# Jan 6 Committee Public Hearings



## SuperMatt

A forum to discuss the hearings. Here are the public hearing dates/times we know so far:


*Thursday, June 9 at 8 p.m. EDT*
*Monday, June 13 at 10 a.m. EDT*
*Wednesday, June 15, at 10 a.m. EDT*
*Thursday, June 16, at 1:00pm EDT*
*Tuesday, June 21, at 1:00pm EDT*
*Thursday, June 23, at 3:00pm EDT*
*Tuesday, June 28 at 1:00pm EDT*
*Tuesday, July 12 at 1:00pm EDT*
*Thursday, July 21 at 8:00pm EDT*
More hearings are planned for July. Dates and times are yet to be determined.
Update: More public hearings are expected in September.

This is a wikipost so we can update it with additional hearing dates/times.

Here’s some basic information on how to watch, along with a brief FAQ.









						How to watch the Jan. 6 hearings
					

The Jan. 6 committee is laying out findings from their nearly yearlong investigation into the 2021 attack on the U.S. Capitol. Here's a quick guide on how to watch the next hearings.




					www.pbs.org


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## Eric

Thanks, Matt. Stickied as well.


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## Runs For Fun

I'll have my popcorn ready!


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## Eric

For those who want to tune out, just flip it over to Fox News, who will not be airing it as they know they'll be mentioned several times throughout the hearings.


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## Alli

What are our buzzwords for J6 Bingo? Tonight will be a good test, cause if we’re blackout drunk from the opening at night, we’ll never make it through a full day.


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## GermanSuplex

SuperMatt said:


> A forum to discuss the hearings. Here are the public hearing dates/times we know so far:
> 
> 
> *Thursday, June 9 at 8 p.m. EDT*
> *Monday, June 13 at 10 a.m. EDT*
> *Wednesday, June 15, at 10 a.m. EDT*
> This is a wikipost so we can update it with additional hearing dates/times.
> 
> Here’s some basic information on how to watch, along with a brief FAQ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to watch the Jan. 6 hearings
> 
> 
> The Jan. 6 committee is laying out findings from their nearly yearlong investigation into the 2021 attack on the U.S. Capitol. Here's a quick guide on how to watch the next hearings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pbs.org




I can’t wait. After sitting through the Benghazi and Clinton, Hunter Biden’s laptop and watching republicans embrace and promote corruption while giving Trump a free pass for everything, these are welcome. There will be no republicans defending Trump in these hearings unless they are testifying, and if they’re telling the truth, it’s not going to be good for Trump or anyone else involved. I can’t wait to see what we don’t know, because what we do is already bad.

The biggest argument people will make for Trump is probably that he sincerely thought he won. And I ask… so what? Who cares what he thought? I don’t believe he really thought he won, because he knew Biden would be a formidable foe and tried to get Ukraine to dig up dirt on his son. So I doubt he thought he actually won. But even if he did, since when does belief in a cause give you permission to commit a crime of overthrowing election results? The only legal path Trump had was the courts. If I believe a bank owes me money, I can’t find a “legal” way to break into the vault to retrieve it. There is no legality to what Trump conspired to do. Navarro and his ilk are trying to paint it as “finding legal ways to challenge the results”, but that’s just a fancy way of dressing up a criminal conspiracy.

In fact, I’m sure many criminals wish there were legal ways of breaking the law. But that would sort of defeat the purpose of said laws.


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## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> I can’t wait. After sitting through the Benghazi and Clinton, Hunter Biden’s laptop and watching republicans embrace and promote corruption while giving Trump a free pass for everything, these are welcome. There will be no republicans defending Trump in these hearings unless they are testifying, and if they’re telling the truth, it’s not going to be good for Trump or anyone else involved. I can’t wait to see what we don’t know, because what we do is already bad.
> 
> The biggest argument people will make for Trump is probably that he sincerely thought he won. And I ask… so what? Who cares what he thought? I don’t believe he really thought he won, because he knew Biden would be a formidable foe and tried to get Ukraine to dig up dirt on his son. So I doubt he thought he actually won. But even if he did, since when does belief in a cause give you permission to commit a crime of overthrowing election results? The only legal path Trump had was the courts. If I believe a bank owes me money, I can’t find a “legal” way to break into the vault to retrieve it. There is no legality to what Trump conspired to do. Navarro and his ilk are trying to paint it as “finding legal ways to challenge the results”, but that’s just a fancy way of dressing up a criminal conspiracy.
> 
> In fact, I’m sure many criminals wish there were legal ways of breaking the law. But that would sort of defeat the purpose of said laws.



They had Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein on the PBS News Hour the other day, comparing Nixon to Trump. They called Nixon’s behavior illegal, but both called Trump seditious. He took it farther than Nixon, but people still support him.









						Woodward and Bernstein reflect on the parallels between Watergate and the Capitol attack
					

Next week is the 50th anniversary of the break-in at Democratic National Committee headquarters in Washington, an event that would bring down a U.S. president. The reporters at the heart of uncovering the Watergate scandal have reissued their book "All the President's Men" with a new forward...




					www.pbs.org
				




Politicians aren’t known for their ethical behavior, but at least in the 70s, enough of them abandoned Nixon. In the 2020s, they knowingly participate in the lies and defend the criminal behavior of Trump. It’s a really sad state of affairs. Will the Republicans ever abandon this dangerous path? I hope so. If not, I hope enough citizens see it and refuse to vote for Trump’s defenders.


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## Runs For Fun

SuperMatt said:


> Will the Republicans ever abandon this dangerous path? I hope so. If not, I hope enough citizens see it and refuse to vote for Trump’s defenders.



I hope so too but I won’t hold my breath. I feel the GOP is too far gone at this point.


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## Joe

Eric said:


> For those who want to tune out, just flip it over to Fox News, who will not be airing it as they know they'll be mentioned several times throughout the hearings.




LMAO the station that spends so much time calling others snowflakes and F your feelings wimped out....god, that's hilarious. A safe space for conservatives.


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## SuperMatt

Joe said:


> LMAO the station that spends so much time calling others snowflakes and F your feelings wimped out....god, that's hilarious. A safe space for conservatives.



Fox News: It’s cheaper than a lobotomy.


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## ronntaylor

Looks like I'll take a detour. Have early doc appointment Friday and need my BP to be stable. I'll catch a recap over the weekend and know that it will all probably mean squat as GQP pols and voters don't care about morality or lawlessness unless they can pin it on liberals/dems/Black folk/Brown folk/foreign folk or any combo of those that gives them instant wood.


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## GermanSuplex

Yeah, I just flipped to Fox and they’re talking about migrant caravans. Bret Baier can’t claim to be a “straight news” guy if he isn’t airing this heavily and talking about it. He has his scripts just like everyone else I guess.


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## Eric

GermanSuplex said:


> Yeah, I just flipped to Fox and they’re talking about migrant caravans. Bret Baier can’t claim to be a “straight news” guy if he isn’t airing this heavily and talking about it. He has his scripts just like everyone else I guess.



Hey, they're covering the relevant issues of today.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1535008530788409360/

Oh, and there was a stabbing, so they're finally outraged.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1535023225557733376/


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## Cmaier

The geography lesson is already boring me.


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## GermanSuplex

This should be good, these have to be the most important hearings since Watrergate.


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## Cmaier

I really don‘t understand why they are starting with this speech. It‘s been a year of waiting - nobody wants the opening act.


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## SuperMatt

Bill Barr said Trump’s election lies were bullshit… Are we going to see more Trump officials speaking against him tonight?


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## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> Bill Barr said Trump’s election lies were bullshit… Are we going to see more Trump officials speaking against him tonight?



at this point I’d be happy to see anything other than Bennie Thompson tripping over the teleprompter


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## dukebound85

Thompson is not a good messenger


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## GermanSuplex

Ok, time to wrap up the lecture and get to more facts and testimony.


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## Cmaier

15 minutes in, and how many people do you think have tuned out, out of boredom


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## SuperMatt

I’m not a Republican but they should have started with Liz instead of Benny.


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## Runs For Fun

Ok enough of recap of events. Let’s see the evidence and never before seen footage.


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## GermanSuplex

Uh oh, Jason Miller may be excommunicated now.

*Ivanka - “I respect AG Barr, so I accepted what he was saying”.

It’s crystal-clear: Trump knew he lost but said “f it” and went ahead and utilized his cult to stay in power. This was already known to anyone with a brain, so it’s great to already see Barr and Trump’s favorite child admitting it was all BS - on video.


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## Eric

Gonna wait for the highlights myself, just don't have the interest to sit through it all.


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## SuperMatt

The recurring theme is that everybody told Trump to stop with the fraud nonsense and he refused and/or fired them.


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## SuperMatt

I think all this preamble is to show that Trump had intent to overturn the election. They will probably draw a line from that all the way to Jan 6 as the final attempt of many at a coup.


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## Citysnaps

I view what Thompson and Cheney are doing right now as similar to opening statements presented by the prosecution in a criminal trial. In this case telling the American public what facts and evidence will be presented, who will be testifying, etc, painting a big picture road map for the coming days.  Very useful, imo.


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## SuperMatt

Why does Ms. Cheney have a toy soldier on the table in front of her?


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## SuperMatt

They are saying a Trump tweet from December telling people to come on Jan 6 including “will be wild” - led to the insurrection. And she says they have evidence showing he knew it would be violent.


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## SuperMatt

I am more and more angry watching this because the GOP Senators knew a lot of what we are hearing today, and refused to convict him of impeachment, They could have prevented him from ever running again. They aided a traitor.


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## Edd

Cmaier said:


> I really don‘t understand why they are starting with this speech. It‘s been a year of waiting - nobody wants the opening act.



I said something similar but my wife shushed me.


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## SuperMatt

Jared Kushner is a complete and utter piece of shit. He was too busy dealing with pardons for Trump loyalists to even bother with the White House counsel “whining” that they would resign. And he had no problem saying it in an official investigation, smugly smiling.


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## SuperMatt

Time for first-time-seen video of the attack.


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## SuperMatt

All these rioters should spend the rest of their lives in jail.


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## GermanSuplex

These cowards like McCarthy had staff running for their lives, and all these people can do is continue to kiss the ass of the guy who caused it all.

*Video of coordinated attacks by oath keepers…

**Where did all these ANTIFA and BLM thugs get their Trump, proud boys and other assorted fake army gear?


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## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> These cowards like McCarthy had staff running for their lives, and all these people can do is continue to kiss the ass of the guy who caused it all.
> 
> *Video of coordinated attacks by oath keepers…



You see the Capitol Police begging for help, and Trump intentionally refusing to send it. He should take his last breath in a prison cell.


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## GermanSuplex

Fatty dumb-dumb continuing his “rigged and stolen election” BS…

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1534901239086989312/


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## Runs For Fun

That footage was tough to watch again. I don’t think people realize just how close our democracy came to collapsing that day. Sickening.


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## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> Fatty dumb-dumb continuing his “rigged and stolen election” BS…
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1534901239086989312/



He is still repeating his lies about offering 20,000 National Guard troops? For the record, the lie was originally 10,000 troops…









						Fact check: Trump repeats false claim that Pelosi rejected request for National Guard ahead of Jan. 6
					

Donald Trump recently repeated the false claim that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi rejected his request for 10,000 National Guard troops ahead of Jan. 6.



					www.usatoday.com
				




If all the Republicans kicked Trump to the curb permanently, perhaps I could muster an ounce of respect for them. Until then…


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## SuperMatt

The word bullshit has been said 3 times on PBS in the past hour


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## Citysnaps

SuperMatt said:


> The word bullshit has been said 3 times on PBS in the past hour




I noticed.  Probably a first.

Also, flipping through the networks, PBS' presentation was better, not putting unnecessary and annoying borders around what was presented.


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## SuperMatt

Runs For Fun said:


> That footage was tough to watch again. I don’t think people realize just how close our democracy came to collapsing that day. Sickening.



I remember watching it on TV from home, only about a mile away. The thing was, everybody in DC was warned the day before to stay home, not go to work, not go anywhere near the Capitol. I believe Trump intentionally prevented security such as the National Guard in order to let his goons get in and attempt to kill Pence.

I’ve been in the Capitol many times and to see those violent traitors in there like that still gave me a sick feeling in my stomach watching it today.


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## SuperMatt

citypix said:


> Also, flipping through the networks, PBS' presentation was better, not putting unnecessary and annoying borders around what was presented.



I’m watching on PBS too.


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## Runs For Fun

SuperMatt said:


> still gave me a sick feeling in my stomach watching it today.



Exactly the same feeling I got.


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## SuperMatt

The documentarian is a master of understatement…


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## Citysnaps

SuperMatt said:


> The documentarian is a master of understatement…




Yeah, his description of the hotel he was forced to stay in as "less than satisfactory" was gold.


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## SuperMatt

The documentarian’s footage was so important to show that the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers planned this. He was surprised when they didn’t seem interested in the President’s speech and instead went to Capitol around 10:30am! 

When it comes to mob mentality, somebody taking down the initial barriers or “breaking the line” is critical. We can see that this break wasn’t something that just happened. It was planned and executed by these hate groups.

And the fact that members of Congress are still pushing the lies about election fraud? One could argue they are party to the attempted coup.


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## Citysnaps

SuperMatt said:


> And the fact that members of Congress are still pushing the lies about election fraud? One could argue they are party to the attempted coup.




Pish posh.  Mere legitimate political discourse.


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## GermanSuplex

I think it was an effective narrative and a good groundwork to start, but they’ve got a long way to go. But… I think they know that, and I think this is barely the beginning. I’d be worried if I were republicans.

Like I said, they have a long way to go before they convince anyone who manages to be on the fence at this point. I question how anyone could be by now, but whatever. I hope this sways at least some minds.

I’m sure the cult will be yelling “that’s all?! Ahaha”, because it’s not about the next hearing, it’s about a victory right now, in the moment. When something is shown, they’ll deny it. It’s the classic Trump playbook.


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## AG_PhamD

I’m sure that despite Fox News not airing the live hearings, they will devote just as much time, probably more, bickering about the hearing and minimizing or the defending the indefensible actions taken by those on 1/6 and Trumps influence to incite this BS. 

Frankly, I’m sure this hearing will change much in terms of public opinion. People already have their stance. Much of this was debated during the impeachment hearing in relation to Trump. Do you really think even a bombshell revelation would budge the MAGA crowd? 

And so long as this is a partisan presentation, which for all intents and purposes I assume it is, it will only serve to entrench the stop the steal lunatics in their lunacy. 

I do think there is value in finding out what exactly happened, who is responsible, and absolutely holding them accountable. Including politicians and their staff. 

With that in mind, I think there is a reasonable question that doesn’t yet seem to even be remotely acknowledged- there is evidence groups were planning mayhem prior to 1/6, evidence intelligence agencies were aware of this, and evidence law enforcement and political powers were informed. So why was seemingly no effort made to reinforce security for 1/6? Allegedly, requests for this were made but denied. 

I’m not much for conspiracy theories and I would hope there are reasonable answers for this. At the same time, the past several years have clearly demonstrated how pathologically sick some of our leaders are in their attempts to gain and/or maintain power. 

For the record, I think Trump should have ideally resigned on 1/6. While he can say that in his 1/6 speech he asked for “peaceful protest”, which is 100% true, his statements leading up to the 1/6 events (and after) incited riot/insurrection based on an idea many/most told him was absolute nonsense. In that he did not resign, he  should have been impeached.


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## SuperMatt

AG_PhamD said:


> And so long as this is a partisan presentation, which for all intents and purposes I assume it is



Did you watch it? Liz Cheney (R) spoke almost as much as the Democratic chair. Just because Trump loyalists are trying to label her a traitor doesn’t change the fact that this is a bipartisan commission.

The above comment misses the mark because anything bad about Trump is automatically labeled “partisan” by his loyalists. Which is not true of this commission.

I hope one day that future Republicans will look back in shame at what their party members did in thrall to Trump.

Anybody calling this a partisan presentation is either not paying attention, or is still a Trump supporter.



AG_PhamD said:


> With that in mind, I think there is a reasonable question that doesn’t yet seem to even be remotely acknowledged- there is evidence groups were planning mayhem prior to 1/6, evidence intelligence agencies were aware of this, and evidence law enforcement and political powers were informed. So why was seemingly no effort made to reinforce security for 1/6? Allegedly, requests for this were made but denied.



Again, did you watch it? This was directly mentioned and is going to be addressed in more detail later in the proceedings. They played audio of General Milley talking about how the Trump administration wanted him to lie about things being stable, right after audio of him recounting the draconian response to the BLM protests ordered by Trump (as a contrast). A quick summary of that bit from Republican Liz Cheney:



> In a preview of some of the new information the committee has uncovered, *Ms. Cheney said the committee would show how the White House had intelligence that the protests on Jan. 6 could turn violent but did nothing*. Ms. Cheney played audio of General Milley testifying that in the aftermath of the attacks, the White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows, wanted him to push the false narrative that Mr. Trump was in charge and “things are steady or stable.”


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## AG_PhamD

SuperMatt said:


> Did you watch it? Liz Cheney (R) spoke almost as much as the Democratic chair. Just because Trump loyalists are trying to label her a traitor doesn’t change the fact that this is a bipartisan commission.
> 
> The above comment misses the mark because anything bad about Trump is automatically labeled “partisan” by his loyalists. Which is not true of this commission.
> 
> I hope one day that future Republicans will look back in shame at what their party members did in thrall to Trump.
> 
> Anybody calling this a partisan presentation is either not paying attention, or is still a Trump supporter.
> 
> 
> Again, did you watch it? This was directly mentioned and is going to be addressed in more detail later in the proceedings. They played audio of General Milley talking about how the Trump administration wanted him to lie about things being stable, right after audio of him recounting the draconian response to the BLM protests ordered by Trump (as a contrast). A quick summary of that bit from Republican Liz Cheney:




Admittedly, I only saw bits and pieces.   What percentage of republicans opposed impeaching Trump? All but two in the senate? 90%+ in polls. Sadly I’m not sure Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger are representative of the overwhelming majority of republicans. 

Regarding the preparation (and response to 1/6) I am aware Trump did not immediately order to quell the rioting/insurrection, which should have been more than enough to impeach him. But there’s a lot here that needs to be cleared up. 



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/capitol-riot-dc-national-guard-memo/2021/03/16/80949750-82de-11eb-bb5a-ad9a91faa4ef_story.html
		










						Ex-Capitol Police Chief Says Requests For National Guard Denied 6 Times In Riots
					

Steven Sund contradicts reports that help was not requested, saying security officials at the House and Senate rebuffed calls for assistance ahead of and during the attack on the Capitol.




					www.npr.org
				












						Trump admin was ready to deploy National Guard on Jan 6, Capitol Police timeline shows
					

A Capitol Police timeline of the days and weeks surrounding Jan. 6 shows former President Donald Trump’s Department of Defense (DOD) offered the National Guard’s assistance in the days leading up to the violent attack on the U. S. Capitol, validating claims from Trump administration officials...




					thenationaldesk.com
				












						Inside the Capitol Cops' Jan. 6 Blame Game
					

New documents and whistleblower claims describe critical intelligence failures ahead of the insurrection




					www.rollingstone.com
				












						This is why the National Guard didn’t respond to the attack on the Capitol
					

The response to the siege on the Capitol was mired in red tape.




					www.militarytimes.com
				




There’s a lot of contradictory claims and finger pointing. Frankly, I don’t trust either side Congress to investigate this, nor accepting statements by people involved as irrefutable fact. The specific issue of why was there not extra police/NG on-site equipped to handle a riot deserves an independent investigation. 

I trust the committee for the most part has/will identify Trump and the republicans responsibility on this and that’s where I presume most of the blame lies for inciting this crap in the first place. But there is an obvious political incentive to make this all about republicans when clearly there were others who seem to have some responsibility in terms of preparing for foreseen issues- or at least have their explanations scrutinized by an unbiased authority. 

And why did the authorities who evidently had some idea of what the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers were up to allow their actions to take place? What did they know and when and what could have been done to prevent these groups from at the very least exacerbating this situation? 

It seems to me if you’re aware these groups are planning an insurrection- and I find it hard to believe they had not at least infiltrated the Proud Boys in some way considering Charlottesville, wouldn’t it be better to stop it before it starts? Or is it better to risk people getting hurt/killed- including other law enforcement officers, risking the safety of Congressmen/women, the VP, the security of the Capitol, the image of the US Government? 

That’s not to take any blame away from Trump and his sycophants in government and other positions of power who perpetrated the “stop the steal” nonsense. I just think these are all questions worth answering and conflicts worth ironing out. 

It very well be there is no political motive to some of these questions and the answer is simply incompetence and that’s fine. But it’s still worth getting to the bottom of. At the very least there seems to be a tremendous lack of communication between the various agencies.


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## Edd

That Jan 6th got to the level it did certainly surprised me, and I presume surprised virtually everyone. Yeah, Steve Bannon SAID all hell was going to break loose on his podcast but right wing media personalities are professional shit-talkers and Proud Boys-types mostly larp their way through life jerking off to race war fantasies but how much actually happens? If they had just protested outside the capitol everyone would have just said “Yeah, that figures, these idiots are all talk”.

So, that law enforcement got caught flat-footed doesn’t shock me much, but a plan B obviously should have been in place. Now we know.


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## Roller

AG_PhamD said:


> *Admittedly, I only saw bits and pieces*.   What percentage of republicans opposed impeaching Trump? All but two in the senate? 90%+ in polls. Sadly I’m not sure Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger are representative of the overwhelming majority of republicans.
> 
> Regarding the preparation (and response to 1/6) *I am aware Trump did not immediately order to quell the rioting/insurrection, which should have been more than enough to impeach him*. But there’s a lot here that needs to be cleared up.
> 
> There’s a lot of contradictory claims and finger pointing. *Frankly, I don’t trust either side Congress to investigate this, nor accepting statements by people involved as irrefutable fact*. The specific issue of why was there not extra police/NG on-site equipped to handle a riot deserves an independent investigation.
> 
> *It very well be there is no political motive to some of these questions and the answer is simply incompetence and that’s fine*. But it’s still worth getting to the bottom of. At the very least there seems to be a tremendous lack of communication between the various agencies.



If you only saw "bits and pieces," on what are you basing your criticisms?

What the co-chairs, particularly Liz Cheney, outlined was that this was an orchestrated, premeditated plan to overturn the results of the election by multiple means, including disputing the vote in key states and sending alternate slates of electors. When that didn't work, the tactic shifted to sending a mob to the capitol to disrupt the proceedings and get Pence out of the way. One wonders if all the facts that have come to light since the 2nd impeachment trial had been known, would Trump have been found guilty.

If you don't trust either side of Congress to investigate this, what body would you accept? The committee is bi-partisan because of Liz Cheney's and Adam Kinzinger's participation. Additional Republicans were invited, but McCarthy deliberately chose people like Jim Jordan as an excuse to pull everyone and claim that the effort is partisan. As well, Senate Republicans blocked an independent commission.  

As for accepting statements as irrefutable fact, under what circumstances does that ever apply? If witnesses say something under oath, they are at risk for perjuring themselves if they lie. Refuting them is a matter of presenting contrary physical evidence or testimony by other, more believable witnesses, but it's always an imperfect process because humans are involved.

Many Republican politicians and their supporters have already branded the committee's work as a partisan attempt to derail Trump — another witch hunt, to use words he often applies. As with their baseless stolen election claims, their intent is to de-legitimize the proceedings, conclusions, and recommendations. Are there as-yet unresolved questions about what agencies did or didn't do? Yes, but from what I've seen at least some of them will be answered during the hearings.


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## SuperMatt

AG_PhamD said:


> It seems to me if you’re aware these groups are planning an insurrection- and I find it hard to believe they had not at least infiltrated the Proud Boys in some way considering Charlottesville, wouldn’t it be better to stop it before it starts?



You are missing the entire point. The committee is working to show that not only did Trump administration officials KNOW, they were working to make it happen. He blocked the National Guard for hours. His administration may have blocked requests for protection in the days leading up to Jan 6. Which is what the commission is working to show.

But you think it’s a partisan exercise? No, supporting a man who repeatedly tried to overturn a free and fair election and pretending Jan 6 was “legitimate political discourse” is a partisan exercise.

When most Republicans failed to support an independent commission to study Jan 6, this was the only option. And, having done that, they can claim it is a partisan exercise.

If you don’t see that, you aren’t paying attention…. Or else you support Trump and his coup attempt. If there’s a 3rd possibility, please let me know what it is.

And you really should be careful about using “The National Desk” as a source of anything other than entertainment.


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## SuperMatt

Edd said:


> That Jan 6th got to the level it did certainly surprised me, and I presume surprised virtually everyone. Yeah, Steve Bannon SAID all hell was going to break loose on his podcast but right wing media personalities are professional shit-talkers and Proud Boys-types mostly larp their way through life jerking off to race war fantasies but how much actually happens? If they had just protested outside the capitol everyone would have just said “Yeah, that figures, these idiots are all talk”.
> 
> So, that law enforcement got caught flat-footed doesn’t shock me much, but a plan B obviously should have been in place. Now we know.



I believe the lack of security was intentional on the part of the Trump administration. The Proud Boys clearly had a plan to break past barricades based on the documentary evidence we saw yesterday. I believe we will find out that Trump officials knew and set it up for this to happen. So probably not an intelligence failure, but criminal behavior by Trump and his cabinet.


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## GermanSuplex

Sadly, because what took place was so obvious (Trump touting for months he would win unless there was fraud, the tweets, the Newsmax/OAN/MyPillow/Roger Stone/Steve Bannon/Rudy Colludy cretins pumping the far-right social circles full of totally made-up fiction)...

Everything we will see in these hearings is only going to reaffirm the obvious. It needs to be seen, I think it will be effective and I certainly hope it will change minds, but I can already hear the arguments play out in my head;

-Whataboutism (Hillary, Hunter Biden, etc.)
-Deflection (Supreme Court leak, Biden should be investigated over his Afghanistan withdrawal, etc.)
-Denial ("Nope, election was rigged, what was he supposed to do?", "Of course the republicans needed pardons, they had the election stolen and knew crooked dems would try to wrongly prosecute them, just like they did with the Russia Hoax.")

The same people who have no problem calling young people who take advantage of protests to loot and riot "thugs" and "terrorists" just shrug their shoulders when these far-right folks engage in criminal conspiracy to help a president defy the results of the vote. People died, police were beaten, the collateral damage as a whole was far worse than any of the previous-summer's riots (I say that without mitigating any loss of property, life or health anyone endured during the riots - but clearly, those had less direct impact on the nation as a whole).

Trump has gotten away with so much for so long I don't see how its possible anyone's mind isn't already made up, but I suppose there could be enough people out there who don't follow politics all that much who may be swayed.

Another issue is this game of semantics republicans play. They NEVER concede or admit to anything, ever. If caught in a lie, they twist themselves in pretzels. Like McCarthy and McConnell's much tamer language that they use to discuss the riots than they did after January 6.

It's why they say Trump didn't incite anyone. If I say "It sure would be a shame if people showed up to the Capitol and incited violence to overturn the bogus election results while congress is counting the electoral votes. The election was rigged and stolen, and I can't imagine anyone taking having their vote stolen lightly. That's a just reason for war in a lot of countries."

Republicans would take that statement if Trump said it and say "What? He clearly said it would be a shame if it happened, what's the big deal?"

The democrat conclusion is simple - Trump is a lifelong grifter, conman, liar and white collar criminal. He didn't stop when he became president, he used the office as a tool to further his crooked activities. But republicans have a million and one theories as to why all of that is not true, and Trump is always right. I don't know if I see anything changing. The number one cable news network is barely even covering this, and offering sympathetic coverage to Trump when they do. McCarthy has already indicated he's willing to listen to the far-right flank of his base and retaliate against the committee and its members, and I would not be surprised if they drum up their own rigged "investigations". Going to be real entertaining seeing guys like Matt Gaetz and Jim Jordan interrogating witnesses.



Edd said:


> That Jan 6th got to the level it did certainly surprised me, and I presume surprised virtually everyone. Yeah, Steve Bannon SAID all hell was going to break loose on his podcast but right wing media personalities are professional shit-talkers and Proud Boys-types mostly larp their way through life jerking off to race war fantasies but how much actually happens? If they had just protested outside the capitol everyone would have just said “Yeah, that figures, these idiots are all talk”.
> 
> So, that law enforcement got caught flat-footed doesn’t shock me much, but a plan B obviously should have been in place. Now we know.




I was not surprised. I was watching that day - I didn't care about Trump giving his standard campaign speech full of lies. This was different - he had been frothing this lie up for months before the election, refused to concede, had encouraged white supremacist groups during a presidential debate when he was asked to condemn them, had been pressuring election officials around the country, had his goof troop like Rudy Colludy and Mr. Pillows running around spouting nonsense, there was turmoil in the administration and an exodus of people even before the 6th, he had been publicly pressuring his own VP to just throw out the votes... 

So I was tuning in that day very anxious to see what happened. There's always an element of surprise when something like that happens, but it I was not surprised in the sense of not expecting it. Kind of like a severe storm warning - lots of times, its just some lightning, thunder and rain. But sometimes, it does turn severe, and even though you had the warning, its still surprising.

I think one would have to be dense to not think Trump was fully in the loop on a lot of this. I think one thing was very effective was mentioning that Trump had a private meeting with Mike Flynn, Rudy Colludy, Sydney Powell (can't remember if Mr. Pillows was there). It lasted into the early morning, and Trump first tweeted about the rally after that meeting. These were people promoting his bogus claims and filing false lawsuits.


----------



## Citysnaps

Best Liz Cheney Comment:

*Tonight, I say this to my Republican colleagues who are defending the indefensible: There will come a day when Donald Trump is gone, but your dishonor will remain.*


----------



## Edd

Trump is guilty of treason, and he deserves the harshest possible punishment.

_Penalty: Under U.S. Code Title 18, the penalty is death,[4] or not less than five years' imprisonment (with a minimum fine of $10,000, if not sentenced to death). Any person convicted of treason against the United States also forfeits the right to hold public office in the United States.[5]_


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> If all the Republicans kicked Trump to the curb permanently, perhaps I could muster an ounce of respect for them. Until then…




I think Republicans realize that Trump and Trumpism is the only thing they offer that (some) voters approve of.  Their biggest delusion is that it will dissipate if Trump himself were out of the picture.  To cure the disease they would need to help reduce people's actual problems and struggles and they aren't really interested in that.

There's no shortage of analysis on what caused empires to crumble after the fact but I don't see a lot of analysis on what they could have done to prevent it.  "Stop the imperialism wars" is a little too simplistic.  To make a modern comparison "The US stopped involvement in foreign wars and all their citizens got world-class socialized healthcare as a result" will probably be something you will never read in a history book.


----------



## JayMysteri0

I think the committee very clearly laid out how this was organized.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1535082372030414861/

The important bit:


The proud boys & oathkeepers were supposedly there for the former president's speech, as they told the documentarian.  The documentarian with them that morning notes that the group doesn't go to the speech, they instead head right ( with a little scouting ) for the capital.  He's surprised by this, and the additional ( Arizona & specifically the orange capped group ) people that join as they move on with NO intention of being at the speech.
The former president surprises everyone ( including the organizers themselves who know how to create these things and know they don't have ability to control a march ) by calling everyone to march to the capital.  Something he says he will join them in, which we & his followers know was a lie.  Hell one clown shows up & speaks with body armor on.  Which is unusual for some "political discourse."
The protestors march then are met by waiting proud boys & oathkeepers who egg the crowd on, and turn the police into the villains standing in the way.  The protestors are eventually turned into rioters by the two groups to storm the capital.  While the groups have their own units concerned with Pence & Pelosi.  The two groups need the protestors to turn into rioters, to give themselves a sudden army to storm the capital.
Pence is a very key piece, and we learned that the former president wasn't too concerned if that key piece was lost.  That's F'd up.
Pretending any of this "partisan" by hiding behind supposedly not being fully aware of what was presented is weak.  THAT is partisan, hiding behind ignorance.  We know the groups had weapons stored out of the city in the ready if things went completely their way.  None of this is the actions of an unorganized / spontaneous protest.  It was a coordinated plan to stop the counting of votes, so it could be sent back to the states where another plan was in place to change those outcomes.  We know efforts were made BEFORE the protest to minimize security and Nat'l Guard backup.  That the VP's chief of staff was supposedly aware that the VP could very well be in danger.  That the former president has lied repeatedly ( and can't keep his lie straight ) about calling in for help as pleaded by everyone else.  Instead it's Pence who's calling for the military.

The partisan thing involved here, was one party NOT wanting this investigated at all.  One party who punished two of their own, because they were willing to investigate.  One party who punished one of their own who happily carried water for the party & the former president, but any dissension is seemingly unacceptable.  The partisan thing here was what happened ON Jan 6th & why, and being willing to do nothing so such a thing could happen again.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> I believe Trump intentionally prevented security such as the National Guard in order to let his goons get in and attempt to kill Pence.




"A couple knuckleheads killing the Vice President is a pretty standard field trip activity.  It happens in Chicago every weekend.  Why isn't the fake news talking about that?"


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> The partisan thing involved here, was one party NOT wanting this investigated at all. One party who punished two of their own, because they were willing to investigate. One party who punished one of their own who happily carried water for the party & the former president, but any dissension is seemingly unacceptable. The partisan thing here was what happened ON Jan 6th & why, and being willing to do nothing so such a thing could happen again.



35 Republicans in the house voted to create the independent commission just over a year ago. That’s quite notable, as they usually all vote together. It was McConnell in the Senate who made sure the commission never happened though. And why did he do that?



> McConnell argued that law enforcement efforts to find the perpetrators are ongoing and bipartisan investigations at the committee level are already underway, saying there has been “no shortage of robust investigations” into the events.
> 
> 
> "It’s not at all clear what new facts or additional investigation yet another commission could actually lay on top of existing efforts by law enforcement and Congress," he said.
> 
> *McConnell’s remarks come one day after Trump released a statement demanding that he and House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., reject the commission. McCarthy announced his opposition to the legislation on Tuesday morning.*




All this to appease a FORMER president who led the cheers while his goons tried to murder you. Talk about a bunch of wimps. Mitch and company are such cowards. Why would anybody vote for such losers?









						House passes bill to create Jan. 6 commission amid strong GOP opposition
					

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell joined the chorus of Republican leadership formally urging members to vote against the measure.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> The former president surprises everyone ( including the organizers themselves who know how to create these things and know they don't have ability to control a march ) by calling everyone to march to the capital. Something he says he will join them in, which we & his followers know was a lie. Hell one clown shows up & speaks with body armor on. Which is unusual for some "political discourse."



Some reports indicate Trump wanted to go to the Capitol but the Secret Service told him it wouldn’t be safe beforehand.









						Trump Pressured Secret Service to Let Him Go to the Capitol … as the Riot Was Happening
					

The former president on several occasions asked to go to Congress on Jan. 6, including after the rally that preceded the attack, Politico reported




					www.rollingstone.com
				




But he still told his followers he would join them, even though he already knew he couldn’t.

So:
1 - He planned to go and lead the mob in a coup himself.
2 - Despite his security telling him no, he pretended he would join the mob to make sure that they went through with the attack.

Of course, he’s so insane that the Secret Service tried to come up with a plan in case he ignored them and went there anyway.

Can you imagine if the secret service were battling against the Capitol police? ?!?!?!?!?! Trump is just a straight-up tyrant.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Don’t talk about January 6 on Truth Social


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Runs For Fun said:


> Don’t talk about January 6 on Truth Social
> 
> Trump’s ‘free speech’ platform Truth Social suspends accounts that mention Jan 6 hearings… from
> PoliticalHumor





That's pretty much on brand with the party of acusers confessors.  Truth on Truth Social won't be tolerated.


----------



## Edd

Hope this hasn’t already been posted:


----------



## Cmaier

Runs For Fun said:


> Don’t talk about January 6 on Truth Social
> 
> Trump’s ‘free speech’ platform Truth Social suspends accounts that mention Jan 6 hearings… from
> PoliticalHumor




Now that I think of it, at one point I referred to “the insurrection” on MR and had my message deleted and received a warning for calling it that.


----------



## Edd

Cmaier said:


> Now that I think of it, at one point I referred to “the insurrection” on MR and had my message deleted and received a warning for calling it that.



That’s bizarre.


----------



## SuperMatt

Jim Banks (R-Indiana) cannot stop spinning. How does he avoid getting dizzy?






Apparently, it doesn’t matter how much you whip people into a frenzy, telling them to fight like hell and stop the steal… if you say “be peaceful” one time in a 2-hour speech, you’re absolved of inciting a riot.

And his spin on why he objected to certifying the election … nobody is stupid enough to believe that.

But why aren’t we investigating the “failure” of the Capitol police to not be able to handle a riot? That’s the REAL question that Jim Banks claims he wants to know. Uh… watch the video. Really, the Capitol police are pros, so they’d never do this, but…. if they had a priority list of who to protect from future violence, I’d imagine this guy would be near the bottom of it.


----------



## Eric

You mad bro?


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> You mad bro?



Because THAT is what‘s really important in regards to Jan 6?


----------



## Runs For Fun

Eric said:


> You mad bro?



He’s having a temper tantrum over there.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Runs For Fun said:


> He’s having a temper tantrum over there.




Let him. More evidence to use against him.


----------



## SuperMatt

It’s not the main point of the hearings, but I believe there will be audio of discussions to use the 25th amendment on Trump. Depending on how many Republicans are on the record discussing it, I think we might see the real reason they don’t want this commission. When Trump hears who wanted to get rid of him, the backlash could cost them their seats.


----------



## Joe

A trump supporter is missing from this thread


----------



## JayMysteri0

Perspective

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1535639218612867072/


----------



## GermanSuplex

I just the read the memo the counsel to Mike Pence submitted, essentially saying that Pence would be breaking the law and would not have the backing of courts. This is not a Democrat or deep state person - this is the VP’s right-hand lawyer saying this is a bad idea.

Pence’s counsel to John Eastman as the riots began..
_“I respect your heart here,” replied Jacob. “I share your concerns about what Democrats will do once in power. I want election integrity fixed. But I have run down every legal trail placed before me to its conclusion, and I respectfully conclude that *as a legal framework, it is a results oriented position that you would never support if attempted by the opposition, and essentially entirely made up.”*

“And *thanks to your bullshit*,” he continued, “*we are now under siege.*”









						Pence-world’s final takedown of Trump’s Jan. 6 bid to remain in power revealed in his lawyer's memo
					

Top adviser told the then-vice president that the courts would likely not support him if he gave in to Trump's pressure to delay certifying electoral votes.




					www.politico.com
				



_
The Eastman memo was a way to “legalize” the plan, which including putting in “alternate” slates of electors, whatever that means. Which in turn, many Republican officials probably took part in throughout several swing states. None of this is legal and it’s definitely a conspiracy, which included people like Trump down to local officials. I can’t wait to see what’s coming up… I expect Thursday’s hearing was just saying “We know this was a conspiracy orchestrated by Trump“. I’m expecting the next few will go longer than two hours, and I expect far more details.


----------



## SuperMatt

Joe said:


> A trump supporter is missing from this thread



I guess the usual right-wing media outlets are ignoring the commission instead of the usual: They release talking points that I then see regurgitated by consumers onto message boards and social media sites.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Runs For Fun said:


> Don’t talk about January 6 on Truth Social
> 
> Trump’s ‘free speech’ platform Truth Social suspends accounts that mention Jan 6 hearings… from
> PoliticalHumor



Um, wouldn't this be "cancel culture?"


----------



## Runs For Fun

mac_in_tosh said:


> Um, wouldn't this be "cancel culture?"



It's only OK when it's something they don't agree with


----------



## SuperMatt

I turned on PBS and they are showing cartoons.… ok now it is starting (10:45am)


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> I turned on PBS and they are showing cartoons.… ok now it is starting (10:45am)



Wake me when Mr. Thompson stops his marble-mouthed babbling


----------



## SuperMatt

The order of the day is to demonstrate that the election was definitely not stolen, and that Trump knowingly lied about it, over and over.


----------



## SuperMatt

Showing bits of interviews with WH officials discussing what happened in the WH as election results were read.

… one of the officials (Jason Miller) indicated that Giuliani was highly intoxicated…. And insisted that the president announce that he won regardless of the results.


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> Showing bits of interviews with WH officials discussing what happened in the WH as election results were read.
> 
> … one of the officials (Jason Miller) indicated that Giuliani was highly intoxicated…. And insisted that the president announce that he won regardless of the results.



Rudy drunk? No way.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Someone previously mentioned elsewhere how Fox will sometimes have progressives on if they share the same criticisms.

Sometimes that may not go as planned.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1536141453193527296/


----------



## SuperMatt

The guy from the Fox News political desk is bragging about how their team knew that Arizona would go to Biden earlier than the competing networks.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I guess sort of the strange dynamic about this case is that I'm learning that people around Trump thought this was all BS, that he lost, etc, but its just supporting what we all saw play out in public anyways. It's not like a mystery that Trump lied, refused to listen to the truth, laid out his "fraud" claims MONTHS before the election, declared victory on election night and told people to stop counting votes (wtf?)...

This is like watching a terrorist parachute out of one of the 9/11 planes, get captured on landing with box cutters on him, having his tweets telling people to "watch the sky on 9/11, will be wild!", then having a trial...

It's like, more evidence is great, but what more do you need?


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> I guess sort of the strange dynamic about this case is that I'm learning that people around Trump thought this was all BS, that he lost, etc, but its just supporting what we all saw play out in public anyways. It's not like a mystery that Trump lied, refused to listen to the truth, laid out his "fraud" claims MONTHS before the election, declared victory on election night and told people to stop counting votes (wtf?)...
> 
> This is like watching a terrorist parachute out of one of the 9/11 planes, get captured on landing with box cutters on him, having his tweets telling people to "watch the sky on 9/11, will be wild!", then having a trial...
> 
> It's like, more evidence is great, but what more do you need?



To me, it shows there were some loyalists in the Trump administration who backed him no matter what. There were also cowards (like Pence) who were scared to stand up to him. When I see these interviews, showing Trump as detached from reality, it seems like the 25th amendment could reasonably been invoked.

Then the same mix of cowardice and loyalists existed in the Senate, so they didn’t impeach.

It is good that all of America gets to hear Trump officials, under oath, explaining how unhinged Trump had become. We can see why they resigned. I don’t like Bill Barr, but if others could at least have gotten to his level of a semblance of decency, they easily could have gotten rid of Trump or blocked him from ever running again. He could have been out of office before Jan 6 even happened.


----------



## GermanSuplex

SuperMatt said:


> To me, it shows there were some loyalists in the Trump administration who backed him no matter what. There were also cowards (like Pence) who were scared to stand up to him. *When I see these interviews, showing Trump as detached from reality, it seems like the 25th amendment could reasonably been invoked.*




Given that there were internal talks by top GOP officials and even Trump's media arm - people like McCarthy and Hannity brought it up during January 6 - I'd say if Trump isn't a candidate for invoking the 25th amendment, who is?


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> Given that there were internal talks by top GOP officials and even Trump's media arm - people like McCarthy and Hannity brought it up during January 6 - I'd say if Trump isn't a candidate for invoking the 25th amendment, who is?



It goes to show when you fill the cabinet with incompetent, immoral sycophants, they won’t invoke the 25th. Because if they do, they know they’d be fired once a competent person gets behind the desk in the Oval Office.


----------



## sgtaylor5

GermanSuplex said:


> Given that there were internal talks by top GOP officials and even Trump's media arm - people like McCarthy and Hannity brought it up during January 6 - I'd say if Trump isn't a candidate for invoking the 25th amendment, who is?



That's the problem with human government: if the people who are in the government are moral and/or sane, so will their government be. If they are immoral and/or insane, so will their government be. "If a ruler pays attention to falsehood, All his ministers become wicked" (Proverbs 29:12). I could find other proverbs from another wisdom tradition, too.

Ninja'd by @SuperMatt


----------



## GermanSuplex

So there's testimony that Bill Barr had DoJ officials investigate some of Trump's online conspiracy garbage and debunked much of it. Trump's campaign officials, Bill Barr and the DoJ, etc. all shot all of this stuff down, but Trump just ignored them, fired them, replaced them, etc. and kept listening to his favorite news outlets, drunk Rudy Colludy, etc.

I'm glad they're going through many of the debunked theories and getting testimony from those in the know about how bogus they were.

They're doing a really good job sort of methodically laying this case out and having a "theme" for each day. The first day was laying out the argument. Today, they're laying out tons of people who said "Yeah, this all BS", showing that Trump had to known.


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> So there's testimony that Bill Barr had DoJ officials investigate some of Trump's online conspiracy garbage and debunked much of it. Trump's campaign officials, Bill Barr and the DoJ, etc. all shot all of this stuff down, but Trump just ignored them, fired them, replaced them, etc. and kept listening to his favorite news outlets, drunk Rudy Colludy, etc.
> 
> I'm glad they're going through many of the debunked theories and getting testimony from those in the know about how bogus they were.
> 
> They're doing a really good job sort of methodically laying this case out and having a "theme" for each day. The first day was laying out the argument. Today, they're laying out tons of people who said "Yeah, this all BS", showing that Trump had to known.



There are still many people on the right that still believe these lies. I don’t know if this sworn testimony will sway them, but it’s possible it will.

Lord, the threats against Schmidt were brutal for just doing his job. Funny how the right-wingers are screaming now about protecting Kavanaugh, but didn’t do anything to protect election workers from threats related to Trump’s tweets.


----------



## JayMysteri0

I guess someone thinks the hearing has been effective, because the desperation begins...








> Kevin McCarthy and other House Republicans are planning an alternative report on the Capitol attack targeting Nancy Pelosi, Capitol Police and the FBI as the January 6 committee hearings start
> 
> 
> House Republicans say their report, expected later this year, will attempt to clear Trump's name by linking the January 6 Capitol attack to Nancy Pelosi, the FBI, Capitol Police, the National Guard, and others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com





> House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and other top GOP members are sewing up an alternative analysis of who was responsible for the January 6, 2021, violent attack on Congress, aides for the California Republican told Insider.
> 
> The Republican plan in the works includes an attempt to pin the attacks on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, the Capitol Police, the FBI, and the National Guard, and the then-House Sergeant at Arms Paul Irving.
> 
> With no control over what the January 6 select committee presents to the American public Thursday night during its debut prime-time hearing, House Republican leaders have scrambled to whip up an effective counterattack with little information to go by. That's in part because they refused to take part in the year-long committee investigation. McCarthy was subpoenaed by the select committee but has, so far, refused to cooperate with its investigation.


----------



## Citysnaps

JayMysteri0 said:


> I guess someone thinks the hearing has been effective, because the desperation begins...




Maybe they'll put former US Attorney Rudy G on that project. At least it would be amusing.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

sgtaylor5 said:


> That's the problem with human government: if the people who are in the government are moral and/or sane, so will their government be. If they are immoral and/or insane, so will their government be. "If a ruler pays attention to falsehood, All his ministers become wicked" (Proverbs 29:12). I could find other proverbs from another wisdom tradition, too.
> 
> Ninja'd by @SuperMatt




A term that was new to me that I recently heard, psychocracy.  A government ruled by a psychopath who attracts and surrounds themself with other psychopaths as members of the government.


----------



## GermanSuplex

This committee really needs someone who's embedded in the Trump cult to turn. I don't see these relative unknowns swaying any cult members.

Bill Barr has already been written off as a RINO. That's the problem, it doesn't matter for how long, how hard or how sincerely you kiss Trump's ass, the moment you don't, you're excommunicated from the church of Trump. So everyone is telling the truth and a patriot, until it doesn't square with what Trump the Father wants, then they're just a RINO. It's a low-IQ but effective method that keeps getting stronger.

That said, I hope the justice department is watching, and I hope that they have no qualms with arresting and charging people. Charge Trump, bring him in handcuffs. He may be a former president, but he's also a private citizen just like the rest of us.


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> This committee really needs someone who's embedded in the Trump cult to turn. I don't see these relative unknowns swaying any cult members.
> 
> Bill Barr has already been written off as a RINO. That's the problem, it doesn't matter for how long, how hard or how sincerely you kiss Trump's ass, the moment you don't, you're excommunicated from the church of Trump. So everyone is telling the truth and a patriot, until it doesn't square with what Trump the Father wants, then they're just a RINO. It's a low-IQ but effective method that keeps getting stronger.
> 
> That said, I hope the justice department is watching, and I hope that they have no qualms with arresting and charging people. Charge Trump, bring him in handcuffs. He may be a former president, but he's also a private citizen just like the rest of us.



Anybody who goes against Trump is instantly labeled a traitor, and everything they say will be ignored. It could be the literal 2nd coming of Jesus, and the Son of God telling these folks that Trump is a liar, and people would probably nail him to a cross again in defense of Trump. They are no better than zombies at this point.


----------



## Joe

None of this is going to change the minds of his cult followers. That's why a certain someone isn't even in this thread.


----------



## fooferdoggie

well now that trump has tossed his daughter under the bus maybe we will see. But he seems to have them all by the short hairs.


----------



## Roller

There is a massive amount of evidence to bring before a grand jury and then indict Trump, and probably some of his associates, on several Federal counts. But grand juries operate in secret, so the members would remain anonymous, while most juries are public. There is a provision to convene an anonymous jury by court order if there is concern that the jurors may be subjected to harassment or intimidation. If there ever were a case calling for anonymity, this would be one. Still, I think most prospective jurors would be understandably apprehensive.

Of course, much of this could have been avoided had 10 more Republican senators voted to convict in Trump's second impeachment trial. Even though much more has come to light since then, there was plenty of evidence back then. There would have been some civil unrest, but far less than will ensue if Trump is tried and convicted now. However, not proceeding would be even worse.


----------



## fooferdoggie

not sure if the head guy has the balls to do it. of course if they had the balls but trump owns their balls.


----------



## fooferdoggie

listened to the whole hearings man everyone and their dog told trump he lost and and a ton of republicans investigated and told him what he did not want to hear. but he listened to the drunk melting turd.


----------



## GermanSuplex

fooferdoggie said:


> listened to the whole hearings man everyone and their dog told trump he lost and and a ton of republicans investigated and told him what he did not want to hear. but he listened to the drunk melting turd.




I keep hearing a popular refrain about the Biden admin - “who’s running the show?” You know, because Biden is old. I don’t know about you, but if you gave me an hour of Biden talking on his worst day and an hour of Trump on his best - without any previous knowledge of the two, who do you think would be more likely to be determined an inept idiot?

But to my larger point, the right acts as if people are pulling Biden’s strings. Meanwhile, we have sworn testimony - that means under oath, something elected republicans are afraid to do - that Trump was NOT listening to his qualified advisers. But he WAS listening to people like Rudy Tootie Drunk Colludy and whatever gaggle of moron freak shows he had surrounding him.

And republicans are so scared of Trump and his cult that they knew he was off the rails and just did nothing, and quickly got to work after January 6 making sure Trump (and themselves) would have a counter-narrative.

Lots of talk of financial crimes tonight too, something I often wondered about myself when I would look at the crap his campaign would send out.

PRESIDENT TRUMP JUST NOTICED THAT YOU HAVEN’T SET YOUR HOURLY CONTRIBUTION!

Should we upset our lord by telling him that you can no longer contribute, or are you a patriot we can count on to help fight the corrupt democrats’ election scam? Donate now so we can have President Trump place you on his super-patriot VIP list! /s

I’m thinking Merrick Garland’s legacy will be to do something unprecedented and bring federal charges against Trump, and literally every scheming lawyer and Republican elected official  who aided him, be it city, county or state officials.

The committee was very clear: we have a system. The system was followed. The place to challenge the system is court. He lost. A lot. There is no “legal” method outside of that to overturn an election, and trying to find one - and acting upon it - should be called what it is: seditious conspiracy.


----------



## Roller

fooferdoggie said:


> listened to the whole hearings man everyone and their dog told trump he lost and and a ton of republicans investigated and told him what he did not want to hear. but he listened to the drunk melting turd.



One of the most prominent people who supported Trump’s effort to overturn the election was Ginni Thomas. John Yoo has argued that her extreme opinion had no bearing on her husband’s ruling on Trump’s claim of executive privilege and that Justice Thomas need not recuse himself from election-related cases. That this comes from the same attorney who thought torture was acceptable renders him less credible, IMO. The appearance of a conflict of interest is often as consequential as an actual conflict, particularly at this level.


----------



## Huntn

I can’t bring myself to watch the hearings because I might get my hopes up that something sane, legal, and jail-like might happen to the Head POS and his oozing band of Little Turds. Our democracy is on life support because of STUPID, Racist, and Selfish. Yes, I believe they are a minority, but they are enough to destroy our democracy and make our Constitution an illusion. 

Based on news reports regarding these hearings,  Trump is either a monumental crook, seriously mentally ill, or both, plus he’s a sick ignoramus. The fact that this pathetic excuse for a human being is a major political figure who could be elected as POTUS just reveals the extent of the moral and social cancer that is devouring the nation’s lower intestines, and likely could become terminal.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Huntn said:


> I can’t bring myself to watch the hearings because I might get my hopes up that something sane, legal, and jail-like might happen to the Head POS and his oozing band of Little Turds. Our democracy is on life support because of STUPID, Racist, and Selfish. Yes, I believe they are a minority, but they are enough to destroy our democracy and make our Constitution an illusion.
> 
> Based on news reports regarding these hearings,  Trump is either a monumental crook, seriously mentally ill, or both, plus he’s a sick ignoramus. The fact that this pathetic excuse for a human being is a major political figure who could be elected as POTUS just reveals the extent of the moral and social cancer that is devouring the nation’s lower intestines, and likely could become terminal.



yep this one says anyone that still believes he won have to deny all of the republicans including trumps staff and only believe trumps word. there is no way to say trump won now and all of trumps claims about fraud were investigated by republicans.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Dumbest question I read today

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1536415470299058177/

No.  Of course they are not pissed.   They will give him MORE money when he threatens to run AGAIN, despite what everyone now knows.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1536718355981279233/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1536378639888961537/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Here’s how Trump, his conspirators, and those who stormed the capitol aren’t too bright. Let’s say a couple thousand of his supporters managed to hold Congress hostage (or whatever they hoped to achieve). Do they honestly believe the rest of the country would just get on board? Would they if a similar action took place in defense of a President Bernie Sanders?

Let’s also say the 74 million people who voted for Trump were diehard Trump fanatics (most weren’t). That’s only about 23% of the country they could count on to blindly go along with it. Not a winning number.

On some level it’s unfortunate they were unsuccessful as they were because one more degree of success would mean a lot more people in a lot more serious trouble and the country being a lot more awake. Imagine if they managed to seriously injure or kill a member of Congress. You’d think anybody getting killed would remove all doubt, but apparently, that isn’t enough. There’s a level of life value above race and that’s people with power. Mess with those people and there’s no avoiding the legal sledgehammer. But because it fell short of that we all get to waste our time listening to people with power argue about it being some nuanced misunderstanding.


----------



## Cmaier

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Here’s how Trump, his conspirators, and those who stormed the capitol aren’t too bright. Let’s say a couple thousand of his supporters managed to hold Congress hostage (or whatever they hoped to achieve). Do they honestly believe the rest of the country would just get on board? Would they if a similar action took place in defense of a President Bernie Sanders?
> 
> Let’s also say the 74 million people who voted for Trump were diehard Trump fanatics (most weren’t). That’s only about 23% of the country they could count on to blindly go along with it. Not a winning number.
> 
> On some level it’s unfortunate they were unsuccessful as they were because one more degree of success would mean a lot more people in a lot more serious trouble and the country being a lot more awake. Imagine if they managed to seriously injure or kill a member of Congress. You’d think anybody getting killed would remove all doubt, but apparently, that isn’t enough. There’s a level of life value above race and that’s people with power. Mess with those people and there’s no avoiding the legal sledgehammer. But because it fell short of that we all get to waste our time listening to people with power argue about it being some nuanced misunderstanding.




he packed the court with folks he assumed would go along. If they had, then the military, police, etc. would go along with who the Supreme Court said is president.  If they intimidated congress into saying “hey, something fishy is going on these states. Legislatures of these states, please confirm who the electors are for us,” then they hoped that those legislatures would be intimidated into going along.  60% of the country might be appalled, disgusted, and outraged, but what are they going to do?

Next time they can skip some steps, because they are going to elect wacko secretaries of state who will make sure the only slate is a slate that was not elected.


----------



## SuperMatt

Cmaier said:


> he packed the court with folks he assumed would go along. If they had, then the military, police, etc. would go along with who the Supreme Court said is president.  If they intimidated congress into saying “hey, something fishy is going on these states. Legislatures of these states, please confirm who the electors are for us,” then they hoped that those legislatures would be intimidated into going along.  60% of the country might be appalled, disgusted, and outraged, but what are they going to do?
> 
> Next time they can skip some steps, because they are going to elect wacko secretaries of state who will make sure the only slate is a slate that was not elected.



It was quite a good proof-of-concept for a COMPETENT authoritarian to take over the country. Trump is an idiot, and his most loyal advisors were buffoons. But some things they tried actually could work if you have enough dishonest actors within the system.

So, it definitely can happen here, and if a tyrant wants to do it, they’ve got a roadmap.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> he packed the court with folks he assumed would go along. If they had, then the military, police, etc. would go along with who the Supreme Court said is president.  If they intimidated congress into saying “hey, something fishy is going on these states. Legislatures of these states, please confirm who the electors are for us,” then they hoped that those legislatures would be intimidated into going along.  60% of the country might be appalled, disgusted, and outraged, but what are they going to do?
> 
> Next time they can skip some steps, because they are going to elect wacko secretaries of state who will make sure the only slate is a slate that was not elected.




But a lot of legal and investigation attempts were made before 1/6.   I highly doubt a violent hostage taking mob is going to change the opinion of the supreme court and those failed outcomes.


----------



## Cmaier

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> But a lot of legal and investigation attempts were made before 1/6.   I highly doubt a violent hostage taking mob is going to change the opinion of the supreme court and those failed outcomes.




The point wasn’t to change the mind of the Supreme Court - the supreme court never had an opportunity to rule on the issue of whether a state legislature can override the certification of an elector slate.  The point was to throw it to the Supreme Court, figuring that they had at least a 50/50 shot there.


----------



## Cmaier

Cmaier said:


> The point wasn’t to change the mind of the Supreme Court - the supreme court never had an opportunity to rule on the issue of whether a state legislature can override the certification of an elector slate.  The point was to throw it to the Supreme Court, figuring that they had at least a 50/50 shot there.




By the way, let’s not forget that Justice Thomas’ wife was involved, which probably gave everyone some confidence about what SCOTUS would say. In fact, she may have already known what the vote count would be…


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> The point wasn’t to change the mind of the Supreme Court - the supreme court never had an opportunity to rule on the issue of whether a state legislature can override the certification of an elector slate.  The point was to throw it to the Supreme Court, figuring that they had at least a 50/50 shot there.




But again, via a violent hostage-taking mob?  They thought that would be the trigger?   And like I said, would they agree that's a good tactic if the left did the same over President Bernie Sanders?  Would they just throw their hands in the air and go "Well, I guess the supreme court decided and that's that.  Time to pack it in." 

And for what it's worth, the quickly approaching Roe v Wade decision, or even the leaked draft has made a lot of people question the supreme court being the be all end all decision maker that should always be respected and never challenged.  The consequences go well beyond this one decision.  It's just the latest most blatent example of minority rule.


----------



## Cmaier

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> But again, via a violent hostage-taking mob?  They thought that would be the trigger?   And like I said, would they agree that's a good tactic if the left did the same over President Bernie Sanders?  Would they just throw their hands in the air and go "Well, I guess the supreme court decided and that's that.  Time to pack it in."
> 
> And for what it's worth, the quickly approaching Roe v Wade decision, or even the leaked draft has made a lot of people question the supreme court being the be all end all decision maker that should always be respected and never challenged.  The consequences go well beyond this one decision.  It's just the latest most blatent example of minority rule.




They thought the mob would trigger congress (or pence)  to “do the right” thing.  And, to be honest, if they did it again TODAY, it WOULD work.

People can question, or fail to respect, the SCOTUS, but, again, as long as all the organs of the state - the military, the police, the lower courts - all do obey what the super court says, what is it you think will happen?  If Trump is sitting in the White House for a second term, protest all you want, it isn’t changing.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> They thought the mob would trigger congress (or pence)  to “do the right” thing.  And, to be honest, if they did it again TODAY, it WOULD work.
> 
> People can question, or fail to respect, the SCOTUS, but, again, as long as all the organs of the state - the military, the police, the lower courts - all do obey what the super court says, what is it you think will happen?  If Trump is sitting in the White House for a second term, protest all you want, it isn’t changing.





What makes you think storming the capitol today would be successful?  I'm not disagreeing with things being done behind the scenes to help rig the elections in favor of Republicans, but storming the capitol?  

I was going to say civil war will be the result, but that would go against the general laziness and short attention span of the left.  I don't see them having it in them.  Also I see rural Americans more interested in protecting their turf than storming the cities and urban Americans perfectly happy to let them have their turf.  There just wouldn't be a lot of recreational travel going on.  The tourist economy going way down on both sides.


----------



## lizkat

SuperMatt said:


> It was quite a good proof-of-concept for a COMPETENT authoritarian to take over the country. Trump is an idiot, and his most loyal advisors were buffoons. But some things they tried actually could work if you have enough dishonest actors within the system.
> 
> So, it definitely can happen here, and if a tyrant wants to do it, they’ve got a roadmap.




Yeah and I'm sure the wannabe strongarm rulers of the world are all going to watch what happens in October with the Brazilian elections, where the allegiance of the police, and military to a constitution is not as firmly anchored as in older democracies,  even though the military leadership has so far largely resisted Bonsonaro's ongoing attempts to compromise its independence.   

Bolsonaro has already tried to cast doubt on results of the elections in advance by taking a page from Trump's playbook, suggesting without evidence that current voting methods lack integrity and that he will not accept "fraudulent" results.

Not only that,  Bolsonaro has long had help from Trump's inner circle in aid of casting doubt on election integrity.  The cited piece (paywall stripped) is from November of 2021:



> Steve Bannon, Mr. Trump’s former chief strategist, has said President Bolsonaro will only lose if “the machines” steal the election. Representative Mark Green, a Tennessee Republican who has pushed laws combating voter fraud, met with lawmakers in Brazil to discuss “voting integrity policies.”
> 
> And President Bolsonaro’s son, Eduardo Bolsonaro, gave perhaps his most elaborate presentation on what he said were manipulated Brazilian elections in Sioux Falls, S.D. He was at an August event hosted by Mike Lindell, the pillow executive being sued for defaming voting machine makers


----------



## Cmaier

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> What makes you think storming the capitol today would be successful?




