# The 2022 Midterms



## Herdfan

We are a little over 6 months out and things are not looking good for the Dems.  Here is former Clinton Pollster Mark Penn's assessment:









						Voters are angry about half a dozen Democratic-fueled problems | National Review
					

America today is facing real, undeniable problems, and most of them are strongly associated with the Democratic Party.




					www.nationalreview.com


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## Eric

Yeah, I don't think it will work out well for Democrats but it's not without historical precedence, typically the party in power goes down in the midterms unless things are gong really well, which they clearly aren't. It'll probably be similar to the midterms under Obama where he lost both houses. 

I think we look beyond that to 2024 and see how things look for the party. It will be interesting to see what Biden chooses to do, it's a hard fight for anyone in that age group.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

The establishment Democrats got exactly what they asked for in a Biden presidency and they will be punished appropriately as a result.  

It's one thing to lose to Trump and his minions when they were untested.  It takes a special level of incompetence to lose to them after they've proven who they are.  

To make things worse, the Democrats have absolutely no Plan B to Biden in sight.  Nobody to get excited about.


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## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> The establishment Democrats got exactly what they asked for in a Biden presidency and they will be punished appropriately as a result.
> 
> *It's one thing to lose to Trump and his minions when they were untested.  It takes a special level of incompetence to lose to them after they've proven who they are. *
> 
> To make things worse, the Democrats have absolutely no Plan B to Biden in sight.  Nobody to get excited about.



Out of curiosity, what could Biden (or any president) have done differently to stave off inflation, gas prices, and war on a global scale? IMO this is a pretty unfair criticism. It's the same reason Trump got voted out and whoever took over was screwed from the gate.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> Out of curiosity, what could Biden (or any president) have done differently to stave off inflation, gas prices, and war on a global scale? IMO this is a pretty unfair criticism. It's the same reason Trump got voted out and whoever took over was screwed from the gate.




On the first 2 he could go after crisis profiteers HARD instead of just wagging his finger briefly and moving on.  

Can you think of any major issue that the national Democrat party hasn't thrown in the towel already?  Can you think of anything in their hopper that could improve their numbers before we vote?  Here's going to be a fun kicker.  Two months before voting some covid related healthcare cost reductions are going to expire and premiums will shoot up.  That's going to be great for voters on the fence.   

This reminds me of Obama's latest "don't expect much" campaign which is quite the downhill slide from "hope" that got him in office.


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## ronntaylor

Eric said:


> Out of curiosity, what could Biden (or any president) have done differently to stave off inflation, gas prices, and war on a global scale? IMO this is a pretty unfair criticism. It's the same reason Trump got voted out and whoever took over was screwed from the gate.



Unfortunately reality escapes too many. A lot can happen in six months. And often does. But like others have said, the party in power almost always loses in the midterms. I'm not sure Dems will lose both houses, but we will see. I'm waiting to see if some bonehead actions will change the course of some races.


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## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> We are a little over 6 months out and things are not looking good for the Dems.  Here is former Clinton Pollster Mark Penn's assessment:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Voters are angry about half a dozen Democratic-fueled problems | National Review
> 
> 
> America today is facing real, undeniable problems, and most of them are strongly associated with the Democratic Party.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com




I’m not sure the following (from the linked article) is true:



> Americans think the economy is weak, inflation is effectively giving them a major pay cut, the border is being overrun, criminals are roaming unchecked, Covid policy is a mess, Vladimir Putin is more dangerous than ever before, and political correctness amounts to a national gag order.




Anytime I see “Americans think” from an opinion piece, it’s the author projecting their thoughts onto others that may or may not share them. And does anybody still use the term “political correctness” anymore? Plus, Putin is demonstrably weaker than he was a few months ago.

As for the linked piece in The NY Times, I read that and it’s a bit more reasonable. However, I’m not sure a Clinton election strategist has a leg to stand on, as he seems to think “tough on crime” is the strategy Biden should use. We are still seeing the tragic effects of Bill Clinton’s crime policies today.

Finally, early polls are often highly fallible. The biggest reason for their fallibility is that you don’t have an opponent yet. He might have low numbers, but once there is an actual challenger, you will be looking at relative popularity, not just overall approval.

For the midterms, 2010 went very heavily for the Republicans after Obama’s first 2 years. But then after 2 years of the GOP reminding everybody what a bunch of nincompoops they are, Obama got a second term. Maybe THAT history will repeat itself?


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## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> Anytime I see “Americans think” from an opinion piece, it’s the author projecting their thoughts onto others that may or may not share them.




There’s also the “most Americans” myth. “Most Americans” conjures up an image of a reasonably stable middle class family with some kind of nest egg they don’t want touched. Everything about that doesn’t describe most Americans. I don’t care what people’s social circle looks like, by just about every metric that doesn’t describe most Americans, and I shouldn’t have to say this, but the reality is most Americans aren’t doing as well as that middle of road image. It’s also convenient that when “most Americans” are cited as a source it's referring to them being a big fan of the status quo.


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## GermanSuplex

It’s a win/win for republicans. If they win, they can claim it’s a repudiation of democrats, progressives and the Biden admin. If they lose, they’ll just claim it’s further proof of unrelenting and widespread voter fraud.

I have a feeling there will be lots of infighting and issues even if they win both chambers. I’d love to see them do a lot worse than they anticipate, but the dynamics are such that republicans don’t need that many votes to win. A senate seat is a senate seat regardless of whether it’s won in California or Montana, and while both parties are guilty of gerrymandering, some of the Republican house seat districts that have been drawn are ridiculous in their blatant attempt to dilute black and brown votes.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Been hearing a lot about this.

Progressive Caucus goes full "PINO": Why dumping Nina Turner is a turning point | Salon.com

The Progressives have been assimilated. So, epic win for moderates who are big fans of nothing ever getting done, be at the hands of toothless Democrats who never play hardball or Republicans’ blanket obstruction of everything without debate. Must be nice to be part of the ever dwindling number of Americans who are doing just fine. I’m sure you won’t get caught in the crosshairs of political violence.

I probably naively feel safe from the ever growing move towards authoritarianism living in CA, but I’m sure the good voters of Kentucky will do their best to bring it to my front door at the federal level.

I’m not really shocked by the “win some/lose some” outlook apathy because that’s what we’re used to, but even when out of majority power the Republicans are actively pursuing measures and policies that make sure Democrats are more frequently on the “lose some” side of the equation. What do you think will happen when they have majority power?


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## ronntaylor

Nina Turner was a joke of a candidate in the special election. It would have been beyond stupid to support her in this district for 2022. She has proven that she doesn't have it to win with her stated policies. She also turned off a ton of people that could have helped her in the past. With the balance of power on shaky ground, now is not the time for emotions. It's all about getting shit done. Which means keeping seats in Dem hands and winning seats from GOP districts that are vulnerable.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

ronntaylor said:


> Nina Turner was a joke of a candidate in the special election. It would have been beyond stupid to support her in this district for 2022. She has proven that she doesn't have it to win with her stated policies. She also turned off a ton of people that could have helped her in the past. With the balance of power on shaky ground, now is not the time for emotions. It's all about getting shit done. Which means keeping seats in Dem hands and winning seats from GOP districts that are vulnerable.




On the federal level getting shit done is no longer on speaking terms with Democrats. Republicans get shit done, albeit shit most people don’t like and possibly illegally. Democrats just offer excuses culminating in Obama’s “Don’t expect much” which is admittedly less abrasive than the former “Get a college degree or STFU”. Coincidently Biden ran on some form of eliminating college debt and free college, but again, that falls under getting shit done, which again, isn’t in Democrats’ wheelhouse. So “don’t expect much” is probably the most accurate slogan to date.


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## ronntaylor

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> On the federal level getting shit done is no longer on speaking terms with Democrats.




Dems passed additional stimulus at the start of their total control of both houses. Passed Federal Child Tax Credit that pulled millions of children out of poverty. Unlike the previous administration, they passed Infrastructure: the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act which will be billions of dollars and millions of jobs. Shit done.



Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Republicans get shit done,



Is that "On the federal level" or state level? I can't seem to remember what besides their passing of tax cuts for the super wealthy and earlier stimulus that lined the pockets of large corps/thieves with little oversight.



Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Democrats just offer excuses culminating in Obama’s “Don’t expect much”



Obama hasn't been president for more than five years.



Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Coincidently Biden ran on some form of eliminating college debt and free college, but again, that falls under getting shit done, which again, isn’t in Democrats’ wheelhouse.



And he's eliminated college debt for some, while working to exponentially increase debt relief for lots more.

So overall, Dems getting shit done. It's not pie in the sky shit from Bernie, who has never gotten shit done and is probably, fingers crossed, done on a national level.


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## ronntaylor

The right ruling based on New York's constitution. But probably a death knell to Dem control of the US House  of Reps after November









						Democrats Lose Control of N.Y. Election Maps, as Top Court Rejects Appeal
					

The Court of Appeals said Democrats violated the State Constitution and ignored the will of the voters. The judges ordered a court-appointed expert to draw replacements.




					www.nytimes.com


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## Chew Toy McCoy

ronntaylor said:


> Dems passed additional stimulus at the start of their total control of both houses. Passed Federal Child Tax Credit that pulled millions of children out of poverty. Unlike the previous administration, they passed Infrastructure: the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act which will be billions of dollars and millions of jobs. Shit done.
> 
> 
> Is that "On the federal level" or state level? I can't seem to remember what besides their passing of tax cuts for the super wealthy and earlier stimulus that lined the pockets of large corps/thieves with little oversight.
> 
> 
> Obama hasn't been president for more than five years.
> 
> 
> And he's eliminated college debt for some, while working to exponentially increase debt relief for lots more.
> 
> So overall, Dems getting shit done. It's not pie in the sky shit from Bernie, who has never gotten shit done and is probably, fingers crossed, done on a national level.




Further Covid stimulus relief was a continuation of what Trump already did. Republicans had to object because they reflexively have to object to everything Democrats do, but passing it wasn’t exactly a Herculean task. The child tax credit is toast and those kids are plopped right back into poverty. Republicans were pissed Trump didn’t try to pass an infrastructure bill, not only popular, but also a massive corruption money grab bag for their donors in the industries, both parties. Republicans only had to put up a stink reflexively but given the corruption opportunities quickly backed down.

To be clear, on the federal level Republicans successfully blocking legislation is getting shit done by their definition. But they also didn’t need to do a damn thing in this case. They have a couple Democrats doing the dirty work for them. This freed them up to spend their time on state legislation and future vote rigging. They seem to be wildly successful at that. Of course there are anti-Trump Republicans in office but they quickly get steamrolled. By contrast the Anti-Biden agenda Democrats are given outsized power.

At Obama’s resent white house visit he jokingly referred to Biden as the vice president which got big laughs and was a massive slap in the face to Biden. Then everybody fawned all over Obama while leaving Biden to meander around aimlessly. So saying Obama is no longer relevant because how long he hasn’t been President is like saying neither is Trump. The big difference is Trump can run again. Democrats would run Obama again in a heartbeat if they could. Obama still has huge cache with the party and when he says “don’t expect much” people listen. I’d even argue given the choice people would listen more to Obama now over Biden as President. I actually feel bad for Biden in this respect. If Obama walks in there is this air of “Oh, a real leader just entered the room.”

To be honest, I haven’t really heard much on Biden’s college debt relief other than its nowhere near what he ran on. I will look into it more though.

We’ll see, but I don’t see voters sharing your enthusiasm about national Democrat accomplishments when voting time arrives.


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## Herdfan

ronntaylor said:


> The right ruling based on New York's constitution. But probably a death knell to Dem control of the US House  of Reps after November
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Democrats Lose Control of N.Y. Election Maps, as Top Court Rejects Appeal
> 
> 
> The Court of Appeals said Democrats violated the State Constitution and ignored the will of the voters. The judges ordered a court-appointed expert to draw replacements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com




Too gerrymandered?  I would swear only Republicans did that. 

Couldn't read the linked article, but a few I did read (not FoxNews just FYI) seemed to use phrases like:



> drawn with an unconstitutional partisan intent




and



> after a lower court of appeals ruled last week that state Democrats unconstitutionally attempted to redraw the districts to favor their candidates and to push the GOP out of potentially several seats.




Just an FYI in case anyone needs to know, all 7 judges were appointed by Democrat Governors and 6 of the 7 are Democrats.


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## Herdfan

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Then everybody fawned all over Obama while leaving Biden to meander around aimlessly.




I wonder if you will receive the same treatment I did when I posted this?


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## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Too gerrymandered?  I would swear only Republicans did that.
> 
> Couldn't read the linked article, but a few I did read (not FoxNews just FYI) seemed to use phrases like:
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> Just an FYI in case anyone needs to know, all 7 judges were appointed by Democrat Governors and 6 of the 7 are Democrats.



It is good to see when judges stand for the law and on principle, even if members of their own party wish it otherwise.

When it comes to gerrymandering, there should be a constitutional amendment ending it.

In Wisconsin in 2018, 44.7% of people voted for Republicans. The result? 64.6% majority of Republicans in the legislature. That is banana republic level bullshit.

59 million Americans live under minority rule in their state. That is unacceptable. It boggles the mind that the Supreme Court ruled in 2019 in such a way that made it even worse.


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## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> It is good to see when judges stand for the law and on principle, even if members of their own party wish it otherwise.
> 
> When it comes to gerrymandering, there should be a constitutional amendment ending it.
> 
> In Wisconsin in 2018, 44.7% of people voted for Republicans. The result? 64.6% majority of Republicans in the legislature. That is banana republic level bullshit.
> 
> 59 million Americans live under minority rule in their state. That is unacceptable. It boggles the mind that the Supreme Court ruled in 2019 in such a way that made it even worse.




While I agree with what you are saying in principal, the votes totals and percentages in and among themselves don't necessarily mean anything untoward is going on.


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## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> While I agree with what you are saying in principal, the votes totals and percentages in and among themselves don't necessarily mean anything untoward is going on.



Um what? You were apparently upset enough about NY gerrymandering to post an article about it, but if it is a far worse gerrymander in Wisconsin, you’re ok with it?


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## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Um what?




In the example you gave, how do you know that Dems in Dem leaning districts didn't turn out more heavily that Republicans in Republican leaning districts?  

Numbers like that can give a false picture.  If there is a district that is GOP heavy (simply by being more rural and not because of gerrymandering) and it is not a gubernatorial year, why do the Republicans need to turn out?  Or maybe Dems in the urban areas turned out more heavily.  You simply can't tell by gross percentages.


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## ronntaylor

Herdfan said:


> Too gerrymandered?  I would swear only Republicans did that.
> 
> Couldn't read the linked article, but a few I did read (not FoxNews just FYI) seemed to use phrases like:
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> Just an FYI in case anyone needs to know, all 7 judges were appointed by Democrat Governors and 6 of the 7 are Democrats.



It was too gerrymandered after the passage of voter approved Constitutional reforms. The Dems were trying to undo extreme gerrymandering assisted by Mario Cuomo and the GOP early on in his administration. The judges rightly put a stop to it. We know GOP judiciaries won't do the same in the face of obvious extreme gerrymandering. Especially when the Right wingers on the Supremes make divergent rulings in a short period of time benefitting the GOP after ruling against Dems.


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## ronntaylor

SuperMatt said:


> Um what? You were apparently upset enough about NY gerrymandering to post an article about it, but if it is a far worse gerrymander in Wisconsin, you’re ok with it?



Of course he is. Wisconsin and NC are two of the worst cases of extreme gerrymandering ever witnessed. And has the approval of GOP pols, state courts and the right wingers on the Supremes.


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## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> In the example you gave, how do you know that Dems in Dem leaning districts didn't turn out more heavily that Republicans in Republican leaning districts?
> 
> Numbers like that can give a false picture.  If there is a district that is GOP heavy (simply by being more rural and not because of gerrymandering) and it is not a gubernatorial year, why do the Republicans need to turn out?  Or maybe Dems in the urban areas turned out more heavily.  You simply can't tell by gross percentages.



Again, what? They counted the total votes. 44.7% of VOTES were for Republicans… and over 60% of the seats in the legislature.

Pretending that extreme gerrymanders in Republican states are a magical coincidence while being incensed about one happening in NY is bullshit of the highest degree.

I said I oppose gerrymanders by both parties. You clearly only give a fuck if it is Democrats doing it.

Here is a great piece on gerrymandering by both sides (spoiler: it’s mostly Republicans, but Dems do not have clean hands either).



			https://files.elfsightcdn.com/c98035dd-59ef-4b06-8e5b-c8d4dd555d9d/7f88292d-d6df-4f1c-9f0c-5f52e9d61a9e.pdf


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## ronntaylor

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Further Covid stimulus relief was a continuation of what Trump already did. Republicans had to object because they reflexively have to object to everything Democrats do, but passing it wasn’t exactly a Herculean task. The child tax credit is toast and those kids are plopped right back into poverty. Republicans were pissed Trump didn’t try to pass an infrastructure bill, not only popular, but also a massive corruption money grab bag for their donors in the industries, both parties. Republicans only had to put up a stink reflexively but given the corruption opportunities quickly backed down.
> 
> To be clear, on the federal level Republicans successfully blocking legislation is getting shit done by their definition. But they also didn’t need to do a damn thing in this case. They have a couple Democrats doing the dirty work for them. This freed them up to spend their time on state legislation and future vote rigging. They seem to be wildly successful at that. Of course there are anti-Trump Republicans in office but they quickly get steamrolled. By contrast the Anti-Biden agenda Democrats are given outsized power.
> 
> At Obama’s resent white house visit he jokingly referred to Biden as the vice president which got big laughs and was a massive slap in the face to Biden. Then everybody fawned all over Obama while leaving Biden to meander around aimlessly. So saying Obama is no longer relevant because how long he hasn’t been President is like saying neither is Trump. The big difference is Trump can run again. Democrats would run Obama again in a heartbeat if they could. Obama still has huge cache with the party and when he says “don’t expect much” people listen. I’d even argue given the choice people would listen more to Obama now over Biden as President. I actually feel bad for Biden in this respect. If Obama walks in there is this air of “Oh, a real leader just entered the room.”
> 
> To be honest, I haven’t really heard much on Biden’s college debt relief other than its nowhere near what he ran on. I will look into it more though.
> 
> We’ll see, but I don’t see voters sharing your enthusiasm about national Democrat accomplishments when voting time arrives.



Further COVID stimulus would not have passed were it not for Ossoff and Warnock getting Dems to a 50/50 Senate. The GOP incumbents in GA already said that they were not voting for it. The House Dems assured that further stimulus was even on the table. The Progressives whined and pouted about an additional $2000 check instead of total of $2000 (ie. $1400 check after the $600 earlier check). The expanded Child Tax Credit also expanded the Child and Dependent Care Credit. So that's upto $4000 in additional credit with income minimums eliminated. The Infrastructure bill was the largest passed by Congress. Every state will benefit should state and local governments that advantage of programs and grants. Something that didn't happen under Mango despite his constant talk. 

Sitting on your ass is a roundabout way of "getting things done" no matter how you try to justify it. The GOP did nothing but get the super rich richer with a single piece of major legislation. Even the earlier COVID relief scam that benefited their crooks was co-opted in its implementation as Dems added checks on the stimulus, but Mango's cabal circumvented those checks and we're just getting a clear picture of just how now.

Obama isn't pushing for legislation. Isn't rallying Dem voters. Isn't in office and it not going to be assisting. Hell, he didn't assist enough during the final close of the 2016 elections when he supposedly wanted to keep his legacy intact. So I don't give a damn about fawning over Obama as it's not going to help Dems keep control of both houses. He can't run again. Any fantasy of what would happen if he could is just pissing in the wind.

The Biden admin already got student debt erased for ~750K loans. About 2.5 millions loans will be paid off sooner thanks to adjustments to programs by the Biden admin that should have been provided by the previous assholes. The most recent announced plan would give relief to at least 3 million loans. Enough Dems pols (and voters) are not on-board with complete debt forgiveness. So it will be a hard sell at best. Free community college suffers the same drawbacks. Too many Dems in Congress and Dem voters are against it. And with almost every plan calling for local government buy-in, it will be a non-starter in many (most?) states.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> I wonder if you will receive the same treatment I did when I posted this?




I’m the lesser attackee here.

I’ll admit there are things I don’t deep dive on, but I’m just one person. There are plenty of voters (probably the majority) who don’t deep dive and nor do they have somebody in their circle of influence who is going to deep dive for them. “Here’s a way buried story on something the Democrats accomplished that you’d probably like”. More times than not it comes down a voter’s personal reality. If that’s not good then there’s a good chance their vote isn’t going to go to whoever is currently in office, discounting for blind party loyalty.


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## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> We are a little over 6 months out and things are not looking good for the Dems.  Here is former Clinton Pollster Mark Penn's assessment:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Voters are angry about half a dozen Democratic-fueled problems | National Review
> 
> 
> America today is facing real, undeniable problems, and most of them are strongly associated with the Democratic Party.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com



So to start with a summary,  I don’t think we deserve to succeed. You can choose imperfect Democrat candidates who you are not happy with,  or corrupt, anti-democratic, fuck truth, immoral, screw democracy, _burn the house down_ budding fascists made _in Donny’s image, _Republican candidates. And then we’ll rely on STUPID to make the choice. We’re royally screwed, self inflicted, and we fucking deserve every bad thing that we allowed to happen though our collective bad choices.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

ronntaylor said:


> Further COVID stimulus would not have passed were it not for Ossoff and Warnock getting Dems to a 50/50 Senate. The GOP incumbents in GA already said that they were not voting for it. The House Dems assured that further stimulus was even on the table. The Progressives whined and pouted about an additional $2000 check instead of total of $2000 (ie. $1400 check after the $600 earlier check). The expanded Child Tax Credit also expanded the Child and Dependent Care Credit. So that's upto $4000 in additional credit with income minimums eliminated. The Infrastructure bill was the largest passed by Congress. Every state will benefit should state and local governments that advantage of programs and grants. Something that didn't happen under Mango despite his constant talk.
> 
> Sitting on your ass is a roundabout way of "getting things done" no matter how you try to justify it. The GOP did nothing but get the super rich richer with a single piece of major legislation. Even the earlier COVID relief scam that benefited their crooks was co-opted in its implementation as Dems added checks on the stimulus, but Mango's cabal circumvented those checks and we're just getting a clear picture of just how now.
> 
> Obama isn't pushing for legislation. Isn't rallying Dem voters. Isn't in office and it not going to be assisting. Hell, he didn't assist enough during the final close of the 2016 elections when he supposedly wanted to keep his legacy intact. So I don't give a damn about fawning over Obama as it's not going to help Dems keep control of both houses. He can't run again. Any fantasy of what would happen if he could is just pissing in the wind.
> 
> The Biden admin already got student debt erased for ~750K loans. About 2.5 millions loans will be paid off sooner thanks to adjustments to programs by the Biden admin that should have been provided by the previous assholes. The most recent announced plan would give relief to at least 3 million loans. Enough Dems pols (and voters) are not on-board with complete debt forgiveness. So it will be a hard sell at best. Free community college suffers the same drawbacks. Too many Dems in Congress and Dem voters are against it. And with almost every plan calling for local government buy-in, it will be a non-starter in many (most?) states.




Do you think all that is enough to keep or win voters in purple states? If it is a bloodbath in the midterms, what would you say explains that?

On the Child Tax Credit, before I posted I asked my coworker who is a parent and she believes all those benefits are done. Granted, she’s not an expert but I did ask.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> So to start with a summary,  I don’t think we deserve to succeed. You can choose imperfect Democrat candidates who you are not happy with,  or corrupt, anti-democratic, fuck truth, immoral, screw democracy, _burn the house down_ budding fascists made _in Donny’s image, _Republican candidates. And then we’ll rely on STUPID to make the choice. We’re royally screwed, self inflicted, and we fucking deserve every bad thing that we allowed to happen though our collective bad choices.




I wouldn’t say it's entirely our fault. We were heavily brainwashed by the cult of blind patriotism and exceptionalism while worshipping the rich.  As I heard somebody put it, Democrats deserve to lose but Republicans don’t deserve to win.

With the rise of the internet and tech, the nerds became top dog.  It seems like maybe the stupid are now going to get their turn on top.


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## ronntaylor

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Do you think all that is enough to keep or win voters in purple states? If it is a bloodbath in the midterms, what would you say explains that?
> 
> On the Child Tax Credit, before I posted I asked my coworker who is a parent and she believes all those benefits are done. Granted, she’s not an expert but I did ask.



TBH, there are too many stupid voters. It doesn't matter what Dems do. Too many are uninvolved. Unaware. Complacent. Especially outside of Presidential years. The Dems need to do better at PR. The GOP uses distraction via hate-filled rhetoric. And Dem pols *and voters* play into the games. Witness Kelly in Arizona. He's attempting to rope in Independents and some republicans. Which will enrage Dem voters and cause some to stay home. Dems can't afford to lose that seat in AZ. They may be lucky with a pick up in PA and maybe in WI.

The Child Tax Credit extra payments ended in December; but the Child Care Credit increase remains and there is no longer a minimum salary threshold. So families can get up $4000/year. Dems need to stress that extra credit potential as that can mean a great deal for working families.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

ronntaylor said:


> TBH, there are too many stupid voters. It doesn't matter what Dems do. Too many are uninvolved. Unaware. Complacent. Especially outside of Presidential years. The Dems need to do better at PR. The GOP uses distraction via hate-filled rhetoric. And Dem pols *and voters* play into the games. Witness Kelly in Arizona. He's attempting to rope in Independents and some republicans. Which will enrage Dem voters and cause some to stay home. Dems can't afford to lose that seat in AZ. They may be lucky with a pick up in PA and maybe in WI.
> 
> The Child Tax Credit extra payments ended in December; but the Child Care Credit increase remains and there is no longer a minimum salary threshold. So families can get up $4000/year. Dems need to stress that extra credit potential as that can mean a great deal for working families.




Without saying it, kind of my point has been in order to counter the stupid and hate filled fearmongering of the Republicans you need to slap voters in the face with Democrat lead legislation they benefit from and they shouldn’t have to go digging for it. It should be an obvious benefit they are currently experiencing. Of course that wouldn’t decide it for everybody but it would go a long way.

As I mentioned previously, I think there is also a serious “We’ll just get it next time” apathy which is completely ignoring the fact that Republicans are doing everything in their power to prevent a next time. At best, look at their lust over Hungary which is only a democracy on paper and if you bothered to actually read that paper beyond the "democracy" title you’d see that it isn’t. To top it off, more and more people on the right are quite open about not wanting a democracy.  

It's like somebody approaching you from across the street with a gun pointed at your head and you believe there's no way they would pull the trigger because they're so out in the open about it.  Then they pull the trigger and somehow you're still in disbelief...and dead.


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I wouldn’t say it's entirely our fault. We were heavily brainwashed by the cult of blind patriotism and exceptionalism while worshipping the rich.  As I heard somebody put it, Democrats deserve to lose but Republicans don’t deserve to win.
> 
> With the rise of the internet and tech, the nerds became top dog.  It seems like maybe the stupid are now going to get their turn on top.



Related:
Post in thread 'Examples of why the Human Species Might Be Doomed'
https://talkedabout.com/threads/examples-of-why-the-human-species-might-be-doomed.2665/post-99949


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Without saying it, kind of my point has been in order to counter the stupid and hate filled fearmongering of the Republicans you need to slap voters in the face with Democrat lead legislation they benefit from and they shouldn’t have to go digging for it. It should be an obvious benefit they are currently experiencing. Of course that wouldn’t decide it for everybody but it would go a long way.
> 
> As I mentioned previously, I think there is also a serious “We’ll just get it next time” apathy which is completely ignoring the fact that Republicans are doing everything in their power to prevent a next time. At best, look at their lust over Hungary which is only a democracy on paper and if you bothered to actually read that paper beyond the "democracy" title you’d see that it isn’t. To top it off, more and more people on the right are quite open about not wanting a democracy.
> 
> It's like somebody approaching you from across the street with a gun pointed at your head and you believe there's no way they would pull the trigger because they're so out in the open about it.  Then they pull the trigger and somehow you're still in disbelief...and dead.



