# How can there not be a COVID-19 thread?



## SuperMatt

The latest Trump planner thinks that 200,000 deaths is too few. He’s going for 2 million!









						Trump's new pandemic boss Scott Atlas pushes 'herd immunity' plan, 2 million+ Americans would have to die | Boing Boing
					

“With a population of 328 million in the United States, it may require 2.13 million deaths to reach a 65 percent threshold of herd immunity, assuming the virus has a 1 percent fatality rate, accord…




					boingboing.net


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## Eric

It's all good, they got Herman Cain to sign off on it so there's that.









						Herman Cain Twitter account downplays Covid-19 weeks after he died of virus
					

Tweet was based on misleading interpretation of CDC data




					www.independent.co.uk


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## SuperMatt

ericgtr12 said:


> It's all good, they got Herman Cain to sign off on it so there's that.
> 
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> Herman Cain Twitter account downplays Covid-19 weeks after he died of virus
> 
> 
> Tweet was based on misleading interpretation of CDC data
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> www.independent.co.uk




WTF? I thought Twitter didn’t allow such accounts. Maybe I should start an account for Ronald Reagan.


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## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> WTF? I thought Twitter didn’t allow such accounts. Maybe I should start an account for Ronald Reagan.



I shit you not, they've change the name of the account and taken it over... this post downplaying it is from today. Unbelievable.


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## lizkat

SuperMatt said:


> The latest Trump planner thinks that 200,000 deaths is too few. He’s going for 2 million!
> 
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> Trump's new pandemic boss Scott Atlas pushes 'herd immunity' plan, 2 million+ Americans would have to die | Boing Boing
> 
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> “With a population of 328 million in the United States, it may require 2.13 million deaths to reach a 65 percent threshold of herd immunity, assuming the virus has a 1 percent fatality rate, accord…
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> boingboing.net




That theory of reaching herd immunity while protecting the more vulnerable from fatal infection might be worth something in the USA if it were more evident that slightly less than half the country doesn't feel it their duty to ignore masking and social distancing entirely on  partisan grounds...  i.e.,  that only Democrats believe it's necessary or even that only Democrats think covid-19 is not just a hoax and "lots of people get the flu even in summer".

In other words the trick here would be in getting a lot of around half the country to sign up for the idea that protecting the vulnerable is even an option, never mind patriotic. 

Not sure how we got so lost but Trump has had a lot to do with it in my biased opinion.


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## SuperMatt

Herd immunity explained by an actual expert:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1299393918426116099/


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## DT

I heard that was over.


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## Eric

SMH. I don't know that I've ever been more embarrassed of my country.









						U.S. Won’t Join Global Coronavirus Vaccine Effort Because It’s Led By The WHO
					

The WHO has warned against “vaccine nationalism.”




					www.forbes.com


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## Yoused

According to worldmeters, total losses in the US have exceeded the urban population of the city @Alli lives in/near


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## Alli

Yoused said:


> According to worldmeters, total losses in the US have exceeded the urban population of the city @Alli lives in/near




I wonder what it will take before it matters to people.


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## DT

@PearsonX









						A Supercomputer Analyzed Covid-19 — and an Interesting New Theory Has Emerged
					

A closer look at the Bradykinin hypothesis




					elemental.medium.com


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## User.45

Perfect timing, as I wanted to post this:








						COVID-19 Can Wreck Your Heart, Even if You Haven’t Had Any Symptoms
					

A growing body of research is raising concerns about the cardiac consequences of the coronavirus




					www.scientificamerican.com


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## User.45

D_T said:


> @PearsonX
> 
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> A Supercomputer Analyzed Covid-19 — and an Interesting New Theory Has Emerged
> 
> 
> A closer look at the Bradykinin hypothesis
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> 
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> 
> elemental.medium.com



Interesting... I need to read a little more about this. I think some of the things are overreported here, like I didn't even know that ACE-Inhibitors can cause loss of taste and smell. It's also listed as rare side-effect  of lisinopril for example (the range I consider study noise as all these stuff had to be documented in a trial), so if it is true, it probable takes genetic susceptibility. The brain effect seems to be luckily overblown, as per my conversations with neurologists/neurointensivists who took care of COVID patients. Though a weird thing one of them mentioned is hyperexcitation and unusually high sedative dose requirements. I personally haven't picked up a high "brain signal" here, that could not be explained by a rough ICU admission.  Another intensivist colleague told me that hypotension (low blood pressure) was weirdly unusual for crashing COVID patients. This also kinda opposes the ACE-inhibition hypothesis.
On the other hand, early on there was some panic about ACE-inhibitors increasing mortality/susceptibility with covid as they come with upregulation of ACE...but I checked a few weeks ago and that mortality signal doesn't exist either. BTW, hydroxychloroquine downregulates ACE (again stuff I learned thanks to COVID...), but if the virus can overcome this effect, that also explains why it is so ineffective later in the disease course (it is still evaluated as a postexposure prophylactic, but you need a huuuuuge sample size to confirm such effect...).


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## User.45

lizkat said:


> That theory of reaching herd immunity while protecting the more vulnerable from fatal infection might be worth something in the USA if it were more evident that slightly less than half the country doesn't feel it their duty to ignore masking and social distancing entirely on  partisan grounds...  i.e.,  that only Democrats believe it's necessary or even that only Democrats think covid-19 is not just a hoax and "lots of people get the flu even in summer".
> 
> In other words the trick here would be in getting a lot of around half the country to sign up for the idea that protecting the vulnerable is even an option, never mind patriotic.
> 
> Not sure how we got so lost but Trump has had a lot to do with it in my biased opinion.



Herd immunity is not happening. This is like a California wildfire, by the time one end finishes burning the other end gets ablaze again, and it will go around in circles of seasons.

This is why I'm so unimpressed by, but also grateful for the Swedish response. They'll serve as a control. You need 40-70% infection for herd immunity, that is 130M Americans at the very least. It you make the assumption that we have detected 10% of the actual cases, then we are less than halfway there in 6 months. The big issue is that antibodies are lost against coronaviridae over months, this applies to strains that just cause "cold", MERS, SARS-CoV-1 and as far as we can tell with about 9mo worth of data, with SARS-CoV-2 as well.

So for us to reach herd immunity we'd need immunity developing fast and lasting long enough to reach the magic number (which I think is closer to 70%), before people start losing their immunity.


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## DT

PearsonX said:


> Interesting... I need to read a little more about this.




That's definitely why @'ed you to bring it your attention, I figured you could run it through your SME parser


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## Eric

PearsonX said:


> Herd immunity is not happening. This is like a California wildfire, by the time one end finishes burning the other end gets ablaze again, and it will go around in circles in seasons.
> 
> This is why I'm so unimpressed by, but also grateful for the Swedish response. They'll serve as a control. You need 40-70% infection for herd immunity, that is 130M Americans at the very least. It you make the assumption that we have detected 10% of the actual cases, then we are less than halfway there in 6 months. The big issue is that antibodies are lost against coronaviridae over months, this apples to strains that just cause "cold", MERS, SARS-CoV-1 and as far as we can tell with about 9mo worth of data, with SARS-CoV-2 as well.
> 
> So for us to reach herd immunity we'd need immunity developing fast and lasting long enough to reach the magic number (which I think is closer to 70%), before people start losing their immunity.





D_T said:


> That's definitely why @'ed you to bring it your attention, I figured you could run it through your SME parser



Interesting read with numbers that are easy to understand, I enjoy these posts. Gavin Newsom is the same way, doesn't seem to be playing politics with it when he has his conferences, he really knows the numbers inside and out and cites them exactly. I'll always pay closer attention to that than some anecdotal or arbitrary talking point just to espouse a political view. Let the facts speak for themselves.


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## Citizenzen

ericgtr12 said:


> Interesting read with numbers that are easy to understand, I enjoy these posts. Gavin Newsom is the same way, doesn't seem to be playing politics with it when he has his conferences, he really knows the numbers inside and out and cites them exactly. I'll always pay closer attention to that than some anecdotal or arbitrary talking point just to espouse a political view. Let the facts speak for themselves.




i was impressed with how Newsome handled the virus early on.  But he caved under pressure when trump pushed for society to open up.


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## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> Interesting read with numbers that are easy to understand, I enjoy these posts. Gavin Newsom is the same way, doesn't seem to be playing politics with it when he has his conferences, he really knows the numbers inside and out and cites them exactly. I'll always pay closer attention to that than some anecdotal or arbitrary talking point just to espouse a political view. Let the facts speak for themselves.





Player7592 said:


> i was impressed with how Newsome handled the virus early on.  But he caved under pressure when trump pushed for society to open up.





I generally liked Newsome's approach. They were also the first state I was aware of that had concrete criteria as to when and how a reopening can be considered. I honestly don't understand what transpired in California in the summer. Hence, I avoid the topic until I have an explanation. (It's really hard to keep up with the timing of interventions...and that reflects on the performance of the federal government and the president who hindered it).

BTW, one interesting aspect   of COVID and this is why I don't think there is winning until a vaccine emerges is:
1. It spreads through asymptomatic people...i.e. the only way to monitor the spread is testing and tracing
2. Asymptomatic people develop weaker immunity to the virus
3. Those with weaker immunity lose their antibodies and go undetected in a matter of weeks (~2mo?) by the antibody testing
4. Preliminary data indicates that masks reduce disease severity, I.e. increase the proportion of asymptomatic infections
5. The circle restarts: if you had no symptoms, you might as well be considered never having had the disease from the immunity stand point.

So I think from a herd immunity stand point it's those with symptoms that count to the tally, and those numbers would take 2-3 years for us to get the desired numbers of herd immunity. Add the heart involvement that is detected regardless of severity, and it tells you how messed up the situation is.
Also, now that schools reopened, healthy kids had a 15% ICU admission rate with the infection. That's very scary even if the peds side (in my limited experience) tends to have a lower threshold for ICU than the adult.


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## User.45

PearsonX said:


> I generally liked Newsome's approach. They were also the first state I was aware of that had concrete criteria as to when and how a reopening can be considered. I honestly don't understand what transpired in California in the summer. Hence, I avoid the topic until I have an explanation. (It's really hard to keep up with the timing of interventions...and that reflects on the performance of the federal government and the president who hindered it).
> 
> BTW, one interesting aspect   of COVID and this is why I don't think there is winning until a vaccine emerges is:
> 1. It spreads through asymptomatic people...i.e. the only way to monitor the spread is testing and tracing
> 2. Asymptomatic people develop weaker immunity to the virus
> 3. Those with weaker immunity lose their antibodies and go undetected in a matter of weeks (~2mo?) by the antibody testing
> 4. Preliminary data indicates that masks reduce disease severity, I.e. increase the proportion of asymptomatic infections
> 5. The circle restarts: if you had no symptoms, you might as well be considered never having had the disease from the immunity stand point.
> 
> So I think from a herd immunity stand point it's those with symptoms that count to the tally, and those numbers would take 2-3 years for us to get the desired numbers of herd immunity. Add the heart involvement that is detected regardless of severity, and it tells you how messed up the situation is.
> Also, now that schools reopened, healthy kids had a 15% ICU admission rate with the infection. That's very scary even if the peds side (in my limited experience) tends to have a lower threshold for ICU than the adult.



And that takes me to how pissed I was at Bill Maher when he interviewed some sports anchor about "why it's stupid to pause pro sports seasons" and the guys was talking about improved therapeutics (was totally clueless), and totally forgot about the heart stuff which can easily kill someone who's expected to perform on the level of a pro athlete.


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## JayMysteri0

When you aren't playing around with this shit anymore.


> Woman Arrested For Facebook Post Promoting Anti-Lockdown Protest in Australia
> 
> 
> Police in Australia arrested a 28-year-old woman on Wednesday for publishing a Facebook post that promotes an anti-lockdown protest in the country’s state of Victoria. Footage of the arrest was captured by her partner and shows police officers handcuffing the woman and saying that she’s being...
> 
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> gizmodo.com






> Police in Australia arrested a 28-year-old woman on Wednesday for publishing a Facebook post that promotes an anti-lockdown protest in the country’s state of Victoria. Footage of the arrest was captured by her partner and shows police officers handcuffing the woman and saying that she’s being charged with “incitement.” The woman’s phone and computers were also seized.
> 
> The video, which was livestreamed on Facebook, has gone viral and shows the police eventually taking possession of the phone that was broadcasting the encounter. Over two million people have watched the video so far.
> 
> “It’s in relation to a Facebook post, in relation to a lockdown protest you put on just that day,” detective Adrian Smith with the Victorian Police told the woman as she was handcuffed in her home.
> 
> “I wasn’t breaking any laws by doing that,” the woman said, explaining that she had an ultrasound scheduled in an hour because she’s pregnant.
> 
> “You are actually. You are breaking the law,” Smith responded. “That’s why I’m arresting you.”






> Australia remains the only wealthy democracy in the world that doesn’t have anything equivalent to America’s First Amendment protections for free speech. And even though it’s clear lockdowns are sometimes necessary to defeat this global pandemic, it’s hard to justify arresting someone and seizing all of their electronics simply for posting about a protest on Facebook. This will likely only inspire covid-deniers to become more ridiculous and radicalized than they already are.


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## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> When you aren't playing around with this shit anymore.



The "WTF is this" look on her face is priceless.   






All I know is I'm being extremely careful about what I put on my FB page right now, they're cracking the whip.


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## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> The "WTF is this" look on her face is priceless.
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> All I know is I'm being extremely careful about what I put on my FB page right now, they're cracking the whip.



It was tragicomical.


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## Alli

Interesting article in showing the long-lasting effects of COVID that few people are willing to discuss.



			https://www.centredaily.com/sports/college/penn-state-university/psu-football/article245448050.html


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## User.45

Alli said:


> Interesting article in showing the long-lasting effects of COVID that few people are willing to discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.centredaily.com/sports/college/penn-state-university/psu-football/article245448050.html




You're missing a lot from MR I posted an article on this issue and VrDrew's response was: once this is over these fear mongering scientists will be lined up and shot.


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## Alli

PearsonX said:


> You're missing a lot from MR I posted an article on this issue and VrDrew's response was: once this is over these fear mongering scientists will be lined up and shot.




Christonacrutch.


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## Eric

PearsonX said:


> You're missing a lot from MR I posted an article on this issue and VrDrew's response was: once this is over these fear mongering scientists will be lined up and shot.



Wow, really? The amount of pushback against real scientists is just frightening. As I recall he is a nutjob and MR loves to give these guys a free pass to spread this shit all over their forums but if you tell him to "get over himself" you'll be penalized.


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## Citizenzen

PearsonX said:


> You're missing a lot from MR I posted an article on this issue and VrDrew's response was: once this is over these fear mongering scientists will be lined up and shot.



That doesn't sound like the VrDrew that I used to know and love.


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## User.45

Citizenzen said:


> That doesn't sound like the VrDrew that I used to know and love.



Don't take my word for it. I think he has some mental health issues, but he developed this delusion that masks make COVID worse.


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## Citizenzen

PearsonX said:


> Don't take my word for it. I think he has some mental health issues, but he developed this delusion that masks make COVID worse.
> View attachment 326




Wow.  Sorry to hear that.  He used to be a consistently reasonable voice in PRSI.


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## Eric

Citizenzen said:


> Wow.  Sorry to hear that.  He used to be a consistently reasonable voice in PRSI.



I get that some question this stuff but he's gone full blown batshit, that looks like the rant of a rabid Trump supporter right there.


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## lizkat

In the ongoing saga of a spike in covid-19 on campus of SUNY-Oneonta (upstate NY),  100 new cases were reported today on top the 44 new ones of yesterday and that's it, they're shutting down in person instruction this term.  They had set aside dorms for quarantine and isolation after testing, so I guess those folks will remain until they're clear.



			https://www.thedailystar.com/news/local_news/alert-suny-oneonta-to-close-campus-for-semester/article_b37b7ef8-ee0b-11ea-8d27-473482c90d4b.html
		



Wow.   389 new cases total from that source is 3 times the original caseload in the whole county until the college opened 2 weeks ago (and promptly experienced some unauthorized parties..  this outbreak has even made national news).

I sure god hope the spike didn't catch on in the surrounding community and that the kids don't export it back to NYC,  where a lot of them do hail from.

Businesses in the local area were just starting to see things looking up again after re-opening sometime in late July, now some are shutting down again.


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## User.45

lizkat said:


> In the ongoing saga of a spike in covid-19 on campus of SUNY-Oneonta (upstate NY),  100 new cases were reported today on top the 44 new ones of yesterday and that's it, they're shutting down in person instruction this term.  They had set aside dorms for quarantine and isolation after testing, so I guess those folks will remain until they're clear.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thedailystar.com/news/local_news/alert-suny-oneonta-to-close-campus-for-semester/article_b37b7ef8-ee0b-11ea-8d27-473482c90d4b.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow.   389 new cases total from that source is 3 times the original caseload in the whole county until the college opened 2 weeks ago (and promptly experienced some unauthorized parties..  this outbreak has even made national news).
> 
> I sure god hope the spike didn't catch on in the surrounding community and that the kids don't export it back to NYC,  where a lot of them do hail from.
> 
> Businesses in the local area were just starting to see things looking up again after re-opening sometime in late July, now some are shutting down again.




I don't know what anybody expected....


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## lizkat

PearsonX said:


> I don't know what anybody expected....




Only three of the SUNY colleges in the whole system decided in advance to go for online-only education this term.   Think it was Stony Brook, Buffalo and Albany.   we have a couple more around here, one in Cobleskill and one in Delhi.  Not sure what they've decided now that they see what _can_ happen. 

It's pretty hard to keep a lid on college kids anyway, so always some town-v-gown issues anyway.  But this will not make townspeople any more fond of them even if the students do represent a significant contribution to local business revenues in more normal times.    Hard to balance out the sentiment right now.    Earlier lockdowns of course hit all the businesses, so folks were hoping for the best as the schools re-opened.   Bummer it has not worked out well for anyone.


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## User.45

lizkat said:


> Only three of the SUNY colleges in the whole system decided in advance to go for online-only education this term.   Think it was Stony Brook, Buffalo and Albany.   we have a couple more around here, one in Cobleskill and one in Delhi.  Not sure what they've decided now that they see what _can_ happen.
> 
> It's pretty hard to keep a lid on college kids anyway, so always some town-v-gown issues anyway.  But this will not make townspeople any more fond of them even if the students do represent a significant contribution to local business revenues in more normal times.    Hard to balance out the sentiment right now.    Earlier lockdowns of course hit all the businesses, so folks were hoping for the best as the schools re-opened.   Bummer it has not worked out well for anyone.



I suspect you know my opinion. If we had a robust rolling federal intervention, PPE, and rational data collection on the utility of masks, and reopened when safe and not when trump wanted liberation, we would be in a better shape to do what we did anyway and failed. The outcome? The USA is a control group for the world to take COVID control measures seriously.


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## Eric

PearsonX said:


> I suspect you know my opinion. If we had a robust rolling federal intervention, PPE, and rational data collection on the utility of masks, and reopened when safe and not when trump wanted liberation, we would be in a better shape to do what we did anyway and failed. The outcome? The USA is a control group for the world to take COVID control measures seriously.



^ This. Biden is out there basically saying the same thing. Until we get control of it we cannot safely open the economy, schools or any of it. Just saying places are open without the proper steps poses two main issues from what I can see, first is that many do not have the confidence to do it, who goes out to an indoor restaurant without fear in some way? The other is many choose to go out are ignoring the basic protocols and furthering the spread. 

IMO the only way this is addressed is with a strong national response, the right mandates and guidelines as recommended by leading health professionals needs to be met and enforced, we know it works in other countries and it can work for us too. That will never happen with Trump in office.


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## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> ^ This. Biden is out there basically saying the same thing. Until we get control of it we cannot safely open the economy, schools or any of it. Just saying places are open without the proper steps poses two main issues from what I can see, first is that many do not have the confidence to do it, who goes out to an indoor restaurant without fear in some way? The other is many choose to go out are ignoring the basic protocols and furthering the spread.
> 
> IMO the only way this is addressed is with a strong national response, the right mandates and guidelines as recommended by leading health professionals needs to be met and enforced, we know it works in other countries and it can work for us too. That will never happen with Trump in office.



The thing with Americans culturally, is you cannot force many thing here. But If spoken to appropriately, Americans tend to listen on their own. And this is where the president has a role that cannot be bypassed or fulfilled if the president is not on board. Like masks. Trump has a direct responsibility. He also dug himself into an antimasker position for no justifiable reason other than spite.


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## Alli

Citizenzen said:


> That doesn't sound like the VrDrew that I used to know and love.





Citizenzen said:


> Wow.  Sorry to hear that.  He used to be a consistently reasonable voice in PRSI.




COVID pushed him over the edge. Not sure what brought him to the brink, but the mask thing totally did him in. It was sad to watch.


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## Eric

Alli said:


> COVID pushed him over the edge. Not sure what brought him to the brink, but the mask thing totally did him in. It was sad to watch.



I think we all have issues here and there where we have differing opinions but he really went off the reservation there, it was surprising to see actually.


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## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> I think we all have issues here and there where we have differing opinions but he really went off the reservation there, it was surprising to see actually.



It was fascinating. He forced me to re-review the literature in depth, so I learned a lot. Sadly, he didn't.


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## Eric

PearsonX said:


> It was fascinating. He forced me to re-review the literature in depth, so I learned a lot. Sadly, he didn't.



Respect for taking the time. IMO it was so angry and far out there that he's not worth it.


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## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> Respect for taking the time. IMO it was so angry and far out there that he's not worth it.



I was curious how much evidence will do it. Most people just stop posting after proven consistently wrong. He kept going at it.
The interesting thing is, he once cited analyses on only 19% of people needed for herd immunity, which was also posted by a physician acquaintance of mine on FB a week later. The same guy who shared all the fake news on Hillary. I suspect there's a deep conspiracy blog somewhere they get these stuff from that is not privy to my eyes.


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## Eric

PearsonX said:


> I was curious how much evidence will do it. Most people just stop posting after proven consistently wrong. He kept going at it.
> The interesting thing is, he once cited analyses on only 19% of people needed for herd immunity, which was also posted by a physician acquaintance of mine on FB a week later. The same guy who shared all the fake news on Hillary. I suspect there's a deep conspiracy blog somewhere they get these stuff from that is not privy to my eyes.



If that's the case it's likely snuffed by FB or Twitter, which I'm glad to see. MR doesn't seem to have any issues with users spreading known false information, things that were clearly removed from all the major social media sites are allowed to propagate there.


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## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> If that's the case it's likely snuffed by FB or Twitter, which I'm glad to see. MR doesn't seem to have any issues with users spreading known false information, things that were clearly removed from all the major social media sites are allowed to propagate there.



I know, I've reported him once because he reported something that was clearly fake news. No suspension.


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## SuperMatt

ericgtr12 said:


> If that's the case it's likely snuffed by FB or Twitter, which I'm glad to see. MR doesn't seem to have any issues with users spreading known false information, things that were clearly removed from all the major social media sites are allowed to propagate there.




And obvious racist memes, and every kind of objectionable content. But god forbid you call somebody a racist!


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## JayMysteri0

Once again a reminder of how prophetic the Pogo comic strip is...






> https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2020-09-08/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-may-have-caused-over-250-000-coronavirus-cases-report





> It also found that the rally generated about $12.2 billion in public health costs, which is based on the statistical cost of a COVID-19 case. This amount would have been enough to pay each rally goer over $26,000 *not* to attend, the report said.


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## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Once again a reminder of how prophetic the Pogo comic strip is...



I really have low expectations from humanity, but somehow this can still make me sad.


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## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.usnews.com/news/nationa...-caused-over-250-000-coronavirus-cases-report
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It also found that the rally generated about $12.2 billion in public health costs, which is based on the statistical cost of a COVID-19 case. This amount would have been enough to pay each rally goer over $26,000 not to attend, the report said.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



#PErsOnal REspONSIbiLIty!!!!!(*#@(*&(*&!!!!!!

(sorry, but I've heard personal responsibility so many fucking times the past 2 months). 

The first time I've heard about Sturgis was from a patient's husband. I'm standing there with a med student, both of us wearing white coats that had our institution's mythical creature colorfully embroidered on it. Husband delightfully exclaims that he loves said mythical creature and rips up his shirt sleeve to show his tattoo of it. Then goes on a 15 minute epic about Sturgis. Sounded fascinating. It was really the highlight of a slow day. 

It is the ultimate super spreader event. But hey. Some people still get to wear their "I survived Sturgis 2020" t-shirts, and based on the above stats, they only had to kill a 1000 people to enjoy it.


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## Eric

PearsonX said:


> #PErsOnal REspONSIbiLIty!!!!!(*#@(*&(*&!!!!!!
> 
> (sorry, but I've heard personal responsibility so many fucking times the past 2 months).
> 
> The first time I've heard about Sturgis was from a patient's husband. I'm standing there with a med student, both of us wearing white coats that had our institution's mythical creature colorfully embroidered on it. Husband delightfully exclaims that he loves said mythical creature and rips up his shirt sleeve to show his tattoo of it. Then goes on a 15 minute epic about Sturgis. Sounded fascinating. It was really the highlight of a slow day.
> 
> It is the ultimate super spreader event. But hey. Some people still get to wear their "I survived Sturgis 2020" t-shirts, and based on the above stats, they only had to kill a 1000 people to enjoy it.



It's amazing what people can't seem to skip for just one year for the good of everyone. 2020 is the year of "me me me, fuck everyone else".


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## JayMysteri0

I'm no molecular biologist, but I think this is correct
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1304056083221229568/


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## JayMysteri0

And then there's another side of all of this


> NPR Choice page





> "We allege that many of these defendants took the relief money offered by the PPP and spent it on things having absolutely nothing to do with relief," Rabbitt said. For example: A Miami man who allegedly obtained almost $4 million in funds and used some of this money to buy a Lamborghini.
> 
> Rabbitt said the cases varied in size and scope. Some were individuals who allegedly lied about details of their business – or its existence — and then used the funds for "illegitimate purposes," such as to buy luxury items. Others were involved in coordinated crime rings. The money the alleged fraudsters sought ranged from $30,000 to $24 million.
> 
> He stressed that the money taken fraudulently from the program took available funds away from businesses that needed them.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> And then there's another side of all of this



sigh.


----------



## JayMysteri0

PearsonX said:


> sigh.



The irony?

Some of these people MAY actually go to jail, even if it's a 'fed country club'.

You know, one of the two major places where covid has run rampant.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1304320395470921729/


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> The irony?
> 
> Some of these people MAY actually go to jail, even if it's a 'fed country club'.
> 
> You know, one of the two major places where covid has run rampant.




I'd be surprised if too many people went to jail TBH. 
Corruption is a feature not a bug.


----------



## SuperMatt

Interesting to the responses to different events.

After 9/11, people were willing to give up all sorts of freedoms, strip down at the airports, increased surveillance powers for the government, no water bottles allowed anywhere, etc.

When there’s a much deadlier pandemic, the same people will burn down their state Capitol if you ask them to wear a mask. It was about having an enemy. As long as people could blame Islam for the 9/11 attacks, they were on board for any reduction in their freedoms. When it’s a virus, they don’t have anybody to hate, so they lash out at the rules.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1304489200302071814/


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1304928387249500160/

Literally in lanes/lines like cattle to slaughter


----------



## Thomas Veil

PearsonX said:


> And that takes me to how pissed I was at Bill Maher when he interviewed some sports anchor about "why it's stupid to pause pro sports seasons"...



I like Bill Maher and he can be thought-provoking on _most_ subjects..but I’ve learned not to trust him on the topic of health. A few weeks ago he was telling young people to go out there and mingle and party and build up that herd immunity.  A few years back he gave air time to a quack doctor who insisted Mexico had an effective cancer treatment that was being suppressed in the United States. (The doctor was later discredited.)

Maher rightly challenges orthodox ideas, but in medicine his thoughts should be taken with a huge grain of salt.


----------



## Thomas Veil

ericgtr12 said:


> Wow, really? The amount of pushback against real scientists is just frightening...



Case in point:

A few months back Dr. Amy Acton headed the Ohio Department of Health. She guided Gov. Mke DeWine on how to navigate the Covid crisis in Ohio, and DeWine to his credit took her advice. Both were widely praised.

But then came the pushback. When the “re-open” people started getting nuts, she found her home being picketed and her family (including children) being threatened.

On top of that, the Ohio General Assembly decided her scientific approach was just too...scientific, and took away her authority to declare health emergencies.

That was it for her. She resigned shortly thereafter. And no one can blame her. 

Last week Gov. DeWine announced her replacement, Dr. Joan Duwve. Within _hours_, she resigned.



> The severe criticism and harassment of former Health Director Dr. Amy Acton caused her appointed successor to quit just a few hours after she was introduced by Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine.





> "In conversations preparing for the transition to the Ohio Department of Health, I was informed that the former director's family had faced harassment from the public," Dr. Joan Duwve said in a statement Friday afternoon.




My only question is how Dr. Duwve could have possibly _not_ been informed of the circumstances surrounding the job before she accepted.

But Ohio is looking for a health director again, one who is brave enough to stand up to the pro-Covid lunatic fringe...and is willing to accept the constraints put upon him or her by Ohio’s devolved legislature.

_Edited because I forgot to source the Dr. Duwve story from which I pulled the quote._


----------



## User.45

Thomas Veil said:


> I like Bill Maher and he can be thought-provoking on _most_ subjects..but I’ve learned not to trust him on the topic of health. A few weeks ago he was telling young people to go out there and mingle and party and build up that herd immunity.  A few years back he gave air time to a quack doctor who insisted Mexico had an effective cancer treatment that was being suppressed in the United States. (The doctor was later discredited.)
> 
> Maher rightly challenges orthodox ideas, but in medicine his thoughts should be taken with a huge grain of salt.



Usually the medical people he interviews are OK to even good, but he holds some views about medicine that are really just ignorant. 
Don't even get me started on cancer patients going to Tijuana to get ""Vitamin B17"" shots/pills whatever yet refusing to get some of the super few treatments that actually have some efficacy against their tumors.


----------



## User.45

Thomas Veil said:


> Case in point:
> 
> A few months back Dr. Amy Acton headed the Ohio Department of Health. She guided Gov. Mke DeWine on how to navigate the Covid crisis in Ohio, and DeWine to his credit took her advice. Both were widely praised.
> 
> But then came the pushback. When the “re-open” people started getting nuts, she found her home being picketed and her family (including children) being threatened.
> 
> On top of that, the Ohio General Assembly decided her scientific approach was just too...scientific, and took away her authority to declare health emergencies.
> 
> That was it for her. She resigned shortly thereafter. And no one can blame her.
> 
> Last week Gov. DeWine announced her replacement, Dr. Joan Duwve. Within _hours_, she resigned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My only question is how Dr. Duwve could have possibly _not_ been informed of the circumstances surrounding the job before she accepted.
> 
> But Ohio is looking for a health director again, one who is brave enough to stand up to the pro-Covid lunatic fringe...and is willing to accept the constraints put upon him or her by Ohio’s devolved legislature.



Threats against the kids of health officials is one of the most fucked up things... that the lunatics Trump lifted from the fringe to the mainstream do. Dunning-Kruger+Guns=Murica.


----------



## SuperMatt

Thomas Veil said:


> Case in point:
> 
> A few months back Dr. Amy Acton headed the Ohio Department of Health. She guided Gov. Mke DeWine on how to navigate the Covid crisis in Ohio, and DeWine to his credit took her advice. Both were widely praised.
> 
> But then came the pushback. When the “re-open” people started getting nuts, she found her home being picketed and her family (including children) being threatened.
> 
> On top of that, the Ohio General Assembly decided her scientific approach was just too...scientific, and took away her authority to declare health emergencies.
> 
> That was it for her. She resigned shortly thereafter. And no one can blame her.
> 
> Last week Gov. DeWine announced her replacement, Dr. Joan Duwve. Within _hours_, she resigned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My only question is how Dr. Duwve could have possibly _not_ been informed of the circumstances surrounding the job before she accepted.
> 
> But Ohio is looking for a health director again, one who is brave enough to stand up to the pro-Covid lunatic fringe...and is willing to accept the constraints put upon him or her by Ohio’s devolved legislature.
> 
> _Edited because I forgot to source the Dr. Duwve story from which I pulled the quote._




Aren‘t death threats illegal? If they locked up everybody that sent them, people wouldn’t be so eager to make them.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Aren‘t death threats illegal? If they locked up everybody that sent them, people wouldn’t be so eager to make them.



Death threats will regardless be much more "effective" against health officials who aren't used to / prepared for this kind of shit. 
Even Fauci was shocked when his daughters were threatened, even though he got some heat in the 80s when he was called "gaylover" while working on HIV/AIDS.


----------



## SuperMatt

The dumbest people on the planet:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1305521504365535232/


----------



## JayMysteri0

I - I - don't know what to say anymore




Video pulled.  You can see what I mean in the opening 45 seconds of this video.





"Herd mentality"?!  For Fuck sake!  "Herd mentality"?!

After how many millions of deaths?!


----------



## JayMysteri0

For F- ing F sake!



> Trump criticizes Biden in town hall for not issuing a national mask mandate — but Biden as a candidate has no authority to do so
> 
> 
> Trump also said he doesn't support the policy because he claims that "a lot of people don't want to wear masks" such as "waiters."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com





> President Donald Trump called out former Vice President Joe Biden for not implementing a national mask mandate, though as Biden has no authority to do so.
> "They said 'we're going to do a national mandate on masks,'" Trump said Tuesday evening during an ABC News town hall. "But he didn't do it, I mean, he never did it."
> Biden has previously stated his support for universal mask-wearing, while Trump has shut down consideration of the idea.
> Trump defended his stance by claiming that "a lot of people don't want to wear masks."


----------



## JayMysteri0

Okay, one more...
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1306068367833550848/

Something posted later in the thread that says it best


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> I - I - don't know what to say anymore
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video pulled.  You can see what I mean in the opening 45 seconds of this video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Herd mentality"?!  For Fuck sake!  "Herd mentality"?!
> 
> After how many millions of deaths?!



There is no herd immunity without a vaccine because the immunity is most likely transient (~4-6mo). He knows it. By the time one end of the population gains some transient immunity, the other loses it. So you sacrifice a lot of people for nothing. This on its own would deserve jail time...


----------



## JayMysteri0

Seriously!  How the fuck do I NOT get to claim "*I was in fear for my life*" as I club this woman if she got in my face ranting?
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1305923015251824649/

Granted if I was tap dancing on her throat claiming I was hoping to stamp out all possible germs, that would understandably be considered excessive.  But come the hell on, who in this world doesn't get the mask thing, and still demands interacting with the general public?


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Okay, one more...
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1306068367833550848/
> 
> Something posted later in the thread that says it best




Herd mentality at its finest. And of COURSE one of them had a MAGA hat.


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> For F- ing F sake!




How many millions will still vote for this guy though? Oh well, we don’t have a monopoly on stupidity. Look at England and Brexit.


----------



## JayMysteri0

A few words from some local experts who disagree with Dr. Fauci
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1307853801265790978/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Yup


----------



## User.45




----------



## User.45

Rand Paul getting skull fucked by Fauci (sorry for the vulgarity but Paul's malignantly ignorant)
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1308797607842545664/


----------



## Alli

PearsonX said:


> Rand Paul getting skull fucked by Fauci (sorry for the vulgarity but Paul's malignantly ignorant)




Paul is horrible. Just that - he doesn’t deserve any adjectives.


----------



## JayMysteri0

When your tweets & predictions don't age well, bringing to question one's wisdom.
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1309640500077625344/


----------



## Yoused

well, of course you were

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1289913498546266112/


----------



## Renzatic

I think all the shit I've had to put up with this year is finally starting to take a toll on me. 

I've dozed a couple of hours total over the last 36 hours, and I just can't seem to get to sleep. There's too much shit on my mind, and I when I lay down to try to sleep, I start feeling like I'm running out of time.


----------



## Eric

Renzatic said:


> I think all the shit I've had to put up with this year is finally starting to take a toll on me.
> 
> I've dozed a couple of hours total over the last 36 hours, and I just can't seem to get to sleep. There's too much shit on my mind, and I when I lay down to try to sleep, I start feeling like I'm running out of time.



Sorry to hear that, hang in there. I think we've hit rock bottom and over the next year the only way we can go is up.


----------



## Alli

Renzatic said:


> I think all the shit I've had to put up with this year is finally starting to take a toll on me.
> 
> I've dozed a couple of hours total over the last 36 hours, and I just can't seem to get to sleep. There's too much shit on my mind, and I when I lay down to try to sleep, I start feeling like I'm running out of time.




I don’t think I could cope if I weren’t already on medication. My husband is at that point as well, and will ask the family doctor for some of what I’m on for himself. The brain won’t turn off.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> I don’t think I could cope if I weren’t already on medication. My husband is at that point as well, and will ask the family doctor for some of what I’m on for himself. The brain won’t turn off.



For me, turning off the TV and jumping into one of my more calming hobbies goes a long way and is the only way I car really decompress from everything, I mean it's literally Trump TV 24/7 and I simply can't take it. I can't imagine what another 4 years of this man will do to people's mental health.


----------



## Renzatic

It's not just Trump for me. I can handle Trump. Can handle his crazy culty fanbase. But sitting in this house by myself late at night, still semi-quarantined, doing the doomscrolling thing. After awhile, it starts feeling like that shit is infecting your brains, and you don't have a release valve, so it just bounces around in there, picking up momentum.

If there's one thing this year has shown me, it's that I can't one day decide to say fuck it all, and become a hermit in the woods. I'll go crazy from the silence.


----------



## Alli

Renzatic said:


> It's not just Trump for me. I can handle Trump. Can handle his crazy culty fanbase. But sitting in this house by myself late at night, still semi-quarantined, doing the doomscrolling thing. After awhile, it starts feeling like that shit is infecting your brains, and you don't have a release valve, so it just bounces around in there, picking up momentum.
> 
> If there's one thing this year has shown me, it's that I can't one day decide to say fuck it all, and become a hermit in the woods. I'll go crazy from the silence.




I think FaceTime has helped a lot with that. My mother and I FT every day, although she is in the same apartment community as her brother and sister-in-law, so they’ve pretty much quarantined together. My son, who lives alone in Brooklyn, never wanted to FaceTime in the past, but now he gets put out if we leave him out of a chat. He spends most of his free time playing pub-g with an old college friend. And the chats with my daughter, who also lives alone, have become far more frequent.

Do you have any outlet for socialization?


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1310235763217498112/


----------



## Yoused

It is kind of baffling how easy it is to surprise some folks,

* A study at Cornell University said a thorough review of almost 40 million English-language news reports worldwide identified (Individual-ONE) as the single-largest driver of misinformation about the pandemic. … "That's concerning in that there are real-world dire health implications," Cornell Alliance for Science director Sarah Evanega, the study's lead author, told the Times.*​


----------



## JayMysteri0

Two scary back to back tweets on my Twitter timeline

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1312307530618548224/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1312064332306542592/


----------



## JayMysteri0

FFS

To think many of us once mocked the unabomber for his lifestyle.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1313161771805544448/

Now it's starting to look like the wisest choice.


----------



## JayMysteri0

As a companion tweet, to absolutely demoralize you...
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1313232178151596038/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Alright people, it seems we can finally relax.  Evidently Texas has found a solution for this covid thing, so we can get back to normal
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1314972839901097985/

Whew!

If we haven't, then I guess "everything is bigger in Texas", including super spreader events.


----------



## Eric

Any adviser who didn't tell Trump what a bad idea it was to bring in minorities to a rally with zero social distancing (even with masks they were packed in like sardines) while he's infected and cases are skyrocketing again should be fired and flogged. There's no way the optics of this thing looks good for him.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1314951552499683329/


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1315522805149040641/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Two NOT good signs in a day
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1315883229883367426/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1315835985956155397/


----------



## Arkitect

JayMysteri0 said:


> Two NOT good signs in a day
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1315835985956155397/



Personally I am happy to stand back and let others get in the Covid vaccine queue ahead of me… I am no anti-vaxer. I believe in the science… but this is just, oh I don't know, a little uncomfortable for me.


----------



## User.45

Arkitect said:


> Personally I am happy to stand back and let others get in the Covid vaccine queue ahead of me… I am no anti-vaxer. I believe in the science… but this is just, oh I don't know, a little uncomfortable for me.



Adverse events happen, and these are normal procedures during clinical trials, it's just the general public don't follow clinical trials real time.


----------



## Arkitect

PearsonX said:


> Adverse events happen, and these are normal procedures during clinical trials, it's just the general public don't follow clinical trials real time.



Oh of course.
I'm just thinking there is a rush and in the race to be first, well who knows what corners are, if not cut, at least smoothed over.

*shrug* Anyway, I am no conspiracy theorist, just happy to stand back and let those who think they are in desperate need of a vaccine to get one.


----------



## Eric

PearsonX said:


> Adverse events happen, and these are normal procedures during clinical trials, it's just the general public don't follow clinical trials real time.



And just another example of why we need to let the trials go through their course instead of trying to rush it through. Fleshing these things out is what gives the vaccine it's credibility.


----------



## User.45

Arkitect said:


> Oh of course.
> I'm just thinking there is a rush and in the race to be first, well who knows what corners are, if not cut, at least smoothed over.
> 
> *shrug* Anyway, I am no conspiracy theorist, just happy to stand back and let those who think they are in desperate need of a vaccine to get one.





ericgtr12 said:


> And just another example of why we need to let the trials go through their course instead of trying to rush it through. Fleshing these things out is what gives the vaccine it's credibility.



I agree that the political pressure in the present climate is something researchers had never had to deal with before, and therefore I'm not certain how equipped they are to balance it out. It's hard not to cave in or not to overcompensate. 

Hopefully Trump is ousted in 3 weeks and the unreasonable pressure is removed from researchers.


----------



## SuperMatt

How you vote matters. Look at this chart for how this deadly pandemic affects states based on their politics.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1315793901551198210/


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> How you vote matters. Look at this chart for how this deadly pandemic affects states based on their politics.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1315793901551198210/



Wow, that is a stark look at the difference between Republicans and Democrats. I think it's just that Republicans don't give a fuck about who they infect, to them their way of life and the economy outweigh the lives of those they're putting at risk. However, in the end all they have to do is wear a mask and socially distance themselves but even THAT is too much for them.


----------



## JayMysteri0

You will be warned
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1316106609765093381/


----------



## Arkitect

And meanwhile here in Brexitland…



> *Students in Birmingham were given used coronavirus tests by mistake*, with the council launching a review of the incident amid concern from those who received contaminated swabs.
> 
> The council coronavirus swab tests were accidentally handed out in Birmingham in Selly Oak as part of city council’s drop off and collect service. University of Birmingham students who then received the kits opened the boxes and found sealed bags inside.
> …
> The council said:
> We are aware that a small number of tests were mistakenly given out during Drop and Collect activity in Selly Oak yesterday (13th Oct).
> 
> The circumstances around this incident are being fully reviewed and any required changes to the process will be implemented.




Oh good grief! Handing out used tests?

Students really are having a bad time of this with universities charging quarantined students £18 a day for baked beans and instant noodles (£4 max).


----------



## JayMysteri0

> pan·der
> /ˈpandər/
> _verb_
> 
> 
> gratify or indulge (an immoral or distasteful desire, need, or habit or a person with such a desire, etc.).



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1317180216658329600/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1317200785940283394/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1317199569478950914/


----------



## JayMysteri0

> A Coronavirus Cautionary Tale About a Superspreader Spin Class
> 
> 
> A SpinCo spin studio in Hamilton, Ontario has become the site of an outbreak of coronavirus that has reportedly spread rapidly through the community after two patrons and one staff member tested positive. Though the outbreak started with just three cases of covid-19 last Monday, it has now grown...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jezebel.com





> A SpinCo spin studio in Hamilton, Ontario has become the site of an outbreak of coronavirus that has reportedly spread rapidly through the community after two patrons and one staff member tested positive. Though the outbreak started with just three cases of covid-19 last Monday, it has now grown to over 72 cases that are associated with that single spin studio—and between the people who visited the gym and their friends, family, and coworkers, it’s possible that as many as 2,500 people could have potentially been exposed.


----------



## Alli

And Canada has been doing so well!


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


>



I thought people did this at home on their "Peloton" machines. Maybe I've just seen too many ads for it....


----------



## JayMysteri0

They must think this is an example of that 'American Exceptionalism" they hear certain supporters of some guy like to crow about...
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1317297456380477441/


----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## JayMysteri0

FFS 

When you stake your position as 'science NOT being your thing'.



> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/10/22/alabama-ainsworth-covid-masks-ltgovernor/





> When Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey (R) ordered a statewide mask mandate in July as coronavirus deaths surged to record levels, her second-in-command blasted the move.
> 
> “Wearing a face mask and maintaining social distancing are among the best ways to slow the spread of COVID-19,” tweeted Lt. Gov. Will Ainsworth (R) at the time. “However, it’s an overstep that infringes upon the property rights of business owners and the ability of individuals to make their own health decisions.”
> 
> Now, as Alabama once again sees an alarming rise in covid-19, Ainsworth, 39, announced Wednesday that he is among the newly confirmed cases.
> 
> “After being notified this afternoon that a member of my Sunday school church group had acquired the coronavirus, I was tested out of an abundance of caution and received notice that the results proved positive,” Ainsworth said in a statement.




Really?! 

I like how "tested out of an abundance of caution" is becoming the new "I think I   d up" amongst mask deniers.


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> FFS
> 
> When you stake your position as 'science NOT being your thing'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?!
> 
> I like how "tested out of an abundance of caution" is becoming the new "I think I   d up" amongst mask deniers.



The time for an abundance of caution was quite a while ago. When *their own life* is in danger, suddenly caution is warranted.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> FFS
> 
> When you stake your position as 'science NOT being your thing'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?!
> 
> I like how "tested out of an abundance of caution" is becoming the new "I think I   d up" amongst mask deniers.



Do you guys remember when Trump called himself a wartime president? Is this how these people go to war?!


----------



## Thomas Veil

It begins. Here in Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine has been saying he’s not worried about 12,000 fans gathering at live football games, he’s worried about small groups gathering to watch them on TV.

He’s right to worry. Here are three coronavirus advisory maps depicting the last few weeks.

​
Cuyahoga County, where Cleveland is, is on the verge of being the first to go to purple, the worst stage. 

Two towns I know of have already returned to full remote learning.


----------



## Alli

JayMysteri0 said:


> FFS
> 
> When you stake your position as 'science NOT being your thing'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?!
> 
> I like how "tested out of an abundance of caution" is becoming the new "I think I   d up" amongst mask deniers.



Idiot is so hyped to run for governor, that he’d go against Ivey if she cured Covid at this point. She, on the other hand, has surprised the entire state by continuing to enforce the mask mandate. First thing she’s ever done that I approve of, and it’s so big it makes up for a lot of other things.


----------



## lizkat

The R governors are still taking their cue from Trump's dismissal and minimization, e.g. how he tried to brush it off last night in the 2nd debate w/ Biden.    Meanwhile the current spike of covid-19 is ongoing and today's new USA cases  --77,640--  are the highest for a single day since around the end of July.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1319603494668636160/


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> The R governors are still taking their cue from Trump's dismissal and minimization, e.g. how he tried to brush it off last night in the 2nd debate w/ Biden.    Meanwhile the current spike of covid-19 is ongoing and today's new USA cases  --77,640--  are the highest for a single day since around the end of July.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1319603494668636160/



I think COVID is a perfect pro-life topic for single issue voters. If they were really pro-life...


----------



## SuperMatt

Paul Krugman explains to libertarians why their idea of ”freedom” is all wrong when it comes to the pandemic.









						Opinion | When Libertarianism Goes Bad (Published 2020)
					

Liberty doesn’t mean freedom to infect other people.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1320065739340955648/


----------



## Thomas Veil

What an amazing COVID survival story! And what great care given to her and her baby by the doctors and nurses involved.


----------



## JayMysteri0

NOTHING is free
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1321675374678417408/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Seriously.  I read this after listening to another snowflake whining about masks and them bitching about why the virus hasn't passed, and I want to upper cut dick punch them with brass knuckles.
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1327836536424042498/
This is where we are at now.


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Seriously.  I read this after listening to another snowflake whining about masks and them bitching about why the virus hasn't passed, and I want to upper cut dick punch them with brass knuckles.
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1327836536424042498/
> This is where we are at now.



And the moron judges in Texas ruled El Paso cannot enforce mask mandates. America is f-ed. We are run by idiots.


----------



## Eric

My the wife of my wife's ex-husband just died from COVID up in Oregon. She was in law enforcement in a rural area and had rheumatoid arthritis and was in her 50s.


----------



## Yoused

An ER nurse in South Dakota:

"*I can’t help but think of the Covid patients the last few days. The ones that stick out are those who still don’t believe the virus is real. The ones who scream at you for a magic medicine and that Joe Biden is going to ruin the USA. All while gasping for breath on 100% Vapotherm. They tell you there must be another reason they are sick.

These people really think this isn’t going to happen to them. And then they stop yelling at you when they get intubated. It’s like a f___ing horror movie that never ends. There’s no credits that roll. You just go back and do it all over again.*"​


----------



## Thomas Veil

For health care workers it must be almost like a zombie picture come to life. They just keep on coming, and you pray you’re not the next one to get infected.

This denial is a sickness. And it’s scary that it’s so widespread. It’s almost as if someone put hallucinogens in the water.


----------



## Edd

In NH we have Chris Sununu (R) for governor. He just won re-election easily. I voted against him although I have pretty much zero problems with his COVID approach and he got a lot of Dem support for that.

Still, it’s getting worse up here. Vermont just started a pretty aggressive shutdown and all out of state visitors are required to quarantine for 2 weeks. Maine is requiring the same unless you’re from New Hampshire or Vermont.

As an avid skier, I’ve got some strong concerns about how the ski industry will fare this year. Vermont’s restrictions have tremendous implications for tourism this winter. I ski all 3 states every year. I have a Vail pass that covers multiple VT ski areas that I may not end up using this year. Luckily Vail owns several NH ski areas that I’ll be sticking to.

Please baby Jesus, make it snow.


----------



## JayMysteri0

I have to sadly admit I conceded over in the other land, in discussion covid with a certain herd.

You can only say the same things with proof to back you up, while they deny with things they read on FB, for so long before you realize... "Why?"

For those times I realize it's only when it finally hits them personally and 250K isn't some absurdly abstract number of fellow Americans killed, will they take it seriously.  Suddenly it will be sob story time & they will demand thoughts & prayers of us, and anyone pointing out their past behavior may have to led to things you'd be the uncaring selfish asshole.

Until this country can dig itself out of the tribalism mire it's stepped in, we are   d.   I've posted it before, and I still swear by it...


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1328556609841270785/


----------



## lizkat

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1328556609841270785/




We may indeed be living in the dumbest of times.









						Senators clash over masks on Senate floor
					

“I don’t need your instruction,” Sen. Dan Sullivan said to Sen. Sherrod Brown.




					www.politico.com
				






> As he took the floor to rail against Federal Reserve nominee Judith Shelton, Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio) first took aim at Sen. Dan Sullivan (R-Alaska), who was presiding over the Senate. Before he began his remarks on Shelton, Brown said: “I start by asking the presiding officer to wear a mask.”






> “I don’t wear a mask when I’m speaking,” Sullivan retorted, a rare response from the senator presiding over the Senate. “I don’t need your instruction.”
> 
> Brown said the moment was emblematic of a Senate where “there isn’t much interest … in public health.”


----------



## Alli

And if you really have a problem with Covid restrictions, just follow Dr. Scott Atlas and lead an insurrection. My gods, the man is a douche.


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1328556609841270785/



Local law enforcement choosing what laws they will and will not enforce. They are the same way about guns in mostly rural areas.

Must be nice, like going to work for Little Cesars but refusing to make pizzas.


----------



## JayMysteri0

ericgtr12 said:


> Local law enforcement choosing what laws they will and will not enforce. They are the same way about guns in mostly rural areas.
> 
> Must be nice, like going to work for Little Cesars but refusing to make pizzas.



Yeaaaaaahhhhhhhhh...  

You know it's more about one choosing what they personally like, using an interpretation of the law. 

Especially since the very _herd_ I gave up on having these conversations with, WANTS to talk about THIS.






Two things:

1.  For the herd's discussion it isn't this sheriff, because the herd knows this one is about his feelings.  Instead of course, there is some sheriff somewhere that they of course cannot remember where or will bother to look for, who said they BELIEVE such a law where they are would be illegal.  This is an individual who can't grasp why I won't give a shit about their personal anecdotes.  If they can't provide a real source to their claims, why the hell would I believe any personal story that always makes them sound heroic like they've saved virgins from marauding inner city huns, and their deity was proud that day of them?

2.  Why is gifs seem to consistently work better over here, and NOT over there?


----------



## lizkat

A lot of these guys are into the spirit if not the formal membership rosters of the CSPOA (Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association).   There are not many official members, if you want to call 400 or so county sheriffs "not many"...  but there are plenty sheriffs and deputies around the USA who may personally pick and choose enforcement of state and federal rules or laws they don't care for, and some occasionally go on record publicly questioning constitutionality of those laws, including gun laws and most recently, covid-19 public health mandates by governors.

And yes, the roots of the actual "constitutional sheriffs" ideology do trace back to the Posse Comitatus with all its conspiracy-theory-laden, racist, anti-Semitic, anti-gay, militaristic baggage.









						Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Yoused

North Dakota is one of the worst states overall for infection rates. Looking at the lower map on this page one can see that they are getting hit quite hard. 7 months ago, in the plains region from Texas to Montana, there was an arc of grey counties (no reported cases) that has since become very dark red in many places. McKenzie County (on the border of MT) has an infection rate of a tad over 5% (not as bad as Williams County to the north). This is the Bakken area, where there was a big boom in oil/gas exploration.

Of course, many of these counties are very low in population, so their infection percentages go up very quickly compared to more urbanized areas.

Now, though, we have supergenius T____r C_____n telling us "_the surge in cases is proof that lockdowns were ineffective._" That might have nothing at all to do with






this guy.


----------



## JayMysteri0

I already regret my decision for continuing the conversation.

Evidently we weren't really talking about the fictional sheriff, it was about me being such a bully telling people to wear masks.

P.S.  I haven't told anyone to wear masks, I just post bits about people who lose their  because they are asked to wear a mask, or imagine liberties lost by a mask.


----------



## Thomas Veil

​Here's a little quickie graphic I put together to show the spread of Coronavirus in my state over the last ten weeks. Yellow is less infection, red is obviously more, with purple being the highest level (not reached...yet).




Yesterday the number of new infections was over 7,800. In spite of this, you have people who are hosting football watching parties and want to have big family gatherings for Thanksgiving and Christmas. You've gotta be an imbecile, quite frankly.

The governor, Mike DeWine, has just declared a curfew from 10 pm to 5 am. Every non-essential business has to shut down. And Trump is so angry he's urging his own party to primary DeWine in the next election.


----------



## Edd

Thomas Veil said:


> ​Here's a little quickie graphic I put together to show the spread of Coronavirus in my state over the last ten weeks. Yellow is less infection, red is obviously more, with purple being the highest level (not reached...yet).
> 
> View attachment 1444​
> Yesterday the number of new infections was over 7,800. In spite of this, you have people who are hosting football watching parties and want to have big family gatherings for Thanksgiving and Christmas. You've gotta be an imbecile, quite frankly.
> 
> The governor, Mike DeWine, has just declared a curfew from 10 pm to 5 am. Every non-essential business has to shut down. And Trump is so angry he's urging his own party to primary DeWine in the next election.



I doubt a curfew will do much at this point. Pretty weak.


----------



## Yoused

Edd said:


> I doubt a curfew will do much at this point. Pretty weak.



People hang out in bars till 1:30am just about every night. A curfew would reduce exposure time for any bars that might still be open.


----------



## Thomas Veil

In Ohio it’s 2:30 am. Even more exposure.

Anyway, this is (for now) a three week curfew. Given the trajectory of the disease and people’s aversion to voluntary measures, this doesn’t sound unreasonable.


----------



## SuperMatt

1.3 million active duty members of the U.S. military. Only 777 hospitalized cases of COVID. Soldiers, Marines, Airmen, Sailors all following orders: socially distancing, wearing masks, quarantining if any contact with an infected person is suspected, etc.

All it takes: following doctors’ recommendations and being disciplined about it.









						New Virus, Old Enemy (Published 2020)
					

The U.S. military’s past battles with Infectious disease have helped it fight off coronavirus.



					www.nytimes.com


----------



## User.45

Yoused said:


> People hang out in bars till 1:30am just about every night. A curfew would reduce exposure time for any bars that might still be open.



This. They drink, they touch each other, they yell, rinse&repeat.



Thomas Veil said:


> ​Here's a little quickie graphic I put together to show the spread of Coronavirus in my state over the last ten weeks. Yellow is less infection, red is obviously more, with purple being the highest level (not reached...yet).
> 
> View attachment 1444​
> Yesterday the number of new infections was over 7,800. In spite of this, you have people who are hosting football watching parties and want to have big family gatherings for Thanksgiving and Christmas. You've gotta be an imbecile, quite frankly.
> 
> The governor, Mike DeWine, has just declared a curfew from 10 pm to 5 am. Every non-essential business has to shut down. And Trump is so angry he's urging his own party to primary DeWine in the next election.



Lucky for him that he's a man with an R. Otherwise Scott Atlas would "accidentally" go for his jugular on Twitter.

Fun fact, Scott Atlas' google scholar profile disappeared overnight. Maybe, because it was obvious based on that that Fauci is 20x more cited than him and in a field that is actually related to COVID...


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> 1.3 million active duty members of the U.S. military. Only 777 hospitalized cases of COVID. Soldiers, Marines, Airmen, Sailors all following orders: socially distancing, wearing masks, quarantining if any contact with an infected person is suspected, etc.
> 
> All it takes: following doctors’ recommendations and being disciplined about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Virus, Old Enemy (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> The U.S. military’s past battles with Infectious disease have helped it fight off coronavirus.
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com




I don't disagree with that but being active duty military = they are not obese, they have good lung health and young. So number of hospitalizations isn't the best measure for this group.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1328861214168977414/


----------



## Alli

PearsonX said:


> I don't disagree with that but being active duty military = they are not obese, they have good lung health and young. So number of hospitalizations isn't the best measure for this group.



You should have seen some of the guys in my unit. LOL! Active duty often comes into being from National Guardsmen, who are not known for their stellar physiques. Even funnier, we had a guy who was a police officer - he couldn’t have waddled a mile, never mind run it!


----------



## SuperMatt

PearsonX said:


> I don't disagree with that but being active duty military = they are not obese, they have good lung health and young. So number of hospitalizations isn't the best measure for this group.



I didn’t see the actual infection numbers, but I know they have been very strict and the article shows all the measures they are taking, such as isolating training platoons so if one platoon gets it, no other platoons will. If the general population followed the same protocols, we would probably have FAR fewer infections and deaths. These are soldiers living in tight quarters and they are figuring it out.

Civilians, on the other hand:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1329071052324970496/


----------



## User.45

Alli said:


> You should have seen some of the guys in my unit. LOL! Active duty often comes into being from National Guardsmen, who are not known for their stellar physiques. Even funnier, we had a guy who was a police officer - he couldn’t have waddled a mile, never mind run it!



Army physical aptitude tests are not very tough but they are sufficient to filter people in poor health. 

I think some officers shoot people because they don't like to run...


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I didn’t see the actual infection numbers, but I know they have been very strict and the article shows all the measures they are taking, such as isolating training platoons so if one platoon gets it, no other platoons will. If the general population followed the same protocols, we would probably have FAR fewer infections and deaths. These are soldiers living in tight quarters and they are figuring it out.
> 
> Civilians, on the other hand:
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1329071052324970496/



Sadly this cartoon is a really really really good summary of the issues. These guys act like small children but expect to be treated as adults.


----------



## Eric

Had instacart deliver today and the driver knocked on the door with no mask. I get he's outside but this is a real problem for me because it's an enclosed area with no real airflow, is this overreacting?


----------



## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> Had instacart deliver today and the driver knocked on the door with no mask. I get he's outside but this is a real problem for me because it's an enclosed area with no real airflow, is this overreacting?



Legit concern.


----------



## Eric

PearsonX said:


> Legit concern.



I put a box fan at the doorway and let it blow for a while before bringing the groceries in and wiping them down. The last guy wore a mask all the way and I made sure the tip and review reflected that.


----------



## Thomas Veil

SuperMatt said:


> Civilians, on the other hand:
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1329071052324970496/



That is my new go-to cartoon to display how I feel about diehard Trumpers. I’m sorry, but they are the most entitled people on Earth. _We’re_ supposed to understand _them_, when all they’ve done the past four years is diss us? Screw that. They’re the ones who are royally messed up and while I welcome a dialogue I will not cater to their fantasies, conspiracy theories and make-the-libs-cry mentality. 

Thanks for the cartoon. I’m gonna share that one. 



ericgtr12 said:


> Had instacart deliver today and the driver knocked on the door with no mask. I get he's outside but this is a real problem for me because it's an enclosed area with no real airflow, is this overreacting?



No.


----------



## lizkat

PearsonX said:


> Army physical aptitude tests are not very tough but they are sufficient to filter people in poor health.
> 
> I think some officers shoot people because they don't like to run...




Hah, might could be.

Me, running up to cop on upper upper west side in the 60s:   Officer they took my bags they're running over towards the C train!

Officer, twirling baton:  Calm down now miss,   can you describe them?

Me:   C'mon man they're three little kids hauling a shopping bag with flowers on it and a big cream colored handbag!

Officer, twirling baton:  Hope you didn't have your housekeys in that bag, they must be almost to Central Park West by now,


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> Hah, might could be.
> 
> Me, running up to cop on upper upper west side in the 60s:   Officer they took my bags they're running over towards the C train!
> 
> Officer, twirling baton:  Calm down now miss,   can you describe them?
> 
> Me:   C'mon man they're three little kids hauling a shopping bag with flowers on it and a big cream colored handbag!
> 
> Officer, twirling baton:  Hope you didn't have your housekeys in that bag, they must be almost to Central Park West by now,



This reminded me of that one time in med school when I caught a guy with a purse while waiting for my ENT seminar to start in front of the hospital. He darted past me and another guy was chasing him down the street, I caught him in a 100 yard sprint (no weapons anticipated). I returned the bag and proceeded with this uninspiring class. It was really absurd.
Those were the days. I can still do 100 yards ≤12 sec, but my joints hurt for weeks if I do it... 

I can tell, crime is so much more chill when you deal with it in a country without weapons. And this loops us back, I feel for police in America. Tough tough job. Yet a police badge shouldn't be the equivalent of a license to kill, which it is right now.


----------



## lizkat

PearsonX said:


> I can tell, crime is so much more chill when you deal with it in a country without weapons.




This.  I'd never chase after street criminals nowadays the way I did once back in the 90s just to see for sure where they were going so I could report it. Not every wannabe purse snatcher is carrying a gun in NYC ripoffs but the odds are much higher now.

And so yes, it's much much harder to be a cop in the streets now.  Or anywhere in the USA really.  In the boondocks lots of times it's about alcohol-fueled domestic violence; the danger to responders is about guns in the house and an already volatile situation.


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> And so yes, it's much much harder to be a cop in the streets now.  Or anywhere in the USA really.  In the boondocks lots of times it's about alcohol-fueled domestic violence; the danger to responders is about guns in the house and an already volatile situation.



And this is key. We need to regulate gun ownership and traffic if we want to make it safer for both cops and civilians.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1329502501507395585/


----------



## Eric

PearsonX said:


> Legit concern.



Second delivery with no mask, this time we asked that they wear one in the notes.  It's not so bad if we can let things site out there like a package from Amazon but when it's perishables and frozen items we have to retrieve them right away. I'm going to see if there's any way I can just cancel the drivers who refuse so we don't get them again.


----------



## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> Second delivery with no mask, this time we asked that they wear one in the notes.  It's not so bad if we can let things site out there like a package from Amazon but when it's perishables and frozen items we have to retrieve them right away. I'm going to see if there's any way I can just cancel the drivers who refuse so we don't get them again.



Let me understand a little better. So you have a doorway where deliveries go. How big is that space?


----------



## Eric

PearsonX said:


> Let me understand a little better. So you have a doorway where deliveries go. How big is that space?



Not too big, maybe 10 feet but it's narrow. My concern is that I still have to breathe the same airspace and it's stagnant there unless it's a really windy day. No big deal if I can wait an hour or two but with perishables that's not possible. I get that I'm paranoid due to my condition but this seems like such an easy and basic step for them to take.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Hire this person
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1329769715145781248/


----------



## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> Not too big, maybe 10 feet but it's narrow. My concern is that I still have to breathe the same airspace and it's stagnant there unless it's a really windy day. No big deal if I can wait an hour or two but with perishables that's not possible. I get that I'm paranoid due to my condition but this seems like such an easy and basic step for them to take.



Yeah, this is where the airborne/aerosolic spread of SARS-CoV-2 becomes a legit issue. can they drop the groceries curbside?


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Hire this person
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1329769715145781248/



It would also pay off as those who got the vaccine will be desirable for employment and will return to work.


----------



## Eric

PearsonX said:


> Yeah, this is where the airborne/aerosolic spread of SARS-CoV-2 becomes a legit issue. can they drop the groceries curbside?



That's actually a good idea, I hadn't thought of that.


----------



## lizkat

ericgtr12 said:


> Not too big, maybe 10 feet but it's narrow. My concern is that I still have to breathe the same airspace and it's stagnant there unless it's a really windy day. No big deal if I can wait an hour or two but with perishables that's not possible. I get that I'm paranoid due to my condition but this seems like such an easy and basic step for them to take.




Not only that but Instacart even sends me notifications of impending deliveries and in a separate notification at that time also reminds that both customers and shopper/drivers are asked to wear masks at point of delivery.   I always just say please leave on back porch but the shoppers have all been arriving wearing masks as they approach my place from the car.


----------



## Eric

lizkat said:


> Not only that but Instacart even sends me notifications of impending deliveries and in a separate notification at that time also reminds that both customers and shopper/drivers are asked to wear masks at point of delivery.   I always just say please leave on back porch but the shoppers have all been arriving wearing masks as they approach my place from the car.



I decided to post this question up on Reddit in the Instacart sub and got some really good feedback, most are of the opinion that you just down rate them. It sounds like many pride themselves on wearing the mask upon delivery and they would prefer to get the business over those who refuse to do it, especially when it's added to the instructions. So that's what I did, 2 stars on the last one.


----------



## Yoused




----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## User.45

> ROCHESTER, Minn. — In wake of the news that President Donald Trump will hold a campaign rally at the Rochester International Airport on Friday, both Mayo Clinic and Rochester Mayor Kim Norton have voiced their support for state health guidelines, including those limiting crowds to 250 persons.
> 
> “Mayo Clinic supports the state of Minnesota’s COVID-19 guidelines, which were put in place to help limit the spread of COVID-19 and protect the public’s health,” the clinic said in a statement.
> 
> The mayor adds that she has communicated these expectations with airport executive director John Reed, having developed them through communications with the city administrator, police chief and city attorney. Norton said she had been in discussions with the Minnesota Department of Health and the state Attorney General’s Office about the question Wednesday afternoon.












						Mayo Clinic, Rochester warn about risks of coronavirus infection at planned Trump rally
					

ROCHESTER, Minn. — In wake of the news that President Donald Trump will hold a campaign rally at the Rochester International Airport on Friday, both Mayo Clinic and Rochester Mayor Kim Norton have …




					www.twincities.com
				






> MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO/AP) — President Donald Trump spoke Friday at the Rochester International Airport, to a crowd of about 250 supporters, but hundreds of others who couldn’t get inside were showing their support outside.
> 
> Trump spoke briefly to the hundreds who gathered outside the venue, Rochester International Airport, before giving quick remarks on the tarmac to supporters who were allowed onsite.... He did, however, lash out at the state’s Democratic Gov. Tim Walz and its attorney general.
> 
> “Your far left Democrat Attorney General Keith Ellison and your Democrat governor tried to shut down our rally, silence the people of Minnesota, and take away your freedom and your rights,” Trump said.















						Trump Rallies In Rochester, With Spillover From 250 Capacity Showing Support Outside
					

"Just because he's a goomba and a rich guy doesn't mean that he doesn't have the heart and soul of an American," Tom Blondelle said.




					minnesota.cbslocal.com
				






> Hundreds of health care workers at the Mayo Clinic have become infected with the coronavirus, even as the prestigious hospital system is treating rapidly growing numbers of patients with Covid-19.
> 
> Staffing has emerged as a critical issue, Dr. Williams said. “We are most concerned about not being able to care for patients because of the decrease in our staff due to Covid-19 reasons, whether it is they are exposed and they’re out on quarantine, they’re taking care of a family member who has Covid-19 or they have been infected themselves,” she said.
> 
> Most of the infections among the Mayo Clinic staff have occurred from community spread, Dr. Williams said, while a few have been traced to exposure from other employees when eating together unmasked. “We’re really not seeing exposures from patient to staff,” she said.












						The Mayo Clinic is strained by hundreds of virus infections among its medical staff.
					






					www.nytimes.com
				




A trumpian farewell gift I guess


----------



## thekev

Yoused said:


> View attachment 1511




Zombies!


----------



## JayMysteri0

We are determined to be our worst enemy
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1331018094534389760/


----------



## Yoused

*White House coronavirus task force calls for 'significant behavior change of all Americans'*​
how timely

*"In states with aggressive mitigation, we are beginning to see the impact of that mitigation despite the cooling weather. We are also seeing stabilization in many European countries that implemented strong public and private mitigation, but preserved schooling. However, in many areas of the country, mitigation efforts are inadequate or too recently implemented to see a significant impact," the reports said.

Those mitigation strategies, the task force said, will require "significant behavior change of all Americans," including the wearing of masks.*​
The whole thing reads like a this-is-what-we-should-have-been-saying-in-early-March statement.


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> We are determined to be our worst enemy
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1331018094534389760/



Exactly, all avoidable but we just can't help ourselves.


----------



## JayMysteri0

This is scary
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1333820317769347072/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1333830896588365825/



> 1 In Every 800 North Dakota Residents Now Dead From Covid
> 
> 
> Just two weeks ago, the number was one in every 1,000 residents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> This is scary
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1333820317769347072/
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1333830896588365825/



Sad when in most cases it can be avoided with a little bit of discipline. Rural areas are getting hammered right now.


----------



## Yoused

When the guy i the WH is a toddler, asking the average American to ignore his antics and try not to behave like children may be an unwinnable battle.

(And, "adult" is not a verb.)


----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## Alli

ericgtr12 said:


> Sad when in most cases it can be avoided with a little bit of discipline. Rural areas are getting hammered right now.



And they brought it on themselves by repeatedly insisting they weren’t the cities.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Well, this escalated...
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1334887072159641603/


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Well, this escalated...
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1334887072159641603/



I've never seen someone blush like old yella at 0:48. Is this real at all?


----------



## Eric

PearsonX said:


> I've never seen someone blush like old yella at 0:48. Is this real at all?
> 
> View attachment 1665View attachment 1664



People that angry aren't helping to make their case, no matter what side one is on here he looks like a crazed lunatic and the only ones who will take him seriously are already anti-maskers.


----------



## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> People that angry aren't helping to make their case, no matter what side one is on here he looks like a crazed lunatic and the only ones who will take him seriously are already anti-maskers.



COVID-19 virus remarks[edit]​On March 5, 2020, Santelli made headlines for stating, after a series of stock declines driven by fears of a COVID-19 virus pandemic, that "maybe we’d be just better off if we gave [the virus] to everybody, and then in a month it would be over because the mortality rate of [COVID-19] probably isn’t going to be any different if we did it that way than [in] the long-term picture, but the difference is we’re wreaking havoc on global and domestic economies."[19] [20]


He's not really a smart one anyway.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Wait, WTF?!!

Scratching my head...
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1335031696522178560/

Sooo, held church services in defiance of state orders, made out of public safety, suffers from it & dies, and the church raises money from it?  Specifically stimulus checks?   



> https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article247580730.html





> “Bob got every symptom. He just started to get more and more symptoms,” she said, according to the station. “Within three hours they were running me back to the back and they were putting Bob on a ventilator.”
> 
> The megachurch opened for indoor services last month, according to a Facebook post.
> 
> San Bernardino County, where the church is located, allows churches to open only for outdoor services. The county is designated in the “purple” tier, meaning many non-essential indoor businesses are closed and there are more than seven daily new cases per 100,000 people.



Was anything learned here?


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wait, WTF?!!
> 
> Scratching my head...
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1335031696522178560/
> 
> Sooo, held church services in defiance of state orders, made out of public safety, suffers from it & dies, and the church raises money from it?  Specifically stimulus checks?
> 
> 
> 
> Was anything learned here?










"Questionable voting discrepancies" per the description. Sometimes I have a hard time telling whether this was meant to be serious or it's some high quality parody. Regardless. I'm rolling on the floor. 













						Doctor who refused to wear mask has medical license suspended
					

Dr. Steven LaTulippe said at a pro-Trump rally that neither he nor his staff wears masks in their clinic. The state has suspended his medical license indefinitely.




					www.king5.com


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wait, WTF?!!
> 
> Scratching my head...
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1335031696522178560/
> 
> Sooo, held church services in defiance of state orders, made out of public safety, suffers from it & dies, and the church raises money from it?  Specifically stimulus checks?
> 
> 
> 
> Was anything learned here?



Don’t go to church?


----------



## JayMysteri0

SuperMatt said:


> Don’t go to church?



I never went to one that nutty.

Raise money on the death the of guy who should NOT have had services in the first place that ends up killing him?

Then ask for specific money intended to keep people afloat.  I haven't seen that since the characters in the New Testament that Jesus scolded.


----------



## Yoused

JayMysteri0 said:


> Then ask for specific money intended to keep people afloat. I haven't seen that since …



Here ya go (note the subtle sarcasm in this one)


----------



## Alli

PearsonX said:


> Doctor who refused to wear mask has medical license suspended
> 
> 
> Dr. Steven LaTulippe said at a pro-Trump rally that neither he nor his staff wears masks in their clinic. The state has suspended his medical license indefinitely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.king5.com



Now this I approve of!


----------



## JayMysteri0

Oh, the feelings bout to bubble up...



> Hear That, Maskholes? President-Elect Joe Biden Will Ask Americans to Wear Masks for 100 Days
> 
> 
> Look, the current president of white supremacy has grand royally fucked up this whole coronavirus thing, so when President-elect Joe Biden takes office, he wants all Americans—including those maskholes who would rather die than wear a paper mask over their racist faces—to wear masks for 100 days...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theroot.com





> Look, the current president of white supremacy has grand royally fucked up this whole coronavirus thing, so when President-elect Joe Biden takes office, he wants all Americans—including those maskholes who would rather die than wear a paper mask over their racist faces—to wear masks for 100 days so that America can try and get this train back on track.
> 
> During an interview Thursday with CNN, Biden noted that he would issue a “standing order” to require face coverings (beards don’t count) whenever entering a federal building and interstate transportation.
> 
> Oh, and if you missed Dr. Anthony Fauci, don’t worry, he will be back as Biden has asked him to continue to be the government’s top infectious disease expert. Only this time, the president will actually listen to him.



For some, THIS will be the first crisis & sign of 'Imperial Joe'.

"RELEASE THE TEARS!!!"

*  _Oh the 'sanitized' version of this I had to post at SOME other place._


----------



## Huntn

lizkat said:


> That theory of reaching herd immunity while protecting the more vulnerable from fatal infection might be worth something in the USA if it were more evident that slightly less than half the country doesn't feel it their duty to ignore masking and social distancing entirely on  partisan grounds...  i.e.,  that only Democrats believe it's necessary or even that only Democrats think covid-19 is not just a hoax and "lots of people get the flu even in summer".
> 
> In other words the trick here would be in getting a lot of around half the country to sign up for the idea that protecting the vulnerable is even an option, never mind patriotic.
> 
> Not sure how we got so lost but *Trump has had a lot to do with it *in my biased opinion.



Trump is like a group infection of salmonella of the brain, that seems to infect, dare I say it, a certain class of people.  Then we can spend some time dissecting this kind of flawed thinking, where (maybe) otherwise normal citizens, break bad, decide that the Federal Govt is untrustworthy, and mostly illustrate that when you tell humans beings what they want to hear, if you appeal to their wedge issues, their prejudices, especially from an accomplished bullshitter, con artist, the toilet and sewer is the limit, as the sheep line up to be sheared.

Most alarming is how willing his flock  is to break from science, common sense, and actions which are good for the heard. I want to say inflated corrupted religion and plain ole historic racism is in the middle of this. I understand financial desperation, but they actually think that if we pretend COVID is no big deal, everything, including their job status will return to normal which is just not the case until the vaccine arrives.


----------



## JayMysteri0

WTF?!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1336065787900145665/

Who she is



> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experience
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> experience.arcgis.com





> Fired Florida Data Scientist Launches A Coronavirus Dashboard Of Her Own
> 
> 
> Rebekah Jones says she was fired after refusing to manipulate COVID-19 data. Her new portal is a reflection of how contentious coronavirus data has become amid battles over the states' reopening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> WTF?!
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1336065787900145665/
> 
> Who she is



Desantis is a mini-me of Trump, or at least wants to be. Barge into a scientist’s house with guns because you want to cover up your own failures? Massive abuse of power. Biden FBI should investigate and heads should roll.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Ummmm...



> Trump administration refused offer to buy millions more Pfizer vaccine doses
> 
> 
> Decision could delay the delivery of a second batch until the manufacturer meets its orders for other countries
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com





> The Trump administration passed up a chance last summer to buy millions of additional doses of Pfizer’s coronavirus vaccine, a decision that could delay the delivery of a second batch of doses until the manufacturer fulfills other international contracts.
> 
> The revelation, first reported by the New York Times and confirmed to the Associated Press on Monday, came a day before Donald Trump aimed to take credit for the speedy development of forthcoming vaccines at a White House summit.
> 
> Pfizer’s vaccine, one of the leading Covid-19 vaccine contenders, is expected to be approved by a panel of Food and Drug Administration scientists as soon as this week, with delivery of 100m doses – enough for 50 million Americans – expected in coming months.
> 
> Under its contract with Pfizer, the Trump administration committed to buy an initial 100m doses, with an option to purchase as many as five times more. This summer, the White House opted not to lock in an additional 100m doses for delivery in the second quarter of 2021, according to people who spoke to the Associated Press on condition of anonymity.



Wasn't this the guy who wanted a vaccine delivered in time for election day?  Was he just counting on the bare minimum to show up, and forget the rest once the election was over?


----------



## Alli

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wasn't this the guy who wanted a vaccine delivered in time for election day? Was he just counting on the bare minimum to show up, and forget the rest once the election was over?



Probably.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Republicans are really falling apart over this...

*WARNING*

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1336427393272176647/



> U.S. Rep. Louie Gohmert of Texas' tooth fell out on camera during a news conference
> 
> 
> As one of Congress' most vocal science deniers, U.S. Rep. Louie Gohmert of Texas has earned quite a rep as a teabilly train wreck. His...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sacurrent.com





> As one of Congress' most vocal science deniers, U.S. Rep. Louie Gohmert of Texas has earned quite a rep as a teabilly train wreck. His latest news conference should only add to that brazen backwoods mystique.
> 
> With cameras rolling, one of the Tyler Republican's front teeth fell out as he spoke to the press. Rather than pause to spit the runaway tooth into a hankie, video shows Gohmert carrying on with the presser while rolling the sucker around in his mouth like a Jolly Rancher.
> 
> Gohmert, you may remember, was the Tea Partier who made it a point of pride not to wear a mask during the pandemic and subsequently tested positive for COVID-19 this summer.
> 
> While medical experts have said that COVID-19 may hasten tooth loss for people with dental problems, it's too early to know exactly what ailed the congressman's runaway chopper.
> 
> Whatever the case, his ability to bloviate without missing a beat is testimony to the rugged East Texas individualism we've all come to expect from the congressman.


----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## SuperMatt

Trump had an award he wanted to hand out before his term ended. Today he got the chance:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1336090887462522881/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Portland back in the news.

They don't play around!    

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1336466692684341249/


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1337205450341838850/


----------



## Clix Pix

Notice that in this photo his mask is not covering his nostrils and nose....


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1337216280860868608/


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1337420178808770561/


----------



## Alli

Anyone notice that Trump and Giuliani were treated to a concoction that cured them in 3 days? It requires presidential approval. (What, huh?!) Do you suppose that’s what Trump is now holding over the heads of all his loyal Trumpthuglicans (in addition to the promise of pardons)?


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> Anyone notice that Trump and Giuliani were treated to a concoction that cured them in 3 days? It requires presidential approval. (What, huh?!) Do you suppose that’s what Trump is now holding over the heads of all his loyal Trumpthuglicans (in addition to the promise of pardons)?



Giuliani was bragging about being a celebrity and getting special treatment.


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> Anyone notice that Trump and Giuliani were treated to a concoction that cured them in 3 days? It requires presidential approval. (What, huh?!) Do you suppose that’s what Trump is now holding over the heads of all his loyal Trumpthuglicans (in addition to the promise of pardons)?




Biden's pick for head of CDC, Rochelle Walensky,  had objected last spring on ethical grounds to how remdesivir was being allocated, e.g. at her hospital they got 1,000 doses but some places in Massachusetts had zero. 

Paywalled but more details:  https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/05...sachusetts-government-hospitals-team-up-share

She made inquiries around the state, found more puzzlement about the distribution, and then helped organize a cooperative in the state to redistribute more equitably, after discovering the original allocations were inexplicable even to the hospitals who got some (or, got a lot without expecting so much, etc).    Unsurprisingly,  questions to Trump's FEMA and HHS went without response, including queries about whether it was even OK to redistribute it.  

The Trump admin seems to have driven away so much competence and made it hard for professionals in the agencies to provide good info on a timely basis without having it land in "repackage land"  in the Trump-guided PR unit for massaging into something that won't displease Trump or reveal things this admin would rather leave in the dark, stuff at the juncture of private and public sector in particular.


----------



## Eric

Just got this alert on my phone.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1337502004747378689/


----------



## Thomas Veil

ericgtr12 said:


> Just got this alert on my phone.
> 
> View attachment 1825



Sounds about right.


----------



## Thomas Veil

In the midst of all this suffering and constantly depressing news, there are one or two silver linings.









						'Fauci Effect' Drives Record Number Of Medical School Applications
					

The pandemic put a spotlight on health care workers and inspired many to pursue a career in medicine. The record number of applicants comes as the U.S. faces a projected shortage of physicians.




					www.npr.org
				






> Stanford University School of Medicine reports a 50% jump in the number of applications, or 11,000 applications for 90 seats. Boston University School of Medicine says applications are up 27%, to 12,024 for about 110 seats.






> "That, I think, may have a lot to do with the fact that people look at Anthony Fauci, look at the doctors in their community and say, 'You know, that is amazing. This is a way for me to make a difference,'" said Kristen Goodell, associate dean of admissions at the school of medicine at BU.






> Medical school admissions officers have started calling this the Fauci Effect.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Wait.  Why IS this a thing?



> UPDATE: Walt Disney World No Longer Placing Digital Face Masks Over Maskless Guests in On-Ride Photos; Official Statement Issued - WDW News Today
> 
> 
> A daily-updated resource for news and information on the Disney resort around the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wdwnt.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1338521154332602368/
She literally admits she knows she is fucking up, when she's proud about NOT wearing a mask, but NOT admitting what hospital she works at!


----------



## JayMysteri0

Wait!  WTF?!



> Even a White House Staffer Is Relying on GoFundMe For Medical Bills, After Covid-19 Related Amputation
> 
> 
> President Trump has spent the entirety of the covid-19 pandemic flaunting safety protocols and questioning the importance of masks, knowing full well that his access to exceptional healthcare is all but guaranteed. But those just outside his exclusive circle haven’t been so lucky. Now, after...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theslot.jezebel.com





> The GoFundMe is steadily creeping up to its $50,000 goal, and will likely be successful as it makes the rounds in the media. Those behind the GoFundMe are dubious as to why Bailey, a public servant, is receiving so much attention when hundreds of thousands of others have stories to tell. The answer is simple: In one of the richest, most powerful nations in the world, a man whose job revolved around keeping the President of the United States safe, cannot afford to pay for medical bills and treatment following complications from a deadly virus that the President of the United States brushed off. It’s a nasty irony as much as it is a cruel reminder that this nation’s dysfunctional health care system often fails the very people it is meant to protect.


----------



## Alli

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wait!  WTF?!



Not to mention, said staffer probably got the virus *from* the president.


----------



## thekev

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1338521154332602368/
> She literally admits she knows she is fucking up, when she's proud about NOT wearing a mask, but NOT admitting what hospital she works at!




I wouldn't make much of it. I have received provably false statements from medical professionals before (completely contradicted the past decade of literature on the topic, in addition to the simple to locate stuff like mayoclinic). There's a distribution to them, just like any other field. 

Note that some of the stated benefits extend beyond blocking the virus directly. One of the first reasons given was to avoid any kind of indirect contact between people's faces and basically anything else. Apart from that, early experiments did show large droplets were greatly reduced by the presence of a mask. That was the thing that initially drove the conversation surrounding masks.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1339282902090207236/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Truth
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1339936152640495618/


----------



## User.45

Alli said:


> Anyone notice that Trump and Giuliani were treated to a concoction that cured them in 3 days? It requires presidential approval. (What, huh?!) Do you suppose that’s what Trump is now holding over the heads of all his loyal Trumpthuglicans (in addition to the promise of pardons)?



They aren't cured in 3 days, they just get care that is unattainable on a large scale. They get IV hydration, neutralizing antibodies aka Regeneron (evidence for their efficacy is lacking, ~$6500), then probably remdesivir (evidence for efficacy is lacking, $3200), and dexamethasone (plenty of evidence of efficacy, dirt cheap). Many respond to dexamethasone like they are handed a can of Monster twice a day. They get earlier care, closer monitoring, and more aggressive treatment than a regular person.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1339282902090207236/



Absolutely savage!


----------



## SuperMatt

We’ve got a vaccine, but this corrupt and incompetent administration can’t even distribute it properly. 70+ million morons thought 4 more years of this would be a good thing?!?!?!?!?









						States were left scrambling after finding out they'd get 20-40% less vaccine than they expected. Here's why.
					

After some confusion, the source of the problem was clarified Friday night: States were given estimates based on vaccine doses produced, not those that had been OK'd.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> We’ve got a vaccine, but this corrupt and incompetent administration can’t even distribute it properly. 70+ million morons thought 4 more years of this would be a good thing?!?!?!?!?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> States were left scrambling after finding out they'd get 20-40% less vaccine than they expected. Here's why.
> 
> 
> After some confusion, the source of the problem was clarified Friday night: States were given estimates based on vaccine doses produced, not those that had been OK'd.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com



But we knew this, right? To repeat myself, I knew Trump has not been involved in the planning of the vaccination campaign when he threw in a daily vaccination number that would require 4 years for us to reach herd immunity.


----------



## JayMysteri0

When you freak out
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1338674046616162305/


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> When you freak out
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1338674046616162305/



And that's the reason I definitely don't use the title Dr. on my plane ticket. : /
I have a 2 minute wait policy and so far it worked perfectly. 
There's always another physician on board and I can just continue working in peace.


----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1340321421608824833/


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1340781560774221828/

And unsurprisingly
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1340683851715239937/


----------



## JayMysteri0

I AM SHOCKED.  

Shocked I tell you, ...that it looks this long for a Covid Karen titling

The Associated Press reports:



> Mack, who is enrolled as a pre-med student at Mercer University in Macon, Georgia, arrived in the Cayman Islands on Nov. 27 and was supposed to undergo a two-week quarantine as mandated by the government, which electronically tracks anyone who arrives in the British Caribbean territory. However, she broke quarantine on Nov. 29 when her boyfriend picked her up to attend a water sports event, Hughes said.
> After their arrest, a judge ruled the couple had to provide 40 hours of community service and pay a $4,400 fine. In addition, Ramgeet was ordered to a two-month curfew that would start at 7 p.m. But the prosecution appealed, arguing the punishment was unduly lenient and would not deter other possible violators. A higher court decided in favor of prosecutors, ruling on Dec. 15 that the couple be imprisoned immediately.
> The Cayman Compass newspaper reported that Judge Roger Chapple said during Tuesday’s sentencing that the decision to violate safety measures was born of “selfishness and arrogance,” adding in its report that Mack spent seven hours out in public without a face mask or social distancing.




Followed by... Wait for it...



> Family of U.S. teen jailed in Cayman Islands asks Trump for help
> 
> 
> Skylar Mack was sentenced to prison in the Cayman Islands for breaking Covid isolation protocols. Her family has appealed to the U.S. government for help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com





> The family of an American college student is appealing to the U.S. government for help as she faces a four-month prison sentence after pleading guilty to breaking the Cayman Islands' mandatory 14-day Covid-19 isolation protocols for visitors.
> 
> "She just wants to come home," 18-year-old Skylar Mack's grandmother, Jeanne Mack, told the "Today" show on Monday.
> 
> "She knows she made a mistake, she owns to up to that, but she's pretty hysterical right now."
> 
> Skylar is a pre-med student from Georgia. She traveled to visit her boyfriend, Vanjae Ramgeet, 24, who was in the Cayman Islands for a jet-skiing competition.
> 
> Mack did not isolate for the mandatory 14 days.
> 
> Instead, Mack said she isolated for two days and tested negative twice for coronavirus before abandoning her tracking device and leaving isolation to attend her boyfriend's jet-skiing competition.
> 
> Mack was sentenced to prison last week.
> 
> Jonathon Hughes, the attorney representing Mack and her boyfriend, said four months in prison — an upgraded sentence from community service — would have "a particularly harsh effect on her."
> 
> Her family said they appealed directly to President Donald Trump, whose office wrote back that her case would be forwarded to the "appropriate" federal agency, likely the U.S. State Department.


----------



## Clix Pix

Pre-med no more.....no medical school would accept her after this!


----------



## JayMysteri0

Wow.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1341401653736579075/

I wonder how this will get twisted?


----------



## thekev

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wow.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1341401653736579075/
> 
> I wonder how this will get twisted?




Either blah blah ..... socialism or something about Democrats spreading COVID. The really crazy ones might call this biological warfare if democratic Congress-critters have a lower median age than Republican counterparts.


----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## SuperMatt

thekev said:


> Either blah blah ..... socialism or something about Democrats spreading COVID. The really crazy ones might call this biological warfare if democratic Congress-critters have a lower median age than Republican counterparts.



I heard on the radio today that members of minority groups are skeptical of the virus.


JayMysteri0 said:


>



74,223,744 ignoramuses in America. I wish it was a smaller minority than that, but at least it is a minority.


----------



## Thomas Veil

​


----------



## Clix Pix

SuperMatt said:


> I heard on the radio today that members of minority groups are skeptical of the virus.
> 
> 74,223,744 ignoramuses in America. I wish it was a smaller minority than that, but at least it is a minority.




That is what is really scary:  all these clowns who are refusing to accept that this virus is real or that they could catch it -- who needs a silly mask, anyway?!  -- and therefore are running around spreading it are now saying that they're not going to take the vaccine injection when it becomes available to them.   Sigh...... This pandemic is probably going to go on a lot, lot longer than it ever should simply because of idiots like this.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Yeah, this is reassuring
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1343468734933917696/


----------



## lizkat

Thomas Veil said:


> View attachment 2063​




Yeah you might be surprised. Around here it's apparently macho in some guys' minds to battle the elements --aka head to the store in their biga$$ trucks to stock up on bread, beer or baby formula--   five minutes AFTER they close the roads.  And these are guys who have lived here all their lives so it's not like they don't know what a round of really bad weather looks like when it's setting up to roll in here.


----------



## Alli

It’s all a hoax, yet the newly elected congressman from Lousyanna (whose name escapes me) has just died from Covid. Never even got sworn in. So now they’ll need a special election.


----------



## Eric

On my NextDoor app they have posts where people are discussing restaurants that are defying closure orders so they can gather, and NextDoor is allowing it. As everyone knows CA is now the worst state in the nation and this is why and they're more than happy to let the hospitals fill up if it means being able to dine in somewhere.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Alli said:


> It’s all a hoax, yet the newly elected congressman from Lousyanna (whose name escapes me) has just died from Covid. Never even got sworn in. So now they’ll need a special election.



I was curious about where he stood on the virus, and I see of all things Herman Cain is trending because of him

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1344134128862601217/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1344126097244479490/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1344135893762928640/


----------



## User.45

Alli said:


> It’s all a hoax, yet the newly elected congressman from Lousyanna (whose name escapes me) has just died from Covid. Never even got sworn in. So now they’ll need a special election.



see what you did there


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> I was curious about where he stood on the virus, and I see of all things Herman Cain is trending because of him
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1344134128862601217/
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1344126097244479490/
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1344135893762928640/



He wasn't an antimasker though..."just" very inconsistent with the mask usage.

I'll use a gun owner analogy to this... The chances are very low to be killed _unintentionally_ by your own gun, but you always make sure there's no bullet in the chamber before you clean your weapon. That's the gun owner's analogy to the utility of masks. Not great, but may resonate better.


----------



## Alli

ericgtr12 said:


> On my NextDoor app they have posts where people are discussing restaurants that are defying closure orders so they can gather, and NextDoor is allowing it. As everyone knows CA is now the worst state in the nation and this is why and they're more than happy to let the hospitals fill up if it means being able to dine in somewhere.



Have you tried reporting them? Ours has been very good at removing posts (and people) who go on anti-mask kicks or make fun of those who wear masks.


----------



## SuperMatt

Well, the vaccine roll-out is going great. At its current pace, we should reach 80% vaccination by the year 2030. Trump is awesome!



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/12/29/covid-19-vaccine-distribution-slow-testing/


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> Have you tried reporting them? Ours has been very good at removing posts (and people) who go on anti-mask kicks or make fun of those who wear masks.



Yes but they're more sympathetic to right wing posts than MR.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Well, the vaccine roll-out is going great. At its current pace, we should reach 80% vaccination by the year 2030. Trump is awesome!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/12/29/covid-19-vaccine-distribution-slow-testing/



There's a huge state-wise scatter. I have at least 50 FB friends who got it already (all in healthcare). My wife is scheduled for next week. I've not heard about my shot yet...

That said I did complain about this before. Trump had shown no evidence of actually having an understanding of the magnitude and challenges of making a vaccination campaign like this reality.


----------



## lizkat

P_X said:


> Trump had shown no evidence of actually having an understanding of the magnitude and challenges of making a vaccination campaign like this reality.




Or of anything else involving human pain and loss.    Bloomberg had a roundup of photos from 2020, these are two that made me cry to think of how difficult it has been for all caregivers and family to get through this terrible time doing the best they can --and making innovations!--   to keep compassion in the picture for the patients.








​​And then there was the mixed messaging at the WH briefings... and the risk-balancing scientists should not have had to make in weighing what to say when Trump had said his piece...
​

​​​


----------



## DT

ericgtr12 said:


> On my NextDoor app they have posts where people are discussing restaurants that are defying closure orders so they can gather, and NextDoor is allowing it. As everyone knows CA is now the worst state in the nation and this is why and they're more than happy to let the hospitals fill up if it means being able to dine in somewhere.




NextDoor has gotten just as bad as most [other] social sites, I've reported, complained, nobody cares, so I don't participate any longer.


----------



## DT

@P_X 

This thread in the darklands ...



			https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/coronavirus-vaccinations-have-started.2275315/page-5
		


Specifically, the question from VulchR (I wish they would join us here), the AG response, etc., your $0.02 ?