Because we’ve seen now that the Republicans will just call it “legitimate political discourse.” Almost no republican in office will admit, now, that there was no election fraud. They all see that their base would tear them to shreds if they did NOT send it to the state legislatures.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> Because we’ve seen now that the Republicans will just call it “legitimate political discourse.” Almost no republican in office will admit, now, that there was no election fraud. They all see that their base would tear them to shreds if they did NOT send it to the state legislatures.




I don’t see it happening again for a number of reasons. First, there would be A LOT more security. From experience security would know these aren’t just slightly rowdy protesters and they are perfectly able to injure or kill and certainly don’t side with the police on this one. Second, from a protester’s standpoint they will see that there were circumstances for individuals. There won’t be any “I just got swept up in the moment” defense preconceptions. Only the super nutters would enter without fear of consequences. Third, another attempt would have to be a lot more organized and violent to the point that nobody in office could just say “it was a field trip with a couple of knuckleheads.”


----------



## GermanSuplex

So while republicans are worried about Biden's mental state, they're perfectly ok with Bill Barr knowing the president was either "out of his mind" or telling a harmful lie (Barr also said he thought these lies were damaging to the country). This was all under oath, and the conservative Trumpists are all just fine with it. Actually, they're not fine with it - they're mad at Bill Barr for being a "RINO".

Barr knew the sitting president was believing lies so ridiculous he was out of his mind, or that he was making up those lies and foisting them onto his supporters to fundraise. And Barr also knew the vermin hanging around Trump. Sounds like a national security concern to me. The president is nuts or lying (or both) and not listening to his advisers. And this is a guy who's resume has selling Sharper Image steaks and hosted a TV show on it - not what I'd call stellar qualifications out of the gate.

Yet Barr did nothing. He wrote Trump a resignation letter than may as well been an admission of his lust for Trump, because it sure as hell didn't sound like a letter written for the man Barr described under oath.

And yet, as despicable as his tenure was - where he essentially just used the justice department as a PR firm for Trump - he's probably one of the few in the party who at least somewhat did the right thing. I mean, he was a terrible AG, but I guess next to the people surrounding him he's one of the least worst.

But they all played a part in how we got to January 6, they've testified as such, and their plan going forward is to do nothing. The republicans and their media outlets are trying to combat everything, and I have no doubt when/if republicans gain power, they will really do some horrible things to try to rewrite the history books.


----------



## Cmaier

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I don’t see it happening again for a number of reasons. First, there would be A LOT more security. From experience security would know these aren’t just slightly rowdy protesters and they are perfectly able to injure or kill and certainly don’t side with the police on this one. Second, from a protester’s standpoint they will see that there were circumstances for individuals. There won’t be any “I just got swept up in the moment” defense preconceptions. Only the super nutters would enter without fear of consequences. Third, another attempt would have to be a lot more organized and violent to the point that nobody in office could just say “it was a field trip with a couple of knuckleheads.”




I think you’re missing my point, which is if they tried it again, it would work.  It doesn’t matter whether they get in and steal pelosi’s envelope again. The pressure from the massive crowd would be more than enough to remind pence and the republican congresspeople which way the base is pointed.  

Hell, next time there doesn’t even have to be a crowd. Look at who is being nominated for governor and Secretary of State across the country by the Republican Party.  If Pennsylvania or Arizona votes for a democrat but the governor and Secretary of State certify trump’s electors, who can stop them?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Jan. 6 committee is spectacle taking the place of politics: It will accomplish nothing
					

The aesthetic of spectacle is all the ruling class has left. Too bad it can't even stage an entertaining one




					www.salon.com
				




Ouch.  Nothing I really disagree with.


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> I think you’re missing my point, which is if they tried it again, it would work.  It doesn’t matter whether they get in and steal pelosi’s envelope again. The pressure from the massive crowd would be more than enough to remind pence and the republican congresspeople which way the base is pointed.
> 
> Hell, next time there doesn’t even have to be a crowd. Look at who is being nominated for governor and Secretary of State across the country by the Republican Party.  If Pennsylvania or Arizona votes for a democrat but the governor and Secretary of State certify trump’s electors, who can stop them?




I'm also concerned about attrition of nonpartisan / bipartisan workers in polling places and vote-counting centers, however those centers are defined by the various states' laws.   There have been so many stories in the news about threats to such workers and their families.  What ordinary citizen who shares responsibility for an accurate vote count needs death threats and doxxing as part of the occupational hazard,  just because some people may dislike how a vote went, whether the slot is for US Prez or dogcatcher?

The people taking their places may end up being those who are not only partisan but spoiling for a fight. It's not like everyone on the left will shrug off efforts by right wing partisans to corrupt vote-tallying.  Further, the extremists on either side may not care that the effect of their behavior ACTUALLY puts integrity of elections in doubt.  After all,  that's the whole point, at least for far too many on the right these days, particularly if they have been falsely convinced by the Trump playbook election gospel that there's no "clean" way to win an election any more.

We need leaders in both major parties to speak up for the historical and current integrity of our voting processes, but we're not hearing enough of that from Republicans.  As for the undermining influence of some of the characters on the Fox News Channel,  well...   too bad there's probably not a special place in hell for them.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> I think you’re missing my point, which is if they tried it again, it would work.  It doesn’t matter whether they get in and steal pelosi’s envelope again. The pressure from the massive crowd would be more than enough to remind pence and the republican congresspeople which way the base is pointed.
> 
> Hell, next time there doesn’t even have to be a crowd. Look at who is being nominated for governor and Secretary of State across the country by the Republican Party.  If Pennsylvania or Arizona votes for a democrat but the governor and Secretary of State certify trump’s electors, who can stop them?





I agree with the second part.  I don't agree that a mob of thousands storming the capital will be treated more leniently or given more sway the next time around.


----------



## Cmaier

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I agree with the second part.  I don't agree that a mob of thousands storming the capital will be treated more leniently or given more sway the next time around.




I never said anything about it being treated leniently. I only commented on whether if it happened now it would work.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I agree with the second part.  I don't agree that a mob of thousands storming the capital will be treated more leniently or given more sway the next time around.




I don't think we can say that.  We don't know enough about how police and the military rank and file are attached to the rule of law (as opposed to a given candidate's idea of law and order).  I'm mindful of the more than grain of truth in the assertion that a failed coup is practice for a successful one. 

Practice may not make for perfect but coup-plotters aren't known for letting perfect be the enemy of maybe-good-enough.   

Bolsonaro, for instance, has been working away at the potential need to retain power the hard way for quite awhile already.    Nieman Lab just ran an interview with the award-winning Brazilian journo and elections researcher Patricia Campos Mello.  The discussion was pretty eye-opening in terms of the Bolsonaro crew's willingness to threaten journalists asking about election transparency when Bolsonaro talks about how he won't put up with a rigged election.  What's perhaps more alarming is that the social media platforms seem to remain lukewarm about the idea of adequately curbing election-period shenanigans that may attempt to provoke mass violence and so justify a military response that essentially underwrites a coup.









						“Like a slow-motion coup”: Brazil is on the brink of a disinformation disaster
					

"I think about January 6, and the fact that Brazil is a much younger democracy. I’m really worried. Everybody knows this is going to happen, because every single day [President Jair Bolsonaro] says these things."



					www.niemanlab.org
				






> At this point, we [in Brazil] have a president that says every day that the elections are going to be rigged. He says he’s going to hire a private auditing company to audit the elections and that he’s going to have a parallel vote counting by the army. It’s like a slow-motion coup. When we ask the internet platforms, how are you preparing for this? What are you going to do if you have the president or one of his allies hosting a live video on Facebook saying, “You should go confront poll workers because they are stealing the election”? They don’t seem to have a plan.




Much like us in the USA,  ordinary Brazilians now see that their usual approach to rule of law seems to be having trouble dealing with willingness of political groups --those who are fearful of defeat at the polls and also willing to retain power at any cost-- to set about peddling disnformation provocative enough to invite chaos (and then a military crackdown) during an election period.  

It's sort of like we've shrugged off for way too long the idea that "all pols tell lies" and we've never stopped to weigh what that means, to debunk the corrolary that "so it doesn't matter if what they say is true or not".   We don't have any effective way right now to insist that this or that lie is a bridge way too far.  We might say that --for instance about Trump's false assertion that the 2020 election was stolen--   but the pols spreading such lies just shrug and double down on the BS, and their followers remain persuaded. 

The whole point of the effort of those pols is to make facts (and votes) irrelevant.   It's the traditional path to a strongman's government, and it depends on effectively cowing journalists and devaluing their work. 

As far as lessons learned from the January 6th insurrection,  surely  they remain to be seen.  Yes, some of the Americans now doing time on criminal charges might be quite bitter that Trump betrayed them in the end, i.e. he said he'd be with them as they marched upon the Capitol, but of course he was not, and he's not in the slam, and not likely to go there either. 

 But plenty of those who went there and have not been charged still think of the 1/6/21 event as a beginning, not an end to such antics.    And why not?  One of the two major parties in the USA still has leaders and candidates and elected officials who are signed up to that idea.   And that party's honchos, the leaders of the Republican National Committee,  formally censured the two Republicans who agreed to serve on the House's January 6th Committee.  One is not standing for re-election and the other was driven from her leadership post in the House for her stance on the insurrection. 





__





						DocumentCloud
					






					www.documentcloud.org
				




What are we to make of that?  What are Trump's followers to make of that?   That the GOP approved of an attempt to overturn a sitting US government, and disapproves of congressional hearings to unravel the impetus, leadership and execution of that plan which resulted in a violent breach of the Capitol.  Why shouldn't interested individuals figure that's a green light to get it right the next time around?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> I never said anything about it being treated leniently. I only commented on whether if it happened now it would work.





I don't know what you mean by work.  It sounds like you are saying that if a mob stormed the capital again in defense of keeping a president in office or putting a new one in then the government would cave to their demands.


----------



## Cmaier

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I don't know what you mean by work.  It sounds like you are saying that if a mob stormed the capital again in defense of keeping a president in office or putting a new one in then the government would cave to their demands.




I’m saying that if a crowd shows up demanding a Republican president be elected, then republican congresspeople will arrange for that to happen.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> I’m saying that if a crowd shows up demanding a Republican president be elected, then republican congresspeople will arrange for that to happen.




And I'm saying they are already taking care of that likelihood behind the scenes before the election.  A violent mob wouldn't help that scenario, only breed more resentment and legal action from those who aren't on board.  

Even Hitler learned that lesson pretty quickly.  Sure there were violent elements in his ascendency but it's not part of what ultimately gave him power.  If anything there were false flag violent operations blamed on his opposition.  It wasn't violent mobs in support of him.  

But in the US now, much like that time period in German history, the pre-Nazi government pretty much wasn't doing a damn thing to improve people's situation or give them much of a reason to defend the status quo.  Once you step back from the romanticism of democracy and also realize that isn't exactly what we have other than the thin veneer of putting people in office who will ultimately be ineffectual beyond serving the rich, it really is a hard sell to rally behind our fucked up broken system.  The establishment has zero interest in doing what needs to be done to fix our system and create a more equitable and healthy society.


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> And I'm saying they are already taking care of that likelihood behind the scenes before the election.  A violent mob wouldn't help that scenario, only breed more resentment and legal action from those who aren't on board.
> 
> Even Hitler learned that lesson pretty quickly.  Sure there were violent elements in his ascendency but it's not part of what ultimately gave him power.  If anything there were false flag violent operations blamed on his opposition.  It wasn't violent mobs in support of him.
> 
> But in the US now, much like that time period in German history, the pre-Nazi government pretty much wasn't doing a damn thing to improve people's situation or give them much of a reason to defend the status quo.  Once you step back from the romanticism of democracy and also realize that isn't exactly what we have other than the thin veneer of putting people in office who will ultimately be ineffectual beyond serving the rich, it really is a hard sell to rally behind our fucked up broken system.  The establishment has zero interest in doing what needs to be done to fix our system and create a more equitable and healthy society.



In the news it was mentioned this morning that election denier forces had already placed State Republican Secretaries of State into 2 key swing states for 2024 Ready to ensure a Republikan victory next time around. And when claims of election fraud are raised, they will say _tough shit, you did it to us last time.   _


----------



## Huntn

Cmaier said:


> he packed the court with folks he assumed would go along. If they had, then the military, police, etc. would go along with who the Supreme Court said is president.  If they intimidated congress into saying “hey, something fishy is going on these states. Legislatures of these states, please confirm who the electors are for us,” then they hoped that those legislatures would be intimidated into going along.  60% of the country might be appalled, disgusted, and outraged, but what are they going to do?
> 
> Next time they can skip some steps, because they are going to elect wacko secretaries of state who will make sure the only slate is a slate that was not elected.



Yep, this country is headed for a showdown, possibly a civil war, unless not enough care what we turn into, I already  see the argument, _they stole from us last time, it’s only fair we do it to them this time. _


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> In the news it was mentioned this morning that election denier forces had already placed State Republican Secretaries of State into 2 key swing states for 2024 Ready to ensure a Republikan victory next time around. And when claims of election fraud are raised, they will say _tough shit, you did it to us last time.  _




I still don't get how that is supposed to work.  The count comes back with their candidate losing and they go "no they didn't" and that's the end of it?   That's legal?   They could save everybody a lot of time if they just didn't let people vote and just handed it to their candidate which would be the same thing.


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I still don't get how that is supposed to work.  The count comes back with their candidate losing and they go "no they didn't" and that's the end of it?   That's legal?   They could save everybody a lot of time if they just didn't let people vote and just handed it to their candidate which would be the same thing.



First of all who controls that State’s government?

The last time Trump failed, it was because not enough government elements had been subverted. Some steps have been taken at the State level to correct this. 

I’m no expert on this, but I know what Trump forces wanted last time, a declaration of fraud and if the State has made provisions for the State legislature to overrule the board of elections, it’s a done deal. This is primary. The (State) Sec of State refuses to certify an election based on a vague claim of election fraud, the State Government agrees and electors for the Forces of Evil are put forward to count in the National election results.


----------



## JayMysteri0

This finally might get the focus it should have always gotten

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1537088723296604161/



> Capitol Police says Rep. Loudermilk's tour day before Trump riot wasn't suspicious
> 
> 
> Republicans said a letter from Capitol Police vindicated Rep. Barry Loudermilk, who was questioned about a tour a day before the riot by Trump supporters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com




The capital police says it wasn't suspicious, but the committee is still looking into it?



> ‘We’re Coming for You’: Man Given Tour of Capitol Complex by GOP Rep Showed Up During Riot the Next Day
> 
> 
> Footage shows a man outside the Capitol ahead of the riot on Jan. 6, after investigators say he had been taking pictures inside the complex during a tour a day earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedailybeast.com


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> Yep, this country is headed for a showdown, possibly a civil war, unless not enough care what we turn into, I already  see the argument, _they stole from us last time, it’s only fair we do it to them this time. _




The Republicans’ blanket obstruction is a two-pronged approach. The first most obvious is to let people know they shouldn’t rely on the government to help them out with anything. The second is to show that Democrats aren’t capable of changing that. So why even show up to vote.

Democrats have always been more fractured than Republicans, but with a thin majority they’ve shown keeping that division is more important than coming together for the greater good. What good does my California representation do when there’s a Joe Manchin and there’s nothing in Democrat history to suggest there will never not be a Joe Manchin.  But yeah, let’s rally to keep that bullshit steaming along!

There is hope though (assuming Republicans don’t completely dismantle democracy first), and this is where the Republicans exceled at the long game and Democrats have a lot to learn. Democrats tend to look to the top and if there isn’t a Democrat President or controlled Congress then all is fucked. Republicans have been working from the exact opposite angle. Start at the bottom and work your way up to where they are now. They’ve been grass rooting it for decades. This is why they are working on installing favorable secretaries of state while most Democrats probably didn’t even know what the secretary of state even does before Trump’s pressure on the 2020 election. Point being, quit looking entirely at the top for solutions and salvation. Look locally and move up from there.

I don’t know what to tell people who live in a red or purple state, but living in CA I don’t see us easily bending the knee to authoritarianism. There will be a fight backed by our state and local government.


----------



## Runs For Fun

JayMysteri0 said:


> This finally might get the focus it should have always gotten
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1537088723296604161/
> 
> 
> 
> The capital police says it wasn't suspicious, but the committee is still looking into it?



According to police, nothing suspicious 








						Police: Republican's tour of Capitol complex not suspicious
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — Police have determined there was nothing suspicious about a tour of two Capitol office buildings that a House Republican gave to about 15 people the day before Jan.




					apnews.com


----------



## Citysnaps

The recent Patriot Front snatch-n-grab by law enforcement (in Coeur d'Alene, no less) gives me some hope.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> First of all who controls that State’s government?
> 
> The last time Trump failed, it was because not enough government elements had been subverted. Some steps have been taken at the State level to correct this.
> 
> I’m no expert on this, but I know what Trump forces wanted last time, a declaration of fraud and if the State has made provisions for the State legislature to overrule the board of elections, it’s a done deal. This is primary. The (State) Sec of State refuses to certify an election based on a vague claim of election fraud, the State Government agrees and electors for the Forces of Evil are put forward to count in the National election results.





Still don't get it.  I don't believe you can just claim fraud and reverse a decision based entirely on just a claim, case closed. No recourse.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Runs For Fun said:


> According to police, nothing suspicious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police: Republican's tour of Capitol complex not suspicious
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — Police have determined there was nothing suspicious about a tour of two Capitol office buildings that a House Republican gave to about 15 people the day before Jan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com





Not sure if this is what happens, but I would like to think that anybody given a tour of a major government building would have to provide some form of ID and sign in.  Connect the dots from there.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Runs For Fun said:


> According to police, nothing suspicious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police: Republican's tour of Capitol complex not suspicious
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — Police have determined there was nothing suspicious about a tour of two Capitol office buildings that a House Republican gave to about 15 people the day before Jan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com



or maybe just more republican lies?


----------



## Citysnaps

fooferdoggie said:


> or maybe just more republican lies?




Yes. Sadly they have a history of having a casual relationship with the truth.  And that's a very generous assessment.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> First of all who controls that State’s government?
> 
> The last time Trump failed, it was because not enough government elements had been subverted. Some steps have been taken at the State level to correct this.
> 
> I’m no expert on this, but I know what Trump forces wanted last time, a declaration of fraud and if the State has made provisions for the State legislature to overrule the board of elections, it’s a done deal. This is primary. The (State) Sec of State refuses to certify an election based on a vague claim of election fraud, the State Government agrees and electors for the Forces of Evil are put forward to count in the National election results.












						"Cowboys for Trump" founder trying to throw out every primary vote
					

GOP-led panel blocks certification of election results over unspecified concerns about Dominion voting machines.




					www.salon.com
				




Seems like a small scale test run of what we are talking about, but sounds like the end result is a delay in certification pending an investigation, not an automatic win for the board's favored candidate.


----------



## Citysnaps

Speaking of elections...



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/15/rnc-election-integrity-trump-mcdaniel/
		


Wonderful:   _"The RNC’s state-based staffers are holding “election integrity training” events that encourage activists to become poll workers and poll watchers."_

And they have the audacity to use the word "integrity."  A real knee-slapper.  Smells like voter intimidation training to me.


----------



## Runs For Fun

citypix said:


> Speaking of elections...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/15/rnc-election-integrity-trump-mcdaniel/
> 
> 
> 
> Wonderful:   _"The RNC’s state-based staffers are holding “election integrity training” events that encourage activists to become poll workers and poll watchers."_
> 
> And they have the audacity to use the word "integrity."  A real knee-slapper.  Smells like voter intimidation to me.



This is part of their plan to overturn elections and it's quite disturbing. 








						‘It’s going to be an army’: Tapes reveal GOP plan to contest elections
					

Placing operatives as poll workers and building a "hotline" to friendly attorneys are among the strategies to be deployed in Michigan and other swing states.




					www.politico.com


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> This finally might get the focus it should have always gotten
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1537088723296604161/
> 
> 
> 
> The capital police says it wasn't suspicious, but the committee is still looking into it?



They’re white and wearing their mask on their chin. Clearly a TRUE PATRIOT (tm). Nothing to worry about!


----------



## SuperMatt

Today’s hearing was cancelled, but there will be one tomorrow, and 2 more:

*June 16, 2022: 1:00 p.m. Eastern
June 21, 2022: 1:00 p.m. Eastern
June 23, 2022: 1:00 p.m. Eastern*

Anybody can feel free to edit the WikiPost if you can. I have a permissions error that has been impossible to resolve.


----------



## JayMysteri0

SuperMatt said:


> Today’s hearing was cancelled, but there will be one tomorrow, and 2 more:
> 
> *June 16, 2022: 1:00 p.m. Eastern
> June 21, 2022: 1:00 p.m. Eastern
> June 23, 2022: 1:00 p.m. Eastern*
> 
> Anybody can feel free to edit the WikiPost if you can. I have a permissions error that has been impossible to resolve.



It wasn't cancelled.

It was just moved to next week, to keep the number of hearings a little more manageable each week.*
_*That was an explanation the congresswoman gave Rachel Maddow last night._



> Why Wednesday's Jan. 6 Committee Hearing Is Postponed
> 
> 
> Former President Donald Trump said that the third hearing was postponed due to "very poor television ratings."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

SuperMatt said:


> They’re white and wearing their mask on their chin. Clearly a TRUE PATRIOT (tm). Nothing to worry about!



You'll notice, it's the ONLY they were masks on their chins.

Any other time if it's full face gear they can work that mask right.


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Still don't get it.  I don't believe you can just claim fraud and reverse a decision based entirely on just a claim, case closed. No recourse.



You mean like how politicians can ignore evidence of treason and fail to impeach? 
For Jan6:


_There was fraud!_
Fraud documentation provided  by any number of GOP fiction writer accomplishes.  Think of the Dominion voter accusation. . Think boxes of fraudulent voter dumps being delivered in Detroit at all hours as cited by the Head POS.
_Let’s take a vote, was there fraud, how do you feel in your heart?_
_Yes, lots of fraud! It’s unanimous, put forth the Trump electors!_
Here is the key, if the GOP can do it they will. They don’t care as long as STUPID back home cheers them and no one has the power to arrest them. Look at how they orchestrated at least one new SCOTUS Justice. They denied Obama‘s chance because…they could and there was no one able or willing to stop them.

Look at how Justice Thomas’s wife conducted herself during the 2020 election Communicating with crucial state GOP officials. All that is required is a vague accusation of fraud, no-evidence-required.


----------



## Yoused

Huntn said:


> because…they could and there was no one able or willing to stop them



There was this guy, he used to be an "actor" (I saw one movie where he did not quite amberheard the bed, but only just), he became the big wonderful hero of the Rs and their _Destroy the Govenment!_ movement. One of his big, loud drumbeats was "_Never speak ill of a fellow R_." The R Party forms a hive, a firm bloc of _we got each others backs_, which is what makes it so hard to fight their stupid. To go against Yertle would have been suicide for any R.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> You mean like how politicians can ignore evidence of treason and fail to impeach?
> For Jan6:
> 
> 
> _There was fraud!_
> Fraud documentation provided  by any number of GOP fiction writer accomplishes.  Think of the Dominion voter accusation. . Think boxes of fraudulent voter dumps being delivered in Detroit at all hours as cited by the Head POS.
> _Let’s take a vote, was there fraud, how do you feel in your heart?_
> _Yes, lots of fraud! It’s unanimous, put forth the Trump electors!_
> Here is the key, if the GOP can do it they will. They don’t care as long as STUPID back home cheers them and no one has the power to arrest them. Look at how they orchestrated at least one new SCOTUS Justice. They denied Obama‘s chance because…they could and there was no one able or willing to stop them.
> 
> Look at how Justice Thomas’s wife conducted herself during the 2020 election Communicating with crucial state GOP officials. All that is required is a vague accusation of fraud, no-evidence-required.




I think a lot of it comes down to Democrat politicians just giving up and not wanting to play hard ball.  They’d rather lose than not be seen as the nice guy.  Their potential voters see that and they lose that vote as a result.  They probably won’t vote Republican.  They just won’t vote which is also part of the Republican playbook.  Show people its pointless to fight back or to believe the Democrats are capable of fighting back and winning that fight.  Trump showed Republicans they no longer have to lie about who they are and it will cost them very little at the polls. Has to be a huge weight off their back.


----------



## Yoused

Spoiler: funny how well Will aged


----------



## JayMysteri0

JayMysteri0 said:


> This finally might get the focus it should have always gotten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Capitol Police says Rep. Loudermilk's tour day before Trump riot wasn't suspicious
> 
> 
> Republicans said a letter from Capitol Police vindicated Rep. Barry Loudermilk, who was questioned about a tour a day before the riot by Trump supporters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The capital police says it wasn't suspicious, but the committee is still looking into it?




Now the capitol police are suspicious.

So if you follow along.  Loudermilk claimed he didn't give a tour.  Got upset about accusations he did, claims he & other republicans looked at footage and found nothing.  Then video shows up and suddenly he DID give a tour, but it was a family.  We now find out that one of that "family" was at 1/6 and wanting some congress people.






Capitol head cop says nothing was suspicious because the tour didn't go into specific areas, but it did & the tour was for hours.

It's clear and was pointed out that on Jan 3rd covid restrictions were still in place and NO tours were allowed.  Even capitol police couldn't bring family members in.

WTF?!

This really needs it own bright intense focus.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1537105522893238272/


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I think a lot of it comes down to Democrat politicians just giving up and not wanting to play hard ball.  They’d rather lose than not be seen as the nice guy.  Their potential voters see that and they lose that vote as a result.  They probably won’t vote Republican.  They just won’t vote which is also part of the Republican playbook.  Show people its pointless to fight back or to believe the Democrats are capable of fighting back and winning that fight.  Trump showed Republicans they no longer have to lie about who they are and it will cost them very little at the polls. Has to be a huge weight off their back.



I don’t disagree, if there is a time to stand up for principles might as well do it now versus this slow corrosive drip eating away at us.  When we allow our selfish, racist politics to trump criminality, when our laws and rights are illusions, a third are for it, and the other two thirds don’t care, we are screwed and rightfully so.  When over half the voters in 2024 election picks The Head POS to finish the job he started in 2016, it’s just another variation of the Jonestown Cult or civil war Pt2.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> I don’t disagree, if there is a time to stand up for principles might as well do it now versus this slow corrosive drip eating away at us.  When we allow our selfish, racist politics to trump criminality, when our laws and rights are illusions, a third are for it, and the other two thirds don’t care, we are screwed and rightfully so.  When over half the voters in 2024 election picks The Head POS to finish the job he started in 2016, it’s just another variation of the Jonestown Cult or civil war Pt2.




Also Democrats need to stop trying to almost entirely appeal to center right moderates. Clearly Manchin is an outlier and pariah within the party and yet that’s the worldview the establishment Democrats think they need to court the most. It’s their own minority rule microbubble. 

Who are the candidates that people got excited to vote for in recent history?

Obama
Sanders
Trump

Not a middle of the road candidate in there. In Obama’s case its mostly based on his race but that still was a major step for our country that can’t be seen as insignificant. People who think we’re going to middle of the road ourselves out of this mess live in their own delusional bubble clutching the pearls of a bygone reality that doesn’t exist for most people. Major change is needed, not fighting to preserve a system that has either failed or screwed most people.


----------



## Roller

The days of landslide victories in U.S. presidential elections (e.g., Reagan over Mondale) are probably long gone. With few exceptions, Republicans will vote for any one who isn’t a Democrat and vice versa. Given the antiquated, undemocratic electoral college system, it doesn’t take much to swing the pendulum one way or another. Republicans have already laid the groundwork by enacting voter suppression laws and putting in people who will create enough chaos to throw key state results in doubt.

The judiciary by and large held firm against Giuliani and his keystone cops in 2020, but I have little faith for 2022 and 2024. And I have just as little confidence in the SCOTUS acting as a reliable backstop with people like Ginni Thomas feeding seditious talk to her husband.


----------



## Alli

Very much looking forward to this afternoon’s hearing.


----------



## SuperMatt

Alli said:


> Very much looking forward to this afternoon’s hearing.



Today’s witnesses are Pence advisors.


----------



## SuperMatt

Video of rioters calling for the killing of Pence… with very colorful language…


----------



## Alli

I can’t watch much more of this judge. Is he having a stroke or is he just not able to speak? He sounds like he’s doing a parody of Cpt. Kirk.


----------



## Cmaier

Alli said:


> I can’t watch much more of this judge. Is he having a stroke or is he just not able to speak? He sounds like he’s doing a parody of Cpt. Kirk.




Also: why do I care? he isn’t a witness. He’s just a guy offering an opinion. Sure, he’s got conservative credentials, but we’re not going to learn anything new from a guy who wasn’t there.


----------



## SuperMatt

Jared Kushner is a complete and utter piece of … ”sorry I’m too busy pardoning rich crooks to care about lawyers whining about the election”


----------



## SuperMatt

The main takeaway is supposed to be that the Vice President cannot unilaterally overturn the election. I guess the other takeaway is that Trump knew that and pushed the narrative anyway.


----------



## SuperMatt

I found this interesting: Mike Pence apparently starts each day with a staff prayer meeting, often led by a staff member. Gotta be a Christian to be on his staff I guess…


----------



## SuperMatt

Trump tried to badger Pence into illegally overturning the election, with shouting and name calling (wimp and p***y) on Jan 6.

Pence, like everybody at that point, was tired of his shouting and knew he was a lame duck, and ignored him.


----------



## SuperMatt

Even AFTER the attack on the Capitol, Mr. Eastman passed along a request pressuring Pence to overturn the election at around 11pm the night of Jan 6.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Trump is demanding equal airtime to put out his evidence of voter fraud and crimes by Democrats.  Yes please.  Let's do that.  Hopefully that exact thing will take place in court where more than just his ego is on the line.


----------



## SuperMatt

Judge Luttig offers a closing statement.

…

And America changes the channel.


----------



## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Trump is demanding equal airtime to put out his evidence of voter fraud and crimes by Democrats.  Yes please.  Let's do that.  Hopefully that exact thing will take place in court where more than just his ego is on the line.



It would be hours of endless nonsensical and incoherent rambling, shit, even Fox & Friends cut him off after 20 minutes. Nobody would air it and he's not organized enough to put together a real rebuttal. Let him rant on "Truth" Social.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Trump is demanding equal airtime to put out his evidence of voter fraud and crimes by Democrats.  Yes please.  Let's do that.  Hopefully that exact thing will take place in court where more than just his ego is on the line.



he already has over and over again. sorry just cause he can say something does not make it real provide evidence.


----------



## SuperMatt

They breezed by some evidence that I think will end up being a big deal.

Some of the people who supported the ”stop the steal” nonsense and tried to get Pence to overturn the election… asked for pardons immediately after it didn’t work out. This indicates they knew their behavior was criminal, but engaged in it, expecting a pardon.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Jason Miller is such a fraud. His testimony makes clear he knew all of this was BS, but he does the rounds anyways and pushes the big lie.

What a joke. Arrest all these people. They all saw this, none of them tried legitimately to stop it, and that includes Pence who, despite ultimately doing the right thing, made no effort to bring awareness to the criminal plot his leader was plotting. And we still won’t. Unless he testifies in front of this committee and condemns his former boss, he’s a loser too.


----------



## SuperMatt

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1537486867955716096/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

fooferdoggie said:


> he already has over and over again. sorry just cause he can say something does not make it real provide evidence.




And that's why I'm saying we should make him put it all out there in a legal setting.   He'd probably spend years in jail just for his repeated and rampant contempt of court nonsensical outbursts.  

And make him a defendant forced to sit there the entire time.  I know he's well known for constant litigation, but I'm willing to bet for most of it it's just his lawyers and he isn't even present.    

I know there are those who believe that if we give him more airtime or put him on the hot seat then that's just going to fire up his base more.  Well, what do you think it's going to do if we just let him walk away unscathed?  What's the lesson and message to his supporters there?

And don't get me started on our completely hypocritical "law and order" institutions.  Assuming things will go where it looks like they are going to go, our supreme court "won't be bullied" by majority public opinion on Roe v Wade but the justice department will be bullied by a minority of psychopath opinions to not prosecute Trump.  Both cases, minority rule.


----------



## Eric

People can say what they want about Pence but he stood up and did the right thing in the face of Trump, his wrath and his rioters that day and deserves respect for it.


----------



## Yoused

SuperMatt said:


> they knew their behavior was criminal, but engaged in it, expecting a pardon



Not exactly. They believed they were doing "the right thing" and when they succeeded, they would get medals from the PreЦарdent and be hailed as heroes for saving the country. A fighter on the losing side knows that war does not decide who is right, only who is left, and they are not war crimes if you win.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Maybe as a consolation prize we can at least get a new monument on the national mall, The Tower of Cowards.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> People can say what they want about Pence but he stood up and did the right thing in the face of Trump, his wrath and his rioters that day and deserves respect for it.



But was it Him or his fly that did it? but then he flopped on his back and gave trump his belly.


----------



## Eric

fooferdoggie said:


> But was it Him or his fly that did it? but then he flopped on his back and gave trump his belly.



His aides tried to convince him to leave the grounds and he refused, saying it was his duty to stay behind and finish with the vote counts to certify, which he did even though it showed he and Trump lost. It was a standup move on his part.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> His aides tried to convince him to leave the grounds and he refused, saying it was his duty to stay behind and finish with the vote counts to certify, which he did even though it showed he and Trump lost. It was a standup move on his part.



till it came tim rewmoving trump then he flopped on his back and showed his belly to trump.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> His aides tried to convince him to leave the grounds and he refused, saying it was his duty to stay behind and finish with the vote counts to certify, which he did even though it showed he and Trump lost. It was a standup move on his part.





I heard it was out of fear of being disappeared or sidelined if he left.  I can't really say I blame him if that was true.  In that moment I'd say he probably felt he had more allies in congress members than outside.  The President and his mob certainly weren't on his side and who knows which side members of security were on.  Nobody knew how deep the conspiracy reached.  It already went well beyond what a reasonable person would consider possible.


----------



## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I heard it was out of fear of being disappeared or sidelined if he left.  I can't really say I blame him if that was true.  In that moment I'd say he probably felt he had more allies in congress members than outside.  The President and his mob certainly weren't on his side and who knows which side members of security were on.  Nobody knew how deep the conspiracy reached.  It already went well beyond what a reasonable person would consider possible.



Just pointing out what his aid said under oath during today's testimony, they pretty much thought Trump was off his rocker (which he was) and wanted to proceed once the rioters had gone.


----------



## Alli

I also want to know more about Chuck Grassley. Why did he think Pence would not return to complete the count? Why did he think he’d be there instead?



SuperMatt said:


> Jared Kushner is a complete and utter piece of … ”sorry I’m too busy pardoning rich crooks to care about lawyers whining about the election”



Kushner is enough to make this Jew anti-Semitic.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> People can say what they want about Pence but he stood up and did the right thing in the face of Trump, his wrath and his rioters that day and deserves respect for it.




Yeah, but why did he keep all of this hidden? He was sort of simultaneously protecting Trump. His action was huge, but at the same time, the literal least he could do. Where is he at? Why doesn’t he testify? Why not at least publically rebuke Trump beyond just saying “I couldn’t overturn the election”?

Its sort of like protecting someone from a predator - no doubt to be commended - but then not calling the cops, which leaves the person free to carry on.

Trump is continually pushing this lies, it’s only gained steam since Jan. 6, and few if any of these people have a true backbone. How can someone who cares about this country sit by while a dolt like Trump is engaging in all of this horrible conduct?


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> People can say what they want about Pence but he stood up and did the right thing in the face of Trump, his wrath and his rioters that day and deserves respect for it.




Eh. He did the politically-expedient thing for his own future candidacy (he was never going to win running as a MAGA, and at the time it looked like Trump was trying to set up a family dynasty). He didn’t stand up and tell the world what was going on the prior four years, which is part of what allowed it to get to this. He didn’t try to stop trump all the prior chances he had. He didn’t invoke the 25th amendment. He didn’t testify.  I’m not going to pat him on the back for not participating in the coup.  Not going to set the bar that low.

If he came forward and testified - “this is what Trump told me. This is what the plan was.“ - so that we can get to the bottom of it, maybe get some justice, and maybe stop it from happening again - then he will have done something.


----------



## Yoused

Out of curiosity, I thought it would be interesting to see murdoch-like coverage of the hearings. Which was a fool's errand. I mean you can only scroll so far down the page in futility before the newsea makes your gorge rise and you either have to run to the bathroom or close the page.


----------



## Runs For Fun

SuperMatt said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1537486867955716096/



LMAO . I was actually wondering if the audio was cutting out or the stream was buffering as I was watching it on YouTube.


----------



## Cmaier

Runs For Fun said:


> LMAO . I was actually wondering if the audio was cutting out or the stream was buffering as I was watching it on YouTube.




He struck me as the sort of guy who thinks every word out of his mouth is an absolute pearl of wisdom, a precious jewel of incomprehensible worth that the listener must savor and contemplate in order to fully understand the many levels of genius embodied in each and every sentence.


----------



## Citysnaps

I think he may have been suffering from some kind of medical condition; perhaps an underlying neurologic disorder affecting speech - there's a range of possibilities that can cause slow speech - especially at his age. I absolutely don't think he was trying to put on any kind of airs. To me it was clear he was struggling.

I liked what he had to say.


----------



## Yoused

And they play the recording back at normal speed. These broadcasters all have the Time Machine, used to compress shows to give them more room for ads, but they cannot be arsed to use it on that. Come on.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Dupe


----------



## JayMysteri0

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Trump is demanding equal airtime to put out his evidence of voter fraud and crimes by Democrats.  Yes please.  Let's do that.  Hopefully that exact thing will take place in court where more than just his ego is on the line.



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1537481164860010496/


----------



## GermanSuplex

He can demand his son come home from the coke dealers house for all I care. He had his chance. This is more gaslighting of his base. I'm sure the January 6 committee would be perfectly happy to listen to Trump absolve himself under oath.


----------



## Alli

citypix said:


> I think he may have been suffering from some kind of medical condition; perhaps an underlying neurologic disorder affecting speech - there's a range of possibilities that can cause slow speech - especially at his age. I absolutely don't think he was trying to put on any kind of airs. To me it was clear he was struggling.
> 
> I liked what he had to say.



After listening to him for all that time, it occurred to me he might have something like COPD. When he had the breath he spoke, when he didn’t he struggled.


----------



## Cmaier

And here we go with Pence: https://apple.news/ASr4AQ9QQQb-xNo5NhwlmiA (he’s running)


----------



## Alli

Cmaier said:


> And here we go with Pence: https://apple.news/ASr4AQ9QQQb-xNo5NhwlmiA (he’s running)



Indicating that he’s totally out of touch, as well as willing to cover up felonies.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Cmaier said:


> And here we go with Pence: https://apple.news/ASr4AQ9QQQb-xNo5NhwlmiA (he’s running)



so his fly is still alive and running his life?


----------



## Citysnaps

Alli said:


> After listening to him for all that time, it occurred to me he might have something like COPD. When he had the breath he spoke, when he didn’t he struggled.




What I picked on was his total lack of natural facial and body animation, comparing him to Greg Jacob sitting next to him (he was super animated) and members sitting on the Jan 6th panel. Having not seen him walk into or out of the hearing room it's hard to say.   Dysarthria, ALS, and Parkinson's (my father had that) seemed like possibilities.  Just felt like normal body movement/animation was amiss.

But I'm waaaay out of my league on guessing from afar - or at all.   I'm just stoked I recently learned how to compute the area of square only knowing the length of one side.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> People can say what they want about Pence but he stood up and did the right thing in the face of Trump, his wrath and his rioters that day and deserves respect for it.









“Everybody’s favorite murder pilgrim….if somebody told you an American politician was possessed by a malevolent corn god you’d be “Is it Mike Pence? I bet it’s Mike Pence”


----------



## DT

I hope he checked with Mother first ...


----------



## DT

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> “Everybody’s favorite murder pilgrim….if somebody told you an American politician was possessed by a malevolent corn god you’d be “Is it Mike Pence? I bet it’s Mike Pence”





So I guess he wants VP Malachai too ...


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Here’s an indisputable fact. If that rally was organized and led by the average citizen with the same end result that person would have been tried and sentenced to prison already. But if it’s a politician or the rich we get “It’s complicated. I’m not sure we can charge them with anything.” Fuck off.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Trump wanted a different insurrection: Jan. 6 hearing reveals violent intent behind Pence plot | Salon.com

TL;DR

Trump already had his trigger finger on the insurrection act during the George Floyd protests but had to be begged not to use it. If he managed to flip the election he would have used it against the angry left in a heartbeat. Every hyper hypocrite action has and will be used by Republicans at every opportunity.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Trump wanted a different insurrection: Jan. 6 hearing reveals violent intent behind Pence plot | Salon.com
> 
> TL;DR
> 
> Trump already had his trigger finger on the insurrection act during the George Floyd protests but had to be begged not to use it. If he managed to flip the election he would have used it against the angry left in a heartbeat. Every hyper hypocrite action has and will be used by Republicans at every opportunity.



I've said it all too often.  For some republicans who supposedly hate big gov't, the real reason for gov't is for it be used AGAINST it's own citizens to keep them in line with a specific thinking.  Nothing else.  If gov't does anything else, it becomes "imperious".  Irony isn't dead with them.

Has anyone really forgotten Bill Barr and his secret police flown in from Texas corrections?  Yet in Texas some people used to believe that military war games there were actually a plot by Obama to take guns.






My mind reels at the amount & level of fuckery that last administration did in such a short period of time.


----------



## SuperMatt

The testimony yesterday was all about the illegality of a Vice President attempting to overturn an election by refusing to certify the results.

We also heard testimony that Trump was told by many, many lawyers that such a thing would be illegal, but he still advocated for it.

Do you think he learned his lesson? That he might stop now that there’s a risk he could face legal consequences for pushing this illegal action?

Nah.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1537877236019302401/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Faux News having an issue or two with the Jan 6th hearing?








> Fox News will air January 6 hearings, reflecting split between news and hosts
> 
> 
> Anchor Bret Baier said Trump looked ‘really bad’ last week as hosts continue to call the proceedings a sham
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com





> Last week, Fox News was the only major outlet not to air the primetime hearing hosted by the House committee investigating the January 6 riot at the US Capitol. But for the committee’s daytime session on Monday, Fox plans to join the rest of the pack.
> 
> Fox officials are apparently justifying the switch by saying that prime time is for opinion hosts like Tucker Carlson, who rejected live coverage of Thursday evening’s hearing, CNN reported. Daytime, however, is for news, opening the door for Fox to televise Monday’s session live at 10am ET.
> 
> The decision by the conservative-leaning network to air the hearing comes amid a discernible split between the network’s news and commentary broadcasts about the meaning of what happened last week and the value of what’s in store.
> 
> News anchor Bret Baier said Donald Trump looked “really bad” in a video presentation shown at Thursday’s January 6 primetime session
> 
> “The focus seems to be the target of President Donald Trump, and he looks really bad in this presentation,” Baier said. “He’s just watching the TVs and kind of applauding what’s happening.”
> 
> Baier also noted that the video of Trump’s speech was cut off before he told the crowd to “peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard”.
> 
> At the same time, Fox News’ more politically attuned hosts have continued to disparage the hearings. Host Mark Levin described hearings as a “sham” over the weekend.
> 
> “This will go down in history as a dark mark on the American political system,” Levin said, adding: “It’s an abomination to the American system, not just of justice but our congressional and representative system.”
> 
> During Thursday’s hearings, host Tucker Carlson broadcast an hour-long, commercial-free discussion of alternative interpretations of the deadly riot, including that it had been instigated by FBI agents.


----------



## Alli

citypix said:


> What I picked on was his total lack of natural facial and body animation, comparing him to Greg Jacob sitting next to him (he was super animated) and members sitting on the Jan 6th panel. Having not seen him walk into or out of the hearing room it's hard to say. Dysarthria, ALS, and Parkinson's (my father had that) seemed like possibilities. Just felt like normal body movement/animation was amiss.



Turns out he had a stroke recently, and that is the cause for his speech pattern.


----------



## SuperMatt

Why are so many people detached from reality?









						'Impeachment No. 3': Jan. 6 panel isn't swaying these swing-state Republicans — NBC News
					

For some in politically volatile Washoe County, Nevada, the committee has hardened partisan views, spawned more conspiracies or deepened fealty toward Trump.




					apple.news
				






> He called the Jan. 6 committee flawed because it has “nobody on it with opposing views” to the majority on the panel of Democrats and what he called “anti-Trumpers” like Cheney.
> 
> While Berenato doesn’t believe Trump’s false claim that the 2020 election was stolen, he still thought the former president’s pursuit of election audits and lawsuits were worthy “because there were a lot of irregularities and shenanigans going on in several swing states.”
> 
> Many other voters interviewed dug in on 2020 election denialism and repeatedly brought up the need for election integrity. They slammed the mainstream media — including Fox News — and even suggested that the witnesses, nearly all of whom so far have been Republican men, were coerced into their testimony.





> Several Nevada Republicans interviewed contend Barr’s testimony was “trash” and quickly discarded Stepien — who continues to advise Trump-aligned candidates — into a heap of traitorous RINOs (Republican in Name Only) attempting to take out Trump.
> 
> “*You’ve got the liberal mass media, completely controlled with a narrative that’s sent out to all of them at about 4 a.m. in the morning*,” said Donald Fossum, a supporter rallying outside Reno High School for the unsuccessful Senate GOP candidate Sam Brown. “That’s why you can read their lips on your screen; they’re all saying the same thing.”
> 
> Fossum, who dubbed himself “your local cut-the-crap guy,” stopped himself from going on, saying: “*We are being careful in our realm to not sound conspiratorial*.”



Not careful enough.  

Where do I sign up to get my copy of the liberal mass media narrative in my email at 4am?

This is not fringe stuff anymore sadly. I think we are probably into the millions of people who believe the lies to varying degrees.


----------



## Alli

Alli said:


> Turns out he had a stroke recently, and that is the cause for his speech pattern.



And that was incorrect as well. Heard from the horse’s mouth.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538266515107106816/


----------



## Cmaier

Alli said:


> And that was incorrect as well. Heard from the horse’s mouth.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538266515107106816/




I feel terrible if there was a health reason for his speech, but the thing I was focussed on was not the pace, but the long-winded non-answers.  “you said there is a clear and present danger - what did you mean by that?” “earlier I talked about Thomas jefferson, and that reminds me of larks, and the fact that they are not actually all that happy… (10 thousand words later)… and that is why the best flavor of ice cream is swirls.”

He was pontificating, and not directly answering questions.  Yeah, doing so slowly didn’t help, but he avoided giving direct answers and instead gave lectures on things that he felt like lecturing about.


----------



## Citysnaps

NPR's Adrian Florido interviewed Judge Luttig yesterday about the dangers American democracy is facing. It's 7 minutes long and a good listen.









						Former federal judge warns of danger to American democracy
					

NPR's Adrian Florido speaks with retired federal judge J. Michael Luttig about his testimony during a recent Jan. 6 committee hearing.




					www.npr.org


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Eric said:


> People can say what they want about Pence but he stood up and did the right thing in the face of Trump, his wrath and his rioters that day and deserves respect for it.



Okay, but where is he now? The Big Lie not only caused turmoil in the nation but endangered his life. Had the mob reached him he likely would have been killed, with Trump egging them on. He should come forward and in the strongest possible language denounce the Big Lie and clearly state that Biden is the duly elected president. Has he done that?


----------



## Citysnaps

mac_in_tosh said:


> Okay, but where is he now? The Big Lie not only caused turmoil in the nation but endangered his life. Had the mob reached him he likely would have been killed, with Trump egging them on. He should come forward and in the strongest possible language denounce the Big Lie and clearly state that Biden is the duly elected president. Has he done that?




I heard on the evening news Pence may be testifying at the Jan6th hearings this week.

_"and clearly state that Biden is the duly elected president."_

Based on his actions on Jan 6th I don't think there's any doubt he believes that.


----------



## Cmaier

citypix said:


> I heard on the evening news Pence may be testifying at the Jan6th hearings this week.
> 
> _"and clearly state that Biden is the duly elected president."_
> 
> Based on his actions on Jan 6th I don't think there's any doubt he believes that.




I haven’t seen anywhere that says he will testify - all I’ve seen is that the committee may subpoena him to testify.  Do you have a link to a source?

Also, republicans like to draw a distinction. They won’t say Biden won. They will say he is “duly elected president.”  They like to thread the needle - yeah there were shenanigans, but he’s in on a loophole.


----------



## Citysnaps

Cmaier said:


> I haven’t seen anywhere that says he will testify - all I’ve seen is that the committee may subpoena him to testify. Do you have a link to a source?




I may have misheard/misinterpreted - it was on the evening news.


----------



## Eric

New poll...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538884604182122504/


----------



## Edd

Eric said:


> New poll...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538884604182122504/



Too low, though.


----------



## DT

Edd said:


> Too low, though.




Well, the other 40% think he's still president, the Coronavirus vaccine contains nanobots, and we should burn books that teach the actual, racist history of the US ...

So I'm just happy it's over 50%


----------



## Citysnaps

Here's a pretty good essay on what Garland might be weighing in charging trump. From a previous US Assistant Attorney general, and office of legal counsel under Bush:









						Opinion | Prosecute Trump? Put Yourself in Merrick Garland’s Shoes.
					

The attorney general will have to make three decisions, each more difficult than the previous, and none of which has an obvious answer.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Yoused

Eric said:


> New poll...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538884604182122504/



60% of Americans are represented by 12% of Senators.


----------



## Roller

citypix said:


> Here's a pretty good essay on what Garland might be weighing in charging trump. From a previous US Assistant Attorney general, and office of legal counsel under Bush:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | Prosecute Trump? Put Yourself in Merrick Garland’s Shoes.
> 
> 
> The attorney general will have to make three decisions, each more difficult than the previous, and none of which has an obvious answer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



I read this and tend to agree with the author. If Garland concludes that Trump violated Federal statutes and believes there is enough evidence to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, not proceeding with prosecution would be devastating. It makes me think of Trump's infamous pronouncement that he could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and not lose any voters. What would the DOJ do if he pulled out a gun at his next rally and shot at a member of the press, grazing them? Would that be considered more worthy of prosecution than what he's already done, essentially taking direct aim at our democracy?


----------



## Citysnaps

Roller said:


> I read this and tend to agree with the author. If Garland concludes that Trump violated Federal statutes and believes there is enough evidence to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, not proceeding with prosecution would be devastating. It makes me think of Trump's infamous pronouncement that he could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and not lose any voters. What would the DOJ do if he pulled out a gun at his next rally and shot at a member of the press, grazing them? Would that be considered more worthy of prosecution than what he's already done, essentially taking direct aim at our democracy?




My sense is Garland's bar to prosecute will be high.  Hopefully all of the evidence and testimony collected over the last year and a half will be sufficient.  We're up to 865 arrested and charged from Jan6th. Looking forward to tomorrow's House committee hearing.


----------



## Roller

citypix said:


> My sense is Garland's bar to prosecute will be high.  Hopefully all of the evidence and testimony collected over the last year and a half will be sufficient.  We're up to 865 arrested and charged from Jan6th. Looking forward to tomorrow's House committee hearing.



Probably a higher bar than any in the history of prosecutions in the U.S., though I'll note that other countries (Italy, France, and Israel come to mind) have indicted and/or prosecuted former leaders. In this country, though, either being voted out of office or impeachment are usually put forth as remedies for presidential malfeasance, though we know how ineffective they've been in Trump's case.

Garland has been widely criticized for being quiet and not showing his cards. But I think that's a good thing in this case. He's clearly aware of all the issues at stake and the need to be meticulous.


----------



## Citysnaps

Roller said:


> Garland has been widely criticized for being quiet and not showing his cards. But I think that's a good thing in this case. He's clearly aware of all the issues at stake and the need to be meticulous.




Especially with trump believing Barr was his personal personal attorney to order around.


----------



## SuperMatt

citypix said:


> Especially with trump believing Barr was his personal personal attorney to order around.



He was... until it went so far that he feared he might do time for it being TOO criminal. How else do you explain his dishonest “summary” of the Mueller Report? Or his appointing of Durham to investigate BS claims about Hillary Clinton? Or, or or....









						Bill Barr Was Worse Than You Thought
					

Charles Sykes on how the attorney general blustered, fought, and stalled his way through a contentious appearance before Congress.




					www.thebulwark.com
				




So yeah, based on his past actions, I can see why Trump might just think Barr was his personal attorney!

Barr’s not a hero. He’s a piece of crap... just SLIGHTLY less a piece of crap than Trump. I’m not going to give him a pass because he decided a violent overthrow of the government was the one illegal activity that went too far for his taste.


----------



## Citysnaps

SuperMatt said:


> He was... until it went so far that he feared he might do time for it being TOO criminal. How else do you explain his dishonest “summary” of the Mueller Report? Or his appointing of Durham to investigate BS claims about Hillary Clinton? Or, or or....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Barr Was Worse Than You Thought
> 
> 
> Charles Sykes on how the attorney general blustered, fought, and stalled his way through a contentious appearance before Congress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thebulwark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So yeah, based on his past actions, I can see why Trump might just think Barr was his personal attorney!
> 
> Barr’s not a hero. He’s a piece of crap... just SLIGHTLY less a piece of crap than Trump. I’m not going to give him a pass because he decided a violent overthrow of the government was the one illegal activity that went too far for his taste.




Didn't mean to suggest he didn't end up essentially being trump's personal attorney.  The handwriting was on the wall with the "release" of the Mueller report.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

citypix said:


> _"and clearly state that Biden is the duly elected president."_
> 
> Based on his actions on Jan 6th I don't think there's any doubt he believes that.



He may believe it but millions of Trump's followers don't. It would help immensely if he would make a strong public announcement calling out Trump's Big Lie.

So what is holding him back? Does he want to run for president and he has to count on support from Trump's deplorables? Does he fear being disloyal to the GOP? For heavens sake, an actual insurrection was unleashed by Trump and the mob would have killed Pence had they caught him. That's not enough?


----------



## Citysnaps

mac_in_tosh said:


> He may believe it but millions of Trump's followers don't. It would help immensely if he would make a strong public announcement calling out Trump's Big Lie.
> 
> So what is holding him back? Does he want to run for president and he has to count on support from Trump's deplorables? Does he fear being disloyal to the GOP? For heavens sake, an actual insurrection was unleashed by Trump and the mob would have killed Pence had they caught him. That's not enough?




Likely because there's no upside right now.

By law, Pence certified the electoral votes for the election. As has every other VP after a presidential election. Saying anything else at that proceeding would be out of line.

What he chooses to do in the future will no doubt be gamed out by him and his advisors. His choice.


----------



## SuperMatt

citypix said:


> Likely because there's no upside right now.
> 
> By law, Pence certified the electoral votes for the election. As has every other VP after a presidential election. Saying anything else at that proceeding would be out of line.
> 
> What he chooses to do in the future will no doubt be gamed our by him and his advisors. His choice.



Yep… challenging the “big lie” means you are kicked out of the GOP in 2022. Pence wasn’t really much of a hero on Jan 6. The testimony showed he consulted many lawyers to see if he was allowed to overturn the results. His refusal to get into the vehicle as directed by the Secret Service might have been about completing his duty. Or it could have been “I’m not getting in a car controlled by the guy encouraging people to lynch me…”

If he had real courage, he would have invoked the 25th amendment.


----------



## Citysnaps

SuperMatt said:


> If he had real courage, he would have invoked the 25th amendment.




Yes. I agree in principal.

But...normally that would be invoked by the inability of the president to serve. Easy to determine if a medical procedure went haywire and resulted in death or incapacitation. Or an assassination.

But in the case of trump, what cause and procedure would be used to force him to resign so the 25th amendment could put Pence in charge (until Inauguration Day, two weeks later)?  A declaration by Pence and majority of Cabinet members would be required to start the process. And then, I believe, 2/3rds of Senate and House would need to agree he's unfit, and thus could be removed.

In other words, Pence could get the ball rolling, but to make it happen I believe is out of his hands.

I'm just spitballing on this.  I'll defer to others more knowledgeable.


----------



## SuperMatt

citypix said:


> Yes. I agree in principal.
> 
> But...normally that would be invoked by the inability of the president to serve. Easy to determine if a medical procedure went haywire and resulted in death or incapacitation. Or an assassination.
> 
> But in the case of trump, what cause and procedure would be used to force him to resign so the 25th amendment could put Pence in charge (until Inauguration Day, two weeks later)?  A declaration by Pence and majority of Cabinet members would be required to start the process. And then, I believe, 2/3rds of Senate and House would need to agree he's unfit, and thus could be removed.
> 
> In other words, Pence could get the ball rolling, but to make it happen I believe is out of his hands.
> 
> I'm just spitballing on this.  I'll defer to others more knowledgeable.



It is very convoluted. But I think at the minimum it takes the President out of his office for 4 days, even if he insists he is capable. If they stretched it out a bit, they could have taken away all his power for the rest of the term.


----------



## fooferdoggie

citypix said:


> Yes. I agree in principal.
> 
> But...normally that would be invoked by the inability of the president to serve. Easy to determine if a medical procedure went haywire and resulted in death or incapacitation. Or an assassination.
> 
> But in the case of trump, what cause and procedure would be used to force him to resign so the 25th amendment could put Pence in charge (until Inauguration Day, two weeks later)?  A declaration by Pence and majority of Cabinet members would be required to start the process. And then, I believe, 2/3rds of Senate and House would need to agree he's unfit, and thus could be removed.
> 
> In other words, Pence could get the ball rolling, but to make it happen I believe is out of his hands.
> 
> I'm just spitballing on this.  I'll defer to others more knowledgeable.



trump should have had pence be president when he went into the hospital and was knocked out. but of course even then he could not give up power. I guess afraid pence would take over.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1539239374403080192/


----------



## SuperMatt

They are going over all the personal attacks on Republican election officials by the Trump campaign. They are also showing threats on Republican election officials in Pennsylvania and Georgia.

There seems to be a theme here. They are focusing on *Republicans* that opposed Trump or were being attacked by Trump.

And they played some robo-calls asking people to push for an extra slate of electors from their states.


----------



## SuperMatt

They are now interviewing the Republican Speaker of the Arizona House of Representatives, Rusty Bowers, about all the illegal things Trump and Giuliani asked him to do.


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> They are now interviewing the Republican Speaker of the Arizona House of Representatives, Rusty Bowers, about all the illegal things Trump and Giuliani asked him to do.




He’s pretty compelling


----------



## SuperMatt

Giuliani: “We’ve got lots of theories; we just don’t have the evidence.”


----------



## SuperMatt

Wait, the QAnon Shaman broke into the *Arizona* Capitol before Jan 6?


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> Wait, the QAnon Shaman broke into the Arizona Capitol before Jan 6?



Yeah, i think that was already known (I don’t know that it was a break-in, but they refused to leave).


----------



## SuperMatt

So they lied to people to get them to become fake electors for Trump… in multiple states.

Some knew it was illegal but did it anyway if they were guaranteed their legal fees would be covered.

These fake electors are ACTUAL election fraud.


----------



## SuperMatt

The threats from these Trump-lovers… just unbelievable.

It’s a bit hard to feel TOO bad for the ones that supported Trump in 2020, because he constantly threatened others for 4 years. But now that they are on the receiving end of the threats, they get tears in their eyes. Maybe they can get a bit of insight to what the “others” felt from Trump-lovers all that time.

But I’m ok if they want to portray these Republicans as noble, if it means other Republicans turn on Trump and rebuke this “stolen election” nonsense.


----------



## Edd

SuperMatt said:


> The threats from these Trump-lovers… just unbelievable.
> 
> It’s a bit hard to feel TOO bad for the ones that supported Trump in 2020, because he constantly threatened others for 4 years. But now that they are on the receiving end of the threats, they get tears in their eyes. Maybe they can get a bit of insight to what the “others” felt from Trump-lovers all that time.
> 
> But I’m ok if they want to portray these Republicans as noble, if it means other Republicans turn on Trump and rebuke this “stolen election” nonsense.



They’re cockroaches like Trump himself. That’s harsh and true, and my views on people who simply voted for Trump are similar.


----------



## SuperMatt

The testimony of Ruby Freeman and her daughter is heartbreaking. Their lives have been completely ruined by Donald Trump’s election lies. He knew he was lying, and he knew his supporters would threaten and attack them.

A group of MAGA thugs attempted to break into the grandmother’s house to perform a “citizens’ arrest”… 

Every single permanent Fulton county election worker quit because of this.

Trump should spend the rest of his days in prison.


----------



## GermanSuplex

This is not "lock her up" hyperbole, this is very serious:

Donald Trump needs to be arrested, booked and charged with seditious conspiracy, multiple counts worth. I'm watching more and more proof spill out - but its just proof of what we knew. "Alternate slates of electors"? There's no such fucking thing. It would be like if Trump got mad at Pence and hired Don Jr. show up to act as Senate President. Doesn't work that way, not possible.

I do not envy the position of Merrick Garland, but I have a strong suspicion he's going to cement his legacy by having the backbone to haul a former president's fat seditious ass into jail. I don't care what the cult thinks, they'd arrest people and then some if they get the chance to do so. The time to send a message to stop this political crime, start talking to one another and start legislating is NOW.

You don't let someone off the hook for breaking in someone's house and trying to kill someone just because the gun jammed and nobody got hurt. You haul their ass into jail and put them in prison so they don't have the chance to do it again.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> This is not "lock her up" hyperbole, this is very serious:
> 
> Donald Trump needs to be arrested, booked and charged with seditious conspiracy, multiple counts worth. I'm watching more and more proof spill out - but its just proof of what we knew. "Alternate slates of electors"? There's no such fucking thing. It would be like if Trump got mad at Pence and hired Don Jr. show up to act as Senate President. Doesn't work that way, not possible.
> 
> I do not envy the position of Merrick Garland, but I have a strong suspicion he's going to cement his legacy by having the backbone to haul a former president's fat seditious ass into jail. I don't care what the cult thinks, they'd arrest people and then some if they get the chance to do so. The time to send a message to stop this political crime, start talking to one another and start legislating is NOW.
> 
> You don't let someone off the hook for breaking in someone's house and trying to kill someone just because the gun jammed and nobody got hurt. You haul their ass into jail and put them in prison so they don't have the chance to do it again.