The GOP is a direct threat to USA based democracy as they increasing look to fascism at the State  Level, and if Trump returns,  at the Federal Level too.

Examples: Besides BLATANT gerrymandering, the attempt in Georgia (succeeded?) for the next Presidential election for any results the GOP don’t like, they have given themselves the power to upend the election board, seizing its power and simply declare the election results null and void because of vague unidentified fraud. No requirement to identify such fraud, just state there is, and then declare for their favored candidate based on their own brand of “legalized” GOP fraud. Fuckers…


----------



## ronntaylor

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Without saying it, kind of my point has been in order to counter the stupid and hate filled fearmongering of the Republicans you need to slap voters in the face with Democrat lead legislation they benefit from and they shouldn’t have to go digging for it. It should be an obvious benefit they are currently experiencing. Of course that wouldn’t decide it for everybody but it would go a long way.
> 
> As I mentioned previously, I think there is also a serious “We’ll just get it next time” apathy which is completely ignoring the fact that Republicans are doing everything in their power to prevent a next time. At best, look at their lust over Hungary which is only a democracy on paper and if you bothered to actually read that paper beyond the "democracy" title you’d see that it isn’t. To top it off, more and more people on the right are quite open about not wanting a democracy.
> 
> It's like somebody approaching you from across the street with a gun pointed at your head and you believe there's no way they would pull the trigger because they're so out in the open about it.  Then they pull the trigger and somehow you're still in disbelief...and dead.



Ohio should be an easy win for Dems. The infrastructure bill will mean jobs, training, and retraining for lots of unemployed/underemployed white workers (and of course Black working class folk, Latino working folk, etc). But they're still enamored with Mango. Not lots, but just enough to cause Dem losses. And too many Dems feel you have to cater to those fools. Tim Ryan is playing with fire with his anti-China rhetoric.


----------



## ronntaylor

One thing I forgot about Biden and relieving student debt burdens

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1519490586365116416/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

ronntaylor said:


> One thing I forgot about Biden and relieving student debt burdens
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1519490586365116416/




In a lot of ways I feel like Biden is a product of his time and while there are plenty of cringe and anger inducing moments from his long political career, I don’t consider him part of the most evil career politicians (important to note I am a white guy). But this also isn’t the time for a soft touch moderate attempting bipartisan support with a party who is completely disinterested and has moved past responsible governing into dismantling democracy and persecuting and punishing “others” with a list that qualifies somebody as an “other” growing bigger by the day.


----------



## Herdfan

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Do you think all that is enough to keep or win voters in purple states? If it is a bloodbath in the midterms, what would you say explains that?




I would say it is going to depend if the mood of the voters is to vote FOR something or AGAINST something.  And that is something each individual voter has to decide.


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> In a lot of ways I feel like Biden is a product of his time and while there are plenty of cringe and anger inducing moments from his long political career, I don’t consider him part of the most evil career politicians (important to note I am a white guy). But this also isn’t the time for a soft touch moderate attempting bipartisan support with a party who is completely disinterested and has moved past responsible governing into dismantling democracy and persecuting and punishing “others” with a list that qualifies somebody as an “other” growing bigger by the day.



I see 2 aspects here 1) Trying to be reasonable and work with the other side and 2) the appearance to the base of trying to be reasonable.

Now when the other side‘s response is _Fuck You, put up your fists!, _worse, shows just how _fuck you, kill-democracy, anti-constitutional, cheat, lie, and steal to seize wins at any cost _they are, and not only that but they are ignorant dip-shits, who don’t even understand or appreciate how cooperative governing democracy  is supposed to, should work, and there are enough of these ass holes elected because of the racist assholes back home, then as evident by the state of the USA in 2022, we are in DEEP SHIT.

And I say this a lot, we look at the Trump inspired losers in Congress as the threat, but really the threat are the losers back home who elected them and think they are just the best. Compare today to 1960. We are now  electing people who would  not have ever been considered for leadership positions before.  Our standards have plummeted just like our prospects. Based on the ideals the country was founded upon, we have a cancer that is consuming us and it’s easy to ask _who are we and how long do we have?_


----------



## Herdfan

I see what you are saying, and I wish there was more civility.  But at this point in time, both sides are as bad as the other.  Think of all the things Dems were for until Trump was for them and then they ran for the hills.  And no, the GOP is no better.  Neither side wants to let the other have a win.

Some times I think more would get done if Congress could cast their ballots anonymously.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Politico is reporting on a draft memo showing the Supreme Court is poised to strike down Roe vs. Wade. (The leak is another story in and of itself).

I’m not sure if this will be good or bad for republicans. Trump will get a lot of glory for this, and rightfully so. We can say the Supreme Court picks were luck, etc, but he seated three justices regardless.

Will it turn out dems and flip independents blue? Will it rally conservatives? This may hurt conservatives more than it helps. If the dog catches the car, it may not end up as just a big celebration and then return to life as normal.

The reality of a young pre-teen being raped and forced to deliver a child is a very real scenario. I don’t see that as a positive for republicans.









						Draft majority opinion signals Supreme Court may overturn Roe v. Wade — POLITICO
					

“We hold that Roe and Casey must be overruled,” Justice Alito writes in an initial majority draft circulated inside the court.




					apple.news


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> This may hurt conservatives more than it helps.




I fear you may be correct.


----------



## GermanSuplex

From a political standpoint, it will be a long-sought and hard earned victory. But the payoff will probably be worse than the win.


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> I see what you are saying, and I wish there was more civility.  But at this point in time, both sides are as bad as the other.  Think of all the things Dems were for until Trump was for them and then they ran for the hills.  And no, the GOP is no better.  Neither side wants to let the other have a win.
> 
> Some times I think more would get done if Congress could cast their ballots anonymously.



I see a distinct difference between Dems and the GOP and this is not with partisan blinders on, it regards:

Basic honestly 
Adherence to laws and the Constitution. 
A concern for all citizens, not just their base.
What we saw happen with the 2020 election was all sorts of schemes by Trump/GOP forces to undermine the election result, false accusations of fraud, and subsequently in the States controlled by Republikans we are seeing laws attempting to be passed to allow them to overturn the 2024 election based on any vague, unsubstantiated  accusations of fraud. These people are _Trump smart _and will do whatever is necessary to win honestly or not.


----------



## SuperMatt

Huntn said:


> I see a distinct difference between Dems and the GOP and this is not with partisan blinders on, it regards:
> 
> Basic honestly
> Adherence to laws and the Constitution.
> A concern for all citizens, not just their base.
> What we saw happen with the 2020 election was all sorts of schemes by Trump/GOP forces to undermine the election result, false accusations of fraud, and subsequently in the States controlled by Republikans we are seeing laws attempting to be passed to allow them to overturn the 2024 election based on any vague, unsubstantiated  accusations of fraud. These people are _Trump smart _and will do whatever is necessary to win honestly or not.



Agreed. With the emergence of Trump, one can no longer say “both sides are equally bad” with a straight face.

When one party kicks members out simply for acknowledging reality (the 2020 election outcome), they cannot possibly expect to throw any stones from that glass house.


----------



## ronntaylor

SuperMatt said:


> Agreed. With the emergence of Trump, one can no longer say “both sides are equally bad” with a straight face.



It's a waste of time to "argue" with those that espouse such nonsense/outright lies. One would have a better chance of debate with a pile of  on the sidewalk.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Herdfan said:


> I see what you are saying, and I wish there was more civility.  But at this point in time, both sides are as bad as the other.  Think of all the things Dems were for until Trump was for them and then they ran for the hills.  And no, the GOP is no better.  Neither side wants to let the other have a win.
> 
> Some times I think more would get done if Congress could cast their ballots anonymously.



Let's be honest.  "Both sides are as bad as the other" if one really needs them to be.

Which side touting law & order, beat up cops, and got a few killed because they didn't get their way?



> Ex-NYPD officer guilty of assaulting police officer at US Capitol riot
> 
> 
> A former New York City police officer was convicted Monday of assaulting a Washington, DC, police officer during the January 6 riot at the US Capitol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com




That was inspired by the dogma & politics of one side, to run around yelling about hanging the VP.  To storm the capital.  To call people who aren't on board with various phobias as "groomers".  To literally yell at school officials they know where they live, over mask mandates.

No.

That's a spectacular f'n reach to say "both sides are bad as the other" that would make Reed Richards bones snap from over reach as one tried to cherry pick a handful of incidents compared to the encyclopedia of extremist bad behavior of the other side in just the last year.


----------



## Renzatic

This whole pedophilia hunt among the hardcore Trump fanatics is getting ridiculous. They'll pretty much lash out at anything involving kids now, assuming that there MUST BE some sexual innuendo buried beneath the innocent facade that HAS to be dealt with.

Case in point, my Facebook picture for the last 11 years has been a zoomed in class picture of me in 2nd grade, proudly displaying my newly grown adult front teeth in all their woodchucking glory. So OF COURSE some rando has to comment on it, asking why I identify with this poor, exploited child, whether I identify said child as male or female, and whether I have any sexual attraction to him/her/plur.

...it's just so fucked up, I can't even.


----------



## ronntaylor

Response to Chief Justice (Denier) Roberts: "They believe in a fundamental right to privacy for their deliberations about shredding women's right to privacy."


----------



## Joe

Renzatic said:


> This whole pedophilia hunt among the hardcore Trump fanatics is getting ridiculous. They'll pretty much lash out at anything involving kids now, assuming that there MUST BE some sexual innuendo buried beneath the innocent facade that HAS to be dealt with.
> 
> Case in point, my Facebook picture for the last 11 years has been a zoomed in class picture of me in 2nd grade, proudly displaying my newly grown adult front teeth in all their woodchucking glory. So OF COURSE some rando has to comment on it, asking why I identify with this poor, exploited child, whether I identify said child as male or female, and whether I have any sexual attraction to him/her/plur.
> 
> ...it's just so fucked up, I can't even.




Your first mistake was being on facebook lol


----------



## Renzatic

Joe said:


> Your first mistake was being on facebook lol




Can't argue with that!

Oh well. I'm banned for another 30 days again anyway.


----------



## SuperMatt

Renzatic said:


> Can't argue with that!
> 
> Oh well. I'm banned for another 30 days again anyway.



When Elon Musk buys Facebook, you’ll
never get banned again!


----------



## Renzatic

SuperMatt said:


> When Elon Musk buys Facebook, you’ll
> never get banned again!




I can't wait to drop all those n-bombs! NO ONE CAN STOP ME! IT'S FREEDOM!


----------



## ronntaylor

I wonder how the Supreme leak will play in today's primaries. Especially for Tim Ryan in Ohio. Or really his GOP opponents.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy




----------



## Eric

ronntaylor said:


> I wonder how the Supreme leak will play in today's primaries. Especially for Tim Ryan in Ohio. Or really his GOP opponents.



I've been maintaining that Democrats will likely lose it all but this could be a game changer. They tend to become sedentary during midterms but this will be huge in motivating them and turning out the vote and when they show up it's always bad news for Republicans. Polls show an overwhelming amount of Americans support keeping Roe v Wade and this puts Republicans' backs against the wall.


----------



## SuperMatt

ronntaylor said:


> I wonder how the Supreme leak will play in today's primaries. Especially for Tim Ryan in Ohio. Or really his GOP opponents.



It doesn’t appear to have had any effect on primaries. Trump is still the leader of the party, it appears. He endorsed 12 people, and all 12 won. I notice that few won by landslides. In a number of of the GOP primaries, the winner got only 20-30% of the vote. The media darling JD Vance got 32%… so perhaps the Trump endorsement is enough to win a primary. But not by a landslide, and perhaps not enough to win in the general election.


----------



## Huntn

SuperMatt said:


> It doesn’t appear to have had any effect on primaries. Trump is still the leader of the party, it appears. He endorsed 12 people, and all 12 won. I notice that few won by landslides. In a number of of the GOP primaries, the winner got only 20-30% of the vote. The media darling JD Vance got 32%… so perhaps the Trump endorsement is enough to win a primary. But not by a landslide, and perhaps not enough to win in the general election.



We can always hope, but I’m not counting on it.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Not the best start, if you are going all in on the crazy & stupid








> Michigan Democrat Flips Deep-Red District After Opponent Told His Daughters to 'Lie Back and Enjoy' Rape
> 
> 
> Carol Glanville will be the first Democrat to represent Michigan’s 74th District in the state House in nearly 30 years
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rollingstone.com


----------



## AG_PhamD

SuperMatt said:


> It doesn’t appear to have had any effect on primaries. Trump is still the leader of the party, it appears. He endorsed 12 people, and all 12 won. I notice that few won by landslides. In a number of of the GOP primaries, the winner got only 20-30% of the vote. The media darling JD Vance got 32%… so perhaps the Trump endorsement is enough to win a primary. But not by a landslide, and perhaps not enough to win in the general election.




One analysis I heard is it won’t make difference because those who feel strongly about abortion are already strongly attached to their respective political party. The most pro-choice states are already overwhelmingly democrat and the most pro-life states are already overwhelmingly republican. Then there’s everyone else where abortion is so far down on their list of priorities they are going to vote based on other reasons, even if they disagree with the SC decision.


----------



## Renzatic

> Part of the swing can be explained by the fact that Regan appears to be a complete monster. “Feminism is only applied against white men, because it has absolutely nothing to do with protecting women as a sex or defending the feelings of individual women,” he posted on social media in May 2021, according to _The Detroit News_. “It is a Jewish program to degrade and subjugate white men.”




Damnit, Jews! Why don't yall just stop with the crazy conspiracies, huh? Don't you think the space laser is enough?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

AG_PhamD said:


> One analysis I heard is it won’t make difference because those who feel strongly about abortion are already strongly attached to their respective political party. The most pro-choice states are already overwhelmingly democrat and the most pro-life states are already overwhelmingly republican. Then there’s everyone else where abortion is so far down on their list of priorities they are going to vote based on other reasons, even if they disagree with the SC decision.





I saw a similar analysis.

I think a key difference in voter mentality currently is on the right literally everything is a slippery slope just on the mention of something while on the left almost nothing is. If somebody brings up socialized healthcare the right thinks we are already living in Venezuela just because they mentioned it. Meanwhile, the right is actively passing all these restrictive voting and abortion laws and the left is “Maybe things won’t get that bad. We have guardrails.” which is the mantra of every losing side that slid from democracy to authoritarianism.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I live in ultra liberal Silicon Valley and this was on the pump when I went to get gas yesterday.  The insinuation is either Biden caused gas prices to go up or isn’t doing anything about it.  I believe I paid $5.65 a gallon for the lowest grade.


----------



## Nycturne

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I live in ultra liberal Silicon Valley and this was on the pump when I went to get gas yesterday.  The insinuation is either Biden caused gas prices to go up or isn’t doing anything about it.  I believe I paid $5.65 a gallon for the lowest grade.




While I don’t live in Silicon Valley, I do work in one of the other larger Big Tech regions, and there’s a surprisingly strong libertarian streak in both regions from what I can tell. We’re blue in aggregate, but oh boy the Tech Bros I’ve worked with…


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Republican Who Allegedly Murdered His Wife With a Flower Pot Wins Local Primary From Jail
					

Andrew Wilhoite is likely to still be incarcerated by the time the general election rolls around in November, unless he decides to drop out of the race




					www.rollingstone.com


----------



## Renzatic

Marjorie Taylor Greene has been cleared to run again on the ballot. The only thing that stands between her reelection is Brad Raffensperger, who will probably opt to leave her be, since he too is running for reelection.



			https://newschannel9.com/news/election/rep-marjorie-taylor-greene-appears-at-hearing-challenging-eligibility-friday-in-atlanta?fbclid=IwAR2gGA1qSeJkhaem_IC8i2FLsFRgEmcqgNpYyg_IRHJeuJ6hNlwzUdIoGc8


----------



## Joe

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Republican Who Allegedly Murdered His Wife With a Flower Pot Wins Local Primary From Jail
> 
> 
> Andrew Wilhoite is likely to still be incarcerated by the time the general election rolls around in November, unless he decides to drop out of the race
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rollingstone.com






It's. A. Cult.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Joe said:


> It's. A. Cult.




The guy is remarkably on brand for Trump supporters.  If Trump got thrown in prison for life his supporters would still want him to run.....and after about 5 minutes of thought McConnell would word salad support it...which would be upheld by the current activist supreme court.

I'm not saying all Republicans are this insane but I wish they would wake the fuck up and acknowledge this element and serious threat.  Democrats aren't running their mouths going "Hyper progressives?  What do you mean?  We don't have any of those in our party, just patriots."


----------



## Joe

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> The guy is remarkably on brand for Trump supporters.  If Trump got thrown in prison for life his supporters would still want him to run.....and after about 5 minutes of thought McConnell would word salad support it...which would be upheld by the current activist supreme court.
> 
> I'm not saying all Republicans are this insane but I wish they would wake the fuck up and acknowledge this element and serious threat.  Democrats aren't running their mouths going "Hyper progressives?  What do you mean?  We don't have any of those in our party, just patriots."




Just based on what I see on social media, Republicans are dead set on supporting Republicans no matter what they do. I know my social media viewing isn't scientific, but they are so scared of losing power and white people becoming the minority in this country that they will support whomever they need to support with an R next to their name no matter how stupid that person is.  It could come out tomorrow that Trump, Cruz, and Abbott raped 12 year old girls and they would still call it fake news and vote for them again. These folks are that into the cult. I saw it during the TX freeze last year. TX is a red state with a republican governor, but they somehow managed to blame our freeze on AOC and liberals LOL There is nothing you can do with these people. The US is just full of fucking idiots that continue to vote against their own interest. People in TX will continue to vote these idiots in even if they have to freeze every year and risk possible death. The US will crumble one day, and it will be from within. It won't be an outside threat. Every year we get closer and closer to Gilead.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Joe said:


> Just based on what I see on social media, Republicans are dead set on supporting Republicans no matter what they do. I know my social media viewing isn't scientific, but they are so scared of losing power and white people becoming the minority in this country that they will support whomever they need to support with an R next to their name no matter how stupid that person is.  It could come out tomorrow that Trump, Cruz, and Abbott raped 12 year old girls and they would still call it fake news and vote for them again. These folks are that into the cult. I saw it during the TX freeze last year. TX is a red state with a republican governor, but they somehow managed to blame our freeze on AOC and liberals LOL There is nothing you can do with these people. The US is just full of fucking idiots that continue to vote against their own interest. People in TX will continue to vote these idiots in even if they have to freeze every year and risk possible death. The US will crumble one day, and it will be from within. It won't be an outside threat. Every year we get closer and closer to Gilead.




The elevation of states' rights will destroy the US.  I'm not against some state's rights, but at some point, and we're almost there, it's preposterous to call us the "united" states.  Our federal government is a joke and that's the Republican's plan.  So I say we dissolve the whole damn thing and become more like the European Union.  Let the red states manage their own welfare system without help from the blue states.  Have at it.


----------



## Renzatic

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Let the red states manage their own welfare system without help from the blue states. Have at it.




That's not fair to states like North Dakota, which is basically a dumping ground for 200,000 poor people! THIS IS LIBERAL TYRANNY! YOU WANT TO TAKE AWAY THEIR QUALITY OF LIFE FOR YOUR STUPID WOKE POLITICS!


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Renzatic said:


> That's not fair to states like North Dakota, which is basically a dumping ground for 200,000 poor people! THIS IS LIBERAL TYRANNY! YOU WANT TO TAKE AWAY THEIR QUALITY OF LIFE FOR YOUR STUPID WOKE POLITICS!




I want the great state of North Dakota to take care of their great people.

Honestly I don't think it will be utopian in either all blue countries or all red countries, and some will definitely be downgraded to shit hole country status overnight, but I think we've had enough of each other's shit and it's time to just evolve and move away from thinking we're united.  We're clearly not.  It doesn't have to be all horrific slaughter of each other.  We can compete in sporting events while living in a place more aligned with our idealogy.


----------



## Renzatic

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I want the great state of North Dakota to take care of their great people.
> 
> Honestly I don't think it will be utopian in either all blue countries or all red countries, and some will definitely be downgraded to shit hole country status overnight, but I think we've had enough of each other's shit and it's time to just evolve and move away from thinking we're united.  We're clearly not.  It doesn't have to be all horrific slaughter of each other.  We can compete in sporting events while living in a place more aligned with our idealogy.




It'd be an utter disaster from top to bottom. None of the individual states have the resources necessary to sustain their populations with resources from within their own borders. The best case scenario is that these 50 individual countries allow interstate travel and commerce to continue unabated, but how would, say, Missouri deal with one of their sovereign citizens earning a paycheck in that godless liberal hellhole that is Illinois, putting money into their government's coffers?

California and Texas are probably about the only two states that could initially survive the transition. They're our two most wealthy, populous states in the union. Problem is, they both have to get their food and water from other states. They're both coastal states, so they could rely on foreign import to get their needed supplies. Problem there is that the cost would be an exponentially greater sink on their budget relative to what they had previously. That, amongst myriad other issues, would lead to these newfound countries having to raise taxes on their citizens to higher levels than they were paying under the aegis of the previously United States to compensate.

Long story short, the richer states might be able to outlast the poorer ones, but they'll all eventually fail for various reasons. We'd all be within 3-5 years of total societal collapse. The end result won't be 50 peaceful states living in harmony. It'd be total balkanization, with each state blaming the others for their current poor situation.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Renzatic said:


> That's not fair to states like North Dakota, which is basically a dumping ground for 200,000 poor people! THIS IS LIBERAL TYRANNY! YOU WANT TO TAKE AWAY THEIR QUALITY OF LIFE FOR YOUR STUPID WOKE POLITICS!






Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I want the great state of North Dakota to take care of their great people.
> 
> Honestly I don't think it will be utopian in either all blue countries or all red countries, and some will definitely be downgraded to shit hole country status overnight, but I think we've had enough of each other's shit and it's time to just evolve and move away from thinking we're united.  We're clearly not.  It doesn't have to be all horrific slaughter of each other.  We can compete in sporting events while living in a place more aligned with our idealogy.



You guys are both leaving out something that would come of prioritizing state's rights.  Flight.  People living in places crying about how "woke" their state is MAY flee to a "non woke" state.  Imagining it's some throwback to a bygone day of America's mythical TV past.  Perhaps having to live near a state's border by a "woke" state to get that job at a company that doesn't want to be in a "non woke" state.  Where people in a "woke" state have to get all their art & crafts & Chik Fil A by delivery.  Where some states will shamelessly despite the violations, punish a company that speaks out against a governor's plan or attempts to wean from that state's dependence on fossil fuel.

The most illuminating is when governors decide to penalize anyone trying to leave or seek a service elsewhere that the state outlawed, all the while crying later about the intrusion of gov't into people's lives.  To the eventual crying that one state is illegally using resources of their own for themselves, when they shared previously.

It will be good times for all.


----------



## Alli

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I live in ultra liberal Silicon Valley and this was on the pump when I went to get gas yesterday. The insinuation is either Biden caused gas prices to go up or isn’t doing anything about it. I believe I paid $5.65 a gallon for the lowest grade.



My husband takes great glee in ripping off those stickers. Then he goes on a lengthy tirade about inflation (in general) and the cost of gas in other countries … and how either Biden is mighty powerful to control gas prices in so many other countries, or the people blaming him are full of shit.


----------



## GermanSuplex

People blaming inflation on Biden when you have executives on tape bragging about raising prices and reaping the rewards. This is a manufactured inflation due to the unrelenting and unregulated corporate greed. They weren’t talking about offsetting costs, or making it through a pandemic - just that raising prices is good, do it when you can, people get used to high prices.

Republicans would rather point at Biden and democrats and vote for racists who will reward that behavior with more tax cuts for the wealthy and cuts to services and increased taxes and prices for the rest of us.


----------



## SuperMatt

GermanSuplex said:


> People blaming inflation on Biden when you have executives on tape bragging about raising prices and reaping the rewards. This is a manufactured inflation due to the unrelenting and unregulated corporate greed. They weren’t talking about offsetting costs, or making it through a pandemic - just that raising prices is good, do it when you can, people get used to high prices.
> 
> Republicans would rather point at Biden and democrats and vote for racists who will reward that behavior with more tax cuts for the wealthy and cuts to services and increased taxes and prices for the rest of us.



You don’t need to catch the executives on tape. Just look at the oil companies making record profits. But they claim they’re just “covering their costs” - bull-.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> People blaming inflation on Biden when you have executives on tape bragging about raising prices and reaping the rewards. This is a manufactured inflation due to the unrelenting and unregulated corporate greed. They weren’t talking about offsetting costs, or making it through a pandemic - just that raising prices is good, do it when you can, people get used to high prices.
> 
> Republicans would rather point at Biden and democrats and vote for racists who will reward that behavior with more tax cuts for the wealthy and cuts to services and increased taxes and prices for the rest of us.




Democrats are currently the party of letting shit happen and doing little about it, if anything at all.  I fully expect any legislative attempts before the mid terms to center around a specific voting block instead of the American people as a whole.  I wouldn't be surprised if they went full lazy and just focused entirely on abortion.  The Democrat party has no leadership.  None.  And I challenge anybody to tell me what the party is currently about based on current performance.


----------



## SuperMatt

Max Boot of the Washington Post sounds the alarm bell on the possible end of American Democracy.

https://wapo.st/3FCuyBj
(paywall removed)

If the GOP takes the House of Representatives in 2022:



> Republican state legislatures in swing states that Biden (or another Democrat) narrowly wins can claim the results are fraudulent and send in competing slates of electors pledged to Trump. The House and Senate would then vote on which electors to accept. Even if the Senate remains Democratic, a GOP-controlled House could prevent Biden from getting the 270 electoral votes needed to win. It would then fall to the House to decide the presidency.
> 
> A majority of House Republicans already voted in 2020 to throw out electoral college votes for Biden. Even more are likely to do so in 2024 after four years of Trumpist purges. With the support of the Jan. 6 Republicans, the orange emperor can waltz back into the White House and finish destroying U.S. democracy.




Will the Republicans continue on the path of a fascist takeover? I mean, it has already begun. Think of how many Supreme Court justices were appointed by Presidents who didn’t win a majority of the American vote, confirmed by a Senate that didn’t reflect a majority of Americans. With the Supreme Court deciding to become a super-legislature, we are basically at the mercy of unelected representatives of a minority party, all of them in place until they die.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> Max Boot of the Washington Post sounds the alarm bell on the possible end of American Democracy.
> 
> https://wapo.st/3FCuyBj
> (paywall removed)
> 
> If the GOP takes the House of Representatives in 2022:
> 
> 
> 
> Will the Republicans continue on the path of a fascist takeover? I mean, it has already begun. Think of how many Supreme Court justices were appointed by Presidents who didn’t win a majority of the American vote, confirmed by a Senate that didn’t reflect a majority of Americans. With the Supreme Court deciding to become a super-legislature, we are basically at the mercy of unelected representatives of a minority party, all of them in place until they die.





The way I see it, their lies on economics are no longer being bought by their voters.  Trump gave them an inroad to a new frontier, culture wars.  That's why they are going nearly 100% on that and you hear little about anything else.  It's the one strand they have left to hang by as a political party.

The only way I see out of this is an end to a 2 major party system.  We need 3 or more major parties, but those who exist comfortably in the 2 party system would rather see it all burn down before allowing that to happen, and that goes for both Republicans and Democrats.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> The way I see it, their lies on economics are no longer being bought by their voters.  Trump gave them an inroad to a new frontier, culture wars.  That's why they are going nearly 100% on that and you hear little about anything else.  It's the one strand they have left to hang by as a political party.
> 
> The only way I see out of this is an end to a 2 major party system.  We need 3 or more major parties, but those who exist comfortably in the 2 party system would rather see it all burn down before allowing that to happen, and that goes for both Republicans and Democrats.