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> @P_X
> 
> This thread in the darklands ...
> 
> 
> 
> https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/coronavirus-vaccinations-have-started.2275315/page-5
> 
> 
> 
> Specifically, the question from VulchR (I wish they would join us here), the AG response, etc., your $0.02 ?



Looking back I sent VulchR an invite back on September 8th and didn't receive a reply FWIW.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> @P_X
> 
> This thread in the darklands ...
> 
> 
> 
> https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/coronavirus-vaccinations-have-started.2275315/page-5
> 
> 
> 
> Specifically, the question from VulchR (I wish they would join us here), the AG response, etc., your $0.02 ?



That's one impressive question! Kinda underwhelmed by AG's response...


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> @P_X
> 
> This thread in the darklands ...
> 
> 
> 
> https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/coronavirus-vaccinations-have-started.2275315/page-5
> 
> 
> 
> Specifically, the question from VulchR (I wish they would join us here), the AG response, etc., your $0.02 ?




The answers (without doing a deep dive):
1. mRNA is pushed intramuscularly. Muscle cells are literally the largest cells so a significant portion of the shot probably gets in muscle cells, and some into the interstitium (space between muscle cells). It probably doesn't even hit your circulation.
2. The vehicle (liposome) will allow the mRNA to pass into the cells [muscle here], which is a great kind of tissue full of ribosomes, that are like sewing machines using mRNA going in and synthesizing the spike protein.
Things get a little less clear to me, because the rest of the virus' machinery complement the spike protein, whereas this isn't the case here but then the spike protein could produce an immunogenic signal in multiple ways
3a. Cells have major histocompatibility complex (MHC-1) molecules that they use as virtual flag poles to display flags indicating what's getting expressed int he cell itself. Spike protein could be recognized through MHC-1 and trigger cellular immune response.
3b. Spike protein is directly immunogenic and is a transmembrane protein on its own, so it could stick out the cell membrane directly and trigger an immune response
3c. Extracellular leakage or transport of the spike protein can be picked up by professional antigen presenting cells (APCs), integrating it into their MHC-2 (imagine like police sharing "Wanted" posters") and triggering cellular and humoral immune response.

The acute side-effects could therefore be due to the mRNA or due to an exacerbated immune response, which would primarily target the muscle. It doesn't seem to be the case, I suspect it's due to the short half life of mRNA (which is like a USB stick in genetic informatics), so by the time cytotoxic immune response would be triggered (cell killing), the mRNA is gone.

Same thing applies to the blood brain barrier. It's a super barrier that's hard to cross, even for mRNA, which would have to make it to the systemic circulation from the interstitial space in an interval that is shorter than the mRNA half life. Even less likely.

How is this better than the adenovirus? The concern is that if you already have some level of immune response to the adenovirus vector (which is expected to be rare, but feasible), you'll clear the vector without mounting an immune response against its payload.

Why is it safe to use the mRNA vaccines?
A) Because they have fantastic signal-to-noise ratio. This is also the reason how these were developed so insanely quickly (Fauci's institute identified the target epitope in like 10 days after they got the sequence of SARS-CoV-2!!!). Why don't design an artificial virus to do the same? See the attenuated adenovirus' problem: if people mount a response against the vaccine vector, then your vaccine is worthless.
B) Because they went through rigorous phase III testing. Safety was established in phase I, effective dosing in phase II and large scale efficacy in phase III, and at all levels safety data was very closely monitored.

*TL;DR: money's on the short half life of the mRNA. Long enough to trigger an immune response, too short to produce major local or distal inflammation. The vaccine was adequately tested too and it would have to be the worst vaccine I've ever heard of to be on par with the complications of COVID.*

What's the catch?! We have evidence of high efficacy in the first 2-4 months. Nobody knows how those numbers will drop over time...

(probably have some inaccuracies here but that's my best response without reading up)


----------



## DT

@ericgtr12 I believe someone said they PM'ed them and their response was "Thanks, but just sticking to one major site for now", you know, time, etc.  Maybe I'll ping them directly with a link to the @P_X's response / post #248.

@P_X Thanks!  I won't suggest I understood everything in your response, but between a few med reference sites for some clarifications (I had like 20 tabs and 3 windows open ...), and some of your simplified examples, that was extremely helpful and informative.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Not good
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1344454695465713664/


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1344525101853655043/


----------



## Edd

I work in pharmaceutical manufacturing. We’re a contract manufacturer for drug companies. As it happens, we’re making Moderna’s vaccine at my site. When that news broke I initially assumed my department would be working on it but it went to a newer part of the facility.

One of the perks we lost when COVID started was our employee gym. Now, they’re converting it into a COVID testing center for employees. There’s an expectation floating around that we’ll be early vaccine recipients but no news on that.

After frontline workers, it seems proper to me that grocery store and pharmacy workers should get it.


----------



## lizkat

Is it too soon for a covid vaccine joke ?   One meant for grammarians to retweet.


----------



## Eric

lizkat said:


> Is it too soon for a covid vaccine joke ?   One meant for grammarians to retweet.
> 
> View attachment 2275



Okay, now this is funny. However, the Oxford comma will always be one of the pointless mysteries of the world to me.


----------



## lizkat

ericgtr12 said:


> Okay, now this is funny. However, the Oxford comma will always be one of the pointless mysteries of the world to m




I thought it was pretty funny they managed to spell Moderna wrong while focused on the commas....


----------



## Alli

ericgtr12 said:


> Okay, now this is funny. However, the Oxford comma will always be one of the pointless mysteries of the world to me.



It’s not that complicated.


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> Is it too soon for a covid vaccine joke ?   One meant for grammarians to retweet.
> 
> View attachment 2275





Alli said:


> It’s not that complicated.



It is! I, do not, get it


----------



## lizkat

Serial comma - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




It's just a joke about the Oxford (or serial) comma, i.e., the one before the word "and" in a series.  

Some say a serial comma clarifies status of the last item versus the previous one(s).  Others say it's just excess baggage.  It all depends on what's in the series and possibly on how those items are qualified.   In the case of that joke, that last comma is pretty useless if you ask me.   But there are cases where it does resolve ambiguity.

An apocryphal book dedication is given in the wiki explanation.   The second form has the serial comma.

To my parents, Ayn Rand and God.​To my parents, Ayn Rand, and God.​





						Serial comma - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Sometimes a comma has been the focus of court cases. I'm not talking about the one in the Second Amendment either.









						An Oxford comma changed this court case completely | CNN
					

If you have ever doubted the importance of the humble Oxford comma, let this supremely persnickety Maine labor dispute set you straight.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## lizkat

And once again I managed to derail a thread... apologies.   

This thread is supposed to be about Covid.


----------



## Alli

P_X said:


> It is! I, do not, get it



Thank you, William Shatner.


lizkat said:


> This thread is supposed to be about Covid.



Honestly, I’d rather talk about the Oxford comma.


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> Serial comma - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's just a joke about the Oxford (or serial) comma, i.e., the one before the word "and" in a series.
> 
> Some say a serial comma clarifies status of the last item versus the previous one(s).  Others say it's just excess baggage.  It all depends on what's in the series and possibly on how those items are qualified.   In the case of that joke, that last comma is pretty useless if you ask me.   But there are cases where it does resolve ambiguity.
> 
> An apocryphal book dedication is given in the wiki explanation.   The second form has the serial comma.
> 
> To my parents, Ayn Rand and God.​To my parents, Ayn Rand, and God.​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Serial comma - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes a comma has been the focus of court cases. I'm not talking about the one in the Second Amendment either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An Oxford comma changed this court case completely | CNN
> 
> 
> If you have ever doubted the importance of the humble Oxford comma, let this supremely persnickety Maine labor dispute set you straight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com



Ah, the english language. Sometimes I feel its main purpose is to perpetuate ambiguity.


----------



## User.45

We could also talk about how pathetic the vaccine roll out has been...but the Oxford comma is still more pleasant than the COVID coma.


----------



## lizkat

P_X said:


> Ah, the english language. Sometimes I feel its main purpose is to perpetuate ambiguity.




I'm a huge fan of ambiguity in contexts where it's either useful, harmless or just entertaining.    Oxford commas though do sometimes provide clarity where ambiguity might provide comic relief where it's not wanted.



Alli said:


> Honestly, I’d rather talk about the Oxford comma.





P_X said:


> We could also talk about how pathetic the vaccine roll out has been...but the Oxford comma is still more pleasant than the COVID coma.




I'd like to think the fricken Covid will become something we all talk about in the past tense in 2021 and don't have to wait until 2022-23 as some are now suggesting.   But on day one of a New Year I'll stick to quoting (paraphrasing?) a now out of favor movie's Scarlett O'Hara:   "I'm not going to think about that today, i'll think about that tomorrow."  

Even so, I'd feel better about the lessons Covid has put on offer for us if I thought that more people in at least the USA took it seriously.   Seeing how many people have decided to just do their own thing in defiance or disregard of public health guidelines makes me uneasy.    The politicization of responses to Covid has been a huge step backwards:  we're less prepared than ever at the level of public understanding to deal with a pandemic caused by organisms that can arrive with higher rates of both contagion and fatality.    That's the real and costly legacy of Donald Trump right there.


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> I'm a huge fan of ambiguity in contexts where it's either useful, harmless or just entertaining.    Oxford commas though do sometimes provide clarity where ambiguity might provide comic relief where it's not wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to think the fricken Covid will become something we all talk about in the past tense in 2021 and don't have to wait until 2022-23 as some are now suggesting.   But on day one of a New Year I'll stick to quoting (paraphrasing?) a now out of favor movie's Scarlett O'Hara:   "I'm not going to think about that today, i'll think about that tomorrow."
> 
> Even so, I'd feel better about the lessons Covid has put on offer for us if I thought that more people in at least the USA took it seriously.   Seeing how many people have decided to just do their own thing in defiance or disregard of public health guidelines makes me uneasy.    The politicization of responses to Covid has been a huge step backwards:  we're less prepared than ever at the level of public understanding to deal with a pandemic caused by organisms that can arrive with higher rates of both contagion and fatality.    That's the real and costly legacy of Donald Trump right there.



I've renamed CoViD-19 to simply CoViD in April...which reflects my opinion about the persistence of this issue.

IMHO, CoViD taught me/us more about what to expect when we hit the criticality portion of climate change. An absolute fucking shit show where certain people will be busier rewriting history on their own abysmal approach to the issue, than actually mitigating it. Some politicians will twiddle their thumbs in the wait for scientists/engineers to solve the issue and the moment there's a hint of a breakthrough they'll try to take all the fucking credit and their sycophants will make attempts to name the CO2 absorbing megabuildings named after them.


----------



## SuperMatt

The USA has 4% of the world’s population and almost 25% of the COVID cases. This is due to a failure of leadership, period.









						The pandemic's toll in 2020 and the difficult road ahead
					

Since the first reported case of COVID-19 a little more than a year ago, the pandemic has taken a devastating toll in the U.S. -- far worse than in many other developed countries. Donald G. McNeil Jr., a science and health reporter for The New York Times, joins Judy Woodruff to give some...




					www.pbs.org


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> The USA has 4% of the world’s population and almost 25% of the COVID cases. This is due to a failure of leadership, period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pandemic's toll in 2020 and the difficult road ahead
> 
> 
> Since the first reported case of COVID-19 a little more than a year ago, the pandemic has taken a devastating toll in the U.S. -- far worse than in many other developed countries. Donald G. McNeil Jr., a science and health reporter for The New York Times, joins Judy Woodruff to give some...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pbs.org



That's testing, and Trump isn't absolutely wrong about that...
...But USA also contributed 19% of the world's COVID deaths.
Now THAT IS NOT A TESTING ISSUE.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> That's testing, and Trump isn't absolutely wrong about that...
> ...But USA also contributed 19% of the world's COVID deaths.
> Now THAT IS NOT A TESTING ISSUE.



Funny how the deaths due to the disease match the reported cases pretty closely, eh? But sure let’s buy Trump’s BS that we only 
APPEAR to have more cases because we did so many tests.... what a crock of .


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Funny how the deaths due to the disease match the reported cases pretty closely, eh? But sure let’s buy Trump’s BS that we only
> APPEAR to have more cases because we did so many tests.... what a crock of .



Don't get me wrong, the testing argument is false, but it takes much more effort to disprove it from the testing angle than from the angle of mortality.

Imagine wanting to observe icebergs. The tip is mortality, the rest of the cases are below the water. You don't have to dive in to point out what a huge iceberg is sticking out of the water.


----------



## SuperMatt

The Trump supporters have found a whole new level of when it comes to his COVID response. Saw on a conservative forum somebody saying he did a ”stellar” job of handling the virus. When somebody pointed out the data indicating we actually handled it worse than any other country, here’s the response:



> We can put that on Biden. He has the master plan. He’s had it this whole time. Unfortunately, he isn’t sharing the plan until he’s inaugurated. He’s a worthless POS.



Now THAT impresses me. Props to that guy for stretching the limits of human stupidity.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1345060660707794945/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Bruh... 
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1345081841464840193/


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Bruh...
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1345081841464840193/



I watched the whole thing Is it just me or these people really don't know how to partey. Reminds me of the cringy medschool parties, except that the company was at least nice at those.


----------



## Clix Pix

I wonder how many of those people will be seriously ill or even dead within the next three or four weeks?   Not to mention all the innocent people that they will infect, too....


----------



## JayMysteri0

It comes down to mindsets.  When some are more into their feelings over anyone/anything else we have to hear the phrase, "This is why we can't have nice things"

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1345679483597189121/


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> It comes down to mindsets.  When some are more into their feelings over anyone/anything else we have to hear the phrase, "This is why we can't have nice things"
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1345679483597189121/



The headline could have been: Malevolent pharmacist has basic understanding of pharmacology.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> It’s not that complicated.



It's also pointless. And (and or) implies the break so whey is there a need for an additional comma? Seems unnecessarily duplicative.


----------



## Eric

I have been having dreams where I am around other people in public without masks on and no fear of it. It feels bizarre to be dreaming about something like that.


----------



## Clix Pix

I notice now that when I'm looking at a photo and see people without masks, I immediately think, "ack, where's their masks?" and then realize that I'm looking at a photo from the "before times," the days when few people in the US ever thought of using a mask.....


----------



## User.45

Clix Pix said:


> I notice now that when I'm looking at a photo and see people without masks, I immediately think, "ack, where's their masks?" and then realize that I'm looking at a photo from the "before times," the days when few people in the US ever thought of using a mask.....



The thing is, I'm starting to believe that the mask work vs don't work argument really boils down to 
1) people actually wearing them, not just claiming they do (yes, Mr. Newsom I'm looking at you)
2) people actually wearing them correctly. I glimpsed at an NFL game where the coach walks to the ref, pulls down his mask to talk to him, and pulls it back on his face once he's done talking. WTF. Don't even get me started on noses sticking out. 

I suspect this is one of the reasons is suspect East Asian countries are doing much better.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> The thing is, I'm starting to believe that the mask work vs don't work argument really boils down to
> 1) people actually wearing them, not just claiming they do (yes, Mr. Newsom I'm looking at you)
> 2) people actually wearing them correctly. I glimpsed at an NFL game where the coach walks to the ref, pulls down his mask to talk to him, and pulls it back on his face once he's done talking. WTF. Don't even get me started on noses sticking out.
> 
> I suspect this is one of the reasons is suspect East Asian countries are doing much better.



I saw an older guy in the store today (grocery run) who felt it necessary to put his mask below his chin so he could look at a box of something. Was he going to lick it? Pissed me off, but I just stayed far away from him. Somehow every other person in the store managed to do things correctly.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> I saw an older guy in the store today (grocery run) who felt it necessary to put his mask below his chin so he could look at a box of something. Was he going to lick it? Pissed me off, but I just stayed far away from him. Somehow every other person in the store managed to do things correctly.



Since our delivery drivers cannot put a mask on when coming up our corridor I put in a small (dog or child) gate at the end of it with a note that says "please leave deliveries in front of the gate". This way they're actually outside of the entire house and we can just walk out and grab the packages without having to wait for the air to clear.

It saddens me that so many people cannot take this simple step, we are our own worst enemies with this virus.


----------



## User.45

Yeah! Scheduled for my shot this week.
Wife's getting Moderna, I'm getting Pfizer. What a family divide...


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> Yeah! Scheduled for my shot this week.
> Wife's getting Moderna, I'm getting Pfizer. What a family divide...



Finally, a family divide we can all agree on. Congrats to both of you.


----------



## JayMysteri0

I kind of like where their head is at on this one, but whatever gets people there
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1345889200588132352/


----------



## JayMysteri0

All the warmth & compassion on display for the lives lost...
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1346664813942943744/

I know it's bad to wish Covid on others, but if anyone...


----------



## JayMysteri0

You'd almost think there was a pandemic going on...
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1346673597293748224/
...almost.


----------



## lizkat

Re air travel: nothing flying >18k feet now, NJ to SC.  Regional ATC down, covid

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1348351547890159623/


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## SuperMatt

theSeb said:


> There is no COVID vaccine reserve. Trump admin already shipped it
> 
> 
> "This is a deception on a national scale."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arstechnica.com



Just another crime against humanity to add to the list. And yet 74 million people took the time to vote FOR him to be in charge another 4 years. This country is seriously f-ed up. Will the Capitol insurrection cause people to wake up? Or will people quickly forget and get back into the Fox News outrage cycle pushing baloney like blaming Antifa for the insurrection, or threatening that Biden will confiscate everybody’s guns, etc?


----------



## Alli

SuperMatt said:


> Just another crime against humanity to add to the list. And yet 74 million people took the time to vote FOR him to be in charge another 4 years. This country is seriously f-ed up. Will the Capitol insurrection cause people to wake up? Or will people quickly forget and get back into the Fox News outrage cycle pushing baloney like blaming Antifa for the insurrection, or threatening that Biden will confiscate everybody’s guns, etc?



I think anyone who voted for him should be moved to the back of the line for the vaccine.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Uh...
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350851124446769154/


----------



## Arkitect

JayMysteri0 said:


> Uh...
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350851124446769154/



Yup… very concerning.
I saw this a few days on the Telegraph Torygraph site…

So far no new developments.

Same with the Minks in Denmark… cats… god knows where this could end.


----------



## lizkat

Meanwhile Florida continues proving itself a probably welcoming environment for a post-WH Trump.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350915605831053314/


----------



## SuperMatt

lizkat said:


> Meanwhile Florida continues proving itself a probably welcoming environment for a post-WH Trump.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350915605831053314/



A bad thing about ideologues running things in government is when they do stuff like this, they personally don’t suffer from the inevitable wrongful arrest lawsuit/multi-million $ settlement that is certain to follow when this woman easily wins in court.


----------



## lizkat

SuperMatt said:


> A bad thing about ideologues running things in government is when they do stuff like this, they personally don’t suffer from the inevitable wrongful arrest lawsuit/multi-million $ settlement that is certain to follow when this woman easily wins in court.




Yet the idiots among the taxpayers will often re-elect those same ideologues. 

"Soft on crime!"  or  "Socialism!" TV ads played a thousand times during campaign season two years from now will likely far outweigh any passing recollections of a lawsuit some governmental entity chose to settle.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Why is THIS guy getting letters with powder in them?    
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1353443801642246150/


----------



## Thomas Veil

P_X said:


> Yeah! Scheduled for my shot this week.
> Wife's getting Moderna, I'm getting Pfizer. What a family divide...



Hey, with a little effort we could turn this into a Mac vs. Windows kind of thing. 

(Johnson & Johnson single-dose vaccine commercial:

“There’s no step 2. [Chuckles] There’s no step 2!”)

I was more than pleased to be able to take my mom for her first shot this weekend. Can’t wait for my wife and I to be able to get ours as well. But that’s at least a month or more off.


----------



## User.45

Thomas Veil said:


> Hey, with a little effort we could turn this into a Mac vs. Windows kind of thing.
> 
> (Johnson & Johnson single-dose vaccine commercial:
> 
> “There’s no step 2. [Chuckles] There’s no step 2!”)
> 
> I was more than pleased to be able to take my mom for her first shot this weekend. Can’t wait for my wife and I to be able to get ours as well. But that’s at least a month or more off.



I'm getting my 2nd tomorrow. We'll see...


----------



## Thomas Veil

lizkat said:


> Yet the idiots among the taxpayers will often re-elect those same ideologues.
> 
> "Soft on crime!"  or  "Socialism!" TV ads played a thousand times during campaign season two years from now will likely far outweigh any passing recollections of a lawsuit some governmental entity chose to settle.



The Democratic Party among others needs to get their act together and call the Republicans soft on crime (especially terrorism) and fascist every chance they get. I know they don’t do that often, but if not now, when?


----------



## lizkat

Thomas Veil said:


> The Democratic Party among others needs to get their act together and call the Republicans soft on crime (especially terrorism) and fascist every chance they get. I know they don’t do that often, but if not now, when?




I don't so much care what Dems or any responsible Republicans call any who enabled or supported the insurrection at the Capitol, but I do care that the guilty get punished because to ignore an attempted coup merely invites a better organized one in future.   And it's apparent that some members of Congress supported the idea of overturning an election that the Trump administration's head of cybersecurity had called "the most secure" election the USA has ever held.

 Of course Trump promptly fired that guy for having said that.  The point though is that the election was lost, not stolen, and yet over a hundred fifty members of Congress participated in a grotesquely extended denial of that fact, contributing to the unrest and eventual signing-on of Trump fans to the march to and breach of the Capitol on January 6th after Trump laid on his exhortations to go down there and fight.  

And then there's the underwriting by right wing media of the Trump-GOP false claims...  remains to be seen if they go completely free of consequence or if "the market" will deal some memorable cards to at least some of the more widely viewed outlets like Fox.  Right now Fox is doing essentially the same thing some GOP Congress members are doing, i.e. trying to hang onto Trump's base. 

I find media perpetuation of the Big Lie about the 2020 election even more reprehensible than how the congressmen are behaving, since the Fourth Estate is what we have counted on to shine a light and provide robust defense against a tyrannical government.  So what could seem more of a lackey to tyranny than a media outlet like Fox dedicating itself to Trump's fantasy of a perpetual occupancy of the American presidency?


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> Re air travel: nothing flying >18k feet now, NJ to SC.  Regional ATC down, covid
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1348351547890159623/



These are the exact things that reveal why  focusing only on deaths misses the big picture.









						Trump administration had no coronavirus vaccine distribution plan: White House
					

There was no distribution plan for the coronavirus vaccine set up by the Trump administration as the virus raged in its last months in office, new President Joe Biden's chief of staff, Ron Klain, said on Sunday.




					www.reuters.com
				





> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - There was no distribution plan for the coronavirus vaccine set up by the Trump administration as the virus raged in its last months in office, new President Joe Biden’s chief of staff, Ron Klain, said on Sunday.
> 
> “The process to distribute the vaccine, particularly outside of nursing homes and hospitals out into the community as a whole, did not really exist when we came into the White House,” Klain said on NBC’s “Meet the Press.”




Now the claim from a reputable source (I prefer Reuters over CNN any day of the week) with a concrete name and statement. We'll see how much of this is true, but my bias is that it is mostly true...



JayMysteri0 said:


> Uh...
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1350851124446769154/



Earlier into the pandemic there were big cats testing positive for COVID too. This virus seems to have like a viral version of Rosetta Stone... it runs on mammalian hardware without many problems. The concern really is how it could mutate further in extra animal populations. But TBH, diseases like this always existed. It's just that we never cared and never had the capacity to test and track these processes. So I'd say this is just a previously hidden level or reality we became aware of. What's been really interesting of SARS-CoV2 is that it was highly infectious from the get go and is getting more infections whereas case fatality rate just doesn't seem to drop drastically beyond what we artificially see due to better testing. Usually from an evolutionary aspect, spreading faster poses a major selection benefit whereas the severity of disease if anything, is even a negative factor in selection (if people die before they can spread the disease the strain dies out with the host).

This is just a weird ass virus.


----------



## Alli

P_X said:


> This is just a weird ass virus.



That is the understatement of the decade.

My mother gets her second dose tomorrow. Still no idea when either my 65+ husband or I will be eligible for the first dose. Alabama leaps to the back of the line again!


----------



## User.45

Alli said:


> That is the understatement of the decade.
> 
> My mother gets her second dose tomorrow. Still no idea when either my 65+ husband or I will be eligible for the first dose. Alabama leaps to the back of the line again!



You'd already be eligible in my state.


----------



## Alli

P_X said:


> You'd already be eligible in my state.



Hail to Alabackwards.


----------



## JayMysteri0

> Oklahoma trying to return $2 million stockpile of hydroxychloroquine
> 
> 
> Oklahoma is trying to return $2 million worth of hydroxychloroquine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nydailynews.com





> The state of Oklahoma is trying to return $2 million worth of hydroxychloroquine it purchased at the behest of former President Donald Trump last spring.
> 
> Republican Gov. Kevin Stitt made the purchase from a California-based company in April and said the anti-malaria drug could be used for other things if it proved to be ineffective against COVID-19 and “that money will not have gone to waste in any respect.”


----------



## lizkat

JayMysteri0 said:


>




So they found out the stuff only works on *for* swamp critters, eh? 

Whadda surprise.


----------



## User.45

Got my second shot. It's been a trip. I've been feeling intoxicated for the past 24h, but the most hilarious thing isn't that.
I got the shot in the left arm and it's been warmer to touch than the right. I've been having 3-limb chills, but not in my left arm. It remained nice and warm. Definitely recommend people to get this on a Friday and plan for a lazy Saturday afterwards.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


>



Yaaay. Lupus patients will finally have access to their drug!!!


----------



## lizkat

P_X said:


> Got my second shot. It's been a trip. I've been feeling intoxicated for the past 24h, but the most hilarious thing isn't that.
> I got the shot in the left arm and it's been warmer to touch than the right. I've been having 3-limb chills, but not in my left arm. It remained nice and warm. Definitely recommend people to get this on a Friday and plan for a lazy Saturday afterwards.




Heh, I'm starting to like the idea that rural areas are more likely to end up with the one-dose J&J vaccine due in part to its not requiring supercold storage and also because rural residents may have more difficulty getting to a site to receive the vaccine to begin with.   One and done sounds good to me...


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> Heh, I'm starting to like the idea that rural areas are more likely to end up with the one-dose J&J vaccine due in part to its not requiring supercold storage and also because rural residents may have more difficulty getting to a site to receive the vaccine to begin with.   One and done sounds good to me...



We'll see...there are so many unknowns. The 2-shot combo is great for healthcare workers. Two of my colleagues partook in the Moderna trial. One got placebo, the other the real deal. We try our best double blinding these studies, but boy, everybody can easily tell who got the actual vaccine


----------



## lizkat

P_X said:


> We'll see...there are so many unknowns. The 2-shot combo is great for healthcare workers. Two of my colleagues partook in the Moderna trial. One got placebo, the other the real deal. We try our best double blinding these studies, but boy, everybody can easily tell who got the actual vaccine




I have kin and a couple friends who are making a four-hour drive farther upstate to appointments for the first shot late next week. That's four hours one way, so it's a bit daunting to know they have to repeat the gig three weeks later...  not the greatest weather to be taking the scenic tour of the North Country area.   

As I don't have work or social requirements to go out, I feel blessed I can just continue taking the basic "closed door" approach to maintaining distance from the virus,  until a vaccine is offered a little bit closer to home later on.  My winter pantry is holding up well so far and I don't even need to re-up on delivery of fresh or frozen things again until sometime well into February.

So a lot of things to be grateful for.. and I am mindful of it every time I pick up a paper and read about what so many people are going through.  Way too many now struggling just to keep food on the table and roof overhead.   

I really hope the push to vaccinate more people in a much shorter time frame will be successful.  Some friends who work in retail settings locally have noticed that people apparently grow more weary by the week now of masking up, and so are not doing it in larger numbers, regardless of their politics.   And the case rate has gone up here again, even in this sparsely populated area.  Ugh. Are we Americans just not able to adopt a necessary routine and stick to it for as long as it's going to take to beat this thing back and make a normal life more possible sooner?


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> I have kin and a couple friends who are making a four-hour drive farther upstate to appointments for the first shot late next week. That's four hours one way, so it's a bit daunting to know they have to repeat the gig three weeks later...  not the greatest weather to be taking the scenic tour of the North Country area.
> 
> As I don't have work or social requirements to go out, I feel blessed I can just continue taking the basic "closed door" approach to maintaining distance from the virus,  until a vaccine is offered a little bit closer to home later on.  My winter pantry is holding up well so far and I don't even need to re-up on delivery of fresh or frozen things again until sometime well into February.
> 
> So a lot of things to be grateful for.. and I am mindful of it every time I pick up a paper and read about what so many people are going through.  Way too many now struggling just to keep food on the table and roof overhead.
> 
> I really hope the push to vaccinate more people in a much shorter time frame will be successful.  Some friends who work in retail settings locally have noticed that people apparently grow more weary by the week now of masking up, and so are not doing it in larger numbers, regardless of their politics.   And the case rate has gone up here again, even in this sparsely populated area.  Ugh. *Are we Americans just not able to adopt a necessary routine and stick to it for as long as it's going to take to beat this thing back and make a normal life more possible sooner?*



A 4H drive after the second dose might be tricky... I suspect a lot of people will forego the second dose and who knows how that will impact their  immunity. We are all tired of masking for sure and I'm tired of lecturing people about it. COVID fatigue is sadly normal, it happened in Europe as well and they are my control for normalcy. What wasn't normal is Americans throwing fits about masking in the first months.


----------



## lizkat

P_X said:


> A 4H drive after the second dose might be tricky... I suspect a lot of people will forego the second dose and who knows how that will impact their  immunity. We are all tired of masking for sure and I'm tired of lecturing people about it. COVID fatigue is sadly normal, it happened in Europe as well and they are my control for normalcy. What wasn't normal is Americans throwing fits about masking in the first months.




They are taking a young relative with them for the driving re second dose...  were thinking to stay in a motel instead but for assorted reasons that didn't make a whole lot of sense.


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> They are taking a young relative with them for the driving re second dose...  were thinking to stay in a motel instead but for assorted reasons that didn't make a whole lot of sense.



That's more reassuring for sure.


----------



## Alli

I figure Covid vaccinations should be available for most of us in Alabama by 2022. I'm hoping with that kind of delay it will be a one dose deal.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1354836669292228608/


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> I figure Covid vaccinations should be available for most of us in Alabama by 2022. I'm hoping with that kind of delay it will be a one dose deal.




My local paper said a nearby clinic just got a couple hundred first doses of Moderna --which for this region has to be packed in dry ice and trucked down about sixty miles-- for the phase 1b group

(first responders, e.g., firefighters and police; educators, including teachers, support staff and day care workers; food and agriculture workers; manufacturing employees; corrections workers; employees at the U.S. Postal Service; public transit workers; grocery store workers...  and people 75 and older).​
The area clinic also noted they already had about 5,000 people registered to the wait list in those categories.   So it will be awhile for most of us over-75s who are still living independently.   I'm liking my deep winter pantry!


----------



## User.45

Alli said:


> I figure Covid vaccinations should be available for most of us in Alabama by 2022. I'm hoping with that kind of delay it will be a one dose deal.



YOU.
SHOULD.
BE.
ELIGIBLE.
NOW!

That's all I can say about it


----------



## Clix Pix

On another site I read where the Moderna vaccine provides 80% immunity after a couple weeks of the first dose......the second dose presumably provides the rest of the 20% or close to it along with the physical whammy it delivers, too to the recipient.    Availability remains a concern, although my guess is that they are going to be keeping tabs on the supply in order to be able to deliver second doses of those who have already had the initial one, even if some have to wait for that first dose....??

Yeah, I saw reports of the mess in Philly and that just really sucks, the whole situation!  Now people who should have already been safely vaccinated for the first round haven't been and everything was royally screwed up.  I'm glad that at least the city has discontinued their connection with that (more or less pseudo) and definitely unqualified organization which really was not suitable to have been administering vaccinations in the first place.  Now Philadelphia is  pretty much having to start over again, which isn't all that helpful for the residents of that city.  Ouch!


----------



## User.45

Clix Pix said:


> On another site I read where the Moderna vaccine provides 80% immunity after a couple weeks of the first dose......the second dose presumably provides the rest of the 20% or close to it along with the physical whammy it delivers, too to the recipient.    Availability remains a concern, although my guess is that they are going to be keeping tabs on the supply in order to be able to deliver second doses of those who have already had the initial one, even if some have to wait for that first dose....??



Yup antibody titers peak on day #42 from shot #1. The efficacy data is BS though because it will likely diminish over time. We just don't know how quickly (data is primarily from a 4month window)


----------



## Clix Pix

I am figuring that there will be a need for "booster" vaccinations for all of us over the upcoming years once this initial dosage protocol has been completed...... At this point we still don't know for sure how long the current vaccinations will protect us, and my guess is that this isn't the end of the story when it comes to COVID-19.


----------



## Alli

P_X said:


> YOU.
> SHOULD.
> BE.
> ELIGIBLE.
> NOW!
> 
> That's all I can say about it



Yes, I know. Although I just heard that some cancer survivors are being told they cannot take the vaccine. I wonder if it’s only for certain cancers?


----------



## Alli

Clix Pix said:


> I am figuring that there will be a need for "booster" vaccinations for all of us over the upcoming years once this initial dosage protocol has been completed...... At this point we still don't know for sure how long the current vaccinations will protect us, and my guess is that this isn't the end of the story when it comes to COVID-19.



Unfortunately, I’m sure you’re correct. It may wind up being like the annual flu shot.


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1354836669292228608/



Jail time...


----------



## User.45

Clix Pix said:


> I am figuring that there will be a need for "booster" vaccinations for all of us over the upcoming years once this initial dosage protocol has been completed...... At this point we still don't know for sure how long the current vaccinations will protect us, and my guess is that this isn't the end of the story when it comes to COVID-19.



Correct. We might be looking ahead of COVID-21.:/



Alli said:


> Yes, I know. Although I just heard that some cancer survivors are being told they cannot take the vaccine. I wonder if it’s only for certain cancers?



It's only for those treated with rituximab (anti CD20 antibody targeting B-lymphocytes). They have a much lower chance to mount an immune response to the Flu shot, so that is extrapolated to COVID. Now...half life of Ritux is ~24days and you need 5 halflives to consider a drug gone. So this means we should have stopped rituximab on these patients in August... I only have one person on this drug right now but I told them to get the shot whenever they can...We can check their antibodies at day #42. I'd rather give it to them than to Marco fucking Rubio. (I also had the liberty to stop the rituximab after some discussion with our group).


----------



## Alli

P_X said:


> I'd rather give it to them than to Marco fucking Rubio.



I'd rather give almost anyone anything before Rubio gets it. Poor Florida.


----------



## lizkat

I read that although the J&J vaccine in large trial has proven only 66% effective against moderate to severe instances of covid infection, it has been excellent in preventing levels of illness resulting in hospitalization or death.  And requires only regular refrigeration, so overall sounds like a good solution for the less densely populated rural areas after it gets the emergency FDA authorization it will seek sometime next week.  They expect approval by March and to be able to deliver 100 million doses in the USA by June.





__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				






> In a study of more than 44,000 people, the vaccine prevented 66% of moderate to severe cases of Covid-19, according to a company statement Friday. And it was particularly effective at stopping severe disease, preventing 85% of severe infections and 100% of hospitalizations and deaths.
> 
> “If you can prevent severe disease in a high percentage of individuals, that will alleviate so much of the stress and human suffering” of the pandemic, said Anthony Fauci, the top U.S. infectious-disease official, at a briefing on the results with company and government officials.







> If cleared, J&J’s vaccine could go a long way toward ending the pandemic. Competing vaccines from Moderna Inc. and Pfizer Inc. have generated stronger overall efficacy rates of more than 90%, but require two shots to be given before their full benefits take hold. J&J’s shot also can be kept in a refrigerator for three months, while those from Pfizer and Moderna must be kept frozen.
> 
> “This is a single shot that can be given easily, it protects completely from that which we fear, having to go to the emergency room or a hospital,” said Mathai Mammen, head of global research and development for J&J’s pharmaceutical division, in an interview. “It’s going to change the nature of the disease.”


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> I read that although the J&J vaccine in large trial has proven only 66% effective against moderate to severe instances of covid infection, it has been excellent in preventing levels of illness resulting in hospitalization or death.  And requires only regular refrigeration, so overall sounds like a good solution for the less densely populated rural areas after it gets the emergency FDA authorization it will seek sometime next week.  They expect approval by March and to be able to deliver 100 million doses in the USA by June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com



I'd say this gives off a vibe of a good spin for mediocre results in way that's beneficial to company stock value. I suspect they haven't met their primary endpoint and these listed are secondary trial endpoints at best, posthoc analyses at worst. However, it'd take more  effort looking into this than I'm willing to make today.


----------



## lizkat

P_X said:


> I'd say this gives off a vibe of a good spin for mediocre results in way that's beneficial to company stock value. I suspect they haven't met their primary endpoint and these listed are secondary trial endpoints at best, posthoc analyses at worst. However, it'd take more  effort looking into this than I'm willing to make today.




I'm hoping the FDA feels like making the effort it should make before it grants the authorization.

Still, zero deaths and 85% not landing in hospital sounds promising.  As for the efficacy, 66% is better than flu vaccines some years, and if the J&J one is as good as its trials indicate on preventing need for hospitalization,  that's a plus.   Among other things it would tend to reduce exposure via hospitals to people who now put off preventive medical workups or elective surgeries out of fear they'll contact covid that way.

EDIT:   J&J stock had dropped some on the news...  so the markets are as skeptical as may be justified.  I have no dog in that fight,  only looking for the bright side for folks in rural areas less likely to encounter it to begin with but more inconvenienced by a double-dose requirement.


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> I'm hoping the FDA feels like making the effort it should make before it grants the authorization.
> 
> Still, zero deaths and 85% not landing in hospital sounds promising.  As for the efficacy, 66% is better than flu vaccines some years, and if the J&J one is as good as its trials indicate on preventing need for hospitalization,  that's a plus.   Among other things it would tend to reduce exposure via hospitals to people who now put off preventive medical workups or elective surgeries out of fear they'll contact covid that way.
> 
> EDIT:   J&J stock had dropped some on the news...  so the markets are as skeptical as may be justified.  I have no dog in that fight,  only looking for the bright side for folks in rural areas less likely to encounter it to begin with but more inconvenienced by a double-dose requirement.



The issue is that the statistical (and clinical) significance really depends on the number of events, which depends on COVID incidence and time. 

So if they had 100 cases of COVID, the results aren't gonna be very significant statistically. 



lizkat said:


> I'm hoping the FDA feels like making the effort it should make before it grants the authorization.



Sure; they get paid the "big bucks" to do it (~165K/yr, which is like 50% of industry...). We're desperate so I suspect the thresholds are low for now as long as safety is confirmed.


----------



## User.45

Bill Maher promoting that COVID was produced in a lab?! WTF. The guy has been really underwhelming when it came to medical issues and now he's going down the deep end. He invited an evolutionary biologist couple with a podcast (Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying) who claimed that SARS-CoV-2 is 90% likely to have come from a lab?! Who are these people?! I looked them up on google scholar...Let's just say that they really lack the academic acumen for me to consider them credible. I mean looking into controversial stuff is fine, even desired, but that shit has to be backed up by data beyond "There's a coronavirus research lab in Wuhan". Argh. I think I'm done with this show.


----------



## JayMysteri0

There will be hucksters


> In Philadelphia, A Scandal Erupts Over Vaccination Startup Led By 22-Year-Old
> 
> 
> City officials gave coronavirus vaccines to Philly Fighting Covid, whose brash CEO had no health care experience. After a WHYY investigation, the city cut ties with the group over alleged misconduct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org





> "There was literally 85-year-olds, 95-year-old people standing there, with printed appointment confirmations saying, 'I don't understand why I can't get vaccinated,' " Horn recalled.
> 
> On Jan. 23, volunteer nurse Katrina Lipinksi was helping at one of Philly Fighting Covid's vaccination events. She said that about half an hour before the event's scheduled end, staffers started telling volunteers and other workers to call anyone they knew to come in for a shot because there were going to be extras.
> 
> Then she saw Doroshin grab a handful of vaccines and stuff them in his bag, along with the corresponding CDC vaccination record cards.
> 
> "The idea of somebody who's not a licensed health care professional vaccinating their own friend, with or without observation period, that certainly was not the right thing to do," Lipinksi told WHYY.
> 
> Doroshin initially denied Lipinski's account but eventually admitted he took doses home during a Jan. 28 interview on NBC's _Today_ show. The following day at a press conference, he said he had vaccinated his girlfriend, but no one else. He did not explain how Philly Fighting Covid ended up with extra doses after it turned away people, including seniors, who were in line waiting for the vaccine that same day.
> 
> The city cut ties with Philly Fighting Covid on Jan. 25, citing the company''s abandonment of its testing work and the company's new privacy policy, which would have allowed it to sell patient data.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> There will be hucksters



It's pretty hilariously awful. There were something on the news about use the right needle type you can get an extra dose out of each vile. Too lazy to verify, but sounds legit.


----------



## JayMysteri0

P_X said:


> It's pretty hilariously awful. There were something on the news about use the right needle type you can get an extra dose out of each vile. Too lazy to verify, but sounds legit.



Check PRSI, they covered that.  I think Pshfud even weighed in with a lengthy reply.  But there is some truth to it, but I think it's based on how the dosage is applied



> Pfizer Will Ship Fewer Vaccine Vials to Account for ‘Extra’ Doses (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> After the surprise discovery of an extra dose in every vial, Pfizer executives successfully lobbied the F.D.A. to change the vaccine’s formal authorization language. The company charges by the dose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


----------



## lizkat

P_X said:


> The issue is that the statistical (and clinical) significance really depends on the number of events, which depends on COVID incidence and time.
> 
> So if they had 100 cases of COVID, the results aren't gonna be very significant statistically.
> 
> 
> Sure; they get paid the "big bucks" to do it (~165K/yr, which is like 50% of industry...). We're desperate so I suspect the thresholds are low for now as long as safety is confirmed.





On balance if the FDA approves the J&J covid vaccine,  then living in this rural area with somewhat less chance of covid infection to begin with,  I'll be happy to take that single dose variant,  instead of waiting to get onto the two-appointment lists for the Moderna or Pfizer ones with higher expected general efficacy. 

A vaccine that tests 85% or better against incidence of covid *severe enough* to land one in hospital or die from it  --in a trial involving 45k individuals with essentially no hospitalizations and zero deaths--  seems "at least" as good to me as the flu shots I routinely get. And those flu vaccines are sometimes a bit off the mark anyway due to mutations, and so end up with only 40-50% efficacy against some kind of flu over winter if one is out and about in the general population. 

Of course I've no clue if I have just been "lucky".  And sure, if there were only 100 actual cases of covid in that entire study done by J&J then the entire selection of 45k individuals was pretty lucky too, eh?   But one of the reasons they altered their original plan and reduced the trial pop to 40k from 60k was that the incidence of covid in the USA has been so high as to warrant significance of results in a smaller test group.  It's not like we are anywhere near herd immunity or high levels of vaccination yet, so that was not a factor when J&J ran their test either.   The 40k trial group they aimed for was the same size as the Pfizer one and larger than than run by Moderna.


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> On balance if the FDA approves the J&J covid vaccine,  then living in this rural area with somewhat less chance of covid infection to begin with,  I'll be happy to take that single dose variant,  instead of waiting to get onto the two-appointment lists for the Moderna or Pfizer ones with higher expected general efficacy.
> 
> A vaccine that tests 85% or better against incidence of covid *severe enough* to land one in hospital or die from it  --in a trial involving 45k individuals with essentially no hospitalizations and zero deaths--  seems "at least" as good to me as the flu shots I routinely get. And those flu vaccines are sometimes a bit off the mark anyway due to mutations, and so end up with only 40-50% efficacy against some kind of flu over winter if one is out and about in the general population.
> 
> Of course I've no clue if I have just been "lucky".  And sure, if there were only 100 actual cases of covid in that entire study done by J&J then the entire selection of 45k individuals was pretty lucky too, eh?   But one of the reasons they altered their original plan and reduced the trial pop to 40k from 60k was that the incidence of covid in the USA has been so high as to warrant significance of results in a smaller test group.  It's not like we are anywhere near herd immunity or high levels of vaccination yet, so that was not a factor when J&J ran their test either.   The 40k trial group they aimed for was the same size as the Pfizer one and larger than than run by Moderna.



I largely made the 100 cases up....but the order of magnitude was based on the Moderna data.... The order of magnitude wasn't off:


> *The interim analysis assessed 468 cases of symptomatic COVID-19 among *44,325 adult volunteers in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Mexico, Peru, South Africa, and the United States. The investigational vaccine was reportedly 66% effective at preventing the study’s combined endpoints of moderate and severe COVID-19 at 28 days post-vaccination among all volunteers, including those infected with an emerging viral variant. Moderate COVID-19 was defined as laboratory-confirmed SARS-CoV-2 plus either one of the following: evidence of pneumonia; deep vein thrombosis; difficulty breathing; abnormal oxygen saturation or a respiratory rate equal to or greater than 20; or two or more signs or symptoms suggestive of COVID-19, such as cough, sore throat, fever or chills. Severe COVID-19 was defined as laboratory-confirmed SARS-CoV-2 plus evidence of clinical signs at rest indicative of severe systemic illness, respiratory failure, shock, significant organ dysfunction, hospital intensive care unit admission or death.
> 
> Geographically, the level of protection for the combined endpoints of moderate and severe disease varied: 72% in the United States; 66% in Latin American countries; and 57% in South Africa, 28 days post-vaccination. The investigational vaccine was reportedly 85% effective in preventing severe/critical COVID-19 across all geographical regions. No deaths related to COVID-19 were reported in the vaccine group, while 5 deaths in the placebo group were related to COVID-19. Overall, there were 16 deaths in the placebo group, and 3 deaths in the vaccine group.




So they had 0 deaths vs. the expected 3 deaths. This isn't going to reach statistical significance at all. And I didn't even consider matching the two groups' risk of death based on demographic factors. So much of my suspicions are corroborated here. 









						Janssen Investigational COVID-19 Vaccine: Interim Analysis of Phase 3 Clinical Data Released
					

Single dose vaccine appears to be safe and effective at preventing moderate and severe COVID-19 in adults.




					www.nih.gov


----------



## lizkat

Leaving the death stats out of it then:   it was said to be 67% effective against moderate or severe instances, so I'll certainly take it if they bring it here to the boondocks and there's still no readily available Moderna or Pfizer.

So far in this rural county of only 43k people, we have had about 1100 cases and about 30 deaths.   There are hardly any retail jobs here, so most of the quarantine requests and instances of illness seem to be via folks bringing it back from more populated counties where they work or shop. 

The longer the USA goes without having confidence of herd immunity,  the more weary people get of wearing masks "because America" ...so for the near term I wouldn't expect the risk to decrease that someone brings covid over here from the grocery stores in the next county over.  Whatever pops up here first in the way of a vaccine at my local clinic is what I'll go for.


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> Leaving the death stats out of it then:   it was said to be 67% effective against moderate or severe instances, so I'll certainly take it if they bring it here to the boondocks and there's still no readily available Moderna or Pfizer.
> 
> So far in this rural county of only 43k people, we have had about 1100 cases and about 30 deaths.   There are hardly any retail jobs here, so most of the quarantine requests and instances of illness seem to be via folks bringing it back from more populated counties where they work or shop.
> 
> The longer the USA goes without having confidence of herd immunity,  the more weary people get of wearing masks "because America" ...so for the near term I wouldn't expect the risk to decrease that someone brings covid over here from the grocery stores in the next county over.  Whatever pops up here first in the way of a vaccine at my local clinic is what I'll go for.



Agree, any safe vaccine is better than COVID. All of the vaccines are safe, so there's nothing to lose. We can get picky and check antibodies after 200M got vaccinated. You can always get a better one later if needed. I'm just saying that the sample sizes aren't there (yet) to draw major  conclusions.

I just hate the stock fluffing announcements.


----------



## Eric

Some good news starting to appear.









						Covid vaccines are slowing spread of virus already, early study shows
					

Vaccination is already easing Britain’s Covid epidemic with early data showing it is definitely reducing cases. Research due to be published within days will




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




Also, the top comment


> The hospital I work for just went a full week with no new COVID cases among staff for the first time since Feb 2020. Very cool to see the vaccine in action. Edit: This is with 75% of employees having received one dose and 65% having received both doses. There are about 7k employees


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1355937620077887492/


----------



## Alli

A FB friend had Covid back in the spring. Nonetheless, she had the first dose of the vaccine on Thursday. On Friday, she was so sick she couldn’t get out of bed. Doctors were considering admitting her and have told her she is NOT to get the second dose.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1355937620077887492/



In order for you to interpret this, you need to know the distribution of people in the first round of people eligible. Jt will probably look worse once you've done that but still.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> In order for you to interpret this, you need to know the distribution of people in the first round of people eligible. Jt will probably look worse once you've done that but still.



I’ve been reading for months that “essential workers” are comprised mostly of people belonging to minority groups. So shouldn’t the essential workers be the first to get vaccinated?

Perhaps the essential workers are a small percentage of those who got the vaccine. Perhaps there is some reluctance to get the vaccine among minority groups. But even with that, these numbers look really bad.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I’ve been reading for months that “essential workers” are comprised mostly of people belonging to minority groups. So shouldn’t the essential workers be the first to get vaccinated?
> 
> Perhaps the essential workers are a small percentage of those who got the vaccine. Perhaps there is some reluctance to get the vaccine among minority groups. But even with that, these numbers look really bad.



Depends. Healthcare workers are the first group everywhere, which explains overrepresentation of asians for example. So again, too little data to draw conclusions.


----------



## Clix Pix

Thinking back on the day I went for my first vaccination jab, it seems to me that when I was spending some time in the waiting room afterward, waiting out the fifteen-minute making-sure-everything's-ok period, that while I noticed that most of the others in the room were white-or-grey-haired, clearly older like myself, and that there were a couple of younger people there, at the time it really didn't register with me that everyone was White and that I should have been wondering why.  Yeah, wait a minute!  There are plenty of Black, Hispanic, Asian and other people in my community who are within my age cohort, too.  Where were they?  I really hope that they did get vaccinated that particular week or the following week or have plans to be vaccinated very soon.


----------



## Clix Pix

Bingo, the penny has dropped for me vis-a-vis the Moderna vaccination and the impact my first dose has had on me.   I'd already begun to wonder but then someone on MR posted a link to an article which had a sentence that absolutely leaped out at me:

_“Let’s spray the area down with antiviral cytokines, which also happen to be inflammatory.”_

BINGO!!!! OK, now I have an explanation for a couple of things which I have noticed since I got the first dose of Moderna on January 21st..... The first couple of days, a sore arm at the injection site area, not unexpected. Felt fine otherwise. A day or so after that a period of runny nose and typical symptoms that I usually have when I'm having an allergic response in the Spring to pollen. Uh, OK.....that went away fairly quickly. Next up: a cold sore near my nose, when I definitely have not had a cold or any other illness for quite a long time, and the appearance of a second one a day or two later near my lower lip...... Ehhhhh..... I was beginning to wonder if this was all related somehow to that Moderna injection. Weird, but possible.....

Then a couple of days ago out of seemingly nowhere came the distinctly unpleasant surprise of rather intense lower back pain as well as pain radiating halfway down my legs, similar to sciatic pain which I experienced many years ago when having a disk herniation at L-5/S1. Aggggh...... NOT so cool. WTH?!!! In the many years since my surgery for that herniated disk I've experienced minor issues and even some numbness of a couple of toes on the left foot, the side which was affected, and that is not unusual. Apart from occasional twinges of pain reminiscent of that intense pain at the time of the herniation and an occasional nighttime leg cramp or two, nothing else particularly disturbing. Nothing like THIS!

THIS, though, was unusual and definitely disturbing!!! WHOA!!! Rapid onset is an index of suspicion from the get-go, though. I went to bed feeling perfectly fine. I hadn't done anything unusual, I hadn't fallen, I hadn't stressed myself doing strenuous exercises or moving furniture around, but, wow. This situation was sudden. Two mornings ago I arose from bed with this not-so-delightful surprise, barely could get out of bed, and finally yesterday resorted to taking a couple of Aleve when I was feeling extreme discomfort when sitting, when rising from a sitting position, when walking, when lying down, when doing anything. Walking did seem to help but that began to happen only after a while. Bedtime the second night seemed a little easier, I was able to find a couple of comfortable positions and didn't have that intense burning pain which signaled that this was nerve-related. At first I thought, "OK, I've been sitting too much, I've been doing too much on the computer and because it's cold outside haven't been doing my usual walks around the neighborhood...."

Today things have been much more comfortable and though the day started out with pain and discomfort as time went on I noticed that the severity of discomfort had lessened and that my customary flexibility seemed to be gradually returning. In mid-afternoon I was able to do normal activities such as preparing loads of laundry for the machines and tossing them into first the washer and then the dryer without much of a problem. Walking, bending, doing normal movements seem to feel normal or close to it again.

Now I'm suspecting that in fact all of these odd things are indeed my body's response to my first dose of Moderna. The key word here for me is _"inflammation"_, of course, especially when it comes to the issues with my lumbar spine since that of course does involve the nervous system.   Exactly what I was feeling back then, but at the same time in a different way than ever before.  Pain but not as excruciating or disabling as that which I had experienced with the herniated disk.      

Bingo! Now this constellation of particular symptoms and occurrences over the past little while makes perfect sense to me. Not fun. Now I'm wondering what the heck I'll be going through after I've had that second dose of Moderna later this month......   WOW!!

In spite of everything this still is better than dealing with COVID-19.....


----------



## User.45

Clix Pix said:


> Bingo, the penny has dropped for me vis-a-vis the Moderna vaccination and the impact my first dose has had on me.   I'd already begun to wonder but then someone on MR posted a link to an article which had a sentence that absolutely leaped out at me:
> 
> _“Let’s spray the area down with antiviral cytokines, which also happen to be inflammatory.”_
> 
> BINGO!!!! OK, now I have an explanation for a couple of things which I have noticed since I got the first dose of Moderna on January 21st..... The first couple of days, a sore arm at the injection site area, not unexpected. Felt fine otherwise. A day or so after that a period of runny nose and typical symptoms that I usually have when I'm having an allergic response in the Spring to pollen. Uh, OK.....that went away fairly quickly. Next up: a cold sore near my nose, when I definitely have not had a cold or any other illness for quite a long time, and the appearance of a second one a day or two later near my lower lip...... Ehhhhh..... I was beginning to wonder if this was all related somehow to that Moderna injection. Weird, but possible.....
> 
> Then a couple of days ago out of seemingly nowhere came the distinctly unpleasant surprise of rather intense lower back pain as well as pain radiating halfway down my legs, similar to sciatic pain which I experienced many years ago when having a disk herniation at L-5/S1. Aggggh...... NOT so cool. WTH?!!! In the many years since my surgery for that herniated disk I've experienced minor issues and even some numbness of a couple of toes on the left foot, the side which was affected, and that is not unusual. Apart from occasional twinges of pain reminiscent of that intense pain at the time of the herniation and an occasional nighttime leg cramp or two, nothing else particularly disturbing. Nothing like THIS!
> 
> THIS, though, was unusual and definitely disturbing!!! WHOA!!! Rapid onset is an index of suspicion from the get-go, though. I went to bed feeling perfectly fine. I hadn't done anything unusual, I hadn't fallen, I hadn't stressed myself doing strenuous exercises or moving furniture around, but, wow. This situation was sudden. Two mornings ago I arose from bed with this not-so-delightful surprise, barely could get out of bed, and finally yesterday resorted to taking a couple of Aleve when I was feeling extreme discomfort when sitting, when rising from a sitting position, when walking, when lying down, when doing anything. Walking did seem to help but that began to happen only after a while. Bedtime the second night seemed a little easier, I was able to find a couple of comfortable positions and didn't have that intense burning pain which signaled that this was nerve-related. At first I thought, "OK, I've been sitting too much, I've been doing too much on the computer and because it's cold outside haven't been doing my usual walks around the neighborhood...."
> 
> Today things have been much more comfortable and though the day started out with pain and discomfort as time went on I noticed that the severity of discomfort had lessened and that my customary flexibility seemed to be gradually returning. In mid-afternoon I was able to do normal activities such as preparing loads of laundry for the machines and tossing them into first the washer and then the dryer without much of a problem. Walking, bending, doing normal movements seem to feel normal or close to it again.
> 
> Now I'm suspecting that in fact all of these odd things are indeed my body's response to my first dose of Moderna. The key word here for me is _"inflammation"_, of course, especially when it comes to the issues with my lumbar spine since that of course does involve the nervous system.   Exactly what I was feeling back then, but at the same time in a different way than ever before.  Pain but not as excruciating or disabling as that which I had experienced with the herniated disk.
> 
> Bingo! Now this constellation of particular symptoms and occurrences over the past little while makes perfect sense to me. Not fun. Now I'm wondering what the heck I'll be going through after I've had that second dose of Moderna later this month......   WOW!!
> 
> In spite of everything this still is better than dealing with COVID-19.....



Yup. These vaccines seem to exacerbate ongoing inflammation a little more than usual. With the second dose of Pfizer's I took 1000mg acetaminophen every 8H and I was still off cognitively for 2 days. One night I couldn't sleep because of knee pain (there's nothing wrong structurally wrong my knee AFAIK). So this large-joint pain thing is along similar lines as your L5-S1 radiculopathy. You probably had some soft tissue swelling there before, but with all the cytokines floating around it got exacerbated, had swollen a little and boom radiculopathy symptoms re-emerged. Hopefully (if you can tolerate it and have OK liver function / no contraindication), pre-emptive use of tylenol can ease things.


----------



## Alli

Great. Now y’all have me stressing over how the vaccine will affect my lymphedema. Thanks.

Meanwhile my mother had her second jab yesterday and was fine when I spoke to her last night. My husband is scheduled for his first dose in two weeks. I figure I’m still a month out.


----------



## User.45

Alli said:


> Great. Now y’all have me stressing over how the vaccine will affect my lymphedema. Thanks.



It shouldn't. That's a mechanical issue.


----------



## shadow puppet

P_X said:


> Yup. These vaccines seem to exacerbate ongoing inflammation a little more than usual. With the second dose of Pfizer's I took 1000mg acetaminophen every 8H and I was still off cognitively for 2 days. One night I couldn't sleep because of knee pain (there's nothing wrong structurally wrong my knee AFAIK). So this large-joint pain thing is along similar lines as your L5-S1 radiculopathy. You probably had some soft tissue swelling there before, but with all the cytokines floating around it got exacerbated, had swollen a little and boom radiculopathy symptoms re-emerged. Hopefully (if you can tolerate it and have OK liver function / no contraindication), pre-emptive use of tylenol can ease things.



Thanks for the feedback.  Now I'm getting concerned.  I have, among a newly diagnosed mitral valve prolapse situation (much improved after having 2 mitra clips added Mid December), chronic psoriatic arthritis.  17 joints affected and some pretty badly.  Inflammation is not my friend.

I'm also a tad worried I won't be allowed to have my 2nd vaccine as some now believe if you've have Covid (as I have although a mild case), you may only need just one vaccine.  Per the news I've watched, medical professionals just don't know for sure as to the veracity of this suspicion.  I was given monoclonal antibodies which should help but I don't think they work against the South African strain.

I really hate this freaking virus.


----------



## Clix Pix

P_X said:


> Yup. These vaccines seem to exacerbate ongoing inflammation a little more than usual. With the second dose of Pfizer's I took 1000mg acetaminophen every 8H and I was still off cognitively for 2 days. One night I couldn't sleep because of knee pain (there's nothing wrong structurally wrong my knee AFAIK). So this large-joint pain thing is along similar lines as your L5-S1 radiculopathy. You probably had some soft tissue swelling there before, but with all the cytokines floating around it got exacerbated, had swollen a little and boom radiculopathy symptoms re-emerged. Hopefully (if you can tolerate it and have OK liver function / no contraindication), pre-emptive use of tylenol can ease things.



Thanks!  Yes, this is pretty much the conclusion I arrived at, too, since through the years until now I've had some twinges now-and-then and since I am aging ( will be 76 in another month or so) and it was back in 1994 that I had the herniation at L5/S1 and subsequent surgery, it wouldn't be unlikely that from time to time there would be some soft tissue swelling around the area or around L4 if it is slowly deteriorating, which it well might be.   The radiculopathy symptoms are unmistakable, but feel somewhat different than they did back when I actually experienced the herniation.  Thankfully, not nearly as bad this time!

Today does feel significantly better than a couple of days ago and somewhat better than yesterday, with walking and some gentle exercises so I think it'll just take some time to all settle down again..... and I've got Aleve at the ready if I feel I need it.   I have the strong suspicion that this will probably be just nicely back to normal again when wham, I get the second dose and this starts up all over!   At least I'll be prepared......  I hope!

Actually, prior to getting the second dose I will discuss with the nurse the various responses/reactions I've had with the first dose, and also if this current back situation doesn't seem to completely clear up within a reasonable amount of time I will be also getting in touch with the doctor, too.


----------



## Alli

P_X said:


> It shouldn't. That's a mechanical issue.



Mechanical?


----------



## JayMysteri0

Good morning.



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1357185020792823810/


----------



## Alli

JayMysteri0 said:


> Good morning.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1357185020792823810/



If you're going to break the mask/social distancing mandates, go big.


----------



## fooferdoggie

JayMysteri0 said:


> Good morning.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1357185020792823810/



well hope they were wearing masks and washed their hands between partners


----------



## lizkat

On the bright side...   after a woman's dreadful experience of covid

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1357546995020357632/


----------



## Pumbaa

fooferdoggie said:


> well hope they were wearing masks and washed their hands between partners



This is where the Furry community would be light-years ahead of everyone else.


----------



## User.45

Good news, we are on a pretty good track with the vaccinations:









If we can reach 2M/d consistently, we'll have a shot to achieve herd immunity by the summer. Even if new strains may impact the efficacy, I suspect the shot will provide some protection against those too, so now we have a chance to have a good summer.


----------



## Clix Pix

EXCELLENT news!!!!   A friend who lives in a suburb of Chicago emailed me yesterday that she was finally able to get her first dose -- she is my age and had been checking everywhere to no avail, but then her doctor's office contacted her with information about signing up through their medical group practice and she immediately did so and was rewarded on Wednesday with that first jab.   She was especially eager to do this and get going with the vaccination process because she has recently retired and wanted to begin preparing her house for the market, sell it and move closer to one of her daughters and grandchildren.   Now the major barrier, the lack of vaccination, has been cleared and she's halfway there.  She'll get the second dose in early March and by then should have the house ready to go on the market.


----------



## DT

Holy F-ing S ...

Really?









						Have Apple Stores gone insane?
					

Now that we know that COVID-19 produces a sickness with a mortality lower than a severe flu and that masks don’t accomplish what all the mask mandates say they do, Apple has gone completely nuts at the Indianapolis store.    What you are witnessing is the complete closure of the showroom...




					forums.macrumors.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

DT said:


> Holy F-ing S ...
> 
> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have Apple Stores gone insane?
> 
> 
> Now that we know that COVID-19 produces a sickness with a mortality lower than a severe flu and that masks don’t accomplish what all the mask mandates say they do, Apple has gone completely nuts at the Indianapolis store.    What you are witnessing is the complete closure of the showroom...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> forums.macrumors.com



I already wondered that


> https://talkedabout.com/threads/republicans-on-prsi-the-real-snowflakes.752/post-29349


----------



## DT

Oh heck, didn't see that!


----------



## thekev

Alli said:


> Hail to Alabackwards.




and the hypnotoad..


----------



## User.45

thekev said:


> and the hypnotoad..



I find FTD's TL;DR comment hilarious: worrying about a mental health crisis The dude shouldn't, he's already in his own


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1358897921303846914/


----------



## fooferdoggie

so covid


----------



## User.45

fooferdoggie said:


> so covid
> View attachment 3409



With the strain described in South Africa it will be a super time crunch to get those doses in arms. Herd immunity may be around 60-70% for the original strain, but there's a good chance we'll have to hit north of 90% to get that level of coverage for the new variants...And the more time we allow the virus with partial population coverage the more chance and pressure we give it to mutate.


----------



## fooferdoggie

P_X said:


> With the strain described in South Africa it will be a super time crunch to get those doses in arms. Herd immunity may be around 60-70% for the original strain, but there's a good chance we'll have to hit north of 90% to get that level of coverage for the new variants...And the more time we allow the virus with partial population coverage the more chance and pressure we give it to mutate.



yep its crazy race for sure. but so many people wont get it thats going to be a problem


----------



## User.45

fooferdoggie said:


> yep its crazy race for sure. but so many people wont get it thats going to be a problem



I know... It's frustrating that my patients (all qualify through chronic health condition) have to seek out the vaccine manually. It should be really automatic.


----------



## User.45




----------



## Alli

Yesterday the Alabama Department of Public Health put out one of their regular statements on the state of vaccinations. SSDD But the comments on the statement were telling. While the majority of people were complaining about themselves or relatives with chronic conditions not being able to get the vaccine, there were plenty who said things like "well, you can have my dose cause I don't need anything for a hoax." I was stunned that there are still people out there who not only believe this, but are wiling to state it in public.


----------



## SuperMatt

Alli said:


> Yesterday the Alabama Department of Public Health put out one of their regular statements on the state of vaccinations. SSDD But the comments on the statement were telling. While the majority of people were complaining about themselves or relatives with chronic conditions not being able to get the vaccine, there were plenty who said things like "well, you can have my dose cause I don't need anything for a hoax." I was stunned that there are still people out there who not only believe this, but are wiling to state it in public.



I’m surprised too. Most of the people that said it was a hoax before changed their minds instantly when it was their turn for a vaccine. I didn’t realize there were actual true believers….


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I’m surprised too. Most of the people that said it was a hoax before changed their minds instantly when it was their turn for a vaccine. I didn’t realize there were actual true believers….



Facebook effect. In my country of origin, trust in vaccinations was well above 90% pre-COVID (never seen measles in my life...). Facebook bulshittery dropped that to ~60-70%. That said, I didn't worry about this until now because you can still hit 70-75% with exclusion of that probably 10% of crazies. Now, if we need like 90% coverage, it will be a different situation.


----------



## SuperMatt

Interesting take on the Super Bowl and COVID-19:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1358789532993388545/


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Interesting take on the Super Bowl and COVID-19:
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1358789532993388545/



Boys vs. men


----------



## User.45

For those who like this sort of discourse:




			https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2036242
		




> TO THE EDITOR​Table 1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Efficacy of BNT162b2 against Covid-19 According to Analysis Period.
> Polack et al. (Dec. 31)1 report a vaccine efficacy of 94.8% against Covid-19 after two doses of the messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine BNT162b2 (Pfizer–BioNTech). The authors also report a vaccine efficacy of 52.4% from after the first dose to before the second dose, but in their calculation, they included data that were collected during the first 2 weeks after the first dose, when immunity would have still been mounting.1We used documents submitted to the Food and Drug Administration2 to derive the vaccine efficacy beginning from 2 weeks after the first dose to before the second dose (Table 1). Even before the second dose, BNT162b2 was highly efficacious, with a vaccine efficacy of 92.6%, a finding similar to the first-dose efficacy of 92.1% reported for the mRNA-1273 vaccine (Moderna).3
> With such a highly protective first dose, the benefits derived from a scarce supply of vaccine could be maximized by deferring second doses until all priority group members are offered at least one dose. There may be uncertainty about the duration of protection with a single dose, but the administration of a second dose within 1 month after the first, as recommended, provides little added benefit in the short term, while high-risk persons who could have received a first dose with that vaccine supply are left completely unprotected. Given the current vaccine shortage, postponement of the second dose is a matter of national security that, if ignored, will certainly result in thousands of Covid-19–related hospitalizations and deaths this winter in the United States — hospitalizations and deaths that would have been prevented with a first dose of vaccine.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Are we going to need to start a 'Florida' thread?



> Florida Women Pose As 'Grannies' In Foiled Plot To Get 2nd COVID-19 Vaccine Doses
> 
> 
> The director of the Florida Department of Health in Orange County said the women disguised themselves with bonnets, gloves and glasses. It is not known how they managed to get their first doses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org






> Florida Commissioner Planned Covid-19 Vaccine Drive For Only the County's Wealthiest Residents
> 
> 
> On Thursday, a commissioner from Manatee County, Florida admitted to breaking the protocol for equitable covid-19 vaccine distribution by planning a vaccine drive where she only allowed residents from the two richest zip codes in the county to register and created a “VIP list” to allow her and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jezebel.com


----------



## Alli

JayMysteri0 said:


> Are we going to need to start a 'Florida' thread?



Their governor is a menace to the state.

Meanwhile to the west, AL and MS are playing vaccine games. Older folks and those with health risks in AL are traveling to MS to get vaccinated. At the same time, teachers in MS are coming to AL for their jabs. All because each state is doing its own thing.

While schools in Montgomery are back to distance only due to the number of cases, schools in the next county over are still open for business. A former colleague and her husband are both down with Covid now, thanks to the gift brought by one of her students. She's taking her twins to get tested this weekend cause she thinks they may both have it as well. Then there's her elderly father who lives in a basement apartment...he can no longer come upstairs due to the risk, but he may already have it anyway.

But the numbers are dropping. Gah!


----------



## User.45

Alli said:


> Their governor is a menace to the state.
> 
> Meanwhile to the west, AL and MS are playing vaccine games. Older folks and those with health risks in AL are traveling to MS to get vaccinated. At the same time, teachers in MS are coming to AL for their jabs. All because each state is doing its own thing.
> 
> While schools in Montgomery are back to distance only due to the number of cases, schools in the next county over are still open for business. A former colleague and her husband are both down with Covid now, thanks to the gift brought by one of her students. She's taking her twins to get tested this weekend cause she thinks they may both have it as well. Then there's her elderly father who lives in a basement apartment...he can no longer come upstairs due to the risk, but he may already have it anyway.
> 
> But the numbers are dropping. Gah!



I can't tell you how pissed I am about this. Wanna open schools? Start vaccinating teachers... Since school opening is critical this should be of critical priority...


----------



## Alli

One day later, my friend's father has been admitted to hospital with Covid and pneumonia.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Statistically speaking... WTF?!   
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1365089355535175686/


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Statistically speaking... WTF?!
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1365089355535175686/



We had a zoom meeting with our local community leaders, and one proposal came up, that churches could be serving as vaccination sites. Large enough space, the people can feel like this is a sort of community activity and churches tend to have transportation resources/infrastructure too. As the application in my state very much computer based, such efforts could help mitigate the disparities caused by lack of access to emails/smart phones/internet.


----------



## JayMysteri0

P_X said:


> We had a zoom meeting with our local community leaders, and one proposal came up, that churches could be serving as vaccination sites. Large enough space, the people can feel like this is a sort of community activity and churches tend to have transportation resources/infrastructure too. As the application in my state very much computer based, such efforts could help mitigate the disparities caused by lack of access to emails/smart phones/internet.



Provided it's in their community centers / sunday school halls type of places I can see it.  Such places are already used for free mobile testing, but I'd avoid the church space itself for a variety of reasons.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Provided it's in their community centers / sunday school halls type of places I can see it.  Such places are already used for free mobile testing, but I'd avoid the church space itself for a variety of reasons.



Agree.


----------



## Thomas Veil

P_X said:


> We had a zoom meeting with our local community leaders, and one proposal came up, that churches could be serving as vaccination sites. Large enough space, the people can feel like this is a sort of community activity and churches tend to have transportation resources/infrastructure too. As the application in my state very much computer based, such efforts could help mitigate the disparities caused by lack of access to emails/smart phones/internet.



I mentioned elsewhere that my mom got her second Covid shot (and is having _very_ few side effects, thank you!). What I didn't mention is that they are being creative around here with vaccination sites. Hers were done at a large, open, building out in the country. I mean, you could use it as a small airplane hangar. Perfect.



JayMysteri0 said:


> Statistically speaking... WTF?!
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1365089355535175686/



I also didn't mention that when I took my mom there, we were stopped at the parking lot entrance by a sheriff's deputy who had a list of who was supposed to be there. I really liked that they were screening for line-jumpers.

They also thought of everything else. We were early, so were asked to wait in the car until her exact appointment time. They had volunteers to direct everyone from one table to the next, and then to the seating area where you waited for 15 minutes in case of a bad reaction. They even had four or five places where they stationed _55 gallon drums of hand sanitizer_...with a small push-down squirt top, like a bottle of lotion. I can't tell you how funny that looks.

They even sent her on her way with a free box of surgical type masks. Kudos to them for the whole thing.


----------



## User.45

Thomas Veil said:


> I mentioned elsewhere that my mom got her second Covid shot (and is having _very_ few side effects, thank you!). What I didn't mention is that they are being creative around here with vaccination sites. Hers were done at a large, open, building out in the country. I mean, you could use it as a small airplane hangar. Perfect.
> 
> 
> I also didn't mention that when I took my mom there, we were stopped at the parking lot entrance by a sheriff's deputy who had a list of who was supposed to be there. I really liked that they were screening for line-jumpers.
> 
> They also thought of everything else. We were early, so were asked to wait in the car until her exact appointment time. They had volunteers to direct everyone from one table to the next, and then to the seating area where you waited for 15 minutes in case of a bad reaction. They even had four or five places where they stationed _55 gallon drums of hand sanitizer_...with a small push-down squirt top, like a bottle of lotion. I can't tell you how funny that looks.
> 
> They even sent her on her way with a free box of surgical type masks. Kudos to them for the whole thing.



Neat! My wife and I work in the same hospital system. She got her first shot in a sister hospital and I got it in the basement of the main one. It was night and day. Mine was super organized and smooth flowing I was out in 20 min; hers took like 2 hours and was chaos. They cleaned up their act for the second, but it shows it takes a little trial and error. The Sheriff deputy was likely there based on precedent...


----------



## User.45

This reminds me, I was shown the Flu and RSV (another respiratory bug) stats for this year. 
Our current infection control protocols essentially eradicated these. The differences compared to any previous years' are so striking you don't even need a statistical analysis to tell this is not a product of chance. This also tells you how much more infectious COVID is than the other bugs. This is also the anniversary of the lies about the Flu being worse.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1365917194555686913/


----------



## Alli

They’ve got the logistics down perfectly here, just not enough vaccine. When I took my husband for his first jab (second one is this week), we drove through a maze of barricades (in the parking lot of the Civic Center) to get to a tent where they checked to make sure you had an appointment. Then through another maze until we actually pulled into the floor of the center where cars were put in lines like families in a Disney ride. Once you got to where you were supposed to be in line they asked you to turn off your engine. Nurses manned each line and nobody got out of their cars at all. It was amazing. After the jab, we pulled into a new line to wait the 15 minutes for observation. We were in and out in less than 40 minutes.


----------



## SuperMatt

I have been wondering something about the vaccination effort. Yes, we want to be fair. Yes, we want to prioritize at-risk groups. However, the methods for a) identifying those who qualify and b) informing the qualified people and getting them the shots… don’t seem very efficient. I have to wonder if a simple first-come, first-served method would prevent a lot of the problems I have been reading about: rich white people stealing online codes meant for minorities, people without computer knowledge or without a computer not being able to sign up, doses going to waste because nobody showed up, etc.

I know we want to be fair and prioritize this for those who need it most, but it doesn’t look like the methods for doing so are working. Maybe the first-come, first-served would be worse. I just don’t know.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I have been wondering something about the vaccination effort. Yes, we want to be fair. Yes, we want to prioritize at-risk groups. However, the methods for a) identifying those who qualify and b) informing the qualified people and getting them the shots… don’t seem very efficient. I have to wonder if a simple first-come, first-served method would prevent a lot of the problems I have been reading about: rich white people stealing online codes meant for minorities, people without computer knowledge or without a computer not being able to sign up, doses going to waste because nobody showed up, etc.
> 
> I know we want to be fair and prioritize this for those who need it most, but it doesn’t look like the methods for doing so are working. Maybe the first-come, first-served would be worse. I just don’t know.



First come first served is a recipe for disaster really. But in my state when you are not in healthcare, getting a shot scheduled literally takes the same approach as you do to scoop up a PS5. We now in the era of vaccine scalping, lol.

A partial  first come first serve roll out could work though, like let's say J&J's shots that are easy to store could be given in that fashion. At the end of the day gettin 40% vaccinated with the best vaccines is still going to be significantly worse for everyone, than having 80% vaccinated with any safe vaccine available.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> First come first served is a recipe for disaster really. But in my state when you are not in healthcare, getting a shot scheduled literally takes the same approach as you do to scoop up a PS5. We now in the era of vaccine scalping, lol.
> 
> A partial  first come first serve roll out could work though, like let's say J&J's shots that are easy to store could be given in that fashion. At the end of the day gettin 40% vaccinated with the best vaccines is still going to be significantly worse for everyone, than having 80% vaccinated with any safe vaccine available.



I seem to recall a doctor from the WHO stating that herd immunity happens at about 70-80% immunity? So it seems to me that getting as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible is the fastest way to stop the virus.

We make it hard for people to vote, they don’t vote. We make it hard to apply for government benefits, people don’t bother. Seems like we‘re making it hard for people to get vaccinated, and they’re just not getting the shots. Hopefully this turns around quickly with a 3rd vaccine available.


----------



## JayMysteri0

SuperMatt said:


> I seem to recall a doctor from the WHO stating that herd immunity happens at about 70-80% immunity? So it seems to me that getting as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible is the fastest way to stop the virus.
> 
> We make it hard for people to vote, they don’t vote. We make it hard to apply for government benefits, people don’t bother. Seems like we‘re making it hard for people to get vaccinated, and they’re just not getting the shots. Hopefully this turns around quickly with a 3rd vaccine available.



I think as we've seen in the likes of NY & Florida though, the people who are skipping the line would be considered by their own denials the least vulnerable.  In our run up to get to a 70 or 80% how much of the most vulnerable would suffer & die first?

The difficulty in signing up is no joke.

My mother is elderly, blind & tech phobic.  There is NO way she could have signed up for the vaccine on her own, and even then by the time I did she is waiting until next month I think.  I don't qualify until summer I think, and I help take care of her.  She's had the virus once that she only found out while going for a test for something else.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I seem to recall a doctor from the WHO stating that herd immunity happens at about 70-80% immunity? So it seems to me that getting as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible is the fastest way to stop the virus.
> 
> We make it hard for people to vote, they don’t vote. We make it hard to apply for government benefits, people don’t bother. Seems like we‘re making it hard for people to get vaccinated, and they’re just not getting the shots. Hopefully this turns around quickly with a 3rd vaccine available.





JayMysteri0 said:


> I think as we've seen in the likes of NY & Florida though, the people who are skipping the line would be considered by their own denials the least vulnerable.  In our run up to get to a 70 or 80% how much of the most vulnerable would suffer & die first?
> 
> The difficulty in signing up is no joke.
> 
> My mother is elderly, blind & tech phobic.  There is NO way she could have signed up for the vaccine on her own, and even then by the time I did she is waiting until next month I think.  I don't qualify until summer I think, and I help take care of her.  She's had the virus once that she only found out while going for a test for something else.



Yup general estimate is 60-80% depending on modifying factors, like previous exposure/cellular immunity, etc. Fauci pushed the bar higher, like +90% just because new strains may lower the efficacy of the vaccines. 

Nursing home deaths are already plummeting where NH residents are vaccinated. You can see maaaajor declines in deaths by targeting the vulnerable... For example if 80% of the deaths come from 20% of the population, vaccinating that 20% quickly can have a highly amplified impact on deaths.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> Yup general estimate is 60-80% depending on modifying factors, like previous exposure/cellular immunity, etc. Fauci pushed the bar higher, like +90% just because new strains may lower the efficacy of the vaccines.
> 
> Nursing home deaths are already plummeting where NH residents are vaccinated. You can see maaaajor declines in deaths by targeting the vulnerable... For example if 80% of the deaths come from 20% of the population, vaccinating that 20% quickly can have a highly amplified impact on deaths.



They should be taking vaccines into nursing homes with no sign-ups needed… which I assume they are? Problem is reaching older folks who stay at home with either family checking in on them occasionally, or meals-on-wheels, etc. I should read more about this. It seems like coordinating with something like meals-on-wheels or any other service that reaches the elderly directly is a good choice. I saw Biden talk about going to black churches to distribute the vaccine. This makes sense - reach people who need it the most where you know they will be already.

A website for signing up? You will definitely get well-off, younger people first.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> They should be taking vaccines into nursing homes with no sign-ups needed… which I assume they are? Problem is reaching older folks who stay at home with either family checking in on them occasionally, or meals-on-wheels, etc. I should read more about this. It seems like coordinating with something like meals-on-wheels or any other service that reaches the elderly directly is a good choice. I saw Biden talk about going to black churches to distribute the vaccine. This makes sense - reach people who need it the most where you know they will be already.
> 
> A website for signing up? You will definitely get well-off, younger people first.



I know someone in their 70s who got it through their daughter setting up a notification bot when the website changes... So yeah, it's clear there are going to be huge tech and generational disparities.


----------



## Eric

As I’m working I saw a car with 4 younger hispanic people in it get out with a bunch of cleaning supplies and were let into the house across the street, no masks worn by any of them. Vaccines are still very hard to come by here in CA, the chances they got one are next to nothing. My guess is things will spike again before we're able to get a handle on this because in general people are idiots.


----------



## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> As I’m working I saw a car with 4 younger hispanic people in it get out with a bunch of cleaning supplies and were let into the house across the street, no masks worn by any of them. Vaccines are still very hard to come by here in CA, the chances they got one are next to nothing. My guess is things will spike again before we're able to get a handle on this because in general people are idiots.



I suspect we are ahead of another shitshow. There are countries in europe that face another wave with doubled hospitalization rate relative to the number of cases. Since I think that behavior changes gradually, the best explanation is one of the new variants entering. We are already blunting that with vaccination (less likely but possible), or we'll have a shitty spring too...


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> I suspect we are ahead of another shitshow. There are countries in europe that face another wave with doubled hospitalization rate relative to the number of cases. Since I think that behavior changes gradually, the best explanation is one of the new variants entering. We are already blunting that with vaccination (less likely but possible), or we'll have a shitty spring too...



I get that I'm hyper-sensitive about this but at the same time we've been doing all the right things, never going out, always wearing masks, etc. and it feels like a slap in the face by those who put everyone at risk because they can't be troubled to take such basic steps to prevent the spread. We're our own worst enemies.


----------



## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> I get that I'm hyper-sensitive about this but at the same time we've been doing all the right things, never going out, always wearing masks, etc. and it feels like a slap in the face by those who put everyone at risk because they can't be troubled to take such basic steps to prevent the spread. We're our own worst enemies.



Agree, Eric. I think the most telling is that from all the people in my extended family and friends and colleagues, the only 2 got COVID without engaging in risky behavior*, and both of them are nursing home residents. I literally have ZERO person I'm aware who got COVID in my work circle, even though some of them volunteered at COVID units. So yes...precautions really do work. 

*One of my best friends from medschool went to a fucking wedding in the middle of an uptick of cases, then they coyly described how they've given infusions to their parents at home when they got it (not in the USA).


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> Agree, Eric. I think the most telling is that from all the people in my extended family and friends and colleagues, the only 2 got COVID without engaging in risky behavior*, and both of them are nursing home residents. I literally have ZERO person I'm aware who got COVID in my work circle, even though some of them volunteered at COVID units. So yes...precautions really do work.
> 
> *One of my best friends from medschool went to a fucking wedding in the middle of an uptick of cases, then they coyly described how they've given infusions to their parents at home when they got it (not in the USA).



Agreed, we now know that these basic preventative measurers work but what can you do? Gotta wonder if walking around without pants on and pissing all over everyone would offend these people, may as well see where they draw the line.


----------



## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> Agreed, we now know that these basic preventative measurers work but what can you do? Gotta wonder if walking around without pants on and pissing all over everyone would offend these people, may as well see where they draw the line.



What I do with my 3-year-old is instead of explaining a complex concept of dirty, I just tell her that stuff are poopy. As most pathogens we worry about are feco-oral (pre-covid) this isn't entirely off. I was hoping for people to develop a similar sort of shame for not following COVID hygiene as people feel if they don't wash their hands after pooping, but honestly, I'm starting to think a lot of people actually don't wash their hands after pooping either. :/


----------



## fooferdoggie

P_X said:


> What I do with my 3-year-old is instead of explaining a complex concept of dirty, I just tell her that stuff are poopy. As most pathogens we worry about are feco-oral (pre-covid) this isn't entirely off. I was hoping for people to develop a similar sort of shame for not following COVID hygiene as people feel if they don't wash their hands after pooping, but honestly, I'm starting to think a lot of people actually don't wash their hands after pooping either. :/



I don't but I use a bidet (G)


----------



## Clix Pix

I have found it rather disturbing in a public restroom to observe just how many women do NOT wash their hands after using the facilities....  Now, of course, since the onset of the pandemic I haven't been in that many public restrooms for quite a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are still those who use the facilities and immediately go right back out the door, skipping the whole hygiene thing altogether.  UGH!!! Shudder......


----------



## User.45

Clix Pix said:


> I have found it rather disturbing in a public restroom to observe just how many women do NOT wash their hands after using the facilities....  Now, of course, since the onset of the pandemic I haven't been in that many public restrooms for quite a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are still those who use the facilities and immediately go right back out the door, skipping the whole hygiene thing altogether.  UGH!!! Shudder......



My wife and I always chuckle about female restrooms. People argue about which restroom trans people should use as ""some pervs will use it an excuse to creep in the women's restroom"", but based on the stuff my wife tells me, the boys' room sounds like a much more worthy territory to fight for


----------



## Alli

Clix Pix said:


> I have found it rather disturbing in a public restroom to observe just how many women do NOT wash their hands after using the facilities....  Now, of course, since the onset of the pandemic I haven't been in that many public restrooms for quite a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are still those who use the facilities and immediately go right back out the door, skipping the whole hygiene thing altogether.  UGH!!! Shudder......



The biggest reason to follow those hygiene procedures in a public restroom is because of the other people using those facilities.


----------



## Thomas Veil

With Gregg Abbott and other goobernatorial idiots filling the last 24 hours with bad news, I thought these might lighten up the thread a bit.








​


----------



## Thomas Veil

Why don’t we just call this what it is: a Pro-Covid Rally.



> About 100 demonstrators burned masks outside Idaho's Capitol in Boise on Saturday as a statement against pandemic restrictions, according to authorities and people who tweeted from the scene.





> A point person for the rally, conservative activist Darr Moon, the husband of Republican state Rep. Dorothy Moon, said it was one of multiple Burn the Mask rallies across the state Saturday organized by several groups.











						Idaho protesters burn masks at state Capitol rally
					

"Open flames are not allowed on State Capitol grounds," state police said.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Thomas Veil said:


> Why don’t we just call this what it is: a Pro-Covid Rally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Idaho protesters burn masks at state Capitol rally
> 
> 
> "Open flames are not allowed on State Capitol grounds," state police said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com



Cletus: “I’m looking for a way to say ‘I’m an idiot’ but also ‘I don’t care about other people’ at the same time…”
Skeeter: “I got just the thing for ya!”


----------



## Eric

We are trying to get my wife's elderly parents setup to get their vaccines from a different state and it's absolutely painful. They barely know how to use a computer and the rules for signing up, downloading and filling out forms are frankly ridiculous, the most vulnerable are the most technically challenged. They should simply have them show their ID, ask a couple of questions about how they're feeling and give them the shot.


----------



## Alli

And in the meanwhile, wear a frigging mask.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1369475426389725187/


> All Alaskans age 16 and older now eligible for COVID-19 vaccine
> 
> 
> The change, effective immediately, makes Alaska the first U.S. state to remove nearly all eligibility requirements for the COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.adn.com




Me:


----------



## JayMysteri0

That opening line is a gut punch.  I think it's what we USED to say about Jersey.


----------



## Thomas Veil

All former presidents (except one) participate in vaccine promotion


----------



## DT

So around here, there's been a lot of talk of "excess" vaccine, people scheduling but not showing.  Our Publix (grocery/pharmacy) is now providing it, so around 6p tonight we popped down, asked if they had any, no, but check back again, then the pharm guy said, "Oh wait, are you a customer here? " Yes, we do our scripts there, so he checks the wife's info, and jots her phone down on a note, asks if we can get there quickly in the event they had any over the next week ("yes", we're about 2 miles north on a straight road with no lights ...)

So about 30 minutes ago, wife gets the call, "We have two doses, can you be here before we close?", "Yes, give us 5 minutes ...", we fly down and we both have now received our first dose (Moderna).


----------



## Clix Pix

Congratulations on getting your first doses!   You're on your way to being fully inoculated......


----------



## Alli

DT said:


> So around here, there's been a lot of talk of "excess" vaccine, people scheduling but not showing.  Our Publix (grocery/pharmacy) is now providing it, so around 6p tonight we popped down, asked if they had any, no, but check back again, then the pharm guy said, "Oh wait, are you a customer here? " Yes, we do our scripts there, so he checks the wife's info, and jots her phone down on a note, asks if we can get there quickly in the event they had any over the next week ("yes", we're about 2 miles north on a straight road with no lights ...)
> 
> So about 30 minutes ago, wife gets the call, "We have two doses, can you be here before we close?", "Yes, give us 5 minutes ...", we fly down and we both have now received our first dose (Moderna).



Seems to be something they’re doing right in your area. My brother and sister-in-law also got their first doses yesterday by doing the same thing, and my nephew (in Tampa) was able to get his a few days ago by hanging out in line at Publix.

They finally announced that they’ll be opening up to people 55+ in 10 days, so I just have to hang in there for another week. At this point I’d like the J&J just to get it over with.


----------



## DT

I feel a little loopy, but that could be waking up at 6am, an insane day (holy shit, _do_not_ask_, but we have a new waste-water pump ...), then zero productivity with code (which always scrambles my brain ...), talking to car dealer (ugh ...), and beer/beer/bourbon.

We're GTFOOH next week for a few days, I need a reset.


----------



## Alli

DT said:


> We're GTFOOH next week for a few days, I need a reset.



Going anywhere exciting?


----------



## Yoused

My brother seems to be a bit mentally unbalanced:

* I got my first Covid shot today at the Big Timber Civic Center.
 _      Frankly I was terrified! The help helicopter was idling in the parking lot of the IGA across the street waiting to medivac casualties. 
 _      When I walked in, I was unceremoniously hustled to a table where two burly men held me firmly down as a big nurse with the largest syringe I've ever seen was chuckling evilly as she filled her syringe. The needle looked like a drinking straw.
 _      Gazing across the floor of the civic center briefly because I could not bear to watch, I saw paramedics treating a woman who was having convulsions. Another man was getting a epinephrine shot, his arm swollen to triple its normal size. Another patient lay twitching feebly on the floor with someone standing over him yelling for a paramedic.
_        The place reeked of piss and shit from terrified people. As I returned my gaze to the to the nurse she asked which shoulder – I said left,  and she plunged the huge needle in.
_       OH MY GOD! It was like liquid fire in my veins. Beads of sweat stood out on my forehead as I clamped my teeth shut and tried not to scream.   I'm not ashamed to say I pissed myself. A red fog descended over my vision, and then everything went black.
_       It must have been just moments. The nurse was holding smelling salts under my nose and slapping my face to bring me out of it. "Can you walk?".
 _      "I think so."
_       With help I staggered over to a chair to wait the required 15 minutes. I was one of the lucky ones. As I left I saw men zipping someone into a body bag, and heard the roar of the help helicopter hauling the lady who had gone into convulsions to Billings for further treatment, as another touched down to await the next casualty.
_       The scene was unimaginable. A veritable hellscape. I dread to think that I will have to go back for yet another shot. Could the disease possibly be any worse than the cure?*​


----------



## Alli

Yoused said:


> My brother seems to be a bit mentally unbalanced:



But what an imagination!


----------



## Eric

I got an email from Kaiser today asking me to schedule and they had openings this afternoon so I went down and got my first dose, the wait was well over an hour though. They were also offering the J&J to anyone in line who wanted it and they were getting them immediately, I chose to wait it out and got the one from Pfizer, if I didn't have a pre-existing condition I would've went with J&J though.


----------



## JayMysteri0

After posting about the latest F - with from congress wanting credit for something they voted against because of party, I need to post this

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1370958500852027393/


----------



## Eric

Yesterday when I got my first shot I felt nothing, not even soreness. Today I definitely feel it though, also a bit run down and a pretty strong metallic taste. Sounds like the second shot is worse  still a small price to pay for immunity.


----------



## Thomas Veil

I got my first shot yesterday too, and aside from an achy arm and feeling tired, I’m doing well. And I feel good that an entire year of my being careful and sacrificing family get-togethers is finally starting to pay off.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Seems like there’s always another new symptom we’ve never heard of. Now it’s parosmia.









						Online Originals: Parosmia is the rancid-smelling aftermath of COVID-19 that has many concerned
					

GREENVILLE, N.C. (WNCT) — An increasing number of patients are now suffering from a strange condition after recovering from COVID-19. It’s called Parosmia and it’s leaving patients with a fou…




					www.wnct.com
				






> Parosmia is a condition that distorts a person’s sense of smell. The condition can cause one to lose the intensity of their smell. But, more frequently, it can cause one to experience an overpowering rancid scent. It can happen either around smells that are normally pleasant or around nothing at all, just lingering in the air.




And it doesn’t sound like there’s anything doctors can do about it.


----------



## Eric

Thomas Veil said:


> I got my first shot yesterday too, and aside from an achy arm and feeling tired, I’m doing well. And I feel good that an entire year of my being careful and sacrificing family get-togethers is finally starting to pay off.



I actually got hit pretty hard with symptoms today, run down, feverish, headache and a nasty taste in my mouth. Sounds like the second one is going to be worse, not looking forward to that.


----------



## Alli

ericgtr12 said:


> I actually got hit pretty hard with symptoms today, run down, feverish, headache and a nasty taste in my mouth. Sounds like the second one is going to be worse, not looking forward to that.



Everyone I know who's had both doses got something the 2nd time, but mostly they were just run down for a day. Still beats the day of constant upchucking you get with the 2nd shingles vaccine, and anything is worth not dying from Covid. Hopefully I'll finally be able to start my vaccine next week.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> Everyone I know who's had both doses got something the 2nd time, but mostly they were just run down for a day. Still beats the day of constant upchucking you get with the 2nd shingles vaccine, and anything is worth not dying from Covid. Hopefully I'll finally be able to start my vaccine next week.



Wow really? I was thinking about getting the shingles vaccine but screw that. Fingers crossed that you get on the list asap for the COVID vaccine though, they're coming in fast and furious here in CA right now. For me this thing is life changing because I've had so much anxiety around it all year long, mild symptoms for a couple of days are nothing, I just feel lucky to get it.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Alli said:


> ...Still beats the day of constant upchucking you get with the 2nd shingles vaccine...



Oh, thanks. I’m still supposed to get that. Now I’m _really_ looking forward to it.


----------



## shadow puppet

Alli said:


> Still beats the day of constant upchucking you get with the 2nd shingles vaccine






Thomas Veil said:


> Oh, thanks. I’m still supposed to get that. Now I’m _really_ looking forward to it.



I never had any problems with either of my shingles vaccines.  Hoping it goes as smoothly for you.


----------



## Clix Pix

My reaction to the Moderna vaccine was more intense on the first dose than with the second dose....  Second time I felt the usual discomfort in the arm at the injection site, plus had a day of feeling just generally "blah" with little energy, although not really ill.   Thankfully that went away the following day after an early night and a good long sleep.  Glad that's all behind me now!