Like I said before, if this was an average citizen and their goons they'd be in prison already.  I predict with Trump we'll see nothing except a sooner than later successful government takeover by Trump or somebody like him.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> The testimony of Ruby Freeman and her daughter is heartbreaking. Their lives have been completely ruined by Donald Trump’s election lies. He knew he was lying, and he knew his supporters would threaten and attack them.
> 
> A group of MAGA thugs attempted to break into the grandmother’s house to perform a “citizens’ arrest”…
> 
> Every single permanent Fulton county election worker quit because of this.
> 
> Trump should spend the rest of his days in prison.



This was heartbreaking to watch, Trump is such a disgusting and heatless piece of shit. Facebook has some responsibility here too, allowing that to take place makes them just as complicit IMO, she should sue both of of them into the ground.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Oh, add Senator Ron Johnson to this. He was trying to PERSONALLY deliver fake electors to Pence. Here's Johnson's assistant speaking to Pence's assistant. What's worse ,they're drawing workers into this. I don't know how innocent or guilty the staff are, some I would have to assume knew this was illegal, but its hard when you have a boss and need a job. No, Johnson needs to be arrested for this.

And FUCK Mike Pence for doing the absolute minimum he could do. He should have been sounding the alarm. Luckily, the aid said "Do NOT give those to him". They knew this was bogus bullshit. I can't believe after all of this, people are still on Trump's side. Mountains and mountains of an attempted coup, not one single case of voter fraud that moves even remotely outside the scope of random, single individuals.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> I do not envy the position of Merrick Garland, but I have a strong suspicion he's going to cement his legacy by having the backbone to haul a former president's fat seditious ass into jail. I don't care what the cult thinks, they'd arrest people and then some if they get the chance to do so. The time to send a message to stop this political crime, start talking to one another and start legislating is NOW.




I think he'll be indicted. Beyond that...Hmmm. Fingers crossed on a conviction. Would certainly make my day and send a message to the country (and the world) needs to hear.


----------



## Joe

Nothing is going to happen to Trump. Rich straight white president...yeah, good luck.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> This was heartbreaking to watch, Trump is such a disgusting and heatless piece of shit. Facebook has some responsibility here too, allowing that to take place makes them just as complicit IMO, she should sue both of of them into the ground.




I have faith. The MAGA cult is a very dangerous, loud and large group of people. But they are still a minority. Most people, even Trump supporters, go to work and mind their business. If these clowns start taking over things and affecting other people's lives, they will ditch Trump in a hot second.

It's a question of how ugly does it get, but I have to remember the wanna-be Rambo MAGA lunatics are a small fraction of Americans. Most people can't go to Walmart and waste money on fake military clothing and march the streets with guns, we have jobs and families and responsibilities. People love to watch a good car wreck until it affects them, and this Trump shit is starting to affect people.

I say all of that because the evidence is overwhelming and numerous, many people are ensnared in this, and Merrick Garland and the J6 Committee probably have a list of over a hundred names of people they can easily charge and convict on seditious conspiracy. You put these entitled morons in cuffs and threaten them with prison, maybe hold them in the Federal Pen over the weekend before they can bail out, and you will see them all point the finger at Trump.

I suspect we have just been waiting for the first domino to fall - but once it does, the rest will fall hard and fast. Just haven't got there yet. I don't see Merrick Garland leaving his post without arresting and charging Trump. People are worried about the consequences of charging a sitting president; too late, we've passed that point because people should be just as concerned about the consequences of a president not committing to a peaceful transition of power. Trump has not set a precedent; that's up to the Justice Department. If they charge Trump, the precedent is that "do this, and you go to prison". If they don't, then Biden OR his opponent can do whatever the hell they want.

Charging Trump will be a serious matter; not charging him will be worse. Merrick Garland has the power to be the most consequential AG in history. The MAGA cult will be upset, many more will be upset if Trump walks.


----------



## Edd

Joe said:


> Nothing is going to happen to Trump. Rich straight white president...yeah, good luck.



Fuckin’ wish I disagreed with this.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Edd said:


> Fuckin’ wish I disagreed with this.



not directly but hopefully the fallout will do damage.


----------



## Roller

The really crazy part is that any prosecution of Trump and his mob could well drag on into the next administration, which may have Trump himself or someone equally odious as president.


----------



## SuperMatt

Roller said:


> The really crazy part is that any prosecution of Trump and his mob could well drag on into the next administration, which may have Trump himself or someone equally odious as president.



The commission needs to wrap things up as quickly as possible. Democrats will still control the DoJ until 2024, but Congress could possibly flip in 2022, and this commission will be immediately shut down if that happens.

I wish people would realize that voting for MAGA candidates will NOT cause gas prices to go down, but WILL make life worse in America.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

SuperMatt said:


> The commission needs to wrap things up as quickly as possible. Democrats will still control the DoJ until 2024, but Congress could possibly flip in 2022, and this commission will be immediately shut down if that happens.
> 
> I wish people would realize that voting for MAGA candidates will NOT cause gas prices to go down, but WILL make life worse in America.



That's the really disturbing part - that GOP politicians don't stand up in mass and denounce Trump and his Big Lie, that they would shut down the Jan. 6 investigation because their political future is more important than holding responsible those who led an armed, violent insurrection against the government.

And Republicans complaining about the economy is so hypocritical - Trump left the economy in shambles due to his disastrous handling of the pandemic, his futile trade war, his tax cuts that catered to rich GOP donors and his general incompetence.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Yep. The Republican politicians aren’t going to denounce Trump. They want to be re-elected. If they were to say anything against Trump they know they’ll get voted out. Scum.


----------



## SuperMatt

mac_in_tosh said:


> That's the really disturbing part - that GOP politicians don't stand up in mass and denounce Trump and his Big Lie, that they would shut down the Jan. 6 investigation because their political future is more important than holding responsible those who led an armed, violent insurrection against the government.
> 
> And Republicans complaining about the economy is so hypocritical - Trump left the economy in shambles due to his disastrous handling of the pandemic, his futile trade war, his tax cuts that catered to rich GOP donors and his general incompetence.



The investigation keeps drawing attention to the fact that there are actual victims of his actions. They weren’t harmless lies. It was all part of an unrelenting campaign to keep power, regardless of who got hurt.

To think many people will forget about this and vote Republican because of gas prices…?


----------



## JayMysteri0

SuperMatt said:


> The testimony of Ruby Freeman and her daughter is heartbreaking. Their lives have been completely ruined by Donald Trump’s election lies. He knew he was lying, and he knew his supporters would threaten and attack them.
> 
> A group of MAGA thugs attempted to break into the grandmother’s house to perform a “citizens’ arrest”…
> 
> Every single permanent Fulton county election worker quit because of this.
> 
> Trump should spend the rest of his days in prison.



All you need to know about priorities with our gov't.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1539360411727777794/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Coming up...



> A British filmmaker gave Congress unreleased footage of Trump and his family
> 
> 
> British documentarian Alex Holder confirmed on Tuesday that he had complied with a Jan. 6 committee subpoena for never-before-seen footage of the president in the leadup to the insurrection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org





> British documentary filmmaker Alex Holder confirmed on Tuesday that he had complied with a subpoena from the Jan. 6 committee to turn over never-before-seen footage of former President Donald Trump in the leadup to the insurrection.
> 
> The committee will also conduct a deposition of Holder on Thursday, he said in a statement shared on Twitter.
> 
> Holder had access to Trump, as well as his family members and associates, while directing a documentary series surrounding the final six weeks of the former president's reelection campaign in 2020. He said the footage he turned over includes interviews with Trump and his family leading up to the election, as well as never-before-seen footage of the Capitol riot.
> 
> Holder said his team would never have predicted their work would be subpoenaed by Congress when they started the project in September 2020, but are cooperating fully.
> 
> "As a British filmmaker, I had no agenda coming into this," he said. "We simply wanted to better understand who the Trumps were and what motivated them to hold onto power so desperately."
> 
> He said the series includes "unparalleled access and exclusive interviews" with officials including Trump, his children, son-in-law Jared Kushner and former Vice President Mike Pence both before and after the events of Jan. 6, in a variety of locations: the White House, Trump's Mar-A-Lago resort and on the campaign trail.
> 
> The series, _Unprecedented_, was purchased by an unidentified streaming service last year and is set to be released in three parts this summer, Holder said, adding that he did not previously have the legal authority to release the material or publicly discuss the project.
> 
> Politico first reported that the committee subpoenaed Holder last week, seeking raw footage related to three things: the events of Jan. 6, discussions of the integrity of the 2020 election and interviews with Trump, Pence and several Trump family members from September 2020 until the present.




The part I find hilarious and all too sadly believable...


> Holder's cooperation and the footage itself came as a surprise to Trump associates, Rolling Stone reported.
> 
> The magazine reported that several former officials on Trump's reelection campaign have claimed they did not know that the documentary about his reelection campaign was being filmed in the first place, and heard about it for the first time after seeing the Politico report about the subpoena.
> 
> "What the f*** is this?" a former top Trump 2020 official messaged the publication after seeing the news.


----------



## SuperMatt

When you have enough smoking guns to start your own militia, maybe it’s ok to seek an indictment?


----------



## GermanSuplex

I’m pretty confident Trump is going to prison. The majority of Americans think he should, and just because 40% or so of people think he shouldn't, the percentage of those people that are redneck militia folks are not as numerous as their terroristic behavior would have you believe. If Trump got sent to the slammer, people would be upset, many would rejoice, but the world would keep moving. Maybe it would help people get back on course. And without Trump able to release a statement every ten seconds, chickenshit republicans would be more confident distancing themselves from him.

I don't see how any of this is allowed to stand. Not indicting and convicting people for these schemes means Biden and Harris or anyone else in the future can do the same thing. It's really that simple, because you know for a fact senate republicans would never agree to passing stricter laws that prevents these type of things, because doing so would be a tacit admission of Trump and his allies' criminal behavior.

What Trump and his cohorts did is already illegal. It's just unprecedented, and has never really needed to be enforced at this scale, at least not since the civil war.

Anytime Merrick Garland speaks, he pretty much says "We know what happened and we keep our heads down and do our job". This is a big puzzle, the GA case is tied into it, the Jan 6 committee is handing over evidence left and right... it can't be easy to compile all of this, which is why I'm glad the January 6 hearings are laying things out in great detail, that can be used to enhance anything going on with the Justice Department.

There's lots of rumors that the MAGA cult is getting ready to set John Eastman up as the fall guy. Which is great, because its not like people didn't have fair warning that doing Trump's bidding only causes legal jeopardy for people. But prosecutors shouldn't stop there. Go after the top dog, not the middlemen who did his bidding.


----------



## Runs For Fun

GermanSuplex said:


> I’m pretty confident Trump is going to prison. The majority of American's think he should, and just because 40% or so of people think he shouldn't, the percentage of those people that are redneck militia folks are not as numerous as their terroristic behavior would have you believe. If Trump got sent to the slammer, people would be upset, many would rejoice, but the world would keep moving. Maybe it would help people get back on course. And without Trump able to release a statement every ten seconds, chickenshit republicans would be more confident distancing themselves from him.
> 
> I don't see how any of this is allowed to stand. Not indicting and convicting people for these schemes means Biden and Harris or anyone else in the future can do the same thing. It's really that simple, because you know for a fact senate republicans would never agree to passing stricter laws that prevents these type of things, because doing so would be a tacit admission of Trump and his allies' criminal behavior.
> 
> What Trump and his cohorts did is already illegal. It's just unprecedented, and has never really needed to be enforced at this scale, at least not since the civil war.
> 
> Anytime Merrick Garland speaks, he pretty much says "We know what happened and we keep our heads down and do our job". This is a big puzzle, the GA case is tied into it, the Jan 6 committee is handing over evidence left and right... it can't be easy to compile all of this, which is why I'm glad the January 6 hearings are laying things out in great detail, that can be used to enhance anything going on with the Justice Department.
> 
> There's lots of rumors that the MAGA cult is getting ready to set John Eastman up as the fall guy. Which is great, because its not like people didn't have fair warning that doing Trump's bidding only causes legal jeopardy for people. But prosecutors shouldn't stop there. Go after the top dog, not the middlemen who did his bidding.



I can only hope this is the case. I just hope that if Trump goes to prison the Trumpublican nutjobs don't start another riot.


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> I’m pretty confident Trump is going to prison. The majority of American's think he should, and just because 40% or so of people think he shouldn't, the percentage of those people that are redneck militia folks are not as numerous as their terroristic behavior would have you believe. If Trump got sent to the slammer, people would be upset, many would rejoice, but the world would keep moving. Maybe it would help people get back on course. And without Trump able to release a statement every ten seconds, chickenshit republicans would be more confident distancing themselves from him.
> 
> I don't see how any of this is allowed to stand. Not indicting and convicting people for these schemes means Biden and Harris or anyone else in the future can do the same thing. It's really that simple, because you know for a fact senate republicans would never agree to passing stricter laws that prevents these type of things, because doing so would be a tacit admission of Trump and his allies' criminal behavior.
> 
> What Trump and his cohorts did is already illegal. It's just unprecedented, and has never really needed to be enforced at this scale, at least not since the civil war.
> 
> Anytime Merrick Garland speaks, he pretty much says "We know what happened and we keep our heads down and do our job". This is a big puzzle, the GA case is tied into it, the Jan 6 committee is handing over evidence left and right... it can't be easy to compile all of this, which is why I'm glad the January 6 hearings are laying things out in great detail, that can be used to enhance anything going on with the Justice Department.
> 
> There's lots of rumors that the MAGA cult is getting ready to set John Eastman up as the fall guy. Which is great, because its not like people didn't have fair warning that doing Trump's bidding only causes legal jeopardy for people. But prosecutors shouldn't stop there. Go after the top dog, not the middlemen who did his bidding.



It seems to me that we are reaching critical mass of Republicans who want to purge Trump from the party. A number of Republicans are testifying against him openly. That tells you his influence is fading. If he was still dominant, they wouldn’t say anything.


----------



## Eric

LOL









						A GOP senator got caught pretending to be on his phone to avoid questions about the Jan. 6 insurrection
					

Sen. Ron Johnson held his phone to his ear while leaving the U.S. Capitol, but reporters noticed he was not really on a call.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

Ron Johnson is in legal jeopardy.

He's already trying to set his aide up. Which is a joke. Ron Johnson wants you to believe he knew nothing of the plot, and his top aide said "Yeah, Senator Johnson wants to hand some bogus "slates of elector" to the VP personally. He doesn't know the plot and he doesn't know what he's handing the Vice President, but its urgent and he needs to get them to him."

LOL. Come on... A senate aide wouldn't even release a generic holiday greeting without prior approval from the senator, but Senator Johnson was going to be a mule for his own aide?     

Someone should come up with another movie, this time called "2,001 Mules", about the people across the country - from election workers, state GOP officials, state legislatures, members of congress, etc. - who engaged in this scheme.

He's entitled to due process like everyone else, but those emails between Johnson and Pence's aides are pretty much smoking guns against Johnson. As much of a coward as I think Pence is for not raising concerns about the pressure campaign Trump was orchestrating, he's still been absolved from any criminal wrongdoing from what I can see. So there are definitely people in this whole plot who were not active participants. Those who were, however, like Senator Johnson and others, should be arrested. Not given a congressional subpoena or a charge of contempt when they don't show up... no, they need federal charges. They need federal agents at their doorstep at 5:30 in the morning to take them down the walk of shame from their front door to the back of a black SUV destined for the nearest federal jail cell.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Remember folks, these are the GOOD ones. These are the people who - ultimately anyways - did the right thing. And yet they don't see how this is merely enabling the next coup. Seriously hard to comprehend these people.






_*[W]hile Bowers said the efforts by Giuliani and other Trump backers have been hurtful, he does not levy any criticism on Trump directly and would support him if he were on the ballot. “If he is the nominee, if he was up against Biden, I’d vote for him again,” Bowers said.*_









						Even now, Arizona’s Rusty Bowers would still vote for Trump
					

Arizona's Rusty Bowers knows that Donald Trump hatched an illegal scheme that threatened our democracy. He's prepared to vote for Trump again anyway.




					www.msnbc.com


----------



## SuperMatt

The committee has issued more subpoenas.

One of the fake electors in Georgia: Brad Carver
Trump campaign worker in New Mexico and Arizona: Thomas Lane
Trump campaign worker in Michigan: Sean Flynn


----------



## fooferdoggie

they should just save time and subpoena all elected republicans.


----------



## Runs For Fun

GermanSuplex said:


> Remember folks, these are the GOOD ones. These are the people who - ultimately anyways - did the right thing. And yet they don't see how this is merely enabling the next coup. Seriously hard to comprehend these people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*[W]hile Bowers said the efforts by Giuliani and other Trump backers have been hurtful, he does not levy any criticism on Trump directly and would support him if he were on the ballot. “If he is the nominee, if he was up against Biden, I’d vote for him again,” Bowers said.*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even now, Arizona’s Rusty Bowers would still vote for Trump
> 
> 
> Arizona's Rusty Bowers knows that Donald Trump hatched an illegal scheme that threatened our democracy. He's prepared to vote for Trump again anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msnbc.com



Just saw that and came here to post it. What an idiot.


----------



## GermanSuplex

SuperMatt said:


> The committee has issued more subpoenas.
> 
> One of the fake electors in Georgia: Brad Carver
> Trump campaign worker in New Mexico and Arizona: Thomas Lane
> Trump campaign worker in Michigan: Sean Flynn




Just saw that tomorrow will be the last hearing and then they’ll take a break to assess more evidence. Hopefully more hearings will be planned and held in the coming weeks/months.

Watching Ron Johnson throw his staff under the bus and claim to know nothing about any of this is probably a sign folks in the GOP are nervous.


----------



## Yoused

this thread nees some levity


----------



## fooferdoggie

I remember how trump showed the world how strong her was by throwing tennis balls at pence from a golf cart.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> Just saw that tomorrow will be the last hearing and then they’ll take a break to assess more evidence. Hopefully more hearings will be planned and held in the coming weeks/months.




I doubt it.  Most people simply don't care.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I think for the DOJ to proceed their messaging needs to focus hard on Trump conning “a lot of good people”. This gives his supporters an exit. Not saying they’ll all take it, but it’s a lot better than calling them dumb indirectly.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> I doubt it.  Most people simply don't care.
> 
> View attachment 15233




Not saying he's wrong, but if I was looking for an accurate gauge of public opinion on just about anything Congress would be the last group of people I would go to.  Yeah, let's ask the people who spend all their time with lobbyists and the occasional squeaky wheel nutter.

Are people way more concerned about the economy?  Fuck yeah, but we don't pump the breaks on prosecuting serial killers and Disney pedophiles because the price of lumber doubled.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> I doubt it.  Most people simply don't care.
> 
> View attachment 15233



3rd hand information from unnamed members of Congress… ok then.


----------



## Cmaier

Feds raided Jeffrey Clark’s house yesterday. Nice.


----------



## ronntaylor

SuperMatt said:


> 3rd hand information from unnamed members of Congress… ok then.



Give him some slack. That bucket of bullshit he's been slagging around is getting heavier by the hour.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> I doubt it.  Most people simply don't care.




This isn't about big ratings or even how many individual members are or aren't concerned about January 6. I don't care if the people in the committee rooms are the only people who care. We don't enforce laws and hold people to accountability based on how many people care.

That said, this isn't supposed to be an entertainment event. I'm sure if you took a poll about January 6, most people probably don't care. Again, that's besides the point. If Trump had managed to stay in power, I guarantee you a LOT of people would have cared, probably more than the amount of people who still cling to the farcical lie that Trump was robbed of the election.

I can almost guarantee there will be more hearings, IF the Justice Department doesn't already have enough to act first.


----------



## Citysnaps

So far I'm impressed with Kinzinger. Feels a little weird saying that.


----------



## Huntn

I have not been listening daily, have heard daily news reports and today, started listening during Liz Cheney‘s address and following has been riveting. It is unbelievable that that this is not referred to the US Justice Dept for the prosecution of Donald  J Trump and others for treason against the United States.    

To the Department of Justice: _Just say there was corruption,  I and the Republicans will do the rest. _This is the Supreme Treasonous  MoFo talking.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Cmaier said:


> Feds raided Jeffrey Clark’s house yesterday. Nice.




I was wondering when that sad sack was going to start feeling heat for his role in things. He may be number two on the list of people needing prosecuted, right behind Eastman. Well, third if you place at Trump at number one.

Listening to the testimony today, he's going to jail. He broke DOJ policy on his path to breaking the law. He'll be an easy one to throw under the MAGA bus, he's a nobody and has no standing in the cult. In MAGA world, no "good" deed goes unpunished.

Now we just have to hope no bad deed goes unpunished.


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> I was wondering when that sad sack was going to start feeling heat for his role in things. He may be number two on the list of people needing prosecuted, right behind Eastman. Well, third if you place at Trump at number one.
> 
> Listening to the testimony today, he's going to jail. He broke DOJ policy on his path to breaking the law. He'll be an easy one to throw under the MAGA bus, he's a nobody and has no standing in the cult. In MAGA world, no "good" deed goes unpunished.
> 
> Now we just have to hope no bad deed goes unpunished.



They need to get Eastman and Clark to sign plea deals in exchange for testifying against Trump. We need criminals to be held responsible, whether they are a nobody, or the President…. It shouldn’t matter.


----------



## Alli

Judging by the subpoenas issued by DOJ yesterday, I think the hearings are working. Give the DOJ time.


----------



## Huntn

Alli said:


> Judging by the subpoenas issued by DOJ yesterday, I think the hearings are working. Give the DOJ time.



Fingers crossed. One thing seems certain, most Republicans seem oblivious and right now the country should be erupting with anger and indignation that a coup was attempted and failed only because individuals in DOJ stood up to The Head Shit. If he had more time to place more loyalists in advance in key positions, including stacking the Joint Chiefs of Staff, a coup very well could have happened.


----------



## SuperMatt

Wow, the SecDef ACTUALLY called Italy to see if satellites were magically switching votes in America. WTF?

”You guys may not be following the internet the way I do” - Trump


----------



## GermanSuplex

"You guys may not be following the internet the way I do" - Trump to DOJ officials.

No shit, Sherlock, and THANK GOD for that.

Really puts this GIF into perspective:







Kinzinger: "Did anyone else support Mr. Rosen?" (As leader of the JD)
Donaghue: "No one."

Are there any resident Trump fans? How is any of this defendable?


----------



## Herdfan

ronntaylor said:


> Give him some slack. That bucket of bullshit he's been slagging around is getting heavier by the hour.




Maybe.  But I notice your attacking me vs wondering why people may not care.  You can do both.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> Maybe.  But I notice your attacking me vs wondering why people may not care.  You can do both.




Do you care about any of this? Not being snarky, just curious to know what your thoughts are on all of this "election fraud" stuff, and the plot to overturn the election.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> Do you care about any of this? Not being snarky, just curious to know what your thoughts are on all of this "election fraud" stuff, and the plot to overturn the election.




No I get it.  I have been pretty silent on this.

I think we have to break it down into 2 issues.  Trump's attempt to overturn the election and the idiots in the Capitol.

So the second one first.  They were idiots.  I don't think they intended to hurt anyone or burn the place to the ground.  I don't think there was any chance they were going to overthrow the government of the United States.  Again, they were idiots so no I really don't care.  They will be punished individually.  

As to the first, yeah I was disappointed in Trump's efforts to overturn the election.  But if he were doing so using a legal means (which others on both sides have used in the past) then perhaps we need to change a few things.  But I thought he should have just accepted the results and positioned himself for 2024.  He may have pushed the legal means into a dark gray area, but I don't think there was any chance he was going to succeed.  As to whether it was treason, not sure it rises quite to that level.  I know many here will disagree and that's fine.

As for election fraud, now I am pretty sure no one here has watched 2000 Mules.  You might want to, but for every question it answers, it creates 2 more.  There are some things that don't pass the sniff test (I can't think of a single valid reason why a single cell phone visits 24 different ballot drop boxes and 3 non-profits in one night) but there is also very little explanation of where these ballots came from in the first place.  

So I understand his anger if he knew this, but he should have been the Statesmen, conceded and then been Kingmaker for the next 4 years and he would have walked back in.  Now he is damaged goods and I hope he doesn't run.

Maybe some of you all need to watch the movie as I would like to hear some of you thoughts on a few things.  Like I said, it is by no means a slam dunk, but does pose some questions.  

Did you all know your movements are being tracked by the cell carriers (by IMEI?) and they sell this data to marketers?


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Maybe.  But I notice your attacking me vs wondering why people may not care.  You can do both.



The only ones stating people don't care are right wing outlets that are refusing to air or discuss. Meanwhile, it's all over the news and people are paying attention. All the main news sources ABC/CBS/NBC, etc. are running as their top story, and they have tens of millions of more viewers than Fox News.

Most of those testifying are Republicans, Trump's closest allies and supporters and it's really daming no matter what side one is on. If the only response you have is "people don't care" then it speaks volumes as to why you've largely ignored this thread. Same can be said as to why Republicans in general are turning a blind eye while trying to redirect.

However, while they're currently outraged by lack of a Republican defense, they were afforded every opportunity to have people on this commission but flat out refused.


----------



## GermanSuplex

How can you say they didn’t intend to hurt anyone when they were literally beating people and hung gallows? If someone breaks in my house and beats me, their intentions are pretty clear. They didn’t succeed in helping overthrow the election, and maybe even 3/4 of people were there just to raise hell and got caught up in the moment. I get that. But even if only one in four people had ill intent, or even one in ten… that’s a lot of people. And they didn’t just materialize there, they were lied to, pushed and prodded.

This sentiment of “it was bad, but not a big deal” is kinda flabbergasting to me. Trump can run again. Anyone with Trump’s intent could get into office, then what? Trump went WAY over legal means. His legal means were in court. He lost. He tried to strongarm state elected officials, the DoJ, bought into insane conspiracies and drug innocent people like local poll workers into his mess.

A failed coup is still a coup. Juxtapose the right’s opinions on BLM rioters with the Jan. 6 rioters and I don’t see the same level of outrage, not even close. And to be clear, I hate the rioters and looters, because it afforded the right the scapegoat they needed to criticize the whole movement. I don’t label anyone in a MAGA hat a terrorist or part of a terrorist organization, despite my intense dislike of all things Trump.

Just my opinion, but it seems that since denial isn’t working, indifference is the next best option, and neither seems to be an appropriate response to a sitting president who actively and desperately tried to overturn an election.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> I don't think they intended to hurt anyone or burn the place to the ground. *I don't think there was any chance they were going to overthrow the government of the United States.*




That was certainly their intent by trying to reject the will of the people and keep trump in office illegally by way of fake/alternative electors. 

January 6th was an attempted coup; defined as a violent and illegal seizure of power; in other words overthrowing the government of the United States.

And they and their republican Congressional members who supported (and still support) that move came damn close to pulling it off.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> As for election fraud, now I am pretty sure no one here has watched 2000 Mules.  You might want to, but for every question it answers, it creates 2 more.  There are some things that don't pass the sniff test (I can't think of a single valid reason why a single cell phone visits 24 different ballot drop boxes and 3 non-profits in one night) but there is also very little explanation of where these ballots came from in the first place.




I have not watched the movie. However, the cell phone thing has been debunked already. Do you know how many people have cell phones? A lot. I have driven for work before, and I’m sure cell phone records could place me in the vicinity of two dozen McDonald’s locations on any given day despite me having not visited that day.

Dinesh D’Souza is not an investigative journalist; he’s a salesman.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> So the second one first. They were idiots. I don't think they intended to hurt anyone or burn the place to the ground. I don't think there was any chance they were going to overthrow the government of the United States. Again, they were idiots so no I really don't care. They will be punished individually.



The hearings included documentary footage of groups literally planning the attacks, and then arriving early to set things up. 

But they didn’t mean no harm? Like the Duke boys or something? Give me a goddamn fucking break. Over 800 of them were already charged with crimes. They might be idiots, or maybe not. But they are all caught on tape saying they are there for one reason: to overturn the election. Regardless of their mental capacity, that is the literal definition of an insurrection. They failed, but they knew what they wanted to do. Keep Trump in power... which is insurrection, overruling the vote of the American people.



GermanSuplex said:


> I have not watched the movie. However, the cell phone thing has been debunked already. Do you know how many people have cell phones? A lot. I have driven for work before, and I’m sure cell phone records could place me in the vicinity of two dozen McDonald’s locations on any given day despite me having not visited that day.
> 
> Dinesh D’Souza is not an investigative journalist; he’s a salesman.



Here is a detailed look at the claims made in the film:









						Fact Check-Does ‘2000 Mules’ provide evidence of voter fraud in the 2020 U.S. presidential election?
					

A documentary directed by conservative commentator Dinesh D’Souza claims it can prove widespread fraud was carried out during the 2020 presidential election in the United States. Reuters Fact Check examined the main claims presented in the film and did not find any concrete...




					www.reuters.com
				




I cannot think of a more universally respected news source than Reuters. I recommend you read that.

Just a question: did you pay money to watch a movie but then NOT watch (for free) live, sworn testimony from people who actually worked in the White House with Trump?


----------



## Herdfan

citypix said:


> That was certainly their intent by trying to reject the will of the people and keep trump in office illegally by way of fake/alternative electors.
> 
> January 6th was an attempted coup; defined as a violent and illegal seizure of power; in other words overthrowing the government of the United States.
> 
> And they and their republican Congressional members who supported (and still support) that move came damn close to pulling it off.




Again, two different things here.  The idiots in the Capital were doing none of that.  Just idiots raising hell.  They had no chance to overthrow anything.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I don’t know how many times I’ve said this since Trump came down the escalator seven years ago, but…

You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.

_“My father, he’s very honest.” - Ivanka_

I get it, he’s her father, but that just proves she’s not innocent or independent. Being willing to say anything at any time that’s in your own best interest doesn’t make you honest, it makes you an egotistical blowhard. And when that blowhard espouses lies and grifts cash from taxpayers and his own supporters, that makes him not only NOT honest, it makes him a lying scumbag.









						Trump Opens Up About January 6th in New Documentary Subpoenaed by House Committee
					

There could be a "Watergate moment" in the January 6th hearings ... because there are HOURS of footage not just before the insurrection, but on that very day and after ... and the House Committee has now subpoenaed all of it.




					www.tmz.com


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Here is a detailed look at the claims made in the film:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact Check-Does ‘2000 Mules’ provide evidence of voter fraud in the 2020 U.S. presidential election?
> 
> 
> A documentary directed by conservative commentator Dinesh D’Souza claims it can prove widespread fraud was carried out during the 2020 presidential election in the United States. Reuters Fact Check examined the main claims presented in the film and did not find any concrete...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot think of a more universally respected news source than Reuters. I recommend you read that.



Good article and it questions some of the same things I did.  

The movie is very thin on where the ballots came from in the first place.  I would have liked to see synced up video with geolocation data.  In other words, the cell phone was at multiple drop boxes in one night and here is the same person putting ballots in different ones on video.




SuperMatt said:


> Just a question: did you pay money to watch a movie but then NOT watch (for free) live, sworn testimony from people who actually worked in the White House with Trump?




Actually no.  Wife borrowed it from her Chiropractor.    Sorry, don't have time to watch hours of testimony.  Took 2 nights to watch an under 2-hour movie as it was.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> Again, two different things here.  The idiots in the Capital were doing none of that.  Just idiots raising hell.  They had no chance to overthrow anything.




So trying to force the acceptance of fake electors by violence to illegally keep trump in power, *against the will of the people*, would not be an overthrow?

Curious... have you been watching any of the January 6th Capitol videos presented during the House Committee hearings over the last two weeks?

Any thoughts about the 865 (so far) insurrectionists arrested and indicted?  A mere exercise of legitimate political discourse?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> Again, two different things here.  The idiots in the Capital were doing none of that.  Just idiots raising hell.  They had no chance to overthrow anything.




Why did Rep. Loudermilk lie three times about giving tours to a group on January 5, one of whom broke into the Capitol? Why were they clubbing and beating police, spraying them with mace and bear spray? Why did they erect a gallows? Why did they chant hang Mike Pence? Why were numerous people on film - at the Capitol that day - threatening to harm officials? Who brings zip ties and wears combat gear for a tourist visit at the Capitol?

Being disorganized (despite some people’s best efforts to organize) and failing is not an excuse. Were many people there just acting poorly on their own, with no real thought or planning behind it? Sure. Were some people there just for the hell of it? Sure. But clearly and obviously, some of them were there for more sinister and specific goals. Yes, the DoJ will deal with them, but the lack of success in overturning the election or harming officials does not neutralize the fact they even attempted such things in the first place.

Everything else being equal, had those folks been there to overthrow Trump before January 6 and threatened his life, you can bet your last dollar the White House would have had an appropriate reaction, and there would be no talks of this being a normal tourist visit or “idiots getting out of hand”.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Actually no.  Wife borrowed it from her Chiropractor.    Sorry, don't have time to watch hours of testimony.  Took 2 nights to watch an under 2-hour movie as it was.



Try listening to it or a summary of it when you’re on the road. I like listening to news radio or podcasts when I drive.

I’m not gonna give a penny to Dinesh D’Souza, who is a convicted felon. He was pardoned by Trump. So... how could there possibly be a MORE biased look at a situation involving Trump than that?

So unless his movie is released for free or I meet a chiropractor with a DVD, I won’t watch.


----------



## Herdfan

citypix said:


> That was certainly their intent by trying to reject the will of the people and keep trump in office illegally by way of fake/alternative electors.
> 
> January 6th was an attempted coup; defined as a violent and illegal seizure of power; in other words overthrowing the government of the United States.
> 
> And they and their republican Congressional members who supported (and still support) that move came damn close to pulling it off.




We are going to just have to disagree.  You are assigning way too much intent on the hell raisers in the Capitol.  They were idiots.  Had it been anything else, they would be being charged with treason and spending the rest of their lives in prison.  Instead they are getting a few months for being in an unauthorized area.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> Why did Rep. Loudermilk lie three times about giving tours to a group on January 5, one of whom broke into the Capitol? Why were they clubbing and beating police, spraying them with mace and bear spray? Why did they erect a gallows? Why did they chant hang Mike Pence? Why were numerous people on film - at the Capitol that day - threatening to harm officials? Who brings zip ties and wears combat gear for a tourist visit at the Capitol?
> 
> Being disorganized (despite some people’s best efforts to organize) and failing is not an excuse. Were many people there just acting poorly on their own, with no real thought or planning behind it? Sure. Were some people there just for the hell of it? Sure. But clearly and obviously, some of them were there for more sinister and specific goals. Yes, the DoJ will deal with them, but the lack of success in overturning the election or harming officials does not neutralize the fact they even attempted such things in the first place.
> 
> Everything else being equal, had those folks been there to overthrow Trump before January 6 and threatened his life, you can bet your last dollar the White House would have had an appropriate reaction, and there would be no talks of this being a normal tourist visit or “idiots getting out of hand”.




And you wonder why I have stayed out of this thread. 

At least you questioned why people brought Zip Ties as opposed to the idiot reporter who questioned why people even had access to buy Zip Ties.


----------



## Huntn

SuperMatt said:


> Wow, the SecDef ACTUALLY called Italy to see if satellites were magically switching votes in America. WTF?
> 
> ”You guys may not be following the internet the way I do” - Trump



Shit Head statements like this illustrate either what a moron he is, the class of people he is used to scamming, or both. He was definitely out of his league at the Justice Dept but was still able dig up an abject loser there he tried to put in charge. I think he’s be  laughed out of any corporate space where he was not in charge And the only reason he has any political traction are the magnitude of losers who vote, which should make us all very scared.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> We are going to just have to disagree.  You are assigning way too much intent on the hell raisers in the Capitol.  They were idiots.  Had it been anything else, they would be being charged with treason and spending the rest of their lives in prison.  Instead they are getting a few months for being in an unauthorized area.



You are intentionally putting your head in the sand. This is plainly false, and the information proving such is readily available. The leaders of the coup have been charged with seditious conspiracy.

I honestly cannot believe you are defending the terrorists of that day. They are literally traitors to their country.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> You are intentionally putting your head in the sand. This is plainly false, and the information proving such is readily available. The leaders of the coup have been charged with seditious conspiracy.
> 
> I honestly cannot believe you are defending the terrorists of that day. They are literally traitors to their country.




I personally know the idiot from WV who just got sentenced (Derrick Evans).  He was not trying to overthrow anything.  He was simply there to protest and got caught up in it.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> Again, two different things here.  The idiots in the Capital were doing none of that.  Just idiots raising hell.  They had no chance to overthrow anything.




There are multiple levels you're not considering here.

- There's the rioters, who didn't have any particular plan. They were caught up in the moment, did some property damage, and of those arrested, received relatively light sentences.

- The Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, that did have a plan, but failed to carry it out. This is where we start seeing the seditious conspiracy.

- Members of congress, specifically those among Trump's inner circle, that intended to do far more behind the scenes. They're responsible for an attempted coup, and were stymied only by other Republicans who knew about it, but refused to go along with it.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> And you wonder why I have stayed out of this thread.




Sorry, I don’t follow. Some members of congress are elderly men and women. You don’t think a middle-aged man in combat gear scaling walls is powerful enough to overpower a 70 or 80 year old? And you do realize even police use zip ties as a form of handcuffs?

So because they didn’t bring guns (that we know of) and were unsuccessful, it shows they were just harmless idiots?

Two things can be true at once; they could be idiots with no chance of success, but does that negate their intent?

But as you said, that’s just the intruders. The bigger issue is Trump. Not his administration… him directly, who had his hand in all of this. He was the puppet master, these shady folks were acting as his behest. Wanting to make Sidney Powell a special counsel for non-existent voter fraud. Wanting to make a DoJ environmental lawyer acting Attorney General (and referring to him as such). Trying to have the military seize voting machines. Slandering a random poll worker and upending her life. Are you married or a father? Would you be ok if your daughter handed out “I Voted” stickers and worked the polls, then had Joe Biden call her a professional election scammer and causing ANTIFA people to threaten her life?

Trump did all of this, and much more. He’s so criminally bankrupt that other mind blowing things he’s done - like hauling classified documents to his country club or encouraging his supporters to vote twice - seem like child’s play.

I still have to hear about Hillary’s email server, meanwhile this guy is raping grandma in the kitchen and still has defenders.



Huntn said:


> Shit Head statements like this illustrate either what a moron he is, the class of people he is used to scamming, or both. He was definitely out of his league at the Justice Dept but was still able dig up an abject loser there he tried to put in charge.  And as little as 30 years ago he would have been laughed out of any corporate space where he was not in charge.




And yet, Ari Melber brought up a great point… when his top DOJ officials threatened to resign, he listened to them. That sort of takes off the table he was totally insane and had no capability to reason.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Herdfan said:


> Again, two different things here.  The idiots in the Capital were doing none of that.  Just idiots raising hell.  They had no chance to overthrow anything.



only because they were not smart. some sure wanted to do some serious shit and one died trying. who knows what would have happened if they got ahold of pence or a democrat they sure hurt the police.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Liz Cheney said there will be more hearings in her closing statement. Not that I had much doubt.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Again, two different things here.  The idiots in the Capital were doing none of that.  Just idiots raising hell.  They had no chance to overthrow anything.



Five people died and they were this close to assassinating the VP of the United States, BTW this is on record for those not watching the hearings and was well covered by all the networks. Downplaying it like this is disingenuous to say the least.

I get that Trump is your guy but what I don't get is why Republicans refuse to believe what's clearly right in front of their faces. I mean I loved Obama but had he been behind something like this I can guarantee you there's no way in hell I would ever support or ignore such a thing.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> I personally know the idiot from WV who just got sentenced (Evan Jenkins).  He was not trying to overthrow anything.  He was simply there to protest and got caught up in it.



I searched that name in the database and it didn’t come up.



			https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases
		


Everybody there knew it was “Stop the Steal” at the very least. Which they all knew was to overthrow Biden and keep Trump in power. Knowing that was the point, and then continuing past a barricade to get onto the Capitol grounds? Sorry, “I’m an idiot” isn’t an excuse. All movements need “useful idiots”. Being one of them is NOT an excuse.

Everybody who entered the Capitol that should get the maximum sentence. There were ZERO “good ol’ boys” there that day. They all joined in a terrorist attack and need to be held accountable.

If a gang of 10 criminals attacked your house and broke in, and you and your family were injured, would you just get the leader and let the other 9 go home scot-free? Or would you want the police to punish them all? The leader would deserve a harsher punishment of course, but I don’t think you’d buy the “I just got caught up in it” excuse if it affected you personally.


----------



## Citysnaps

Eric said:


> I mean I loved Obama but had he been behind something like this I can guarantee you there's no way in hell I would ever support or ignore such a thing.




How about the time Obama had the audacity to wear a tan suit, spawning the outcry that followed?   We almost lost the republic.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> Five people died and they were this close to assassinating the VP of the United States, BTW this is on record for those not watching the hearings and was well covered by all the networks. Downplaying it like this is disingenuous to say the least.
> 
> I get that Trump is your guy but what I don't get is why Republicans refuse to believe what's clearly right in front of their faces. I mean I loved Obama but had he been behind something like this I can guarantee you there's no way in hell I would ever support or ignore such a thing.




I really don't want to play "what about" here, but when the GOP controls Congress in a year and we holding hearings about Hunter's laptop (the one that both the WaPo and NYT finally admitted was legit), with sworn testimony and all similar things to what we are seeing here, where is everyone's heads going to be?  

I am done with Trump.  Like I said, I wished he had gone away quietly.  I am glad he was our President, but he f!@#ed up.  So I will not vote for him again.  

I am sorry, but I do not believe that our Government was on the precipice of falling.  I really don't.  Sorry.  There are too many safeguards in place.

With that, I bid you adieu in this thread.  I stayed out for a reason and I should have stuck with that.  But @JayMysteri0 asked me a legit question, so I answered him.  I should have known better.


----------



## Citysnaps

I watched an excellent interview of Dan Goldman on Amanpour and Co a bit earlier regarding his views about the House Committee Hearings and Jan 6th. You might remember he was lead counsel for trump's first impeachment hearing.  Worth a view.









						Evidence against Trump is growing: An impeachment lawyer's perspective on the Jan. 6 hearings - CNN Video
					

Daniel Goldman, who served as lead counsel for Democrats during the first impeachment of Donald Trump, says the January 6 hearings have brought to light how massive and widespread the scheme was to overturn the election




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> I really don't want to play "what about" here



Right, only on every single political thread, even this thread. Not going to bash you for it but this is probably one of the most false claims you've made yet on this site.  Nothing wrong with whateoubeism, just own it.


----------



## Renzatic

citypix said:


> How about the time Obama had the audacity to wear a tan suit, spawning the outcry that followed?   We almost lost the republic.




That was a dark day indeed. One I will never forget.


----------



## Eric

This whole thing about the Italian conspiracy theory is just bizarre, I mean he fired most of his senior justice department officials over it. If nothing else it shows just how crazy and out of touch with reality Trump was, he's like that crazy uncle sending "you've gotta see this video" emails on AOL.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> I really don't want to play "what about" here, but when the GOP controls Congress in a year and we holding hearings about Hunter's laptop (the one that both the WaPo and NYT finally admitted was legit), with sworn testimony and all similar things to what we are seeing here, where is everyone's heads going to be?



You seriously are comparing Hunter Biden’s laptop to what happened on Jan 6?

And you never explained why the guy you claimed you know never showed up in the database of Jan 6 rioters. Hmmm…


----------



## Runs For Fun

Herdfan said:


> I don't think they intended to hurt anyone or burn the place to the ground. I don't think there was any chance they were going to overthrow the government of the United States.



Are you kidding me? Have you not seen the footage of people carrying all sorts of weapons wearing kevlar vests? The Oath Keepers literally had a fucking QRF on standby. They were absolutely out to kill and overthrow the government.


Herdfan said:


> As for election fraud, now I am pretty sure no one here has watched 2000 Mules. You might want to, but for every question it answers, it creates 2 more. There are some things that don't pass the sniff test (I can't think of a single valid reason why a single cell phone visits 24 different ballot drop boxes and 3 non-profits in one night) but there is also very little explanation of where these ballots came from in the first place.



You can't be seriously citing 2000 Mules. That documentary is nothing more than Q-lunacy. It has been thoroughly picked to pieces. For example in the case of cell phone GPS data


----------



## ronntaylor

Eric said:


> The only ones stating people don't care are right wing outlets that are refusing to air or discuss.



Bingo! I'm not wasting my time when his ass was quiet till he spouted that .


----------



## Eric

ronntaylor said:


> Bingo! I'm not wasting my time when his ass was quiet till he spouted that .



I'm genuinely interested in what moderate Republicans think though, I would think anyone reasonable would at least see this for what it is. I was initially not going to watch but after it was aired over the top of my normal news I started paying attention, all really compelling (and scary) stuff.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Hunter’s laptop? Ok, if there’s something incriminating on there, whatever. I have no allegiance to Hunter Biden, he’s not an elected official, I didn’t vote for him. Ok, he used dad’s name to get a job. Big fucking deal, I work with a half-dozen people who did the same. Was he collecting tax dollars like Kushner and Ivanka? Who the fuck ever heard the names Don or Eric before 2015? I sure as hell didn’t.

I don’t see any court rendering any of that laptop bullshit as credible since it’s passed through the hands of people with a clear agenda.

If you’re outraged about Burisma or his affairs, fair enough. I hardly see Hunter Biden. He has no policy say-so. He’s not collecting a taxpayer checks. I don’t give a shit about him any more than I do Tiffany Trump. That’s a pretty poor “whataboutism” in defense of January 6.

Does the right not understand that their concern with Hillary’s emails or Hunter’s laptop exposes their rank hypocrisy on Trump?

Like, even in a worse-case scenario, if everything everyone says about Hunter is true… it’s kind of like, so what? It’s like defending Trump if he spit in the queen’s face, and deflecting to that time HW Bush threw up in that guy’s lap. Clearly backwards priorities…


----------



## JayMysteri0

Herdfan said:


> With that, I bid you adieu in this thread.  I stayed out for a reason and I should have stuck with that.  But @JayMysteri0 asked me a legit question, so I answered him.  I should have known better.




Wait.  What question?  What did I miss?





_I just wanted to post a gif of Wahlberg's greatest "acting" performance._


----------



## JayMysteri0

Prepare to be dumbfounded in 4... 3... 2...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1540125156705714177/


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> No I get it.  I have been pretty silent on this.
> 
> I think we have to break it down into 2 issues.  Trump's attempt to overturn the election and the idiots in the Capitol.
> 
> So the second one first.  They were idiots.  I don't think they intended to hurt anyone or burn the place to the ground.  I don't think there was any chance they were going to overthrow the government of the United States.  Again, they were idiots so no I really don't care.  They will be punished individually.



You need to come to grips with what this event represents. Stop making excuses. There were some idiots who got caught up in treason and then there were the groups who were there specifically to perpetrate treason, not to mention the Trump Treason Machine who because they did not have the backing of Military or the Dept of Justice, they could not shoot or arrest key people, so they tried all avenues of bold face lies, including talking the band of expendable suckers to storm the Capitol in their names, and used pressure tactics to talk key persons into committing treason. Fortunately this failed on all counts. 

Most discouraging we have a nation of idiots drinking Trump, QAnon, and every Right Wing Conspiracy theory Koolaid they can swallow, living their right Wing fantasies, while ignoring these hearing and instead of proclaiming Holy Shit!, have  all manor of bankrupt reasons to excuse the inexcusable.

I listen to the truth explained in excruciating detail, and can’t believe Donald Trump and his band of criminals are not going to jail.

And you? _It wasn’t that bad_. If there are enough people like you, not only is the foundation of the United States in trouble but our Constitution/Democracy/Republic is on life support, when truth is only acknowledged when it supports one’s politics, otherwise ends justifies the means, even when the individuals don’t realize what is being destroyed to achieve an illusion. Once those who believe in winning at all costs win,  regardless of how many lies are needed, we are fucked as a nation.

In the general state of our existence, I’d like to know, what Standards or who has to die before it becomes bad enough?  A classroom full of kids, the rule of law, freedom of religion, our Constitution, our freedoms, our insistence on truth, honesty, and the rule of law?

The GOP as it exists today does not support the idea of a democracy, it only supports hypocritical, one way, self serving standards. Why has the GOP failed to wholesale denounce Trump? I’d love to hear your perspective on this.


> As to the first, yeah I was disappointed in Trump's efforts to overturn the election.  But if he were doing so using a legal means (which others on both sides have used in the past) then perhaps we need to change a few things.  But I thought he should have just accepted the results and positioned himself for 2024.  He may have pushed the legal means into a dark gray area, but I don't think there was any chance he was going to succeed.  As to whether it was treason, not sure it rises quite to that level.  I know many here will disagree and that's fine.



You were disappointed? How about enraged? STOP MAKING EXCUSES for the biggest threat to our democracy elected by people like you, who are either gullible, or do want to win at all costs, or because Trump “supports conservative values”,  regardless of the damage to our institutions.  Please accept your role in where the country is today, pushed to the brink of political implosion.


> As for election fraud, now I am pretty sure no one here has watched 2000 Mules.  You might want to, but for every question it answers, it creates 2 more.  There are some things that don't pass the sniff test (I can't think of a single valid reason why a single cell phone visits 24 different ballot drop boxes and 3 non-profits in one night) but there is also very little explanation of where these ballots came from in the first place.
> 
> So I understand his anger if he knew this, but he should have been the Statesmen, conceded and then been Kingmaker for the next 4 years and he would have walked back in.  Now he is damaged goods and I hope he doesn't run.
> 
> Maybe some of you all need to watch the movie as I would like to hear some of you thoughts on a few things.  Like I said, it is by no means a slam dunk, but does pose some questions.
> 
> Did you all know your movements are being tracked by the cell carriers (by IMEI?) and they sell this data to marketers?



Debunked Conspiracy theory. Google it. Here is one example:








						Fact Check-Does ‘2000 Mules’ provide evidence of voter fraud in the 2020 U.S. presidential election?
					

A documentary directed by conservative commentator Dinesh D’Souza claims it can prove widespread fraud was carried out during the 2020 presidential election in the United States. Reuters Fact Check examined the main claims presented in the film and did not find any concrete...




					www.reuters.com
				





Herdfan said:


> I personally know the idiot from WV who just got sentenced (Derrick Evans).  He was not trying to overthrow anything.  He was simply there to protest and got caught up in it.



Yep, he got caught up in committing treason, based on a lie, one of the pawns sucked into Trump’s vortex designed to attract expendable suckers.


Runs For Fun said:


> Are you kidding me? Have you not seen the footage of people carrying all sorts of weapons wearing kevlar vests? The Oath Keepers literally had a fucking QRF on standby. They were absolutely out to kill and overthrow the government.
> 
> You can't be seriously citing 2000 Mules. That documentary is nothing more than Q-lunacy. It has been thoroughly picked to pieces. For example in the case of cell phone GPS data



There was a plan to break into the Capitol orchestrated by Donald Trump to illegally, violently overturn the outcome of the election. All other avenues had failed him.


----------



## SuperMatt

Huntn said:


> You need to come to grips with what this event represents. Stop making excuses. There were some idiots who got caught up in treason and then there were the groups who were there specifically to cause treason, not to mention the Trump Treason Machine who because they did not have the backing of military or the Dept of Justice, they could not shoot or arrest key people, so they tried all avenues of bold face lies, and pressure to talk key persons into committing treason. Fortunately this failed.
> 
> Most discouraging we have a nation of idiots drinking Trump, QAnon, and every Right Wing Conspiracy theory Koolaid they can swallow, living their right Wing fantasies, while ignoring these hearing and instead of proclaiming Holy Shit!, have  all manor of bankrupt reasons to excuse the inexcusable.
> 
> I listen to the truth explained in excruciating detail, and can’t believe Donald Trump and his band of criminals are not going to jail.
> 
> And you? _It wasn’t that bad_. If there are enough people like you, not only is the foundation of the United States in trouble but our Constitution/Democracy/Republic is on life support, when truth is only acknowledged when it supports one’s politics, otherwise ends justifies the means, even when the individuals don’t realize what is being destroyed to achieve an illusion. Once those who believe in winning at all costs win,  regardless of how many lies are needed, we are fucked as a nation.
> 
> In the general state of,our existence, I’d like to know, what Standards or who has to die before it becomes bad enough?  A classroom full of kids, the rule of law, freedom of religion, our Constitution, our freedoms, our insistence on truth, honesty, and the rule of law?
> 
> The GOP as it exists today does not support the idea of a democracy, it only supports hypocritical, one way, self serving standards. Why has the GOP failed to wholesale denounce Trump? I’d love to hear your perspective on this.
> 
> You were disappointed? How about enraged? STOP MAKING EXCUSES for the biggest threat to our democracy elected by people like you, who are either gullible, or do want to win at all costs, or because Trump “supports conservative values”,  regardless of the damage to our institutions.  Please except your role in where the country is today, pushed to the brink of political implosion.
> 
> Debunked Conspiracy theory. Google it. Here is one example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact Check-Does ‘2000 Mules’ provide evidence of voter fraud in the 2020 U.S. presidential election?
> 
> 
> A documentary directed by conservative commentator Dinesh D’Souza claims it can prove widespread fraud was carried out during the 2020 presidential election in the United States. Reuters Fact Check examined the main claims presented in the film and did not find any concrete...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, he got caught up in committing treason, based on a lie, one of the pawns sucked into Trump’s vortex designed to attract suckers.
> 
> There was a plan to break into the Capitol orchestrated by Donald Trump to illegally, violently overturn the outcome of the election. All other avenues had failed him.



Thank you so much for this. If one has enough time to watch 2000 mules, and read countless stories about Hunter Biden and write regularly on this forum… Then they have time to watch the Jan 6 hearings or at least listen to them while they are driving. 

Ignorance of what happened on Jan 6 is not an excuse, and at this point: one cannot be ignorant of it unless they are trying really hard.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Huntn said:


> You need to come to grips with what this event represents. Stop making excuses. There were some idiots who got caught up in treason and then there were the groups who were there specifically to cause treason, not to mention the Trump Treason Machine who because they did not have the backing of military or the Dept of Justice, they could not shoot or arrest key people, so they tried all avenues of bold face lies, and pressure to talk key persons into committing treason. Fortunately this failed.
> 
> Most discouraging we have a nation of idiots drinking Trump, QAnon, and every Right Wing Conspiracy theory Koolaid they can swallow, living their right Wing fantasies, while ignoring these hearing and instead of proclaiming Holy Shit!, have  all manor of bankrupt reasons to excuse the inexcusable.
> 
> I listen to the truth explained in excruciating detail, and can’t believe Donald Trump and his band of criminals are not going to jail.
> 
> And you? _It wasn’t that bad_. If there are enough people like you, not only is the foundation of the United States in trouble but our Constitution/Democracy/Republic is on life support, when truth is only acknowledged when it supports one’s politics, otherwise ends justifies the means, even when the individuals don’t realize what is being destroyed to achieve an illusion. Once those who believe in winning at all costs win,  regardless of how many lies are needed, we are fucked as a nation.
> 
> In the general state of,our existence, I’d like to know, what Standards or who has to die before it becomes bad enough?  A classroom full of kids, the rule of law, freedom of religion, our Constitution, our freedoms, our insistence on truth, honesty, and the rule of law?
> 
> The GOP as it exists today does not support the idea of a democracy, it only supports hypocritical, one way, self serving standards. Why has the GOP failed to wholesale denounce Trump? I’d love to hear your perspective on this.
> 
> You were disappointed? How about enraged? STOP MAKING EXCUSES for the biggest threat to our democracy elected by people like you, who are either gullible, or do want to win at all costs, or because Trump “supports conservative values”,  regardless of the damage to our institutions.  Please except your role in where the country is today, pushed to the brink of political implosion.
> 
> Debunked Conspiracy theory. Google it. Here is one example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact Check-Does ‘2000 Mules’ provide evidence of voter fraud in the 2020 U.S. presidential election?
> 
> 
> A documentary directed by conservative commentator Dinesh D’Souza claims it can prove widespread fraud was carried out during the 2020 presidential election in the United States. Reuters Fact Check examined the main claims presented in the film and did not find any concrete...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, he got caught up in committing treason, based on a lie, one of the pawns sucked into Trump’s vortex designed to attract suckers.
> 
> There was a plan to break into the Capitol orchestrated by Donald Trump to illegally, violently overturn the outcome of the election. All other avenues had failed him.



Can I give this post an award?


----------



## SuperMatt

Runs For Fun said:


> Can I give this post an award?



I would have given it 1000 upvotes if I could.


----------



## MEJHarrison

GermanSuplex said:


> Hunter’s laptop? Ok, if there’s something incriminating on there, whatever. I have no allegiance to Hunter Biden, he’s not an elected official, I didn’t vote for him. Ok, he used dad’s name to get a job. Big fucking deal, I work with a half-dozen people who did the same. Was he collecting tax dollars like Kushner and Ivanka? Who the fuck ever heard the names Don or Eric before 2015? I sure as hell didn’t.




I was out at my sister's place a couple days back.  She had Newsmax on.  They were discussing Hunter Biden's "evil laptop".  After being in shock that they're _*still*_ going on about the laptop, I pretty much ignored it. But I did catch Don Jr. saying "I guess when you're the president's son, you can get away with whatever you like!"


----------



## Roller

It's remarkable and sad that anyone can look at the mayhem of January 6, 2021 and conclude that the rioters didn't intend to harm anyone or believe they couldn't overturn the election, which would have been tantamount to overthrowing the U.S. government. They didn't show up in military garb and carrying weapons expecting to participate in a non-violent protest. Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi would at least have been kidnapped, and likely killed or severely injured, had they been found. The goal was to disrupt the proceedings enough to cast a pall of uncertainly over the results in key state so Trump could have been declared the winner.

I often wonder how people who latch onto wild conspiracy theories function in society. The bank who handles their mortgage or auto loan could be controlled by space laser-wielding Jews, and the antibiotic prescribed by their physician for a urinary tract infection might have nano-bots embedded in it.


----------



## Runs For Fun

'Smoking gun': Former AG Eric Holder said a note where Trump told DOJ 'just say the election was corrupt' is proof of a crime
					

Eric Holder discussed bombshell evidence of Trump's campaign to pressure the DOJ to overturn the election at the Jan.6 hearings.




					www.businessinsider.com
				




Lock. Him. Up.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Herdfan said:


> I think we have to break it down into 2 issues.  Trump's attempt to overturn the election and the idiots in the Capitol.
> 
> So the second one first.  They were idiots.  I don't think they intended to hurt anyone or burn the place to the ground.  I don't think there was any chance they were going to overthrow the government of the United States.  Again, they were idiots so no I really don't care.  They will be punished individually.
> 
> As to the first, yeah I was disappointed in Trump's efforts to overturn the election.  But if he were doing so using a legal means (which others on both sides have used in the past) then perhaps we need to change a few things.  But I thought he should have just accepted the results and positioned himself for 2024.  He may have pushed the legal means into a dark gray area, but I don't think there was any chance he was going to succeed.  As to whether it was treason, not sure it rises quite to that level.  I know many here will disagree and that's fine.



To your first point, they were armed, had a gallows ready for Mike Pence and were screaming threats. How can you possibly say they didn't intend to hurt anyone? Do the law officers they beat not count? Now suppose several members of Congress were killed as well as the Vice President. That would have been Trump's cue to declare martial law. So that was the chance that the government would be overthrown because once Trump did that he would never relinquish power.

As for Trump's attempt to overturn the election, he was told by all his top legal and campaign advisors (not the lunatic Guiliani) that there was NO BASIS for questioning the results and that none of the theories were valid. Yet Trump ignored this and persisted in the Big Lie and tried to exert undue influence on various state officials as well as the Vice President. His Big Lie led to the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol after pumping up the mob with his deceitful rhetoric. And now, having lost dozens of court cases and every single recount, he still continues to spout the Big Lie. This goes way beyond what others have done in the past.


----------



## SuperMatt

mac_in_tosh said:


> To your first point, they were armed, had a gallows ready for Mike Pence and were screaming threats. How can you possibly say they didn't intend to hurt anyone? Do the law officers they beat not count? Now suppose several members of Congress were killed as well as the Vice President. That would have been Trump's cue to declare martial law. So that was the chance that the government would be overthrown because once Trump did that he would never relinquish power.
> 
> As for Trump's attempt to overturn the election, he was told by all his top legal and campaign advisors (not the lunatic Guiliani) that there was NO BASIS for questioning the results and that none of the theories were valid. Yet Trump ignored this and persisted in the Big Lie and tried to exert undue influence on various state officials as well as the Vice President. His Big Lie led to the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol after pumping up the mob with his deceitful rhetoric. And now, having lost dozens of court cases and every single recount, he still continues to spout the Big Lie. This goes way beyond what others have done in the past.



This willful ignorance and complete disregard for the truth is truly disgusting to me.

The Trump sycophants will set aside 2 hours to watch a movie by a convicted felon, pardoned by Trump, that puts forward lies to make Trump look good. But won’t spend 5 minutes to read a summary of the Jan 6 evidence from the hearings… sworn testimony by people who literally worked at the highest levels in the Trump administration.

These people don’t care about the law. They don’t care about the constitution. They are authoritarians. If Trump told them to “deal with” Mexicans and Muslims, they’d be first in line to load their AR-15s and start gunning them down. There is no doubt about it. If Trump wins in 2024, it could very well happen. The Proud Boys recruitment tripled after the “stand back and stand by” statement of Trump... And they led the Jan 6 coup attempt by showing up armed early, ready to lead an angry mob.

And when somebody calls Trump’s illegal attempts to overthrow election results a “gray area” and wants to excuse the insurrection as very fine people who just got “caught up” in it? They would have been beating up cops and breaking Capitol windows that day if they were there too. No doubt in my mind whatsoever. They are just one mob scene away from being a terrorist.


----------



## MEJHarrison

SuperMatt said:


> This willful ignorance and complete disregard for the truth is truly disgusting to me.
> 
> The Trump sycophants will set aside 2 hours to watch a movie by a convicted felon, pardoned by Trump, that puts forward lies to make Trump look good. But won’t spend 5 minutes to read a summary of the Jan 6 evidence from the hearings… sworn testimony by people who literally worked at the highest levels in the Trump administration.




Keep in mind, the last guy we had in the White House, from the very beginning, told his followers that the new media was biased, tells lies and that they can't be trusted.  Then he told people which news stations _*could*_ be trusted.  When you limit people to just 2-3 news sources (who are just stroking that maniac's ego), it becomes less surprising that they believe crazy stuff.  They're not really getting any other points of view.  They've been told they can't trust those other sources.