Sorry, you can’t “both sides” this one. One “side” is FOR everybody getting a vote. The other isn’t. Can’t get any more clear on which “side” opposes democracy.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> Sorry, you can’t “both sides” this one. One “side” is FOR everybody getting a vote. The other isn’t. Can’t get any more clear on which “side” opposes democracy.




The big illusion of the 2 party system is that there are only 2 sides and each side is in unilateral agreement.  The fact that Congress can’t get anything done is proof that, that isn’t the reality.


----------



## Herdfan

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> The way I see it, their lies on economics are no longer being bought by their voters.




And how is everyone's economic well-being right now?

Whether it is causation or just correlation, people are struggling and are going to blame Biden and the Dems.  Right or wrong, that is just how it is.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> And how is everyone's economic well-being right now?
> 
> Whether it is causation or just correlation, people are struggling and are going to blame Biden and the Dems.  Right or wrong, that is just how it is.




Most people’s economics are in the shitter.

What I’m saying is they could no longer perpetuate the myth that giving rich people and corporations even more money would somehow make it to the common citizen’s wallet in any impactful or long lasting way. At best they could call it a failed experiment that went on way too long (and continues to). I think the death blow was the massive government bailouts which made things crystal clear.  Now we have the nail in the coffin that is as soon as the workers started getting ahead with raises profiteer generated inflation hit wiping all that out. 

I hate where the current breed of Republicans are taking us, but on the left all I see is begging people to defend a system that is corrupt as fuck with no intention of changing that.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Good bait and switch in there.  Be that as it may, Americans like to believe they are immune to global issues.   There’s America and there’s everybody else.   If everybody else is having an issue that shouldn’t mean we are having that same issue.  If we are then it’s our government’s fault.  

Having said that, it does feel like our government is doing little more than finger pointing.  Not a word about the struggle of those at the top or the sacrifices they are making, possibly because that’s not happening.  Pretty much the opposite of that is happening by all accounts.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

As easy and lazy as it is to blame Biden (or any administration) for the current economic problems, I don't hear any solutions being offered by the right and they have a pretty good track record of blocking everything that even remotely resembles economic asistance.  And I'm sorry, but kicking more people off welfare isn't going to decrease the cost of your mortgage or grocery bill.  It seems their solution is more of a psychological attempt, you may be fucked but you're better off because we made sure more people are more fucked than you.  There's pride in being among the lesser fucked.


----------



## Herdfan

Looks like the new NY map is not favoring the Dems.









						Draft of NY congressional redistricting map 'absolutely brutal' for Dems
					

A draft of a new congressional districting map for the state of New York appears to give Republicans a big boost compared to the lines Democratic lawmakers had originally drawn.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Looks like the new NY map is not favoring the Dems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Draft of NY congressional redistricting map 'absolutely brutal' for Dems
> 
> 
> A draft of a new congressional districting map for the state of New York appears to give Republicans a big boost compared to the lines Democratic lawmakers had originally drawn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com



Thanks for sharing the story, but Fox offers little information past the headline. Here’s an article with considerably more detail.









						New York's new congressional maps would place 5 pairs of incumbents in the same districts
					

The maps for New York's 26 congressional districts will play an instrumental role in whether Democrats can retain control of the House in the midterm elections.




					www.politico.com
				




Funny thing, I was on the Fox site and saw this headline:



> Republicans claim victory in congressional redistricting fight​



I thought it would be another story about NY state.…. Nope. It’s a story mainly focused on the court overturning the DeSantis map in Florida… which is literally the opposite of a victory for Republicans. Good ol‘ Fox News. Maybe they need to bring back the “no spin zone“ because… yeah.









						Republicans claim victory in congressional redistricting fight
					

The National Republican Redistricting Trust argues that it's won the once-in-a-decade congressional redistricting faceoff between the two major political parties.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

Cawthorne is OUT.









						Rep. Madison Cawthorn concedes to Chuck Edwards in GOP primary for North Carolina seat — CNN Politics
					

Rep. Madison Cawthorn conceded his race in the GOP primary for North Carolina's 11th District to opponent Chuck Edwards in a phone call, Cawthorn spokesperson Luke Ball said.




					apple.news


----------



## shadow puppet

GermanSuplex said:


> Cawthorne is OUT.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rep. Madison Cawthorn concedes to Chuck Edwards in GOP primary for North Carolina seat — CNN Politics
> 
> 
> Rep. Madison Cawthorn conceded his race in the GOP primary for North Carolina's 11th District to opponent Chuck Edwards in a phone call, Cawthorn spokesperson Luke Ball said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



Such blissful news.  I was ecstatic when I first read the news last night.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

shadow puppet said:


> Such blissful news.  I was ecstatic when I first read the news last night.




As great as that is, it doesn't change the fact that he got paid extremely well to do little more than be a troll.

However, unlike most former politicians I don't really see a clear career path after this stunt.  I can't imagine him being much of an experience or connection rich asset to anybody.


----------



## ronntaylor

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> However, unlike most former politicians I don't really see a clear career path after this stunt. I can't imagine him being much of an experience or connection rich asset to anybody.



He'll be on Faux Noise soon!! Wouldn't surprise me if he quits before December.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

ronntaylor said:


> He'll be on Faux Noise soon!! Wouldn't surprise me if he quits before December.




I don't think he even qualifies to be the gate guard at a trailer park.  So yeah, Fox News political expert is probably his best option.  Or he could probably go down the path of similarly disgraced flashes in the pan and become a porn star.  Congressional orgies could be a fetish.


----------



## ronntaylor

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I don't think he even qualifies to be the gate guard at a trailer park.  So yeah, Fox News political expert is probably his best option.  Or he could probably go down the path of similarly disgraced flashes in the pan and become a porn star.  Congressional orgies could be a fetish.



More like occasional talking head. I don't think even Faux Noise would want him on the air too much. Some Repugnant aligned outfit will employ him for their needs. Unfortunately, he'll probably run for office again. Probably as early as 2024. Maybe even for state office in NC as enough loons truly like him. Especially with Mango's blessing. Although I wonder how he feels with one of his endorsed candidates going down in flames.


----------



## Eric

I'm going to hell for laughing at this...


Madison Cawthorn's political career from
      PoliticalHumor


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Somehow 14% of Americans think the economy is in good or excellent shape.  At minimum I bet 100% of that 14% drives a Tesla.  Never having to go to the gas station is the only way I can conceive of how those people think the economy is good to excellent.  That, and they are probably part of the crisis profiteer class.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Supreme Court allows states to use unlawfully gerrymandered congressional maps in the 2022 midterm elections
					

A ruling by the US Supreme Court to allow unlawful maps to be used in the midterm elections will affect who gets elected to the House of Representatives and may determine control of Congress.




					theconversation.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Supreme Court allows states to use unlawfully gerrymandered congressional maps in the 2022 midterm elections
> 
> 
> A ruling by the US Supreme Court to allow unlawful maps to be used in the midterm elections will affect who gets elected to the House of Representatives and may determine control of Congress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theconversation.com



Gerrymandering is out of control (due to advanced data analytics and other factors). Instead of doing something about it, the Supreme Court insists it’s the same as it’s always been. We may have the worst set of justices ever on the court. It’s not just missing what’s happening in the modern world, it’s actively making the consequences worse… guns, abortion, voting rights… they are trying to impose 18th century values on a society that moved past them 2 centuries ago. Even the Republicans that think they‘re winning right now are going to lose when our country falls into ruin.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> Gerrymandering is out of control (due to advanced data analytics and other factors). Instead of doing something about it, the Supreme Court insists it’s the same as it’s always been. We may have the worst set of justices ever on the court. It’s not just missing what’s happening in the modern world, it’s actively making the consequences worse… guns, abortion, voting rights… they are trying to impose 18th century values on a society that moved past them 2 centuries ago. Even the Republicans that think they‘re winning right now are going to lose when our country falls into ruin.




If the right regains control I look forward to them explaining how to pay our bills with fear and outrage.  Will it be like bitcoin but with government backing?  I'm sure the reason we haven't heard about their economic plan is because they've all been canceled.


----------



## GermanSuplex

The 2022 and 2024 elections are going to be brutal. There’s been little to no complaining about the primaries, which are being held virtually the same way, but wait until the general. To complicate matters, republicans putting all these restrictive laws in place and with revelations of just how far Trump and his feckless cult followers have worked to overturn the actual vote, democrats will probably be wary of the ultimate outcomes themselves.

Going to be a total shitshow. Republicans will rejoice and totally ignore their concerns about election fraud if they win, but double-down on it if they lose. Trump has not only convinced them they either win or the system is broken, but that they literally cannot trust anyone who ever goes against his will. If there’s a judge on a case, they must be a conservative or else they must be biased. If a conservative rules against him, they must be a RINO.

You’ve got republicans pulling out their guns during discussions on gun safety. They’re wanting to turn elementary  teachers into armed guards. They’re outlawing acknowledging or helping LGTBQ youth. Their racism is so bad I feel we’re about to see the return of the n-word to their everyday discussions.

Republicans have done a good job convincing a majority of their base that they win or the elections are rigged, and that sentiment has gotten stronger since 2020, not weaker.


----------



## Herdfan

I am putting this here because I don't think it necessitates its own thread and is related to the '22 Midterms.


So, will SF DA Gascon be recalled today?  Should he be?


----------



## DT

GermanSuplex said:


> Trump has not only convinced them they either win or the system is broken, but that they literally cannot trust anyone who ever goes against his will.




I remember people refuting Joe Biden's win because of the number of boats in a parade in Florida for that f***ing orange halfwit.  That was before we realized it's a cult, there's no logic, no amount of science or data - only "The Word" from their lord and savior is the truth.


----------



## SuperMatt

I voted in the DC primaries today!


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I’m sure if the Democrats want to contest or investigate the results of an election in a red or purple state they’ll get the full cooperation of the local authorities. Not. Then they’ll just fling it to the supreme court which will site the long standing originalist precedent of Bush v Gore. They’re probably writing up the ruling as we speak. Or maybe they’ll just go all in on the amount of effort and preparation to rig an election shall outweigh the voting results in a close outcome.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I’m sure if the Democrats want to contest or investigate the results of an election in a red or purple state they’ll get the full cooperation of the local authorities. Not. Then they’ll just fling it to the supreme court which will site the long standing originalist precedent of Bush v Gore. They’re probably writing up the ruling as we speak. Or maybe they’ll just go all in on the amount of effort and preparation to rig an election shall outweigh the voting results in a close outcome.



They will just appoint Ginni Thomas as President.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> They will just appoint Ginni Thomas as President.




And hail it as a bright spot of interracial marriage where a black man knows his place.


----------



## SuperMatt

At this point in 2014, Republicans were polling 20-30 points ahead of Democrats.

Right now, many races are just about even.

Biden’s approval numbers are in the toilet, but Republicans might fail to take advantage of it. After all, as low as Biden’s numbers are, approval of Republicans in Congress is at 23%.

Perhaps the crazies in the GOP are going to be such a liability that the party finally gets rid of them. Herschel Walker, JD Vance, and Dr. Oz are poised to lose in Senate races that would probably be a slam-dunk for the GOP if they had sane candidates running. Three Senate seats they cannot afford to lose.

The Republican strategy is to go extreme and full-Trump. This is working fine in gerrymandered districts. But in any competitive district, and in statewide races, this is more a liability than a strength. Maryland, a “blue” state, has had a Republican governor for many years, but this year an extreme Trump-lover got the nomination. It’s pretty much guaranteed that a Democrat will be governor of the state now.

How many state-wide races are the Republicans willing to forfeit to keep the insane Trump cult happy? If 2022 goes to the Democrats in a year that seemed impossible for Republicans to lose, will that be enough? Or is this affliction incurable?


----------



## Roller

Here's some social commentary from everyone's favorite congressman, Matt Gaetz, echoing what his mentor, Donald Trump, said about women:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1550962959899295748/


----------



## Renzatic

Roller said:


> Here's some social commentary from everyone's favorite congressman, Matt Gaetz, echoing what his mentor, Donald Trump, said about women:




Democrats might be mealymouthed, ineffectual wafflers, always afraid to push things to the point where they need to be pushed, but Republicans are basically trash doing everything they can to appeal to trash.

So things are going pretty par for the course.


----------



## SuperMatt

Renzatic said:


> Democrats might be mealymouthed, ineffectual wafflers, always afraid to push things to the point where they need to be pushed, but Republicans are basically trash doing everything they can to appeal to trash.
> 
> So things are going pretty par for the course.



This is EXACTLY why I absolutely reject it when people say “Democrats need to be more like Republicans.”

No. Democrats don’t lose because Republican politicians are doing something great. They lose because Democratic voters stay home half the time, while Republicans show up at every single election, even for dogcatcher. Every time turnout is high, Dems win. It’s not rocket science.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> At this point in 2014, Republicans were polling 20-30 points ahead of Democrats.
> 
> Right now, many races are just about even.
> 
> Biden’s approval numbers are in the toilet, but Republicans might fail to take advantage of it. After all, as low as Biden’s numbers are, approval of Republicans in Congress is at 23%.
> 
> Perhaps the crazies in the GOP are going to be such a liability that the party finally gets rid of them. Herschel Walker, JD Vance, and Dr. Oz are poised to lose in Senate races that would probably be a slam-dunk for the GOP if they had sane candidates running. Three Senate seats they cannot afford to lose.
> 
> The Republican strategy is to go extreme and full-Trump. This is working fine in gerrymandered districts. But in any competitive district, and in statewide races, this is more a liability than a strength. Maryland, a “blue” state, has had a Republican governor for many years, but this year an extreme Trump-lover got the nomination. It’s pretty much guaranteed that a Democrat will be governor of the state now.
> 
> How many state-wide races are the Republicans willing to forfeit to keep the insane Trump cult happy? If 2022 goes to the Democrats in a year that seemed impossible for Republicans to lose, will that be enough? Or is this affliction incurable?




It’s pretty well known now that Democrats have been supporting the most extreme Republican candidates in open primaries and even running ads for them in the hopes that they will be easier to beat in the mid term election.  Thats one strategy but thats also what they thought about Trump in 2016 which I think also partially contributed to Hillary’s apathy.  I remember some SNL debate skits where the camera would go to Hillary when Trump was talking and she’d have this smug "I’ll just let him dig his own grave" grin on her face.

We can just hope things will be different this time as the clear greater evil has been time tested and they continue to pile on more evil in case you forgot.


----------



## Roller

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> It’s pretty well known now that Democrats have been supporting the most extreme Republican candidates in open primaries and even running ads for them in the hopes that they will be easier to beat in the mid term election.  Thats one strategy but thats also what they thought about Trump in 2016 which I think also partially contributed to Hillary’s apathy.  I remember some SNL debate skits where the camera would go to Hillary when Trump was talking and she’d have this smug "I’ll just let him dig his own grave" grin on her face.
> 
> We can just hope things will be different this time as the clear greater evil has been time tested and they continue to pile on more evil in case you forgot.



Makes me think of the Jon Lovitz line in the SNL Bush-Dukakis debate in 1988: “I can’t believe I’m losing to this guy!” It was written by Al Franken. 

The problem now is that so many more Ds have to vote to overcome R gerrymandering and voter suppression.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Just a hair over two months out, and while I’m not overly optimistic for democrats, there are always exceptions to “the party in power shits the bed in the midterms”. Still looking likely that republicans take the house, but Biden has been on a streak of victories. Republicans have a good thing to run on with inflation, but can’t let go of the big lie, are defending Trump without knowing all the facts, and are now openly calling for having law enforcement shot on sight. The Supreme Court has overturned Roe v Wade. We still have January 6 hearings to come, and poll after poll show democrats closing the enthusiasm gap.

I really hope democratic enthusiasm remains strong, terrible candidates in swing states cost them the senate, and there is a chance democrats can keep the house. It’s a long shot, but even with the senate, democrats can prevent a complete shitshow in congress.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> The Supreme Court has overturned Roe v Wade. We still have January 6 hearings to come, and poll after poll show democrats closing the enthusiasm gap.




The Dems were certainly gaining momentum.  Until yesterday.

The student loan forgiveness may throw a huge wrench in that.  People who couldn't go to college because of costs and those who paid off their loans are not going to be happy about this.  Nor are many tax payers who will have to pick up the tab.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> The Dems were certainly gaining momentum.  Until yesterday.
> 
> The student loan forgiveness may throw a huge wrench in that.  People who couldn't go to college because of costs and those who paid off their loans are not going to be happy about this.  Nor are many tax payers who will have to pick up the tab.



Time will tell but I don't think this puts a dent into it, if anything it will energize younger voters who are needed to turnout. There's some faux outrage from conservatives but by and large most people support this initiative and let's be honest, Biden didn't really do a lot by only shaving off $10,000.









						Most Americans support student loan forgiveness, poll finds
					

Story at a glance A recent national poll conducted by progressive think tank Data for Progress found 60 percent of 1,425 respondents agreed the federal government should eliminate all or some stude…




					thehill.com
				




I'll say this though, nothing outrages the Republican party more than giving the working class a break. Billions in subsidies and breaks for filthy rich corporations are commonplace but relieve crippling debt from those making under 6 figures and it's like armageddon to them.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> The Dems were certainly gaining momentum.  Until yesterday.
> 
> The student loan forgiveness may throw a huge wrench in that.  People who couldn't go to college because of costs and those who paid off their loans are not going to be happy about this.  Nor are many tax payers who will have to pick up the tab.




I said months ago he should have done it early on, if at all, because now it seems like blatant pandering to a demographic Democrats are losing and they aren’t exactly the most in need.  It’s like if there was a mass exodus caravan and the government starts filling up gas tanks for free while doing nothing for the majority doing the journey by foot.

This isn’t even a solution.  It does nothing about price controls in a system where the government guarantees a blank check for whatever unquestioned figure higher education pulls out of its ass and then sends you the bill.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> The Dems were certainly gaining momentum.  Until yesterday.
> 
> The student loan forgiveness may throw a huge wrench in that.  People who couldn't go to college because of costs and those who paid off their loans are not going to be happy about this.  Nor are many tax payers who will have to pick up the tab.




Eh, I don’t see that being a big deal when it’s said and done, and democrats have a huge clap back to that, thanks to the republicans never-ending catering to the wealthy and the White House pointing out the millions of dollars congressional republicans have taken in PPP loan forgiveness.

Also, glad to see “sleepy Joe” fired up and ripping into the MAGA cult. I think he’s going to be far more effective at drumming up democrat support than people may think, and if Obama can join a few candidates with Biden in crucial races, I think that will help as well. And even though Trump isn’t on the ballot, MAGA is as strong of a driver of democrat turnout as it is for republicans.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> thanks to the republicans never-ending catering to the wealthy and the White House pointing out the millions of dollars congressional republicans have taken in PPP loan forgiveness.



That needs to be stressed over and over and over again in punchy campaign ads.


----------



## GermanSuplex

citynaps said:


> That needs to be stressed over and over and over again in punchy campaign ads.




Absolutely. The real congress scum don’t go on real news outlets, but I seriously want to hear some of the GOP members of congress answer one simple question;  “What is the difference between your loan of 180k, 1 million, 2 million dollars being forgiven and someone with college debt having a 10k or 20k loan forgiven?”

I think republicans are really shooting them selves in the foot here, on a variety issues at once, while President Biden racks up wins. When MTG accuses Biden of “buying votes”, why don’t they ask her if her vote was swayed when she got nearly 200k in relief.

Seriously, fuck these hypocrites, it’s hard to stomach at this point.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> Absolutely. The real congress scum don’t go on real news outlets, but I seriously want to hear some of the GOP members of congress answer one simple question;  “What is the difference between your loan of 180k, 1 million, 2 million dollars being forgiven and someone with college debt having a 10k or 20k loan forgiven?”




Their answer should be the same as mine.

Congress passed the PPP loan program.  Congress did not pass Biden's handout.  According to the Constitution, Congress controls the money, not the President.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Their answer should be the same as mine.
> 
> Congress passed the PPP loan program.  Congress did not pass Biden's handout.  According to the Constitution, Congress controls the money, not the President.



Funny that it's only a "handout" when the working class that gets the break. The only people this is outraging are stuffy ass Republicans who couldn't give a rats ass about the working class people in this country. Give an oil company a subsidy for 50 times this much while their profits are off the charts and not a word is said, but let a poor person buy a hotdog with food stamps and Republicans suddenly become rabid dogs about it.

Seriously, what have those making less than $125K ever done to you guys that's SO bad? These people actually deserve the break, not the ire of career congressmen who have been sucking millions off the tit of huge corporate donations (or handouts as you like to call it) while swatting those just trying to get by in a bad economy.


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> Their answer should be the same as mine.
> 
> Congress passed the PPP loan program.  Congress did not pass Biden's handout.  According to the Constitution, Congress controls the money, not the President.



Your statement is an oversimplification. Presidents can indeed spend money through executive orders, mostly by reallocating funds, which both Democrats and Republicans chief executives have done. (See https://factcheck.afp.com/us-presidents-can-spend-tax-dollars-executive-orders). In fact, Trump did so several times during his administration, including one instance where he issued an order that _deferred student loan payments and interest_.

Do you actually believe the electorate cares about the differences between student loan forgiveness through executive order vs. what was a built-in expectation in the Paycheck Protection Program? And both pale compared to the massive handouts to corporations and ultra-wealthy individuals that were included in Trump's 2017 tax cuts.


----------



## Huntn

GermanSuplex said:


> Absolutely. The real congress scum don’t go on real news outlets, but I seriously want to hear some of the GOP members of congress answer one simple question;  “What is the difference between your loan of 180k, 1 million, 2 million dollars being forgiven and someone with college debt having a 10k or 20k loan forgiven?”
> 
> I think republicans are really shooting them selves in the foot here, on a variety issues at once, while President Biden racks up wins. When MTG accuses Biden of “buying votes”, why don’t they ask her if her vote was swayed when she got nearly 200k in relief.
> 
> Seriously, fuck these hypocrites, it’s hard to stomach at this point.



I tend to view these assholes in Congress as the problem, but really get discouraged when I think about  the number of people who created todays GOP, it’s base. When you realize how many people back home voted these unqualified, dipshits in to act in a most un-democratic manner, ie to trash the Federal Government and our laws for their right wing fantasies,  it is truly discouraging.


----------



## DT

Eric said:


> Seriously, what have those making less than $125K ever done to you guys that's SO bad? These people actually deserve the break, not the ire of career congressmen who have been sucking millions off the tit of huge corporate donations (or handouts as you like to call it) while swatting those just trying to get by in a bad economy.




It's interesting , I've paid a significant amount of tax, I've worked hard to build revenue opportunities and I'm very protective of my business - however, I don't even blink, in fact, I applaud people getting help, improving the country by way of making it's people better, less in debt, more able to seek education, healthier, I'll pay more tax if that helps.

I'll swear there are people if you said, "You can have a 75" TV, or instead a 65" and this person can have healthcare assistance " they tell you to go fuck yourself, they're not watching college football on a small TV ...


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> Their answer should be the same as mine.
> 
> Congress passed the PPP loan program.  Congress did not pass Biden's handout.  According to the Constitution, Congress controls the money, not the President.



The term you used “handout”and how you used it says it all. The issue is a dysfunctional Congress, a dysfunctional right wing population residing in their personal fantasyland.


----------



## Citysnaps

I often think about why one of the two major political parties in the United States is so deathly afraid of having a well-educated populace. 

It's not rocket science understanding why that's the case.


----------



## Huntn

Citysnaps said:


> I often think about why one of the two major political parties in the United States is so deathly afraid of having a well-educated populace.
> 
> It's not rocket science understanding why that's the case.



Control the sheep, herd the sheep, sheer the sheep, ironically it’s the sheep with poor judgement who elected the fleecers. All you have to do to get sheep support is to appeal to one of their selfish wedge issue, then with glee, they’ll let the fleecer trash the place.


----------



## Eric

DT said:


> It's interesting , I've paid a significant amount of tax, I've worked hard to build revenue opportunities and I'm very protective of my business - however, I don't even blink, in fact, I applaud people getting help, improving the country by way of making it's people better, less in debt, more able to seek education, healthier, I'll pay more tax if that helps.
> 
> I'll swear there are people if you said, "You can have a 75" TV, or instead a 65" and this person can have healthcare assistance " they tell you to go fuck yourself, they're not watching college football on a small TV ...




It's all about privilege, I mean "poor" people with refrigerators? WTF kind of bullshit is that.







We need a hard hitting news team to get to the bottom of this.






Meanwhile, $441 billion in Government handouts for oil companies who made $17.9 billion in profits in 2021.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> Funny that it's only a "handout" when the working class that gets the break. The only people this is outraging are stuffy ass Republicans who couldn't give a rats ass about the working class people in this country. Give an oil company a subsidy for 50 times this much while their profits are off the charts and not a word is said, but let a poor person buy a hotdog with food stamps and Republicans suddenly become rabid dogs about it.
> 
> Seriously, what have those making less than $125K ever done to you guys that's SO bad? These people actually deserve the break, not the ire of career congressmen who have been sucking millions off the tit of huge corporate donations (or handouts as you like to call it) while swatting those just trying to get by in a bad economy.




So you are willing to set aside the idea that he did not have the authority to do what he did?  Even Pelosi said he didn't last year.  Here is it right from her own mouth:


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> So you are willing to set aside the idea that he did not have the authority to do what he did?  Even Pelosi said he didn't last year.  Here is it right from her own mouth:



"The president was not authorized to make such a decision without congressional approval!"
~ The opposing party (regardless of who is in office)

In a nutshell, unless you'll conceded that every decision any president has made of this nature was within their "authority" I submit that this is strictly partisan pandering. Fox News is in full outrage mode and the rest of the world is pointing and laughing at them, FYI there is more than one source for news that isn't in a partisan bubble.

As for this taking front and center stage there are two things to consider. 1) More people are for it than against it in every major poll. 2) On any news organization that isn't Fox News it barely cracked the top stories this week.

It would be fantastic to see the Republican party actually demonize those making more than check to check wages with crippling debt for a change. Try an executive making 300 times their employees salary while getting all the tax breaks, for example.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> Their answer should be the same as mine.
> 
> Congress passed the PPP loan program.  Congress did not pass Biden's handout.  According to the Constitution, Congress controls the money, not the President.




That’s a BS answer that reflects the hypocrisy of their outrage over the loan forgiveness. They aren’t arguing about procedural matters, they’re whining “It’s not fair!”. Ted Cruz is making fun of baristas with college debt. Etc.

That’s a politician answer that doesn’t answer the question of why it’s ok for them to have millions forgiven, but not a student to have 10k or 20k forgiven.

But if that’s the answer you’d give, then I’d ask “would you vote for a bill that forgives that amount of debt? And if not, why not? And if you’re against loan forgiveness, why did you accept it?”

I want a real answer, not a typical bullshit one.

It’s just like the GOP scum who
peddle the lie of a rigged election. How many of them resigned in protest or demanded recounts in races they won? How many GOP members of congress from Arizona or Georgia demanded recounts of their own totals?

This is more of the same.

*And to be clear, I haven’t heard a single Republican say “I think this is great for the hardworking men and women who are struggling with college debt, we just want to pass it in the traditional manner through congress. We’ll draft the bill and pass it and President Biden can sign it”.

All I’ve heard is “what about people who paid their debt” and “Why should some gender studies loser get a free 10k to buy their vote!? This is a handout and an attempt to buy votes!”

Not to mention, your answer brings up another problem - why are we letting congress vote on debt relief they themselves are entitled to? And why didn’t they put restrictions in place so that only people who needed the PPP forgiveness could receive it? I’m not happy with a congressman worth millions, who owns several shell companies, being able to vote on his own debt relief, but it happened.


----------



## ronntaylor

Herdfan said:


> Their answer should be the same as mine.
> 
> Congress passed the PPP loan program.  *Congress did not pass Biden's handout*.  According to the Constitution, *Congress controls the money, not the President*.



From Fox (where Cedric Richmond appeared, answering questions about the President's authority):



> Biden justified the move by invoking the 2003 HEROES Act. Passed in the wake of the September 11th terrorist attacks and at the height of the War on Terror, the law allows the Secretary of Education to waive or modify student financial aid programs in times of war or national emergency.