Eh...if one has constant upchucking with the Shingles vaccine, I think I'll pass, thank you very much!


----------



## shadow puppet

Clix Pix said:


> Eh...if one has constant upchucking with the Shingles vaccine, I think I'll pass, thank you very much!



I never had the problem.  Nor did any of my friends having the shingles vaccines.  Much better to get through a brief pin prick than what sounds to be the heinous pain of shingles.


----------



## Clix Pix

True......my brother-in-law had Shingles and he was miserable for quite a while.  He's OK now, but it seemed that the recovery took rather a long time.


----------



## Eric

Clix Pix said:


> My reaction to the Moderna vaccine was more intense on the first dose than with the second dose....  Second time I felt the usual discomfort in the arm at the injection site, plus had a day of feeling just generally "blah" with little energy, although not really ill.   Thankfully that went away the following day after an early night and a good long sleep.  Glad that's all behind me now!
> 
> Eh...if one has constant upchucking with the Shingles vaccine, I think I'll pass, thank you very much!



Thanks for reporting this, I tried looking it up but everyone talks about the second shot being the worst with no noticeable effects from the first. I am just starting to feel better now but for a day and a half I sure felt it, symptoms didn't really even start until the next day but then hit me like a ton of bricks. Also, I felt zero injection site pain until the next day as well. Normally with my flu shot the injection site pain is worst right after the injection.


----------



## Clix Pix

The first dose of Moderna was interesting.  I had the arm/injection site pain the day after, and thought I was free and clear.....but then I had a reaction which was similar to my usual allergy symptoms: an abrupt onset of runny nose and sneezing.  It's a little early yet here for that kind of response, and I was surprised.  I knew it wasn't the onset of a cold, I didn't feel ill, this felt like a response to pollen or whatever.  I took a Zyrtec and surprise, surprise, the symptoms disappeared promptly.  Great!  Ah, but then..... the next day I had the mother of all backaches and radiating pain down the legs and such which was reminiscent of what I'd experienced when I sustained a herniated disc at L-5/S-1 years ago, but at the same time this felt different somehow.  Inflammatory.   Bingo, that was the magic word, as I realized when in another post back then I mentioned this and the Good Doctor P _X  provided exactly the explanation I needed.  Bingo!  And, yes, sure enough. the discomfort began going away the following day, continuing for a while longer to a lesser degree then finally clearing up....

So, yeah, everyone's body is going to have a different response to the vaccine, and for some of us the response comes early on while for others it's an easy skate through the first dose and then they get whammed by the second one.    I was definitely concerned about what I might experience at the second inoculation and was really pleasantly surprised and relieved that I didn't have a second round of what I'd felt the first time and that the reaction was significantly milder and shorter-lived. 

Better this than COVID-19, though!


----------



## Alli

Thomas Veil said:


> Oh, thanks. I’m still supposed to get that. Now I’m _really_ looking forward to it.






shadow puppet said:


> I never had any problems with either of my shingles vaccines.  Hoping it goes as smoothly for you.






Clix Pix said:


> Eh...if one has constant upchucking with the Shingles vaccine, I think I'll pass, thank you very much!



My husband had no problem with either the first or second shingles jab (or with the Pfizer for Covid). I just react differently. I still advise getting the shingles vaccine, cause as I've seen with friends, having shingles is a miserable and painful experience.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Clix Pix said:


> True......my brother-in-law had Shingles and he was miserable for quite a while.  He's OK now, but it seemed that the recovery took rather a long time.



I’ve got a work colleague who went on a family vacation with his wife and kids just as his shingles was starting to develop. It was a miserable, wasted vacation for him—spent in bed with the shades drawn, suffering from the symptoms. And the skin lesions took weeks to go away.


----------



## Alli

In the short time since I last posted I got a text that I could get an appointment for my first jab. Lots of available slots, so I’m heading out in just under an hour. Woohoo!


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> In the short time since I last posted I got a text that I could get an appointment for my first jab. Lots of available slots, so I’m heading out in just under an hour. Woohoo!



Awesome! For me it was like winning the lottery lol.


----------



## Clix Pix

Hooray, Alli!!!!  Great news!!!


----------



## User.45

We are really on track with the shots..finally. Not everything is bad. 








NYT has a good tracker. We are hitting that 2M+ shots/day rate that we need to vaccinate the adult population  to herd immunity range within 6 mo. Pretty good. Now if Pfizer and Moderna can come up with the SA variant booster, we might get this under decent control.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> We are really on track with the shots..finally. Not everything is bad.
> 
> View attachment 4040View attachment 4041
> 
> 
> NYT has a good tracker. We are hitting that 2M+ shots/day rate that we need to vaccinate the adult population  to herd immunity range within 6 mo. Pretty good. Now if Pfizer and Moderna can come up with the SA variant booster, we might get this under decent control.



I would be glad to take whatever booster they offer as well, having your life back is totally worth this and we're lucky to even have these options IMO.


----------



## Alli

ericgtr12 said:


> Awesome! For me it was like winning the lottery lol.



That's exactly how it felt!


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> That's exactly how it felt!



How are you holding up? Do you know which brand you got? Mine is Pfizer.


----------



## Alli

ericgtr12 said:


> How are you holding up? Do you know which brand you got? Mine is Pfizer.



Not even a sore arm. Also got the Pfizer. So April 6 I'll be back downtown for my 2nd jab. And then it will be time to celebrate!


----------



## shadow puppet

I have to wait until April.  Since I had the monoclonal antibodies mid January when I had covid, the protocol is to wait 90 days to get a vaccine.  I'm hoping when my time comes, I can get the J&J one shot version.


----------



## User.45

shadow puppet said:


> I have to wait until April.  Since I had the monoclonal antibodies mid January when I had covid, the protocol is to wait 90 days to get a vaccine.  I'm hoping when my time comes, I can get the J&J one shot version.






 We consider you rid of a drug after about 5-7 half-lives, which would put you in a 125 days range. Sometimes it's better to wait more but maximize your chances of mounting a response than getting it early and detect no antibody (happened to one of my patients on a MAb recently who didn't have antibodies after the day #42 post Moderna dose 1 [this is where the levels should be highest]). Now you've had COVID before too, which adds another level of uncertainty...AFAIK we don't have a revax plan yet for those with reasonable suspicion of failed vaccination, so it's better to maximize your chances of not getting into that group. (My group is launching a study to kinda eval this using a T-cell assay, but it will take many months to accumulate good data).


----------



## shadow puppet

Thanks, @P_X , for all the intel.

I'm being monitored by UCLA since they approved me for the Bamlanivimab.  Oddly enough, I regularly inject a different mab:  secukinumab (Cosentyx targeting IL 17).  I know they aren't the same but I find it interesting.  I still wonder if I had somehow built up some antibodies prior to getting Covid.  Due to my Cosentyx, I have a suppressed immune system and my Covid was gratefully, extremely mild.  Not to go all MR pshufd on you, but the reason I was selected to have the monoclonal antibodies is I had a mitral valve problem diagnosed last September & a mitraclip procedure performed in December.  The belief was I was high risk to go full blown Covid.  Thankfully, I did not.

I will feel a lot better once I have the vaccine though.


----------



## User.45

shadow puppet said:


> Thanks, @P_X , for all the intel.
> 
> I'm being monitored by UCLA since they approved me for the Bamlanivimab.  Oddly enough, I regularly inject a different mab:  secukinumab (Cosentyx targeting IL 17).  I know they aren't the same but I find it interesting.  I still wonder if I had somehow built up some antibodies prior to getting Covid.  Due to my Cosentyx, I have a suppressed immune system and my Covid was gratefully, extremely mild.  Not to go all MR pshufd on you, but the reason I was selected to have the monoclonal antibodies is I had a mitral valve problem diagnosed last September & a mitraclip procedure performed in December.  The belief was I was high risk to go full blown Covid.  Thankfully, I did not.
> 
> I will feel a lot better once I have the vaccine though.




You cracked me up on doing a pshufd I found it hilarious when he offed a topic talking about RAS activation of his cancer.
I suspect the concern was about the clotting issues with COVID in your case. I had to look up secukinumab...these designer MAbs make me feel old... If you think about the relatively standardly long half life of these drugs you do wonder why we give some very 2-4 weeks... 

Your situation will be all sorts of confusing with the COVID shot. You should ask your providers at UCLA if they have a study on COVID immunity post vaccination, they and you could learn a lot from the data.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> Not even a sore arm. Also got the Pfizer. So April 6 I'll be back downtown for my 2nd jab. And then it will be time to celebrate!



Excellent, hope it stays that way for you. I'm a bit worried about the second one but once it's over I will be done and done. 14 days after that dose I will feel like I can at least go back into stores, get maintenance done on the car, etc (all masked of course). The infection rate in CA right now is down to 1.8% as well and most people have calmed down and followed precautions so I'm sure that's why.


----------



## Clix Pix

After the reaction I had to the first dose of Moderna I was a bit concerned that my second dose would be worse, and was so relieved when it wasn't!  My main concern was over the possibility of another round of back pain, but thank heaven that didn't happen and the one day of general malaise was not a problem.   Today marks the first week of the two after the second dose -- only one more week to go and then I'm well and truly done, and fully inoculated.   Yay!!!   The other day looked at the stores and restaurants directory of my favorite shopping mall and was disappointed to see that a couple of the restaurants I always liked there are no longer -- one completely went under with the pandemic and I'm not sure what happened to the second one.


----------



## shadow puppet

P_X said:


> You cracked me up on doing a pshufd I found it hilarious when he offed a topic talking about RAS activation of his cancer.



Happy to provide a laugh!


----------



## Alli

shadow puppet said:


> Happy to provide a laugh!



You definitely did. But you have a long way to go to compete with him.


----------



## Thomas Veil

LOL! 









						Sign at Texas restaurant threatens a $50 fee 'If I have to explain why masks are mandatory' — CNN
					

The owners of a Denton, Texas, diner want customers to know that they are serious when they say masks are still required in their establishment.




					apple.news


----------



## User.45

Alli said:


> You definitely did. But you have a long way to go to compete with him.



Like this long


----------



## Thomas Veil

Doctor jokes...


----------



## Eric

Great news for us here in CA.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1375146617238523905/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

ericgtr12 said:


> Great news for us here in CA.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1375146617238523905/




I'm assumming you are like me, part of boarding group F - everybody who has gone through puberty.  I'm curious to see how it's going to go when they open that flood gate.  Way back when I was told it should be relatively easy to get tested, that wasn't my experience and I still haven't been tested to date.  I didn't put in any effort after that lie, but with that experience I hope that open date doesn't mean I can reasonably expect to get vaccinated some time in June.


----------



## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I'm assumming you are like me, part of boarding group F - everybody who has gone through puberty.  I'm curious to see how it's going to go when they open that flood gate.  Way back when I was told it should be relatively easy to get tested, that wasn't my experience and I still haven't been tested to date.  I didn't put in any effort after that lie, but with that experience I hope that open date doesn't mean I can reasonably expect to get vaccinated some time in June.



I have a pre-existing condition so I've already gotten my first one from Pfizer out here in the valley. However, if you keep checking Walgreens.com and put in your area it will show availability, it's literally updated minute by minute. My buddy in Daly City also got an appointment because he takes care of his elderly father. Right now they're making it pretty easy so I would think more like mid April in your case.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

ericgtr12 said:


> I have a pre-existing condition so I've already gotten my first one from Pfizer out here in the valley. However, if you keep checking Walgreens.com and put in your area it will show availability, it's literally updated minute by minute. My buddy in Daly City also got an appointment because he takes care of his elderly father. Right now they're making it pretty easy so I would think more like mid April in your case.





Cool.  I'm not in any huge rush, but I also don't want to be the last.


----------



## Thomas Veil

ericgtr12 said:


> I have a pre-existing condition so I've already gotten my first one from Pfizer out here in the valley. However, if you keep checking Walgreens.com and put in your area it will show availability, it's literally updated minute by minute. My buddy in Daly City also got an appointment because he takes care of his elderly father. Right now they're making it pretty easy so I would think more like mid April in your case.



I got the Pfizer one too.

Is your skin turning green and are you developing webbing between your toes like me? 'Cause I'm kind of worried.


----------



## Thomas Veil

BTW, how come I didn't know this before? I read just this week that if you go to Maps and type in "Covid vaccine", it'll show you all kinds of places it's available around you. Not hospitals and health departments (that I've seen so far), but a lot of pharmacies.

And when you select one, you get a little box under the location that says Make Appointment.


----------



## Alli

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Cool.  I'm not in any huge rush, but I also don't want to be the last.



You won't be the last. All those Republicans who are still trying to prove a point will be last.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Alli said:


> You won't be the last. All those Republicans who are still trying to prove a point will be last.




We're probably going to hear about people still dying from covid in the fall.  I'm sure we can accurately determine what their party affiliation was.  It's no wonder they are trying to pass so many voter suppression laws.  They have to do something to counter all their voters they are actively killing off.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Yes, this is a thing.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1375515006796591110/

The irony?

One of my friends who's wife is a nurse and got hers.  He is White.  Where we work at is in the city.  NO appointments in a 25 mile area.

If he looks where he lives, appointments galore.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I think we moved to a less restricted tier this week (Bay Area, CA).  I don't know.  I'm not a big goer-outer in my later years.  Not really a huge lifestyle change throughout all of this.  But I hit BevMo after work and it was fairly packed and when I saw a black guy in line in all black clothes with gold sequinned cowboy boots a voice in my head went "We're back, baby!"


----------



## Thomas Veil

I’m jazzed up about getting my second shot (Pfizer) next week.

It says something about the loopy way my brain works, but does anybody else, when they read the name Pfizer, also think of Price Pfister, the plumbing fixture manufacturer?

Their tag line (no longer used) was

Price Pfister
The pfabulous pfaucet with the pfunny name​
I always thought that was genius. Whoever came up with that one deserved a big bonus.


----------



## Eric

Thomas Veil said:


> I’m jazzed up about getting my second shot (Pfizer) next week.
> 
> It says something about the loopy way my brain works, but does anybody else, when they read the name Pfizer, also think of Price Pfister, the plumbing fixture manufacturer?
> 
> Their tag line (no longer used) was
> 
> Price Pfister
> The pfabulous pfaucet with the pfunny name​
> I always thought that was genius. Whoever came up with that one deserved a big bonus.



What day is it for you? Next Saturday for me and it's a wrap.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Same here.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1375852120885301248/

There needs to be an accounting.

Including her part in all of this.


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1375852120885301248/
> 
> There needs to be an accounting.
> 
> Including her part in all of this.



I think her saying this now is disingenuous and she probably shouldn't have gone there. However, not everyone is able to stand up to an imposing monster like Trump, I think she's meek in that way and probably avoids conflict by nature. On a personal level I sort of feel bad for her.


----------



## Thomas Veil

To the degree that Trump downplayed the disease and failed to act (i.e., the "empty vaccine supply cabinet" he left Biden, his golfing and sulking as the virus spread), I think he is responsible for people's deaths. And so is Scott Atlas, idiot governors like DeSantis and others. And as I've said, in my mind this qualifies as a crime against humanity--at least in the case of top federal officials. It was their responsibility to do everything in their power to protect people, and they not only failed, in many cases they actively resisted doing anything helpful.

To a significant degree, perverse human nature is responsible as well. It's not a uniquely American thing. I don't know what it is in the human makeup that creates such selfish, reckless attitudes as refusing to mask up or get the vaccine, but it's a factor nonetheless.

At least our leadership is headed in the right direction now. For a look at what things could have been like had Trump been re-elected, just take a look at Brazil.


----------



## JayMysteri0

ericgtr12 said:


> I think her saying this now is disingenuous and she probably shouldn't have gone there. However, not everyone is able to stand up to an imposing monster like Trump, I think she's meek in that way and probably avoids conflict by nature. On a personal level I sort of feel bad for her.



My feeling is she knows history will NOT look back fondly, so she's wise enough to try and get her version of history out there.

You know 45 doesn't believe he didn't do a thing & believes he's shielded.

Birx isn't & she is a doctor, so her part in all of this is even worse by her own oath.


----------



## JayMysteri0

When you can somehow make getting the vaccine a thing of spite.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1376199963567218693/


----------



## User.45

Thomas Veil said:


> To the degree that Trump downplayed the disease and failed to act (i.e., the "empty vaccine supply cabinet" he left Biden, his golfing and sulking as the virus spread), I think he is responsible for people's deaths. And so is Scott Atlas, idiot governors like DeSantis and others. And as I've said, in my mind this qualifies as a crime against humanity--at least in the case of top federal officials. It was their responsibility to do everything in their power to protect people, and they not only failed, in many cases they actively resisted doing anything helpful.
> 
> To a significant degree, perverse human nature is responsible as well. It's not a uniquely American thing. I don't know what it is in the human makeup that creates such selfish, reckless attitudes as refusing to mask up or get the vaccine, but it's a factor nonetheless.
> 
> At least our leadership is headed in the right direction now. For a look at what things could have been like had Trump been re-elected, just take a look at Brazil.



There's clear data to show how non-interventionism cost many lives. I emphasized this as an objective failure of leadership to my MR frenemy: a summer COVID peak. There was no excuse for that. NONE. It was a result of premature opening, which made the closure even more costly as at least waiting a week or two more could have addressed much of the pandemic for the summer and the whole thing should have been used to actually fix the testing infrastructure.

It may have been an intelligence failure too (and this time i'm not referring to Trumps cognition). To repeat myself, we had good enough data from medical journals by mid-to-late February 2020 to indicate the issue very serious. I suspect the admin had at least a 3-4 week edge over the journals (given the review/publication being slow).

It's easy to bash people like Birx or Fauci. I do think that Birx indeed tried to fit in with the agenda way too much. Fauci too, but as I claimed a million times, if you are an Institute director at the NIH, you know more about politics than many in the Congress. He knew exactly how far he could push things and he went as far as reasonably possible. He would have been removed if he pushed further IMHO.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> When you can somehow make getting the vaccine a thing of spite.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1376199963567218693/



It's hilarious. I do cringe about the double masking though The N95 goes inside, surgical mask outside. N95 is as good as its seal, with the surgical mask underneath, it's not gonna be very good.


----------



## SuperMatt

Deborah Birx said that the first 100K deaths were likely unavoidable because the virus caught everybody off-guard. She admitted that most after that were unnecessary and avoidable. You know it’s absolutely true too because Trump felt the need to issue a statement calling her a liar.









						Analysis: Birx shares her chilling conclusion as America arrives at a moment of introspection on the coronavirus
					

The US may finally be getting a handle on the coronavirus pandemic, but for so many Americans, it's too late, and that disconnect is raising fresh questions about why the US couldn't have done more earlier.




					www.cnn.com
				




He is a mass-murderer and should die in prison.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> Deborah Birx said that the first 100K deaths were likely unavoidable because the virus caught everybody off-guard. She admitted that most after that were unnecessary and avoidable. You know it’s absolutely true too because Trump felt the need to issue a statement calling her a liar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Analysis: Birx shares her chilling conclusion as America arrives at a moment of introspection on the coronavirus
> 
> 
> The US may finally be getting a handle on the coronavirus pandemic, but for so many Americans, it's too late, and that disconnect is raising fresh questions about why the US couldn't have done more earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He is a mass-murderer and should die in prison.



We're currently undergoing a fourth wave, Trump didn't help but America is full of entitled people who are more than happy to sacrifice everyone else's life just so they can go to the bar and that's the core of the problem.


----------



## JayMysteri0

The lengths medical personnel have gone thru for patients.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1376731657777074178/

There can't be enough thanks for what they've done & gone thru.


----------



## SuperMatt

ericgtr12 said:


> We're currently undergoing a fourth wave, Trump didn't help but America is full of entitled people who are more than happy to sacrifice everyone else's life just so they can go to the bar and that's the core of the problem.



No, leadership matters. No matter how much I think a lot of Trump voters are selfish jerks, I know for a fact that they worshiped the guy. So if he made it “patriotic” to wear masks and stay home, they would have done it. Even if all members of a cult are idiots, it doesn’t absolve the cult leader of spiking their kool-aid.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> No, leadership matters. No matter how much I think a lot of Trump voters are selfish jerks, I know for a fact that they worshiped the guy. So if he made it “patriotic” to wear masks and stay home, they would have done it. Even if all members of a cult are idiots, it doesn’t absolve the cult leader of spiking their kool-aid.



Now that Trump is gone who will you blame?


----------



## JayMysteri0

ericgtr12 said:


> Now that Trump is gone who will you blame?



Judging from what I read, it's still them & 45.  Nothing has changed.

They've just taking doubling or tripling down as some kind of badge of honor.

Their excuses haven't changed why they won't wear masks or it's their body or whatever crap they make up to rationalize.  So the blame doesn't change.  They & 45 own that shit.

If 45 wasn't so self obsessed & got it into his hardened skull that making mask wearing an issue was good thing for himself, that behavior wouldn't be engrained into many of the other @$$holes of today.

I also don't give a flying frik if Birx gives an interview a day to the point she's giving interviews to local grade school newspapers.  She isn't rewriting history and removing her complicity in making this worse than it had to be.


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> Judging from what I read, it's still them & 45.  Nothing has changed.
> 
> They've just taking doubling or tripling down as some kind of badge of honor.
> 
> Their excuses haven't changed why they won't wear masks or it's their body or whatever crap they make up to rationalize.  So the blame doesn't change.  They & 45 own that shit.
> 
> If 45 wasn't so self obsessed & got it into his hardened skull that making mask wearing an issue was good thing for himself, that behavior wouldn't be engrained into many of the other @$$holes of today.
> 
> I also don't give a flying frik if Birx gives an interview a day to the point she's giving interviews to local grade school newspapers.  She isn't rewriting history and removing her complicity in making this worse than it had to be.



Don't get me wrong, I think we all agree that Trump is directly responsible for a large portion of these deaths and acted with total reckless abandonment. We also have a large percentage of the population who would never believe the facts as well and even without Trump to bolster them they still are just as dangerous and selfish. 

IMO Trump gave these crazy ass people a platform but him leaving doesn't change who they are, the best we can hope for is them no longer being legitimized and to a degree I think we're already seeing that.


----------



## SuperMatt

ericgtr12 said:


> Now that Trump is gone who will you blame?



One’s influence does not end the day they leave office. They don’t let war criminals go free the day the war ends. Actions have consequences, some long-lasting. 

The damage has already been done and Trump’s followers are still clinging to the anti-mask fallacy.


----------



## SuperMatt

ericgtr12 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think we all agree that Trump is directly responsible for a large portion of these deaths and acted with total reckless abandonment. We also have a large percentage of the population who would never believe the facts as well and even without Trump to bolster them they still are just as dangerous and selfish.
> 
> IMO Trump gave these crazy ass people a platform but him leaving doesn't change who they are, the best we can hope for is them no longer being legitimized and to a degree I think we're already seeing that.



These crazies would be less dangerous if they hadn’t been encouraged to be even dumber and crazier and more stubborn about it by the king of the idiots.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> One’s influence does not end the day they leave office. They don’t let war criminals go free the day the war ends. Actions have consequences, some long-lasting.
> 
> The damage has already been done and Trump’s followers are still clinging to the anti-mask fallacy.



Karen's will still be Karen's. Blaming one man for everything is not the answer, he just gave them a boost.


----------



## JayMysteri0

ericgtr12 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think we all agree that Trump is directly responsible for a large portion of these deaths and acted with total reckless abandonment. We also have a large percentage of the population who would never believe the facts as well and even without Trump to bolster them they still are just as dangerous and selfish.
> 
> IMO Trump gave these crazy ass people a platform but him leaving doesn't change who they are, the best we can hope for is them no longer being legitimized and to a degree I think we're already seeing that.



Exactly.

It doesn't matter if 45 happened or not.

The blame NOW goes to the same people who will tell others they are from the party of "personal responsibility".

It's on them.  They own their shit, whether 45 or not.

The real question is who they blame if crap goes south because of their behavior.  Because to them, it isn't them or 45's fault for their actions then.


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> It doesn't matter if 45 happened or not.
> 
> *The blame NOW goes to the same people who will tell others they are from the party of "personal responsibility".*
> 
> It's on them.  They own their shit, whether 45 or not.
> 
> The real question is who they blame if crap goes south because of their behavior.  Because to them, it isn't them or 45's fault for their actions then.



^ This. You've never seen a more self-serving group of people "I don't have to wear my mask if I choose not to" while spreading the virus is one of the most selfish things I've ever seen from a Republican and that's saying something.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

The CDC director’s impassioned “doom” speech is a perfect example of why at least half the country doesn’t trust the left and think they are little more than hyperbolic blowhards on some serious issues.

it’s been over a year now. People know the score. The people who take it seriously will continue to.  People who thought it was a hoax from day one, well, God will sort them out. It’s important to share information and concerns, but pleading to take it seriously this late in the game isn’t going to win any points and will in fact lose some. We’ve come a long way and there may be more localized surges, but we really don’t need somebody in a leadership role acting like it’s a forgone conclusion that the worst is yet to come while holding back tears.  Again, share the facts and concerns, dial the emotions back.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> The CDC director’s impassioned “doom” speech is a perfect example of why at least half the country doesn’t trust the left and think they are little more than hyperbolic blowhards on some serious issues.
> 
> it’s been over a year now. People know the score. The people who take it seriously will continue to.  People who thought it was a hoax from day one, well, God will sort them out. It’s important to share information and concerns, but pleading to take it seriously this late in the game isn’t going to win any points and will in fact lose some. We’ve come a long way and there may be more localized surges, but we really don’t need somebody in a leadership role acting like it’s a forgone conclusion that the worst is yet to come while holding back tears.  Again, share the facts and concerns, dial the emotions back.



I strongly disagree. It's her way to emphasize the importance of keeping up with the individual pandemic measures. She's talking about a new wave that's already fucking up Europe and it is worse than the actual winter wave and is AFAIK due to the British variant, way nastier than the wild-type strain. Trying everything, including pleading to nip this in the bud is not hyperbole or poor leadership, or even weakness. It's the opposite. We've been heavily criticizing Birx's style here (something I tend to agree with). She did say in her CNN interview how an irate Trump gave her a very nasty call threatening her after she emphasized how big a problem we are facing. We now have (real) leadership that allows the experts to express their concerns. It's a good thing. 

She's also right. We can actually prevent this wave by getting everybody vaccinated, and the slightly lower vaccine efficacy against this strain (AFAIK) will requires a higher population proportion to be vaccinated for herd immunity. So when states like Texas try to pretend like all's good, we have to do everything to remind people that not yet. 

So you giving up on covidiots, doesn't mean that she should too.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> I strongly disagree. It's her way to emphasize the importance of keeping up with the individual pandemic measures. She's talking about a new wave that's already fucking up Europe and it is worse than the actual winter wave and is AFAIK due to the British variant, way nastier than the wild-type strain. Trying everything, including pleading to nip this in the bud is not hyperbole or poor leadership, or even weakness. It's the opposite. We've been heavily criticizing Birx's style here (something I tend to agree with). She did say in her CNN interview how an irate Trump gave her a very nasty call threatening her after she emphasized how big a problem we are facing. We now have (real) leadership that allows the experts to express their concerns. It's a good thing.
> 
> She's also right. We can actually prevent this wave by getting everybody vaccinated, and the slightly lower vaccine efficacy against this strain (AFAIK) will requires a higher population proportion to be vaccinated for herd immunity. So when states like Texas try to pretend like all's good, we have to do everything to remind people that not yet.
> 
> So you giving up on covidiots, doesn't mean that she should too.




If she’s trying to reach out to the covidiots she needs to learn how to communicate with them. They certainly aren’t going to finally take it seriously from a perceived performative bleeding heart liberal. “I thought it was a hoax until I saw the lady almost pass out from hypothetical scenario depression. Now I get it. If only Trump put it to me like that.” My main point is the facts can be shared and said that they need to be taken seriously. Like has been mentioned in this thread, the main reason we have a lot of covidiots is because of Trump and his sycophants. The overwhelming response as to why Trump’s supporters like him (and can blow off his unlimited flaws) is because he fights and is tough, their words. So you aren’t going to win these people over with tearful begging.

We have a big communication problem in this country and it’s not just that we aren’t listening to each other, but also from putting close to zero effort into trying to communicate to the other side in terms they can relate to and you can also win them over with. There used to be diplomacy. Now we might as well be speaking a foreign language with only the words “No. You’re wrong. Fuck you.” In common.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> If she’s trying to reach out to the covidiots she needs to learn how to communicate with them. They certainly aren’t going to finally take it seriously from a perceived performative bleeding heart liberal. “I thought it was a hoax until I saw the lady almost pass out from hypothetical scenario depression. Now I get it. If only Trump put it to me like that.” My main point is the facts can be shared and said that they need to be taken seriously. Like has been mentioned in this thread, the main reason we have a lot of covidiots is because of Trump and his sycophants. The overwhelming response as to why Trump’s supporters like him (and can blow off his unlimited flaws) is because he fights and is tough, their words. So you aren’t going to win these people over with tearful begging.
> 
> We have a big communication problem in this country and it’s not just that we aren’t listening to each other, but also from putting close to zero effort into trying to communicate to the other side in terms they can relate to and you can also win them over with. There used to be diplomacy. Now we might as well be speaking a foreign language with only the words “No. You’re wrong. Fuck you.” In common.



How would you suggest she transmit facts to the Fox News crowd? Thing is, the fact that she got emotional ended up getting her at least on the radar of Fox, even if it was just to mock her. If she gave a dry boring speech with facts, it never would have gotten any airtime on such news sources.


----------



## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> The CDC director’s impassioned “doom” speech is a perfect example of why at least half the country doesn’t trust the left and think they are little more than hyperbolic blowhards on some serious issues.
> 
> it’s been over a year now. People know the score. The people who take it seriously will continue to.  People who thought it was a hoax from day one, well, God will sort them out. It’s important to share information and concerns, but pleading to take it seriously this late in the game isn’t going to win any points and will in fact lose some. We’ve come a long way and there may be more localized surges, but we really don’t need somebody in a leadership role acting like it’s a forgone conclusion that the worst is yet to come while holding back tears.  Again, share the facts and concerns, dial the emotions back.



Man, I get that you have a grind with the left but all they've done is advocate for science and reason this entire time. How about showing the crazies on the right a little of that disdain? They are directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands because they couldn't be bothered to socially distance or wear a mask.

The CDC director is impassioned for a reason, dismissing the death of a half million Americans is a far greater problem. I don't envy her job but am glad she's at least trying.

BTW if you're not taking this thing seriously now you never will. I just hope you're at least following the guidelines.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> If she’s trying to reach out to the covidiots she needs to learn how to communicate with them. They certainly aren’t going to finally take it seriously from a perceived performative bleeding heart liberal. “I thought it was a hoax until I saw the lady almost pass out from hypothetical scenario depression. Now I get it. If only Trump put it to me like that.” My main point is the facts can be shared and said that they need to be taken seriously. Like has been mentioned in this thread, the main reason we have a lot of covidiots is because of Trump and his sycophants. The overwhelming response as to why Trump’s supporters like him (and can blow off his unlimited flaws) is because he fights and is tough, their words. So you aren’t going to win these people over with tearful begging.
> 
> We have a big communication problem in this country and it’s not just that we aren’t listening to each other, but also from putting close to zero effort into trying to communicate to the other side in terms they can relate to and you can also win them over with. There used to be diplomacy. Now we might as well be speaking a foreign language with only the words “No. You’re wrong. Fuck you.” In common.



I think you are really missing the point. You are trying to break this issue down along party lines and it's wrong. if somebody thinks of the CDC director as a bleeding heart liberal, sure they are hopeless. But this plead also intends to reach those who'd listen but 1) getting demoralized, 2) starting to have a perception that we've "turned the corner" with the vaccines coming.  I also do want to emphasize that female leaders are perceived to have issues containing their emotions. Such utter bullshit really pisses me off, when women have a much better understanding of emotions both their's and others'. FFS she's a faculty at Harvard, the most cut throat place in academia (personal experience). She knows what she's doing...

At the end of the day, you think it's gonna be her or Birx who'll be commemorated as having the right approach?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> How would you suggest she transmit facts to the Fox News crowd? Thing is, the fact that she got emotional ended up getting her at least on the radar of Fox, even if it was just to mock her. If she gave a dry boring speech with facts, it never would have gotten any airtime on such news sources.





ericgtr12 said:


> Man, I get that you have a grind with the left but all they've done is advocate for science and reason this entire time. How about showing the crazies on the right a little of that disdain? They are directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands because they couldn't be bothered to socially distance or wear a mask.
> 
> The CDC director is impassioned for a reason, dismissing the death of a half million Americans is a far greater problem. I don't envy her job but am glad she's at least trying.
> 
> BTW if you're not taking this thing seriously now you never will. I just hope you're at least following the guidelines.





P_X said:


> I think you are really missing the point. You are trying to break this issue down along party lines and it's wrong. if somebody thinks of the CDC director as a bleeding heart liberal, sure they are hopeless. But this plead also intends to reach those who'd listen but 1) getting demoralized, 2) starting to have a perception that we've "turned the corner" with the vaccines coming.  I also do want to emphasize that female leaders are perceived to have issues containing their emotions. Such utter bullshit really pisses me off, when women have a much better understanding of emotions both their's and others'. FFS she's a faculty at Harvard, the most cut throat place in academia (personal experience). She knows what she's doing...
> 
> At the end of the day, you think it's gonna be her or Birx who'll be commemorated as having the right approach?




A threefer!  

I know I'm painting with broad strokes here and there's always a possibility I'm talking out of my ass, but not on purpose.  I'm just saying there's a good possibility you could have a recently more open minded covidiot watching and "That seemed informative.  Maybe I should be more vigilante than my local government seems to think I should be.  Wait.  Hold up.  Oh Jesus, now they're going with the emotional sky is falling schtick again.  Never mind.  I knew this was an overblown hoax the Democrats are using to destroy the economy and turn us into a welfare state they control."  That's mostly my point.

This makes me think about security theater, something we are surrounded by everyday that keeps us (maybe unrealistically) comfortable so there's no total breakdown and panic.  The most obvious example is the TSA at the airport who is supposed to make us feel safe but the fact is a terrorist could still take down a plane if they really wanted to.  An evil example of this would be the Nazis putting nice flowerbeds between the trains and the gas chambers while telling the victims they were just going to take a shower to prevent panic and revolt.  In this example and in this climate not keeping your composure can be seen by some that you are way overreacting and therefor they don't know what to believe, if any of it.  I haven't read Fox's take on this, but I assume that is their angle?

I've taken things seriously from the beginning and am lucky enough to live in a state that also did early on and continues to use a data based approach to how to reopen and there's always a possibility things could go back to being more restrictive if that data changes.  I'm fine with that.  I've also been lucky enough to keep my job and work full time this entire time.  So I can't personally relate to the millions who have suffered from that end of things, but can logically understand their frustration.  

Now in the news it seems there's like the new variant of the week.  I don't even know what we're supposed to do with that information.  Wear a different mask for each variant?  I could easily see how this to some paints a picture that the Democrats just never want this to end.  "We're finally getting vaccinated, and at record levels!!  Yay!  But wait.  Lurking around the corner there's a creeping variant!  Can our vaccines keep up!?!  We may never know!  What's that I see out of the corner of my eye?  It's another variant!"

I know my sometimes mission on here is still getting missed by many, and that's fine and I understand it, but I don't go down these roads to say the left sucks and the right is awesome.  This event probably won't make my list but I am taking notes for if/when Congress flips or we get another Republican president to explain what could possibly caused that to happen, aside from the balls out cheating from the right.  Maybe someday we will have the numbers to triumph over idiots but we aren't there yet.  

Honestly I think the left needs a "I know how the right is going to spin this" department that is always ahead of the ball and LOUDLY unspinning whatever it is.  That should be a big part of everything they do and it shouldn't be tackled by some stuffy status quo "Well that's just preposterous what they are saying".  That's giving the deplorables red meat and they aren't going away anytime soon.  

Look, man  I know it's only been several months of Biden's Presidency.  So I may be hitting this drum a little too soon and a little too loud.  I just know as a lefty we have a long history of falling asleep through a presidency when it's one of ours at the helm and then we wake up one day and Trump's the president.  WFT?  How could that happen?  Everything was going great, wasn't it?


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> A threefer!
> 
> I know I'm painting with broad strokes here and there's always a possibility I'm talking out of my ass, but not on purpose.  I'm just saying there's a good possibility you could have a recently more open minded covidiot watching and "That seemed informative.  Maybe I should be more vigilante than my local government seems to think I should be.  Wait.  Hold up.  Oh Jesus, now they're going with the emotional sky is falling schtick again.  Never mind.  I knew this was an overblown hoax the Democrats are using to destroy the economy and turn us into a welfare state they control."  That's mostly my point.
> 
> This makes me think about security theater, something we are surrounded by everyday that keeps us (maybe unrealistically) comfortable so there's no total breakdown and panic.  The most obvious example is the TSA at the airport who is supposed to make us feel safe but the fact is a terrorist could still take down a plane if they really wanted to.  An evil example of this would be the Nazis putting nice flowerbeds between the trains and the gas chambers while telling the victims they were just going to take a shower to prevent panic and revolt.  In this example and in this climate not keeping your composure can be seen by some that you are way overreacting and therefor they don't know what to believe, if any of it.  I haven't read Fox's take on this, but I assume that is their angle?
> 
> I've taken things seriously from the beginning and am lucky enough to live in a state that also did early on and continues to use a data based approach to how to reopen and there's always a possibility things could go back to being more restrictive if that data changes.  I'm fine with that.  I've also been lucky enough to keep my job and work full time this entire time.  So I can't personally relate to the millions who have suffered from that end of things, but can logically understand their frustration.
> 
> Now in the news it seems there's like the new variant of the week.  I don't even know what we're supposed to do with that information.  Wear a different mask for each variant?  I could easily see how this to some paints a picture that the Democrats just never want this to end.  "We're finally getting vaccinated, and at record levels!!  Yay!  But wait.  Lurking around the corner there's a creeping variant!  Can our vaccines keep up!?!  We may never know!  What's that I see out of the corner of my eye?  It's another variant!"
> 
> I know my sometimes mission on here is still getting missed by many, and that's fine and I understand it, but I don't go down these roads to say the left sucks and the right is awesome.  This event probably won't make my list but I am taking notes for if/when Congress flips or we get another Republican president to explain what could possibly caused that to happen, aside from the balls out cheating from the right.  Maybe someday we will have the numbers to triumph over idiots but we aren't there yet.
> 
> Honestly I think the left needs a "I know how the right is going to spin this" department that is always ahead of the ball and LOUDLY unspinning whatever it is.  That should be a big part of everything they do and it shouldn't be tackled by some stuffy status quo "Well that's just preposterous what they are saying".  That's giving the deplorables red meat and they aren't going away anytime soon.
> 
> Look, man  I know it's only been several months of Biden's Presidency.  So I may be hitting this drum a little too soon and a little too loud.  I just know as a lefty we have a long history of falling asleep through a presidency when it's one of ours at the helm and then we wake up one day and Trump's the president.  WFT?  How could that happen?  Everything was going great, wasn't it?



I do get where you're coming from and I generally appreciate your skepticism (including here). Yet, there are limits of reasons where I'm willing to, or really care about what right wing nuts might think. Reasonable people on the right appreciate the issues with COVID too, and I do think it is time to unpoliticize COVID. Again the blind spot here is that it's not only Republicans who are demoralized. It's everybody, including physicians and nurses.

The strain issue does not seem to be clear so I'll try to clarify. Viruses mutate. RNA-based viruses mutate faster (this reminds me Seddy calling it a retrovirus, which it is not, LOL). The higher number of cases, the more mutations. While the majority of mutations are inconsequential, some of them confer evolutionary advantage which include faster spread (if we're lucky, paired with less severe disease), and later on as immunity emerges, ability to evade immunity to the wild-type strain, i.e. reopen the pool of potentially infectable people. So keeping the cases down reduces the number of mutational events and with it the probability of consequential mutations that could render the present vaccines/immunity ineffective. The more we allow cases to rise in a partially immunized population allowing newer and newer variants to test whether they can breach current immunity, the higher the evolutionary pressure for a resistant strain to emerge. It's like the hubris of the Titanic.

So yeah, her concern is that we shouldn't push our luck and what is currently forming may be much more devastating than the "run-of-the-mill" waves we've already seen.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> I do get where you're coming from and I generally appreciate your skepticism (including here). Yet, there are limits of reasons where I'm willing to, or really care about what right wing nuts might think. Reasonable people on the right appreciate the issues with COVID too, and I do think it is time to unpoliticize COVID. Again the blind spot here is that it's not only Republicans who are demoralized. It's everybody, including physicians and nurses.
> 
> The strain issue does not seem to be clear so I'll try to clarify. Viruses mutate. RNA-based viruses mutate faster (this reminds me Seddy calling it a retrovirus, which it is not, LOL). The higher number of cases, the more mutations. While the majority of mutations are inconsequential, some of them confer evolutionary advantage which include faster spread (if we're lucky, paired with less severe disease), and later on as immunity emerges, ability to evade immunity to the wild-type strain, i.e. reopen the pool of potentially infectable people. So keeping the cases down reduces the number of mutational events and with it the probability of consequential mutations that could render the present vaccines/immunity ineffective. The more we allow cases to rise in a partially immunized population allowing newer and newer variants to test whether they can breach current immunity, the higher the evolutionary pressure for a resistant strain to emerge. It's like the hubris of the Titanic.
> 
> So yeah, her concern is that we shouldn't push our luck and what is currently forming may be much more devastating than the "run-of-the-mill" waves we've already seen.




I'm not disagreeing with you and I do sometimes make light of things.  I'm saying if we really care about saving lives, regardless of party, then there should be some serious effort to not providing fox news with sound bytes they can advertise as "Look at this emotional wreck.  How can you trust somebody that unstable".  From the left that's validly showing some humanity, but it's also preaching to the choir.  I'm in no way saying it was an act.  Again, from the left I'm sure there's "How dare you ask her to clamp down her viseral reaction.  This is real life!" I understand that.  Just don't pretend you care about the lives (or deciding votes) of people who don't agree with you or think what works/connects for you does the same for them.  Even if you think they are monsters and that is unquestionably true they still have the power to bring a world of hurt to you or your likeminded compatriots in regions you have no say in.  White supremacists are equally as confident in their beliefs and actions and if that wasn't resinating then they wouldn't be the top internal threat the FBI claims they are.  

But I also acknowledge that I don't think anybody in this thread said "That was the defining moment.  Nobody can question it now."  I just dropped into this thread to say that may not go over well with some people, the people who will most likely extend the virus and related deaths longer than needs to be.


----------



## User.45

One more comment:


Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you and I do sometimes make light of things.  I'm saying if we really care about saving lives, regardless of party, then there should be some serious effort to not providing fox news with sound bytes they can advertise as "Look at this emotional wreck.  How can you trust somebody that unstable".  From the left that's validly showing some humanity, but it's also preaching to the choir.  I'm in no way saying it was an act.  Again, from the left I'm sure there's "How dare you ask her to clamp down her viseral reaction.  This is real life!" I understand that. * Just don't pretend you care about the lives (or deciding votes) of people who don't agree with you or think what works/connects for you does the same for them.  *Even if you think they are monsters and that is unquestionably true they still have the power to bring a world of hurt to you or your likeminded compatriots in regions you have no say in.  White supremacists are equally as confident in their beliefs and actions and if that wasn't resinating then they wouldn't be the top internal threat the FBI claims they are.
> 
> But I also acknowledge that I don't think anybody in this thread said "That was the defining moment.  Nobody can question it now."  I just dropped into this thread to say that may not go over well with some people, the people who will most likely extend the virus and related deaths longer than needs to be.



I really don't understand the point. Your issue is shit not working on insane people? Shall we start catering to insanity now? WTF  Again it's time to move these matters out of the realms of partisanship and move it to the realms of sanity.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> One more comment:
> 
> I really don't understand the point. Your issue is shit not working on insane people? Shall we start catering to insanity now? WTF  Again it's time to move these matters out of the realms of partisanship and move it to the realms of sanity.



At least half the country is insane and wielding the right to vote while successfully (for now) repressing the vote of sane people.  Are you _really_ confident they can be outvoted at this point?   Have the deplorables returned to under their rocks or decreased in number?  Do you honestly believe "Just stop being insane" is going to change anything?  Maybe for the comfort level of this thread, but in the outside world?   I can easily see it as "Hush.  The adults are speaking." which is both true and kind of hilariously insulting.  "My point" ultimately doesn't matter if "the point" of this Covid-19 thread is just to share knowledge and agree with each other.  I'm suggesting maybe we try to think about better responding to insane people.  I find it kind of disappointing that the traditional party of mental health issues advocacy stops short of indoctrination mental health issues, fuck them.  Call back when you've been both human trafficked and told the left is a bunch of lying evil communists.    I don't plan to frequently pop in here and drop negativity.  I've already made non controversial posts in this thread.  I'm not a one note buzzkill pony.  I just wanted to share this specific event.   

Honestly I don't think this specific moment is a big deal or red check mark.  I just brought it up and responded, sometimes at great length, to discuss this specific aspect of covid reporting and how each side has decided to treat it in their narrative.  Hey, maybe if I stop sharing it then it isn't actually happening and we won't have to think about it because its icky negative boo.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> At least half the country is insane and wielding the right to vote while successfully (for now) repressing the vote of sane people.  Are you _really_ confident they can be outvoted at this point?   Have the deplorables returned to under their rocks or decreased in number?  Do you honestly believe "Just stop being insane" is going to change anything?  Maybe for the comfort level of this thread, but in the outside world?   I can easily see it as "Hush.  The adults are speaking." which is both true and kind of hilariously insulting.  "My point" ultimately doesn't matter if "the point" of this Covid-19 thread is just to share knowledge and agree with each other.  I'm suggesting maybe we try to think about better responding to insane people.  I find it kind of disappointing that the traditional party of mental health issues advocacy stops short of indoctrination mental health issues, fuck them.  Call back when you've been both human trafficked and told the left is a bunch of lying evil communists.    I don't plan to frequently pop in here and drop negativity.  I've already made non controversial posts in this thread.  I'm not a one note buzzkill pony.  I just wanted to share this specific event.
> 
> Honestly I don't think this specific moment is a big deal or red check mark.  I just brought it up and responded, sometimes at great length, to discuss this specific aspect of covid reporting and how each side has decided to treat it in their narrative.  Hey, maybe if I stop sharing it then it isn't actually happening and we won't have to think about it because its icky negative boo.



You are really, really, really missing the context:
1. The CDC director is not a politician. 
2. COVID isn't a partisan issue (it shouldn't be)
3. You overestimate the insanity in the RW (hint: you think people like Cruz are insane?)

Did she do the right thing? Yes
Did this do harm to the cause? No.
Did she get more attention? Yes.
Is this action a net positive? Most likely.

My impression here is that you expect the wrong thing, from the wrong person, to cater to those nobody could cater to, for results nobody would realistically expect. You expect some sort of compromise to cater to people who aren't interested in compromises, and you describe her as a "bleeding heart liberal". She's the CDC director. Some RW people dismiss anybody who's qualified for a leadership position as the "elite".


----------



## Alli

P_X said:


> 1. The CDC director is not a politician.



The right has managed to politicize many positions not held by politicians. They are not going to let go of that.


----------



## User.45

Alli said:


> The right has managed to politicize many positions not held by politicians. They are not going to let go of that.



True. And that's a direct Trump effect that during his admin, they truly were politicized. I wish everybody recorded trump's fucking phonecalls from birx to fauci to hahn. It's time to recover from Trump's dump.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you and I do sometimes make light of things.  I'm saying if we really care about saving lives, regardless of party, then there should be some serious effort to not providing fox news with sound bytes they can advertise as "Look at this emotional wreck.  How can you trust somebody that unstable".  From the left that's validly showing some humanity, but it's also preaching to the choir.  I'm in no way saying it was an act.  Again, from the left I'm sure there's "How dare you ask her to clamp down her viseral reaction.  This is real life!" I understand that.  Just don't pretend you care about the lives (or deciding votes) of people who don't agree with you or think what works/connects for you does the same for them.  Even if you think they are monsters and that is unquestionably true they still have the power to bring a world of hurt to you or your likeminded compatriots in regions you have no say in.  White supremacists are equally as confident in their beliefs and actions and if that wasn't resinating then they wouldn't be the top internal threat the FBI claims they are.
> 
> But I also acknowledge that I don't think anybody in this thread said "That was the defining moment.  Nobody can question it now."  I just dropped into this thread to say that may not go over well with some people, the people who will most likely extend the virus and related deaths longer than needs to be.



They were totally cool with John Boehner crying 10 times a day though about nothing. Made him seem sensitive or something.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> You are really, really, really missing the context:
> 1. The CDC director is not a politician.
> 2. COVID isn't a partisan issue (it shouldn't be)
> 3. You overestimate the insanity in the RW (hint: you think people like Cruz are insane?)
> 
> Did she do the right thing? Yes
> Did this do harm to the cause? No.
> Did she get more attention? Yes.
> Is this action a net positive? Most likely.
> 
> My impression here is that you expect the wrong thing, from the wrong person, to cater to those nobody could cater to, for results nobody would realistically expect. You expect some sort of compromise to cater to people who aren't interested in compromises, and you describe her as a "bleeding heart liberal". She's the CDC director. Some RW people dismiss anybody who's qualified for a leadership position as the "elite".




I don’t disagree with that, except 1. which Alli already pointed out.

It was a relatively small thing I drew a lot of attention to.  Sometimes (not all the time) I get a little obsessed with trying to figure out how to win over the unreachable.  I’m still not confident we won’t get a Trump 2.0, in either the form of Trump himself or somebody his ideology twin.  Some have even suggested his ideology twin will be even more skilled, which isn’t saying much given Trump’s low bar, but .....wait for it....even Hitler knew at one point to dial back his antisemitism until he had complete control.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I don’t disagree with that, except 1. which Alli already pointed out.
> 
> It was a relatively small thing I drew a lot of attention to.  Sometimes (not all the time) I get a little obsessed with trying to figure out how to win over the unreachable.  I’m still not confident we won’t get a Trump 2.0, in either the form of Trump himself or somebody his ideology twin.  Some have even suggested his ideology twin will be even more skilled, which isn’t saying much given Trump’s low bar, but .....wait for it....even Hitler knew at one point to dial back his antisemitism until he had complete control.



I generally agree with these concerns, but the CDC is the wrong door. I want the leader to be a ID doc with an epidemiology background and a robust track record of organizing care and policy around these issues. It shouldn't do much with politics. Though...ID docs are the leftest leaning of all physicians. Adding ID training on internal medicine is one of the very few trainings that don't come with a substantial salary increase, it actually comes with a salary drop...


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> They were totally cool with John Boehner crying 10 times a day though about nothing. Made him seem sensitive or something.




I’m pretty sure history is going to see Trump as a distinct political turning point, but also I don’t know if we can say they were cool with it. Trump supporters are anti establishment which also includes establishment Republicans.  There’s a good chance all the Republican representatives who voted to impeach Trump (aside from Romney) will get voted out of office just based on that alone and will get replaced with a Trump worshipper and good luck finding a Republican politician who definitively and publicly condemns Trump. They are there but nowhere near the majority at this point.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> John Boehner crying 10 times a day though about nothing. Made him seem sensitive or something.




Also this made me think of a Boehner impersonator who called into a show shortly after he was out of office and when the interviewer asked what he thought about current politics he said "I don't give a fuck." and when pressed with a followup question he said "Which part of "I don't give a fuck" don't you understand?  Was it the "I"? Maybe the "don't"? Perhaps it was the "fuck"?"    It's one my dreams to be in a scenario where I can use that.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1380314186949959682/


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1380314186949959682/



Yup. She's what they used to call a "dissident" in the SU.

(I'd be shocked if she didn't get a Nobel. She meets all major criteria I'm aware of ).


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1380630630816477184/

And I had to read this earlier?

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mask-shaming.2242946/post-29758583


> I am around unmasked people every day on job sites. I don't live in fear of getting it. Maybe I should be, but I am not.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1380630630816477184/
> 
> And I had to read this earlier?
> 
> https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mask-shaming.2242946/post-29758583



I've never seen this but sounds like an awful idea. Mittens...That's the official handware of ICUs. Intubated people tend to self-extubate, because an ICU is the closest thing on earth a christian would refer to hell..or purgatory if you're lucky.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Wow!   I didn't realize this

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1382057485356343296/


----------



## SuperMatt

The legacy of Trump:



> “I just never in a million years ever expected my field of work to become less medical and more political,” said Hailey Bloom, a registered Republican and the public information officer for the health department that covers Natrona County, Wyo., which Mr. Trump won by a wide margin last year.
> 
> The health department, Ms. Bloom said, set up a clinic in a former Macy’s at the local mall and was prepared to give 1,500 shots a day, four days a week. But it has never been able to fill all the slots, she said; usually, 300 or 400 people show up.
> 
> Ms. Bloom, like many other county officials, said she feared that reaching herd immunity might not be possible in her community. “It’s terrifying to think that this may never end,” she said. “So much hinges on these vaccinations.”



People dying of a disease rather than getting a free vaccine, all to show obeisance to a FORMER president. You truly can fool some of the people all of the time.









						Least Vaccinated U.S. Counties Have Something in Common: Trump Voters (Published 2021)
					

A Times analysis found that willingness to receive a vaccine and actual vaccination rates to date were both lower, on average, in counties that voted red in the 2020 presidential election.



					www.nytimes.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

SuperMatt said:


> The legacy of Trump:
> 
> 
> People dying of a disease rather than getting a free vaccine, all to show obeisance to a FORMER president. You truly can fool some of the people all of the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Least Vaccinated U.S. Counties Have Something in Common: Trump Voters (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> A Times analysis found that willingness to receive a vaccine and actual vaccination rates to date were both lower, on average, in counties that voted red in the 2020 presidential election.
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



Furthering the irony, stupidity, & pettiness of that former president getting his shots secretly for himself & family.

Demonstrating there are far more suckers in this country than expected, and how much they will double & triple down in being suckered.

At the possible cost of their lives & others.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Things I learned from my first vaccination shot.  I couldn't tell you how old I am off the top of my head and I totally forgot I have a shoulder tattoo.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Was this made in Arkansas?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1384257533645254661/


----------



## Eric

At my work half our development team in Pune, India are out sick, some hospitalized. One of the managers I work with said there is a case in pretty much every household and she's already lost two friends in their mid 50s with no pre-existing conditions.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wow!   I didn't realize this
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1382057485356343296/



Oh, this happened in many states in the USA last year. I was very close to "redeployment" myself.


----------



## User.45

I see political amnesia setting in... I made the mistake of watching another episode of Bill Maher's show and he brought up DeSantis as an example of a republican who "reads" and handled COVID in nursing homes much better than Cuomo. This got me so pissed I turned it off. Are we now going to praise DeSantis who despite the data showing a spike of new cases, reopened Florida unleashing an avoidable summer wave on his state?! Is this like the new standard of good now?! If anybody read the NY OAG prelim report on NH deaths, the main predictor and thus likely driver of nursing home mortality was extremely severe understaffing. So to compare the states, we need to take population density and pre-COVID staffing differences into consideration, otherwise the comparison is just a political dog and pony show without much meaning.


----------



## Yoused

“_*It's a HOAX!*_” Loudest anti-problem shouty voice





__





						Ted Nugent, who once dismissed Covid-19, tells fans he's tested positive for it
					





					www.msn.com
				




catches the Hoax. Pretty bad, apparently. Thought he was going to sh' his pants die.


----------



## Alli

Yoused said:


> “_*It's a HOAX!*_” Loudest anti-problem shouty voice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ted Nugent, who once dismissed Covid-19, tells fans he's tested positive for it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catches the Hoax. Pretty bad, apparently. Thought he was going to sh' his pants die.



Tots and pears, Ted.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

PBS reported 5,000 people still got COVID after getting vaccinated.  

My question is, is that kind of reporting going to cause more people who got the vaccine to be more cautious after getting it or is it going to add more fuel to the people who don’t plan to get vaccinated or were on the fence about getting vaccinated and after news like this now won’t?

Seems like the news enjoys putting out stories about vaccines not being effective or having horrific side effects.  I think we also need to bare in mind that a lot of people think they got the whole story from just the headline. They aren’t going to bother reading the near daily articles saying this is only happening with a tiny percentage of people.  

I feel this is industrywide irresponsible shit reporting.   There’s a huge perception difference between “some” and “a tiny percentage” and even then it seems like they have an extremely low trigger number to turn something into a major story for millions (billions in the national stage?) of people to be worried about.


----------



## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> *PBS reported 5,000 people still got COVID after getting vaccinated. *
> 
> My question is, is that kind of reporting going to cause more people who got the vaccine to be more cautious after getting it or is it going to add more fuel to the people who don’t plan to get vaccinated or were on the fence about getting vaccinated and after news like this now won’t?
> 
> Seems like the news enjoys putting out stories about vaccines not being effective or having horrific side effects.  I think we also need to bare in mind that a lot of people think they got the whole story from just the headline. They aren’t going to bother reading the near daily articles saying this is only happening with a tiny percentage of people.
> 
> I feel this is industrywide irresponsible shit reporting.   There’s a huge perception difference between “some” and “a tiny percentage” and even then it seems like they have an extremely low trigger number to turn something into a major story for millions (billions in the national stage?) of people to be worried about.



You've buried the lead here, which is: *that represents just 0.007% of the 84 million Americans with full protection against the virus*. When it comes to this virus let's do our best not to mis-represent and spin the facts. This is not even a drop in the bucket and is well within the what the CDC has claimed it to be.


----------



## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> You've buried the lead here, which is: *that represents just 0.007% of the 84 million Americans with full protection against the virus*. When it comes to this virus let's do our best not to mis-represent and spin the facts. This is not even a drop in the bucket and is well within the what the CDC has claimed it to be.



It's actually an INSANELY good stat:
Despite preferential vaccination of high risk people (!!!!), of COVID *hospitalizations* went down to 0.0005%!!!!


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

ericgtr12 said:


> You've buried the lead here, which is: *that represents just 0.007% of the 84 million Americans with full protection against the virus*. When it comes to this virus let's do our best not to mis-represent and spin the facts. This is not even a drop in the bucket and is well within the what the CDC has claimed it to be.




Did you read the rest of my post?  You seem to be agreeing with what I am complaining about. 

I can’t find the article but I assure you the title was nothing like “Only 0.007% get COVID after being vaccinated” 

In fact I can’t think of 0.007% of anything that deserves it’s own article with alarmist or detractor potential.

Its like when Fox News finds the 0.007% of scientists who are climate change deniers and gives them all the airtime.  How is that good reporting?


----------



## Yoused

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> How is that good reporting?




CNN piece:








						So far, 5,800 fully vaccinated people have caught Covid anyway in US, CDC says | CNN
					

About 5,800 people out of tens of millions who have been vaccinated against coronavirus have become infected anyway, the CDC tells CNN.




					www.cnn.com
				




Yeah, to a headline scanner, "5800" jumps out as a big number. They should probably not be doing that.

But, this vaccine is not perfect. It is like a bulletproof vest: you could still take a hit to the head. It does need to be said, just not inflammatorily.


----------



## User.45

Yoused said:


> CNN piece:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So far, 5,800 fully vaccinated people have caught Covid anyway in US, CDC says | CNN
> 
> 
> About 5,800 people out of tens of millions who have been vaccinated against coronavirus have become infected anyway, the CDC tells CNN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, to a headline scanner, "5800" jumps out as a big number. They should probably not be doing that.
> 
> But, this vaccine is not perfect. It is like a bulletproof vest: you could still take a hit to the head. It does need to be said, just not inflammatorily.



It's not the vaccine tho. It's people with really impaired immune systems.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Yoused said:


> CNN piece:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So far, 5,800 fully vaccinated people have caught Covid anyway in US, CDC says | CNN
> 
> 
> About 5,800 people out of tens of millions who have been vaccinated against coronavirus have become infected anyway, the CDC tells CNN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, to a headline scanner, "5800" jumps out as a big number. They should probably not be doing that.
> 
> But, this vaccine is not perfect. It is like a bulletproof vest: you could still take a hit to the head. It does need to be said, just not inflammatorily.




And that’s my point. Headlines like that just help the antivaxxers feel confident about their decision, and like I said, there are near daily such poorly titled headlines about the vaccines.  It's like journalists are now incapable of wrtitng a headline that isn't disingenuous clickbait no matter what topic.


----------



## Pumbaa

Yoused said:


> CNN piece:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So far, 5,800 fully vaccinated people have caught Covid anyway in US, CDC says | CNN
> 
> 
> About 5,800 people out of tens of millions who have been vaccinated against coronavirus have become infected anyway, the CDC tells CNN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, to a headline scanner, "5800" jumps out as a big number. They should probably not be doing that.
> 
> But, this vaccine is not perfect. It is like a bulletproof vest: you could still take a hit to the head. It does need to be said, just not inflammatorily.



Big numbers are usually misleading. Like when Trump boasted about using the military to deliver 200,000 doses per day. Sounds like a lot, an awesome effort, right? Until one does the math and realizes that it would take thousands of days to vaccinate the US at that rate...


----------



## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Did you read the rest of my post?  You seem to be agreeing with what I am complaining about.
> 
> I can’t find the article but I assure you the title was nothing like “Only 0.007% get COVID after being vaccinated”
> 
> In fact I can’t think of 0.007% of anything that deserves it’s own article with alarmist or detractor potential.
> 
> Its like when Fox News finds the 0.007% of scientists who are climate change deniers and gives them all the airtime.  How is that good reporting?



I did read it, and it was buried. The highlight of your post was clearly the number of breakthroughs when the reality is it's actually negligible in comparison.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> It's not the vaccine tho. It's people with really impaired immune systems.




You guys are missing the point.  You guys keep wanting to venture into the forest while a good percentage of readers aren't going to bother to go past the trees.

"Hey, Dale.  Says right here thousands of people are still getting the virus even after getting vaccinated.  I told you it was a government scam!"


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

ericgtr12 said:


> I did read it, and it was buried. The highlight of your post was clearly the number of breakthroughs when the reality is it's actually negligible in comparison.





Chew Toy McCoy said:


> You guys are missing the point.  You guys keep wanting to venture into the forest while a good percentage of readers aren't going to bother to go past the trees.
> 
> "Hey, Dale.  Says right here thousands of people are still getting the virus even after getting vaccinated.  I told you it was a government scam!"


----------



## DT

Pumbaa said:


> Big numbers are usually misleading. Like when Trump boasted about using the military to deliver *200,000* doses per day.




Well, that's about 199,990 higher than he can count, and yeah, I'm probably giving him TOO much credit ...


----------



## Yoused

DT said:


> Well, that's about 199,990 higher than he can count, and yeah, I'm probably giving him TOO much credit ...



"_*I'm a billionaire! I have more money than I can count!*_"


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> You guys are missing the point.  You guys keep wanting to venture into the forest while a good percentage of readers aren't going to bother to go past the trees.
> 
> "Hey, Dale.  Says right here thousands of people are still getting the virus even after getting vaccinated.  I told you it was a government scam!"



There's no saving people who only read headlines.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> There's no saving people who only read headlines.



I would argue that it sets the narrative that the publisher intends, there's a reason the acronym TLDR is one of the most popular today. The amount of media being pushed out each day via social media, news sites, etc. is like drinking from a firehose. it would be ideal if we all read entire articles but it's just not realistic to expect from people, that's why we see a headline with highlighted summaries.


----------



## SuperMatt

It was stated from the beginning that Moderna with 2 shots was 90% effective. That means 10% ineffective. So yeah, there will still be COVID-19. But if we get 90% of people with a 90% effective vaccine, it will be very hard for it to spread. That’s what herd immunity is all about. Increasing the chance that anybody who comes in contact with a carrier is immune, thereby stopping it from spreading. When enough people are immune, the chances of a carrier interacting with a non-immune person is very low, and that person interacting with other non-immune people even lower... so it becomes nearly impossible for the disease to spread widely.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> It was stated from the beginning that Moderna with 2 shots was 90% effective. That means 10% ineffective. So yeah, there will still be COVID-19. But if we get 90% of people with a 90% effective vaccine, it will be very hard for it to spread. That’s what herd immunity is all about. Increasing the chance that anybody who comes in contact with a carrier is immune, thereby stopping it from spreading. When enough people are immune, the chances of a carrier interacting with a non-immune person is very low, and that person interacting with other non-immune people even lower... so it becomes nearly impossible for the disease to spread widely.



What has been annoying me is that there is that 4th dimension. Moderna/Pfizer ~95% effective or the 1st 4 months. We don't know how much that efficacy drops at the 6th or 12th month. I completed my shots before Feb. I'll be in uncharted immunity territory by July.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> What has been annoying me is that there is that 4th dimension. Moderna/Pfizer ~95% effective or the 1st 4 months. We don't know how much that efficacy drops at the 6th or 12th month. I completed my shots before Feb. I'll be in uncharted immunity territory by July.



Yeah that's a big question, hopefully by then the risk will be reduced enough that we won't have to worry so much about catching it. It's surprising how quickly this vaccine came out with us knowing so little about the actual long term effects of the virus but you get why they acted. I'm just thankful they came up with it and that it's so efficacious and hopefully we'll get a booster or annual updates if that's what's needed.


----------



## shadow puppet

SuperMatt said:


> It was stated from the beginning that Moderna with 2 shots was 90% effective. That means 10% ineffective.



Not questioning you but do you know where the Moderna 90% efficiency was stated?  Mayo lists it as 94% with Pfizer as 95% and J&J 66%.





Source:









						Get the facts about COVID-19 vaccines
					

Find out about the COVID-19 vaccines, the benefits of COVID-19 vaccination and the possible side effects.




					www.mayoclinic.org


----------



## SuperMatt

shadow puppet said:


> Not questioning you but do you know where the Moderna 90% efficiency was stated?  Mayo lists it as 94% with Pfizer as 95% and J&J 66%.
> 
> View attachment 4650
> 
> Source:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get the facts about COVID-19 vaccines
> 
> 
> Find out about the COVID-19 vaccines, the benefits of COVID-19 vaccination and the possible side effects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mayoclinic.org



CDC’s website was where I saw it









						Interim Estimates of Vaccine Effectiveness of BNT162b2 and mRNA
					

mRNA COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness against SARS-CoV-2 infection




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> It was stated from the beginning that Moderna with 2 shots was 90% effective. That means 10% ineffective. So yeah, there will still be COVID-19. But if we get 90% of people with a 90% effective vaccine, it will be very hard for it to spread. That’s what herd immunity is all about. Increasing the chance that anybody who comes in contact with a carrier is immune, thereby stopping it from spreading. When enough people are immune, the chances of a carrier interacting with a non-immune person is very low, and that person interacting with other non-immune people even lower... so it becomes nearly impossible for the disease to spread widely.




And that’s why we don’t need the news media making headline stories insinuating the vaccinations are pointless because “thousands” have still gotten it after being vaccinated.  

Should that even be a news story? Sure.  But not in the way their well thought out headline is launching into it.


----------



## User.191

Well, I'm now 1 week after my second Pfizer dose and have zero ill effects.

Now, what to do with the Microsoft Surface devices I've found myself buying each day - and I've a strange desire to vote for the local communist party.

But I digress.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I’m not a doctor and even with doing zero research I could have written this article with complete confidence.









						Study: COVID-19-infected pregnant women at higher risk for complications
					

Pregnant women with COVID-19 are at increased risk for complications, such as high blood pressure, pre-eclampsia and preterm delivery, compared to those without the disease, a study published by JAMA Pediatrics found.




					www.upi.com
				




Has there ever been an illness or virus that actually made pregnancies go smoother? I’m going to say no, but I’m open to being corrected.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

This popped up on Flipboard this morning.









						You Might Make This Mistake When Getting Vaccinated, Experts Say
					

While the vaccine will be effective either way, you have a 50-50 shot of making this mistake when getting vaccinated.




					bestlifeonline.com
				




Seriously, WTF?

If this is true then why even give you the option?

Does it really require 8 paragraphs to let you know you should get it in your dominant arm?

When does “may want to” constitute a “mistake”?


----------



## Edd

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> This popped up on Flipboard this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You Might Make This Mistake When Getting Vaccinated, Experts Say
> 
> 
> While the vaccine will be effective either way, you have a 50-50 shot of making this mistake when getting vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bestlifeonline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, WTF?
> 
> If this is true then why even give you the option?
> 
> Does it really require 8 paragraphs to let you know you should get it in your dominant arm?
> 
> When does “may want to” constitute a “mistake”?



That article sucks. I use both of my arms daily . The fever I had tells me the vaccine processed just fine.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I’m not a doctor and even with doing zero research I could have written this article with complete confidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Study: COVID-19-infected pregnant women at higher risk for complications
> 
> 
> Pregnant women with COVID-19 are at increased risk for complications, such as high blood pressure, pre-eclampsia and preterm delivery, compared to those without the disease, a study published by JAMA Pediatrics found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.upi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has there ever been an illness or virus that actually made pregnancies go smoother? I’m going to say no, but I’m open to being corrected.



Nah, it’s the opposite. It’s not nearly as bad as what we anticipated. So there’s more reassurance here than alarm. It’s also nice because i can now refer to data on pregnancy risk. About 3 friends of mine had babies during the pandemic and even in September I couldn’t find great data on this when they asked me about risks


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1385994355815686144/


----------



## Pumbaa

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1385994355815686144/



Makes perfect sense. If I believed Trump himself created the vaccine I would strongly consider refusing it.


----------



## Edd

Oh look, a super spreader event. Guess which state it’s in?









						'Stupidity': America in disbelief over 'disturbing' scenes at UFC 261
					

The UFC has staged its first capacity crowd event since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic.




					au.sports.yahoo.com


----------



## Eric

Edd said:


> Oh look, a super spreader event. Guess which state it’s in?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Stupidity': America in disbelief over 'disturbing' scenes at UFC 261
> 
> 
> The UFC has staged its first capacity crowd event since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> au.sports.yahoo.com



I went to the mall yesterday to exchange my Apple Watch band and it was never busier, even before COVID. It's crazy out there right now but at least everyone was wearing masks and I have both doses now. FLA has no mandate and their people are nuts, it will be interesting to see if this fills up the hospitals or not.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Remember kids
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1386007173432496132/


----------



## Edd

Oh Tucker, you’re such a scamp.









						Fox News' Tucker Carlson suggests viewers call the cops on parents with masked children
					

No one enjoys wearing a face mask, and some medical experts are now saying people — especially vaccinated people — mostly don't need to wear them for non-intimate outdoor activities. The coronavirus does not spread as easily outdoors — though it could jump from human to human if, say, infected...




					news.yahoo.com
				




Related.









						'Is Tucker Carlson losing his mind?' Politico is just asking questions!
					

"Is Tucker Carlson losing his mind?" Politico's Playbook team asked Tuesday morning. "As careful students of his evening show, we've noticed that Carlson has gradually become more unhinged in recent weeks," devoting "enormous attention" to Jan. 6 insurrection truthers, laughing maniacally after...




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Remember kids
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1386007173432496132/



In Ohio for a job interview. Most people don't know how to wear a mask appropriately. It's quite impressive. They either don't wear it, pull it down to talk, nose sticking out etc. This includes people preparing food... 

This is why mask mandates have no impact anymore. Those who don't want to wear a mask just won't do it in a way that makes any sense.


----------



## Runs For Fun

P_X said:


> In Ohio for a job interview. Most people don't know how to wear a mask appropriately. It's quite impressive. They either don't wear it, pull it down to talk, nose sticking out etc. This includes people preparing food...
> 
> This is why mask mandates have no impact anymore. Those who don't want to wear a mask just won't do it in a way that makes any sense.



I have noticed this too and this could just be anecdotal evidence, but this seems to be happening way more only recently. Only in the last couple months have I noticed way more people not covering their nose, wearing it on their chin, etc. Before it seemed like people were pretty good about wearing masks properly.


----------



## SuperMatt

RunsForFun said:


> I have noticed this too and this could just be anecdotal evidence, but this seems to be happening way more only recently. Only in the last couple months have I noticed way more people not covering their nose, wearing it on their chin, etc. Before it seemed like people were pretty good about wearing masks properly.



Viruses are far smarter than humans.


----------



## User.45

RunsForFun said:


> I have noticed this too and this could just be anecdotal evidence, but this seems to be happening way more only recently. Only in the last couple months have I noticed way more people not covering their nose, wearing it on their chin, etc. Before it seemed like people were pretty good about wearing masks properly.



There seems to be a quite heavy regional variability of people wearing masks.
By the way, avoid Southwest at any cost. Since March, they are feeling middle seats, So combine it with first come first serve seating it’s just the best set up to mix parties unnecessarily.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> Since March, they are feeling middle seats




Really?  Can I pay more and sit in the middle?


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> Really?  Can I pay more and sit in the middle?



Lol. I’m the only millennial failing at touchscreens badly.  I’m just not feeling it


----------



## JayMysteri0

I wonder if this would trigger anyone
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1387350455496347655/


----------



## Edd

JayMysteri0 said:


> I wonder if this would trigger anyone
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1387350455496347655/



This is likely the way forward.


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> I wonder if this would trigger anyone
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1387350455496347655/



From a Republican Governor no less, we should give credit where credit is due.


----------



## Alli

ericgtr12 said:


> From a Republican Governor no less, we should give credit where credit is due.



Part of the problem is we always give credit where credit is due. Then come the Republicans and try to take credit for something the Dems did despite the fact that they voted against it!


----------



## JayMysteri0

Whadafuq?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1388156897698721803/


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Whadafuq?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1388156897698721803/



She'd be shocked what's Botox made of. She also wasn't too afraid of getting some collagen pumped in her mouth. Apparently this isn't really about the fear of needles.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Interesting contrast yesterday.

The NFL Draft, held in Cleveland over three days, required fans to wear masks. It wasn't universally followed, but I'd say more fans did than didn't. There were crowds, but there was also space to move around.

The Kentucky Derby, held several hundred miles to the south, also had Covid precautions, but you'd be hard pressed to be able to tell. Supposedly the stands were filled to only 40% capacity, but it sure looked like that 40% were all crammed shoulder to shoulder in the lower sections. And hardly a mask to be seen, despite the closeness. The only people I saw consistently wearing masks were the broadcasters covering the race.

Such is the difference between northern Ohio and all of Kentucky, I guess.


----------



## thekev

P_X said:


> She'd be shocked what's Botox made of. She also wasn't too afraid of getting some collagen pumped in her mouth. Apparently this isn't really about the fear of needles.




That video is really asking for a lawsuit. She looks like they added dermal fillers too. I wonder what she would think of the ingredients used in some of those.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Edd said:


> This is likely the way forward.



So now we’re paying people to do the right thing?

I’m not saying I’m against this, but it does show how low we’ve sunk.

Next we’ll be paying people to not drive drunk.


----------



## Edd

Thomas Veil said:


> So now we’re paying people to do the right thing?
> 
> I’m not saying I’m against this, but it does show how low we’ve sunk.
> 
> Next we’ll be paying people to not drive drunk.



Yeah, special circumstances here. I dislike it personally but, people are cunts, what can I say?


----------



## SuperMatt

Because of new virus variants and the fact that we have people that refuse the vaccine, it’s unlikely reaching herd immunity of 80% will be possible.









						Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe (Published 2021)
					

Widely circulating coronavirus variants and persistent hesitancy about vaccines will keep the goal out of reach. The virus is here to stay, but vaccinating the most vulnerable may be enough to restore normalcy.




					www.nytimes.com
				




When the human race becomes extinct someday, it will be due to our own stupidity.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Because of new virus variants and the fact that we have people that refuse the vaccine, it’s unlikely reaching herd immunity of 80% will be possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> Widely circulating coronavirus variants and persistent hesitancy about vaccines will keep the goal out of reach. The virus is here to stay, but vaccinating the most vulnerable may be enough to restore normalcy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the human race becomes extinct someday, it will be due to our own stupidity.



Facebook...


----------



## User.45

P_X said:


> Facebook...



Just to clarify, Facebook heralded the anti-vaxx movement in country of origin. It also reversed a >95% acceptance rate to like <80% over a matter of a year. Horrific.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> Just to clarify, Facebook heralded the anti-vaxx movement in country of origin. It also reversed a >95% acceptance rate to like <80% over a matter of a year. Horrific.



I think it’s a confluence of right-wing media (and politicians) constantly repeating the mantra that long-time reliable news sources are lying. People buy into that, and then look for new sources of information. Of course I should trust the system that gives me pictures of my grandkids and stories from my friends! Why would there be lies on such a system?

I wonder if that’s part of it?


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I think it’s a confluence of right-wing media (and politicians) constantly repeating the mantra that long-time reliable news sources are lying. People buy into that, and then look for new sources of information. Of course I should trust the system that gives me pictures of my grandkids and stories from my friends! Why would there be lies on such a system?
> 
> I wonder if that’s part of it?



They have a crazy right wing administration that devoured 95% of mainstream media. So there, Facebook constitutes an alternative avenue for suppressed information. So there it's also a system that gives them legitimate info based on leaks the government is hiding.  It’s fucked up.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Thomas Veil said:


> So now we’re paying people to do the right thing?
> 
> I’m not saying I’m against this, but it does show how low we’ve sunk.
> 
> Next we’ll be paying people to not drive drunk.



If you paid in drinks?    

You might be on to something.

Next night's opening round on the house!


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> If you paid in drinks?
> 
> You might be on to something.
> 
> Next night's opening round on the house!



Reuters featured Cannabis activists giving away free joints if you show you got a shot. It really baffled me...CBD is an anti-inflammatory that could significant impact on the efficacy of the vaccines... There's some data showing reducing the efficacy of cancer immunotherapy by ~30%. So on one end it seems awesome treating pain and inflammation, but it may be detrimental when inflammation is beneficial for the treatment effect.


----------



## JayMysteri0

P_X said:


> Reuters featured Cannabis activists giving away free joints if you show you got a shot. It really baffled me...CBD is an anti-inflammatory that could significant impact on the efficacy of the vaccines... There's some data showing reducing the efficacy of cancer immunotherapy by ~30%. So on one end it seems awesome treating pain and inflammation, but it may be detrimental when inflammation is beneficial for the treatment effect.



IF you could point me to where those free joints were given.

I just got my second shot Friday.

Thanx in advance.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Reminder:  These are SOME of the people who got shit on in all aspects of anything Covid related.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1388920848505970688/


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> IF you could point me to where those free joints were given.
> 
> I just got my second shot Friday.
> 
> Thanx in advance.



DC


----------



## JayMysteri0

P_X said:


> DC








awesome.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> awesome.











						"Joints For Jabs" Press Release - DC Marijuana Justice
					

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE January 11, 2021 CONTACT: ADAM EIDINGER (202)744-2671 Adam@DCMJ.org ‘Joints for Jabs’ DC Marijuana Justice to Reward Free Cannabis at Vaccination Sites Across the District of Columbia in Spring 2021 Wildly Popular Joint Giveaway At Inauguration Rescheduled to Summer...



					dcmj.org


----------



## JayMysteri0

P_X said:


> "Joints For Jabs" Press Release - DC Marijuana Justice
> 
> 
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE January 11, 2021 CONTACT: ADAM EIDINGER (202)744-2671 Adam@DCMJ.org ‘Joints for Jabs’ DC Marijuana Justice to Reward Free Cannabis at Vaccination Sites Across the District of Columbia in Spring 2021 Wildly Popular Joint Giveaway At Inauguration Rescheduled to Summer...
> 
> 
> 
> dcmj.org



Great.

Free joints.

At a place you couldn't pay me to go back to again.


----------



## thekev

P_X said:


> Reuters featured Cannabis activists giving away free joints if you show you got a shot. It really baffled me...CBD is an anti-inflammatory that could significant impact on the efficacy of the vaccines... There's some data showing reducing the efficacy of cancer immunotherapy by ~30%. So on one end it seems awesome treating pain and inflammation, but it may be detrimental when inflammation is beneficial for the treatment effect.




They may be unaware that some of the stuff in vaccines is meant to induce a reaction.



JayMysteri0 said:


> Great.
> 
> Free joints.
> 
> At a place you couldn't pay me to go back to again.




You mean DC?


----------



## JayMysteri0

thekev said:


> You mean DC?



Yes.

I don't have pleasant memories of my times there.

And I didn't even get to participate in an insurrection.


----------



## thekev

JayMysteri0 said:


> Yes.
> 
> I don't have pleasant memories of my times there.
> 
> And I didn't even get to participate in an insurrection.




It doesn't seem like you missed much. The dynamic of mobs is kind of weird. Many of them seemed to assume they would be okay simply because they saw others doing the same shit. The museums are decent though.


----------



## SuperMatt

This article in the Atlantic interviews opposers of the COVID vaccine, and finds the same thing many of us learned from speaking with right-wing devotées about COVID-19.



> The coronavirus is a wildly overrated threat. Yes, it’s appropriate and good to protect old and vulnerable people. But I’m not old or vulnerable. If I get it, I’ll be fine. In fact, maybe I have gotten it, and I _am_ fine. I don’t know why I should consider this disease more dangerous than driving a car, a risky thing I do every day without a moment’s worry. Liberals, Democrats, and public-health elites have been so wrong so often, we’d be better off doing the opposite of almost everything they say.





> “I’ve lost all faith in the media and public-health officials,” Myles Pindus, a 24-year-old in Brooklyn, said. “It might sound crazy, but I’d rather go to Twitter and check out a few people I trust than take guidance from the CDC, or WHO, or Fauci,”











						Millions Are Saying No to the Vaccines. What Are They Thinking?
					

Feelings about the vaccine are intertwined with feelings about the pandemic.




					www.theatlantic.com
				




COVID-19 has an ally in this battle. Human tribalism and stupidity.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> This article in the Atlantic interviews opposers of the COVID vaccine, and finds the same thing many of us learned from speaking with right-wing devotées about COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Millions Are Saying No to the Vaccines. What Are They Thinking?
> 
> 
> Feelings about the vaccine are intertwined with feelings about the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 has an ally in this battle. Human tribalism and stupidity.



The privilege is just astounding. It largely started with the Zika epidemic. Obama's admin launched its collab in 2016 given a contract to Moderna to develop an mRNA based vaccine against Zika. Now we have tech and clinical trial designs that revolutionized vaccine creation in just a year...Transformation that would have taken decades took a year. It's absolutely amazing. It's only a matter of time that we'll have vaccines against the common cold even. Average Joe's response: nothankyou.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> The privilege is just astounding. It largely started with the Zika epidemic. Obama's admin launched its collab in 2016 given a contract to Moderna to develop an mRNA based vaccine against Zika. Now we have tech and clinical trial designs that revolutionized vaccine creation in just a year...Transformation that would have taken decades took a year. It's absolutely amazing. It's only a matter of time that we'll have vaccines against the common cold even. Average Joe's response: nothankyou.



They really think they are better than scientists who studied this their whole lives and actually invented the vaccines. It is truly appalling to me. As a professional musician, I’ve come to expect the idiotic comments about it not being a real job, or that anybody can sing, etc. But to see the same attitude towards the world’s top scientists? Truly incredible.


----------



## SuperMatt

Continuing this anti-intellectual thread, here is an article from Isaac Asimov, written for Newsweek in 1980.



			https://media.aphelis.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ASIMOV_1980_Cult_of_Ignorance.pdf


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> They really think they are better than scientists who studied this their whole lives and actually invented the vaccines. It is truly appalling to me. As a professional musician, I’ve come to expect the idiotic comments about it not being a real job, or that anybody can sing, etc. But to see the same attitude towards the world’s top scientists? Truly incredible.



I can see why people don't trust scientists. Quite simply put, most just don't know any in person.
Some people think it's a separate class of out-of-touch people, so they prefer connecting with the Twidiot they think they know.


----------



## SuperMatt

So, Republicans were perfectly ok with the PPP loans when it came to COVID relief, but they whined about extended unemployment benefits being an unfair government handout? Let’s get real. They are ok with government handouts as long as they are made to people that are already rich:









						Covid Relief Funds Fueled a High-Performance Shopping Spree, Prosecutors Say (Published 2021)
					

A California man was indicted on charges that he used money from the Paycheck Protection Program to buy a Lamborghini, a Ferrari and a Bentley, federal authorities said.




					www.nytimes.com
				




Yep, this is the type of stuff the PPP was spent on. This guy is in trouble, but we know there’s a very high probability that there are 10 people getting away with this fraud for every one they catch. But sure, spending on unemployment so people can feed their kids or keep their house is an evil big-government handout. Seriously... when will people wise up and stop voting for the Republicans?

PS - Buying a Lamborghini is apparently the favorite thing to do with fraudulently obtained PPP money...



> Mr. Qadiri is accused of using that money to go on a spending spree that included buying a Ferrari, a Lamborghini and a Bentley and paying for “lavish vacations,” all of which are prohibited under the Payment Protection Program, prosecutors said.



and


> Numerous people have been arrested and charged with misusing pandemic relief funds. Mr. Qadiri is at least the third person to face charges specifying the purchase of a Lamborghini.
> 
> In July, a man in Florida who received nearly $4 million was arrested on bank fraud and other charges after buying a blue Lamborghini for $318,497, federal prosecutors said. In August, a man in Texas who received more than $1.6 million from the same federal program was arrested on bank fraud and other charges after buying, among other things, a 2019 Lamborghini Urus, for $233,337.60, prosecutors said.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.45

theSeb said:


> I've not been following this thread too closely, so I apologise if these have been discussed already, but if you need some "follow the science" type links to help persuade idiots about masks, these are quite handy
> 
> "Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus"
> http://jasaburningcd.com/core/fileparse ... co-ADA.pdf
> 
> "Association of Country-wide Coronavirus Mortality with Demographics, Testing, Lockdowns, and Public Wearing of Masks"
> https://www.ajtmh.org/view/journals/tpm ... -p2400.xml
> 
> "Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers"
> https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/M20-6817



DANMASK-19 was an absolutely terribly designed study. They overestimated the effect size by many folds, then conducted the study after a lockdown during the summer when the cases were down. So when they didn't reach statistical significance, people like vrDrew on MR drew the conclusion that masks don't work, when in reality, the study was so severely underpowered so it managed to answer none of the questions it was intended to answer. I'm still pissed at the group who did the study, these are clinical trial design 101 level errors. My mentor always says, if you design a trial, you'd better make sure it answers your damn question. Otherwise you'll have wasted everybody's time. At worst you may even piss people off by forcing impractical standards on those who want to adhere to the shoddy evidence you've generated.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Yup.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1392959997668175881/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1392952564514238467/

I'm going to trust people who are willing to go online & spout bullshit?

I'll play it safe a little longer thank you, because it doesn't hurt anyone.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Yup.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1392959997668175881/
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1392952564514238467/
> 
> I'm going to trust people who are willing to go online & spout bullshit?
> 
> I'll play it safe a little longer thank you, because it doesn't hurt anyone.



Here's what's gonna happen: antivaxxers will perpetuate the pandemic amongst each other, so even though those of us vaccinated protect them as well, they'll be the ones dying, so yes we are going to come back to personal responsibility and if they wanna die, sure, but I don't want to share costs of their medical care. 

I'm not that concerned about variants...I mean I  am, but we can be the most compliant little scouts here, when India currently is brewing new variants no matter what we do here. Pandemics know no borders, so interventions should not either, so it's a mutual interest to help India fix their outbreak.


----------



## shadow puppet

So my main grocery market, Trader Joe's, has dropped the mask requirement for vaccinated people.  I'm not so sure about this.  So we're on the honor system now?  The CDC has said there can be breakthrough Covid infections in vaccinated people.  

For now, I will continue wearing my mask to the market.


----------



## Eric

shadow puppet said:


> So my main grocery market, Trader Joe's, has dropped the mask requirement for vaccinated people.  I'm not so sure about this.  So we're on the honor system now?  The CDC has said there can be breakthrough Covid infections in vaccinated people.
> 
> For now, I will continue wearing my mask to the market.



^ This. I will be dong the same and just accept that there will be those unmasked and call it good. The doctor they interviewed on ABC News last night was asked about unvaccinated people and she was pretty direct in saying something like they only pose a risk to themselves but vaccinated people are all but safe. 

Considering the breakthrough cases are statistically a small drop in the bucket I'm feeling pretty safe about things right now, will just protect myself when I'm in unknown locations. I don't see any of these stores checking unmasked people for proof so we have to be our own best advocates here.


----------



## Clix Pix

In the Commonwealth of Virginia our governor today announced that as of 12:01 AM May 15, 2021, the mask mandate is lifted.  Vaccinated people will not need to wear them most places.  However, people will still need to wear them in certain situations such as visiting someone in a nursing home or hospital and I think also on public transportation.   In another surprise, he also said that assuming all goes well that rather than waiting until June 15th to lift all other restrictions he will do that on May 28th, which is also actually the start of the US Memorial Day weekend.

However, stores and businesses do have the prerogative to still require the wearing of masks on their premises, and I imagine that some will continue with this practice.  I am definitely intending to continue wearing a mask to the grocery store or to other potentially busy places filled with strangers whose vaccination status I don't know.   There are still a lot of people out there who haven't had their jab yet and many who don't intend to do so.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1393431810667855875/


----------



## Edd

Not great for the purposes of convincing folks to get vaccinated but, nobody claimed the vaccine was foolproof.









						Bill Maher tests positive for COVID-19
					

No other staff or crew members have tested positive, the show said.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## User.45

Edd said:


> Not great for the purposes of convincing folks to get vaccinated but, nobody claimed the vaccine was foolproof.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Maher tests positive for COVID-19
> 
> 
> No other staff or crew members have tested positive, the show said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com



That's fine. The vaccines protect you from symptomatic disease, which he reportedly does not have. If they tested all 160K people on the phase III trial weekly, the case count would have been much higher and the studies would have been much harder to interpret but also much more expensive. Symptomatic cases, hospitalizations and deaths were the object of study and that's all that matters on a large scale. 

BTW, he really does a good job alienating the medical community. I've not seen him having a reputable guest from the health sciences field for a reason. Like he had two PhDs talking about how people should not take the mRNA vaccines and that COVID is made in a lab. I look them up and let's just say there's a reason they didn't survive in academia...


----------



## Edd

P_X said:


> BTW, he really does a good job alienating the medical community. I've not seen him having a reputable guest from the health sciences field for a reason. Like he had two PhDs talking about how people should not take the mRNA vaccines and that COVID is made in a lab. I look them up and let's just say there's a reason they didn't survive in academia...



I think I remember them. They were a couple, correct? I think we googled them as well and it wasn’t great.

Maher strikes me as correct about many things but I dislike his guest choices sometimes. Megyn Kelly and Sharon Osborne? Fucking please.


----------



## User.45

Edd said:


> I think I remember them. They were a couple, correct? I think we googled them as well and it wasn’t great.



Yup. Them. All you do is look them up in Google Scholar, and their scientific output has been underwhelming. Let's just say I am a few times more qualified to make statements on my field than the two combined, and I would not make such bold statements without very strong corroboration. (Scientific output isn't the best measure, like there was that psychologist with the power pose TED talk, who got >10K citations and her study could not have been reproduced..., but it's still a good measure to spot noobs). 



Edd said:


> I think I remember them. They were a couple, correct? I think we googled them as well and it wasn’t great.
> 
> Maher strikes me as correct about many things but I dislike his guest choices sometimes. Megyn Kelly and Sharon Osborne? Fucking please.



He's very often super wrong in his medicine-related statements. Like cannabis advocacy is great, someone who conveniently forgets that smoking joints on the regular doubles lung cancer risk is not a person to take medical advice from


----------



## JayMysteri0

Edd said:


> I think I remember them. They were a couple, correct? I think we googled them as well and it wasn’t great.
> 
> Maher strikes me as correct about many things but I dislike his guest choices sometimes. Megyn Kelly and Sharon Osborne? Fucking please.



Basically if you need to go on the "I'm not racist apology tour", Maher's show is the first one your agent books.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Basically if you need to go on the "I'm not racist apology tour", Maher's show is the first one your agent books.



Sharon Osborne's discussion (the last of these shows that I watched) backfired as fuck. She said something along the lines of "nobody's perfect, there is good and bad in all races". That was like the most racist shit I've heard in a while... Becoming a martyr for defending Pierce Morgan?! That guy sounds like a heap of horse manure with a monocle.


----------



## lizkat

JayMysteri0 said:


> Basically if you need to go on the "I'm not racist apology tour", Maher's show is the first one your agent books.




I can't even think about Bill Maher without Ann Coulter popping uninvited into my brain.

But she invariably demos only the vast difference in English usage between *apologizing* and *being an apologist*.


----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## Runs For Fun

I had a feeling we would actually see something like this.  

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1394065101133602817/


----------



## SuperMatt

RunsForFun said:


> I had a feeling we would actually see something like this.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1394065101133602817/



Somebody should show that to Hurt. He’d probably begrudgingly put his mask back on. As much as he hates masks, he hates the idea of being seen as a liberal more, I bet.


----------



## Edd

My town just ended their mask ordinance! Very curious to see how quickly the restaurants will adjust.


----------



## Eric

Edd said:


> My town just ended their mask ordinance! Very curious to see how quickly the restaurants will adjust.



It's a personal thing for us (and many I suspect) actually going into a restaurant to dine. We've finally made plans with some friends to do it next week, although they do have outdoor seating as well but we're not sure how it will go. 

There's no guarantee that everyone will be vaccinated but in California the positivity rate just fell below 1% for the first time since the pandemic started, more than 2/3 are now vaccinated and we still have a mask mandate (which is probably why it's so low here) so we're feeling pretty good about it.


----------



## User.45

I kinda gave up on being totally up to date on COVID stuff but here my assessment on masks and mask mandates:
1. The use of masks correlates with better pandemic control. At this point it's both supported by:
- physics experiments (barrier testing showing reduced droplet travel and count), 
- biochemical studies showing reduced viral particles below in vitro infectability, 
- biological studies (in lab animals mask-like barriers reduced transmissions), 
- retrospective medical studies (from the SARS-1 pandemic), 
- prospective data from hospital workers and self-reported adherence data from large (>100K) surveys.

That's almost all the levels of evidence you need. A study like DANMASK-19 could have completed the picture, but (besides the noob errors) such study is very hard to ethically execute (meaning, on a larger scale you can't use a control group where you tell people not to wear masks, when the above evidence is already piling and suggesting that you'd hurt the people in the control arm). 
--------
2. The pandemic and policy interventions should be evaluated in waves, so it's generally not black and white. 
- There is a consensus that the global pandemic response was abysmal even before the 1st wave hit and I think it was mainly luck for some countries like Czechia to avoid it. 
- The second wave was avoidable as seen per the EU data vs. the USA. This is where policy did make a difference. Mask mandates (could have) played a crucial role here:


 
(Note that the counties with the mask mandates were the highest populated, so if we compared matching groups with matched population density, the differences would have been even more striking.)








						Trends in County-Level COVID-19 Incidence in Counties With and Without a Mask Mandate — Kansas, June 1–August 23, 2020
					






					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



- The third wave was again somewhat inevitable (it's a seasonal virus after all), but again could have been mitigated.
- For the 4th wave it again became a policy/implementation game. Countries on top of vaccinations averted it. You can look at the EU vs. the USA here. This is also the first time in the pandemic where we did quite well!
----------
3. Now if you look at the policies on masking, you can also see that in the newest studies mask mandates lost their impact, but adherence to masking DID NOT. By now, a 10% increase in self-reported mask adherence was associated with a 3.5x higher (!!!) likelihood of pandemic control, yet mask mandates did not reach a statistical significance in increasing self-reported mask adherence.
To translate this, Rand Paul and ilk would try to spin this as "mask mandates don't work". In reality, it's more like _"mask mandates don't motivate people to wear masks [good leadership does]". _Part of it is being influencers (I count politicians here) telling people that masks don't work do significant damage. 