They still stupid sheep.  But at least it's somewhat more understandable.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

MEJHarrison said:


> Keep in mind, the last guy we had in the White House, from the very beginning, told his followers that the new media was biased, tells lies and that they can't be trusted.  Then he told people which news stations _*could*_ be trusted.  When you limit people to just 2-3 news sources (who are just stroking that maniac's ego), it becomes less surprising that they believe crazy stuff.  They're not really getting any other points of view.  They've been told they can't trust those other sources.
> 
> They still stupid sheep.  But at least it's somewhat more understandable.



He also told them before the election that the only way he could lose is if it was rigged.

Imagine how naive these people are to believe a life-long grifter who has cheated banks, insurance companies, laborers and even his three wives. Who lied over 30,000 times during his administration. Who was fined for a fraudulent Trump University and Trump Foundation. Who presented no actual evidence of election fraud and lost dozens of court cases and every recount. It boggles the mind how easily swayed some people can be. Even at this late date, after the thug incited a mob to attack Congress, there's a house in my area with a Trump banner on its flag pole.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Hmm. Rep. Mo Brooks asked for a pardon. Rep. Brooks committed the crime of telling republicans to "look forward" and move on from the 2020 election. That simple statement caused Trump to ditch him like a hot rock. He was running for senate and lost his primary to a Trump-backed candidate. So he's not coming back to congress next year.

Rep. Brooks asked Trump for a pardon in the wake of Trump's scheme to overthrow the election. Now, Rep. Brooks has agreed to testify before the January 6 committee, but only in public.

So, will he come out against Trump? Or will he use the moment to say he just wanted a pardon to avoid being persecuted by the "radical left" and continue to kiss Trump's ass? Or will he even show up? Should be very interesting. At some point, these people will turn on Trump. He can try to discredit them all, but he'll look a (bigger) fool for doing so, and guiltier by the day.


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> Hmm. Rep. Mo Brooks asked for a pardon. Rep. Brooks committed the crime of telling republicans to "look forward" and move on from the 2020 election. That simple statement caused Trump to ditch him like a hot rock. He was running for senate and lost his primary to a Trump-backed candidate. So he's not coming back to congress next year.
> 
> Rep. Brooks asked Trump for a pardon in the wake of Trump's scheme to overthrow the election. Now, Rep. Brooks has agreed to testify before the January 6 committee, but only in public.
> 
> So, will he come out against Trump? Or will he use the moment to say he just wanted a pardon to avoid being persecuted by the "radical left" and continue to kiss Trump's ass? Or will he even show up? Should be very interesting. At some point, these people will turn on Trump. He can try to discredit them all, but he'll look a (bigger) fool for doing so, and guiltier by the day.



Trump has no loyalty. He was backing Mo Brooks until he saw that he was falling behind, so he switched his “endorsement” to Katie Britt. He just wants to be associated with the winner.


----------



## GermanSuplex

While I could care less about Brooks and am glad he’s leaving elected office, at least momentarily, he does have the chance to get revenge on Trump if he testifies. These Republican Trump sycophants are so weak and impotent towards him, it’s hard to see it happening through. But between these reps, Eastman and Rosen, they do have the power to do what Trump has done to everyone else, and that’s throw them under the bus.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> While I could care less about Brooks and am glad he’s leaving elected office, at least momentarily, he does have the chance to get revenge on Trump if he testifies. These Republican Trump sycophants are so weak and impotent towards him, it’s hard to see it happening through. But between these reps, Eastman and Rosen, they do have the power to do what Trump has done to everyone else, and that’s throw them under the bus.




I'm also waiting to see what Pence does. 

Assuming he's going to run for prez in 2024, he has some tough decisions ahead. Testify and throw trump under the bus to further burnish his cred that other's kindly setup for him a couple committee hearings ago with their testimony.  Or wuss out to not offend his republican base, who still love trump.

I suppose the smart move would be to wait and see if the DOJ indicts trump in the next couple of months.


----------



## Edd

Pence running sounds insane; what group of voters likes him? What poll could he be looking at that would encourage him to go for it?

To run, he’d have to slit Trump’s throat politically. Denounce him and testify against him as needed. No matter what, the Trump faithful will never support him. I see no political future for him.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Pence will have to settle for giving speeches at moderate Republican events. Maybe he can be senator for Indiana or something, but he’s got no shot at the presidency.


----------



## Citysnaps

I agree Pence would have a tough time running for prez.  I'm just hoping he'll muster up a wee bit of backbone and testify at a future Jan6th hearing, ditto for any DOJ subpoenas, and spill the beans on trump.

I do believe there's a slice of the GOP who have developed a conscience over the last few years witnessing trump's criminality, who could get behind Pence running for office.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Mike Pence is a horrible human being. For four years he stood beaming with admiration by the side of that even more horrible Trump. The man who touts traditional values, including the sanctity of marriage, had no problem enthusiastically supporting someone who has cheated on all three of his wives and who lies constantly.

Check this out; Twitter ERUPTS after Pence attacks Biden as ‘most dishonest’

Kudlow asks Pence if he's ever seen a president who commits so many falsehoods, referring to Biden of course. Pence's response: "Never in my lifetime."

Pence is an unadulterated piece of hypocritical garbage.


----------



## fooferdoggie

mac_in_tosh said:


> Mike Pence is a horrible human being. For four years he stood beaming with admiration by the side of that even more horrible Trump. The man who touts traditional values, including the sanctity of marriage, had no problem enthusiastically supporting someone who has cheated on all three of his wives and who lies constantly.
> 
> Check this out; Twitter ERUPTS after Pence attacks Biden as ‘most dishonest’
> 
> Kudlow asks Pence if he's ever seen a president who commits so many falsehoods, referring to Biden of course. Pence's response: "Never in my lifetime."
> 
> Pence is an unadulterated piece of hypocritical garbage.



he is only worthwhile when his fly is controlling him.


----------



## Citysnaps

Feeling more optimistic (at both Federal and Georgia state levels) after reading this story:



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/06/22/criminal-intent-trump-raffensperger-rusty-bowers/
		


The three authors are highly qualified. I especially like Barbara McQuade, a former US Attorney and frequent contributor to Preet Bharara's interviews.


----------



## SuperMatt

Because of recently obtained evidence, the Jan 6 committee is holding a hearing TOMORROW. Considering how carefully these hearings have been organized so far, I’d have to say it must be something big for there to be one on such short notice....









						Jan. 6 Committee schedules last-minute hearing for Tuesday
					

The Jan. 6 Committee investigating the attack on the Capitol will hold its sixth hearing tomorrow after previously announcing there would be no more hearings until July.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Citysnaps

SuperMatt said:


> Because of recently obtained evidence, the Jan 6 committee is holding a hearing TOMORROW. Considering how carefully these hearings have been organized so far, I’d have to say it must be something big for there to be one on such short notice....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jan. 6 Committee schedules last-minute hearing for Tuesday
> 
> 
> The Jan. 6 Committee investigating the attack on the Capitol will hold its sixth hearing tomorrow after previously announcing there would be no more hearings until July.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org




_"Considering how carefully these hearings have been organized so far, I’d have to say it must be something big for there to be one on such short notice...."_

I agree. For me, two possibilities:

1) Pence testifies and throws trump under the bus about how he tried to pressure Pence to commit criminal acts. That would probably seal the deal for the DOJ to quickly indict. And bolster Pence's poll numbers should he run in 2024.

2) A witness supplies video of trump having a good time watching the insurrection on TV, cheering the insurrectionists on.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Pence will have to settle for giving speeches at moderate Republican events. Maybe he can be senator for Indiana or something, but he’s got no shot at the presidency.

I mean, he could denounce Trump and try to run as a moderate, but he’s already latching onto the Roe v Wade ruling to boost his profile. That’s not going to enamor him to any democrats, and probably only a minority of republicans, and who knows what the hell they think of Pence.


SuperMatt said:


> Because of recently obtained evidence, the Jan 6 committee is holding a hearing TOMORROW. Considering how carefully these hearings have been organized so far, I’d have to say it must be something big for there to be one on such short notice....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jan. 6 Committee schedules last-minute hearing for Tuesday
> 
> 
> The Jan. 6 Committee investigating the attack on the Capitol will hold its sixth hearing tomorrow after previously announcing there would be no more hearings until July.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org




WaPo reporting that even top committee aids were unaware this was happening… it’s been shrouded in secrecy. This plus revelations the moron was allowing cameras for a documentary to be taped also prompted the filmmaker to object that what Ivanka testified to was not how he saw her behaving behind the scenes.

Going to be an interesting few months before the midterms, that’s for sure.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> Pence will have to settle for giving speeches at moderate Republican events. Maybe he can be senator for Indiana or something, but he’s got no shot at the presidency.
> 
> I mean, he could denounce Trump and try to run as a moderate




Right now Pence is polling in 8th place at <10%.  He has no shot.

He could throw trump under the bus and possibly improve that for those Rs  (and possibly a few conservative leaning Ds) who have had enough of the trump fiasco.   Close enough to win? Nope.  tump's running in 2nd place (68%), just behind DeSantis (71%). I suspect that gap will widen considerably if trump is indicted.


----------



## Cmaier

Maybe they have a hearing on the republican congressmen. Some stuff recently came to light re: the "tours."  Who knows. Whatever it is, if it's not "big," it will be counter-productive.  They can't do this sort of improv and keep secret who the witness is without raising expectations. And if you raise expectations in this sort of situation, you better meet them.


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> Pence will have to settle for giving speeches at moderate Republican events. Maybe he can be senator for Indiana or something, but he’s got no shot at the presidency.
> 
> I mean, he could denounce Trump and try to run as a moderate, but he’s already latching onto the Roe v Wade ruling to boost his profile. That’s not going to enamor him to any democrats, and probably only a minority of republicans, and who knows what the hell they think of Pence.
> 
> 
> WaPo reporting that even top committee aids were unaware this was happening… it’s been shrouded in secrecy. This plus revelations the moron was allowing cameras for a documentary to be taped also prompted the filmmaker to object that what Ivanka testified to was not how he saw her behaving behind the scenes.
> 
> Going to be an interesting few months before the midterms, that’s for sure.



Can you imagine Ivanka in prison for perjury? 

Maybe they will let her use Hunter’s laptop to read Hillary’s emails on the weekends if she exhibits good behavior.


----------



## Roller

Cmaier said:


> Maybe they have a hearing on the republican congressmen. Some stuff recently came to light re: the "tours."  Who knows. Whatever it is, if it's not "big," it will be counter-productive.  They can't do this sort of improv and keep secret who the witness is without raising expectations. And if you raise expectations in this sort of situation, you better meet them.



Agree. The announcement alone has people thinking there will be a major revelation of something not previously known — a smoking gun — or at least a credible, high-level witness or two. It's going to be nearly impossible to keep their identity secret if they testify in person, but they could do it remotely. Not as impactful as live testimony, but more effective than recorded depositions or statements.

Not that the chances of this are great, but wouldn't it be marvelous if Melania herself spoke about what would probably soon be her ex-hubby whispered in his ear before and after the election?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Meh, It will probably be Ron DeSantis praising the comity for doing a great job because nobody is loving this right now more than him.


----------



## Cmaier

Roller said:


> Agree. The announcement alone has people thinking there will be a major revelation of something not previously known — a smoking gun — or at least a credible, high-level witness or two. It's going to be nearly impossible to keep their identity secret if they testify in person, but they could do it remotely. Not as impactful as live testimony, but more effective than recorded depositions or statements.
> 
> Not that the chances of this are great, but wouldn't it be marvelous if Melania herself spoke about what would probably soon be her ex-hubby whispered in his ear before and after the election?




Nah, i think she’s on his side now.


----------



## GermanSuplex

John Eastman's phone was seized last week. Seems Merrick Garland is getting the ball rolling. We don't need congressional subpoenas if the DoJ comes knocking.









						Eastman says phone seized by federal agents as Jan. 6-related law enforcement activity escalates
					

The onetime Donald Trump adviser is a central figure in the Capitol riot committee's case that the former president attempted to block the peaceful transfer of power.




					www.politico.com
				




That's the top two people involved in this scheme - the third is Trump - who have been raided by the FBI this week. Between that and the hearings tomorrow, I'd be worried if I was Trump.

As I've said before, the only thing worse than the fallout from indicting, convicting and sending a former president to prison would be to do nothing and set the precedent that all of this bullshit was ok. It was not. We're way past the point of wondering whether or Trump 'really thought he won'. Vigilante justice is against the law. If someone murders your family, you're not free to go hunt down the killer. And that would arguably be far more justified than a conman grifter trying to overturn an election because his ego is so massive he thinks he's impervious to losing. Not to mention, he said the exact same thing twice before already - about the Iowa caucus and 2020 election.

I'm putting money on Trump ending up in prison.

Lots of rumors floating around that Trump is now mad at McCarthy for not having any republicans on the seat. They knocked down an independent commission, but remember - Pelosi did not object to all of McCarthy's picks. He had the opportunity to seat republicans - he passed. He banked that they could discredit the hearings enough if was more partisan. That seems to have been a bad idea, as the only two republicans on the committee are not MAGA cultists.

I'm looking forward to these hearings; they are working. Public tide is roughly 3 out of 5 Americans believe Trump should be held accountable.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> I'm putting money on Trump ending up in prison.




Same here!  The evidence so far is compelling.  And my gut tells me it will soon be overwhelming.  Hope trump's passport is revoked and he's being closely monitored.  Seize his jet, too.


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541473936113684480/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Ron Johnson is probably going to prison. He’s making stuff up about his role in the fake elector scheme. Hiding behind a fake phone call, throwing his staff under the bus, etc. Now he’s bringing in some Republican state rep from Pennsylvania and some Judge or something… The rep denies any involvement.

Johnson is scared. He’s not doing the Trump thing and doubling down on stupid - he’s running far away from this and throwing anyone under the bus he can. 

It’s great to watch such a congress critter feel the heat.

I hope some of these republicans will really be wishing McConnell had sat Garland on the Supreme Court when he had the chance, but his role as AG is much more important at this moment in to time. Even if republicans win control the house and senate, I don’t think they’ll have enough power to deter the justice department in Biden’s first term, though I do wonder what sham hearings they’ll hold to take some of the heat off of them for January 6.

As the hearings go on, I’m becoming more confident justice will prevail, especially when I remind myself that the MAGA cult and Fox News base is a large minority. I mean, it’s a lot of people, but still a minority. Trump’s big lie also has sort of shrouded the fact that not only did Biden win, it wasn’t really even close in the popular vote. Neither was Hillary’s win. More people reject Trumpism, they’re just not as loud as the sedition crowd. Fox has the most viewers, but that’s because it’s an entertainment channel focusing on garbage, whereas people who want real news have more options.

So for those of us fearing the backlash to what happens if Trump’s ass is thrown in jail, it’s important to remember; we’re the majority, not the cult.


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541611430692143104/


----------



## Cmaier

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541611430692143104/




I’ve seen that in other places. But then why the surprise? They already know everything she had to say.


----------



## ronntaylor

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541611430692143104/



???

Unless it's a Butterfield moment, I don't understand the secrecy and last minute hearing.


----------



## Cmaier

ronntaylor said:


> ???
> 
> Unless it's a Butterfield moment, I don't understand the secrecy and last minute hearing.




If it’s her, then the only way it makes sense if there are some new documents that back up something she had to say.


----------



## Alli

Maybe the surprise witness will be Mo Brooks. Now that he has nothing left to lose, he’s ready to throw everyone under the bus and burn down whatever’s left.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Confirmed it's Hutchinson.


----------



## SuperMatt

The testimony is damning.

Trump was informed that the crowd was armed. He still insisted that they should go to the Capitol. He was told by his lawyers to remove statements from his speech about fighting or going to the Capitol or mentioning Mike Pence, and refused.

And the insanity of him throwing dishes around the White House? How is anybody still defending this insane wannabe dictator?

He should be dragged out of Mar-a-Lago in cuffs today.


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> The testimony is damning.
> 
> Trump was informed that the crowd was armed. He still insisted that they should go to the Capitol. He was told by his lawyers to remove statements from his speech about fighting or going to the Capitol or mentioning Mike Pence, and refused.
> 
> And the insanity of him throwing dishes around the White House? How is anybody still defending this insane wannabe dictator?
> 
> He should be dragged out of Mar-a-Lago in cuffs today.




Physically attacking his secret service guy is what we call an “overt act.”


----------



## Citysnaps

SuperMatt said:


> And the insanity of him throwing dishes around the White House?




Somebody give that wee toddler a bottle and soft blankey - stat!


----------



## GermanSuplex

Michael Flynn for Prison.

I'm not even joking... I honestly think we're going to see a couple senators and house members go to prison. I could be way off, it could be wishful thinking. It's hard to send rich white people to jail. But the list of insane shit I'm seeing in these hearings, how on earth can you let them walk? Even Jefferson Davis served prison time.

Time to let these rebel racist assholes get a taste of that.


----------



## SuperMatt

Mark Meadows needs to be locked up too.


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> Michael Flynn for Prison.
> 
> I'm not even joking... I honestly think we're going to see a couple senators and house members go to prison. I could be way off, it could be wishful thinking. It's hard to send rich white people to jail. But the list of insane shit I'm seeing in these hearings, how on earth can you let them walk? Even Jefferson Davis served prison time.
> 
> Time to let these rebel racist assholes get a taste of that.



He should be there now but Trump pardoned him! Can they invalidate Trump’s pardons?

God I hope multiple politicians do time for this. If anybody other than Cheney and Kinzinger had spines in their bodies, Trump would have been impeached, this would have been an independent commission, and there would be trials already ongoing.

Anybody that plays this down is aiding traitors to America. The evidence is there; even if they put their heads in the sand, that‘s no excuse.


----------



## GermanSuplex

SuperMatt said:


> Mark Meadows needs to be locked up too.




Here's my list:

-Trump
-Meadows
-Rudy
-Flynn
-Stone
-Jeff Clark
-John Eastman

I honestly think the developments with Ron Johnson show he's scared... this dude is a carnival barker who's running away from this as hard and fast as he can, throwing people under the bus and dragging other people into it. One of those people - a republican from PA - flat-out denied Johnson's claims. So even though evidence against Johnson is minor right now, his reaction says it all. Plus, have we seen the list of people asking for pardons? I'd throw anyone who asked for a pardon in jail, that's hard evidence right there. How many liberal lawmakers went to Trump for a pardon after the 2020 election? None? Probably because they didn't involve themselves in a scheme to overthrow the election.

Would not be surprised to see Boebert, Gaetz, Gym Jordan and others have incriminating evidence against them.


----------



## SuperMatt

Trump wanted to pardon the rioters, and Mark Meadows agreed! Meadows also wanted a pardon for himself. Lock them both up; throw away the key!


----------



## SuperMatt

Reporters are asking GOP members of Congress about this testimony. The 2 responses? Either no response or “I didn't watch it.” What a bunch of wimps. Shame.


----------



## Citysnaps

Heh...I just remembered that circus clown Jim Jordan (who asked for a presidential pardon, and recently refused to testify before the Jan6th Committee), was nominated by McCarthy to be a member of the committee last year.

Can you imagine the resulting shitshow had Pelosi not rejected him?


----------



## SuperMatt

citypix said:


> Heh...I just remembered that circus clown Jim Jordan (who asked for a presidential pardon, and recently refused to testify before the Jan6th Committee), was nominated by McCarthy to be a member of the committee last year.
> 
> Can you imagine the resulting shitshow had Pelosi not rejected him?



That’s the EXACT reason that McCarthy picked him. He KNEW Jordan was involved, and used his rejection by Pelosi as a pretext to call the hearings “partisan."

But he was crying like a baby on Jan 6 asking Trump to make it stop. He’s a spineless weasel.


----------



## Eric

What a brave woman to do this, nothing but respect for her as she'll likely have to look over her shoulder for a long time to come.

And this, I mean WTF, just when you think it can't get any crazier

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541857091199111168/


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> What a brave woman to do this, nothing but respect for her as she'll likely have to look over her shoulder for a long time to come.
> 
> And this, I mean WTF, just when you think it can't get any crazier
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541857091199111168/




Yeah, Cassidy Hutchinson has more spine than Trump's whole cabinet ever mustered up.

Trump is a guy who didn't want armed protestors deterred from the January 6th event "because they weren't after him."     Then grabbing at the steering wheel of the presidential limo and assaulting a secret service agent just because they told him no he couldn't join the march to the Capitol.   Wow.   He ended up as a demo of what happens when a decompensating narcissist doesn't get his way.   HIssy fits like a 3yo.    He should either be in the slam or in a psychiatric lockup.​
What did that cabinet think the 25th A was made for,  anyway?   How was he still fit to order a nuke strike, or even breakfast?

Hutchinson at age 25 is way braver than I'd have expected of someone her age and in the position she's in...  testifying to what she witnessed when some of the very powerful people she was with have refused to honor Congressional subpoenas or taken the Fifth Amendment, and all of them meanwhile serving at the pleasure of a thuggish guy who wanted to remain president at any cost.


----------



## GermanSuplex

citypix said:


> Heh...I just remembered that circus clown Jim Jordan (who asked for a presidential pardon, and recently refused to testify before the Jan6th Committee), was nominated by McCarthy to be a member of the committee last year.
> 
> Can you imagine the resulting shitshow had Pelosi not rejected him?




This is the great thing about Trump; damned if you do, damned if you don't. When will these suckers realize kissing Trump's ass is only degrading yourself on the way to a bad ending? May as well call him out now and deal with the backlash, because I'd rather have a mean tweet directed at me than the full arm of the justice department.

McCarthy was given five choices for the panel. Ttwo of them - Banks and Jordan - are implicated, so Pelosi rejected JUST those two. So McCarthy didn't replace them, he pulled all of them off. Now Trump is whining he has no representation on the panel, and while not blaming McCarthy directly (yet), he did say it was a bad decision.

But if McCarthy had placed republicans on the panel, Trump would have whined back then. What we're witnessing is a party that has no backbone, none of the members (beyond Kinzinger and Cheney, and a couple senators like Romney and Murkowski) have any independence. They constantly do whatever is the most politically expedient in the moment, which usually involves doing whatever it is they think Trump and his cult thinks is best.

They got Trump elected, have enough votes in congress to stonewall the current admin and will probably pick up more, and have overturned Roe v. Wade. But in the longrun, this party is hurting. I'm seeing it in Illinois, where far-right loon Darren Bailey went from being a backbench nutjob to the probable GOP nominee for governor and default state party leader. Unlike smaller congressional districts and such where sometimes crazy can eek out a win, Bailey has no shot in a statewide general. Ever since Obama, republicans have had to run far to the right to win the nomination - which means they're either legitimately nuts, or pretending to be for the vote (see JD Vance). Either way, its not good for the party and is not sustainable.

The solution is very simple - congressional republicans and other conservatives of high name recognition need to join forces, throw all these criminal traitors under the bus, and move on. There are many conservative fiscal policies I agree with. I would have gladly given Mitt Romney a chance in 2012 - had he not alienated a good chunk of democrats during the primaries. That's the issue - there is no room for moderate voices in the current GOP. You're either a nut or a RINO - and that's their standard, not the dems. It's a self-imposed litmus test that is an automatic turnoff to most democrats and a good chunk of independents.


----------



## Yoused

Happened to notice this on that noisy flickerbox across the room,

Liz: "_Do you believe in te peaceful transfer of power in the United States_?"

Flynn: "_I take the fifth_"

Granted, it was kind of reflex, he took a lot of fifths (and somehow managed to not slur his worrds too much), but seriously, how unaware can one person be? It sounded like a confession.


----------



## SuperMatt

Yoused said:


> Happened to notice this on that noisy flickerbox across the room,
> 
> Liz: "_Do you believe in te peaceful transfer of power in the United States_?"
> 
> Flynn: "_I take the fifth_"
> 
> Granted, it was kind of reflex, he took a lot of fifths (and somehow managed to not slur his worrds too much), but seriously, how unaware can one person be? It sounded like a confession.



And he needed to take a 90-second break before answering to confer with his lawyer.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Haven't read any of the nonsense yet, but it looks like Trump is trying to discredit today's witness on his dying platform, "Truth" Social.

Fox News' Bret Bair:
Bret Baier on Trump disputing Hutchinson's Jan. 6 testimony: She's under oath, he's on Truth Social​








						Trump lunged at Secret Service agent who said he couldn't go to Capitol on January 6: aide
					

The January 6 Select Committee held a hearing to reveal "recently obtained evidence" Tuesday. Cassidy Hutchinson, a former aide to Trump Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, said that Trump insisted on going to the Capitol despite repeatedly being told he could not.




					www.foxnews.com
				




https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541844207974899714/

*Dotard:*_ "Her Fake story that I tried to grab the steering wheel of the White House Limousine in order to steer it to the Capitol Building is 'sick' and fraudulent, very much like the Unselect Committee itself - Wouldn’t even have been possible to do such a ridiculous thing," Trump posted on his social media network Truth Social. "Her story of me throwing food is also false…and why would SHE have to clean it up, I hardly knew who she was?"_

So he only makes people he knows well clean up after his petulant moron tantrums????? 

"Atta boy, Mark. Now trim my toenails."


----------



## lizkat

Yoused said:


> Happened to notice this on that noisy flickerbox across the room,
> 
> Liz: "_Do you believe in te peaceful transfer of power in the United States_?"
> 
> Flynn: "_I take the fifth_"
> 
> Granted, it was kind of reflex, he took a lot of fifths (and somehow managed to not slur his worrds too much), but seriously, how unaware can one person be? It sounded like a confession.




Think about it.   A guy who was a three-star general in the US military declining to say if he believes in peaceful transfer of power from one commander-in-chief to the next?    But then what to expect from a general loyal to a president who broke tradition by refusing even to attend the inauguration of his successor.

Still, Flynn's taking the Fifth on peaceful transfer was as shocking to me as the fact that (regardless of an insurrection!) Donald Trump ever even imagined he could go uninvited to the Capitol to the proceedings he was trying to prevent, the ceremonies establishing the grounds for that peaceful transfer from his presidency to that of Joe Biden.

The President is chief of the executive branch.  He has absolutely no business in the chambers of the people, except by invitation, and that's traditionally only been to make the annual State of the Union address, or otherwise to make a brief formal appearance at events like the lying in state of some deceased dignitary at the Capitol.

Everything about the ceremonies of transfer of power on January 20th 2021 that Trump could snub, he did snub.   All but the ritual of leaving a letter for the incoming president, which he did do and which Biden later termed as "generous" while declining to reveal the contents.   I sometimes imagine Biden himself may have been generous in describing that letter.


----------



## lizkat

This is great.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541859461496815616/


----------



## fooferdoggie

So trump is a spoiled brat that throws his food?


----------



## Yoused

fooferdoggie said:


> So trump is a spoiled brat that throws his food?



Food? _Food?_ Have you seen that diaper, and how the size of it varies randomly?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

lizkat said:


> Everything about the ceremonies of transfer of power on January 20th 2021 that Trump could snub, he did snub.   All but the ritual of leaving a letter for the incoming president, which he did do and which Biden later termed as "generous" while declining to reveal the contents.   I sometimes imagine Biden himself may have been generous in describing that letter.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The Beat just showed video of Eastman being patted down by federal agents last week. Was great to watch.

This was supposed to be a slow news week for January 6 committee-related stuff.

Liz Cheney also hinted that there’s currently obstruction and witness tampering going on….

Today’s star witness mentioned the crimes of obstruction and defrauding the electoral count… Defraud and obstruct, sounds like Trump’s playbook alright.

This White House aide also worked for Steve Scalese for a time. I wonder if any republicans currently in office will stand up for her. And if not, what do other Republican aides think of all these staff members testifying and not being backed up by their bosses?

Journalists, reporters, news networks, etc need to start hammering it over and over to any Republican who tries to gloss over January 6 - “Testify or STFU”. Not interested in what Jim Jordan, Kevin McCarthy or anyone else has to say off the record.


----------



## SuperMatt

lizkat said:


> This is great.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541859461496815616/



Gotta love how they refuse to address anything about what was said… only “will this affect what people believe?” I guess reality and truth are passé in the GOP.


----------



## SuperMatt

fooferdoggie said:


> So trump is a spoiled brat that throws his food?



He’s also a backseat driver.


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> He’s also a backseat driver.




I predict the secret service says that didn’t happen.


----------



## SuperMatt

Cmaier said:


> I predict the secret service says that didn’t happen.



They won’t say anything… they gotta keep their *secrets*.


----------



## Runs For Fun

SuperMatt said:


> Reporters are asking GOP members of Congress about this testimony. The 2 responses? Either no response or “I didn't watch it.” What a bunch of wimps. Shame.



It’s absolutely crazy that everyone on the right just wants to bury their head in the sand and pretend this didn’t happen or wasn’t a big deal. Fucking idiots.


----------



## Cmaier

In view of the MAGA troll army’s response to today’s events as reflected in their twitter posts, I note, with amusement, that the same people who gave full credit to claims made by the pillow guy about Italian space satellites and bamboo-encrusted dummy ballots have suddenly familiarized themselves with the Federal Rules of Evidence.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Can totally see it..

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541942485722705920/


----------



## shadow puppet

Cmaier said:


> I predict the secret service says that didn’t happen.



Looks that way.
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541910389289635841/


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> Can totally see it..
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541942485722705920/



That portion of her testimony was hearsay, and she phrased it as such. Most other portions were things she directly observed.

It would have been best for the commission to focus only on things she directly heard or saw. That being said, perhaps the idea is to provoke these people to come forward and testify. Of course, they realize they must answer other questions too, right?

Sadly, the media cannot help themselves from focusing on this salacious bit of tabloid fodder. The real story (which nobody is disputing) is that Trump clearly knew that the rioters were armed and still instructed them to go to the Capitol. He also repeatedly requested to go to the Capitol, defying legal counsel. He indicated that Pence ”deserved it“ in regards to the mob chanting for him to be hanged…


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> That portion of her testimony was hearsay, and she phrased it as such. Most other portions were things she directly observed.
> 
> It would have been best for the commission to focus only on things she directly heard or saw. That being said, perhaps the idea is to provoke these people to come forward and testify. Of course, they realize they must answer other questions too, right?
> 
> Sadly, the media cannot help themselves from focusing on this salacious bit of tabloid fodder. The real story (which nobody is disputing) is that Trump clearly knew that the rioters were armed and still instructed them to go to the Capitol. He also repeatedly requested to go to the Capitol, defying legal counsel. He indicated that Pence ”deserved it“ in regards to the mob chanting for him to be hanged…



The only two rolls who could have seen it already answered questions for the committee. Raskin said they didn’t confirm her story but that he knew of no evidence that contradicted it. I took that to mean they weren’t asked, perhaps because they didn’t know the story until after they were deposed. 

But that would be very stupid of them (allowing her to testify as to the hearsay if they didn’t have a second source that saw it directly)


----------



## SuperMatt

shadow puppet said:


> Looks that way.
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541910389289635841/



Her testimony may have been hearsay, but this is hearsay from an anonymous source, even less reliable.

I hope they do decide to testify. The more, the merrier!


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> Her testimony may have been hearsay, but this is hearsay from an anonymous source, even less reliable.
> 
> I hope they do decide to testify. The more, the merrier!



I think, technically, the source is not anonymous. Unnamed today, maybe. But I’m sure the committee knows who it is.


----------



## Joe

Runs For Fun said:


> It’s absolutely crazy that everyone on the right just wants to bury their head in the sand and pretend this didn’t happen or wasn’t a big deal. Fucking idiots.




They don't care. That white supremacy and staying in power is worth everything to these people. That's why so many of them vote against their own interest.


----------



## Citysnaps

Cmaier said:


> I predict the secret service says that didn’t happen.




Meaning that it actually didn't happen?   Or, it did happen, but the secret service would not be truthful?


----------



## Cmaier

citypix said:


> Meaning that it actually didn't happen?   Or, it did happen, but the secret service would not be truthful?



well, i was 65% sure they would say it didn’t happen. And I’m 51% sure it didn’t happen.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Trump is a maniac

*Jan. 6 Hearings Day 6: Trump Threw Dishes, Fought With His Own Security in ‘Furious’ Tirade as Riots Raged*
https://news.yahoo.com/jan-6-hearings-day-6-170744091.html


Stable Genius from
      PoliticalHumor

*Trump tried to grab steering wheel to go to U.S. Capitol Jan 6 -witness*
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/tr...wheel-go-us-capitol-jan-6-witness-2022-06-28/



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541882875494162438/

And his meltdown on TS in chronological order


----------



## lizkat

SuperMatt said:


> They won’t say anything… they gotta keep their *secrets*.




They won't lie under oath and will likely be asked to testify.


----------



## GermanSuplex

SuperMatt said:


> That portion of her testimony was hearsay, and she phrased it as such. Most other portions were things she directly observed.
> 
> It would have been best for the commission to focus only on things she directly heard or saw. That being said, perhaps the idea is to provoke these people to come forward and testify. Of course, they realize they must answer other questions too, right?
> 
> Sadly, the media cannot help themselves from focusing on this salacious bit of tabloid fodder. The real story (which nobody is disputing) is that Trump clearly knew that the rioters were armed and still instructed them to go to the Capitol. He also repeatedly requested to go to the Capitol, defying legal counsel. He indicated that Pence ”deserved it“ in regards to the mob chanting for him to be hanged…




Yes, but there’s more to story. It was covered on MSNBC. Some of the people she mentioned - can’t remember if it was the guy who was allegedly lunged at by Trump or someone else in the vehicle - has already been interviewed by the committee. I need to read more about it because they were covering so much, but it’s not merely her telling something someone told her and that’s it - the committee knows more. It’s possible it was a tall tale or entirely fictitious, but these are carefully coordinated hearings. There was also discussion about how some of the secret service agents may have been more aligned with Trump and that also ties into Pence not wanting to leave the Capitol. I don’t think it was merely him wanting to “get back to work”… I think he legit feared he didn’t know who was up to what.

There’s definitely more to this story.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541901265197641728/


----------



## GermanSuplex

More about the "Trump lunging at secret service agent story" - Hutchinson testified it was Tony Ornato who recounted the story of Trump lunging at head secret service agent Robert Engel. Both of those men have already testified before the committee, but we don't know what was said. The secret service said both men will be available to testify again.

So there's a few possibilities. Hutchinson could be lying altogether (highly unlikely). The event could have never happened, but been relayed to her. Or it could have happened, and then who knows where we go from there. It's not all that important in the scheme of things, but it does speak to Trump's character and mindset. Which is that of a doofus and obsessively narcissistic, developmentally-arrested fool who thought he was going to lead his troops into combat.


https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/28/politics/trump-lunge-secret-service-january-6-capitol/index.html


----------



## Cmaier

Allegedly one of the two people who is apparently willing to say the limo thing didn’t happen previously said something untrue (according to 6 witnesses). Though supposedly this time he may say it under oath.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541955418292998147/


----------



## Runs For Fun

This is a grown man throwing temper tantrums like a little kid when his mom said we aren't going to the playground.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Trump projects himself as loving America and being so patriotic but the Grifter-In-Chief has no problem throwing the country into turmoil all to satisfy his pathological ego and to cover his embarrassment at having lost. And let's not forget that this is nothing new with Trump. Even when he won in 2016 he advanced the idea that the popular vote was compromised (because Hillary got more than him). And he claimed his inauguration crowd was larger than Obama's (despite photographic evidence), etc. etc.


----------



## Roller

Runs For Fun said:


> This is a grown man throwing temper tantrums like a little kid when his mom said we aren't going to the playground.



Alarmingly, this is the same grown man (physically, that is, apart from his hands, perhaps) who commanded our armed forces and had access to the nuclear codes. But we can no longer rely on institutions to protect us the next time around.


----------



## lizkat

Just the glimpse yesterday (near end of hearing) at a few communications with the look and feel of witness intimidation efforts were interesting.  They suggest that obstruction of justice charges may eventually ensue from the DoJ's investigation.   

On the other hand Trump himself has been open in the past about trying to intimidate witnesses on twitter, and then blowing his remarks off as merely misunderstood expressions of opinion.  And then the public blows that off as "well he's Trump so what do you expect".    So who knows if whoever at lower levels has been sending messages like that to potential hearing witnesses will make similar protestations or explanations and manage to skate on it too.

Sigh.  The threats read like they were taken out of cheap adaptations of Law and Order reruns and even if everyone recognizes them as threats,  they may also be relegated to reality-tv-land in public perception. 

So frustrating.  "_Nothing really matters_" seems to be the bottom-line public mantra of our era in terms of how we react finally to malpractice and mischief in our governments for far too long already.   I had thought that "_They're all the same and rotten to the core"_ was a bad enough reaction, and not true anyway,  but topping that off with a decision that they're all rotten to the core AND it doesn't really matter, well...  that level of cynicism and related apathy is really putting us on a slippery slope to losing the power to change things with our votes.


----------



## GermanSuplex

mac_in_tosh said:


> Trump projects himself as loving America and being so patriotic but the Grifter-In-Chief has no problem throwing the country into turmoil all to satisfy his pathological ego and to cover his embarrassment at having lost. And let's not forget that this is nothing new with Trump. Even when he won in 2016 he advanced the idea that the popular vote was compromised (because Hillary got more than him). And he claimed his inauguration crowd was larger than Obama's (despite photographic evidence), etc. etc.




But he hugged the flag!


----------



## GermanSuplex

lizkat said:


> Just the glimpse yesterday (near end of hearing) at a few communications with the look and feel of witness intimidation efforts were interesting.  They suggest that obstruction of justice charges may eventually ensue from the DoJ's investigation.
> 
> On the other hand Trump himself has been open in the past about trying to intimidate witnesses on twitter, and then blowing his remarks off as merely misunderstood expressions of opinion.  And then the public blows that off as "well he's Trump so what do you expect".    So who knows if whoever at lower levels has been sending messages like that to potential hearing witnesses will make similar protestations or explanations and manage to skate on it too.
> 
> Sigh.  The threats read like they were taken out of cheap adaptations of Law and Order reruns and even if everyone recognizes them as threats,  they may also be relegated to reality-tv-land in public perception.
> 
> So frustrating.  "_Nothing really matters_" seems to be the bottom-line public mantra of our era in terms of how we react finally to malpractice and mischief in our governments for far too long already.   I had thought that "_They're all the same and rotten to the core"_ was a bad enough reaction, and not true anyway,  but topping that off with a decision that they're all rotten to the core AND it doesn't really matter, well...  that level of cynicism and related apathy is really putting us on a slippery slope to losing the power to change things with our votes.




Say what you will about MSNBC, but their analysis is great. I’m aware it’s an echo-chamber of sorts, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t right.

Someone mentioned that although we think we know everything about Trump because he’s an oaf and does so much wrong in public, there’s still a lot we don’t know.

I’d be curious if anything he took to Mar-A-Lago has any Jan. 6-related material. It was wrong for him to take it anyways… can you imagine Obama hauling off classified docs to Martha’s Vineyard? The outrage that would ensue? That’s merely a coffee stain on the Trump admin’s list of abhorrent conduct.

Liz Cheney sent a message, and I would not be surprised if they’re actively committing more crimes as we speak. It’s all Trump and his cronies know how to do.

This whole saga is based on a lie, because his ego doesn’t allow him to accept defeat. Lies turn into more lies, crimes turn into more crimes. I expect a few people to turn, because what can Trump offer them?


----------



## Runs For Fun

Roller said:


> Alarmingly, this is the same grown man (physically, that is, apart from his hands, perhaps) who commanded our armed forces and had access to the nuclear codes. But we can no longer rely on institutions to protect us the next time around.



Yep, I was going to say that as well. This guy was in charge of the most powerful country in the world. Terrifying.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I think it’s a mistake to focus on the steering wheel lunge, happened or not. It took me about 2 seconds to figure out that his supporters will just see it as his dedication to fighting for them. At minimum I wouldn’t expect them to be horrified by it or see it as an example of him only caring about himself. And if it gets disputed by the secret service then they’ll see it as proof the entire hearing is a sham. I think they should have left that genie in its bottle. It’s in no way a deciding moment that outweighs everything else but it opens the door to those on the fence leaning towards supporting Trump to use this as an excuse to blow off everything else.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I'm finding the smoking gun headlines about yesterday's hearing a bit disturbing because we all know where that type language has gone before....nowhere.  I guess "news" organizations can't help themselves.  And I say "news" because news isn't full of opinion descriptors...or at least it didn't use to be.  But I'm sure there are many alive today who aren't aware of how that used to be...just like they aren't old enough to know a time when the government wasn't a hot mess of corrupt minority rule, and I'm including rich elites in that equation.  Minority rule existed even before racist evangelicals were handed the baton.


----------



## lizkat

Runs For Fun said:


> Yep, I was going to say that as well. This guy was in charge of the most powerful country in the world. Terrifying.




Terrifying that but for a few individuals, Trump almost shredded the Constitution's safeguards against exceeding the brief of his office,  even as we looked on figuring "hey well this too shall pass even if it's pretty bad". 

"Pretty bad" morphed into Jan 6th.   Something no one alive today had seen in our history.  Something that too many Rs are still shrugging off as an exercise in freedom of expression.  Even knowing that Trump was dead serious about not leaving office.

But what can we do?   The 25th A is hard enough to implement even for physical illness, never mind trying to take on a decompensating narcissist.     There was "talk" about it in Trump's cabinet, but no appetite to go for it.  Meanwhile the government almost fell.  WTF.    And some people still think this was cool?

You'd think the Republicans would join Democrats in trying to shore up legislative safeguards against this stuff, but all this crop of Rs seem interested in is making it possible for a political minority to take and then retain powers of governance regardless of actual vote counts.   They're well positioned to give it another go in 2022 and 2024 if you ask me.  And they know it.  Their only weak spot is still in the federal courts at levels below SCOTUS, notwithstanding all those McConnell ram-throughs of young right wingers who may prove problematic for democracy going forward.  These midterm elections in 2022 are more than usually significant for that reason.  I hope the Dems can turn out a vote for democracy in spite of the fact that all ordinary pocketbooks are getting hammered these days by inflation.


----------



## Roller

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I think it’s a mistake to focus on the steering wheel lunge, happened or not. It took me about 2 seconds to figure out that his supporters will just see it as his dedication to fighting for them. At minimum I wouldn’t expect them to be horrified by it or see it as an example of him only caring about himself. And if it gets disputed by the secret service then they’ll see it as proof the entire hearing is a sham. I think they should have left that genie in its bottle. It’s in no way a deciding moment that outweighs everything else but it opens the door to those on the fence leaning towards supporting Trump to use this as an excuse to blow off everything else.



If the committee has testimony that corroborates Hutchinson's statements about what Omato told her with Engel present, I would think they would have presented that as well. From the legal perspective, whether or not Trump lunged and/or reached for the driver's neck doesn't make that much of a difference, except maybe to show his intent to go to the Capitol. But it does affect public opinion. Not for the supporters who will claim it's a witch hunt no matter what the evidence shows, but for the people who are still unsure whether Trump should be indicted. Getting them on board will be important if and when the DOJ moves forward.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Roller said:


> If the committee has testimony that corroborates Hutchinson's statements about what Omato told her with Engel present, I would think they would have presented that as well. From the legal perspective, whether or not Trump lunged and/or reached for the driver's neck doesn't make that much of a difference, except maybe to show his intent to go to the Capitol. But it does affect public opinion. Not for the supporters who will claim it's a witch hunt no matter what the evidence shows, but for the people who are still unsure whether Trump should be indicted. Getting them on board will be important if and when the DOJ moves forward.




I'm saying that single event isn't going to change opinion and if it's disputed by the secret service or not corroborated there will be issues with opinion linked to doubts about other insane behavior.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Pretty good analysis 








						Thread by @AmoneyResists on Thread Reader App
					

@AmoneyResists: Here’s why Cassidy Hutchinson’s testimony to the January 6th committee was the end for Trump from a prosecution standpoint (Thread) Trump’s whole “case” relies on 3 “defenses”: 1. He really believed ...…




					threadreaderapp.com


----------



## Macky-Mac

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I'm saying that single event isn't going to change opinion and if it's disputed by the secret service or not corroborated there will be issues with opinion linked to doubts about other insane behavior.




Opinions are already set......although some of the info is amusing and entertaining


----------



## SuperMatt

Macky-Mac said:


> Opinions are already set......although some of the info is amusing and entertaining



The rule of law trumps people’s opinions. Maybe most people think Trump is a jerk, but you can’t just shoot him and get away with it. Same for him. If he broke the law, he broke the law.


----------



## fooferdoggie

SuperMatt said:


> The rule of law trumps people’s opinions. Maybe most people think Trump is a jerk, but you can’t just shoot him and get away with it. Same for him. If he broke the law, he broke the law.



but he does get away with breaking the law. though not his minions.


----------



## lizkat

Macky-Mac said:


> Opinions are already set......although some of the info is amusing and entertaining




I should think it might give at least a few of the high dollar pro-Trump donors in the RNC's rolodex pause, long enough to ask themselves whether they really want a guy with such poor impulse control to regain the power to launch our nukes. 

It won't stop them from bankrolling a guy like DeSantis,  but it might put a stop to their support of another actual run by Trump.

The prospect of a third run by Trump in 2024 does seem a little remote to me at the moment, all things considered.  but then I never really thought Trump would get the nomination in 2016 never mind win, and forget about imagining he'd run for re-election or get RNC's affirmation of him in their winter meeting in 2021.  

 So it's probably safe to pay no mind to my speculations on Trump's future:   they've all been way off the mark when it comes to evaluating potential Republican support for him. I'm aware now that my blithe "that's not who we are" assessment of my fellow countrymen in 2016 was also way off the mark, but somehow I still can't get my mind around the idea that after all this he could still gain the Rs' nomination in 2024.

It seems like some sort of death wish on the part of the GOP.  They've exhausted the actual marginal utility of Trump as an elected official, even if he can still attract votes.  I mean there's no more money for tax breaks and the Supreme Court is already politicized with a rightward lean.  Those were the two discernible planks in what passed for the GOP's platform the past 12 years.  Their 2020 platform was just "Trump's our guy".   It looks like the only thing can upset that going forward is Trump checking out via one too many cheeseburgers, else maybe a blue wave that we're not likely to see in November of 2022 thanks to the economy. 

Trump wasn't suited for the Presidency,  didn't like the actual job,  hated the establishment even after it was his establishment,  and yet clung to power figuring --I guess--  that if he hung on long enough, maybe he really could become president for life and so end up able to change the specs of the job much more to his own liking.   I might have laughed at that in 2016 too.  Not any more.  I sure hope the DoJ is not going to bring us to another dead end on tripping this guy up over his abuses of power.


----------



## Eric

JFC...


Frothing Berserker cries out for Donald Trump during the events of January 6th. from
      pics


----------



## Roller

lizkat said:


> I should think it might give at least a few of the high dollar pro-Trump donors in the RNC's rolodex pause, long enough to ask themselves whether they really want a guy with such poor impulse control to regain the power to launch our nukes.
> 
> It won't stop them from bankrolling a guy like DeSantis,  but it might put a stop to their support of another actual run by Trump.
> 
> The prospect of a third run by Trump in 2024 does seem a little remote to me at the moment, all things considered.  but then I never really thought Trump would get the nomination in 2016 never mind win, and forget about imagining he'd run for re-election or get RNC's affirmation of him in their winter meeting in 2021.
> 
> So it's probably safe to pay no mind to my speculations on Trump's future:   they've all been way off the mark when it comes to evaluating potential Republican support for him. I'm aware now that my blithe "that's not who we are" assessment of my fellow countrymen in 2016 was also way off the mark, but somehow I still can't get my mind around the idea that after all this he could still gain the Rs' nomination in 2024.
> 
> It seems like some sort of death wish on the part of the GOP.  They've exhausted the actual marginal utility of Trump as an elected official, even if he can still attract votes.  I mean there's no more money for tax breaks and the Supreme Court is already politicized with a rightward lean.  Those were the two discernible planks in what passed for the GOP's platform the past 12 years.  Their 2020 platform was just "Trump's our guy".   It looks like the only thing can upset that going forward is Trump checking out via one too many cheeseburgers, else maybe a blue wave that we're not likely to see in November of 2022 thanks to the economy.
> 
> Trump wasn't suited for the Presidency,  didn't like the actual job,  hated the establishment even after it was his establishment,  and yet clung to power figuring --I guess--  that if he hung on long enough, maybe he really could become president for life and so end up able to change the specs of the job much more to his own liking.   I might have laughed at that in 2016 too.  Not any more.  I sure hope the DoJ is not going to bring us to another dead end on tripping this guy up over his abuses of power.



In some ways, I think DeSantis would be even more of a threat to the country. Trump is so obviously crazy, narcissistic, and stupid that it was possible for people to prevent implementation of some of his most off-the-wall impulses, like firing rockets into Mexico. DeSantis is despicable, but has a thin veneer of respectability, so he'll get the donations and support that Trump wouldn't.


----------



## Joe

Runs For Fun said:


> This is a grown man throwing temper tantrums like a little kid when his mom said we aren't going to the playground.




That's the alpha male conservatives love lmao


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Joe said:


> That's the alpha male conservatives love lmao




Anytime there is a Trump or Trumpism event the local opposition should cover the advertising signs with “Insecure men symposium”


----------



## Edd

lizkat said:


> I should think it might give at least a few of the high dollar pro-Trump donors in the RNC's rolodex pause, long enough to ask themselves whether they really want a guy with such poor impulse control to regain the power to launch our nukes.
> 
> It won't stop them from bankrolling a guy like DeSantis,  but it might put a stop to their support of another actual run by Trump.
> 
> The prospect of a third run by Trump in 2024 does seem a little remote to me at the moment, all things considered.  but then I never really thought Trump would get the nomination in 2016 never mind win, and forget about imagining he'd run for re-election or get RNC's affirmation of him in their winter meeting in 2021.
> 
> So it's probably safe to pay no mind to my speculations on Trump's future:   they've all been way off the mark when it comes to evaluating potential Republican support for him. I'm aware now that my blithe "that's not who we are" assessment of my fellow countrymen in 2016 was also way off the mark, but somehow I still can't get my mind around the idea that after all this he could still gain the Rs' nomination in 2024.
> 
> It seems like some sort of death wish on the part of the GOP.  They've exhausted the actual marginal utility of Trump as an elected official, even if he can still attract votes.  I mean there's no more money for tax breaks and the Supreme Court is already politicized with a rightward lean.  Those were the two discernible planks in what passed for the GOP's platform the past 12 years.  Their 2020 platform was just "Trump's our guy".   It looks like the only thing can upset that going forward is Trump checking out via one too many cheeseburgers, else maybe a blue wave that we're not likely to see in November of 2022 thanks to the economy.
> 
> Trump wasn't suited for the Presidency,  didn't like the actual job,  hated the establishment even after it was his establishment,  and yet clung to power figuring --I guess--  that if he hung on long enough, maybe he really could become president for life and so end up able to change the specs of the job much more to his own liking.   I might have laughed at that in 2016 too.  Not any more.  I sure hope the DoJ is not going to bring us to another dead end on tripping this guy up over his abuses of power.



I share your frustration in my inability to predict what the GOP will come up with next, in terms of candidates. “Someone shitty” is the safest bet. Can Trump even tie his own tie? Buckle his belt? We know umbrella functionality is beyond him. Biden rides bikes. For Trump that’d be like going to the moon.


----------



## DT

Roller said:


> In some ways, I think DeSantis would be even more of a threat to the country. Trump is so obviously crazy, narcissistic, and stupid that it was possible for people to prevent implementation of some of his most off-the-wall impulses, like firing rockets into Mexico. DeSantis is despicable, but has a thin veneer of respectability, so he'll get the donations and support that Trump wouldn't.




I'm already seeing this locally,  morons are pivoting from DRUMPH 2024 signs to DEATHSANTIS 2024, and I see quite a bit of local chatter about supporting this kook (keep in mind, I'm in Flori-Duh ...)

You are also spot on, he's got a just-as-bad social-political outlook, that's not diluted by the same level of stupidity as the orange halfwit.

Again - and I can absolutely guarantee this isn't lip service - we will, at the very least, bail from Florida depending on the political situation in the next couple of years.


----------



## lizkat

Joe said:


> That's the alpha male conservatives love lmao




At least the extreme form....   I was recently binge-rewatching some of The Sopranos, so yeah, I say that's on the money.

All about grab and go and let out the rage with fists, knife or gun if someone tries to get in the way.   Little to zero impulse control.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

DT said:


> I'm already seeing this locally,  morons are pivoting from DRUMPH 2024 signs to DEATHSANTIS 2024, and I see quite a bit of local chatter about supporting this kook (keep in mind, I'm in Flori-Duh ...)
> 
> You are also spot on, he's got a just-as-bad social-political outlook, that's not diluted by the same level of stupidity as the orange halfwit.
> 
> Again - and I can absolutely guarantee this isn't lip service - we will, at the very least, bail from Florida depending on the political situation in the next couple of years.




I've heard from some never Trumper right leaners that DeSantis lacks the part of Trump's personality that makes him a national superstar and DeSantis would be less appealing nationally based on that.  I don't know what that means exactly, but like many on here, I feel many on the right would welcome a Trump-like candidate that doesn't have all the baggage.  On the other hand it seems like DeSantis is busying himself creating his own baggage that won't be appealing to others.  

Regardless, we should all be horrified that one of the major parties is finding great success by making one of the worst human beings this country has ever produced the base model that all contenders should try to emulate.


----------



## Macky-Mac

SuperMatt said:


> The rule of law trumps people’s opinions. Maybe most people think Trump is a jerk, but you can’t just shoot him and get away with it. Same for him. If he broke the law, he broke the law.




unfortunately some people get away with breaking the law......forever.

Is it even remotely possible to create an impartial jury to try Trump for anything?


----------



## SuperMatt

Macky-Mac said:


> unfortunately some people get away with breaking the law......forever.
> 
> Is it even remotely possible to create an impartial jury to try Trump for anything?



He’s entitled to trial by a jury of his peers. It shouldn’t be too hard to find 12 narcissists in America.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Regardless, we should all be horrified that one of the major parties is finding great success by making one of the worst human beings this country has ever produced the base model that all contenders should try to emulate.



Don’t be so hard on Joe Biden...


----------



## Macky-Mac

lizkat said:


> I should think it might give at least a few of the high dollar pro-Trump donors in the RNC's rolodex pause, long enough to ask themselves whether they really want a guy with such poor impulse control to regain the power to launch our nukes.....




Sure, briefly.....but they'll get over any such reservations pretty quickly.

Both Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy made some harsh statements about Trump immediately after Jan 6, but it didn't take either of them long to figure out that they needed to reposition their thinking if they wanted to continue to have a future in their party


----------



## Macky-Mac

SuperMatt said:


> He’s entitled to trial by a jury of his peers. It shouldn’t be too hard to find 12 narcissists in America.




hmmm, his "peers"......you mean billionaires who love Trump?  

I had to edit my post cuz obviously only billionaires would be Trumps peers.....everyone else is a "loser" it seems


----------



## Roller

DT said:


> I'm already seeing this locally,  morons are pivoting from DRUMPH 2024 signs to DEATHSANTIS 2024, and I see quite a bit of local chatter about supporting this kook (keep in mind, I'm in Flori-Duh ...)
> 
> You are also spot on, he's got a just-as-bad social-political outlook, that's not diluted by the same level of stupidity as the orange halfwit.
> 
> Again - and I can absolutely guarantee this isn't lip service - we will, at the very least, bail from Florida depending on the political situation in the next couple of years.



I wonder what it's going to take to knock Trump off his pedestal. I don't imagine he'll easily go from Republican party leader and '24 presidential candidate to being a kingmaker holding court at Mar-a-Lago and giving his stamp of approval to prospective replacements. Trump's status as an endorser has lost its shine recently, though not enough for people to openly cross him. Prosecution and conviction by the DOJ could also accelerate this, but the clock is running out. 

At this point, though, I can't think of a viable Republican candidate who wants to govern the entire country diligently and address problems cooperatively. The party already has much of what it needs to remain in power at all levels by controlling the election apparatus and putting even more like-minded judges in place, to be followed by further eroding key protections and dismantling the social safety net, to the extent it even really exists. 

To get beyond this, it's going to take a sizable portion of the electorate, well beyond the people who typically vote Democratic, to realize that the current Republican party is bereft of meaningful policy proposals to address existential issues like climate change, emerging global pathogens, and wealth/health inequality.


----------



## Roller

On the one hand, it was extremely brave of Cassidy Hutchinson to testify in a hearing that she knew would be watched intently by people worldwide, including her former bosses. She's only 25 or 26 (I've seen both quoted), and demonstrated poise and demeanor far beyond her years.

But I also note that she willingly took the job as senior aide to Mark Meadows, just down the hall from the Oval Office occupied by a man whose misogyny, narcissism, cruelty, and unsuitability as president were well known. Hutchinson also previously served as an intern for Ted Cruz, a person just as bad as Trump.

I'm sure the proximity to power is intoxicating, especially for someone so young. But Hutchinson knew all the facts she testified to yesterday at the time of Trump's second impeachment trial in February 2021. Had she and others come forward then, I think enough sclerotic Republican senators would have voted to convict. It's the same for all the journalists and former officials who held on to what they knew until they could cash in with a book deal.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Macky-Mac said:


> Sure, briefly.....but they'll get over any such reservations pretty quickly.
> 
> Both Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy made some harsh statements about Trump immediately after Jan 6, but it didn't take either of them long to figure out that they needed to reposition their thinking if they wanted to continue to have a future in their party



Yep the turtle basically said trump did bad and even if he broke the law the turtle would support him if he ran again.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Meltdown continued


----------



## fooferdoggie

I bet another happy meal or bucket of KFC hit the wall.


----------



## SuperMatt

Runs For Fun said:


> Meltdown continued



Truth social is like when you asked your parents for Transformers for Christmas and they bought you GoBots. At least most kids had the sense to hide them from their friends even if they played with them a little…

Seriously, they could have gotten Trump a “Speak ‘n’ Say” and tell him it‘s the new version of Twitter and he probably wouldn’t know.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

If Trump is so upset with the committee, why doesn't he come before it armed with proof of how the election was rigged?


----------



## SuperMatt

mac_in_tosh said:


> If Trump is so upset with the committee, why doesn't he come before it armed with proof of how the election was rigged?



Yes, go under oath and prove all the “haters” wrong!


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Roller said:


> At this point, though, I can't think of a viable Republican candidate who wants to govern the entire country diligently and address problems cooperatively.



Exactly. Republicans are not interested in governing in the usual sense of the word. They just seem to want to reduce taxes for their donor class and they never seem to want to spend money on anything other than defense. A perfect example is that wretched Ted Cruz heading off to the Caribbean while citizens of Texas were suffering from massive power outages. And Montana's GOP governor was out of the state during historic flooding there.

The one thing Republicans like to tout is how good they are for the economy. Clinton had a balanced budget. During W's term we had the debt crisis and recession. Obama had to clean that mess up and then Trump left with the economy in shambles due to his bungling of the pandemic and his failed trade war.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Deathsantis might be almost as bad as Trump. If he runs that would be terrifying.


----------



## Yoused

Runs For Fun said:


> Meltdown continued



he seems to have an editor, for those posts are waaay too coherent


----------



## Runs For Fun

A President Untethered
					

In the final, frenzied days of his administration, Donald J. Trump’s behavior turned increasingly volatile as he smashed dishware and lunged at his own Secret Service agent, according to testimony.




					www.nytimes.com
				






> when Mr. Trump descended into rage, his staff resorted to summoning an aide, nicknamed the Music Man, to play favorite show tunes they knew would soothe him, including “Memory” from the Broadway musical “Cats.”


----------



## Roller

SuperMatt said:


> Yes, go under oath and prove all the “haters” wrong!



Of course, it’s never been about truth, despite the name of Trump’s social media platform. The tactic was to repeat the stolen election lie so often, beginning well before November 2020, to sow doubt about the legitimacy of Biden’s win and gin up the insurrectionists if Pence and the states didn’t come through. 

Until the other day, it wasn’t entirely clear whether Trump believed his own rhetoric, especially as all the legal challenges were rebuffed in the courts. But we now know Trump was told repeatedly that there was no basis for these claims. Yet he exhorted his mob and wanted to join them at the Capitol. If that’s not seditious conspiracy, that statute should be removed from the books.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1542165174949486594/


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1542222110029905922/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I'm undecided if 1/6 will be Trump's downfall or his supreme court.  The supreme court is really gunning for center stage on pissing a lot of people off with no slow in their momentum in sight.  Makes me think of when it's determined a murder victim probably knew their killer due to the level of overkill and brutality.  It's certainly going to make some lengthy opposition ads.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Jan. 6 committee may make criminal referral on witness tampering -Cheney
					

The congressional panel investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, U.S. Capitol attack may make a criminal referral to the Justice Department recommending that anybody who tried to influence testimony be prosecuted, Representative Liz Cheney said in an interview broadcast on Thursday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

So, while the story of Trump lunging at the wheel is relatively minor (though attacking someone is not so much), this has been what MAGA world has latched onto to try to discredit Hutchinson's testimony. However, it should be noted Tony Ornato is a Trump guy.... and he's already broken secret service precedent in dedication to the MAGA cult.









						Reporter: Agent who refuted Hutchinson testimony is a "Trump acolyte"
					

Trump liked Tony Ornato so much he gave him a political job while keeping him part of the Secret Service.




					www.salon.com


----------



## DT

Runs For Fun said:


> Meltdown continued




There's always some clown-speak from him / his cronies, i.e., the "unselect", then the supporters graft that into every conversation like it's super clever, but it's fucking idiotic.

I guess when much of your constituency are morons who can't think for themselves, they need their cute little buzzwords to use on Twitter.


----------



## GermanSuplex

So it looks like at least one of the messages that Cheney was referring to when she warned about witness tampering came from a Mark Meadows intermediary. A Meadows spokesperson denied trying to influence Hutchinson, but notice he doesn't actually deny the messages.... The last sentence makes no sense. What's misleading? The messages, her characterization of them?

I mean, if Meadows or one of his cronies didn't send the message, why not just say that?

_Ben Williamson, a spokesperson for Meadows, provided the following statement to POLITICO: “No one from Meadows’ camp, himself or otherwise, has ever attempted to intimidate or shape Ms. Hutchinson’s testimony to the committee. Any phone call or message she is describing is at best deeply misleading.”









