


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## Eric

Hrafn said:


> I saw a guy on one of these: https://onewheel.com/, too rich for my blood, and the trails we were on are non-motorized.



I do see younger people cruising around on these but I'll just go ahead and stick with a minimum of two wheels. The electric scooters are everywhere on these trails though, lots of families are out on them as well.


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## DT

I didn't realize you had actually ordered, nice!

We need some action POV video of you cutting up the trails, maybe getting a little air


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## Eric

DT said:


> I didn't realize you had actually ordered, nice!
> 
> We need some action POV video of you cutting up the trails, maybe getting a little air



When I put it in sport mode you can get up to 20 MPH and when you're that low to the ground it's actually pretty fast so I find myself backing off, I also wear a helmet just to be safe. 

But yeah, this thing just zips around and is awesome, as kids something like this would've been magical as we only had leg power back then. No wonder they're are all fat and diabetes ridden today.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> Wondering if anyone else is using one of these, I plan on picking one up to use so I can hit some of these longer trails for photos without having to walk for miles at a time with all that gear on my back. I've settled on the Segway Ninebot MAX, will fit nicely into my trunk and has a pretty good range.
> 
> View attachment 15457





How would that do on rough terrain trails?  I imagine there are a lot of good photo ops on those trails.

I have an e-mountain bike that folds in half for backseat or trunk hauling.  Unfortunately this was a novel idea at the time when I got it, and it weighs a ton and the battery is large and exposed with wiring running all over that makes it look like I'm riding an IED.  If I was present with that bike at the event where Shinzo Abe was assassinated I probably would have gotten pummeled by security.  
​


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## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> How would that do on rough terrain trails?  I imagine there are a lot of good photo ops on those trails.
> 
> I have an e-mountain bike that folds in half for backseat or trunk hauling.  Unfortunately this was a novel idea at the time when I got it, and it weighs a ton and the battery is large and exposed with wiring running all over that makes it look like I'm riding an IED.  If I was present with that bike at the event where Shinzo Abe was assassinated I probably would have gotten pummeled by security.
> ​



I had considered an e-bike as well but the size and weight was too much for simple packing into the car and that's why I went with this instead, it's 40 pounds and fits neatly into my trunk along with all my camera gear and other traveling bags. The main bar folds down and that's all there is to it, takes just a few seconds and you're done.

You can take it off road and it has nice air filled tires for smooth riding but it doesn't have a suspension so it can be bumpy, that's the only real limitation I can think of.

Since buying it and showing it to some friends, who took it for a ride, they've since purchased their own and are now cruising all those coolio trails up and down the pacific coast in Half Moon Bay and Pacifica. Segway should be giving me a commission lol.


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## DT

Eric said:


> Since buying it and showing it to some friends, who took it for a ride, they've since purchased their own and are now cruising all those coolio trails up and down the pacific coast in Half Moon Bay and Pacifica.




Are you guys members of The Hell's Satans?


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## Nycturne

Eric said:


> I had considered an e-bike as well but the size and weight was too much for simple packing into the car and that's why I went with this instead, it's 40 pounds and fits neatly into my trunk along with all my camera gear and other traveling bags. The main bar folds down and that's all there is to it, takes just a few seconds and you're done.
> 
> You can take it off road and it has nice air filled tires for smooth riding but it doesn't have a suspension so it can be bumpy, that's the only real limitation I can think of.
> 
> Since buying it and showing it to some friends, who took it for a ride, they've since purchased their own and are now cruising all those coolio trails up and down the pacific coast in Half Moon Bay and Pacifica. Segway should be giving me a commission lol.




Segway should, since I wouldn’t mind adding one of these to my stable. Being able to grab it out of the trunk and go off to lunch while at work would be interesting. Being able to go a few miles along a multi-use trail to a nice restaraunt instead of traveling along the freeway would also be nice.

I agree on the point that this is more portable than an e-bike, but maybe not so much on the weight. This thing is an absolute unit for a scooter, and is really creeping up on e-bike weights depending on what type of e-bike you want. My e-bike is an absolute unit as well though, so it’s up in the 65lb range with the battery installed.

I wouldn’t take this on the sort of trips I take on the e-bike though. The range on the Segway would give up before my e-bike does, looking at the real world numbers people are getting. The ride I had yesterday wouldn’t have been doable with my weight.


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## Eric

Nycturne said:


> Segway should, since I wouldn’t mind adding one of these to my stable. Being able to grab it out of the trunk and go off to lunch while at work would be interesting. Being able to go a few miles along a multi-use trail to a nice restaraunt instead of traveling along the freeway would also be nice.
> 
> I agree on the point that this is more portable than an e-bike, but maybe not so much on the weight. This thing is an absolute unit for a scooter, and is really creeping up on e-bike weights depending on what type of e-bike you want. My e-bike is an absolute unit as well though, so it’s up in the 65lb range with the battery installed.
> 
> I wouldn’t take this on the sort of trips I take on the e-bike though. The range on the Segway would give up before my e-bike does, looking at the real world numbers people are getting. The ride I had yesterday wouldn’t have been doable with my weight.



Right, real world estimates with my weight in sport mode realistically puts it at just over 20 miles and for me that's plenty. I don't see using it for really long trips anyway, I took it out for maybe 7 or 8 miles the other day and that was more than enough for a single ride.


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## Nycturne

Eric said:


> Right, real world estimates with my weight in sport mode realistically puts it at just over 20 miles and for me that's plenty. I don't see using it for really long trips anyway, I took it out for maybe 7 or 8 miles the other day and that was more than enough for a single ride.




Yup, wasn’t trying to give the thing too hard a knock, just that it fills a different niche.


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## Eric

Nycturne said:


> Yup, wasn’t trying to give the thing too hard a knock, just that it fills a different niche.



Exactly, a bike would definitely be a nicer ride. This thing is bumpy and definitely gives your whole body more of a workout than one might think by standing and adjusting the entire time you're riding.


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## Macky-Mac

They're yet another curse on humanity!

If people only rode them in bike lanes, or on the roadway, instead of on the sidewalk, they'd be more tolerable.


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## Nycturne

Macky-Mac said:


> They're yet another curse on humanity!
> 
> If people only rode them in bike lanes, or on the roadway, instead of on the sidewalk, they'd be more tolerable.




You will _never_ catch me in the roadway on a 40lb vehicle that tops out at under 20mph with 2000+ lb vehicles that don’t seem to know how to drive under 30mph. And bike lanes that are really just gutters with painted line are even worse for scooter users than bike users (and they are bad for both).

Car-centric infrastructure is a plague, and we need more room for _all_ other modes of transport (bikes, scooters, pedestrians) instead of us fighting for the scraps.


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## DT

Eric said:


> Exactly, a bike would definitely be a nicer ride. This thing is bumpy and definitely gives your whole body more of a workout than one might think by standing and adjusting the entire time you're riding.




Hahaha, when I used to ride dirt bikes pretty regularly (a L O N G time ago ...) I'd mention how exhausting it was, and some people would say, "Why?  If you're just riding a motorcycle?"


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## Renzatic

DT said:


> Hahaha, when I used to ride dirt bikes pretty regularly (a L O N G time ago ...) I'd mention how exhausting it was, and some people would say, "Why?  If you're just riding a motorcycle?"