						Mask-wearing and control of SARS-CoV-2 transmission in the USA: a cross-sectional study
					

Face masks have become commonplace across the USA because of the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) epidemic. Although evide…




					www.sciencedirect.com


----------



## Alli

I was rather impressed over the last week down in Florida, how the majority are still wearing masks and the number of places requiring masks on entry. In Florida!


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> I was rather impressed over the last week down in Florida, how the majority are still wearing masks and the number of places requiring masks on entry. In Florida!



Regardless of crazy right wing Governors, the people still have fears of going into public places unmasked and it's up to business owners to make their patrons feel safe.


----------



## DT

JayMysteri0 said:


> IF you could point me to where those free joints were given.
> 
> I just got my second shot Friday.
> 
> Thanx in advance.




I got 20 shots, so I have a huge baggie of weed ...


----------



## JayMysteri0

Because we KNOW this will become a thing...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1395568399359479811/

"The more you know"

Ooohhhh, it will be a thing.  Some will be determined to make it so...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1395546822572077060/

Thus proving why an honor system for those without honor may not be the brightest idea.


----------



## JayMysteri0

DT said:


> I got 20 shots, so I have a huge baggie of weed ...


----------



## Edd

JayMysteri0 said:


> Because we KNOW this will become a thing...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1395568399359479811/
> 
> "The more you know"
> 
> Ooohhhh, it will be a thing.  Some will be determined to make it so...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1395546822572077060/
> 
> Thus proving why an honor system for those without honor may not be the brightest idea.



This post inspired me to take a picture of my vax card and add it to the Notes app. I’ve no expectation of needing it but


----------



## JayMysteri0

Edd said:


> This post inspired me to take a picture of my vax card and add it to the Notes app. I’ve no expectation of needing it but



They do recommend taking a picture of your card for your phone.

Evidently for some it's a pain in the ass to get a new one, if yours is lost or something.

As long as others aren't taking a picture of it, it's no big deal supposedly.


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> Because we KNOW this will become a thing...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1395568399359479811/
> 
> "The more you know"
> 
> Ooohhhh, it will be a thing.  Some will be determined to make it so...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1395546822572077060/
> 
> Thus proving why an honor system for those without honor may not be the brightest idea.



If someone cites HIPAA laws when asking for proof of their vaccine, then just assume they're not vaccinated.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Eric said:


> If someone cites HIPAA laws when asking for proof of their vaccine, then just assume they're not vaccinated.



You know what they say...

"There's NO honor amongst anti - vaxxers"


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Because we KNOW this will become a thing...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1395568399359479811/
> 
> "The more you know"
> 
> Ooohhhh, it will be a thing.  Some will be determined to make it so...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1395546822572077060/
> 
> Thus proving why an honor system for those without honor may not be the brightest idea.



HIPAA 101, don't take advice from someone calling it Hippa


----------



## Runs For Fun

P_X said:


> HIPAA 101, don't take advice from someone calling it Hippa



I was just going to point that out lol.


----------



## SuperMatt

Hungry Hungry Hippas


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Hungry Hungry Hippas
> View attachment 5313



As a medical professional I can tell you that nothing can end you career quicker than a major HIPAA violation, so those HIPAAs are as vicious as their real-life counterparts. 


----
If my daughter's school can ask for vaccination records, a shop can too and that's fair. Some people really enjoy turning themselves into walking breathing biohazards.


----------



## shadow puppet

JayMysteri0 said:


> IF you could point me to where those free joints were given.
> 
> I just got my second shot Friday.
> 
> Thanx in advance.



One word:  Edibles.  You can thank me later.


----------



## lizkat

Emerging sign that people are once again out and about and sampling the world at large,  after getting their covid-19 vaccinations and seeing air temperatures in the region finally hit the 70ºF mark for a few days running:   local paper sported an ad today from one of the car dealers over in town,  not pitching cars but making a plea in the Help Wanted section.  

*"Now Hiring Collision Center Technicians and Apprentices"*​


----------



## Thomas Veil

Edd said:


> This post inspired me to take a picture of my vax card and add it to the Notes app. I’ve no expectation of needing it but



That’s almost the first thing I did when I got my two shots: stored the card on my phone.

I wish you could save it in Wallet.


----------



## Alli

Thomas Veil said:


> I wish you could save it in Wallet.



I’ll bet that’s coming.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> I’ll bet that’s coming.



There really should be a nationalized system for verification but unfortunately it's become political which is ridiculous. There should be a simple and universal way to verify, if you don't want the vaccine then fine, you can't do certain things but don't penalize everyone else who has done the right thing.


----------



## Pumbaa

Eric said:


> There really should be a nationalized system for verification but unfortunately it's become political which is ridiculous. There should be a simple and universal way to verify, if you don't want the vaccine then fine, you can't do certain things but don't penalize everyone else who has done the right thing.



Yeah, you guys are pretty messed up over there, no question about it.

Looking forward to see how the EU ’vaccine passport’ will work out.


----------



## SuperMatt

We’re on the honor system here. 74 million people voted for a proven pathological liar. What could go wrong?


----------



## Pumbaa

SuperMatt said:


> We’re on the honor system here. 74 million people voted for a proven pathological liar. What could go wrong?



The proven pathological liar got 74 million votes. Given the traditional projection and claims about election fraud, I’m not so sure anymore that it means 74 million people actually voted for the proven pathological liar…

That said, I’m sure the people getting fake medical exemption cards to bypass mask requirements will be totally honest about  their vaccinations. At least some of them will be too anti-vax to lie about having gotten a jab.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> We’re on the honor system here. 74 million people voted for a proven pathological liar. What could go wrong?



The rest of us will have to step up to get to herd immunity to protect them, there's no other way. The selfish win to live another day so they can keeping bitching about how Liberals are ruining the world.


----------



## Thomas Veil

SuperMatt said:


> We’re on the honor system here. 74 million people voted for a proven pathological liar. What could go wrong?



Believe me, I have thought about that as Ohio is about to drop all its mask mandates.

At work we're talking about how we're going to deal with it, and we pretty much think we're going to continue to wear masks when we're in close contact with customers...not because we want to, but because we frankly don't trust that everybody who says they're vaccinated really is. A population that is as heavily invested in their own alternate reality as ours is, is not really compatible with the honor system.

Which, I suppose, makes us prisoners of the stupid. But there it is.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> There really should be a nationalized system for verification but unfortunately it's become political which is ridiculous. There should be a simple and universal way to verify, if you don't want the vaccine then fine, you can't do certain things but don't penalize everyone else who has done the right thing



This should work like this:
You'll need an antibody level verification that is <6 months old. If you aren't willing to provide it or negative, then you should provide proof of vaccination. This is more or less what we do with measles or HepB in healthcare.


----------



## User.45

Thomas Veil said:


> Believe me, I have thought about that as Ohio is about to drop all its mask mandates.
> 
> At work we're talking about how we're going to deal with it, and we pretty much think we're going to continue to wear masks when we're in close contact with customers...not because we want to, but because we frankly don't trust that everybody who says they're vaccinated really is. A population that is as heavily invested in their own alternate reality as ours is, is not really compatible with the honor system.
> 
> Which, I suppose, makes us prisoners of the stupid. But there it is.



During our recent visit to Cleveland we were shocked to see how many didn't wear masks (properly) at food places.

That said, my favorite thing about Trumpists, is they fixate on "Fauci lied, do you research", but never provide actual evidence that Fauci lied. But absolutely despicable self-admitted lies from Trump about COVID are found totally acceptable. Really blows my mind how they are able to keep two absolutely incompatible parallel standards running at the same time.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> During our recent visit to Cleveland we were shocked to see how many didn't wear masks (properly) at food places.
> 
> That said, my favorite thing about Trumpists, is they fixate on "Fauci lied, do you research", but never provide actual evidence that Fauci lied. But absolutely despicable self-admitted lies from Trump about COVID are found totally acceptable. Really blows my mind how they are able to run two absolutely incompatible parallel standards running at the same time.



It is the anti-intellectual movement. If Einstein couldn’t name the starting quarterback of their favorite football team, they’d think “see he doesn’t know everything…”

Trump encourages this, so they love him.


----------



## Thomas Veil

P_X said:


> ...That said, my favorite thing about Trumpists, is they fixate on "Fauci lied, do you research", but never provide actual evidence that Fauci lied.



If they do supply their "research", it turns out to be fabricated BS from some fly-by-night "news" source or some questionable "authority".

Which means you end up looking up that "research" yourself so you can debunk it with factual information...and they in turn tell you why that information is not to be trusted, which goads you to prove why it _is_...

...and on and on and hideously on.

Which is why in years past I'd actually argue points with people. Though they might not want to accept it, it was easy enough to show that Saddam did not in fact have the WMD Bush claimed he did. Try to take that tactic about the vaccine with a Q supporter, and all you end up doing is falling down a conspiratorial rabbit hole of ever-diminishing logic and reason.

And who has that kind of time?

That's why, at MR, I sort of gave up and began responding to that kind of idiocy with mockery. 

You can imagine how that went down with the current mods.

It's not that I set out to be a hit-and-run troll. I'll discuss anything with someone who can be reasoned with, and I'll back down when I'm wrong. It's just that prolonged arguments with _those_ kinds of people are akin to trying to sweep the beach clean of sand.


----------



## SuperMatt

Thomas Veil said:


> If they do supply their "research", it turns out to be fabricated BS from some fly-by-night "news" source or some questionable "authority".
> 
> Which means you end up looking up that "research" yourself so you can debunk it with factual information...and they in turn tell you why that information is not to be trusted, which goads you to prove why it _is_...
> 
> ...and on and on and hideously on.
> 
> Which is why in years past I'd actually argue points with people. Though they might not want to accept it, it was easy enough to show that Saddam did not in fact have the WMD Bush claimed he did. Try to take that tactic about the vaccine with a Q supporter, and all you end up doing is falling down a conspiratorial rabbit hole of ever-diminishing logic and reason.
> 
> And who has that kind of time?
> 
> That's why, at MR, I sort of gave up and began responding to that kind of idiocy with mockery.
> 
> You can imagine how that went down with the current mods.
> 
> It's not that I set out to be a hit-and-run troll. I'll discuss anything with someone who can be reasoned with, and I'll back down when I'm wrong. It's just that prolonged arguments with _those_ kinds of people are akin to trying to sweep the beach clean of sand.



Yeah, some guy was posting stuff from the QAnon-related “Swiss Policy Research” website and calling it peer-reviewed scientific studies.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> It is the anti-intellectual movement. If Einstein couldn’t name the starting quarterback of their favorite football team, they’d think “see he doesn’t know everything…”
> 
> Trump encourages this, so they love him.



Republicans definitely got behind anti-intellectualism, which is ironic considering that the loudest people from there tend to have degrees from top 10 colleges/universities.



Thomas Veil said:


> If they do supply their "research", it turns out to be fabricated BS from some fly-by-night "news" source or some questionable "authority".
> 
> Which means you end up looking up that "research" yourself so you can debunk it with factual information...and they in turn tell you why that information is not to be trusted, which goads you to prove why it _is_...
> 
> ...and on and on and hideously on.
> 
> Which is why in years past I'd actually argue points with people. Though they might not want to accept it, it was easy enough to show that Saddam did not in fact have the WMD Bush claimed he did. Try to take that tactic about the vaccine with a Q supporter, and all you end up doing is falling down a conspiratorial rabbit hole of ever-diminishing logic and reason.
> 
> And who has that kind of time?
> 
> That's why, at MR, I sort of gave up and began responding to that kind of idiocy with mockery.
> 
> You can imagine how that went down with the current mods.
> 
> It's not that I set out to be a hit-and-run troll. I'll discuss anything with someone who can be reasoned with, and I'll back down when I'm wrong. It's just that prolonged arguments with _those_ kinds of people are akin to trying to sweep the beach clean of sand.



My MR Frenemy used to bash me for criticizing Trumps piss poor leadership on COVID, but he mentioned Fauci about 10 times and told me I'm appealing to authority, when I told him how ridiculous Rand Paul looks when he's trying to lecture the most cited ID physician in the world who also happens to be the chief editor of Harrison's the #1 Internal Medicine textbook on the Western hemisphere. He said the following about Fauci:
1. Overpaid. He makes 400K a year running a multibillion dollar institute. In academia he'd be paid 2x and in industry, about 10x...
2. Bureaucrat. He's a practicing physician scientist with administrative responsibilities.
3. He's living off the fame of old work. He edited the last 3 versions of Harrisons, the most recent in 2018 (it's 4048 pages just so you guys know the breadth of the work). He also published more than 20 manuscripts a year the past 20 years.. Including 2020 when I stopped counting after 32.
4. He lied about the masks. Now this is where I asked for references on the timeline because I didn't closely follow as to who said what. Never got a response.

Fauci isn't perfect and he said/did a few things I don't entirely agree with, but there's such a stark difference in quality of character and life-work between Trump (or Rand Paul) and Fauci that in my books being neutral about Trump but negative about Fauci is a huge indicator of a faulty value system.

Science isn't perfect (and it isn't supposed to be). One of the standards we have is based on probability estimation and setting the threshold of acceptable risk for error for false discovery to 5%. So with a lot of science you'll get plenty false discovery and the goal is not to be infallible, to goal is to be correct 19 out of 20 cases. If someone had doubts that that's a pretty damn good proportion just look at how life expectancy increased in the past century. Now when it comes to the Q-Cucks-Clan running from the opposite end of the spectrum. They fixate on that 5% where science was wrong and they treat this 5% as it was 95%. So they are wrong on 19 out of 20 issues, yet that 1 issue they'll get right will vindicate them (in their minds). This extreme confirmation bias is a way to define insanity.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> Republicans definitely got behind anti-intellectualism, which is ironic considering that the loudest people from there tend to have degrees from top 10 colleges/universities.
> 
> 
> My MR Frenemy used to bash me for criticizing Trumps piss poor leadership on COVID, but he mentioned Fauci about 10 times and told me I'm appealing to authority, when I told him how ridiculous Rand Paul looks when he's trying to lecture the most cited ID physician in the world who also happens to be the chief editor of Harrison's the #1 Internal Medicine textbook on the Western hemisphere. He said the following about Fauci:
> 1. Overpaid. He makes 400K a year running a multibillion dollar institute. In academia he'd be paid 2x and in industry, about 10x...
> 2. Bureaucrat. He's a practicing physician scientist with administrative responsibilities.
> 3. He's living off the fame of old work. He edited the last 3 versions of Harrisons, the most recent in 2018 (it's 4048 pages just so you guys know the breadth of the work). He also published more than 20 manuscripts a year the past 20 years.. Including 2020 when I stopped counting after 32.
> 4. He lied about the masks. Now this is where I asked for references on the timeline because I didn't closely follow as to who said what. Never got a response.
> 
> Fauci isn't perfect and he said/did a few things I don't entirely agree with, but there's such a stark difference in quality of character and life-work between Trump (or Rand Paul) and Fauci that in my books being neutral about Trump but negative about Fauci is a huge indicator of a faulty value system.
> 
> Science isn't perfect (and it isn't supposed to be). One of the standards we have is based on probability estimation and setting the threshold of acceptable risk for error for false discovery to 5%. So with a lot of science you'll get plenty false discovery and the goal is not to be infallible, to goal is to be correct 19 out of 20 cases. If someone had doubts that that's a pretty damn good proportion just look at how life expectancy increased in the past century. Now when it comes to the Q-Cucks-Clan running from the opposite end of the spectrum. They fixate on that 5% where science was wrong and they treat this 5% as it was 95%. So they are wrong on 19 out of 20 issues, yet that 1 issue they'll get right will vindicate them (in their minds). This extreme confirmation bias is a way to define insanity.



This extends to tech as well. People who know diddly-squat about it will ignore everything incredible about a 2021 cell phone, and when it doesn’t read their mind and properly auto-correct their crappy typing, they declare it to be .

Somebody who doesn’t understand a field, instead of listening to the experts, or trying to get some knowledge about it, just wait for the experts to make some minor mistake, which then justifies their own ignorance. “See he thinks he’s so smart; he said wear masks, then he said not to. What a moron. I take my medical advice from my 365 jokes-a-year calendar!”


----------



## Edd

Rand Paul: ‘I’m not getting vaccinated’
					

Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) said Sunday that he will not be getting vaccinated against COVID-19. During an interview with John Catsimatidis on his radio show on WABC 770 AM, Paul, an ophthalmologist, sa…




					thehill.com


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> This extends to tech as well. People who know diddly-squat about it will ignore everything incredible about a 2021 cell phone, and when it doesn’t read their mind and properly auto-correct their crappy typing, they declare it to be .
> 
> Somebody who doesn’t understand a field, instead of listening to the experts, or trying to get some knowledge about it, just wait for the experts to make some minor mistake, which then justifies their own ignorance. “See he thinks he’s so smart; he said wear masks, then he said not to. What a moron. I take my medical advice from my 365 jokes-a-year calendar!”



Yup the Dunning-Kruger phenomenon is definitely a strong force on this side of the globe. Fun fact is that it also makes you an expert to anticipate medical questions based of 1st page google searches




Edd said:


> Rand Paul: ‘I’m not getting vaccinated’
> 
> 
> Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) said Sunday that he will not be getting vaccinated against COVID-19. During an interview with John Catsimatidis on his radio show on WABC 770 AM, Paul, an ophthalmologist, sa…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com



What a turd (ran out of words to describe him). He's quite confident in his antibodies 1 year out. It would be so ironic if he got it again Too bad 75-80% of congress are vaccinated, so others made sure the heavy lifting is taken care of for him.


----------



## Eric

Edd said:


> Rand Paul: ‘I’m not getting vaccinated’
> 
> 
> Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) said Sunday that he will not be getting vaccinated against COVID-19. During an interview with John Catsimatidis on his radio show on WABC 770 AM, Paul, an ophthalmologist, sa…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com



I would argue that anyone getting their medical advice from Rand Paul was never getting the vaccine anyway.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Eric said:


> There really should be a nationalized system for verification but unfortunately it's become political which is ridiculous. There should be a simple and universal way to verify, if you don't want the vaccine then fine, you can't do certain things but don't penalize everyone else who has done the right thing.



You mean like?






You would figure the people who hate the concept most, are the biggest cheerleaders of this country.


----------



## User.45

> This study explored social factors that are associated with the US deaths caused by COVID-19 after the declaration of economic reopening on May 1, 2020 by President Donald Trump. We seek to understand how county-level support for Trump interacted with social distancing policies to impact COVID-19 death rates. Overall, controlling for several potential confounders, counties with higher levels of Trump support do not necessarily experience greater mortality rates due to COVID-19. The predicted weekly death counts per county tended to increase over time with the implementation of several key health policies. However, the difference in COVID-19 outcomes between counties with low and high levels of Trump support grew after several weeks of the policy implementation as counties with higher levels of Trump support suffered relatively higher death rates.






> *Counties with higher levels of Trump support exhibited lower percentages of mobile staying at home and higher percentages of people working part time or full time than otherwise comparable counties with lower levels of Trump support. The relative negative performance of Trump-supporting counties is robust after controlling for these measures of policy compliance.*






> Counties with high percentages of older (aged 65 and above) persons tended to have greater death rates, as did more populous counties in general. This study indicates that policymakers should consider the risks inherent in controlling public health crises due to divisions in political ideology and confirms that vulnerable communities are at particularly high risk in public health crises.




I'll translate this, because the connotations are made a little too subtle (appropriate for a science paper, but too mild for the cost in human life). This is kind of the closest we'll ever get to tell that Trump's leadership _behavior_ killed a lot of people in 2020. As I've been saying we could have had a decent summer just like in Europe if we opened up a little slower last summer. I.e. you'll be fucking shocked: Fauci was right. 


			https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/wmh3.435


----------



## JayMysteri0

Hey kids, guess what was supposed to happen a year ago?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1283518424774213632/

If he only added, "With another year & a different administration, by Memorial Day we will largely have this coronavirus pandemic behind us."

...and a "If followers of my boss don't storm the capital looking to hang me. Heh! Like that would happen."


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Hey kids, guess what was supposed to happen a year ago?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1283518424774213632/
> 
> If he only added, "With another year & a different administration, by Memorial Day we will largely have this coronavirus pandemic behind us."
> 
> ...and a "If followers of my boss don't storm the capital looking to hang me. Heh! Like that would happen."



It was really translucent bullshit. 

Regardless, Pence is quite reliable. He managed to achieve a similar clusterfuck with COVID that he did with the HIV epidemic in Indiana.


----------



## SuperMatt

Fox News had an article about Fauci’s emails that was the top hit when I searched for Fauci.









						Fauci emails spark flood of backlash: 'Needs to stop playing games'
					

A trove of recently released emails to and from top government epidemiologist Anthony Fauci is sparking fierce backlash against him from some Republicans.




					www.foxnews.com
				




The Fox article is very disappointing. It pulls a couple quotes out of context and then fills most of the article with the responses of Republicans in Congress, as if they have anything to do with the story…? It treats their off-the-cuff reactions as equal or more important than the facts in the article. Take out the overheated political comments, and look at just the information from the emails. It’s clear there were conflicting theories of where the virus came from, and they were trying to get answers. Mostly, however, they were trying to figure out how to contain the outbreak…you know, they were concerned about the health of Americans.

Here is the original reporting from Buzzfeed, who actually put in the FOIA request and did all the reporting. It shows all 3000+ pages of the emails they got.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nataliebettendorf/fauci-emails-covid-response

IMHO, the biggest misunderstanding from the right (not just of Fauci, but of everybody trying to handle the pandemic) is that the doctors knew everything from the beginning and were somehow hiding it from people. Of course, anybody using more of their brains knows this was a brand new virus, and it took some time before they figured out critical facts such as the spreading among people without visible symptoms. You can see that in the emails.

There are more emails obtained by the Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/interactive/2021/tony-fauci-emails/

Why didn’t Fox put forward a FOIA request? Are they happy to just snag a quote or two from other sources’ reporting, mixed in with tweets from GOP lawmakers? Apparently so. And still their *Reader’s Digest for Kids* version is the top hit.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Fox News had an article about Fauci’s emails that was the top hit when I searched for Fauci.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci emails spark flood of backlash: 'Needs to stop playing games'
> 
> 
> A trove of recently released emails to and from top government epidemiologist Anthony Fauci is sparking fierce backlash against him from some Republicans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Fox article is very disappointing. It pulls a couple quotes out of context and then fills most of the article with the responses of Republicans in Congress, as if they have anything to do with the story…? It treats their off-the-cuff reactions as equal or more important than the facts in the article. Take out the overheated political comments, and look at just the information from the emails. It’s clear there were conflicting theories of where the virus came from, and they were trying to get answers. Mostly, however, they were trying to figure out how to contain the outbreak…you know, they were concerned about the health of Americans.
> 
> Here is the original reporting from Buzzfeed, who actually put in the FOIA request and did all the reporting. It shows all 3000+ pages of the emails they got.
> 
> https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nataliebettendorf/fauci-emails-covid-response
> 
> IMHO, the biggest misunderstanding from the right (not just of Fauci, but of everybody trying to handle the pandemic) is that the doctors knew everything from the beginning and were somehow hiding it from people. Of course, anybody using more of their brains knows this was a brand new virus, and it took some time before they figured out critical facts such as the spreading among people without visible symptoms. You can see that in the emails.
> 
> There are more emails obtained by the Washington Post.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/interactive/2021/tony-fauci-emails/
> 
> Why didn’t Fox put forward a FOIA request? Are they happy to just snag a quote or two from other sources’ reporting, mixed in with tweets from GOP lawmakers? Apparently so. And still their *Reader’s Digest for Kids* version is the top hit.



Reddit only picked it up in r/Conservative and r/Conspiracy. At conspiracy they claim Fauci lied about masks, referring to a Feb email where nearly everything was factually correct except for the lack of knowledge about this pandemic being driven by the asymptomatic. One thing that came to my mind is that my MR Frenemy called him an overpaid bureaucrat...This is 10 pages of emails per day and probably not the full list. With this guy's hours, his hourly wage would be around $60. 

He's clearly held to a much much higher standard than politicians. Just imagine if we had this level of access to Rand Paul's emails... The thing about NIH employees is that everybody's paranoid as fuck and if you log into the computer system you get a reminder that don't expect any level of privacy. So you shall expect absolutely no smoking gun.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> Reddit only picked it up in r/Conservative and r/Conspiracy. At conspiracy they claim Fauci lied about masks, referring to a Feb email where nearly everything was factually correct except for the lack of knowledge about this pandemic being driven by the asymptomatic. One thing that came to my mind is that my MR Frenemy called him an overpaid bureaucrat...This is 10 pages of emails per day and probably not the full list. With this guy's hours, his hourly wage would be around $60.
> 
> He's clearly held to a much much higher standard than politicians. Just imagine if we had this level of access to Rand Paul's emails... The thing about NIH employees is that everybody's paranoid as fuck and if you log into the computer system you get a reminder that don't expect any level of privacy. So you shall expect absolutely no smoking gun.



One other interesting fact was that redactions were made by the Trump administration.



> Some of the emails were reviewed by the Trump White House before being turned over to BuzzFeed News. They represent just a portion of what was requested, and they are filled with redactions, making them an incomplete record of the time period and Fauci’s correspondence. Additional tranches are expected to be released in the coming months.



And there are more to come…


----------



## SuperMatt

Great news!









						COVID-19 cases hit their lowest point in the U.S. since the pandemic began — Axios
					

The U.S. has brought new coronavirus infections down to the lowest level since March 2020, when the pandemic began.




					apple.news
				




Selfish and stupid people were the number one vector. Only the vaccine was able to stop the spread because of that. I believe America is the dumbest country on the planet, and maybe in all of history?


----------



## JayMysteri0

April 1st past right?



> Anti-Maskers Ready to Start Masking—to Protect Themselves From the Vaccinated
> 
> 
> An anti-vaccine conspiracy about the vaccinated is leading some anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers to contemplate wearing a mask and social distance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com



_A conspiracy ripping through the anti-vax world may finally drive some anti-maskers to do the unthinkable: wear a mask and keep their distance.

The conspiracy—which comes in several shapes and sizes—more or less says the vaccinated will “shed” certain proteins onto the unvaccinated who will then suffer adverse effects. The main worry is the “shedding” will cause irregular menstruation, infertility, and miscarriages. The entirely baseless idea is a key cog in a larger conspiracy that COVID-19 was a ploy to depopulate the world, and the vaccine is what will cull the masses. 

Experts say the conspiracy is born from a fundamental misunderstanding of how vaccines work. It has been widely debunked and you can read about it here, here, and here, among other places.  

Anti-vax influencers are instructing their fellow anti-vaxxers as well as anti-maskers (at this point the two communities overlap to a huge degree) that one of the best ways to defend themselves from this blight is to co-opt…social distancing, the very strategy they have long decried. 

Sherri Tenpenny, an anti-vaxxer who was found to be key in spreading COVID-19 conspiracy theories, suggested on a recent anti-vax livestream that you may have to “stay away from somebody who's had these shots…forever.”_

-

_It’s not just social distancing that anti-maskers/anti-vaxxers are begrudgingly accepting. Some conspiracy theorists are wondering if perhaps their longtime bane, the mask, could become their salvation. One perplexed poster on the fringe site 4chan asked their fellow anons if they should “wear a mask around the vaccinated, because they shed the mRNA stuff?” 

“I am going to be watching these vaccine shedding stories like a hawk,” wrote another man on Twitter. “Is my family going to need to wear masks to protect ourselves from the vaccinated?”_


----------



## Runs For Fun

Get the vax, win a shotgun: US states get creative to encourage vaccination
					

Governors have tried lotteries, free beer, tickets to theme parks and gift cards, as Biden tries to reach 70% vaccination goal by Fourth of July




					www.theguardian.com
				




Whatever it takes I guess?


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> April 1st past right?
> 
> 
> _A conspiracy ripping through the anti-vax world may finally drive some anti-maskers to do the unthinkable: wear a mask and keep their distance.
> 
> The conspiracy—which comes in several shapes and sizes—more or less says the vaccinated will “shed” certain proteins onto the unvaccinated who will then suffer adverse effects. The main worry is the “shedding” will cause irregular menstruation, infertility, and miscarriages. The entirely baseless idea is a key cog in a larger conspiracy that COVID-19 was a ploy to depopulate the world, and the vaccine is what will cull the masses.
> 
> Experts say the conspiracy is born from a fundamental misunderstanding of how vaccines work. It has been widely debunked and you can read about it here, here, and here, among other places.
> 
> Anti-vax influencers are instructing their fellow anti-vaxxers as well as anti-maskers (at this point the two communities overlap to a huge degree) that one of the best ways to defend themselves from this blight is to co-opt…social distancing, the very strategy they have long decried.
> 
> Sherri Tenpenny, an anti-vaxxer who was found to be key in spreading COVID-19 conspiracy theories, suggested on a recent anti-vax livestream that you may have to “stay away from somebody who's had these shots…forever.”_
> 
> -
> 
> _It’s not just social distancing that anti-maskers/anti-vaxxers are begrudgingly accepting. Some conspiracy theorists are wondering if perhaps their longtime bane, the mask, could become their salvation. One perplexed poster on the fringe site 4chan asked their fellow anons if they should “wear a mask around the vaccinated, because they shed the mRNA stuff?”
> 
> “I am going to be watching these vaccine shedding stories like a hawk,” wrote another man on Twitter. “Is my family going to need to wear masks to protect ourselves from the vaccinated?”_



Love it Also, pstt. Don't tell them that mRNA has low stability and a short half life (hence the special storage requirements).


----------



## JayMysteri0

Where'd all that crazy go that I saw lying around?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1402461832032440320/


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Where'd all that crazy go that I saw lying around?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1402461832032440320/



The people in the background seem totally nonplussed about this. Either they aren’t listening or they know this lady and expected the insanity ahead of time…


----------



## tranceking26

So it has begun here in England. The first step towards passports being required to enter matches. Proof of vaccination needed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57404223


----------



## Runs For Fun

These keep getting dumber and dumber








						Apparently, Some Anti-Vaxxers Think The COVID Vaccine Makes You...Magnetic
					

"I'm sure you've seen the pictures all over the internet of people who have had these shots and now they're magnetized," Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, a physician licensed in Ohio and author of "Saying No to Vaccines," said to a panel.




					www.refinery29.com


----------



## User.45

Runs For Fun said:


> These keep getting dumber and dumber
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, Some Anti-Vaxxers Think The COVID Vaccine Makes You...Magnetic
> 
> 
> "I'm sure you've seen the pictures all over the internet of people who have had these shots and now they're magnetized," Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, a physician licensed in Ohio and author of "Saying No to Vaccines," said to a panel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.refinery29.com








						Google Scholar
					






					scholar.google.com
				




So many publications, zero citations (on available papers). That's impressive on its own.


----------



## Clix Pix

An Osteopathic "physician" -- not impressive to me......


----------



## User.45

Clix Pix said:


> An Osteopathic "physician" -- not impressive to me......



I've worked with fantastic physicians who went to D.O. schools. DOs who completed allopathic residency programs are just fine. I'd also add that these days the training of a DO is less different from a US trained MD than an IMG (international medical grad) vs. a US MD. That said she had not completed allopathic training. On Doximity she's listed as a family medicine physician, but her licensing info is like:




Looking into it on her website, she claims to have 3 board certifications, which all are through osteopathic institutes. 
A ginormous red flag is no graduate medical training listed. It was in the 80s so she might have gotten an osteopathic emergency medicine certificate without residency training?! Nevertheless, this lady's credentials smell like bull manure.


----------



## JayMysteri0

And here we goooooo...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1403093377990774786/

The fact that such a case would be happening at a hospital is a little concerning for me.


----------



## JayMysteri0

tranceking26 said:


> So it has begun here in England. The first step towards passports being required to enter matches. Proof of vaccination needed.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57404223



I still find it very interesting & telling for the reason why we can't have proof vaccination passports here.

That the very crowd that's for ever more strict & specific voter ID, are against vax cards for fear of them having too much information.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> And here we goooooo...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1403093377990774786/
> 
> The fact that such a case would be happening at a hospital is a little concerning for me.



Don't be concerned. THey have 35K employees, but saying that 99.5% of the employees are vaccinated wouldn't get the clicks. That 0.5% would not be missed by anybody.


----------



## JayMysteri0

P_X said:


> Don't be concerned. THey have 35K employees, but saying that 99.5% of the employees are vaccinated wouldn't get the clicks. That 0.5% would not be missed by anybody.



Oh, I wasn't paying attention to the employee numbers.

Just the fact that such a thing is happening at a hospital of all places.

I would have hoped that was the last place to see that happening.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> I still find it very interesting & telling for the reason why we can't have proof vaccination passports here.
> 
> That the very crowd that's ever more strict & specific voter ID, are against vax cards for fear of them having too much information.



Because they are malignant idiots. But vaccine passports are stupid. We should have immunity passports. Show antibody titers from the past 6 months. Low/no titers? Show proof of vaccination and enroll in booster program. 



JayMysteri0 said:


> Oh, I wasn't paying attention to the employee numbers.
> 
> Just the fact that such a thing is happening at a hospital of all places.
> 
> I would have hoped that was the last place to see that happening.



99.5% sanity is a pretty good ratio even from a hospital. You can bet that the vast majority of these people aren't healthcare professionals.


----------



## Clix Pix

P_X said:


> I've worked with fantastic physicians who went to D.O. schools. DOs who completed allopathic residency programs are just fine. I'd also add that these days the training of a DO is less different from a US trained MD than an IMG (international medical grad) vs. a US MD. That said she had not completed allopathic training. On Doximity she's listed as a family medicine physician, but her licensing info is like:
> View attachment 5978
> 
> Looking into it on her website, she claims to have 3 board certifications, which all are through osteopathic institutes.
> A ginormous red flag is no graduate medical training listed. It was in the 80s so she might have gotten an osteopathic emergency medicine certificate without residency training?! Nevertheless, this lady's credentials smell like bull manure.




"Currently board certified in Osteopathic Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine" simply sounds like a glorified chiropractor to me. 
I wholeheartedly gree -- this woman's so-called "credentials" are pretty questionable!


----------



## Clix Pix

P_X said:


> Don't be concerned. THey have 35K employees, but saying that 99.5% of the employees are vaccinated wouldn't get the clicks. That 0.5% would not be missed by anybody.



In my area, all or most of the hospitals are requiring their employees to be fully vaccinated.....  I didn't read the entire article so don't know if there is a deadline set by which someone must have been vaccinated or they lose their job, but presumably so.


----------



## User.45

Clix Pix said:


> In my area, all or most of the hospitals are requiring their employees to be fully vaccinated.....  I didn't read the entire article so don't know if there is a deadline set by which someone must have been vaccinated or they lose their job, but presumably so.



The process was:
1) Lawyers sit down to discuss whether the hospital can apply the same rules for a vaccine with emergency authorization as they have for influenza vaccinations
2) They reach a consensus that we'll use influenza protocols
3) You have a deadline to get your shot
4) You get daily emails in a 2 week window at the end of which they suspend your clinical/work privileges 
5) You hit t in a whe deadline, so you get one more week to actually get your privileges suspended;
6) You're not fired but don't get paid
-----
This is probably where these 177 employees are. Of these, there's gonna be a few RNs who have 2 other jobs and give no damn about the threats. Some foodcourt people, janitors, security and some admins with funky beliefs... and that one respiratory therapist who spent treating COVID patients but also a fucking moron.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Here’s a video of the stupid









						SEE IT: Ohio nurse hilariously fails to prove COVID vaccine makes people magnetic, key falls from her neck
					

Perhaps she’s just attracted to conspiracies.




					www.nydailynews.com


----------



## lizkat

P_X said:


> Because they are malignant idiots. But vaccine passports are stupid. We should have immunity passports. Show antibody titers from the past 6 months. Low/no titers? Show proof of vaccination and enroll in booster program.




Yeah, this.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Since I mentioned being magnetic & the covid vaccine in another thread, which is what got the Marvel comic book villain Magneto trending on Twitter yesterday, here's another bit of unintentional _comedy_ fail ...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1403089454030598145/

Why?



> The Pandemic’s Wrongest Man
> 
> 
> In a crowded field of wrongness, one person stands out: Alex Berenson.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com





> The pandemic has made fools of many forecasters. Just about all of the predictions whiffed. Anthony Fauci was wrong about masks. California was wrong about the outdoors. New York was wrong about the subways. I was wrong about the necessary cost of pandemic relief. And the Trump White House was wrong about almost everything else.
> 
> In this crowded field of wrongness, one voice stands out. The voice of Alex Berenson: the former _New York Times_ reporter, Yale-educated novelist, avid tweeter, online essayist, and all-around pandemic gadfly. Berenson has been serving up COVID-19 hot takes for the past year, blithely predicting that the United States would not reach 500,000 deaths (we’ve surpassed 550,000) and arguing that cloth and surgical masks can’t protect against the coronavirus (yes, they can).
> 
> Berenson has a big megaphone. He has more than 200,000 followers on Twitter and millions of viewers for his frequent appearances on Fox News’ most-watched shows. On Laura Ingraham’s show, he downplayed the vaccines, suggesting that Israel’s experience proved they were considerably less effective than initially claimed. On _Tucker Carlson Tonight_, he predicted that the vaccines would cause an uptick in cases of COVID-related illness and death in the U.S.





> The vaccines have inspired his most troubling comments. For the past few weeks on Twitter, Berenson has mischaracterized just about every detail regarding the vaccines to make the dubious case that most people would be better off avoiding them. As his conspiratorial nonsense accelerates toward the pandemic’s finish line, he has proved himself the Secretariat of being wrong:
> 
> He has blamed the vaccines for causing spikes in severe illness, by pointing to data that actually demonstrate their safety and effectiveness.
> He has blamed the vaccines for suppressing our immune systems, by misrepresenting normal immune-system behavior.
> He has suggested that countries such as Israel have suffered from their early vaccine rollout, even though deaths and hospitalizations among vaccinated groups in Israel have plummeted.
> He has implied that for most non-seniors, the side effects of the vaccines are worse than having COVID-19 itself—even though, according to the CDC, the pandemic has killed tens of thousands of people under 50 and the vaccines have not conclusively killed anybody.
> Usually, I would refrain from lavishing attention on someone so blatantly incorrect. But with vaccine resistance hovering around 30 percent of the general population, and with 40 percent of Republicans saying they won’t get a shot, debunking vaccine skepticism, particularly in right-wing circles, is a matter of life and death.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Since I mentioned being magnetic & the covid vaccine in another thread, which is what got the Marvel comic book villain Magneto trending on Twitter yesterday, here's another bit of unintentional _comedy_ fail ...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1403089454030598145/
> 
> Why?



What I don't understand is why do people pay any attention to somebody who doesn't have any education in biology, medicine or healthcare. If an ivy league college degree could replace graduate education, how come we don't allow people with ivy league college degrees to practice medicine/be nurse practitioners without an advanced degree? Because it can't. 

But I don't blame guys like Berenson, he isn't bound by the same ethics standards a physician is. He's also probably totally aware he's wrong, but he can drum it up, cash it in, make an "easy" living from playing into the confirmation biases of dumb people. It's a political version of being an influencer without the looks. The key really is to live somewhere where your neighbors are unaware of, or cool with your malevolent shit.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> The process was:
> 1) Lawyers sit down to discuss whether the hospital can apply the same rules for a vaccine with emergency authorization as they have for influenza vaccinations
> 2) They reach a consensus that we'll use influenza protocols
> 3) You have a deadline to get your shot
> 4) You get daily emails in a 2 week window at the end of which they suspend your clinical/work privileges
> 5) You hit t in a whe deadline, so you get one more week to actually get your privileges suspended;
> 6) You're not fired but don't get paid
> -----
> This is probably where these 177 employees are. Of these, there's gonna be a few RNs who have 2 other jobs and give no damn about the threats. Some foodcourt people, janitors, security and some admins with funky beliefs... and that one respiratory therapist who spent treating COVID patients but also a fucking moron.



Wow. Nobody can say they weren't warned that's for sure. The employer has a right to require it just as the employee has a right to refuse it and lose their job. It's a choice, nobody is forcing anything on anyone. If they don't like it maybe they need to seek work outside of an institution that was designed to treat and prevent diseases.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> Wow. Nobody can say they weren't warned that's for sure. The employer has a right to require it just as the employee has a right to refuse it and lose their job. It's a choice, nobody is forcing anything on anyone. If they don't like it maybe they need to seek work outside of an institution that was designed to treat and prevent diseases.



Agree. Houston Methodist is a _very_ highly regarded hospital system. They'll rein it in. Hospitals have an army of lawyers, so I can assure you they thought it out. I don't even think they'll have to fire these people, just restrict them from activities that generates their pay. 

I'll have to say, I've always been behind with my discharge summaries as a resident and after 2 weeks they suspend you. Once my clinical privileges were "suspended" for 2 hours. It feels more like euthanasia rather than punishment if you've been pulling the 6th 90+ hour work week.


----------



## SuperMatt

So, Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, reamed out anybody on the Linux kernel email list that was making anti-vax statements:









						A Linus Torvalds Rant We Can All Get Behind
					

Link to: https://lore.kernel.org/ksummit/CAHk-=wiB6FJknDC5PMfpkg4gZrbSuC3d391VyReM4Wb0+JYXXA@mail.gmail.com/




					daringfireball.net
				






> Please keep your insane and technically incorrect anti-vax comments to yourself.
> 
> You don't know what you are talking about, you don't know what mRNA
> is, and you're spreading idiotic lies. Maybe you do so unwittingly,
> because of bad education. Maybe you do so because you've talked to
> "experts" or watched youtube videos by charlatans that don't know what
> they are talking about.
> 
> But dammit, regardless of where you have gotten your mis-information
> from, any Linux kernel discussion list isn't going to have your
> idiotic drivel pass uncontested from me.
> 
> Vaccines have saved the lives of literally tens of millions of people.




So, why does a (former) doctor running a Mac website let such misinformation spread on his website? I believe there is no conscience left there; only greed at this point. Can’t lose the ad revenue from right-wing nuts, so let them spread dangerous misinformation.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> So, Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, reamed out anybody on the Linux kernel email list that was making anti-vax statements:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Linus Torvalds Rant We Can All Get Behind
> 
> 
> Link to: https://lore.kernel.org/ksummit/CAHk-=wiB6FJknDC5PMfpkg4gZrbSuC3d391VyReM4Wb0+JYXXA@mail.gmail.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daringfireball.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, why does a (former) doctor running a Mac website let such misinformation spread on his website? I believe there is no conscience left there; only greed at this point. Can’t lose the ad revenue from right-wing nuts, so let them spread dangerous misinformation.



I'm with you on this 100%.


----------



## JayMysteri0

> Masks Made From Melon Bread Released In Japan
> 
> 
> One study claims they're as effective as commonly sold urethane masks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kotaku.com





> Melon pan is not only delicious, but one Japanese company also thinks it can make a good mask.
> 
> Osaka-based experimental think tank Goku no Kimochi The Labo has created “Mask Pan” or “Mask Bread” after college students from Fukuoka and Okinawa decided they want to sniff the smell of bread all the time. What better way to do that than wearing melon pan on your face?
> 
> _FNN_ reports that Goku no Kimochi The Labo roped in famed melon pan specialty shop Melon de Melon to bake the bread. For each Mask Pan, the middle is carved out, making space for the wearer’s mouth and nose. As silly as this might seem (and goodness does it ever), the melon pan’s signature crunchy outside supposedly has a degree of effectiveness.


----------



## Runs For Fun

SuperMatt said:


> So, Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, reamed out anybody on the Linux kernel email list that was making anti-vax statements:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Linus Torvalds Rant We Can All Get Behind
> 
> 
> Link to: https://lore.kernel.org/ksummit/CAHk-=wiB6FJknDC5PMfpkg4gZrbSuC3d391VyReM4Wb0+JYXXA@mail.gmail.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daringfireball.net



I meant to post this. Epic response. I love when Linus goes off on someone’s stupidity.

Edit: that guy is a real nutter


> On 09.06.21 12:37, David Hildenbrand wrote:
> > On 28.05.21 16:58, James Bottomley wrote:
> >> On Thu, 2021-05-27 at 15:29 +0200, Greg KH wrote:
> >>> On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 03:23:03PM +0200, Christoph Lameter wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 30 Apr 2021, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I know we're all really hungry for some in-person meetups and
> >>>>> discussions, but at least for LPC, Kernel Summit, and
> >>>>> Maintainer's Summit, we're going to have to wait for another
> >>>>> year,
> >>>>
> >>>> Well now that we are vaccinated: Can we still change it?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Speak for yourself, remember that Europe and other parts of the world
> >>> are not as "flush" with vaccines as the US currently is
> >>
> >> The rollout is accelerating in Europe.  At least in Germany, I know
> >> people younger than me are already vaccinated.
> >
> > And I know people younger than you in Germany personally (  ) that are
> > not vaccinated yet and might not even get the first shot before
> > September, not even dreaming about a second one + waiting until the
> > vaccine is fully in effect.
> And I know *a lot* of people who will never take part in this generic
> human experiment that basically creates a new humanoid race (people
> who generate and exhaust the toxic spike proteine, whose gene sequence
> doesn't look quote natural). I'm one of them, as my whole family.
> 
> > So yes, sure, nobody can stop people that think the pandemic is over
> > ("we are vaccinated") from meeting in person.
> *Pandemic ? Did anybody look at the actual scientific data instead of
> just watching corporate tv ? #faucigate*



WTF?


----------



## JayMysteri0

The one thing I'd like to share with the new crop of anti vaxxers

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1404151397529145344/

Why is the "stickiness" stronger in the evening?  Possibly because you've been sweating during the day if NOT all day, as opposed to early in the morning when you get up.

I think the new marketing try for the vaccine should be, "well, it can't make you anymore stupid".


----------



## Runs For Fun

Debunking magnetic conspiracy theory.


----------



## fooferdoggie

the stupidest though about thie magnetic crap is they are using objects like keys and spoons that are nto magnetic they dont stick to a magnet. So truly dumb is it?


----------



## Pumbaa

fooferdoggie said:


> the stupidest though about thie magnetic crap is they are using objects like keys and spoons that are nto magnetic they dont stick to a magnet. So truly dumb is it?



Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards. If you’re gonna be dumb, why not be exceptionally dumb?


----------



## Runs For Fun

Oh. My. God. This person is fucking moron. I can’t even….




__





						LKML: :
					





					lkml.org


----------



## fooferdoggie

Runs For Fun said:


> Oh. My. God. This person is fucking moron. I can’t even….
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LKML: :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lkml.org



all the crazy in one letter


----------



## User.45

Runs For Fun said:


> Oh. My. God. This person is fucking moron. I can’t even….
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LKML: :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lkml.org



Just check out his blog He managed to post about Obama's birth certificate too


----------



## Runs For Fun

P_X said:


> Just check out his blog He managed to post about Obamaás birth certificate too



Ugh I took a look and it hurt.


----------



## Pumbaa

P_X said:


> Just check out his blog He managed to post about Obama's birth certificate too



Would you believe me if I said I was truly shocked?


----------



## SuperMatt

Linux users aren’t ALL smart.


----------



## Pumbaa

SuperMatt said:


> Linux users aren’t ALL smart.



Neither are MacRumors users.

My brain hurts from all the stupid regarding covid-19, masks, and vaccination. I should just log out…


----------



## User.45

Pumbaa said:


> Neither are MacRumors users.
> 
> My brain hurts from all the stupid regarding covid-19, masks, and vaccination. I should just log out…



Like this?  (from last year)



> Sedulous said:
> I wish/hope you were right. Unfortunately a vaccine cannot give more immunity than an actual infection. If the post-recovery immunity window is limited to two weeks (as latest studies claim), then a vaccine will only give the same or less.



I found this impressive as everything is wrong in this statement.
-IgG (mature) antibodies tend to have a 23 day half-life so obviously this is wrong theoretically
-A vaccine can easily give more immunity than the actual infection, 
(and just to prove it, here, orange are the ones who were exposed to COVID in the past. Blue are those who had no prior exposure. Antibody levels after one dose are higher than the highest levels in previously infected.)




When I pointed this out to him, he advised me to read an immunology textbook, and claimed he's now not only teaching "medicine" at Oxford and Harvard, but PRSI too.

Crazy, but hilarious too.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I know some people who are still vaccine-hesitant who aren’t part of the Trump brigade or righteous ignorants. I try to sympathize but at some point they need to realize they are ruining it for everybody else. They say they are waiting for more information but that is extremely disingenuous at this point. What they are actually doing is latching onto any alarmist news or disinformation campaign that says the vaccines aren’t 100% effective with zero side effects. Meanwhile we’re probably exposed to a thousand different things and scenarios daily that some people are going to die from at a much higher rate than covid or the vaccine.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I know some people who are still vaccine-hesitant who aren’t part of the Trump brigade or righteous ignorants. I try to sympathize but at some point they need to realize they are ruining it for everybody else. They say they are waiting for more information but that is extremely disingenuous at this point. What they are actually doing is latching onto any alarmist news or disinformation campaign that says the vaccines aren’t 100% effective with zero side effects. Meanwhile we’re probably exposed to a thousand different things and scenarios daily that some people are going to die from at a much higher rate than covid or the vaccine.



But you'll never convince these people. People who are risk averse, but understand probabilities already get that just driving to work for a week is many times more likely to kill you than getting the vaccine. Even for people younger than 40, the risk of dying from COVID is about the risk of dying from a car crash over 1.5 years. It's just funny that one of these risks is totally OK but the other one is not


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> But you'll never convince these people. People who are risk averse, but understand probabilities already get that just driving to work for a week is many times more likely to kill you than getting the vaccine. Even for people younger than 40, the risk of dying from COVID is about the risk of dying from a car crash over 1.5 years. It's just funny that one of these risks is totally OK but the other one is not




These people will never be done waiting for more information. They’ll forever be gathering anecdotal stories with minuscule probabilities of it happening to them or based on complete horse shit. They probably even read or hear clickbait like “Vaccine is ineffective for people with this condition”, not even bother to find out what that condition is or if it applies to them, but still add that little nugget of vague information to their mental filing cabinet of excuses to not get vaccinated.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> These people will never be done waiting for more information. They’ll forever be gathering anecdotal stories with minuscule probabilities of it happening to them or based on complete horse shit. They probably even read or hear clickbait like “Vaccine is ineffective for people with this condition”, not even bother to find out what that condition is or if it applies to them, but still add that little nugget of vague information to their mental filing cabinet of excuses to not get vaccinated.



And this is why these people tend to be total losers. On the scale of thousands of decisions you need to understand risks/benefits to keep things net positive for yourself.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> These people will never be done waiting for more information. They’ll forever be gathering anecdotal stories with minuscule probabilities of it happening to them or based on complete horse shit. They probably even read or hear clickbait like “Vaccine is ineffective for people with this condition”, not even bother to find out what that condition is or if it applies to them, but still add that little nugget of vague information to their mental filing cabinet of excuses to not get vaccinated.



"I'll wait for full FDA approval!"
"FDA approval was rushed! Still waiting!"


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> And this is why these people tend to be total losers. On the scale of thousands of decisions you need to understand risks/benefits to keep things net positive for yourself.




Most of these people are nothing more than contrarians who treat facts and science like their favorite underground band. The more popular the band becomes the less they like them. So they have to run out and find another little-known underground band/opinion so they can feel special.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> . So they have to run out and find another little-known underground band/opinion so they can feel special.



Great analogy...and sadly legitimate.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> Great analogy...and sadly legitimate.




It’s the opposite of educating yourself. It’s pulling contrary opinions out of your ass, sharing them on the internet and finding enough like-minded gullible rubes to make it a known group think.

We also live in a time when notorious bullshit spreader is actually a compliment and something to strive for, for some people. There’s no better example of this than Marjorie Taylor Green. She really couldn’t give less of a shit about the validity of what she says, only that it will hit well for a certain group of people and she’ll get national recognition for saying it.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> It’s the opposite of educating yourself. It’s pulling contrary opinions out of your ass, sharing them on the internet and finding enough like-minded gullible rubes to make it a known group think.
> 
> We also live in a time when notorious bullshit spreader is actually a compliment and something to strive for, for some people. There’s no better example of this than Marjorie Taylor Green. She really couldn’t give less of a shit about the validity of what she says, only that it will hit well for a certain group of people and she’ll get national recognition for saying it.



2020 really changed my view on fake news. Before that year, my basic philosophy was that people sharing misinformation may be misguided but not malevolent, so if you put in time and effort to highlight falsities and factual errors could correct these issues. Last year what I've seen is that people spreading verifiably false information do it with an agenda now, and since it takes 100x more effort to debunk stupid shit appropriately, part of that agenda is to ensure I expend more effort than they do. Like it was really eye opening seeing Sedulous dropping clear lies over and over and over, about vaccines, about shootings, about influenza. He never backed up his statements just went somewhere else dropping more lies. This takes us to an era which I really dislike, but the only viable way to fight disinformation is to identify and discredit disinformers themselves.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> 2020 really changed my view on fake news. Before that year, my basic philosophy was that people sharing misinformation may be misguided but not malevolent, so if you put in time and effort to highlight falsities and factual errors could correct these issues. Last year what I've seen is that people spreading verifiably false information do it with an agenda now, and since it takes 100x more effort to debunk stupid shit appropriately, part of that agenda is to ensure I expend more effort than they do. Like it was really eye opening seeing Sedulous dropping clear lies over and over and over, about vaccines, about shootings, about influenza. He never backed up his statements just went somewhere else dropping more lies. This takes us to an era which I really dislike, but the only viable way to fight disinformation is to identify and discredit disinformers themselves.



I was talking to somebody on another forum and they insisted that Snopes was just liberal nonsense; I countered that Snopes was never considered “liberal” by anybody until Trump showed up. They insisted that Trump was so (awesome?) that it caused the closet liberals at Snopes to lose their minds and attack him… and when I asked for any evidence, they pointed to a short, poorly written opinion piece in the Washington Times. Just utter nonsense coming from the right these days.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I was talking to somebody on another forum and they insisted that Snopes was just liberal nonsense; I countered that Snopes was never considered “liberal” by anybody until Trump showed up. They insisted that Trump was so (awesome?) that it caused the closet liberals at Snopes to lose their minds and attack him… and when I asked for any evidence, they pointed to a short, poorly written opinion piece in the Washington Times. Just utter nonsense coming from the right these days.



My MR frenemy also considered Snopes biased/propaganda. The guy eventually ran out of legit references, but he kindly used "liberal media" like the Hill to prove points.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I was talking to somebody on another forum and they insisted that Snopes was just liberal nonsense; I countered that Snopes was never considered “liberal” by anybody until Trump showed up. They insisted that Trump was so (awesome?) that it caused the closet liberals at Snopes to lose their minds and attack him… and when I asked for any evidence, they pointed to a short, poorly written opinion piece in the Washington Times. Just utter nonsense coming from the right these days.



I'll expand on my previous thought, because it is a long chess game and it kinda goes like this:

1. Disinformer makes up new shit (the more novelty the better as long as it blends a little with the current news)
2. Spreads it
3. Gets away with it a few times, until somebody fact checks them
4. They retreat and either spread the same disinfo elsewhere, or make up new stuff.
- A few people eat the disinfo up. 
- A few people start focusing on the disinformer themself after debunking them the nth time
5. The critics amass and unite in calling out the disinformer
6. Disinformer pulls cancel culture card
7. This feeds into the confirmation bias of gullible/malevolent people who interpret this as not only the disinfo being true, but also important enough to spark a backlash. 

Cycle restarts with a positive feedback loop.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Eric

And here we go again...









						WHO urges fully vaccinated people to continue to wear masks as delta Covid variant spreads
					

"People cannot feel safe just because they had the two doses. They still need to protect themselves," WHO official Dr. Mariangela Simao told reporters.




					www.cnbc.com
				




I still have friends who refuse to get the vaccine and I'm just going to have to keep away from them socially I'm afraid.


----------



## SuperMatt

Republican governors are now imploring their residents to get vaccinated. After you spend months claiming the virus isn’t dangerous, or doesn’t exist, you have a hard time convincing those same people to follow you when you make a 180-degree turn?



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/04/republicans-vaccines/


----------



## User.45

SuperBillionaire said:


> Republican governors are now imploring their residents to get vaccinated. After you spend months claiming the virus isn’t dangerous, or doesn’t exist, you have a hard time convincing those same people to follow you when you make a 180-degree turn?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/04/republicans-vaccines/



Sadly no surprises. Ironically these people not getting vaccinated are the "welfare queens/kings" of the situation, reaping the benefits from others being vaccinated.


----------



## Eric

Potatoes FTW


----------



## Runs For Fun

Eric said:


> Potatoes FTW
> 
> View attachment 6680



Sadly, jaclyn is right. These anti-vaxxer idiots would actually believe this.


----------



## User.45

Runs For Fun said:


> Sadly, jaclyn is right. These anti-vaxxer idiots would actually believe this.



psssst! let 'em!


----------



## Runs For Fun

P_X said:


> psssst! let 'em!



Oh I totally agree. It just boggles my mind how stupid these people are.


----------



## Runs For Fun




----------



## User.168

.


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## User.168

.


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## User.45

theSeb said:


> It seems that the UK government is going to simply scrap all restrictions in two weeks time and see what happens, whilst reminding the public about their personal responsibility.
> 
> An interesting take on this that I just read:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There could be 15,000 unnecessary Covid deaths by January – and Boris Johnson will blame you — The Independent
> 
> 
> Whenever we’ve relaxed restrictions prematurely it’s been said that the public didn’t obey the guidance – so it’s your own fault
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



It's gonna be a clusterfuck by September. This issue is, Israel is facing an uptick in cases because they vaccinated a great deal of people 6+ mo ago, and well, the Phase 3 efficacy number was based on data captured in a ~4mo period. So we are heading into an uncharted territory. Expect lower number of deaths, milder disease etc, but if the virus can spread it can mutate further and can be pushed to evolve to be more resistant to immunity induced by the current vaccines. 

It is what it is, we'll need a booster at one point and probably before COVID season returns in the fall.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.45

theSeb said:


> I think it's going to become something that we have to live, to paraphrase Boris. I am expecting a large clusterfuck now that clubs, concert halls, sports venues and everything else can fully reopen and people can start to hug and lick each other as much as they want. It will be interesting to see how many people continue to use masks after the 19th of July.



In my state they lifter indoor mask requirements (AFAIK) but the majority of people still wear it in the grocery store. It's ironic that I don't know about the updates anymore. I'll just keep on wearing a mask to indoor spaces where I go without the intent to socialize.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.45

theSeb said:


> Yeah, I intend to continue wearing my assortment of awesome masks in shops. I dig it. It makes me feel like a ninja. You mentioned booster in the previous shot. Did you see the headlines about Pfizer wanting approval to administer a third jab? I assume this is because the vaccines run out of battery power, or the magnetic effect wanes with time. Perhaps it's a firmware upgrade?
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer wants approval for 3rd Covid shot to boost immunity against Delta variant
> 
> 
> A third dose of the vaccine could help boost antibodies and ward off new coronavirus variants
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



I didn't see the headlines but it's been obvious from the get go. Antibody titers drop after 2 months of natural infection. Titers get higher for those who got 2 shots than those who had the natural infection, meaning the effect will last longer. The low number of reinfections until now were due to the effective preventative measures, less symptomatic/severe second infections and a level of durable immunity, but coronaviruses are 1) heavily seasonal (COVID is an exceptionally virulent one in between seasons) and 2) people can get reinfected every 6 months if unlucky (based on a 40-year long coronavirus/cold study). So we knew this. 

The thing is, getting the unvaccinated vaccinated would still be more desirable for a first run. We need the evidence on the booster so let 'em finish the trials for that. I also want to see what role antibody titers play in assessing immunity. If it's like >80% predictive (arbitrary number), we can test and jab and time the booster appropriately, etc. IMHO we have until September to make decisions on this.


----------



## SuperMatt

The news on the radio this morning had a story about the resurgence of the virus, and that most cases are now of the Delta variety. Unsurprisingly, rural areas in the south and midwest are hardest hit due to low vaccination rates. The correlation is direct and obvious.









						Where Are The Newest COVID Hot Spots? Mostly Places With Low Vaccination Rates
					

As the delta variant takes over in the U.S., new, localized outbreaks are emerging. Those surges are likely driven by pockets of dangerously low vaccination rates.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Hrafn

SuperBillionaire said:


> The correlation is direct and obvious.



That's a weird way to spell "it's a hoax" and "fake news."  

It would be funny if it weren't tragic and typical.  "OMG, if you don't get vaccinated, and don't social distance, and you are around someone who is infected, you can get infected, too!  Who could have guessed?  Someone should have said something..."


----------



## lizkat

LA Times has interesting piece up today about ongoing efforts to develop treatment for effects of covid-19 infection,  as well as advancing research in messing with the virus' ability to clone itself and also in preventing overreaction of the immune system to infection.









						Vaccines are terrific, but where are the COVID-19 treatments?
					

It may seem like biotech companies are focused solely on developing vaccines for COVID-19, but some are hard at work on drugs that could treat those who become sick.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Hrafn said:


> That's a weird way to spell "it's a hoax" and "fake news."
> 
> It would be funny if it weren't tragic and typical.  "OMG, if you don't get vaccinated, and don't social distance, and you are around someone who is infected, you can get infected, too!  Who could have guessed?  Someone should have said something..."



Oh there are still people that think Trump was “on to something” with his “shine a light in your ear” strategy. A company (that previously got in trouble for selling unapproved Chinese COVID tests in April 2020) tried to sell investors on the “Healight” - yes, a light you stick down your throat to kill COVID. They got a bunch of investment money for it. I’ll post a couple articles about it here so you can make up your own mind... a real cure? Or somebody trying to cash in on Trump’s ignorant ramblings? They tested their technology on 5 (yes FIVE!) people. I guess that counts as a trial? Only one of them died, so not bad right?









						Aytu BioScience (AYTU): The Moonshot Continues To Orbit Awaiting The Next Giant Steps
					

Solid progress advancing Healight technology and the merger confirmation with Neos Therapeutics should help propel Aytu BioScience's share price to a more rational valuation.




					seekingalpha.com
				












						Healight: A highly implausible treatment for COVID-19
					

Last week, President Trump proposed using internal light to treat COVID-19. The existence of Healight, a device to do that, doesn't help him.




					respectfulinsolence.com
				












						Column: How Cedars-Sinai got sucked into the battle over Trump's claim of a COVID-19 treatment
					

Cedars-Sinai is embroiled in a political battle over Trump's remarks on a potential virus treatment.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## User.45

SuperBillionaire said:


> Oh there are still people that think Trump was “on to something” with his “shine a light in your ear” strategy. A company (that previously got in trouble for selling unapproved Chinese COVID tests in April 2020) tried to sell investors on the “Healight” - yes, a light you stick down your throat to kill COVID. They got a bunch of investment money for it. I’ll post a couple articles about it here so you can make up your own mind... a real cure? Or somebody trying to cash in on Trump’s ignorant ramblings? They tested their technology on 5 (yes FIVE!) people. I guess that counts as a trial? Only one of them died, so not bad right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aytu BioScience (AYTU): The Moonshot Continues To Orbit Awaiting The Next Giant Steps
> 
> 
> Solid progress advancing Healight technology and the merger confirmation with Neos Therapeutics should help propel Aytu BioScience's share price to a more rational valuation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seekingalpha.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Healight: A highly implausible treatment for COVID-19
> 
> 
> Last week, President Trump proposed using internal light to treat COVID-19. The existence of Healight, a device to do that, doesn't help him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> respectfulinsolence.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Column: How Cedars-Sinai got sucked into the battle over Trump's claim of a COVID-19 treatment
> 
> 
> Cedars-Sinai is embroiled in a political battle over Trump's remarks on a potential virus treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com



It's an interesting case study. When the first HCQ study came out suggesting the efficacy (where they used a virologic and not clinical endpoint and removed all patients transferred to the ICU [meaning it was a meaningless study]) you could see the major problems with HCQ but what Trump was regurgitating was based on inadequate data interpreted inappropriately. When I pointed this shit out on reddit at r/TheDonald they started trying to interpret UV therapy and posted PubMed articles to me even. If Trump came up with (or read on the internet) something he would just blurt it out w/o filter. UV is used on non-cellular blood products to kill pathogens as UV has a frequency that disrupts DNA/RNA so as long as it's like packed blood you can disinfect it without spoiling it (mature red blood cells don't have nuclei anymore, etc). Shining UV in organs with living cells could cause an internal sunburn and where there's about a single cell layer covering things like a lung it could lead to ARDS (adult/acute respiratory stress syndrome) which COVID causes on it's own too... A bad one at it. Additionally, it would still be just superficial treatment. So no, overall it was a really dumb idea, Trump is just an epitome of the Dunning-Kruger phenomenon.


----------



## thekev

Eric said:


> Potatoes FTW
> 
> View attachment 6680




The word "toxin" is grossly misused by a large number of people.


----------



## lizkat

thekev said:


> The word "toxin" is grossly misused by a large number of people.




Exceeded only but surely by the number of people misusing Twitter.


----------



## thekev

lizkat said:


> Exceeded only but surely by the number of people misusing Twitter.




Believe me, I'm with you. People come up with some truly silly notions though. The additives in typical vaccines (not sure about mRNA types) are typically regarded as toxic. I hesitate to use the word, because a lot of seemingly innocuous stuff could be toxic if injected in large amounts. To the best of my knowledge, they're added to incite an immune system response.

Also, potential side effects do sometimes surface from various vaccines. There's a recent one reported for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. They probably don't know enough yet.  Personally, it wouldn't dissuade me. I got it, realizing side effects might surface later. I did not want to test how long I could evade covid, particularly because I figured that most social restrictions would start to be relaxed.









						EU finds potential link between heart inflammation and mRNA COVID shots
					

Europe's drug regulator has found a possible link between very rare heart inflammation and COVID-19 vaccines from Pfizer-BioNTech (PFE.N), (22UAy.DE) and Moderna (MRNA.O), it said on Friday, stressing that the benefits of the shots outweighed any risks.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## User.45

thekev said:


> Believe me, I'm with you. People come up with some truly silly notions though. The additives in typical vaccines (not sure about mRNA types) are typically regarded as toxic. I hesitate to use the word, because a lot of seemingly innocuous stuff could be toxic if injected in large amounts. To the best of my knowledge, they're added to incite an immune system response.
> 
> Also, potential side effects do sometimes surface from various vaccines. There's a recent one reported for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. They probably don't know enough yet.  Personally, it wouldn't dissuade me. I got it, realizing side effects might surface later. I did not want to test how long I could evade covid, particularly because I figured that most social restrictions would start to be relaxed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EU finds potential link between heart inflammation and mRNA COVID shots
> 
> 
> Europe's drug regulator has found a possible link between very rare heart inflammation and COVID-19 vaccines from Pfizer-BioNTech (PFE.N), (22UAy.DE) and Moderna (MRNA.O), it said on Friday, stressing that the benefits of the shots outweighed any risks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com



US military tracked their cases. 23 cases of myocarditis (heart muscle inflammation), for 2.8M doses (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2781601). ~1 in 100K. To give a very rough idea about all of this, a phase 1 will give you risk profile to the 1% range, a phase 2 to a 0.1% range a phase 3 to a 0.01% scale. So now that we are getting phase 4 data we uncover the 0.001% risk level data. The media isn't doing a great job at placing this in context. These complications were not captured because of they were below the the sensitivity level of a phase 3 trial. 

So in contrast, 0.1% of Americans DIED of COVID last year. Early reports suggested signs of myocarditis in >50% of COVID cases regardless of severity. Even if I adjust for age dependent risks as long as you have a legit personal risk to contract COVID, even as a healthy young person the benefit of the shot will overweigh the risk by orders of magnitude.


----------



## hulugu

P_X said:


> US military tracked their cases. 23 cases of myocarditis (heart muscle inflammation), for 2.8M doses (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2781601). ~1 in 100K. To give a very rough idea about all of this, a phase 1 will give you risk profile to the 1% range, a phase 2 to a 0.1% range a phase 3 to a 0.01% scale. So now that we are getting phase 4 data we uncover the 0.001% risk level data. The media isn't doing a great job at placing this in context. These complications were not captured because of they were below the the sensitivity level of a phase 3 trial.
> 
> So in contrast, 0.1% of Americans DIED of COVID last year. Early reports suggested signs of myocarditis in >50% of COVID cases regardless of severity. Even if I adjust for age dependent risks as long as you have a legit personal risk to contract COVID, even as a healthy young person the benefit of the shot will overweigh the risk by orders of magnitude.




Right. Our county had COVID-19 deaths approaching 1 out of every 450 people, which is rather low overall. Still, the death rate of COVID-19, despite all the precautions, is significantly below the potential cases of myocarditis. And, that's before we get into the cases of people who contracted COVID-19 and remain "long-haulers" with severe, long-lasting symptoms. There are also good questions about how COVID-19 affects young athletes. 

All told, the vaccine has been incredibly safe.


----------



## User.45

hulugu said:


> Right. Our county had COVID-19 deaths approaching 1 out of every 450 people, which is rather low overall. Still, the death rate of COVID-19, despite all the precautions, is significantly below the potential cases of myocarditis. And, that's before we get into the cases of people who contracted COVID-19 and remain "long-haulers" with severe, long-lasting symptoms. There are also good questions about how COVID-19 affects young athletes.
> 
> All told, the vaccine has been incredibly safe.



You're right, I wanted to write ≥0.1% mortality. Same thing applies to hypercoagulability with AZ vaccine. Of the many hundreds of stroke cases I've treated maybe 5 cases involved sagittal sinus thrombosis. It's super rare and usually happens in hypercoagulable females (autoimmune etiology mostly). Again COVID comes with a hypercoagulable state so again getting the infection generates the same state just many many many times worse.


----------



## thekev

P_X said:


> US military tracked their cases. 23 cases of myocarditis (heart muscle inflammation), for 2.8M doses (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2781601). ~1 in 100K. To give a very rough idea about all of this, a phase 1 will give you risk profile to the 1% range, a phase 2 to a 0.1% range a phase 3 to a 0.01% scale. So now that we are getting phase 4 data we uncover the 0.001% risk level data. The media isn't doing a great job at placing this in context. These complications were not captured because of they were below the the sensitivity level of a phase 3 trial.
> 
> So in contrast, 0.1% of Americans DIED of COVID last year. Early reports suggested signs of myocarditis in >50% of COVID cases regardless of severity. Even if I adjust for age dependent risks as long as you have a legit personal risk to contract COVID, even as a healthy young person the benefit of the shot will overweigh the risk by orders of magnitude.




I don't disagree with you at all. Covid is just far too high of a risk by orders of magnitude for me to wait for long term studies to surface. If it was a common strain of rhinovirus, I might think differently (not sure that will ever happen, given their diversity).

Note, I got mine shortly after they became available to people in my age group.


----------



## User.45

thekev said:


> I don't disagree with you at all. Covid is just far too high of a risk by orders of magnitude for me to wait for long term studies to surface. If it was a common strain of rhinovirus, I might think differently (not sure that will ever happen, given their diversity).
> 
> Note, I got mine shortly after they became available to people in my age group.



I didn't say it explicitly, but with COVID, the "no-brainer" risk-benefit ratio for the vaccine was established on a phase 2 level. I.e. a year ago. 

Less cute but more accurate for rhinoviruses:


----------



## SuperMatt

Less accurate description of a RINO-virus:


----------



## thekev

P_X said:


> I didn't say it explicitly, but with COVID, the "no-brainer" risk-benefit ratio for the vaccine was established on a phase 2 level. I.e. a year ago.
> 
> Less cute but more accurate for rhinoviruses:
> View attachment 6886




Oh I get that, although I prefer my rhinovirus visual**. To be clear, I wasn't even remotely considering foregoing vaccination. Even after vaccination, I continue to avoid crowded areas, buy groceries at off peak hours, and wear a mask indoors in case I ever unknowingly contract it.

**I drive by and make jokes. This is what I do.


----------



## User.45

thekev said:


> Oh I get that, although I prefer my rhinovirus visual**. To be clear, I wasn't even remotely considering foregoing vaccination. Even after vaccination, I continue to avoid crowded areas, buy groceries at off peak hours, and wear a mask indoors in case I ever unknowingly contract it.
> 
> **I drive by and make jokes. This is what I do.



I know and Rhinoceroses are cute too It's just one thing with which my stuck up upbringing gets the best of me: the inaccuracy of unjustified abbreviations


----------



## hulugu

P_X said:


> You're right, I wanted to write ≥0.1% mortality. Same thing applies to hypercoagulability with AZ vaccine. Of the many hundreds of stroke cases I've treated maybe 5 cases involved sagittal sinus thrombosis. It's super rare and usually happens in hypercoagulable females (autoimmune etiology mostly). Again COVID comes with a hypercoagulable state so again getting the infection generates the same state just many many many times worse.




My sense has been that anyone who suffered from complications because of the vaccine were probably fated for real trouble if they caught the actual virus. 

Talked to a hospital doc and nurse this week, they're still seeing patients in the ICU and most of those cases are hitting people in their 30s. 

I'm nervous about school starting, because kids 5-11 are not vaccinated.


----------



## User.45

hulugu said:


> My sense has been that anyone who suffered from complications because of the vaccine were probably fated for real trouble if they caught the actual virus.
> 
> Talked to a hospital doc and nurse this week, they're still seeing patients in the ICU and most of those cases are hitting people in their 30s.
> 
> I'm nervous about school starting, because kids 5-11 are not vaccinated.



It makes sense because people in their 30s are less vaccinated than those 40+ but higher risk than <30. 

Once the pediatric studies finish, 2+ will be eligible by Sept. It's just for them the risk-benefit ratio is different (pediatric mortality of COVID is insanely low, so the vaccines have to be insanely safe).


----------



## lizkat

Truly surly antimaskers are still out and about, apparently.   Could mind their own business.  But since they don't, some will doubtless encounter equally surly ripostes...   this one from a researcher in the field.  

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1413281243731398657/


----------



## JayMysteri0

This is a glaringly bizarre stat if true

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1414191707126648835/

Which in it's own amateurish stupid way fuels various conspiracy theories that if the virus strikes them, it was some kind of weapon out to get them.


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> This is a glaringly bizarre stat if true
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1414191707126648835/
> 
> Which in it's own amateurish stupid way fuels various conspiracy theories that if the virus strikes them, it was some kind of weapon out to get them.



Also, Trump was very positive about the vaccine until he lost the election. Then he changed his tune. His followers really buy into his insanity: hook, line, and sinker.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Also, Trump was very positive about the vaccine until he lost the election. Then he changed his tune. His followers really buy into his insanity: hook, line, and sinker.





JayMysteri0 said:


> This is a glaringly bizarre stat if true
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1414191707126648835/
> 
> Which in it's own amateurish stupid way fuels various conspiracy theories that if the virus strikes them, it was some kind of weapon out to get them.



Give 'em credit where credit is due. It's an impressive achievement to collect such a unique set of sell outs, like the anti-vaxx physician, the unconstitutionalist lawyers, or the climate change denying engineer*.

People like Rand Paul impress as such weaklings, he is "100% pro-life" when it comes to others' decisions, but finds his decisions about not getting vaccinated "deeply personal". (To add to it, the vaccination provides extra protection indicated by higher antibody titers even those exposed to SARS-CoV-2 before, so he's factually wrong too...)








						Rand Paul says he won't get a Covid vaccination
					

The CDC recommends that those who have been infected still get vaccinated because experts aren't certain how long natural immunity lasts.




					www.nbcnews.com
				




*TBF the engineer believes in climate change, just not in the role of human activity in it...Incidentally he is paid by major polluters.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Fauci fires back at Republicans to ‘get over it’ and get vaccinated
					

Chief medical adviser to the president implores those still hesitant to get inoculated: ‘Try and save your life, and that of your family, and that of the community’




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Daaaamn!


----------



## Thomas Veil

This weekend I was with family out of state, and two guys there whom I see a fair amount of were being jerks about Covid. One is a definite Trumper who has said he’s not getting vaccinated. The other is a naive, easily misled guy who spent all this year waffling about how he’ll “probably” get it at some point but wasn’t ready yet, how he just wasn’t comfortable with it, etc.

This weekend when I asked again he gave me some BS excuse about how his type O blood made him less vulnerable to the virus, so he didn’t really need the vaccine and wouldn’t be getting it at all.

Keep in mind this guy’s had a vasectomy. So getting his junk cut into is okay, but a little needle shot is a bridge too far.

It’s not the first time he’s sheepishly repeated right wing baloney, so I’m sure he’s just doing whatever Uncle Tucker on TV tells him to do.

In point of fact, type O _is_ the least susceptible, but he was sitting across me, a type A, the _most_ susceptible, for hours, and it never occurred to his simple brain that he might be infecting me or somebody else.

I wish I’d learned that earlier in the evening, because I might’ve gotten up and moved somewhere else. Despite my being vaccinated, these two guys’ flippant attitude made me feel more vulnerable. Besides being type A, I also have a lung condition, which obviously makes me someone who can’t take this lightly.

So today I am (1) kicking myself for being polite and not saying anything back; (2) kicking myself for staying there all evening; and (3) promising myself to avoid those guys where possible and wear a mask around them when it’s not.

And the _real_ kicker? I just found out that a relative on my wife’s side who is fully vaccinated got the disease anyway and is fairly sick right now. So yeah I’m feeling vulnerable.

When I next see these guys they’ll probably figure out why I’m suddenly masked again, and they may roll their eyes or even be offended, but you know what? Fuck them.


----------



## Runs For Fun

There’s a few people in my family that are refusing to get vaccinated. One is older and therefore falls into the vulnerable category. The others have young kids (too young for the vaccine and even if they were old enough I feel like they wouldn’t let them get the vaccine). So they’re putting their whole family at risk. The one thing they all have in common? They’re huge Trumpers. It’s so dumb and infuriating. How the fuck did we get to this point?


----------



## Deleted member 199

I just saw a bit of Seth Meyers show that focussed on the CPAC thing (hint: if your political fundraising activities make the news ~8 months just _after_ an election, your political climate might be as fucked as the earth's climate).. anyway. I couldn't actually watch it past the idiot attempting to be funny and just flailing around like a half cooked goose (Don Jr, that is) so I'm just going by Meyer's summary at the top of the segment - he said the crowd, who are presumably republican big-wigs and donors etc... *applauded* the low vaccination rates....

I'm not going to be surprised in 2024 when the number of republican voters is even lower because of COVID-induced attrition. What a way to 'own the libs'.


----------



## Deleted member 199

Runs For Fun said:


> There’s a few people in my family that are refusing to get vaccinated. One is older and therefore falls into the vulnerable category. The others have young kids (too young for the vaccine and even if they were old enough I feel like they wouldn’t let them get the vaccine). So they’re putting their whole family at risk. The one thing they all have in common? They’re huge Trumpers. It’s so dumb and infuriating. How the fuck did we get to this point?




It's unfair on the children but part of me thinks this is modern day natural selection at work.


----------



## fooferdoggie

where have we seen this before? 
Tennessee fires top vaccine official as COVID-19 shows signs of new spread​








						Tennessee fires top vaccine official as COVID-19 shows signs of new spread
					

Tennessee fired Dr. Michelle Fiscus, its top vaccine official. as the COVID-19 delta variant spreads and the state dials back teen vaccination efforts




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## Deleted member 199

fooferdoggie said:


> where have we seen this before?
> Tennessee fires top vaccine official as COVID-19 shows signs of new spread​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tennessee fires top vaccine official as COVID-19 shows signs of new spread
> 
> 
> Tennessee fired Dr. Michelle Fiscus, its top vaccine official. as the COVID-19 delta variant spreads and the state dials back teen vaccination efforts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com



... so they're gonna.... treat it like teen pregnancy, and just preach abstinence?


----------



## SuperMatt

Stephen.R said:


> ... so they're gonna.... treat it like teen pregnancy, and just preach abstinence?



If states like Tennessee keep forcing out anybody with an education, are we going to have half the U.S. living like cavemen? A curiosity for the “liberal elites” to visit on safaris through the Midwest?


----------



## Deleted member 199

SuperMatt said:


> If states like Tennessee keep forcing out anybody with an education, are we going to have half the U.S. living like cavemen? A curiosity for the “liberal elites” to visit on safaris through the Midwest?



A safari where the subjects are the ones with all the guns.


----------



## SuperMatt

Stephen.R said:


> A safari where the subjects are the ones with all the guns.



Give it time. At some point they will revert to being unable to even figure out how to use their “boomsticks”.


----------



## Herdfan

This certainly won't help:









						FDA adds warning about rare reaction to J&J COVID-19 vaccine
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — U.S. regulators on Monday added a new warning to Johnson & Johnson’s COVID-19 vaccine about links to a rare and potentially dangerous neurological reaction, but said it’s not entirely clear the shot caused the problem.




					apnews.com
				




I can't say I am surprised, and I suspect it will be blown up into a bigger issue than it really is.


----------



## Deleted member 199

Herdfan said:


> This certainly won't help:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FDA adds warning about rare reaction to J&J COVID-19 vaccine
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — U.S. regulators on Monday added a new warning to Johnson & Johnson’s COVID-19 vaccine about links to a rare and potentially dangerous neurological reaction, but said it’s not entirely clear the shot caused the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say I am surprised, and I suspect it will be blown up into a bigger issue than it really is.



So in a country with... a *choice* of what, four vaccines, some people have an adverse reaction to *one* of them... and conservatives idiots are going to use this as an argument to *not get vaccinated*? Yeah ok, that's about as logical as I can really expect from people who also claim a mask prevents them from breathing.


Get back to me when your government is rolling out a vaccine with at-best 50% efficacy and zero knowledge of fucks given about side effects, and we'll talk about the reasons for vaccine hesitancy.


I don't like to generalise, but fuck me do Americans have a knack for being whiny entitled little shits.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Stephen.R said:


> So in a country with... a *choice* of what, four vaccines, some people have an adverse reaction to *one* of them... and conservatives idiots are going to use this as an argument to *not get vaccinated*? Yeah ok, that's about as logical as I can really expect from people who also claim a mask prevents them from breathing.
> 
> 
> Get back to me when your government is rolling out a vaccine with at-best 50% efficacy and zero knowledge of fucks given about side effects, and we'll talk about the reasons for vaccine hesitancy.
> 
> 
> I don't like to generalise, but fuck me do Americans have a knack for being whiny entitled little shits.



There's also the statistics involved.

Meaning the number of people who got THAT vaccine, being in the specific group of male over 50, and IF you've already had the vaccine over 2 weeks you aren't in danger.

It's a common ploy that for some anything that they are resistant to, has to be ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.  If it's something they advocate, it becomes "is anything really absolutely perfect?"

Like I've said before, some won't be satisfied until God forbid the virus effects that group more heavily because of their obstinance.  So they can ultimately play the victim for something of their own doing.  Then it will be the fault of everyone else but them, to do something about what is happening to them.  If something isn't done fast enough, it will prove all of their original conspiracies, bringing things full circle.


----------



## Herdfan

Stephen.R said:


> I don't like to generalise, but fuck me do Americans have a knack for being whiny entitled little shits.




Well, yeah.


----------



## JayMysteri0

This is where the F we are going with some

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1415317663555874820/

The Ozarks are being overrun by the Delta variant, but some are more worried about being seen getting the vaccine, as opposed to getting Covid.


----------



## Runs For Fun

WRT my previous post here, it is interesting that this just popped up








						Young children will pay the price if enough US adults don't get vaccinated against Covid-19, expert says | CNN
					

Children will likely pay the price for adults in the US not getting vaccinated at high enough rates to slow or stop the spread of Covid-19, which has been surging in most states, a vaccine expert said.




					www.cnn.com
				




Some other stupidity








						DOJ: Naturopathic physician sold fake COVID-19 vaccine cards
					

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — A naturopathic physician in Northern California has been arrested and charged after federal prosecutors said she sold fake COVID-19 immunization treatments and fraudulent vaccination cards that made it seem like customers received Moderna vaccines.




					apnews.com
				




I am disappointed DeWine








						Gov. Mike DeWine signs bill banning colleges, schools from requiring coronavirus vaccines
					

House Bill 244 started as a bill to assist children whose parents are members of the military. Then the legislature amended it.




					www.cleveland.com


----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1415822159545397248/


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1415822159545397248/



Because of these idiots we're all going to have to go back to wearing masks indoors again.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Eric said:


> Because of these idiots we're all going to have to go back to wearing masks indoors again.



Well, yeah...

Because then THAT becomes something new for them to complain about.

It's a cycle that their own viewers feed & perpetuate all by design.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Stephen.R said:


> It's unfair on the children but part of me thinks this is modern day natural selection at work.



You know that billboard that keeps a running track of the national debt?

There needs to be one that estimates the number of Covid deaths caused by disinformation from the Republican Party, right wing news and Trump.


----------



## User.45

Runs For Fun said:


> WRT my previous post here, it is interesting that this just popped up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Young children will pay the price if enough US adults don't get vaccinated against Covid-19, expert says | CNN
> 
> 
> Children will likely pay the price for adults in the US not getting vaccinated at high enough rates to slow or stop the spread of Covid-19, which has been surging in most states, a vaccine expert said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some other stupidity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DOJ: Naturopathic physician sold fake COVID-19 vaccine cards
> 
> 
> SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — A naturopathic physician in Northern California has been arrested and charged after federal prosecutors said she sold fake COVID-19 immunization treatments and fraudulent vaccination cards that made it seem like customers received Moderna vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am disappointed DeWine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gov. Mike DeWine signs bill banning colleges, schools from requiring coronavirus vaccines
> 
> 
> House Bill 244 started as a bill to assist children whose parents are members of the military. Then the legislature amended it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cleveland.com



A naturopathic is *NOT* a physician.


----------



## Deleted member 199

Thomas Veil said:


> You know that billboard that keeps a running track of the national debt?
> 
> There needs to be one that estimates the number of Covid deaths caused by disinformation from the Republican Party, right wing news and Trump.



I don’t actually but I understand the concept.


----------



## Deleted member 199

So this keeps getting better:









						Moderna shots to be allotted
					

Not all people who have booked, and paid for, the Moderna Covid-19 vaccine from private hospitals will get all their shots since an allotment system will apply, according to the chairman of the Private Hospitals Association.




					www.bangkokpost.com
				




Collectively 277 private hospitals in Thailand have *accepted pre-payments* for 9.2M doses of Moderna, at about US$50 / dose....

So of course, based on that figure, the Private Hospitals Association which they're all members of, has organised for an order through the government (because they have to apparently)... of 5M doses... except 1.1M of those 5M are going to the Thai Red Cross to give away for free... So, 3.9M doses... after accepting payment for 9.2M doses. Each hospital gets 10K doses base, and then those that requested more than that many, will get a share of what's left based on demand.

Based on where we are, and how quickly we responded to the announcement from our hospital about it being available to pre-pay, I'm _somewhat_ confident that we'll get ours, but its just another example of how fucking ridiculous shit is here.

I'm not saying they're all a bunch of incompetent money grubbing assholes and that I cannot wait to leave this fucking place...... but I'm certainly *thinking* it very loudly.


----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1416383046366945281/


----------



## Herdfan

Anyone want to discuss the 3 TX House members who tested positive after flying maskless in a plane?


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> Anyone want to discuss the 3 TX House members who tested positive after flying maskless in a plane?



What do you want to discuss? That masks don‘t work? That vaccines don’t work? That Texas House Democrats don’t work?


----------



## Deleted member 199

Pumbaa said:


> What do you want to discuss? That masks don‘t work? That vaccines don’t work? That Texas House Democrats don’t work?



Obviously planes are illegally spreading the virus and should be deported. Or something?


----------



## Herdfan

Pumbaa said:


> What do you want to discuss? That masks don‘t work? That vaccines don’t work? That Texas House Democrats don’t work?




Well, masks don't work if you don't wear them.  

All I know is I declined to go out west to a conference because I wasn't willing to wear a mask for 6 hours (airport time plus flight), but these legislators all got on a plane together and even took a maskless "selfie" and posted it online.  And now 3 have tested positive.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Anyone want to discuss the 3 TX House members who tested positive after flying maskless in a plane?



No.

I’m concerned about this:




People need to get vaccinated. The Delta variant is more contagious and more dangerous to one’s health. For people refusing the vaccine, they need to wake up to reality - a concerted push by conservative media to encourage vaccination and stop lying about it could make a huge difference.

For people who are in a community where it just isn’t available or they cannot take a day off work to get it, or something like that - the government needs to reach out to those communities and make sure that nobody is getting left behind.

The sooner we get this done, the less likely it is that an Epsilon variant will emerge.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Well, masks don't work if you don't wear them.
> 
> All I know is I declined to go out west to a conference because I wasn't willing to wear a mask for 6 hours (airport time plus flight), but these legislators all got on a plane together and even took a maskless "selfie" and posted it online.  And now 3 have tested positive.
> 
> Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.



Aren't you bored about your own whining about your having to wear a mask? So just you know how sympathetic I am about your not wanting to wear a mask for 6 houts, my wife pulls 12 hour shifts in an N95 (the one with resistance) and my 3-year-old managed to finish a 12-hour plane trip without a single word of complaint.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> No.




Why not?  Because Dems looked as dumb as they possibly could?  Had that been a plane full of Republicans this place would be full of posts condemning them.

My concern about the DV is that I have the Pfizer jabs and it doesn't seem to be as effective against it.


----------



## Herdfan

P_X said:


> Aren't you bored about your own whining about your having to wear a mask? So just you know how sympathetic I am about your not wanting to wear a mask for 6 houts, my wife pulls 12 hour shifts in an N95 (the one with resistance) and my 3-year-old managed to finish a 12-hour plane trip without a single word of complaint.




Not whining.  I simply made a decision not to go.  And I'm Ok with it.  

As for your wife, if she is in HC, then bless her for her sacrifice, but it also was a career choice.  She should have known what she was getting into.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Anyone want to discuss the 3 TX House members who tested positive after flying maskless in a plane?



Stupid argument. The virus couldn't give a rats ass about what party you are in. And do you really want to litigate which party is the most irresponsible for the spread here? Get real.


----------



## Herdfan




----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Not whining.  I simply made a decision not to go.  And I'm Ok with it.



Just saying that if a 3-year-old can roll with this without issue, then it might be an issue with your hardware software.



Herdfan said:


> As for your wife, if she is in HC, then bless her for her sacrifice, but it also was a career choice.  She should have known what she was getting into.



You still assume it's hard for her. No it's not very hard for her, LOL.



Herdfan said:


> Why not?  Because Dems looked as dumb as they possibly could?  Had that been a plane full of Republicans this place would be full of posts condemning them.
> 
> My concern about the DV is that I have the Pfizer jabs and it doesn't seem to be as effective against it.



I couldn't find the maskless claims but I did find claims that they were vaccinated. That said, I'd rather double mask around strangers than get COVID for stupid shit.

As for the efficacy, the phase 3 trials eval'd efficacy until the 4 month mark, "essential" workers like politicians and me got vaccinated in January. You can do the math...


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> View attachment 7225



LOL... from your crazy rightwing Facebook group? Nice, grandpa.

It's one thing if you want to talk about the politics of it here but be careful about spreading misinformation. We put up with a lot here but have zero tolerance for that.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Why not?



Did you read the rest of my post? I believe I explained why not.  

Maybe you should take a moment to put things in perspective. 30,000 people a day are catching this, over 200 a day are dying of it. But you are worried about these 3 people? That makes absolutely no sense.


----------



## Eric

Shame


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/omagt7


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> LOL... from your crazy rightwing Facebook group? Nice, grandpa.
> 
> It's one thing if you want to talk about the politics of it here but be careful about spreading misinformation. We put up with a lot here but have zero tolerance for that.




Please clarify what misinformation I am spreading?

Are you actually disputing the authenticity of that photo?  Not the meme, but the photo on the left.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Please clarify what misinformation I am spreading?
> 
> Are you actually disputing the authenticity of that photo?  Not the meme, but the photo on the left.



I could just as easily post a store full of people wearing masks while socially distancing and an indoor Trump rally full of people screaming to the top of their lungs within inches of each other. The point is your meme is partisan to make a partisan point.

Posting this crap is on the edge, just watch that here. Anything doing with anti-masking or anti-vaxxing will not be tolerated, consider this fair warning on this topic.


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> Please clarify what misinformation I am spreading?
> 
> Are you actually disputing the authenticity of that photo?  Not the meme, but the photo on the left.



The people on the photo to the right should’ve gone by private plane too!


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Please clarify what misinformation I am spreading?
> 
> Are you actually disputing the authenticity of that photo?  Not the meme, but the photo on the left.



I verified that photo and it seems legit. It's nicer when these are posted with sources and not as memes...

I hate nothing more than having to invest more energy verifying your claim than you posting it.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> I could just as easily post a store full of people wearing masks while socially distancing and an indoor Trump rally full of people screaming to the top of their lungs within inches of each other. The point is your meme is partisan to make a partisan point.
> 
> Posting this crap is on the edge, just watch that here. Anything doing with anti-masking or anti-vaxxing will not be tolerated, consider this fair warning on this topic.



I posted the meme because no one else seemed to want to discuss the actual topic which is a bunch of Dems flew on a plane maskless and 3 of them tested positive.




P_X said:


> I verified that photo and it seems legit. It's nicer when these are posted with sources and not as memes...
> I hate nothing more than having to invest more energy verifying your claim than you posting it.




Damn right its legit.  It has been all over the news I just wrongly assumed everyone had seen it.  My bad.

From the DFW NBC Affiliate:


----------



## Hrafn

Lets do discuss.  My state is heavily anti-vax, anti-mask.  We've gone back to the office and now have a confirmed case, so contact tracing is having a bunch stay home for the next two weeks.

I went to Costco and Michaels today, and although my wife and I wore our masks, I'd say we were in the far less than 1/4 minority, due to overwhelming _Patriots_ in this state.  

So, yes, no mask = stupid.  Guess where no mask is coming from?


----------



## Herdfan

Hrafn said:


> Lets do discuss.
> 
> So, yes, no mask = stupid.  Guess where no mask is coming from?




Sure.  You hammer them for being from TX and I will hammer them for being Democrat hypocrites.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> *I posted the meme because no one else seemed to want to discuss the actual topic which is a bunch of Dems flew on a plane maskless and 3 of them tested positive.*



_Your_ political topic, nobody else really cares here.

Ignoring the droves of Trump supporting anti-vaxxers to make a point about three dems is ignorant right wing propaganda. Maybe you'll find more sympathy posting this turd over at Parler.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> _Your_ political topic, nobody else really cares here.
> 
> Ignoring the droves of Trump supporting anti-vaxxers to make a point about three dems is ignorant right wing propaganda.




Ok, yes my political topic.  But it is less about the masks and more about "Rules for thee, but not for me".   But would you agree if that plane were full of Republicans it would have been on every news channel ad nauseum?  

And hey, I am more than willing to discuss Republicans being vaccine hesitant.  I really do not understand why either.  Unlike masks, there is not a "freedom" issue they can use.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> I posted the meme because no one else seemed to want to discuss the actual topic which is a bunch of Dems flew on a plane maskless and 3 of them tested positive.



Oh, is that the actual topic? Shall I change the title of the thread for you then? What would you like me to change it to?