						New details of Jan. 6 panel's mystery messages emerge
					

Former Trump White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson told the committee she was contacted by an intermediary for Mark Meadows, according to a person familiar with her final deposition.




					www.politico.com
				



_


----------



## Roller

I live in a deeply red state, and so, predictably, I knew many people who voted for Trump in 2016. Most of them were friends and colleagues who are well-educated, competent, and thoughtful. For the few I spoke to, reasons ranged from believing Trump would shake up the political sclerosis in Washington to Hillary's emails to nondescript pronouncements that it couldn't hurt to try someone different for a change. All this despite ample evidence of Trump's unsuitability.

I don't know how many of them voted again for Trump in 2020 — I haven't asked and don't plan to. But after watching testimony at the hearings so far, I have no tolerance for anyone who still supports him.


----------



## DT

Same.

My intolerance scale for Trump voters/supporters - where 1 is a complete pass, and 10 is I won't have __any__ engagement with you - went from about a 3 in 2016, to a 10 in 2020, and now, I'd need a scale those goes to 50.

There are pieces of shit around here still flying their Drump 2024 flags, loud and proud that they support a criminal and a traitor.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Might be wishful thinking on my part, but I feel like Trump has outlived his purpose for both the party and thier voters.  He's got too much baggage and there are plenty of other nutter contenders and the supreme court, the ultimate goal, is well into a mission accomplished streak.  

I think it's fitting when his speaking engagements happen at fairgrounds.  That's where most hasbeens go to die.


----------



## DT

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I think it's fitting when his speaking engagements happen at fairgrounds.  That's where most hasbeens go to die.




How dare you sir, my metal band from high school played the fairgrounds on a Sunday afternoon and it was our largest turnout ever.

Those 6 people got f***ing rocked!


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

DT said:


> How dare you sir, my metal band from high school played the fairgrounds on a Sunday afternoon and it was our largest turnout ever.
> 
> Those 6 people got f***ing rocked!




My band determined for the biggest audience at a fairground it’s best to play in the bathroom next to the beer garden.


----------



## Runs For Fun

These people are delusional








						Oath Keepers will tell a jury they believed Donald Trump would turn them into his own personal militia on January 6
					

Elmer Stewart Rhodes will tell a DC jury he had a non-seditious reason to be at the Capitol: He thought Trump would federalize the Oath Keepers.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Even for those who supported Trump overthrowing the election by illegal means have to marvel at the level of incompetence on secrecy.  At some point people go from being useful idiots to just being idiots and the actions of 1/6 are full of just idiots.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Runs For Fun said:


> These people are delusional
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oath Keepers will tell a jury they believed Donald Trump would turn them into his own personal militia on January 6
> 
> 
> Elmer Stewart Rhodes will tell a DC jury he had a non-seditious reason to be at the Capitol: He thought Trump would federalize the Oath Keepers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com




"There's no world in which it's remotely likely where the president of the United States would invoke the Insurrection Act," Nunn said, "and call on *what is fundamentally just a social club of guys who have firearms.*"


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1542947623845478400/

THEY knew this!



> Accounts of Trump angrily demanding to go to the Capitol on January 6 circulated in Secret Service over past year
> 
> 
> Then-President Donald Trump angrily demanded to go to the US Capitol on January 6, 2021, and berated his protective detail when he didn't get his way, according to two Secret Service sources who say they heard about the incident from multiple agents, including the driver of the presidential SUV...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com





> (CNN)Then-President Donald Trump angrily demanded to go to the US Capitol on January 6, 2021, and berated his protective detail when he didn't get his way, according to two Secret Service sources who say they heard about the incident from multiple agents, including the driver of the presidential SUV where it occurred.
> 
> The sources tell CNN that stories circulated about the incident -- including details that are similar to how former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson described it to the House select committee investigating January 6 -- in the months immediately afterward the US Capitol attack and before she testified this week.
> 
> While the details from those who heard the accounts differ, the Secret Service sources say they were told an angry confrontation did occur. And their accounts align with significant parts of Hutchinson's testimony, which has been attacked as hearsay by Trump and his allies who also have tried to discredit her overall testimony.
> 
> Like Hutchinson, one source, a longtime Secret Service employee, told CNN that the agents relaying the story described Trump as "demanding" and that the former President said something similar to: "I'm the f**king President of the United States, you can't tell me what to do." The source said he originally heard that kind of language was used shortly after the incident.
> 
> "He had sort of lunged forward -- it was unclear from the conversations I had that he actually made physical contact, but he might have. I don't know," the source said. "Nobody said Trump assaulted him; they said he tried to lunge over the seat -- for what reason, nobody had any idea."
> 
> The employee said he'd heard about the incident multiple times as far back as February 2021 from other agents, including some who were part of the presidential protective detail during that time period but none of whom were involved in the incident.


----------



## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1542947623845478400/
> 
> THEY knew this!



Yep, lying for Trump is one thing but when you have to testify under oath shit gets real. This isn't Twitter.

Her testimony was just too credible for me not to believe this.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> Yep, lying for Trump is one thing but when you have to testify under oath shit gets real. This isn't Twitter.
> 
> Her testimony was just too credible for me not to believe this.




But lying to get on the supreme court is perfectly acceptable with zero consequences even if you're proven to be a liar in record time.


----------



## Eric

Whether or not the agent was being truthful about his statement to Hutchison is a fair question, was it exaggeration etc., but her account of it seemed very credible and we have to remember she was under oath as well.


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> Whether or not the agent was being truthful about his statement to Hutchison is a fair question, was it exaggeration etc., but her account of it seemed very credible and we have to remember she was under oath as well.



It was very clear in her testimony that specific story was 2nd-hand. It was good of Liz Cheney to draw attention to that fact when she asked the question too.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

GermanSuplex said:


> So, while the story of Trump lunging at the wheel is relatively minor (though attacking someone is not so much), this has been what MAGA world has latched onto to try to discredit Hutchinson's testimony.



Yes, as if that story turning out to be wrong somehow negates the fact that Trump led a violent mob attack on the Capitol (although now it seems that it wasn't wrong). Also in right wing media they are playing up a recording of Biden telling his son that he's in the clear following a NY Times story as somehow proof of something nefarious (maybe he's in the clear because he didn't do anything wrong) but of course they overlook all of Trump's cheating, lying, infidelity, lawlessness and incompetence.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1543193984058757120/


One of the things to remember that have been factored in, is that the two Secret Service agents themselves have been considered 45 loyalists, and even labeled as "enablers".  The story of what happened had been circulating amongst the Secret Service for a year, yet it didn't come up in his previous deposition.  NOW he wants to go back, which I am sure they will welcome.  You can bet they have new questions waiting once the agent takes the stand.  Otherwise all other comments from the peanut gallery are from people who aren't willing to get on the stand & risk perjuring themselves, so they comment to whatever friendly press they can find.



> Bobby Engel's testimony consistent with Cassidy Hutchinson—legal expert
> 
> 
> Former White House aide Hutchinson told a panel that on January 6,  2021 Donald Trump was irate in the presidential limousine and demanded to be taken to the Capitol to join his supporters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com





> A legal expert has suggested that key details from Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony claiming that Donald Trump lunged at a Secret Service agent's throat and grabbed the steering wheel of the presidential limousine in an attempt to join his supporters rioting at the Capitol can be corroborated by Secret Service agent Bobby Engel's previous testimony.
> 
> Hutchinson, a former aide to White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, made a series of bombshell claims in Tuesday's hearings, including those surrounding Trump's actions soon after he delivered his speech at the Ellipse.
> 
> The Secret Service is reportedly willing to testify that the then-President did not reach for the steering wheel in the car or lunge at Engel, the head of Trump's Secret Service detail at the time.
> 
> Engel has already testified to the January 6 committee behind closed doors. Details of his deposition were previously reported by _Politico_, although it did not include a description of the alleged altercation.
> 
> Engel is said to have told the committee that he and Trump spoke about the former president's desire to go to the Capitol on January 6 but "took different views on the topic" and went back to the White House instead, according to _Politico_.
> 
> Ryan Goodman, professor of law at New York University School of Law, said it is "legally significant" that some of Engel's testimony is "consistent" with Hutchinson.
> 
> "Trump wanted to join at Capitol even as violence unfolded, Trump raised privately with Engel, Engel disagreed, drove back to WH," Goodman tweeted while highlighting key passages from the _Politico_ report.
> 
> Hutchinson told the panel that Trump was irate in the back of the vehicle and demanded to be taken to the Capitol so he could join his supporters.
> 
> When he was told that they would be going back to the White House, Hutchinson revealed the former president "said something to the effect of 'I'm the f'ing president, take me up to the Capitol now.'"
> 
> Hutchinson said Trump reached up towards the front of the vehicle, known as "The Beast," to grab at the steering wheel.
> 
> Engel is said to have grabbed the former president by the arm and told him "sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel."
> 
> When Engel informed Trump that they were going back to the White House and not the Capitol where the insurrection was unfolding, Trump is alleged to have "used his free hand to lunge towards" Engel and reach for his clavicle area, according to Hutchinson, citing a conversation she had with Tony Ornato, a senior Secret Service official who was Trump's deputy chief of staff for operations.
> 
> _The New York Times_ and Associated Press say both Engel and the driver are prepared to testify that Trump never lunged for the steering wheel. Ornato is also reported to be prepared to deny the claims from Hutchinson under oath.




Whether Hutchinson's second hand account is completely  correct, takes a backseat to the fact that Engel's previous testimony backs up her basics.  The issue is NOW the agent feels the need to update his story, about an event he left out initially.  With what's already known about the agent, it does raise trust issues.



> Journalist Patrick W. Watson suggested there are three possibilities why Engel did not discuss the alleged incident during his earlier testimony.
> 
> "1. He denied the limo incident. 2. He confirmed the limo incident. 3. The limo incident wasn't discussed," Watson tweeted.
> 
> "We can rule out #1, since the committee wouldn't leave Hutchinson open to being disproven. So it must be 2 or 3."
> 
> Trump himself denied the claims in a series of posts on Truth Social as Hutchinson was delivering her testimony,
> 
> "Her Fake story that I tried to grab the steering wheel of the White House Limousine in order to steer it to the Capitol Building is 'sick' and fraudulent, very much like the Unselect Committee itself—Wouldn't even have been possible to do such a ridiculous thing," Trump wrote.
> 
> Responding to the claims the Secret Service agents are willing to dispute Hutchinson's testimony, her lawyer Jody Hunt tweeted: "Hutchinson testified, under oath, and recounted what she was told. Those with knowledge of the episode also should testify under oath."
> 
> Mick Mulvaney, Trump's former Acting Chief of Staff, said he believes Hutchinson's testimony.
> 
> "My guess is that before this is over, we will be hearing testimony from Ornato, Engel, and Meadows," Mulvaney tweeted.
> 
> "This is explosive stuff. If Cassidy is making this up, they will need to say that. If she isn't they will have to corroborate. I know her. I don't think she is lying."
> 
> In a statement, the Secret Service said it has been cooperating with the Select Committee since its inception in spring 2021, and "will continue to do so, including by responding on the record to the Committee regarding the new allegations surfaced in today's testimony."


----------



## GermanSuplex

Until they testify under oath, it’s hot air. And if they contradict Hutchinson’s testimony, it means that someone is lying. She only claimed she was told the story - so either they told her that, or she’s lying. And if they testify she’s lying, then either she’s lying or they are. She has backed them into a corner and now they will be forced to testify against her, or corroborate her story.

I have a hard time believing this young woman interjected herself and testified live before the nation and perjured herself. She knew these people would attack her.

My guess is it all happened exactly as she said: she recounted the story she was told, and she was told the story because it happened.

Unless they testify otherwise, my money is on her. And even then, if they testify under oath it didn’t happen AND they didn’t tell her that it happened, then we will wait to see if they’re telling the truth or just being more loyal goons willing to go to jail for Trump. Which is unbelievable, but they wouldn’t be the first.

As it stands, she testified. Unless and until they contradict her under oath, I have no reason to discredit her testimony. It’s not that hard to believe anyways. He’s an erratic nimrod and he was orchestrating his last coup attempt.


----------



## Yoused

GermanSuplex said:


> She has backed them into a corner and now they will be forced to testify against her, or corroborate her story.



"_Sorry, that information is classified_."


----------



## Macky-Mac

it's a shame there isn't any video of the food being thrown


----------



## GermanSuplex

Yoused said:


> "_Sorry, that information is classified_."




Can something that is supposedly a work of fiction - which is what Trump claims - be classified? If Trump is alleged to have made a pit stop on the way back to the White House and shit in public on the roadway, would that be classified, or would they be free to debunk the story under oath?

Anything other than a firm denial of Hurchinson’s testimony under oath is a confirmation, as far as I’m concerned.

In other news, Kinzinger stated on CNN more witnesses have come forward since Hutchinson.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Get your popcorn ready 

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1544428991272161280/

I have a feeling this one gonna be good


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> In other news, Kinzinger stated on CNN more witnesses have come forward since Hutchinson.




I wonder how many are repeat witnesses who all of a sudden remember more information and need to revise or amend their previous testimony?


----------



## Cmaier

Uh oh, Cipollone agreed to talk…

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/06/...e-jan-6-testimony.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/06/...6-testimony.html?referringSource=articleShare


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> Uh oh, Cipollone agreed to talk…
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/06/...e-jan-6-testimony.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/06/...6-testimony.html?referringSource=articleShare



Interesting...

Here is some more info from Axios (no paywall)


> Former President Trump's White House counsel Pat Cipollone will testify Friday in a closed-door, videotaped interview with the Jan. 6 committee, a source familiar with his plans told Axios.
> 
> *Why it matters: *Cipollone — a crucial witness to what unfolded inside the West Wing on Jan. 6 — was subpoenaed by the committee following former Trump White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson's blockbuster testimony late last month.
> 
> 
> Hutchinson revealed during the committee's last hearing that Cipollone repeatedly tried to prevent Trump from encouraging his supporters to march to the Capitol on Jan. 6.
> She testified that Cipollone had warned in the days leading up to the attack that the former president and his aides could be charged with "every crime imaginable" if Trump joined protesters at the Capitol.
> While the attack was happening, Hutchinson testified that Cipollone demanded to see the president while rioters were chanting for former Vice President Mike Pence to be hanged, but then-White House chief of staff Mark Meadows told him Trump "doesn't want to do anything" and "thinks Mike deserves it."
> *Driving the news: *Cipollone's subpoena has been extended to Friday, the source briefed on the deal told Axios, so he is still in compliance with it.
> 
> 
> Cipollone has spoken to the committee on an informal basis, but his interview was not transcribed or recorded. His Friday interview will be.
> The Jan. 6 committee did not immediately respond to Axios' request for comment.


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> Interesting...
> 
> Here is some more info from Axios (no paywall)



The dominos are beginning to fall.

I think Mark Meadows would be the ultimate witness, but based on what Hutchinson said about him, I think he’d want an immunity deal before agreeing to talk.

He’d need to admit to lying in his book too…


----------



## GermanSuplex

Here's what Trump had to whine about on "Truth" social when he heard Cipollone would be testifying:

_"Why would a future President of the United States want to have candid and important conversations with his White House Counsel if he thought there was even a small chance that this person, essentially acting as a 'lawyer' for the Country, may some day be brought before a partisan and openly hostile Committee in Congress, or even a fair and reasonable Committee, to reveal the inner secrets of foreign policy or other important matters," Trump wrote. "So bad for the USA!"_

Now, that's a pretty tame statement from Trump. As someone on the news said yesterday; that's a far cry from "Phony Cipollone" or some other juvenile name Trump likes to call people. Sounds to me like he's praying nothing is said, and is saving his vitriol for later, after its too late. Then he'll start blasting him.

I do wonder why he didn't speak up sooner. Trump is correct about one thing; Cipollone was not Trump's personal lawyer, he was the WH counsel. The fact all of this stuff happened behind closed doors and virtually nobody spoke up about anything makes you wonder just how bad things have to get in the White House before somebody speaks up. I'd hate to think any of this crap could happen again.


----------



## Edd

GermanSuplex said:


> Here's what Trump had to whine about on "Truth" social when he heard Cipollone would be testifying:
> 
> _"Why would a future President of the United States want to have candid and important conversations with his White House Counsel if he thought there was even a small chance that this person, essentially acting as a 'lawyer' for the Country, may some day be brought before a partisan and openly hostile Committee in Congress, or even a fair and reasonable Committee, to reveal the inner secrets of foreign policy or other important matters," Trump wrote. "So bad for the USA!"_
> 
> Now, that's a pretty tame statement from Trump. As someone on the news said yesterday; that's a far cry from "Phony Cipollone" or some other juvenile name Trump likes to call people. Sounds to me like he's praying nothing is said, and is saving his vitriol for later, after its too late. Then he'll start blasting him.
> 
> I do wonder why he didn't speak up sooner. Trump is correct about one thing; Cipollone was not Trump's personal lawyer, he was the WH counsel. The fact all of this stuff happened behind closed doors and virtually nobody spoke up about anything makes you wonder just how bad things have to get in the White House before somebody speaks up. I'd hate to think any of this crap could happen again.



Trump obviously didn’t write that.


----------



## Yoused

Edd said:


> Trump obviously didn’t write that.




It looks like he is using an aide to costruct his ravings into coherent text, in an apparent effort to get non-morons less disgusted by his crumbling cranium.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Hard to tell if he'll be truthful or just BS around, but this guy clearly has some info on some of the Trump lackeys, probably folks like Flynn, Stone and Rudy Colludy...

_Also Friday, the lawyer for Oath Keepers leader Stewart Rhodes told NBC News that his client wants to testify before the committee a second time, but only if certain conditions are met.









						Ex-Trump White House counsel Cipollone is being 'cooperative' with Jan. 6 committee
					

The panel has called Pat Cipollone a critical witness who repeatedly raised legal concerns about Trump’s activities on Jan. 6 and in the days preceding it.




					www.nbcnews.com
				



_


----------



## Edd

Yoused said:


> It looks like he is using an aide to costruct his ravings into coherent text, in an apparent effort to get non-morons less disgusted by his crumbling cranium.



Yeah, the stupidity is there, but the grammar, while not great, is still above his level.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1545533160259104769/


----------



## Cmaier

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1545533160259104769/




Nah. Rumor is trump is going to waive executive privilege in writing to him. This is so he can go before the committee and just sing trump’s praises.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Rats jumping ship. With both Rhodes and Bannon, it’s hard to say if it will be a stunt or if they’re really going to spill the beans to protect themselves,

Bannon’s lawyer also asked to remove himself from the case, citing he may be called as a witness in Bannon’s trial scheduled for this month.

Two hearings next week alone. Can’t wait!


----------



## Cmaier

GermanSuplex said:


> Rats jumping ship. With both Rhodes and Bannon, it’s hard to say if it will be a stunt or if they’re really going to spill the beans to protect themselves,
> 
> Bannon’s lawyer also asked to remove himself from the case, citing he may be called as a witness in Bannon’s trial scheduled for this month.
> 
> Two hearings next week alone. Can’t wait!




I just don’t see any way Bannon isn’t a stunt; Trump is about to send him the letter revoking his assertion of privilege. There is no way that Trump would revoke privilege unless he expected Brannon to go in there and spout conspiracy theories and tell everyone how big Donald’s hands are. 

As for Rhodes, there have been MANY witnesses so far who have said “I’ll testify, but only live and in person,” and that’s never happened. (Though some have ended up being deposited on tape).  But we know Rhodes is going to be a clown.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Lofgren hinted that Cipollone corroborated witness statements. So no longer second-hand accounts.

Which was already a swerve by the cons anyway, because not all of Huchinson’s testimony was second-hand… she was part of many of the convos she cited.


----------



## Cmaier

GermanSuplex said:


> Lofgren hinted that Cipollone corroborated witness statements. So no longer second-hand accounts.
> 
> Which was already a swerve by the cons anyway, because not all of Huchinson’s testimony was second-hand… she was part of many of the convos she cited.




None of it was hearsay anyway even if she was NOT part of the conversations. the statements were not offered for truth, but for knowledge.

In other words, if they tried to use her testimony to prove that the statement Cippolene made “we’ll be charged with every crime” is true, then it would be hearsay. But if they are using it to prove that Trump was told it was illegal, then it is NOT hearsay (assuming she heard the statements, of course - you can have multiple levels of transmission and you need a way around hearsay for each).  

That said, it’s good to have the actual speaker confirm, though I bet Trump and his MAGA troll army aren’t going to say “oh, yeah, now you’re good.”


----------



## JayMysteri0

Cmaier said:


> Nah. Rumor is trump is going to waive executive privilege in writing to him. This is so he can go before the committee and just sing trump’s praises.



The impression I got from watching last night and reading a few other things, is that it has more to do with Bannon's upcoming trial.






Seems steve o's legal issues are a bit more of a shitshow than previously known.



> Bannon’s Lawyer Seeks to Exit Jan. 6 Contempt Case Before Trial
> 
> 
> (Bloomberg) -- The lawyer defending Steve Bannon against contempt charges over his refusal to cooperate with the Congressional Jan. 6 committee asked to withdraw from the case because he may be called as a trial witness.Most Read from BloombergWho Shot Shinzo Abe and Why? Everything We Know So...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> finance.yahoo.com





> (Bloomberg) -- The lawyer defending Steve Bannon against contempt charges over his refusal to cooperate with the Congressional Jan. 6 committee asked to withdraw from the case because he may be called as a trial witness.
> 
> Robert Costello made his request to US District Judge Carl Nichols in a motion filed Friday in federal court in Washington. The lawyer’s move comes just before Bannon’s trial is set to begin on July 18, but Costello noted that Nichols had yet to rule on an earlier request that he be allowed to testify for the defense about his interactions with the Jan. 6 panel and prosecutors.
> 
> “If the Court decides to prevent me from testifying, there will be no pathway to inform the Jury about the communications with the Select Committee or the three prosecutors in this case,” Costello said. He accused them of interfering with his attorney-client relationship with Bannon by attempting to access his phone records.
> 
> Bannon, a longtime Donald Trump adviser, was indicted in November on two counts of contempt of Congress for refusing to comply with subpoenas from the House Jan. 6 committee seeking his testimony and production of documents.
> 
> He has previously argued that he relied in good faith on Costello’s advice concerning the subpoenas, but Nichols ruled in April that he could not make that case to the jury. Bannon has more recently sought to delay his trial, arguing that the ongoing televised Jan. 6 committee hearings could prevent him from getting a fair trial.




With that last part seeming to be the more important reason for wanting to NOW go before the committee.



> Bannon has more recently sought to delay his trial, arguing that the ongoing televised Jan. 6 committee hearings could prevent him from getting a fair trial.


----------



## Alli

Whether it’s Mo Brooks or Steve Bannon, no one has the right to dictate how they will be deposed. And nobody demanding a live public hearing should get one.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Alli said:


> Whether it’s Mo Brooks or Steve Bannon, no one has the right to dictate how they will be deposed. And nobody demanding a live public hearing should get one.



Exactly!

I don't imagine the committee wants to give a known troll an open mic to spew at their expense, unless they have something up their sleeves as well.  Which wouldn't mean much, since then the witness would spend the rest of the air time claiming "the fifth", and planning how they will spin their time on air into ways to fleece the sheep.

At best they could offer to put it on tape as they've done the others.


----------



## Macky-Mac

Cmaier said:


> I just don’t see any way Bannon isn’t a stunt; Trump is about to send him the letter revoking his assertion of privilege. There is no way that Trump would revoke privilege unless he expected Brannon to go in there and spout conspiracy theories and tell everyone how big Donald’s hands are.




yup, I'm inclined to agree......Bannon still owes Trump for the pardon


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump wants a world in which white collar and political crime can’t be prosecuted. Everyone is either a dem or a RINO. He has used this playbook over and over, and it’s tiring. I hope judges of all political persuasions see through this BS.


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> Whether it’s Mo Brooks or Steve Bannon, no one has the right to dictate how they will be deposed. And nobody demanding a live public hearing should get one.




On the public hearing aspect,  least of all should the committee cater to that idea from a self-serving publicity-seeker like Bannon.    So far the public hearings have been anything but the circus the MAGA-oriented GOP had hoped to see ensue.    Nice if that record can be maintained.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Maybe Bannon's obvious last minute turnaround isn't a sure thing after all?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546363193982738435/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546363200764985347/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546363211338764288/

At some point this collection of clowns has to realize that ALL of the gov't isn't as stupid as they are, or when they were supposedly a part of it.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546363215075938304/

Requesting a public hearing when you wouldn't cooperate at all previously of course doesn't look suspicious.  Waiting until the last minute to cooperate when you aren't considered trustworthy, and instead turned that lack of cooperation into an act of defiance for publicity & cash doesn't help either.  We'll have to wait to see what comes of this, but I see another hissy fit & rage coming.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546368493519441920/


----------



## GermanSuplex

I just read an article about that. Who knows what Bannon's motives are. He's an opportunistic snake, so I say its 50/50 on whether he were to spill the beans or just pontificate and gaslight in public. He may think he's going to be some far-right "martyr", when in reality he's just your usually scumbag with equally-scumbaggy friends in high places.

Either way, looks like he's toast. The inside of a prison cell will be good for him.


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Maybe Bannon's obvious last minute turnaround isn't a sure thing after all?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546363193982738435/
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546363200764985347/
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546363211338764288/
> 
> At some point this collection of clowns has to realize that ALL of the gov't isn't as stupid as they are, or when they were supposedly a part of it.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546363215075938304/
> 
> Requesting a public hearing when you wouldn't cooperate at all previously of course doesn't look suspicious.  Waiting until the last minute to cooperate when you aren't considered trustworthy, and instead turned that lack of cooperation into an act of defiance for publicity & cash doesn't help either.  We'll have to wait to see what comes of this, but I see another hissy fit & rage coming.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546368493519441920/



Good try by Steve, but it looks like he's out of luck.


----------



## fooferdoggie

SuperMatt said:


> Good try by Steve, but it looks like he's out of luck.
> View attachment 15738



well he did collect  $25 million


----------



## SuperMatt

An account from a Capitol police officer.









						Opinion | I Was Betrayed by President Trump
					

My career as a Capitol policeman was cut short when I was beaten on Jan. 6 trying to defend our democracy.




					www.nytimes.com
				



(paywall removed)



> Other disturbing details I heard at the hearing had to do with Mr. Trump’s apparent disregard for everyone but himself. Before Mr. Trump addressed his supporters on the Ellipse ahead of the insurrection, he was told that those who were armed weren’t being let through security checkpoints and, according to Ms. Hutchinson’s testimony, he said, “I don’t effing care that they have weapons. They’re not here to hurt me.”
> 
> Later, when rioters breached the Capitol, according to Ms. Hutchinson’s testimony, the former White House counsel Pat Cipollone told Mr. Meadows that they had to go see the president about what was happening. Mr. Meadows’s response was that Mr. Trump “doesn’t want to do anything,” Ms. Hutchinson recalled. Mr. Cipollone replied, according to Ms. Hutchinson: “Something needs to be done, or people are going to die, and the blood’s going to be on your effing hands.”
> 
> The nine people who died as a result of that horrific day — including the four officers who died by suicide after the attack — weren’t so lucky. Neither was I. At the West Front of the Capitol, I was attempting to hold a tactical police line along with about 60 members of my team, as we were taught at the academy, to keep the invaders at bay. We were savagely beaten and easily overpowered. I later learned that the mob was estimated to be10,000 strong.


----------



## SuperMatt

Peter Navarro accuses Pence of treason for refusing to participate in the coup attempt.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546655959413624836/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Although this should probably go in the agenda thread, let's remember what the next hearing is also about.  How intimidation has become a part of this party, and how they won't hesitate to turn on their own.  But if who they champion is protested, we need to possibly look into doing something about that.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546640367587659776/



> Ex-WH aide Cassidy Hutchinson is in hiding with security after bombshell testimony against Trump, NYT reports
> 
> 
> Hutchinson's explosive testimony is the most damning yet to emerge from the January 6 hearings, and prompted concern for her safety.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com





Also, because the restaurant that beer bong was dining at, whined in defense of brett, they are catching their own heat online and outside.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546585291816947713/


----------



## SuperMatt

It begins. One of the witnesses is reported to be a former spokesperson for a far-right group (Oath Keepers?)


----------



## SuperMatt

“Donald Trump is a 76-year old man. He is not an impressionable child.” - Liz Cheney


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump is going to rip Pat Cipillone. And maybe Mark Meadows, though Meadows has refused to testify, so that may keep him in Trump's good graces for a while.

While Trump whines about not having "equal representation", the only people who can defend him are hiding, because they would have to lie to defend him, or admit guilt and breaking the law. Its SO PAINFULLY obvious. Those who didn't break the law are speaking to the committee, those who did are stonewalling them. Not a difficult case to figure out.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Whoever is helping the committee put their video and arguments together is great. They're playing sections of Hutchinson and Cipollone making corroborating statements. There goes the "second-hand testimony" BS the conservatives were spewing.

They'll move from that to just discrediting them both, calling them RINOS and liars.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

SuperMatt said:


> Peter Navarro accuses Pence of treason for refusing to participate in the coup attempt.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1546655959413624836/



Guilty of treason *to Trump*? That must be a new legal theory.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

So Trump lost all recounts and court cases, his top campaign advisors and legal counsel informed him that he really did lose the election and yet the pathological narcissist continues to spew his big lie about having really won. That would be bad enough but large numbers of people go along with the fiction, just on the basis of Trump's saying it and despite his long history of compulsive lying and cheating.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Wow, ironic that Rudy and Powell’s comments are so incriminatory. They virtually make fun of the legal counsel of the White House and seemed geeked at undermining the law. Powell saying Cipollone “broke land speed records” kinda shows the severity of their crimes.


----------



## fooferdoggie

mac_in_tosh said:


> Guilty of treason *to Trump*? That must be a new legal theory.



well sounds like a dictators law. we have seen trump kick to the curb anyone that does not have brown on their nose so to him its a real charge.


----------



## SuperMatt

The testimony from a former Oath Keepers’ publicist and a man who was part of the mob that day are worth a watch if you missed it live.

The guy who was part of the mob was asked why he left the Capitol at the time he did. He said it was the tweet from Trump telling him to leave.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Liz Cheney saying Donald Trump is directly involved in witness tampering.

*And the witness who was called by Trump contacted the Justice Department J6 committee directly. That's a slam-dunk case right there. Crimes to cover up crimes. Yeah, Trump is going to federal prison.


----------



## Eric

GermanSuplex said:


> Liz Cheney saying Donald Trump is directly involved in witness tampering.
> 
> *And the witness who was called by Trump contacted the Justice Department directly. That's a slam-dunk case right there. Crimes to cover up crimes. Yeah, Trump is going to federal prison.



That was a pretty big bombshell, Trump simply doesn't give a shit and this DOJ doesn't look like they'll act. Shame.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> That was a pretty big bombshell, Trump simply doesn't give a shit and this DOJ doesn't look like they'll act. Shame.



if they don't Biden will lose the election.


----------



## Eric

fooferdoggie said:


> if they don't Biden will lose the election.



I don't think he'll run again anyway and if he did I don't think he would get reelected anyway, at least at this point.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I had the info wrong, the witness (who hasn't appeared in the hearings yet) contacted their lawyer, the lawyer contacted the J6 committee, and the committee then referred it to the DoJ.

That's after the fact though - point is, Trump is still doing whatever he has to, the law be damned. And his tweets - ahem, "Truths" - are still full of lies about a "stolen and rigged election". He's desperate and I'm sure outraged that Cipollone did the right thing.

I think the DoJ has a very close ear to the pulse of what's going on. While it seems there is already more than enough evidence to act, it makes sense to let the committee do its thing. It just adds more evidence to the pile, and Merrick Garland isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

The political fallout from this - no matter how it shakes out - is huge. If Garland acts on this stuff before the midterms, republicans will say it was the "fear of a red wave". If he acts afterward, it will be to "stop Trump from running again". You will not win with these people, but I say go ahead and do what needs to be done anyway. They won't accept a free and fair election, so at this point, what's the harm?

Do these idiots not realize that if they think this is all perfectly fine and legal, Biden is free to do the same thing? Of course, he never would, and any sane and rational person knows that, but how daft to you have to be to think you can just claim an election was stolen, have no proof, get turned down by courts across the country, have everyone and their mother telling you that you lost and the election is OVER, but just by regurgitating the same crap over and over, it makes everything you do somehow legit? There was a good analogy on MSNBC - if you take a suitcase that looks like yours by mistake at the airport, that doesn't make you a thief. But if people are telling you the suitcase isn't yours, and the name on the suitcase isn't yours, you can't just say "Well, I think its mine" and leave with it. It's clearly theft at that point.

Trump got away with a LOT of criminal, borderline criminal and flat-out disgusting behavior that would have never been tolerated by any elected official in years past. An affair, a love child or your stereotypical grift would have been enough to bury a lot of high-profile or national candidates in the past. Ask John Edwards, Mark Sanford, etc. Trump is the opposite - the more derelict and disgusting his behavior, the more they seem to cheer him on.

Will these empty conservative suits in congress every speak up against this out of control lunatic, or are we just going to have to suffer while he continues breaking the law and spreading bullshit across the country like cancer?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> I don't think he'll run again anyway and if he did I don't think he would get reelected anyway, at least at this point.





For a while the thought of Biden not running again got met with "but who will run then?" which got responded to with the usual cast of characters who wouldn't be appealing to a lot of voters.  As time goes by it seems the answer to that question is becoming more "literally anyone.  I don't care.  I'll vote for them."

The only thing we do know for sure is a majority of voters don't want a Biden vs Trump 2024 election.  They want them both gone.


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> I had the info wrong, the witness (who hasn't appeared in the hearings yet) contacted their lawyer, the lawyer contacted the J6 committee, and the committee then referred it to the DoJ.
> 
> That's after the fact though - point is, Trump is still doing whatever he has to, the law be damned. And his tweets - ahem, "Truths" - are still full of lies about a "stolen and rigged election". He's desperate and I'm sure outraged that Cipollone did the right thing.
> 
> I think the DoJ has a very close ear to the pulse of what's going on. While it seems there is already more than enough evidence to act, it makes sense to let the committee do its thing. It just adds more evidence to the pile, and Merrick Garland isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
> 
> The political fallout from this - no matter how it shakes out - is huge. If Garland acts on this stuff before the midterms, republicans will say it was the "fear of a red wave". If he acts afterward, it will be to "stop Trump from running again". You will not win with these people, but I say go ahead and do what needs to be done anyway. They won't accept a free and fair election, so at this point, what's the harm?
> 
> Do these idiots not realize that if they think this is all perfectly fine and legal, Biden is free to do the same thing? Of course, he never would, and any sane and rational person knows that, but how daft to you have to be to think you can just claim an election was stolen, have no proof, get turned down by courts across the country, have everyone and their mother telling you that you lost and the election is OVER, but just by regurgitating the same crap over and over, it makes everything you do somehow legit?
> 
> Trump got away with a LOT of criminal, borderline criminal and flat-out disgusting behavior that would have never been tolerated by any elected official in years past. An affair, a child out of wedlock, or your stereotypical grift would have been enough to bury a lot of high-profile or national candidates in the past. Ask John Edwards, Mark Sanford, etc. Trump is the opposite - the more derelict and disgusting his behavior, the more they seem to cheer him on.
> 
> Will these empty conservative suits in congress every speak up against this out of control lunatic, or are we just going to have to suffer while he continues breaking the law and spreading bullshit across the country like cancer?



I see the same people that excuse Trump’s behavior saying “if you get rid of the filibuster, the GOP will use that too!”

Um, think about how that "logic" might apply to stuff your OWN guy already did? Imagine if a COMPETENT person pursued a similar tactic.


----------



## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> For a while the thought of Biden not running again got met with "but who will run then?" which got responded to with the usual cast of characters who wouldn't be appealing to a lot of voters.  As time goes by it seems the answer to that question is becoming more "literally anyone.  I don't care.  I'll vote for them."
> 
> The only thing we do know for sure is a majority of voters don't want a Biden vs Trump 2024 election.  They want them both gone.



A Newsom v DeSantis matchup would be pretty epic I think.


----------



## GermanSuplex

It's just common sense. If the sitting president who loses an election can just say "It was stolen, I'm not leaving", invite all sorts of lunatic ambulance chaser lawyers over to plot a path forward, try to install a nobody as AG, call secretaries of state to pressure them to throw out or find votes, etc.... then what?

This isn't solely about Trump. Yeah, he's the gigantic peckerhead who's stirred up all this shit, but if its ok for him, its ok for anyone else. Either this is unacceptable and criminal behavior that shouldn't and won't ever be tolerated again, or the elections are just a façade and whoever can play the game of chess best gets to stay in power.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> For a while the thought of Biden not running again got met with "but who will run then?" which got responded to with the usual cast of characters who wouldn't be appealing to a lot of voters.  As time goes by it seems the answer to that question is becoming more "literally anyone.  I don't care.  I'll vote for them."
> 
> The only thing we do know for sure is a majority of voters don't want a Biden vs Trump 2024 election.  They want them both gone.



AOC should run. Many Trumpkins picked Trump simply to make liberals’ heads explode. Same motivation might apply to Dems that see AOC on the ticket. The wailing and gnashing of teeth from right-wingers would never end if she won. It would be delightful to see them whine and cry as they begrudgingly enjoyed their newfound universal health care, cheaper electric bills, etc.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> A Newsom v DeSantis matchup would be pretty epic I think.




I would want both men to state upfront, in the primaries before they even face off, that they will accept the results of the election. I'm sure that would be easy for Newsom, not so much for DeSantis. Of course, who knows what bullshit republican state legislators and MAGA cultists who end up in elected office will try come later this year or in 2024. I'm afraid some of the damage has been done when it comes to eroding trust in the electoral process. And so when republicans start taking these extreme measures to obtain their desired outcomes, democrats will (rightly) cry foul. And republicans will point the finger back and say "Aha, I thought our elections were perfectly safe and fine! Now that you've lost, you're making the same claims Trump did!"

And around we go. Now, having said that, I truly don't care, because facts matter. Trump lying about a stolen election doesn't mean that if an election is one day _actually_ stolen, people should be quiet.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> AOC should run. Many Trumpkins picked Trump simply to make liberals’ heads explode. Same motivation might apply to Dems that see AOC on the ticket. The wailing and gnashing of teeth from right-wingers would never end if she won. It would be delightful to see them whine and cry as they begrudgingly enjoyed their newfound universal health care, cheaper electric bills, etc.




To really see some heads explode from anger and confusion, I’d love to see AOC and MTG come together to work on something.  Off the top of my head they can probably agree on elite corruption. 

And if we’re going to be honest, that’s the exact type of collaboration the ruling class fears the most…the polar ends of the spectrum representing the working class working together in common cause.


----------



## Citysnaps

It's a shame the witness didn't take trump's call.


----------



## Cmaier

citypix said:


> It's a shame the witness didn't take trump's call.




smart not to.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Let's not forget that even though Trump won the 2016 election he claimed that he lost the popular vote because millions of people voted illegally. So whenever he loses anything it's because of fraud. Whenever he's investigated it's a witch hunt. Whenever someone in his inner circle says anything bad about him he claims to not really know the person.


----------



## Joe

They’re not gonna do anything to him.


----------



## Yoused

Joe said:


> They’re not gonna do anything to him.




Remember when Ethan Couch, drunk off his ass, ran his pickup into several people by the roadside, killing four of them? Who got alcohol rehab because his family was influential, weathy and white? Some people face no consequences for their stupidity because they were born lucky. CFEFWSG will never really be held to account – too many people are afraid of him.


----------



## Runs For Fun

SuperMatt said:


> “Donald Trump is a 76-year old man. He is not an impressionable child.” - Liz Cheney



I laughed when I head that. Brutal


----------



## sgtaylor5

Yoused said:


> Remember when Ethan Couch, drunk off his ass, ran his pickup into several people by the roadside, killing four of them? Who got alcohol rehab because his family was influential, weathy and white? Some people face no consequences for their stupidity because they were born lucky. CFEFWSG will never really be held to account – too many people are afraid of him.



not going to argue with you here, but I would wish he WOULD come to account, and the sooner the better.


----------



## Yoused

sgtaylor5 said:


> not going to argue with you here, but I would wish he WOULD come to account, and the sooner the better.




The American Brahmin must be extremely cautious how the treat others of their caste. If the powerful become vulnerable to accountability, each of them will live with a sense of unease that they might face prosecution for things they have done. The people in the streets might struggle to comprehend actions which can seem to them unsavory, callous, even vile, so they should only have access to information that does not foment unrest, and other Brahmin must only be punished for the most obvious and unforgivabe of transgressions, to preserve the proper order.

Hence, if Individual-ONE faces prosecution for actions that might not be so far beyond the pale for Brahmin, it could erode safety for the caste in general and possible threaten the stability of the entire system.

This is reality. As egalitarian as America is portrayed to be, in truth it is almost as stratified as a feudal realm, with an ever so slightly more dynamic order that can occasionally see people cross caste boundaries. The Brahmin feel compelled to maintain the integrity of the caste boundaries as much as possible because, well, they are Brahmin, that is what they do.


----------



## Citysnaps

SuperMatt said:


> “Donald Trump is a 76-year old man. He is not an impressionable child.” - Liz Cheney




He's both.   Kind of like a Certs being a breath mint AND a candy mint. It's two mints in one.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Just saw a Rolling Stone article that says Meadows may be the new fall guy. Once the indictments start coming from the DoJ, you can bet Trump will just push it off onto all of his subordinates, with Eastman, Clark and now Meadows probably being the big three to take the fall for Trump. It's never Trump's fault, remember. And while he shouldn't go unscathed, those folks absolutely should have to take a hit for being unable and unwilling to do the right thing and put their foot down. Eastman was nobody, an outside lawyer, so his ass is grass. But Meadows and Clark worked in government, and abuse of office is even worse.









						Exclusive: Trump's Lawyers Think Mark Meadows Is Going Down
					

The Jan. 6 Committee is probing the former chief of staff’s finances, Rolling Stone has learned, adding to a long list of legal headaches




					www.rollingstone.com


----------



## Citysnaps

Cmaier said:


> smart not to.




Seems that could be kind of squishy for trump.

That person (being an upcoming Committee witness), so far, is only known to the Committee.  trump and no one else knows who it is.

It seems trump could weasel and say he called for a variety of innocent reasons; such as, he's "writing" a book and needs some quotes/information, wants to play a round of golf, catch up and exchange addresses, have lunch, whatever. Feels like a potential juror could believe that's reasonable doubt since the person who received but did not pick and listen to the the call, has no knowledge of what that conversation would have been about.

If instead the unknown witness picked up that call and actually listened to trump's potential pitch to not say anything negative about trump to the Committee, then that witness could testify to the Committee under oath about the actual pitch.

Your thoughts?


----------



## Cmaier

citypix said:


> Seems that could be kind of squishy for trump.
> 
> That person (being an upcoming Committee witness), so far, is only known to the Committee.  trump and no one else knows who it is.
> 
> It seems trump could weasel and say he called for a variety of innocent reasons; such as, he's "writing" a book and needs some quotes/information, wants to play a round of golf, catch up and exchange addresses, have lunch, whatever. Feels like a potential juror could believe that's reasonable doubt since the person who received but did not pick and listen to the the call, has no knowledge of what that conversation would have been about.
> 
> If instead the unknown witness picked up that call and actually listened to trump's potential pitch to not say anything negative about trump to the Committee, then that witness could testify to the Committee under oath about the actual pitch.
> 
> Your thoughts?




In my mind there’s no way to charge him with anything criminal here unless there are facts we don’t know.  He could actually have been calling to catch up. He may not have known it was a witness. The few scant facts we were given aren’t as nefarious on their face as people are making out.  (Look, I know he was probably trying to tamper with a witness, but it can’t be proven unless there is much more happening that we don’t know about).

But from the witnesses’ perspective, the right thing to do was to avoid the call and inform the authorities.  You don’t want to be in a situation where you’ve been somehow compromised by taking the call.


----------



## SuperMatt

Cmaier said:


> In my mind there’s no way to charge him with anything criminal here unless there are facts we don’t know.  He could actually have been calling to catch up. He may not have known it was a witness. The few scant facts we were given aren’t as nefarious on their face as people are making out.  (Look, I know he was probably trying to tamper with a witness, but it can’t be proven unless there is much more happening that we don’t know about).
> 
> But from the witnesses’ perspective, the right thing to do was to avoid the call and inform the authorities.  You don’t want to be in a situation where you’ve been somehow compromised by taking the call.



I think Cheney’s statement was a warning to Trump more than an indictment of him.


----------



## Runs For Fun

I really hope Trump ends up in prison but the cynic in me says nothing will happen. People are saying imprisoning Trump would be detrimental to the country. _M a y b e._ But it would be far, far worse to let him get away with this shit. That would just allow someone even worse to eventually come along. I really hope the DoJ does something with all of this evidence and doesn't just sit on their ass.


----------



## SuperMatt

There were plenty of attention-grabbing moments yesterday. As for damning evidence, the impromptu march to the Capitol was NOT spur-of-the-moment. It was planned... so I looked for more detail online...



> Here's a January 4 text from Amy Kremer to Mike Lindell, the Pillow weirdo, telling him there will be a march on the Capitol after the rally on the Ellipse.
> 
> "This stays only between us," she cautions, adding that "It can also not get out about the march because I will be in trouble with the national park service and all the agencies but POTUS is going to just call for it 'unexpectedly.'"




This march to the Capitol did not have a permit, and was not “impromptu” at all. It was planned in advance with the President’s knowledge (and likely at his direction). Another march scheduled for Jan 22 was moved to Jan 6 to coincide with it.

Many members of Congress knew about it:



> Members of Congress -- including GOP Reps. Mo Brooks, Brian Babin, Andy Biggs, Matt Gaetz, Louie Gohmert, Paul Gosar, Andy Harris, Jody Hice, Jim Jordan, Scott Perry, and Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia -- discussed the planned march on the Capitol after the rally during a December 21 meeting at the White House with Mark Meadows, Rudy Giuliani, and Mike Pence. They all knew their armed supporters were descending on DC. That's why GOP Rep. Debbie Lesko was freaking out in a closed-door caucus meeting on January 5 about "Trump supporters, who actually believe that we are going to overturn the election. And when that doesn't happen... they are going to go nuts." Not that she bothered to alert the Capitol Police about her concerns.




More detailed coverage here (quotes above are from this site):









						Jan. 6 Hearing Recap: Trump Plans 'Unexpected' March On Capitol After Summoning Mob To DC
					

How the hell did every Proud Boy in DC know about the 'unexpected' march before Trump even announced it?




					www.wonkette.com


----------



## Runs For Fun

SuperMatt said:


> This march to the Capitol did not have a permit, and was not “impromptu” at all. It was planned in advance with the President’s knowledge (and likely at his direction).



Absolutely. I was surprised I had never heard of the site wildprotest.com when they mentioned it. There's an archive of it here. Nothing impromptu about this.


----------



## Citysnaps

Runs For Fun said:


> I really hope Trump ends up in prison but the cynic in me says nothing will happen. People are saying imprisoning Trump would be detrimental to the country. _M a y b e._ But it would be far, far worse to let him get away with this shit. That would just allow someone even worse to eventually come along. I really hope the DoJ does something with all of this evidence and doesn't just sit on their ass.




I'm optimistic.  Garland strikes me as one who is very methodical, determined, and patient. And working out of the limelight.

The country needs an indictment and conviction to properly move forward. And that goes for others, including those in Congress,  who were complicit.


----------



## Yoused

Saw this tweetcapture posted elsewhere and a certain irony struck me,





Apparently Individual-ONE felt that a Constitutional crisis was the right course – yet he appointed 3 Originalists to SCotUS, who treat the Constitution as gospel, at least in terms of what they think it _should_ mean. This is hurting my head.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Yoused said:


> Saw this tweetcapture posted elsewhere and a certain irony struck me,
> 
> View attachment 15814​
> Apparently Individual-ONE felt that a Constitutional crisis was the right course – yet he appointed 3 Originalists to SCotUS, who treat the Constitution as gospel, at least in terms of what they think it _should_ mean. This is hurting my head.





I long for the days when a constitutional crisis was something that only happened when you went to the bathroom after eating Taco Bell.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Yoused said:


> Saw this tweetcapture posted elsewhere and a certain irony struck me,
> 
> View attachment 15814​
> Apparently Individual-ONE felt that a Constitutional crisis was the right course – yet he appointed 3 Originalists to SCotUS, who treat the Constitution as gospel, at least in terms of what they think it _should_ mean. This is hurting my head.




Geraldo is also trying to pass the blame off of Trump and onto his cronies. Yeah, its not the Dons fault, if only those capos and foot soldiers hadn't influenced him.

Also, Geraldo is full of shit if he ever believed anything Trump said in the first place. Who couldn't see this coming? Maher said for years he wouldn't just leave peacefully and would try to stay in power. He rehashed his BS "stolen election" three times before January 6 even happened - during the 2016 Iowa caucus, the 2016 popular vote, then began planting his seeds of doubt about 2020 in the spring of that year, railing against mail-in-voting, drop boxes and saying that the only way he'd lose was if there was massive fraud. As if fraud is only perpetrated by democrats or something?

Of course, had he been projected to win on election night, he would have been doing his victory lap before his win was even cemented, and you wouldn't have heard a single word about fraud from that point on. Unless he lost the popular vote again, then I'm sure he just repeat his 2016 claims. The guy is as predictable as he is fat and stupid.


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1547304977005150209/


----------



## Yoused

I saw this line in a story about what could Individual-ONE be charged with

(The ShitGibbon)* has repeatedly denied doing anything illegal in connection with the Jan. 6 events.*​
which got me to wondering. If you do a thing that might not be technically illegal but has really bad fallout, is there a way that TPTB can nail your softparts to the wall?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump is committing crimes as we speak. Immediately after a hearing in which Liz Cheney said they know people are contacting witnesses and not to do it, he personally tried to call a white house staffer who is working with the committee. He simply thinks laws and rules do not apply to him, and thus far, his congressional allies and the DoJ have not disputed that. I think Garland is cooking up something behind the scenes, but who really knows.

Trump will continue to obstruct and break as many laws as he feels necessary until he sees some sort of damage or accountability.


----------



## Eric

Holy crap    If the DOJ doesn't get involved at this point I would ask what TF their purpose is.









						Secret Service Deleted Jan. 6 Text Messages After Oversight Officials Requested Them
					

A letter given to the January 6 committee says the erasure took place shortly after oversight officials requested the agency’s electronic communications.




					theintercept.com
				






> A top Secret Service official allegedly involved in the attempt to spirit away Pence on January 6 remains in a leadership position at the agency. Tony Ornato, a Secret Service agent whom Trump made the unprecedented decision to appoint as his deputy White House Chief of Staff, reportedly informed Pence’s national security advisor, Keith Kellogg, on January 6 that agents would relocate the Vice President to Joint Base Andrews. “You can’t do that, Tony,” Kellogg reportedly told Ornato. “Leave him where he’s at. He’s got a job to do. I know you guys too well. You’ll fly him to Alaska if you have a chance. Don’t do it.” (Ornato has denied the account.)


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Holy crap    If the DOJ doesn't get involved at this point I would ask what TF their purpose is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secret Service Deleted Jan. 6 Text Messages After Oversight Officials Requested Them
> 
> 
> A letter given to the January 6 committee says the erasure took place shortly after oversight officials requested the agency’s electronic communications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theintercept.com




Weirdly enough, this happens ALL the time. I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve seen “my hard drive crashed” or “the device was replaced”


----------



## GermanSuplex

Interesting. Still haven’t disputed Hutchinson’s testimony under oath, but managed to delete critical text messages.

Nothing to see folks, what we should be focusing on instead of all this nonsense are Hunter Biden and Joe Biden’s ties to communist China!


----------



## Runs For Fun

House GOP plots investigative revenge on January 6 panel
					

House Republicans are plotting revenge on the select committee investigating the January 6, 2021, insurrection, as the GOP weighs a broader effort to re-litigate some of Donald Trump's biggest election grievances if it recaptures the House majority.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## fooferdoggie

Runs For Fun said:


> House GOP plots investigative revenge on January 6 panel
> 
> 
> House Republicans are plotting revenge on the select committee investigating the January 6, 2021, insurrection, as the GOP weighs a broader effort to re-litigate some of Donald Trump's biggest election grievances if it recaptures the House majority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com



why not in for a penny in for a pound.


----------



## Citysnaps

Some potential good news at the local level.  Sucks to be him!

"Shafer, who has faced inquiries from federal investigators, Georgia prosecutors and the House select committee investigating the January 6, 2021, attack on the US Capitol, acted as a pro-Trump elector in Georgia. He also helped organize the fake slate of electors in the Peach State, which Trump lost by nearly 12,000 votes."

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/15/politics/georgia-gop-chair-election-probe-indictment-da/index.html


----------



## Runs For Fun




----------



## GermanSuplex

Makes a lot of sense as to why Pence didn’t want to leave the scene of the redneck coup attempt.

Malcolm Nance had a good point - the entire line of succession to the president were in jeopardy that day.

It’s interesting; Republican MAGA cultists immediately seized on a report of one of these secret service guys supposedly contradicting Hutchinson’s testimony. Oddly enough, they took THIS second or third hand account at face value while trying to discredit Hutchinson’s testimony - under oath - for the same reason.

Well, I’ve yet to hear anyone discredit her testimony under oath, but we did hear the White House counsel corroborate her testimony. Of course, people like Mark Meadows, Mike Pence, Donald Trump and others could easily clear some of this up if they have vindicating evidence they’d like to share… wonder why they won’t?

So not only have these one or two agents being mentioned NOT debunked anything at all under oath, the secret service is now being eyed because texts from the 5th and 6th just magically, coincidentally, were purposefully deleted? And AFTER they were asked to turn them over?

I seriously want to know what kind of person believes the election was stolen, but also believes these texts went missing by pure coincidence.


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> Makes a lot of sense as to why Pence didn’t want to leave the scene of the redneck coup attempt.
> 
> Malcolm Nance had a good point - the entire line of succession to the president were in jeopardy that day.
> 
> It’s interesting; Republican MAGA cultists immediately seized on a report of one of these secret service guys contradicting her testimony. Oddly enough, they took THIS second or third hand account at face value while trying to discredit Hutchinson’s testimony - under oath - for the same reason.
> 
> Well, I’ve yet to hear anyone discredit her testimony under oath, but we did hear the White House counsel corroborate her testimony. Of course, people like Mark Meadows, Mike Pence, Donald Trump and others could easily clear some of this up if they have vindicating evidence they’d like to share… wonder why they won’t?
> 
> So not only have these one or two agents being mentioned NOT debunked anything at all under oath, the secret service is now being eyes because texts from the 5th and 6th just magically, coincidentally, were purposefully deleted? And AFTER they were asked to turn them over?
> 
> I seriously want to know what kind of person believes the election was stolen, but also believes these texts went missing by pure coincidence.



I remember when there were stories about Trump wanting HIS people in the Secret Service. Well, look at the result of that. Destroying evidence and being so well known for their loyalty to Trump over America that Pence won’t even get in a car with them.

Early 2017, concerns raised:








						Trump Gives His Personal Bodyguard Top Oval Office Job
					

President-elect Donald Trump has given his private security director, Keith Schiller, a job overseeing Oval Office operations.  Schiller, a former New York police detective who has been Trump’s personal bodyguard for the past 17 years, has been tapped to serve as deputy assistant to the...




					www.yahoo.com
				




Late 2020, Biden concerned about loyalists:








						Secret Service changing personnel amid concerns some may be Trump supporters - report
					

Senior officers who previously protected Joe Biden as vice president are expected to be brought back on board




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Runs For Fun

The Secret Service can’t keep their story straight. Shady AF








						Secret Service’s January 6 text messages story has shifted several times, panel is told
					

Explanation for how the messages from 5 and 6 January 2021 were deleted has gone from software upgrades to device replacements




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

It’s maddening, because we all saw what happened. Yeah, facts and evidence are important, and we need it laid out in detail, but this isn’t exactly a big fucking mystery. It’s not a game of who done what and when. We all saw what happened play out over several months.

These people have been given such a long leash that no other average human would be given, in virtually any other country. These people still want Hillary locked up for her email and oppo research, while this gigantic gang of circus freaks broke every ethic and criminal law on the books, and continue to do so to cover up said crimes.

Trump literally tried to call a witness after Liz Cheney said “don’t do it, we’re watching you”.

Lindsey Graham is trying to get out of testifying in Georgia. Meadows, Pence and others are silent. The Justice Department has yet to arrest or indict any of the major players in this (though the raids of Clark and Eastman are good signs). The party of “law and order” need to be taught two big lessons;

Facts matter, and white collar crime is still crime. You don’t get to preach to us about Chicago just because your crimes involve phone calls and abusing your elected office.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1548429325468254213/



> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonpost.com




The part I found interesting, and wondering when we are getting to it since so much focus is on who knew they did something wrong.



> As a mob ransacked the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, Roger Stone, Donald Trump’s longtime political adviser, hurried to pack a suitcase inside his suite at downtown Washington's Willard hotel. Before leaving the city on a private jet, he told an aide he feared prosecution by the incoming attorney general, Merrick Garland. “He is not a friend,” Stone said.


----------



## Alli

Looks like the J6 committee will be getting all those deleted text messages from the USSS on Monday. Can’t wait to find out what’s in those.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Unless they were securely deleted I’m hoping they can get them back.








						January 6 panel examines whether erased Secret Service texts can be revived
					

Sources say committee investigating whether watchdog can use forensic tools to reconstruct messages from 5 and 6 January




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Here’s one of the insane “advisors” Trump called on when deciding how to try and overturn the election:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1164680118079492096/

The FBI asked him to sleep with Maria Butina and spy on her?

 Sure….

Anyway, here is this nut-job’s description of what happened in his Dec 18 2020 meeting in the Oval Office:





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					www.deepcapture.com
				






> The President was there, waiting, and after we walked in the three lawyers joined again. Meadows entered as well. A waiter brought out a bowl of small, bottle-cap sized Swedish meatballs, with share plates. Trump motioned for them to be placed at the small table so that everyone could indulge, but the table was in front of me, for which I was grateful. I actually keep vegetarian from time to time, especially when I travel, but how often does one sit with a President serving meatballs from his grandmother’s recipe? And they were _good_.  For the rest of the meeting there were two and only two people eating meatballs: myself, scarfing them down like popcorn, and occasionally the President, who would get up, walk over to me, and refill a small share plate. Nobody else had any.






> Sidney and Mike began walking the President through things from our perspective. In brief: there was a quick way to resolve this national crisis because he had power to act in ways he was not understanding. Under an Executive Order that he had signed in 2018, and another Executive Order that President Obama had signed in 2015, he could “find” that there was adequate evidence of foreign interference with the election, and while doing so would give him authority to do a number of _big_ things, all he had to do was one _small_ thing: direct a federal force (we suggested US Marshall Service + National Guard) to go to the six counties in question (the Problematic 6), and re-count (on livestream TV) the paper ballots that were held as fail-safe back-up. It would only take a few days. Even more conclusive would be if they imaged the hard-drives and those images could be examined forensically (which would make the project last no more than a week, as we had already cracked the Antrim County machines and knew precisely what to do going forward). In either case, if there was no mischief found, then President Trump would concede the election. But if (as we suspected) evidence of hundreds of thousands of improper votes was found in each of the six counties in question, then he would have a wide variety of options. He might have those six _states_ re-counted. Or he might have 50 states recounted on livestream TV by federal forces, and America would finally have its answer to, “How much election fraud does our nation suffer?” Or he might skip that and have the National Guard re-run the elections in those six states. We pointed out that, it being December 18, if he signed the paperwork we had brought with us, we could have the first stage (recounting the Problematic 6 counties) finished before Christmas. And even if the result was hinky enough it demanded a rerun of the election in those states, it could be done before January 20, so that the January 20 Constitutional deadline would not be disrupted. The more time that he let slide by, the more compressed things would become. If he waited to see what the January 6 outcome was, however, and then decided to follow a plan such as ours, it would engender accusations of “sore-loserism”, so he had to act quickly. The alternative was an election that 47% of Americans doubted, which would not be good for the country.
> 
> “You know Pat,” he said to me (the only people who call me “Pat” are either friends from childhood, or men from a background like my own family’s), “you know…” He caught my eye and gave a little snort of humor. “You know, I could leave here and my life would be really …. fine. I could be with my family, my friends, I could be playing golf …” *We looked at each other and shared a moment as may occur only with CEO’s and other “leaders”*: people think our lives are glamorous, but in many ways they are unpleasant.




What are the chances this guy made it through 7 hours of testimony to the Jan 6 committee and kept his stories straight?









						Former Overstock CEO testifies to Jan. 6 committee for nearly eight hours
					

Former Overstock CEO Patrick Byrne, an ally of former President Donald Trump, testified behind closed doors before the House select committee investigating January 6, 2021, for nearly eight hours on Friday.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## Runs For Fun

WTF
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1549201557006139392/

Read the whole thread. This is not good.


----------



## Eric

Runs For Fun said:


> WTF
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1549201557006139392/
> 
> Read the whole thread. This is not good.



Garland is weak, you can see it and the Democratic party as a whole has become a joke. I hate saying that because I've always been proud of them but their absolute inability and unwillingness to fight has a lot of us losing faith and the tide is shifting against them, the people want their leaders to take a stand, not a back seat.









						It’s time for the Democratic Party’s geriatric leaders to relinquish power
					

New and aspiring Democratic leaders could reframe the issues and energize traditional constituencies and independents.




					thehill.com
				




Right now there is a groundswell and my guess is we'll have to be voted out and slapped around for at least another election cycle or two until we get candidates willing to do what it takes. I've never been more ashamed of my country or my party.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I will keep my fingers crossed on Garland. I understand the policy, even though it sucks. It didn't stop Comey from walking to the podium before a presidential election and possibly costing Clinton the election... but I can understand why they don't want a repeat of that.

However, the part that concerns me is that the committee seems to have more info than the DoJ. You don't have to announce charges or indictments to subpoena people and gather information.

If I don't see movement shortly after the midterms, I'll start worrying.

The thing is, its a no-win situation. If they indict people before the midterms, the republicans will say its a plot to steal the midterms. If they do it after, it will be a plot to taint the 2024 election, or "they fear Donald Trump and will do anything to stop him". Facts don't matter to these people. They are with Donald Trump until the end, no matter what comes out, what happens, etc. And if nothing at all is done, they'll claim victory.