I have a cousin who used to race dirtbikes way back in the day. Kid me thought it was pretty cool, but then I saw him break his collarbone 5 times.


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## rdrr

Nycturne said:


> You will _never_ catch me in the roadway on a 40lb vehicle that tops out at under 20mph with 2000+ lb vehicles that don’t seem to know how to drive under 30mph. And bike lanes that are really just gutters with painted line are even worse for scooter users than bike users (and they are bad for both).
> 
> Car-centric infrastructure is a plague, and we need more room for _all_ other modes of transport (bikes, scooters, pedestrians) instead of us fighting for the scraps.



The problem with City infrastructure is that it's too late in a lot of the older cities.  There are plenty of examples in Boston that redesigning the streets for bike lines is causing bigger headaches.   Taking away a lane for bike lanes is making an already commute congested city worse, and more importantly removing parking which is cascading into local merchants complaining about it reducing the amount of business they receive.   We got to figure out a better way of retrofitting these bike lanes without reducing auto traffic capacity or impacting residents.


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## DT

Renzatic said:


> I have a cousin who used to race dirtbikes way back in the day. Kid me thought it was pretty cool, but then I saw him break his collarbone 5 times.




Hahaha, would you like to see my mangled collarbone?


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## Renzatic

DT said:


> Hahaha, would you like to see my mangled collarbone?




HELL, WHY NOT?


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## Nycturne

rdrr said:


> The problem with City infrastructure is that it's too late in a lot of the older cities.




It can be expensive, but it's never too late. We paved over cities to create what we have now at great expense (and great detriment to historically black neighborhoods). But it's also possible to slowly, incrementally, address it. Paris in particular is going at this head on, with the same sort of growing pains Amsterdam saw decades ago, but it's also clear the shift is already happening. There's clear tipping points that once you reach them, the benefits begin to materialize and you get the demand for further improvements. Not that different from EVs in that regard, or really any form of transportation.  

It was the same with the interstate system and the car-based road system we have today. 



rdrr said:


> There are plenty of examples in Boston that redesigning the streets for bike lines is causing bigger headaches.   Taking away a lane for bike lanes is making an already commute congested city worse, and more importantly removing parking which is cascading into local merchants complaining about it reducing the amount of business they receive.   We got to figure out a better way of retrofitting these bike lanes without reducing auto traffic capacity or impacting residents.




Part of the problem I see with how NA cities have done this is that these decisions tend to be made in terms of roads, not trips. Bike lanes being added do nothing if the infrastructure doesn't support real trips being made, or don't make riders feel safe (see my comment about bike gutters). So if I take away a lane without alternatives for trips being made, and fail to attach those bike lanes to real destinations, or make it unlikely that the average family member feels safe using those lanes, of course it will fail to solve the problem. People make trips, and will make those trips in a way that is easy and safe for them. They aren't "cyclists" or "pedestrians" or "drivers". 

Anything we do here needs to be comprehensive. It means zoning for neighborhoods that include mixed use, allowing people to make shorter trips and having amenities available to them that don't require a car to access safely. It means having places to secure things like bikes/scooters/etc at those destinations. It means public transit accessibility for longer trips. And yes, car access should still be in play. It's not just about swapping one type of lane for another, but rather a rethinking of transportation in a holistic, people-centric mindset rather than a car-centric one. Otherwise you get into the "when you have a hammer, everything's a nail" mindset we currently have. Car infrastructure is expensive, and makes other forms of infrastructure more expensive due to sprawl. It's starting to be shown that the sprawl makes it harder for a city to remain solvent compared to more dense cities that don't devote a third of their land to cars. Historic districts and modern mixed use districts being the core revenue centers for today's NA cities. 

Anyways, I've let this topic get derailed, so it's probably better to move this to a separate thread.


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## Macky-Mac

Nycturne said:


> You will _never_ catch me in the roadway on a 40lb vehicle that tops out at under 20mph with 2000+ lb vehicles that don’t seem to know how to drive under 30mph. And bike lanes that are really just gutters with painted line are even worse for scooter users than bike users (and they are bad for both).
> 
> Car-centric infrastructure is a plague, and we need more room for _all_ other modes of transport (bikes, scooters, pedestrians) instead of us fighting for the scraps.




Knowing someone whose wife was killed as a result of being hit by bicycle whose rider decided to zoom along the clearly posted pedestrian walkway.....I'm in favor of separated pathways. Unfortunately our infrastructure has been built otherwise.  That doesn't mean that scooter and bike riders are free to disregard the various rules and regulations that apply to them.


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## Eric

Macky-Mac said:


> Knowing someone whose wife was killed as a result of being hit by bicycle whose rider decided to zoom along the clearly posted pedestrian walkway.....I'm in favor of separated pathways. Unfortunately our infrastructure has been built otherwise.  That doesn't mean that scooter and bike riders are free to disregard the various rules and regulations that apply to them.



I don't know about other areas but here in CA there are bike paths and paved trails everywhere, many of which are off the beaten path, more than I would ever be able to ride on. I also adhere to whatever the rules of the road are, if I'm at a stop light I won't go until it turns green, etc. as if I am in my car. Bicyclists who ignore these while getting mad at drivers on the road are infuriating so I made a vow not to be THAT guy.


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## Nycturne

Macky-Mac said:


> Knowing someone whose wife was killed as a result of being hit by bicycle whose rider decided to zoom along the clearly posted pedestrian walkway.....I'm in favor of separated pathways. Unfortunately our infrastructure has been built otherwise.  *That doesn't mean that scooter and bike riders are free to disregard the various rules and regulations that apply to them.*




I don’t disagree with the bolded statement. There are a ton of multi-use trails in my area (pedestrian and cycling/etc) with speed limits, and that sort of shared use only works when there’s space to safely pass, and people are acting responsibly with other traffic. Those rules are necessary.

While these trails are in good shape and have plenty of room, I’m well aware that many sidewalks/etc are not spacious, and barely have room for two people to pass at walking speeds, let alone at 10-15mph. And I do see cyclists ignoring the 15mph speed limit on these multi-use trails and doing upwards of 25mph. Screw that.

I do sympathize with those who have had to go through loss because of people acting irresponsibly (I have to hope that rider was charged with manslaughter at an absolute minimum). My statement is more that throwing scooter/bike riders to the wolves (i.e. putting them into an equally bad position in terms of safety) isn’t the answer either. This doesn’t need to become a trolley problem. But please don’t take my response as “scooters need sidewalk access” either.



Eric said:


> I don't know about other areas but here in CA there are bike paths and paved trails everywhere, many of which are off the beaten path, more than I would ever be able to ride on. I also adhere to whatever the rules of the road are, if I'm at a stop light I won't go until it turns green, etc. as if I am in my car. Bicyclists who ignore these while getting mad at drivers on the road are infuriating so I made a vow not to be THAT guy.




Same. The local county has been doing some heavy work on “rails to trails” so we’re starting to see a bit of an inter-city network form.

I just ordered one of these for when I am not in the mood for hauling the whole bike. Segway should pay you commission.