----------



## B S Magnet

Herdfan said:


> All I know is I declined to go out west to a conference because I wasn't willing to wear a mask for 6 hours (airport time plus flight), but these legislators all got on a plane together and even took a maskless "selfie" and posted it online.  And now 3 have tested positive.




A bubble of co-workers certified with dual vaccinations, sharing a chartered jet in a closed cabin with flight attendants and pilots (who weren’t part of that bubble), and who have since been in the company of people who weren’t part of that vaccination bubble,

versus,

People from all walks and communities, sharing a commercial jet in a closed cabin with flight attendants and pilots (who weren’t part of that bubble), and who are wearing masks to limit their own indeterminate ability to carry and pass along their potential to infect others as a function of prior exposure from the communities they originated.



Herdfan said:


> Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.




Make bacon to oranges comparisons, get dismissed as a meme crank.


----------



## Thomas Veil

I point of fact I _did_ see the story. I just didn't draw the same conclusions Herdfan did.



Herdfan said:


> Well, masks don't work if you don't wear them.
> 
> All I know is I declined to go out west to a conference because I wasn't willing to wear a mask for 6 hours (airport time plus flight), but these legislators all got on a plane together and even took a maskless "selfie" and posted it online.  And now 3 have tested positive.



And this was the first different conclusion I came to.

The fact that they were maskless didn't scream "hypocrites" to me, it screamed, "We came from a state where the disease is rampant because _nobody else_ wants to wear a mask." They probably assumed the risk was minimal because immunized people are not being asked to mask up around other immunized people. That was their mistake. They forgot what state they were coming from.



Herdfan said:


> Why not?  Because Dems looked as dumb as they possibly could?  Had that been a plane full of Republicans this place would be full of posts condemning them.



The Dems _would_ have looked dumb if they were unmasked on a commercial flight. But again...private plane, immunized.

And frankly the comparison doesn't stand up. If the private plane had been full of Republicans, most of them would likely not be immunized _or_ masked. That's a much higher risk situation.



Herdfan said:


> As for your wife, if she is in HC, then bless her for her sacrifice, but it also was a career choice.  She should have known what she was getting into.



Uh-uh. Don't go there. Medical professionals are frustrated and beyond dog-tired. They did not sign up for taking care of a bunch of whining, irresponsible grown up children who act like they're suicidal. I'd wager you that most medical professionals who have to take care of these dumb anti-vax people have thought to themselves on multiple occasions, _Why are we trying to save people who won't help themselves? We should just let them die_.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Oh, is that the actual topic? Shall I change the title of the thread for you then? What would you like me to change it to?



Topic is COVID.  Three of them tested positive after being in an enclosed aluminum tube for several hours and then going about meeting with multiple people in DC.  

No, I think your topic title is just fine.


----------



## B S Magnet

Herdfan said:


> Topic is COVID.  Three of them tested positive after being in an enclosed aluminum tube for several hours and then going about meeting with multiple people in DC.



Topic is health and well-being: SARS CoV-2.

Your posts are: the game of politics.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Herdfan said:


> I posted the meme because no one else seemed to want to discuss the actual topic which is a bunch of Dems flew on a plane maskless and 3 of them tested positive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn right its legit.  It has been all over the news I just wrongly assumed everyone had seen it.  My bad.
> 
> From the DFW NBC Affiliate:
> 
> View attachment 7229



Isn't that ignoring the obvious?

The photo is Texas democrats on a PRIVATE CHARTED plane.  Mask are NOT required according to federal pandemic guidelines, and they are vaccinated.

What exactly is the hypocrisy or issue you're reaching for?


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1416225030950866944/


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Isn't that ignoring the obvious issue?
> 
> The photo is Texas democrats on a PRIVATE CHARTED plane.  Mask are NOT required according to federal pandemic guidelines, and they are vaccinated.
> 
> What exactly is the hypocrisy or issue you're reaching for?



The sad thing is, instead of ”neener neener Democrats caught COVID” we could discuss the fact that the vaccine is the best protection we have, but nothing is 100%









						8 fully vaccinated healthcare workers who went to a Vegas pool party got COVID-19 with mild symptoms — and at least 7 caught the Delta variant, a report said
					

The healthcare workers had symptoms similar to allergies or a cold and chose to get tested, a hospital CEO told the Las Vegas Review-Journal.




					www.businessinsider.com
				




From another article:



> Public health officials have said breakthrough infections were expected, since manufacturers have warned loudly and often that the vaccines are not 100% protective. The Pfizer and Moderna versions have consistently been shown to be above 90% effective, most recently for at least six months. Studies have also shown they are nearly 100% effective at ensuring that the small fraction of vaccinated patients who do contract the virus will not get severe cases or require hospitalization.




So it sounds like the people who tested positive despite getting the vaccine have a pretty good chance of avoiding serious symptoms.


----------



## Runs For Fun

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1416383046366945281/



This is brilliant. I love it!


----------



## Thomas Veil

Fauci says polio would still exist in the US if the 'false information' currently being spread existed decades ago | CNN
					

If the health misinformation currently spreading regarding coronavirus vaccines existed during the days of polio, it would have never been eradicated, Dr. Anthony Fauci, President Joe Biden's chief medical adviser, said Saturday.




					www.cnn.com
				




I think he’s absolutely right. 

We’ve gotten so much more stupid as a country.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Three of them tested positive after being in an enclosed aluminum tube for several hours and then going about meeting with multiple people in DC.



So the contagious/incubation period is now only several hours? If they caught Covid from that flight, they would not test positive for a week. Maybe more. Sounds like their exposure came well before their flight to DC.


----------



## SuperMatt

Alli said:


> So the contagious/incubation period is now only several hours? If they caught Covid from that flight, they would not test positive for a week. Maybe more. Sounds like their exposure came well before their flight to DC.



Now why do you have to go and bring *science* into this discussion?


----------



## Herdfan

Pumbaa said:


> The people on the photo to the right should’ve gone by private plane too!




Doesn't matter.  Charter flights are covered under the CDC rule.  



			https://magellanjets.com/private-aviation/masks-aboard-private-jet-flights/
		










						Biden mask mandate extends to private jet charters and terminals
					

Private jet terminals and Part 135 charter flights are included in the CDC rules mandating masks be worn to prevent COVID-19 spread




					privatejetcardcomparisons.com
				












						U.S. travel update - ELEVATE Innovation
					

To enter the United States all approved foreign air travelers require proof that they are fully vaccinated against COVID-19. Please find details below.     Steps for entering or returning to the United States




					elevatecharter.com
				





So unless there has been guidance removing this requirement, they are breaking the law.  I would think that if the rule had been withdrawn, these charter companies would not still have that page up, but I could be wrong.  I did look for any evidence of its withdrawal and couldn't find any.


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> So the contagious/incubation period is now only several hours? If they caught Covid from that flight, they would not test positive for a week. Maybe more. Sounds like their exposure came well before their flight to DC.




But is that better?  All that means is that they were probably MORE contagious while on the plane and in their meetings around DC.

Science sucks sometimes.


----------



## lizkat

Not to make light of a serious issue but this made me laugh out loud.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1416927410801594368/


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> Not to make light of a serious issue but this made me laugh out loud.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1416927410801594368/




Does anyone who has actually seen the needle they use for the shot still believe this?    It is such a fine gauge needle there is no way we have microchips small enough to pass through it.  It's not like they use a horse needle. 

On a side note: Two more on the plane have tested positive.  And they all met in person with the Vice President.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Does anyone who has actually seen the needle they use for the shot still believe this?    It is such a fine gauge needle there is no way we have microchips small enough to pass through it.  It's not like they use a horse needle.
> 
> On a side note: Two more on the plane have tested positive.  And they all met in person with the Vice President.



Shouldn't matter if she is fully vaccinated, worse case is she gets a little sick but it's also a lesson that this thing is nowhere near over. Anytime I go into a public setting I still wear a mask and socially distance when possible no matter what the CDC or anyone else says, we have to have some personal responsibility in all of this. 

We also have unvaccinated friends that we refuse to hang out with, I don't even want to get a mild version of this thing, who would when you can take measures to prevent it?


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> Shouldn't matter if she is fully vaccinated,



No it shouldn't but supposedly all 60 on the plane were fully vaccinated but so far 5 of the 60 have tested positive.  

I have to wonder if they all had the same vaccine or if it is a combination of different ones.  Also, they haven't said if it is the Delta or not.


----------



## Deleted member 199

Herdfan said:


> Does anyone who has actually seen the needle they use for the shot still believe this?    It is such a fine gauge needle there is no way we have microchips small enough to pass through it.  It's not like they use a horse needle.
> 
> On a side note: Two more on the plane have tested positive.  And they all met in person with the Vice President.



Counter point:

- has anyone who believes global warming/climate change is a myth, experienced weather in the last, let's say 5 years?

- has anyone who believes Obama is a Muslim seen him praying at a Mosque, or refusing to eat Bacon, or what have you?

- has anyone who believes More Guns is the solution to Gun Violence ever seen a country with working gun control?

- has anyone who believes a foetus is a 'person' from the moment of conception ever seen what exactly that 'person' is?

- has anyone who believes Reaganomics (trickle down economics) works ever seen what it's like for the people at the bottom?


Or, to sum it up in one point: has anyone who believes 90% of Republican/Right wing talking points, ever considered the reality of the topic at hand, for even a moment?


----------



## Deleted member 199

Stephen.R said:


> Counter point:
> 
> - has anyone who believes global warming/climate change is a myth, experienced weather in the last, let's say 5 years?
> 
> - has anyone who believes Obama is a Muslim seen him praying at a Mosque, or refusing to eat Bacon, or what have you?
> 
> - has anyone who believes More Guns is the solution to Gun Violence ever seen a country with working gun control?
> 
> - has anyone who believes a foetus is a 'person' from the moment of conception ever seen what exactly that 'person' is?
> 
> - has anyone who believes Reaganomics (trickle down economics) works ever seen what it's like for the people at the bottom?
> 
> 
> Or, to sum it up in one point: has anyone who believes 90% of Republican/Right wing talking points, ever considered the reality of the topic at hand, for even a moment?



To followup on this. I'm not trying to just "republicans bad" you.

I'm trying to highlight that believing shit someone said in spite of how ridiculous it sounds, is a pretty common occurrence in that big tent. 

I'm not trying to suggest that "lefties" are immune to this phenomenon, but it definitely seems to be less common for people "on the left" to just believe shit they're told, not just without supporting evidence, but _in spite_ of evidence to the contrary.


----------



## Eric

Stephen.R said:


> Counter point:
> 
> - has anyone who believes global warming/climate change is a myth, experienced weather in the last, let's say 5 years?
> 
> - has anyone who believes Obama is a Muslim seen him praying at a Mosque, or refusing to eat Bacon, or what have you?
> 
> - has anyone who believes More Guns is the solution to Gun Violence ever seen a country with working gun control?
> 
> - has anyone who believes a foetus is a 'person' from the moment of conception ever seen what exactly that 'person' is?
> 
> - has anyone who believes Reaganomics (trickle down economics) works ever seen what it's like for the people at the bottom?
> 
> 
> Or, to sum it up in one point: has anyone who believes 90% of Republican/Right wing talking points, ever considered the reality of the topic at hand, for even a moment?



And I'll add that if a plane full of Dems is the first time you've been outraged about COVID spread while you sat silently over the last year as Trump held dozens of indoor rallies without masks while this thing was in full swing, you MIGHT be a partisan Republican.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> But is that better?  All that means is that they were probably MORE contagious while on the plane and in their meetings around DC.
> 
> Science sucks sometimes.






Herdfan said:


> No it shouldn't but supposedly all 60 on the plane were fully vaccinated but so far 5 of the 60 have tested positive.
> 
> I have to wonder if they all had the same vaccine or if it is a combination of different ones.  Also, they haven't said if it is the Delta or not.




CDC guidelines also now tell us that if you’ve been completely vaccinated it’s safe to be with other people who have also been vaccinated. Indoors. (In a car or private plane?)

The vaccine does not prevent Covid. No one ever said it did. What it prevents is the extreme cases whether it’s the original or the Delta variant.


----------



## Deleted member 199

I'm not a doctor obviously, but I thought the whole point of vaccination is that it vastly reduces chances of transmission (both to pass it on and to catch it) but that it also massively reduces the chances of hospitalisation, and the need for critical care.

Last year all I heard from certain angles, when it was killing people left right and centre, with no vaccine available was "it's just a flu, it's just a cold".

Now that there's an actual vaccine that (in the case of what Americans are getting at least) seems to be very effective at reducing infections, and preventing the vast number of hospitalisations and deaths, suddenly it's turned to faux outrage because a group of fully vaccinated people met someone else fully vaccinated.


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> CDC guidelines also now tell us that if you’ve been completely vaccinated it’s safe to be with other people who have also been vaccinated. Indoors. (In a car or private plane?)
> 
> The vaccine does not prevent Covid. No one ever said it did. What it prevents is the extreme cases whether it’s the original or the Delta variant.




The CDC can say whatever they want, but the Biden admin rule overrides their guidance.  And right now the Biden admin is saying masking on charter flights is required.




Eric said:


> And I'll add that if a plane full of Dems is the first time you've been outraged about COVID spread while you sat silently over the last year as Trump held dozens of indoor rallies without masks while this thing was in full swing, you MIGHT be a partisan Republican.




I will be completely honest on this.  I am more outraged at the idea of the "Rules for thee, but not for me" attitudes of lawmakers on BOTH sides.  This one just happens to be Dems behaving badly.  I care more about that than them actually not being masked.  

And I am surprised at members of this board NOT being outraged over this as over the past year+ the mantra was all about following the rules and being masked and I was a horrible person because I hate masks etc.    But I will say one thing, there is not one single time (at least not that I remember) that I failed to wear a mask when or where it was required.




Stephen.R said:


> To followup on this. I'm not trying to just "republicans bad" you.
> 
> I'm trying to highlight that believing shit someone said in spite of how ridiculous it sounds, is a pretty common occurrence in that big tent.
> 
> I'm not trying to suggest that "lefties" are immune to this phenomenon, but it definitely seems to be less common for people "on the left" to just believe shit they're told, not just without supporting evidence, but _in spite_ of evidence to the contrary.




Let me give you a little hint.  I am not a registered Republican.  In fact, I am registered as a Democrat.

But to answer some of your questions.  These are my opinions, so there are no sources.

I don't believe climate change is a "myth", I simply don't think increased taxes are the solution.

I don't believe Obama is Muslim.  I believe he could be a Muslim sympathizer.

I believe we need to control the guns in the hands of criminals, not law-abiding citizens.  Control those first, then we can talk.

I am not opposed to abortion.  I just think you should be able to make that decision within the first trimester.  Mid-second at the latest.  Just like most of the European countries people like to hold up as examples.  Some European countries even have mandatory waiting periods.  Abortion should be safe, legal and rare.  I do not agree with those who celebrate their abortions.

There has to be be some element of trickle down in any working economic model.  If I want to buy a $10M yacht, there are a lot of people who will earn a living from my purchase.  If we as a country only bought things we need, our economy would be a mess.  Consumption is a driving force in a healthy economy.  But like anything, too much will start causing harm.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> The CDC can say whatever they want, but the Biden admin rule overrides their guidance.  And right now the Biden admin is saying masking on charter flights is required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will be completely honest on this.  I am more outraged at the idea of the "Rules for thee, but not for me" attitudes of lawmakers on BOTH sides.  This one just happens to be Dems behaving badly.  I care more about that than them actually not being masked.
> 
> And I am surprised at members of this board NOT being outraged over this as over the past year+ the mantra was all about following the rules and being masked and I was a horrible person because I hate masks etc.    But I will say one thing, there is not one single time (at least not that I remember) that I failed to wear a mask when or where it was required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me give you a little hint.  I am not a registered Republican.  In fact, I am registered as a Democrat.
> 
> But to answer some of your questions.  These are my opinions, so there are no sources.
> 
> I don't believe climate change is a "myth", I simply don't think increased taxes are the solution.
> 
> I don't believe Obama is Muslim.  I believe he could be a Muslim sympathizer.
> 
> I believe we need to control the guns in the hands of criminals, not law-abiding citizens.  Control those first, then we can talk.
> 
> I am not opposed to abortion.  I just think you should be able to make that decision within the first trimester.  Mid-second at the latest.  Just like most of the European countries people like to hold up as examples.  Some European countries even have mandatory waiting periods.  Abortion should be safe, legal and rare.  I do not agree with those who celebrate their abortions.
> 
> There has to be be some element of trickle down in any working economic model.  If I want to buy a $10M yacht, there are a lot of people who will earn a living from my purchase.  If we as a country only bought things we need, our economy would be a mess.  Consumption is a driving force in a healthy economy.  But like anything, too much will start causing harm.



You might want to change your party affiliation. The list above is a great summary of the Republican platform.

Also, what is a “Muslim sympathizer”? Is that a bad thing in your mind? Is this belief based on some evidence?


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Does anyone who has actually seen the needle they use for the shot still believe this? It is such a fine gauge needle there is no way we have microchips small enough to pass through it. It's not like they use a horse needle.




Who the heck knows WHAT people believe now, considering all the misinformation that's out and about.

On a positive note, the National Science Foundation has made a $1.5 milllion grant for development of a series of in-school lessons about covid_19 that include didactic info on how viruses and vaccines work, some hands-on research, Q&A and mentoring by regional medical school residents and professors.   The goal is to separate science from politics without losing a focus on how disparities in people's economic and educational backgrounds can affect how health issues are perceived and resolved.   

Anyway it's been taken up in the Rochester (NY) area and got a writeup in the local paper.   University of Rochester medical school has provided mentors from resident and teaching staff.   I have no doubt some critics will seize on the idea of "social justice" inclusion in the series of lessons as entirely political.   So it goes.  Meanwhile interest in the series of lessons is picking up anyway and not just in the Rochester area.    It beats watching kids and their parents picking up total BS off uninformed or malicious social media.









						Science teachers tackle COVID through social justice lens
					

Several local school districts are part of a project through the University of Rochester to push "justice-center science teaching."



					www.democratandchronicle.com


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> You might want to change your party affiliation. The list above is a great summary of the Republican platform.
> 
> Also, what is a “Muslim sympathizer”? Is that a bad thing in your mind? Is this belief based on some evidence?




I do.  We switched to Democrat back in 2004 to vote against a particularly bad Democrat candidate for the Supreme Court.  His brother was the current AG, like that isn't a conflict.  He won the primary but lost to an R in the general.  That was the beginning of WV turning from Blue to Red.  When we move to AZ I will register as either a Libertarian or Independent.

Just a feeling actually.  Like him refusing to use the term "radical Islamic terrorist" or continually referring to ISIS as ISIL when even the liberal media used those terms.


----------



## Deleted member 199

Herdfan said:


> Let me give you a little hint. I am not a registered Republican. In fact, I am registered as a Democrat.



You can be registered as whatever you want. You asked why a bunch of anti-vaxxer right winger conspiracy theorists believe that a microchip could fit down a small guage needle, I'm just telling you: it's par for the course with these people.




Herdfan said:


> These are my opinions, so there are no sources.



Heh, old habits die hard huh.



Herdfan said:


> I simply don't think increased taxes are the solution.



You don't think it's *at all* involved in the solution, or you don't think it's the *only* solution?

For example, if a tax _credit_ were offered for companies that invest in _genuinely_ improved processes/practices/machinery/whatever, but an existing corporate taxable deduction or special rate or whatever was allowed to expire, is that "taxes bad"? Or is it rewarding companies that embrace newer, more efficient processes and technologies, and as a result reduce/eliminate their impact on climate change?




Herdfan said:


> I believe he could be a Muslim sympathizer.



That's a very loaded term, the way you _seem_ to be using it. I'm sympathetic to muslims being yet another ostracised, mistreated minority in certain countries. But I feel like you're using it the way the French used it to describe some people in WW2..



Herdfan said:


> I believe we need to control the guns in the hands of criminals, not law-abiding citizens. Control those first, then we can talk.



So, that'd be a "no" on having seen how gun control actually works in other places then?



Herdfan said:


> I am not opposed to abortion. I just think you should be able to make that decision within the first trimester. Mid-second at the latest. Just like most of the European countries people like to hold up as examples. Some European countries even have mandatory waiting periods. Abortion should be safe, legal and rare.



Even as a father now, I don't honestly remember the details of what development stage is reached when, and would suggest doctors are better placed than I to suggest when development is beyond just "a ball of cells", but generally I agree.



Herdfan said:


> I do not agree with those who celebrate their abortions.



.... Wut? Is "no-more-baby shower" a thing people do now? Are you suggesting there are masses of people out there demanding the right to have an abortion on a whim at 37 weeks or something?



Herdfan said:


> There has to be be some element of trickle down in any working economic model. If I want to buy a $10M yacht, there are a lot of people who will earn a living from my purchase.



Rich people buying shit and paying the wages of poorer people is an inevitable facet of capitalism, that isn't what trickle down economics is about, really. It's specifically about giving those rich people tax breaks, under the claim that they'll spend that money and it'll end up in the hands of the poor.

There's one little wrinkle though. It demonstrably does not work.

For example (because paraphrasing is just going to butcher the details):



> A 2020 working paper by London School of Economics and Political Science researchers compared the results of countries that passed tax cuts in a specific year with those that did not, over a five decade period from 1965 to 2015 in the 18 member countries of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. It found that contrary to the claims of trickle-down theory, tax cuts for the rich had no "significant effect on employment or economic growth". They found no evidence that the cuts induced "labour supply responses" from high-income individuals (i.e. "lead to more hours of work, more effort, etc.") that boosted economic activity. They did find evidence of a "sizable" increase in income inequality. "Major tax cuts for the rich increase the top 1% share of pre-tax national income in the years following the reform. The magnitude of the effect is sizeable; on average, each major reform leads to a rise in top 1% share of pre-tax national income of 0.8 percentage points."[6]




You as a squillionaire spending money on expensive shit obviously puts money into the economy - but giving you a tax break _hoping_ you'll do that, and pretending that it's as-good or better than giving the 'working class' a fairer tax system and the benefits of a society with money to spend (yes, from taxes on your squillions) is naive at best.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> I do.  We switched to Democrat back in 2004 to vote against a particularly bad Democrat candidate for the Supreme Court.  His brother was the current AG, like that isn't a conflict.  He won the primary but lost to an R in the general.  That was the beginning of WV turning from Blue to Red.  When we move to AZ I will register as either a Libertarian or Independent.
> 
> Just a feeling actually.  Like him refusing to use the term "radical Islamic terrorist" or continually referring to ISIS as ISIL when even the liberal media used those terms.



So you do think being a Muslim sympathizer is a bad thing. I guess you don’t have any Muslim friends. Do you think most Muslims are terrorists or something?

What do you think of Grover Norquist?









						Grover Norquist - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Just a feeling actually. Like him refusing to use the term "radical Islamic terrorist" or continually referring to ISIS as ISIL when even the liberal media used those terms.




But "Muslim sympathizer?"      The term implies conflation of the entire religion with radicalized political Islam.


----------



## Runs For Fun

SuperMatt said:


> You might want to change your party affiliation. The list above is a great summary of the Republican platform.
> 
> Also, what is a “Muslim sympathizer”? Is that a bad thing in your mind? Is this belief based on some evidence?



This is also what I'm wondering. What the hell is a "Muslim sympathizer"?


----------



## B S Magnet

Herdfan said:


> I don't believe Obama is Muslim.  I believe he could be a Muslim sympathizer.




What the fuck is a “Muslim sympathizer” other than a fascistic dogwhistle? People I care about are Muslim — both active in observing Islam and secular.



Herdfan said:


> I believe we need to control the guns in the hands of criminals, not law-abiding citizens.  Control those first, then we can talk.




Abolishing all firearms ammunition — allowing a public buyback grace window — would be nice.



Herdfan said:


> I am not opposed to abortion.  I just think you should be able to make that decision within the first trimester.  Mid-second at the latest.




After your Susie White Supremacist Soccer Mom strawman elsewhere, I cannot begin to express just how unsurprised I am to hear you say this.


----------



## Eric

It's sad to see this thread turned into a Democrat vs Republican debate, we've flown the coop here from what was a decent and productive topic.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> I am not opposed to abortion.  I just think you should be able to make that decision within the first trimester.  Mid-second at the latest.  Just like most of the European countries people like to hold up as examples.  Some European countries even have mandatory waiting periods.  Abortion should be safe, legal and rare.  I do not agree with those who celebrate their abortions.



Meaning you know nothing about state abortion laws in the USA...
Many states have a 16 month deadline. The first step is adequate sex education that
1) Reduces the risk of unwanted pregnancies
2) Increases awareness so pregnancy is recognized ASAP
It's even cost efficient to teach kids how not to get pregnant (DUH). Guess who advocate against all this. 



Herdfan said:


> There has to be be some element of trickle down in any working economic model.



No there's none. It's bullshit made up by lobbyists to buy influence. 


Herdfan said:


> I don't believe Obama is Muslim.  I believe he could be a Muslim sympathizer.



You spout a lot of stupid shit that I decided to ignore but this is where I draw the line. If you don't know what's the giant fucking issue with this statement, you are absolutely hopeless. Also, asking why you're considered a white supremacist?! Because of shit like this.


----------



## User.45

B S Magnet said:


> Abolishing all firearms ammunition — allowing a public buyback grace window — would be nice.



In America, nobody takes a larger proportion of the ~250K "lost" legally owned guns a year than southern white households. Guess who feels the most victimized by gun control proposals.


----------



## B S Magnet

P_X said:


> In America, nobody takes a larger proportion of the ~250K "lost" legally owned guns a year than southern white households. Guess who feels the most victimized by gun control proposals.




I grew up in Texas. ::drops mic::

Folks who love guns can keep their guns. Abolishing the ammunition doesn’t take away from that at all.


----------



## B S Magnet

Wear a mask, get immunized, and respect the folks around you in the process by doing both.


----------



## User.45

B S Magnet said:


> Wear a mask, get immunized, and respect the folks around you in the process by doing both.



And be aware that vaccines are highly effective but not perfect and efficacy drops over time.


----------



## B S Magnet

P_X said:


> And be aware that vaccines are highly effective but not perfect and efficacy drops over time.




That’s what booster shots are for.


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> It's sad to see this thread turned into a Democrat vs Republican debate, we've flown the coop here from what was a decent and productive topic.




It's just a sidebar....  a longish one, and certainly the kind that PRSI mods eventually cascade-deleted.    You could always move part of the thread to a separate thread if a tangent-turned-topic becomes  too much the focus as the thread continues.

Or hey, just let it go and see who finally remembers the thread is about Covid-19 and not so much about Obama as "Muslim sympathizer" and other trial balloons or rabbit holes or escape hatches. 

(OK I'm going back to wondering why all my already-read mail disappeared out of one of my Mail gmail inboxes and required an explicit command to sync to get it back.  It happens once in awhile, no clue why.  Weird.)

Go ahead, delete my post for going off topic.   I'm still used to it from so much time spent getting over it in that other place.


----------



## Deleted member 199

P_X said:


> vaccines are highly effective but not perfect and efficacy drops over time



Some of them seem to start off with a cliff dive in terms of efficacy


----------



## User.45

Stephen.R said:


> Some of them seem to start off with a cliff dive in terms of efficacy



Those don't make it to FDA approval though. But yeah, outside the USA there exist a few low-efficacy vaccines circulated. 


B S Magnet said:


> That’s what booster shots are for.



Without a doubt, but I'll wait for CDC recs / FDA approvals on how that should look.


----------



## Deleted member 199

P_X said:


> yeah, outside the USA there exist a few low-efficacy vaccines circulated


----------



## Pumbaa

Stephen.R said:


> View attachment 7255



In theory low-efficacy vaccines could have helped bridge that gap.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> I believe he could be a Muslim sympathizer.



Whew! Well anything would be better than being a Christian sympathizer, right?

Um…WTF?



Herdfan said:


> I am not opposed to abortion. I just think you should be able to make that decision within the first trimester. Mid-second at the latest. Just like most of the European countries people like to hold up as examples. Some European countries even have mandatory waiting periods. Abortion should be safe, legal and rare. I do not agree with those who celebrate their abortions.



You do realize that states have been hastily trying to change existing laws to make sure abortions are illegal. Period. And nobody. Ever, has celebrated an abortion. It’s a horrible thing to undergo. It’s also important to remember that while lawmakers are busy trying to overturn Roe, most women don’t even know they’re pregnant before the 5-6th week.


----------



## User.45

Stephen.R said:


> View attachment 7255



An FDA approval is still one of the highest standards to meet. Lower efficacy isn't a major issue as long as data is adequately established and a contingency plan is generated. The latter is my major issue with countries where there are vaccines with less evidence used.


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> You do realize that states have been hastily trying to change existing laws to make sure abortions are illegal. Period. And nobody. Ever, has celebrated an abortion. It’s a horrible thing to undergo. It’s also important to remember that while lawmakers are busy trying to overturn Roe, most women don’t even know they’re pregnant before the 5-6th week.




I do.  And I hope SCOTUS slaps the majority of them down.  The bans on late term (3rd trimester) can stand unless medically necessary.

As for celebrating abortion, are you 100% sure you want to make such a definitive statement?   So what would you consider "celebrating"?  Just want to make sure we are on the same page discussing it.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Wow.
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1417127765669724160/


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> The CDC can say whatever they want, but the Biden admin rule overrides their guidance.  And right now the Biden admin is saying masking on charter flights is required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will be completely honest on this.  I am more outraged at the idea of the "Rules for thee, but not for me" attitudes of lawmakers on BOTH sides.  This one just happens to be Dems behaving badly.  I care more about that than them actually not being masked.
> 
> And I am surprised at members of this board NOT being outraged over this as over the past year+ the mantra was all about following the rules and being masked and I was a horrible person because I hate masks etc.    But I will say one thing, there is not one single time (at least not that I remember) that I failed to wear a mask when or where it was required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me give you a little hint.  I am not a registered Republican.  In fact, I am registered as a Democrat.
> 
> But to answer some of your questions.  These are my opinions, so there are no sources.
> 
> I don't believe climate change is a "myth", I simply don't think increased taxes are the solution.
> 
> I don't believe Obama is Muslim.  I believe he could be a Muslim sympathizer.
> 
> I believe we need to control the guns in the hands of criminals, not law-abiding citizens.  Control those first, then we can talk.
> 
> I am not opposed to abortion.  I just think you should be able to make that decision within the first trimester.  Mid-second at the latest.  Just like most of the European countries people like to hold up as examples.  Some European countries even have mandatory waiting periods.  Abortion should be safe, legal and rare.  I do not agree with those who celebrate their abortions.
> 
> There has to be be some element of trickle down in any working economic model.  If I want to buy a $10M yacht, there are a lot of people who will earn a living from my purchase.  If we as a country only bought things we need, our economy would be a mess.  Consumption is a driving force in a healthy economy.  But like anything, too much will start causing harm.



_I don't believe Obama is Muslim. I believe he could be a Muslim sympathizer._

…based on?


----------



## B S Magnet

Herdfan said:


> The bans on late term (3rd trimester) can stand unless medically necessary.




Yes, sir. Under His eye, sir.



Herdfan said:


> As for celebrating abortion, are you 100% sure you want to make such a definitive statement?




Go back and _slowly — sloooowly — _re-read @Alli’s post.


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> I do.  And I hope SCOTUS slaps the majority of them down.  The bans on late term (3rd trimester) can stand unless medically necessary.
> 
> As for celebrating abortion, are you 100% sure you want to make such a definitive statement?   So what would you consider "celebrating"?  Just want to make sure we are on the same page discussing it.



_Celebrating abortion_….come on Dude…
As a seperate comment, as a general rule the human race can do with a ton less of unwanted pregnancies. This is one of the ironies of Conservatives/GOP who want government out of our lives, they make a huge exception for abortion and suppressing the vote. Of course it could be questioned is today’s GOP actually conservative ot just grabbers of power?


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wow.
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1417127765669724160/



Who the fuck are these people (Faux News), they for real?? And there are people who actually listen to this shirt and nod in agreement??


----------



## Deleted member 199

P_X said:


> An FDA approval is still one of the highest standards to meet. Lower efficacy isn't a major issue as long as data is adequately established and a contingency plan is generated. The latter is my major issue with countries where there are vaccines with less evidence used.



I’m not suggesting the fda standards are bad or wrong.

im simply pointing out that some places have zero choice of vaccine - it’s one shit choice or nothing.

just recently the government here was caught out, discussing how many health workers (who had all been given 2 doses of sinovac) were getting sick and dying still, and the concern raised was “if we give them Pfizer or something else as a 3rd/booster dose it’ll *look bad* because we told people sinovac is fine”.

every time I see news about results of sinovac related real world results it just paints a worse and worse picture.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> I do.  And I hope SCOTUS slaps the majority of them down.  The bans on late term (3rd trimester) can stand unless medically necessary.
> 
> As for celebrating abortion, are you 100% sure you want to make such a definitive statement?   So what would you consider "celebrating"?  Just want to make sure we are on the same page discussing it.



I am 100% certain. And while it’s nice of you to agree about the medically necessary part, the laws being written these days are allowing no excuses.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Play stupid games….








						24-year-old didn't get vaccinated for COVID-19. Then, had to have a double lung transplant.
					

A 24-year-old man is urging young people to get vaccinated after he underwent a double lung transplant after contracting COVID-19.



					eu.usatoday.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Huntn said:


> Who the fuck are these people (Faux News), they for real?? And there are people who actually listen to this shirt and nod in agreement??



Kilmeade had a regular association with this veterans charity, led by a NASCAR driver’s girlfriend… who was stealing the donations supposedly meant for veterans…









						Documents: Kurt Busch's ex-girlfriend used veterans charity as bank
					






					abcnews.go.com
				




He is a terrible person so that association is not surprising.


----------



## JayMysteri0

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wow.
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1417127765669724160/



Followup?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1417318717059477508/

It doesn't seem to be the safety or lives of others or ridiculous claims about voting machines that will motivate Faux News

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1417305977796317187/

It's the threats of lawsuits that seem to do the trick.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Followup?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1417318717059477508/
> 
> It doesn't seem to be the safety or lives of others or ridiculous claims about voting machines that will motivate Faux News
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1417305977796317187/
> 
> It's the threats of lawsuits that seem to do the trick.



It's like Trump's Jan 6 speech including the words lawfully and peacefully automatically undoes everything else.
I've taken care of patients with super rare autoimmune neurological disorders that can be potentially linked to a flu shot.
People who partake in air traval take higher risks yet Hannity doesn't tell people to think twice about flying.


----------



## Huntn

Runs For Fun said:


> Play stupid games….
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 24-year-old didn't get vaccinated for COVID-19. Then, had to have a double lung transplant.
> 
> 
> A 24-year-old man is urging young people to get vaccinated after he underwent a double lung transplant after contracting COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> eu.usatoday.com



You are who your choices are. So someone can seem like a decent person, but if they make terrible choices despite all the warnings what can be said about that? I know there are reasons other than Donald Trump, but can’t pass on a chance to say that shithead deserves much blame for absolutely terrible, self serving, disreputable, evil leadership.


----------



## JayMysteri0

HOLY...    
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1417441678001123331/


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Followup?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1417318717059477508/
> 
> It doesn't seem to be the safety or lives of others or ridiculous claims about voting machines that will motivate Faux News
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1417305977796317187/
> 
> It's the threats of lawsuits that seem to do the trick.



What pisses me off about this, is you don't have to discuss it with your doctor unless you have a unique medical history most people don't have. You just go and get the fucking shot. It's like telling people to consult a lawyer before getting an insurance.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Also, the investigation continues...



> New Data Leads To Rethinking (Once More) Where The Pandemic Actually Began
> 
> 
> One of the scientists who signed a recent letter calling for more investigation of the lab-leak origin theory says new data has come to light. And that information has changed his thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org



_Back in May, a group of scientists — many at the top of the virology field — shifted the debate about the origins of COVID-19. They published a letter in the journal Science saying the lab-leak theory needs to be taken more seriously by the scientific community.

Given the current evidence available, the scientists wrote, the outbreak is just as likely to have originated from a laboratory — specifically the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which studies coronaviruses — as from an infected animal. "We must take hypotheses about both natural and laboratory spillovers seriously until we have sufficient data," they concluded.

Now one of the scientists who signed that letter says new data has come to light. And that information, summarized in an online review, has changed his thinking._


----------



## Herdfan

Huntn said:


> _I don't believe Obama is Muslim. I believe he could be a Muslim sympathizer._
> 
> …based on?




I addressed this before.  But he refused to say "Radical Islamic Terrorist" and insisted on calling ISIS ISIL when even the liberal media called it ISIS.

So it is just my opinion.


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> I am 100% certain. And while it’s nice of you to agree about the medically necessary part, the laws being written these days are allowing no excuses.




So proudly wearing a shirt that says "Ask me about my abortion" is not celebrating it?


----------



## B S Magnet

Herdfan said:


> So proudly wearing a shirt that says "Ask me about my abortion" is not celebrating it?




Nope.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Also, the investigation continues...
> 
> 
> _Back in May, a group of scientists — many at the top of the virology field — shifted the debate about the origins of COVID-19. They published a letter in the journal Science saying the lab-leak theory needs to be taken more seriously by the scientific community.
> 
> Given the current evidence available, the scientists wrote, the outbreak is just as likely to have originated from a laboratory — specifically the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which studies coronaviruses — as from an infected animal. "We must take hypotheses about both natural and laboratory spillovers seriously until we have sufficient data," they concluded.
> 
> Now one of the scientists who signed that letter says new data has come to light. And that information, summarized in an online review, has changed his thinking._



Heeeey. The money is in the subsequent paragraphs:



> Why the locations of the market and the lab matter​
> 
> Then Garry did something that the WHO didn't: He added to the map the locations of the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market and the Wuhan Institute of Virology, where scientists study bat coronaviruses. "It's a very simple thing to do," Worobey says. "But it really paints a pretty clear picture, right?"
> 
> The dots show the cases starting right near the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market and then radiating out from there. "The Huanan market seems like the bull's-eye of this outbreak. It's pretty extraordinary."
> 
> What about cases near the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), which is more than 10 miles from the market? "There are no cases around the WIV," Worobey says. "If the outbreak did start in the lab, the bottom line is, it would be odd for it not to be spreading from there rather than from elsewhere."
> 
> The other piece of data, which helped shift Worobey's thinking, concerns the products sold at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market. Was there anything at the market that has been previously known to spread SARS coronaviruses?
> 
> Since the pandemic began, the Chinese government has claimed the vendors at the market didn't sell any illegal wildlife. "They said the market was operating completely legally," says biosecurity expert Gigi Gronvall at Johns Hopkins University. "And just on the face of it, you just know, that's not correct.
> 
> "And lo and behold, it's not," she adds.
> 
> Last month, researchers published a study showing that the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market was one of four markets in Wuhan selling illegal wildlife, including palm civets and raccoon dogs, which are both known to spread SARS-CoV-2. Scientists believe civets triggered the first SARS coronavirus pandemic, in 2003.




I wish people understood the difference between hypothesis and theory. It's literally lesson 1 or 2 in science 101. You can hypothesize anything, but for those to become theories you need consistent and considerable amount of supportive evidence, which was never really the case for the lab leak hypothesis. 

I kinda feel bad about it, but the first thing I check when a scientist is referred to is their google scholar page:








						Michael Worobey
					

Professor - Cited by 13,054 - Virus evolution and emergence




					scholar.google.com
				



This guy's legit.


----------



## User.45

B S Magnet said:


> Nope.



It's off topic but he has no idea that just the terminology he uses gives away his sources on the topic. For a medical person "late-term" means absolutely nothing and this term is used exactly for this reason. The catch-all medical term is _viability_ which is a moving target when it comes to foeti. 

Thus far we have learnt that @Herdfan knows nothing about women (cis or trans), Blacks, Obama, Muslims, biology, ecology, economics, hell, even Hispanics. While I consider my duty to fight ignorance, I too have limits to my ambitions. I doubt we'd be able to rectify any of these deficiencies.


----------



## Herdfan

And a sixth person on the flight has now tested positive.  That's 10%.  

And this will most likely be the last update on this because they are stopping updates


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> And a sixth person on the flight has now tested positive.  That's 10%.
> 
> And this will most likely be the last update on this because they are stopping updates



If this thread were about unmasked Democrats on a plane we could maybe understand your obsession but it's really more about COVID in general so please stop derailing it. Feel free to start your own thread if you want.


----------



## B S Magnet

P_X said:


> It's off topic but he has no idea that just the terminology he uses gives away his sources on the topic. For a medical person "late-term" means absolutely nothing and this term is used exactly for this reason. The catch-all medical term is _viability_ which is a moving target when it comes to foeti.




Yup.



P_X said:


> Thus far we have learnt that @Herdfan knows nothing about women (cis or trans), Blacks, Obama, Muslims, biology, ecology, economics, hell, even Hispanics. While I consider my duty to fight ignorance, I too have limits to my ambitions. I doubt we'd be able to rectify any of these deficiencies.




Yup.


----------



## Deleted member 199

P_X said:


> Heeeey. The money is in the subsequent paragraphs:



I kind of think the linked "summarised online" text is wrong, isn't that linking to the aforementioned 'letter' that a bunch of them signed? I got caught up in 5 pages of names and institutes in it and figured it can't be a 'summary' at that point.


That was quite interesting, but also quite shocking that the proximity of the first cases to the two theorised sources, was not considered previously.


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> I addressed this before.  But he refused to say "Radical Islamic Terrorist" and insisted on calling ISIS ISIL when even the liberal media called it ISIS.
> 
> So it is just my opinion.



Imo, Obama instead of kowtowing to terrorists was trying to avoid sounding like he was against all Muslims. I’m not sure about what the significance is of saying ISIS vs ISIL? If it’s the same organization, or no?


----------



## Deleted member 199

Herdfan said:


> And a sixth person on the flight has now tested positive. That's 10%.
> 
> And this will most likely be the last update on this because they are stopping updates



And how many of them have serious symptoms, or been hospitalised? So far I've seen two articles saying they collectively have zero or mild symptoms.


----------



## Deleted member 199

Huntn said:


> I’m not sure about what the significance is of saying ISIS vs ISIL? If it’s the same organization, or no?



It depends on the translation from Arabic basically. Neither is a literal 1:1 translation from the original name,


----------



## User.45

Stephen.R said:


> And how many of them have serious symptoms, or been hospitalised? So far I've seen two articles saying they collectively have zero or mild symptoms.



Yeah this is the issue. The vaccine was tested for preventing symptomatic disease, they didn't study the efficacy in preventing asymptomatic disease to that same scale (AFAIK). This is why this tells very little about anything, other than masks should be worn in larger groups in spaces with close circuit ventilation. Nothing new here.


----------



## JayMysteri0

I imagine this image may offend some, but it's turning out to be more & more true.








> KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor: Profile Of The Unvaccinated
> 
> 
> This report explores the roughly a third of adults who have not received a COVID-19 vaccine and finds that, compared to vaccinated adults, they are younger, more likely to identify as Republican or…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kff.org



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1417492319016833029/

Along with the younger people who unfortunately imagine they maybe indestructible.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> I addressed this before.  But he refused to say "Radical Islamic Terrorist" and insisted on calling ISIS ISIL when even the liberal media called it ISIS.
> 
> So it is just my opinion.



What does ISIL stand for vs what does ISIS stand for?

Why does saying those 3 magical words matter to you?


----------



## Deleted member 199

P_X said:


> Yeah this is the issue. The vaccine was tested for preventing symptomatic disease, they didn't study the efficacy in preventing asymptomatic disease to that same scale (AFAIK). This is why this tells very little about anything, other than masks should be worn in larger groups in spaces with close circuit ventilation. Nothing new here.



So, while I realise you aren't a virologist or epidemiologist, to the best of your knowledge if someone has it, but is asymptomatic - does that suggest they're not being 'harmed' internally (i.e. severe lung damage is a common one with CODID, right?)? I thought symptoms were generally either (a) directly because of the harm being done (e.g. trouble breathing due to physical damage to lung tissue), or (b) a result of your bodies attempt to fight it off (e.g. fever). Is there a scenario where it's doing damage internally, but the person has zero symptoms?

_Not_ being snarky if that wasn't obvious.


----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> If this thread were about unmasked Democrats on a plane we could maybe understand your obsession but it's really more about COVID in general so please stop derailing it. Feel free to start your own thread if you want.




Sure thing.  It's your party.

But the unmasked Democrats on the plane have now infected two staffers, one WH and one from Pelosi's office with COVID.  So if that isn't about COVID, then I guess I don't understand the purpose of the thread.  But I will acquiesce to your request.  Will also not respond to questions others posted in this thread not dealing with COVID.


----------



## User.45

Stephen.R said:


> So, while I realise you aren't a virologist or epidemiologist, to the best of your knowledge if someone has it, but is asymptomatic - does that suggest they're not being 'harmed' internally (i.e. severe lung damage is a common one with CODID, right?)? I thought symptoms were generally either (a) directly because of the harm being done (e.g. trouble breathing due to physical damage to lung tissue), or (b) a result of your bodies attempt to fight it off (e.g. fever). Is there a scenario where it's doing damage internally, but the person has zero symptoms?
> 
> _Not_ being snarky if that wasn't obvious.



Nah, legit question. 
There are personal risks and societal risks. 
Personal risks that is best documented is heart inflammation regardless of severity seen in up to 73% of patients regardless of severity. It also promotes an inflammatory state that can lead to organ damage, failure, and blood clots. Most of these however are expected to present with some symptoms, as you mention an inflammatory response comes with symptoms like fever, chills, muscle aches, malaise, generalized weakness, fatigue, etc. Imagine that you have X amount of reserve. When you are young, actually have a lot of reserve, so even some low level of pneumonia could even be largely asymptomatic, whereas the same extent of lung involvement could render someone else with less reserve, like an elderly person totally incapacitated. 

The societal risks are 
1) every new host provides a new opportunity for the virus to mutate and generate a novel variant, which may be better at evading prior immunity
2) they can spread the disease further without their knowledge. Here again the biggest concern is still them not really getting sick but making the vulnerable/unvaccinated gravely ill.


----------



## Edd

Face mask advisory in Provincetown, Mass. An outbreak of 139 cases, mostly people who’re fully vaxxed. Moderate symptoms. 

For those unfamiliar, it’s a summer tourist town at the tip of Cape Cod. I love it there. Crowds can be fierce, and all of the buildings are old, low ceilings, not-ideal ventilation I’m sure. 









						Provincetown issues new mask advisory amid COVID-19 spike
					

Health officials in Provincetown announced a new face covering advisory in response to an outbreak that has grown to over 130 individuals.



					www.boston.com


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Sure thing.  It's your party.
> 
> But the unmasked Democrats on the plane have now infected two staffers, one WH and one from Pelosi's office with COVID.  So if that isn't about COVID, then I guess I don't understand the purpose of the thread.  But I will acquiesce to your request.  Will also not respond to questions others posted in this thread not dealing with COVID.



The point is the only discussion you are having about it is related to dems on a plane and that's it. We get it man, you've beaten this dead horse over and over and over, it's hyperpartisan and your ONLY angle. Go bitch about it in the political forum.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> The point is the only discussion you are having about it is related to dems on a plane and that's it. We get it man, you've beaten this dead horse over and over and over, it's hyperpartisan and your ONLY angle. Go bitch about it in the political forum.



I'll add that those who got the shots first (i.e. our "essential" politicians) will be the first set of people with breakthrough infections if there's a time element here (and there is).


----------



## JayMysteri0

Oh, it will be on like Donkey Kong now for some...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1395219226818908160/

Time for some to get deeply in their feelings, and decide that businesses should NOT be allowed to do what they want.   ...Despite all that birthday cake talk...


----------



## Herdfan

JayMysteri0 said:


> Time for some to get deeply in their feelings, and decide that businesses should NOT be allowed to do what they want.   ...Despite all that birthday cake talk...




Actually I think I have been pretty clear on this.  Businesses can do what they want, and I can choose to not give them my money.  That's how it works.


----------



## Herdfan

P_X said:


> I'll add that those who got the shots first (i.e. our "essential" politicians) will be the first set of people with breakthrough infections if there's a time element here (and there is).




So do you, in your opinion, think we will need boosters?


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> addressed this before. But he refused to say "Radical Islamic Terrorist" and insisted on calling ISIS ISIL when even the liberal media called it ISIS.





Stephen.R said:


> It depends on the translation from Arabic basically. Neither is a literal 1:1 translation from the original name,



The translation is everything. Other countries have always referred to them as Dayesh (sp?), and that would probably have solved the issue for all. But it doesn’t answer the question of what makes a Muslim sympathizer.



Herdfan said:


> So proudly wearing a shirt that says "Ask me about my abortion" is not celebrating it?



I dunno. Did you ask? I could wear a shirt that says “ask me about my cancer,” but it would not be a happy celebratory conversation. I’ve never seen such a shirt, but I would totally ask the wearer. Until such time as one of us does that, we cannot say.


----------



## JayMysteri0

> Pro-Trump Group Files Motion Against FDA to Stop Covid-19 Vaccinations in U.S.
> 
> 
> The group 'America's Frontline Doctors' held a press conference in July 2020 with a woman who says the world is run by secret lizard people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gizmodo.com





> A bizarre fringe group that calls itself “America’s Frontline Doctors” filed a motion in federal court on Monday against the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, the parent agency of the FDA, to seek an injunction that would halt all vaccinations for covid-19 in the country. And while the lawsuit is unlikely to succeed, it demonstrates just how desperate the death cult of former President Donald Trump has gotten.
> 
> The motion, filed in the U.S. Northern District Court of Alabama, falsely claims that vaccines which have been given emergency use authorization by the FDA do not actually prevent the spread of covid-19. The people behind America’s Frontline Doctors also claim that emergency use authorization should never have been granted because the coronavirus pandemic is not an emergency.
> 
> “Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (‘CDC’) data shows that the Vaccines are not effective in treating or preventing SARS-CoV-2 or COVID-19,” the group falsely claimed.
> 
> And that’s just one of many ludicrous assertions made in the lawsuit, which is filled with dozens of pages of conspiratorial nonsense and scientific illiteracy, including an unfounded claim that coronavirus vaccines have killed at least 45,000 people in the U.S.









> There are even bizarre tables that appear to have been ripped directly from the internet, warning that health measures taken to protect against covid-19 infection are identical to Communist brainwashing methods first identified in the 1950s. Seriously.










> The group behind the lawsuit, America’s Frontline Doctors, first made a name for themselves in July of 2020 when President Donald Trump was pushing hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for covid-19. The drug doesn’t help treat coronavirus and Trump never received the drug when he was treated for covid-19. Trump did, however, get vaccinated in secret.
> 
> The group gave a press conference which was ridiculed not just for shady science. America’s Frontline Doctors also associate with some of the weirdest “medical professionals” you’ll ever come across in the 21st century. As one example, Dr. Stella Immanuel, a Texas doctor who spoke at the press conference insisted that cysts were caused by people having sex with demons and witches.
> 
> Dr. Simone Gold, a doctor and lawyer in Los Angeles, founded the group and previously appeared on Fox News when Donald Trump was president. Gold also has connections to the Tea Party Patriots Foundation. Gold was also at the Washington riot on January 6, when Trump supporters stormed the Capitol building in an attempt to stop the certification of 2020's election results that made Joe Biden president. Gold even made a speech a day earlier calling the covid-19 vaccine an “experimental, biological agent deceptively named a vaccine,” according to the _Washington Post_.


----------



## Eric

I know it's easy to bash Republicans for being late to the game with vaccines but I think we should be applauding them here, Fox News, Mitch McConnell, et al. are stepping up and encouraging vaccines and right now that's what we should all be doing.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Eric said:


> I know it's easy to bash Republicans for being late to the game with vaccines but I think we should be applauding them here, Fox News, Mitch McConnell, et al. are stepping up and encouraging vaccines and right *now* that's what we should all be doing.



The reason any of those individuals got bashed at all is because of THAT highlighted word.

How many people may have died unnecessarily because they brought into partisan gamesmanship for no actual benefit?

It's that behavior to me, that defines the term "depraved indifference".  That's why it was easy & necessary to bash all those individuals, so they could only be begrudgingly dragged to this point and final show a modicum of concern for those that have been foolish enough to listen to them so far.

So no, as far as I'm concerned there's no applause.  Just wondering what finally dragged them to this point, and an understandable wondering if it's again out of concern for themselves and not those unvaccinated filling up hospitals now & stressing out medial staff.  Finally being responsible after spending so much time intentionally avoiding responsibility doesn't get a one handed clap from a dead goldfish floating in a toilet bowl.  At best it gets you a "bout fucking time assholes".

We really have to stop treating these individuals like the sane versions that may have existed some time ago & stop coddling them.  They want to tell others to be responsible for themselves like that asshat Kilamede was ranting on Faux & friends about.  It's time for them to be responsible and not act like they are some group that needs extra love.  They have no love for others, and that lack of love is leading them to follow idiots who do vaccinate, and they are the ones suffering for it.  Call the assholes & idiots out, shine the biggest light on them, so more have that unfortunately necessary mea culpa while they are in the hospital wracking up bills that are insane.  More people need to be forced to see & acknowledge how little these people *NOW* asking them to vaccinate actually give a shit about them.

I'm sorry.  I personally just can't do that.  After listening to the endless whining & crying about what we had to do when this first began, only to have that same crowd drag us back.   To the point of making this a fatal fruitless cycle, I can't help rage at the idea of "applauding" a thing concerning anyone party to this.  For Facebook, Faux, muscomitch ( really didn't vote for the aid package & gives no shits ) I have only a "one finger salute" for all of them.






_Rant over.  Sorry._


----------



## Eric

From my perspective, it's hard for me to justify saying "everyone needs to step up and do their part to get people vaccinated" and then attack them when they do. I have always taken this virus seriously and IMO we all should. The more people who get behind it, the better, no matter what it took for them to get there.


----------



## Deleted member 199

Eric said:


> From my perspective, it's hard for me to justify saying "everyone needs to step up and do their part to get people vaccinated" and then attack them when they do. I have always taken this virus seriously and IMO we all should. The more people who get behind it, the better, no matter what it took for them to get there.



I complain *a lot* about the fuckups of vaccination handling here, but you're absolutely right.

If someone does an about face and works _towards_ getting people vaccinated, in whatever way - thats a positive thing and should be encouraged.

There's plenty of time to worry about their previous idiotic actions/comments once people are vaccinated.


----------



## B S Magnet

Eric said:


> From my perspective, it's hard for me to justify saying "everyone needs to step up and do their part to get people vaccinated" and then attack them when they do. I have always taken this virus seriously and IMO we all should. The more people who get behind it, the better, no matter what it took for them to get there.




I celebrate and applaud folks who got in a line and patiently waited for up to three hours to get a vaccination, twice.

I don’t do anything for folks who resisted getting a vaccination and, worse, parroted conspiracy backwash until the moment they realized the only people getting violently ill were their fellow wooden-headed peers. Like, at this point, the bar is so low as to be just plain removed (which is the second time in a day I’ve leaned on this imagery, but as the shoe fits).


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> So proudly wearing a shirt that says "Ask me about my abortion" is not celebrating it?




Sounds like someone happy with - and willing to discuss - the right to choose, the nature of that choice, not necessarily being something they would celebrate.

Why is that so herd to understand.





Yeah, I know how I spelled it ...


----------



## Eric

Sad and 100% avoidable now.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Eric said:


> Sad and 100% avoidable now.



This is sad and infuriating at the same time.


----------



## lizkat

theSeb said:


> Trump Supporter Who Protested Against Vaccinations Dies of COVID-19
> 
> 
> Last week, she protested her state's VaxBus program, a mobile vaccination unit to help inoculate rural residents against COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com




I still think I'm sad rather than angry about a lot of these cases.  I don't usually know the level or quality of education of the anti-vaxxers who are plain citizens.  But some of the people meanwhile having "educated" them in disinforming ways about covid-19 are themselves highly educated but have chosen for sheerly political reasons to downplay covid or rail against the vaccines.   To me that's inexcusable.

One exception though as far as politics are concerned is Robert F Kennedy Jr., a Democrat and a guy who has inexplicably ended up among the dozen most highly influential misinformation spreaders on the subject of covid-19 and other vaccines.    it's inexplicable because he himself is highly educated (Harvard, London School of Economics, Pace University) and MUST know better --and not least as a result of being an outlier on the subject of vaccines within his famous and also highly educated tribe of Kennedy kinfolk).  The problem with his take on vaccines is that like a lot of celebrity misinformation spreaders,  he's good at constructing his own desired context for selected facts and thus weaving a tapestry that can look sturdy while doing the public a great disservice.









						How Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Became the Anti-vaxxer Icon of America’s Nightmares
					

The political scion has deployed a race-baiting “documentary” and disinformation to advance bogus theories and seed anti-vaccine sentiment.




					www.vanityfair.com


----------



## Deleted member 199

lizkat said:


> themselves highly educated but have chosen for sheerly political reasons to downplay covid or rail against the vaccines.




The real icing on the turd cake is that those screaming the loudest are themselves very likely to be (or known to be) vaccinated.


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> I know it's easy to bash Republicans for being late to the game with vaccines but I think we should be applauding them here, Fox News, Mitch McConnell, et al. are stepping up and encouraging vaccines and right now that's what we should all be doing.



It’s because of the Wall St. scare the other day; look at the day the market took a dive, then look at when these politicians started to change their tune. Their corporate donors called them and told them to stop with the anti-vax BS.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Pumbaa

Some numbers from my side of the pond for reference:

In Sweden 74.3% of adults have gotten at least a first jab, and 46.9% are fully vaccinated. Anyone 18+ can get the vaccine now in all regions. Currently 0.15% of fully vaccinated persons have tested positive for covid-19.

In the Stockholm region infections are up 44% compared to the previous week (784 new cases among the 2.3 million inhabitants). Mostly the delta variant. 18-29:ers largest group, many having caught the virus abroad. Gotta travel to party islands and beaches you know. ¡Una cerveza, por favor! Μια μπύρα, παρακαλώ! Ro hit en bira för fan!

Speaking of youngsters, apparently 28% of our kids (0-19 years) have antibodies. Sounds like plenty of infections not present in the official stats, but hey, what do I know?


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> It’s because of the Wall St. scare the other day; look at the day the market took a dive, then look at when these politicians started to change their tune. Their corporate donors called them and told them to stop with the anti-vax BS.



If that's what it takes I'm all for it.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Eric said:


> From my perspective, it's hard for me to justify saying "everyone needs to step up and do their part to get people vaccinated" and then attack them when they do. I have always taken this virus seriously and IMO we all should. The more people who get behind it, the better, no matter what it took for them to get there.



To be clear, what my rant is based on is the specific persons you mentioned.  These were individual(s) who while most likely vaccinated themselves, choose to promote vaccine hesitancy if not outright falsehoods, for their own ends & no concern for those who listen to them.  I for one didn’t look at as “everyone needs to step up”, because those who gave a shit about themselves AND others DID step up.  It’s those either in their feelings or thinking they were sticking ( pun intended ) to others, who we find filling hospitals.  We are having surges again of something that group so hated they LARPED in store bought military gear, to whine about not being able to go to Chili’s whenever they wanted.

I’d love more people to get behind this, but they HAVE to want to.  If listening to _ucker Carlson is enough to dissuade someone from doing that they need to do for their own good…  I just don’t believe giving anything more then the suspicious side eye like most of social media did, with Hannity’s abrupt UNEXPECTED turn.  To ME, that doesn’t rate applause, because as I said we have good reason to be suspicious why they suddenly pivoted.  Instead a blinding light powerful enough to burn thru metal should be shown, otherwise to these sorts, they will keep doing such things.  It’s why we have a Republican Party that blatantly will come right out and admit they will do nothing governance wise, because it doesn’t benefit them politically.  But the first time even one shows they remember they had a moral compass, some want to trot out the ‘patriot’ term & shower with praise.  No.  They just did something in their best interest & it happened to align with doing the right thing.

To paraphrase a saying, “even a broken clock is right 2X a day”.  It doesn’t mean you keep the clock & think it’s great.  It’s still broken.






_Just more ranting_


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> Sad and 100% avoidable now.



I used to do tech support for a family nearby and I just heard today that their housekeeper died of COVID. He was in his early 60s and had refused to get the vaccine.


----------



## User.191

Herdfan said:


> I don't believe Obama is Muslim. I believe he could be a Muslim sympathizer.



I’m going to take your post by meaning “Muslim Sympathizer“ = “supporter of Islamic Terrorism”. I’m a Muslim supporter myself. I’m also a Buddhist Supporter. I’m a Christian Supporter. I’m an athiest Supporter.

What I do NOT support is hatred or terrorism, wether it be from people of Islamic faith, or Christian.

So, to your statement:

Why? Because of his skin color? Because of his name? Because of where some of his family came from?

In politics he gave zero indication of being a Muslim Sympathizer. He was the President who gave the OK to the mission to take out Osma Bin Laden. He gave sppeches decrying terrorism in all forms for all religions.

So, please define “muslim supporter” with citations.


----------



## SuperMatt

MissNomer said:


> I’m going to take your post by meaning “Muslim Sympathizer“ = “supporter of Islamic Terrorism”. I’m a Muslim supporter myself. I’m also a Buddhist Supporter. I’m a Christian Supporter. I’m an athiest Supporter.
> 
> What I do NOT support is hatred or terrorism, wether it be from people of Islamic faith, or Christian.
> 
> So, to your statement:
> 
> Why? Because of his skin color? Because of his name? Because of where some of his family came from?
> 
> In politics he gave zero indication of being a Muslim Sympathizer. He was the President who gave the OK to the mission to take out Osma Bin Laden. He gave sppeches decrying terrorism in all forms for all religions.
> 
> So, please define “muslim supporter” with citations.



Maybe people should listen to what John McCain had to say. He could have appealed to the anti-Muslim bigotry (that clearly still exists) of GOP voters in 2008 to try and beat Obama, but he didn’t. What a contrast to Trump, who not only allowed such bigotry and racism to go unchallenged, he actually stoked the fires of it himself for personal gain.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1033515074889994241/


----------



## lizkat

theSeb said:


> I feel sad for all of the people that died before there was a vaccine. I feel angry that politicians have turned Covid into a political issue.






> “The war ingested everything whole, bent everything to its service: religion and politics, history and geography, fact and mythology.”
> 
> --Samanth Subramanian,  in _This Divided Island: Life, Death and the Sri Lankan Wa_r​



​​Our polarized politics in the USA have been exacerbated so much over the past few years that we're essentially on a pseudo-wartime footing with each other across the partisan divide.   Nothing is sacred now, apparently, not even matters of public health, the same as in a shooting war.


----------



## Thomas Veil

Back on the subject of Covid...

I was somewhat floored by developments over the last few days, which included both Sean Hannity and Mitch McConnell plugging the vaccines.









						Suddenly, Conservatives Care About Vaccines
					

A number of leaders on the right suddenly urged their audiences to get vaccinated in the past day. Why now?




					www.theatlantic.com
				




I do have some thoughts about this turn of events.



> “Just like we’ve been saying, please take COVID seriously. Enough people have died. We don’t need any more deaths. Research like crazy. Talk to your doctor,” Fox News’s Sean Hannity said last night.



Well, in the first place, Sean, how long have you been saying this? From the beginning, like us? Or just now that we're on the fourth wave and it looks like most of the people who are going to catch it and possibly die are Republicans?

And don't tell your audience to "research like crazy". They'll just run to Facebook, where the "research" is on a par with alchemy.



> Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell...warned again today, “These shots need to get in everybody’s arm as rapidly as possible or we are going to be back in a situation in the fall, that we don’t yearn for, that we were in last year.”



Which makes me think the other reason these guys have all of a sudden gotten on the bandwagon is that they saw how badly businesses were affected the bulk of last year and the beginning of this. They don't want to see _that_ happening again. So please...think about Wall Street. Get the shot.

Still, even though previously dense and fact-resistant people like Steve Doocy and Steve Scalise are finally getting the shot...how many people will listen? The right has cultivated a rich, full garden of ignorance. They're gonna need some mighty big machetes to counter that.


----------



## SuperMatt

Why are we still waiting on full FDA approval?









						Let's get more people vaccinated
					

It all starts with actually approving the vaccine....




					www.slowboring.com


----------



## Runs For Fun

SuperMatt said:


> Why are we still waiting on full FDA approval?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's get more people vaccinated
> 
> 
> It all starts with actually approving the vaccine....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.slowboring.com



It should be getting approval in the next month or two. There’s a deadline for January but it will almost certainly happen much sooner.

In other news, I overheard something incredibly stupid. Someone said that the rising case numbers are just a way to convince more people to get vaccinate. Whaaaaa? I don’t even know where to start with that.


----------



## Herdfan

I think I said it back when the vaccines became available, but there needed to be a carrot, such as being able to do away with masks or opening up businesses, to give people a reason to get it.

Not so much on an individual basis, but on perhaps a state or even county basis.  Our governor tried to peg removing the mask mandate to 70% of the population being vaccinated.  Then the CDC cut his legs out from under him, but at least he tried.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> I think I said it back when the vaccines became available, but there needed to be a carrot, such as being able to do away with masks or opening up businesses, to give people a reason to get it.
> 
> Not so much on an individual basis, but on perhaps a state or even county basis.  Our governor tried to peg removing the mask mandate to 70% of the population being vaccinated.  Then the CDC cut his legs out from under him, but at least he tried.



What did the CDC do? I‘m not too familiar with WV politics. I looked up the stats, and West Virginia is only 38% fully vaccinated, so it doesn’t seem like they were very close to hitting the 70% mark.









						West Virginia Coronavirus Vaccination Progress
					

How is West Virginia progressing in its mission to vaccinate the population? See how many people are fully vaccinated state-wide and parse the numbers by demographics.




					usafacts.org


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> What did the CDC do? I‘m not too familiar with WV politics. I looked up the stats, and West Virginia is only 38% fully vaccinated, so it doesn’t seem like they were very close to hitting the 70% mark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> West Virginia Coronavirus Vaccination Progress
> 
> 
> How is West Virginia progressing in its mission to vaccinate the population? See how many people are fully vaccinated state-wide and parse the numbers by demographics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usafacts.org




When the CDC came out with the mask guidance that said vaccinated individuals don't need to wear one.  That opened the flood gates and he gave in.

Also, those numbers don't match these totals:









						Gov. Justice confident the state will hit vaccination goals
					

While giving an update on the COVID-19 pandemic and West Virginia’s response, Gov. Jim Justice announced Monday that he ‘feels absolutely certain’ that 65 percent of those eligible to receive the COVID-19 vaccine will have at least one shot by June 20th.




					www.wsaz.com
				




And it seems it was 65%.  I typed that at first and thought, no it was 70%.  Always go with the first answer.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> When the CDC came out with the mask guidance that said vaccinated individuals don't need to wear one.  That opened the flood gates and he gave in.
> 
> Also, those numbers don't match these totals:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gov. Justice confident the state will hit vaccination goals
> 
> 
> While giving an update on the COVID-19 pandemic and West Virginia’s response, Gov. Jim Justice announced Monday that he ‘feels absolutely certain’ that 65 percent of those eligible to receive the COVID-19 vaccine will have at least one shot by June 20th.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsaz.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it seems it was 65%.  I typed that at first and thought, no it was 70%.  Always go with the first answer.



Those numbers seem to be people 12 and up, the other numbers were total population. That seems to be the source of the apparent discrepancy. The numbers you posted are a better measure since they measure the people currently eligible to received the vaccine.

The CDC didn’t intentionally ”cut his legs out from under him”. They simply passed along factual information: vaccinated people don‘t need masks to be safe. Human nature being what it is, people who did NOT get the shot were going to look around at unmasked people and certainly wouldn’t go by the honor system and wear a mask. And we didn’t want to go for the vaccine passport thing like France is, so… What was the other option? The CDC lying and telling people they still needed masks? The Governor made a miscalculation, but I agree - it was an admirable attempt, and he didn’t stop there. He is offering money to people to get the vaccine and still talking about it regularly.

He is still working to try and get more people vaccinated, and I hope he is successful in that endeavor.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> When the CDC came out with the mask guidance that said vaccinated individuals don't need to wear one.  That opened the flood gates and he gave in.



Yep, it's called science. When the evidence presents itself to show a different result, scientists then adapt, change and incorporate. 

Imagine how many lives could've been saved from religious ignorance if a Christian had a peer reviewed study showing that snakes could not talk or empirical data that a man couldn't part the sea.


----------



## SuperMatt

@Eric - thanks for the COVID notice at the top of the site. I didn’t even notice it until this evening - unobtrusive, but I’m glad to see it. Meanwhile, Arn is happy to allow his site to be a breeding ground for false information that leads to deaths. He’s booted most of the people who actually push back against the lies. Just look at this thread…









						Apple Requiring Retail Employees in Some Regions to Wear Masks, Other Employees Encouraged to Do So
					

Amid spiking cases in the ongoing health crisis, Apple has started urging its employees to wear masks in retail store locations once again, and is mandating it in some areas, according to Bloomberg's Mark Gurman.    Apple stopped requiring fully vaccinated customers and employees to wear masks...




					forums.macrumors.com
				




What a poop show. Shutting down PRSI and banning the complainers really helped a lot, huh Arn? Thank you for banning me. I don’t want to be associated with the Apple-centric version of Parler.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1418036229157818370/

I think one of the simplest reasons for the turn about, is that it's more specifically focusing on the audience of Faux News & republican supporters.

It becomes untenable to promote vaccine hesitancy when your own audience is dying from that hesitancy.

We've seen this before in the war oriented approaches on crack / cocaine and the more concerned merciful approach with opioids.

It still blows my mind that the former president who did get vaccinated secretly, to the television network that helps hesitancy and/or misinformation, also had a figure once pitch naming the vaccine itself after that former president.  Wha?!


----------



## Runs For Fun

Eric said:


> Sad and 100% avoidable now.



And then you have this idiot








						COVID patient in Louisiana says he'd opt for hospitalization again over vaccine
					

The hospital's chief medical officer said if people don't get vaccinated, "we are going to accept death."




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1418060344044396545/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1418058351309725697/


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1418060344044396545/
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1418058351309725697/



CDC: Vaccinated people don’t need masks
Un-vaccinated people: Haha you can’t tell if I am vaccinated or not!
Coronavirus: I can.
Un-vaccinated people:


----------



## SuperMatt

Runs For Fun said:


> And then you have this idiot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID patient in Louisiana says he'd opt for hospitalization again over vaccine
> 
> 
> The hospital's chief medical officer said if people don't get vaccinated, "we are going to accept death."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com



I actually kind of feel bad for that guy... as a friend of mine said concerning an unvaccinated person we know: “he’s a victim of disinformation.”


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> CDC: Vaccinated people don’t need masks
> Un-vaccinated people: Haha you can’t tell if I am vaccinated or not!
> Coronavirus: I can.
> Un-vaccinated people:





Runs For Fun said:


> And then you have this idiot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID patient in Louisiana says he'd opt for hospitalization again over vaccine
> 
> 
> The hospital's chief medical officer said if people don't get vaccinated, "we are going to accept death."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com



The big question is whether they said it before or after they got the "This is not a bill" letter of their "100K" hospital stay. 

Honestly, I'd love to go full libertarian on some of these folks (i.e. pay outta pocket if you don't respect others')


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1418191435224989701/

My favorite part, "Stop telling us to stay at home if we're afraid".

Which is a nice counter if one's excuse for NOT getting the vaccine is they are afraid of it being unproven or untested.

YOU stay home, the rest of us are going to go catch a movie.  Peace.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Runs For Fun said:


> And then you have this idiot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID patient in Louisiana says he'd opt for hospitalization again over vaccine
> 
> 
> The hospital's chief medical officer said if people don't get vaccinated, "we are going to accept death."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com



What I thought of when I watched that video


----------



## Herdfan

The NFL looks to be serious about vaccinations.  They have some pretty stiff penalties if unvaccinated players cause a problem.









						NFL says COVID outbreaks could lead to forfeits
					

The NFL informed teams that they face possible forfeits of games -- and the loss of game checks for players -- if a COVID-19 outbreak among unvaccinated players causes an unresolvable disruption in the regular-season schedule.




					www.espn.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> The NFL looks to be serious about vaccinations.  They have some pretty stiff penalties if unvaccinated players cause a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NFL says COVID outbreaks could lead to forfeits
> 
> 
> The NFL informed teams that they face possible forfeits of games -- and the loss of game checks for players -- if a COVID-19 outbreak among unvaccinated players causes an unresolvable disruption in the regular-season schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.espn.com



As a Bills fan, I am deeply disappointed in one particular team member:






						Is Cole Beasley trying to get cut? - ProFootballTalk
					

Shortly after Bills receiver Cole Beasley‘s initial Twitter tirade about the COVID vaccine, Beasley quickly decided to say nothing further.“I don’t want [to] be any more of a distraction to my team so that’s where I’m leaving it,” Beasley said last month.In recent days, Beasley has returned to...




					profootballtalk.nbcsports.com
				




So much for being a team player. Well, if he gets cut, good luck getting a job elsewhere as a 32-year old receiver who, if on a team, could lead to his team literally forfeiting a game.

WTF is wrong with people’s brains? You will give up your career to avoid getting a shot?

It’s a shame because he was a very productive member of the team and it’s a delight to watch him play.


----------



## SuperMatt

I saw this story linked by daring fireball…









						Texas has seen nearly 9,000 COVID-19 deaths since February. All but 43 were unvaccinated people.
					

Preliminary data shows 99.5% of COVID-related deaths in Texas were among unvaccinated people, according to the Department of State Health Services.




					www.texastribune.org
				




99.5% of people dying from COVID were unvaccinated. The politicians might lie, but the facts do not.


----------



## Thomas Veil

This...this is pathetically sad. And totally avoidable.



> ‘It’s too late’: US doctor says dying patients begging for Covid vaccine​...“I’m admitting young, healthy people to the hospital with very serious Covid infections,” wrote (Dr. Brytney) Cobia in a Facebook post on Sunday.
> 
> *“One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,”* she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.



My bold.









						‘It’s too late’: US doctor says dying patients begging for Covid vaccine
					

At least 99% of those in US who died of Covid in the last six months had not been vaccinated, says CDC director Dr Rochelle Walensky




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## User.45

Thomas Veil said:


> This...this is pathetically sad. And totally avoidable.
> 
> 
> My bold.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘It’s too late’: US doctor says dying patients begging for Covid vaccine
> 
> 
> At least 99% of those in US who died of Covid in the last six months had not been vaccinated, says CDC director Dr Rochelle Walensky
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


----------



## Thomas Veil

Hey, live free or and die.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> As a Bills fan, I am deeply disappointed in one particular team member:




THAT"s what disappoints you as a Bill's fan??????      

Sorry, couldn't resist.  I am a long-suffering Dolphins fan so..............


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> He is still working to try and get more people vaccinated, and I hope he is successful in that endeavor.




Ohio started the whole vaccination lottery and WV and KY followed.  FYI, Babydog is Big Jim's bulldog.









						Another West Virginian wins new truck through Do it for Babydog Vaccination Sweepstakes
					

Gov. Jim Justice presented a brand-new custom-outfitted truck to an additional winner Wednesday as part of the fifth drawing in the “Do it for Babydog: Save a life, Change your life” Vaccination Sweepstakes.




					www.wsaz.com


----------



## Runs For Fun

Sad


----------



## Eric

It's all pretty sad...






Same guy








						Hillsong member dies of Covid after 'I got 99 problems but vax ain't one' post
					

A VOCAL Covid vaccine denier who quipped, “I got 99 problems but a vax ain’t one” has died from the virus after fighting it for a month. Stephen Harmon lost his battle on July 21 – after post…




					www.the-sun.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> It's all pretty sad...
> 
> 
> 
> Same guy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hillsong member dies of Covid after 'I got 99 problems but vax ain't one' post
> 
> 
> A VOCAL Covid vaccine denier who quipped, “I got 99 problems but a vax ain’t one” has died from the virus after fighting it for a month. Stephen Harmon lost his battle on July 21 – after post…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.the-sun.com



I don’t believe God wants people to die of COVID. Sadly a lot of churches are breeding grounds for Anti-vax nonsense.


----------



## lizkat

SUNY will use $24M (about 5%) of its stimulus funding to expand mental health services.  Added to existing budgeting, this will mean that about $59M in total will fund mental health and wellness services across the 64-campus system.  It's meant to cover counseling, telemedicine and peer-to-peer connections as well as safe spaces for LGBTQ students.









						SUNY to use $24M in stimulus funding to boost mental health services
					

The $24 million comes from SUNY's $481 million in American Rescue Plan funding and will increase telemedicine and peer-to-peer counseling.



					www.democratandchronicle.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Some people reluctant to get the vaccine have decided to take the plunge. 

The article below title doesn’t reflect the actual story for some reason…



> On a single day this past week, more than half a million peopleacross the United States trickled into high school gymnasiums, pharmacies and buses converted into mobile clinics. Then they pushed up their sleeves and got their Covid vaccines.
> 
> These are the Americans who are being vaccinated at this moment in the pandemic: the reluctant, the anxious, the procrastinating.
> 
> “‘You’re going to die — get the Covid vaccine,’” Grace Carper, 15, recently told her mother, Nikki White, of Urbandale, Iowa, as they debated when they would get their shots. Ms. White, 38, woke up on Thursday and said she would do it. “If you want to go get your vaccine, get up,” Ms. White told her daughter, who agreed eagerly, and they went together to a Hy-Vee supermarket.












						A conservative Tennessee radio host, hospitalized with Covid, shifts his message to urge vaccinations.
					

Phil Valentine is currently one of hundreds of Covid patients in Tennessee, which has seen a 77 percent increase in hospitalizations over the past two weeks.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Clix Pix

SuperMatt said:


> I don’t believe God wants people to die of COVID. Sadly a lot of churches are breeding grounds for Anti-vax nonsense.



God didn't have much to do with this Harmon guy's death -- his own arrogance and stupidity killed him.


----------



## Thomas Veil

And now Hannity is backtracking on the vaccine.









						Sean Hannity furiously backtracks and denies he pushed his followers to get vaccinated
					

Fox News personality Sean Hannity made news on Monday after he urged viewers to take COVID-19 seriously only minutes after Tucker Carlson pushed anti-vax information.  	"Just like we've been saying, please take COVID seriously. I can't say it enough, enough people have died, we don't need any...




					www.rawstory.com
				






> "For some reason, me saying take COVID seriously has finally caught up with the mob and the -- and the media. Now, I think they've got ulterior motives… -* you know, there's been this attempt to blame conservatives for the vaccine hesitancy,"*




That’s so unfair to conservatives. You know?


----------



## JayMysteri0

So Kay Ivey was in the news for a day, for her "no nonsense" approach to blaming the unvaccinated for Alabama's issues with Covid.

Only there's a bit of an issue of Ivey specifically being the one to blame the unvaccinated, as if her party hasn't had a hand in making this an issue.





_You can stop @ 5 minutes to get the relevant part_

I think the more likely reasoning for Ivey's new outlook & potentially other politicians is this...


----------



## JayMysteri0

You may have heard about how there's an Olympics going on right now.

For some people...



> Have you heard the one about the doctor who didn’t get vaxxed and ruined his country’s Olympics?
> 
> 
> Czech team med tests positive for Covid upon arrival in Tokyo, and six athletes follow in his wake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> deadspin.com





> The Olympics are always full of surprises, and right at the beginning of the Tokyo Games, there’s already a stunner: the first vaccine-shunning idiot to ruin things for a bunch of other people isn’t an American.
> 
> Yes, other countries have morons, too! Proving that is Czech doctor Vlastimil Voracek, who tested negative for COVID-19 before leaving Prague for Japan, but positive upon arrival. Now there are six members of the Czech delegation who have tested positive, including beach volleyball player Markéta Sluková-Nausch, who, along with partner Barbora Hermannova, had to default their opening match, ending their Olympic dream before it could even begin.
> 
> And the very person responsible for the Czech athletes’ health, Voracek, is to blame. The doctor was eligible for a vaccine, but his statement that, “The organizers stipulated the rules … vaccination was voluntary,” answers the question of whether he got his shots just as clearly as Cowboys quarterback Dak Prescott’s bogus claim that being questioned on his vaccine status was somehow a HIPAA violation.
> 
> We’ve been over this for more than a year: _all that HIPAA means_ is that healthcare providers can’t go around blabbing about your medical information, not that your COVID status cannot be discussed with the media. It’s just a case of Prescott not wanting to say out loud that he hasn’t been vaccinated, because somewhere deep down, he knows that he’s wrong, and you don’t see anyone who’s gotten the vaccine going on and on about how it’s nobody’s business whether they’ve been vaxxed.




I still find myself mystified that some can't grasp that things like masks & vaccines are also about doing for others, not just yourself.  Now this doctor worried about himself, cost members of his team their possible olympic dreams.


----------



## B S Magnet

For loud anti-vaxxers getting the delta variant of the rona, falling severely ill, and begging nurses for the vaccine whilst in ICU, I’ll be over here with Ivan Drago.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.45

Thomas Veil said:


> And now Hannity is backtracking on the vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sean Hannity furiously backtracks and denies he pushed his followers to get vaccinated
> 
> 
> Fox News personality Sean Hannity made news on Monday after he urged viewers to take COVID-19 seriously only minutes after Tucker Carlson pushed anti-vax information.  	"Just like we've been saying, please take COVID seriously. I can't say it enough, enough people have died, we don't need any...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rawstory.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That’s so unfair to conservatives. You know?



In reality it's a crisis of credibility and conservatives aren't handling it well:

Democrat districts represent 91% of the top 100 vaccinated districts
Republican districts represent 92% of the bottom 100 vaccinated districts

Even if I include only states with GOP electoral votes, 50% of top 50 vaccinated districts are represented by Democrats, and 98% of the bottom 50 vaccinated districts are represented by Republicans.

It's just brutal





__





						COVID-19 Vaccine Rollout across US Congressional Districts
					






					geographicinsights.iq.harvard.edu
				




Credibility crisis in a Tweet:


----------



## JayMysteri0

Also


----------



## Alli

JayMysteri0 said:


> So Kay Ivey was in the news for a day, for her "no nonsense" approach to blaming the unvaccinated for Alabama's issues with Covid.



Memaw is conflicted. She wants to do the right thing, but she also wants to be liked by the rest of the right.


----------



## Thomas Veil

JayMysteri0 said:


> So Kay Ivey was in the news for a day, for her "no nonsense" approach to blaming the unvaccinated for Alabama's issues with Covid.
> 
> Only there's a bit of an issue of Ivey specifically being the one to blame the unvaccinated, as if her party hasn't had a hand in making this an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _You can stop @ 5 minutes to get the relevant part_
> 
> I think the more likely reasoning for Ivey's new outlook & potentially other politicians is this...




I saw that and I have the feeling she’s really going to pay for that.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Alli said:


> Memaw is conflicted. She wants to do the right thing, but she also wants to be liked by the rest of the right.





Thomas Veil said:


> I saw that and I have the feeling she’s really going to pay for that.




I think that's correct.   She has a base to appeal to, and like some other governors & a former president thought we all could just coast thru this.  Unfortunately some place had to be the worst case scenario, and it's currently her state.  So like the Youtuber pointed out, it's time to blame the very people that were fed constant partisan points on mask, and vaccine hesitancy.  All the while seeking to distance herself & others from their part in all of this.

If she's so mad, why didn't she hammer home the point she's been ( I'm assuming ) vaccinated earlier?

It should have been a focus much earlier, not when so many are entrenched in a line of thinking.


----------



## Thomas Veil

I’m actually pretty concerned right now. My daughter’s family is going on a long ago booked vacation to Florida…with an overnight stay in Alabama.

If you think I haven’t been forwarding articles and drilling mask-wearing into her…


----------



## Alli

Thomas Veil said:


> I’m actually pretty concerned right now. My daughter’s family is going on a long ago booked vacation to Florida…with an overnight stay in Alabama.
> 
> If you think I haven’t been forwarding articles and drilling mask-wearing into her…



Somewhat off topic, but where are they stopping in AL? Some areas are better/worse than others. I take it they’re heading to Orlando in FL?


----------



## Thomas Veil

No idea in AL, but their ultimate destination is Florida’s panhandle.

Edit: she tells me Decatur.


----------



## Alli

Thomas Veil said:


> No idea in AL, but their ultimate destination is Florida’s panhandle.



That’s all my neck of the woods. I’m actually flying into Pensacola tomorrow.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Hypocrites 

They really have a problem with one and not the other from
      TikTokCringe


----------



## Thomas Veil

Absolute insanity. Pure, hardcore insanity. They are still holding superspreader events…with Trump as the headliner no less. 









						'Dangerous and stupid': ER physician on packed, maskless Trump event | CNN
					

Maskless supporters packed a Phoenix theater for a chance to see former President Donald Trump as Covid-19 cases in the area have more than doubled due to the contagious Delta variant. CNN's Kyung Lah reports.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1420050609538015237/


----------



## SuperMatt

I saw a piece in The NY Times (one of two that caught my ire) from Bret Stephens about COVID:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1420201405512437766/


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I saw a piece in The NY Times (one of two that caught my ire) from Bret Stephens about COVID:
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1420201405512437766/



Honestly, I don't read anything from Bret Stephens. I gave him 3 or 4 shots but he came out ALWAYS underwhelming in all of those instances. So underwhelming/bad that I actually looked him up never to ever waste time on what he writes. He does not deserve my time.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Yeah...

I'm beginning to realize that those who bitched the loudest when we were asked to wear masks until a vaccine comes along, will be doing their part to take us back to those days.



> Arkansas Reports 33 New Covid-19 Patients Placed on Ventilators in Single Day
> 
> 
> The state has seen a terrifying covid-19 surge of the delta variant while just 36% of residents are fully vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gizmodo.com





> Arkansas hospitals placed 33 new covid-19 patients on ventilators Tuesday, according to the state’s department of health, bringing the total to 205 patients struggling for life on the machines. Sadly, that’s the highest number of patients on ventilators since January, according to the _Arkansas Democrat Gazette_, and it’s due largely to the state’s desperately low vaccination rates.
> 
> The number of covid-19 patients currently hospitalized in Arkansas is 1,025, another high that hasn’t been seen since January of this year. The state recorded 2,052 new cases on Tuesday, with 10 new deaths from the disease.
> 
> Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson, a Republican, tweeted about the depressing milestones on Tuesday, urging residents to get vaccinated.
> 
> “Today our hospitalizations crossed the 1,000 mark. I will meet with my COVID Task Force tomorrow morning to discuss ways to increase hospital capacity. Vaccines are the best antidote for our increasing numbers; the best antidote for fear is counsel from a trustworthy advisor,” Hutchinson tweeted.




Why the realization?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1419715086982303748/

FFS

It makes you realize why some are so desperate to be blame China or create elaborate conspiracies.  The group first to yell "personal responsibility" is the last to take it themselves.


----------



## Herdfan

JayMysteri0 said:


> Yeah...
> 
> I'm beginning to realize that those who bitched the loudest when we were asked to wear masks until a vaccine comes along, will be doing their part to take us back to those days.




Well, I am here. 

All I will say is if there is a problem getting people to get the vaccine, bring back mask mandates is not going to help.  It will probably hurt.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Well, I am here.
> 
> All I will say is if there is a problem getting people to get the vaccine, bring back mask mandates is not going to help.  It will probably hurt.



They all say that until they're on a ventilator and you see them on the news saying "I wish I would've listened". The takeaway is for some absolutely nothing short of knocking on deaths door will convince them otherwise. Fine if they want to eat their own but when it infects others it's flat out irresponsible.


----------



## Deleted member 199

Eric said:


> They all say that until they're on a ventilator and you see them on the news saying "I wish I would've listened". The takeaway is for some absolutely nothing short of knocking on deaths door will convince them otherwise. Fine if they want to eat their own but when it infects others it's flat out irresponsible.



Don’t assume they all even get to that point of realisation.

my wife’s uncle never wore a helmet, got hit off his motor bike, ended up in a coma for.. 8 days I think.

“recovered”… back on the bike, no helmet.
the progression for some people about any kind of negative consequences to their actions seems to be:


Zero thoughts about it
“It won’t happen to me”
It happens
Change nothing
It can’t happen again
Go to step 3.


----------



## SuperMatt

Iowa’s governor is blaming the resurgence of COVID-19 on immigrants crossing the border….









						Iowa Gov. Kim Reynolds blames unvaccinated migrants for recent Covid spike
					

"Part of the problem is the southern border is open and we’ve got 88 countries that are coming across the border and they don’t have vaccines," she told reporters Tuesday.




					www.nbcnews.com
				




Is there a high speed rail taking them straight from Texas to Iowa as soon as they cross?


----------



## JayMysteri0

> CDC: Color-coded map shows where Americans need to wear masks again, and where you can go maskless, outside of schools
> 
> 
> Vaccinated people can still spread the Delta variant, which is one of the biggest reasons masks are being recommended indoors again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1420475298051678212/


----------



## Thomas Veil

Shaking my head. 



> The Covid-19 vaccine has become so polarizing that some people in Missouri are getting inoculated in secret for fear of backlash from their friends and family who oppose vaccination, a doctor told CNN Wednesday.





> "They did their own research on it, and they talked to people and made the decisions themselves," Frase told CNN's Anderson Cooper. "But even though they were able to make that decision themselves, they didn't want to have to deal with the peer pressure or the outbursts from other people about them ... 'giving in to everything.'"





> In a hospital produced video, Frase said one pharmacist at her hospital told her "they've had several people come in to get vaccinated who have tried to sort of disguise their appearance and even went so far as to say, 'please, please, please don't let anybody know that I got this vaccine.'"




This is what it’s come to. We have people ashamed of doing the right thing, the lifesaving thing. 

Unbelievable. 









						Some people in Missouri are getting vaccinated in secret to avoid backlash from loved ones, doctor says | CNN
					

The Covid-19 vaccine has become so polarizing that some people in Missouri are getting inoculated in secret for fear of backlash from their friends and family who oppose vaccination, a doctor told CNN on Wednesday.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Holy cow, look at West Virginia on this chart projecting when each state will get to 70% vaccination rate... you might need to scroll down.


----------



## Thomas Veil

JayMysteri0 said:


> I'm beginning to realize that those who bitched the loudest when we were asked to wear masks until a vaccine comes along, will be doing their part to take us back to those days.



Absolutely this!

These people who are *so* against masks are pushing us back into a situation of requiring masks.

These people who are *so* against the vaccine are keeping the disease going, increasing the need for vaccines, including boosters.

These people who are *so* against shutdowns are going to force us into _new_ shutdowns, or at least reinstating capacity limits.

These people who are *so* against socialism are doing everything they can to make sure restaurants, event venues and many other businesses remain dependent on the government dole to keep themselves going.

These people who are *so* against welfare, food stamps and lengthy unemployment benefits are disrupting the whole employment system, making it harder to get people to go back to work. 

I could go on with the irony, but it just makes me even angrier.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Thomas Veil said:


> Absolutely this!
> 
> These people who are *so* against masks are pushing us back into a situation of requiring masks.
> 
> These people who are *so* against the vaccine are keeping the disease going, increasing the need for vaccines, including boosters.
> 
> These people who are *so* against shutdowns are going to force us into _new_ shutdowns, or at least reinstating capacity limits.
> 
> These people who are *so* against socialism are doing everything they can to make sure restaurants, event venues and many other businesses remain dependent on the government dole to keep themselves going.
> 
> These people who are *so* against welfare, food stamps and lengthy unemployment benefits are disrupting the whole employment system, making it harder to get people to go back to work.
> 
> I could go on with the irony, but it just makes me even angrier.



The mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance with these people is unbelievable.


----------



## SuperMatt

If we mandated vaccines, we wouldn’t be going back to masks now. We can mandate masks, but not vaccines? Oh wait, we can mandate them... companies and government agencies are starting to. I guess they thought that Americans would get the vaccine as soon as it was available. They *vastly* underestimated the stupidity of the American people.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Holy cow, look at West Virginia on this chart projecting when each state will get to 70% vaccination rate... you might need to scroll down.
> 
> View attachment 7538




What in the mulletville hell?  No way that is accurate. 

Our Governor today introduced a booster trial:









						Gov. Justice announces vaccine booster trial
					

The governor says there are 100 delta variant cases of COVID-19 in the state.




					www.wsaz.com
				






Thomas Veil said:


> Absolutely this!
> 
> These people who are *so* against masks are pushing us back into a situation of requiring masks.




Ummm  Not all.  I got the vaccine because it was the path to no mask.  I think everyone here pretty much knows how much I hate them, but it was one thing to wear one to protect everyone else when there was no vaccine.  But I will be damned if I am going to go back to wearing one because some people don't want to get the vaccine.  Nope.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> What in the mulletville hell?  No way that is accurate.
> 
> Our Governor today introduced a booster trial:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gov. Justice announces vaccine booster trial
> 
> 
> The governor says there are 100 delta variant cases of COVID-19 in the state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsaz.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm  Not all.  I got the vaccine because it was the path to no mask.  I think everyone here pretty much knows how much I hate them, but it was one thing to wear one to protect everyone else when there was no vaccine.  But I will be damned if I am going to go back to wearing one because some people don't want to get the vaccine.  Nope.



I get this frustration, especially have being so careful for the entire year and then getting a taste of freedom after being fully vaccinated. At this point I'm still doing it myself in public but not blaming you if you don't, you've done your part here. 

However, we're starting to see a wave of local counties and businesses taking it upon themselves to impose mandates. In those cases we'll have no choice and I get that they don't want the liability. In the end the unvaccinated are ruining it for everyone else.


----------



## Alli

SuperMatt said:


> Holy cow, look at West Virginia on this chart projecting when each state will get to 70% vaccination rate... you might need to scroll down.



And that’s not even to 70%. For a minute I was pleased that AL was in the pack, but then I realized that only gets us to 50% by December of NEXT YEAR.


Herdfan said:


> What in the mulletville hell? No way that is accurate.
> 
> Our Governor today introduced a booster trial:



The booster will only be for those who had the vaccine. It doesn’t do much good if there are still 50% ineligible for the booster because they never had the original vaccine.


----------



## JayMysteri0

FFS

Faux News determined to shed Faux for Fux News with their shit

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1420887612210835458/

Leading source for some helping us ALL backslide


----------



## Russell Jackson

I have J&J vaccine.


----------



## JayMysteri0

WTF?!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1421207484426031118/


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> WTF?!
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1421207484426031118/



If the goal is to show America is the the face of entitlement then well done.


----------



## Thomas Veil

JayMysteri0 said:


> WTF?!
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1421207484426031118/



Yeah, read his excuse, which was basically it’s all about him and _his_ health.


----------



## Edd

JayMysteri0 said:


> WTF?!
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1421207484426031118/



Tucker‘s people must be frantically trying to land an interview.


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> WTF?!
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1421207484426031118/


----------



## Clix Pix

He never should have been allowed to participate in the Olympics in the first place......  ALL athletes going to Tokyo should have been vaccinated and if they were not -- well, too bad, too sad.


----------



## Thomas Veil

And now for the lighter side…
​


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1421204601294970884/


----------



## lizkat

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1421204601294970884/




So no surprise that Newsmax viewers already ranked pretty high among the unvaccinated  (bolding below is mine)



> Vaccine resistance was greater among Republicans than Democrats, according to an April study by the Public Religion Research Institute. *Among Republicans who watch Fox News, 45 percent said they were hesitant or unwilling to get a Covid-19 shot, compared with 68 percent of viewers who watch the niche right-wing news channels Newsmax or One America News Network.*




source:   NYT on July 11,  citing research done in April by Public Religion Research Institute.


btw PRRI is a good source for data on trends at the nexus of religion, culture, public policy...