Two things will be interesting:

1. Will Republican Attorneys General try to thwart loan forgiveness in their states during this election season?

2. Who will come forward as having legal standing to challenge this, especially with past RW judiciary theory about this very issue?


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> In a nutshell, unless you'll conceded that every decision any president has made of this nature was within their "authority" I submit that this is strictly partisan pandering.




Maybe.  But if you remember the outrage from the left when Trump tried to use funds from other agencies to build the wall, then one side is no better than the other.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> That’s a BS answer that reflects the hypocrisy of their outrage over the loan forgiveness. They aren’t arguing about procedural matters, they’re whining “It’s not fair!”.




Well, it isn't fair to someone who scrimped and saved to pay off their own loans or wasn't able to afford college in the first place.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> Maybe.  But if you remember the outrage from the left when Trump tried to use funds from other agencies to build the wall, then one side is no better than the other.




Dude.

That was less about how that project was funded, vs. what is was, i.e., engineering nonsense, cost impossible, and just a racist dog whistle ...

A wall.

Hahahaha, JFC.


----------



## DT

I remember 3-4 years ago, talking to an acquaintance (a friend-of-very-good-friend) who's a structural engineer, has been involved in massive multi-billion dollar infrastructure projects (usually around bridges), and he was very clear, that the original budget was AT LEAST, 1/10th the real budget - and the maintenance support costs not even factored in (and he didn't even address the effectiveness of the design ...)


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Well, it isn't fair to someone who scrimped and saved to pay off their own loans or wasn't able to afford college in the first place.



Couldn't you just think of it as a corporate bailout, but ignore the fact that it's only for the working class instead?


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Maybe.  But if you remember the outrage from the left when Trump tried to use funds from other agencies to build the wall, then one side is no better than the other.




It wasn't just outrage from the left, first of all.  Trump's antics in that regard ended up costing him good with with a lot of military families and residents of flood plains along the way, as an unwanted side effect for other Republican pols to have to deal with from coast to coast.  

Second, Trump was told NO WAY by Congress like _*three times*_ before he tried his end run by shuffling funds from DoD and Army Corps of Engineers et al. to try to have it ihs way, which was clearly NOT the will of the people, else he'd have ended up with the extra money in the budget.    Also, he wouldn't even entertain suggestions for advancing border security in ways other than "the wall".

 So that whole stunt was essentially a grudge match he was launching between him and both chambers of Congress (and leaders in both parties, actually) over what he wanted and wasn't getting.

Whereas...  Biden is relying on established provisions allowing changes to regulations of the Education Department's Income-Contingent Repayment programs, already established (and previously used, as well).  Best way to explain that is look at this piece in Forbes which describes the background and authorizations, which go back to 1965.









						Biden Can Forgive Student Loans By Issuing New Regulations
					

Although the President cannot legally implement broad student loan forgiveness through an executive order, it may be possible to implement loan forgiveness by issuing new regulations in the Income-Contingent Repayment plan, remaking it into a new loan forgiveness program.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> Well, it isn't fair to someone who scrimped and saved to pay off their own loans or wasn't able to afford college in the first place.




That’s a valid argument, but again, it loops back to it “not being fair” to everyday working Americans that many of the people in congress whining about this the loudest are the same ones who had millions or hundreds of thousands of dollars forgiven. Money is money, loans are loans, and I want an answer to that hypocrisy.

I want to know why it’s ok for MTG to get 180,000 forgiven but not a college student to have 10k forgiven. A procedural argument doesn’t answer that hypocrisy, and it’s not even an argument they’re making.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Well, it isn't fair to someone who scrimped and saved to pay off their own loans or wasn't able to afford college in the first place.




Yeah.  Well I paid all of my student loans  back, and why not, since I agreed to do that when I took them out.  Does that mean I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth had it come my way? Hell no,

But I'd be happy to help pick up the tab for college students so overburdened now by debt they should never have had to sign up for just to get a decent college education.   Way too much marketing in this country, way too much hype on "good schools" and how to get into them,  way too much focus on future wealthy alumni and how to engage their parents today, way too much money on administration rather than instruction, too much fancy infrastructure and not enough outright financial assistance in the form of grants and stipends for books or room and board.

Bottom line, way way too much profiteering on the backs of the very future of the nation.  It's too late to make that never happen, but it's not too late to say 
​_sorry our bad we f'd up and you should not have to delay owning a car or house or getting married and starting a family just because a bunch of your profit-hungry elders saw gold in them thar hills when y'all were teens and starting to think what's after high school. _​​Yeah see we thought about how to turn y'all into money falling off trees for 20 years after you might graduate... or even if you didn't graduate.  It worked for awhile...  for us the elders,  in banking or college admin or marketing or construction or whatever.  We have f'g made out like bandits, truth be told. 

Now the bill comes due to the nation, and we whine over who should pay.   Ain't that the American way.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I remember Bill O’Reilly talking about how he painted houses and such to help pay for college, totally oblivious to the fact painting houses or waiting tables barely even keeps the lights on anymore, let alone allow you to pay for a college education.

It’s a total joke.


----------



## Citysnaps

I didn't need to get student loans because I worked for 8 years before earning my college degree. Am I upset some students have had their college loans partially forgiven?  Not in the slightest. Why?  Because I believe society and the US as a whole are far better off helping people that want to go to college do so, who otherwise would not be able to for a variety of reasons.


----------



## Joe

Oh, there’s Herdfan. Thought he was missing in action since he avoids the trump raid thread like the plague 

Also, why do conservatives all say the same things? Republicans all regurgitate the same talking points all across social media. It’s like they wait for Fox News to tell them how to think then they run to social media saying the same things


----------



## ronntaylor

Joe said:


> Oh, there’s Herdfan. Thought he was missing in action since he avoids the trump raid thread like the plague
> 
> Also, why do conservatives all say the same things? Republicans all regurgitate the same talking points all across social media. It’s like they wait for Fox News to tell them how to think then they run to social media saying the same things



They get those marching orders and start posting right away. Word for word. I call is Republithug Bingo! Anti-CRT nonsense. Book Burning BS. Now it's anti-loan forgiveness. At least when it comes to working people without a huge bank account. They can't answer why PPP is okay, but SLF is going to be paid by plumbers and such. If some of them actually talked with plumbers and other such workers they'd know that some of them went to trade school and can get debt relief if necessary.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> That’s a valid argument, but again, it loops back to it “not being fair” to everyday working Americans that many of the people in congress whining about this the loudest are the same ones who had millions or hundreds of thousands of dollars forgiven. Money is money, loans are loans, and I want an answer to that hypocrisy.
> 
> I want to know why it’s ok for MTG to get 180,000 forgiven but not a college student to have 10k forgiven. A procedural argument doesn’t answer that hypocrisy, and it’s not even an argument they’re making.




Because when those loans were taken out it was supposedly because the government had shut down some of those businesses and the borrowers knew if they did what was asked and spent the money on payroll and other qualified business expenses, the loans would be forgiven.  It was designed that way.  Not sure why they called them loans in the first place.


----------



## Herdfan

ronntaylor said:


> They get those marching orders and start posting right away. Word for word.




Or maybe I talk to people who are pissed about this.  I work around a lot of tradespeople so I get an idea of what working people think.  Maybe they get their ideas from Fox or some conservative SM accounts, but I really have no idea.  Just know it is a hot topic of conversation and they aren't happy.  If the Dems were trying to alienate whatever remaining voters they had among the working class, they did a great job.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> Or maybe I talk to people who are pissed about this.  I work around a lot of tradespeople so I get an idea of what working people think.  Maybe they get their ideas from Fox or some conservative SM accounts, but I really have no idea.  Just know it is a hot topic of conversation and they aren't happy.  If the Dems were trying to alienate whatever remaining voters they had among the working class, they did a great job.




Curious... Are those tradespeople just as outraged, and *hopefully far more pissed off*, when corporations and already wealthy executives/CEOs receive massive bailouts and tax breaks from the Government?


----------



## Citysnaps

More curiosity...I wonder how many conservatives who view themselves as Christians are on-board with Deuteronomy 15:1-23, particularly verse 7?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> Because when those loans were taken out it was supposedly because the government had shut down some of those businesses and the borrowers knew if they did what was asked and spent the money on payroll and other qualified business expenses, the loans would be forgiven.  It was designed that way.  Not sure why they called them loans in the first place.




No different than republicans making fun of college grads for going into fields they don't like. What about personal accountability?
"If you can't plan for unforeseen circumstances, maybe you shouldn't be running a business."

Those aren't my sentiments, but its a common refrain from conservatives when _other_ people are helped out.

I'd also be curious to know exactly what businesses these folks in congress who got the loans had that were shut down, or if it was just more clever accounting, like they use to get out of paying the taxes they owe... if they owe any at all in the first place. We've made it pretty easy for them to skip out, either outright or on paper.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Or maybe I talk to people who are pissed about this.  I work around a lot of tradespeople so I get an idea of what working people think.  Maybe they get their ideas from Fox or some conservative SM accounts, but I really have no idea.  Just know it is a hot topic of conversation and they aren't happy.  If the Dems were trying to alienate whatever remaining voters they had among the working class, they did a great job.



I find it hard to get this argument, the outrage is so manufactured to the point of being laughable.

We all pay our dues for experience in a related field one way or the other. You can work your way up the ranks by making minimum wage and eventually gaining experience and climbing the ladder, or you can go to college and get a degree which puts you ahead of the pack, earning a better salary right out of the gate, though still nowhere what's needed to pay off all that debt.

We all choose our own path, if you chose to go to college and had to take out tens of thousands to do it, you are also paying your dues. Shit, even the Obama's were paying off student debt at the time he was running for president. It's expensive and it's real, people want to get an education to succeed.

As for the partisan aspect of this (on man is it partisan) you NEVER see a Republican speak up for the working class other than to tout trickle down tax breaks in some for or another. Those making under 6 figures are a constant target for the right yet they're the backbone of this country.


----------



## Renzatic

Eric said:


> I find it hard to get this argument, the outrage is so manufactured to the point of being laughable.




This is the one thing I don't get either. Democrats and Republicans both spend billions and billions of our tax dollars bailing out and subsidizing large corporations, yet the moment the government does something that helps the average American, Republicans are out screaming about it like it's the end of the world. 

Then they turn around and scream about the government not doing anything for the average American.


----------



## Eric

Renzatic said:


> This is the one thing I don't get either. Democrats and Republicans both spend billions and billions of our tax dollars bailing out and subsidizing large corporations, yet the moment the government does something that helps the average American, Republicans are out screaming about it like it's the end of the world.
> 
> Then they turn around and scream about the government not doing anything for the average American.



You can watch children get slaughtered by assault weapons or billions get paid out in corporate welfare for already thriving corporations, but take $10K off of a working class citizen with crippling debt or watch a poor person get a hotdog at 7/11 with their food stamp card? Now you've gone too far.






Sorry but every action Republicans take show they completely despise real working class people.


----------



## Renzatic

With Trump, they've become a political party that openly hates at least half of their fellow countrymen, takes any initiative to helps others as a personal affront, whines constantly about being ignored, despite having an entire political party representing them in Washington, and threatens violence when they don't get their way on things.

Then they turn around and call themselves the only True Americans, patriots to the end, and anyone who doesn't like them can go get fuck. Say the same thing to them though, and they'll play the victim card, say they're being cancelled.

I will always maintain that we've gone far beyond the usual liberal vs. conservative rhetoric. Liberals are basically what conservatives were 20 years ago, and conservatives are now whiny, entitled brats screaming about everyone else being whiny, entitled brats, and they deserve everything because they work a job that requires them to wear boots.


----------



## Renzatic

On Facebook, I always hear about the liberal policies have lead us to crime ridden cities, poor states, and a deep deficit.

I always counter by asking them to name one republican run state that takes in less tax dollars than they send out. To name one republican run city that isn't just as crime ridden, or one republican congress/presidency that's lowered the deficit in the last 40 years.

There's never a response. As far as I can tell, conservative policies give us at least as much crime, at least as much debt, but somehow leaves us twice as poor and miserable.


----------



## DT

Good lord, I saw the house around the corner replaced their *DRUMP 2024* flag with an *I SUPPORT PRESIDENT DRUMP* flag ...

President?  And support what exactly?  Paying off hookers?  Being a traitor?  Fucking over all but the super wealthy?

Excellent, you keep supporting him while he's in prison.


----------



## Alli

Huntn said:


> Control the sheep, herd the sheep, sheer the sheep, ironically it’s the sheep with poor judgement who elected the fleecers. All you have to do to get sheep support is to appeal to one of their selfish wedge issue, then with glee, they’ll let the fleecer trash the place.



Reminds me of the old story of the axe. The trees let him in because he had a handle made of wood so they thought he was one of them.


Herdfan said:


> Well, it isn't fair to someone who scrimped and saved to pay off their own loans or wasn't able to afford college in the first place.



First of all - life is unfair. Is it fair that some people were born without the capacity to even get through college? Is it fair that the government bailed out the banking industry, the auto industry, and farming, but won’t bail out the people affected by those industries? Relieving some (a very tiny portion!) of student loan debt means that not only will we have a more educated populace (which I know frightens the hell out of the Right), but it means when the time comes for YOU or any of the rest of us to need a doctor, dentist, lawyer, teacher, etc. - there will be one because they were able to get help paying off school. 

Do you think that only smart rich people should be going to college in the first place?


----------



## Renzatic

Alli said:


> First of all - life is unfair.




I'll admit, if I had just paid off a large student loan, only to see a number of people being forgiven theirs now, it'd probably irk me a bit. Though not in the sense that someone's getting a nice windfall I missed out on, but that it didn't happen sooner so I could enjoy it too.

Some people get a break, and some people don't. It sucks for the people it doesn't happen for, but that doesn't mean they should resent those who were lucky enough to get their break, and demand everyone be just as miserable.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Citysnaps said:


> Curious... Are those tradespeople just as outraged, and *hopefully far more pissed off*, when corporations and already wealthy executives/CEOs receive massive bailouts and tax breaks from the Government?




To be fair, they probably are but their news media cuts their mike if they appear to be agreeing with the other side on anything.  Occasionally they'll let it slip, but in no way can it appear to be a majority consensus.  But also, I'm pretty certain part of the rise of the Tea Party and Trump was due to the bailouts of the banks and Wall St.   

But just when you think the lower classes of the left and right can agree on something publically apparently only the left and Democrats can be "elites".  The riches and associated power of those on the right don't qualify for that label.  And I guess nobody on the right has ever gone to college.


----------



## Joe

Renzatic said:


> On Facebook, I always hear about the liberal policies have lead us to crime ridden cities, poor states, and a deep deficit.
> 
> I always counter by asking them to name one republican run state that takes in less tax dollars than they send out. To name one republican run city that isn't just as crime ridden, or one republican congress/presidency that's lowered the deficit in the last 40 years.
> 
> There's never a response. As far as I can tell, conservative policies give us at least as much crime, at least as much debt, but somehow leaves us twice as poor and miserable.




They NEVER have sources.


----------



## Renzatic

Joe said:


> They NEVER have sources.




Do your own research. Think for yourself.

...that's the usual canned response I get when I ask for a source.


----------



## Joe

Dark Brandon called all the MAGAts Semi-Fascist and Republicans are losing their minds. The only thing he got wrong was the SEMI. They're full on fascist.


----------



## Herdfan

Citysnaps said:


> Curious... Are those tradespeople just as outraged, and *hopefully far more pissed off*, when corporations and already wealthy executives/CEOs receive massive bailouts and tax breaks from the Government?




Far more, no.  But they don't really like that either.


----------



## Herdfan

Renzatic said:


> On Facebook, I always hear about the liberal policies have lead us to crime ridden cities, poor states, and a deep deficit.




No need to go to FB.  Just look at @Eric's Black on Asian crime thread.  And I believe there is another bay area centric crime thread as well.  Liberal DA's are refusing to punish criminals so they commit a new crime as soon as they get out without bail.  I mean if liberal SF is willing to oust a liberal DA, there is a problem somewhere.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> No need to go to FB.  Just look at @Eric's Black on Asian crime thread.  And I believe there is another bay area centric crime thread as well.  Liberal DA's are refusing to punish criminals so they commit a new crime as soon as they get out without bail.  I mean if liberal SF is willing to oust a liberal DA, there is a problem somewhere.




Yeah, but that's San Francisco. They're more a fringe example.

The simple fact, though, is that there are no successful conservative counter examples to liberal policies. If red states were relatively prosperous and crime free, then they'd have something to base their accusations upon. But they don't. Of the 5 most crime ridden states in the country, 4 are solidly red. 4 of the 5 safest states, on the other hand, are all solidly blue.

Though the difference between the most crime ridden, and most crime free are fairly marginal. It's not like Tennessee is a conservative crime ridden hellhole where you'll get shot if you so much as blink wrong, while Vermont is a liberal paradise where nothing bad ever happens.  You have an x% higher chance of being a victim of a crime in the former, but it's mostly statistics.

Conservatives love to say that liberal states and cities are an example of their failed policies, but what alternatives are they offering? Their supposed tough on crime stances haven't produced better results. All they do is accuse everyone else of stinking while they themselves are wallowing in the shit pile.


----------



## Joe

9 of the 10 poorest states are RED states.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Renzatic said:


> Do your own research. Think for yourself.
> 
> ...that's the usual canned response I get when I ask for a source.




People who deflect with that usually have one source, Joe Rogan.  In fact they're pretty much quoting him with that deflection.


----------



## Renzatic

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> People who deflect with that usually have one source, Joe Rogan.  In fact they're pretty much quoting him with that deflection.




So that's where it came from, huh? 

I can't help but think it's funny that the dozens upon dozens upon dozens of people who all tell me to think for myself are all repeating the same single line from the same singular source.


----------



## GermanSuplex

And those people chastise blacks for tracing their cumulative issues on the days of slavery, reconstruction and Jim Crow.. and beyond. Yet they themselves blame their issues on their inability to prosper at the expense of others. Spice it up with some dog-whistling and then they wonder why they have a shrinking base.

The facade they used to reluctantly wear is long gone, and the people they once at least pretended to try to court are no welcome in the party.


----------



## Renzatic

GermanSuplex said:


> The facade they used to reluctantly wear is long gone, and the people they once at least pretended to try to court are no welcome in the party.




I'd say it's something of the opposite, at least for most of them. The crazy they used to court for easy votes has finally risen up and overwhelmed the party, and now all they can do is ride the wave and hold on for dear life in hopes of saving their careers.

They've seen what happens to any Republican who dared go against Trump. They don't want to suffer the same fate, so they'll do whatever they can to save their own asses.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Renzatic said:


> So that's where it came from, huh?
> 
> I can't help but think it's funny that the dozens upon dozens upon dozens of people who all tell me to think for myself are all repeating the same single line from the same singular source.




I've concluded that Trump supporters and Rogan supporters have a lot in common, and I'm not even talking political views.  There's one notable difference. Trump never admits he is wrong and Rogan will BUT the fact that Rogan will admit it makes him an even bigger respectable authority/expert to his supporters.  So he might be wrong 300 times a year but if he admits it 300 times of bookmarks it with "I'm a fucking moron" then his supporters won't question continuing to respect somebody who was wrong 300 times in the past year.


----------



## ronntaylor

Herdfan said:


> Or maybe I talk to people who are pissed about this.  I work around a lot of tradespeople so I get an idea of what working people think.  Maybe they get their ideas from Fox or some conservative SM accounts, but I really have no idea.  Just know it is a hot topic of conversation and they aren't happy.  If the Dems were trying to alienate whatever remaining voters they had among the working class, they did a great job.



Many with college degrees, including graduate degrees, are working people. That would include teachers. Many places require a master's. Many of those teachers are saddled with student loan debt and this relief will assist them. Imagine spending years getting a degree, a mandated degree and salaries don't match. Just did a quick search to refresh my memory and WV has the 2nd lowest average teacher salary. MS is the lowest (that's almost a given for lots of stats). Are the people you're talking to upset that people can write-off the interest on a 2nd home? That the super rich can write off private jets (and related costs like fuel and pilot salary)? Are they upset that PPP loans are truly giveaways with no requirement that businesses taking advantage of the giveaway have to have been negatively impacted?

I'm not going to trash a teacher struggling to make ends meet. Many have a weekend, and 2nd or 3rd jobs to help pay off a predatory loan in order to get certified as a teacher.

SLF is horrible when it's assisting those that have paid back far above the amount borrowed via a predatory loan. But lawmakers pass legislation (PPP) with very little oversight, and that puny oversight was trashed by the last administration, and benefitted the loudest voices against SLF. Companies that have record profits, that have millions if not billions in sales took advantage of The Pandemic relief. These same companies had their taxes greatly reduced and instead of increasing salaries bought back their own stock.

Anyone screaming their heads off about this is either ill-informed or doesn't give a shit about their fellow Americans struggling and needing a helping hand.


----------



## Herdfan

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> People who deflect with that usually have one source, Joe Rogan.  In fact they're pretty much quoting him with that deflection.




Have never listened to him.  

But it could actually work the other way around.  He has the pulse of what people are thinking and relays their opinions on his show and not the other way around.


----------



## Edd

Given our drastic teacher shortage, I’d be in favor of free education degrees for those that commit. Perhaps an obligation for 5-ish years working as a teacher after earning the degree.


----------



## Eric

Edd said:


> Given our drastic teacher shortage, I’d be in favor of free education degrees for those that commit. Perhaps an obligation for 5-ish years working as a teacher after earning the degree.



IMO we should be incentivizing them instead of treating them like fast food employees. Most carry a master's degree and are strapped with student while out shopping for school supplies with their own money, just to have Republicans berate anyone offering them some relief, it's beyond ridiculous. We should be fully funding our schools and paying teachers a real salary. Who can blame them for leaving such a shitty job while being treated so poorly.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> Have never listened to him.
> 
> But it could actually work the other way around.  He has the pulse of what people are thinking and relays their opinions on his show and not the other way around.





You could say the same thing about Trump or even progressives, but sharing an opinion with somebody you consider above you doesn't by default turn it into fact.

Unfortunately doing your own research can yield completely contradictory results and people are going to gravitate to whichever fits their beliefs and narratives and elevate the credentials of anybody who is slightly more connected or knowledgable than them.  I also think there is a bit of self-interest aggrandizing from those expressing views outside the accepted establishment and an audience that elevates them because of it.  In the case of Joe Rogan, you could have 100 "experts" sharing an opinion or knowledge on the news, but Joe's listeners will respect the opinion of the one "expert" he has on his show that doesn't share that opinion.  In that regard it's very Fox News including Joe's version of "I'm just asking questions."


----------



## Herdfan

Edd said:


> Given our drastic teacher shortage, I’d be in favor of free education degrees for those that commit. Perhaps an obligation for 5-ish years working as a teacher after earning the degree.




Or pay them what they are worth to begin with.

But I'm not sure there is enough money to get me to put up with 6 year old boys all day.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> Or pay them what they are worth to begin with.
> 
> But I'm not sure there is enough money to get me to put up with 6 year old boys all day.




That was probably more manageable until a decade or two ago when you had to start dealing with parents who are less mature and more self-absorbed than a 6 year old.  And I'm not just talking MAGA conspiracists.  Throw in the other end of the spectrum as well, "I started my child on college prep the instant they exited the womb.  You are an ignorant nobody and will not derail their path to greatness!"


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> But I'm not sure there is enough money to get me to put up with 6 year old boys all day.




I'd do it, if I could use them for yard work.


----------



## Alli

Renzatic said:


> I'll admit, if I had just paid off a large student loan, only to see a number of people being forgiven theirs now, it'd probably irk me a bit. Though not in the sense that someone's getting a nice windfall I missed out on, but that it didn't happen sooner so I could enjoy it too.
> 
> Some people get a break, and some people don't. It sucks for the people it doesn't happen for, but that doesn't mean they should resent those who were lucky enough to get their break, and demand everyone be just as miserable.



My son just paid off his student loan last month. He said it would have been nice if this had happened sooner, but he’s not begrudging those who got it.


----------



## ronntaylor

Alli said:


> My son just paid off his student loan last month. He said it would have been nice if this had happened sooner, but he’s not begrudging those who got it.



I thought I read on Twitter that recently paid off students loans can be partially refunded via SDF? It may be worth it for your son to ask to see if he has $$ coming back.


----------



## Alli

ronntaylor said:


> I thought I read on Twitter that recently paid off students loans can be partially refunded via SDF? It may be worth it for your son to ask to see if he has $$ coming back.



I think he’s just happy to have it behind him.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Alli said:


> I think he’s just happy to have it behind him.





Does he plan to continue to serve Ted Cruz coffee?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Palin lost to a dem. She does have another chance this November, and we’ll see she continues leaning into MAGA or if she learned anything. Doubtful.









						Democrat Peltola beats Palin in Alaska special election upset
					

The former governor's comeback attempt has fallen short.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> Palin lost to a dem. She does have another chance this November, and we’ll see she continues leaning into MAGA or if she learned anything. Doubtful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Democrat Peltola beats Palin in Alaska special election upset
> 
> 
> The former governor's comeback attempt has fallen short.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com




I like how in her concession speech she said Alaskans know she’d never retreat.…unless somebody wants to count the time she left the governorship to become a reality show clown and a talking bobble head.  At least with that statement she certified that she’s a card carrying member of the current Republican cult.  No history exists prior to whatever just came out of their mouth.


----------



## Joe

Thoughts and prayers, Sarah!


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> Palin lost to a dem. She does have another chance this November, and we’ll see she continues leaning into MAGA or if she learned anything. Doubtful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Democrat Peltola beats Palin in Alaska special election upset
> 
> 
> The former governor's comeback attempt has fallen short.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com




Palin will go down in history as the one who made nutjobbery respectable (to a certain group of people). A real pioneer. 

MTG and others should set aside a moment of silence today while bowing towards Alaska.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Citysnaps said:


> Palin will go down in history as the one who made nutjobbery respectable (to a certain group of people). A real pioneer.
> 
> MTG and others should set aside a moment of silence today while bowing towards Alaska.




Many credit her with being the architect of lying as frequently, blatantly and outlandishly as possible and peppering it with patriotic slogans and trigger terms. She might have also been the one who made it acceptable to say shooting people is the only way to fight for something.

Also a big preacher of family values despite a failed marriage and pregnant teen daughter. I don’t judge her for either, but according to her own rhetoric she should be disgusted with herself.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Also a big preacher of family values despite a failed marriage and pregnant teen daughter. I don’t judge her for either, but according to her own rhetoric she should be disgusted with herself.




Heh, this is so true. I couldn’t help but chuckle at that last part…dead on the money.


----------



## Alli

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Does he plan to continue to serve Ted Cruz coffee?



Not really sure what you mean by that, but he makes too much money to be considered for loan forgiveness anyway.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Does this guy have a chance at defeating Stefanik? Would be great if she lost her general election given the events surrounding Liz Cheney.



			https://twitter.com/castellimatt?s=21&t=t416WzFTDVKpG4xrD1VKPQ


----------



## ronntaylor

GermanSuplex said:


> Does this guy have a chance at defeating Stefanik? Would be great if she lost her general election given the events surrounding Liz Cheney.
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/castellimatt?s=21&t=t416WzFTDVKpG4xrD1VKPQ



Probably not in that district. The deplorables love Mango. He'd probably need to latch on to some right-of-center issue to appeal to some.


----------



## Joe

Alli said:


> Not really sure what you mean by that, but he makes too much money to be considered for loan forgiveness anyway.




Ted Cruz called people wasting time in college "slacker baristas" - I think that's what he meant.


----------



## Alli

Joe said:


> Ted Cruz called people wasting time in college "slacker baristas" - I think that's what he meant.


----------



## Herdfan

Just curious why no one here has come to say how wonderful Biden's speech Thursday evening was?


----------



## Edd

Herdfan said:


> Just curious why no one here has come to say how wonderful Biden's speech Thursday evening was?



I loved it, thanks for asking.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> Just curious why no one here has come to say how wonderful Biden's speech Thursday evening was?