I'm sure Merrick Garland knows this. What he will do remains to be seen, but I can't see all of this leading to nothing.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> It’s time for the Democratic Party’s geriatric leaders to relinquish power
> 
> 
> New and aspiring Democratic leaders could reframe the issues and energize traditional constituencies and independents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right now there is a groundswell and my guess is we'll have to be voted out and slapped around for at least another election cycle or two until we get candidates willing to do what it takes. I've never been more ashamed of my country or my party.




There's a lot of truth here. Republicans don't like folks like AOC and other young progressives for the same reason we don't like people like Gym Jordache, Josh Hawley, etc.

Of course, we are right and they wrong - about almost everything. But that's besides the point. Each party doesn't like outspoken leaders of the other party. They don't like Pelosi, Schumer, etc. either, but they also don't like McConnell and other old-dog establishment figures. That's why they let these far-right loons into office, and have started elevating them. So its time we do the same. Time to start pushing young, smart and very progressive candidates to higher offices and give them more power in congress. They will get things done and not give a feck about what the far-right loons think. They're never happy anyways unless they get criminal celebrities like Walker and Trump into office, or do-nothing crazy cheerleaders like MTG, BoBo and Jordan. It really is time to start fighting fire with fire.

At least then, the next time these muppets try to kill officials and burn down the Capitol, at least they'll sort of have an excuse, even if its a stupid one instead of a lie.


----------



## Runs For Fun

GermanSuplex said:


> The thing is, its a no-win situation. If they indict people before the midterms, the republicans will say its a plot to steal the midterms. If they do it after, it will be a plot to taint the 2024 election, or "they fear Donald Trump and will do anything to stop him". Facts don't matter to these people. They are with Donald Trump until the end, no matter what comes out, what happens, etc. And if nothing at all is done, they'll claim victory.



These people will twist anything to make it look like the libs are out to get them. There's no winning with them. I think everyone needs to ignore them and just do the right thing.


----------



## Alli

The issue is that Dems always follow precedent while Rs change and do whatever the hell they want. I hope Garland understands that. 

Keep in mind that Garland still holds all the cards, so even if the Rs take back everything in November and can the J6 committee, Garland still has his job and will keep moving forward.


----------



## Runs For Fun

So maybe it's not as bad as it sounded. Seems there's some misinterpretation of that memo.

Merrick Garland Memo Nightmare from
      CapitolConsequences


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1549434341322784768/


----------



## ronntaylor

Runs For Fun said:


> So maybe it's not as bad as it sounded. Seems there's some misinterpretation of that memo.
> 
> Merrick Garland Memo Nightmare from
> CapitolConsequences



Similar to the bugaboo with payments to migrants that had their children stolen, raped and otherwise abused: jump the gun, whining and outrage, and then total silence when it shows that that is not the case.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1549434341322784768/




Gee, what a coincidence. I guess its just more proof Trump had the best people, and this is divine intervention, God acting on behalf of the chosen one, the Great Donald Trump.

"But her emails".

How about Ivanka and Kushner's emails, the classified/secret documents taken to Trump's fucking golf course and personal home, and now these "accidentally deleted" text messages. On top of the other couple hundred of debauched and borderline criminal things the Trump administration did in four short years.

I'm sure the MAGA crowd - the same ones who wanted Hillary to be locked up over an email server - are perfectly ok with all of this.


----------



## SuperMatt

shadow puppet said:


> Looks that way.
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1541910389289635841/



Funny we never heard back from these agents. And now we find out they deleted texts from Jan 5 and 6?


----------



## Runs For Fun

Good








						DOJ Says Probe of Trump’s Jan. 6 Role Will Continue If He Declares 2024 Run
					

The Justice Department’s investigation into efforts by Donald Trump and his allies to overturn the 2020 election results won’t be deterred if the former president declares his intention to run again, Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco said.




					www.bloomberg.com
				




Also worth a shot I guess
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1549512498189049857/


----------



## GermanSuplex

SuperMatt said:


> Funny we never heard back from these agents. And now we find out they deleted texts from Jan 5 and 6?




Yeah, a Twitter rumor that they were "prepared to testify". And the MAGA goons were using that tiny piece of unverified info to discredit Hutchinson's. They're too dumb to realize they were using second-hand information to discredit someone else's alleged second-hand information.

I'm sure the select committee would have gladly had them back to testify.

As it turns out, they're just Trump goons. It explains why Biden had to make changes to the detail when he was sworn in, it explains why Pence didn't want to leave the Capitol, and it explains why everyone thus far has corroborated Hutchinson's testimony.


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> Yeah, a Twitter rumor that they were "prepared to testify". And the MAGA goons were using that tiny piece of unverified info to discredit Hutchinson's. They're too dumb to realize they were using second-hand information to discredit someone else's alleged second-hand information.
> 
> I'm sure the select committee would have gladly had them back to testify.
> 
> As it turns out, they're just Trump goons. It explains why Biden had to make changes to the detail when he was sworn in, it explains why Pence didn't want to leave the Capitol, and it explains why everyone thus far has corroborated Hutchinson's testimony.



The reporters who tweeted that nonsense should have known better too. Sure, they wanted a “scoop” but those tweets, which haven’t been backed up by the agents actually showing up, were an example of reporters being used in an attempt to discredit a witness. I haven’t seen these reporters revisit the issue, but perhaps I missed it? If they never follow up or point out that these agents are full of it, then they are true failures in their profession.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Former Trump White House aide who met with January 6 panel attacks witnesses, lawmakers in profane and sexist rant | CNN Politics
					

A former Trump White House aide who met with the January 6 committee earlier this week went on a profane and sexist rant on a livestream after his testimony, where he railed against the lawmakers and attacked other witnesses, according to audio posted to his Telegram.




					www.cnn.com
				




"They're Bolsheviks," Ziegler said in the stream, referring to the far-left communists who led the Soviet Union, "so, they probably do hate the American founders and most White people in general. This is a Bolshevistic anti-White campaign. If you can't see that, your eyes are freaking closed. And so, they see me as a young Christian who they can try to basically scare, right?"

Well, that's one way to look at it, I suppose.  Fascinating.


----------



## Edd

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Former Trump White House aide who met with January 6 panel attacks witnesses, lawmakers in profane and sexist rant | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> A former Trump White House aide who met with the January 6 committee earlier this week went on a profane and sexist rant on a livestream after his testimony, where he railed against the lawmakers and attacked other witnesses, according to audio posted to his Telegram.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "They're Bolsheviks," Ziegler said in the stream, referring to the far-left communists who led the Soviet Union, "so, they probably do hate the American founders and most White people in general. This is a Bolshevistic anti-White campaign. If you can't see that, your eyes are freaking closed. And so, they see me as a young Christian who they can try to basically scare, right?"



What a fucking idiot.


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1549853583708983297/
The July 19th letter




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					january6th.house.gov
				




https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1549826196719935488/


----------



## JayMysteri0

I think what amazes me about all of this, is that after the second impeachment, republicans were like "eh".  R's didn't see a need to look into this, and then deciding we should just move on.  Since then we've learned about fake electors, lying on official documents concerning electors, STILL as of recently still trying to get Wisconsin to overturn the results as of a week ago, thinking crazy lady Powell was appointed ANY position of authority, probably more I've forgotten, and NOW... the Secret Service is roped in as pointed out above.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1549800618038071297/

Dafuk?!

The Secret Service?!






This is literally some of the craziest shit in the history of our country.

And the train shows no sign of slowing down, and republicans were like 'eh'?  Let's move on?


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> I think what amazes me about all of this, is that after the second impeachment, republicans were like "eh".  R's didn't see a need to look into this, and then deciding we should just move on.  Since then we've learned about fake electors, lying on official documents concerning electors, STILL as of recently still trying to get Wisconsin to overturn the results as of a week ago, thinking crazy lady Powell was appointed ANY position of authority, probably more I've forgotten, and NOW... the Secret Service is roped in as pointed out above.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1549800618038071297/
> 
> Dafuk?!
> 
> The Secret Service?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is literally some of the craziest shit in the history of our country.
> 
> And the train shows no sign of slowing down, and republicans were like 'eh'?  Let's move on?



I just listened to a story on the radio discussing the differences in the US and the UK. It focused on the question of why Conservatives didn’t lose their minds when Boris Johnson lost his position, and actually seem fine with moving on. Meanwhile, American conservatives are still all-in on Trump. 

Two major factors were brought up. 

1. Right-wing media in America regularly lies, but there are no widely popular media outlets in the UK that do the same thing(s) that Fox does. 

2. Gerrymandering - most seats in the UK parliament are competitive. The opposite is true in America. In fact, some seats are so safe for one party that the only way to lose the seat is if a more extreme candidate beats you in the primary. 

The UK has its own problems, but it really made me think about how much we could change things if we got rid of gerrymandering and blatantly dishonest right-wing media outlets.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> I just listened to a story on the radio discussing the differences in the US and the UK. It focused on the question of why Conservatives didn’t lose their minds when Boris Johnson lost his position, and actually seem fine with moving on. Meanwhile, American conservatives are still all-in on Trump.
> 
> Two major factors were brought up.
> 
> 1. Right-wing media in America regularly lies, but there are no widely popular media outlets in the UK that do the same thing(s) that Fox does.
> 
> 2. Gerrymandering - most seats in the UK parliament are competitive. The opposite is true in America. In fact, some seats are so safe for one party that the only way to lose the seat is if a more extreme candidate beats you in the primary.
> 
> The UK has its own problems, but it really made me think about how much we could change things if we got rid of gerrymandering and blatantly dishonest right-wing media outlets.




All Republicans have left is outrage porn and sadistic rule. Most of the country is done with their decades long trickle down economics and tax breaks for the rich grift. If we got rid of the rigging that mostly benefits Republicans they’d be toast.

Of course, the other option is to come up with sane conservative economic compromise that benefits most Americans, but that is just a bridge too far. Helping out anybody who isn’t rich is seen as a weakness of Democrats and they can’t have that stink on them.


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550107109416747010/


----------



## JayMysteri0

About right...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550143966904975360/

Who would have thought the last administration would drag the Secret Service's remaining credibility down with them?


----------



## SuperMatt

A summary of Fox News coverage about the deleted Secret Service text messages:


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550221311796039681/


----------



## SuperMatt

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550105983732555781/


----------



## SuperMatt

An alleged insurrectionist was at a sentencing hearing after pleading guilty for his actions on Jan 6. But after hearing testimony from those hurt by him, the judge determined the man’s actions were worse than what he pled guilty to. So the plea is toast I guess? He might have to change his plea or face trial.





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					wapo.st
				



(paywall removed)



> The D.C. police sergeant who suffered injuries from the PVC pipe choked up Thursday as he recounted the bruises from the pipe and the chemical burns from bear spray in his face.
> “I normally don’t get emotional, but today is my first time dealing with it,” he told the judge, his voice wavering. “I normally have a tough exterior.”
> After he battled rioters for hours, the sergeant said he spent time on a heart monitor because his blood pressure and pulse were high enough to risk a heart attack. The sergeant did not give his name in court, only his initials.
> The sergeant said he distinctly remembered that Denney intentionally struck him with a pipe, and that the moment “unfortunately plays over and over in my mind.”
> Denney, in a recent court filing, denied intending to injure the officer and said he was attempting to knock out his pepper-spray device.
> “The pole was headed for my face and not my crowd-control device he tried to take from me earlier on,” the sergeant said in court Thursday. “It’s clear to me he doesn’t understand his actions that day … and he needs some serious self-reflection.”


----------



## SuperMatt

Matthew Pottinger was a Trump administration official from day 1. He is starting by bragging about his accomplishments on behalf of the administration. Seems like somebody who would be loyal to Trump.

Ms. Matthews came along late in the game, starting work for Kayleigh McEnany in the summer of 2020.


----------



## SuperMatt

They have 2 separate confirmations of Trump’s heated argument with the driver in the Presidential SUV.

Also confirmed: Secret Service members have retained defense counsel.


----------



## SuperMatt

Trump refused calls from the Pentagon, but called Senators to encourage them to overturn the election, and also called Rudy Giuliani. And he sent out tweets…

He repeatedly refused calls from his staff to do something about the violence.


----------



## DT

@SuperMatt and my wife (from upstairs via messages ...) are providing me with J6 summaries while I work (sort of) and drink (very much so).

Thanks!


----------



## Cmaier

On the internet right now, a lot of MAGAs (and Russians posing as MAGAs) demonstrating that they don’t know what “hearsay” means.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Someone get me a GIF of wet-lipped pencil-neck chickenshit Josh Hawley running from the same people he saluted.



Cmaier said:


> On the internet right now, a lot of MAGAs (and Russians posing as MAGAs) demonstrating that they don’t know what “hearsay” means.




Look who they worship, I’m surprised their knuckles don’t bleed when they walk.


----------



## SuperMatt

Video of Senator Hawley riling up the mob, but then running away from them. What a turd.

Jared Kushner, when asked if the President had a duty to defend the government “Uh… I think so” What a piece of  that guy is. He got his $2 billion from the Saudis, to make up for when he lost a couple billion of his criminal dad’s money.


----------



## SuperMatt

Secret Service agents asking people to tell their families that they love them, since they worried they might not come home alive. And Trump egged on the crowd and refused to intervene.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Found the GIF of Hawley…


----------



## GermanSuplex

SuperMatt said:


> Video of Senator Hawley riling up the mob, but then running away from them. What a turd.
> 
> Jared Kushner, when asked if the President had a duty to defend the government “Uh… I think so” What a piece of  that guy is. He got his $2 billion from the Saudis, to make up for when he lost a couple billion of his criminal dad’s money.




Seriously, why did America give these entitled pieces of shit a feather in their cap of being at the top of the US Government? Hurts my damn head.


----------



## SuperMatt

They are just reiterating all the people telling Trump to stop the violence, including Don Jr.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Listening to Don Jr. explain his tweet about needing to “go to the mattresses” (to stop the violence), briefly, is also disgusting. “It’s a godfather reference”. How fitting.

Pat Cipollone tripping over his words to not say “everyone wanted the people to leave except Trump”.

This is like watching a kid with chocolate ice cream all over their face, but the dumbass parents pretending they didn’t sneak into the freezer.


----------



## SuperMatt

I guess the House GOP caucus didn’t hear that Secret Service agents are lawyering up:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550277640891895808/

Their entire Twitter feed is so sad and pathetic. “Methinks the lady doth protest too much” would apply to something about 1/10th of the amount of defensive distracting tweets they are putting out.

Not sure what to call the amount of feces they are flinging around.


----------



## DT

Hahaha, even Dan is getting in on it ...


----------



## Cmaier

The Hawley videos (1: pumping his fist to rile up the crowd; 2: running for his life from the crowd) were the best.


----------



## SuperMatt

Jared Kushner was in the shower during the riot? I thought he was working on pardons. Although maybe that’s how you get a pardon from The Donald? Get in the shower with Jared?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Raw footage of Trump struggling to call off the riot. Weak and stupid. Still pushing his dumbass lies.

Also…

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550289932127768577/


----------



## SuperMatt

Congresswoman Luria mocked the Trump officials who whined about everybody in the White House feeling “drained” at 4 or 5pm and taking the rest of the day off by showing the violence at the Capitol in comparison. They also showed Chuck Schumer pushing to resume work ASAP.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Cmaier said:


> The Hawley videos (1: pumping his fist to rile up the crowd; 2: running for his life from the crowd) were the best.




Before:





After:


----------



## Cmaier

GermanSuplex said:


> Before:
> 
> View attachment 16084
> 
> After:
> 
> View attachment 16085



Brave Sir Hawley ran away. 
("No!") 
Bravely ran away away. 
("I didn't!") 
When danger reared it's ugly head, 
He bravely turned his tail and fled. 
("I never!") 
Yes, brave Sir Hawley turned about 
And gallantly he chickened out.


----------



## SuperMatt

Kinzinger is having no trouble calling out names of those still working with Trump AFTER the riot to delay or prevent the counting of votes.


----------



## SuperMatt

Playing videos of Mitch McConnell being anti-Trump in a moment when his spine accidentally stiffened up for about 5 minutes one February day. Kevin McCarthy also lambasted Trump in an old video. I have to say, at least Mitch still has basically nothing good to say about Trump… McCarthy, on the other hand, has completely flipped to kissing Trump’s butt again.


----------



## SuperMatt

I am quite unimpressed by Matthew Pottinger. He thinks he was doing such great work, and seemed to think he couldn’t leave the White House for even a few minutes or else terrorists would get us! Um… the attack on the Capitol wasn’t terrorism? This is a guy who thinks his own  doesn’t stink. It doesn’t seem to occur to him that he just might have gotten his position in the Trump administration because the top choices for such a position didn’t want to work for The Donald.

Just looked him up and his Dad was a Nixon official… and there you have his connection that got him into a government position... oh and he worked with Mike Flynn.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Oh boy. Trump can’t stay on script.


----------



## GermanSuplex

SuperMatt said:


> I am quite unimpressed by Matthew Pottinger. He thinks he was doing such great work, and seemed to think he couldn’t leave the White House for even a few minutes or else terrorists would get us! Um… the attack on the Capitol wasn’t terrorism? This is a guy who thinks his own  doesn’t stink. It doesn’t seem to occur to him that he just might have gotten his position in the Trump administration because the top choices for such a position didn’t want to work for The Donald.




Seems to be a common theme.

OH SHIT, more Trump outtakes. Stupid and weak.


----------



## GermanSuplex

“Yesterday is a hard word for me.”


----------



## Runs For Fun

Dear god that was bad.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Sorry to double post, but watching Trump in a candid camera moment is great. Even under the very serious circumstances, laughing at his sheer stupidity provides a moment of levity.

Dear god what a moron!


----------



## SuperMatt

And there it is: Pottinger praising Richard Nixon on TV. I’m sure Dad is proud.


----------



## GermanSuplex

SuperMatt said:


> And there it is: Pottinger praising Richard Nixon on TV. I’m sure Dad is proud.




It’s common among all these people who worked in the Trump/PT Barnum freak show White House. Nobody stood up and did anything then. Nobody calls Trump a stupid danger, which is what he is. These people all worked under a low-IQ maniac and did nothing. I give them some credit for doing this publicly and all that, but none of them went to authorities, did anything worthwhile in the moment.

Just once I’d like to see someone point their finger in Trump’s face and call him a dumbass. The last seven years have been torture watching half the country and all these congressIonal and political suits treat him like a man who has more than a single-digit IQ. Like someone treating a pet rock like an actual pet.


----------



## SuperMatt

"Potus is very emotional and in a bad place," Mark Meadows texted Gen. Milley.


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> It’s common among all these people who worked in the Trump/PT Barnum freak show White House. Nobody stood up and did anything then. Nobody calls Trump a stupid danger, which is what he is. These people all worked under a low-IQ maniac and did nothing. I give them some credit for doing this publicly and all that, but none of them went to authorities, did anything worthwhile in the moment.
> 
> Just once I’d like to see someone point their finger in Trump’s face and call him a dumbass. The last seven years have been torture watching half the country and all these congressIona and political suits treat him like a man who has more than a single-digit IQ. Like someone treating a pet rock like an actual pet.



This is reputation-washing from those that want to work in a possible future Republican presidential administration.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Mr. “I alone can fix it” didn’t do squat for hours. I don’t know how much clearer they can make it that he wanted this, he caused it, he did nothing to stop it, and he’s actively meddling with this investigation and will not hesitate to do so again.


----------



## Cmaier

GermanSuplex said:


> Mr. “I alone can fix it” didn’t do squat for hours. I don’t know how much clearer they can make it that he wanted this, he caused it, he did nothing to stop it, and he’s actively meddling with this investigation and will not hesitate to do so again.



By ”fix it” he meant definition 7b here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fix


----------



## SuperMatt

Cheney praises the courage of Cassidy Hutchinson while attacking the “50, 60, and 70 year old men” who won’t testify.


----------



## GermanSuplex

SuperMatt said:


> Cheney praises the courage of Cassidy Hutchinson while attacking the “50, 60, and 70 year old men” who won’t testify.




Powerful statement in its truth. Liz Cheney will have the last laugh. She’s made a fan of me, even if I disagree with her politics. As much as I hate conservative policies, I will gladly accept legitimate political losses within a fair, just and truthful system.


----------



## SuperMatt

And that’s a wrap. This may well be the last public hearing about January 6th, 2021.

Looking at these hearings as a whole, it seems like even if they don’t get any indictments from the DoJ, they are trying to make Trump toxic and unable to get enough support to get the GOP nomination in 2024.


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> And that’s a wrap. This may well be the last public hearing about January 6th, 2021.
> 
> Looking at these hearings as a whole, it seems like even if they don’t get any indictments from the DoJ, they are trying to make Trump toxic and unable to get enough support to get the GOP nomination in 2024.



There will definitely be more hearings, starting in the fall. CNN just said the next hearing is in September,.


----------



## SuperMatt

Cmaier said:


> There will definitely be more hearings, starting in the fall. CNN just said the next hearing is in September,.



Thanks - I missed that!


----------



## Runs For Fun

I wonder if we'll see any action from the DoJ before September or if they are going to wait until it's all said and done.


----------



## Runs For Fun

In case anyone missed it
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550305207053127680/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Sometimes I hate Twitter, but sometimes I love it...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550306790780411905/


----------



## JayMysteri0

I know it's been awhile & this isn't the normal thread for it, but does anyone remember the whole "back the blue" crowd & sentiment?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550421407116443648/

Because THAT crowd certainly does not.


----------



## Roller

Apologies if this was already posted elsewhere:









						Inside Trump '25: A radical plan for Trump’s second term
					

Allies want to empower him to purge potentially thousands of civil servants.




					www.axios.com
				




The threat is real, and I don't think it'll go away if Trump doesn't run.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Also let's take a moment and appreciate that josh hawley trending & collectively being referred to as a "bitch" on social networks is a moment.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550298256856547328/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550334164351692800/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550344370766888960/

 Congratulations josh, no one has ever earned that title more.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550289866411634689/


----------



## GermanSuplex

JayMysteri0 said:


> I know it's been awhile & this isn't the normal thread for it, but does anyone remember the whole "back the blue" crowd & sentiment?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550421407116443648/
> 
> Because THAT crowd certainly does not.




AHAHAHAHA!

Look at Tubster, following around a patriot to heckle him, then falling down and crying like a little bitch because he got tapped with a flag pole. These pantywaists get tapped with a pole and act like they've been stabbed in the kidney, but they want to pretend January 6 wasn't that bad.

These people are both dumb as dirt and the biggest damn crybabies I've ever seen.

The stupid woman heckling Fanone isn't much better. I'm sure the Twittersphere will be on her case.


----------



## Huntn

I did not listen last night, to the Thursday night, Jan 6 Committee televised hearing, because I don’t want my hopes up that something substantial, legal might happen to the former POS-In-Chief. This morning I’m listening to the summaries on MSNBC, and hearing again, Trump’s message to his losers to stand down, it‘s one of the most disgusting things I’ve ever listened to, _they stole the election, we won by a landslide, but we can’t play into their hands, go home, I love you. _(Paraphrased).

This is the kind of thing, bold face lies, accusing the other side of doing exactly what you were doing, and not be immediately shut down, and prosecuted, relies on millions of _win_ _at all costs _people, who have broken bad, are selfish, or just plain self servingly  STUPID.

The  state of the United States is dire. We are in deep shit because the Head Criminal, Donald J Trump, has been allowed to remain at large, lounging in one of his resorts, continuing to gather his forces* and spread his poison any way he can, planning for the destruction of the Federal Govt, to burn it down, then rise again as a Phoenix built in his image.

*He maybe fading, but there are others like DeSantis in Florida who appear to be more than willing to carry on in his name.

And  the key to Justice,  The Republican Party found in all 50 States is corrupt and  complicit in his crimes, accomplices refusing to acknowledge or act, pushing back against one of the most destructive political forces ever to arise in the United States, threatening everything we claim our country stands for.

And although I’m accusing Republican politicians, the real culprit is the base of US Citizens who put those politicians in place, have decided that Democracy, Truth, and Justice are no good, if they can’t get their way, such as the sham idea creating a Christian Theocracy as a cover for a fascist movement on the rise in the US. As far as they are concerned, win at all costs is the only destructive rule to be followed. And if the Majority does not counter this threat, then we deserve all the bad things to follow. The country may not survive as we know it.

This Shit is not over.


----------



## SuperMatt

Roller said:


> Apologies if this was already posted elsewhere:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inside Trump '25: A radical plan for Trump’s second term
> 
> 
> Allies want to empower him to purge potentially thousands of civil servants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.axios.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The threat is real, and I don't think it'll go away if Trump doesn't run.



“Team Trump” did a pretty good job of putting in anti-government people from 2017-2020 already. The idea that they’d put even WORSE people into such positions is pretty disturbing.

Perhaps there should be rules that the prior officials need to stay on until replacements get confirmed by the Senate. Most of Trump’s minions were “acting” directors of one kind or another, because the Senate wouldn’t rubber-stamp such obviously incompetent clowns.


----------



## fooferdoggie

SuperMatt said:


> “Team Trump” did a pretty good job of putting in anti-government people from 2017-2020 already. The idea that they’d put even WORSE people into such positions is pretty disturbing.
> 
> Perhaps there should be rules that the prior officials need to stay on until replacements get confirmed by the Senate. Most of Trump’s minions were “acting” directors of one kind or another, because the Senate wouldn’t rubber-stamp such obviously incompetent clowns.



but they did rubber-stamp incompetent  judges go figure.


----------



## Joe

Runs For Fun said:


> In case anyone missed it
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550305207053127680/




That's the alpha male republicans love lmao


----------



## Alli

SuperMatt said:


> Matthew Pottinger was a Trump administration official from day 1. He is starting by bragging about his accomplishments on behalf of the administration. Seems like somebody who would be loyal to Trump.






SuperMatt said:


> I am quite unimpressed by Matthew Pottinger. He thinks he was doing such great work, and seemed to think he couldn’t leave the White House for even a few minutes or else terrorists would get us! Um… the attack on the Capitol wasn’t terrorism? This is a guy who thinks his own  doesn’t stink. It doesn’t seem to occur to him that he just might have gotten his position in the Trump administration because the top choices for such a position didn’t want to work for The Donald.



Pottinger opened by saying what a wonderful president TFG was, and that kinda set the stage. From there on, all he did was talk about himself and how important he was.


Cmaier said:


> On the internet right now, a lot of MAGAs (and Russians posing as MAGAs) demonstrating that they don’t know what “hearsay” means.



That’s because they just learned the word. The originally tweeted it was “heresy.”


----------



## lizkat

I'm trying in vain to imagine any other outgoing president of the United States of America sitting around for three hours just watching a violent mob attempt to sack his own sitting government -- with his own prior encouragement--  which had been tasked with seeing to an orderly and largely ceremonial transfer of power after he had lost a re-election bid.  

Even more shocking than that Trump did just watch the carnage for 187 minutes after his speech of incitement is the fact that he still resisted the entreaties of family, aides, advisors and official counsel to do ANYTHING past just watch TV to see what would happen next.   Oh, and apparently make phone calls to US Senators asking them to help him overturn the election of his duly elected successor, Joe Biden.

Past dereliction of duty and violation of his own oath to defend the Constitution and see to enforecement of our rule of law, Trump made a mockery of American democracy by treating the day of the insurrection as mere reality TV. 

In his inaugural speech he had made reference to being a president of all the people.   Yeah.  Even the left-leaning press gave him kudos for that.  Four years later the mask was off and he was just the whiney little bitch who couldn't even pull off the last episode of his cancelled TV show to his liking.

The outtakes of his reluctant video telling his violent supporters to "go home, I love you" were pretty telling.

 He didn't want to say the election was over.  Everything was crashing down around him at that point, it was clear that law enforcement would restore order in a matter of hours and the joint session of the House and Senate would resume to complete the certification of the election he had lost, challenged and lost again in court, 60 out of 61 times.  Even his family was telling him he had to speak out to quell the violence at the Capitol.

*Yet he would not say to the public in that reluctant video that the election was over.  *

More Americans --and more of the GOP's elected officials, conference or committee leaders, candidates for public office!--  need to get connected to the reality of what happened there.  Too many Trump-era GOP honchos are already on the wrong side of history, and it looks worse and worse that some of them made pro forma speeches condemning the violence immediately after January 6, 2021,  yet subsequently backtracked or have pretended that the whole country developed amnesia after a couple of days. 

What Trump can never gloss over, never take back, is his refusal to attend in person to the transfer of power after a free and fair election.   No shared ride to the Capitol.  No photos on the steps with his successor.   All we're left with in the run-up to that inauguration is Trump two weeks earlier telling a crowd of his supporters "I'll be with you" as he urged them to move on the Capitol... and we know now that he was fully aware that many of that crowd carried weapons.

At the end he would not and did not perform duties of the president of all the people.  He was just an inciter to violent overthrow of the American government.  How is it that so many Americans seem willing to blink that away now in the run-up to midterms,  where candidates endorsed by Trump attempt to gain more seats in the House of Representatives? 

This is not reality TV.  It's real, and an ongoing threat to our democracy even if electoral laws are reformed, so long as the Republican Party refuses to denounce Trump himself as unworthy of carrying its banner.   It's up to conservative voters to discipline the GOP,  and it's not clear yet that enough of them will be willing to do that in November.    

Waiting for the next shoes to drop from the 1/6 Committee and the DoJ investigations.


----------



## SuperMatt

️


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550285186696355840/

When you get to far up your own @-


----------



## GermanSuplex

Do these cretins not realize that if everything Trump did was ok - all predicated on a gigantic, laughable lie - his successors can do it too? God, I know I'm redundant, but damn... its all just painful to watch and accept. WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED?

Remember when people said Obama would try for a third term? I have no idea what bizarre logic led the pre-cult GQP to make that assumption, but it was a joke from the beginning. Hillary conceded the next morning after the election. Trump was in the White House and being aided in his transition - just as every other president has done. That's Trump's problem - its owed to him, but not to anyone else in his mind.

Just imagine if Joe Biden said "we have credible proof that Russia hacked our machines. I'm urging VP Kamala Harris not to certify the results until an audit can be done", and then encouraged a mob to storm the capitol during the certification process. It's hard to imagine Biden or anyone else doing that, because they're sane adults. But if Trump has done the same thing, and gets away with it all, then shouldn't it be perfectly ok for Biden to do the same? Why can't these morons see that?

Trump has exposed everything is a lie with these people. The loudest Trump supporters are overtly racist, whiny crybabies, criminals who don't respect police, who feel a minority who loots a shoe store should be prosecuted, but feel justified when they take the law into their own hands and try to attack police, break into federal property and hunt elected officials. They vote for the worst among them who represent their worst qualities - folks like MTG, Boebert, Jim Jordan, Ted Cruz, Hawley, Gaetz, etc.

The projection is out of this world; use a lie as the basis for committing the same crimes you are accusing others of. Many conservatives have been caught voting illegally to combat non-existent "voter fraud". It's a classic case of someone instigating or faking a struggle with someone for the sole purpose of committing murder, so that you can make the case of "self-defense".

It's totally transparent and obvious, but unfortunately, it is a cult. It truly is. It's like getting fired at work for jamming the copier, but your co-worker who drinks on the job and goes and kills three pedestrians while driving intoxicated gets a verbal reprimand, then a raise and promotion.

You have conservatives getting on the stand... Rusty Bowers had a daughter who was receiving death threats while dying, and he would still vote for this lunatic?

I don't know what its going to take to get us back to reality, but the only silver lining I can see is that things are already so screwed up, can indicting, convicting and imprisoning Donald Trump really make things worse? Americans are generally stupid and have a short memory, I'd imagine there would be a short period of outrage, then maybe Pelosi could get caught using campaign funds to get her hair done and they would quickly forget about Trump and move to wanting to imprison Pelosi. We need to prosecute, imprison and move on.

All of these folks may be presumed innocent until proven guilty, but its the same as when they catch a mass-shooter on the scene. Those people are "presumed innocent" too. So right now, we have a bunch of Trump operatives who are guilty as sin walking around with no punishment as of yet. We either live in a country where this is permissible behavior, or it isn't.

It's a shame Congress didn't act when they had the chance to impeach and convict Trump in the senate. Then, the DoJ could let him rattle off his BS to his cult from Mar-A-Lago, punish and indict all the nobody attention-seekers like Bannon and Stone, run a thorough and complete investigation, put out a report, and let the country get back to something resembling normalcy.

It's hard to tell if trust in our elections has been permanently eroded or not, but again, its a very simple question I would like to ask almost all GOP voters/cultists - is this acceptable behavior or not? Can a president declare victory, provide no evidence, lose every legal avenue, have his entire cabinet telling him to accept defeat and move on, but refuse to do so, and incite violence? If it is, we're in for a nasty future.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Trump not handling things well 
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550335450077962240/


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550464912836763649/


----------



## lizkat

Runs For Fun said:


> Trump not handling things well
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550335450077962240/




Wondering if Melania still has that Zara jacket that says on the back "I Really Don't Care Do U?" 

Now's a good time for her to take it out and sling it somewhere in sight of The Don as he posts his online whines.


----------



## SuperMatt

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550464912836763649/



The replies to that are hilarious. He should have known better than to post that; it’s just leading to more ridicule.


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550571384614649858/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550571384614649858/




We maybe shouldn’t read too much into this. I typically lawyer up before ordering from a restaurant menu, merge onto the freeway, or separate my recycling. There’s all kinds of reasons to retain legal counsel.


----------



## Cmaier

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> We maybe shouldn’t read too much into this. I typically lawyer up before ordering from a restaurant menu, merge onto the freeway, or separate my recycling. There’s all kinds of reasons to retain legal counsel.



I endorse hiring lawyers for everything.


----------



## SuperMatt

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550571384614649858/



They flip-flopped from “we will testify under oath” to pleading the 5th awfully quick.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> I endorse hiring lawyers for everything.




I agree.  I just hired one to confirm its ok for me to post this response.


----------



## Cmaier

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I agree.  I just hired one to confirm its ok for me to post this response.



I’m available if anyone wants to hire me to read your posts.


----------



## ronntaylor

Cmaier said:


> I’m available if anyone wants to hire me to read your posts.



If hire = pro bono


----------



## Hrafn

ronntaylor said:


> If hire = pro bono



At that rate, I'm in!


----------



## GermanSuplex

The sheer corruption of the entire Trump administration is flabbergasting. It just keeps coming. From the secret service, the financial wheeling and dealing of Trump’s family, shitting on the divide between political and government (like Pompeo appearing for the RNC on a political trip and having the actual event at the White House), COVID mishandling, Barr trying to get ahead of the Mueller report, the installing of unqualified Trump cronies as “acting” department heads, secret meetings with people like the Pillow Guy and Bannon, pressuring lawmakers in states to throw out votes, the constant lying, the racism, the petulant name-calling, the pardons, declassifying information to the Russians in the Oval Office, “losing” text messages, inciting people to stop the certification by any means possible, even if it meant having your own VP killed, giving shoutouts to white supremacist groups, taking classified documents home, using private emails for official government business, withholding aide while pressuring foreign officials to investigate your political enemies, dragging totally innocent civilians performing civic duties into the crosshairs of your psycho supporters, witness tampering…

Am I missing a few dozen things?

It’s exasperating. Seven years of this crap and it’s ongoing.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Well, this explains-

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550497054237118465/

Of all the defenses so far, I don't believe anyone else tried the "stupid" defense aka "I didn't know what was going on", and for probably good reason.

But Mrs. 45 is going there anyways.



> We're Not Stupid: Twitter Users Agog Melania Trump Says She Was Clueless On Jan. 6
> 
> 
> Critics just aren't buying her claim that she was too busy taking White House inventory to notice her husband's supporters were storming the Capitol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com






> The former first lady offered the explanation nearly 19 months after the U.S. Capitol attack and following the recent release of an alleged text message exchange with Stephanie Grisham, her former chief of staff. As the attack was underway, Grisham asked Trump to issue a tweet denouncing the violence. Melanie Trump replied, “no.” Grisham also addressed the text message in her book, “I’ll Take Your Questions Now,” published in September 2021.
> 
> “I can dispute every single thing that she said [on Thursday] with emails, with texts,” Grisham told CNN on Thursday.




Wow.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550451675814678529/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

JayMysteri0 said:


> Well, this explains-
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550497054237118465/
> 
> Of all the defenses so far, I don't believe anyone else tried the "stupid" defense aka "I didn't know what was going on", and for probably good reason.
> 
> But Mrs. 45 is going there anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550451675814678529/




in her defense she did marry Trump and that requires somebody to be cartoonishly aloof at minimum.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> in her defense she did marry Trump and that requires somebody to be cartoonishly aloof at minimum.



"Cartoonishly aloof"?

No.

Not that's not how I would describe her at all.  Quite the opposite.  Someone well aware of the loathsomeness of the individual she decided to become his 3rd wife, after he cheated on the other ones.  Was quite alright with that loathsomeness, and perhaps may even share in. 






At times I tend to think of her like mnuchins, if I am being generous they are "cartoonishly evil", then fake being appalled being see that way.






Those are two images I can't imagine would ever be associated to any other administration ever, for so clearly demonstrating their priorities out loud.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Perhaps the finest description of Hawley ( and perhaps fled cruz as well ) I've ever seen.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550622387833831425/


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Well, this explains-
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550497054237118465/
> 
> Of all the defenses so far, I don't believe anyone else tried the "stupid" defense aka "I didn't know what was going on", and for probably good reason.
> 
> But Mrs. 45 is going there anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550451675814678529/



And Jared Kushner didn’t know what was happening because he was working on pardons in the shower…


----------



## Huntn

Runs For Fun said:


> Trump not handling things well
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550335450077962240/



It does not concern me what The Head Turd says, as much as what all the little turds back home who listen and think the country is going to hell because Evil has not prevailed so far, although they are too selfish, broken bad, or STUPUD to recognize it as such.  But it ain’t over yet.

In a back handed way Trump is responsible for enlightening the rest of us on just how shakey the ground is we stand upon as a Nation.


----------



## shadow puppet

They watched.  This video makes me sick to this day.


----------



## Renzatic

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I agree.  I just hired one to confirm its ok for me to post this response.




I can neither confirm nor deny any enjoyment I may or may not have gleamed from this post.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Exactly 
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550935531130961922/


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550897046344851457/


----------



## GermanSuplex

We should just replace Hawley’s name with an emoji… ‍

I will never be able to hear Josh Hawley’s name in reference to him “_running_ in a senate _race_” the same way again. He’s going to provide years of online comedy. At first, I thought that picture of him looking like a defiant pencil-necked geek with his fist raised would be the defining moment of his shitty career. Nope, I’m glad to say it will be footage of him running from the same people he incited.

He doesn’t need to “back down” or “run away”. One he’s already done, and the other doesn’t matter. He’s free to be as big of a piece of shit as he would like to be. Ari Melber ripped him a good one last night.


----------



## Citysnaps




----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

JayMysteri0 said:


> "Cartoonishly aloof"?
> 
> No.
> 
> Not that's not how I would describe her at all.  Quite the opposite.  Someone well aware of the loathsomeness of the individual she decided to become his 3rd wife, after he cheated on the other ones.  Was quite alright with that loathsomeness, and perhaps may even share in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At times I tend to think of her like mnuchins, if I am being generous they are "cartoonishly evil", then fake being appalled being see that way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those are two images I can't imagine would ever be associated to any other administration ever, for so clearly demonstrating their priorities out loud.




I stand by my original statement.  If she wasn't married to Trump then she probably wouldn't be doing these stunts.  She'd be perfectly content being a silent trophy wife.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I stand by my original statement.  If she wasn't married to Trump then she probably wouldn't be doing these stunts.  She'd be perfectly content being a silent trophy wife.



I don’t understand this. She chose to marry Trump. Even before his political aspirations, it was no secret the kind of man he was. If she wanted a quiet life, she wouldn’t have chosen a guy like him, constantly in the spotlight, and seldom for anything good.


----------



## fooferdoggie

she has said she married him for the money. she is just a live in employee.


----------



## GermanSuplex

citypix said:


> View attachment 16155




This should be an annual event. Would be a great yearly protest/campaign event.


----------



## Eric

I thought Fox News said nobody was interested, I mean they're usually on the up and up.









						Nielsen says 17.7 million watched Thursday's Jan. 6 hearing
					

An estimated 17.7 million people watched Thursday's second prime-time hearing of the House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol.




					www.clickorlando.com


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> I thought Fox News said nobody was interested, I mean they're usually on the up and up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nielsen says 17.7 million watched Thursday's Jan. 6 hearing
> 
> 
> An estimated 17.7 million people watched Thursday's second prime-time hearing of the House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.clickorlando.com



Nothing to see here.


----------



## Cmaier

To be clear, the secret service agents who were “prepared to testify under oath” that what Cassidy Hutchison said about being told that Trump physically attacked his driver was not true are refusing to testify under oath.









						Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger Say Secret Service Agents Won’t Testify About Jan. 6 Under Oath — The Daily Beast
					

The two Republicans went on separate Sunday morning news shows, and clarified that agents have been unwilling to cooperate so far with the Jan. 6 committee.




					apple.news


----------



## SuperMatt

Cmaier said:


> To be clear, the secret service agents who were “prepared to testify under oath” that what Cassidy Hutchison said about being told that Trump physically attacked his driver was not true are refusing to testify under oath.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger Say Secret Service Agents Won’t Testify About Jan. 6 Under Oath — The Daily Beast
> 
> 
> The two Republicans went on separate Sunday morning news shows, and clarified that agents have been unwilling to cooperate so far with the Jan. 6 committee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



Impossible! My worldview is shattered!


----------



## Joe

SuperMatt said:


> And Jared Kushner didn’t know what was happening because he was working on pardons in the shower…




We need Elle Woods to prove he wasn’t in the shower.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Ouch!



> Murdoch's New York Post publishes scathing critique of Donald Trump
> 
> 
> Two of Donald Trump's favorite newspapers — controlled by his media ally Rupert Murdoch — deem Trump "unworthy" and a failure after hearings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com





> New York (CNN)One of Donald Trump's favorite newspapers — controlled by his media ally Rupert Murdoch — says Trump is "unworthy to be this country's chief executive again."
> 
> Those words, in this weekend's New York Post, may be the tabloid's strongest critique of Trump yet.
> 
> It was published online on Friday evening, around the same time another Murdoch publication, the Wall Street Journal, also published an editorial harshly critiquing the former president.
> 
> The Journal called him "The President Who Stood Still on Jan. 6" and praised Vice President Mike Pence. "Character is revealed in a crisis, and Mr. Pence passed his Jan. 6 trial. Mr. Trump utterly failed his," the Journal editorial stated.
> 
> Both newspapers have been noticeably more critical of Trump than Murdoch's biggest megaphone of all, the Fox News Channel, though close viewers have also picked up on some signs that Fox might be souring on Trump.
> 
> The right-wing network does not show his rallies any longer, for example. Potential 2024 presidential candidate Ron DeSantis, the Florida governor, was a featured guest on Fox while Trump held a rally on Friday night.
> 
> Both the Post and Journal have conservative editorial boards that are thought to reflect Murdoch's views. Murdoch said last fall that conservatives must play an active role in the American political debate, "but that will not happen if President Trump stays focused on the past."
> 
> If Murdoch was trying to give Trump advice, it didn't work. Trump has continued to spread lies about the 2020 election and undermine the House's investigation into the January 6 insurrection.


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Ouch!



I think loyalty to Fox News is stronger than the Trump loyalty. When Fox “called” the 2020 race for Biden, I recall right-wingers saying they were going to boycott. That clearly never happened.

Pretty pathetic when you consider the rubes have so far completely ignored all of Trump’s criminal behavior exposed by the Jan 6 commission, but might flip on Trump because their favorite TV channel doesn’t support him anymore.


----------



## ronntaylor

JayMysteri0 said:


> Ouch!



DeSatan is the choice for the oligarchs. He's a smarter, more competent version of the Orange Turd (admittedly a very, very low bar to clear).


----------



## Huntn

GermanSuplex said:


> We should just replace Hawley’s name with an emoji… ‍
> 
> I will never be able to hear Josh Hawley’s name in reference to him “_running_ in a senate _race_” the same way again. He’s going to provide years of online comedy. At first, I thought that picture of him looking like a defiant pencil-necked geek with his fist raised would be the defining moment of his shitty career. Nope, I’m glad to say it will be footage of him running from the same people he incited.
> 
> He doesn’t need to “back down” or “run away”. One he’s already done, and the other doesn’t matter. He’s free to be as big of a piece of shit as he would like to be. Ari Melber ripped him a good one last night.



There was an outstanding cartoon with a chicken running with it’s fist in the air, but I could not find it.


----------



## shadow puppet

Huntn said:


> There was an outstanding cartoon with a chicken running with it’s fist in the air, but I could not find it.



This one?


----------



## Joe

Huntn said:


> There was an outstanding cartoon with a chicken running with it’s fist in the air, but I could not find it.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I wonder if any Republican politician behind the scenes has told Trump some iteration of go fuck yourself over this nonsense.  He'd say such a thing to them without hesitation.  When attacking Democrats they've flushed all decorum down the toilet, but it seems when dealing with this man baby it's all "I understand, Mr. President."  It's not even dying on a hill.   It's dying in an extinction-level crater.


----------



## SuperMatt

Trump was supposed to deliver a speech condemning the Jan 6 violence. He crossed most of it out. He wanted the violence. Those who support him, support the violent overthrow of America, period.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1551568001836670976/


----------



## sgtaylor5

https://www.axios.com/2022/07/22/trump-2025-radical-plan-second-term

https://www.axios.com/2022/07/23/donald-trump-news-schedule-f-executive-order

Two very long articles discussing Trump's plan to use Schedule F executive order to gut the federal bureaucracy.

It's much much worse even if Trump runs and loses. The machinery is still there to make it work no matter who gets in office at some point. It sure feels like the Trumplicans are trying to force us into a Civil War no matter what we want. And they've been wanting a Civil War ever since Gingrich in 1995 destroyed the Congressional norms.


----------



## rdrr

sgtaylor5 said:


> https://www.axios.com/2022/07/22/trump-2025-radical-plan-second-term
> 
> https://www.axios.com/2022/07/23/donald-trump-news-schedule-f-executive-order
> 
> Two very long articles discussing Trump's plan to use Schedule F executive order to gut the federal bureaucracy.
> 
> It's much much worse even if Trump runs and loses. The machinery is still there to make it work no matter who gets in office at some point. It sure feels like the Trumplicans are trying to force us into a Civil War no matter what we want. And they've been wanting a Civil War ever since Gingrich in 1995 destroyed the Congressional norms.



This Schedule F plan is the end of Democracy, and needs its own thread.


----------



## Huntn

Joe said:


> View attachment 16184



Previous post is the one I saw.


----------



## fooferdoggie

trump fried a lot of departments and put in lackeys that used those departments to make money.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Republicans need to think about this… do they want to live in a country where the moment they vote against a bill Trump wants passed, or even if they beat him at a game of golf, he can leverage his power to make sure they don’t win another election, or can be recalled?

That’s the type of authoritarian system Trump wants to set up. Once our guardrails of government are removed - they are difficult to put back. Letting a bull loose in the China shop takes no time, putting things back together takes much longer, if not possible at all.

Republicans are detached from reality. Maybe we need to start puffing up the egos of conservatives to get them to condemn Trump. Facts, logic and common sense don’t work.


----------



## SuperMatt

Ginni Thomas might be in trouble… but I guess she figures she could always appeal to the Supreme Court. As we know, ethics no longer apply there and her husband wouldn’t recuse himself.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1551194269754474496/


----------



## fooferdoggie

SuperMatt said:


> Ginni Thomas might be in trouble… but I guess she figures she could always appeal to the Supreme Court. As we know, ethics no longer apply there and her husband wouldn’t recuse himself.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1551194269754474496/



This would really bring down the course public opinion and maybe really hamper it but who knows?


----------



## JayMysteri0

sgtaylor5 said:


> https://www.axios.com/2022/07/22/trump-2025-radical-plan-second-term
> 
> https://www.axios.com/2022/07/23/donald-trump-news-schedule-f-executive-order
> 
> Two very long articles discussing Trump's plan to use Schedule F executive order to gut the federal bureaucracy.
> 
> It's much much worse even if Trump runs and loses. The machinery is still there to make it work no matter who gets in office at some point. It sure feels like the Trumplicans are trying to force us into a Civil War no matter what we want. And they've been wanting a Civil War ever since Gingrich in 1995 destroyed the Congressional norms.



I think at this point, it's more fanaticism than anything else.  It's taking their dogma so far, they can't even see long term anymore.

Let's take things to an extreme.  Let's say the magats get their way.  They take over the gov't, they purge anyone not swigging the kool aid, what happens when the first major occurrence happens?  Do we really think a pandemic can't happen again?  Are we dispensing paper towels again, and only giving federal aids to states with 'r' governors?  The last time the orange one oversaw a pandemic it involved zero planning, no preparedness, and the best treatment for himself & friends.  There won't be a democrat to traditionally follow in office to pick up the pieces and clean up the messes.  So who are the magats going to blame for things go wrong?  They purged their go to guilty parties.

The republican party of late has shown that governing is NOT their thing, yet they want to make plans to take over gov't.  For what, to battle "wokeness"?  What the fuck is "wokeness"?  For something that began as a thing for the people they supposedly hate, once again the party of no original ideas co opts something.  Then can't explain it.  Like fucking "woke math".  The party has emboldened a set of idiots so far up their own asses they want to fight only fights they create, because it's the only fights they can win.  Because after all, all the important fights like climate change,  the economy, infrastructure, are all very hard and require a commitment to fix.

People keep using the story about the dog finally catching the car they chase.  When the magats find themselves getting all the reigns of power, I don't they will care for or even want the responsibilities that go with it.  That's when the shits fully hit the fan, and they lash out at anyone to compensate for their own well documented incompetence.


----------



## GermanSuplex

JayMysteri0 said:


> Let's take things to an extreme.  Let's say the magats get their way.  They take over the gov't, they purge anyone not swigging the kool aid, what happens when the first major occurrence happens?  Do we really think a pandemic can't happen again?  Are we dispensing paper towels again, and only giving federal aids to states with 'r' governors?




Hell, all these working class MAGA
kool-aid drinkers think their orange god will look out for them. If there was a pandemic, he and his golf buddies would be using their money to build a dome around mar-a-lago and leave the rest of his non-millionaire supporters to suffer.

Sure, Trump “cares” about them in the sense he knows they’re stupid and benefit his agenda, but I can’t believe they watch him betray everyone he knows and think they won’t be next.


----------



## Eric

Breaking (and a bit surprising).


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/w8yd8o


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Breaking (and a bit surprising).
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/w8yd8o




Not sure what “officially” is supposed to mean there. The DoJ doesn’t do “unofficial” investigations. And it implies that the DoJ announced something, which they didn’t.

Pedantry aside, it is good news.


----------



## Runs For Fun

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1552675045394317313/


----------



## Eric

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1552675045394317313/



He'll sue them for quoting him word for word... can't wait to see that.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1552675045394317313/



Just another way to scam more money from his idiot followers.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Runs For Fun said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1552675045394317313/




That might be the funniest thing he's done since leaving office.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> He'll sue them for quoting him word for word... can't wait to see that.




I have to admit suing the news for reporting news is pretty original and since CNN isn't explicitly mentioned in the constitution he might have a valid case with this supreme court.


----------



## Joe

Did y'all see a black man got the longest sentence so far for the insurrection? lol

He found out real quick he's still not a part of them. 

They're roasting him on Tik Tok.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Jan. 6 committee has a formal path to share investigative material with DOJ, its chair says
					

Agreement on evidence-sharing would mark a significant milestone as the DOJ inquiry into efforts by Donald Trump and others to overturn the 2020 election enters a more public-facing phase.




					www.politico.com
				




Good!


----------



## Runs For Fun

Hahaha  








						Trump claims he has “absolute immunity” from Jan. 6 lawsuits
					

Trump tries to dodge civil suits accusing him of inciting riot after a judge already rejected his earlier claims.




					www.salon.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Josh Hawley is writing a book. The title? “Manhood."





__





						Loading…
					





					www.kansascity.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

Just keep the little orange f---er talking, he will make his own case against himself.








> Trump notifies CNN of 'intent to file' defamation lawsuit regarding his unproven election claims
> 
> 
> Former President Donald Trump said in a statement Wednesday that he had notified CNN he was considering filing a defamation lawsuit against the company for its refusal to back his discredited claims that election fraud accounted for his loss to Joe Biden in 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com




The important part.



> “Accordingly, I hereby demand on behalf of President Donald Trump that CNN (1) immediately take down the false and defamatory publications, (2) immediately issue a full and fair retraction of the statements identified herein in as conspicuous a manner as they were originally published, and (3) immediately cease and desist from its continued use of ‘Big Lie’ and ‘lying’ when describing President Trump’s *subjective belief *regarding the integrity of the 2020 election,” the letter stated.




When you admit you know for legal reasons, you are talking bullshit, which helps make the case that the subject knew he was spreading "the big lie" as everyone around him kept telling him.  You can't keep saying you have evidence you won't show for what you BELIEVE is fact.  Either it is a fact you can prove, or it's bullshit & you know it, and won't back it up.  This isn't PRSI.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Exclusive: DHS inspector general knew of missing Secret Service texts months earlier than previously known
					

The embattled inspector general for the Department of Homeland Security first learned of missing Secret Service text messages in May 2021 -- months earlier than previously known and more than a year before he alerted the House select committee investigating January 6, 2021, that potentially...




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Runs For Fun

This is shady AF.


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/07/29/homeland-inspector-general-texts/


----------



## Alli

SuperMatt said:


> Josh Hawley is writing a book. The title? “Manhood."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kansascity.com



It’s supposed to be Man (in a KKK) hood.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Trump's Lawyers Are Preparing Legal Defenses Against Criminal Charges
					

According to internal communications reviewed by Rolling Stone, Trump’s team is “quietly” planning for criminal charges as it waits for the Justice Department to make its move




					www.rollingstone.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

Joe said:


> Did y'all see a black man got the longest sentence so far for the insurrection? lol
> 
> He found out real quick he's still not a part of them.
> 
> They're roasting him on Tik Tok.




The irony... sad and hilarious.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Runs For Fun said:


> Trump's Lawyers Are Preparing Legal Defenses Against Criminal Charges
> 
> 
> According to internal communications reviewed by Rolling Stone, Trump’s team is “quietly” planning for criminal charges as it waits for the Justice Department to make its move
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rollingstone.com




I’d move to call a mistrial based on the fact that a jury of his actual peers would be people who are currently in prison and therefore aren’t eligible for jury duty. It’s another unforeseen loophole brought to us by Trump World.


----------



## fooferdoggie

trumps legal defenses are about as good as his jan 6 planning.


----------



## Citysnaps

fooferdoggie said:


> trumps legal defenses are about as good as his jan 6 planning.




If he'd let Rudy and Sydney Powell be lead counsel I'd fly across the US to attend that trial.


----------



## SuperMatt

citypix said:


> If he'd let Rudy and Sydney Powell be lead counsel I'd fly across the US to attend that trial.



Make sure to wear a mask if you sit near Rudy (he’s a tooter).


----------



## fooferdoggie

citypix said:


> If he'd let Rudy and Sydney Powell be lead counsel I'd fly across the US to attend that trial.



well since they have been defanged I doubt it would happen. but I wonder if anyone good would work with him as they know he does not pay his bills.


----------



## Runs For Fun

More deleted texts
https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/02/politics/defense-department-missing-january-6-texts/index.htmlhttps://www.cnn.com/2022/08/02/politics/defense-department-missing-january-6-texts/index.htmlhttps://www.cnn.com/2022/08/02/politics/defense-department-missing-january-6-texts/index.html


----------



## shadow puppet

This is pretty wild.  Putting this here because apparently, the  the Jan 6 Committee is looking at subpoenaing the information.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1554924175223128067/


----------



## SuperMatt

Runs For Fun said:


> More deleted texts
> https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/02/politics/defense-department-missing-january-6-texts/index.htmlhttps://www.cnn.com/2022/08/02/politics/defense-department-missing-january-6-texts/index.htmlhttps://www.cnn.com/2022/08/02/politics/defense-department-missing-january-6-texts/index.html



If there are any people still in the DoD who were part of this, IMHO they need to face court martials.


----------



## SuperMatt

For those who visited the now-defunct PRSI section of MacRumors, you may recall there was a prolific (Canadian?) poster who filled a thread with dozens of #WalkAway videos, supposedly demonstrating that there was a mass exodus from the Democratic party.

The producer of those videos and that campaign was one Brandon Straka. Well, Mr. Straka was at the Capitol on Jan 6 last year,  but avoided serious repercussions for his actions there because he testified against a number of other insurrectionists.

But now Mr. Straka has made public statements that directly contradict his sworn testimony. The judge in the case said:



> At Wednesday's hearing, Judge Friedrich said Straka's public comments make "me question every statement he made to me at the time of sentencing - every single one of them."
> 
> "I'm wondering: should I be anticipating a motion to withdraw his plea?" Friedrich asked Straka's attorney. "Because I want you to know I would gladly hold an evidentiary hearing to address his claims. Is that something that I should be expecting?"




In general, judges gave the insurrectionists light sentences because they believed these fine white men truly had remorse… only to have them go and make public statements indicating the exact opposite afterwards. But of course these white men knew it would happen that way. The system is rigged in their favor.



> Among both judges and prosecutors, Friedrich is not alone in her frustration when it comes to certain post-plea commentary in the Capitol riot cases. One judge said he felt burned after a Jan. 6 defendant went on Fox News not long after sentencing and seemed to downplay her actions. This summer, prosecutors notified the court after another riot defendant went on a podcast and "made several statements inconsistent with the contrition that the government credited and on which the Court relied" at sentencing.




Yeah, maybe if the judges treated them as criminals instead of just good ol’ boys, never meanin’ no harm… They wouldn’t be so SHOCKED after letting them go with a slap on the wrist. These assholes attempted a coup, and all should face the maximum possible sentence for their crimes. But instead, the judges picked the one black guy who was there for the toughest sentence. And we wonder why these white power terrorists weren’t afraid in the slightest when they stormed the Capitol…









						A judge unleashed a tirade on a prominent Jan. 6 defendant for his post-plea comments
					

Brandon Straka pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor for egging on rioters during the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol. The judge in the case said he has since made "questionable" comments about his plea.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> For those who visited the now-defunct PRSI section of MacRumors, you may recall there was a prolific (Canadian?) poster who filled a thread with dozens of #WalkAway videos, supposedly demonstrating that there was a mass exodus from the Democratic party.
> 
> The producer of those videos and that campaign was one Brandon Straka. Well, Mr. Straka was at the Capitol on Jan 6 last year,  but avoided serious repercussions for his actions there because he testified against a number of other insurrectionists.
> 
> But now Mr. Straka has made public statements that directly contradict his sworn testimony. The judge in the case said:
> 
> 
> 
> In general, judges gave the insurrectionists light sentences because they believed these fine white men truly had remorse… only to have them go and make public statements indicating the exact opposite afterwards. But of course these white men knew it would happen that way. The system is rigged in their favor.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, maybe if the judges treated them as criminals instead of just good ol’ boys, never meanin’ no harm… They wouldn’t be so SHOCKED after letting them go with a slap on the wrist. These assholes attempted a coup, and all should face the maximum possible sentence for their crimes. But instead, the judges picked the one black guy who was there for the toughest sentence. And we wonder why these white power terrorists weren’t afraid in the slightest when they stormed the Capitol…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A judge unleashed a tirade on a prominent Jan. 6 defendant for his post-plea comments
> 
> 
> Brandon Straka pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor for egging on rioters during the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol. The judge in the case said he has since made "questionable" comments about his plea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org





There seems to be a pattern here where these people will act one way in a legal or governmental setting and then right after Uber straight to some rando’s podcast being recorded in their mom’s basement to loudly contradict and/or incriminate themselves. The biggest condemnation of the US right now is these people are still a viable threat despite that.


----------



## shadow puppet

Runs For Fun said:


> More deleted texts
> https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/02/politics/defense-department-missing-january-6-texts/index.htmlhttps://www.cnn.com/2022/08/02/politics/defense-department-missing-january-6-texts/index.htmlhttps://www.cnn.com/2022/08/02/politics/defense-department-missing-january-6-texts/index.html



Seth Abramson has a multi point thread about this.  It's quite a read beginning with:

_We need no longer question why the Republican Party got behind the coverup of an armed insurrection. It’s become evident that the top levels of the GOP—within the legislative branch, the executive branch, and possibly even the judicial branch—had some complicity in January 6.

Donald Trump inexplicably appointed four men to roles in (or connected to) the Pentagon after he lost the election—Kash Patel, Ezra Cohen-Watnick, Corey Lewandowsi, and David Bossie—at least two of whom, and likely all four, were active insurrectionists. This is scary stuff._

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1554586166342701061/


----------



## fooferdoggie

shadow puppet said:


> Seth Abramson has a multi point thread about this.  It's quite a read beginning with
> 
> 
> _Donald Trump inexplicably appointed four men to roles in (or connected to) the Pentagon after he lost the election—Kash Patel, Ezra Cohen-Watnick, Corey Lewandowsi, and David Bossie—at least two of whom, and likely all four, were active insurrectionists. This is scary stuff._



but her emails.


----------



## SuperMatt

shadow puppet said:


> Seth Abramson has a multi point thread about this.  It's quite a read beginning with
> 
> _We need no longer question why the Republican Party got behind the coverup of an armed insurrection. It’s become evident that the top levels of the GOP—within the legislative branch, the executive branch, and possibly even the judicial branch—had some complicity in January 6.
> 
> Donald Trump inexplicably appointed four men to roles in (or connected to) the Pentagon after he lost the election—Kash Patel, Ezra Cohen-Watnick, Corey Lewandowsi, and David Bossie—at least two of whom, and likely all four, were active insurrectionists. This is scary stuff._
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1554586166342701061/



The FOIA request came in on Jan 15 2021, so there’s no excuse such as “the request was too late and it already got deleted". This destruction of evidence appears to have been deliberate and illegal. Lock them up!


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

shadow puppet said:


> Seth Abramson has a multi point thread about this.  It's quite a read beginning with
> 
> _We need no longer question why the Republican Party got behind the coverup of an armed insurrection. It’s become evident that the top levels of the GOP—within the legislative branch, the executive branch, and possibly even the judicial branch—had some complicity in January 6.
> 
> Donald Trump inexplicably appointed four men to roles in (or connected to) the Pentagon after he lost the election—Kash Patel, Ezra Cohen-Watnick, Corey Lewandowsi, and David Bossie—at least two of whom, and likely all four, were active insurrectionists. This is scary stuff._
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1554586166342701061/




This really makes you wonder how something like this wasn’t tried before by more competent people before the dawn of digital tracking everything and cinema quality cameras in everybody’s pocket. Or maybe it doesn’t get more American than a complete moron and his equals believing they could pull it off.