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> What in the mulletville hell?  No way that is accurate.
> 
> Our Governor today introduced a booster trial:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gov. Justice announces vaccine booster trial
> 
> 
> The governor says there are 100 delta variant cases of COVID-19 in the state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsaz.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm  Not all.  I got the vaccine because it was the path to no mask.  I think everyone here pretty much knows how much I hate them, but it was one thing to wear one to protect everyone else when there was no vaccine.  But I will be damned if I am going to go back to wearing one because some people don't want to get the vaccine.  Nope.



Not everyone who hasn't been vaccinated has a choice — vaccines probably won't be approved for children under 12 until the end of this year. Although the risk is considerably less than it is for adults, that's partially negated by higher transmission. Masks also reduces transmission from vaccinated folks who have asymptomatic infection.


----------



## lizkat

SuperMatt said:


> If we mandated vaccines, we wouldn’t be going back to masks now. We can mandate masks, but not vaccines? Oh wait, we can mandate them... companies and government agencies are starting to. I guess they thought that Americans would get the vaccine as soon as it was available. They *vastly* underestimated the stupidity of the American people.




Perhaps not so much stupidity, but self-centric application of the most optimistic view of "American exceptionalism".

The problem with being exceptionally optimistic about not getting covid seems not so much ignorance of a constantly moving train of related data, but rather that one may have decided (early on, and "once and for al, l") that those facts and stats are irrelevant to one's own personal situation.

OK, "irrelevant"  -- but when? Maybe someone decided "hey, I'm good" way back in February of 2020.   Now we're in July of 2021 and it's the delta variant making its rounds,  amid a population that's partly vaccinated, partly not vaccinated, partly unaware that vaccination itself is not 100% effective against mere infection, yet many of us still very likely figuring "hey I'm good" no matter where we fall along that spectrum.

Fox News finally coming around to deciding they were at some not fully known risk to their profit margins,  for continuing to discount covid and vaccination issues,  was a step in the right direction.

But if Biden's government has an active faith-based outreach group (which they likely do),  I'd expect right about now they'd be working with evangelical leaders trying to get the latter to exercise their persuasive abilities in favor of their parishioners and other followers getting vaccinated.

Those high profile "leaders" who used to pray over Trump in photo ops all the while can't be ignorant of the fact that religious assemblies are fat targets for superspreader covid events.  The way to keep the church doors open during a spike due to any covid variant (and "delta" won't be the last one to cause a flare-up)  is to get more people vaccinated AND wearing masks.  And that's also probably a way to help some meanwhile "stuck" Trump fans move away from a strictly politicized view of this illness and the various means we have of minimizing its impact.

Covid's not going away.  We all have to learn how to help keep its variants at bay while research continues on better ways to interfere with its life cycle.  If we can just move off that blasted dime of "I'm not giving up my freedom" as soon as anyone even mentions the advantages of vaccines and masking....    If conservative media outlets and conservative religious organizations joined in favoring covid vaccination and masking where appropriate, we'd probably make more headway against the rise of another successful variant of this coronavirus.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Today on social media it's a 'stats day', as reports on Florida are making the rounds.



> Florida coronavirus cases jump 50 percent in one week
> 
> 
> The number of coronavirus cases in Florida has jumped 50 percent over the past week, officials said Friday, as the state that already makes up a large chunk of the nation’s total cases s…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com





> The Covid-19 Outbreak Has a New Epicenter in the U.S.
> 
> 
> Florida reported 21,683 new cases on Friday, breaking a daily record for the entire pandemic, according to data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com





> COVID-19 Surges Among Unvaccinated in Florida, Contrary to Baseless Claims - FactCheck.org
> 
> 
> Florida health officials have reported a 60% rise in COVID-19 cases, and hospitals are reporting that 95% of COVID-19 patients are not fully vaccinated. But a Facebook post makes the baseless claims that Florida's numbers are not going up, and that all COVID-19 patients recently admitted to a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.factcheck.org




https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1421564237713920002/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1421567333454290946/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1421568781210558468/


----------



## Thomas Veil

*Finally* we’re seeing the light bulb going on over some of these people’s heads.

The vaccine-hesitant (as opposed to the dedicated anti-vaxxers) are starting—starting, mind you—to get immunized. 



> They were unmoved by the urgings of President Joe Biden to get vaccinated. They've spurned calls from the nation's leading doctors, as well as from sports heroes and movie stars. But one thing is finally grabbing the attention of millions of unvaccinated Americans - the invasion of the hyper-contagious delta variant of the coronavirus.






> "My friend works at the hospital, and she told me there's 18-year-olds on ventilators. That scared me," said Tyler Sprenkle, a recent high school graduate in Goodman, Mo., who got a shot this month.





> In nearby Bella Vista, Ark., 25-year-old Chelsah Skaggs said she had been avoiding the shots, citing false reports that they might cause infertility.
> 
> But as delta hit her area, she did her own research and became convinced she should get vaccinated. "Skepticism is a good thing," she said. "But to be ignorant is a different issue. My only regret is not doing it sooner."





> Half a million shots were given just on Friday, the highest daily tally since July 1, deputy White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre said at a briefing Friday. This was also the third week that states with the highest numbers of coronavirus cases also had the highest vaccination numbers, she said.




It’s still dumbfounding that these people literally waited until they saw people dying all around them to get the shot.

This person, on the other hand, has a better excuse: she’s twelve.



> Twelve-year-old Shanuan Alcantar also was unsure she wanted to get the vaccine, largely because of the baseless reports she saw online that it would make her arm magnetic.





> "I was really scared seeing all of those TikToks of the metal spoons and the magnets" hanging from people's arms, she said as she visited a clinic in East Los Angeles with her mother, Bellanira Reyes. "I was pretty scared of it, but I decided whatever happens, happens."




The story has a whole host of vignettes about young people who are finally scared enough to put down their phones and hold out their arms.

It’s sad, though, because it’s a story of people who don’t read real news, and either didn’t realize the danger they were in or feared ridiculous bogus side effects like magnetism. 

I hope this trend keeps up, however belated. 









						'A rush to get shots'
					

They were unmoved by the urgings of President Joe Biden to get vaccinated. They've spurned calls from the nation's leading doctors, as well as from sports heroes and movie stars. But one thing is finally grabbing the attention of millions of unvaccinated Americans - the invasion of the...




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## Alli

I stopped into CVS a few days ago to pick up a Rx, and for the first time there was actually a line of people waiting to get their vaccine. Maybe they got offended by all the negative press about Alabackwards.


----------



## SuperMatt

Thomas Veil said:


> *Finally* we’re seeing the light bulb going on over some of these people’s heads.
> 
> The vaccine-hesitant (as opposed to the dedicated anti-vaxxers) are starting—starting, mind you—to get immunized.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s still dumbfounding that these people literally waited until they saw people dying all around them to get the shot.
> 
> This person, on the other hand, has a better excuse: she’s twelve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The story has a whole host of vignettes about young people who are finally scared enough to put down their phones and hold out their arms.
> 
> It’s sad, though, because it’s a story of people who don’t read real news, and either didn’t realize the danger they were in or feared ridiculous bogus side effects like magnetism.
> 
> I hope this trend keeps up, however belated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'A rush to get shots'
> 
> 
> They were unmoved by the urgings of President Joe Biden to get vaccinated. They've spurned calls from the nation's leading doctors, as well as from sports heroes and movie stars. But one thing is finally grabbing the attention of millions of unvaccinated Americans - the invasion of the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com



I am sorry that it took this long for them, but I am happy they have seen the light.


----------



## JayMysteri0

THIS, on the other hand...
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1420759761235107841/

It almost makes me wish we could delegate a vaccine to every American specifically.  That way if someone chooses not to take it, we send it somewhere that wants the vaccine and they get a 'your welcome' from that American who passed on it.  That way someone is still benefitting.


----------



## Herdfan

Thomas Veil said:


> It’s still dumbfounding that these people literally waited until they saw people dying all around them to get the shot.




At this point, does the reason matter as long as they are doing it.


----------



## Thomas Veil

God help us, this man is stupid.​

Sen. Ron Johnson says he'd support a vaccine mandate for an 'incredibly deadly' virus but not COVID-19, which has killed more than 613,000 Americans​








						Sen. Ron Johnson says he'd support a vaccine mandate for an 'incredibly deadly' virus but not COVID-19, which has killed more than 613,000 Americans
					

So far, COVID-19 has killed more than 613,000 people in the US and more than 4.2 million people globally.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> At this point, does the reason matter as long as they are doing it.




Yeah I don't care about that either.   Some of the county fairs in August will have vaccinations on tap as part of "the attractions".  Hope it bumps up the totals for areas where the rate is still low.   Part of that was delayed access in rural areas, not necessarily political or general anti-vax resistance,  but access to vaccines around here now is picking up  to where most of the health care clinics have allocations they can count on.  I"m getting the J&J jab in mid-August.


----------



## JayMysteri0

The jokes are increasing as people get more worried

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1421589166593249282/


----------



## Runs For Fun

Glad to see some articles on this. We can’t get out of this because of idiots. It’s so infuriating. 



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/31/vaccinated-angry-at-unvaccinated/
		










						Some vaccinated Americans have lost their patience with those refusing the shot as Covid-19 cases surge and mandates return
					

With Covid-19 cases and hospitalizations now surging again and officials across the US suddenly reimposing restrictions after a summer of semi normalcy, many vaccinated Americans are becoming increasingly angry at those who won't get vaccinated.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Eric

Tennessee GOP rep who rejected masks now says COVID-19 is 'real and dangerous' after his 8-month battle with the virus









						Tennessee GOP rep who rejected masks now says COVID-19 is real and dangerous after his 8-month battle with the virus
					

David Byrd once shunned masks but is now urging people to take COVID-19 seriously after his eight-month battle with the virus.




					www.insider.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

Why won't people get the extra things impacted by THEIR decisions when it comes to risking getting covid?  It isn't just your health...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1422400868826198018/

People need to think past themselves when it comes to this, the effects of this are going to be felt long after, and some people don't realize it.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1422429918290399261/


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Why won't people get the extra things impacted by THEIR decisions when it comes to risking getting covid?  It isn't just your health...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1422400868826198018/
> 
> People need to think past themselves when it comes to this, the effects of this are going to be felt long after, and some people don't realize it.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1422429918290399261/



If any GOP politician in 2021 tried the “ask not what your country can do for you…” line, they’d be booed out of politics forever. It’s a party of the selfish, run by the selfish. And they pretend to be patriots. It’s disgusting to me.

We are seeing it bleed into the military too. Young soldiers swear an oath to live by the Army (or other branch) values… which includes “selfless service” in all of them. And yet they cannot get a vaccine. If you really care about the mission, you’d realize you are affecting military readiness. If you need to go to war and half the unit isn’t vaccinated, can you even deploy? They don’t give a crap. They are only in it for themselves.


----------



## Alli

JayMysteri0 said:


> People need to think past themselves when it comes to this, the effects of this are going to be felt long after, and some people don't realize it.



The new GQP has taught them it’s ok to be selfish and think only of yourself. This holds true for health care, voting rights, and equal pay. “If I’m ok, screw everyone else.”


----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## Runs For Fun

File this under “No Shit”








						Breakthrough cases aren’t the cause of the US Covid-19 surge
					

Unvaccinated people still make up the vast majority of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.




					www.vox.com


----------



## Alli

Anyone have any insight into the vaccines taken by those with breakthrough cases?  I’d love to know if there’s an equal chance of a breakthrough case regardless of the vaccine, or if a majority are coming from people who got Moderna (for example).


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> Anyone have any insight into the vaccines taken by those with breakthrough cases?  I’d love to know if there’s an equal chance of a breakthrough case regardless of the vaccine, or if a majority are coming from people who got Moderna (for example).




I've heard on the news that J&J is not quite as effective but still works, consider that anecdotal hearsay though. While not complete, this article from July 30th gives an idea of J&J vs Moderna in a recent study. However, it makes no mention of Pfizer.


> In Oklahoma, where cases are up by 67 percent, state officials broke down the data to show that for residents who got Johnson & Johnson vaccine the incidents of breakthrough were greater at 160 per 100,000 people compared to 93 per 100,000 for Moderna.




Here is the entire thing:








						Breakthrough Covid cases: Data shows how many vaccinated Americans have tested positive
					

The 125,682 "breakthrough" cases in 38 states represent less than .08 percent of the 164.2 million-plus people fully vaccinated since January.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Alli

Eric said:


> I've heard on the news that J&J is not quite as effective but still works, consider that anecdotal hearsay though. While not complete, this article from July 30th gives an idea of J&J vs Moderna in a recent study. However, it makes no mention of Pfizer.
> 
> 
> Here is the entire thing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breakthrough Covid cases: Data shows how many vaccinated Americans have tested positive
> 
> 
> The 125,682 "breakthrough" cases in 38 states represent less than .08 percent of the 164.2 million-plus people fully vaccinated since January.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com



Most interesting is that only 30 states have provided the details needed.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Let's goooo!








						F.D.A. Aims to Give Final Approval to Pfizer Vaccine by Early Next Month
					

The Food and Drug Administration’s move is expected to kick off more vaccination mandates for hospital workers, college students and federal troops.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Pumbaa

Runs For Fun said:


> Let's goooo!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F.D.A. Aims to Give Final Approval to Pfizer Vaccine by Early Next Month
> 
> 
> The Food and Drug Administration’s move is expected to kick off more vaccination mandates for hospital workers, college students and federal troops.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



Awesome! Wonder what the next excuse will be when “It’S eXpErImEnTaL, NoT aPpRoVeD” won’t work.


----------



## Renzatic

Pumbaa said:


> Awesome! Wonder what the next excuse will be when “It’S eXpErImEnTaL, NoT aPpRoVeD” won’t work.




"So you trust the government to tell you something's safe? WHAT ABOUT DDT, HUH? HOW SAFE WAS THAT?"


----------



## Runs For Fun

Pumbaa said:


> Awesome! Wonder what the next excuse will be when “It’S eXpErImEnTaL, NoT aPpRoVeD” won’t work.



Probably "AppRoVaL waS RUshEd"


----------



## Renzatic

Runs For Fun said:


> Probably "AppRoVaL waS RUshEd"




MOST VACCINES TAKE YEARS TO GET APPROVAL!


----------



## Pumbaa

Renzatic said:


> MOST VACCINES TAKE YEARS TO GET APPROVAL!



But but but Warp Speed! Fast!


----------



## Runs For Fun

Pumbaa said:


> But but but Warp Speed! Fast!



5G goes brrrrr


----------



## Renzatic

Pumbaa said:


> But but but Warp Speed! Fast!




It never went plaid. Don't trust it.


----------



## Alli

Renzatic said:


> "So you trust the government to tell you something's safe? WHAT ABOUT DDT, HUH? HOW SAFE WAS THAT?"






Runs For Fun said:


> Probably "AppRoVaL waS RUshEd"






Renzatic said:


> MOST VACCINES TAKE YEARS TO GET APPROVAL!




I’ve already started seeing Facebook posts referencing thalidomide. They don’t understand science. They don’t want to understand science.


----------



## SuperMatt

Looks like the vaccine will be mandatory for active duty military members very soon…

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/as-delta-surges-us-military-braces-for-mandatory-covid-19-vaccines/ar-AAMTKo0


----------



## SuperMatt

Vaccine demand has quadrupled in Louisiana.









						Alarmed Louisiana Residents Turn to Vaccines in ‘Darkest Days’ of Pandemic (Published 2021)
					

Louisiana is leading the nation in an explosion of new cases. Hospitals are overflowing and admitting more young people than before. But the crisis is also driving some to get vaccinated.




					www.nytimes.com
				




It seems to me that this is a “shit’s getting real” response from the unvaccinated areas of America. Almost every case of COVID has been to unvaccinated people. Now that the pool of unvaccinated is smaller, it is more likely that people are seeing a friend or relative sick or dying. Only the most extreme people will be able to ignore reality and believe anti-vax lies now.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> Vaccine demand has quadrupled in Louisiana.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alarmed Louisiana Residents Turn to Vaccines in ‘Darkest Days’ of Pandemic (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> Louisiana is leading the nation in an explosion of new cases. Hospitals are overflowing and admitting more young people than before. But the crisis is also driving some to get vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me that this is a “shit’s getting real” response from the unvaccinated areas of America. Almost every case of COVID has been to unvaccinated people. Now that the pool of unvaccinated is smaller, it is more likely that people are seeing a friend or relative sick or dying. Only the most extreme people will be able to ignore reality and believe anti-vax lies now.



They're getting painted into an ever shrinking corner, it's too bad this is what it took for them to understand but at least we're starting to see a real shift here.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Eric said:


> They're getting painted into an every shrinking corner, it's too bad this is what it took for them to understand but at least we're starting to see a real shift here.



Hopefully this trend continues.


----------



## JayMysteri0

...and get a vaccine, even if it kills them NOT getting the shot.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Only the most extreme people will be able to ignore reality and believe anti-vax lies now.




I'm going to push back on this a bit.

Just because someone doesn't trust a vaccine that was developed on a timeline way faster than ever before, doesn't really have anything to do with lies.  We don't have any studies determining if there could be any long-term issues simply because there hasn't been enough time to determine that.  That is not a lie.  That is a fact.  And this is coming from someone who is vaccinated and does have some concerns over long-term issues.

Are they big concerns, no.  But I have to admit there was a tinge of nervousness when I was getting the jab because there have been issues with a very small minority of people.  Could I have been one?  Absolutely.  But for me, it was worth the risk, at whatever level it is, to be able to go inside mom's assisted living facility to visit her, so the benefit outweighed the risks.

Microchips and controlling people via the vaccine, those are lies.  Legitimate concerns over long-term affects are not.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Herdfan said:


> Just because someone doesn't trust a vaccine that was developed on a timeline way faster than ever before, doesn't really have anything to do with lies. We don't have any studies determining if there could be any long-term issues simply because there hasn't been enough time to determine that.



This is somewhat of a weak argument IMO. Once again, mRNA is not a new technology. It has been around for years. The chance of some long term affect that hasn't been discovered already is probably extremely low.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> We don't have any studies determining if there could be any long-term issues simply because there hasn't been enough time to determine that. That is not a lie. That is a fact. And this is coming from someone who is vaccinated and does have some concerns over long-term issues.




Going by the list of ingredients, there's only one long term symptom of the vaccine, and that's an immune response to whatever protein is encoded on the RNA strand. The rest of the vaccine the little globs of fat for housing and delivering said RNA strand, and a solution providing a PH balanced environment to store those globs of fat in over time, all of which are flushed from the body fairly quicklike.

The usual side effects are mostly anaphylactic responses to the ingredients within the vaccine, which you're going to know about fairly quicklike. Basically, if you go a week without any side effects, the likelihood of experiencing anything beyond that are slim to none.


----------



## SuperMatt

Renzatic said:


> Going by the list of ingredients, there's only one long term symptom of the vaccine, and that's an immune response to whatever protein is encoded on the RNA strand. The rest of the vaccine the little globs of fat for housing and delivering said RNA strand, and a solution providing a PH balanced environment to store those globs of fat in over time, all of which are flushed from the body fairly quicklike.
> 
> The usual side effects are mostly anaphylactic responses to the ingredients within the vaccine, which you're going to know about fairly quicklike. Basically, if you go a week without any side effects, the likelihood of experiencing anything beyond that are slim to none.



Thank you. The concerns about long-term effects of the vaccine might seem “legitimate” but they are not based on facts. Vaccines have been around for a very long time, and their long-term effects? Well, the eradication of polio from existence could be considered a long-term effect of that vaccine.

Those short-term reactions: that’s why they make you sit down for 30 minutes after the shot before leaving the vaccination site... just in case you get a reaction.


----------



## Herdfan

Runs For Fun said:


> This is somewhat of a weak argument IMO. Once again, mRNA is not a new technology. It has been around for years. The chance of some long term affect that hasn't been discovered already is probably extremely low.




I agree.  It probably is very low.  But very low does not equal non-existant.  There are some people who have had bad reactions, 30 minute wait or not.  That is a concern for some people and has nothing to do with lies.  The flu shot has been around for decades and even now, some people (granted very, very few) have serious life changing reactions.

So not a single person on here can declare the COVID vaccines 100% safe.  If you think you can, then you are the one lying.

But my overall point is some people have legitimate concerns about how the vaccine will affect them.  That is not a lie.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> I agree. It probably is very low. But very low does not equal non-existant. There are some people who have had bad reactions, 30 minute wait or not. That is a concern for some people and has nothing to do with lies. The flu shot has been around for decades and even now, some people (granted very, very few) have serious life changing reactions.




That's true of any medication. They all have a non-zero chance of killing you dead.

When it comes to medicines in general, nothing is guaranteed 100% effective, nor 100% safe.


----------



## SuperMatt

Renzatic said:


> That's true of any medication. They all have a non-zero chance of killing you dead.
> 
> When it comes to medicines in general, nothing is guaranteed 100% effective, nor 100% safe.



Any time you eat anything at a restaurant, you are probably putting yourself at a greater risk than if you took the COVID vaccine. PLUS, taking the vaccine greatly LOWERS the risk of dying from COVID. This reminds me of the seatbelt argument years ago. “I might get stuck in my seatbelt and not able to get out of the car” is certainly a possibility, but the seatbelt so drastically improves your chances of surviving a car crash that your overall risk is much lower when wearing it. Nobody is 100% safe. Getting the vaccine is the lowest-risk option available today.


----------



## SuperMatt

A Halloween display is used to scare people into getting vaccines.









						‘You’re endangering America’: Man uses giant Halloween skeleton in warning to unvaccinated
					

The attorney says his warning is personal, having lost his mother-in-law, 14 clients and a former employee to the virus.




					www.wlbt.com


----------



## Runs For Fun

Herdfan said:


> I agree.  It probably is very low.  But very low does not equal non-existant.  There are some people who have had bad reactions, 30 minute wait or not.  That is a concern for some people and has nothing to do with lies.  The flu shot has been around for decades and even now, some people (granted very, very few) have serious life changing reactions.
> 
> So not a single person on here can declare the COVID vaccines 100% safe.  If you think you can, then you are the one lying.
> 
> But my overall point is some people have legitimate concerns about how the vaccine will affect them.  That is not a lie.



Everything you do in life is not without risk. We take risks every day with everything we do. This is something people who are overly concerned about effects of the vaccine seem to forget. Every time you get in your car you risk getting in a serious accident. In fact driving carries more risk than the COVID-19 vaccine but let’s just overlook that.


----------



## Eric

The tides are continuing to shift...









						United will require its U.S. employees to be vaccinated, a first for country's major airlines
					

United employees must be vaccinated five weeks after the FDA fully approves a Covid vaccine or five weeks after Sept. 20, whichever is first.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> I agree.  It probably is very low.  But very low does not equal non-existant.  There are some people who have had bad reactions, 30 minute wait or not.  That is a concern for some people and has nothing to do with lies.  The flu shot has been around for decades and even now, some people (granted very, very few) have serious life changing reactions.
> 
> So not a single person on here can declare the COVID vaccines 100% safe.  If you think you can, then you are the one lying.
> 
> But my overall point is some people have legitimate concerns about how the vaccine will affect them.  That is not a lie.



Everything we do in medicine, whether therapeutic or preventive, has a risk. Even purely diagnostic procedures have the potential to do harm. The challenge is providing patients with sufficient information for them to decide whether the risk is acceptable to them. That's the process of informed consent, in which the risks, benefits, and alternatives are discussed frankly. But there are no guarantees — it's impossible to say that you won't be the person who suffers severe consequences one out of a million times.

With measures like vaccines, there are also public health considerations in play. If a patient declines a cancer therapy and dies, the effects on society tend to be small. However, unvaccinated individuals pose a threat to others around them, particularly if they work in healthcare. Hence the appropriately rising tide of hospitals and other businesses that are requiring vaccination (or frequent testing) as a condition of employment.

This doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about vaccines, excluding off-the-wall conspiracy theories. Some of the confusion relates to reactions and side effects, which range from self-limiting symptoms like fever and chills to conditions like anaphylaxis. These generally occur in close temporal proximity to the vaccination and are rarely fatal.

Worry about long-term effects is also understandable. However, it can be mitigated by expert knowledge about how vaccines work. For example, the two mRNA vaccines don't interact with the host's DNA. I've heard counter arguments that we can't prove there aren't any deleterious consequences that won't show up for, say, a decade or more. But that's always been and will forever be true of any intervention.

Social media have been a blessing and a curse during the COVID-19 pandemic. They're sometimes a source of good information, but they too often to the opposite. It's especially remarkable to see people throw around study results despite having no specialized training or knowledge to assess their scientific validity. I don't blame people who have reasonable hesitancy, but I can't abide the influencers, media personalities, and politicians who spread misinformation.


----------



## Roller

From talking to colleagues in many disciplines, I believe the pandemic experience will have deleterious effects on healthcare workers for a generation or more. And it's not just the physicians and nurses with direct patient contact — it's all the support people, from the folks who clean the rooms to the IT personnel who keep information systems running. I've made this point before, but the magnitude is increasingly becoming clear to me. _This opinion piece_ in the Washington Post sums it up well. 

All of us in healthcare are accustomed to working with people whose illness or injury was largely preventable, whether it's a driver who didn't wear a seatbelt or a patient who didn't take prescribed medications as directed. But none of us has ever seen anything that approaches what's happening now with anti-vaccination and mandates against risk mitigation. Tens of thousands of vaccine doses are being discarded in the United States while most of the rest of the world longs for them.


----------



## JayMysteri0

An example of the levels of disinformation some are willing to go to.

_Courtesy of Twitter_


> What you need to know
> 
> – Bourla never refused to receive the COVID-19 vaccine, according to Snopes, FactCheck.org and USA Today
> – The Pfizer CEO announced in a Tweet that he received his second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine on March 10
> – Bourla had earlier announced that he intended to wait until his age group was eligible for the jab, according to AFP
> – According to The Associated Press, Bourla’s planned trip to Israel was rescheduled “months ago, when vaccines were still rolling out”



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1423679438437367810/

I really can't grasp the desire to spread disinformation that so many seem obsessed with.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Good








						Dr. Anthony Fauci: Expect 'a flood' of COVID-19 vaccine mandates after full FDA approval
					

Top U.S. infectious disease physician Dr. Anthony Fauci told USA TODAY he doesn't see future lockdowns but expects vaccine mandates to be common.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

Trending this evening on Twitter is #diesfromcovid.

One story that was at the top of the pile.



> Ex-Newsmax Host Who Called Fauci ‘Lying Freak’ Dies of COVID
> 
> 
> On his deathbed, Dick Farrel changed his tune, telling his friends to get vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedailybeast.com





> A anti-vaccine right-wing radio host in West Palm Beach, Florida died Wednesday from COVID-19 complications.
> 
> Dick Farrel, 65, used his local talk show and social media to rail against Dr. Anthony Fauci, who he called a “power tripping lying freak,” and say that no one should get the coronavirus vaccine. When COVID-19 sent him to the hospital for three weeks, though, he changed his tune, urging friends to get vaccinated, friends told local station WPTV.
> 
> Farrel wrote in early July, “Vaccine Bogus Bull Shid!, Two peeps I know, got vaxed, now have Corona, hospitalized critical. Thank you Moderna, FOR NOTHING!” He erroneously told his followers they would not need the vaccine if they had already survived COVID-19. The CDC has advised former coronavirus patients to get vaccinated.
> 
> Two days later, he wrote, “Why take a vax promoted by people who lied 2u all along about masks.” He called Fauci “FOOT-chee” and said that the infectious disease expert and “power trip libb loons” Democrats were conspiring to make it seem like the pandemic was ongoing so they could grab more power.
> 
> In late June, he wrote, “So, u think it wasn’t a SCAM DEMIC? NOT ONE ELECTED DEMOCRAT ever tested positive.” He called masks “face diapers” and “face pantys.”
> 
> An ardent supporter of former President Donald Trump, Farrel wrote often about baseless conspiracy theories of election fraud. In June, he penned a fearmongering post about liberals wanting to remove the American flag, writing, “Civil war beckons.”
> 
> Amy Leigh Hair, a close friend of Farrel, wrote on Facebook, “COVID took one of my best friends! RIP Dick Farrel. He is the reason I took the shot. He texted me and told me to ‘Get it!’ He told me this virus is no joke and he said, ‘I wish I had gotten it!’”


----------



## JayMysteri0

By now, if you are on social media, you probably have seen this video that has been shared all week.

If not...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1424057155007692808/


----------



## Alli

JayMysteri0 said:


> Trending this evening on Twitter is #diesfromcovid.
> 
> One story that was at the top of the pile.



And I’m at the point where I read this and all I can think is “good.” And then I hate them even more for making me feel this way.


----------



## SuperMatt

Alli said:


> And I’m at the point where I read this and all I can think is “good.” And then I hate them even more for making me feel this way.



Survival of the fittest is a simple fact of biology. In this case, it is the mentally fit that will be able to pass on their genes. The human race is evolving with an assist from COVID-19. Our society as a whole tries to protect even its weakest members, but in this case the weakest members are refusing the help.


----------



## SuperMatt

An article about anger at the unvaccinated that made me pause and think.









						Opinion | What to Do With Our Covid Rage (Published 2021)
					

We can start by being honest about our anger and where it comes from.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> An article about anger at the unvaccinated that made me pause and think.




Pretty good article. 

My personal thoughts on this are simply due to the ever constant changing of what was coming out of the press and CDC on a daily basis.  Some people can roll with change, some can't.  So when you have the CDC saying one thing one day and then something else a week later, people lose confidence.  Back then it was about social distancing and masks, or 2 masks or 2 masks and a face shield.  So when the CDC can't seem to stay consistent on messaging, how do you think people, especially the less educated ones detailed in the article, are going to react?  

I mean it's one thing for the CDC to be wrong about masks and social distancing.  Neither really can hurt you.  But then you have the CDC encouraging people to get a shot and the thought process becomes "What are they not telling me?" or What do they not know this time?"  Add to that reports that people who have legitimate negative reactions to the vaccine are being silenced (Eric Clapton), what are these people who are hesitant in the first place, supposed to believe?


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Pretty good article.
> 
> My personal thoughts on this are simply due to the ever constant changing of what was coming out of the press and CDC on a daily basis.  Some people can roll with change, some can't.  So when you have the CDC saying one thing one day and then something else a week later, people lose confidence.  Back then it was about social distancing and masks, or 2 masks or 2 masks and a face shield.  So when the CDC can't seem to stay consistent on messaging, how do you think people, especially the less educated ones detailed in the article, are going to react?
> 
> I mean it's one thing for the CDC to be wrong about masks and social distancing.  Neither really can hurt you.  But then you have the CDC encouraging people to get a shot and the thought process becomes "What are they not telling me?" or What do they not know this time?"  Add to that reports that people who have legitimate negative reactions to the vaccine are being silenced (Eric Clapton), what are these people who are hesitant in the first place, supposed to believe?



Please explain to me how Eric Clapton was “silenced” - when I can read all about his experience in _Rolling Stone_ and dozens of other media outlets. If he was truly “silenced” - you never would have heard about it. Instead, it’s one of the top stories on the internet.

His initial side effects were a bit worse than most, but in speaking to many people that got vaccines, the side effects ranged from none to about a week of feeling quite sick. All of them recovered (including Clapton) and are doing just fine. People without vaccines are dying, intubated, unable to say goodbye to their families.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Please explain to me how Eric Clapton was “silenced” - when I can read all about his experience in _Rolling Stone_ and dozens of other media outlets. If he was truly “silenced” - you never would have heard about it. Instead, it’s one of the top stories on the internet.
> 
> His initial side effects were a bit worse than most, but in speaking to many people that got vaccines, the side effects ranged from none to about a week of feeling quite sick. All of them recovered (including Clapton) and are doing just fine. People without vaccines are dying, intubated, unable to say goodbye to their families.




Yes, his story is slowly getting out there.  But there has been tremendous pushback on him.  He also got the AZ which as far as I know is not available here in the USA.









						Musician Eric Clapton attacked for revealing his own Covid-19 vaccine side effects, concerns for kids
					

‘Tears in Heaven’ musician Eric Clapton is being accused of discouraging people from getting vaccinated against Covid-19 after he expressed concern about the effects of the inoculations, especially on children.




					www.rt.com
				




This is along the lines of what I posted above.  Anyone who is concerned about getting the vaccine and then sees people being harassed and bullied for stating their opinion is not helping.  I understand the pro-vaxxers not wanting incorrect negative information out there, but when someone simply wants to put their own story out there and are attacked, those who are truly on the fence see this and think "What are they hiding or what do they not want me to know?"


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Yes, his story is slowly getting out there.  But there has been tremendous pushback on him.  He also got the AZ which as far as I know is not available here in the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Musician Eric Clapton attacked for revealing his own Covid-19 vaccine side effects, concerns for kids
> 
> 
> ‘Tears in Heaven’ musician Eric Clapton is being accused of discouraging people from getting vaccinated against Covid-19 after he expressed concern about the effects of the inoculations, especially on children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rt.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is along the lines of what I posted above.  Anyone who is concerned about getting the vaccine and then sees people being harassed and bullied for stating their opinion is not helping.  I understand the pro-vaxxers not wanting incorrect negative information out there, but when someone simply wants to put their own story out there and are attacked, those who are truly on the fence see this and think "What are they hiding or what do they not want me to know?"



It’s not his personal story that is the problem. It’s his total disregard for the health and safety of others.









						Eric Clapton says he won't play venues that require COVID vaccines
					

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said only the fully vaccinated will be able to go to nightclubs and venues with big crowds in England starting in September.




					www.12newsnow.com
				




If you don’t want to get a vaccine, fine. If you had side-effects and want to complain about them, fine. But when you insist that crowds coming to your show NOT be checked for vaccinations status, you’re putting others at risk for selfish reasons. End result: he doesn’t play any concerts. No big loss.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Yes, his story is slowly getting out there.  But there has been tremendous pushback on him.  He also got the AZ which as far as I know is not available here in the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Musician Eric Clapton attacked for revealing his own Covid-19 vaccine side effects, concerns for kids
> 
> 
> ‘Tears in Heaven’ musician Eric Clapton is being accused of discouraging people from getting vaccinated against Covid-19 after he expressed concern about the effects of the inoculations, especially on children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rt.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is along the lines of what I posted above.  Anyone who is concerned about getting the vaccine and then sees people being harassed and bullied for stating their opinion is not helping.  I understand the pro-vaxxers not wanting incorrect negative information out there, but when someone simply wants to put their own story out there and are attacked, those who are truly on the fence see this and think "What are they hiding or what do they not want me to know?"




1) Do you know whose site RT is? Aren't you concerned about Russian state propaganda?
2) You're defending the wrong guy. Let me quote Clapton:


> Do we have any foreigners in the audience tonight? If so, please put up your hands… So where are you? Well wherever you all are, I think you should all just leave. Not just leave the hall, leave our country … I don’t want you here, in the room or in my country. Listen to me, man! I think we should send them all back. Stop Britain from becoming a black colony. Get the foreigners out. Get the wogs out. Get the coons out. Keep Britain white …



3) He experienced an exacerbation of his underlying chronic neuropathy secondary to the inflammatory milieu caused by the vaccine. He would have had a similar experience if he contracted the flu or got a UTI. His experience with the vaccine isn't any more relevant than anybody else's just because he's famous.


----------



## Pumbaa

P_X said:


> His experience with the vaccine isn't any more relevant than anybody else's just because he's famous.



His experience is only relevant to them because it supports the conclusion they want to reach (ie started out with).


----------



## JayMysteri0

With a stat like THIS, how do you NOT worry?!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1424529083325566979/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Did NOT see this coming



> Over 1 Million People Have Gotten Unauthorized Covid-19 Booster Shots: Report
> 
> 
> As cases from the Delta variant soar, some people are apparently seeking out additional vaccine doses in hopes of gaining more protection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gizmodo.com





> A CDC briefing document seen by ABC News estimates that at least a million people have received covid-19 booster shots. The number may be higher, since the document reportedly does not account for people who’ve received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. The document is not publicly available, and in an email to Gizmodo, a CDC spokesperson said that the agency does “not comment on leaked information.”
> 
> Currently, a person in the U.S. is considered fully vaccinated after one dose of a Johnson & Johnson covid-19 vaccine or two doses of a Pfizer or Moderna vaccine. But some people have been getting additional doses, either on the advice of their doctor or simply by deciding on their own: Last month, Camille Kotton, a member of the CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, told the Washington Post that many have “taken matters into their own hands and many are proceeding with additional doses of vaccine as they see fit.”
> 
> As health policy outlet STAT has reported, vaccine sites would have to decide to check health records to catch someone getting an extra dose, and hospitals have to set their own policies in determining which patients might be prescribed additional doses. Insurers will need to decide whether to cover them.
> 
> Scientists have said that we so far lack adequate data to show that boosters are necessary yet, including for immunocompromised people, who face highest health risks of covid-19 infections. While the Delta variant seems more capable than earlier strains of infecting a vaccinated person, the current vaccine dosing schedule still appears to offer strong protection against serious illness and death. Pfizer and Moderna have suggested that additional doses could be needed to boost immunity in some people by this fall or winter, but the World Health Organization called for a moratorium on boosters until September, pointing out that it further incentivizes rich countries to hoard vaccines while some nations haven’t even dispensed first doses. Less than 1% of people in 23 countries, primarily in the Middle East and Africa, have been fully vaccinated. In the Democratic Republic of Congo and Haiti, that number is zero.




Either we can't get the most affected to get a shot, or we have people getting unauthorized booster shots.

We are a land of extremes.


----------



## Herdfan

I don't know about everyone else, but when I got mine, they entered all my info in a database.  Wouldn't that show up if someone tried to get a 3rd shot?


----------



## Herdfan

Ruh Roh!









						New data suggests Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines may be less effective against Delta
					

A senior Biden official called the preprint study "a wakeup call."




					www.axios.com


----------



## Herdfan

I know you all aren't big fans of FoxNews, but Fox did call her out for being an anti-vaxxer:









						Anti-vax nurse injects 8,600 with saline instead of COVID vaccine: police
					

A German nurse is being investigated for allegedly injecting thousands of people with a placebo instead of the coronavirus vaccine.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## hulugu

Herdfan said:


> I know you all aren't big fans of FoxNews, but Fox did call her out for being an anti-vaxxer:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-vax nurse injects 8,600 with saline instead of COVID vaccine: police
> 
> 
> A German nurse is being investigated for allegedly injecting thousands of people with a placebo instead of the coronavirus vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com




Fox gets no credit for calling her anti-vax. Actually, I'll give them 1 point for an obvious fact, which they lost immediately in the same story by calling her a "shot-blocker." 

And, the story hinges entirely on real reporting done by Reuters, which has on-the-ground reporters doing real work, including gathering quotes. Fox News has an intern capable of reading Reuter's wire feed, and able to cmd-copy whole sections. 

Meanwhile, Fox News continues to spend the real money on Tucker Carlson's Hungry is Awesome Fascism Mystery Tour.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> I know you all aren't big fans of FoxNews, but Fox did call her out for being an anti-vaxxer:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-vax nurse injects 8,600 with saline instead of COVID vaccine: police
> 
> 
> A German nurse is being investigated for allegedly injecting thousands of people with a placebo instead of the coronavirus vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com



Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


----------



## Hrafn

Herdfan said:


> I know you all aren't big fans of FoxNews, but Fox did call her out for being an anti-vaxxer:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-vax nurse injects 8,600 with saline instead of COVID vaccine: police
> 
> 
> A German nurse is being investigated for allegedly injecting thousands of people with a placebo instead of the coronavirus vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com



Well, I for one officially take back one bad thing I've thought or said about the douchebags at FuxNews.  Half.  Maybe half.  part.  just a part.  

Nah, no likes.  Still keeping them all.  They aren't Breitbart or ONN, but that's not saying anything of any value.  TRUMP HELLYA!


----------



## User.45

hulugu said:


> Meanwhile, Fox News continues to spend the real money on Tucker Carlson's Hungry is Awesome Fascism Mystery Tour.




You can be sure that Tucker's Hungary tour was sponsored by Orban. Though knowing what I know about Tucker, he's double dipping.


----------



## hulugu

P_X said:


> You can be sure that Tucker's Hungary tour was sponsored by Orban. Though knowing what I know about Tucker, he's double dipping.




Yep. There's all manner of oligarchical goo on Tucker and his coterie of shit-birds. I hope he gets cancer, an especially embarrassing form of it.


----------



## Alli

hulugu said:


> I hope he gets cancer, an especially embarrassing form of it.



Nah. He might die from it. I just hope he has to go through months of chemo.


----------



## Runs For Fun

This guy makes an excellent point. 




__





						TikTok - Make Your Day
					

TikTok - trends start here. On a device or on the web, viewers can watch and discover millions of personalized short videos. Download the app to get started.




					vm.tiktok.com


----------



## hulugu

Runs For Fun said:


> This guy makes an excellent point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TikTok - Make Your Day
> 
> 
> TikTok - trends start here. On a device or on the web, viewers can watch and discover millions of personalized short videos. Download the app to get started.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vm.tiktok.com




"If you don't trust the medical field about COVID-19, why do you trust them to cure it." 

Boom.


----------



## Runs For Fun

hulugu said:


> "If you don't trust the medical field about COVID-19, why do you trust them to cure it."
> 
> Boom.



That was the line that really stood out to me and highlights the absolute stupidity of these people.


----------



## Pumbaa

hulugu said:


> "If you don't trust the medical field about COVID-19, why do you trust them to cure it."
> 
> Boom.



Sorry. You’re not thinking like an idiot. Try harder (or less hard?).

“If I show up sick they have to cure me. They know as well as I do that COVID-19 isn’t real so they will have to cure what I actually got.”


----------



## Herdfan

hulugu said:


> "If you don't trust the medical field about COVID-19, why do you trust them to cure it."




It's not the medical field that is the problem.  It is what the politicians do with the information they get from the medical field.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> It's not the medical field that is the problem.  It is what the politicians do with the information they get from the medical field.



Exactly. Trump, DeSantis, Abbott… they all get the info and advice and then do the exact opposite. Just because a bunch of people voted for you doesn’t make you better at medicine than a doctor.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Exactly. Trump, DeSantis, Abbott… they all get the info and advice and then do the exact opposite. Just because a bunch of people voted for you doesn’t make you better at medicine than a doctor.



Dunning-Kruger effect at full force. I just spent 5 hours debunking a blogger called RollerGater's allegation on COVID deaths being more common once postvaccination infection occurs. This person claimed that everybody is misinforming everyone, but once I looked at their math, it was totally wrong and no such conclusion would be called. People suck.


----------



## Runs For Fun

SuperMatt said:


> Exactly. Trump, DeSantis, Abbott… they all get the info and advice and then do the exact opposite. Just because a bunch of people voted for you doesn’t make you better at medicine than a doctor.



Would it be bad to say it’s their own fault if they don’t get re-elected because all of their supporters are dead?


----------



## User.45

Runs For Fun said:


> Would it be bad to say it’s their own fault if they don’t get re-elected because all of their supporters are dead?



Considering DeSantis' previous margin, it's a dead serious possibility.


----------



## lizkat

Runs For Fun said:


> Would it be bad to say it’s their own fault if they don’t get re-elected because all of their supporters are dead?






P_X said:


> Considering DeSantis' previous margin, it's a dead serious possibility.





DeSantis' name keeps popping up as 2024 prez candidate...   so his potential electorate there is bigger, if equally dumb, which remains to be seen and I hope is not the case.


----------



## Eric

lizkat said:


> DeSantis' name keeps popping up as 2024 prez candidate...   so his potential electorate there is bigger, if equally dumb, which remains to be seen and I hope is not the case.



Nothing will make you lose all hope for humanity more than watching Trump get elected. I have no doubt that DeSantis could too, Americans just hate themselves sometimes.


----------



## hulugu

Herdfan said:


> It's not the medical field that is the problem.  It is what the politicians do with the information they get from the medical field.




People love to blame politicians, and politicos can often make mistakes about messaging, and can be hyperbole, hypocritical, etc. But, there's an entire industry of erstatz being spread on a daily basis to misrepresent even the most rational ideas. 

The medical field has said for people to get the vaccine, and yet people still act like "I am Legend" isn't a dumb movie, or that the crystal-banging dipshit who can' t set the timer on a VCR is somehow able to whipsaw through complex epidemiological data and sum it up in a YouTube video. 

Nurses and doctors are getting hammered because people like to make rhetorical wins, or misuse the phrase "We the People" rather than getting a shot. 180 million people got one, but these people think they're all so special, that they can just sit on the sidelines and watch the parade go by. 

Meanwhile, we've undermined herd immunity—it doesn't mean let it burn through and praise the survivors—and are just itching for this thing to get worse.


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> DeSantis' name keeps popping up as 2024 prez candidate...   so his potential electorate there is bigger, if equally dumb, which remains to be seen and I hope is not the case.



He needs to get reelected in 2022 first.


----------



## Herdfan

Looks like I may need to add an entry to my calendar so I don't forget.









						US expected to recommend COVID vaccine booster jab for all Americans
					

Health officials in the U.S. are coalescing behind a COVID-19 booster shot for all Americans eight months after they've received the second shot.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## lizkat

P_X said:


> He needs to get reelected in 2022 first.




One would think so.   But DeSantis is a part of TrumpWorld.    Who the hell knows what could happen.

When Trump was defeated in 2020,  a conversation I had with some kin had turned to pondering about "So what next?"  for The Don and any hangers-on with ideas to pick up the nomination should he falter before 2024.

I had airily suggested that Trump followers would shun him and ignore his acolytes:  "Once burned, twice shy."

"No way", the bro commented, and appended a quote from Johnathan Swift:

*“It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”*​
Likewise it may not follow that the best candidate from Trump fans' viewpoint is a guy who sticks to traditional ways and means of climbing political ladders.     For all we know DeSantis could resign and spend his erstwhile presumed re-election campaign season playing golf with Trump and schmoozing about 2024, then stump the country with The Don (or as his surrogate), then finally step into the convention spotlight at Trump's bidding on grounds that a win by DeSantis would give Trump fans eight more years of Trump-coached leadership of real Americans yada yada.

It seemed quite impossible that Trump could win election as president of this particular country back in the summer of 2015,  and yet he won.  At that moment a lot of other things unfortunately began to seem possible, and far too many of them have already actually occurred...  including the fact that although Trump lost his re-election bid, he got even more votes in 2020 than the first time around.  

See I think we've not so much landed in a "post-factual" era,  more like around half the country has simply abandoned reason.  Facts are fine to that crowd but they're optional stepping-stones as far as choiceful planning goes.  We seem to have got stuck in an eternal now of social media buzz and bright ideas (or, outrage) with the half-life of a Fourth of July sparkler.    With that as backdrop,  the idea that The Don and The Ron have a lock on the future could seem comforting to Trump's die-hard followers.  They get to rally on and not worry about a thing.

I sure God hope I'm just spinning a yarn here.


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> One would think so.   But DeSantis is a part of TrumpWorld.    Who the hell knows what could happen.
> 
> When Trump was defeated in 2020,  a conversation I had with some kin had turned to pondering about "So what next?"  for The Don and any hangers-on with ideas to pick up the nomination should he falter before 2024.
> 
> I had airily suggested that Trump followers would shun him and ignore his acolytes:  "Once burned, twice shy."
> 
> "No way", the bro commented, and appended a quote from Johnathan Swift:
> 
> *“It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”*​
> Likewise it may not follow that the best candidate from Trump fans' viewpoint is a guy who sticks to traditional ways and means of climbing political ladders.     For all we know DeSantis could resign and spend his erstwhile presumed re-election campaign season playing golf with Trump and schmoozing about 2024, then stump the country with The Don (or as his surrogate), then finally step into the convention spotlight at Trump's bidding on grounds that a win by DeSantis would give Trump fans eight more years of Trump-coached leadership of real Americans yada yada.
> 
> It seemed quite impossible that Trump could win election as president of this particular country back in the summer of 2015,  and yet he won.  At that moment a lot of other things unfortunately began to seem possible, and far too many of them have already actually occurred...  including the fact that although Trump lost his re-election bid, he got even more votes in 2020 than the first time around.
> 
> See I think we've not so much landed in a "post-factual" era,  more like around half the country has simply abandoned reason.  Facts are fine to that crowd but they're optional stepping-stones as far as choiceful planning goes.  We seem to have got stuck in an eternal now of social media buzz and bright ideas (or, outrage) with the half-life of a Fourth of July sparkler.    With that as backdrop,  the idea that The Don and The Ron have a lock on the future could seem comforting to Trump's die-hard followers.  They get to rally on and not worry about a thing.
> 
> I sure God hope I'm just spinning a yarn here.



Fair enough. Question is, whether DeSantis' ego could handle such second hand role especially given how disposable Trump considers allies.


----------



## lizkat

P_X said:


> Fair enough. Question is, whether DeSantis' ego could handle such second hand role especially given how disposable Trump considers allies.




Good point, and a clash of monumental egos is entirely possible.  Real question is whether DeSantis understands that danger or is already blinded by his ambition.    I don't figure Trump to become any more predictable with respect to sudden lashings-out as time goes on, either.   His behavior seems to reflect not just severe narcissim but also some level of neurological impairment.


----------



## User.45

lizkat said:


> Good point, and a clash of monumental egos is entirely possible.  Real question is whether DeSantis understands that danger or is already blinded by his ambition.    I don't figure Trump to become any more predictable with respect to sudden lashings-out as time goes on, either.   His behavior seems to reflect not just severe narcissim but also some level of neurological impairment.



The interesting thing about personality disorders, is the requirement of the traits causing suffering to the person or their environment. 
Well, narcissism made Trump an antimasker. So yeah, sometimes it's the person himself who does the suffering.


----------



## JayMysteri0

> Sonny Chiba, Martial Arts Legend and Japanese Actor, Passes at 82
> 
> 
> Martial arts legend and actor Sonny Chiba, star of The Street Fighter (1974), Kill Bill, and The Fast and Furious: Tokyo Drift passed at 82.
> 
> 
> 
> bleedingcool.com





> *Shin'ichi "Sonny" Chiba*, the legendary Japanese martial arts actor, passed at the age of 82 due to COVID complications. A career spanning seven decades, he made his debut in 1959 in the Japanese television series _Nana-iro kamen_. The actor continued his work across film and TV, becoming a crossover success to American audiences. Born Sadaho Maeda in Fukuoka, Japan, in 1939, he started training martial arts at the Nippon Sports Science University in 1957, learning under karate master *Masutatus "Mas" Oyama. He* earned a first-degree black belt in 1965.


----------



## hulugu

JayMysteri0 said:


>




Ooff.


----------



## DT

JayMysteri0 said:


>




Oh yeah my dude, I posted that in the movie thread ... <sad_face>


----------



## shadow puppet

UCLA just let me know I need to get a 3rd covid jab due to my suppressed immune system.  I’ll go as soon as they give me the green light.


----------



## Herdfan

shadow puppet said:


> UCLA just let me know I need to get a 3rd covid jab due to my suppressed immune system.  I’ll go as soon as they give me the green light.




8 month wait or no?


----------



## shadow puppet

Herdfan said:


> 8 month wait or no?



That's what I'm waiting to find out.  For the general populus, I believe it's 8 months.  For immuno suppressed people like me, it may be different.  The supplemental vaccines are still new so my own doctors aren't sure and trying to get info for me.


----------



## Eric

We're starting to hear rumblings of hospitals charging more and giving lower priority to the unvaccinated and it could be they'll have to face higher insurance costs. It's sad that it has come to this but what else can we do, these people are making it impossible for us to get ahead of this virus.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> We're starting to hear rumblings of hospitals charging more and giving lower priority to the unvaccinated and it could be they'll have to face higher insurance costs. It's sad that it has come to this but what else can we do, these people are making it impossible for us to get ahead of this virus.



As I said before, those who act libertarian when it's easy should also act libertarian when it's hard.


----------



## Eric

It feels like we're back to square one with this thing when we didn't actually have to be. We have allowed these selfish people to carelessly spread it and they will continue to do it as long as we let them. At this point anytime we see someone indoors (who isn't in the act of eating) without a mask, we also assume they're not vaccinated either and that's all you can do to protect yourself. Those who are vaccinated to want even a mild version and certainly don't want to spread it to others.

The news was reporting hospitals in some states are now having to turn away people with critical conditions, it's beyond ridiculous.

It's time for the Government to put their foot down here, screw these people if they don't like it. If they can't take the responsibility of getting the vaccine they either need to be mandated to or not allowed anywhere in public. It's obvious that nothing else will work here.


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> It feels like we're back to square one with this thing when we didn't actually have to be. We have allowed these selfish people to carelessly spread it and they will continue to do it as long as we let them. At this point anytime we see someone indoors (who isn't in the act of eating) without a mask, we also assume they're not vaccinated either and that's all you can do to protect yourself. Those who are vaccinated to want even a mild version and certainly don't want to spread it to others.
> 
> The news was reporting hospitals in some states are now having to turn away people with critical conditions, it's beyond ridiculous.
> 
> It's time for the Government to put their foot down here, screw these people if they don't like it. If they can't take the responsibility of getting the vaccine they either need to be mandated to or not allowed anywhere in public. It's obvious that nothing else will work here.



We have some governors making it illegal for schools to issue mask mandates. They are actively trying to kill children. The school boards are telling the governors to sod off, and risking fines or other punishment in order to protect children. These governors make Satan look like a pretty nice guy.


----------



## shadow puppet

Herdfan said:


> 8 month wait or no?



Got an update about the supplemental Covid vaccine.  Now I'm waiting to be contacted when they have available appointments. 
Per my email from UCLA Health:


----------



## Eric

Hoping the side effects from the booster aren't as bad as the second dose. All I can say is that these selfish assholes are the ones making the rest of us do the right thing, next one who bitches because they can't go into public without a mask or vaccine is getting kicked in the taint.


----------



## shadow puppet

Eric said:


> Hoping the side effects from the booster aren't as bad as the second dose. All I can say is that these selfish assholes are the one's making the rest of us do the right thing, next one who bitches because they can't go into public without a mask or vaccine is getting kicked in the taint.



I got lucky.  My second Moderna jab was a breeze compared to the first one.  But maybe it's b/c I had the monoclonal antibodies infusion in January and my body was more used to everything.  At least that's my non medically educated guess.

But yes, I too am hoping the 3rd jab isn't bad.  As it is, I abhor needles.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Even though I'm not a healthcare worker, I work with them.  I got my first shot mid January.  So I suspect they'll start bugging us soon about getting our third.


----------



## Runs For Fun

shadow puppet said:


> I got lucky.  My second Moderna jab was a breeze compared to the first one.  But maybe it's b/c I had the monoclonal antibodies infusion in January and my body was more used to everything.  At least that's my non medically educated guess.
> 
> But yes, I too am hoping the 3rd jab isn't bad.  As it is, I abhor needles.



I got super lucky and didn’t have any side effects from either dose.


----------



## Herdfan

Runs For Fun said:


> I got super lucky and didn’t have any side effects from either dose.




Same here.  Nothing but a sore arm.


----------



## Alli

Also no side effects. Not even a sore arm. #TeamPfizer. I was thinking of taking a run to the health department today to get my 3rd jab. They have the Pfizer and haven’t been worried about appointments for a long time.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Wish I could have said the same.

It literally gave me what felt like the flu.  I was fine the first day, then the next was bed ridden for a day & half, sore arm, and got the swelling in the armpit that shows it's working.

My second shot, I was just out of it for 12 hours.

Still beats being in the hospital.


----------



## Alli

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wish I could have said the same.



Which vaccine did you get?


----------



## Roller

A few facts about "boosters" for the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines:

Additional shots that are recommended for people with immune compromise are technically third doses that attempt to bring their immune defenses to an acceptable level. The definition of immune compromise is fairly lax in terms of the conditions that qualify, and the most that an individual might have to do when they present is attest that they're eligible. Nobody will check.
Additional shots for everyone else haven't yet been formally recommended. They're called boosters because they add to what was already presumed to be an adequate immune response. 
The timing is different. The shots for immune compromised people can be given as little as 29 days after the 2nd dose of an mRNA vaccine. The boosters will be given somewhere around 8 months later, which will initially apply to people like HCWs who were vaccinated in December-January 2020.
Whether boosters are needed will be discussed by the ACIP (Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices) on August 30-31. (That meeting was already delayed one week.) Based on data from Israel and other places, I'll be surprised if they don't recommend boosters.
Many people will probably be tempted to get boosters sooner than whatever ACIP recommends. As with other third shots, it probably won't be difficult for people to do this. However, timing is important. While there probably isn't any harm in getting a booster before the recommended interval, the immune boost conferred by the shot may be shorter that way.
Whether boosters tailored for Delta or other variants will be needed is an open question. Testing is underway, but there is no consensus on the requirement or timing for rollout yet. The good thing is that the underlying technology will enable quick reformulation.
Finally, people understandably wonder how all this applies to them. What if their protection from infection or severe disease is waning sooner than for the people? Unfortunately, there's no effective way to determine this, and recommended dosage and timing are based at the population level, which is the only practical method.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Alli said:


> Which vaccine did you get?



Pfizer.


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wish I could have said the same.
> 
> It literally gave me what felt like the flu.  I was fine the first day, then the next was bed ridden for a day & half, sore arm, and got the swelling in the armpit that shows it's working.
> 
> My second shot, I was just out of it for 12 hours.
> 
> Still beats being in the hospital.



Same for the most part, mild symptoms for the first one and the second one pretty much laid me out for a day but quickly resolved after that. It will be interesting to hear the results of the booster for those of us more impacted by the seconded shot.


----------



## MEJHarrison

I did well.  The arm was more sore after the first one.  I felt crappier after the second.  But not to the point of taking the day off or anything (I have PLENTY of time saved up).  So I guess that's pretty mild.


----------



## Alli

I’ll let y’all know how it goes after the 3rd one.


----------



## Pumbaa

Alli said:


> I’ll let y’all know how it goes after the 3rd one.



Third time in the arm, eh, is the charm?

Good luck and thanks for keeping us updated!


----------



## Alli

Morning after booster (3rd jab). Slight soreness in injection site. That’s it. We both feel fine.


----------



## SuperMatt

I’m already hearing stories of military members that were hesitant about the vaccine going to get their first jabs today, even though a deadline for compliance hasn’t been announced yet. This is great news and will save lives and improve military readiness.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Wow.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Just a feeling actually.  Like him refusing to use the term "radical Islamic terrorist" or continually referring to ISIS as ISIL when even the liberal media used those terms.



Do you think Trump is a “Muslim sympathizer” based on his insistence on saying “ISIS-X“ instead of ISIS?









						Trump keeps referring to Isis-X instead of Isis-K after insisting he could have stopped suicide bomber
					

Trump releases video message claiming attacks ‘would not have happened if I were your president’




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

If you're a sci fi nerd, roll like this...






For those not getting the reference...


----------



## SuperMatt

People are taking out their frustrations about COVID-19 on flight attendants.

It is disgusting that we have public figures putting out anti-mask and anti-vaccine propaganda. They are riling people up, and those people are deciding to vent that anger towards people that have literally nothing to do with health policy. I blame the leaders AND followers of the anti-vax and anti-mask movements for this unacceptable behavior. Incredible contrast here:



> Sara Nelson, president of the Association of Flight Attendants union that represents nearly 50,000 flight attendants at 17 airlines, noted that the difference in passenger response to the pandemic compared with the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks has been “night and day.”
> 
> Twenty years ago, “every single person who came on our plane was completely on our team,” she said. But now, flight attendants have become “punching bags for the public.”












						Flight Attendants’ Hellish Summer: ‘I Don’t Even Feel Like a Human’
					

For cabin crews, the peak travel season has turned into a chronic battle involving frequent delays, overwork and unruly passengers that leaves them feeling battered by the public and the airlines.




					www.nytimes.com
				




IMO, if Trump had done the right thing and tried to bring people together to fight the pandemic, you would see very little of this. Again, I blame him, but I also blame his followers who seem to have nasty tendencies already. Right-wing leaders seem to make it acceptable to behave badly, and these people JUMP at the opportunity to do so.


----------



## MEJHarrison

I got an email this morning saying that we're required to be vaccinated or have a medical or religious exemption by October 18th if we wish to keep working.  It also gives us the last day to get our first Moderna/Pfizer shots to hit that deadline.  And when we'd need our second dose to hit that deadline.

They're saying it's an Oregon mandate (probably because I work in healthcare).

Anyone who misses that deadline will be welcome to come back as soon as they're fully vaccinated or have their religious/medical exemption.

Fortunately it doesn't apply to me as I've been fully vaccinated since the beginning of February.


----------



## Herdfan

MEJHarrison said:


> Fortunately it doesn't apply to me as I've been fully vaccinated since the beginning of February.




Are they not requiring the 8th month booster for you?


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> People are taking out their frustrations about COVID-19 on flight attendants.




There is no excuse for that.  They didn't make the policy.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Herdfan said:


> Are they not requiring the 8th month booster for you?




I presume that's coming as well.  But it wasn't part of this email.


----------



## Alli

Just had brunch with a former student who’s an ICU nurse in New Orleans. She was not on rotation when Ida hit. Their entire emergency team is still at the hospital on duty, after a week. They are not being allowed to go home. Rhonda came home to stay with her mother since she has no electricity in NO. She got a text this morning demanding she report to work at 1800. Today. They will fire any employee who does not return to work, even though some of them cannot get there due to flooding and others who evacuated. 

This is a hospital (Oschner) with a full ICU due to Covid. How do they think they’re going to replace employees in the middle of a pandemic when potential healthcare workers know how they will be treated.


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> Just had brunch with a former student who’s an ICU nurse in New Orleans. She was not on rotation when Ida hit. Their entire emergency team is still at the hospital on duty, after a week. They are not being allowed to go home. Rhonda came home to stay with her mother since she has no electricity in NO. She got a text this morning demanding she report to work at 1800. Today. They will fire any employee who does not return to work, even though some of them cannot get there due to flooding and others who evacuated.
> 
> This is a hospital (Oschner) with a full ICU due to Covid. How do they think they’re going to replace employees in the middle of a pandemic when potential healthcare workers know how they will be treated.




If she is an ICU nurse, she will have no trouble getting a new job.  Hopefully one she likes better.


----------



## User.45

Alli said:


> "She got a text this morning demanding she report to work at 1800. Today. They will fire any employee who does not return to work"



This sorta made me laugh. There's always been an ICU nurse shortage because they take longer to train and hard to retain. On top of that there's a national nurse shortage  thanks to Southern "personal responsibility". So that "threat" is a pretty funny example of bad leadership.


----------



## shadow puppet

Just scheduled my 3rd jab for 9/20!  Hope it's as easy (no side effects) as my 2nd Moderna jab.


----------



## Alli

shadow puppet said:


> Just scheduled my 3rd jab for 9/20!  Hope it's as easy (no side effects) as my 2nd Moderna jab.



I had nothing from jab 3 beyond a sore arm.


----------



## Alli

I just found out that a former colleague of mine has Covid in the house for a second time. She, her husband, and two 5 year olds both had it last winter. They shared with her father, who died from it. The twins now have it again because they’re too young to get vaccinated.


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> Just had brunch with a former student who’s an ICU nurse in New Orleans. She was not on rotation when Ida hit. Their entire emergency team is still at the hospital on duty, after a week. They are not being allowed to go home. Rhonda came home to stay with her mother since she has no electricity in NO. She got a text this morning demanding she report to work at 1800. Today. They will fire any employee who does not return to work, even though some of them cannot get there due to flooding and others who evacuated.




Any update?


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Any update?



I checked with her over the weekend and her supervisor told her to report on Tuesday. I don’t know if she went back today or not. Will let ya know.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> I just found out that a former colleague of mine has Covid in the house for a second time. She, her husband, and two 5 year olds both had it last winter. They shared with her father, who died from it. The twins now have it again because they’re too young to get vaccinated.



Would be nice to see emergency approval for kids, look at all the schools now closing.


----------



## SuperMatt

”Breakthrough infections” are getting a lot of press. The media wants eyeballs; I get it. However, even in areas with high levels of infection, the chance of a breakthrough infection is 1 in 5,000. In areas with lower levels of infection, you are looking at a 1 in 10,000 chance.









						Breakthrough COVID Cases for the Vaccinated Remain Very Rare
					

Link to: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/briefing/risk-breakthrough-infections-delta.html




					daringfireball.net


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Any update?



She drove to New Orleans yesterday (it’s only a 2 hour drive) so that she could report for her shift. Left all her stuff in the car so that at the end of her shift she can drive home to Mobile. Still no power. She may yet give up the job and move back here.


----------



## Huntn

Since that are now allowing those with auto immune diseases to take a third dose, I asked at the local pharmacy if my wife’s Graves disease (underactive thyroid)  qualified. They said no, but added if she checks auto immune disease on the form, it will not be questioned. She might do it and get it out of the way.


----------



## SuperMatt

I saw an interesting proposal concerning vaccination.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1432705129883611150/


----------



## SuperMatt

This is not good:












						Opinion | Here Comes the Autumn of Anxiety (Published 2021)
					

The pandemic hasn’t ended; the rescue programs have.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Idaho has authorized hospitals to ration care. It’s a triage situation where a patient who is unlikely to survive COVID will be taken off of a ventilator so they can get somebody with a chance of survival in there.









						Idaho allows COVID-slammed hospitals to ration care for 1st time ever
					

Idaho has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the nation, and officials say a "massive increase in patients with COVID" forced the "last resort" move.




					www.cbsnews.com
				




Almost every single patient is unvaccinated. The few vaccinated patients that came into the hospitals did not have life-threatening symptoms.

You could have a heart attack and cannot get into the hospital because of people who refused to get a free vaccine. At some point, I can see more hospitals saying “if you won’t get the vaccine, you are on your own.”






Edit: replaced full episode video with one of just the relevant segment.


----------



## SuperMatt

Seems like the vaccine is going to be mandatory for many more Americans now. If I am reading things correctly, any company (over 100 people) that does business with the federal government will have to mandate vaccines for their workers. Federal employees will have to get vaccinated. These mandates could extend to 2/3rds of all American workers? I certainly hope so. I believe most anti-vaxxers are not opposed enough to quit their jobs. I’m already seeing many military members that were opposed going and getting the vaccine before a deadline has even been set.









						Biden is requiring the vast majority of federal workers to get vaccinated or face disciplinary measures. (Published 2021)
					

The move is part of a larger plan that officials said would cover two-thirds of all American workers.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> Seems like the vaccine is going to be mandatory for many more Americans now. If I am reading things correctly, any company (over 100 people) that does business with the federal government will have to mandate vaccines for their workers. Federal employees will have to get vaccinated. These mandates could extend to 2/3rds of all American workers? I certainly hope so. I believe most anti-vaxxers are not opposed enough to quit their jobs. I’m already seeing many military members that were opposed going and getting the vaccine before a deadline has even been set.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biden is requiring the vast majority of federal workers to get vaccinated or face disciplinary measures. (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> The move is part of a larger plan that officials said would cover two-thirds of all American workers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



Hmmm, looks like it's for any business, I don't see the "business with the federal government" part. Am I missing that somewhere? 









						The Biden administration will require employers with more than 100 employees to mandate vaccines or weekly testing
					

The administration will enforce fines up to $14,000 per violation for employers that don't implement a vaccine or weekly testing mandate.




					www.businessinsider.com
				




That aside, this is an excellent idea, if we don't act we will never get ahead of this virus.


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> Hmmm, looks like it's for any business, I don't see the "business with the federal government" part. Am I missing that somewhere?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Biden administration will require employers with more than 100 employees to mandate vaccines or weekly testing
> 
> 
> The administration will enforce fines up to $14,000 per violation for employers that don't implement a vaccine or weekly testing mandate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That aside, this is an excellent idea, if we don't act we will never get ahead of this virus.



I think I mixed 2 things up. They are separate.

1. Businesses with more than 100 people will need to get vaccinated - OSHA is the authority they are using for this.
2. Federal contractors are required to mandate vaccines for employees… this is part of the federal employee mandate.









						Biden lays out 6-pronged plan to combat COVID this fall
					

President Joe Biden is introducing a six-pronged plan to combat COVID-19 in the U.S. this fall. The plan will increase incentives and requirements to get people vaccinated, as well as deploy more testing, masking, and other measures to slow the spread of COVID-19.




					www.wcpo.com
				





> *Large employers to ensure workers are vaccinated or tested weekly*
> 
> The Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is developing a rule that will require all employers with 100 or more employees to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated or require any workers who remain unvaccinated to produce a negative test result on at least a weekly basis before coming to work. This requirement will impact over 80 million workers in private sector businesses with 100+ employees, according to the White House.
> 
> *Vaccinations required for all federal workers, contractors that do business with government*
> 
> Biden has signed executive orders to require all federal executive branch workers to be vaccinated and the standard will be extended to employees of contractors that do business with the federal government.



And they are going to mandate healthcare workers get vaccinated too, requiring It for hospitals and clinics that accept Medicaid or Medicare, which is almost all of them:



> *Vaccinations required for over 17 million health care workers at Medicare, Medicaid hospitals*
> 
> The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) is taking action to require COVID-19 vaccinations for workers in most health care settings that receive Medicare or Medicaid reimbursement, including but not limited to hospitals, dialysis facilities, ambulatory surgical settings, and home health agencies. The requirement will apply to nursing home staff as well as staff in hospitals and other CMS-regulated settings, including clinical staff, individuals providing services under arrangements, volunteers, and staff who are not involved in direct patient, resident, or client care. These requirements will apply to approximately 50,000 providers and cover a majority of health care workers across the country.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Sweeping new vaccine mandates for 100 million Americans
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — In his most forceful pandemic actions and words, President Joe Biden on Thursday ordered sweeping new federal vaccine requirements for as many as 100 million Americans — private-sector employees as well as health care workers and federal contractors — in an all-out effort to...




					apnews.com
				



I really liked this quote 


> “We’ve been patient. But our patience is wearing thin, and your refusal has cost all of us,” he said, all but biting off his words. The unvaccinated minority “can cause a lot of damage, and they are.”


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Seems like the vaccine is going to be mandatory for many more Americans now. If I am reading things correctly, any company (over 100 people) that does business with the federal government will have to mandate vaccines for their workers.




Anyone want to take a bet on the over/under for how many days until it is reversed by SCOTUS?


----------



## SuperMatt

More results from studies on vaccine effectiveness:









						Unvaccinated Americans are 11 times more likely to die of Covid, the C.D.C. reports.
					

Federal health officials released a handful of studies highlighting how effective the shots are at preventing infections, hospitalizations and deaths — even while the highly contagious Delta variant has been dominant.




					www.nytimes.com
				






> Three studies that drew data from different U.S. regions evaluated the protective power of the vaccines. One looked at more than 600,000 virus cases in 13 states, representing about one quarter of the U.S. population, between April and July, and concluded that individuals who were not fully vaccinated were far more susceptible to infection and death from the virus.
> 
> They were 4.5 times more likely than vaccinated individuals to become infected, 10 times more likely to be hospitalized, and 11 times more likely to die from the coronavirus, the study found.





> In the study of 33,000 medical encounters in nine states between June and August, the Moderna vaccine had an effectiveness rate of 92 percent against infection, compared with 77 percent for the Pfizer-BioNTech shot.


----------



## SuperMatt

Idaho now has to ration care. This is like wartime or natural disaster triage, and all of it is needless.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/16/covid-delta-variant-live-updates/
		


So what is their governor doing about it? Oh, just suing the federal government for the recent vaccine mandate…









						Idaho exploring legal action against Biden’s COVID-19 plan
					

Boise, Idaho – Governor Brad Little issued the following expanded statement today regarding President Joe Biden’s plan to fine private employers with 100 or more employees that do not mandate the COVID-19 vaccine or routine testing. “The State of Idaho is exploring legal action to stop President...




					gov.idaho.gov
				




Gotta love it that he panders to the anti-vaccine -heads with this lawsuit but then suggests that people get the vaccine in the last paragraph.

Idaho is only 40% vaccinated.


----------



## SuperMatt

This is a cool strategy to get people vaccinated:









						The Nationals Are Giving Away Free Tickets To Fans Who Get A COVID-19 Vaccine At The Stadium This Weekend
					

The tickets aren't bad either.




					dcist.com
				




Get your vaccine for free, then enjoy free 100-level seats to a Major League Baseball game!


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> This is a cool strategy to get people vaccinated:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Nationals Are Giving Away Free Tickets To Fans Who Get A COVID-19 Vaccine At The Stadium This Weekend
> 
> 
> The tickets aren't bad either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcist.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get your vaccine for free, then enjoy free 100-level seats to a Major League Baseball game!



Anything we can do to incentivize, this is awesome.


----------



## SuperMatt

Vaccines for kids under 12 could be approved very soon:









						Covid Vaccine Prompts Strong Immune Response in Younger Children, Pfizer Says
					

Vaccinated kids aged 5 to 11 showed evidence of protection against the virus, the company said. The data must be reviewed by the F.D.A. before children can be inoculated.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Alli

SuperMatt said:


> Vaccines for kids under 12 could be approved very soon:



Excellent news. Then we just have to get parents to buy into it.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Found this site to get a digital verified vaccine card you can add to Apple Wallet. Useful if your state doesn’t have a digital card system in place. (sad Ohio noises) It’s free but I tossed them a couple bucks. Only works with Apple Wallet.








						GoGetDoc - Modern Healthcare Starts Here
					

We're on a mission to make finding and using modern healthcare easy for everyone.




					www.gogetdoc.com


----------



## Alli

Runs For Fun said:


> Found this site to get a digital verified vaccine card you can add to Apple Wallet. Useful if your state doesn’t have a digital card system in place. (sad Ohio noises) It’s free but I tossed them a couple bucks. Only works with Apple Wallet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GoGetDoc - Modern Healthcare Starts Here
> 
> 
> We're on a mission to make finding and using modern healthcare easy for everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gogetdoc.com



Thanks! We’ll see if anyone accepts it.


----------



## MEJHarrison

I just read that my county, Washington County, is the first in Oregon to hit 80% on vaccination!


----------



## Eric

MEJHarrison said:


> I just read that my county, Washington County, is the first in Oregon to hit 80% on vaccination!



My old home county (Forest Grove) representing.


----------



## Pumbaa

Read a short piece about someone who finally got her first covid-jab here. The delaying culprit in this case wasn’t antivaxx sentiments,  misinformation or anything like that, but rather needle phobia.

She wanted to get vaccinated and had booked (and canceled) three appointments already before a cashier somewhere let her know about a drop-in location still open in the evening. Heartwarming to read that she went immediately and got the jab before she had time to talk herself out of it.

Glad to know that the increased availability and convenience have helped at least one person. I’m sure there are many more, and hopefully the press can help push people in the same situation to get it.


----------



## Runs For Fun

This is pretty incredible 
Merck says it has the first antiviral pill found to be effective against Covid.








						Merck says it has the first antiviral pill found to be effective against Covid.
					

The drug maker will seek authorization for molnupiravir, the first drug of its kind for Covid. Experts said such pills could be a powerful tool against the virus.




					www.nytimes.com
				




Will be interesting to see what the anti-vaxxers do.


----------



## Herdfan

Things are going to get interesting around here.

Today a Gray Television affiliate, WSAZ, fired it's long time (19 years) anchor for not getting vaccinated.  She claims she did not get the vaccine because her doctor told her not to, although the specific reason was not disclosed.  But she was beloved by her viewers and she was a fixture in the community doing charity work, hosting events and was always willing to help in any way she could.  The newscasts of this affiliate drew more viewers than the others combined.  Like I said, she was beloved.  And fired.

What is going to be interesting is that her firing has gone viral locally on FB.  You can't scroll through your newsfeed without seeing posts about it and urging people to call, write or email the station's advertisers urging them to drop their ads on this station.  I have been on FB long enough to know this has blown up bigger than any other local issue I can remember.  People are pissed.

Like I said, it is going to be interesting.  At this point she supposedly has already gotten a new job in Cleveland so they can't fix it by rescinding her termination.  I just wonder how many advertisers will drop the station.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Things are going to get interesting around here.
> 
> Today a Gray Television affiliate, WSAZ, fired it's long time (19 years) anchor for not getting vaccinated.  She claims she did not get the vaccine because her doctor told her not to, although the specific reason was not disclosed. * But she was beloved by her viewers and she was a fixture in the community doing charity work, hosting events and was always willing to help in any way she could.*  The newscasts of this affiliate drew more viewers than the others combined.  Like I said, she was beloved.  And fired.
> 
> What is going to be interesting is that her firing has gone viral locally on FB.  You can't scroll through your newsfeed without seeing posts about it and urging people to call, write or email the station's advertisers urging them to drop their ads on this station.  I have been on FB long enough to know this has blown up bigger than any other local issue I can remember.  People are pissed.
> 
> Like I said, it is going to be interesting.  At this point she supposedly has already gotten a new job in Cleveland so they can't fix it by rescinding her termination.  I just wonder how many advertisers will drop the station.



Anyone not getting the vaccine is certainly not helping any way they can, in fact they're only aiding in the spread of virus. Zero sympathy for anyone making this sort of claim, it's a crock. Get the vaccine that tens of millions of others safely have as well and it's a non-issue.

And as for WSAZ, good for them for taking a stand against the spread.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> And as for WSAZ, good for them for taking a stand against the spread.




Even if her doctor advised her not to for medical reasons?


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Even if her doctor advised her not to for medical reasons?



What doctor is that, from a church or one handing out exemptions for the cost of an office visit like we have in the central valley? Those with "actual" reasons are extremely rare and most are bogus. I mean, they give this to the oldest and sickest cancer patients and those barely hanging on to life, let's get real about these "exemptions".


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Even if her doctor advised her not to for medical reasons?



If a legitimate doctor truly advised her not to take the vaccine, she owes it to her viewers to share those details.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Things are going to get interesting around here.
> 
> Today a Gray Television affiliate, WSAZ, fired it's long time (19 years) anchor for not getting vaccinated.  She claims she did not get the vaccine because her doctor told her not to, although the specific reason was not disclosed.  But she was beloved by her viewers and she was a fixture in the community doing charity work, hosting events and was always willing to help in any way she could.  The newscasts of this affiliate drew more viewers than the others combined.  Like I said, she was beloved.  And fired.
> 
> What is going to be interesting is that her firing has gone viral locally on FB.  You can't scroll through your newsfeed without seeing posts about it and urging people to call, write or email the station's advertisers urging them to drop their ads on this station.  I have been on FB long enough to know this has blown up bigger than any other local issue I can remember.  People are pissed.
> 
> Like I said, it is going to be interesting.  At this point she supposedly has already gotten a new job in Cleveland so they can't fix it by rescinding her termination.  I just wonder how many advertisers will drop the station.




Of course a story with no confirmed details spreads like wildfire in the cesspool called Facebook. For example, I googled and found that this anchor left WSAV in 2010 for a job in Cleveland (and then went back to WV in 2012). That is probably the source for people thinking she has a 2021 job in Cleveland.

As for advertisers, I would think if anti-vaxxers are the target audience and they are changing the channel, maybe the TV station will lose a few ads from local funeral homes.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Herdfan said:


> Even if her doctor advised her not to for medical reasons?






Eric said:


> What doctor is that, from a church or one handing out exemptions for the cost of an office visit like we have in the central valley? Those with "actual" reasons are extremely rare and most are bogus. I mean, they give this to the oldest and sickest cancer patients and those barely hanging on to life, let's get real about these "exemptions".



Yeah I highly doubt a doctor told her not to get it. It’s pretty rare for a doctor to recommend not getting it. And if someone did tell her not to get it I’m sure it was one of those “doctors”. (Hint not real doctors)


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Even if her doctor advised her not to for medical reasons?



Cool story, bro 

If she's legit' contraindicated to get the vaccine she would produce a doctor's note to her employer (or multiple) to support it. If she still gets fired, she'll sue. That's the American way. Your story is just horseshit.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> What doctor is that, from a church or one handing out exemptions for the cost of an office visit like we have in the central valley? Those with "actual" reasons are extremely rare and most are bogus. I mean, they give this to the oldest and sickest cancer patients and those barely hanging on to life, let's get real about these "exemptions".




That we don't know.  The specific reason was not given, and probably never will be.  We also don't know if this doctor is telling all his/her patients to not get the vaccine.

I will say that given her history in the community, she has never seemed to be "that" person so she gets the benefit of the doubt. 

But she also got a new job VERY quickly supposedly moving from the #74 market to #19.  So maybe she did it as a way to get out of her contract.

There is just a lot we don't know, but for now she gets the BotD.

The interesting part is how much WSAZ suffers from it.  She really was a popular local celeb.


----------



## Herdfan

P_X said:


> Cool story, bro
> 
> If she's legit' contraindicated to get the vaccine she would produce a doctor's note to her employer (or multiple) to support it. If she still gets fired, she'll sue. That's the American way. Your story is just horseshit.




It's not "my" story.  It is a story that is actually happening.  No, we don't have all the facts so we will have to see if she does sue.  If she does, will you change your stance?


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> *That we don't know. * The specific reason was not given, and probably never will be.  We also don't know if this doctor is telling all his/her patients to not get the vaccine.
> 
> I will say that given her history in the community, she has never seemed to be "that" person so she gets the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> But she also got a new job VERY quickly supposedly moving from the #74 market to #19.  So maybe she did it as a way to get out of her contract.
> 
> There is just a lot we don't know, but for now she gets the BotD.
> 
> The interesting part is how much WSAZ suffers from it.  She really was a popular local celeb.



And based on not knowing you'll take her word, while bashing everyone else who is going out of their way to get it. I really wish you all would stop politicizing this thing, the only winner here is the virus.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> And based on not knowing you'll take her word, while bashing everyone else who is going out of their way to get it. I really wish you all would stop politicizing this thing, the only winner here is the virus.




No!  I am not bashing anyone.  I do wish more people would get it, but I am also not going to condemn those who don't without knowing all the reasons why.  If you think it is chipped, then you're a dumbass, but if you are acting on a doctor's advice, I am OK with that.

And yes I am taking her word.  She has earned that over time.


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> And yes I am taking her word. She has earned that over time.



What’s her word on it? Can’t find it.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> Things are going to get *interesting* around here.
> 
> What is going to be *interesting* is that her firing has gone viral locally on FB.  You can't scroll through your newsfeed without seeing posts about it and urging people to call, write or email the station's advertisers urging them to drop their ads on this station.  I have been on FB long enough to know this has blown up bigger than any other local issue I can remember.  People are pissed.
> 
> Like I said, it is going to be *interesting*.  At this point she supposedly has already gotten a new job in Cleveland so they can't fix it by rescinding her termination.  I just wonder how many advertisers will drop the station.




The "interesting" code word just cracks me up


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> Cool story, bro
> 
> If she's legit' contraindicated to get the vaccine she would produce a doctor's note to her employer (or multiple) to support it. If she still gets fired, she'll sue. That's the American way. Your story is just horseshit.




It seems like such an easy solve, and the whole notion of "I should need to explain myself" is R-speak for, "I was lying, and now I'm going to generate some manufactured anger over being called out ..."


----------



## Hrafn

DT said:


> The "interesting" code word just cracks me up



I'm not up on my lingo.  What's "interesting" code for now?


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> It seems like such an easy solve, and the whole notion of "I should need to explain myself" is R-speak for, "I was lying, and now I'm going to generate some manufactured anger over being called out ..."



The reality is they expect us to believe, while the vaccine has been proven to be safe for 6.24 billion people without any real issues, that this one person is the actual exception without any explanation.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> It's not "my" story.  It is a story that is actually happening.  No, we don't have all the facts so we will have to see if she does sue.  If she does, will you change your stance?



Your story isn’t about what is actually happening. It’s about you trying to prioritize the relevance of hypotheticals and anecdotes over rock solid data. I pointed out that it makes no sense, because the very few people with a legit medical exemption would have very specific medical histories. If those aren’t covered specifically, there’s nothing to talk about. If those are disclosed then well, you cannot do your regular fake skeptical act and move on. 

Sorry to be rude but you’ve used up your benignity credit with me.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1446137974824054792/


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> The "interesting" code word just cracks me up




Not a "code" word.  

I just wonder a couple of things:

1) Is the anger I am seeing in these posts going to translate into actual calls, email and letters to the advertisers.
1A) If it does, will the advertisers pull their ads or not?
1B) This is mostly unknowable.

2) Will the ratings drop?  Like I mentioned, this is the top rated newscast in the market.
2A) This is knowable when the Nielsen's come out.

What I will find "interesting" is if the anger on FB actual means anything.  Or is just people yelling about stuff, yet unwilling to modify their behavior or act on their anger.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Not a "code" word.
> 
> I just wonder a couple of things:
> 
> 1) Is the anger I am seeing in these posts going to translate into actual calls, email and letters to the advertisers.
> 1A) If it does, will the advertisers pull their ads or not?
> 1B) This is mostly unknowable.
> 
> 2) Will the ratings drop?  Like I mentioned, this is the top rated newscast in the market.
> 2A) This is knowable when the Nielsen's come out.
> 
> What I will find "interesting" is if the anger on FB actual means anything.  Or is just people yelling about stuff, yet unwilling to modify their behavior or act on their anger.



and here you go doing just what i grilled you for. fabricating hypotheses on a likely fabricated story rather than putting some effort into verifying it. It’s because the story is just a frame work around your confirmation bias.


----------



## Herdfan

P_X said:


> and here you go doing just what i grilled you for. fabricating hypotheses on a likely fabricated story rather than putting some effort into verifying it. It’s because the story is just a frame work around your confirmation bias.




So wondering if the rating will drop when the top rated anchor on the top rated new show leaves is confirmation bias?  

As for the "fabricated" story, she WAS fired for not getting vaccinated.  Nothing fabricated about that.  









						Legal expert: Employers have right to require vaccinations and can fire unvaxxed workers
					

CHARLESTON – The apparent firing of a popular television anchor for allegedly refusing to receive the COVID-19 vaccine has sparked social media discussion about an employer’s right to mandate the vaccine.




					wvrecord.com


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> So wondering if the rating will drop when the top rated anchor on the top rated new show leaves is confirmation bias?
> 
> As for the "fabricated" story, she WAS fired for not getting vaccinated.  Nothing fabricated about that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Legal expert: Employers have right to require vaccinations and can fire unvaxxed workers
> 
> 
> CHARLESTON – The apparent firing of a popular television anchor for allegedly refusing to receive the COVID-19 vaccine has sparked social media discussion about an employer’s right to mandate the vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wvrecord.com





Your source says “The *apparent* firing of a popular television anchor for *allegedly* refusing to receive the COVID-19 vaccine has sparked social media discussion about an employer’s right to mandate the vaccine.”

Equating apparent with actual is, lol.


----------



## JayMysteri0

P_X said:


> Your source says “The *apparent* firing of a popular television anchor for allegedly refusing to receive the COVID-19 vaccine has sparked social media discussion about an employer’s right to mandate the vaccine.”
> 
> Equating apparent with actual is, lol.



If you need to know why this is of such "apparent" importance suddenly...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1445834239077924865/

For some it may not be the person herself who is of any importance, but what she can represent for them.

That tweet can be found amongst the various tweets about the television personality & speculation about what happened.


----------



## Herdfan

P_X said:


> and here you go doing just what i grilled you for. fabricating hypotheses on a likely fabricated story rather than putting some effort into verifying it. It’s because the story is just a frame work around your confirmation bias.




Also says the Dr. who is dispensing medical facts without actually seeing the patient.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Also says the Dr. who is dispensing medical facts without actually seeing the patient.



Refresh my memory on who posted this story in the first place. With no source. With no verified facts, with nothing but rumors. And who is disrespecting an actual doctor in favor of a phantom diagnosis from an unnamed doctor that nobody has been able to produce to this point.


----------



## Roller

Let's stipulate that Amanda Barren was fired for refusal to follow her employer's vaccine mandate and did so under a physician's guidance. (I did a search and wasn't able to find a direct quote from her to that effect, as opposed to social media posts saying that's what happened.)

However, if Ms. Barren did make such a claim, as a public personality I believe she has an ethical responsibility to provide further details, since a valid medical reason for not being vaccinated would be extremely rare. I say this because she should know her statement will be used by others to refuse vaccination. 

It's also worth noting that there are many physicians, epidemiologists, and other scientists who are dead wrong on the value and/or risks of the vaccines based on the preponderance of research. America's Frontline Doctors are a case-in-point, and their advice is all the more egregious because of their profit motive.

People who are unfamiliar with or, in some cases, willfully ignorant about how medical research works like to point out that study results are sometimes frankly contradictory and that public and personal health (they aren't the same) guidance changes accordingly. But that's how it's always been.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> If you need to know why this is of such "apparent" importance suddenly...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1445834239077924865/
> 
> For some it may not be the person herself who is of any importance, but what she can represent for them.
> 
> That tweet can be found amongst the various tweets about the television personality & speculation about what happened.



"Whistle blower video", if it's the one I'm thinking about, it will only get people excited who have trouble following why vaccinations are done. (See my response to Roller).  



Herdfan said:


> Also says the Dr. who is dispensing medical facts without actually seeing the patient.



This is a good one This sentence is so disconnected from reality, I either have to force myself to interpret your reality _for_ _you_ or just keep myself perplexed. Considering the value of our interactions, I'll choose perplexed. Thank you



SuperMatt said:


> Refresh my memory on who posted this story in the first place. With no source. With no verified facts, with nothing but rumors. And who is disrespecting an actual doctor in favor of a phantom diagnosis from an unnamed doctor that nobody has been able to produce to this point.



I'm totally fine with being dissed, especially when I'm as blunt as I've been, but I sorta am offended by the persistent lack of effort in doing so.



Roller said:


> Let's stipulate that Amanda Barren was fired for refusal to follow her employer's vaccine mandate and did so under a physician's guidance. (I did a search and wasn't able to find a direct quote from her to that effect, as opposed to social media posts saying that's what happened.)
> 
> However, if Ms. Barren did make such a claim, as a public personality I believe she has an ethical responsibility to provide further details, since a valid medical reason for not being vaccinated would be extremely rare. I say this because she should know her statement will be used by others to refuse vaccination.
> 
> It's also worth noting that there are many physicians, epidemiologists, and other scientists who are dead wrong on the value and/or risks of the vaccines based on the preponderance of research. America's Frontline Doctors are a case-in-point, and their advice is all the more egregious because of their profit motive.
> 
> People who are unfamiliar with or, in some cases, willfully ignorant about how medical research works like to point out that study results are sometimes frankly contradictory and that public and personal health (they aren't the same) guidance changes accordingly. But that's how it's always been.



This reminds me of the preprint I posted here where the authors concluded that natural immunity is more protective against COVID, but the authors didn't consider that using a group of COVID survivors confers a major selection bias and if we considered that (i.e. counted COVID deaths as immunity failure in the natural COVID group), the vaccine would come out as a many times  better option than the natural infection.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> This reminds me of the preprint I posted here where the authors concluded that natural immunity is more protective against COVID, but the authors didn't consider that using a group of COVID survivors confers a major selection bias and if we considered that (i.e. counted COVID deaths as immunity failure in the natural COVID group), the vaccine would come out as a many times  better option than the natural infection.



If you exclude the people killed by the disease, you get a 0% mortality!


----------



## User.45

In a sane(r) parallel universe it would be a sort of national pride that the vaccine born out of Operation Warpspeed is _probably_ the world's best COVID vaccine to date and that it would not have been developed so expeditiously without the work of the scientists at America's crown jewel, the NIH. An institution I'm personally very proud of.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Alright!








						Pfizer asks FDA to authorize Covid vaccine for kids ages 5 to 11
					

The news couldn't come any sooner for parents anxious to get their children vaccinated against Covid-19.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Eric

Even though he was fully vaccinated, complications of COVID still got him, but he also had blood cancer that weakened his immune system, unfortunately. This disease has been especially hard on the elderly. RIP Colin.









						Colin Powell, trailblazing soldier and statesman who made case for Iraq invasion, dies of Covid at 84
					

Colin Powell, the former secretary of State and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has died from Covid complications at the age of 84.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Roller

The people at Fox News are already spinning General Powell's death as calling into question the effectiveness of the vaccines. But he was, unfortunately, a member of a highly vulnerable population. Truth is, even some healthy, young, fully vaccinated people will succumb to COVID-19, but the chance of that happening is far less likely than it is for unvaccinated individuals. It's like seat belts: They won't prevent injury or death in every accident, but they'll greatly improve your odds.

BTW, I got to attend a presentation by Powell at a conference a couple years ago. He was very impressive. RIP.


----------



## Clix Pix

Oh, no.....!!!!!!    Many years ago Alma Powell served as a volunteer a few hours a week at the branch library in which I was working as a full-time librarian.  She was a delightful person and we all enjoyed talking with her and working alongside her.   When we had library gatherings such as holiday parties at people's homes or in the branch itself, sometimes her husband, Colin, would be there, too, and he was equally as interesting and wonderful to talk with, a very thoughtful and courteous man.  We all vaguely knew that he was already high-ranking and moving upward and upward in the military but neither he nor Alma flaunted that or talked about his career.   As time went on, Alma's life became too busy and she had to leave her volunteer position at the library and the next time I ran into the two of them was when a friend's daughter was graduating from The College of William & Mary and the Powells had a young graduate in their family that year, too.    Of course, we all know that Colin Powell's life and career definitely became busier and drew nationwide attention, and we watched as he took on huge responsibilities......

I am so sad to hear about his death.   He was a lovely, gentle man......


----------



## SuperMatt

Puerto Rico is the most-vaccinated place in America. 









						The most vaccinated place in America is Puerto Rico | Boing Boing
					

The Caribbean U.S. territory of Puerto Rico has outpaced wealthy New England states to become the most vaccinated place in America: 73% of its 3.3 million residents are fully protected. The island …




					boingboing.net


----------



## Eric

It's about to get expensive for those choosing not to vaccinate.









						As Insurance Companies Stop Full Coverage for Covid-19, Rural Hospitals Brace for More Financial Burdens | The Daily Yonder
					

While rural hospitals are currently dealing with an increase in Covid-19 cases, another crisis may be looming on the horizon – how to get paid for the




					dailyyonder.com


----------



## lizkat

Or could be a Christmas present in your checking account if you do get vaxxed, at least if you work for Coca Cola, which has concerns about meeting the requirements as a federal contractor...









						Coke offers $2,000 to employees who follow new vaccination requirement
					

Coca-Cola offers employees $2,000 to get vaccinated for COVID-19 to comply with Dec. 8 mandate for federal contractors.




					www.ajc.com


----------



## Eric

My buddy's wife is in her 60s, had a kidney transplant and is refusing the vaccine as they're blaming Biden. They said her doctors (some group called 'frontline doctors' or something?) told her not to get it because she's immunocompromised which even I know is completely ridiculous.

So they got a "rescue pack" that is apparently a cocktail of vitamins that YouTube and social media have blocked because big pharma is pulling their strings. He was telling me this as they were on their way into a sold out movie, I just don't even know what to say to something like that.


----------



## Joe

Eric said:


> My buddy's wife is in her 60s, had a kidney transplant and is refusing the vaccine as they're blaming Biden. They said her doctors (some group called 'frontline doctors' or something?) told her not to get it because she's immunocompromised which even I know is completely ridiculous.
> 
> So they got a "rescue pack" that is apparently a cocktail of vitamins that YouTube and social media have blocked because big pharma is pulling their strings. He was telling me this as they were on their way into a sold out movie, I just don't even know what to say to something like that.




You just say "Thoughts and Prayers" and move on with your life.


----------



## User.45

JagRunner said:


> You just say "Thoughts and Prayers" and move on with your life.



exactly. 