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## Eric

Nycturne said:


> I don’t disagree with the bolded statement. There are a ton of multi-use trails in my area (pedestrian and cycling/etc) with speed limits, and that sort of shared use only works when there’s space to safely pass, and people are acting responsibly with other traffic. Those rules are necessary.
> 
> While these trails are in good shape and have plenty of room, I’m well aware that many sidewalks/etc are not spacious, and barely have room for two people to pass at walking speeds, let alone at 10-15mph. And I do see cyclists ignoring the 15mph speed limit on these multi-use trails and doing upwards of 25mph. Screw that.
> 
> I do sympathize with those who have had to go through loss because of people acting irresponsibly (I have to hope that rider was charged with manslaughter at an absolute minimum). My statement is more that throwing scooter/bike riders to the wolves (i.e. putting them into an equally bad position in terms of safety) isn’t the answer either. This doesn’t need to become a trolley problem. But please don’t take my response as “scooters need sidewalk access” either.
> 
> 
> 
> Same. The local county has been doing some heavy work on “rails to trails” so we’re starting to see a bit of an inter-city network form.
> 
> I just ordered one of these for when I am not in the mood for hauling the whole bike. Segway should pay you commission.



Congrats, you’ll love it.


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## Nycturne

Got it in today, and after charging up to 90%, took it out for about 6 miles. I'm a bit on the heavy side for the scooter, so while it was fine on the flats, it really doesn't like the hills with me on it, getting stuck on some of the steeper ones at around 13% grade (7.5 degrees). 

It's nice, but it does make me wonder if I should be looking at something like the P65 instead.


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## Eric

Nycturne said:


> Got it in today, and after charging up to 90%, took it out for about 6 miles. I'm a bit on the heavy side for the scooter, so while it was fine on the flats, it really doesn't like the hills with me on it, getting stuck on some of the steeper ones at around 13% grade (7.5 degrees).
> 
> It's nice, but it does make me wonder if I should be looking at something like the P65 instead.



I had this problem at first as well, putting into Sport mode solved it as it gives more torque all around. In fact reading up on it, it looks like everyone just leaves it in that mode. If you haven't tried it give a shot, it's way better.


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## DT

So @Nycturne and @Eric, you both have the G30?  

The P65 looks to be a soon-to-be-released model with beefier specs and not priced yet, but I see rumors of ~$1400, in some of those same (Reddit) threads I see mention of a P100 model too!


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## Nycturne

This was in Sport and above 70% battery, unfortunately. Around 13% grade is about as high as it can go with my weight with me zig zagging up the road to stop it from stalling out. I'm not that disappointed, as I knew going in that I was close to the limit and that it might not hold up to the marketing numbers (one reason I got the e-bike was to get more active while not worrying about getting stuck on hills to help start fighting back on the weight before it became too difficult). But I plan on giving it more time to see how much of a problem it is outside the larger hills near the house. 10+% grade isn't that common around here, but some of the trails I bike on can hit up to 18% grade. I don't ride those very often. The pandemic has meant I haven't been able to use the bike to get to work and back, but that route would be a 6% grade worst case.

That said, I am impressed how quick it was otherwise. Had no problem pushing me at 19mph down to around 60% battery. Below 50% battery when I did a couple miles right out of the box it was still able to hit 16-17mph in Sport. I think I like the medium regen setting the most, a nice amount of regen braking for making turns without too much lurching.

One nice thing about bikes: being able to change gear for better climbing. That hill on the work route is something I can take at 13-15mph on the e-bike, which I couldn't do otherwise.



DT said:


> So @Nycturne and @Eric, you both have the G30?
> 
> The P65 looks to be a soon-to-be-released model with beefier specs and not priced yet, but I see rumors of ~$1400, in some of those same (Reddit) threads I see mention of a P100 model too!




Yes, the G30 is still in stock on Amazon in the US, and has the 10% discount that Segway is offering (if they had stock in their own store).

The P65 is also still up on Kickstarter for 200$ off the 1399$ price until they X number of people get that discounted price. They're running it more like a pre-order run, which means it's still open for people to jump in up to Sep 1st. Extra 150W nominal motor would help in the hills, but it's also a faster unit which doesn't interest me as much. Speed limit on the shared paths around here is 15mph, and bike traffic tends to go anywhere from 12-17mph except for the extreme road warrior types who will do 20+mph. I'm fine zipping along at 15mph on this thing, plenty fast for a scooter to ride on paved and gravel trails, IMO. If I wanted a 25mph commuter, I feel like an e-bike is still going to be a better pick for having control at those speeds. But around here, the 15mph paths tend to be straight-shots compared to trying the same thing on surface streets with cars at 25mph. 

P100 looks a lot like a moped you stand on. Fast, but not really something you can or should take onto public shared use paths, IMO.


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## Nycturne

Not sure how, but already have 20mi on the odometer from some time during lunch and a longer ride after wrapping up work. Looking like 25mi on a single charge in Sport is doable, which is plenty. 

Not a fan of the app’s range guess-o-meter. It doesn’t seem to learn, so it’s really just another battery %.


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## Eric

Nycturne said:


> Not sure how, but already have 20mi on the odometer from some time during lunch and a longer ride after wrapping up work. Looking like 25mi on a single charge in Sport is doable, which is plenty.
> 
> Not a fan of the app’s range guess-o-meter. It doesn’t seem to learn, so it’s really just another battery %.



That pretty much matches up with what I've read in sport mode, I agree it's not bad all considering. Yeah, like the Tesla it's all really just a guess with a bunch of unforeseen variables which is why I always go by percentage and not miles as well.


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## Nycturne

Eric said:


> Yeah, like the Tesla it's all really just a guess with a bunch of unforeseen variables which is why I always go by percentage and not miles as well.




It doesn’t feel like it’s even trying to guess though? It still thinks a full charge is the 40mi marketing range after 20mi in Sport.


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## Eric

This latest Segway G2 is insane, 43 MPH with dual suspension and motors, will go 0 to 30 in 3.5 seconds. Waaaay too much for this old man but still cool af.


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## fooferdoggie

I missed most of this. but standup scooters suck for long rides since you don't move around.  great for sort rides my battery died because of the pandemic. I used to ride mine to the movies Now I stick with my E bike.


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## Eric

fooferdoggie said:


> I missed most of this. but standup scooters suck for long rides since you don't move around.  great for sort rides my battery died because of the pandemic. I used to ride mine to the movies Now I stick with my E bike.



Speaking for myself I've put hundreds of miles on it and can't get enough.


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## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> Speaking for myself I've put hundreds of miles on it and can't get enough.



I do hundreds of miles on my e bike a week. now that's fun on a scooter it would be torture.


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## Eric

fooferdoggie said:


> I do hundreds of miles on my e bike a week. now that's fun on a scooter it would be torture.



Guess it's a good thing you don't ride it then.


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## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> Guess it's a good thing you don't ride it then.



no it was good for errands easier then the bike for short trips. but it was impractical for long trips and less then great weather.


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## fischersd

Ok...bit my tongue...going to voice an incredibly unpopular opinion here.  F'ing hate all of these damn e-bikes invading the bike pathways.  Lots of lazy kids breezing along high doing sweet f-all....and couch potatoes never lifting a finger to exercise, being a nuisance on the pathways.  Get off your fucking ass and exercise, dammit!!!

There...let the public stoning commence.


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## DT

fischersd said:


> There...let the public stoning commence.