It was quite awesome. Very clear and concise. The pushback from the right is hilarious and won’t stick. They’re mad amongst themselves, much the same way racists get mad when you call them racists.

I watched some of Trump’s speech in Wilkes Barre… more proof of Biden being absolutely correct.


----------



## ronntaylor

Herdfan said:


> Just curious why no one here has come to say how wonderful Biden's speech Thursday evening was?



We're too busy laughing at all the whining and crying from MAGAts. Posted several memes his speech spawned elsewhere as well. Thanks for asking!!


----------



## Herdfan

I just found it funny that the WH was immediately walking back what he said.

I see it somewhat akin to Granny Box Wine's deplorables comment.  As @GermanSuplex noted, it fired up the right so not sure it was a good thing.

As for meme's, this was my favorite:


----------



## Joe

Republicans have spent the last couple of years saying “fuck Joe Biden” and driving around with those same flags all over their vehicles. 

Now they’re crying that Biden is mean to them. 

Fuck your feelings.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Just curious why no one here has come to say how wonderful Biden's speech Thursday evening was?



I’ve been too busy on Twitter and forgot completely to come here to talk about it. I thought it was brilliant. He said what needed to be said, and his delivery was pitch perfect. So nice having a president who‘s an orator again.


----------



## Joe

Republicans don’t like when you match their energy. They do and say the most vile things then wanna cry when that same energy is returned.


----------



## ronntaylor

The "F- Your Feelings Crowd" = a bunch of crybabies. Biden's apology should have only been for using "semi" to describe the low-rent nazis. After 1/6 and anti-voter laws going to hyper-drive, all gloves must come off. For Biden and all Dems.

Biden Shouldn’t Apologize to Republicans​


			https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/04/opinion/biden-semifacism-apologize.html
		




> ...*Biden was simply calling a thing a thing.* In fact, I would prefer that he be even more pointed and not try so hard to dodge the charge that he’s casting the net too widely.


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> I just found it funny that the WH was immediately walking back what he said.
> 
> I see it somewhat akin to Granny Box Wine's deplorables comment.  As @GermanSuplex noted, it fired up the right so not sure it was a good thing.
> 
> As for meme's, this was my favorite:
> 
> View attachment 17321



Perhaps the "right" people were fired up because Biden's comments hit so close to home. What did he say about MAGA Republicans that wasn't accurate? He even took care to say that most people who identify as Republican don't fall into that category, but of course McCarthy et al whined that Biden insulted half the country.

As for the implication that Biden, who swore to uphold the Constitution and actually abides by that vow, shouldn't have spoken out for fear of alienating Republicans, I'd say it was his duty to call attention to what's happening from his bully pulpit. A party that only accepts the results of elections they win and threatens violence if they don't represents the greatest threat to the country since the Civil War. 

From Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address:

_“In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The government will not assail you. You can have no conflict, without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in Heaven to destroy the government, while I shall have the most solemn one to “preserve, protect and defend” it._


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> I see it somewhat akin to Granny Box Wine's deplorables comment.  As @GermanSuplex noted, it fired up the right so not sure it was a good thing.




It did fire up the right, but to anyone outside the cult, we’ve been hearing that stuff from the right and especially Trump for years now. There’s video of him saying the same things many times. The pushback to Biden’s speech is not unexpected - hit dogs yell.

No reasonable Republican or independent moderate is going to listen to what Joe Biden said and think it was out of line in comparison to anything Trump has said - which were worse and more often. Look at his speech in Wilkes Barre - more threats, more name-calling, more lies…

The people who attended that rally are the ones who are mad, and they’re always mad anyways.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> No reasonable Republican or independent moderate is going to listen to what Joe Biden said and think it was out of line in comparison to anything Trump has said -




No it wasn't.  But given that Biden pledged unity, this was a departure from that.  It will not bring any Republicans to his side.  And might turn off some independents, where his approval is a whopping 29%.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> No it wasn't.  But given that Biden pledged unity, this was a departure from that.  It will not bring any Republicans to his side.  And might turn off some independents, where his approval is a whopping 29%.




Well, we shall see. You’re right, but what should he do? Ignore the threats? It’s been almost two years since the 2020 elections and a good chunk of republicans are keeping the big lie alive. It has to be confronted.


----------



## Joe

The cult members are crying about “unity”. They hold Dems to higher standards than their own politicians. Trump and republican politicians can do and say whatever but Brandon needs to stick to what he pledged. 

Let’s be real. The people that are mad aren’t  voting for him anyway.


----------



## Eric

I am personally not a fan of this new tactic by Biden, I don't disagree with what he's saying about the radical MAGA Republicans but someone has to be the bigger person and not get into the gutter with the likes of Trump and his minions. 

At this point Democrats have the wind at their backs and staying above all of that appears to have been working well, not sure why he feels the need to push this.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Well, if he did nothing and dems lose, he’ll be accused of not being tough enough.

I hear him talk today in Wisconsin, he was pretty fired up. I’m glad to see him campaigning. He should, he’s got serious victories to tout and a lot is at stake.


----------



## Herdfan

Joe said:


> Let’s be real. The people that are mad aren’t  voting for him anyway.




I agree.  They aren't.

But what about those who voted for him last time because Trump was "icky" and not because they liked him.  Do you think that speech brought them more towards him or maybe pushed them away?


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> I am personally not a fan of this new tactic by Biden, I don't disagree with what he's saying about the radical MAGA Republicans but someone has to be the bigger person and not get into the gutter with the likes of Trump and his minions.
> 
> At this point Democrats have the wind at their backs and staying above all of that appears to have been working well, not sure why he feels the need to push this.




But he lumped everyone on the right as a radical MAGA Republican.  That simply is not the case anymore than everyone on the left is a SQUAD Dem.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> But he lumped everyone on the right as a radical MAGA Republican.  That simply is not the case anymore than everyone on the left is a SQUAD Dem.



While I think it may have came across that way, he was very specific about MAGA, not all. The point is we shouldn't have to differentiate any of it, I think it was in poor taste, I can't stand that Trump does stuff like that all the time and would like my candidate to be above it. In the end I don't think this will help Democrats and was unnecessary.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> As for meme's, this was my favorite...




Man. Cornholio has really gotten angry in his dotage, hasn't he?


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> But he lumped everyone on the right as a radical MAGA Republican.  That simply is not the case anymore than everyone on the left is a SQUAD Dem.




No, he made a clear distinction between the two.


----------



## Edd

Renzatic said:


> No, he made a clear distinction between the two.



And I'm sure Liz Cheney and many other firm right Republicans agree with him.  If we can't even talk about the problem, we're fucked.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> In the end I don't think this will help Democrats and was unnecessary.




Do you think it has the potential to hurt the Dems either by firing up the GOP or turning off right-leaning independents.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> Do you think it has the potential to hurt the Dems either by firing up the GOP or turning off right-leaning independents.




Everything has the potential for something. Do you think Trump’s rhetoric is inspiring another Jan. 6-like event? He (Biden) wagered his odds on a tougher approach. Democrats are criticized for not “fighting back” enough. The lies have festered for two years and Trump is out there everyday lying and misleading his followers. God only knows why they turn to a used car salesman for moral and political guidance, but they do.

I don’t know how you can handle these people with kid gloves any longer, they see Trump as a perpetual victim, never hold him accountable for anything and in the process give credit to all of his made-up grievances while he continues breaking and obstructing laws.

There are MAGA republicans winning based on the same meritless BS. Biden is largely seen by MAGA republicans as an “illegitimate president”, and he has the right to fight back. I’d say he’s tactful if anything.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> Do you think it has the potential to hurt the Dems either by firing up the GOP or turning off right-leaning independents.




Would you ever vote for Marjorie Taylor Greene or Matt Gaetz?


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Do you think it has the potential to hurt the Dems either by firing up the GOP or turning off right-leaning independents.



TBH I don't think it will necessarily hurt in the sense that they won't be offended because even those independents are aware of the damage inflicted by the MAGA-wing of the party, but I do think it could hurt with potential voters like me who just want to see our leaders leading and not pointing fingers. In the end I think people already know so there's no point in fanning the flames.


----------



## Joe

Eric said:


> While I think it may have came across that way, he was very specific about MAGA, not all. The point is we shouldn't have to differentiate any of it, I think it was in poor taste, I can't stand that Trump does stuff like that all the time and would like my candidate to be above it. In the end I don't think this will help Democrats and was unnecessary.




Nah, people are happy that Dems are finally fighting back and giving them a taste of their own medicine. People are tired of weak ass Dems letting Republicans bully them. 

You may not have liked what Dark Brandon said but it was nowhere near the bullshit that Trump spewed on a daily basis and Herdfan wasn’t here or on PRSI calling him out for it. In fact, he voted for him twice and would do it again if given the chance. 

You may like people walking all over you but some of us don’t. Sorry Michelle Obama, but when they go low I’m not going high.  I’m going to the pits of hell. 

I don’t play nice with MAGA Fascists. But you do you.


----------



## Joe




----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> *But he lumped everyone on the right as a radical MAGA Republican. *That simply is not the case anymore than everyone on the left is a SQUAD Dem.




No...

When Biden gave his speech denouncing trump's MAGA Republicans as extremists who threaten the foundations of the republic, he followed up with this:

_“Not every Republican — not even the majority of Republicans — are MAGA Republicans. Not every Republican embraces their extreme ideology. I know because I’ve been able to work with these mainstream Republicans.”_

I think it's pretty clear who Biden was targeting. Certainly not conservatives, people on the right,  or Republicans in general.


----------



## Joe




----------



## GermanSuplex

Semi-Antifa.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

"Cowardly" GOP candidates scrub abortion, Trump from campaign sites
					

"At this point, it’s too late to run away from who you are," a GOP strategist warns.




					www.salon.com
				




A couple things at play.   The Democrat party actively did what they could with money and votes to assure that the most insane Trump candidate won their primary.  Now that they've won the establishment Republican party has little interest in supporting these candidates.  Similarly, Trump only wants to keep his political war chest for himself.  Last I heard the only money he parted with towards other candidates was against Liz Cheney.  Money well spent I guess and clearly because of a vendetta, period.  So now you have these barely supported Trump clowns trying to dial back how insane they are.  It will be interesting to see if any of this matters in the final results.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> "Cowardly" GOP candidates scrub abortion, Trump from campaign sites
> 
> 
> "At this point, it’s too late to run away from who you are," a GOP strategist warns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.salon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A couple things at play.   The Democrat party actively did what they could with money and votes to assure that the most insane Trump candidate won their primary.  Now that they've won the establishment Republican party has little interest in supporting these candidates.  Similarly, Trump only wants to keep his political war chest for himself.  Last I heard the only money he parted with towards other candidates was against Liz Cheney.  Money well spent I guess and clearly because of a vendetta, period.  So now you have these barely supported Trump clowns trying to dial back how insane they are.  It will be interesting to see if any of this matters in the final results.




Interesting GOP and Dem points in the piece that you had cited:



> Ken Spain, a GOP strategist, believes it is "kind of silly at this stage" for Republican nominees to be scrubbing their websites of their own positions.
> 
> Spain told the Beast, "Unfortunately for all candidates, *the internet lives forever. At this point, it's too late to run away from who you are.*"
> 
> Tommy Garcia, a Democratic National Committee (DNC) spokesperson, believes it is disingenuous for Republicans to downplay their positions.
> 
> Garcia told the Beast, "MAGA Republicans have made their extreme positions clear — there is no going back just because they have all of a sudden realized that they are out of touch with voters. *Voters know exactly who these cowardly candidates are*."




The thing is (and flashing forward to after the upcoming midterms) actual voters may have known who the candidates were and what they stood for at a given time, or were perceived as standing for...  but pre-election POLL RESPONDENTS ?  Very possibly not so much, or at least maybe not to an extent the pollsters can capture as they home in on the horse race over the next five weeks.

So once again pollsters are anxious about whether they have sufficiently corrected methodology used the last couple times out, when they admit they botched polls in some races by under-representing final Republican turnout during the polling season.









						Pollsters fear they’re blowing it again in 2022
					

Democrats seem to be doing better than expected with voters. But if the polls are wrong, they could be disappointed in November — again.




					www.politico.com
				






> After 2016, pollsters said the problem was their samples included too few voters without college degrees. The polls were better for the 2018 midterms, though they were still too Democratic on balance. Then came 2020 — which was worse than 2016, and for which pollsters have yet to settle on a definitive explanation of what precisely went wrong. As a result, an easy fix has proven elusive. But pollsters have mostly agreed that, particularly in 2020, the surveys missed a chunk of Trump’s voters who refused to participate in polls.
> 
> The current 2022 polling is wildly favorable for Democrats. FiveThirtyEight’s “lite” prediction model, which is based solely on the latest polling data, says Democrats have a 79 percent chance to retain control of the Senate. That probability clashes with the expectations of both parties and most independent handicappers, who consider the battle for the chamber to be closer to a coin flip.




Pollsters also struggle with the fact that pro-Trump voters cannot reliably be lumped in with "Republican" responses:



> Don Levy, director of the Siena College Research Institute, said he is being “as careful as careful can be” to increase the share of Trump voters, both in their sampling (who gets called to participate) and weighting (making them count for more after the interviews are conducted in order to fix their underrepresentation). It’s not enough, Levy said, to just call more Republicans, since it’s a specific kind of Republican whom they are struggling to reach.
> 
> “It’s not partisan nonresponse. It’s hardened Trump-backer nonresponse,” said Levy. “A small majority of those are self-identified Republicans, but a significant number of them are self-identified independents or Democrats. You can’t correct that by saying, ‘Let’s weight up the Republicans.’ That doesn’t work.”




Personally I think the pollsters really have had their work cut out for them this year.  *This is a midterm after a redistricting, and after some special elections* --some of which were for redistricted seats!--  that may or may not have captured the mood ahead for the actual congressional elections. 

Throw in an ex-president far, far more visibly and politically active than our other former presidents have been in modern times.  Throw in the fact that that guy is also in legal jeopardy and that his fans buy into the idea that he's being persecuted... but that some of the candidates he has endorsed don't even mention him any more in their ads or speeches.

To tweak polling for results of primaries and special elections in those circumstances seems dicey, never mind the "special effects" due to Trump.   Also the pollsters still do struggle to capture more accurately the policy stances and likelihood of Republicans overall (and the pro-Trump subset) to show up at the voting booth, especially since Trump voters tend to refuse to participate in polls or just don't answer their phones, but possibly because in 2020 the party did not adopt any platform at all except to support Trump...  even though it was making inroads in the court system that favored long time GOP platform planks including anti-abortion measures.

Finally, in 2022 there are special one-off features of the overall political landscape that are hard to figure with respect to overriding influence on potential voters:  inflation, the Dobbs SCOTUS decision,  the uncertain net effect of DeSantis' relocation of immigrants, the whole Mar-a-Lago documents mess, and now a populous state smacked hard by a hurricane landing in an unusual area, with the residents welcoming a quickly provided federal disaster declaration, but its congressional delegation meanwhile voting lockstep against bumps to FEMA funding -- on grounds the rest of the particular funding bill was "wasteful"...

So much emphasis on Florida in that set of factors,  and yet one cannot discount effect on voters reading about all that as residents elsewhere.    I'd not be a politician for all the tea in China, but even less would I want to be a pollster in 2022.


----------



## GermanSuplex

There's also a good argument being made by republicans that democrats interfered in the elections by promoting far-right candidates. In Illinois, Pritzker spent a good deal of his campaign money (and a large part of that is his own money) to promote far-right candidate for governor Darren Bailey. The funny thing, they promoted him by speaking the truth. They would send out mailers with things like "Trump Conservative Darren Bailey is bad for Illinois. He's anti-abortion and supports the Trump agenda". Of course, that is going to enamor him to a majority of republicans, not put them off. And he won the primary by a wide margin, though it could be argued that he would have won anyways. His two biggest primary opponents were a carpetbagger and a fake conservative mayor of Aurora who couldn't answer a simple question.

So while democrats probably shouldn't have been spending money helping to nominate people they're staunchly against, republicans aren't leaning too hard into that valid argument because the majority of their voters support these candidates. Not to mention, doing so would be an admission that they also feel the nominees are unqualified.

Funnily enough, we had another candidate for statewide office who couldn't even admit if he voted for Trump. In deep-red states and wing districts, Trump is a non-factor and probably a huge boost to candidates, but he's a huge liability everywhere else, and republicans don't know how to reconcile the fact that their biggest asset is also their biggest liability.

Either way, its going to be an interesting next few months to see what happens and the fallout.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> Funnily enough, we had another candidate for statewide office who couldn't even admit if he voted for Trump. In deep-red states and wing districts, Trump is a non-factor and probably a huge boost to candidates, but he's a huge liability everywhere else, and republicans don't know how to reconcile the fact that their biggest asset is also their biggest liability.




Some R candidates have lately scrubbed their websites and stump speeches of references to either Trump or abortion...   maybe leaving only a picture of Trump at one of their own rallies somewhere for those who care to check that it's there. 

The combo of current and recent events plus a midterm being run right after redistricting has people and pollsters more off balance in some areas then they might otherwise be, even in a lingering "post-2016" environment that's both polarized and volatile.

For my money,  the Rs should also quit talking about "crime."  I mean it's not a good look when their party has a nominal head facing criminal investigations and followers going to the slam for breaking laws from trespass to assault and sedition.

I went to look up a YouTube music video the other night and encountered a Democratic National Commitee ad that was mocking a GOP congressional candidate for even mentioning the word "crime" in his own ads!​
The Rs want to defund the DoJ but then talk about ramping up law enforcement, this in lieu of helping figure out how to do stuff like intervene constructively in an under-regulated housing market (yeah, again).  That sector currently is selling whole developments of houses in bulk and at discounts to venture capitalists,  who figure that although the Fed's rate hikes have reduced consumer interest in new home mortgages at higher rates,  the housing rental market is very tight and is therefore definitely ripe to be milked.  With homelessness, comes increased crime.   Right, let's enforce laws against homeless people while we figure how to keep from losing money in the housing sector?!

Meanwhile the senior leadership of the GOP take the stony silence road and ignore all the seriously criming sort of elephants in their living room entirely. 

_Oh was there an insurrection?  That was just a protest, right?  Free speech!  Oh did some of us vote not to certify national electoral results in an election certified by all 50 states?  Well Biden was eventually sworn in, right?   Was there some evidence of extortion and incitement to violence in those two Trump impeachments, can't even remember, think it was all politics and so a witch hunt...  and who hasn't inflated the value of a property now and then to impress a few pals, really, just get over it...  and as for missing documents,  well stuff gets mislaid all the time, right, like everyone puts their car keys down in some stupid place once in awhile._​​I just hope registered Democrats don't make any assumptions about anything this year,  just make sure the reggie is in order and show up to vote in November.   Let the polls say whatever they say.  Let the newspapers do their horse race pieces.  Only votes count -- and the enforceable right to cast one.  Time to chip in to the ACLU again so they have plenty lawyers on hand on election day and thereafter...


----------



## GermanSuplex

lizkat said:


> For my money,  the Rs should also quit talking about "crime."  I mean it's not a good look when their party has a nominal head facing criminal investigations and followers going to the slam for breaking laws from trespass to assault and sedition.
> 
> I went to look up a YouTube music video the other night and encountered a Democratic National Commitee ad that was mocking a GOP congressional candidate for even mentioning the word "crime" in his own ads!​




Crime is still mentioned by Bailey here in Illinois, but that’s only because it’s home to Chicago, currently in a race for SanFran as the favorite punching bag of republicans. The problems for Bailey, of course are that crime isn’t polling high on the list of concerns for voters in Illinois (Inflations/Economy, democracy and abortion rights all poll higher), it’s a blue state where dems only need Chicago and it’s suburbs to win, and Pritzker crushed it in his first term - four balanced budgets, paying down our backlog of bills, getting IL it’s first credit rating upgrade in years, legalized marijuana, enshrining abortion laws…

Bailey is going to lose badly, but his conundrum isn’t unique, it’s just a more extreme example.

What will worry me is if total nut jobs win statewide races. Herschel Walker is polling way higher than I would have imagined. I’m also interested in the PA Governor’s race… I’d like to see a nut like Mastriano lose by five points (ideally 70 or 80 points), but if it’s within a percentage point or two, that’s going to worry me.


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> Some R candidates have lately scrubbed their websites and stump speeches of references to either Trump or abortion...   maybe leaving only a picture of Trump at one of their own rallies somewhere for those who care to check that it's there.




But really how is that any different than Dems running away from Biden?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> But really how is that any different than Dems running away from Biden?




What democratic candidate is “running away” from Biden?


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> What democratic candidate is “running away” from Biden?












						Swing-state Democrats keep their distance from President Biden
					

Tim Ryan will attend President Joe Biden’s CHIPS Act victory lap in Ohio on Friday, but not in his role as a Senate hopeful.




					abcnews.go.com
				












						Analysis: As Biden kicks off U.S. tour, some Democratic candidates want to keep their distance
					

They worry that campaigning with Biden will hurt them in the elections, according to more than a dozen interviews with senior Democrats and local campaign officials.




					www.reuters.com
				






			https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2022-08-26/democrats-run-on-bidens-achievements-and-away-from-biden
		




			https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/08/21/biden-turns-toward-midterms-he-may-not-be-top-surrogate/
		










						Democrats show reluctance to campaign with Biden
					

Some Democrats running in competitive reelection races in November are still reluctant to attach themselves to President Biden, even as he and the White House have been buoyed by a few weeks of goo…




					thehill.com
				












						Democratic candidates are hesitant to campaign with Biden despite recent win streak
					

Democrats in competitive races are tiptoeing around President Joe Biden's official visits, making case-by-case decisions about whether to appear alongside him.




					www.nbcnews.com
				












						Democratic candidates are hesitant to campaign with Biden despite recent win streak
					

President Joe Biden’s recent political revitalization hasn’t stopped some Democrats from treating him like an in-law: always welcome but seldom wanted.




					www.yahoo.com
				




Let me know when you have read all these and I'll post some more.  And please note, not a single Fox, Breitbart, NewsMax or OAN link.


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> For my money,  the Rs should also quit talking about "crime."  I mean it's not a good look when their party has a nominal head facing criminal investigations and followers going to the slam for breaking laws from trespass to assault and sedition.
> 
> ​




But that "crime" isn't affecting people's daily lives.  Being afraid to go out of your house or to the mall or dinner is what is on people's minds.  R's win over D's every time on that one.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> But really how is that any different than Dems running away from Biden?




Some of the Republican candidates now running away from  Trump were formerly playing up their support of Trump, his support for them, or both.  Trump's luck in courts lately has not been great and some of the possible charges or outcomes are unflattering, and some of Trump's public reactions have not done him any favors either, even among nominal followers.  So now some R candidates    just want to talk about crime, inflation and depending on state and local politics, also immigration. 

Even Rs in "safe districts"  need to draw in indie votes (or conservative Dems) to offset typically lower turnout across the board in midterms.   There is another and more variable reason to leave Trump out of stump speeches in certain districts or even state wide races:   some candidates have had ad buys pulled by Republican national committee(s) and as a result may have hoped to draw in some indie donor money.  Can't count on that necessarily if going around talking up loyalty to Donald Trump.


In the case of Biden, the Dem candidates in swing districts are most likely to put daylight between themselves and Biden because 

1) midterms are like that for the candidates of the party currently in the White House, i.e. the midterm votes typically reduce congressional strength of that party, so in trying to deter that, the candidates of that party may home in on state or regional issues rather than those associated to the WH agenda

2) right-leaning voters in the swing districts in 2022 do point the finger at Biden over inflation (also a typical voter move regardless of party when there is inflation).


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> But that "crime" isn't affecting people's daily lives.  Being afraid to go out of your house or to the mall or dinner is what is on people's minds.  R's win over D's every time on that one.




The crime and corruption of Donald Trump are such as can permanently affect every living soul in America and all their descendants.  This guy fancies himself a president for life, does not believe the rule of law applies to him and has persuaded the entire Republican party that rules don't matter either, so long as the GOP are the ones not-criming per their own determinations.

_Everyone_ should be talking about the transgressions and the fricken teflon (so far) of  a former president who attempted at length and with fervor to prevent the peaceful transfer of power by forestalling and then actually interfering with the related constitutionally mandated processes.

I'll never understand why the guy --the Chief Inciter!-- wasn't tossed in the pokey right after the insurrection.   He was transfixed by the incursion, refused to intercede in the violence for hours on end, took the same reluctant, dour "they're making me make this video" approach to disavowing violence as he did when he first commented on the Charlottesville incident.  But this wasn't just an exhibition of preference for white supremacists.  This was a guy who had been thrilled that his followers had charged the Capitol and tried to prevent the accession of a duly elected successor.

He's a high-maintenance naked emperor at best, a criminal and a traitor at worst and was never fit to be a US President.  Just by the Republicans so long tolerating his example of narcissistic and authoritarian leadership, they have helped spawn a collection of mini-Trumps waiting in the wings for the old man to kick off, apparently hoping that one of them is both savvier at legislative politics and as apparently charismatic as Trump himself has been viewed by his own followers.  

There isn't anyone more a threat to democracy on this planet past Trump, or China's Xi.  I'd include Putin but he has made mistakes that will cost his country decades or longer to recover equivalent power, and he wasn't even starting from parity.  The rest of this world's tinpot dictators are worrisome but you could ask democratic leaders around the world if they breathe easier with Trump not in the White House and get a fervent yes in response.  It's not just the criming, it's the impulsivity and the self-obsession.

If we can't put Trump in the rear view, preferably with a little jail time to make a point, and send his wannabe replacements to the back benches for fifty years,  the USA has just slid too far down the way towards entertaining ourseves to death,  by treating it all as just some kind of reality show.


----------



## ronntaylor

Talk about an October Surprise. I wonder if this (and the debates) will give Warnock some breathing room. Although GQP voters don't care about hypocrisy and incompetence and most will still vote for Walker.


----------



## Alli

An interesting side note on crime is that the highest percentages of crime (particularly gun violence) is in southern (Red) states. I think Alabama was like at number 3.


----------



## lizkat

ronntaylor said:


> Talk about an October Surprise. I wonder if this (and the debates) will give Warnock some breathing room. Although GQP voters don't care about hypocrisy and incompetence and most will still vote for Walker.
> 
> View attachment 18176




That guy has put himself through some changes since his father first announced his run for office.


----------



## ronntaylor

Herschel should probably sit down for two or three days



​Although I'm sure Oz wants him to keep at it









						Dr. Oz Conducted Experiments That Killed 329 Dogs, 31 Pigs: Report
					

Columbia University reportedly paid a $2,000 fine to settle charges under the Animal Welfare Act connected to Oz’s research.



					www.thedailybeast.com
				






> [ ... ] as whistleblower and veterinarian Catherine Dell’Orto told a Philadelphia outlet last month, “When your name is on the experiment, and the way the experiment is designed inflicts such cruelty to these animals, by design, there’s a problem.


----------



## ronntaylor

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1577118402476318721/


----------



## GermanSuplex

ronntaylor said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1577118402476318721/




It’s been said before, but it must be said again… it was only 18 years ago when this was enough to tank your campaign…

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1577118888361611264/


----------



## lizkat

So the midterms are practically upon us, and the Rs are already cautioning that if they lose, it will only be due to their bogeyman special:  a nonexistent "lack of integrity" of our electoral processes.

 Meanwhile in the great state of Ohio, the Republicans have managed to create a situation where the midterms will be voted upon from within new congressional district mappings that have TWICE been declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of the state of Ohio.









						Ohio is about to hold elections for unconstitutional congressional and legislative districts. Here’s how it happened
					

This year, Ohio voters will elect candidates to Congress and the state legislature using redistricting maps that have twice been found unconstitutional by the Ohio Supreme Court.




					www.cleveland.com
				




As it turns out, that court, unlike in many other states, is limited on congressional redistricting questions to picking one or another of the proffered maps,  and may NOT impose a map drawn by a court-appointed special master.