Eric said:


> My buddy's wife is in her 60s, had a kidney transplant and is refusing the vaccine as they're blaming Biden. They said her doctors (some group called 'frontline doctors' or something?) told her not to get it because she's immunocompromised which even I know is completely ridiculous.
> 
> So they got a "rescue pack" that is apparently a cocktail of vitamins that YouTube and social media have blocked because big pharma is pulling their strings. He was telling me this as they were on their way into a sold out movie, I just don't even know what to say to something like that.



fixing for her #HermanCaineAward.

Can you get more information regarding their interaction with Frontline Doctors of America?
Depending on how this went down, it's reportable...
I'll say, there's a neurologist, a psychiatrist, an an explicitly antivaxxer orthopedic surgeon, a non-board certified internist, and a non-existent infectious diseases doc. Dream team. 

https://americasfrontlinedoctors5.com/authors/https://americasfrontlinedoctors5.com/authors/


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> exactly.
> 
> fixing for her #HermanCaineAward.
> 
> Can you get more information regarding their interaction with Frontline Doctors of America?
> Depending on how this went down, it's reportable...
> I'll say, there's a neurologist, a psychiatrist, an an explicitly antivaxxer orthopedic surgeon, a non-board certified internist, and a non-existent infectious diseases doc. Dream team.
> 
> https://americasfrontlinedoctors5.com/authors/https://americasfrontlinedoctors5.com/authors/



The topic is too toxic for them and I had to really struggle to get them to change the subject, these people are so angry and I'll never understand it.

However, they mentioned that whoever this group is, they were shut down by the government and they were angry about that, blaming the CDC and big pharma. I tried to objectively explain the importance of peer reviewed data, their contention is that "some people on the internet figured out how to prevent and cure it with vitamins and herbs but there's a conspiracy to shut them down" type of thing. There's simply no reasoning with them.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> The topic is too toxic for them and I had to really struggle to get them to change the subject, these people are so angry and I'll never understand it.
> 
> However, they mentioned that whoever this group is, they were shut down by the government and they were angry about that, blaming the CDC and big pharma. I tried to objectively explain the importance of peer reviewed data, their contention is that "some people on the internet figured out how to prevent and cure it with vitamins and herbs but there's a conspiracy to shut them down" type of thing. There's simply no reasoning with them.



You ask them how much the vitamins cost and how much would it have been to purchase those from the local pharmacy and you generally get the answer.


----------



## SuperMatt

Vaccinate your kids!









						FDA approves Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine for five to 11-year-olds | Boing Boing
					

The US Food and Drug Administration has just issued an emergency use authorization to administer the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine to children five to 11 years-old. From CNN: Pfizer says a clinical trial…




					boingboing.net


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> My buddy's wife is in her 60s, had a kidney transplant and is refusing the vaccine as they're blaming Biden. They said her doctors (some group called 'frontline doctors' or something?) told her not to get it because she's immunocompromised which even I know is completely ridiculous.
> 
> So they got a "rescue pack" that is apparently a cocktail of vitamins that YouTube and social media have blocked because big pharma is pulling their strings. He was telling me this as they were on their way into a sold out movie, I just don't even know what to say to something like that.




The so-called "frontline doctors" are getting some pushback now, but not from the likes of the Georgia Medical Board, which so far appears to shrug off complaints about MDs in that state spreading bad info about covid.



			https://www.ajc.com/news/coronavirus/georgias-medical-board-mum-as-doctors-spread-covid-19-misinformation
		




> “We know that disinformation is killing people,” said Taylor Nichols, an emergency medicine physician in Sacramento, Calif., and one of the founders of No License for Disinformation, a coalition pushing licensing boards to discipline doctors who fly off the rails of accepted science. “When physicians, when credentialed folks, are the ones spreading the disinformation, that bad information becomes more sticky. It becomes harder to push back against.”






> But in Georgia, doctors have been free to spread baseless assertions to the public with impunity. While Public Health Commissioner Kathleen Toomey has expressed frustration with rampant misinformation, the agency that regulates doctors, the Georgia Composite Medical Board, hasn’t issued any public statements or guidance to physicians to counter misinformation or disinformation, much less handed out any discipline.


----------



## User.45

Who Had Covid-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases? (Published 2021)
					

Data shows the vaccines kept working through the Delta surge, though some groups were at higher risk of breakthrough infections or death.



					www.nytimes.com
				





Data from NYT (sourced from CDC). The June dip is followed by Delta taking over:


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> Who Had Covid-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases? (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> Data shows the vaccines kept working through the Delta surge, though some groups were at higher risk of breakthrough infections or death.
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data from NYT (sourced from CDC). The June dip is followed by Delta taking over:
> 
> View attachment 9567
> 
> View attachment 9568



Excellent info, thanks for sharing.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> Excellent info, thanks for sharing.



It's very very impressive.


----------



## Eric

My work is requiring either vaccination or a negative test days before meeting with clients now, I'm happy to show my status where ever required.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> My work is requiring either vaccination or a negative test days before meeting with clients now, I'm happy to show my status where ever required.



For sure. The Germans did it well. They provided free COVID testing on return to work, and once the vaccines got full approval, it became a fee-for-service so people who refused the shot had to still provide safety info but pay for it out of their own pockets.


----------



## SuperMatt

There might be a pill for treating COVID-19 available soon. But it’s* far more expensive *than just getting the vaccine, and the vaccine is more effective. This pill seems aimed at keeping people with the disease out of hospitals.



> The U.S. has agreed to pay roughly *$700 per course* of the drug for about 1.7 million treatments. Merck says it plans to use a tiered pricing strategy for developing countries. A review by Harvard University and King's College London estimated the drug *costs about $18 to make *each 40-pill course of treatment.



Citizens of Earth, don’t you just love your pharmaceutical companies?









						UK authorizes Merck antiviral pill, 1st shown to treat COVID
					

Britain has granted a conditional authorization to Merck’s coronavirus antiviral




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> There might be a pill for treating COVID-19 available soon. But it’s* far more expensive *than just getting the vaccine, and the vaccine is more effective. This pill seems aimed at keeping people with the disease out of hospitals.
> 
> 
> Citizens of Earth, don’t you just love your pharmaceutical companies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK authorizes Merck antiviral pill, 1st shown to treat COVID
> 
> 
> Britain has granted a conditional authorization to Merck’s coronavirus antiviral
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com



They are pricing this to compete with regeneron. Besides my regular big pharma grievances, it's actually a major breakthrough to have a major oral antiviral pill for any indication. Pre COVID it was mainly oseltamivir, that you had to take in the first 48H of symptom development to shorten Flu's duration by a day or two. This is actually the major breakthrough most people hoped for (some expected) in 2020. Got here too late to make that bang, but on the long run, this is the major breakthrough.


----------



## hulugu

Herdfan said:


> ...
> Just a feeling actually.  Like him refusing to use the term "radical Islamic terrorist" or continually referring to ISIS as ISIL when even the liberal media used those terms.




The fact that people think that "radical Islamic terrorist" was a meaningful or particular useful term is entirely a sign of how right-wing propaganda  works. Similarly, there was a significant argument among State Department officials and the CIA about whether to call Daesh, ISIS or ISIL. 

Why? Because ISIS means the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, while ISIL was the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Now there's also ISIS-K and IS. 

Obama settled on ISIL because that seemed most accurate. The fact that you think there's a difference from the White House is its treatment of ISIS based on what Obama called them in public speeches just indicates that you care more about symbolism than reality. 

And, that's where we keep coming to. You care about your perceptions and your feelings based often on right-wing agitprop designed to gin you up against Democrats. 



Herdfan said:


> You call them Trumper's, I call them Parents.  Parents tend to ignore politics when it comes to their kids and what they think is best for them.  I would guess many of those Louden County parents creating a ruckus voted for Biden.  No proof, but where they live is a good indicator that not all are conservative nutjobs.
> 
> I mean when a kid gets raped at school and the BOE covers it up, then the school board gets what they deserve.




Parents don't ignore politics. Go look up the fight over Brown v. Board of Education, or school busing, or the fights over books from the 80s. Parents are constantly bringing nonsense culture wars into schools, and CRT is just a new version of the terror about books with bad words, drug use, or sex. Hell, look at the 90s when parents panicked about school programs that gave out condoms. 

Further, the whole Lounden County incident just illustrates that the right is fundamentally disinterested in complex realities, and prefers its own fantasies and grievances. 

Meanwhile, the fact that a counselor had an "inappropriate relationship" with a student in the same district won't be grist for the right-wing mill.


----------



## User.45

hulugu said:


> The fact that people think that "radical Islamic terrorist" was a meaningful or particular useful term is entirely a sign of how right-wing propaganda  works. Similarly, there was a significant argument among State Department officials and the CIA about whether to call Daesh, ISIS or ISIL.
> 
> Why? Because ISIS means the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, while ISIL was the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Now there's also ISIS-K and IS.
> 
> Obama settled on ISIL because that seemed most accurate. The fact that you think there's a difference from the White House is its treatment of ISIS based on what Obama called them in public speeches just indicates that you care more about symbolism than reality.
> 
> And, that's where we keep coming to. You care about your perceptions and your feelings based often on right-wing agitprop designed to gin you up against Democrats.




This is the guy who was upset to learn we think he’s a racist. This is why. It’s common sense that this verbiage unfairly labels a huge population of people, and it’s not about being PC. It’s about being fair so you don’t have negative impacts on the day to day interactions of people who look middle eastern or have islamic names. 





hulugu said:


> Parents don't ignore politics. Go look up the fight over Brown v. Board of Education, or school busing, or the fights over books from the 80s. Parents are constantly bringing nonsense culture wars into schools, and CRT is just a new version of the terror about books with bad words, drug use, or sex. Hell, look at the 90s when parents panicked about school programs that gave out condoms.
> 
> Further, the whole Lounden County incident just illustrates that the right is fundamentally disinterested in complex realities, and prefers its own fantasies and grievances.
> 
> Meanwhile, the fact that a counselor had an "inappropriate relationship" with a student in the same district won't be grist for the right-wing mill.



This reminds me of a small Eastern European country where an ambassador was busted with child abuse material that culminated Into a multiparty push for a sex offender registry that got hijacked by the ruling party (same that assigned above ambassador) and then mutated it into  an anti LGBTQ law “for the protection of children”.


----------



## Roller

P_X said:


> They are pricing this to compete with regeneron. Besides my regular big pharma grievances, it's actually a major breakthrough to have a major oral antiviral pill for any indication. Pre COVID it was mainly oseltamivir, that you had to take in the first 48H of symptom development to shorten Flu's duration by a day or two. This is actually the major breakthrough most people hoped for (some expected) in 2020. Got here too late to make that bang, but on the long run, this is the major breakthrough.



Pfizer's announcement today that their antiviral, PAXLOVID, reduced hospitalization or death compared to placebo in a phase II/III trial is even more promising. I expect we will have even more options by this time next year. However, the cost for these treatments will all likely be higher than for vaccines, and it's still better not to get infected at all.

What's crazy is that people and governments that were and remain against vaccine mandates because they claim vaccines are too new flock to therapies like monoclonal antibodies.


----------



## Herdfan

P_X said:


> This is the guy who was upset to learn we think he’s a racist. This is why. It’s common sense that this verbiage unfairly labels a huge population of people, and it’s not about being PC. It’s about being fair so you don’t have negative impacts on the day to day interactions of people who look middle eastern or have islamic names.




Seriously, how is that any different that labeling anyone who voted for Trump a racist? 

And I just found out that a white person who votes for a Black person is also racist.  Who knew?


----------



## User.45

Roller said:


> Pfizer's announcement today that their antiviral, PAXLOVID, reduced hospitalization or death compared to placebo in a phase II/III trial is even more promising. I expect we will have even more options by this time next year. However, the cost for these treatments will all likely be higher than for vaccines, and it's still better not to get infected at all.



Agree. I have yet to review the data on both, but not too excited about the short term implications. The vaccines are insanely cost-effective. Even cheaper than buying masks for a year.



Roller said:


> What's crazy is that people and governments that were and remain against vaccine mandates because they claim vaccines are too new flock to therapies like monoclonal antibodies.



I can't wrap my head around the cognitive dissonance of people who interrogate preprints to learn about obscure vaccine complications but concurrently overlook way more prevalent drug side effects and non-fatal complications of COVID. Insane.


----------



## Roller

P_X said:


> I can't wrap my head around the cognitive dissonance of people who interrogate preprints to learn about obscure vaccine complications but concurrently overlook way more prevalent drug side effects and non-fatal complications of COVID. Insane.



I'm not certain that any cognition is involved here. I'd bet very few people who rant about the vaccines' risks gave any serious consideration to the pros and cons of other medications or vaccines they were prescribed in the past. That's just one reason I believe the pandemic has done irreparable harm to the healthcare professions. Not that some degree of skepticism is bad — I think it's good when patients ask questions, seek other opinions, and consider alternatives — but the irrationality we've seen is incredibly demoralizing, especially for practitioners in intensive care, who are tired of seeing people die needlessly.


----------



## User.45

Roller said:


> I'm not certain that any cognition is involved here. I'd bet very few people who rant about the vaccines' risks gave any serious consideration to the pros and cons of other medications or vaccines they were prescribed in the past.



The braindead morons fly under my radar, but there's a group, the pseudointellectual engineer type who  work hard rationalizing their insanity. That is the type that puzzles me. 

It's like the flu shot. Just got mine today, and this was the first one in 5 years that didn't give me low-grade fevers and chills. Some of the newly antivaxx healthcare workers wither never got their flu shots, or forgot to worry about the inconveniences associated with it.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> The braindead morons fly under my radar, but there's a group, the pseudointellectual engineer type who  work hard rationalizing their insanity. That is the type that puzzles me.
> 
> It's like the flu shot. Just got mine today, and this was the first one in 5 years that didn't give me low-grade fevers and chills. Some of the newly antivaxx healthcare workers wither never got their flu shots, or forgot to worry about the inconveniences associated with it.



The pseudo-intellectual engineer type are often good at engineering, and therefore assume they know everything, or that everything in life is an engineering problem, including fields they know nothing about: For example: personal relationships….


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> The pseudo-intellectual engineer type are often good at engineering, and therefore assume they know everything, or that everything in life is an engineering problem, including fields they know nothing about: For example: personal relationships….



I don't know if this type is good at their job. I do know that they aren't good at mine... and I'm coming from a family of engineers.


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> The pseudo-intellectual engineer type are often good at engineering, and therefore assume they know everything, or that everything in life is an engineering problem, including fields they know nothing about: For example: personal relationships….




I've found people who are creative, that have a good sense of humor, etc., the kind of personalities/psychological makeup you might not think of as the "engineering type", often make MUCH better engineers, they tend to think quick, be super adaptive, come up with solutions that are way outside the box - plus, you might actually want to be in the same room as them ...


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> I've found people who are creative, that have a good sense of humor, etc., the kind of personalities/psychological makeup you might not think of as the "engineering type", often make MUCH better engineers, they tend to think quick, be super adaptive, come up with solutions that are way outside the box - plus, you might actually want to be in the same room as them ...



There's a reason why "social intelligence" is key for success. It's not enough to be smart, you have to be able to convince people to listen to you. It really takes a super exceptional person to bypass their lack of social skills purely with expertise. I know maybe 2-3 such people in total.


----------



## Herdfan

Can't believe this isn't being discussed:





__





						Federal appeals court halts Biden administration’s vaccine requirement, delivering policy a major blow
					





					www.msn.com
				




Granted only applies to the 5th Circuit legally, but other District Judges/Circuits can use it as a basis for their decisions.

Edit:  Not sure why it is treating the link that way.  It is a MSN link to a WP story about Biden's Vaccine Mandate being halted by the courts.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Can't believe this isn't being discussed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Federal appeals court halts Biden administration’s vaccine requirement, delivering policy a major blow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Granted only applies to the 5th Circuit legally, but other District Judges/Circuits can use it as a basis for their decisions.
> 
> Edit:  Not sure why it is treating the link that way.  It is a MSN link to a WP story about Biden's Vaccine Mandate being halted by the courts.



Things like this just leave me with no words. They use this argument



> “The Mandate imposes a financial burden upon them by deputizing their participation in OSHA’s regulatory scheme, exposes them to severe financial risk if they refuse or fail to comply, and threatens to decimate their workforces (and business prospects) by forcing unwilling employees to take their shots, take their tests, or hit the road,” they wrote.



which is basically the way Texas went around law to ban abortion. So if they can’t deputize participants here, why can they do it there?


----------



## SuperMatt

Alli said:


> Things like this just leave me with no words. They use this argument
> 
> 
> which is basically the way Texas went around law to ban abortion. So if they can’t deputize participants here, why can they do it there?



And the way they wrote it, if they really are being honest, they are calling for OSHA to be shut down completely. Why is it the vaccine requirement specifically that they think is onerous? It’s one of the least time-consuming or productivity-affecting things OSHA does. There are many jobs that could be done faster if they could cut corners on safety, but the court doesn’t have a problem with OSHA regulating that kind of thing. The courts are not ruling on the substance, but on the negative political climate surrounding COVID-19, created by Trump when he was in office.

In another thread I pointed out multiple court decisions that are terrible, such as refusing to put a stay on the Texas abortion ban (which has NO expection for RAPE, by the way) while giving Trump infinite stays on LEGAL requests for PUBLIC documents because of a nonsense claim of executive privilege for a past president that is not supported by the current one. It is the office of the President, not the office of the person in the job at any one point in time.

So just toss this garbage ruling on the pile with the others.


----------



## Eric

My sister said she's not having a family Christmas gathering this year because she's not sure if everyone is vaccinated or not and doesn't want to ask, I told her she should just ask and require it, if you don't like it, don't come. I have no compunctions asking anyone I'm going to be in close quarters with whether or not they have been vaccinated, if not I will not do anything with them at all unless something changes and makes it safer.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Eric said:


> My sister said she's not having a family Christmas gathering this year because she's not sure if everyone is vaccinated or not and doesn't want to ask, I told her she should just ask and require it, if you don't like it, don't come. I have no compunctions asking anyone I'm going to be in close quarters with whether or not they have been vaccinated, if not I will not do anything with them at all unless something changes and makes it safer.




I wouldn't go to my sister's house this year because she's one of the people in the family I'd be concerned about.  I know she's been vaccinated.  But last I heard, she didn't want it and only got it to keep her job.  Earlier this year, her unvaccinated husband passed it on to my unvaccinated mother and step-father.  So there won't be any big family gatherings this year.  Not with my family at any rate.  In a bizarre twist of fate, somehow my brother is the only other sane person in the family.  It's a crazy world.


----------



## SuperMatt

More cold water dumped on the “lab leak” hypothesis for COVID-19’s origin.









						U.S. scientist says he's found the real COVID patient zero, and "strong evidence" pandemic started at animal market
					

Virologist Michael Worobey was among those who pushed for consideration of a lab leak, but he says further analysis makes that origin theory "very difficult to explain."




					www.cbsnews.com
				




This was from a scientist that had previously thought it might be a lab leak. Because he’s an actual scientist, he collected and analyzed more data and came to a different conclusion.



> "In this city of 11 million people, half of the early cases are linked to a place that's the size of a soccer field," Worobey told the New York Times. "It becomes very difficult to explain that pattern if the outbreak didn't start at the market."




Why did people think it might have been a lab leak? Because the “first” case was believed to be Dec 8, but they later found out that person wasn’t infected until the 16th.



> Another criticism of the theory was based on the fact that the first case identified was unrelated to the market.
> 
> But while the WHO report claimed the man originally identified as patient zero had been ill from December 8, he actually was not sick until December 16, according to Worobey.
> 
> That deduction was based on a video interview he found, from a case described in a scientific article and from a hospital medical record that matched the 41-year-old man.
> 
> That would mean the first reported case would be the woman who worked in the market, who fell ill on December 11.
> 
> 
> Peter Daszak, a disease expert who was on the WHO investigation team, said he was convinced by Worobey's analysis.
> 
> "That December 8 date was a mistake," he told the Times.




All evidence so far is pointing to a naturally-occurring virus first infecting humans on Dec 11 at a Wuhan fish market.


----------



## Runs For Fun

FDA approves booster for everyone 18 and older!








						Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: FDA Expands Eligibility for COVID-19 Vaccine Boosters
					

The FDA authorized the use of a single booster dose of both the Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccines for all individuals 18 years of age and older.




					www.fda.gov


----------



## Clix Pix

Glad I've already had my booster and can avoid the crowds....


----------



## Yoused

SuperMatt said:


> such as refusing to put a stay on the Texas abortion ban (which has NO expection for RAPE, by the way)



Well, I thought you knew. Abbott told everyone that there is no need for an exception, because they are going to put an end to rape. The guy who has been Governor for nearly 7 years and was the state AG for the 13 years before that has decided at last to end rape. Which must mean they are just going to remove the law against it?


----------



## Herdfan

Cured???



			Germans will be ‘vaccinated, cured or dead’, says minister
		


What cure?  Is something lost in the translation?  Or are they considering those who have had and survived "cured"?


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> Cured???
> 
> 
> 
> Germans will be ‘vaccinated, cured or dead’, says minister
> 
> 
> 
> What cure?  Is something lost in the translation?  Or are they considering those who have had and survived "cured"?



Botched translation as far as I can tell.

The german text I found used a word that should be translated as “recovered” rather than “cured”. Not digging further.


----------



## Eric

Pumbaa said:


> Botched translation as far as I can tell.
> 
> The german text I found used a word that should be translated as “recovered” rather than “cured”. Not digging further.



This seems to be an accurate statement for the most part, I don't know of anyone unvaccinated who didn't get it, in fact I also know those who had breakthroughs as well. But in the end it seems there's no way the virus doesn't impact you in one way or the other.


----------



## Pumbaa

Eric said:


> This seems to be an accurate statement for the most part, I don't know of anyone unvaccinated who didn't get it, in fact I also know those who had breakthroughs as well. But in the end it seems there's no way the virus doesn't impact you in one way or the other.



Yes. He basically said that they urgently recommend vaccination because the virus is very contagious. Very sinister.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> This seems to be an accurate statement for the most part, I don't know of anyone unvaccinated who didn't get it, in fact I also know those who had breakthroughs as well. But in the end it seems there's no way the virus doesn't impact you in one way or the other.



Yes, the pandemic will eventually end/subside once everyone is exposed to the virus one way or another. It's just 10x better to get exposed artificially through vaccines.


----------



## hulugu

Herdfan said:


> Cured???
> 
> 
> 
> Germans will be ‘vaccinated, cured or dead’, says minister
> 
> 
> 
> What cure?  Is something lost in the translation?  Or are they considering those who have had and survived "cured"?




*Sinister German accent* 

"Either you will be vaccinated." 

 *Picks up absurdly large stainless steel surgical tool* 

"Cured." 

*Dramatic pause—sweat beads on the hero's forehead.* 

"Or dead! That is up to you. Mawhahahaha."

*Main villain leaves room so dumbass henchmen can botch the procedure, allowing hero to dramatically escape*


----------



## Huntn

Fascinating report on NPR, 2nd Generation COVID vaccines are being developed to be administered as a nose spray and possibly a pill, that not only triggers the immune system but goes after the virus factory directly and is being designed as long lasting.

Is this short lived nature a function of mutating viruses alone? Yet I’ve heard nothing beyond the delta variant.








						Study Finds People Have Short-Lived Immunity to Seasonal Coronaviruses
					

A key metric in seeking to end the COVID-19 pandemic is the likely duration of acquired immunity, or how long people previously infected with the responsible SARS-CoV-2 virus will be protected agai…




					directorsblog.nih.gov


----------



## Runs For Fun

So there’s been a bit of an explosion of stories on this new variant in the last several hours. It would appear this one is quite concerning 








						Omicron: How worried should we be?
					

Scientists are closely watching a new variant - but there are few clear answers.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## fooferdoggie

wife got sick from our grandkid and work wanted her to take a covid test. but she is blind and going anywhere for it is a pain. but bought a kit from amazon with same day delivery and and it was pretty easy the app waked you through it with videos and timers to show you exactly how to do it.


----------



## Eric

fooferdoggie said:


> wife got sick from our grandkid and work wanted her to take a covid test. but she is blind and going anywhere for it is a pain. but bought a kit from amazon with same day delivery and and it was pretty easy the app waked you through it with videos and timers to show you exactly how to do it.



Hope she's doing okay, let us know how it turns out.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> Hope she's doing okay, let us know how it turns out.



the test was negative. she will get over it. well my wife will and grand kid and daughter. me I only got it a little bit lucky since I have to work.


----------



## Eric

Runs For Fun said:


> So there’s been a bit of an explosion of stories on this new variant in the last several hours. It would appear this one is quite concerning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron: How worried should we be?
> 
> 
> Scientists are closely watching a new variant - but there are few clear answers.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com



This isn't looking good 









						South Africa to be put on England’s travel red list over new Covid variant
					

Flights from six countries will be banned as officials review travel measures after scientists voice concern over variant




					www.theguardian.com
				




https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1463956686075580421/


----------



## Huntn

fooferdoggie said:


> the test was negative. she will get over it. well my wife will and grand kid and daughter. me I only got it a little bit lucky since I have to work.



My wife was going in for a sleep study and the hospital required she get a COVID test. The hospital is twenty miles away and she asked if she could get it done somewhere else close by. They said no, they had to do it which says to me they don’t trust the honor system, or other medical  entities such as a local Urgent Care.


----------



## Huntn

Eric said:


> This isn't looking good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> South Africa to be put on England’s travel red list over new Covid variant
> 
> 
> Flights from six countries will be banned as officials review travel measures after scientists voice concern over variant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1463956686075580421/



Are the current vaccines effective against this variant?

Isn’t it interesting how before COVID we seemed to be in a state of relative virus stability, and now it seems like this situation, just won’t go away. How long before the next new bug assaults the species?


----------



## Eric

Huntn said:


> My wife was going in for a sleep study and the hospital required she get a COVID test. The hospital is twenty miles away and she asked if she could get it done somewhere else close by. They said no, they had to do it which says to me they don’t trust the honor system, or other medical  entities such as a local Urgent Care.



They wanted me to come in for my annual pulmonary function test and had the same requirement, everyone must have a properly sanctioned negative test, regardless of vaccination status. I chose to skip this year because my breathing really hasn't changed enough to warrant the test but I don't blame them at all, if I ever need to go in it's comforting to know they're taking it so seriously.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Huntn said:


> My wife was going in for a sleep study and the hospital required she get a COVID test. The hospital is twenty miles away and she asked if she could get it done somewhere else close by. They said no, they had to do it which says to me they don’t trust the honor system, or other medical  entities such as a local Urgent Care.



her work wanted her to take it. we knew it was not covid. Get a kick out of it Asher box is antivaxx and caught covid and brought t to work.


----------



## Eric

Huntn said:


> Are the current vaccines effective against this variant?
> 
> Isn’t it interesting how before COVID we seemed to be in a state of relative virus stability, and now it seems like this situation, just won’t go away. How long before the next new bug assaults the species?



It sounds like they're not sure at this point because the variants appear to be all over the map, hopefully we'll know more in a couple of more weeks but it sounds alarming.

I think as long as we have such a large portion of the population unwilling to vaccinate that this problem won't go away, all it does is allow the virus to mutate and spread when we don't contain it in its current state. Wish more people would listen to the science.


----------



## Nycturne

Huntn said:


> Are the current vaccines effective against this variant?
> 
> Isn’t it interesting how before COVID we seemed to be in a state of relative virus stability, and now it seems like this situation, just won’t go away. How long before the next new bug assaults the species?




Two things to keep in mind:

1) Humanity’s ability to track virus strains like this is relatively recent. So we’re able to see a novel virus adapting to a new host in real time across a global human population for the first time.
2) This isn’t the first time these sort of adaptive mutatations happened in the context of a global pandemic. 

An example is that the 1918 pandemic‘s lethality during the second wave was likely enabled by mutations after the first wave. It wasn’t like Influenza was a new disease at that point. We just got introduced to a strain that hadn’t circulated widely in humans which happened to have a couple really nasty adaptations already, and then picked up a couple more as it spread among humans.

That 1918 pandemic took two years to subside. Many influenza pandemics do, like the 1956-1958 influenza pandemic that killed 2 million. The HIV pandemic itself is considered to run from 2005-2012, and has killed 35 million, despite being a virus we knew about (and basically failed to act on) in the 80s. So this pandemic isn’t even an outlier, to be honest. For it being a novel virus that only recently jumped to humans, especially.



Eric said:


> It sounds like they're not sure at this point because the variants appear to be all over the map, hopefully we'll know more in a couple of more weeks but it sounds alarming.
> 
> I think as long as we have such a large portion of the population unwilling to vaccinate that this problem won't go away, all it does is allow the virus to mutate and spread when we don't contain it in its current state. Wish more people would listen to the science.




Exactly. While we can see a new strain popping up, and that it is out competing the old strain, we don’t yet know what that means in the long run: How much more contagious is it? How serious is the infection itself with these changes? How effectively does it bypass current vaccine protections? 

So far, we’ve been lucky in that it’s mostly been more contagious, with minor capacity to bypass the existing vaccine. But the concern is that there’s no reason to believe it will hold true for every random mutation the virus could undergo. And a truly novel virus in a population that can’t defend against it all that well means a lot of opportunities to mutate. 

Yeah, a good vaccination drive was our first real opening at shutting this down quickly, and bringing it under control such that it could be managed like Influenza currently is. Unfortunately, we botched that up, so we’re having to “go the long way around” to that sort of management. Wouldn’t be the first time, either.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Eric said:


> This isn't looking good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> South Africa to be put on England’s travel red list over new Covid variant
> 
> 
> Flights from six countries will be banned as officials review travel measures after scientists voice concern over variant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1463956686075580421/



Holy shit that graph.


----------



## Eric

And here we go...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1464310711874641927/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1464313006335143941/


----------



## Roller

Runs For Fun said:


> Holy shit that graph.



A few things to keep in mind about the omicron variant:

Early data are always noisy, and it will take a lot of testing and sequencing to determine if omicron is transmitted more readily. It's also challenging to control for many other variables, including vaccination type and status (if any), age, living conditions, and so on.
As with the original strain and other variants, the fact that omicron has been seen in a few other countries almost certainly means that it is already in the U.S. and elsewhere. Travel bans will do little to mitigate spread in the long run. 
Determining whether omicron can evade immunity conferred by prior infection or vaccination will take time, though we should have some idea in the next few weeks.
Vaccine manufacturers like Pfizer/BioNTech are already working on this by doing clinical trials of other variants (alpha and delta). They claim they can release a vaccine more closely tailored to omicron in 100 days. Regulatory approval will also come into play.
If anything, the need for full administration of existing vaccines, even if they are less effective against omicron, is greater than before. So, too, is the importance for measures like masking and other NPIs. 
This further bolsters the argument that COVID-19 is a worldwide problem that will only be effectively addressed by making vaccines available at low cost everywhere. It's not something the first world can isolate itself from. The world should treat this as a problem that transcends geographic and political boundaries, but the experience with other global issues like climate change isn't comforting in this regard.


----------



## Eric

The CDC said they think we should wait for more information before banning flights, this is one time I disagree with them, by the time they say “oh shit this is bad” it’ll be everywhere, glad Biden is acting immediately on this. Best case, we overreacted and people couldn't travel for a month or two, worst case, we have an untreatable variant taking us back to square one.


----------



## Edd

Eric said:


> The CDC said they think we should wait for more information before banning flights, this is one time I disagree with them, by the time they say “oh shit this is bad” it’ll be everywhere, glad Biden is acting immediately on this. Best case, we overreacted and people couldn't travel for a month or two, worst case, we have an untreatable variant taking us back to square one.



I assume we will fail to keep it out but slowing it down seems worth a try.


----------



## User.45

Roller said:


> A few things to keep in mind about the omicron variant:
> 
> *Early data are always noisy,* and it will take a lot of testing and sequencing to determine if omicron is transmitted more readily. It's also challenging to control for many other variables, including vaccination type and status (if any), age, living conditions, and so on.
> As with the original strain and other variants, the fact that omicron has been seen in a few other countries almost certainly means that it is already in the U.S. and elsewhere. Travel bans will do little to mitigate spread in the long run.
> Determining whether omicron can evade immunity conferred by prior infection or vaccination will take time, though we should have some idea in the next few weeks.
> Vaccine manufacturers like Pfizer/BioNTech are already working on this by doing clinical trials of other variants (alpha and delta). They claim they can release a vaccine more closely tailored to omicron in 100 days. Regulatory approval will also come into play.
> If anything, the need for full administration of existing vaccines, even if they are less effective against omicron, is greater than before. So, too, is the importance for measures like masking and other NPIs.
> This further bolsters the argument that COVID-19 is a worldwide problem that will only be effectively addressed by making vaccines available at low cost everywhere. It's not something the first world can isolate itself from. The world should treat this as a problem that transcends geographic and political boundaries, but the experience with other global issues like climate change isn't comforting in this regard.



This 100%. Saved me a post, thank you! It took about 4-5 months to get high-quality data on Delta so expect nothing different for other new variants. Sometimes it's just better to wait for the data to mature.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1464995118130339841/


----------



## Joe

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1464995118130339841/




They shouldn’t get one.


----------



## Clix Pix

I agree -- they have given up their "right" to have a lung transplant (and in addition, in my opinion, any treatment in the ICU as well) by refusing to be vaccinated.


----------



## ronntaylor

Roller said:


> 6. This further bolsters the argument that COVID-19 is a worldwide problem that will only be effectively addressed by making vaccines available at low cost everywhere. It's not something the first world can isolate itself from. *The world should treat this as a problem that transcends geographic and political boundaries*, but the experience with other global issues like climate change isn't comforting in this regard.




The Omicron variant is probably already in the United States. Just hasn't been properly diagnosed yet. Same as the Delta variant in its earlier stages.









						As Omicron Variant Circles the Globe, African Nations Face Blame and Bans
					

With countries trying to close their doors to the new coronavirus variant, southern African officials note that the West’s hoarding of vaccines helped create their struggle in the first place.




					www.nytimes.com
				






> _The cascade of travel closures triggered a wave of resentment among Africans who believed that the continent was yet again bearing the brunt of panicked policies from Western countries, which had failed to deliver vaccines and the resources needed to administer them.
> 
> Richer countries, having already hoarded vaccines for much of 2021, were now penalizing parts of the world that they had starved of shots in the first place, scientists said.
> 
> “Told you so,” said Francois Venter, a researcher at University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, referring to *warnings from African researchers that delaying vaccinations there risked the emergence of new variants.* *“It feels like these rich countries have learned absolutely nothing in terms of support.”*_


----------



## User.45

JagRunner said:


> They shouldn’t get one.





Clix Pix said:


> I agree -- they have given up their "right" to have a lung transplant (and in addition, in my opinion, any treatment in the ICU as well) by refusing to be vaccinated.



Luckily, medical ethics aren't that black-and-white. Someone becoming a candidate for a lung transplant AFTER getting COVID they weren't vaccinated for is NOT an absolute contraindication to transplant and it should not be. Should they be prioritized lower if there's a comparabe need by compliant patients? Probably yes.


----------



## SuperMatt

ronntaylor said:


> The Omicron variant is probably already in the United States. Just hasn't been properly diagnosed yet. Same as the Delta variant in its earlier stages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Omicron Variant Circles the Globe, African Nations Face Blame and Bans
> 
> 
> With countries trying to close their doors to the new coronavirus variant, southern African officials note that the West’s hoarding of vaccines helped create their struggle in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



African countries have been asking permission to manufacture the vaccines in their own countries. But pharmaceutical companies want to protect their profits. Things are changing though. I can see why people in poor countries are angry about Americans getting boosters before they get their first shot. But producing vaccines worldwide instead of shipping them makes more sense in the long run.









						Africa tries to end vaccine inequity by replicating its own
					

A team of young scientists in South Africa is assembling the equipment needed to reverse engineer Moderna's coronavirus vaccine.




					www.wsls.com


----------



## Clix Pix

P_X said:


> Luckily, medical ethics aren't that black-and-white. Someone becoming a candidate for a lung transplant AFTER getting COVID they weren't vaccinated for is NOT an absolute contraindication to transplant and it should not be. Should they be prioritized lower if there's a comparabe need by compliant patients? Probably yes.




IMHO someone who is, say, a heavy smoker who _also_ has refused any vaccination against COVID-19 should be removed from the list of potential candidates for lung transplant.   I'll concede that anyone who isn't a smoker, yet who caught COVID _and_ had not been vaccinated should be at the bottom of the list of candidates if there are patients on there who _have_ been vaccinated and who have various other medical conditions where transplant would be beneficial and truly life-restoring.


----------



## Roller

Clix Pix said:


> IMHO someone who is, say, a heavy smoker who _also_ has refused any vaccination against COVID-19 should be removed from the list of potential candidates for lung transplant.   I'll concede that anyone who isn't a smoker, yet who caught COVID _and_ had not been vaccinated should be at the bottom of the list of candidates if there are patients on there who _have_ been vaccinated and who have various other medical conditions where transplant would be beneficial and truly life-restoring.



Assessment for transplant suitability includes the patient's willingness/ability/track record in complying with medication and other protocols, as well as the likelihood of success given the shortage of available organs. So vaccine refusal could certainly factor into the decision, but wouldn't be the only determinant.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Pumbaa

theSeb said:


> The good news is that this new variant appears to have evolved further into not killing the host.



Any good source for this?


----------



## Herdfan

Pumbaa said:


> Any good source for this?




I think it was the original Dr. who discovered the mutation who said it was much milder symptoms.  



P_X said:


> Yes, the pandemic will eventually end/subside once everyone is exposed to the virus one way or another. It's just 10x better to get exposed artificially through vaccines.




I am thinking you mean it is 10x better to be exposed artificially (vaccinated) and not that the vaccine is 10x better.  Please clarify if I am wrong.

But this leads to a second question of why here in the US we do not seem to be treating recovery from it and being vaccinated equally.  In the article I posted a week or so ago about the "Cure" from the German paper where cure was poorly translated from recovered.  And now Switzerland is coming up with a COVID Certificate where you need to be either vaccinated, recovered or proof of negative test.

So it seems Europe is treating recovered equally with vaccinated, and your post seems to equate the same thing.  Why is this not the case in the US.  I know many of you hate Rand Paul, but this is one of his main criticisms of Fauci in that he is not treating recovered equally with vaccinated.

Any idea why we here in the US seem to be treating it differently?


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> I think it was the original Dr. who discovered the mutation who said it was much milder symptoms.
> 
> 
> 
> I am thinking you mean it is 10x better to be exposed artificially (vaccinated) and not that the vaccine is 10x better.  Please clarify if I am wrong.
> 
> But this leads to a second question of why here in the US we do not seem to be treating recovery from it and being vaccinated equally.  In the article I posted a week or so ago about the "Cure" from the German paper where cure was poorly translated from recovered.  And now Switzerland is coming up with a COVID Certificate where you need to be either vaccinated, recovered or proof of negative test.
> 
> So it seems Europe is treating recovered equally with vaccinated, and your post seems to equate the same thing.  Why is this not the case in the US.  I know many of you hate Rand Paul, but this is one of his main criticisms of Fauci in that he is not treating recovered equally with vaccinated.
> 
> Any idea why we here in the US seem to be treating it differently?



Vaccination offers >2x better protection. I thought most people were aware of this, but perhaps not.









						Coronavirus Disease 2019
					

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




					www.cdc.gov
				






> In today’s MMWR, a study of COVID-19 infections in Kentucky among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus.



And Rand Paul is completely and utterly full of ... Which is another thing I thought most people were aware of, but perhaps not.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Pumbaa

> As per @Herdfan , it's all over pretty much every news site coming from one of the South African docs dealing with it.




You mean the one with young healthy patients, who was worried that the new variant could hit older people with comorbidities much harder?


----------



## Eric

Pumbaa said:


> You mean the one with young healthy patients, who was worried that the new variant could hit older people with comorbidities much harder?



Yeah, I'll be waiting for broader studies before making any snap judgements on this being less lethal.


----------



## Roller

theSeb said:


> As per @Herdfan , it's all over pretty much every news site coming from one of the South African docs dealing with it. It also stands to reason. Mutations which allow the virus to spread are the ones we are most likely to see, because they will be the "most successful" from a virus point of view. In order to spread the virus must not kill the host (too quickly). It's also beneficial to not make the host very sick (before it can spread). An able and slightly inconvenienced host is likely to continue mixing with others, thus allowing the virus to spread further.
> 
> The reality is that this new variant has probably been around for quite a while and there are others. South Africa detected it because it has very strong genomic surveillance, unlike the majority of the rest of Africa. Africa is also a perfect breeding ground for new mutations. Low vaccines rates coupled with high rates of diseases, such as HIV (around 20% of South Africa's adult population has HIV for example), is basically a playground for viruses like COVID.



If you follow omicron-related threads by epidemiologists, virologists, computational biologists, and other experts on social media and elsewhere as I do, you'll  find:

There is considerable divergence of opinion regarding omicron's ability to evade immunity.
Estimates of its transmissibility compared to the wild strain or the delta variant similarly differ.
Nobody knows if COVID-19 caused by omicron is the same, worse, or milder.
As I said before, the data are just not available yet. However, given the near certainty that omicron is already widespread and the uncertainty about its implications, governments should give this the attention it needs by making current vaccines available broadly, doing what they can to speed development of omicron-specific vaccines and therapies, and promoting interventions like mask-wearing.

But there is much evidence that infection confers less immunity than vaccines.


----------



## Herdfan

Roller said:


> But there is much evidence that infection confers less immunity than vaccines.




But I'm not sure immunity is the issue.  We know vaccinated people can spread it, but what about those who have had it?  How does the spread differ, if it does, between those who have had it and those who are vaccinated?


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> But I'm not sure immunity is the issue.  We know vaccinated people can spread it, but what about those who have had it?  How does the spread differ, if it does, between those who have had it and those who are vaccinated?



One thing they've always stated is that those who have had it have inconsistent antibody levels, they could have more than enough or not enough to fend off another exposure. With the vaccine it's always consistent no matter what. This is why they recommend it in all cases.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> But I'm not sure immunity is the issue.  We know vaccinated people can spread it, but what about those who have had it?  How does the spread differ, if it does, between those who have had it and those who are vaccinated?











						How can there not be a COVID-19 thread?
					

I think it was the original Dr. who discovered the mutation who said it was much milder symptoms.    I am thinking you mean it is 10x better to be exposed artificially (vaccinated) and not that the vaccine is 10x better.  Please clarify if I am wrong.  But this leads to a second question of why...




					talkedabout.com


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> I am thinking you mean it is 10x better to be exposed artificially (vaccinated) and not that the vaccine is 10x better.  Please clarify if I am wrong.



Well, when you get 1 in 50 killed to get natural immunity, the bar is low..."Better" can be defined by safety, efficacy, cost effectiveness, or durability. Vaccines are winning in 3 of these and the jury's only out on the least predictable: durability.

To me being fiscally responsible means preventing unnecessary medical spending by pushing cost effective interventions.
To me being pro life means preventing unnecessary deaths by pushing 10,000x safer interventions.



Herdfan said:


> But this leads to a second question of why here in the US we do not seem to be treating recovery from it and being vaccinated equally.





Herdfan said:


> So it seems Europe is treating recovered equally with vaccinated, and your post seems to equate the same thing.



No they don't equate the two.
1: Recovery certificates are not universally accepted/weighed in the EU.
2. Most countries I looked at that do recognize recovery, provide 180 days eligibility for recovery and 360 for vaccination. See the difference?




Herdfan said:


> Why is this not the case in the US.



Well, in an ideal world, we'd have a cheap, prospectively validated serum biomarker that we could use to assess present and long-term immunity. So we'd know who are still at risk post recovery or vaccination.



Herdfan said:


> I know many of you hate Rand Paul



I'd say he doesn't meet the ethical, credentialing and competency standards for me to consider his opinions that of a physician.




Herdfan said:


> but this is one of his main criticisms of Fauci in that he is not treating recovered equally with vaccinated.



Because it's not the same. Also, Paul was insinuating a year ago that his mild COVID is the equivalent of lifelong immunity, which tells you about the standard of evidence Paul holds himself to.

In reality we need those prospectively evaluated biomarkers and if Paul cared about this issue, he could use his disproportionate power to push for those studies with the same energy he libels Fauci.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Herdfan

P_X said:


> No they don't equate the two.
> 1: Recovery certificates are not universally accepted/weighed in the EU.
> 2. Most countries I looked at that do recognize recovery, provide 180 days eligibility for recovery and 360 for vaccination. See the difference?




Thanks.  That was the answer I was looking for.  

Following up, reading about the Omicron variant, it almost seems these viruses can think.  Several stories have comments about how viruses can become less lethal over time as they mutate, ie they can't kill off all the hosts or they can't survive.  Is this by design or are the mutations just random?


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Thanks.  That was the answer I was looking for.
> 
> Following up, reading about the Omicron variant, it almost seems these viruses can think.  Several stories have comments about how viruses can become less lethal over time as they mutate, ie they can't kill off all the hosts or they can't survive.  Is this by design or are the mutations just random?



Evolution, baby


----------



## Pumbaa

P_X said:


> Evolution, baby



Intelligent design, heathen


----------



## Eric

Some early data from Israel.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/r5ueps


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> Some early data from Israel.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/r5ueps



I'd be extremely cautious with those statements. This article lacks timeframe, sample size and pretty much everything that would allow one to assess for selection bias.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> I'd be extremely cautious with those statements. This article lacks timeframe, sample size and pretty much everything that would allow one to assess for selection bias.




Fair enough, taking with a grain of salt (as I am with all early data) but it seems like they're honestly reporting on what data they do have.


> Reporter indicates that: Boosted vaccination protection from infection is 90% Previously sick has twice the chance to get infected then delta variant. R is 1.3 faster than Delta Unvaccinated has 2.4 times the chance of becoming seriously sick then original strain


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> Fair enough, taking with a grain of salt (as I am with all early data) but it seems like they're honestly reporting on what data they do have.



To be clear, I don't question the honesty of reporting. Israel has been a bastion of COVID reporting because 1) they have socialized healthcare (at least for the chosen people) and 2) they are world-leaders on vaccinations 3) they had an agreement for post-marketing data collection and publication. 

The concern is that if the exposure to Omicron is of non-random distribution (e.g. young socialites), and you compare this group to the general population, the differences may reflect the population differences rather than the differential characteristics of Omicron. I made sure to look at the translated article to draw my conclusion, which is, there is zero conclusion. It might keep mass panic at bay but that's all.


----------



## Eric

Here we go...









						California confirms nation's first Omicron variant coronavirus case
					

As expected, the Omicron coronavirus variant, first detected last month, has reached the U.S., with the first case found in California.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## Alli

Eric said:


> Here we go...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California confirms nation's first Omicron variant coronavirus case
> 
> 
> As expected, the Omicron coronavirus variant, first detected last month, has reached the U.S., with the first case found in California.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com



And now they’re popping up all over. We knew it would take no time.


----------



## SuperMatt

Alli said:


> And now they’re popping up all over. We knew it would take no time.



We can slow it down by testing less, right? I think that’s what Trump said.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Well, this is scary.  Where the second case of omicron has been found...



> Anime NYC Javits Center Attendee Is Second American Omicron Case
> 
> 
> I've just got back from San Diego Comic-Con this very hour, and spend time at the airport spitting into tubes in case I came home bringing the Omicron
> 
> 
> 
> bleedingcool.com





> I've just got back from San Diego Comic-Con this very hour, and spend time at the airport spitting into tubes in case I came home bringing the Omicron coronavirus variant with. Not that likely, even though the first confirmed case was in California. And as the second Omicron case in the US has just been identified – and they went to a different comic con on a different coast, Anime NYC. at the Javits Center in Manhattan, New York – also home to New York Comic Con.




As the person attended a convention.  If they believe he was infected while at the con, that could be a contract tracing nightmare.  Conventions at the Javitts are monstrous.  Not counting all the surrounding areas to visit as well.



> Minnesota Man Who Traveled to NYC for Javits Convention Is 2nd US Omicron Case
> 
> 
> New York officials say they will not overreact to Thursday’s development, but “we should assume there is community spread of the variant in our city.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnewyork.com





> The U.S. has now confirmed its second omicron variant case -- in a Minnesota resident who recently traveled to New York City for a two-day convention at the Javits Center in Manhattan, the state's Department of Public Health said Thursday.
> 
> The news came the same day the state reported 11,300 new positive cases of COVID-19, the highest single-day total since late January, along with new months-long highs in daily deaths and statewide hospitalizations.
> 
> Omicron has yet to be confirmed in the Empire State but as Gov. Kathy Hochul has said, "It's coming."
> 
> The Minnesota case is an adult male who lives in Hennepin County and had been vaccinated, officials said. He attended the Anime NYC 2021 convention at the Javits Center from Nov. 19-21. It's not clear what else he may have done in New York City during his visit, but he developed mild symptoms on Nov. 22 and was tested for COVID two days later, officials said. His symptoms have since resolved.
> 
> Gov. Kathy Hochul and other officials, as well as public health leaders, had said it would only be a matter of time before omicron was detected locally -- and that window appears to be shortening rapidly. New York state sequences only about 3.5% of positive COVID samples for variant isolation, similar to other states -- but it means that variants like omicron can circulate widely undetected for some time.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Well, this is scary.  Where the second case of omicron has been found...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As the person attended a convention.  If they believe he was infected while at the con, that could be a contract tracing nightmare.  Conventions at the Javitts are monstrous.  Not counting all the surrounding areas to visit as well.



Honestly, I couldn't care less about this. The moment the evolutionary advantage was shown, it was clear the new variant would get is soon. There's a reason WHO traditionally does not encourage travel """bans""" (these are travel restrictions and not bans).


----------



## JayMysteri0

P_X said:


> Honestly, I couldn't care less about this. The moment the evolutionary advantage was shown, it was clear the new variant would get is soon. There's a reason WHO traditionally does not encourage travel """bans""" (these are travel restrictions and not bans).



The reason I found this scary, is because I myself did go to those conventions before the pandemic began.  As I mentioned conventions at the Javitts Center are large.  With the NY Comic Con pulling an attendance of 250K +.  This Anime con had supposedly around 35K, which involves people from all over the country and various parts of Europe.  We can't of course easily tell how someone got infected, but when that convention disperses that alone maybe a frightening expansion of the virus.

For the most part mask mandates are in place, and in the case of the Comic con aggressively followed.  Yet it still isn't enough, but so many fans keep hoping things will return to normal sooner than later.

I myself was quietly hoping that I'd be able to hit a big con next year, but I'm wondering if that's going to happen.


----------



## Clix Pix

I have a ticket for a concert in another city in the middle of this month.  I'm already thinking about whether or not I should just cancel the hotel reservation now, give my friend who had purchased tickets for several of us  the money for my ticket now, and stay right here at home.....   Sigh.   Actually, I'll wait a week or so, see if the concert is canceled by the artist, which of course could happen....


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> The reason I found this scary, is because I myself did go to those conventions before the pandemic began.  As I mentioned conventions at the Javitts Center are large.  With the NY Comic Con pulling an attendance of 250K +.  This Anime con had supposedly around 35K, which involves people from all over the country and various parts of Europe.  We can't of course easily tell how someone got infected, but when that convention disperses that alone maybe a frightening expansion of the virus.
> 
> For the most part mask mandates are in place, and in the case of the Comic con aggressively followed.  Yet it still isn't enough, but so many fans keep hoping things will return to normal sooner than later.
> 
> I myself was quietly hoping that I'd be able to hit a big con next year, but I'm wondering if that's going to happen.



Saw this on the ABC evening news and man it's flat out scary, like you said they had mask and vaccine requirements and everyone was wearing masks in the footage they showed.


----------



## ronntaylor

JayMysteri0 said:


> For the most part mask mandates are in place, and in the case of the Comic con aggressively followed. Yet it still isn't enough, but so many fans keep hoping things will return to normal sooner than later.



A very good friend just starting reworking at Javits after ~18 months absence. Her agency practically begged her to come back and train others. She asked for guaranteed safety protocols and her ability to work on a per event basis. I think she's opting out of the larger events and wants nothing to do with enforcing/encouraging mask wearing and social distancing protocols.

Not sure if she worked AnimeCon as I was out of the City. I'll check when I get back this weekend as we're planning to meet up in person for the first time since the Pandemic.


----------



## JayMysteri0

ronntaylor said:


> A very good friend just starting reworking at Javits after ~18 months absence. Her agency practically begged her to come back and train others. She asked for guaranteed safety protocols and her ability to work on a per event basis. I think she's opting out of the larger events and wants nothing to do with enforcing/encouraging mask wearing and social distancing protocols.
> 
> Not sure if she worked AnimeCon as I was out of the City. I'll check when I get back this weekend as we're planning to meet up in person for the first time since the Pandemic.



There were reports that at the Comic Con, there was the obligatory sorts that weren't big on the masks.  One was a store owner who brought floor space.  The Javits staff wasn't playing, the store owner basically pissed away his money over a mask mandate he clearly was made aware of weeks ago.  The staff got praise for how they handled enforcing mask use, for those I read & spoke to that went to the con.


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> There were reports that at the Comic Con, there was the obligatory sorts that weren't big on the masks.  One was a store owner who brought floor space.  The Javits staff wasn't playing, the store owner basically pissed away his money over a mask mandate he clearly was made aware of weeks ago.  The staff got praise for how they handled enforcing mask use, for those I read & spoke to that went to the con.



Good for them for handling it, unfortunately that's what is going to have to happen in order to prevent the spread.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> The reason I found this scary, is because I myself did go to those conventions before the pandemic began.  As I mentioned conventions at the Javitts Center are large.  With the NY Comic Con pulling an attendance of 250K +.  This Anime con had supposedly around 35K, which involves people from all over the country and various parts of Europe.  We can't of course easily tell how someone got infected, but when that convention disperses that alone maybe a frightening expansion of the virus.
> 
> For the most part mask mandates are in place, and in the case of the Comic con aggressively followed.  Yet it still isn't enough, but so many fans keep hoping things will return to normal sooner than later.
> 
> I myself was quietly hoping that I'd be able to hit a big con next year, but I'm wondering if that's going to happen.



Well, I still don't see the surprise. Vaccines are phenomenal but not perfect, masks are good if of adequate material and worn properly but still not perfect, and when people socialize outside the convention, these things are just bound to happen especially when that socialization happens in closed spaces in the middle of COVID season. 

If you ignore omicron, there's nothing new here.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Roller

We may never get back to the conditions that existed prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, nor should we, since we were blissfully ignorant. However, we now have the tools to return to a reasonable way of life by co-existing with SARS-CoV-2 and many other pathogens. Unfortunately, we won't get there in a silo, especially when so many in government, right-wing media, and others work actively against appropriate measures.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## JayMysteri0

P_X said:


> Well, I still don't see the surprise. Vaccines are phenomenal but not perfect, masks are good if of adequate material and worn properly but still not perfect, and when people socialize outside the convention, these things are just bound to happen especially when that socialization happens in closed spaces in the middle of COVID season.
> 
> If you ignore omicron, there's nothing new here.



I wasn’t talking about surprise in any way.  I mentioned how I found it scary that an event I’ve gone to in the past turns into the place where someone catches a new version of COVID.

One doesn’t plan to go to a con, concert, or the movies, and return home with a barely discussed COVID mutation.

Looking at it like that though, yeah I’d still be a little surprised. I don’t think we are so collectively jaded, comfortable, or even numb yet, that every time you attend a public gathering you think you might come home with a new strain of COVID from somewhere else in the world.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> I wasn’t talking about surprise in any way.  I mentioned how I found it scary that an event I’ve gone to in the past turns into the place where someone catches a new version of COVID.
> 
> One doesn’t plan to go to a con, concert, or the movies, and return home with a barely discussed COVID mutation.
> 
> Looking at it like that though, yeah I’d still be a little surprised. I don’t think we are so collectively jaded, comfortable, or even numb yet, that every time you attend a public gathering you think you might home with a new strain of COVID from somewhere else in the world.



Fair enough. In my perspective these are things that had been happening without our knowledge before we actively started surveying for them. But I’m also definitely that jaded. Comes with the profession.


----------



## Thomas Veil

JayMysteri0 said:


> Well, this is scary.  Where the second case of omicron has been found...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As the person attended a convention.  If they believe he was infected while at the con, that could be a contract tracing nightmare.  Conventions at the Javitts are monstrous.  Not counting all the surrounding areas to visit as well.



I thought about that as soon as I read it. This was one of only two people who were diagnosed with Omicron at the time…but what a place for that person to be. 

On the lighter side, however, I saw this comment from social media.


----------



## Roller

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1467285277345525762/


----------



## Thomas Veil

I’m amazed MTG’s staff lets her play with scissors.


----------



## SuperMatt

The vaccine is working:



			https://wapo.st/3osMyax
		




> Perhaps the most highly vaccinated large county in America, according to New York Times data, is Montgomery County, Md., just outside the District of Columbia. Data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show 93 percent of those 12 and older there are fully vaccinated, compared to around 70 percent nationally. The number dying over the past week is eight times as high nationally — 3.4 per 1 million — as it is in Montgomery County — 0.4 per 1 million — even as Montgomery County is near some virus hotspots.






> The relative rate is similar in two of the handful of other most-vaccinated large counties in the country: Dane County, Wis. (home to Madison), where 86 percent of people 12 and older are fully vaccinated, per the CDC, and San Francisco, where 84 percent are vaccinated. Dane County also has 0.4 deaths per 1 million despite being in one of the most hard-hit regions, the Midwest.
> 
> Slightly fewer people 12 and over are vaccinated in New York City, though still north of 80 percent. Over the past week, it has registered a per-capita death rate about one-third the national average.


----------



## Clix Pix

Saw that article today in _the Post_ and was surprised that Fairfax County, VA, wasn't mentioned.....  The counties immediately surrounding the Washington, DC area are going to have higher numbers when it comes to vaccinations than some of the counties further south in the more rural parts of the state.


----------



## JayMysteri0

It's been reported before, but it really can't be said enough.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1467479685319774209/

That reminder of the Pogo cartoon I've been quoting since the faux tears about masks & being asked ( not experiencing true lock downs ) to stay at home.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."


----------



## Eric

The news just said Omicron was discovered in sewage samples taken on November 30th, just as the news of it broke. I think we're going to learn it's more widespread in the US than anyone thought.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> we're going to learn it's more widespread in the US than _anyone_ thought.



I think these things have been very obvious and thus far none of the equation had changed secondary to Omicron.


----------



## lizkat

Nice touch in the north of our county:  Christmas theme thanking essential workers during the pandemic.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Still lots of uncertainty with Omicron but the Pfizer CEO is talking about a fourth shot








						Pfizer CEO says fourth Covid vaccine doses may be needed sooner than expected due to omicron
					

"When we see real-world data, will determine if the omicron is well covered by the third dose and for how long," Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla told CNBC.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Thomas Veil

Yeah, I've got all three of the Pfizer shots, and they say I should be pretty well protected _for now_. But two just won't cut it anymore. If anyone hasn't gotten all three yet, you better get going; you're falling farther and farther behind the curve.


----------



## Eric

Thomas Veil said:


> Yeah, I've got all three of the Pfizer shots, and they say I should be pretty well protected _for now_. But two just won't cut it anymore. If anyone hasn't gotten all three yet, you better get going; you're falling farther and farther behind the curve.



They've made it pretty clear, you'll either get the vaccine or you'll get COVID. It's amazing how much this virus has changed the world.


----------



## User.45

Runs For Fun said:


> Still lots of uncertainty with Omicron but the Pfizer CEO is talking about a fourth shot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer CEO says fourth Covid vaccine doses may be needed sooner than expected due to omicron
> 
> 
> "When we see real-world data, will determine if the omicron is well covered by the third dose and for how long," Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla told CNBC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com



Or start mixing the shots...


----------



## Herdfan

Thomas Veil said:


> Yeah, I've got all three of the Pfizer shots, and they say I should be pretty well protected _for now_. But two just won't cut it anymore. If anyone hasn't gotten all three yet, you better get going; you're falling farther and farther behind the curve.




But you still have to wait 8 months though.  Or did this change?



P_X said:


> Or start mixing the shots...




Is there a benefit?


----------



## Thomas Veil

Herdfan said:


> But you still have to wait 8 months though. Or did this change?




The Pfizer CEO said on _Today_ that you might be able to get the booster after three months.

That still means if you’re starting from scratch _now_ we’re talking about early to mid April to complete the three shot regimen.


----------



## User.45

Thomas Veil said:


> The Pfizer CEO said on _Today_ that you might be able to get the booster after three months.
> 
> That still means if you’re starting from scratch _now_ we’re talking about early to mid April to complete the three shot regimen.



This is where the Pfizer CEO has a MAJOR financial conflict of interest and should not be the authoritative source of vaccination recommendations...

Controlling the pandemic has a number of levels based on priority:
1. Prevent deaths - initial vaccination is the most critical
2. Prevent irreversible health problems caused by severe disease and hospitalization - initial vaccination does a pretty good job at this
3. Reduce financial toxicity (i..e. unnecessary healthcare spending). - same as above, but boosters are critical
4. Prevent COVID from interrupting the economy by incapacitating workforce. - boosters definitely important
5. Prevent new variants from emerging - Would take global immunization, and the ship is largely sailed already



Herdfan said:


> Is there a benefit?



The evidence if more difficult to generate for mix-n-match because it's no longer happening in a controlled experimental fashion. That said, mechanistically exposing you to a different vaccine could generate more diverse immunity, so yes, in theory I'd expect better immunity against variants if you had multiple different vaccines. I also think that getting the *same* vaccine 4x times is not the way to go, unless they produce sufficient clinical trial evidence that it is.

COVID will be the new Flu (and the flu can be pretty deadly...). We'll be exposed to multiple strains and we'll need periodic boosters. My annoyance is that as long as the pandemic is propelled by the unvaccinated, we'll have limited control in modulating the waves... So the timing of boosters and not the number that will be critical.


----------



## Roller

Hospitals are already past the breaking point in Michigan and several other states. It's a combination of too many patients sick with COVID-19 on top of other ailments, coupled with staff, especially nurses, who are mentally and physically exhausted from prior surges. People are capable of extraordinary effort when circumstances demand it, but it's exceedingly difficult when healthcare workers are faced with active sabotage that has led to so much unnecessary death and suffering. And lest anyone think their community will be spared because case counts are low, January and February will tell a different story, I'm afraid as Delta continues to infect the unvaccinated/unboosted and Omicron takes hold. Sadly, around here, mask wearing is mostly limited to healthcare facilities and a few other places. Elsewhere, it's business as usual.

One of the biggest failures of the government's response here in the U.S.A. has been the high cost of non-PCR COVID-19 tests that take less than an hour for a result. They are remarkably helpful to limit spread when they're made readily available — they should be given away in the millions.


----------



## Alli

Roller said:


> One of the biggest failures of the government's response here in the U.S.A. has been the high cost of non-PCR COVID-19 tests that take less than an hour for a result. They are remarkably helpful to limit spread when they're made readily available — they should be given away in the millions.



That is an understatement. I bought two tests for our upcoming cruise. Expensive little suckers.


----------



## User.45

Roller said:


> One of the biggest failures of the government's response here in the U.S.A. has been the high cost of non-PCR COVID-19 tests that take less than an hour for a result. They are remarkably helpful to limit spread when they're made readily available — they should be given away in the millions.



A centralized plan is generally helpful. My kids' previous daycare told us to test the kid whenever they've had a runny nose (which is ALL-THE-TIME). Most upsetting was when they've had a hand-foor-mouth disease outbreak and they didn't inform us, just told us to get a COVID test. We only figured out what's going on when the pediatrician asked for it and I grabbed a large LED that revealed the palmoplantar rash.


The current school does pooled testing on Monday, if the pooled tests come back positive, they test kids individually and call off the class for a week. It's covered by the tuition. It's much clearer this way and doesn't solely rely on parental reporting.


----------



## Alli

P_X said:


> The current school does pooled testing on Monday, if the pooled tests come back positive, they test kids individually and call off the class for a week. It's covered by the tuition. It's much clearer this way and doesn't solely rely on parental reporting.



This makes sense. A lot of schools are now a bit “gun shy” when it comes to telling parents of sicknesses.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Roller said:


> Sadly, around here, mask wearing is mostly limited to healthcare facilities and a few other places. Elsewhere, it's business as usual.




I think a lot of people are just tired of it and they're ready to move on and get back to life as normal.  I totally get that.  What I don't get is the thinking that wanting it to be gone is somehow a valid defense against a virus.  Sticking your head is the sand is still going to get your ass kicked, you'll just have sand in your hair when it happens.


----------



## Eric

California is reinstating the indoor mask mandate. We usually do well with infection rates but it's gone up 47% in the last two weeks and now they're sounding all the alarms. 

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1470521440931913736/


----------



## Thomas Veil

In just the last few days:

I've watched my wife's cousin's husband go to the hospital with Covid and pneumonia. He had to be put on a ventilator. I don't know it for a fact, but from the cousin's FB posts they sound like the kind of people who put their health in God's hands rather than doctors'.
My daughter's neighbor, vaccinated and booster'd, was diagnosed with Covid. Symptoms not too bad, but even so.
The Cleveland Browns are playing on Saturday, and if they keep putting people on the Covid reserve list, they may have to start scouring the local high schools for quarterbacks and other players.
I'm seeing hospitals in our area and around the country fill up with Covid patients again.
I myself have been invited to go out with the guys in my office to celebrate Christmas one evening next week. I'm seriously leaning towards backing out since it's at a public venue.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Thomas Veil said:


> In just the last few days:
> 
> I've watched my wife's cousin's...
> The Cleveland Browns...




In oddly similar news, I just heard from my mother that my cousin died from Covid yesterday.  It seems he had been on a vent at the Cleveland Clinic.

He's the son of the uncle who died of Covid last year, just a few days before Christmas.  We've not spoken since we were children, so I have no clue what his vaccination status might have been.  But I grew up in an area (near Youngstown Ohio) where I wouldn't expect a high vaccination rate.


----------



## Herdfan

Well this just gave the "the vaccine isn't safe" crowd more ammo:









						CDC panel unanimously recommends mRNA vaccines instead of J&J
					

Most Americans should be given the Pfizer or Moderna mRNA vaccines instead of the Johnson & Johnson shot, U.S. health advisers recommended Thursday.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> Well this just gave the "the vaccine isn't safe" crowd more ammo:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC panel unanimously recommends mRNA vaccines instead of J&J
> 
> 
> Most Americans should be given the Pfizer or Moderna mRNA vaccines instead of the Johnson & Johnson shot, U.S. health advisers recommended Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk



Perhaps, but what do you suggest as a better course of action? Anti-vaxxers refer to vaccines as a monolith, when in reality they perform differently and have different rates of adverse events. And the likelihood of thrombosis from J&J is still far lower than the risk associated with COVID-19. But you can't win when dealing with people who get their medical advice from Joe Rogan or Tucker Carlson or do their own "research."


----------



## SuperMatt

Roller said:


> Perhaps, but what do you suggest as a better course of action? Anti-vaxxers refer to vaccines as a monolith, when in reality they perform differently and have different rates of adverse events. And the likelihood of thrombosis from J&J is still far lower than the risk associated with COVID-19. But you can't win when dealing with people who get their medical advice from Joe Rogan or Tucker Carlson or do their own "research."



Some people hate being told what to do. If they haven’t outgrown their toddler phase, I don’t know what we can do other than make it inconvenient for them to take part in society. Asking them to be grown-ups and help their country is not working.


----------



## Clix Pix

I had plans to attend a concert tonight in Lancaster, PA with friends -- had the hotel room reserved for myself and everything, but a couple of days ago I bit the bullet and made the decision not to attend the concert after all.    I'm fully vaccinated (two regular jabs of Moderna, plus booster) and from what I understand the theatre is requiring masking and (possibly) proof of vaccination from all attendees, but even so, I got a bit nervous as the idea of sitting in a theatre with several hundred strangers and spending time and around other strangers in restaurants and the hotel.   At my age (76) with this Omicron thing seemingly moving pretty. quickly, I decided it was just too risky.   I'll miss being there tonight with my friends and seeing/hearing/supporting the artist, but hopefully things will get better in the spring and there will be other concerts, other opportunities.....


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1471937383264309264/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1471898438707068935/


----------



## Thomas Veil

When Trump was (*_word_ _sticks_ _in_ _my_ _craw_*) President, I think the daily drip-drip-drip of crazy behavior from that office maybe desensitized us to how evil this guy’s Covid “policies” were. 

It hit me a lot harder when I read this summary of the sheer negligence, contempt and recklessness that characterized how he handled that entire year. 









						Trump White House made 'deliberate efforts' to undermine Covid response, report says
					

The White House repeatedly overruled public health and testing guidance from the nation’s top infectious disease experts and silenced officials, the report found.




					www.nbcnews.com
				






> The report, prepared by the House select subcommittee investigating the nation’s Covid response, says the White House repeatedly overruled public health and testing guidance by the nation’s top infectious disease experts and silenced officials in order to promote then-President Donald Trump's political agenda.





> …In an interview with the subcommittee, Birx said when she arrived to the White House in March 2020 — more than a month after the U.S. declared a public health emergency — she learned that federal officials had not yet contacted some of the largest U.S. companies that could supply Covid testing.





> The subcommittee also found in its investigation that the Trump White House blocked requests from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to conduct public briefings for more than three months. That move followed a late-February 2020 briefing in which a top CDC official "accurately warned the public about the risks posed by the coronavirus," it said.
> 
> Another CDC official told the panel that the agency asked to hold a briefing in April 2020 on a recommendation to wear cloth face coverings and present evidence of pediatric cases and deaths from Covid, but the Trump White House refused.





> Documents obtained by the committee also show that Trump political appointees tried to pressure the Food and Drug Administration to authorize ineffective Covid treatments the president was pushing, like hydroxychloroquine and convalescent plasma, over the objections of career scientists, the report said.




That is sheer insanity. And I have to ask. Do you think such negligence and concerted efforts to run in the wrong direction constitutes a crime against humanity? I think a case could be made.


----------



## SuperMatt

Moderna’s booster is highly effective against Omicron.



> A booster shot of the Moderna coronavirus vaccine significantly raises the level of antibodies that can thwart the Omicron variant, the company announced on Monday.
> 
> The news arrives as Omicron rapidly advances across the world, and most coronavirus vaccines seem unable to stave off infectionfrom the highly contagious variant.
> 
> Moderna’s results show that the currently authorized booster dose of 50 micrograms — half the dose given for primary immunization — increased the level of antibodies by roughly 37-fold, the company said. A full dose of 100 micrograms was even more powerful, raising antibody levels about 83-fold compared with pre-boost levels, Moderna said.











						Moderna says its booster significantly raises the level of antibodies to thwart Omicron.
					

A 50-microgram dose increased antibodies by roughly 37-fold, and a full dose of 100 micrograms was even more powerful, the company said.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Clix Pix

Yay, Moderna!  As someone who has been dosed with Moderna three times, I'm reassured!


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Moderna’s booster is highly effective against Omicron.




Couldn't read the article, so maybe it was addressed, but is that for 3x Moderna or will it be similar for 2x Pfizer + 1 Moderna?

Local Walgreen's has Moderna.


----------



## Renzatic

It takes a lot to tick me off, but this guy, this pastor at a local church, managed to do just that on Facebook...


----------



## Pumbaa

Yay! They finally added the number of covid-19 hospitalizations per 100,000 separately for unvaccinated and vaccinated respectively for different age groups to the slides.




Data from October 25th to November 28th 2021, so a bit dated. You can probably figure things out without translation.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Couldn't read the article, so maybe it was addressed, but is that for 3x Moderna or will it be similar for 2x Pfizer + 1 Moderna?
> 
> Local Walgreen's has Moderna.



I'd go with moderna. In my state moderna spots disappear in a matter of minutes. I ended up settling with pfizer for dose #3.


----------



## User.45

Pumbaa said:


> Yay! They finally added the number of covid-19 hospitalizations per 100,000 separately for unvaccinated and vaccinated respectively for different age groups to the slides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data from October 25th to November 28th 2021, so a bit dated. You can probably figure things out without translation.



One of my collaborators is in Sweden right now and we got a chuckle about the stark difference in COVID precautions the moment he enters Denmark...


----------



## rdrr

Renzatic said:


> It takes a lot to tick me off, but this guy, this pastor at a local church, managed to do just that on Facebook...
> 
> View attachment 10469
> 
> View attachment 10470



Last post was a so on point.  Please tell me that Marc Bowers came back with something, or did he just block you?


----------



## User.45

Renzatic said:


> It takes a lot to tick me off, but this guy, this pastor at a local church, managed to do just that on Facebook...
> 
> View attachment 10469
> 
> View attachment 10470



The trendy haircut the Hitlerjügend used to sport...


----------



## Renzatic

rdrr said:


> Last post was a so on point.  Please tell me that Marc Bowers came back with something, or did he just block you?




He pulled off some slippery slope bullshit, then bailed on the conversation.


----------



## Renzatic

P_X said:


> The trendy haircut the Hitlerjügend used to sport...




Everyone has a haircut like that these days. INCLUDING ME!

...now that I think about it, you could probably make a correlation between average lengths of popular haircuts, and general uptightness of the population at large.


----------



## Pumbaa

P_X said:


> One of my collaborators is in Sweden right now and we got a chuckle about the stark difference in COVID precautions the moment he enters Denmark...



Voluntarily entering Denmark? Sounds like either a madman or someone desperately looking to stock up on cheaper booze.


----------



## User.45

Renzatic said:


> Everyone has a haircut like that these days. INCLUDING ME!
> 
> ...now that I think about it, you could probably make a correlation between average lengths of popular haircuts, and general uptightness of the population at large.



Hair fashion rotates over 2-3 decades, but there's a reason this specific haircut was not included in that rotation for 7 decades. By now, society feels we're past the Nazis, but well, we definitely aren't.


----------



## User.45

Pumbaa said:


> Voluntarily entering Denmark? Sounds like either a madman or someone desperately looking to stock up on cheaper booze.



Hahaha. My Norwegian buddies always told me Danish is how drunk Norwegians speak. A friend of mine works in Denmark and she told me, the best compliments she gets about her Danish is that she must be Norwegian. Scandinavian banter about Denmark never gets old


----------



## Renzatic

P_X said:


> Hahaha. My Norwegian buddies always told me Danish is how drunk Norwegians speak. A friend of mine works in Denmark and she told me, the best compliments she gets about her Danish is that she must be Norwegian. Scandinavian banter about Denmark never gets old




I've heard that Dutch sounds a lot like a little kid making fun of a German speaker.


----------



## Herdfan

P_X said:


> I'd go with moderna. In my state moderna spots disappear in a matter of minutes. I ended up settling with pfizer for dose #3.




Thanks!  I will get my booster next week when not much is going on.


----------



## Pumbaa

P_X said:


> Hahaha. My Norwegian buddies always told me Danish is how drunk Norwegians speak. A friend of mine works in Denmark and she told me, the best compliments she gets about her Danish is that she must be Norwegian. Scandinavian banter about Denmark never gets old




This clip (in English) suddenly feels extremely relevant. Scandinavian banter (Danish).


----------



## rdrr

Pumbaa said:


> This clip (in English) suddenly feels extremely relevant. Scandinavian banter (Danish).



I didn't know that Denmark is considered the Arkansas of Scandinavia.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1473392278689370113/


----------



## dukebound85

SuperMatt said:


> The latest Trump planner thinks that 200,000 deaths is too few. He’s going for 2 million!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump's new pandemic boss Scott Atlas pushes 'herd immunity' plan, 2 million+ Americans would have to die | Boing Boing
> 
> 
> “With a population of 328 million in the United States, it may require 2.13 million deaths to reach a 65 percent threshold of herd immunity, assuming the virus has a 1 percent fatality rate, accord…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boingboing.net



Funny how this is seemingly on pace


----------



## User.45

Pumbaa said:


> This clip (in English) suddenly feels extremely relevant. Scandinavian banter (Danish).



This is what I'm talking about. I find these things really cute. I consider nordic languages (except for Finnish of course) a form of english, this is why my norwegian friends speak perfect english. Dutch on the other hand sounds like an aphasic German trying to speak English. My brain mostly tells me I should comprehend, but then sends my syntax error messages.




dukebound85 said:


> Funny how this is seemingly on pace



I'd emphasize that even then we had enough data to be very concerned about transient immunity (which I voiced over and over again).
I'm gonna look up where Scott Atlas is now.

Update: of course. A book. That's what happened to Atlas. Reviews consistently coming from fringe websites... I usually stop reading when they try to tell me that Fauci is pro-lockdown but fail to mention how incredibly wrong Atlas has been on herd immunity.


----------



## SuperMatt




----------



## ronntaylor

SuperMatt said:


>



I have to admit that for some reason I was pronouncing it "Oh-My-Kron" in the beginning. Driving hubby crazy


----------



## Eric

ronntaylor said:


> I have to admit that for some reason I was pronouncing it "Oh-My-Kron" in the beginning. Driving hubby crazy



Anyone who comes from Futurama stock knows the proper pronunciation.


----------



## User.45

My very very rudimentary review of COVID curves (from NYT because, convenience). 

This reminds me of my MR frenemy. I hope he's OK, he told me about a year ago that COVID will disappear (""from the media"") after the election. Guy's been holding his breath for a while...


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> View attachment 10521
> 
> My very very rudimentary review of COVID curves (from NYT because, convenience).
> 
> *This reminds me of my MR frenemy. I hope he's OK, he told me about a year ago that COVID will disappear (""from the media"") after the election.* Guy's been holding his breath for a while...



You've never seen a more clueless group of sheep. Even now, they're completely dismissing science over a political view and it's just baffling to anyone with a shred of common sense.


----------



## User.45

Eric said:


> You've never seen a more clueless group of sheep. Even now, they're completely dismissing science over a political view and it's just baffling to anyone with a shred of common sense.



He's educated and AFAIR got vaccinated too. Yet he was parroting every single talking point. 
One of the things these people do is recite Rand Paul's questions.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> He's educated and AFAIR got vaccinated too. Yet he was parroting every single talking point.
> One of the things these people do is recite Rand Paul's questions.



Rand Paul is like Paul Ryan or Ben Shapiro. Right-wing sheep see them as “smart” and then parrot everything they say in hopes that they will also sound smart.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Rand Paul is like Paul Ryan or Ben Shapiro. Right-wing sheep see them as “smart” and then parrot everything they say in hopes that they will also sound smart.



BS doesn't really hit my thresholds, but he usually talks about irrelevant stuff. He also ruined my favorite medical term (logorrhea = pressured speech). 
RP isn't very deserving of more of my time, but I'll say, I do consider myself objectively more qualified than him on medical matters. 
Except for ophthalmology, of course.


----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## Roller

This is interesting:
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1474024520721866789/

I don't ascribe any altruistic motivations here — he thinks this benefits him politically, which it may, and he takes all the credit. But it's amusing to see the MAGA anti-vaxxers' (they're not synonymous) heads spinning. Candace Owens tried to shift the blame for deaths this year to Biden, and Trump countered her.


----------



## User.45

Roller said:


> This is interesting:
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1474024520721866789/
> 
> I don't ascribe any altruistic motivations here — he thinks this benefits him politically, which it may, and he takes all the credit. But it's amusing to see the MAGA anti-vaxxers' (they're not synonymous) heads spinning. Candace Owens tried to shift the blame for deaths this year to Biden, and Trump countered her.



Whiplash


----------



## SuperMatt

Roller said:


> This is interesting:
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1474024520721866789/
> 
> I don't ascribe any altruistic motivations here — he thinks this benefits him politically, which it may, and he takes all the credit. But it's amusing to see the MAGA anti-vaxxers' (they're not synonymous) heads spinning. Candace Owens tried to shift the blame for deaths this year to Biden, and Trump countered her.



Donald, blink twice if Dr Fauci is making you say this at gunpoint!

Love,
Another true believer


----------



## fischersd

Roller said:


> This is interesting:
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1474024520721866789/
> 
> I don't ascribe any altruistic motivations here — he thinks this benefits him politically, which it may, and he takes all the credit. But it's amusing to see the MAGA anti-vaxxers' (they're not synonymous) heads spinning. Candace Owens tried to shift the blame for deaths this year to Biden, and Trump countered her.



One of his lawyer friends may have also hypothesized how he could be facing a class action lawsuit at the end of this for all of the anti-vax nonsense.  This could be damage control.


----------



## User.45

fischersd said:


> One of his lawyer friends may have also hypothesized how he could be facing a class action lawsuit at the end of this for all of the anti-vax nonsense.  This could be damage control.



This single-handedly destroys his chances to win in 2024


----------



## Edd

P_X said:


> This single-handedly destroys his chances to win in 2024



From loss of support, you mean? IDK, his flock is capable of astonishing mental gymnastics.

It would be grimly entertaining to watch another candidate attempt a hostile takeover of his base, using his vaccine endorsement against him.


----------



## User.45

Edd said:


> From loss of support, you mean? IDK, his flock is capable of astonishing mental gymnastics.
> 
> It would be grimly entertaining to watch another candidate attempt a hostile takeover of his base, using his vaccine endorsement against him.



The Q-movement is a Stand Alone Complex*. The issue is that the movement is so heavily primed for destruction, Trump would only have control over it when it comes to inciting chaos. So semi-reasonable statements will alienate his base. 


*Phenomenon where in behavior by unconnected individuals creates a seemingly concentrated effort. This behavior is copied from a previous source without an original.


----------



## Alli

Edd said:


> From loss of support, you mean? IDK, his flock is capable of astonishing mental gymnastics.
> 
> It would be grimly entertaining to watch another candidate attempt a hostile takeover of his base, using his vaccine endorsement against him.



Can’t you just see DeSantis doing that?


----------



## User.45

Alli said:


> Can’t you just see DeSantis doing that?



These guys are way too chaotic and fringe to be compatible with mainstream political success beyond the destruction I mentioned above (like harassing Fauci).


----------



## Nycturne

P_X said:


> The Q-movement is a Stand Alone Complex*. The issue is that the movement is so heavily primed for destruction, Trump would only have control over it when it comes to inciting chaos. So semi-reasonable statements will alienate his base.




I don’t think I ever expected this term to be used in such an apt way. 



P_X said:


> These guys are way too chaotic and fringe to be compatible with mainstream political success beyond the destruction I mentioned above (like harassing Fauci).




Compatible, perhaps not. But it has had an impact on the base, with 47% of Republicans saying they weren’t likely to get vaccinated this last summer. With the sheer size of the audience this group has for their misinformation at this point, along with growing influence of media outlets willing to pass along the misinformation, politicians have to at least take it into account, which pulls the whole party towards the fringe.

Even if Trump gets abandoned by his base, I don’t think it means we’ll see the party back away from the fringe.


----------



## User.45

Nycturne said:


> I don’t think I ever expected this term to be used in such an apt way.



It’s insane that Ghost in the shell predicted these events in a scope of 15 years. 



Nycturne said:


> Compatible, perhaps not. But it has had an impact on the base, with 47% of Republicans saying they weren’t likely to get vaccinated this last summer. With the sheer size of the audience this group has for their misinformation at this point, along with growing influence of media outlets willing to pass along the misinformation, politicians have to at least take it into account, which pulls the whole party towards the fringe.
> 
> Even if Trump gets abandoned by his base, I don’t think it means we’ll see the party back away from the fringe.



I don’t disagree, but without massive voter suppression, the chaos works against them for presidential elections. 


———-
Long overdue, time to rethink what masks we use. I like (3-layer) cloth masks for outdoors interactions (dropping my kids off). With omicron, i guess cloth masks won’t cut it anymore when I only interact with healthy vaccinated people. For indoors crowds, N95, for indoors interactions with strangers surgical masks. And I’m sticking to the faceshield+N95 for patient care. 









						Why you should upgrade your mask as the Omicron variant spreads | CNN
					

As the Omicron variant spreads, it's time to upgrade from your cloth face masks. Experts explain why medical-grade masks -- such as surgical/disposable masks and N95 and KN95 respirators -- are better options now and what people should do with the cloth masks they already have.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

Imagine if the president after this guy, did something like this instead of downplaying vaccines until this year.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1474404739047694341/


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1473382140976979983/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1473447030546747394/


----------



## Alli

Talked to a former classmate this morning. She is devastated. She was supposed to have left this evening for Pakistan to visit her mother, who had been hurt in a fall. Took her PCU test this morning and it came back positive. She could not find anywhere to purchase another kit or get a test in case it was a false negative.

So yea, we are very short here in the US.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> Talked to a former classmate this morning. She is devastated. She was supposed to have left this evening for Pakistan to visit her mother, who had been hurt in a fall. Took her PCU test this morning and it came back positive. She could not find anywhere to purchase another kit or get a test in case it was a false negative.
> 
> So yea, we are very short here in the US.



It's crazy out there right now and everyone seems to be scrambling again.


----------



## Herdfan

When you lose the WaPo ..........



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/22/president-biden-is-failing-covid-19/


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> When you lose the WaPo ..........
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/22/president-biden-is-failing-covid-19/



You are aware that Hugh Hewitt, George Will, and Henry Olsen, along with other conservative columnists, are regular contributors to the opinion page at the Post, right?


----------



## Hrafn

SuperMatt said:


> You are aware that Hugh Hewitt, George Will, and Henry Olsen, along with other conservative columnists, are regular contributors to the opinion page at the Post, right?



You know herdfan as a magat has to pwn the libs


----------



## SuperMatt

Hrafn said:


> You know herdfan as a magat has to pwn the libs



How many do you have to PWN to get a MAGA merit badge?


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> When you lose the WaPo ..........
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/22/president-biden-is-failing-covid-19/



I read this piece the other day. Biden hasn't "lost" the Washington Post, it's one epidemiologist giving his opinion, and characterizing the administration's COVID response as failing is a bit much compared to the last government's response, which included letting an incompetent like Scott Atlas run the show.

I think the author makes valid points about more needing to be done, especially massively expanding testing, providing high quality masks, enabling global vaccination, and improving ventilation. But some of these things are far easier said than done, especially when dealing with an entire political party and media segment that refuse to help or at least stay out of the way.

As long as people continue to view this though a political lens, we will all lose.


----------



## Hrafn

SuperMatt said:


> How many do you have to PWN to get a MAGA merit badge?



42?   Uh…”good people?”

LET’S GO BRANDEN!


----------



## Herdfan

Hrafn said:


> LET’S GO BRANDEN!




"I agree".


----------



## SuperMatt

Roller said:


> I read this piece the other day. Biden hasn't "lost" the Washington Post, it's one epidemiologist giving his opinion, and characterizing the administration's COVID response as failing is a bit much compared to the last government's response, which included letting an incompetent like Scott Atlas run the show.
> 
> I think the author makes valid points about more needing to be done, especially massively expanding testing, providing high quality masks, enabling global vaccination, and improving ventilation. But some of these things are far easier said than done, especially when dealing with an entire political party and media segment that refuse to help or at least stay out of the way.
> 
> As long as people continue to view this though a political lens, we will all lose.



I think the initial plan was “get everybody vaccinated” but millions of people would rather take their chances. It’s a difficult problem to solve in light of that.


----------



## Eric

> LET’S GO BRANDEN!





Herdfan said:


> "I agree".



Working out swimmingly, friend of yours?









						NASCAR driver who unintentionally sparked ‘Let’s Go Brandon’ chant says corporations don’t want to sponsor him
					

NASCAR driver Brandon Brown says corporations have hesitated sponsoring him after "Let's Go, Brandon!" chants went viral




					www.foxbusiness.com
				






> The NASCAR driver who recently rose in fame after unintentionally sparking the "Let’s Go Brandon!" phrase says he’s had a hard time finding corporate sponsors following the chant going viral.
> 
> "It got extremely difficult for us. … If you’re a national corporation, that means you sell to all consumers … and unfortunately, when you get dragged into the political arena, people want you to take a side,’" Brown told Sports Business Journal in a recent interview.


----------



## thekev

P_X said:


> It’s insane that Ghost in the shell predicted these events in a scope of 15 years.




You are talking about the laughing man right?


----------



## User.45

thekev said:


> You are talking about the laughing man right?



Indeed. But the next season is also about a stand alone complex.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> "I agree".



The only reasonable response to this is saying "I agree" and not mentioning it again. 
For a well-adapted adult, things like this become boring quickly and later they start feeling vicarious embarrassment. 

The first thing mom taught me when I started school was, if other kids (bullies) are calling me names, I shouldn't react. Once I mastered it, giving an unexpected response gave me back control of situations immediately. Smarter bullies tried to come up with new stuff. The dumb ones just repeated the same over and over and desperately high-fived themselves in the process. 

As you can see, this brings me memories.


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> Working out swimmingly, friend of yours?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NASCAR driver who unintentionally sparked ‘Let’s Go Brandon’ chant says corporations don’t want to sponsor him
> 
> 
> NASCAR driver Brandon Brown says corporations have hesitated sponsoring him after "Let's Go, Brandon!" chants went viral
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxbusiness.com



Another victim of Trump-world. The people who repeat that slogan are brain-dead sheep.


----------



## Pumbaa

P_X said:


> One of my collaborators is in Sweden right now and we got a chuckle about the stark difference in COVID precautions the moment he enters Denmark...




Speaking of Denmark… 



> Denmark's daily infection total exceeded 15,000 for the first time, with health authorities registering 16,164 Covid-19 cases in 24 hours.
> 
> The country of 5.8 million people has the world's highest infection rate, with 1,612 cases per 100,000 people.












						Denmark, Iceland report record Covid cases as Omicron surges
					

Both Nordic nations had some of Europe's lowest infection rates before Omicron's arrival.



					www.livemint.com


----------



## User.45

Pumbaa said:


> Speaking of Denmark…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Denmark, Iceland report record Covid cases as Omicron surges
> 
> 
> Both Nordic nations had some of Europe's lowest infection rates before Omicron's arrival.
> 
> 
> 
> www.livemint.com



Xmas is a superspreader event. They also probably have to lower their masks to understand each other. Sorry, bad joke.

By the way, Anybody’s praise of Sweden’s decision to euthanize their elderly in 2020 still pisses me off.


----------



## shadow puppet

P_X said:


> By the way, Anybody’s praise of Sweden’s decision to euthanize their elderly in 2020 still pisses me off.



Wait.  WHUT?!!


----------



## User.45

shadow puppet said:


> Wait.  WHUT?!!



I was a little facetious, but sadly just a little bit, early on (Feb 2020) it was clear that mortality was ~15% in the elderly population and thus the vast majority of casualties would be retirement age. So their policy on non-intervention was a sacrifice of the elderly, to favor the working age. They'll save a lot of money on not having to pay social security costs for those who died many years earlier than expected due to COVID.


----------



## Pumbaa

P_X said:


> Xmas is a superspreader event. They also probably have to live their masks to understand each other. Sorry, bad joke.







P_X said:


> By the way, Anybody’s praise of Sweden’s decision to euthanize their elderly in 2020 still pisses me off.



Haven’t seen much (or any) of that praise locally but I can imagine certain outside groups being stupid like that. The “grandparents wouldn’t want to sacrifice their grandchildren’s economic future” crowd over there, for example…

I am looking forward to some time in the future when a more complete picture is available. What did different countries/regions do right, what did they do wrong, what lessons can be learned, how can we be more prepared next time?

Something that really pisses me off is everyone just looking at a snapshot and then praise themselves because their numbers are better and assume that the reason the numbers are better is 100% their actions being better. Like early in the pandemic when some Norwegian dude explained why they were doing so much better than Sweden, listing a bunch of reasons that all sure sounded like good measures to take. One of those things was lots and lots of testing in the elderly care. Great idea for sure. Except that the dude also bragged about the tests not having found any positive cases there so far… Duuuuuude. If your tests didn’t catch anything they did not save anyone either, so they can’t be a reason for your numbers being better right now. Same with all the other measures, likely good things but no data to support them actually having made a difference so far.


----------



## Pumbaa

shadow puppet said:


> Wait.  WHUT?!!



Well, you see, 2019 was a bad year, not nearly enough old farts biting the dust, so we had to do something radical to make the numbers more manageable.


----------



## lizkat

Pumbaa said:


> Well, you see, 2019 was a bad year, not nearly enough old farts biting the dust, so we had to do something radical to make the numbers more manageable.




It's a boomer thing, this aversion to leaving the planet at all, never mind over something like a virus.   They figure that they invented rock'n'roll and so their prize for that should of course be immortality.

I'm more than half serious about this.   Most of the boomers are going to be like the rest of us humans (older or younger)  and die from a fall or from studied neglect of some chronic and preventable health issue.    But a lot of them for some reason seem to figure they are special and exempt from almost all the rules, so why not also spared from dying of something at some point?  The boomers will be  trying to sue hospitals from beyond the grave,  claiming they were mistreated during covid-19.   If there is a just God, he or she will smooth their path to hell for being unforgivably ungrateful to front line health care workers.

What really ticks me off though is boomers' expectation that someone else will step in and fix climate change at the list minute "if it starts looking serious".  In the meantime please don't mess with their god-given right to make a buck in the market because they've had to shell out so much to help their offspring weather the storms of capitalism and covid and it can only be a matter of time until someone stupider than they manages to pop the ongoing mania for these frothy markets. Jesus Christ!

Yeah I'm back to feeling cynical today.  I make the mistake of deciding to catch up with some newspaper subscriptions and read too far in past the feel-good page ones about an upcoming better New Year and vicarious back-pats over JWST launch.

EDIT:   I have been properly enough reprimanded for such extensive generalizations.   I'm gonna excerpt this post though and mail it to a few people who do know some of the same, and many, boomers I had in mind while rather carelessly crafting  the post.     My apology is genuine:  I don't like being stereotyped either.


----------



## shadow puppet

I really hate boomer talk and blame.  Although I land in boomer land (barely), I am nothing like you described.  I wish people wouldn't assume my thoughts or approach to things.  Especially when they don't even know me.


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> I really hate boomer talk and blame.  Although I land in boomer land (barely), I am nothing like you described.  I wish people wouldn't assume my thoughts or approach to things.  Especially when they don't even know me.




You're entirely right.  I know too many of the wrong sort of boomers, but I should not generalize in quite such an unqualified  manner. I apologize and I bothered to edit my post (but I'm not taking it down).


----------



## shadow puppet

lizkat said:


> You're entirely right.  I know too many of the wrong sort of boomers, but I should not generalize in quite such an unqualified  manner. I apologize and I bothered to edit my post (but I'm not taking it down).



I appreciate you hearing me out.  It's just frustrating on so many levels to hear all the derogatory Boomer talk when I am nothing like how they are described.  I barely make it in that group as it is, only by a couple years.  It's probably similar for Millennials who are often grouped together.


----------



## Renzatic

shadow puppet said:


> I appreciate you hearing me out.  It's just frustrating on so many levels to hear all the derogatory Boomer talk when I am nothing like how they are described.  I barely make it in that group as it is, only by a couple years.  It's probably similar for Millennials who are often grouped together.




It’s better than being Gen-X, who are called millennials by the boomers, and boomers by the millennials.

…not that any of us really give a damn either way.


----------



## User.45

Pumbaa said:


> I am looking forward to some time in the future when a more complete picture is available. What did different countries/regions do right, what did they do wrong, what lessons can be learned, how can we be more prepared next time?
> 
> Something that really pisses me off is everyone just looking at a snapshot and then praise themselves because their numbers are better and assume that the reason the numbers are better is 100% their actions being better. Like early in the pandemic when some Norwegian dude explained why they were doing so much better than Sweden, listing a bunch of reasons that all sure sounded like good measures to take. One of those things was lots and lots of testing in the elderly care. Great idea for sure. Except that the dude also bragged about the tests not having found any positive cases there so far… Duuuuuude. If your tests didn’t catch anything they did not save anyone either, so they can’t be a reason for your numbers being better right now. Same with all the other measures, likely good things but no data to support them actually having made a difference so far.