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## Eric

fischersd said:


> Ok...bit my tongue...going to voice an incredibly unpopular opinion here.  F'ing hate all of these damn e-bikes invading the bike pathways.  Lots of lazy kids breezing along high doing sweet f-all....and couch potatoes never lifting a finger to exercise, being a nuisance on the pathways.  Get off your fucking ass and exercise, dammit!!!
> 
> There...let the public stoning commence.



Tired of fat kids passing my car going uphill on a bike as they snack on a bag of chips, like they're REALLY pedalling it.


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## Nycturne

fischersd said:


> Ok...bit my tongue...going to voice an incredibly unpopular opinion here.  F'ing hate all of these damn e-bikes invading the bike pathways.  Lots of lazy kids breezing along high doing sweet f-all....and couch potatoes never lifting a finger to exercise, being a nuisance on the pathways.  Get off your fucking ass and exercise, dammit!!!
> 
> There...let the public stoning commence.




I guess my question is: would it make any difference to you if the e-bike didn’t have a throttle?


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## fooferdoggie

There re always going to be stupid people doing stupid stuff. We were on our e tandem hauling our grandkid on her trailer  doing 18mph when we were passed by two people on e bikes one ghost peddling one girl throttle with her feet flying all over.


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## fischersd

Nycturne said:


> I guess my question is: would it make any difference to you if the e-bike didn’t have a throttle?



You mean, so they were only at top speed and went off of the path onto the rocks below?  Yep, that'd work...decrease the idiot population. 

Edit:  Ooh...could make a note to sell thousands of them at the next GOP convention. . Crash and burn bitches!


----------



## Eric

Looking back to when most of us were kids, we had to pedal or scoot ourselves and it meant exercise but was also fun being outside and playing. Those days are gone, instead of being told to come in and eat, parents have to make their kids get off their asses to get outside and when they do they rely on electronic motors to get them around. Granted, if we had these toys when we were kids we would probably be no different so it's hard to blame them, progress, I guess.


----------



## fischersd

Eric said:


> Looking back to when most of us were kids, we had to pedal or scoot ourselves and it meant exercise but was also fun being outside and playing. Those days are gone, instead of being told to come in and eat, parents have to make their kids get off their asses to get outside and when they do they rely on electronic motors to get them around. Granted, if we had these toys when we were kids we would probably be no different so it's hard to blame them, progress, I guess.



Progress to a fatter, lazier society...on the plus side, they won't live as long.


----------



## Nycturne

fischersd said:


> You mean, so they were only at top speed and went off of the path onto the rocks below?  Yep, that'd work...decrease the idiot population.
> 
> Edit:  Ooh...could make a note to sell thousands of them at the next GOP convention. . Crash and burn bitches!




No throttle on an e-bike means that you only get assist when using the pedals.

Honestly, without the sort of e-bike I ride now, my joints would mean no real bike riding at all.



Eric said:


> Looking back to when most of us were kids, we had to pedal or scoot ourselves and it meant exercise but was also fun being outside and playing. Those days are gone, instead of being told to come in and eat, parents have to make their kids get off their asses to get outside and when they do they rely on electronic motors to get them around. Granted, if we had these toys when we were kids we would probably be no different so it's hard to blame them, progress, I guess.




To be fair, it was easier for me to get around without playing chicken with cars in the neighborhood I grew up in. As in-fill development happened, it became harder to do that in the same neighborhood, but we still had a couple ways left to get out to the main drag as teens without cars. The neighborhood I live in now is basically surrounded by a moat of a high speed road that cuts off the neighborhood from local shops and parks. Cars drive in front of my house at speeds that will kill someone if anyone bothered to be in the streets anymore. It seems more difficult to be an independent kid these days than it was for me. At least where I live.

EDIT: on topic though, I wonder why nobody sells a speed limited scooter with enough power to climb hills like with class 1/2 e-bikes? I’d honestly buy one.


----------



## fischersd

Nycturne said:


> No throttle on an e-bike means that you only get assist when using the pedals.
> 
> Honestly, without the sort of e-bike I ride now, my joints would mean no real bike riding at all.



Have absolutely no issue with people using them for health reasons - and, yes, assist when peddling should be the limitation for people using these on dedicated bike trails.  Scooters shouldn't be allowed on trails that were designed for people to use for exercise.


----------



## Eric

Nycturne said:


> EDIT: on topic though, I wonder why nobody sells a speed limited scooter with enough power to climb hills like with class 1/2 e-bikes? I’d honestly buy one.



Not sure if you caught my post a page back but this one looks like it would handle it, but at $4K I could never justify it for the putting around I do.


----------



## Nycturne

Eric said:


> Not sure if you caught my post a page back but this one looks like it would handle it, but at $4K I could never justify it for the putting around I do.



Key bit in what I said before being _speed limited_. I don’t need or want a 28+mph top speed. (To be fair, not sure I want to go much faster than 16-18mph on the Ninebot Max)



fischersd said:


> Have absolutely no issue with people using them for health reasons - and, yes, assist when peddling should be the limitation for people using these on dedicated bike trails.  Scooters shouldn't be allowed on trails that were designed for people to use for exercise.



The rules are still being worked out, and it seems people disagree on how to break it down (speed versus capability). MUPs where I live have a 15mph speed limit, so class 1/2 e-bikes are permitted (20 mph top speed on the assist without or with a throttle). Class 3 are prohibited (28mph top speed, no throttle) and those are generally prohibited on any bike or shared path and need to stay in the road or bike gutters. Not sure I disagree with how many road bikes I see doing 20-25mph in a shared paved trail as if it’s a commuting road. Those throttled e-bikes are not the fastest things on these larger paved trails.

The bigger fight is over the unpaved trails that MTBers use. If those open up,  class 2 (throttled e-bikes) seem to be up for being allowed due to the speed limiter. Although I do think the throttle is more the problem in these spaces than the upper speed limit on the motor assist. A class 3 e-bike isn’t going to climb a path all that well, and control is the main issue going down, not motor assist. But a throttle makes it too easy to have issues on these smaller off-road trails.

Technically you can get a class 1/2 above 20mph, but the motor will have shut off, and the bike is heavy so good luck. Best I’ve done is about 23mph on a flat surface and I can’t keep it up for more than a mile or so.


----------



## Eric

Nycturne said:


> Key bit in what I said before being _speed limited_. I don’t need or want a 28+mph top speed. (To be fair, not sure I want to go much faster than 16-18mph on the Ninebot Max)



Yeah, mine is fast enough for me but I'm guessing this thing has all the torque you need to be able to climb any hill. I look at the speed limit like a car, it may do 120 MPH but I never exceed 75.


----------



## DT

FMA.









						Inmotion V13. Deposit - ewheels.com
					

$1,000 holding deposit page  Batch 1 sold out, batch 2 expected late January  Early-bird preorder price $3,999, $2,999 balance on arrival  Tentative specifications:    All new generation controller with 42 MOSFETS, continuous power output rating of 1,000A  3,024Wh Battery Pack, with SmartBMS...




					www.ewheels.com
				











That's ___90___ MPH.