So the majority-R panel drawn up to make districts fair under the 2020 census proposed some maps that not suprisingly favored Republicans.

Objections were taken to court, and twice the (majority Republican!) state supreme court said yeah these maps are unconstitutional, try something else.

 Deadlock situation... 

OK so finally some Republicans said ok let's take it up to the feds because national elections are about to occur and we don't have legal districts.   This move was made even though it's the state that manages most questions about elections.

The federal district court said look, get real, either pick one of these maps "just for 2022" or draw one up that can pass muster in your own state supreme court's opinion.  And they gave a deadline, after which they said they would in fact pick one of the "just for 2022" maps... because what else could they do except to ensure that voters in the state of Ohio would in fact even be able to exercise their right to vote for representation in the US House and US Senate.

The Republican majority on the maps panel of course declined to draw up another map --why should they?, since both of the previous options favored them--  and so when the deadline passed, the federal court panel (including two picks by Trump)  made good on its initial instruction and picked a map to use "just for 2022," noting that it was "the best of our bad options."

Slick, huh?   And this is BEFORE the vote, and BEFORE the Rs whine about fradulent voting in any cases where gerrymandering failed and they are actually looking at having to contest Dem wins...


----------



## Nycturne

GermanSuplex said:


> It’s been said before, but it must be said again… it was only 18 years ago when this was enough to tank your campaign…
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1577118888361611264/




I can’t forget. I was caucusing that year in the Democratic primary in WA. In  support of Dean.

We hadn’t gotten to the state level caucus yet when this happened.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Tim Ryan’s Alpha Maneuver - The Bulwark

It’s an interesting strategy. Trumpism voters want to vote for a strongman. Remind these voters that many of these candidates and representatives at some point got humiliated by Trump and then came crawling to him with their tail tucked beneath their legs. They probably won’t analyze it much beyond that, but they’d probably have zero respect for anybody who did that outside the political world. It’s like begging the guy who slept with your wife to be your best friend. Sad.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Nycturne said:


> I can’t forget. I was caucusing that year in the Democratic primary in WA. In  support of Dean.
> 
> We hadn’t gotten to the state level caucus yet when this happened.




Great story!

It's hard to look back at things and wonder why they turned out why they turned out. Dean was a perfectly suitable candidate. He was trying to save face after a loss in Iowa. To be fair, it was seen as more comedic than any true wrongdoing. But still... it was indicative of the level you had to perform at when you were running for higher office.

The days of owning up to gaffes or recovering are over. People just lean into things. Trump has turned it into an art form that other people are following.

Hell, Kerry's big thorn was his service. The right desperately wanted him to not be what he claimed. Funnily enough, they turned around and nominated McCain 4 years later, and in 2016 and beyond, _they themselves _worked to discredit McCain, not for any perceived political benefit, just in honor to Trump - who actually lied about his health to avoid the draft.

Conservative logic is something else. How we can go from "The Dean Scream" to a draft-dodging, lying, egomaniac who says more career-ending things on a daily basis than all others before him combined is quite the leap to take in just a couple of decades.


----------



## Nycturne

GermanSuplex said:


> It's hard to look back at things and wonder why they turned out why they turned out. Dean was a perfectly suitable candidate. He was trying to save face after a loss in Iowa. To be fair, it was seen as more comedic than any true wrongdoing. But still... it was indicative of the level you had to perform at when you were running for higher office.




I was wondering why the scream, which I totally remember was about trying to pump up the crowd after the early primary loss, was disqualifying even then. 

Anyhow while things change, some things stay the same. The rhetoric during caucusing was that “we” needed a moderate candidate that could pull the center away from Bush and that we should lean into Kerry.

Even in 2020 there was so much talk about trying to cater to the center. Despite the fact that it’s getting Dems to turn out that is the general issue with winning national elections.


----------



## Herdfan

Nycturne said:


> I was wondering why the scream, which I totally remember was about trying to pump up the crowd after the early primary loss, was disqualifying even then.




I never really understood that either.  He was as you said, just trying to pump up the crowd.



Nycturne said:


> Even in 2020 there was so much talk about trying to cater to the center. Despite the fact that it’s getting Dems to turn out that is the general issue with winning national elections.




You need the independents/moderates to win a national election.  Run right/left in the primaries and then return to the center in the general has been the strategy as long as I can remember.  Some people can pull it off, some can't.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Problem is, some people have gone from “Trump won, 2020 was a rigged and stolen election and Biden is an illegitimate president!” to “Nah, Biden is president, the election is over.”in a couple of weeks.

That is a shift more than one Republican has taken, and it’s a lot different than trying to be wishy-washy during the primaries and general. It’s a total 180 that exposes you as a liar, because you were either lying the last two years, or you’re lying now.

I don’t have much any negative towards Gabbard outside of politics beliefs, but I’m certainly not hoping she comes out of relative obscurity either.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

California resident here. At this point in history I would never vote for a Republican for governor and certainly not secretary of state, but I am open to voting for one when it comes to anything dealing with taxes or the budget. Our high taxes and cost of living are well known. The Democrat candidate statements kind of read like platitudes because, well, we’ve seen your history. There was nothing really insane said by the Republican candidates. One pointed out the massive unemployment insurance fraud during covid but that’s hardly just a CA problem or something the CA government encouraged. Of course being a Republican he didn’t also mention the massive covid related business fraud. Their budget and fraud hawkishness is always laser focused on those at the bottom.

CA officials absolutely refuse to reduce our insanely high gas tax. So they are sending out “inflation relief” checks based on basically the same prerequisites as the covid checks. Call it what they want but everybody’s mind is on the high gas prices. These checks will be going to people who don’t have cars, drive EVs, or don’t drive much. Sure, you can say it helps with the high cost of food but it’s not like people with long commutes don’t eat. Like our current sociopath federal reserve this is much too blunt of a tool.

We had a massive budget surplus this last year and because of that by law they gave some of it back to us. That’s nice and all, but Newsom ran on some kind of statewide medicare for all platform which he quickly and corruptly abandoned once in office. “We can’t afford it” is usually the reason given by politicians regardless of party. You can’t both have a massive budget surplus and claim we can’t afford things. The medicare for all example is just the most obvious. I’m sure there are many other projects we supposedly can’t afford while having a massive budget surplus.

One interesting proposition on the ballot is giving schools more money for the arts. The most interesting part is going over the brief explanation, what the pros and cons are, and who is for or against it. For this proposition it said there are no downsides and nobody is against it.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I probably shouldn’t, but I feel somewhat bad for Walker. He’s not all there.














						Herschel Walker Flashes Seemingly Bogus Badge at GA Debate
					

Herschel Walker showed up to his Georgia Senate debate Friday, expecting barbs from his opponent, incumbent Raphael Warnock ... but ended up getting a scolding from the debate's moderator for intentionally breaking the rules with a seemingly bogus badge.




					www.tmz.com


----------



## lizkat

Philadelphia Inquirer columnist took a look at research into who's behind the revolting political ads that ran during the baseball playoffs involving the Phillies.    Guy notes that these ads made the infamous Willie Horton ad during the 1988 Bush père campaign against Dukakis look moderate, although at the time it was so shocking that it only ran one time, not least because Republicans found it too offensive..  These ads ran continuously during daytime baseball games with kids likely watching.









						Who’s behind those vile, right-wing political TV ads during the baseball playoffs? | Will Bunch
					

Fans enjoying Phillies playoff games have been jarred by violent, vile political ads from Citizens for Sanity. Here's who's behind them.




					www.inquirer.com
				






> The required tagline lists the sponsor as a new group calling itself Citizens for Sanity. On one level, thanks to some excellent research by the campaign-finance watchdog Open Secrets, we know a lot about who these Citizens for Sanity are: the very worst, xenophobic remnants of Team Trump, offering America not just a new low for the 2022 midterms but a sneak preview of the nightmare that the 45th president’s 2024 comeback crusade is likely to be.






> You won’t be shocked to learn that the ads are deliberately dishonest, conflating Democratic immigration policies, for example, with the horrific case of one undocumented immigrant named Christopher Puente accused of raping a toddler at a fast-food restaurant in Chicago (”She was 3 ... years ... old,” the narrator intones, milking the pathos). *What’s not said is that the alleged assault occurred in February 2020, more than three years into the presidency of Republican Donald Trump*, well before Biden took office.
> 
> That’s appalling, but that’s not what’s most upsetting about these ads, which, according to social media, have been broadcast nationally during the baseball telecasts on Fox Sports 1. *There is absolutely no filter of jarring and often violent imagery, the racist overtones and the xenophobic innuendo, and the unrelenting darkness of the “American carnage” vibe. No one cares that this is afternoon baseball and little girls and boys are watching.* This is America now.






> Open Secrets reports a close overlap between the trustees of Citizens for Sanity — as identified to the Federal Communications Commission, or FCC — and the pro-Trump America First Legal Foundation, which is spearheaded by Stephen Miller, the former Trump White House official behind harsh immigration policies such as family separation at the southern border.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

The MAGAtards in Georgia have a bit of a conundrum in the gubernatorial race. In one corner they have a Democrat. Fuck! In the other they have Kemp who refused to help Trump steal the election. FUCK! Why does The Lord test these people? It’s hard enough they have to be ever vigilante living only 1,300 miles from the Mexican border.


----------



## Eric

Just my .02 but with an almost certain recession coming next year Democrats being the party out of power will only benefit them in 2024, we should probably play the long game here. In the end we know one party or the other isn't necessarily responsible but the party in power will certainly be held accountable either way.


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> Just my .02 but with an almost certain recession coming next year Democrats being the party out of power will only benefit them in 2024, we should probably play the long game here. In the end we know one party or the other isn't necessarily responsible but the party in power will certainly be held accountable either way.



We darn well better hang onto the Senate...  and not try to ditch the filibuster either. We might need the Rs to have to round up the extra votes if they take the House now and THEN the Senate on coattails of the Rs'  prez ticket in 2024,  if the Dems can't keep the WH in that race.  Man it's my worst nightmare that we lose the House in 2022 and then both the WH and Senate in 2024.

I have no idea who will run for the GOP but think it won't be Trump.  In my wildest dreams there's a strong mini-Trump voice at top of the Rs' ticket after GOP primaries but it splits the conservatives and someone like McMullin will go for it (esp. if Biden runs again) and chance a serious 3rd party go the way Perot did in 1992. 

McMullin is fully aware of the fissures in the Democratic party and that progressives like myself came close to voting 3rd party in 2016, some holding back only because the thought of "helping elect Trump" by splitting the Dem vote was such a powerful disincentive. 

 If Trump is not in the 2024 picture and the Rs' candidate is too far to the right to be considered acceptable to even blue dog dems,   some indies leaning center left and very left might both flee for a center right 3rd party guy like McMullin...  as a protest vote they'd settle for as President, assuming the Senate stayed blue to weaken overall conservative influence on governance.

 I think I would not like to see that scenario happen, mostly because of the risk if Ds lose the Senate, but otherwise honestly if the Dems can't remember how to be effectively progressive after all this time of slipping to the right when it comes to putting money where mouth is,  what's wrong with voting for a center right guy who SAYS he is center right.   Maybe he can be moved while in office, and not to the right, either.  You never know.   He's a thoughtful person.   David Souter was just a thoughtful person too, and drifted to the left over the years as he thought his way through SCOTUS appeals.


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> We darn well better hang onto the Senate...  and not try to ditch the filibuster either.




Yes and no.

At this point, I am all ready for the Dems to get 52 and ditch it.  With the GOP controlling the House, it will mean nothing for the next 2 years.  But at some point (hopefully 2024) the GOP will be back in control and with no filibuster, look out.

@lizkat, I know you see what could happen if the Dems ditch it, but sooooooo many in your party and even on here, simply don't.  So I am all for giving them another taste of that particular apple.





lizkat said:


> I have no idea who will run for the GOP but think it won't be Trump.  In my wildest dreams there's a strong mini-Trump voice at top of the Rs' ticket after GOP primaries but it splits the conservatives and someone like McMullin will go for it (esp. if Biden runs again) and chance a serious 3rd party go the way Perot did in 1992.




I have to think it will be DeSantis.  Pair him with Kari Lake and watch out.  The media won't know what hit them.


----------



## lizkat

Taking these in inverse order 'cuz the last one gets a swift kick from me lol.



Herdfan said:


> I have to think it will be DeSantis. Pair him with Kari Lake and watch out. The media won't know what hit them.




Ugh.  You could be right but Lake, really?   They need to put DeSantis with someone who has half a chance of hauling in some indies and suburban women.   I don't think she's the one for that.  Women are getting more than hip to the destructive social and economic policies (in practice, regardless of how they get bullet-pointed) of the Republicans.  They might go for DeSantis if they're pro-Trump now,  but putting him and Lake on same ticket makes the ambience pretty RW.  If they go with DeSantis then probably need someone who can sound a little more moderate.  But they may have driven most of those from the GOP.  Too bad because they can't win with just pro-Trump potential voters, they need to haul in some indies and conservative Dems.

On to the Senate and the filibuster...



Herdfan said:


> I know you see what could happen if the Dems ditch it, but sooooooo many in your party and even on here, simply don't.




Yeah and I don't get why more Dems DON'T get it.   A lot of us don't look past the (understandable) anger over having low-population states' Senate votes effectively weighted more than the populous ones when it comes to "will of the people".    There IS more to the Senate than that, by design,  and more to the filibuster as well.

I know some Dems argue that the "deliberative" function of the Senate is long gone because of all the hyperpartisan considerations now.   But I think the slower pace of the Senate and the gathering of a consensus and a bipartisan vote on key issues is still important, and it doesn't happen so often in the House.  The House reps are more the voice of the people --but often via intraparty caucus concerns-- whereas the Senate, at least by intention and sometimes still in practice,  takes more a regional and sometimes national view.

It may not really be more deliberative, but the Senate is more conscious of its few numbers having national import as they consider their party, region, state's take on an issue.  In the House it's often been more heat of moment and focused on the scrum over some amendment and the "gotcha!" that comes with the vote tallies.

House: You were for or against all those amendments,  but _we_ still killed the final bill. Gotcha!

Senate:  our cities can't survive without better infrastructure but we can't afford THAT outlay.

Those are two completely different ways of looking at a same issue, and the way the chamber leaders bring their cats around to the votes are different too.  More consultation and trading on the Senate side,  more plain party discipline (or, waivers) in the House.

Of course K street has its ways of shoving its weight around in both chambers,  and in a way,  that may be even more of an argument for retaining the filibuster.   K street has to work with that higher bar of sixty votes too.  *Either party* can rue or celebrate that challenge over the years...


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Eric said:


> Just my .02 but with an almost certain recession coming next year Democrats being the party out of power will only benefit them in 2024, we should probably play the long game here. In the end we know one party or the other isn't necessarily responsible but the party in power will certainly be held accountable either way.





On some level I'd welcome the opportunity for the Republicans to Liz Truss their party and I honestly don't see them doing anything other than that.  At some point, sooner than later, people even on that side will wake up and realize you can't culture war or border wall yourself into a better economic reality.  

But at the same time there are those who believe based on historical data that the only way for our current economic system to survive is to switch to authoritarianism.  And by "survive" I don't mean a better outcome for more people.  Fuck no.  I mean those with the wealth will be a lot less shadowy about their control of the government and dictating the reality of the masses.


----------



## rdrr

This right here is a sad indication where the country is heading.   The knuckle-dragging right is so hell bent on winning that they will actually vote for this guy.









						GOP candidate arrested for masturbating by school might still win election
					

After reports of his arrest, candidate Randy Kaufman announced he was withdrawing from the race but it is too late for his name to be removed from the ballot.




					www.newsweek.com
				




Where is the morals of the GOP?


----------



## Joe

Herdfan said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> At this point, I am all ready for the Dems to get 52 and ditch it.  With the GOP controlling the House, it will mean nothing for the next 2 years.  But at some point (hopefully 2024) the GOP will be back in control and with no filibuster, look out.
> 
> @lizkat, I know you see what could happen if the Dems ditch it, but sooooooo many in your party and even on here, simply don't.  So I am all for giving them another taste of that particular apple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to think it will be DeSantis.  Pair him with Kari Lake and watch out.  The media won't know what hit them.




You sound excited for fascism.


----------



## Citysnaps

rdrr said:


> Where is the morals of the GOP?




That was my question when they elected a president who spastically mocked a respected NYT journalist suffering from a cerebral palsy-like disease, during a primary campaign stop back in 2015.


----------



## Joe

rdrr said:


> This right here is a sad indication where the country is heading.   The knuckle-dragging right is so hell bent on winning that they will actually vote for this guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GOP candidate arrested for masturbating by school might still win election
> 
> 
> After reports of his arrest, candidate Randy Kaufman announced he was withdrawing from the race but it is too late for his name to be removed from the ballot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the morals of the GOP?




They.Do.Not.Care

The only thing they care about is power and white supremacy. They're scared shitless because white people are becoming the minority and are doing everything in their power to stay in power. They will still vote for this man caught masturbating by a school because to them it's worth it to maintain power and white supremacy. Even though they call gay people groomers they will still vote for an actual person caught jacking off by their children....because they just care about that power. 

Republicans will destroy this country before giving up power and they are currently doing that. The same people that filled swimming pools with cement instead of sharing them with black people will destroy this country before giving up power. We have 1 maybe 2 elections before democracy is dead in this country all because of the Supreme Court and politicians that republicans have put in office. 

Y'all sit here playing wordle with a fascist and then wonder why republicans run all over you. Couldn't be me.


----------



## Herdfan

Joe said:


> You sound excited for fascism.




Beats socialism.


----------



## rdrr

Herdfan said:


> Beats socialism.



How so?  Have you actually processed that thought, or are you just regurgitating the mindless drivel from Fox/OAN.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> Beats socialism.




Such as public schools, fire and police departments, public infrastructure, roads, libraries, parks, public transportation, military, etc?


----------



## lizkat

This is chilling. Nevada election deniers are set to sabotage the 2022 vote if they don't like how it turns out.  County and state election boards already short staffed via intimidation or quitting, and an election denier is campaigning to replace the current secretary of state, who defended the 2020 election's integrity in Nevada.  Washington Post piece, paywall removed:

*In Nevada, election deniers prepare to sabotage the midterms*



> The election supervisors in 10 of the state’s 17 counties have already quit, been forced out or announced their departures. Lower-level election workers have quit in the face of consistent abuse. The state’s elections staff has lost eight of its 12 employees.
> 
> The (Republican) secretary of state, who vigorously defends the integrity of the 2020 election, is term-limited, and the GOP nominee to replace her, Jim Marchant, leads a national group of election deniers running for office. Marchant is on record saying that if he and his fellow candidates are elected, “we’re going to fix the whole country, and President Trump is going to be president again.”




Typical fascist playbook move:  first cast doubt on electoral system's integrity, and then rig the results of an ensuing election as desired,  amid intimidation of election workers and/or voters.

 What's a little off the beaten path is this guy's open declaration of intent to "fix the whole country."

Meanwhile the case of _Moore v Harper_ is coming up in December before the Supreme Court.  It is precisely about the alleged "independence" of state legislatures from "interference" by either a state's governor or the court system.  In the old days this was a fringe theory.  These days....  ??


----------



## Joe

He said the quiet part out loud. He’s ok with fascism. Which I knew all along. Even though he tries to play this sensible guy that can compromise. Your voting record and statements determined that was a lie. 

This dude would sit back and watch while they marched y’all to gas chambers if it came to that. That’s how crazy these fascist are.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Beats socialism.



Do you not understand the two? Or do you think there’s a place for you in the ruling class under fascism (cause there isn’t). I would hope our social programs (socialism) are here to stay, or nothing will matter cause you won’t even have roads to walk on. Walk, because you won’t be able to afford a car under fascism, and only the ruling class will have access to education.


----------



## lizkat

Some GOP officials and even candidates are in disagreement over whether their base is best off voting in person or using the convenience of mail-in or drop-off voting options.  Starting to wonder if Republicans are shooting themselves in the foot or if they just like chaos in the aftermath of election day. 

When the polls close and voting-day results are tallied, the counting of mailed-in or dropped-off absentee ballots must still continue according to whatever the state's laws say about those votes.  So the final results of an election are not known on Election Night, and sometimes there are enough votes cast by mail or drop-box to make a difference in the outcome.

Apparently the GOP has mixed views on which approach to voting will make them look better on Election Night, voting early or voting in person on the day.   But that mixed messaging apparently has some voters confused and party honchos dismayed about possible effect on overall turnout. 

The Tampa Bay Times rounded up some of the array of opinions on voting methods,  and reasons for preferring one or another, whether pratical, cosmetic, strategic or..  well, allegedly nefarious.









						GOP voters told to hold onto mail ballots until Election Day
					

The plan by party activists has resulted in a confusing array of messages for Republicans.




					www.tampabay.com
				






> In Georgia, a recent online flier by one grassroots group read: “Voting in person and on Election Day is the only way to overwhelm the system.” A conservative group in the state, VoterGA, told its members to “protect” their votes by applying for an absentee ballot early and waiting to deliver it until Election Day.
> 
> The chair of the state Republican Party, David Shafer, recently tweeted on the party’s official account: “Voting in-person early is just as safe as voting in-person on Election Day!”






> The cross-messaging also is hitting Republican voters in Arizona, which has high-stakes races this year for U.S. Senate, governor and secretary of state. Mail voting has been popular there among voters of both parties for years.
> 
> State Sen. Wendy Rogers, a Republican who backed a partisan review of 2020 ballots in Maricopa County, told viewers of One America News Network earlier this month that “we need to vote on the last day, the day of Election Day, so they don’t know how much to cheat by.”






> “If you have a mail-in ballot, I think that you should mail it in. I want people to vote,” Kari Lake, the Republican nominee for governor, told reporters this month. “And vote whatever way you want to vote, but vote.”
> 
> Lake has been among those calling for a rollback in mailed ballots and early voting, favoring instead a single day of in-person voting. Blake Masters, the Republican candidate for Senate in Arizona who also has Trump’s support, said it’s fine to vote by mail if that’s what a voter prefers.
> 
> “I want to know results on election night,” Masters told reporters earlier this month. “I’m telling people vote in person, if you can. If not, vote early and return via mail. And let’s know the result.”




Some of the GOP suggestions are playing into Trump's unfounded assertion of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election.   But even some Democrats have urged people to vote in person, so it's not just the Rs having mixed views (and for assorted reasons) on absentee or on-the-day votes.



> In Georgia, about 23% of mailed ballots have been returned with just over two weeks before Election Day compared to about 35% at about the same time in 2020 and almost 37% in 2018. As of Oct. 19 in Wisconsin, 45% of mailed ballots had been returned compared to 56% in at the same point 2020 and 2018.




Some Democrats have advocated voting in person or else submitting ballots at the last minute for them to be counted after polls have closed and before those absentee ballots must be received.   Sadly, it sounds like the conspiracy theories about election fraud have started to filter into Democrats' thinking, turning what had for Dems been just a question of personal choice into a strategy to make it harder for Rs who intend to cheat to know how much to try to cheat by.



> Pam Keith, an attorney, Democratic activist and former congressional candidate in Florida, said she thinks the predictability that Democrats will vote by mail gives Republicans an early hint at turnout levels. That’s why she is advocating for a surge of ballots at the last minute, catching Republicans off guard.
> 
> “By voting early, we are showing our hand,” Keith said. “We show what our turnout number is going to be. And if they know that the overwhelming majority of vote-by-mail ballots are in, then they know what they need to do to win.”




Seems to me that all this waffling about "how to make your vote count!" may do in the end is to make people less likely to bother voting at all, if both sides think the other side is bound to cheat. Low turnout is of course what Republicans figure favors them,  as their traditional demographic constituency dwindles.   But low turnout can be catastrophic if it comes from their own base.

Spontaneous movements to boycott an election have been more often a popular reaction when rigged elections have been a fact on the ground (verified by international observers) for at least several rounds,  rather than an early response to assertions by one party that the other has stolen a recent election or is setting up to steal the next one.​​So far there does not seem any such movement afoot in the USA, but apathy about elections has been a feature here for a long time already, and the hassling of voters of either major party about which method of voting to use may further reduce turnout.​
What's really astounding about this cooked-up GOP controversy over election integrity is that in a number of states and with bipartisan support,  mail-in and drop-off balloting have been in use without problems for years on end already,  and the in-person voting has been watched and supervised in bipartisan fashion for decades at the polls and counting stations.   I think it has dismayed moderate Republican voters, especially those with families and busy schedules who have grown to assume they can fill out their mailed ballot and just drop it back in the mail.  Why we don't hear more about it is beyond me.  I don't think all those voters are under the sway of Trump's conspiracy theories.


----------



## Herdfan

Citysnaps said:


> Such as public schools, fire and police departments, public infrastructure, roads, libraries, parks, public transportation, military, etc?




No.  That's not Socialism.  Those are social constructs.  

Under true socialism the government controls the means of production of most industries.  They can't do what they do now with any efficiency, so what makes you think they could do more?


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> Do you not understand the two? Or do you think there’s a place for you in the ruling class under fascism (cause there isn’t).




Not a chance.  Anymore than you would under true socialism.

As for the rest, see my other answer.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> No.  That's not Socialism.  Those are social constructs.
> 
> Under true socialism the government controls the means of production of most industries.  They can't do what they do now with any efficiency, so what makes you think they could do more?




Not that this is being seriously considered and keeping in mind that fossil fuel prices are a global conspiracy, what are your thoughts on nationalizing JUST the fossil fuel industry?  Seems to me at minimum it would greatly reduce the price at the pump because that’s the way it is at every other country that has done so. In some countries it also largely props up their social services.  It also provides incentive to invest in things like refining capacity.  The only downside I see is removing the possibility for a handful of people at the top and investors to get filthy rich, which, boo hoo.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Herdfan said:


> No.  That's not Socialism.  Those are social constructs.
> 
> Under true socialism the government controls the means of production of most industries.  They can't do what they do now with any efficiency, so what makes you think they could do more?



First, those social constructs are what the GOP will reduce or take away if they get the chance as their only goal appears to be preventing their donor class from having to pay a dollar more in taxes.

Second, the often lauded efficiency of private industry is a myth, speaking from personal experience in megacorp. When I first started I asked a senior employee how our company can even make money considering how inefficiently it operated. His reply was that the competition was even less efficient. Tried calling your cable company lately? How many companies can you call without hearing "we are receiving an unusually large number of calls," being put through a long and confusing series of prompts (including being asked to explain IN A FEW WORDS why you are calling when the reason for the call is complex) and then after a long wait finally being connected to someone. That is, if you're not disconnected.


----------



## Alli

And right on schedule, paywall removed, this one’s for you, Herdy.



			https://wapo.st/3MVmWxv
		


Opinion 

 Democrats have a strong closing argument: The GOP would wreck the economy​


----------



## lizkat

Let the armed intimidation of prospective voters begin...   I am sickened by this, really.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1583951752897781760/


----------



## Huntn

I heard a term today Negative Partisanship: No matter how bad our guy is, the other side is worse. It signals a refusal to think, abandonment of standards, some STUPID, some racist, a blatant power grab, and a recipe for a wholesale National catastrophe.

There is no real answer for this other than continued trouncing at election time. At this point, you can honestly ask who will be trounced or will we just continue to stumble ahead until Republican controlled States refuse to certify elections? Then stand bye. If the Good Ole End Justifies Us Holding Power Means Repubkican party prevails with its current make up, you can say good bye to Democracy and possibly hello to a new Civil War and a smaller number of United States of America.

You might say Democrats/Liberal do the same thing, but if you compare the two parties, the GOP has clearly reached a lawless State, Democrats/Liberals have not. The GOP is trying to be smart by legislating their lawlessness. If the rest of us let them, then we damn well deserve it.
That said, hmm:



Herdfan said:


> Beats socialism.



Unbelievable comment, holy shit what a reveal… Do you know what fascists did during WWII?? You have a brown shirt pressed and ready to go in the closet?


----------



## Herdfan

Huntn said:


> Unbelievable comment, holy shit what a reveal… Do you know what fascists did during WWII?? You have a brown shirt pressed and ready to go in the closet?