----------



## Runs For Fun

The FBI is certainly busy these days 








						Rep. Scott Perry says FBI seized his phone
					

Perry said he is "outraged" by the FBI's "banana republic tactics."




					www.axios.com


----------



## fooferdoggie

Runs For Fun said:


> The FBI is certainly busy these days
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rep. Scott Perry says FBI seized his phone
> 
> 
> Perry said he is "outraged" by the FBI's "banana republic tactics."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.axios.com



criminals always complain about being harassed by the cops.


----------



## GermanSuplex

What is it going to take to get republicans to realize the breadth and depth of Trump's corruption? This was a toilet overflowing from the top.

And yes, watching these rich, white conservatives whine about how they're being treated... its the height of hypocrisy. I've said it once and I'll say it a million times - white collar crime needs to be treated with the same urgency and dealt the same punishments as violent crime. These conservative Trumpers truly think the laws don't apply to them. They think wearing a suit and being elected to office grants them some sort of de facto immunity. I'll just call up some election officials and ask them to throw out votes or "find" more. We'll just send our own electors to Washington and give them to the VP. I'll just go ahead and work on setting up that Russian back-channel.. you know, so we can win some more votes with their help. Let me call up the Ukrainian president and see if he has any dirt on my potential opponent. Hold back that aid to his nation until we get a deal hammered out!

On and on and on.

As for Perry, people have their phones seized all the time for various suspicions. Pretty sure they didn't seize his phone because he wished a constituent a happy birthday or was working on setting up a town hall to hear from voters. Why should he be treated any differently than anyone else suspected of a crime or anyone else who has needed evidence? Because he's a republican? White? Both? Pretty sure neither of those things are supposed to matter, regardless of how many times its seemed to work for others in the past.


----------



## Cmaier

Runs For Fun said:


> The FBI is certainly busy these days
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rep. Scott Perry says FBI seized his phone
> 
> 
> Perry said he is "outraged" by the FBI's "banana republic tactics."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.axios.com



This country is going downhill when powerful white guys are treated like everyone else.


----------



## Runs For Fun

GermanSuplex said:


> What is it going to take to get republicans to realize the breadth and depth of Trump's corruption? This was a toilet overflowing from the top.
> 
> And yes, watching these rich, white conservatives whine about how they're being treated... its the height of hypocrisy. I've said it once and I'll say it a million times - white collar crime needs to be treated with the same urgency and dealt the same punishments as violent crime. These conservative Trumpers truly think the laws don't apply to them. They think wearing a suit and being elected to office grants them some sort of de facto immunity. I'll just call up some election officials and ask them to throw out votes or "find" more. We'll just send our own electors to Washington and give them to the VP. I'll just go ahead and work on setting up that Russian back-channel.. you know, so we can win some more votes with their help. Let me call up the Ukrainian president and see if he has any dirt on my potential opponent. Hold back that aid to his nation until we get a deal hammered out!
> 
> On and on and on.
> 
> As for Perry, people have their phones seized all the time for various suspicions. Pretty sure they didn't seize his phone because he wished a constituent a happy birthday or was working on setting up a town hall to hear from voters. Why should he be treated any differently than anyone else suspected of a crime or anyone else who has needed evidence? Because he's a republican? White? Both? Pretty sure neither of those things are supposed to matter, regardless of how many times its seemed to work for others in the past.



Completely agree. Trump has poisoned the well. Even though he's no longer the president everything is still infected with his crap. The corruption runs deep and every single ones of these people need to be weeded out.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Oh boy this is going to get good








						Law enforcement association warns agents of criminal exposure after Secret Service shares personal cell phone numbers with investigators
					

The professional association that advocates for federal law enforcement agents warned members of the US Secret Service Tuesday that their personal phone numbers the agency recently released "will likely be used" in a criminal investigation, according to a copy of a letter sent to agents and...




					www.cnn.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

Ron Johnson is now going back on his word that he knew nothing about the fake electors that were to be handed to Pence - by him, personally - and is saying he only partook in it for a couple seconds.

He’s already contradicted himself in public, and I highly doubt he was just mindlessly taking orders from his staff to hand documents to the VP. These hearings are supposed to resume next month, and while I don’t anticipate seeing any sitting member of Congress testifying, I can see their staff testifying or their emails/texts being made public. After all, lots of this stuff is official business, especially if any of it was done via work email. Not sure about if they were using private email or numbers, but that shouldn’t be difficult to obtain.









						Ron Johnson says he took part in Trump's Jan. 6 scheme for 'couple of seconds only'
					

Ron Johnson, who is on the ballot this fall, insists that he was only briefly involved in trying to overturn the 2020 election results on Trump's behalf.



					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> Ron Johnson is now going back on his word that he knew nothing about the fake electors that were to be handed to Pence - by him, personally - and is saying he only partook in it for a couple seconds.
> 
> He’s already contradicted himself in public, and I highly doubt he was just mindlessly taking orders from his staff to hand documents to the VP. These hearings are supposed to resume next month, and while I don’t anticipate seeing any sitting member of Congress testifying, I can see their staff testifying or their emails/texts being made public. After all, lots of this stuff is official business, especially if any of it was done via work email. Not sure about if they were using private email or numbers, but that shouldn’t be difficult to obtain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ron Johnson says he took part in Trump's Jan. 6 scheme for 'couple of seconds only'
> 
> 
> Ron Johnson, who is on the ballot this fall, insists that he was only briefly involved in trying to overturn the 2020 election results on Trump's behalf.
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com




Hah, yeah, a couple of seconds. That sounds reasonable.   Jeeeez.


----------



## lizkat

citynaps said:


> Hah, yeah, a couple of seconds. That sounds reasonable. Jeeeez.





Yeah, right?  All of the insurrection-aiding officials in the GOP just lie their heads off and figure they can get away with it because Congress itself can't actually indict to launch a formal criminal prosecution... and also because the GOP figure to control the House after midterms.

So in 2025 they surely hope to put a halt to current investigations and launch their clown-car "investigations" of everything anyone named Biden or Clinton ever said or did.  Oh, and Obama, why not him too.

Meanwhile these same Rs stood around for four years and watched Trump try to kick the jackposts out from under the Constitution every which way he could and then wrapped up trying to help him stay in power illegally.

Their biggest problems though are that this is only 2022 and not a presidential election year, and so US Attorney General Merrick Garland will continue to serve at the pleasure of President Joe Biden even after the next session of the US House is sworn in.  And Garland's DoJ has not even been waiting on the House investigations to wrap, obviously.

Hope Garland can take the heat meanwhile,  because the Rs will be hammering on him as corrupt or biased or whatever right through 2024.

It bothers me that government officials would destroy texts or phone records or other documents related in any way to the attempt to prevent the transition of power after a presidential election.

I get it that some in Secret Service or DoD or West Wing or Congress might be embarrassed for themselves or for their party, either way, or just unhappy with how it all looks in retrospect after the chaos and confusion of chain of command (or lack of it) on January 6th.   But to destroy evidence for that reason is just as obstructive as being guilty of aiding insurrection intentionally.

Deciding to electronically shred stuff off phones on grounds that a transition would soon occur anyway is absurd on the face of it and surely flouts document retention directives.

There seems so little sense of care for country or constitution except where people have got caught up somehow by others' testimony or evidence,  and then got subpoenaed or else felt it was better to cooperate without waiting for that pressure.


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> Ron Johnson is now going back on his word that he knew nothing about the fake electors that were to be handed to Pence - by him, personally - and is saying he only partook in it for a couple seconds.
> 
> He’s already contradicted himself in public, and I highly doubt he was just mindlessly taking orders from his staff to hand documents to the VP. These hearings are supposed to resume next month, and while I don’t anticipate seeing any sitting member of Congress testifying, I can see their staff testifying or their emails/texts being made public. After all, lots of this stuff is official business, especially if any of it was done via work email. Not sure about if they were using private email or numbers, but that shouldn’t be difficult to obtain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ron Johnson says he took part in Trump's Jan. 6 scheme for 'couple of seconds only'
> 
> 
> Ron Johnson, who is on the ballot this fall, insists that he was only briefly involved in trying to overturn the 2020 election results on Trump's behalf.
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com



man he has trumpitus. or is it gulliani its? or is it marjorie trailer grease itus?


----------



## GermanSuplex

This should be interesting…









						Jan. 6 panel alleges Gingrich involvement with Trump efforts, seeks interview
					

The House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol is asking former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) to voluntarily sit with its investigators, claiming he advised the Tru…



					thehill.com


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> This should be interesting…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jan. 6 panel alleges Gingrich involvement with Trump efforts, seeks interview
> 
> 
> The House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol is asking former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) to voluntarily sit with its investigators, claiming he advised the Tru…
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com




No better advisor to turn to than Newt Gingrich. He wrote the book that started the transformation of the republican party a few decades ago.


----------



## Eric

GermanSuplex said:


> This should be interesting…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jan. 6 panel alleges Gingrich involvement with Trump efforts, seeks interview
> 
> 
> The House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol is asking former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) to voluntarily sit with its investigators, claiming he advised the Tru…
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com



Those who sold out every principle they've ever held dear to get behind such a megalomaniacal man like Trump never ceases to amaze me, the blinders they have on is baffling to any rational human being.


----------



## Hrafn

Citysnaps said:


> No better advisor to turn to than Newt Gingrich. He wrote the book that started the transformation of the republican party a few decades ago.



Yeah, considering he ran full tilt against Clinton getting a bj while having multiple affairs himself.


----------



## fooferdoggie

so trump says again he will padded all of the losers and says he has supported one financially  (that I doubt)


----------



## GermanSuplex

Law and order. Unless the people breaking the law like me…


----------



## lizkat

A Pennsylvania resident was turned in to feds by his ex-girlfriend for his 1/6 participation.  He had called her "a moron" for not believing that the 2020 election was stolen.  She turned him in to the FBI the next day. 

Today he got nine months in federal prison despite taking a way different tone at his sentencing hearing.   And a $2k fine.  And 2 years probation.  Says he's been taking anger management classes and attending chruch since the insurrection.   Good for him but not good enough for a judge possibly gettin' tired of all these dudes from Pennsylvania showing up ever so sorry now that they got caught...









						A Delco Capitol rioter who was turned in by his ex after he called her a ‘moron’ was sentenced to 9 months in prison
					

The sentence Richard Michetti, 29, of Ridley Park, received for his role in the attack came the same day as Philadelphia man Michael Dickinson pleaded guilty to assaulting officers during the riot.




					www.inquirer.com
				






> Despite Michetti’s remorse, the punishment Cooper imposed Tuesday — which also included a $2,000 restitution order and a two-year term of probation upon release — was one of the stiffer sentences handed down so far against any of the 23 Pennsylvanians who have faced sentencing for participating in the insurrection.
> 
> Most others have thus far received probation or less than two months of incarceration after pleading guilty to misdemeanor crimes. Cases against nearly four dozen more are still pending in Washington’s federal court, including that of Michael Dickinson, of Philadelphia, who pleaded guilty Tuesday to one count of assaulting police officers during the melee.




Dickinson may be looking at a hefty sentence.   Assaulting a police officer is not a misdemeanor.


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> Today he got nine months in federal prison despite taking a way different tone at his sentencing hearing.   And a $2k fine.  And 2 years probation.  Says he's been taking anger management classes and attending chruch since the insurrection.   Good for him but not good enough for a judge possibly gettin' tired of all these dudes from Pennsylvania showing up ever so sorry now that they got caught...
> attending church will not fix him it may make ut worse depending on the church.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Breaking news on NYT - DoJ has seized phones of several people close to Trump in relation to their activity around the events of January 6.

Over 40 subpoenas issued…

_Two top Trump advisers, Boris Epshteyn and Mike Roman, had their phones seized as evidence, those people said._









						Justice Dept. Issues 40 Subpoenas in a Week, Expanding Its Jan. 6 Inquiry
					

It also seized the phones of two top Trump advisers, a sign of an escalating investigation two months before the midterm elections.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## lizkat

Next public hearing of the 1/6 House committee will be September 28th... just announced today.


----------



## Alli

Don’t forget the meeting of the Coup Club.


----------



## GermanSuplex

What is fatso pointing to? Where he claimed to have hit the golf ball vs. where it actually was, while his buddies stand around and agree?


----------



## ronntaylor

Alli said:


> View attachment 17602
> Don’t forget the meeting of the Coup Club.



Change that to the Queue Club: they're about to be queued up to the courthouse. They're also either very, very paranoid or there is a mole feeding info to the outside.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> View attachment 17602
> Don’t forget the meeting of the Coup Club.



Guy on the very right in the white hat looks like he really thought they were going to golf.


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> Guy on the very right in the white hat looks like he really thought they were going to golf.




And in some of the other pictures of that same group floating around, he kinda looks like Eric Trump.


----------



## Yoused

Where is his Secret Service detail?


----------



## lizkat

Yoused said:


> Where is his Secret Service detail?




Heh...  off testifying before a grand jury?  

I don't think any of his detail are in that picture. He might be just off to the left of the guy in the purple shirt at the left end there.   In some of the other shots you can see one of the detail because the guy's earpiece cord is visible;  he's wearing a light blue shirt.  I don't know how many people are on a former president's detail, do you?  It's not the same setup as for a sitting president.


----------



## Citysnaps

Which one in the photo flipped and is wearing a wire?


----------



## Alli

Yoused said:


> Where is his Secret Service detail?



Good question. I hadn’t even thought about that.


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> Good question. I hadn’t even thought about that.




Probably told them to stand back a hundred yards and keep their hands in full view...


----------



## Yoused

In related news the FBI seized Pillowhead's phone in their ongoing J6 investigation. He, of course, was outraged – "_I run 5 businesses off that phone; I don't have a computer_." Or a backup, it seems.


----------



## Runs For Fun

LMAO 
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1570035665340960770/


----------



## Alli

Runs For Fun said:


> LMAO
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1570035665340960770/



Well played, Hardees. Well played!


----------



## Citysnaps

Here's a fascinating 60 Minutes interview that aired tonight of Denver Riggleman, who has been working with the Jan6th Committee as a technical advisor analyzing all of the phone calls and messages between White House personnel and the Jan6th insurrectionists, and others including Ginny Thomas.  His credentials include being a past intelligence officer for both the US Air Force and the NSA, and was a past Republican US House member.

He's sifted though and analyzed a ton of data yielding connections no doubt very useful information for the Committee.  I'm looking forward to learning more about those connections in an upcoming hearing.









						Former January 6 committee technical adviser Denver Riggleman: The 60 Minutes Interview
					

Former GOP Rep. Denver Riggleman says there is "irrefutable" proof of a plot to overturn the 2020 presidential election.



					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## Alli

I can’t wait for Wednesday!


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Citysnaps said:


> He's sifted though and analyzed a ton of data yielding connections no doubt very useful information for the Committee.  I'm looking forward to learning more about those connections in an upcoming hearing.



I think most people outside of the cult know what Trump is and what crimes he has committed. These investigations seem to go on forever. And now DeSantis is being investigated for human trafficking, which he openly admits he did without calling it by that name. The question is if and when these creeps will actually pay for their crimes. As of now, Trump is still playing golf every day and going from one rally to another to spew even more lies. And Bannon is out there pushing even more vile conspiracy theories. Let's go DOJ.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Alli said:


> I can’t wait for Wednesday!



I've got my popcorn ready!


----------



## rdrr

Citysnaps said:


> Here's a fascinating 60 Minutes interview that aired tonight of Denver Riggleman, who has been working with the Jan6th Committee as a technical advisor analyzing all of the phone calls and messages between White House personnel and the Jan6th insurrectionists, and others including Ginny Thomas.  His credentials include being a past intelligence officer for both the US Air Force and the NSA, and was a past Republican US House member.
> 
> He's sifted though and analyzed a ton of data yielding connections no doubt very useful information for the Committee.  I'm looking forward to learning more about those connections in an upcoming hearing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Former January 6 committee technical adviser Denver Riggleman: The 60 Minutes Interview
> 
> 
> Former GOP Rep. Denver Riggleman says there is "irrefutable" proof of a plot to overturn the 2020 presidential election.
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com



Sounds like an 80's slasher film.   "The phone call is coming from inside the White House!"


----------



## lizkat

mac_in_tosh said:


> I think most people outside of the cult know what Trump is and what crimes he has committed. These investigations seem to go on forever. And now DeSantis is being investigated for human trafficking, which he openly admits he did without calling it by that name. The question is if and when these creeps will actually pay for their crimes. As of now, Trump is still playing golf every day and going from one rally to another to spew even more lies. And Bannon is out there pushing even more vile conspiracy theories. Let's go DOJ.




Sigh... even if a lot of conservatives at this point are sick of Trump's antics, then so long as those same conservatives decline to sit out the midterms, the GOP pays no price for not publicly disavowing Trump.

The guy is a uniquely bad influence on American politics.   His endorsed candidates are more of the same.   I'm willing to say he's a fascist.  He was angling to become president for life, to give us the choice of crowning him or living in turmoil and chaos like we have seen in some Middle Eastern, Central Asian and African countries with weak ties to democratic principles, and post-election strife. 

The anti-Trump conservatives are highly unlikely to vote for Democrats in the midterms.  But I don't see much evidence that they plan even just to sit out the 2022 elections.  So they could end up running the hold-nose-and-vote-for-party gig, thus emboldening anew the Trump GOP.

 It sickens me to there could be even more mini-Trumps who will be helping the House shape this country's laws as of January 2023.


----------



## Yoused

I better not comment …









						Ginni Thomas tells Jan. 6 panel she still believes false election fraud claims, chair says
					

Rep. Bennie Thompson said the select committee may incorporate her testimony in their rescheduled hearing “if there's something of merit.”




					www.politico.com


----------



## Alli

We finally have a new date for the final hearing - 13 October, next Thursday. I don’t know if it will be morning or afternoon though.


----------



## Citysnaps




----------



## Alli

I’m psyched. It’s been on my calendar since they announced the time.


----------



## rdrr

Honestly, I got to admit that I think the MAGAs/insurrectionist are winning.  I am so numb to all of this, that I don't want to watch.   Nothing is going to happened to Trump, not even if they have dated pictures of him doing the most offensive act.   Sorry for being the ultimate pessimist, but I am tired of the lack of accountability from one side of the isle.


----------



## Citysnaps

I have a feeling there will be a couple of interesting revelations today.

And am looking forward to some Garland announcements later this year.


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> I am so numb to all of this




I rather fear the entire country has become numb to far too many things.   The human brain does not tolerate a perpetual state of high alarm, never mind jaw-dropping shock.   It's too much work.

"Familiarity breeds contempt" seems to be the brain's weary response to events like one more lie from a guy who told 30k documented lies while president.  That guy ushered in an era of overt attempts to divorce reality from purposeful lies about reality. 

Whose brain could possibly give a damn after awhile whether a particular assertion is a lie or not?  The onslaught of lies has numbed us all, even if we desperately want to remain curious or skeptical or just decent human beings with a sense of empathy for others and the ability to be shocked by harm and injustice. 

We are lucky by now if we can even remember the name of the state in which a cited school shooting occurred. And, alarmingly enough for those who are not entirely numb,  one out of five Americans actually now thinks that most school shootings were staged by the government (for what purpose, who knows, but Alex Jones' purpose in spreading his vile lies and conspiracy theories was to make a lot of money).   Even the defamation suits now rolling Jones into financial ruin cannot make up for the ravages his falsehoods have brought upon our society.

Fifty or more years ago a newsweekly magazine proposed this idea:  "Lying:  everyone does it".   Outrage ensued.   Now nothing outrages us for long, and if it does, one must not be following enough social media accounts to have a wide angle view on the options for outrage about something newer.

So we extend numbness by default after awhile to not just lies but to other seemingly repetitive events, and there's hardly anything gets excluded.  We've all seen it all,  or at least have suspected that we're one clickable link away from that status.    There are a lot of links I will never click on, so I'm not completely numb.

All that said, there's no way short of a power or internet outage that i won't be watching the 1/6 hearing today. People testify under oath, few dare perjure themselves when they are not sure who else can refute their testimony (or has already done so in a deposition),  and Americans have paid attention during those well presented hearings.

That completely infuriates the pro-Trump Republicans who run the GOP today, and that rage will likely fuel some of the most outrageous Republican hearings in the next Congress that the USA has seen since the McCarthy hearings in the 50s.    It probably won't take long for me to become too numb to watch those.  My brain will relate them to the previous circus offerings of the GOP during the two Trump impeachments and I will become unable to absorb the latest round of pro-Trump Republican projections and lies that are put on offer.


----------



## rdrr

lizkat said:


> I rather fear the entire country has become numb to far too many things.   The human brain does not tolerate a perpetual state of high alarm, never mind jaw-dropping shock.   It's too much work.
> 
> "Familiarity breeds contempt" seems to be the brain's weary response to events like one more lie from a guy who told 30k documented lies while president.  That guy ushered in an era of overt attempts to divorce reality from purposeful lies about reality.
> 
> Whose brain could possibly give a damn after awhile whether a particular assertion is a lie or not?  The onslaught of lies has numbed us all, even if we desperately want to remain curious or skeptical or just decent human beings with a sense of empathy for others and the ability to be shocked by harm and injustice.
> 
> We are lucky by now if we can even remember the name of the state in which a cited school shooting occurred. And, alarmingly enough for those who are not entirely numb,  one out of five Americans actually now thinks that most school shootings were staged by the government (for what purpose, who knows, but Alex Jones' purpose in spreading his vile lies and conspiracy theories was to make a lot of money).   Even the defamation suits now rolling Jones into financial ruin cannot make up for the ravages his falsehoods have brought upon our society.
> 
> Fifty or more years ago a newsweekly magazine proposed this idea:  "Lying:  everyone does it".   Outrage ensued.   Now nothing outrages us for long, and if it does, one must not be following enough social media accounts to have a wide angle view on the options for outrage about something newer.
> 
> So we extend numbness by default after awhile to not just lies but to other seemingly repetitive events, and there's hardly anything gets excluded.  We've all seen it all,  or at least have suspected that we're one clickable link away from that status.    There are a lot of links I will never click on, so I'm not completely numb.
> 
> All that said, there's no way short of a power or internet outage that i won't be watching the 1/6 hearing today. People testify under oath, few dare perjure themselves when they are not sure who else can refute their testimony (or has already done so in a deposition),  and Americans have paid attention during those well presented hearings.
> 
> That completely infuriates the pro-Trump Republicans who run the GOP today, and that rage will likely fuel some of the most outrageous Republican hearings in the next Congress that the USA has seen since the McCarthy hearings in the 50s.    It probably won't take long for me to become too numb to watch those.  My brain will relate them to the previous circus offerings of the GOP during the two Trump impeachments and I will become unable to absorb the latest round of pro-Trump Republican projections and lies that are put on offer.



Remember the days when certain actions had consequences?  Heck the Right still hold Democrats to this standard and demand their pound of flesh, with little heed to their own house, e.g. Al Franken shunning vs. Matt Gaetz 

I remember the days not too long ago that an affair would ruin a candidates hope for president.  Remember Gary Hart and John Edwards and what happened to them?   Now look at the GOP candidate running in Georgia.

/rant

Sorry about the negativity, things are just getting to me lately AND I put on jeans this morning and come to the realization that I need to go up in my waste-line.


----------



## Huntn

rdrr said:


> Honestly, I got to admit that I think the MAGAs/insurrectionist are winning.  I am so numb to all of this, that I don't want to watch.   Nothing is going to happened to Trump, not even if they have dated pictures of him doing the most offensive act.   Sorry for being the ultimate pessimist, but I am tired of the lack of accountability from one side of the isle.



When I consider circumstances, I am both infuriated and dismayed that the Jan 6 Insurrectionist Case, politically is not an opened and closed slam dunk case, primarily because it illustrates the dire circumstances that the USA is currently operating under. Our democracy is teetering on a pin head.


----------



## Huntn

Most amazing is the testimony from Republicans deposed by the Jan 6 Committee. For MAGA Trumpists, It’s time to grow up, YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH, or your standards are so pathetically  low you deserve to be the sheared sheep that you are. What jolt in your life will it take to open you eyes?  

And “they” want to blame Biden for our messy Afghanistan withdrawal.


----------



## GermanSuplex

NBC reporting the committee plans to vote on a Trump subpoena in this hearing, which is probably why Chairman Thompson prefaced the hearing by saying it would be a meeting-like hearing.


----------



## shadow puppet

Unanimous vote to subpoena Trump.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

shadow puppet said:


> Unanimous vote to subpoena Trump.



Like he's going to obey it?


----------



## shadow puppet

mac_in_tosh said:


> Like he's going to obey it?



Oh I know.  But I loved seeing it happen.  TFG will forever have that on his record.  A former U.S. President who stood by and let Jan. 6 happen.  Unconscionable.

This previously unseen footage was wild to watch.
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1580641741467635712/


----------



## Herdfan

mac_in_tosh said:


> Like he's going to obey it?




He's just taking after Eric Holder.

And I have said this before, but now CNN is saying it:









						Voters may care more about the cost of French fries than January 6 panel's compelling evidence | CNN Politics
					

The House select committee investigating the US Capitol insurrection long ago dropped the notion of being a narrowly focused quest for the facts as members use their probe to try to defend democracy in its intensifying struggle with Donald Trump.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## shadow puppet

TFG's hissy fits have already begun.  Why am I not surprised?


----------



## Huntn

shadow puppet said:


> Unanimous vote to subpoena Trump.



I want to see them enforce this.  

i did not watch all day, but I know this:
To easily flush this POS into the history books you need Truth, Honesty, and  Competence in leadership, but the most single important thing you need above all else,  the lack of which will sink your efforts, as they crash the ship on the rocks with drooling grins, is a base with enough STUPID, Racists, hypocritical  Dummies back home who are more than willing to sabotage US Democracy and the Constitution and maybe too stupid to know it or too corrupt to care, if they think in the end, they will come out ahead.  In that case we are screwed.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

If they somehow get Trump to testify I hope they start with the video montage of him saying only people who are guilty plead the 5th.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> He's just taking after Eric Holder.
> 
> And I have said this before, but now CNN is saying it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Voters may care more about the cost of French fries than January 6 panel's compelling evidence | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> The House select committee investigating the US Capitol insurrection long ago dropped the notion of being a narrowly focused quest for the facts as members use their probe to try to defend democracy in its intensifying struggle with Donald Trump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com




That's more of an indictment about the state of the country - or the numbness to all things Trump - than it is any sort of acquittal of Trump.

And what will the republicans - who currently say "Americans aren't worried about this, they care about the price of gas and inflation" - what will they have to say when they take control of the house and start having hearings about Hunter Biden? I'd say Hunter Biden probably ranks well below French fries as well.

But we know what republicans will say - the opposite of what they're saying about Trump, January 6 and the stealing of classified documents.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> That's more of an indictment about the state of the country - or the numbness to all things Trump - than it is any sort of acquittal of Trump.




I agree.  I don't think in any way it is an acquittal of Trump.  I simply think people have other things to worry about.  Like how to pay for food and gas.



GermanSuplex said:


> And what will the republicans - who currently say "Americans aren't worried about this, they care about the price of gas and inflation" - what will they have to say when they take control of the house and start having hearings about Hunter Biden? I'd say Hunter Biden probably ranks well below French fries as well.
> 
> But we know what republicans will say - the opposite of what they're saying about Trump, January 6 and the stealing of classified documents.




I disagree here.  Yes there will be investigations of Hunter.  But do you not care if he was peddling influence?  Using his father's office to enrich himself and possibly his father.  Just think to yourself for one minute that if the rolls were reversed and it was Don Jr. or Eric who had done what Hunter is accused of..........


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> He's just taking after Eric Holder.




Oh please.  Without the jacked up histrionics of the NRA and their pressure on a beholden Congress, all that would have come of the _Fast and Furious_ debacle would have been the considered assessment (which was in fact made) that such an operation carried too many lethal risks and did not yield enough insight into high level gun trafficking criminals anyway.  Painful lessons, painful loss of human life.

But to compare the loss of life there and the lost 1400 of 2000 guns --floating into the ether of potential criminal activity-- to the misery and daily loss of life around the USA from inappropriate use of either illegally acquired or carelessly stored weapons, well...  hard pass there from me. 

Same hard pass to the idea of comparing Trump and Holder over their respective run-ins with Congress.

Donald Trump's net damage to the fabric of American society exceeded that of any ill advised move by Eric Holder,  even by the time Trump got done with the hat-in-ring speech he made at the bottom of that escalator when announcing his quest for the 2016 GOP nomination. 

Perhaps no one could have foretold Trump's incitement of a violent disruption of the 1/6/21 proceedings related to transition of power to Joe Biden.  But neither could anyone have been shocked by then to have seen that Trump held the spirit and much of the letter of our Constitution in utter contempt. He has demonstrated his total disdain for norms, guidelines, protocols, rule of law, the courts, both houses of Congress, his own agency and cabinet heads, other heads of state, the decency and humanity of entire groups of other people at home and abroad, the dignity of all those he has chosen to ridicule, threaten, override or even fire by way of social media posts.



Herdfan said:


> And I have said this before, but now CNN is saying it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Voters may care more about the cost of French fries than January 6 panel's compelling evidence | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> The House select committee investigating the US Capitol insurrection long ago dropped the notion of being a narrowly focused quest for the facts as members use their probe to try to defend democracy in its intensifying struggle with Donald Trump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com




Whatever CNN thinks of inflation and crime and how much of that belongs to Joe Biden,   let's not imagine that Biden himself doesn't realize the truth of the old saw "the buck stops here."  Doesn't mean that Biden is solely responsible for current states of inflation and crime,  but that has never stopped midterm voters from casting aspersions on whichever administration holds power.    _C'est la vie._ 

All presidents live with the risk that the opposition will sell in the idea of *restraining the executive branch *by flipping the House at midterm. 

It's just ironic in the extreme that here we have a GOP trying to pitch flipping Congress red in 2022, just so that they can resume their project of turning Congress into a circus hoping to impeach and remove Biden because [no reason] ...and then making themselves toothless after* helping install a president for life* in the person of Donald John Trump in 2024.  I don't know why they want to experience totalitarian government, but there it is, and God forbid it should come to pass.

I hope Garland indicts that scofflaw Trump and he eventually faces a jury that still knows truth from a lie.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> Just think to yourself for one minute that if the rolls were reversed and it was Don Jr. or Eric who had done what Hunter is accused of..........




You mean like what they pretty much did. 

Nepotism and peddling influence aren’t illegal in and of themselves. If they wanted to pay Hunter Biden to get an audience with the Vice President, then that’s their right, their money. As long as everything is otherwise above board, then there’s no legal issue (though plenty of moral caveats)

If Hunter is busted for anything, the gun charge is the one most likely to land him some jail time. Possibly the tax evasion charges too, depending on the amount hidden, and whether he can pay it back or not in a reasonable amount of time.


----------



## shadow puppet

Anderson Cooper just showed 17 minutes of new footage showing congressional leaders' makeshift command post at Fort McNair to quell the Jan. 6 mob.  It's truly disturbing, especially viewed from their viewpoint as they were evacuated.  Many of that Jan. 6th mob were out for blood.  I still remember the hangman's noose set-up intended for Pence.

This is Trump's legacy.  It sickens me no end to hear the excuses made for him and his destruction of our democracy..  These people are in serous denial.  Damage has been done that I'm not sure we will ever fully recover from.  It scares me to death to consider what will happen if the GOP regain power of the House and/or Senate.

Trump is complicit, guilty AF and must be indicted.  But he's certainly not the only one.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> If they somehow get Trump to testify I hope they start with the video montage of him saying only people who are guilty plead the 5th.



trump is a walking fifth amendment.


----------



## quagmire

Herdfan said:


> I agree.  I don't think in any way it is an acquittal of Trump.  I simply think people have other things to worry about.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree here.  Yes there will be investigations of Hunter.  But do you not care if he was peddling influence?  Using his father's office to enrich himself and possibly his father.  Just think to yourself for one minute that if the rolls were reversed and it was Don Jr. or Eric who had done what Hunter is accused of..........




If people have more things to worry about than Trump inciting an insurrection against the US and don’t care to hold him accountable then they won’t care about Hunter for the same reason.

But if Hunter is guilty, he should go to jail. Trump should be in jail for January 6th.

But it’s laughable you think enriching one self is far worse and deserving of investigations by a GOP controlled House, but dismiss the January 6 panel as no big deal, inflation is more important.


----------



## lizkat

quagmire said:


> If people have more things to worry about than Trump inciting an insurrection against the US and don’t care to hold him accountable then they won’t care about Hunter for the same reason.
> 
> But if Hunter is guilty, he should go to jail. Trump should be in jail for January 6th.
> 
> But it’s laughable you think enriching one self is far worse and deserving of investigations by a GOP controlled House, but dismiss the January 6 panel as no big deal, inflation is more important.




I agree but also realize there are plenty Americans far more concerned now about inflation because it's still here,  and "that stupid riot"  --as a friend down the road still prefers to call the insurrection--  was nearly two years ago. 

The threat to democracy remains horrific to people who care about the country's governability, especially  in view of Republican state-level legislation meant to facilitate overturning unliked election results wherever the GOP foresees increasing trouble winning a fair contest.   But most Americans did not attend events in DC on January 6, 2021,  and what has happened since then --prosecution  and sentencing of insurrectionists.  deposing witnesses before the House committee, now even a move to subpoena Trump--   just falls into the category of "all that political stuff".  

Meanwhile the autumn leaves aren't raked, either the furnace or the old car in the driveway plots to disappoint us come the first wintry morning, and 4 little plum tomatoes went for 3 bucks in the produce aisle yesterday.  Bothering to follow what's up with Donald Trump these days can feel pretty optional.


----------



## rdrr

Herdfan said:


> I disagree here.  Yes there will be investigations of Hunter.  But do you not care if he was peddling influence?  Using his father's office to enrich himself and possibly his father.  Just think to yourself for one minute that if the rolls were reversed and it was Don Jr. or Eric who had done what Hunter is accused of..........



What the hell are you talking about?   How are you able to just gloss over the fact that the Trump crime family used his position to enrich themselves and use the influence of the president's office with foreign leaders for their dealings.   Your whataboutism is sickening.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

rdrr said:


> What the hell are you talking about?   How are you able to just gloss over the fact that the Trump crime family used his position to enrich themselves and use the influence of the president's office with foreign leaders for their dealings.   Your whataboutism is sickening.




And it continues with Saudi Arabia.  America first my ass.  

The left is going to come nowhere near defending Hunter the way the right continues to defend and cower to the Trump family.  But in thier defense they’ve stopped just short of saying you have to be a (white) criminal to succeed in the US and they find that admirable. Not because they don’t believe that, but they haven’t quite figured out how to magical thinking word salad that correctly.  And just to show they aren’t racist they’ve elevated Hershel Walker, a morally reprehensible black success story who will clearly do the white christian nationalist agenda and would never be labeled an educated elite. One of the good ones!


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> I disagree here.  Yes there will be investigations of Hunter.  But do you not care if he was peddling influence?  Using his father's office to enrich himself and possibly his father.  Just think to yourself for one minute that if the rolls were reversed and it was Don Jr. or Eric who had done what Hunter is accused of..........




Do I "care" from a more generic standpoint? Of course. I don't like that politicians lie, stretch the truth, duck and doge questions either. I don't like the fact connected people can land great jobs and make great money based solely on their name value.

My problem is... I don't have to wonder if the roles were reversed.. they WERE reversed. Trump and three of his adult kids broke every ethics norm in the White House. He hired his daughter and son-in-law, both of whom were wholly unqualified for the job.

I really fail to see why the right is focused on this guy who isn't running for anything, isn't working in the White House, etc. If we were in normal times and looking for things to pick on, maybe he'd be an easy person to wag a finger at, but given everything Trump has done, it comes off as a cop speeding past a murder taking place to apprehend a teenager who stole a candy bar.

If republicans - the same republicans who fought a bi-partisan commission to look into January 6, but put a suspected participant on the select committee before drawing all of their picks, who refuse to hold Trump accountable for fomenting a mob that stormed the Capitol to delay the counting of the votes... worrying about Hunter Biden seems like a really weak and lame thing to focus on.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

GermanSuplex said:


> I really fail to see why the right is focused on this guy who isn't running for anything, isn't working in the White House, etc. If we were in normal times and looking for things to pick on, maybe he'd be an easy person to wag a finger at, but given everything Trump has done, it comes off as a cop speeding past a murder taking place to apprehend a teenager who stole a candy bar.



It's just a slight of hand tactic by the party of law and order to divert attention from what Trump has done and is doing. They're even bringing up Hillary's emails as if what she did was comparable to Trump's inciting a coup and knowingly stealing highly classified documents.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> I agree. I don't think in any way it is an acquittal of Trump. I simply think people have other things to worry about. Like how to pay for food and gas.



Isn’t it a shame that the Republican Party voted against measures that were designed to help people with just those issues. You’re right, it’s not an acquittal of Trump, it’s an indictment of the entire GOP.


Herdfan said:


> I disagree here. Yes there will be investigations of Hunter. But do you not care if he was peddling influence? Using his father's office to enrich himself and possibly his father. Just think to yourself for one minute that if the rolls were reversed and it was Don Jr. or Eric who had done what Hunter is accused of..........



I think most everyone here has beat me to the punch. The rolls started out reversed. The traitor tots were selling anything they could, well before Hunter Biden’s laptop became a thing. Look at the timeline. Which came first, Ivanka and the patents in China or Hunter? 

You also need to remember, that most people want all of them investigated. Hunter is not special. Ivanka is not special. Jared is special, but that’s a different kind of special - same with Eric and Junior. Also remind yourself that Hunter did not serve in any capacity in the White House while his father was VP, unlike the traitor tots, who under normal circumstances could never have gotten any kind of security clearance.


----------



## shadow puppet

shadow puppet said:


> Anderson Cooper just showed 17 minutes of new footage showing congressional leaders' makeshift command post at Fort McNair to quell the Jan. 6 mob.  It's truly disturbing, especially viewed from their viewpoint as they were evacuated.  Many of that Jan. 6th mob were out for blood.  I still remember the hangman's noose set-up intended for Pence.
> 
> This is Trump's legacy.  It sickens me no end to hear the excuses made for him and his destruction of our democracy..  These people are in serous denial.  Damage has been done that I'm not sure we will ever fully recover from.  It scares me to death to consider what will happen if the GOP regain power of the House and/or Senate.
> 
> Trump is complicit, guilty AF and must be indicted.  But he's certainly not the only one.



For anyone interested, the 17 minutes of new footage I referenced above, it is now shared on CNN's site.  Especially for those who try and spread the lies that Pelosi did nothing in regards to asking for help.









						Video: Unseen Jan. 6 video shows congressional leaders taking refuge during at Fort McNair during riot - CNN Video
					

CNN has obtained previously unseen footage from January 6 showing the point of view from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office as the US Capitol was being breached and congressional leaders take refuge at Fort McNair, two miles from the US Capitol.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Yoused

Alli said:


> … same with Eric and Junior.




Junior, I think, is the one who posts videos on twitter where you can just about see the coke-laden snot dripping out of his nose.


----------



## shadow puppet

Nailed it.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1580974655284080640/


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> For anyone interested, the 17 minutes of new footage I referenced above, it is now shared on CNN's site.  Especially for those who try and spread the lies that Pelosi did nothing in regards to asking for help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video: Unseen Jan. 6 video shows congressional leaders taking refuge during at Fort McNair during riot - CNN Video
> 
> 
> CNN has obtained previously unseen footage from January 6 showing the point of view from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office as the US Capitol was being breached and congressional leaders take refuge at Fort McNair, two miles from the US Capitol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com




I'm still astounded that it took so long to get "all hands on deck" to enforce rule of law and restore peace and safety to the Capitol and its grounds on January 6th.

Makes you really wonder all over again since the debacle of 9/11 about our state of readiness to defend against hostilities,  whether at hands of domestic or foreign attackers.

We've potentially gained extra time to respond to North Korean ICBM attacks, through some mutually beneficial arrangements with South Korea.  Our awareness of a launch aimed at the USA is faster than if only relying on detection from Alaska.

Either way though, we're talking about a matter of *minutes*.  Yet we speak of that time as precious.

But with an attack on our own Capitol from insurrectionists walking up the road from the Ellipse after Trump's speech, it took* hours* for the National Guard actually to be deployed,  even after authorization was received.  In fact by time the bulk of those troops arrived, most of the violence had been quelled by manpower rounded up in desperation from other government agencies, and the Guards were down to searching the premises for remaining insurrectionists, ensuring that explosives were not left behind and then providing a presence to deter potential of further attempts at intrusion.

I will not discount value of the Guards' effort, as well as that of other law enforcement units summoned to assist as members of Congress dialed through every contact known to them.   But, and after trying to discount any possible waffling or delay that may have been due to partisan sympathy for the insurrectionists, i have to hope that some lessons were learned from January 6th, because the response of law and order to that attack on our Capitol was past shoddy.

We may still discount the overall chances of radicalized and hostile militia groups here in the USA to take on an organized rollout of lawful force against violence,  but since we've seen a demo of how few members of such groups it takes to help flip a rally into a violent mob,  one can hope the movers and shakers in Congress will see that "next time" the effective chain of command to summon needed force turns out to be less convoluted.

Of course one can also hope that next time the instigator of violence against a sitting Congress wouldn't be an outgoing president of the USA planning to extend his own "public service" instead of letting them do their jobs. 

I really do wonder what the hell was going on in the minds of some of the Secret Service,  DoJ and military leaders that day, as they became aware that Trump was not doing anything to redirect his followers.  He had urged them to go down to the Capitol, saying he'd "be right there with them" -- and then he went back to the WH and sat in his dining room watching the insurrection unfold on TV.

When the boss declines to lead, who might claim that right despite what the org chart suggests?

 Probably not ever going to know for sure who exactly may have thought what about that question,  at least in the near term. In fact it looked like more were dodging the call than stepping up to the plate. And maybe it's good that it might not all come to light for quite awhile.  Learning about how narrow was the escape of a government facing a coup is perhaps a dish best served up cold and by historians, not talk show hosts or podcasters.

We do know that January 6th was indeed a narrow escape for rule of law and the shape of our federal government.  We are not sure yet if aftereffects include increased popular wariness of ever getting sucked into the execution of another insurrection.  Sadly, I would say the odds there are "no".


----------



## shadow puppet

lizkat said:


> We've potentially gained extra time to respond to North Korean ICBM attacks, through some mutually beneficial arrangements with South Korea.  *Our awareness of a launch aimed at the USA is faster than if only relying on detection from Alaska.*



Quick tidbit. 

I once found (2) photos of my Dad, taken one year apart in his Air Force dress uniform, in the exact same CU pose.  The first photo was taken the year I was born but in the 2nd photo he had aged considerably.  This was at Elmendorf AFB in Anchorage, Alaska.  I half jokingly asked one of my older brothers if my birth and first year had caused my Dad to age so much.  He replied asking if I knew what my Dad was in charge of at Elmendorf.  In the event there was any hint or kind of attack on Alaska, my Dad had a very short span of time to make a decision as to who to notify and how to respond.  That's a hell of a lot of responsibility.  I can't even imagine carrying that kind of weight.


----------



## Herdfan

quagmire said:


> But it’s laughable you think enriching one self is far worse and deserving of investigations by a GOP controlled House, but dismiss the January 6 panel as no big deal, inflation is more important.




People seem to think inflation IS more important.  I am just the messenger.  You don't have to like it, but the people simply don't care.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Herdfan said:


> People seem to think inflation IS more important.  I am just the messenger.  You don't have to like it, but the people simply don't care.



also cross dressers and those pesky gays all more important. I odnt trhin kits because they dont care its because they dont ant to care. if they cared they would have to face the poor chose they made with trump and all the support.


----------



## shadow puppet

Herdfan said:


> People seem to think inflation IS more important.  I am just the messenger.  *You don't have to like it, but the people simply don't care.*



That indeed is a travesty & a perfect reflection of the damage Trump & his MAGAites have generated.

Oh and btw, I CARE.


----------



## quagmire

Herdfan said:


> People seem to think inflation IS more important.  I am just the messenger.  You don't have to like it, but the people simply don't care.




And they won’t care about Hunter for the same reason. 

I was mostly replying that you disagree that they won’t care for the same reason thinking Hunter’s assumed crimes is worse than Trump’s.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> Trump and three of his adult kids broke every ethics norm in the White House. He hired his daughter and son-in-law, both of whom were wholly unqualified for the job.




You do realize they weren't paid right?


GermanSuplex said:


> I really fail to see why the right is focused on this guy who isn't running for anything, isn't working in the White House, etc. If we were in normal times and looking for things to pick on, maybe he'd be an easy person to wag a finger at, but given everything Trump has done, it comes off as a cop speeding past a murder taking place to apprehend a teenager who stole a candy bar.




I don't really care what Hunter did.  I care what Joe did.  If Joe was profiting then there is a problem.  And that is what the GOP controlled House will work on discovering.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> People seem to think inflation IS more important.  I am just the messenger.  You don't have to like it, but the people simply don't care.





 I'll grant you that almost everyone cares about inflation.  After all, even if the grocery cart contents don't pinch the budget,  the value of one's market investments might be taking a hit, since the market remains uncertain (and unhappy) about whether the Fed's rate hikes have been sufficient, should continue or may even have gone too far in trying to cool spending without depressing growth.

It's not true that "the people simply don't care" about the insurrection, even if they are more concerned about inflation.  It is true though that opinions on the insurrection are polarized by party,  and that far more Democrats than Republicans remain concerned or think Trump should or might be charged.









						New poll asks Americans whether Trump should face charges, top midterm priorities
					

About half of Americans think former President Donald Trump should face criminal charges for his role in the deadly insurrection that took place at the U.S. Capitol, but most doubt he will be.




					www.pbs.org
				






> About half of Americans think former President Donald Trump should face criminal charges for his role in the deadly insurrection that took place at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, according to the latest PBS NewsHour/NPR/Marist poll. But far fewer – roughly a quarter – think Trump will actually be prosecuted.
> 
> Since hearings by the House committee investigating the attack began in June, new evidence and testimony have revealed how much Trump and members of his administration knew about the potential for violence, as well as the former president’s embrace of his armed supporters and his unwillingness to intervene when chaos overwhelmed the Capitol.






> While a majority of Americans overall blame Trump for what happened that day, public opinion remains divided down party lines, according to this last poll. Nearly all Democrats – 92 percent – and a majority of independents but only about one in five Republicans agree.




The question for the midterms of course is how polling sentiment about these things may translate into voter preference in November,  and how much of that will end up expressed by actual votes cast.


----------



## Herdfan

quagmire said:


> And they won’t care about Hunter for the same reason.
> 
> I was mostly replying that you disagree that they won’t care for the same reason thinking Hunter’s assumed crimes is worse than Trump’s.




You're probably correct they won't care about what Hunter did.  But they may care if there is evidence that Joe profited from stuff Hunter did.


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> The question




No, the question is why are you on here?  The Guardians just went up 1 in the 10th and have 1 on with no outs. 

I see people not caring about Jan 6th because it's over.  It happened and it's over.  The vast majority of people were not affected by it in any way.  Sure they might have been mad or happy or some other feeling in between, but it didn't affect them personally.

Inflation is affecting them.  Today.  Food prices, gas prices, home prices, now mortgage rates.  All those things affect their quality of life right now.  Sure, some may be happy of Trump is indicted, but it still will not affect their lives one bit.  Same with those who don't think he should be indicted - no real effect on their lives.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> No, the question is why are you on here?  The Guardians just went up 1 in the 10th and have 1 on with no outs.




It's bad luck to watch them live.  Bad luck for my cardiovascular system.    They have a bad habit of loading the bases and stranding them, watching the next batters strike out or hit into double plays.
EDIT:   However, the MLB app informs me Cleveland took it 4-2.   Yay!  Even up, a game apiece...



Herdfan said:


> You're probably correct they won't care about what Hunter did. But they may care if there is evidence that Joe profited from stuff Hunter did.




Get real:  Joe may even have lost some money trying to get Hunter to go to or to stick in rehab, who knows!  He has certainly been supportive of his son's recovery efforts.   Both of them acknowledge that Hunter had active drug addiction problems that vastly complicated his life. Honesty is the best policy in establishing long term recovery.  Maybe Republicans don't value honesty that much at the present time.  One could get that impression from some of the midterm campaigns.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Herdfan said:


> You do realize they weren't paid right?
> 
> 
> I don't really care what Hunter did.  I care what Joe did.  If Joe was profiting then there is a problem.  And that is what the GOP controlled House will work on discovering.



they were paid by the deals they could make because of their position. so they did not get a salary does that make it ok? remember trump did not get paid either so everything he did was ok then?


----------



## Cmaier

fooferdoggie said:


> they were paid by the deals they could make because of their position. so they did not get a salary does that make it ok? remember trump did not get paid either so everything he did was ok then?



Trump didn’t get paid by us, but he made up for it with what he got from the Saudis and the Russians.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Cmaier said:


> Trump didn’t get paid by us, but he made up for it with what he got from the Saudis and the Russians.



got a ton of taxpayer money he just did not get it as a salery.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> I see people not caring about Jan 6th because it's over. It happened and it's over. The vast majority of people were not affected by it in any way. Sure they might have been mad or happy or some other feeling in between, but it didn't affect them personally.




And I see a *lot* of people who are *still* *outraged* we almost lost our democracy that day, shredding the Constitution in the process. Burns me up no end.  We dodged a bullet. And it could very well happen again. Stay vigilant.

trump needs to face justice in order to heal that wound and set the country right. Demand it!


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> You do realize they weren't paid right?




That’s kind of like saying the robbers took their shoes off so as not to stain your carpet while they emptied your house.

They cleaned up while in office, and they never should have had the jobs in the first place: they were beyond unqualified.

As for J6, I’m glad the committee subpoenaed Trump. It’s time we set precedent. The lack of precedent in all things Trump has aided him… people don’t know how to respond when the president does the unthinkable. So the time to set the precedent for what happens when they do is NOW. I think as the dominos fall, the confidence to indict and convict will grow.

Also, WTF is this moron rambling about? How the F**K do people take this seriously? How?



			https://cdn.nucleusfiles.com/27/27b7896f-01c5-4609-93c7-742e5cb22e96/830-am-final-january-6th-committee-letter14446.pdf?utm_medium=email_hf&utm_source=ncl__&utm_campaign=20221014___sa&utm_content=__6167&_nlid=test123&_nhids=TEST


----------



## shadow puppet

> “To vote for anyone still loyal to a party led by the narcissistic sociopath who put our elected officials and our political system itself in peril is to abandon any pretense of caring whether the United States remains a constitutional democracy.”












						Donald Trump Tried to Destroy the Constitution
					

What will it take for millions of Americans to care?




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> Also, WTF is this moron rambling about? How the F**K do people take this seriously? How?




Jeeeeeez.

Somebody please send that tiny whiney toddler an FTD Pick-Me-Up Bouquet. Stat!


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> Also, WTF is this moron rambling about? How the F**K do people take this seriously? How?
> 
> 
> 
> https://cdn.nucleusfiles.com/27/27b7896f-01c5-4609-93c7-742e5cb22e96/830-am-final-january-6th-committee-letter14446.pdf?utm_medium=email_hf&utm_source=ncl__&utm_campaign=20221014___sa&utm_content=__6167&_nlid=test123&_nhids=TEST



well that should change their minds. I mean it was so well though out and backed by proof.


----------



## Herdfan

Citysnaps said:


> And I see a *lot* of people who are *still* *outraged* we almost lost our democracy that day,




And a lot of people think we never even came close.........


----------



## fooferdoggie

Herdfan said:


> And a lot of people think we never even came close.........



Yes the ones that think trump is the second Jesus.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> And a lot of people think we never even came close.........



If only Republicans were as outraged about an insurrection on the US Capital as they were Hunter Biden's laptop. 

Priorities.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

The focus on Hunter Biden is just more GOP hypocrisy meant to foment outrage among their base. I really haven't followed the Hunter story to even know what they are accusing him of doing but I can't imagine that it's even a blip on the radar of what Trump and his kids did while he was in office (foreigners staying at Trump's hotel, paying for Secret Service and staff to stay at his country clubs almost every weekend, Jared's dealings with the Saudi's, etc.) not to mention during his whole life. It's just more of what they did with the Benghazi hearings, later admitting that those were just meant to weaken Clinton's presidential chances. What Trump taught the GOP is that lying works and the bigger and more persistent the lie, the more it works. The old question "Have you no sense of decency?" comes to mind and I guess the answer is yes.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> I see people not caring about Jan 6th because it's over. It happened and it's over. The vast majority of people were not affected by it in any way. Sure they might have been mad or happy or some other feeling in between, but it didn't affect them personally.
> 
> Inflation is affecting them. Today. Food prices, gas prices, home prices, now mortgage rates. All those things affect their quality of life right now. Sure, some may be happy of Trump is indicted, but it still will not affect their lives one bit. Same with those who don't think he should be indicted - no real effect on their lives.




Some people may think "Jan 6th is over."   The planners of that insurrection saw it as a beginning.   Trump has never even said the election is "over".   He asserts against all facts in evidence and despite 60 losses in court that it was instead "stolen".   To him, his followers, and they are still many, it is not over.  To his wanna-be successors, it is not over either since they are still spouting his rubbish about stolen votes and the need to man up and deter rigged voting,  as if fraud had been proven rampant instead of practically nonexistent.

The vast majority of Americans did not attend the 1/6 event.  Many may not have spent any time watching it or clips thereafter, much less the House committee hearings.  That does not and cannot possibly mean that "they were not affected by it in any way."

Anyone who lives in a state with newly revised voting or vote-counting laws now was affected.  Those are the states with GOP-controlled legislatures that seized upon Trump's assertions of fraud in the 2020 elections. It was after all those assertions that underwrote his rationale for urging his followers on 1/6 to "fight like hell or you won't have a country."

Those legislative changes were propelled  by the failure of the insurrection to flip the 2020 Biden win to Trump.  And as a result of those election-related law changes,  it is now possible for the official in charge of certifying vote counts in some states to alter them if not liking the results. It's not just presisdential votes involved here, it's congressional and state legislative races as well.

 When the balance of power in a state's US House delegation is changed, that potentially also changes the result of a presidential election thrown into the House:  each state delegation gets 1 vote and  a state will likely vote for the candidate of its majority party.  It takes 26 to win. The Democrats held the House majority for regular business of Congress after 2020 elections,  but that does not translate to having a party majority in state delegation In fact in 2020 the Rs had majority of Congressional seats in 26 state delegations,  the Ds 22, there was 1 tie and 1 where an indie could create a tie.

January 6th was an insurrection designed to derail the usual and constitutional "counting of the electoral vores" after all 50 states had certified their election results and after the slates of electors on December 14th had cast their votes to confirm the election of Biden and Harris.  

The intent of the planners was to prevent that confirmation from taking place, to persuade the outgoing VP Pence to assert a power he did not even have (to decide for himself which party's ticket would run the executive branch for four years), and failing that, then to cause enough formal protest against electoral slates in any of several close or "battleground" states to throw the election into the House and let it pick the President.

To say that it didn't happen as planned and so no one was affected is to be naive.  It was a dress rehearsal and will undoubtedly be attempted again in future, possibly sans the insurrectionists since now it may be possible to engineer a coup from some state counting houses.  That might disappoint some drama seekers among extremist militia but it would make the pro-Trump Republican leadership happy. Shall we assume though that per Trump's original request to those militia dudes, they will be "standing back and standing by"?  Seems prudent to do so, since they haven't said they're done with him and he hasn't said he's done with them either.  He said "remember this day."  It is not forgotten.

We are all affected by this turn of events, by the fact that a coup was attempted and that the reaction to its failure was for GOP-controlled legislatures across the country to doctor on voting laws and election supervision processes, the better to facilitate a desired outcome next time.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> And a lot of people think we never even came close.........




1.  So...what do *you* think?  Did we never even come close?

2. How do you feel about the whole Jan6th insurrection and attempted coup? Ok with it?  Does trump bear any responsibility fomenting it and failing to act timely before the Capitol was trashed and law enforcement injured/died as a result of defending your democracy and Constitution? Do you feel for those law enforcement officers who were injured/died?


----------



## Herdfan

Citysnaps said:


> 1.  So...what do *you* think?  Did we never even come close?
> 
> 2. How do you feel about the whole Jan6th insurrection and attempted coup? Ok with it?  Does trump bear any responsibility fomenting it and failing to act timely before the Capitol was trashed and law enforcement injured/died as a result of defending your democracy and Constitution?




I see all this as two separate incidents.

What happened at the Capitol was a bunch of idiots. There is no way these yahoos were going to overthrow anything.  They should be punished.

As for Trump trying to get Pence to overturn the election, Nope.  Pence did not have the power or authority to do so.  So it wasn't going to happen.

I simply don't think our country was at risk.  Nor apparently do a lot of people or the Jan 6 hearings would have had more viewers. People simply don't care as much as many on here do.

I will say Pelosi didn't do the hearings any favors when she went against long-standing tradition and refused to let McCarthy pick who he wanted on the committee from the GOP side.  At that point, many Republicans saw it as a sham.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Herdfan said:


> I will say Pelosi didn't do the hearings any favors when she went against long-standing tradition and refused to let McCarthy pick who he wanted on the committee from the GOP side.  At that point, many Republicans saw it as a sham.



republicans were appointed they refused. then McCarthy wanted to put in people who were involved in the insurrection. I* mean a pedo and Marjorie trailer grease you think those two would have added anything to it? sorry republicans chose not to get involved so they screwed themselves over on it.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> I will say Pelosi didn't do the hearings any favors when she went against long-standing tradition and *refused to let McCarthy pick who he wanted on the committee from the GOP side.* At that point, many Republicans saw it as a sham.




You mean Jim Jordan? Based on his history of unruly theatrics that would have been incredibly disruptive (though no doubt entertaining for some).

The good news is there were two Republicans who care deeply about our democracy and Constitution. And they did an outstanding job helping to get to the truth.

_"At that point, many Republicans saw it as a sham."_

Did you see it as a sham?  If so please elaborate.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> As for Trump trying to get Pence to overturn the election, Nope. Pence did not have the power or authority to do so. So it wasn't going to happen.




Do we not think that a US President just trying to get the VP to derail the confirmation process and overturn the election was a starkly memorable act?

 It was certainly as reprehensible as Trump trying to get the Georgia secretary of state to "find" another 11780 votes to put the state back in the Trump column where The Don thought it belonged.

The language of the original Electoral Count Act is murky enough that scholars on both sides of the partisan divide spent time in 2020 trying to come to a definitive opinion on wiggle room for vice presidential action.  But, the preponderance of that research came down on the side of the VP's role as ceremonial and that is what Pence's own researchers told him.

The proposed Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022 (S4573) is bipartisan and has 31 cosponsors in the Senate, 17 Democrats and 14 Republicans.  Among other things it does clarify the VP's role is strictly ministerial, i.e, he opens and counts votes but may not change them.​​The bill also makes it harder to protest a slate of electors on the day of the count --right now a single Senator or House member can object;  the new law would require 1/5 of both the House and Senate to object--  and it also limits ability of a state to declare "a failed election," a case in which the state legislature can then overturn the popular vote.​​That provision was added because some states in 2020 that had Republican dominated legislatures, but where the states' voters had gone for Biden, actually wanted to declare "a failed election" under the 1845 law and declare Trump the winner of the state's electoral votes. The new legislation says that a state legislature can only deem its election "failed" in case of "extraordinary and catastrophic events." Not everyone is happy with that as sufficient limitation, all things considered,  and so alternatives are in negotiation.​
Bottom line though?  On that day of 1/6/21,  it is *only *because Mike Pence declined to do more than open and count the electoral votes as they were presented, and relay objections  to the House and Senate for their separate considerations,  that the country was not thrown into complete chaos by having one man essentially say _forget the election, the winner is my boss here, Don Trump._

What do we imagine might have happened then?   All the Democrats in the House and Senate would have sighed and said_ gee, and here we thought we had it..._ Come on! 

What would the Joint Chiefs have decided to do with their allegiance when January 20 rolled around and Trump refused to leave if Pence had "extended" that presidency...  and Biden meanwhile had a case pending in SCOTUS arguing that a Pence intervention in the electoral count was illegal? We are fortunate we didn't have to find out.

Sure, Pence is a calculating guy and has largely come off as a sycophant because that was the best way to stay in the mix of potential inheritors of Trump's followers,  at least until Trump started pressuring him to flip the election.   But,  his adherence to traditional views of the VP's role in the electoral vote confirmation was crucial in 2021, and his political courage was admirable.  He's not an election stealer, whatever else he is. Considering some of the less scrupulous GOP officials hanging around the Capitol on January 6, I say the nation was fortunate that none of them stood in Mike Pence's shoes.

Do we think that bipartisan members of Congress would mess with the Electoral Count Act if they felt that what happened (and, didn't happen) on January 6th were no big deals?

It wasn't just the violent incursion into the Capitol and ransacking of members' offices.  It was about the fact that a President of the USA pressured his own Vice President to overturn a free and fair election because he thought he saw wiggle room in our rule of law.  And it was about that particular vice president happening to disagree,  and sticking to his opinion, and refusing to cave in to Trump's insane demand.

How you can possibly suggest that "it wasn't going to happen" though, that is beyond me.

 Hundreds of scholars delved into that question of VP authority for weeks and the Congress itself has obviously now figured it was not a slam dunk or a no-brainer for Pence to come down on the side of accepting the electoral votes as proffered, and merely relaying objections as usual when they were made under rule of the law as it existed on that date. 

We dodged a bullet that day for sure.  The day needs remembrance not just for infamy but as a turning point in our complacency about living in a democracy. I say the republic was hanging by a thread and on the integrity of a few people in the right place at the right time.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> And a lot of people think we never even came close.........




I guess the question is what do you consider to be “close”?

This truly baffles me. At what point does Trump cross a line for you? You seem legit more outraged about things you _think_ Biden _may _have been engaged in based on pure conjecture while your most severe criticisms of things we KNOW Trump has done are at best “Well, I wish he hadn’t done that”.