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## fischersd

DT said:


> FMA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inmotion V13. Deposit - ewheels.com
> 
> 
> $1,000 holding deposit page  Batch 1 sold out, batch 2 expected late January  Early-bird preorder price $3,999, $2,999 balance on arrival  Tentative specifications:    All new generation controller with 42 MOSFETS, continuous power output rating of 1,000A  3,024Wh Battery Pack, with SmartBMS...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ewheels.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16716
> 
> 
> That's ___90___ MPH.



Actually, 144.841kph=90mph

140 is like 86.992

Now, no-one would begrudge you for saying 160kph=100mph (as it's 99.4)


----------



## Nycturne

DT said:


> FMA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inmotion V13. Deposit - ewheels.com
> 
> 
> $1,000 holding deposit page  Batch 1 sold out, batch 2 expected late January  Early-bird preorder price $3,999, $2,999 balance on arrival  Tentative specifications:    All new generation controller with 42 MOSFETS, continuous power output rating of 1,000A  3,024Wh Battery Pack, with SmartBMS...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ewheels.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's ___90___ MPH.




Max speed is rated around 55mph, which, jeez. 

I’ll pass. I’m not interested in becoming a meat crayon.


----------



## DT

fischersd said:


> Actually, 144.841kph=90mph
> 
> 140 is like 86.992
> 
> Now, no-one would begrudge you for saying 160kph=100mph (as it's 99.4)




Oh, hahaha, I round everything to the nearest whatever 



Nycturne said:


> Max speed is rated around 55mph, which, jeez.
> 
> I’ll pass. I’m not interested in becoming a meat crayon.




Right? I wonder how quickly you can make a controlled stop?


----------



## Nycturne

Nycturne said:


> Key bit in what I said before being _speed limited_. I don’t need or want a 28+mph top speed. (To be fair, not sure I want to go much faster than 16-18mph on the Ninebot Max)




So I’ve been looking more closely at the other options available to see what is available that meets my wants, and I’m kinda digging what Varla has on offer. 

Leaning towards selling the Ninebot for a Pegasus. For a bit more it adds suspension and dual motors. It can do 28mph, but can be limited to 10 or 16mph using the “PAS” setting (it repurposes some e-bike components for the display and motor controls) according to the manual. A reviewer was able to do 14mph up a 22% grade hill with a 180lb rider, so it has plenty of oomph there. Main downside is that it tends to get 15-23mi range in the real world, with the sort of riding I’d be doing being 20-23mi. So not as good range, but still enough for the trips I’m interested in.


----------



## Eric

Nycturne said:


> So I’ve been looking more closely at the other options available to see what is available that meets my wants, and I’m kinda digging what Varla has on offer.
> 
> Leaning towards selling the Ninebot for a Pegasus. For a bit more it adds suspension and dual motors. It can do 28mph, but can be limited to 10 or 16mph using the “PAS” setting (it repurposes some e-bike components for the display and motor controls) according to the manual. A reviewer was able to do 14mph up a 22% grade hill with a 180lb rider, so it has plenty of oomph there. Main downside is that it tends to get 15-23mi range in the real world, with the sort of riding I’d be doing being 20-23mi. So not as good range, but still enough for the trips I’m interested in.



Please keep us updated on your decision here, I hope I didn't mislead you with the Ninebot but understand it may not good fit, particularly with the lack of suspension which I've also found to be really rigid and inability to climb hills.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Nycturne said:


> So I’ve been looking more closely at the other options available to see what is available that meets my wants, and I’m kinda digging what Varla has on offer.
> 
> Leaning towards selling the Ninebot for a Pegasus. For a bit more it adds suspension and dual motors. It can do 28mph, but can be limited to 10 or 16mph using the “PAS” setting (it repurposes some e-bike components for the display and motor controls) according to the manual. A reviewer was able to do 14mph up a 22% grade hill with a 180lb rider, so it has plenty of oomph there. Main downside is that it tends to get 15-23mi range in the real world, with the sort of riding I’d be doing being 20-23mi. So not as good range, but still enough for the trips I’m interested in.



ya thats a lot of torque. my ebiek doing a 22% grade I have to put out at least 420 watts to get about 7mph.


----------



## Nycturne

Eric said:


> Please keep us updated on your decision here, I hope I didn't mislead you with the Ninebot but understand it may not good fit, particularly with the lack of suspension which I've also found to be really rigid and inability to climb hills.




Eh, it happens. I more am annoyed at the decline of brick and mortar to be honest, since _that _would have saved me money being able to try in person. But I don’t think I would have known what to look for right now without the 100+ mi on the Ninebot Max or some other scooter. At least with the Ninebot, I don’t feel too bad selling it on, as it’s still good for what it sets out to do, and I’m pretty sure I can find a good home for it. 

The Pegasus is tempting precisely because it is more aimed at people like me, and has the extra bits that are useful in my situation: damped steering for stability at speed, suspension for the inevitable cracks in the pavement, solid tires so you don’t get stuck during a commute (although maybe not as fun offroad), and more control over the acceleration curve and top speed so I can strike that balance for the shared use paths I would spend most of my time on.  The whole thing is tuned for stability and ride at 10-25mph, which seems like exactly what you want on this sort of paved-road commuting vehicle.



fooferdoggie said:


> ya thats a lot of torque. my ebiek doing a 22% grade I have to put out at least 420 watts to get about 7mph.




It is using dual 500W motors to do that, so sounds about right. It’s one reason I want some way to cap the speed as a safety feature. So many advertise the top speed and power, but not enough on the safety features outside the brakes used. There’s a couple other scooters in this price range that would also do pretty well for my wants, but they don’t say what the speed settings actually do in any detail, unlike Varla’s manuals which are quite good.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Nycturne said:


> E
> 
> It is using dual 500W motors to do that, so sounds about right. It’s one reason I want some way to cap the speed as a safety feature. So many advertise the top speed and power, but not enough on the safety features outside the brakes used. There’s a couple other scooters in this price range that would also do pretty well for my wants, but they don’t say what the speed settings actually do in any detail, unlike Varla’s manuals which are quite good.



no way to brake fast on a standup scooter.


----------



## Nycturne

fooferdoggie said:


> no way to brake fast on a standup scooter.




There’s a _lot_ of variability on the brake quality on these things. A reviewer was able to stop the Pegasus from about 27mph to 0 going downhill in around a second (would need a proper distance measurement), which is better than I expected. It puts it in a similar category to an e-bike of similar weight like the one I ride regularly. Varla claims the Pegasus also has ABS, but not sure how well that would work in practice.

But of course all the more reason to be using them at sensible speeds, yes? Don’t outspeed your ability to stop in current conditions?


----------



## Eric

fooferdoggie said:


> no way to brake fast on a standup scooter.



This is simply not true at all, I can stop that thing on a dime pretty much anytime I want, even at 18 or 19 MPH.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> This is simply not true at all, I can stop that thing on a dime pretty much anytime I want, even at 18 or 19 MPH.



stopping that fast on one will toss you right off the front. stopping is always limited to what you can do without loosing control. but it also depend on how much you weigh too.


----------



## Eric

fooferdoggie said:


> stopping that fast on one will toss you right off the front. stopping is always limited to what you can do without loosing control. but it also depend on how much you weigh too.



I get you have an issue with scooters but don't presume to tell me what my experience is with them. This is a factually incorrect statement with clear bias.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> I get you have an issue with scooters but don't presume to tell me what my experience is with them. This is a factually incorrect statement with clear bias.