I do.  But we are a very long ways away from that.

Also, with you and the media referring to every Republican as Fascists, it is quickly losing its meaning.


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> I do.  But we are a very long ways away from that.
> 
> Also, with you and the media referring to every Republican as Fascists, it is quickly losing its meaning.




Sounds like you are fine with blatant misuse of for example “socialist”, “communist”, “critical race theory”, and “legitimate political discourse”, but calling “fascists” “fascists” is a bridge too far?

Could you provide some examples of “you and the media referring to every Republican as Fascists”?


----------



## DT

Yeah, there's a little too much redefining things to accommodate a specific narrative.

GQP:

Socialism = All my money gets taken to support the gay and minority agendas to the deficit of straight, white, men

Fascism = The president upholds our good ol' American values like Jesus and ignoring the country's history


----------



## Joe

Herdfan said:


> I do.  But we are a very long ways away from that.
> 
> Also, with you and the media referring to every Republican as Fascists, it is quickly losing its meaning.




Because you are one. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. Fuck your feelings.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

For people who plan to vote Republican out of spite because of the economy and inflation, a couple things to consider.

The Republicans can’t do a lot about that and nor are they claiming they will or even want to. In fact if they take control of Congress they’ll make it worse because Biden.

To expand on the second part, if they do anything other than attempting to impeach 3 generations of Bidens for 2 years they’ll dismantle the social safety nets that don’t just impact the poor and elderly, but also those impacted by major recession which most are predicting will happen.


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> I do.  But we are a very long ways away from that.
> 
> Also, with you and the media referring to every Republican as Fascists, it is quickly losing its meaning.



Hold on, there is meaning.
fascism
făsh′ĭz″əm
noun

A system of government marked by centralization of authority *under a dictator*, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.*
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
*Oppressive, dictatorial control.*
* Trump is our wannabe dictator and the GOP who reluctantly supports him as a path to the continued  holding of National power.

How ironic coming from the GOP who are officially against big government, until that means they can no longer be elected honestly. They are just against current government, when they are not getting their way, gaming the system for their advantage. It’s just a power play, an enabling argument, along the lines of the States Right’s argument, as in _The Civil War was not about Slavery, it was about State’s Rights (to have slavery), _as if that makes a difference. In essence it’s abou_t “My Right“ to get my way, _which is selfish, self serving, and anti-Democratic.

When do you become anti-Democratic? For GOP leadership, it’s when you can’t be elected democratically, then we see what happens, undermining civil and voting rights, suppressing the votes from the demographics who don’t support your policies.

Full blown fascim  is evil, it’s is about excerting physical power against and control over those who disagree with you, including long incarcerations without representation, and murder. It is lawless in the traditional sense, crafting laws that benefit their group  personally and politically, and it is completely the end of holding power, justifies the means.

Fascism fundamentally is the anthesis of Democracy. It’s about forcefully holding power, and it starts by cheating, undermining  laws that  hamper your ability to hold power. Not yet full blown fascist, IMO, GOP leadership is on a fascist path attempting to put all the pieces in place to complete the evolution. This includes not speaking out against Donald Trump and his Jan6 insurrection, and embracing elements, such as white supremicist  militias who would eagerly start the civil war on command and advocate violence as a means of maintaining white privilege and control. 

As far as every Republican a fascist, that is not the case. Significant numbers seem to be abandoning the GOP, but not enough. A significant part of Republican leadership appear to be afraid of their base not voting for them, if they are not extreme enough, and they are in _gaming the system_ mode. Election board members around the country in the face of threats have resigned, being replaced by 2020 election deniers. When enough key positions are filled by loyalists, then all bets are off regarding continued American democracy,

It can be honestly asked, if you support a racist leader, does that make you a racist? Yes, it does, or at a minimum it makes you self serving, allowing racism for self percieved advantage, part and parcel of White Privilege.

And the same thing goes for Republican leadership today and fascism as we watch those in charge of the GOP undermine the will of the majority, lie their asses off, declare their willingness to overthrow elections when they lose, forging ahead with undermining civil and voter rights, legislating corruption, and undermining the Constitution as it exists today so they can continue to hold power. If you support a political party that embraces such tactics, what can be legitimately said about that and you?


----------



## ronntaylor

Huntn said:


> Unbelievable comment, holy shit what a reveal



Is it though!! Look at posting histories here and elsewhere.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> Hold on, there is meaning.
> fascism
> făsh′ĭz″əm
> noun
> 
> A system of government marked by centralization of authority *under a dictator*, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.*
> A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
> *Oppressive, dictatorial control.*
> * Trump is our wannabe dictator and the GOP who reluctantly supports him as a path to the continued  holding of National power.
> 
> How ironic coming from the GOP who are officially against big government, until that means they can no longer be elected honestly. They are just against current government, when they are not getting their way, gaming the system for their advantage. It’s just a power play, an enabling argument, along the lines of the States Right’s argument, as in _The Civil War was not about Slavery, it was about State’s Rights (to have slavery), _as if that makes a difference. In essence it’s abou_t “My Right“ to get my way, _which is selfish, self serving, and anti-Democratic.
> 
> When do you become anti-Democratic? For GOP leadership, it’s when you can’t be elected democratically, then we see what happens, undermining civil and voting rights, suppressing the votes from the demographics who don’t support your policies.
> 
> Full blown fascim  is evil, it’s is about excerting physical power against and control over those who disagree with you, including long incarcerations without representation, and murder. It is lawless in the traditional sense, crafting laws that benefit their group  personally and politically, and it is completely the end of holding power, justifies the means.
> 
> Fascism fundamentally is the anthesis of Democracy. It’s about forcefully holding power, and it starts by cheating, underlining laws that  hamper your ability to hold power. Not yet full blown fascist, IMO, GOP leadership is on a fascist path attempting to put all the pieces in place to complete the evolution. This includes not speaking out against Donald Trump and his Jan6 insurrection, and embracing elements, such as white supremicist  militias who would eagerly start the civil war on command and advocate violence as a means of maintaining white privilege and control.
> 
> As far as every Republican a fascist, that is not the case. Significant numbers seem to be abandoning the GOP, but not enough. A significant part of Republican leadership appear to be afraid of their base not voting for them, if they are not extreme enough, and they are in _gaming the system_ mode. Election board members around the country in the face of threats have resigned, being replaced by 2020 election deniers. When enough key positions are filled by loyalists, then all bets are off regarding continued American democracy,
> 
> It can be honestly asked, if you support a racist leader, does that make you a racist? Yes, it does, or at a minimum it makes you self serving, allowing racism for self percieved advantage, part and parcel of White Privilege.
> 
> And the same thing goes for Republican leadership today and fascism as we watch those in charge of the GOP undermine the will of the majority, lie their asses off, declare their willingness to overthrow elections when they lose, forging ahead with undermining civil and voter rights, legislating corruption, and undermining the Constitution as it exists today so they can continue to hold power. If you support a political party that embraces such tactics, what can be legitimately said about that and you?




In today's world you wouldn't even be allowed to call Hitler, Hitler because Hitler is no Hitler.


----------



## Joe

ronntaylor said:


> Is it though!! Look at posting histories here and elsewhere.




Those of us who have paid attention knew the little fascist was fascist since MR. 

Others are too busy playing wordle with someone that would have them killed in a heartbeat.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

On Truth Social Trump posted “MAGA doesn’t vote for stupid people with big mouths,” in response to a candidate DeSantis endorsed who is anti-Trump.  

That’s actually the definition of exactly who MAGA votes for.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> Also, with you and the media referring to every Republican as Fascists, it is quickly losing its meaning.




What else do you call it when they want to overturn an election based on nothing but conjecture and install a leader? It's certainly not democracy.


----------



## Huntn

ronntaylor said:


> Is it though!! Look at posting histories here and elsewhere.



First time I heard that Fascism (along the lines of Me>We) is better than Socialism (We>Me)  said so simply as a philosophy.  But thinking like the Right Wing, sharing designed in an economic system is dispicable. I guess taking over by force and stripping away human rights is the clear winner. Just keep the peons at the oars so the worthy people (namely me) can live it up.


----------



## Deleted member 215

I say this every year, but I just turned in my vote-by-mail ballot in one of the many drop-boxes in my town of 30,000. 

Oh no--FRAWWWWD!!! 

Conservative heads are exploding, I know.


----------



## lizkat

TBL said:


> I say this every year, but I just turned in my vote-by-mail ballot in one of the many drop-boxes in my town of 30,000.
> 
> Oh no--FRAWWWWD!!!
> 
> Conservative heads are exploding, I know.




Not sure why I put a laugh on that post...  for the first time in my life when I walked out to the road and put my absentee ballot in my mailbox for pickup,  it crossed my mind to wonder about the political lean of the rural route mail carrier.  So it's not just conservative heads exploding over balloting this year, I guess.    And how silly.  I mean in my case all I have to do if I have concerns about disposition of my ballot is go online after awhile and look up whether it has been received and processed.  And if not, I have recourse, right up to voting day.


----------



## GermanSuplex

We already have socialism anyways, especially when it comes to to the wealthy and well-connected getting tons of money from taxpayers all the time.

Serious question - do you think Donald Trump has received more money from the federal government than he's put in, in the form of loan forgiveness, tax write-offs, bankruptcies, etc.?
I would wager the answer is almost certainly yes. It's conjecture on my part, but I would almost put money on it, and I'm sure he's not alone.

I bet the U.S. spends far more on the wealthy than they do on free school lunches, tuition loan forgiveness, food and rental assistance, etc.

A perfect window of this are the PPP loans. You have republicans who got hundreds of thousands of dollars or even millions in loans forgiven - free money from the federal government - bitching and moaning that someone somewhere is going to get 10k or 20k forgiven. What is the difference? There is none, beyond whatever convoluted justification they think of as to why its bad for others but perfectly acceptable and reasonable for them.


----------



## Alli

Joe said:


> Those of us who have paid attention knew the little fascist was fascist since MR.
> 
> Others are too busy playing wordle with someone that would have them killed in a heartbeat.



I think that’s a tad harsh. You might want to consider toning it down a bit.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

GermanSuplex said:


> We already have socialism anyways, especially when it comes to to the wealthy and well-connected getting tons of money from taxpayers all the time.
> 
> Serious question - do you think Donald Trump has received more money from the federal government than he's put in, in the form of loan forgiveness, tax write-offs, bankruptcies, etc.?



To answer your question - yes. He also went to one of his properties almost every weekend he was in office and charged the Secret Service exorbitant rates to stay there. Of course he's not alone. Hedge fund managers have the carried interest loophole. Big farmers and oil companies get subsidies. In fact the tax code is so large and complex because of all the giveaways to special interests.

And billionaire team owners get cities to help build their stadiums so they can make more billions. The stadiums are supposed to create jobs, bringing taxes, etc. but, from: The Economics of Sports Stadiums: Does public financing of sports stadiums create local economic growth, or just help billionaires improve their profit margin?

_Unfortunately, the subsidies have not created the local impact that they promised. To understand why, let’s consider the Atlanta Falcons’ new stadium, which cost $2 billion for construction—$700 million of which was paid by local taxpayers. While proponents may talk about a multiplier effect, several theoretical and empirical studies of local economic impact of stadiums have shown that beliefs that stadiums have an impact that matches the amount of money that residents pay are largely unfounded. The average stadium generates $145 million per year, but none of this revenue goes back into the community. As such, the prevalent idea among team owners of “socializing the costs and privatizing the profits” is harmful and unfair to people who are forced to pay for a stadium that will not help them._


----------



## Herdfan

mac_in_tosh said:


> _Unfortunately, the subsidies have not created the local impact that they promised. To understand why, let’s consider the Atlanta Falcons’ new stadium, which cost $2 billion for construction—$700 million of which was paid by local taxpayers. While proponents may talk about a multiplier effect, several theoretical and empirical studies of local economic impact of stadiums have shown that beliefs that stadiums have an impact that matches the amount of money that residents pay are largely unfounded. The average stadium generates $145 million per year, but none of this revenue goes back into the community. As such, the prevalent idea among team owners of “socializing the costs and privatizing the profits” is harmful and unfair to people who are forced to pay for a stadium that will not help them._




Dollars to dollars I would agree that stadiums don't pay back anywhere near what they cost.

But unless no cities had teams, where do you think companies are going to locate their HQ.  Probably in a city with a team because the execs like to own boxes and host parties.  

I just think it is really hard to quantify as there are so many variables.

On the other hand, several owners have shown they can do it with private funding.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

mac_in_tosh said:


> To answer your question - yes. He also went to one of his properties almost every weekend he was in office and charged the Secret Service exorbitant rates to stay there. Of course he's not alone. Hedge fund managers have the carried interest loophole. Big farmers and oil companies get subsidies. In fact the tax code is so large and complex because of all the giveaways to special interests.
> 
> And billionaire team owners get cities to help build their stadiums so they can make more billions. The stadiums are supposed to create jobs, bringing taxes, etc. but, from: The Economics of Sports Stadiums: Does public financing of sports stadiums create local economic growth, or just help billionaires improve their profit margin?
> 
> _Unfortunately, the subsidies have not created the local impact that they promised. To understand why, let’s consider the Atlanta Falcons’ new stadium, which cost $2 billion for construction—$700 million of which was paid by local taxpayers. While proponents may talk about a multiplier effect, several theoretical and empirical studies of local economic impact of stadiums have shown that beliefs that stadiums have an impact that matches the amount of money that residents pay are largely unfounded. The average stadium generates $145 million per year, but none of this revenue goes back into the community. As such, the prevalent idea among team owners of “socializing the costs and privatizing the profits” is harmful and unfair to people who are forced to pay for a stadium that will not help them._




Some party/body should run on raise the taxes on the rich AND lower them for everybody else.  I know it won't happen because of corruption, but it seems like a winning platform.

I think it's 100% horseshit when some pundit says "people don't want to tax the rich because they see themselves as being rich someday."  That's conveniently only said by somebody who is already rich and benefits from the status quo.  Next message is "They'll come for you next" if you tax the rich more.  Fine, then say you are actually going to lower the taxes of those who aren't rich.  Do you think people want their savings now or possibly when they reach a level that is never going to happen?  I'm going to go with the former.


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> Beats socialism.



I don't know if you're a student of history, particularly the rise of the Nazis' brand in post-WW I Germany. People I've spoken to who lived through this period all say they refused to believe society would dive to the depths it did, in part because the changes were gradual at first. We may not get to that point in the U.S., but some of the signs are there, including the moves to make voting a sham and the ongoing increase in anti-Semitic rhetoric and acts. I'm not saying all Republicans are fascists or racists, but many on the right are promoting anti-democratic and anti-Semitic practices, like refusing to accept the results of elections if they lose, and blaming their ills on the Jews.

Socialism isn't a single, unified ideology, at least in the many ways the term is used nowadays. When I think of socialism, the system in many Scandinavian countries comes to mind, particularly the provision of universal health care. How is that worse than fascism? Do you truly not want free and fair elections and have you and your family live in a society that cares about and ensures everyone's well-being, not just the people with the means to afford it?


----------



## Herdfan

Roller said:


> I don't know if you're a student of history, particularly the rise of the Nazis' brand in post-WW I Germany. People I've spoken to who lived through this period all say they refused to believe society would dive to the depths it did, in part because the changes were gradual at first. We may not get to that point in the U.S., but some of the signs are there, including the moves to make voting a sham and the ongoing increase in anti-Semitic rhetoric and acts. I'm not saying all Republicans are fascists or racists, but many on the right are promoting anti-democratic and anti-Semitic practices, like refusing to accept the results of elections if they lose, and blaming their ills on the Jews.
> 
> Socialism isn't a single, unified ideology, at least in the many ways the term is used nowadays. When I think of socialism, the system in many Scandinavian countries comes to mind, particularly the provision of universal health care. How is that worse than fascism? Do you truly not want free and fair elections and have you and your family live in a society that cares about and ensures everyone's well-being, not just the people with the means to afford it?




Yes, we are in the pot being brought to a slow boil.  Just like the frog.

I for one don't get the anti-Semitic stuff.  But then again I am not a religious person so I really don't care who or what your worship.  I don't know if the GOP or Dems are any better or worse, but I do know that two very anti-Semitic people in Congress are Dems and the GOP is generally more friendly to Israel.

The Scandinavian counties do have a working model of socialism.  But let's look at the taxes they pay using Sweden as an example (and only because I thought of it first).  Nationally the rate is 20% on all income over around $5,000 and the average municipal tax is around 32%.  Not to mention the VAT tax of around 25% on most goods.  Do you really think that level of taxes would fly in the US?  I understand you do get something for it, but given the high cost to the individual, how many people do you think would chose this over our current system.

Sweden (and other Scandanavian countries) have not gone as far with Socialism where the government controls most means of production.  So people can own businesses and gain wealth.

On the far end of the scale is Venezuela where the government took over the oil business and turned a country that should be as rich as any in the world to one where people are eating zoo animals.

As for fair elections, I am old enough to remember Election day being a big deal.  I went with my grandmother to vote and we entered the booth and she pulled all the levers.  But it was an occasion.   Schools were out and people took it seriously.  And everything was fine.  Now we can't seem to give people enough ways to vote, but if you dare question any of these new methods, you are labeled an election denier when all you want is to make sure the elections are fair.

I am sorry if I can't imagine a reason that one person should be dropping off 20 ballots while wearing rubber gloves.  I think voting is a right, but one that comes with some level of work.  If it means that much to you, then you should be willing to at the very least be slightly inconvenienced.


----------



## Citysnaps

Roller said:


> We may not get to that point in the U.S., but some of the signs are there, including the moves to make voting a sham and the ongoing increase in anti-Semitic rhetoric and acts. I'm not saying all Republicans are fascists or racists, but many on the right are promoting anti-democratic and anti-Semitic practices, like refusing to accept the results of elections if they lose, and blaming their ills on the Jews.




And let's not forget the _great replacement_ theory where believers (there are many in the US) assert that immigrants and non-whites are gaining in number and crowding out whites in society while having what they believe are adverse consequences in elections. And resulting in hate crimes across the country.  White supremacy and supremacists are real. And dangerous.


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> The Scandinavian counties do have a working model of socialism. But let's look at the taxes they pay using Sweden as an example (and only because I thought of it first). Nationally the rate is 20% on all income over around $5,000 and the average municipal tax is around 32%. Not to mention the VAT tax of around 25% on most goods. Do you really think that level of taxes would fly in the US? I understand you do get something for it, but given the high cost to the individual, how many people do you think would chose this over our current system.



I know this thread is about the 2022 Midterms, but I have to ask… $5,000? I thought you guys used annual income when discussing income, not monthly income?

For 2022 the threshold for paying Swedish state tax is 540,700 SEK (around $48,500 today, $65,800 in 2021, darn exchange rates) of taxable annual income after deductions for an individual. You can live a pretty sweet life in Sweden if you make enough money to pay state tax (something like 150% of the median income).

I could point out a bunch of sweet “something for it”, like medicine capped at 2,400 SEK ($215)/year, healthcare capped at 1,200 SEK/year, going to university without paying for it, etc., and that you as an employee are entitled to a minimum of 25 days paid vacation/year, but this is not the thread for it and it wouldn‘t really matter anyway. Just bringing over the tax percentages and applying them to your current situation without actually considering what you get for it is either beyond stupid or intentionally dishonest. If the masses realized how much they would gain from it (and you allowed them to vote fairly), your beloved current system would be fucked.

In any case — Quite sad to hear that you prefer fascism over democracy with a marginal tax rate of 32%/52% on average and a VAT of 25% on most goods and “something for it”.


----------



## Hrafn

Pumbaa said:


> I know this thread is about the 2022 Midterms, but I have to ask… $5,000? I thought you guys used annual income when discussing income, not monthly income?
> 
> For 2022 the threshold for paying Swedish state tax is 540,700 SEK (around $48,500 today, $65,800 in 2021, darn exchange rates) of taxable annual income after deductions for an individual. You can live a pretty sweet life in Sweden if you make enough money to pay state tax (something like 150% of the median income).
> 
> I could point out a bunch of sweet “something for it”, like medicine capped at 2,400 SEK ($215)/year, healthcare capped at 1,200 SEK/year, going to university without paying for it, etc., and that you as an employee are entitled to a minimum of 25 days paid vacation/year, but this is not the thread for it and it wouldn‘t really matter anyway. Just bringing over the tax percentages and applying them to your current situation without actually considering what you get for it is either beyond stupid or intentionally dishonest. If the masses realized how much they would gain from it (and you allowed them to vote fairly), your beloved current system would be fucked.
> 
> In any case — Quite sad to hear that you prefer fascism over democracy with a marginal tax rate of 32%/52% on average and a VAT of 25% on most goods and “something for it”.



Maths, details, and facts are tricky little buggers.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> Yes, we are in the pot being brought to a slow boil.  Just like the frog.
> 
> I for one don't get the anti-Semitic stuff.  But then again I am not a religious person so I really don't care who or what your worship.  I don't know if the GOP or Dems are any better or worse, but I do know that two very anti-Semitic people in Congress are Dems and the GOP is generally more friendly to Israel.
> 
> The Scandinavian counties do have a working model of socialism.  But let's look at the taxes they pay using Sweden as an example (and only because I thought of it first).  Nationally the rate is 20% on all income over around $5,000 and the average municipal tax is around 32%.  Not to mention the VAT tax of around 25% on most goods.  Do you really think that level of taxes would fly in the US?  I understand you do get something for it, but given the high cost to the individual, how many people do you think would chose this over our current system.
> 
> Sweden (and other Scandanavian countries) have not gone as far with Socialism where the government controls most means of production.  So people can own businesses and gain wealth.
> 
> On the far end of the scale is Venezuela where the government took over the oil business and turned a country that should be as rich as any in the world to one where people are eating zoo animals.
> 
> As for fair elections, I am old enough to remember Election day being a big deal.  I went with my grandmother to vote and we entered the booth and she pulled all the levers.  But it was an occasion.   Schools were out and people took it seriously.  And everything was fine.  Now we can't seem to give people enough ways to vote, but if you dare question any of these new methods, you are labeled an election denier when all you want is to make sure the elections are fair.
> 
> I am sorry if I can't imagine a reason that one person should be dropping off 20 ballots while wearing rubber gloves.  I think voting is a right, but one that comes with some level of work.  If it means that much to you, then you should be willing to at the very least be slightly inconvenienced.




I know that the higher tax rates look shocking in comparison, but let’s parallel that with what the fed is attempting to do. They’re raising interest rates to decrease demand which also ultimately just means more money for the banks in interest.  Now imagine raising taxes which would also decrease demand but the people would also get something in return as opposed to just the banks. It would also help fight inflation and the US being the world’s big consumer addict that it is would eventually find a way to return to that lifestyle but at overall relative lower prices.  A lot of the economy inside and outside the US can’t survive if we’re not constantly buying shit.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

The Scandinavian countries do have high tax rates, but from what I have heard they are not generally unpopular because they get value for their taxes: health care, education, good public transit, generous family leave, etc. They don't live in fear of going bankrupt if they get sick. I think if Americans were more aware of these things and could depend on their government to actually govern instead of engaging in corruption and partisan fighting, they might be more accepting of higher taxes. As it is now, they won't get the value for higher taxes and just be in more of a financial bind.


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> As for fair elections, I am old enough to remember Election day being a big deal. I went with my grandmother to vote and we entered the booth and she pulled all the levers. But it was an occasion. Schools were out and people took it seriously. And everything was fine. Now we can't seem to give people enough ways to vote, but if you dare question any of these new methods, you are labeled an election denier when all you want is to make sure the elections are fair.



Wow! How many new ways are there? Sounds like I’ve missed several. Could you provide some examples for an interested foreigner?

Out of curiosity, which new method(s) did you get labeled an election denier for questioning? What reasonable concerns did you have that were ignored?

Are you equally concerned about other aspects of fair elections, such as fair access to polling stations, fair voter registration, freedom from intimidation, etc.?



Herdfan said:


> I am sorry if I can't imagine a reason that one person should be dropping off 20 ballots while wearing rubber gloves. I think voting is a right, but one that comes with some level of work. If it means that much to you, then you should be willing to at the very least be slightly inconvenienced.



Rubber gloves could be explained by that pesky little pandemic, you probably have heard of it. I tried googling _dropping off 20 ballots while wearing rubber gloves_ but only got hits for _2000 Mules_ so you’ll have to provide more information about that incident.

Regarding voting requiring “some level of work” and voters “should be willing to at the very least be slightly inconvenienced“, how do you picture that in the context of fair elections? Is it fine to burden certain groups of voters with more work? Inconveniencing them more?


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Sweden (and other Scandanavian countries) have not gone as far with Socialism where the government controls most means of production. So people can own businesses and gain wealth.



I think you may have confused socialism and communism. It’s a common mistake.


----------



## Hrafn

Alli said:


> I think you may have confused socialism and communism. It’s a common mistake.



I think there's more than that being confused.


----------



## AG_PhamD

It will definitely be interesting to see what happens in the mid-terms. It seems pretty inevitable they will take the house but the republican’s prospects appear to be improving in the senate where it now appears to be a 50/50 tossup. 

As a moderate and an independent, I’m very disappointed with the current political environment of our county and the amount of division that exists. Politics these days seems almost entirely about attacking the opposite party than actually providing solutions. 

As for 2024 I think the republicans would be incredibly stupid to run Trump. It’s looking more and more possible that he won’t be eligible either. Desantis presents as a far more “professional” candidate but policy wise I think he much further right than Trump. And I think the Dems need to find a replacement for Biden-Harris  for 2024 because I don’t see them having a particularly good chance of winning.  

The Left seems to be basing much of their campaigning around Jan 6th, which I’m not convinced will be a successful tactic. When it comes to a lot of the problems average Americans are facing I don’t feel the left is taking them that seriously- in some cases they seemingly ignore problems even exist. 

The Right I think has a better strategy talking about things like inflation, the economy, gas prices, crime, etc which are relatable problems… the problem is I don’t actually see them offering solutions. Just like how they said they would “repeal and replace Obamacare”, however never actually came up with a replacement, at least one anyone actually wanted and would vote for. The only thing that seems clear the right wants to take action on are niche culture war issues that in reality are of little concern to the average American compared to things like the economy, healthcare, education, etc. 

Idk, the way I see it this two party system isn’t working for us on a practical level or on a social level. And things only seem to be getting worse. I recognize that the US has diverse political ideology and therefore it’s not healthy for one party (R or D) to control all branches of government. 2024 could potentially have the republicans controlling the house, senate, presidency and (for all intents and purposes) the Supreme Court. That’s not a good situation in my book.


----------



## Yoused

One preacher elicits prayers that "their computers stop working until after the election"


----------



## fooferdoggie

Yoused said:


> One preacher elicits prayers that "their computers stop working until after the election"



Plus they wished people would die. so christian of them.


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> Yes, we are in the pot being brought to a slow boil.  Just like the frog.
> 
> I for one don't get the anti-Semitic stuff.  But then again I am not a religious person so I really don't care who or what your worship.  I don't know if the GOP or Dems are any better or worse, but I do know that two very anti-Semitic people in Congress are Dems and the GOP is generally more friendly to Israel.



Anti-Semitism has little to do with religious practice. To the extent it does, it's largely an excuse to vilify a group when people need someone to blame when they perceive their way of life is threatened or they want to divert attention from their own failings and responsibilities. That's how it's been for many centuries. I strongly recommend watching The U.S. and the Holocaust on PBS for a close look at what happened with Naziism in Germany.

You're making the mistake of assuming all Jewish American citizens gauge the worth of politicians based on their attitudes toward Israel. Yes, for some that's the primary litmus test, but many Jews in this country take a much broader view. While we appreciate the support, we don't blindly go along with the Israeli government's policies and actions. Personally, I'd strongly favor a candidate who believes in a democratic, pluralistic U.S. society over one who is anti-democratic, even if only the latter is willing to provide everything Israel requests without question.


----------



## DT

Pumbaa said:


> [...] freedom from intimidation, etc.?