The events of January 6 lay bare so much of the rank hypocrisy by republicans beyond the obvious attempted overthrow of democracy… do you think a group of BLM protesters would have gotten that close to the Capitol that day? Why are the republicans who supports law enforcement silent about the beating of cops and refusing to comply with subpoenas? Why do they refuse to testify in other cases in other states? Why should Hillary rot in jail for setting up an e-mail server while Trump should skate for the knowing and willing theft of sensitive documents? You guys are more concerned about the potential for classified documents to be mishandled instead of the actual mishandling of classified documents - the theft of them and the obstruction in an attempt to not return them.

Nobody like to cede ground to the other side, but that attempt to prove to the other side that your guy isn’t as bad as he’s made out to be just allows him to keep doing stuff that proves the exact opposite point you’re trying to make. It’s enabling, pure and simple. 

I mean, any comparison you can make regarding any past president falls short when the last guy’s supporters showed up and hung gallows while marching through the Capitol looking to find elected officials. There is no comparison. If you guys were to finally stop rubber stamping all of Trump’s bad acts or giving the most tepid “condemnations” ever, maybe he’d disappear and your concerns about lower-hanging fruit - like Hunter Biden - would come across as more sincere. Why would I be more concerned about Hunter Biden’s personal misdeeds in the private sector than I would be Trump’s children in the White House, co-mingling their business affairs with the presidency and government office, hosting political gigs at the White House like it’s a fundraiser at his golf club?

Anything you can allege about the other side, one single man - Trump - has done pretty much all that and worse.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> I will say Pelosi didn't do the hearings any favors when she went against long-standing tradition and refused to let McCarthy pick who he wanted on the committee from the GOP side. At that point, many Republicans saw it as a sham.




She did the country a favor.  She would not have rejected serious picks for that panel.  Jordan wanted it to be a circus,  like he wanted the impeachment hearings to be the circuses that he had tried to make them become from his side of the aisle.

If some Republicans saw it as a sham at the point Pelosi basically said "not this time!" then they should have snapped out of it when seeing the methodical way in which the entire committee including the two Pelosi-selected Republicans have approached their task.

There was nothing fake or showboating about what has been presented.  Video evidence, deposition excerpts, questions and answers under oath, no partisan jousting over some point offered by a member or witness.   We are left to consider the evidence and the panel's narration and make of it what we will.

If one has not watched the hearings or read mainstream accounts of them then it's possible to pick up on a suggestion that it's been a sham hearing.  I guess then one could also end up surprised that some of the insurrectionists shown in the video clips have been charged, taken pleas or been convicted and sentenced, etc.   Likewise then one could be surprised if Garland later indicts some principals for helping plan, finance or shape an event that was not "just a protest gone bad."  The hearing is not a sham, and neither was the 1/6 insurrection.


----------



## Yoused

In 1845, there was no VP to count the votes. Nor in 1869, 1877, 1885, 1905 or as recently as 1949. They must have some sort of fallback.


----------



## lizkat

Yoused said:


> In 1845, there was no VP to count the votes. Nor in 1869, 1877, 1885, 1905 or as recently as 1949. They must have some sort of fallback.




President pro tempore of the senate generally takes up the VP's duties when VP is absent or the post is temporarily unfilled.

Now a president pro tempore of the Senate is not allowed to cast a tie breaking vote in the course of regular Senate business.

But electoral vote counting is a different process, and there don't seem to be any other specific limitations on filling in for the VP, just that one, that he cannot break ties in regular Senate votes.






						U.S. Senate: About the President Pro Tempore
					






					www.senate.gov
				




The president pro tempore of the Senate can preside jointly with the Speaker of the House whenever the chambers are in joint session,  same as the VP would usually do,  and the January 6 vote counting process does occur in joint session.  But again, that session and that vote count are not matters of Congressional business as usual.

There must be a record of who did count those electoral votes in the years you cited...

EDIT:  meanwhile at least the Poynter Institute says if there's no VP, the president pro tempore of the Senate (and not the House Speaker) is who counts the electoral votes in the joint session convened for that purpose.  That was in a piece they did for PolitiFact: 

https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/jan/04/counting-electoral-votes-jan-6-what-you-need-know/


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> You do realize they weren't paid right?



Ivanka was paid as a consultant. There’s that.


Herdfan said:


> You're probably correct they won't care about what Hunter did.  But they may care if there is evidence that Joe profited from stuff Hunter did.



So now you’re just going to make up something and throw it out there to see if it gets any traction? WTH. Nobody has ever said anything about Joe profiting from anything Hunter may have done.


lizkat said:


> President pro tempore of the senate generally takes up the VP's duties when VP is absent or the post is temporarily unfilled.



This is why it was important to find out why Grassley was so sure Pence would not be at the final count and that he would be there in his stead.


----------



## Yoused

He wanted (important) people to die so that he could impose martial law


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> He's just taking after Eric Holder.
> 
> And I have said this before, but now CNN is saying it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Voters may care more about the cost of French fries than January 6 panel's compelling evidence | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> The House select committee investigating the US Capitol insurrection long ago dropped the notion of being a narrowly focused quest for the facts as members use their probe to try to defend democracy in its intensifying struggle with Donald Trump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com



Bad equivalence argument.


----------



## Huntn

quagmire said:


> If people have more things to worry about than Trump inciting an insurrection against the US and don’t care to hold him accountable then they won’t care about Hunter for the same reason.
> 
> But if Hunter is guilty, he should go to jail. Trump should be in jail for January 6th.
> 
> But it’s laughable you think enriching one self is far worse and deserving of investigations by a GOP controlled House, but dismiss the January 6 panel as no big deal, inflation is more important.



Consider the source.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

One thing noteworthy in the hearings was the video showing Mitch McConnell huddled with Pelosi and Schumer making phone calls to get help. Remember how shortly after the riot he said Trump was "practically and morally responsible" for the attack on the Capitol? Then some time after that he said he would still vote for Trump. What a piece of work that guy is. "Law and order," "family values" and "strict Constitutionalism" were just empty phrases, all of which Trump singlehandedly violated.


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> Nobody has ever said anything about Joe profiting from anything Hunter may have done.




Lot's of people are saying it.  The media is just ignoring them.

But I guess we will wait for the hearings.........


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> Lot's of people are saying it.  The media is just ignoring them.
> 
> But I guess we will wait for the hearings.........




How is Joe profiting off of what Hunter does?


----------



## Herdfan

Citysnaps said:


> How is Joe profiting off of what Hunter does?




10% for the "Big Guy".

Look, I know no one here wants to even think about Biden profiting off Hunter.  But Joe has denied time and time again that he never had anything to do with Hunter's business.  Then a picture shows up or a visitor's log has names on it or an email will come to light.  So something was going on.

I think it will get ugly once the GOP has a chance to put some people under oath and ask questions.

I think some of you might be surprised.


----------



## shadow puppet

Herdfan said:


> Look, I know no one here wants to even think about Biden profiting off Hunter.  But Joe has denied time and time again that he never had anything to do with Hunter's business.  Then a picture shows up or a visitor's log has names on it or an email will come to light.  So something was going on.
> 
> I think it will get ugly once the GOP has a chance to put some people under oath and ask questions.
> 
> I think some of you might be surprised.



If Hunter Biden is guilty, he should suffer the consequences.

But no way in hell are you ever going to convince me that Joe Biden is anywhere near the evil spawn that Donald Trump is.  No way.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> 10% for the "Big Guy".
> 
> Look, I know no one here wants to even think about Biden profiting off Hunter.  But Joe has denied time and time again that he never had anything to do with Hunter's business.  Then a picture shows up or a visitor's log has names on it or an email will come to light.  So something was going on.
> 
> I think it will get ugly once the GOP has a chance to put some people under oath and ask questions.
> 
> I think some of you might be surprised.




_"I think it will get ugly once the GOP has a chance to put some people under oath and ask questions."_

Before that could happen there would need to be some serious allegations *backed by irrefutable evidence*.

As of yet, I'm only hearing stuff that amounts to well, Hunter did "something" illegal and therefore Joe is complicit with respect to whatever that "something" was.   With zero evidence to back whatever it was up, and how it connects to Joe doing something illegal.

Pretty weak sauce.

If some kind of* irrefutable evidence* does come forward, linking Joe to some kind of criminal behavior in connection with Hunter's business dealings, I have no problem with that being investigated by the DOJ, followed by charges if it meets the elements of some kind of crime being committed.

Dollars to donuts, I suspect there will be nothing there. As it is now, it's just a bunch of lazy innuendo backed by zero evidence.


----------



## Pumbaa

Just give the Bidens a thread of their own.


----------



## Herdfan

shadow puppet said:


> If Hunter Biden is guilty, he should suffer the consequences.
> 
> But no way in hell are you ever going to convince me that Joe Biden is anywhere near the evil spawn that Donald Trump is.  No way.




Won't try to.  They are complete and separate issues.

Except I think there is a parallel here.  People were willing to overlook things Biden might have done to as a means to get rid of Trump just like Trump was the means to keep Hillary out.  Maybe we need to start picking better politicians on both sides.  Give people someone to vote FOR instead of AGAINST.


----------



## lizkat

You want to see something move people's minds off enigmatic rumors of what's on Hunter Biden's laptop,  then check out the foundering hole in the ground seeking money that is Trump's Truth Social, umbrella parent of which is (or has been) due (or overdue) to be welded at the hip to a Florida SPAC.

The piece ran in the Washington Post; the paywall has been removed.

*Co-founder of Trump’s media company details Truth Social’s bitter infighting*

Currently the merger of Trump's media umbrella outfit (TMTG, or Trump Media) with the SPAC financing it is in limbo regarding two separate investigations, one by SDNY and another by the SEC.  The SPAC owner declined even to say where one substantial investment came from. Wire transfer was turned up from offshore (Dominica) and yeah it was in cryptocurrency.  

Donald Trump owns 90% of the umbrella company and was pressing an employee to sign over the bulk of his own minority stake to.... surprise: Melania.   The guy said no because of taxation issues, and later got fired.  Devin Nunes makes $750k as CEO of TMTG.  Trump boys Eric and Don Jr. were originally coming around asking for a piece of the action.  Don Jr landed on the board.  Trump himself and Don Jr. came off that board of directors about a week before the SDNY and SEC subpoenas were issued last June.  So Trump holds a 90% stake without a seat on the board, but hey.  How's that for a no-show job.   If the merger goes through it's been said that the fully capitalized company will be worth around $1.3 billion...

But, even the action on Truth Social has been unhelpful to investors, supposed to have 50 million users by 2024, so far just 4 million. The SPAC that eventually targeted the Trump Media umbrella for acquisition was trading at 175, now sits at 18.  A hundred million dollars in a separate SPAC investment called a PIPE sits in limbo awaiting completion of the merger, with the unidentified investors unhappy over the delay and uncertainty of legal outcomes.

 Meanwhile Trump has occasionally talked about rejoining Twitter after Musk completes his buy.  This of course would essentially make the Truth Social platform worthless but it's not entirely clear Musk would go for it despite his alleged advocacy of "free speech."   So far there has not been known advance of the Trump Media group's earlier proposed "one app like" extension of Truth Social from a social media platform to include components like shopping, banking...

The SPAC legal issues are indeed unbelievably convoluted, not least because two SPACs owned by the same private banker were serially involved with the targeted Trump-related company in a manner and with timing that may have been illegal.  Well maybe it's not incredibly convoluted,  for a SPACs owner foolish enough to want to merge with a Trump business.   Maybe the guy figured on some loose oversight of money flows.  What he didn't figure on, apparently, was somebody going to the SEC as a whistleblower about any of it.

Hard to decide if the stench is more about straight up incompetence or just corruption.


----------



## Edd

Herdfan said:


> Won't try to.  They are complete and separate issues.
> 
> Except I think there is a parallel here.  People were willing to overlook things Biden might have done to as a means to get rid of Trump just like Trump was the means to keep Hillary out.  Maybe we need to start picking better politicians on both sides.  Give people someone to vote FOR instead of AGAINST.



There’s more of a false equivalence posed by you than a parallel.


----------



## shadow puppet

Herdfan said:


> Won't try to.  They are complete and separate issues.



Thank you.  Because yes, they are vastly different issues _and people_.


Herdfan said:


> Except I think there is a parallel here.  People were willing to overlook things Biden might have done to as a means to get rid of Trump just like Trump was the means to keep Hillary out.  Maybe we need to start picking better politicians on both sides.  Give people someone to vote FOR instead of AGAINST.



I agree we definitely need other choices on both sides.  But as far as comparing Biden to the level of Trump and his narcissistic joy of rendering asunder our country and democracy - there is and never will be, any comparison.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Lot's of people are saying it. The media is just ignoring them.



For years we heard TFG refer to “lots of people,” but it was always just him. Can you point us in the direction of any of these people other than remote conspiracy theory sites?


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> Except I think there is a parallel here.  People were willing to overlook things Biden might have done to as a means to get rid of Trump just like Trump was the means to keep Hillary out.  Maybe we need to start picking better politicians on both sides.  Give people someone to vote FOR instead of AGAINST.




I don't think anyone's willing to overlook anything the Biden's may have done. It's just that allegations of tax evasion and lying on a gun permit pale in comparison to what we've seen Trump pull.

The only reason why Hunter Biden is such a big topic of conversation among the Republicans is because he's a distraction from the considerably worse bullshit they're willfully ignoring.


----------



## Citysnaps

Renzatic said:


> The only reason why Hunter Biden is such a big topic of conversation among the Republicans is because he's a distraction from the considerably worse bullshit they're willfully ignoring.




Perfectly summed up.

I bookend trump's reign starting with spastically mocking/imitating a respected NYT journalist disabled with a cerebral palsy-like disease during a 2016 primary campaign speech, and ending with fomenting an insurrection and attempted coup by "his people" who trashed the United States Capitol. And failing to act timely to step up and stop it.

So... what exactly has Joe Biden done other than act presidential (rather than a whiney aggrieved child) while  leading the country?  What are his alleged crimes and where is the evidence?


----------



## Eric

Renzatic said:


> I don't think anyone's willing to overlook anything the Biden's may have done. It's just that allegations of tax evasion and lying on a gun permit pale in comparison to what we've seen Trump pull.
> 
> The only reason why Hunter Biden is such a big topic of conversation among the Republicans is because he's a distraction from the considerably worse bullshit they're willfully ignoring.



I presume the only reason we're even discussing him here is because Herdfan watches Fox News a lot, because none (and I mean NONE) of the other networks will give it the time of day. The only place this has any legs is in the conspiratorial right wing fringes.


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> Won't try to.  They are complete and separate issues.
> 
> Except I think there is a parallel here.  People were willing to overlook things Biden might have done to as a means to get rid of Trump just like Trump was the means to keep Hillary out.  Maybe we need to start picking better politicians on both sides.  Give people someone to vote FOR instead of AGAINST.



You are failing at sounding reasonable, your agenda is transparent. With your continued equivalence arguments, you are being way too fair, dismissing, and pushing a defacto defense argument (_they/we are all alike), to defend _the worst person in modern US history, a GIANT Corrupt Oozing , Mentally Ill POS.

The negative attention Trump has gotten is not a political vendetta, it was earned, just like bank robbers have the police after them, for robbing the bank. I suppose you’d have equivalence arguments ready for them too or is it just your corrupt Right Wing Ass Hat politicians you have fond feelings for? He and his MAGA followers are threats to the continued existence of the USA. Might that be you too? 

Your Biden-Trump-Hillary argument is ridiculous equivalence. In that triangle there is just one giant Shit Bag Who outshines the others in all aspects There is a huge difference in supporting a mediocre politician to remove a real no-shit villain, versus supporting the villain to prop up your bankrupt, corrupt political party, who  desires to tear down the country, make corruption the norm,  eradicating civil/human/individual rights that interferes with the perceived GOP’s ability to hold offive.

 As far as overlooking what President Biden has done, what? Produce  something other than the usual Right Wing Fairy Tales and I’m not talking about Hunter. If he has broken the law then I want him to get his day in court. But by the metric, you should be screaming 10x fold for Trump to be prosecuted, but instead what we see in this forum are continued equivalence arguments from you.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Alli said:


> For years we heard TFG refer to “lots of people,” but it was always just him. Can you point us in the direction of any of these people other than remote conspiracy theory sites?



so he has one person saying it I guess.


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> I presume the only reason we're even discussing him here is because Herdfan watches Fox News a lot, because none (and I mean NONE) of the other networks will give it the time of day. The only place this has any legs is in the conspiratorial right wing fringes.




To find anything in mainstream press about " the Bidens and Ukraine" except for retrospective references, you have to go back at least three years.  Prosecutors in Ukraine had just then spent two years looking into allegations of corruption at Burisma,  and found no reason  --none-- to charge the younger Biden or point fingers at the father either.   And they said so, repeatedly, to multiple newspapers of record around the world.









						Burisma, The Bidens And Ukraine’s Bid To Be Energy Independent
					

The Ukrainian natural gas Burisma is now front-page news. What is it and how has it ensnared the Bidens and enveloped the USA in controversy?




					www.forbes.com
				




I'm actually surprised the Rs still even want to harp on "corruption" and "Ukraine" considering the subject matter of Trump's first impeachment.

But then look at us right here, we're in a thread about the 1/6 insurrection and having to hammer away at the facts about "the Bidens and Ukraine"...    bottom line the Republicans right now will risk almost any kind of argumentative backlash if they can just *distract attention* from the ongoing debacle of their ever having underwritten the aspirations of Donald John Trump to overthrow his own sitting government to illegally extend his presidency.


----------



## Renzatic

Eric said:


> I presume the only reason we're even discussing him here is because Herdfan watches Fox News a lot, because none (and I mean NONE) of the other networks will give it the time of day. The only place this has any legs is in the conspiratorial right wing fringes.




To be fair, there is a story there. It's just not anywhere near as scandalous as the Trump faithful so fervently wishes it it to be.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Renzatic said:


> To be fair, there is a story there. It's just not anywhere near as scandalous as the Trump faithful so fervently wishes it it to be.



It's hard to put much faith into the seriousness of the Hunter alleged scandal based on the GOP's history e.g. the multiple Benghazi hearings. It's just a desperate attempt to distract and total hypocrisy as they to a large extent still support the orange traitor, even going to the extent of bashing the FBI for retrieving stolen highly classified documents from Crime-A-Lago after they had praised the FBI for investigating Hillary's emails. And that sleeze Ted Cruz accusing the FBI of being political. So just because there's a Democratic president any action against a Republican is political, even when that Republican has stolen and hid classified documents?


----------



## Citysnaps

In case anyone else is interested:








			https://capehartoct18.splashthat.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=retention&utm_campaign=wp_pw_ret_WPLive_101622&wpisrc=pw_ret_WPLive_101622


----------



## Cmaier

Trump stole more money here than Hunter Biden got.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1582043371178455042/


----------



## fooferdoggie

Cmaier said:


> Trump stole more money here than Hunter Biden got.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1582043371178455042/



like we could expect anything else.


----------



## rdrr

fooferdoggie said:


> like we could expect anything else.



But we cannot expect any consequences for Trump and his family.  Instead there will be the whataboutism from the Right, "What about Hunter Biden?"


----------



## Yoused

rdrr said:


> whataboutism from the Right, "What about Hunter Biden?"




How many damn times do we have to say it? 

*Projection.*​


----------



## Herdfan

Cmaier said:


> Trump stole more money here than Hunter Biden got.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1582043371178455042/




Probably not a comparison you want to make:









						Joe Biden Also Profited off the Secret Service. It Was Also Wrong
					

If you browse the database of federal spending, available at USAspending.gov, you’ll find lots of Lockheed Martins, lots of Amazons, and thousands of small businesses among the federal vendors. You’ll also find two entries for Joseph R. Biden, Jr., the former vice president and former Democratic...




					www.aei.org
				






rdrr said:


> But we cannot expect any consequences for Trump and his family.  Instead there will be the whataboutism from the Right, "What about Hunter Biden?"




Since you asked:









						Secret Service renting mansion for over $30,000 to protect Hunter Biden
					

Secret Service chose Malibu property to be as close as possible to president’s son, report says




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Probably not a comparison you want to make:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Biden Also Profited off the Secret Service. It Was Also Wrong
> 
> 
> If you browse the database of federal spending, available at USAspending.gov, you’ll find lots of Lockheed Martins, lots of Amazons, and thousands of small businesses among the federal vendors. You’ll also find two entries for Joseph R. Biden, Jr., the former vice president and former Democratic...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aei.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since you asked:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secret Service renting mansion for over $30,000 to protect Hunter Biden
> 
> 
> Secret Service chose Malibu property to be as close as possible to president’s son, report says
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com



I think the following sums it up nicely, even though it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.


> Reportedly, the Secret Service paid Trump in just three months what it had paid Biden in more than six years. In 2017, the Secret Service rented a three-bedroom cottage at Trump’s New Jersey golf course for three whole months, paying $17,000 a month. That is, taxpayers paid as much for one summer of the Trump cottage as they did for two years of the Biden cottage.


----------



## lizkat

The whole thing is problematic.  You can't just pitch a tent in the backyard and tell the guys to pee in the corner of the fencing over there.  I mean you like to think the guys protecting you are not carrying a grudge about how they are treated.   On the other hand the protectees are likely to stay in pretty nice digs so in an era of exorbitant rent and real estate values, what to do?


----------



## fooferdoggie

Herdfan said:


> Probably not a comparison you want to make:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Biden Also Profited off the Secret Service. It Was Also Wrong
> 
> 
> If you browse the database of federal spending, available at USAspending.gov, you’ll find lots of Lockheed Martins, lots of Amazons, and thousands of small businesses among the federal vendors. You’ll also find two entries for Joseph R. Biden, Jr., the former vice president and former Democratic...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aei.org



excpet thats what the secred service chose they did not chage them rent like trump did so the money did no go into their pockets like it did trump. remember the guy who served for free???


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> Probably not a comparison you want to make:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Biden Also Profited off the Secret Service. It Was Also Wrong
> 
> 
> If you browse the database of federal spending, available at USAspending.gov, you’ll find lots of Lockheed Martins, lots of Amazons, and thousands of small businesses among the federal vendors. You’ll also find two entries for Joseph R. Biden, Jr., the former vice president and former Democratic...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aei.org



Did you post the wrong link?


----------



## Yoused

Pumbaa said:


> Did you post the wrong link?




America Enterprise Institute is a Tea Party sponsor.


----------



## Pumbaa

Yoused said:


> America Enterprise Institute is a Tea Party sponsor.



Just implying that the linked content didn’t even come close to living up to the hype preceding it…


----------



## ronntaylor

Herdfan said:


> Probably not a comparison you want to make:



You should have been looking into the mirror when you posted the above. From *your *posted link:



> ...That is, taxpayers paid as much for one summer of the Trump cottage as they did for two years of the Biden cottage.
> 
> These numbers dwarf the Biden numbers, which makes them more ethically troubling. They are also more troubling because they are more unnecessary. Biden was getting protection at his home. Trump is getting protection at his very expensive clubs. His decision to stay in these places drives up the price to the taxpayer of Trump’s protection, and it ensures that rents are flowing to Trump.




And as I stated earlier, Mango stayed at his properties every damn opportunity possible. The cost for him and his family is more than several predecessors combined.


----------



## Herdfan

Yoused said:


> America Enterprise Institute is a Tea Party sponsor.




That same (almost exact) story is on many outlets.


----------



## Yoused

Herdfan said:


> That same (almost exact) story is on many outlets.



"Story"? Do most "stories" you see have a little box or line at the top that says "Op-Ed", like that particular "story"?


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> That same (almost exact) story is on many outlets.



Any of those living up to the _“Probably not a comparison you want to make” _hype?


----------



## rdrr

Herdfan said:


> Since you asked:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secret Service renting mansion for over $30,000 to protect Hunter Biden
> 
> 
> Secret Service chose Malibu property to be as close as possible to president’s son, report says
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com



Do the Biden's profit off of the $30,000/month mansion?


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> That same (almost exact) story is on many outlets.



Yes, and they all make TFG out to be a greedy, selfish bastard. The comparison makes Biden look quite charitable.


----------



## Huntn

Alli said:


> Yes, and they all make TFG out to be a greedy, selfish bastard. The comparison makes Biden look quite charitable.



The game from the other side, the equivalence defense.


----------



## Cmaier

Trump and his lawyers were committing a crime, so Judge Carter says no attorney-client privilege for documents that prove that Trump knew he was lying about Georgia election totals but lied in his signed verification.



			https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.841840/gov.uscourts.cacd.841840.372.0.pdf


----------



## Cmaier

Here’s where Trump committed perjury.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cmaier said:


> Trump and his lawyers were committing a crime, so Judge Carter says no attorney-client privilege for documents that prove that Trump knew he was lying about Georgia election totals but lied in his signed verification.
> 
> 
> 
> https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.841840/gov.uscourts.cacd.841840.372.0.pdf




OK, but that was the only time Trump knowingly lied.   Unless you count the thousands of other recorded times he lied during his Presidency, but that’s being nitpicky.   Maybe he can use the "every time I open my mouth" defense.  It’s not really fair to call him out on specific lies when lying is just kind of his thing.


----------



## Citysnaps

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Maybe he can use the "every time I open my mouth" defense.




And that a pent-up horde of lies and flies always come out as a result?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Cue the “all politicians lie” apologists. Remind me how many other times Presidential (and party and their news media) lies caused patriotic tourists to switch gears to attempt to violently overthrow the government and dismantle democracy. When the Supreme Court handed the Presidency to W Bush I don’t recall the bulk of the Democrat party whining about it years later and making it their entire party platform.

Watching the Hostages documentary on HBO about the Iranian hostage crisis in the 70’s and I see some parallels with Jan. 6th. Initially it was orchestrated by college students who didn’t have a master plan and only planned to occupy the embassy for a couple days. The Ayatollah wasn’t aware of it until after it happened but eventually signed off on it and yadda, yadda, yadda decades of suffering in Iran and tensions with the west as a result. So does it really matter if “a handful of knuckleheads” didn’t know what they were doing on Jan. 6th? Ayatollah Trump continues to sign off on it.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Cue the “all politicians lie” apologists




Yeah, the Rs are certainly going to roll that one out.

However, Trump signing off on information he knew to be false --in a document prepared to be a part of a court filing-- is not like tweeting that he was misquoted in some newspaper and never, never eats hamburgers.

Trump's biggest problems are that neither the court system nor the free press are under his thumb...  YET.

He is in a lot of trouble.  Of course if each of us had 25c for each time we may have said that about that guy, then collectively we'd be looking at some pile of dough by now.


----------



## Cmaier

I have been in front of Judge Carter multiple times; just got a case dismissed in the last year from his court in fact.  Trump is slandering him.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1583113786772582400/


----------



## Edd

Cmaier said:


> I have been in front of Judge Carter multiple times; just got a case dismissed in the last year from his court in fact.  Trump is slandering him.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1583113786772582400/



Perhaps this is a legal strategy you’ve never considered. Slander the judge, mid-case. Trump has a lot to teach us all.


----------



## lizkat

Edd said:


> Perhaps this is a legal strategy you’ve never considered. Slander the judge, mid-case. Trump has a lot to teach us all.





Possibly he's trying to reinforce a notion that he _*truly believes*_ the election was "Rigged and Stolen" and so clearly he cannot also believe that the statements he signed were false. 

Don't think it's going to fly.  He's on record with some sworn witnesses who have said that Trump had acknowledged to them that he'd lost.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Lets insult the guy who may find you guilty what could possibly go wrong? the same old with trump hey if it worked before it should work now.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> Lets insult the guy who may find you guilty what could possibly go wrong? the same old with trump hey if it worked before it should work now.




Imagine being his counsel. 

His final defense before SCOTUS, btw, will be that he was deprived of adequate counsel and so of his right to due process.


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> Imagine being his counsel.
> 
> His final defense before SCOTUS, btw, will be that he was deprived of adequate counsel and so of his right to due process.



also that you will need your own lawyer when done with trump. Also maybe your rep is down the toilet.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> also that you will need your own lawyer when done with trump. Also maybe your rep is down the toilet.




Yes, anyone who has provided counsel for Trump must be lawyered up by now on their own account.  So also the attorneys now still trying to shepherd him through all the legal jeopardy he has landed in (thanks to his own initiatives and made worse by incessant mouthing off).

Hard to say about the elections.  I fear the House will fall to the Rs. 

"Crime and inflation" ads run rampant all over the net and on television,  and raised awareness of such close-to-home factors do sell in pretty well.​​This even if you point out that (for instance) that overall death by gun violence is sharply down since 2021 and inflation cannot be laid at the foot of any president including the current one.​
People see news of a mugging down the road and they know what they just paid for a box of crackers, so they see the barrage of ads and can end up thinking it's  "time for a change".


----------



## lizkat

How about this for working around refusing a subpoena?   No lawyer will accept service of it...









						January 6 committee can’t find a lawyer to accept Trump subpoena
					

Multiple attorneys who represent Mr Trump in other legal disputes say they haven’t been authorised to accept service of process on his behalf




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> How about this for working around refusing a subpoena?   No lawyer will accept service of it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> January 6 committee can’t find a lawyer to accept Trump subpoena
> 
> 
> Multiple attorneys who represent Mr Trump in other legal disputes say they haven’t been authorised to accept service of process on his behalf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com



just put a parachute on it and fly over the crime family's home and drop it from 1000 feet up. makes you wonder if they are just lying to delay it?


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> just put a parachute on it and fly over the crime family's home and drop it from 1000 feet up. makes you wonder if they are just lying to delay it?




He's not the first to try to dodge service of a subpoena.  They'll find a way....


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> He's not the first to try to dodge service of a subpoena.  They'll find a way....



I got it use the above attached to a happy meal and a gopro to record that he got it.


----------



## Renzatic

fooferdoggie said:


> I got it use the above attached to a happy meal and a gopro to record that he got it.




Hey, don't talk smack about people wanting Happy Meals. I've been trying to get one of those ghost buckets for a week now.


----------



## Alli

On a side note (because TFG is in the midst of so many suits), I wonder if he’ll actually present DNA.


----------



## lizkat

Well this is not a surprise, but will doubtless be appealed.   Bannon gets 4 months in the slam for defying a subpoena to appear before the 1/6 committee.    A little reminder for The Don about what choices lie ahead for him, after he is finally served his own subpoena to appear.









						Bannon gets 4 months behind bars for defying 1/6 subpoena
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — Steve Bannon, a longtime ally of former President Donald Trump, was sentenced Friday to serve four months behind bars after defying a subpoena from the House committee investigating the Jan.




					apnews.com
				






> U.S. District Judge Carl Nichols allowed Bannon to stay free pending appeal and also imposed a fine of $6,500 as part of the sentence. Bannon was convicted in July of two counts of contempt of Congress: one for refusing to sit for a deposition and the other for refusing to provide documents.
> 
> Nichols handed down the sentence after saying the law was clear that contempt of Congress is subject to a mandatory minimum sentence of at least one month behind bars. Bannon’s lawyers had argued the judge could’ve sentenced him to probation instead. Prosecutors had asked for Bannon to be sent to jail for six months.


----------



## Alli

lizkat said:


> Well this is not a surprise, but will doubtless be appealed. Bannon gets 4 months in the slam for defying a subpoena to appear before the 1/6 committee. A little reminder for The Don about what choices lie ahead for him, after he is finally served his own subpoena to appear.



I will never understand why it took three damn months with him walking around free to get to sentencing. Anyone else gets sentenced and they are taken directly to jail. But now Bannon gets more free time because _he’ll probably appeal_? This is a mockery of swift justice. If the justice system worked this way for everyone charged with a crime, the prisons would be empty.


----------



## Cmaier

Alli said:


> I will never understand why it took three damn months with him walking around free to get to sentencing. Anyone else gets sentenced and they are taken directly to jail. But now Bannon gets more free time because _he’ll probably appeal_? This is a mockery of swift justice. If the justice system worked this way for everyone charged with a crime, the prisons would be empty.



This is actually very common.  His attorneys, as officers of the court, say they plan to appeal. The judge believes (probably correctly) that there are unsettled questions of law (as opposed to factual issues) that might result in the verdict being overturned.  The sentence is short, and if he goes to jail now it would render an appeal moot because he would be out of jail by the time the appeal is heard.  In these circumstances it is almost always the case that the judge delays the sentence, and, as the judge noted, if the appeal does not get filed quickly then he will go to jail.


----------



## Yoused

lizkat said:


> Bannon gets 4 months behind bars for defying 1/6 subpoena
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — Steve Bannon, a longtime ally of former President Donald Trump, was sentenced Friday to serve four months behind bars after defying a subpoena from the House committee investigating the Jan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com





*When (Joe the President) … was asked about the sentence … he said: “I never have a reaction to Steve Bannon.”*​
nicely done


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> This is actually very common.  His attorneys, as officers of the court, say they plan to appeal. The judge believes (probably correctly) that there are unsettled questions of law (as opposed to factual issues) that might result in the verdict being overturned.  The sentence is short, and if he goes to jail now it would render an appeal moot because he would be out of jail by the time the appeal is heard.  In these circumstances it is almost always the case that the judge delays the sentence, and, as the judge noted, if the appeal does not get filed quickly then he will go to jail.




I do try to look at these situations with a modicum of objectivity, e.g. "what if it were my kinfolk?" etc.  Still I will freely admit that it's hard for me not to paste memories of all of Bannon's faux populist "burn it all down" exhortations over my willingness to let due process play out. 

Between him and guys like Stephen Miller I do really sometimes fear for the republic under our Constitution as currently amended.   And yet that Constitution guarantees them the same rights as the rest of us.  We see that as a strength under rule of law, but they see it as something to exploit...


----------



## Herdfan

I am just the messenger here, but according to the latest Harvard/Harris poll, there is a huge disconnect between that the country sees as the most important issues vs what the Dem Leaders see as important issues.  

At the top of the list of issues the Dem Leaders are focused on, Jan 6th is the top issue (Page 18), however for the voters, it ranks all the way down in 19th place (Page 16).





__





						Loading…
					





					harvardharrispoll.com
				




Like I have said, most people don't care.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> I am just the messenger here, but according to the latest Harvard/Harris poll, there is a huge disconnect between that the country sees as the most important issues vs what the Dem Leaders see as important issues.
> 
> At the top of the list of issues the Dem Leaders are focused on, Jan 6th is the top issue (Page 18), however for the voters, it ranks all the way down in 19th place (Page 16).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harvardharrispoll.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I have said, most people don't care.




The Democrats can't do anything about the Republicans' fixation on "crime , inflation and immigration" in the GOP's 2022 messaging.   Voters who buy into that stuff will buy into it.

Democrats do know that if DEMOCRATS don't turn out in 2022 on the issue of saving democracy from those who would prefer to see a right wing authoritarian government from 2024 onward, the fundamental issues raised by insurrectionists to overturn the free and fair election of 2020 may well become moot.

Doesn't mean Dem-leaning voters don't care about inflation.  Of course we do. And we care about crime and immigration issues as well.

Economic issues including inflation (and, recession) do come and go regardless of the party of administration in Washington DC.   Immigration problems are amenable to a practical bipartisan solution, any of the several that have been floated around since the godblasted 80s.   Crime can be reduced not by building more privatized prisons but by reducing the flow of firearms and by addressing root problems of economic inequality and longstanding underinvestment in public health, education and domestic job-creation incentives.​​Some of those have already been addressed by passage of key legislation during the Biden admnistration.  Not everything responds with the alacrity of a player in a first person shooter video game...  it takes time for programs to kick in,  even when things like infrastructure projects are shovel-ready.​
However:   a loss of ability to consent to governance can be permanent.  This is what the Democrats realize, and it's why they make it a focus of voter concern in 2022.

 Anyway:  what solutions to "crime, inflation and immigration" do the GOP ads propose? 

Yeah:  crickets.   The Republicans are still and forever the party of NO.


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> Democrats do know that if DEMOCRATS don't turn out in 2022 on the issue of saving democracy from those who would prefer to see a right wing authoritarian government from 2024 onward, *the fundamental issues raised by insurrectionists to overturn the free and fair election of 2020 may well become moot.*




Spot on. We got lucky and dodged a bullet on Jan6th. We may not be so lucky next time.  I view Jan6th as a training run for future attempts where insurrectionists and supporters will be much better prepared.

Stay vigilant everyone - democracy and the Constitution are still at great risk.


----------



## fooferdoggie

I was not sure if he thinks he would make a spectacle of himself or teach them the truth or what. but he was taking at a QAnon convention.
Eric Trump Tells Crowd To 'Pop' A Beer, Watch Dad 'Talk About Election Fraud' To Jan. 6 Panel​“I told him... you have to go testify.... it will be the greatest entertainment," Donald Trump's second son said.








						Eric Trump Tells Crowd To 'Pop' A Beer, Watch Dad 'Talk About Election Fraud' To Jan. 6 Panel
					

“I told him... you have to go testify.... it will be the greatest entertainment," Donald Trump's second son said.




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> I will never understand why it took three damn months with him walking around free to get to sentencing. Anyone else gets sentenced and they are taken directly to jail. But now Bannon gets more free time because _he’ll probably appeal_? This is a mockery of swift justice. If the justice system worked this way for everyone charged with a crime, the prisons would be empty.




Check this out. Judge Nichols has formally stayed Bannon's contempt of Congress sentence. 

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1589735005278072832/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1589652830360850432/


----------



## shadow puppet

For realz?  So when he said he wanted to testify it was a lie? Shocker!!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591243633113837568/









						Trump sues Jan. 6 committee to block subpoena for documents, testimony
					

Former President Trump has sued to block the Jan. 6. committee subpoena for documents and testimony.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## fooferdoggie

trump would use MCdonalds if they left out one catchup packet.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Fox News probably won’t be posting this about a felon on the loose killing someone while driving drunk..









						Auburn Man Who Pleaded Guilty to Involvement in Jan. 6 Capitol Riot Arrested for Fatal I-55 Crash - NewsBreak
					

An Auburn man who pleaded guilty in federal court in early September to assaulting a law enforcement officer and members of the media during the January...




					share.newsbreak.com


----------



## Eric

Well deserved shade, it's like Dahmer handing out awards for those who saved his next victim.


January 6th gold medal recipients ignore replican handshakes during ceremony from
      PublicFreakout


----------



## Citysnaps

Eric said:


> Well deserved shade, it's like Dahmer handing out awards for those who saved his next victim.
> 
> 
> January 6th gold medal recipients ignore replican handshakes during ceremony from
> PublicFreakout




A beautiful moment!


----------



## Yoused

Eric said:


> Well deserved shade, it's like Dahmer handing out awards for those who saved his next victim.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/zec0xq



"Replican"? Is there a "-ti-" missing from that?


----------



## thekev

lizkat said:


> Well this is not a surprise, but will doubtless be appealed.   Bannon gets 4 months in the slam for defying a subpoena to appear before the 1/6 committee.    A little reminder for The Don about what choices lie ahead for him, after he is finally served his own subpoena to appear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bannon gets 4 months behind bars for defying 1/6 subpoena
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — Steve Bannon, a longtime ally of former President Donald Trump, was sentenced Friday to serve four months behind bars after defying a subpoena from the House committee investigating the Jan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com




His lawyers probably have to ask stuff like that, but leniency here would be more appropriate if his prior actions weren't so obviously made in bad faith. These dickheads ask for it in spite of being fully aware of what they're doing.


----------



## rdrr

The hits keep on coming for Trump. 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/06/politics/january-6-committee-criminal-referrals/index.html


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> The hits keep on coming for Trump.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/06/politics/january-6-committee-criminal-referrals/index.html




Even if they don't include a recommendation to go after Trump himself,  recommendations to prosecute other parties for perjury may have an effect on how those parties respond during investigations already occurring in the Department of Justice.  And in turn, the testimony of those parties could affect Trump.


----------



## Roller

Some pundits are questioning the wisdom of criminal referrals because they'll be viewed by Rs as politically-motivated. But I think it's the committee's duty to report instances where they believe laws were broken. It's up to the DOJ to decide whether to proceed with investigations.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Roller said:


> Some pundits are questioning the wisdom of criminal referrals because they'll be viewed by Rs as politically-motivated. But I think it's the committee's duty to report instances where they believe laws were broken. It's up to the DOJ to decide whether to proceed with investigations.




Similarly there are some whispers in the DOJ about what would it say to the world if the US prosecuted and convicted a former President. Um, what it would say is nobody is above the law and there are far more people outside the US (who aren’t white supremacists) horrified by Trump’s presidency and the damage it’s done to our “exceptionalism” reputation both inside and outside the US than people who would be upset if we locked him up.


----------



## Roller

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Similarly there are some whispers in the DOJ about what would it say to the world if the US prosecuted and convicted a former President. Um, what it would say is nobody is above the law and there are far more people outside the US (who aren’t white supremacists) horrified by Trump’s presidency and the damage it’s done to our “exceptionalism” reputation both inside and outside the US than people who would be upset if we locked him up.



Agreed. We wouldn't be the first country to charge or incarcerate former presidents and prime ministers. Here's *a list* as of August 2022. The problem with Trump is that his rabid followers will see it as a valid incitement to violence, though I think not proceeding would be even worse.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Roller said:


> Agreed. We wouldn't be the first country to charge or incarcerate former presidents and prime ministers. Here's *a list* as of August 2022. The problem with Trump is that his rabid followers will see it as a valid incitement to violence, though I think not proceeding would be even worse.




Every time I see news of some other major world leader getting prosecuted and convicted I think why can't that happen here.  There's no shortage of the deserving.  Probably the only reason it's possibly going to happen to Trump is because the dipshit is begging for it.        

There are far too many people in this country who believe as long as we don’t admit to something then it didn’t happen and that preserves our greatness mythology, no matter how many people were killed by our wars or how many people were exploited by our global neoliberalism. Somehow everybody will ignore reality in favor of nostalgia.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The final public meeting of the committee will be this coming Monday.

Probably a summary of their findings, release of the final report, and a few criminal referrals.

Just in time for Christmas!


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> The final public meeting of the committee will be this coming Monday.
> 
> Probably a summary of their findings, release of the final report, and a few criminal referrals.
> 
> Just in time for Christmas!




So looking forward to watching this!


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> Probably a summary of their findings, release of the final report, and a few criminal referrals.




I wonder if the criminal referrals will be revealed publicly?

I can see where they would be.  Can also understand that the DOJ would prefer they not be revealed if they're pursuing prosecutions.  Thoughts?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Citysnaps said:


> I wonder if the criminal referrals will be revealed publicly?
> 
> I can see where they would be.  Can also understand that the DOJ would prefer they not be revealed if they're pursuing prosecutions.  Thoughts?




I think Joy Reid said they would be voting on the referrals at the meeting, but I may have misheard.


----------



## Alli

GermanSuplex said:


> The final public meeting of the committee will be this coming Monday.



I have just cleared my agenda for the day. This better be worth it!

Ok, I didn’t actually have anything planned for Monday, and I know it will be worth it.


----------



## Citysnaps

Looks promising!  The next (and last) public Jan6th meeting is this coming Monday at 1pm (Eastern Time).









						Jan. 6 Panel Plans Vote on Referring Trump for Insurrection, Other Criminal Charges
					

The committee also was expected to recommend charging the former president for obstructing an official proceeding of Congress and defrauding the American people.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## mac_in_tosh

How does referring Trump for criminal charges change anything? Isn't he already under investigation by the DOJ? Trump will cry "witch hunt." The GOP will say it's political, all the while making plans to investigate Hunter's laptop.

Trump's already violated multiple laws just with the top secret documents issue. Enough with the reports, referrals and investigations.


----------



## Citysnaps

mac_in_tosh said:


> How does referring Trump for criminal charges change anything? Isn't he already under investigation by the DOJ? Trump will cry "witch hunt." The GOP will say it's political, all the while making plans to investigate Hunter's laptop.
> 
> Trump's already violated multiple laws just with the top secret documents issue. Enough with the reports, referrals and investigations.




I don't have a problem with that.

Supposedly the DOJ investigation is done in secret without others knowing what's being pursued/investigated. If the Jan6th Committee has compelling evidence and testimony crimes have been committed, information the DOJ might not have, then why not pass it on in a referral?


----------



## Cmaier

mac_in_tosh said:


> How does referring Trump for criminal charges change anything? Isn't he already under investigation by the DOJ? Trump will cry "witch hunt." The GOP will say it's political, all the while making plans to investigate Hunter's laptop.
> 
> Trump's already violated multiple laws just with the top secret documents issue. Enough with the reports, referrals and investigations.




it’s mainly for the historical record. The DoJ is./will investigate whatever crimes it thinks may have occurred, regardless of any referrals.


----------



## Eric

Trump defends inciting an insurrection by inciting an insurrection.









						Trump Ominously Evokes Jan. 6, Tells Backers It's Time To 'Deal With' FBI, DOJ 'Thugs'
					

Donald Trump is urging his followers on Truth Social that the “weaponized thugs and tyrants” in the FBI and DOJ “must be dealt with.”




					news.yahoo.com
				



Trump Ominously Evokes Jan. 6, Tells Backers It's Time To 'Deal With' FBI, DOJ 'Thugs'​


> Donald Trump was slammed for another round of threats and incitement Saturday after evoking last year’s Jan. 6 insurrection — and then telling his followers it’s now time for the FBI and Justice Department “thugs” to be “dealt with.”


----------



## GermanSuplex

This guy is desperate, aging and clearly gives no f***s.

His projection is unintentional this time, but it’s time the DoJ dealt with _him_.


----------



## Alli

Eric said:


> Trump defends inciting an insurrection by inciting an insurrection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump Ominously Evokes Jan. 6, Tells Backers It's Time To 'Deal With' FBI, DOJ 'Thugs'
> 
> 
> Donald Trump is urging his followers on Truth Social that the “weaponized thugs and tyrants” in the FBI and DOJ “must be dealt with.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump Ominously Evokes Jan. 6, Tells Backers It's Time To 'Deal With' FBI, DOJ 'Thugs'​



He’s trying to do it again.


----------



## rdrr

So is the Historic Jan 6th Committee meeting today at 1 PM or Dec 20th at 3 PM?   Confused...  Was on the usa today article and video link said, "Live in 28 hours, Dec 20th at 3 PM."


----------



## Citysnaps

rdrr said:


> So is the Historic Jan 6th Committee meeting today at 1 PM or Dec 20th at 3 PM?   Confused...




It's today, at 1 PM, Eastern Time.

Should be a really good watch!


----------



## Alli

My tv is on and we’re waiting for the committee members to enter. This is exciting.


----------



## Citysnaps

Starting...

By the way, I've found that PBS (and their affiliates - KQED in the SF Bay Area) offer the best analysis and coverage.


----------



## shadow puppet

"We've got another officer unconscious"


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## rdrr

Can't have the audio up at work for fear of triggering some folks.   Why isn't this fully CC'd on youtube?


----------



## shadow puppet




----------



## rdrr

There goes every ketchup bottle in Mar-a-lago.


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## fooferdoggie

rdrr said:


> There goes every ketchup bottle in Mar-a-lago.



mag-a-lardo is going to look like a war zone with mass slaughter.


----------



## shadow puppet

rdrr said:


> There goes every ketchup bottle in Mar-a-lago.



I hope those who invested in ketchup stock are seeing their profits soar.


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> So is the Historic Jan 6th Committee meeting today at 1 PM or Dec 20th at 3 PM?   Confused...  Was on the usa today article and video link said, "Live in 28 hours, Dec 20th at 3 PM."




See this is what happens when media outlets make budget cuts.   No one updated the date and time on some borrowed chyron. 



Eric said:


> Trump defends inciting an insurrection by inciting an insurrection.





Alli said:


> He’s trying to do it again.




He should shut up.  His own messing around trying to "weaponize" the DoJ is already part of why he'll soon be up on charges.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

shadow puppet said:


> I hope those who invested in ketchup stock are seeing their profits soar.




Lately when I hear Trump and ketchup I think of that episode of the Chappelle Show where Charlie Murphy is talking about hanging out with Rick James and several times they cut to James in an interview going “Cocaine is a hell of a drug” except Trump going “Ketchup is a hell of a condiment”.


----------



## lizkat

mac_in_tosh said:


> How does referring Trump for criminal charges change anything? Isn't he already under investigation by the DOJ? Trump will cry "witch hunt." The GOP will say it's political, all the while making plans to investigate Hunter's laptop.
> 
> Trump's already violated multiple laws just with the top secret documents issue. Enough with the reports, referrals and investigations.




Well really it was the institution of Congress (not to mention the instance and particular duties of a sitting Congress) under attack on January 6, 2021.   

The three branches of federal government are not set one above another, despite whatever Trump happens to have thought.

The DoJ is an agency of the executive branch.    So I think it's important the the House --as a body of the legislative branch-- go on record with a lawful investigation and any ensuing referrals. 

After all, the 1/6/21 attack was at the very least being tolerated if not encouraged by a then sitting President.  Donald Trump had tried to get the election overturned in the courts (60 times!) without desired effect, then started in trying to work on secretaries of state in certain of the individual states, and so appeared to be clearly resisting the will of the people and the whole idea leaving of office as scheduled after a free and fair election per our rule of law.  Part of the final push was trying to get the VP to exceed the brief for that part of the executive branch,  Failing that, there was Trump's willful inciting of the insurrection itself and his (thwarted) expressed intention to go to the Capitol along with his supporters, and then his watching the thing unfold for three hours on TV.   

Perhaps there is even more about which we do not yet know, in terms of communication among some Congressmen or among members of various agencies of the federal government atop which Trump was then sitting. 

But if there was ever a pretty good map of intent for a coup of one's own sitting government,  Trump seems to have drawn one that a responsible co-equal branch of government could not afford to ignore.   That the effort failed, well that only means it was a dress rehearsal, unless some in government rise up from within their official remit to say that such behavior doesn't come with impunity.   Criminal referral is the strongest measure that that House committee could take, and it took it.   Think about it:  The House had already impeached Trump twice while he was still President, and one of those impeachments was about the insurrection.   Yet this guy Trump now --as a plain citizen and with the chutzpah to declare himself a candidate for the 2024 presidential race-- continues even now to deny that he lost the election he tried to overturn, continues to derogate the meaning of rule of law and the agencies that are mandated to enforce it.

What happens now in the DoJ regarding Trump is up to Garland and the Special Counsel he appointed.   One can hope the gravity of the situation for our Constitution is not lost on them.   But the House did what the House should have done if the Constitution's tripartite allocation of rights and duties as checks and balances against untrammeled power is to mean anything going forward.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

As horrifying and symbolic as it was, as I heard somebody recently say, taking the capital is about as strategically important as taking a Walmart.    It's like thinking you can prevent your dad from whooping your ass by sitting on his favorite chair.  It would either have no effect or just piss him off even more.


----------



## Renzatic

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> As horrifying and symbolic as it was, as I heard somebody recently say, taking the capital is about as strategically important as taking a Walmart.    It's like thinking you can prevent your dad from whooping your ass by sitting on his favorite chair.  It would either have no effect or just piss him off even more.




The Capitol itself has no intrinsic strategic value, but congressmen do make for great hostages.

...or so I hear. I dunno if it's true or not. I'm just sayin' is all.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Renzatic said:


> The Capitol itself has no intrinsic strategic value, but congressmen do make for great hostages.
> 
> ...or so I hear. I dunno if it's true or not. I'm just sayin' is all.



well depends if you have Marjorie trailer grease she would be the opposite of value and they would give up to get rid of her.


----------



## Eric

Having a difficult time with Elie Honig, the guy is just unlikeable and political, would be a better fit on Fox News. Wish Toobin could've kept it in his pants, his analysis was always spot on.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

fooferdoggie said:


> well depends if you have Marjorie trailer grease she would be the opposite of value and they would give up to get rid of her.




If MTG got incarcerated in Russia we’d release 10 Russian political prisoners if they agree to NOT release her.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> As horrifying and symbolic as it was, as I heard somebody recently say, taking the capital is about as strategically important as taking a Walmart.  It's like thinking you can prevent your dad from whooping your ass by sitting on his favorite chair. *It would either have no effect or just piss him off even more.*




But see that is not what happened, is it.   Yeah somebody sat in Dad's chair.  But the big boss didn't blow it off or reach for a willow switch either.  Bottom line?  Mom said "You just wait until your father gets home". 

From childhood we all know what that means in ordinary life:  "ain't no big thing"  is what it DOES NOT MEAN.

The House committee basically said ok this happened and it was an assault upon the very authority that we the people of the USA gave ourselves:  our own consent to be governed by ourselves, by our choice of elected officials, representatives, senators.    This consent to be governed by our choice is a very big deal.   A cornerstone of rule of law.

What the hell was Donald Trump doing trying to bring it down to getting Mike Pence to crown him King? 

But Pence didn't bite, and the courts finally started saying not just "no way" but also get outta here with the frivolous suits already, and so in the end Trump was left with either staging a coup somehow, or conceding.   He chose the insurrection, fronted by a bunch of conspirators and a motley crew of followers (some more dangerous than others), whether or not he expected (vainly, this time) that he might also gain support of DoJ or the military. 

So yeah there were people "sitting in Dad's chair," yep, and running around with zip ties looking for Nancy, Nancy...  

The House members had all been there for the event,  so they didn't just ignore that. Neither did they overreact, in my opinion.  But they didn't blow it off either.   The assault was not just on the institution, the process, it was on the safety of members of Congress and the Vice President, the Capitol Police.  

The House committee on the 1/6 incident acted inside their own constitutional brief and did an investigation, held hearings, presented evidence to the public, took testimony of witnesses...  and have now made criminal referrals against Trump.   We see now too that they have also referred evidence of some subpoena refusals, aside from passing along the other results of their work to DoJ.

This wasn't like a law enforcement response to "taking a WalMart" at all.   It has been an appropriate, constitutional response to an attempt to overthrow a sitting US government. Big box stores come and go. Their sole focus is black ink on the bottom line.  Democracies are more complex.  Our rights to self governance are not nuanced by anything short of the need to compromise on our legislation, and democracy runs the table there unless we shrug off the duty to help stand on the wall and say "not tonight" when the would-be authoritarians and self-serving marauders show up.

The frameworks we have --starting with that right to an expressed consent to self governance--  are meant to resist encroachment by tyrannical force, and our Constitution looks to have stood up pretty well.  Nonetheless it would be folly to treat that insurrection as anything other than the "rehearsal" that some of its instigators doubtless now think it was.   Only way to treat that idea is apply full force of law without exception to those thinking themselves immune to it.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Who’s going to tell old yeller that’s not how double jeopardy works?


----------



## Herdfan

Can someone please explain what power the referral of charges gives the DOJ?  I mean other than what power they had yesterday?


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> Can someone please explain what power the referral of charges gives the DOJ?  I mean other than what power they had yesterday?




No additional power.  They are giving the DOJ  sworn testimony and other evidence collected by the committee over the last year and a half, which may include information the DOJ might not already have.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Can someone please explain what power the referral of charges gives the DOJ?  I mean other than what power they had yesterday?




Just stop....  please.   The DoJ is a recipient of information in this case, not power.    The power the House has includes making criminal referrals when wrapping up an investigation, if it deems those referrals are warranted.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> Who’s going to tell old yeller that’s not how double jeopardy works?






GermanSuplex said:


> Who’s going to tell old yeller that’s not how double jeopardy works?




Smilin' Jack Smith, that's who.  Well we don't see him smiling all that often, I guess.  He's been working almost nonstop since Thanksgiving on rounding up additional info from officials in seven states Trump targeted when trying to remain in office without consent of the people...









						Special counsel Smith has subpoenaed officials in all 7 states targeted by Trump allies in 2020 election | CNN Politics
					

Special counsel Jack Smith has issued a subpoena to local officials in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, for information related to the 2020 election, a spokesperson for the county told CNN.




					www.cnn.com
				




But he'll be circumspect and probably just submit a report and recommendation to  Merrick Garland.  Trump will wish McConnell had never stood in the way of Obama appointing Garland to SCOTUS.


----------



## Eric

lizkat said:


> Just stop....  please.   The DoJ is a recipient of information in this case, not power.    The power the House has includes making criminal referrals when wrapping up an investigation, if it deems those referrals are warranted.



My guess is Fox News is losing their shit in no uncertain terms and their talking points, weak as they are, are making the rounds.


----------



## Citysnaps

Pish posh. Mere legitimate political discourse.  

I know people who are *still* clinging to that January 6th characterization.


----------



## Citysnaps




----------



## mac_in_tosh

It's close to 2 years since the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol. If the DOJ is having trouble pinning down Trump's legal responsibility for this event, then indict him for the stolen documents, which should be much easier to prove just based on his own statements, and while he is being tried or serving time for that the other crimes can be sorted out and additional indictments issued. Instead, he's still posting inflammatory rhetoric, running for president, grifting his followers and playing golf.


----------



## Citysnaps

mac_in_tosh said:


> It's close to 2 years since the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol. *If the DOJ is having trouble pinning down Trump's legal responsibility for this event, then indict him for the stolen documents, which should be much easier to prove just based on his own statements*, and while he is being tried or serving time for that the other crimes can be sorted out and additional indictments issued. Instead, he's still posting inflammatory rhetoric, running for president, grifting his followers and playing golf.




I have a feeling that's how it will play out.   The DOJ isn't going to prosecute unless they're absolutely certain they can win.  Seems the Jan6th stuff still needs more time, investigation, and finessing.

Try him on the classified documents, get a conviction/sentenced, futz with the likely appeal, etc while the other DOJ team is making the Jan6th case air-tight.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

The thing that is irritating as fuck is that it’s blatantly obvious to everybody including Trump supporters what happened and who was ultimately responsible. And it’s not that Trump supporters don’t know that. It’s that they don’t give a shit and do mental gymnastics trying to justify it. “Those people were just angry that they’re country is getting stolen.” That’s not a defense, just like “Well, she was cheating on him” isn’t a defense for a guy putting a bullet in his wife’s head.

And since Trump is the head idiot of his wealth class (Musk is closing the gap) who only knows how to play the short game (and loses a lot of the time if you look at his business record), he could have just peacefully transferred power and would have a better chance of winning in 2024. But instead his chances of winning in 2024 are steadily declining and his chances of being thrown in jail and/or getting taken to the cleaners financially are steadily increasing. Sad.


----------



## Eric

What a waste.


Yay! from
      WhitePeopleTwitter


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> What a waste.
> 
> 
> Yay! from
> WhitePeopleTwitter




Along with perpetuating American mythology and not being completely honest about our founding and history, I’m getting a bit tired of people saying “that’s not who we are”. Um, yes it is. Not all of us, but a scary percentage of us. We can debate what constitutes being a good person or bad person, but being a “hard working American” doesn’t mean you can’t also be a bad person. There are plenty of hardworking Americans who don’t do this shit. Also, clearly, being highly educated or paid doesn’t make you immune from being conned….or an idiot, but that’s from the other side of the coin.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> What a waste.
> 
> 
> Yay! from
> WhitePeopleTwitter



She’ll do a booming business making anti-vaccine videos and hawking bleach cures.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Cmaier said:


> She’ll do a booming business making anti-vaccine videos and hawking bleach cures.



looks like she went to trumps university and got her diploma.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The transcripts are interesting. Many of them are pages and pages of “I plead the fifth.”

To some of these far-right “celebs” like Roger Stone and Charlie Kirk, this is all a game.


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> The transcripts are interesting. Many of them are pages and pages of “I plead the fifth.”
> 
> To some of these far-right “celebs” like Roger Stone and Charlie Kirk, this is all a game.



stone pleaded the fifth to his age and his address.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Cassidy Hutchinson is still making waves - the testimony they released sheds more light on the concerns of witness tampering.

This is a big mess with a lot of shady characters.


----------



## rdrr

fooferdoggie said:


> stone pleaded the fifth to his age and his address.




He should plead the 5th to much more.   Actually maybe he shouldn't say anything.









						Trump Confidant Roger Stone Says He Saw Swirling 'Demon Portal' Above Biden White House
					

"Prophets ... and other holy men, have told me that only prayer can close the demonic portal," which is "swirling like a cauldron," said Stone.




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## lizkat

rdrr said:


> He should plead the 5th to much more.   Actually maybe he shouldn't say anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump Confidant Roger Stone Says He Saw Swirling 'Demon Portal' Above Biden White House
> 
> 
> "Prophets ... and other holy men, have told me that only prayer can close the demonic portal," which is "swirling like a cauldron," said Stone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com




Yeah it's really funny but the thing is they are robbing us all blind 24/7 and eroding constitutional protections against setting up permanent housekeeping as a sole and completely authoritarian government, while providing these circus acts in the meantime to keep us entertained.


----------



## rdrr

Haven't seen it posted so I will post the link here.  Apologies in advance if it's a duplicate. 

Final Report of the Jan 6th Committee:





						Document Viewer : NPR
					






					apps.npr.org


----------



## Yoused

lizkat said:


> Yeah it's really funny but the thing is they are robbing us all blind 24/7 and eroding constitutional protections against setting up permanent housekeeping as a sole and completely authoritarian government, while providing these circus acts in the meantime to keep us entertained.




I remember a movie from the early '70s, _Harry in Your Pocket_, which instructed us on proper pocket-picking technique. They worked as a team, the woman providing a distraction while Harry slid the goods from the mark and quickly passed it to the drop who cleaned it out and left the leather in a nearby trash can. This is the Republican strategy: they are getting us to look elsewhere whilst they pick our pockets and launder the take through their drops.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Yoused said:


> I remember a movie from the early '70s, _Harry in Your Pocket_, which instructed us on proper pocket-picking technique. They worked as a team, the woman providing a distraction while Harry slid the goods from the mark and quickly passed it to the drop who cleaned it out and left the leather in a nearby trash can. This is the Republican strategy: they are getting us to look elsewhere whilst they pick our pockets and launder the take through their drops.




Except the whole operation is being filmed with our cell phones and the mark doesn’t give a shit.  In fact when they find out they’d prefer they just hand over their wallet for efficiency as long as the thief is draped in the American flag.


----------



## Eric

Jan. 6 response would have been 'vastly different' if rioters were Black, House sergeant at arms told investigators
					

William J. Walker, the head of the D.C. National Guard during the insurrection, also indicated he thought more people in the crowd would have died if the mob had been largely Black instead of overwhelmingly white.




					www.nbcnews.com
				



Jan. 6 response would have been 'vastly different' if rioters were Black, House sergeant at arms told investigators​


> William J. Walker, the head of the D.C. National Guard during the insurrection, also indicated he thought more people in the crowd would have died if the mob had been largely Black instead of overwhelmingly white.




Ya think? Look at how Republicans lost their minds when black people looted a Target, they were literally calling for blood in the streets. Then those exact same people cheered on a white angry mob who were attempting to take over the nation's capitol.

If any Republican showed the same outrage at the insurrection as they did any BLM march over the years then I applaud them. If not, they're just worthless hypocrites.


----------