I don't have an issue with scooters. but they have a lot of limitations. I have ridden on the road for many years from regular bikes to recumbents to scooters stand up and sitdown and e bikes.


----------



## Nycturne

fooferdoggie said:


> stopping that fast on one will toss you right off the front. stopping is always limited to what you can do without loosing control. but it also depend on how much you weigh too.




Not to be too much of a dogpile, but good braking technique when doing emergency braking helps a lot here. ~10 foot braking from 15mph to 0 is absolutely doable on pavement with the right technique and brakes. (YouTube link is set to start on the part about braking technique)


----------



## fooferdoggie

Nycturne said:


> Not to be too much of a dogpile, but good braking technique when doing emergency braking helps a lot here. ~10 foot braking from 15mph to 0 is absolutely doable on pavement with the right technique and brakes. (YouTube link is set to start on the part about braking technique)



yes it can be but you need to pracice it too. but the grip of the scooter tires and the mass of weight so high its limited. its what you can do in an emergancy that really counts.


----------



## Nycturne

fooferdoggie said:


> yes it can be but you need to pracice it too. but the grip of the scooter tires and the mass of weight so high its limited. its what you can do in an emergancy that really counts.




And the same can be said about bikes. Proper braking technique is required there in emergency conditions too, lest I lock the front wheel and lift the back off the ground in the process. Something I have done. But at the end of the day, I don't see any of this as a compelling argument precisely because it's not really worse than my bikes. The technique is different, but I can still produce a comparable end result. So your comment of "no way to stop fast on a standup scooter" still perplexes me. And I thought the whole point is that we are talking about emergency braking. Nobody should _want_ to be doing this sort of braking all the time.

That said, there's certainly some limitations to the geometry of scooters, stability being the one that jumped out to me the most as I started to learn how to ride (and why having the steering damper on the Pegasus is interesting). But braking technique is actually easier for me because I don't have the scooter itself in the way of me adjusting my center of gravity when I have to. But if I was maybe 20 years older, I probably wouldn't have an easy a time.

In the case of the Ninebot, I suspect the reason it doesn't have a front brake is precisely to make it easier to control in braking situations by avoiding the whole "front wheel locks with good traction and almost all forward momentum gets converted into rotational movement". It isn't perfect in slick conditions, but it still manages to keep up with a lot of dual-brake scooters in the price range in terms of stopping distance.


----------



## Eric

Nycturne said:


> And the same can be said about bikes. Proper braking technique is required there in emergency conditions too, lest I lock the front wheel and lift the back off the ground in the process. Something I have done. But at the end of the day, I don't see any of this as a compelling argument precisely because it's not really worse than my bikes. The technique is different, but I can still produce a comparable end result. So your comment of "no way to stop fast on a standup scooter" still perplexes me. And I thought the whole point is that we are talking about emergency braking. Nobody should _want_ to be doing this sort of braking all the time.
> 
> That said, there's certainly some limitations to the geometry of scooters, stability being the one that jumped out to me the most as I started to learn how to ride (and why having the steering damper on the Pegasus is interesting). But braking technique is actually easier for me because I don't have the scooter itself in the way of me adjusting my center of gravity when I have to. But if I was maybe 20 years older, I probably wouldn't have an easy a time.
> 
> In the case of the Ninebot, I suspect the reason it doesn't have a front brake is precisely to make it easier to control in braking situations by avoiding the whole "front wheel locks with good traction and almost all forward momentum gets converted into rotational movement". It isn't perfect in slick conditions, but it still manages to keep up with a lot of dual-brake scooters in the price range in terms of stopping distance.



Right, the weight balance on the Ninebot is such that it isn't going front end over end as implied. I literally zoom right up to my stopping point and hammer the breaks and it comes to an immediate stop without any issues every time. This claim is pretty much baseless.


----------



## Nycturne

Eric said:


> Right, the weight balance on the Ninebot is such that it isn't going front end over end as implied. I literally zoom right up to my stopping point and hammer the breaks and it comes to an immediate stop without any issues every time. This claim is pretty much baseless.



Oh, I have no doubt that I could throw _myself_ over the front of the bars in the right conditions if I'm not paying attention. And it is common enough that videos like the one I shared are providing a useful service. 

I just don't see this as a novel problem. People need to be trained on safe use of pretty much any vehicle, and they all have quirks and differences.


----------



## Eric

Nycturne said:


> Oh, I have no doubt that I could throw _myself_ over the front of the bars in the right conditions if I'm not paying attention. And it is common enough that videos like the one I shared are providing a useful service.
> 
> I just don't see this as a novel problem. People need to be trained on safe use of pretty much any vehicle, and they all have quirks and differences.



Fair enough, not having looked at any videos I can only speak for my own experiences and I've never come close to anything like that. At least with my weight (around 175) when I hammer the breaks at full speed I can stop on a dime, even on hills. I would think it would take a lot of force to throw one over the handle bars or even thrust them forward because so much of the weight is in the center to rear.


----------



## Nycturne

The Pegasus showed up earlier than I expected today. Early thoughts:

Steering with a damper means you want to lean into turns more, but that combined with the suspension makes it take the poorly maintained roads in my neighborhood quite well. It also is generally more stable up to around 20mph and has less stem “shimmy” at speed (I haven’t even used it on the third “gear” which unlocks the full speed). Climbs hills that the Ninebot stalled on, and does 18mph up hills the Ninebot could only do 6mph on. So far I think the core of what is here is quite good and does address the few complaints.

Acceleration is quite leisurely and picks up the longer you are on the throttle. This can be tweaked, but it works well for cruising, and does help with the default being able to throttle from a dead stop. I might convert it to kick start in the settings. Max speed is higher than the manual states. I was going 12mph and 18-19mph in first and second “gears” which is plenty and I don’t see myself using 3rd without more protective gear.

Bad side is that it is very much cost cut. Rattles here and there from things that are a little loose and could have used a washer or two. You need to take time to adjust the brakes and handlebar for good fit or you will have a bad time (my brake pads were rubbing the rotors out of the box). The kickstand should really be longer. The battery pack seems decent enough but has some noticeable voltage sag (almost 3V) when pulling 1kW out of it. So it clearly isn’t quite on the same level of polish as the Ninebot, but was only 100-200$ more. So not surprising.

That said, the battery is “good enough”, the rattles I can fix cheaply, and really the actual thing itself does fine. They did change the stem lock to make it more trouble free in more recent batches (no reviewer seems to have it and the manual still discusses the old lock) which is a good sign that they are looking at ways to improve the thing. When the battery dies I can replace it with a similar 18650 lithium ion pack using better cells and more range if I want. For now I’ll leave it stock.