Agree fully. We can significantly mitigate and slightly delay waves, but we don't have full control over the periodicity of the pandemic and performance should be evaluated wave-by-wave. But that said the no lockdown sort-of approach is limited to the first (European) COVID wave, and all I can say, that according to a value system that equally values life regardless of the age of the person, the Swedish approach was awful. It's also pretty devastating considering that Swedes are one of the healthiest in the world, yet did worse on most outcome measures I've seen compared to neighboring Norway or Denmark. They used early mortality data, assumed permanent herd immunity (again, by late April we had data showing plummeting antibody levels postinfection), while the literature had very very little data on long-term sequelae of the disease in young people. That's just not how you manage a new pathogen.


----------



## Pumbaa

P_X said:


> Agree fully. We can significantly mitigate and slightly delay waves, but we don't have full control over the periodicity of the pandemic and performance should be evaluated wave-by-wave. But that said the no lockdown sort-of approach is limited to the first (European) COVID wave, and all I can say, that according to a value system that equally values life regardless of the age of the person, the Swedish approach was awful. It's also pretty devastating considering that Swedes are one of the healthiest in the world, yet did worse on most outcome measures I've seen compared to neighboring Norway or Denmark. They used early mortality data, assumed permanent herd immunity (again, by late April we had data showing plummeting antibody levels postinfection), while the literature had very very little data on long-term sequelae of the disease in young people. That's just not how you manage a new pathogen.



Not to mention the hesitancy to recommend masks… 

Lockdowns were not an option due the laws at the time, one of many flaws in the pandemic response arsenal. I’m looking forward to the final report from the “Corona Commission“, the latest interim report is scathing.



> The Commission’s most important overall conclusions based on the review carried out to date and presented in this report are:
> • Sweden’s handling of the pandemic has been marked by a slowness of response. The initial disease prevention and control measures were insufficient to stop or even substantially limit the spread of the virus in the country.
> • The path chosen by Sweden has placed the emphasis on disease prevention and control measures based on a voluntary approach and personal responsibility, rather than more intrusive interventions.
> • Sweden’s pandemic preparedness was inadequate.
> • Existing communicable diseases legislation was and is inadequate to respond to a serious epidemic or pandemic outbreak.
> • Sweden’s system of communicable disease prevention and control was and is decentralised and fragmented in a way that makes it unclear who has overall responsibility when the country is hit by a serious infectious disease.
> • The health care system has been able, at short notice, to adapt and to scale up care for people with COVID-19. This is largely thanks to its employees. Adaptation has been achieved at the price of extreme pressure on staff and of cancelled and postponed care. We will therefore live with the consequences of the pandemic for a long time to come.
> • In several areas there is a problematic lack of data, making it harder to monitor the pandemic while it is in progress and to satisfactorily evaluate its management when it is over.


----------



## Herdfan

Is over-vaccinating really an issue?









						Experts warn dishing out fourth jabs in spring may be pointless
					

EXCLUSIVE: Experts have warned against offer a second Covid booster arguing it is not practical to do so every three months. Claims of Omicron as a 'natural vaccine' are debatable experts say.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




Also, I see it mainly in non-US press about Omicron being the thing that ends the pandemic because 1) everyone is going to get it, vaccinated or not and 2) it confers better immunity then previous strains.

Thoughts?


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Is over-vaccinating really an issue?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experts warn dishing out fourth jabs in spring may be pointless
> 
> 
> EXCLUSIVE: Experts have warned against offer a second Covid booster arguing it is not practical to do so every three months. Claims of Omicron as a 'natural vaccine' are debatable experts say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I see it mainly in non-US press about Omicron being the thing that ends the pandemic because 1) everyone is going to get it, vaccinated or not and 2) it confers better immunity then previous strains.
> 
> Thoughts?



I have not seen any stories about catching Omicron giving people better immunity than catching another variant of the virus. The article you linked doesn’t state that, so perhaps can you link to where you saw that?

Although saying “everybody” will catch it is a bit of an exaggeration, it is much more contagious.

I do hope Omicron does truly turn out to be far less lethal than the other variants. I think it will be good news, especially for the unvaccinated. The stories of people dying because they were too stubborn to get a vaccine are sad to me.

I read a story yesterday about testing in mice and hamsters. They found Omicron did not have the same negative effect on their lungs that the other variants did.









						Studies Suggest Why Omicron Is Less Severe: It Spares the Lungs
					

A spate of new studies on lab animals and human tissues are providing the first indication of why the omicron variant causes milder disease than previous versions of the coronavirus. In studies on mice and hamsters, omicron produced less-damaging infections, often limited largely to the upper...




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## fischersd

Yep, we don't have enough data on Omicron yet to indicate that it could bring all of this to an end, but there's a lot of hoping that it is.  (obviously, as we're all fucking tired of living this way!)



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/dr-bonnie-henry-year-ender-1.6301202
		


Our Provincial Health Officer is also an infectious disease expert.  BC's been very lucky to have her!  

Here's hoping we get through the 5th wave without having to do any lockdowns as we've seen in some geographies!


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> I have not seen any stories about catching Omicron giving people better immunity than catching another variant of the virus. The article you linked doesn’t state that, so perhaps can you link to where you saw that?



Here is one.  It's a small study out of South Africa pointing to better protection against Delta:









						Omicron infection appears to protect against Covid delta variant and could displace it, South Africa study finds
					

If omicron also proves less severe than delta, Covid infections could prove less disruptive to society, according to South African scientists.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Here is one.  It's a small study out of South Africa pointing to better protection against Delta:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron infection appears to protect against Covid delta variant and could displace it, South Africa study finds
> 
> 
> If omicron also proves less severe than delta, Covid infections could prove less disruptive to society, according to South African scientists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com



Interesting. They don’t seem to be saying Omicron exposure gives more immunity than Delta exposure. I think they are saying omicron exposure + vaccine might give better resistance to Delta. Plus, it’s only 13 people.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Is over-vaccinating really an issue?



Without going through the entire article. As I said before, the booster shots' value depends on their timing relative to waves. So yes, *boosting* at the the end of a huge wave is a poor strategic choice.


Herdfan said:


> Experts warn dishing out fourth jabs in spring may be pointless
> 
> 
> EXCLUSIVE: Experts have warned against offer a second Covid booster arguing it is not practical to do so every three months. Claims of Omicron as a 'natural vaccine' are debatable experts say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I see it mainly in non-US press about Omicron being the thing that ends the pandemic because 1) everyone is going to get it, vaccinated or not and 2) it confers better immunity then previous strains.
> 
> Thoughts?



It boils down to what we consider "the pandemic". COVID is here to stay, like influenza. With Omicron, I suspect we are bound to reach full coverage in terms of exposure, either through vaccine, infection, or both. Cellular immunity defends against severe disease, lasts longer, and is much harder to monitor and predict. "Better immunity" can mean many things, lower risk of reinfection? Longer durability? Or some surrogate markers like higher antibody titers, or better antibody crosstalk among strains? If we knew the answer to these questions already, it would mean we have the validated biomarkers that I mentioned.


----------



## Roller

The only Omicron characteristic on which there's near-universal agreement is that it is extremely transmissible compared to Delta, prior variants of concern, and the original strain. Conditions that wouldn't have been too problematic previously (e.g., being indoors with people who are using masks that are poor and/or not worn properly, which is common) now pose a risk of infection. Hence the rapidly rising number of people with symptoms who are flooding emergency departments and testing centers, as well as massively overburdened inpatient units and ICUs that are coping with shortages caused by infected and departing staff. This means less care for all the other illnesses that require it.

That many people with Omicron COVID-19 will have mild or even no symptoms is helpful, but won't by itself avert the above. And even some individuals without severe disease will suffer from long-COVID. That's why pronouncements like Marco Rubio's “people in the hospital for car accidents testing positive isn’t a surge” are dangerous and idiotic. Does he think hospitals are overcrowded because they're admitting patients just because they're COVID-positive?

It may turn out that Omicron confers greater immune protection than other SARS-CoV-2 variants, but it's far too early to say and shouldn't be counted upon, as attractive as that may be.


----------



## User.45

Roller said:


> The only Omicron characteristic on which there's near-universal agreement is that it is extremely transmissible compared to Delta, prior variants of concern, and the original strain. Conditions that wouldn't have been too problematic previously (e.g., being indoors with people who are using masks that are poor and/or not worn properly, which is common) now pose a risk of infection. Hence the rapidly rising number of people with symptoms who are flooding emergency departments and testing centers, as well as massively overburdened inpatient units and ICUs that are coping with shortages caused by infected and departing staff. This means less care for all the other illnesses that require it.
> 
> That many people with Omicron COVID-19 will have mild or even no symptoms is helpful, but won't by itself avert the above. And even some individuals without severe disease will suffer from long-COVID. That's why pronouncements like Marco Rubio's “people in the hospital for car accidents testing positive isn’t a surge” are dangerous and idiotic. Does he think hospitals are overcrowded because they're admitting patients just because they're COVID-positive?
> 
> It may turn out that Omicron confers greater immune protection than other SARS-CoV-2 variants, but it's far too early to say and shouldn't be counted upon, as attractive as that may be.



And COVID kills by saturating hospital capacities. So even a "milder" variant can punch above it's weight by just depleting healthcare resources. 

The healthcare staffing shortage is insane at this point. Meanwhile the hospital's COVID admissions quadrupled in a month. My wife is offered extra ICU shifts for double pay at this point, and we had to deviate from my research protocol because of lack of staff too. Yet, my neighborhood had NYE parties like nothing's going on.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> And COVID kills by saturating hospital capacities. So even a "milder" variant can punch above it's weight by just depleting healthcare resources.
> 
> The healthcare staffing shortage is insane at this point. Meanwhile the hospital's COVID admissions quadrupled in a month. My wife is offered extra ICU shifts for double pay at this point, and we had to deviate from my research protocol because of lack of staff too. Yet, my neighborhood had NYE parties like nothing's going on.



And so many are out there without masks nor a second thought. It's like society has just given up and succumbed to it, meanwhile they simply couldn't care less about the burden on healthcare workers. You can't imagine anyone would've knowingly signed on for such a task, this virus has shown us just how selfish so many people are, sticking their middle finger up at such simple measures. It's mind boggling frankly.


----------



## Alli

Eric said:


> And so many are out there without masks nor a second thought. It's like society has just given up and succumbed to it, meanwhile they simply couldn't care less about the burden on healthcare workers. You can't imagine anyone would've knowingly signed on for such a task, this virus has shown us just how selfish so many people are, sticking their middle finger up at such simple measures. It's mind boggling frankly.



We went to Publix yesterday. Almost no masks. And this is in a city bordering on a thousand new cases a day.


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> We went to Publix yesterday. Almost no masks. And this is in a city bordering on a thousand new cases a day.




A recipe for rapid passage of omicron, big maybe.    Hope the toll on hospitals and morgues doesn't skyrocket.


----------



## Thomas Veil

I have this vision of someone going Code Blue in one hospital room, and there's no one to try to save him because they're all in another room with someone else who's going Code Blue.


----------



## Roller

Thomas Veil said:


> I have this vision of someone going Code Blue in one hospital room, and there's no one to try to save him because they're all in another room with someone else who's going Code Blue.



Care suffers as hospitals attempt to deal with insufficient staffing by recruiting physicians, nurses, and other professionals to work in unfamiliar settings like ICUs. Try as they might, people who aren't trained and don't have the experience in providing critical care will be less effective and efficient. Eventually, the situation deteriorates to require invocation of crisis standards of care, where interventions are based on considerations such as a patient's likelihood of survival or may be withheld from all people in a particular category such as cardiac arrest.​


----------



## shadow puppet

Another variant already? 

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1478100261386301447/


----------



## User.45

shadow puppet said:


> Another variant already?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1478100261386301447/



It’s an RNA virus. RNA has the reliability of a first gen USB flash drive so mutations will happen all the time. As the article says, it takes way more to become a Variant of Concern.


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> Another variant already?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1478100261386301447/




From a French scientist,  one may have hoped for a covid variant name more romantic than B16402...


----------



## shadow puppet

P_X said:


> It’s an RNA virus. RNA has the reliability of a first gen USB flash drive so mutations will happen all the time. As the article says, it takes way more to become a Variant of Concern.



Not doubting your expertise but why is it being referred to a "variant" within that discussion thread? Or am I having a Homer moment?


----------



## User.45

shadow puppet said:


> Not doubting your expertise but why is it being referred to a "variant" within that discussion thread? Or am I having a Homer moment?



Variant per my definition (there isn’t really a standardized definition) only means it has a constellation of mutations that persist over generations of the virus. The persistence can imply a sort of evolutionary advantage, but it really depends on the rate of replication errors in a virus, and that’s definitely beyond my expertise. But on it’s own this info is just insufficient for the non-virologists/non-epidemiologists to be concerned about. It’s stuff that happens all the time, we just hadn’t observed it ourselves.


----------



## Pumbaa

lizkat said:


> From a French scientist,  one may have hoped for a covid variant name more romantic than B16402...



Miserable. But it could kinda work. Try singing it. Just replace “Prisoner 24601” with “B16402”.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1480096747833765888/


> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?





> A strain of Covid-19 that combines delta and omicron was found in Cyprus, according to Leondios Kostrikis, professor of biological sciences at the University of Cyprus and head of the Laboratory of Biotechnology and Molecular Virology.
> 
> “There are currently omicron and delta co-infections and we found this strain that is a combination of these two,” Kostrikis said in an interview with Sigma TV Friday. The discovery was named “deltacron” due to the identification of omicron-like genetic signatures within the delta genomes, he said.
> 
> Kostrikis and his team have identified 25 such cases and the statistical analysis shows that the relative frequency of the combined infection is higher among patients hospitalized due to Covid-19 as compared to non-hospitalized patients. The sequences of the 25 deltacron cases were sent to GISAID, the international database that tracks changes in the virus, on Jan. 7.
> 
> “We will see in the future if this strain is more pathological or more contagious or if it will prevail” over delta and omicron, he said. But his personal view is that this strain will also be displaced by the highly contagious omicron variant.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1480096747833765888/






> *But his personal view is that this strain will also be displaced by the highly contagious omicron variant.*



Watching evolution realtime. That said this is some (weak) corroboration of my hypothesis that Delta is still contributing to hospitalizations and there is a parallel Delta pandemic. Hospitalization rates in the Omicron era appear one fourth that of Delta. The issue is the case count is 4-fold higher too and rising. 

This is the point where physicians are kindly asked to take coverage shifts to help out and non-COVID ICUs start partitioning off beds for COVID care. This is really bad, and I think the fact that I've never seen this many physicians and nurses (who are vaccinated and do wear a mask appropriately) get COVID is just telling how different Omicron's infectivity is.

*People, please, upgrade your masks.* You can't rely on cloth masks anymore.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1480107612284678147/


----------



## Herdfan

I don't see this happening in the US for purely political reasons.









						Europe Slowly Starts to Consider Treating Covid Like the Flu
					

The idea has gradually been gaining traction and could prompt a re-evaluation of government strategies on dealing with the virus.




					www.bloombergquint.com


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> I don't see this happening in the US for purely political reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Europe Slowly Starts to Consider Treating Covid Like the Flu
> 
> 
> The idea has gradually been gaining traction and could prompt a re-evaluation of government strategies on dealing with the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloombergquint.com



Not sure what you mean, we're already asking people to work while they have the virus. Seems to me like they're taking their lead from us.


----------



## Citysnaps

Rand Paul again going off the rails today questioning Dr. Fauci in a Senate committee hearing. Jeeeez.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> Not sure what you mean, we're already asking people to work while they have the virus. Seems to me like they're taking their lead from us.




Because Trump said it was like the flu.  There is no way the media and Dems can start comparing it to the flu.  The political fallout would be enormous.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Because Trump said it was like the flu.  There is no way the media and Dems can start comparing it to the flu.  The political fallout would be enormous.



I'm not sure about the media but there is no comparison, and Donald Trump was the worst, most ignorant person that could've been in charge during that time. Say what you want about Biden but he's at least sane and trying, not doing stupid things like questioning the ingestion of bleach and quoting conspiracy theories.

BTW - Scientific reality check for anyone comparing it to the flu...


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Because Trump said it was like the flu.  There is no way the media and Dems can start comparing it to the flu.  The political fallout would be enormous.



I believe you are misreading the politics badly. Trump intentionally lied about the severity of the disease. IMO, his narcissistic tendencies made it impossible for him to accept that doctors would control the narrative, so he created his own.

Democrats repeatedly said they would follow the doctors and scientists’ recommendations. If the omicron variant turns out to be no more dangerous than the common cold, you seem to think democrats would lie about that just to contradict Trump?

People would be relieved if restrictions were eased and normalcy returned. Only the most extreme right-wingers would stick to the nonsense of “I told you all along it was just the flu” and conveniently ignore almost a million dead Americans. 

Both sides are NOT the same. Trump made that more obvious than ever before.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> Because Trump said it was like the flu.  There is no way the media and Dems can start comparing it to the flu.  The political fallout would be enormous.




Taking this specific example out of it, I believe in our current political environment "Even a broken clock is right twice a day" no longer applies.  The other side is going to always say the broken clock is never right, even when a working clock and the broken clock read the same time when put next to each other.  You're supposed to ignore that and focus on the clock being broken.   That's why on one side Fauci is an unquestionable saint and on the other he is satan.


----------



## JayMysteri0

FFS



> COVID-19
> ·
> 2 hours ago
> 
> An interview with CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky has been edited and taken out of context, fact-checkers report
> Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky appeared on Good Morning America on Friday and discussed a recent study from the CDC on Americans vaccinated against COVID-19. The study found that among 1,228,664 vaccinated individuals, 36 died of COVID-19, and 28 of the 36 (roughly 78%) had four or more risk factors, also known as comorbidities. Dr. Walensky's interview was shortened for broadcast time, which led to her analysis of the data to be misinterpreted by some.





> What you need to know:
> 
> - A Good Morning America interview with CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky was shortened for time, according to multiple reports - Dr. Walensky referenced a new study from the CDC which found that 36 out of 1,228,664 patients vaccinated against COVID-19 died of the virus, and roughly 78% of those 36 had 'at least four comorbidities'
> 
> - Footage of the shortened interview circulated leading some to misinterpret the data



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1480912946364653568/

Great ing work GMA!  Now we have to put up with more intentional dumb@$$ery from people spouting the same incorrect shit like they've doing before endlessly.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> I believe you are misreading the politics badly. Trump intentionally lied about the severity of the disease. IMO, his narcissistic tendencies made it impossible for him to accept that doctors would control the narrative, so he created his own.
> 
> Democrats repeatedly said they would follow the doctors and scientists’ recommendations. If the omicron variant turns out to be no more dangerous than the common cold, you seem to think democrats would lie about that just to contradict Trump?




Maybe I am.  But I simply don't think that after 2 years of saying it is NOT the same as the flu they can shift gears and say it is.  All it would do is give ammo to those who are saying we have been lied to.


----------



## rdrr

SuperMatt said:


> I believe you are misreading the politics badly. Trump intentionally lied about the severity of the disease. IMO, his narcissistic tendencies made it impossible for him to accept that doctors would control the narrative, so he created his own.
> 
> Democrats repeatedly said they would follow the doctors and scientists’ recommendations. If the omicron variant turns out to be no more dangerous than the common cold, you seem to think democrats would lie about that just to contradict Trump?
> 
> People would be relieved if restrictions were eased and normalcy returned. Only the most extreme right-wingers would stick to the nonsense of “I told you all along it was just the flu” and conveniently ignore almost a million dead Americans.
> 
> Both sides are NOT the same. Trump made that more obvious than ever before.



I hate to make this point because I am sounding like I am moving the goal posts, but right now there are hospitals completely overwhelmed.  So much so it was reported that UMass Medical has 500 staff/doctors out sick, and called in the guard to help.   People are dying related to Omicron not just because of it.   Every night for the last two weeks or so, I am reading the tweet from Boston EMS "<insert PM time here> No BLS available."  Meaning you are on your own if you have a heart attack.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Maybe I am.  But I simply don't think that after 2 years of saying it is NOT the same as the flu they can shift gears and say it is.  All it would do is give ammo to those who are saying we have been lied to.




I’m not even sure how to approach the absurdity of this statement. Let’s start with: *what Democratic politicians are saying that it is like the flu?*


----------



## JayMysteri0

FFS, ...again

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1480770618496794626/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1480775653398089728/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Herdfan said:


> Maybe I am.  But I simply don't think that after 2 years of saying it is NOT the same as the flu they can shift gears and say it is.  All it would do is give ammo to those who are saying we have been lied to.



Let's keep it .

Such individuals have been screaming they've been lied to, whether or not they've EVER been lied to since this all started.

It is not about being lied to, misinterpreting anything, information withheld, or whatever.  Those individuals WANT to hear one thing, and when they don't,  they KNOW somehow they are being lied to.  Thus we get the endless battery of covid "experts" whose knowledge has been honed from the finest & furthest ends of FB & Reddit.  Because science & people who use it have been lying to them.

Those people don't need ammo.  They've been shooting blanks informationally speaking, and are quite happy with that.

What's the phrase?  "Ignorance is..."


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> I don't see this happening in the US for purely political reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Europe Slowly Starts to Consider Treating Covid Like the Flu
> 
> 
> The idea has gradually been gaining traction and could prompt a re-evaluation of government strategies on dealing with the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloombergquint.com



Wrong. Influenza outbreaks rarely saturate hospital capacities, and definitely never multiple times a year. So even Omicron is 10x 
worse than the worst modern influenza outbreak (Thanks @Eric for showing the data). Treating healthcare workers as an infinite resource is a grave mistake, but if we were real capitalists, the market would correct peoples behavior. If people's insurance premiums reflected their modifiable risk of contributing to the pandemic, people would quickly become compliant with public health measures.



Herdfan said:


> Because Trump said it was like the flu.  There is no way the media and Dems can start comparing it to the flu.  The political fallout would be enormous.



Trump was caught on a cheap lie with the Flu statement, which he himself admitted to. So are you asking Dems to start repeating the obvious lie of their political opponent that would still be a lie at present day? Get a grip, dude.  

You're trying politicize objective things that have nothing to do with politics: this is not the flu. Even the lowest COVID trough is higher than the highest Flu peak. 

The political thing is that the USA has 36M antivaxxer adults, the majority of whom expect things to also go business as usual.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> Maybe I am.  But I simply don't think that after 2 years of saying it is NOT the same as the flu they can shift gears and say it is.  All it would do is give ammo to those who are saying we have been lied to.




That's what I kind of alluded to earlier, the whole give them an inch and they'll take a mile cliche, "If liberals are now skeptical of 5% of the data and policies then we were correct on 100% of our views 100% of the time!"  They won't see it as an opportunity to maybe also question their own unwavering beliefs.


----------



## User.45

citypix said:


> Rand Paul again going off the rails today questioning Dr. Fauci in a Senate committee hearing. Jeeeez.



I can't listen to these anymore, because it's been getting increasingly absurd by the day and the inverse intellectual and power differential just boils my blood. Rand gets a firm condemnation from actual practicing physicians and that's it. Fauci and his family gets death threats. Though I have to admit, I like Rand's neighbor more and more by the day.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Maybe I am.  But I simply don't think that after 2 years of saying it is NOT the same as the flu they can shift gears and say it is.  All it would do is give ammo to those who are saying we have been lied to.



OK. So you've been harping on "it's the flu" thing. How is it the flu, explain. Can you actually engage in the intellectual part of the discussion?
Ironically you can look at my post history making statements about this very thing...


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> I’m not even sure how to approach the absurdity of this statement. Let’s start with: *what Democratic politicians are saying that it is like the flu?*




None yet.  Which was the point.  They can't.

Did you read the original article I posted?


----------



## Herdfan

P_X said:


> OK. So you've been harping on "it's the flu" thing. How is it the flu, explain. Can you actually engage in the intellectual part of the discussion?
> Ironically you can look at my post history making statements about this very thing...




Same question to you.  Did you read even the headline of the article I posted?

For the record, I am not saying it is like the flu.


----------



## SuperMatt

.


Herdfan said:


> None yet.  Which was the point.  They can't.
> 
> Did you read the original article I posted?



Once again, you are using hypotheticals. “Wouldn’t it be bad if Democrats did X”? What a silly hypothetical.

As for the article, you quoted a Bloomberg *author* who compared this to the flu. Not a government official of any country using that term, but an author for a right-leaning news source. Then you parlayed it to ”wow it would be bad if Democrats compared this to the flu.” WTF? It would also be bad if Democrats told people to do most things that Trump suggested about COVID. That’s why they haven’t and won’t.

It seems that perhaps YOU didn’t read the article… or simply decided to take multiple leaps of logic to stir things up.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> .
> 
> Once again, you are using hypotheticals. “Wouldn’t it be bad if Democrats did X”? What a silly hypothetical.
> 
> As for the article, you quoted a Bloomberg *author* who compared this to the flu. Not a government official of any country using that term, but an author for a right-leaning news source. Then you parlayed it to ”wow it would be bad if Democrats compared this to the flu.” WTF? It would also be bad if Democrats told people to do most things that Trump suggested about COVID. That’s why they haven’t and won’t.
> 
> It seems that perhaps YOU didn’t read the article… or simply decided to take multiple leaps of logic to stir things up.




First Bloomberg is a Left-leaning publication according to Media Bias.

And not trying to stir anything up.  Just making an observation.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> First Bloomberg is a Left-leaning publication according to Media Bias.
> 
> And not trying to stir anything up.  Just making an observation.



Your observation isn’t an observation though. It’s a hypothetical. That you made up. To imply that Democrats would do something. You cannot observe that which never happened.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> *Your observation isn’t an observation though. It’s a hypothetical.* That you made up. To imply that Democrats would do something. You cannot observe that which never happened.




That's fair on the observation vs hypothetical.  But I did not make it up.  

On a similar point, I do think a portion of the country would go completely bat  if this were true:









						Cannabis compounds stop COVID virus from infecting human cells in lab study
					

In the study, the compounds bound to spike proteins found on the virus and blocked a step the pathogen uses to infect people.




					fortune.com


----------



## Renzatic

lizkat said:


> From a French scientist,  one may have hoped for a covid variant name more romantic than B16402...




Le Petit Punaise


----------



## SuperMatt

Quebec taxes the unvaccinated:



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/unvaccinated-health-contribution-quebec-1.6311054


----------



## fischersd

SuperMatt said:


> Quebec taxes the unvaccinated:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/unvaccinated-health-contribution-quebec-1.6311054



Yep, only fair that they pay more for healthcare if they're not doing the right things.  I hope all of the provinces pick up on that.

I figure it's only a matter of time until private insurers (benefits) companies do the same - either charge more for unvaccinated or disallow them.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Same question to you.  Did you read even the headline of the article I posted?
> 
> For the record, I am not saying it is like the flu.



Well, as usual, I've probably spent more time reading this article than you did posting it. 

I again have no idea what you are trying to say beyond coming up with an imaginary story packaged into a non-sensical question, Tucker Carlson style. At least that guy looks like an idiot for money. What's you excuse?

Here's an actual good CNN Op Ed (rarity) from an ID guy from Sloan Kettering:








						I was relieved when my sons got mild Covid-19. Then I thought about this | CNN
					

Kent Sepkowitz writes about the temptation to throw caution to the wind and "let Covid rip" so that communities can get the worst of the pandemic over with. He details why that is a dangerous public health idea.




					www.cnn.com
				




I bet you'll like the Stalin reference in the end.


----------



## AG_PhamD

Herdfan said:


> That's fair on the observation vs hypothetical.  But I did not make it up.
> 
> On a similar point, I do think a portion of the country would go completely bat  if this were true:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cannabis compounds stop COVID virus from infecting human cells in lab study
> 
> 
> In the study, the compounds bound to spike proteins found on the virus and blocked a step the pathogen uses to infect people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fortune.com




Well, the two cannabinoid compounds in question are CBGA and CBDA, neither of which have psychotropic effects, at least in the sense of being able to get one “high”. The author actually claimed THC reduced the effectiveness of the aforementioned molecules. 

This article has gained a lot of attention, but at this point this is much like the early hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin studies in that the tests were done in a Petri dish. What happens outside the body is not the same as what happens within. Whether or not you can get the drug into the body, to the right parts of the body, in an adequate concentration for a long enough period of time, without inducing toxicity anywhere else in the body is the question. So there’s a ways to go before proving this actually works.

Many drugs we have are basically naturally occurring substances slightly modified to make them more practical, so maybe these molecules or derivatives have some utility. 

We already have 4 FDA approved pharmaceutical cannabinoids on the market, so approving a new cannabinoid wouldn’t exactly be radical change.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1481363437271732224/


----------



## SuperMatt

When Omicron started asserting itself, many were hopeful because it appeared to be less deadly. However, the fact that it is far more transmissible apparently has more than made up the difference. For a while, cases were going way up but deaths were not. Now, we are seeing almost 2,000 people dying a day again.



			https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html
		


It seems inevitable that a million or more people in America will die from this virus. Ever since the vaccine became widely available, at least 90% of those deaths were likely completely avoidable.


----------



## JayMysteri0




----------



## SuperMatt

Amazon is full of counterfeit N95 and KN95 masks, 60% of which don't offer the advertised protection.









						Those KN95 masks you just bought might not meet testing standards
					

A conversation with the "mask nerd" shows how difficult it can be to find a trustworthy mask.




					www.marketplace.org
				




As if I needed another reason to dislike that company...


----------



## Runs For Fun

SuperMatt said:


> Amazon is full of counterfeit N95 and KN95 masks, 60% of which don't offer the advertised protection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those KN95 masks you just bought might not meet testing standards
> 
> 
> A conversation with the "mask nerd" shows how difficult it can be to find a trustworthy mask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.marketplace.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As if I needed another reason to dislike that company...



Shocking! /s 

Amazon has gone to shit. Almost everything on there is just cheap generic junk. I really don't trust ordering anything from Amazon anymore.


----------



## ronntaylor

Runs For Fun said:


> Shocking! /s
> 
> Amazon has gone to shit. Almost everything on there is just cheap generic junk. I really don't trust ordering anything from Amazon anymore.



I try my best to go directly to the company if at all possible. That's what I did with BassDash for their hoodies. Took longer to arrive, but it didn't have the putrid Amazon fulfillment center smell and I get reward points for my purchases. I would say since the Pandemic, nearly 50% of items ordered are junk, counterfeit, or used even though sold as new. I've gotten more refunds/free shit in the past 18 months then I've gotten in the previous 20+ years combined.


----------



## Runs For Fun

ronntaylor said:


> I try my best to go directly to the company if at all possible. That's what I did with BassDash for their hoodies. Took longer to arrive, but it didn't have the putrid Amazon fulfillment center smell and I get reward points for my purchases. I would say since the Pandemic, nearly 50% of items ordered are junk, counterfeit, or used even though sold as new. I've gotten more refunds/free shit in the past 18 months then I've gotten in the previous 20+ years combined.



I've started doing the same. I'll just get it directly from the source. Might take longer but I know what I'm getting is legit. We actually did not renew our Prime membership when it expired recently.


----------



## ronntaylor

Runs For Fun said:


> I've started doing the same. I'll just get it directly from the source. Might take longer but I know what I'm getting is legit. We actually did not renew our Prime membership when it expired recently.



Unfortunately a good chunk of our time is spent in small town Virginia. So we have to rely on AMZ. Walmart actually is giving them a bit of competition for several items lately. There's a Walmart Superstore nearby and an AMZ fulfillment about 35-40 minutes away so we're covered if we really need something.


----------



## SuperMatt

A school board in rural Virginia is immediately pushing back on Glenn Youngkin’s executive order to get rid of masks in schools.









						Lynchburg City Schools to continue mask mandate after 7-2 vote
					

The Lynchburg City School Board held a special meeting Friday night -- ultimately deciding that come Monday, January 24, they will stick with their current COVID-19 protocol.  “At the end of the day, we are concerned about student achievement. We want to keep our students in school with a...




					wset.com
				






> “Lynchburg is at a 52% vaccination rate. Outbreaks are at an all-time high. Lynchburg is experiencing 400 new cases a day,” Anderson said.
> 
> Board members referred to those numbers when supporting their decision during the vote.






> "Executive orders don’t supersede laws, and I don’t want us to be part of a school board that uses children as political probes,” said Jeffrey Wooters, senior at E.C. Glass High School.


----------



## Herdfan

Biden administration to withdraw Covid-19 vaccination and testing regulation aimed at large businesses
					

The Biden administration is withdrawing its Covid-19 vaccination and testing regulation aimed at large businesses, following the Supreme Court's decision to block the rule earlier this month.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## shadow puppet

Damn. 
From NatGeo on IG:


> This scan is of a lung lobe from a 54-year-old male who died of COVID-19. Airspaces are colored with cyan, open blood vessels are colored in red, *and blocked, damaged blood vessels are colored in yellow..* See how this powerful new kind of x-ray scan provides more detail than ever before. HiP-CT Scan courtesy the European Synchrotron Radiation Facility


----------



## Herdfan

shadow puppet said:


> View attachment 11507




Smoker or not?  If known.


----------



## shadow puppet

Herdfan said:


> Smoker or not?  If known.



I did a search and several articles come up for "HiP-CT Scan courtesy the European Synchrotron Radiation Facility" with this image.  None mention the lung being from a smoker.  I *think* it would have been mentioned if this were the case.


----------



## SuperMatt

Interesting new story about COVID vaccine doses that are administered in your nose.



> Nasal vaccines may be the best way to prevent infections long term, because they provide protection exactly where it is needed to fend off the virus: the mucosal linings of the airways, where the coronavirus first lands.
> 
> Bharat Biotech is among the world’s leading vaccine manufacturers. Its best known product, Covaxin, is authorized to prevent Covid in India and many other countries. But its experimental nasal vaccine may prove to be the real game changer.












						The Covid Vaccine We Need Now May Not Be a Shot
					

Nasal vaccines under development around the world may make better boosters by stopping the coronavirus in the airways.




					www.nytimes.com
				



(paywall removed)

I’ve gotten the flu vaccine this way in past years.


----------



## SuperMatt

I glanced at the number for COVID deaths (average) for Feb 2. 2,658 for America, 10,466 for the world. America has over 25% of COVID deaths, and less than 5% of the world’s population (~330 million out of ~7.5 billion). What a disaster.

While a bunch of far-right nuts scream that vaccine mandates are equivalent to the Holocaust, Austria‘s parliament is finalizing a law to mandate vaccines for everybody. Germany may follow suit.









						Austria’s sweeping Covid vaccine mandate is becoming law.
					

The measure requires almost everyone 18 or over to be vaccinated against the coronavirus, a wider-ranging mandate than any other European country has yet imposed.




					www.nytimes.com
				




Why are some countries handling the pandemic far better than others? One study indicates the answer might be: how much people trust their own government.



			https://wapo.st/34CHqJu
		

(paywall removed)



> Before 2020, Vietnam looked particularly vulnerable to a pandemic. The Southeast Asian country, a single-party state with nearly 100 million people, scored low on international assessments of universal health coverage and had relatively few hospital beds for its population, as well as a closed-off political system.
> 
> Instead, Vietnam emerged as an early pandemic success story. Long after the coronavirus began to spread in neighboring China, Vietnam maintained low levels of infections and fatalities even as wealthy countries with more robust health systems, including the United States and much of Europe, struggled.
> A new study of pandemic preparedness across 177 countries and territories appears to have found a key element in Vietnam’s success: *trust.*
> Thomas Bollyky, one of the study’s authors, said Vietnam should have failed in the fight against the coronavirus, according to traditional tenets of preparedness.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I glanced at the number for COVID deaths (average) for Feb 2. 2,658 for America, 10,466 for the world. America has over 25% of COVID deaths, and less than 5% of the world’s population (~330 million out of ~7.5 billion). What a disaster.
> 
> While a bunch of far-right nuts scream that vaccine mandates are equivalent to the Holocaust, Austria‘s parliament is finalizing a law to mandate vaccines for everybody. Germany may follow suit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Austria’s sweeping Covid vaccine mandate is becoming law.
> 
> 
> The measure requires almost everyone 18 or over to be vaccinated against the coronavirus, a wider-ranging mandate than any other European country has yet imposed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why are some countries handling the pandemic far better than others? One study indicates the answer might be: how much people trust their own government.
> 
> 
> 
> https://wapo.st/34CHqJu
> 
> 
> (paywall removed)



Sadly, this takes us back to the issue of value systems. Austria values the lives of their citizens higher than America does.


----------



## Eric

Taken out by the vaccine in the prime of his life!


A man dying of old age....very dangerous and unexpected from
      facepalm


----------



## Clix Pix

That's disgusting, some antivax asshole trumpeting nonsense about the elderly Prince Philip (who in fact already did have health problems, not unexpected at his age)....


----------



## Herdfan

Just wondering what some other opinions are on this.  I knew Kyrie Irving couldn't play home games at the Barclay's Center because NYC has a vaccine mandate and he is unvaxxed.  

At this point, I didn't think much of it because it is a rule and he is willing to accept the consequences of it.  But then I learned this today:









						Silver: NYC vax rule for Kyrie makes no sense
					

NBA commissioner Adam Silver said Wednesday on ESPN's Get Up that the New York City vaccination mandate preventing Nets guard Kyrie Irving from playing in home games "doesn't quite make sense to me."




					www.espn.com
				




So, he can play in MSG, also in NYC because there he is a visiting player.  In fact, unvaxxed visiting players can play in both arena's, but "home" players can't.

Can't wrap my head around how this makes sense.


----------



## fischersd

Herdfan said:


> Just wondering what some other opinions are on this.  I knew Kyrie Irving couldn't play home games at the Barclay's Center because NYC has a vaccine mandate and he is unvaxxed.
> 
> At this point, I didn't think much of it because it is a rule and he is willing to accept the consequences of it.  But then I learned this today:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Silver: NYC vax rule for Kyrie makes no sense
> 
> 
> NBA commissioner Adam Silver said Wednesday on ESPN's Get Up that the New York City vaccination mandate preventing Nets guard Kyrie Irving from playing in home games "doesn't quite make sense to me."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.espn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, he can play in MSG, also in NYC because there he is a visiting player.  In fact, unvaxxed visiting players can play in both arena's, but "home" players can't.
> 
> Can't wrap my head around how this makes sense.



Simple - the NBA should have had the balls to mandate that all of their players be vaccinated.  Not having done so, there's always going to be corner cases when they have any rules allowing unvaccinated players to play.  

I'd say "now that we're moving into an endemic" - but the US still doesn't have the vaccination rates that they can start treating Covid like the flu.  Maybe if a less severe variant of Omicron evolves, so no-one ends up in hospital or dying?


----------



## SuperMatt

I posted an article not long ago showing that countries with high public trust handled the pandemic the best. I really enjoyed this essay by Colby King discussing a time when people trusted each other and their government more. He asks the question: can we ever get back there?



			https://wapo.st/3sOiIxX
		

(paywall removed)


----------



## Deleted member 215

Well, here we go:









						More contagious version of omicron spreads in U.S., fueling worries
					

The omicron BA.2 variant spreads about 30% more easily and has caused surges in other countries. Its steady increase in the U.S. raises questions about the wisdom of rolling back COVID restrictions.




					www.npr.org
				




The headlines will be nothing but “surging” and “soaring” soon and I suspect mask mandates will be back by the beginning of next month.


----------



## SuperMatt

I just saw that the daily average case count in America dropped below 100,000.

89K as of Feb 21.

I hope it keeps going down!


----------



## User.45

TBL said:


> Well, here we go:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More contagious version of omicron spreads in U.S., fueling worries
> 
> 
> The omicron BA.2 variant spreads about 30% more easily and has caused surges in other countries. Its steady increase in the U.S. raises questions about the wisdom of rolling back COVID restrictions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The headlines will be nothing but “surging” and “soaring” soon and I suspect mask mandates will be back by the beginning of next month.








on a lighter note


----------



## Herdfan

I'm sure some of you won't be happy about this, but I probably won't be either (I doubt they will remove the mandate for planes):









						CDC to significantly ease pandemic mask guidelines Friday
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration will significantly loosen federal mask-wearing guidelines to protect against COVID-19 transmission on Friday, according to two people familiar with the ma…




					www.wowktv.com


----------



## MEJHarrison

Herdfan said:


> I'm sure some of you won't be happy about this, but I probably won't be either (I doubt they will remove the mandate for planes):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC to significantly ease pandemic mask guidelines Friday
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration will significantly loosen federal mask-wearing guidelines to protect against COVID-19 transmission on Friday, according to two people familiar with the ma…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wowktv.com




They can do whatever they like.  I can still wear my mask, do social distancing, avoid unnecessary trips out, and so on all I like.  And I will until I feel comfortable doing otherwise.  It's not going to hurt me to wait 4-6 weeks to see how those new directives play out.  Hopefully it goes smoothly and there are no major problems or flare-ups.


----------



## Deleted member 215

Hmm...have to wonder how much of the relaxations have to do with the fact that this is a Midterm year


----------



## Herdfan

TBL said:


> Hmm...have to wonder how much of the relaxations have to do with the fact that this is a Midterm year




That would be the "political science" as opposed to the science "science".  

In all seriousness, at this point I am not sure it will have much effect.  Most Red states did away with mandates months ago and in the Blue states, people supported them.  So for national elections (House/Senate) I don't think it will matter.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> I'm sure some of you won't be happy about this, but I probably won't be either (I doubt they will remove the mandate for planes):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC to significantly ease pandemic mask guidelines Friday
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration will significantly loosen federal mask-wearing guidelines to protect against COVID-19 transmission on Friday, according to two people familiar with the ma…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wowktv.com



I support the easing of restrictions as long as the case rates stay low, for me it's a nice break from all the paranoia that I've been facing over the last 2 years. I'll still mask up in tight public settings but won't be so concerned about everyone else.


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> I support the easing of restrictions as long as the case rates stay low, for me it's a nice break from all the paranoia that I've been facing over the last 2 years. I'll still mask up in tight public settings but won't be so concerned about everyone else.



I’m happy to see the cases dropping precipitously and hearing that mask restrictions will be eased. Vaccination rates are much higher than they were at the beginning of the Delta surge, and the Omicron variant is less deadly than Delta. I worry about some new variant or another surge. But, if that starts, we can all easily “mask up” again. We might not be at full “herd immunity” yet but I think we are pretty darn close.


----------



## SuperMatt

Yet another study pours cold water on the “Chinese lab leak” theory of COVID-19’s origin:









						New Research Points to Wuhan Market as Pandemic Origin
					

Two new studies say the virus was present in animals at the Huanan seafood market in 2019.



					www.nytimes.com
				



(paywall removed)


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Yet another study pours cold water on the “Chinese lab leak” theory of COVID-19’s origin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Research Points to Wuhan Market as Pandemic Origin
> 
> 
> Two new studies say the virus was present in animals at the Huanan seafood market in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (paywall removed)



Again, this is what ruins Republicans credibility. They are willing to treat unsubstantiated hypotheses as facts and build attacks purely on these, but insist on higher levels of evidence for theories that one by now can consider facts. 

So much time and so little corroborative evidence for the lab leak.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> Again, this is what ruins Republicans credibility. They are willing to treat unsubstantiated hypotheses as facts and build attacks purely on these, but insist on higher levels of evidence for theories that one by now can consider facts.
> 
> So much time and so little corroborative evidence for the lab leak.



Yes. I doubt this latest study will stop right-wing media from insisting the opposite, or Rand Paul from spewing nonsense at another hearing.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Yes. I doubt this latest study will stop right-wing media from insisting the opposite, or Rand Paul from spewing nonsense at another hearing.



Rand Paul will never concede and admit he was wrong and unjust with Fauci.


----------



## User.45

wrong thread


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Yes. I doubt this latest study will stop right-wing media from insisting the opposite, or Rand Paul from spewing nonsense at another hearing.




All I would like to know is why you and so many others are invested in it being from the market and not the lab. What's in it for you?


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> All I would like to know is why you and so many others are invested in it being from the market and not the lab. What's in it for you?



All I would like to know is why you and so many others are invested in it being from the lab and not the market. What's in it for you?


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> All I would like to know is why you and so many others are invested in it being from the market and not the lab. What's in it for you?




Because it removes it from the conspiracy angle which then funnels back into the extended universe of Qanon crazy and has dangerous consequences.

i.e., if it's naturally occuring, we address it at a species, we follow science based protocols, use the mechanisms at our disposal - like vaccines - to combat it like any other viral outbreak - we make sense of this as a collective.

If it was made in a lab, then that means people are involved, which means there's governments also involved, and governments equal partisanship, taking a side, Us vs. Them, Trump!, a separation of science and anti-science, it becomes The Stand, there's dark, evil, supernatural forces, Satan, some disguised as leading infectious disease doctors.

i.e., Lab == Insane Clusterfuck, not too far off from what we have now because that was an idea floated to the loonies.


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> Because it removes it from the conspiracy angle which then funnels back into the extended universe of Qanon crazy and has dangerous consequences.
> 
> i.e., if it's naturally occuring, we address it at a species, we follow science based protocols, use the mechanisms at our disposal - like vaccines - to combat it like any other viral outbreak - we make sense of this as a collective.
> 
> If it was made in a lab, then that means people are involved, which means there's governments also involved, and governments equal partisanship, taking a side, Us vs. Them, a separation of science and anti-science, it becomes The Stand, there's dark, evil, supernatural forces, Satan, some disguised as leading infectious disease doctors.
> 
> i.e., Lab == Insane Clusterfuck, not too far off from what we have now because that was an idea floated to the loonies.



I'm pretty sure that was a rhetorical question. At least I hope, because he could have asked, why humans do science if it wasn't.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> All I would like to know is why you and so many others are invested in it being from the market and not the lab. What's in it for you?



I’m “invested in” it being studied and figuring out the truth. Rand Paul and others on the right started from a point of “it’s a Chinese bio-weapon until you prove otherwise.” They ignored studies such as the one I linked to. You see, if it’s naturally occurring, then Rand’s “gain of function” BS is exposed as the pure nonsense we kind of already knew it was.

In addition, the labeling of the virus as a Chinese attack precipitated a wave of anti-Asian violence in America. That had and still has terrible consequences for those hurt by it.

So far, all the evidence points to a naturally occurring virus that we cannot blame anybody but “Mother Nature” for creating. There goes “blame China” as an excuse.

That leaves you with the following realization. The fact that America has far more deaths from the disease than any other country cannot be blamed on anybody but ourselves and our leaders.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Herdfan said:


> All I would like to know is why you and so many others are invested in it being from the market and not the lab. What's in it for you?




Personally speaking, I'm invested in nothing except the truth.  We can't prepare for future pandemics and learn from this one if we can't even determine how it came to be in the first place.  I'm rooting for the saner of the two options, but it's more important to know the truth, regardless of where it leads.


----------



## User.45

MEJHarrison said:


> Personally speaking, I'm invested in nothing except the truth.  We can't prepare for future pandemics and learn from this one if we can't even determine how it came to be in the first place.  I'm rooting for the saner of the two options, but it's more important to know the truth, regardless of where it leads.



"understanding the circumstances that lead to pandemics is critical to their prevention." Direct quote from one of the 2 preprints.


----------



## Arkitect

P_X said:


> Again, this is what ruins Republicans credibility. *They are willing to treat unsubstantiated hypotheses as facts and build attacks purely on these, but insist on higher levels of evidence for theories that one by now can consider facts.*
> 
> So much time and so little corroborative evidence for the lab leak.



Well ya know? Since most of them are hard-core Christians, they are used to _"treat(ing) unsubstantiated hypotheses as facts and build(ing) attacks purely on these, but insist(ing) on higher levels of evidence for theories that one by now can consider facts."_
Par for the course, I'd say.


----------



## Eric

Positivity rate in CA is now at 2.9%, amazing how quickly it's dropped... like a wild fire that swept through. Hoping it lasts, starting to feel a sense of normalcy for the first time in a while.


----------



## Herdfan

WH and Capitol ended their mask mandates today.

NYC will end them for schools on Wednesday.

Looking more like normal every day.


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> WH and Capitol ended their mask mandates today.
> 
> NYC will end them for schools on Wednesday.
> 
> Looking more like normal every day.



I'd say looking more like a lull between surges every day.


----------



## SuperMatt

Roller said:


> I'd say looking more like a lull between surges every day.



I am worried that could be the case again. However, the vaccination rate + the infected rate is a pretty high number, so it’s possible we’ve seen our last big surge already.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> I am worried that could be the case again. However, the vaccination rate + the infected rate is a pretty high number, so it’s possible we’ve seen our last big surge already.



Fingers crossed that we've seen our last major variant, if they get Omicron dialed in and included with the flu shot that would be great.


----------



## Arkitect

Last month a friend of mine's husband tested positive after double vaccinations plus Booster.
She didn't — same vaccinations, same booster shot… breathing pretty much the same air.

Weird how it strikes some and others not.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Arkitect said:


> Last month a friend of mine's husband tested positive after double vaccinations plus Booster.
> She didn't — same vaccinations, same booster shot… breathing pretty much the same air.
> 
> Weird how it strikes some and others not.




I spent a week in the same room as someone who tested positive.  Two others who were positive were just across the hall from my office where I spend my days.  I never tested positive.

One of the sick people had 2 shots (and was sick for about 6 weeks).  The rest of us have had all three and the sick ones were only sick for a week with mild cold symptoms.

I'm still in shock that I tested negative.


----------



## Herdfan

NFL suspending COVID protocols.









						NFL, players agree to halt COVID-19 protocols
					

NFL teams received a memo Thursday morning detailing the decision to suspend COVID-19 protocols "based on current encouraging trends regarding the prevalence and severity" of the coronavirus.




					www.espn.com
				




Now maybe the interest in Rodgers will increase.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> NFL suspending COVID protocols.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NFL, players agree to halt COVID-19 protocols
> 
> 
> NFL teams received a memo Thursday morning detailing the decision to suspend COVID-19 protocols "based on current encouraging trends regarding the prevalence and severity" of the coronavirus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.espn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now maybe the interest in Rodgers will increase.



He made it political, same with Kaepernick, regardless of what side one is on once you do that it's hard to recover. At least Rodgers is at a good retirement age.


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> He made it political, same with Kaepernick, regardless of what side one is on once you do that it's hard to recover. At least Rodgers is at a good retirement age.



I promise you Rodgers will NOT be blacklisted by the NFL. The Packers are already bending over backwards to please him by hiring a coach that he likes. The NFL was a begrudging participant in COVID-19 mitigation measures from the start. Of course, even with all the loopholes given to the players, and constantly shortening timeframes for quarantine if somebody tested positive, some players STILL couldn’t do even the tiniest bit to be team players when it came to COVID-19.

Comparing Rodgers to Kaepernick is absurd. Kaepernick was making a social justice statement, not about himself, but about police brutality against black people in America. Rodgers was just being completely selfish, only interested in himself not wanting the vaccine, and whining when he was punished for disobeying the rules. Whether you agree or disagree with either of them, you cannot claim Rodgers was making a stand for others.

As for the NFL COVID announcement, it seems to be political, since there won’t be any games or even training camp for months. There’s no reason to make that decision now. It should be made closer to the start of training camp.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> I promise you Rodgers will NOT be blacklisted by the NFL. The Packers are already bending over backwards to please him by hiring a coach that he likes. The NFL was a begrudging participant in COVID-19 mitigation measures from the start. Of course, even with all the loopholes given to the players, and constantly shortening timeframes for quarantine if somebody tested positive, some players STILL couldn’t do even the tiniest bit to be team players when it came to COVID-19.
> 
> Comparing Rodgers to Kaepernick is absurd. Kaepernick was making a social justice statement, not about himself, but about police brutality against black people in America. Rodgers was just being completely selfish, only interested in himself not wanting the vaccine, and whining when he was punished for disobeying the rules. Whether you agree or disagree with either of them, you cannot claim Rodgers was making a stand for others.
> 
> As for the NFL COVID announcement, it seems to be political, since there won’t be any games or even training camp for months. There’s no reason to make that decision now. It should be made closer to the start of training camp.



I'm not arguing the injustices Kaepernick is fighting for, just stating that it's a political stance no matter how you look at it. I don't disagree that Rodgers will not face the same challenges though.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Wait.

NOW you're sharing this?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1496998640698679302/


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wait.
> 
> NOW you're sharing this?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1496998640698679302/



And they made me sit in a chair for 15 minutes instead?


----------



## MEJHarrison

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wait.
> 
> NOW you're sharing this?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1496998640698679302/




I'm not so sure about that.  I went with the "whine like a little girl" approach and haven't had any issues.


----------



## JayMysteri0

MEJHarrison said:


> I'm not so sure about that.  I went with the "whine like a little girl" approach and haven't had any issues.



Depending on your own physical regimen, lengthy "girly" whining maybe considered "a light to moderate exercise".


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wait.
> 
> NOW you're sharing this?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1496998640698679302/











						Exercise after influenza or COVID-19 vaccination increases serum antibody without an increase in side effects
					

Vaccination is an effective public health measure, yet vaccine efficacy varies across different populations. Adjuvants improve vaccine efficacy but of…




					www.sciencedirect.com
				




45 minutes were insufficient... 90 minutes at a HR of 120-140. So that's like a 6-mile walk for me. Good luck applying this in real life.


----------



## Roller

Eric said:


> Fingers crossed that we've seen our last major variant, if they get Omicron dialed in and included with the flu shot that would be great.



I'm not going to pretend that I can predict what will happen — people with considerably greater expertise than I have been wrong many times. But I'll point out that the last two major variants of concern, Delta and Omicron, were declared on May 11 and November 26, 2021, respectively, and each new VOC has exhibited more immune evasion from prior infection or vaccination. As well, the newer VOCs don't seem to be evolving directly from prior ones, and most of the world remains unvaccinated. I think the best hope is effective antivirals, so I support the test-to-treat plan outlined in Biden's SOTU speech. The challenge will be to manufacture enough medication and get it to the people who need it, along with accurate rapid testing.

The situation may seem good in the U.S., but look at what's happening in places like South Korea, which is experiencing a major surge, despite a high vaccination rate.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Herdfan said:


> I'm sure some of you won't be happy about this, but I probably won't be either (I doubt they will remove the mandate for planes):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC to significantly ease pandemic mask guidelines Friday
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration will significantly loosen federal mask-wearing guidelines to protect against COVID-19 transmission on Friday, according to two people familiar with the ma…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wowktv.com



I'm sure it's your self created belief that others who've never said otherwise, won't be happy about easing mask mandates.

The truth on the other hand would be wildly different.

I'm pretty everyone would like a return to "normal" IF it can be safely done.  Also for many whether anyone likes it or not, "normal" has changed for quite a few of us.


----------



## Herdfan

JayMysteri0 said:


> I'm sure it's your self created belief that others who've never said otherwise, won't be happy about easing mask mandates.




Well, in the posts right after that there are those who said they will keep wearing them.  

My point wasn't that people love wearing them and will be disappointed that they are no longer required (hence giving them a reason), but that they don't necessarily believe that we are that point in the pandemic to be ditching safety measures.


----------



## User.45

Herdfan said:


> Well, in the posts right after that there are those who said they will keep wearing them.
> 
> My point wasn't that people love wearing them and will be disappointed that they are no longer required (hence giving them a reason), but that they don't necessarily believe that we are that point in the pandemic to be ditching safety measures.



There are still 40K people hospitalized for COVID, 7,500 in ICUs so it's not unreasonable for people to want to be gradual.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Well, in the posts right after that there are those who said they will keep wearing them.
> 
> My point wasn't that people love wearing them and will be disappointed that they are no longer required (hence giving them a reason), but that they don't necessarily believe that we are that point in the pandemic to be ditching safety measures.



So other than masks, what safety measures would you recommend?


----------



## Arkitect

From across the pond…

UK stats:
Fully vaccinated 73%
Boosted 57%

So here in England (I think in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as well) we're pretty much back to "normal".
No mask mandate in place.

Walking around town, going in to shops and eateries, no masks in sight.
Here and there a few people are wearing them while outside.

It does feel odd and often I feel kind of naked maskless — I still have a mask in every jacket or coat pocket — an unopened packet in my desk drawer and a stack in the car.
Breathing freely does feel great though, however, should someone ask me to wear one in their establishment, I will have no problem in doing so.

Testing is now strictly on a need to know basis, new infections are no longer reported. So what the actual situation is I dunno.
Across the border, Covid infection levels are rising in Scotland… no one has an explanation why that should be.

While Covid has not gone, I think right now it occupies fewer people's minds. Putin has seen to that.

In old newspaper parlance, Covid news is now decidedly _"Below the fold"_.

We shall see.


----------



## User.45

Arkitect said:


> From across the pond…
> 
> UK stats:
> Fully vaccinated 73%
> Boosted 57%
> 
> So here in England (I think in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as well) we're pretty much back to "normal".
> No mask mandate in place.
> 
> Walking around town, going in to shops and eateries, no masks in sight.
> Here and there a few people are wearing them while outside.
> 
> It does feel odd and often I feel kind of naked maskless — I still have a mask in every jacket or coat pocket — an unopened packet in my desk drawer and a stack in the car.
> Breathing freely does feel great though, however, should someone ask me to wear one in their establishment, I will have no problem in doing so.
> 
> Testing is now strictly on a need to know basis, new infections are no longer reported. So what the actual situation is I dunno.
> Across the border, Covid infection levels are rising in Scotland… no one has an explanation why that should be.
> 
> While Covid has not gone, I think right now it occupies fewer people's minds. Putin has seen to that.
> 
> In old newspaper parlance, Covid news is now decidedly _"Below the fold"_.
> 
> We shall see.



It's definitely not over yet. I'll say that we took the kids to the Zoo today and I was pleasantly surprised. Nobody was wearing masks outside, but the moment we entered an area inside a building mask wearing turned to 100%. Not a single person w/o a mask. Then we all took it off outside.


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> So other than masks, what safety measures would you recommend?




I like that random people stay at least 6' away from me.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> I like that random people stay at least 6' away from me.



Oh I wish! I’m lucky if there’s 6 INCHES in any line.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Herdfan said:


> Well, in the posts right after that there are those who said they will keep wearing them.
> 
> My point wasn't that people love wearing them and will be disappointed that they are no longer required (hence giving them a reason), but that they don't necessarily believe that we are that point in the pandemic to be ditching safety measures.



Yes, those are individuals who are making a choice for themselves.  Just as has been done in Asia for years, people wear masks out of courtesy & safety for others, in case they maybe sick & risk others.

Your point was NOT made clear in that post.  Especially in the context of your past sentiments here & in MR that there is seemingly a mythical cabal of individuals who want people wearing masks forever possibly for  some reason.  As it has been stated here & there, mask use has been done with the consideration of the safety of everyone.  I

It's fair to question if we are far enough, because we still have people throwing tantrums and making convoys over mandates made for safety of all.  The same people who maybe more likely to die if they are indeed unvaccinated & prefer their feelings over fact.  Those people are also making a choice for themselves.  Unlike those willing to wear a mask when asked though, those individuals do still pose a risk to others.


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Yes, those are individuals who are making a choice for themselves.  Just as has been done in Asia for years, people wear masks out of courtesy & safety for others, in case they maybe sick & risk others.
> 
> Your point was NOT made clear in that post.  Especially in the context of your past sentiments here & in MR that there is seemingly a mythical cabal of individuals who want people wearing masks forever possibly for  some reason.  As it has been stated here & there, mask use has been done with the consideration of the safety of everyone.  I
> 
> It's fair to question if we are far enough, because we still have people throwing tantrums and making convoys over mandates made for safety of all.  The same people who maybe more likely to die if they are indeed unvaccinated & prefer their feelings over fact.  Those people are also making a choice for themselves.  Unlike those willing to wear a mask when asked though, those individuals do still pose a risk to others.



What happened to the days of people caring about “the common good?”

Most people, if they visit somebody’s house and are asked to take off their shoes, will do so. If they are asked to put their drink on a coaster, they will also do so. But for some reason, putting on a mask to protect others’ health is a bridge too far?

Have people in general become far more selfish, or is this an affliction peculiar to the 21st century Republican Party? It’s no longer about being a good person or doing the right thing. It’s about “MY FREEDOM” regardless of how it affects anybody else.


----------



## Hrafn

Alli said:


> So other than masks, what safety measures would you recommend?



Thoughts and prayers?


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> Oh I wish! I’m lucky if there’s 6 INCHES in any line.




Early on in the pandemic, our local Lowe's put nice stickers on the floor to show where to stand in line.  Good practice for sure.

Then the dumbasses would open registers right beside each other forcing people to be like 2' apart, if that.  SMDH.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Today's Facebook memory from 2 years ago


----------



## MEJHarrison

I know things are finally loosening up and that's great.  I had someone today bugging me about wearing a mask (we drop our mandates tomorrow I think).  I basically told him that's great, but I'm choosing to keep wearing mine for now.

But just to keep things in perspective, we're having a virtual memorial today for someone at work who passed away Monday from Covid.  Just because the masks are going away doesn't mean the virus is going away.


----------



## Herdfan

Ok, so I have taken some heat for criticizing those who make the rules but don't follow them and for just plain stupid rules.

But does this make sense to anyone?









						Mayor: NYC teams must wait turn for eased rules
					

Mayor Eric Adams said New York City's pro sports teams will have to wait their turn to see any loosening of COVID-19 vaccination mandates.




					www.espn.com
				




So a player who has NY as their home team (a member of the Nets, Knicks, Mets, Yankees, Rangers (not sure about Islanders)) can't play in home games if they are not vaccinated.  Fine, no problem.  But an entire visiting team could in theory not be vaccinated and be allowed to play in the city.  But a local player can attend the games and sit in the stands if they bought a ticket.

Someone please explain how this makes sense.  

And this really isn't about Kyrie not wanting to get vaxxed.  This is about the rule and the application of it.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Herdfan said:


> Someone please explain how this makes sense.




I won't even try.  My theory is one of two things.  There's a good reason we don't know about.  Or coordinating logistics on such a large scale is a difficult job and sometimes things aren't going to make sense.

Or a third option.  The government is involved.  We had a plumbing issue last week.  A drain from the kitchen sink was broken somewhere along the way and draining under the house.  It was picked up by another drain for rainwater and such and sent off to the street.  Since it was sink water with a garbage disposal, it had an unpleasant smell.  So the city was out multiple times to let us know we needed to have it fixed immediately or face fines.  They even tested what was draining on the street to see if it had sewage or not.  So we jumped right on it, got it fixed immediately.  Today the city calls and tells us we can't have any of the work done (that was completed last week) until we get a permit.   No one (city people, plumber, plumbing company) mentioned a permit until today.


----------



## Herdfan

So it looks like Mayor Adams changed his mind in like 2 days and will allow unvaxxed "home" athletes to play.









						‘I Am Unafraid:' Adams Excuses NYC Athletes, Performers From Vaccine Mandate Amid Backlash
					

An adamant Mayor Eric Adams on Thursday formally announced an executive order exempting New York City-based professional athletes and performers from the private sector COVID vaccine mandate while leaving it intact for the vast majority of employees, a highly controversial move he billed as one...




					www.nbcnewyork.com
				




Reading this article, it specifically states:



> "Hometown players had an unfair disadvantage to those who were coming to visit," Adams said *of the mandate, which excused only non-NYC residents previously. *"It's unimaginable -- treating our performers differently because they lived and played for home teams. Unacceptable. It's a self-imposed competitive disadvantage."




That doesn't seem right.  Kyrie, or any Yankees or Mets player could have simply moved to NJ or out of the city limits onto LI.  So while that might explain why Kyrie couldn't play at MSG if he were a city resident, it doesn't explain why he didn't just move if it was only based on residency.


----------



## JayMysteri0

A flashback to a scarier time, with even scarier folks supposedly in charge

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1512831444158136327/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1512831450147663880/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1512831455843561474/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1512831462944432131/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1512831467495337992/

A reminder that no matter how dark times may get, there will always be those seeking to profit.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Wait.  What?



> Tesla's Shanghai Factory Will Reportedly Force Employees to Sleep at Work
> 
> 
> After restarting production, the company seems desperate to make up for lost time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gizmodo.com





> Employees at Tesla’s Shanghai factory are reportedly being forced to live at work following a three-week shutdown due to a recent outbreak of Covid-19 cases in China. The company will hand out sleeping bags and mattresses to its employees, who will be made to sleep on the floor while operating in a so-called ‘closed-loop’ system, according to Bloomberg.
> 
> Tesla is one of several manufacturers in Shanghai that are preparing to resume operations after the government enforced a lockdown on the populous city on March 28. But multinational companies have been putting pressure on the government to ease its restrictions so that they can go back to production, even if it means that their workers can’t leave the premises.
> 
> The electric car manufacturer sent out a memo to its employees that details some of the conditions that they will be forced to live under, according to reporters at Bloomberg who say they viewed that memo. Tesla will reportedly hand out a sleeping bag and mattress to each employee, there will be designated areas on the floor for people to sleep on, in addition to areas for showering, catering and entertainment. Employees will be given three meals a day, and an allowance of 400 yuan (or the equivalent of $63).
> 
> Tesla will also follow regulations to avoid the spread of Covid-19 by requiring employees to take a nuclei acid test once a day for the first three days, have their temperatures checked twice a day and wash their hands four times a day.


----------



## Herdfan

Fauci stepping down in December.





__





						Loading…
					





					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> Fauci stepping down in December.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



I like Fauci. He is leaving government service after a long distinguished career and is moving on to other things, not wholesale retirement.


----------



## Yoused

Huntn said:


> … moving on to other things, not wholesale retirement




I may be ageist, but on christmas eve he turns 82 y/o – what ever other endeavours he intends to pursue will most likely be pursued with somewhat less vigor, unless he is to embark on a thorough study of his grandkids.


----------



## Roller

Huntn said:


> I like Fauci. He is leaving government service after a long distinguished career and is moving on to other things, not wholesale retirement.



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1562125230247649283/


----------



## Roller

The Biden administration is reportedly planning to release bivalent booster vaccines (BA.4 & BA.5 Omicron sub-variants) fairly soon:



			https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/23/us/politics/covid-booster-shots-biden.html
		


Eric Topol tweeted a table of pros and cons:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1562285788045266944/


----------



## Cmaier

Roller said:


> The Biden administration is reportedly planning to release bivalent booster vaccines (BA.4 & BA.5 Omicron sub-variants) fairly soon:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/23/us/politics/covid-booster-shots-biden.html
> 
> 
> 
> Eric Topol tweeted a table of pros and cons:
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1562285788045266944/



I’m going to take that booster hard. Real hard. If there’s any chance a shot every 6 months or so will prevent me from getting sick, I’ll take it.

”May add to booster hesitancy” is a strange take.  It’s like “don’t tell people to wear masks, because we’ll run out” and “don’t recommend a booster, because then people will think the vaccine doesn’t work.”

”Shows agility of FDA” is also a strange take. Who is making healthcare decisions based on whether the FDA looks “agile?”


----------



## Yoused

I like the last two entries, that say "_It just might work, but then again, it might not._"


----------



## Roller

Cmaier said:


> I’m going to take that booster hard. Real hard. If there’s any chance a shot every 6 months or so will prevent me from getting sick, I’ll take it.
> 
> ”May add to booster hesitancy” is a strange take.  It’s like “don’t tell people to wear masks, because we’ll run out” and “don’t recommend a booster, because then people will think the vaccine doesn’t work.”
> 
> ”Shows agility of FDA” is also a strange take. Who is making healthcare decisions based on whether the FDA looks “agile?”



I classify people into three groups: (1) Rabid anti-vaxxers who won't accept vaccination no matter what, (2) individuals who don't question much and go ahead with little prompting, and (3) people in between, who may be the majority. Some in the third group, on hearing experts question the value of new vaccine formulations, may be more hesitant to accept these and future boosters.

The speed with which the FDA makes decisions affects how soon vaccines and other drugs become available, which may be more of an issue in a rapidly-changing environment like SARS-CoV-2. The FDA is traditionally very conservative and slow-moving, so agility while still maintaining safety and efficacy standards is good.



Yoused said:


> I like the last two entries, that say "_It just might work, but then again, it might not._"



I think this just reflects Dr. Topol's skepticism about the bivalent vaccines because of limited evidence. They will probably be released without much if any data showing the levels of neutralizing antibodies they elicit in humans or their real-world efficacy in reducing illness and hospitalization. Also, unlike initial vaccine testing in 2020, the population of potential subjects is now much more immunologically diverse, so it's much harder to control for variables.


----------



## Alli

Roller said:


> The Biden administration is reportedly planning to release bivalent booster vaccines (BA.4 & BA.5 Omicron sub-variants) fairly soon:



And I will be first in line to get it. As @Cmaier said, I will take every one that comes along if it means being less likely to be sick. Every six months? Ok.


----------



## fischersd

I'm likely going to get the next vaccine as I tend to not have any side effects / reactions - but my fiancee most definitely will not be getting the next one, as she had some pretty awful fall-out from her 3rd Pfizer.  (I suggested she should go Moderna, but she's just unwilling to go there).

Can't say that I fault people that have been vaccinated up to now and contemplating skipping the booster though.  All evidence is the BA.5 is even milder than Omicron...and so contagious that we're all likely to get it.  At this point, our existing immune systems (for most of us) may be enough?

Now, whenever big Pharma gets around to making vaccines using this discovery?  Yep, all in!









						UBC researchers discover ‘weak spot’ across major COVID-19 variants
					

Researchers at the University of British Columbia have discovered a key vulnerability across all major variants of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, including the recently emerged BA.1 and BA.2 Omicron subvari…




					news.ubc.ca


----------



## Huntn

Yoused said:


> I may be ageist, but on christmas eve he turns 82 y/o – what ever other endeavours he intends to pursue will most likely be pursued with somewhat less vigor, unless he is to embark on a thorough study of his grandkids.



Some high profile people have the opportunities and are driven for their entire lives. For myself, on retirement  I became a lay around bum who does stay active and  recently discovered an interest in creating a VR environment, but don’t hold your breath. It’s slow going and my status as an unknown cog should not change.


----------



## Huntn

Roller said:


> I classify people into three groups: (1) Rabid anti-vaxxers who won't accept vaccination no matter what, (2) individuals who don't question much and go ahead with little prompting, and (3) people in between, who may be the majority. Some in the third group, on hearing experts question the value of new vaccine formulations, may be more hesitant to accept these and future boosters.
> 
> The speed with which the FDA makes decisions affects how soon vaccines and other drugs become available, which may be more of an issue in a rapidly-changing environment like SARS-CoV-2. The FDA is traditionally very conservative and slow-moving, so agility while still maintaining safety and efficacy standards is good.
> 
> 
> I think this just reflects Dr. Topol's skepticism about the bivalent vaccines because of limited evidence. They will probably be released without much if any data showing the levels of neutralizing antibodies they elicit in humans or their real-world efficacy in reducing illness and hospitalization. Also, unlike initial vaccine testing in 2020, the population of potential subjects is now much more immunologically diverse, so it's much harder to control for variables.



Not a backhanded accusation  directed at you, but I will  remind people that vaccines are a slam dunk, they changed the world for the better, they are proven for over a century, they are tested before release and for COVID and the small % of issues as compared to the overall benefit, they are another another slam dunk.

How is the COVID 19 vaccination track record so far? I’ve seen nothing that indicates dangerous practices or lack of effectiveness. My impression is that it had to be fast tracked due to the dire effect on our society, exaggerated  because of STUPID and misinformation purposely directed at STUPID with a Right Wing political agenda behind it.

Most of the COVID STUPID we have seen originated from the ass of Donald Trump and his Party’s collective asses who have tried to diminish and tear down existing authority so it can be replaced by means of Supreme Corrupt, Fantasyland and Self Destructive narratives designed to replace The United States of America with a fascist regime.

Look to Russia (Donny’s favorite strong man country that is ripping apart a neighbor just because Putin is an immoral megliomaniac, Donny’s idol)  if you want a clear example of where we are headed if this Political Poison is allowed to succeed. COVID is just a sideshow as compared to the active undermining of our elections as being perpetrated by the Grand Old Poison.


----------



## lizkat

fischersd said:


> I'm likely going to get the next vaccine as I tend to not have any side effects / reactions - but my fiancee most definitely will not be getting the next one, as she had some pretty awful fall-out from her 3rd Pfizer.  (I suggested she should go Moderna, but she's just unwilling to go there).
> 
> Can't say that I fault people that have been vaccinated up to now and contemplating skipping the booster though.  All evidence is the BA.5 is even milder than Omicron...and so contagious that we're all likely to get it.  At this point, our existing immune systems (for most of us) may be enough?
> 
> Now, whenever big Pharma gets around to making vaccines using this discovery?  Yep, all in!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UBC researchers discover ‘weak spot’ across major COVID-19 variants
> 
> 
> Researchers at the University of British Columbia have discovered a key vulnerability across all major variants of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, including the recently emerged BA.1 and BA.2 Omicron subvari…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.ubc.ca




Check out the names of the scientists leading the teams working on this stuff.   To me they also would seem to represent jointly an antidote to the xenophobia and nationalism popping up lately all over the globe... if only we lived in an even slightly more rational world.



> The discovery is the latest from a longstanding and productive collaboration between *Dr. Subramaniam’s team at UBC and colleagues at the University of Pittsburgh, led by Drs. Mitko Dimitrov and Wei Li. *The team in Pittsburgh has been screening large antibody libraries and testing their effectiveness against COVID-19, while the UBC team has been using cryo-EM to study the molecular structure and characteristics of the spike protein.


----------



## Cmaier

fischersd said:


> I'm likely going to get the next vaccine as I tend to not have any side effects / reactions - but my fiancee most definitely will not be getting the next one, as she had some pretty awful fall-out from her 3rd Pfizer.  (I suggested she should go Moderna, but she's just unwilling to go there).
> 
> Can't say that I fault people that have been vaccinated up to now and contemplating skipping the booster though.  All evidence is the BA.5 is even milder than Omicron...and so contagious that we're all likely to get it.  At this point, our existing immune systems (for most of us) may be enough?
> 
> Now, whenever big Pharma gets around to making vaccines using this discovery?  Yep, all in!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UBC researchers discover ‘weak spot’ across major COVID-19 variants
> 
> 
> Researchers at the University of British Columbia have discovered a key vulnerability across all major variants of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, including the recently emerged BA.1 and BA.2 Omicron subvari…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.ubc.ca




400 people die every day in the U.S. from BA.5 or BA.4.   From what I hear, none of those who died were fully vaccinated and boosted.  Why be one of those 400 people when you can get a shot every now and again and prevent it?


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> 400 people die every day in the U.S. from BA.5 or BA.4.   From what I hear, none of those who died were fully vaccinated and boosted.  Why be one of those 400 people when you can get a shot every now and again and prevent it?



100% this. It's a minor inconvenience that pretty much guarantees you won't die from it, this is a no brainer for me. It will be my 5th shot and I'll be first in line for it.


----------



## DT

Yoused said:


> I like the last two entries, that say "_It just might work, but then again, it might not._"




There was an additional item  ...

FDA communications director:  "_This bit about very rare cases of turning people into a drooling, flesh eating mutants, can we maybe leave that one off?_"


----------



## Roller

Eric said:


> 100% this. It's a minor inconvenience that pretty much guarantees you won't die from it, this is a no brainer for me. It will be my 5th shot and I'll be first in line for it.



Don't get me wrong. As most people here probably know, I'm very much pro-vaccination for COVID-19 and pretty much everything else for which a vaccine is available. I've convinced a number of hesitant people to get vaccinated or boosted over the course of the pandemic, and I've had four shots of the Pfizer mRNA formulation.

My point is that the subject of whether and when to accept a booster is more nuanced than most people are aware, as it is subject to a variety of considerations, particularly timing. I'll almost certainly get the bivalent vaccine soon after it's available, but I'm going to stay on top of the literature while waiting. I'm especially interested in how original antigenic sin, in which prior immunity influences the response to subsequent exposure and/or vaccine response, will play into it all.


----------



## Eric

Roller said:


> Don't get me wrong. As most people here probably know, I'm very much pro-vaccination for COVID-19 and pretty much everything else for which a vaccine is available. I've convinced a number of hesitant people to get vaccinated or boosted over the course of the pandemic, and I've had four shots of the Pfizer mRNA formulation.
> 
> My point is that the subject of whether and when to accept a booster is more nuanced than most people are aware, as it is subject to a variety of considerations, particularly timing. I'll almost certainly get the bivalent vaccine soon after it's available, but I'm going to stay on top of the literature while waiting. I'm especially interested in how original antigenic sin, in which prior immunity influences the response to subsequent exposure and/or vaccine response, will play into it all.



Fair enough, my wife is going on a trip and she's hoping to get the latest vaccine before but we're not sure it'll be out in time and if it is it will still take a couple of weeks to become effective. Seems like 6 months is the threshold when it starts to wane.


----------



## fischersd

Cmaier said:


> 400 people die every day in the U.S. from BA.5 or BA.4.   From what I hear, none of those who died were fully vaccinated and boosted.  Why be one of those 400 people when you can get a shot every now and again and prevent it?



Yep, the vast majority of the unvaccinated are the sheeple following President Pumpkinhead.  We have echoing demographics up here.

The point is, for those that have had 3 or 4 shots already, the benefit of the fall booster with the Omicron protection (which will NOT be effective against BA.5 or any of its offspring) is marginal (if any).  Especially as the vast majority of us have likely already had Omicron so have natural immunity.

Given the dubious merits of this additional booster, I don't begrudge those that had an adverse reaction to their last booster from partaking in this one.


----------



## Cmaier

fischersd said:


> Yep, the vast majority of the unvaccinated are the sheeple following President Pumpkinhead.  We have echoing demographics up here.
> 
> The point is, for those that have had 3 or 4 shots already, the benefit of the fall booster with the Omicron protection (which will NOT be effective against BA.5 or any of its offspring) is marginal (if any).  Especially as the vast majority of us have likely already had Omicron so have natural immunity.
> 
> Given the dubious merits of this additional booster, I don't begrudge those that had an adverse reaction to their last booster from partaking in this one.



No, Pfizer just asked for approval of its BA,4/5 vaccine, and that is supposedly what the next booster will be.


----------



## Eric

fischersd said:


> Yep, the vast majority of the unvaccinated are the sheeple following President Pumpkinhead.  We have echoing demographics up here.
> 
> The point is, for those that have had 3 or 4 shots already, the benefit of the fall booster with the Omicron protection *(which will NOT be effective against BA.5 or any of its offspring) is marginal (if any). * Especially as the vast majority of us have likely already had Omicron so have natural immunity.
> 
> Given the dubious merits of this additional booster, I don't begrudge those that had an adverse reaction to their last booster from partaking in this one.






Cmaier said:


> No, Pfizer just asked for approval of its BA,4/5 vaccine, and that is supposedly what the next booster will be.



Exactly, this new one will specifically cover BA, 4/5









						Pfizer asks FDA to greenlight new omicron booster shots, which could arrive this fall
					

Pfizer has submitted data on its bivalent COVID-19 booster shot that specifically targets the latest omicron subvariants. If authorized, the company says the shots could be ready as soon as September.




					www.npr.org
				





> Pfizer and BioNTech said they have submitted pre-clinical data on vaccine efficacy to the FDA, but did not share the data publicly.
> 
> *The new "bivalent" booster — meaning it's a mix of two versions of the vaccine — will target both the original coronavirus strain and the BA.4 and BA.5 omicron subvariants.*


----------



## fischersd

Heh.  My original argument stands for those that had adverse reactions to their last booster.  

"Pfizer and BioNTech also report that they expect to start a human study on the safety and immunogenicity of the BA4/BA5 bivalent vaccine this month."

So, we have no data on what the side effects could be on humans.


----------



## Eric

fischersd said:


> Heh.  My original argument stands for those that had adverse reactions to their last booster.
> 
> "Pfizer and BioNTech also report that they expect to start a human study on the safety and immunogenicity of the BA4/BA5 bivalent vaccine this month."
> 
> So, we have no data on what the side effects could be on humans.



All they have issued so far have proven to be safe and effective, with an average of 400 deaths per day I'll go ahead and trust them on this one as well. With these sub variants all they do is add the latest strains, something they do with the flu shot every year.


----------



## Cmaier

fischersd said:


> Heh.  My original argument stands for those that had adverse reactions to their last booster.
> 
> "Pfizer and BioNTech also report that they expect to start a human study on the safety and immunogenicity of the BA4/BA5 bivalent vaccine this month."
> 
> So, we have no data on what the side effects could be on humans.




Sure, but given the similarity to the original mRNA shots, if you were fine with those (and almost everyone was) then you will likely be fine with these.


----------



## Deleted member 215

Hearing more and more about the COVID vaccine becoming an annual shot, like the flu vaccine:









						White House: Covid-19 boosters will become annual shot, just like the flu vaccine
					

The administration is making a policy change it has signaled for months.




					www.politico.com
				




Something I've been saying would happen since 2020...

Weird that it's being called a "booster" though. No one calls the flu vaccine a "booster".


----------



## Cmaier

TBL said:


> Hearing more and more about the COVID vaccine becoming an annual shot, like the flu vaccine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> White House: Covid-19 boosters will become annual shot, just like the flu vaccine
> 
> 
> The administration is making a policy change it has signaled for months.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something I've been saying would happen since 2020...
> 
> Weird that it's being called a "booster" though. No one calls the flu vaccine a "booster".




The issue is right now the new shot isn’t authorized as a “first“ shot, so you can only get it if you already had the primary shots. So calling it a “booster” makes a certain amount of sense.  I’m sure the terminology will change as we transition into a true annual shot.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Got my Bivalent (pfizer) booster. I haven't had any kind of reaction to the previous 3 shots other than a sore arm, so I'm hoping for the same again.


----------



## Cmaier

Runs For Fun said:


> Got my Bivalent (pfizer) booster. I haven't had any kind of reaction to the previous 3 shots other than a sore arm, so I'm hoping for the same again.




I didn’t even get a sore arm this time. Just a little tired that evening is all.  I feel like maybe it was because i got my flu shot two days earlier in the same arm - the flu shot pre-sored my arm


----------



## shadow puppet

I got my Modena bivalent booster & flu shot at the same time.  Felt nada from the flu jab but the booster arm was super sore for a few days.


----------



## Clix Pix

Yesterday I got my Moderna Bivalent booster and so far all is well.....feeling a bit sore in the arm, but that's it.  In a week or so I'll go back and get the flu jab, as I didn't want to get
both at the same time.   I am definitely looking forward to the time when all we need is to get an annual booster or whatever they want to call it.... This every several months business is getting pretty old!


----------



## Renzatic

Clix Pix said:


> Yesterday I got my Moderna Bivalent booster and so far all is well.....feeling a bit sore in the arm, but that's it. In a week or so I'll go back and get the flu jab, as I didn't want to get




I got my bivalent shot yesterday. It seems that with each covid shot I get, the arm pain lessens in severity with each one.

The flu shot, which I got a couple weeks ago, made me very, very groggy though. I considered it worth remarking on, since it's the first time that's ever happened.


----------



## Eric

Renzatic said:


> I got my bivalent shot yesterday. It seems that with each covid shot I get, the arm pain lessens in severity with each one.
> 
> The flu shot, which I got a couple weeks ago, made me very, very groggy though. I considered it worth remarking on, since it's the first time that's ever happened.



Pretty much my experience with both, very little from the latest COVID booster but felt hot all day with the flu shot.


----------



## Herdfan

Ummm....  Is this something we should be doing?









						Boston University researchers claim to have developed new, more lethal COVID strain in lab
					

Researchers at Boston University say they have developed a new COVID strain that has an 80% kill rate following a series of similar experiments first thought to have started the global pandemic that began in China.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Ummm....  Is this something we should be doing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boston University researchers claim to have developed new, more lethal COVID strain in lab
> 
> 
> Researchers at Boston University say they have developed a new COVID strain that has an 80% kill rate following a series of similar experiments first thought to have started the global pandemic that began in China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com




Try reports from a conservative leaning source that is a little less inflammatory.









						Boston University COVID researchers combine omicron spike protein with original virus, test strain on mice
					

Boston University COVID researchers have combined the omicron variant spike protein with the original virus, testing the created strain on mice “to help fight against future pandemics,”…




					www.bostonherald.com
				






> “First, this research is not gain-of-function research, meaning it did not amplify the Washington state SARS-COV-2 virus strain (original virus from 2020) or make it more dangerous,” BU said in a statement following online reports that the university called “false and inaccurate.”
> 
> “In fact, this research made the virus replicate less dangerous,” the university added.
> 
> This study provides important insights into omicron’s ability to cause disease, according to the researchers.






> “Consistent with studies published by others, this work shows that it is not the spike protein that drives Omicron pathogenicity, but instead other viral proteins,” said lead study author Mohsan Saeed.
> 
> “Determination of those proteins will lead to better diagnostics and disease management strategies,” Saeed said.


----------



## Hrafn

lizkat said:


> Try reports from a conservative leaning source that is a little less inflammatory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boston University COVID researchers combine omicron spike protein with original virus, test strain on mice
> 
> 
> Boston University COVID researchers have combined the omicron variant spike protein with the original virus, testing the created strain on mice “to help fight against future pandemics,”…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bostonherald.com



I used to think "Reading is fundamental".  Now, I've changed it to "Reading is critical, but understanding is fundamental".  It just seems like it doesn't do any good to read all the good words, but not understand what they say or mean.

"Well regulated militia" - nope no clue.  "shall not infringe": Mah GUNS!

Someone has the bestest, goodest, but not understoodest words.


----------



## Alli

I finally blew up in public yesterday. Some lady came in to the shop where I was getting a manicure. Her first time there and in a very loud voice told her entire life story to her technician. I dislike loud people to start with. Somehow she started talking about Covid and how stupid the vaccines were because she knew people who got the vaccine and had terrible cases and multiple times, whereas people she knew with no vaccine either had no Covid or mild cases.

Ok, I can ignore that. But then she started on how it was unfair for the government to require people to take the vaccine and how they’d never done that before. I turned around and said “do you not remember polio, lady?!” Her response was “it wasn’t mandatory.” “Yes it was,” said I. “Well, only for children,” she huffed. 

At least she spoke quietly from then on.


----------



## Nycturne

She can go to hell. The vaccine very likely kept me out of the hospital with my recent bout, and I lost extended family to Covid as the vaccine was first rolling out (they caught it literally a couple days before their jab). I don't have any patience at this point for anti-vax types. 

Yeah, I get some of it, but it's a novel virus. We aren't going to know exactly how it will mutate, which means vaccine effectiveness will be hard to predict over the long term. If we want to reduce suffering from this novel virus, the vaccine is the cheapest way to do it right now.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> I finally blew up in public yesterday. Some lady came in to the shop where I was getting a manicure. Her first time there and in a very loud voice told her entire life story to her technician. I dislike loud people to start with. Somehow she started talking about Covid and how stupid the vaccines were because she knew people who got the vaccine and had terrible cases and multiple times, whereas people she knew with no vaccine either had no Covid or mild cases.
> 
> Ok, I can ignore that. But then she started on how it was unfair for the government to require people to take the vaccine and how they’d never done that before. I turned around and said “do you not remember polio, lady?!” Her response was “it wasn’t mandatory.” “Yes it was,” said I. “Well, only for children,” she huffed.
> 
> At least she spoke quietly from then on.



People like that (Trumpers and antivaxxers) are the rudest, loudest, and most outspoken people. Why they are simply incapable of keeping their loud ass ignorant comments to themselves is beyond me, it's the one commonality I've noticed with nearly all of them. You've never seen a more self-serving group of fascists.

It's okay to have a different opinion than others and not blast on 10 to everyone within earshot.


----------



## Deleted member 215

New York state supreme court re-hires workers fired for not complying with vaccine mandates and orders back-pay:









						NY Supreme Court reinstates fired sanitation workers who did not comply with NYC vaccine mandate
					

A New York State judge reinstated 16 fired sanitation workers who did not comply with New York City's vaccination mandate issued in October 2021, deciding they should also get back pay.




					abc7chicago.com
				




From the ruling: "There is nothing in the record to support the rationality of keeping a vaccination mandate for public employees, while vacating the mandate for private sector employees or creating a carveout for certain professions, like athletes, artists and performers. This is clearly an arbitrary and capricious action because we are dealing with identical unvaccinated people being treated differently by the same administrative agency."


----------



## Herdfan

TBL said:


> New York state supreme court re-hires workers fired for not complying with vaccine mandates and orders back-pay:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NY Supreme Court reinstates fired sanitation workers who did not comply with NYC vaccine mandate
> 
> 
> A New York State judge reinstated 16 fired sanitation workers who did not comply with New York City's vaccination mandate issued in October 2021, deciding they should also get back pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7chicago.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the ruling: "There is nothing in the record to support the rationality of keeping a vaccination mandate for public employees, while vacating the mandate for private sector employees or creating a carveout for certain professions, like athletes, artists and performers. This is clearly an arbitrary and capricious action because we are dealing with identical unvaccinated people being treated differently by the same administrative agency."




That has to hurt.  

And then there's this from Jake Tapper (seems he is wanting to keep his job at CNN):



> "I have to say I'm surprised that there hasn't been a national conversation about the damage done to kids because of these school closures and the virtual learning and everything," he said on Friday's "CNN Tonight."




Well duh!  Pretty sure Republicans have been saying that since the first school closed.  Here is a clue Jake, the Dems don't want to have a national conversation around it because they caved to the teacher's unions who were pushing the closures.  If Randi Weingarten had her way, schools would still be closed.


----------



## Deleted member 215

Yep. News stories have been making the rounds across the country about the dismal test scores among K-12 children as a result of pandemic closures (with some media outlets reluctant to blame the closures themselves for the drop in performance, even though the causal link is plainly obvious to most of us). We decided as a society to sacrifice our children to protect teachers and older people. Some are just now starting to question if that was the right decision.


----------



## Herdfan

TBL said:


> Yep. News stories have been making the rounds across the country about the dismal test scores among K-12 children as a result of pandemic closures




Not only that, but the socialization they missed.  The wife in our best couple friend's is a 5th grade teacher.  She sees every day.  She now has the kids who were in 2nd and 3rd grades for the closures and she can tell they have missed something in the way they interact with each other.  It's sad really.

I understand protecting older people like grandparents who might have to watch the kids after school, but to possibly sacrifice all the kid's futures to possibly protect a few grandparents seems a bit off.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Well duh! Pretty sure Republicans have been saying that since the first school closed. Here is a clue Jake, the Dems don't want to have a national conversation around it because they caved to the teacher's unions who were pushing the closures. If Randi Weingarten had her way, schools would still be closed.



That’s the exact statement we make about having a national conversation around gun violence. 


TBL said:


> Yep. News stories have been making the rounds across the country about the dismal test scores among K-12 children as a result of pandemic closures (with some media outlets reluctant to blame the closures themselves for the drop in performance, even though the causal link is plainly obvious to most of us). We decided as a society to sacrifice our children to protect teachers and older people. Some are just now starting to question if that was the right decision.



Do we get to put any blame on parents? Cause most of them disappeared during pandemic schooling, and left their kids in front of a screen, never checking to see if their children were engaging or doing any work (and yes, I have the research to back that up). Schools were not closed to protect teachers - teachers still had to show up to school every day that schools were “closed.” And the schools that reopened after only 8-9 weeks (I know it seemed longer, but that’s all it was), then had to cater to students at home and in the building. Many parents chose to keep their children home because the children were/are as at much risk as any adult. A large number of the parents who kept their children out of school did NOT keep their children away from their friends.


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> That’s the exact statement we make about having a national conversation around gun violence.




That's fair.  The problem with the gun debate is those in the middle either stay out or are shut out.  So you end up with one side that wants no guns ownership vs the other side that wants no restrictions. 

Plus, there is some stupidity with some of the proposed regulations.  Prohibiting a grenade launcher on an AR?  Really.  Have launched grenades been a problem I have been unaware of?




Alli said:


> Do we get to put any blame on parents? Schools were not closed to protect teachers - teachers still had to show up to school every day that schools were “closed.” And the schools that reopened after only 8-9 weeks (I know it seemed longer, but that’s all it was), then had to cater to students at home and in the building. Many parents chose to keep their children home because the children were/are as at much risk as any adult. *A large number of the parents who kept their children out of school did NOT keep their children away from their friends.*



Oh hell no.  In the fall of '20 we were working in this one neighborhood with lots of families.  Seems like they all stayed in during the morning, but after lunch they were all out playing basketball or riding bikes.  Certainly not staying away from each other.

And let's face it, some parents use the school system as a babysitter and as long as their mouth breather isn't failing or getting into real trouble, they really don't care.



Alli said:


> Cause most of them disappeared during pandemic schooling, and left their kids in front of a screen, never checking to see if their children were engaging or doing any work (and yes, I have the research to back that up).




The corollary to this is parents who did the kid's work.  Our friend who teaches 5th grade called out a parent for doing the work and when the parent tried to deny it, she told them she could see that the account was logged into a 12:30am.  So was your 5th grader awake at 12:30?  Busted.


----------



## DT

@Alli

Yeah, it's interesting that all our close friends - who followed the proper Covid guidance/subject matter experts, with regards to schooling, masking, social distancing and vaccinations - have children (of various ages) that are just fine, who are excelling academically and are socially adjusted, i.e., they're engaged with life, laugh, play, have friends, date [where applicable], participate in clubs, are class reps/student council, involved in sports.

There's some common background, ideology, etc., running through our peers, I suspect it was less about the children than it was about the parents.


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> There's some common background, ideology, etc., running through our peers, I suspect it was less about the children than it was about the parents.




That is a common theme regardless of the situation.  Involved parents produce better kids.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> That is a common theme regardless of the situation.  Involved parents produce better kids.



And that’s a fact! I won’t continue here since parent involvement/engagement during Covid was my dissertation so I’d bore you to death. But this comment nails it.


----------



## Eric

China is getting serious about a lockdown.   


The largest quarantine camp in China's Guangzhou city is being built. It has 90,000 isolation pods. from
      Damnthatsinteresting


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> China is getting serious about a lockdown.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/z6xjdf



You Know, there are some days where i really wish i had an isolation pod.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> China is getting serious about a lockdown.




And the citizens are getting fed up with it.









						China protests grow as years of anger at Xi's Covid policies erupt
					

Xi Jinping began his historic third term as Chinese leader a month ago with barely a whisper of protest, but that masked anger which has been growing for years and has now exploded into protest.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




How it turns out will all depend on how far the government is willing to go.  They can't kill or jail everyone.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> And the citizens are getting fed up with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China protests grow as years of anger at Xi's Covid policies erupt
> 
> 
> Xi Jinping began his historic third term as Chinese leader a month ago with barely a whisper of protest, but that masked anger which has been growing for years and has now exploded into protest.
> 
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> www.dailymail.co.uk
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> How it turns out will all depend on how far the government is willing to go.  They can't kill or jail everyone.



They're saying this is the biggest protest since Tiananmen Square, which was a brutal and ugly takedown of citizens and if these continue we may be looking at the same thing. Whatever the case I say power to the people, even by the most most strict standards we've ever had it was never anything like China.


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## ronntaylor

Eric said:


> China is getting serious about a lockdown.



Expanding lockdowns after successfully using these tactics on the Uyghurs for years. Those so-called hospitals that Xi had built in a matter days at the beginning of The Pandemic were just detention pods. They went from live cams broadcasting the buildup and then poof, nada.


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