----------



## Eric

Nycturne said:


> The Pegasus showed up earlier than I expected today. Early thoughts:
> 
> Steering with a damper means you want to lean into turns more, but that combined with the suspension makes it take the poorly maintained roads in my neighborhood quite well. It also is generally more stable up to around 20mph and has less stem “shimmy” at speed (I haven’t even used it on the third “gear” which unlocks the full speed). Climbs hills that the Ninebot stalled on, and does 18mph up hills the Ninebot could only do 6mph on. So far I think the core of what is here is quite good and does address the few complaints.
> 
> Acceleration is quite leisurely and picks up the longer you are on the throttle. This can be tweaked, but it works well for cruising, and does help with the default being able to throttle from a dead stop. I might convert it to kick start in the settings. Max speed is higher than the manual states. I was going 12mph and 18-19mph in first and second “gears” which is plenty and I don’t see myself using 3rd without more protective gear.
> 
> Bad side is that it is very much cost cut. Rattles here and there from things that are a little loose and could have used a washer or two. You need to take time to adjust the brakes and handlebar for good fit or you will have a bad time (my brake pads were rubbing the rotors out of the box). The kickstand should really be longer. The battery pack seems decent enough but has some noticeable voltage sag (almost 3V) when pulling 1kW out of it. So it clearly isn’t quite on the same level of polish as the Ninebot, but was only 100-200$ more. So not surprising.
> 
> That said, the battery is “good enough”, the rattles I can fix cheaply, and really the actual thing itself does fine. They did change the stem lock to make it more trouble free in more recent batches (no reviewer seems to have it and the manual still discusses the old lock) which is a good sign that they are looking at ways to improve the thing. When the battery dies I can replace it with a similar 18650 lithium ion pack using better cells and more range if I want. For now I’ll leave it stock.



Great to hear it's a better fit, despite its shortcomings which really don't seem to be too major all considering. The ability to climb hills is important but I would also think a decent suspension makes all the difference in the world, the Ninebot is pretty rigid on bumpy roads and I totally get what you're saying about handle bar shake and the lack of feeling stable at higher speeds.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us here, I'll definitely keep my eye on this thing.


----------



## Nycturne

Eric said:


> Great to hear it's a better fit, despite its shortcomings which really don't seem to be too major all considering. The ability to climb hills is important but I would also think a decent suspension makes all the difference in the world, the Ninebot is pretty rigid on bumpy roads and I totally get what you're saying about handle bar shake and the lack of feeling stable at higher speeds.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your experiences with us here, I'll definitely keep my eye on this thing.




As I’ve been racking up the miles on this: the suspension works best for the larger things you run across in streets and paths. Roots cracking the pavement, dips and small potholes/etc. Keeps things under control when you have to deal with that. But gravel, dirt and gritty asphalt? The solid tires like to communicate that all right up into the scooter. But overall, it’s still an improvement over no suspension at all. All in all, I feel like I have

Got brave enough to do a little riding at 21mph on this thing on roads I know well. Stable. Even at 15mph, I can lean pretty hard and still get good traction because of the very wide tires. It takes getting used to, but it is interesting once you do. 

I took the bottom off to take a look inside the deck. Mostly to see what the battery looked like in terms of size. The battery pack seems to be a bit longer than it needs to be for a 13S6P 18650 pack, and it looks like the battery is padded a bit to take up the space. Could probably fit a 14S6P pack in there and make it a 52V setup for longer range. I wonder why they didn’t do that. 

In terms of raw build quality, did notice that one of the kickstand bolt holes wasn’t threaded fully, so the screw can’t fully tighten. The kickstand still works and doesn’t move, but if the one good bolt ever comes loose, so does the kickstand. Might consider getting a slightly shorter bolt so it stays in the threads that are there. There is a tiny bit of play in the stem with the new clamp which doesn’t affect riding (I didn’t even notice it until I had put over 30mi on the thing), which can probably be adjusted. Again, no deal breakers, but it’s a bit clear that this was built to price.

From an engineering perspective though, not bad. The deck casting is done well (other than the thread tapping error) and it is clear that making space for cables and cable routing was a core idea. All the wiring has a place to either go, holders to keep it in place when needed (complete with threaded mounting points in the deck, and channels for wiring heading to the stem or the motors, which is good for a single piece casting like this. Charger wires go straight to the battery pack, using an XT40(?) connector. So clearly the pack itself contains the BMS, which isn’t surprising. Then two XT60 connectors come off the battery pack, each going to a motor controller, one for the front, one for the back. The power connectors off the battery are fused and the fuses replaceable. Neat little addition is the casting of the deck is such that some foam helps hold the battery pack which is encased in insulating epoxy resin boards. And there is a cage that further restrains the battery and prevents it from moving. The bottom half of the deck is plastic, but a metal skid plate helps provide even more protection for the battery and other electronics. About the only complaint about what I saw inside was the motor controllers didn’t seem to have any clear mountings, either they were buried under the routed wires, or they were possibly glued in. I’d be somewhat surprised if they were glued in though, since they would be the only thing glued into the deck other than foam.

Yeah, a little cheap in some component selection (that battery voltage sag…), but I don’t feel like they cut corners on the electrical work and battery protection which is good. I would have put the fuse holders on the other side of the XT60 connectors, so that they don’t add cost to battery replacements since the fuses are replaceable separately, though. 

I’m somewhat curious if the system could take 52V or not from the battery (the e-bike controller technically can, but can the motors?) since there is space for a 14S6P pack in the deck. But it would still be possible to go from a 48V/15.6Ah pack (2600mAh cells) to a 48V/20.7Ah pack (3450mAh cells) at roughly the same weight down the road.


----------



## Nycturne

DT said:


> I've seen good reviews on various sites,  some people cite less well known brands as "better value", but I've heard Segue has excellent customer service, so that factors into the price (vs. an AliExpress Special )  Good specs, excellent range, and close to 20MPH top speed on a scooter is pretty quick!




I think this is the crux of it, honestly. And it reveals something I kinda hate about how markets work these days. These other brands can be very good platforms, and very good spec sheet value per dollar, but there's a very myopic "value/dollar" thing going on. 3D printers are kinda the same way right now. I get some of it is due to rising economic inequality that makes it such that mass market products are going to be more like this, but it honestly sucks. It reminds me of the bit about how the rich person who can afford the nicer shoes spends less on shoes than the poor person.

But here's the thing that I think Segway does really well and doesn't get nearly enough credit for: Holistic thinking about the product. The P100S is a 25mph (30mph unlockable) scooter with proper turn signals (hell, those are useful at 15mph on residential roads where you will encounter cars, but few scooters have them at all). Speed restriction features to keep it under 20mph you can toggle from the app. Brakes that aren't cheap and squeaky. Better battery cells that make range estimation easier. Build quality to match. Not as cheap as the competition, but the competition generally builds to hit spec targets and make it as cheap as possible once the spec targets are met, so it's not going to be easy to build for a quality target and be price competitive against that these days.

While I do think the Varla Pegasus is a good scooter for what it offers, I don't think I'd recommend it over the Segway if price isn't your key concern. And looking what it would take to address the brakes, give it a larger battery, etc, etc... I'm not that far off the price of just a better scooter (or the P100S during the pre-order sales). So I'd honestly rather just recommend people spend up for quality, rather than modify a scooter (unless you already have a scooter you like).


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## Nycturne

I should pay more attention to peak motor power too. For grins I compared the Varla in 1WD with the Ninebot Max. 9% extra weight, 14% extra peak motor power (500/800W vs 350/700W in the Ninebot). Climbs hills at the same speed in the real world. 42% higher nominal motor power though, which apparently means less than I thought in these climbs. Also notice that the power curve in 1WD is limp compared to the Ninebot until after tweaking the acceleration P setting.

2WD at 1000/1600W though is another matter. But with the P100S at 650/1350W on a single motor, should have surprisingly decent hill climbing.


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## Nycturne

So, I wound up with a P100S, and a Varla Pegasus to sell.

My last couple of posts called it, to be honest. Sure, it's not as fast as some in the price range, but I'll take the safety features and smooth throttle any day of the week. And as I pondered back in October, the spec sheets definitely only give you a piece of the whole picture. This thing climbs hills just as well as the Pegasus in Sport, despite being a single motor vs dual motor.


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## rdrr

Electric scooters got banned from a campus here in Boston.  Students are being told to bring them home or they will get confiscated and given a fine. 

Cited lots of serious accidents, including running into pedestrians.
Fires from batteries overheating (although I cannot find any fires on record).  Maybe this is a general US cited cause?

Anyways...  I think that this will become the trend for other college campuses and maybe some Cities will also start restricting their use.


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## Nycturne

rdrr said:


> Electric scooters got banned from a campus here in Boston.  Students are being told to bring them home or they will get confiscated and given a fine.
> 
> Cited lots of serious accidents, including running into pedestrians.
> 
> <...>
> 
> Anyways... I think that this will become the trend for other college campuses and maybe some Cities will also start restricting their use.




I wouldn't mind more regulation here. Specifically because the whole market is a bit of a mess. You've got the cheap stuff that can go about 10-15mph. But you also have stuff that starts climbing into the 30+ mph range very quickly for not much more, much of it with the budget going almost entirely into the motors and controllers, and what's left going into the battery. I _don't_ want scooters that require motorcycle gear on multi-use paths flaunting the posted speed limits. Same with electric unicycles, one wheels, etc. One wheels in particular are tricky to use safely, and have some rather ugly failure modes as they depend on battery power to maintain balance while it's in use.

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing these start getting lumped in with class 2 e-bikes and have to follow the same rules (max speeds, access to multi-use paths, etc). And in areas that are supposed to be pedestrian-only, disallowed. One reason I got in line for the Segway P100S is that I can put it into such a mode (limited to 20mph, easy to control at the <10mph speeds needed in more congested areas of multi-use trails) and be able to follow the rules of the areas I intend to use it. I'm of the mind that we need to strike the right balance to avoid throwing out the baby with the bath water.

That said, I'm mixed on Boston College's statement here. On one hand, they do have an absolute right to ask what's up with scooters being brought into and/or causing access issues for the facilities, and to address accidents happening on campus. That said, as bikes and e-bikes are still allowed on campus, I think this is akin to the early conflicts with Snowboarders, rather than these being used in pedestrian-only spaces or in some other blatantly irresponsible way. Outright bans aren't a great answer for mixed-use spaces, IMO, but it'll also take time to properly reach the right balance because there's no clear guidance for anyone to follow (industry, local governments, etc). BC themselves say:



> Many faculty, staff, and students have reported near-collisions and limited access to facilities because of scooters, and recharging lithium batteries in such vehicles has resulted in numerous fires around the United States.  Additionally, a number of BC students have suffered injuries from e-scooter falls, and such accidents have caused serious injuries on college campuses across the country.




So I'd be somewhat careful how you read into that. It sounds like in the case of BC, they are saying that scooter riders are not showing proper care navigating around pedestrians and causing many reported near-collections, and at the same time, injuring themselves when they faceplant on a scooter or skateboard they don't know how to properly control, or when using it inappropriately. It's also vague enough that it points out a problem, but doesn't have enough detail to describe enough specifics to understand the nature of the problem and if other options might be feasible. But that's not the point of these sort of statements either, it's a statement about new policy, not the thinking behind that policy.

There's a reason why the bike industry itself pushed for the "3 class" laws in the US for e-bikes. It helped side-step a lot of this early flailing about, but even then you see the "Snowboarder conflicts" there. Local DNR lands prohibit e-bikes of any class, partly because MTB groups have been pushing against it. So as a I result I can't even ride my class 1 e-bike on the gravel fire roads that are wide enough and built for vehicles, and I'm not interested in the single track that the MTB folks are trying to "protect". As I said earlier on, baby and bath water.



rdrr said:


> Fires from batteries overheating (although I cannot find any fires on record).  Maybe this is a general US cited cause?




Fires from lithium batteries in *e-bikes and e-scooters* are up in NYC (as one of the few places tracking this), and that's probably what they are citing. As the number of incidents are rising in NYC by almost 100% in 2022, the city does want to get ahead of this trend. Interestingly, this article goes into a bit of detail as to where these fires are happening. Lower income areas are interestingly harder hit than other areas. So e-bikes are also part of this statistic, not just e-scooters. Which leads me to my question/argument in this space:

One thing that I would want to know is more about the batteries themselves and their origin. These cells are common in many kinds of laptop batteries that still use cells rather than pouches, power tools, etc. So it's not an inherent issue with the type of cells used in e-bikes and e-scooters. But there's a growing DIY community using cheap BMS units off Aliexpress to build cheaper batteries with no-name cells. The e-scooter market in particular is dominated by Chinese dropship brands fighting on how cheap they can make extremely fast scooters, so I have questions on what sort of BMS these units use, and what type of cells. Cheap cells with low QC can create problems where the cells may not be properly balanced at assembly, and if the BMS lets a cell get too discharged... welp...

E-bikes aren't immune to this issue either, as the article points out. It's a bit easier to stick with an established brand with e-bikes and reduce the risk though, because of the dominance of drop shippers in the e-scooter market.

This is another reason that I'd personally stick with someone like Ninebot/Segway if at all possible. They are approaching the market much more like an established brand, rather than a drop-shipper trying to make hay with cheap goods an nonexistent support/service.


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## Nycturne

I’ll just add that in EU, both e-bikes and e-scooters are limited to 25kph (or about 15.5mph). Here, e-bikes are limited to 20mph for class 1/2, but there’s nothing for e-scooters in most cases. This is where I think the US falls down. 

Speed pedelecs in EU are limited to 45kph, and class 3 in the US to 28mph. In EU, these are regulated as mopeds, and so aren’t allowed on bike paths and the like. It’s up to individual states in the US, but in my area, they are treated as unlicensed mopeds and so can’t use bike paths and need to share the street with cars.

I wouldn’t necessarily mind a similar distinction with e-scooters, but like e-bikes there’s some question about how can you tell the difference between them for enforcement. Other than just fining those caught speeding. If someone on a class 3 e-bike in the US is doing 15 mph on multi-use paths and not riding in way that endangers others, it’s going to be hard to spot. And I would be hesitant to fine someone following the spirit of the regulation in that case anyways. 

In my time on the shared paths in King County, which has included over 1000mi of riding in the last year or two, I haven’t run into many bad users of the path. What scooters and electric unicycles I’ve seen were more interested in being outside than rushing somewhere. What I have seen are small dirt bikes that shouldn’t be there and riding well in excess of the speed limit. The most common complaint I’ve had is actually the road bike users. The kind with the lightest bike possible, which means no bell, going as fast as possible, which means getting to 25mph on a 15mph path. I’ve had these folks consistently blast by me without so much as an ”on your left”. And they are doing it in congested areas.


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