Did you see the  reports on the fuckwits hanging around near the voting dropbox in Mesa, AZ?  Filming people's tags, etc., their own faces covered up, a couple had weapons.









						Election officials say armed "vigilantes" watching over ballot drop box in Mesa, Arizona
					

Two voters have filed complaints of voter intimidation to the Arizona state secretary in the past few days.




					www.axios.com


----------



## Pumbaa

DT said:


> Did you see the  reports on the fuckwits hanging around near the voting dropbox in Mesa, AZ?  Filming people's tags, etc., their own faces covered up, a couple had weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Election officials say armed "vigilantes" watching over ballot drop box in Mesa, Arizona
> 
> 
> Two voters have filed complaints of voter intimidation to the Arizona state secretary in the past few days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.axios.com



Not sure if it was that particular drop box, but yeah, I was thinking about a situation reported just like that. Some crazy shit.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Pumbaa said:


> Not sure if it was that particular drop box, but yeah, I was thinking about a situation reported just like that. Some crazy shit.



I think it is the GOP congressman tell people to do it too. Trump has made people stupid as the dead squirrel on the road.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> I for one don't get the anti-Semitic stuff.  But then again I am not a religious person so I really don't care who or what your worship.  I don't know if the GOP or Dems are any better or worse, but I do know that two very anti-Semitic people in Congress are Dems and the GOP is generally more friendly to Israel.




Being pro-Israel sort of means very little when you also are supported by - and refuse to condemn - people who go around chanting "Jews will not replace us".

Do you think Kanye West's rising popularity on the right is a coincidence given that he's being seen wearing "White Lives Matter" clothes and spouting hateful anti-Jewish nonsense?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Pumbaa said:


> Wow! How many new ways are there? Sounds like I’ve missed several. Could you provide some examples for an interested foreigner?
> 
> Out of curiosity, which new method(s) did you get labeled an election denier for questioning? What reasonable concerns did you have that were ignored?
> 
> Are you equally concerned about other aspects of fair elections, such as fair access to polling stations, fair voter registration, freedom from intimidation, etc.?
> 
> 
> Rubber gloves could be explained by that pesky little pandemic, you probably have heard of it. I tried googling _dropping off 20 ballots while wearing rubber gloves_ but only got hits for _2000 Mules_ so you’ll have to provide more information about that incident.
> 
> Regarding voting requiring “some level of work” and voters “should be willing to at the very least be slightly inconvenienced“, how do you picture that in the context of fair elections? Is it fine to burden certain groups of voters with more work? Inconveniencing them more?





AFAIK all these ballot dumping conspiracies have failed to produce even one ballot that was fraudulent and they conveniently leave that out of the discussion. But by their standards the actual vote doesn’t count. The only thing that counts is how the ballot got there to be counted because that’s the only aspect they could call into question that might work out in their favor. This Is one of the many reasons we need national voting standards. There’s no reason to leave it up to the states other than one party attempting to manipulate it in their favor.


----------



## Herdfan

Pumbaa said:


> I know this thread is about the 2022 Midterms, but I have to ask… $5,000? I thought you guys used annual income when discussing income, not monthly income?
> 
> For 2022 the threshold for paying Swedish state tax is 540,700 SEK (around $48,500 today, $65,800 in 2021, darn exchange rates) of taxable annual income after deductions for an individual. You can live a pretty sweet life in Sweden if you make enough money to pay state tax (something like 150% of the median income).
> 
> I could point out a bunch of sweet “something for it”, like medicine capped at 2,400 SEK ($215)/year, healthcare capped at 1,200 SEK/year, going to university without paying for it, etc., and that you as an employee are entitled to a minimum of 25 days paid vacation/year, but this is not the thread for it and it wouldn‘t really matter anyway. Just bringing over the tax percentages and applying them to your current situation without actually considering what you get for it is either beyond stupid or intentionally dishonest. If the masses realized how much they would gain from it (and you allowed them to vote fairly), your beloved current system would be fucked.
> 
> In any case — Quite sad to hear that you prefer fascism over democracy with a marginal tax rate of 32%/52% on average and a VAT of 25% on most goods and “something for it”.




Yep, doing math in my head got me.  My bad.

But, that is only for the national taxes.  The municipal taxes of 32% start at the first dollar per this chart:





So that is still very high for most in the US.  I mean 32% at dollar one.  And as noted there is a 25% VAT (similar to a sales tax, but hidden in the cost of the goods) That would not fly here no matter the benefits.  Chart was found here:









						Sweden - Individual - Taxes on personal income
					

Detailed description of taxes on individual income in Sweden



					taxsummaries.pwc.com


----------



## Herdfan

Huntn said:


> Hold on, there is meaning.
> fascism
> făsh′ĭz″əm
> noun
> 
> A system of government marked by centralization of authority *under a dictator*, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.*
> A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
> *Oppressive, dictatorial control.*
> * Trump is our wannabe dictator and the GOP who reluctantly supports him as a path to the continued  holding of National power.





Do we really want to get into dictionary definitions?  Because if we do, here is one for you:





Does that really fit some of you here?  Nope.  Actually fits me better than many of you.  Between here and MR, I do not remember calling anyone names, accusing them of wanting to kill other members or belittling them.  Yet it happens to me here all the time. Doesn't sound like you respect or accept different opinions at all?

I don't react back for two reasons, one I don't care.  Caring about this is not who I am as a person nor do I want to be the person that acts like some of you act towards me.  Second, @Eric has provided us a place to hang, free of charge.  So I am not going to disrespect him by forcing him to moderate what should be a room full of adults.

Do we disagree on some things.  Sure.  But we all need to be adults about it, but sadly some of us aren't.  And that is about the limit of the shade I am willing to throw.


----------



## Herdfan

Pumbaa said:


> Wow! How many new ways are there? Sounds like I’ve missed several. Could you provide some examples for an interested foreigner?
> 
> Out of curiosity, which new method(s) did you get labeled an election denier for questioning? What reasonable concerns did you have that were ignored?
> 
> Are you equally concerned about other aspects of fair elections, such as fair access to polling stations, fair voter registration, freedom from intimidation, etc.?
> 
> 
> Rubber gloves could be explained by that pesky little pandemic, you probably have heard of it. I tried googling _dropping off 20 ballots while wearing rubber gloves_ but only got hits for _2000 Mules_ so you’ll have to provide more information about that incident.
> 
> Regarding voting requiring “some level of work” and voters “should be willing to at the very least be slightly inconvenienced“, how do you picture that in the context of fair elections? Is it fine to burden certain groups of voters with more work? Inconveniencing them more?




Like i said, Election Day used to be an event.  You could only vote that day and that was the case for a couple hundred years.  In some states, if you had a valid reason like being out of town or being elderly, you could request an Absentee Ballot that you could fill out and mail in.

Then came early voting.  I really don't have any problem with it except some people may have already voted when information about a candidate changes.  Take PA for example.  Early voting there began around October 1st.  The debate is tonight.  So if something major happens and you already voted, you can't change your vote.   Can work against/for either candidate so as to fairness it it kind of a wash.  Except for the voter who wanted to change their vote.  I have done early voting here for years, but ours is in-person only at the Courthouse.

Then along comes no excuse absentee ballots.  Anyone can have one for any reason.  And this is where it can get sketchy.  I don't think there are enough controls over this.  The standards for matching signatures has been all over the place with some states strictly enforcing it and others not caring.  And don't get me started with ballot harvesting.

I think anyone who wants to vote should be able to vote.  But there do need to be some controls.  I'm sorry, but if being asked for an ID is intimidating to you, then you need to grow up.  You need an ID to do just about anything these days so the idea that people (mainly minorities) can't get one is BS.  If everyone has to show it, where is the intimidation?

----------------------

Yes, the hits you are going to get is from _2000 Mules_.  I have some concerns about some of their conclusions.  For example, they make a big show about how certain cell phones ping off certain towers near drop boxes and then near some non-profit.  They are trying to make a case so I get that is what they are doing.  They also really never explain how the mules get the ballots.

But while the cell phone data may be sketchy, one thing that isn't is the camera pointed at the drop box.  It simply records what it sees.  And that is where the rubber gloves come into play.

For the 2020 General, the cameras didn't really pick up anyone wearing rubber gloves.  That was really only the case for the GA runoff elections in January.  Just so happens that in Arizona a woman had been arrested and charged for illegal ballot harvesting between the General and the GA runoff and the proof was her fingerprints on the ballots.  Now the connection is circumstantial, but it does raise questions.  No gloves before a woman was arrested for ballot harvesting, gloves after.  Is it proof, No.  Is it something that should be investigated, yes.  But ask a legit question about it and you are labeled an election denier.  But only if you are a Republican.  Hillary and Stacey can say their elections were stolen all day long and the media will celebrate them.  A Republican asks how Biden who didn't come out of his basement for a year got more votes than Obama and you are the worst POS in history.


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> Yep, doing math in my head got me.  My bad.
> 
> But, that is only for the national taxes.  The municipal taxes of 32% start at the first dollar per this chart:
> 
> View attachment 18634
> 
> So that is still very high for most in the US.  I mean 32% at dollar one.



Not exactly dollar one. Or even krona one. Taxable income is less than total income. Still high in comparison, sure. At least you weren’t off by an order of magnitude this time. Progress!



Herdfan said:


> And as noted there is a 25% VAT (similar to a sales tax, but hidden in the cost of the goods) That would not fly here no matter the benefits.  Chart was found here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden - Individual - Taxes on personal income
> 
> 
> Detailed description of taxes on individual income in Sweden
> 
> 
> 
> taxsummaries.pwc.com



If that wouldn’t fly there _no matter the benefits_, there is something seriously wrong with y’all. What if one were to end up with more money remaining to spend after taxes and expenses thanks to the benefits?


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> So if something major happens and you already voted, you can't change your vote. Can work against/for either candidate so as to fairness it it kind of a wash. Except for the voter who wanted to change their vote.




If a voter is on the fence about who to vote for, they should not cast their ballot until they've absorbed as much information as they need (including debates) before casting their ballot. Similar to buying a car, or ordering a meal at a nice restaurant. 

That seems like the responsible thing to do.


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> Like i said, Election Day used to be an event.  You could only vote that day and that was the case for a couple hundred years.  In some states, if you had a valid reason like being out of town or being elderly, you could request an Absentee Ballot that you could fill out and mail in.
> 
> Then came early voting.  I really don't have any problem with it except some people may have already voted when information about a candidate changes.  Take PA for example.  Early voting there began around October 1st.  The debate is tonight.  So if something major happens and you already voted, you can't change your vote.   Can work against/for either candidate so as to fairness it it kind of a wash.  Except for the voter who wanted to change their vote.  I have done early voting here for years, but ours is in-person only at the Courthouse.
> 
> Then along comes no excuse absentee ballots.  Anyone can have one for any reason.  And this is where it can get sketchy.  I don't think there are enough controls over this.  The standards for matching signatures has been all over the place with some states strictly enforcing it and others not caring.  And don't get me started with ballot harvesting.
> 
> I think anyone who wants to vote should be able to vote.  But there do need to be some controls.  I'm sorry, but if being asked for an ID is intimidating to you, then you need to grow up.  You need an ID to do just about anything these days so the idea that people (mainly minorities) can't get one is BS.  If everyone has to show it, where is the intimidation?
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> Yes, the hits you are going to get is from _2000 Mules_.  I have some concerns about some of their conclusions.  For example, they make a big show about how certain cell phones ping off certain towers near drop boxes and then near some non-profit.  They are trying to make a case so I get that is what they are doing.  They also really never explain how the mules get the ballots.
> 
> But while the cell phone data may be sketchy, one thing that isn't is the camera pointed at the drop box.  It simply records what it sees.  And that is where the rubber gloves come into play.
> 
> For the 2020 General, the cameras didn't really pick up anyone wearing rubber gloves.  That was really only the case for the GA runoff elections in January.  Just so happens that in Arizona a woman had been arrested and charged for illegal ballot harvesting between the General and the GA runoff and the proof was her fingerprints on the ballots.  Now the connection is circumstantial, but it does raise questions.  No gloves before a woman was arrested for ballot harvesting, gloves after.  Is it proof, No.  Is it something that should be investigated, yes.  But ask a legit question about it and you are labeled an election denier.  But only if you are a Republican.  Hillary and Stacey can say their elections were stolen all day long and the media will celebrate them.  A Republican asks how Biden who didn't come out of his basement for a year got more votes than Obama and you are the worst POS in history.



It’s all about the evidence. Or lack thereof.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Pumbaa said:


> It’s all about the evidence. Or lack thereof.



even people who should know better are still influenced by trumps lies. even after al of the testimony under oath it still creeps out. with the sketchy mail in ballots crap. I want to see the evidence of sketchy. the nI changed from my poor signature to my initials here I Oregon I got a letter making me verify myself.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> Then along comes no excuse absentee ballots. Anyone can have one for any reason. And this is where it can get sketchy. I don't think there are enough controls over this.




California mails an official ballot (with a postage-free return envelope) to *every REGISTERED voter* a few weeks before the election. You can also drop your ballot off at a variety of official drop-off locations.

That ensures high voter participation - as it should be. The system works very well. And it's easy for people who might be traveling, sick/disabled, or having a work schedule that would otherwise make it difficult to vote.


----------



## Yoused

Herdfan said:


> Do we really want to get into dictionary definitions? Because if we do, here is one for you:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does that really fit some of you here?




Some of us here do not actually call ourselves liberals. Many of us prefer to not have labels applied to us (they are sticky and pull hair out) – "liberal" is a label more often used by White-Wing-types to try to malign people that hold different and challenging opinions.

In fact, outside the US, "liberal" typically has the opposite meaning (closer to glibertarian). I know if I lived in Canada, the Lib-Dems would not be my party of choice most of the time.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> I for one don't get the anti-Semitic stuff. But then again I am not a religious person so I really don't care who or what your worship. I don't know if the GOP or Dems are any better or worse, but I do know that two very anti-Semitic people in Congress are Dems and the GOP is generally more friendly to Israel.




Not sure if you are referring to two Muslim members of Congress, who are not pro-Israel but who are also not anti-Semitic.   They happen not to think Israeli treatment of Palestinians is acceptable, and they do not buy into the "yeah but whaddabout..." from those who unconditionally support Israelis no matter whether all Palestinians are being made to pay for the indefensible behavior of some.  Same of course goes for anyone on the flip side blaming Palestinians for indiscriminate injury to Israelis.   In either case, it's not about religion, it's about geopolitical concerns.

There's a lot of "flex" in both practice and belief that "the GOP is generally more friendly to Israel".  
​Some fundamentally inclined Christians believe it is necessary during the times in which we now live to protect existence of Jews in Israel, so that the Scriptures in which they believe will bear out true in their prophesy of "the Rapture."​​However, some other Christians believe that Israel was created by divine providence and that it is a holy land in which Jews and Christians alike have sprung from the same tribe.  Some of those believers in the USA are not necessarily Republicans.​​Bottom line though,  the Abrahamic religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) all do associate that part of the MIddle East as the homeland of the one God they call by different names.  In at least urban areas of the USA,  one can usually find clerics in all three of those religions who will agree that their prophets foretold of the one true God and that the lineage of those prophets does go back to Abraham.​​Where it gets complicated  --and often ends up with people hurling charges at each other about being biased-- is sorting out Israeli and Palestinian politics,  and what exactly are the geopolitical entities variously thought of as Israel or Palestine or  "Israel and Palestine" or "the West Bank and Gaza and part of Israel and sometimes Jordan."   Jordan so far shrugs and builds more tents for refugees from Iraq or Syria...   and probably recites the lamentations of Jeremiah from time to time in the darkness of night.  Yes, Jeremiah was regarded as a prophet by Islam too.

These issues of "the holy land" today are largely secular issues, not religious ones, and yet there is a large contingent of both observant Jews, Christians and Muslims who continue to frame it all in terms of their own religious beliefs, i.e., efforts to conform interpretations of today's realities to both history and prophesy of ancient scriptures.

Yeah, so...   that's not _too_ complicated for a country like the USA, lately well and truly mired in thinking everything can be sorted down to one or the other of a binary, of a pair of options, eh?

Still we insist on ability to know for sure who's being anti-Semitic and who's talking about secular politics.   We also continue to burden ourselves with old-world tropes about characteristics of Jews, and post-9/11 tropes about characteristics of Muslims.   The tropes about Christians --running the range from amused to outraged, e.g. from "angels and demons, gee"  to ancestral memories of the Inquisition or burning at the stake in Tudor England--  are usually muttered under breath...   since for all the complaining by some white evangelicals,  Christianity is still the dominant religion in the USA.    The adherents to other religions still have a corner of the soul that fears its place in a country with a First Amendment that guarantees freedom of worship but lately whines about "being replaced" when it has been and still remains dominant.

It's easy to blame any or all "religions" for this mess.   More factually, we don't like admitting that the insisted upon differences are still largely down to racialized or nationalistic politics...  yeah, tribes, and turf.  What else is new under the sun since -- if one is scripturally inclined--  Adam and Eve met the snake and doubt was introduced to the Garden of Eden.


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> Not sure if you are referring to two Muslim members of Congress, who are not pro-Israel but who are also not anti-Semitic.




Yeah, because Pelosi publically rebuked Omar for nothing:









						Ilhan Omar apologizes after Pelosi denounces tweet as anti-Semitic
					

Democrats moved quickly after the freshman lawmaker suggested support for Israel stemmed from campaign donations.




					www.politico.com
				




And then there's Tlaib:









						Former DNC Chair Schultz Calls Democrat Tlaib 'Antisemitic' Over Remarks On Israel
					

Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Fla.) accused Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) of making antisemetic comments during a pro-Palestine event this week.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Alli

The problem comes from those people who act like Jews in the diaspora (including American Jews) and Israelis are the same. Yet they don’t do that with American Catholics and Roman Catholics anymore. Maybe in another 50 years they’ll understand that the Jews who feel that strongly about Israel have made aliya and are living there, as opposed to most of the rest of us who like the freedoms of the US and don’t really care about Israel and are happy being assimilated.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Citysnaps said:


> California mails an official ballot (with a postage-free return envelope) to *every REGISTERED voter* a few weeks before the election. You can also drop your ballot off at a variety of official drop-off locations.
> 
> That ensures high voter participation - as it should be. The system works very well. And it's easy for people who might be traveling, sick/disabled, or having a work schedule that would otherwise make it difficult to vote.




But a minority party can’t win under those conditions. The right has convinced itself that when a minority party gets a minority of votes it’s an unfair or “rigged” system.


----------



## Citysnaps

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> But a minority party can’t win under those conditions. *The right has convinced itself that when a minority party gets a minority of votes it’s an unfair or “rigged” system.*




And they can never explain how such a system (like California's) can be _systematically_ rigged to make any difference in the final result.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Citysnaps said:


> And they can never explain how such a system (like California's) can be _systematically_ rigged to make any difference in the final result.




They shouldn’t be completely discouraged by individual voter reality. The Senate, Supreme Court, and electoral college were all set up, dare I say “rigged”, for minority rule (read: wealthy white landowners)


----------



## Edd

I’m getting pretty wound up about these elections. My state‘s senate and house races have Dem incumbents running against a couple of fucking freak shows. I think we’ve got this but I am pestering my friends to vote or I’ll throw a fit.


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> Do we really want to get into dictionary definitions?  Because if we do, here is one for you:
> 
> View attachment 18636
> 
> Does that really fit some of you here?  Nope.  Actually fits me better than many of you.  Between here and MR, I do not remember calling anyone names, accusing them of wanting to kill other members or belittling them.  Yet it happens to me here all the time. Doesn't sound like you respect or accept different opinions at all?
> 
> I don't react back for two reasons, one I don't care.  Caring about this is not who I am as a person nor do I want to be the person that acts like some of you act towards me.  Second, @Eric has provided us a place to hang, free of charge.  So I am not going to disrespect him by forcing him to moderate what should be a room full of adults.
> 
> Do we disagree on some things.  Sure.  But we all need to be adults about it, but sadly some of us aren't.  And that is about the limit of the shade I am willing to throw.



Dictionaries do serve  a very import purpose, they define terms  for people. When you say you’d pick fascism over socialism  it makes me think either you don’t know the recent (within 100 years) history of fascism, you were being sarcastic or trolling, or you are not as good of a person as I previously imagined you to be.

There is no way that you could be a believer in the standards as laid out by our Founding Fathers for the United States of America and say you would prefer fascism (inherently violent and oppressive) over socialism (spreading the wealth, communal support) and not have a significant number of participants in this forum be critical of this position.

And btw, no one is advocating full blown socialism, but we already have socialistic polices in place and as Capitalism fails us, we will either become more socialistic or have a civil war on our hands.

Just wait until the Republicans try to destroy the meager Social Security System, and Medicare, which the first is a nice supplement,  no one could live on comfortably by itself,  and the second is vital for as a means for average citizens to have a chance at affording medical bills in this country.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I watched the Fetterman/Oz debate and wow. I have to admit, it was tough watching Fetterman stumble and stutter through all of his answers. I get the feeling he's there mentally, but this is politics, and while sitting in a chair in an office pondering what to vote on, how to vote, what legislation to introduce may be no issue for him, I would absolutely raise concerns if it was Oz doing the same thing. I understand he's coming off of a stroke, and he seems to be aware of his limitations too, which is why it took so long to get to this debate.

But its telling that even with that performance, the big news from the debate is Oz's bizarre comment that reproductive health of women should be decided between a woman, her doctor and _local politicians_? The Fetterman team was probably rejoicing when he made that statement, because that took all the wind out of Oz's otherwise ok performance. That WAS the line of the night, for all the wrong reasons. I don't think that was a planned statement, and I imagine some of his campaign staff cringed the moment he said that. In fact, that may be the gaffe of his entire campaign.

Fetterman still has an ok lead in the polls, but polls are finicky, especially in such a true swing state like PA. I'll be surprised if they let a celebrity carpetbagger like Oz who's only connection to Pennsylvania is wanting to pick up an open senate seat represent them in Washington, but then again republicans aren't the most rational of voters as of late, it seems.

So while I am definitely understanding of concerns around Fetterman's health from those who are sincere about it, I don't want to hear it from those who use a stupid Biden gaffe as "proof" of his so-called dementia, or those who cheer Trump on (who, by the way, seems to be getting worse by the month as well. Trump flubs every bit as much as Fetterman, he just doesn't ever stop to think about what's coming out of his mouth, so he just keeps talking.)

"Democrats are destroying our constipation and LOOK.... our CONSTITUTION, its very important! They want to ruin the constitution!"

That's a Trump classic - mispronounce or flub something, then quickly interrupt your own speech and repeat what you meant to say as an aside. He does that about a dozen times a cult rally.


----------



## Roller

GermanSuplex said:


> That's a Trump classic - mispronounce or flub something, then quickly interrupt your own speech and repeat what you meant to say as an aside. He does that about a dozen times a cult rally.



Or, to be more precise, try to make it seem that your miscue and its correction were both accurate. The one I recall most vividly happened during a State of the Union address, when Trump pointed out a Homeland Security employee who, he claimed, went by CJ or DJ. 

I think this is yet another example of Trump never wanting to admit being wrong or losing, whether it’s a verbal error or an election. He’s incapable, which is an extremely dangerous trait in someone with so much power.


----------



## Herdfan

Huntn said:


> When you say you’d pick fascism over socialism  it makes me think either you don’t know the recent




See, I never said I would pick fascism over socialism.  You all have been calling everyone right of center a fascist for so long it has lost all meaning.

When I posted that it (fascism) beats socialism it was in jest.   Here is what transpired.



Herdfan said:


> I have to think it will be DeSantis.  Pair him with Kari Lake and watch out.  The media won't know what hit them.




To which this response was posted:



Joe said:


> You sound excited for fascism.




And my response was:



Herdfan said:


> Beats socialism.




From that point it went off the rails.  My point is if I can be labeled a fascist for liking a certain politician, then it's fair game to label others socialist for who they vote for.  But see, it doesn't mean I like fascism anymore that it means you or anyone else likes socialism.

But I am up for examples of exactly what fascists things DeSantis *has actually done*.  Or Lake, but since she hasn't ever been elected, I doubt there is much.   I want them to run simply to watch the media's head's explode as both are savage and well prepared.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> I watched the Fetterman/Oz debate and wow. I have to admit, it was tough watching Fetterman stumble and stutter through all of his answers. I get the feeling he's there mentally, but this is politics, and while sitting in a chair in an office pondering what to vote on, how to vote, what legislation to introduce may be no issue for him, I would absolutely raise concerns if it was Oz doing the same thing. I understand he's coming off of a stroke, and he seems to be aware of his limitations too, which is why it took so long to get to this debate.




On some level I agree with you.  He may very well be all there mentally.  But I also think for him to be able to process it takes a bit more time than someone who isn't recovering from a stroke.  He also needs it to be presented in a certain way.  But that is a detriment in the job he is looking to hold.  The party should have replaced him.


----------



## Edd

Herdfan said:


> See, I never said I would pick fascism over socialism.  You all have been calling everyone right of center a fascist for so long it has lost all meaning.
> 
> When I posted that it (fascism) beats socialism it was in jest.   Here is what transpired.
> 
> 
> 
> To which this response was posted:
> 
> 
> 
> And my response was:
> 
> 
> 
> From that point it went off the rails.  My point is if I can be labeled a fascist for liking a certain politician, then it's fair game to label others socialist for who they vote for.  But see, it doesn't mean I like fascism anymore that it means you or anyone else likes socialism.
> 
> But I am up for examples of exactly what fascists things DeSantis *has actually done*.  Or Lake, but since she hasn't ever been elected, I doubt there is much.   I want them to run simply to watch the media's head's explode as both are savage and well prepared.



I’m not expert on DeSantis but his spat with Disney caught my eye when it happened. 









						DeSantis vs. Disney: A timeline
					

The two main timeline stamps for the feud between Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida and The Walt Disney Company.




					www.deseret.com
				




Within a month of Disney publicly disagreeing with his Don’t Say Gay crap, he conveniently became very interested in their tax status, to their potential detriment. That’s what a fascist would do, to be sure.


----------



## Herdfan

Edd said:


> I’m not expert on DeSantis but his spat with Disney caught my eye when it happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DeSantis vs. Disney: A timeline
> 
> 
> The two main timeline stamps for the feud between Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida and The Walt Disney Company.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.deseret.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Within a month of Disney publicly disagreeing with his Don’t Say Gay crap, he conveniently became very interested in their tax status, to their potential detriment. That’s what a fascist would do, to be sure.




Maybe.  But by definition to be a fascist, you are a dictator.  The law to pulled back their special status was passed by the FL Legislature.  Which is exactly the opposite of fascism.  









						Florida Senate passes bill to strip Disney's special self-governing status
					

The Florida House still has to vote on the measure, which would dissolve the special taxing district that allows Disney to operate much like a local government.




					www.nbcnews.com
				












						Florida House passes bill to dissolve Disney’s special self-governing status
					

The legislation now goes to the desk of Gov. Ron DeSantis, who called on the Legislature to back the measure during its special session this week.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Edd

Herdfan said:


> Maybe.  But by definition to be a fascist, you are a dictator.  The law to pulled back their special status was passed by the FL Legislature.  Which is exactly the opposite of fascism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida Senate passes bill to strip Disney's special self-governing status
> 
> 
> The Florida House still has to vote on the measure, which would dissolve the special taxing district that allows Disney to operate much like a local government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida House passes bill to dissolve Disney’s special self-governing status
> 
> 
> The legislation now goes to the desk of Gov. Ron DeSantis, who called on the Legislature to back the measure during its special session this week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com



Oh Jesus, does the timing ring any alarm bells for you?


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Yeah, because Pelosi publically rebuked Omar for nothing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ilhan Omar apologizes after Pelosi denounces tweet as anti-Semitic
> 
> 
> Democrats moved quickly after the freshman lawmaker suggested support for Israel stemmed from campaign donations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then there's Tlaib:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Former DNC Chair Schultz Calls Democrat Tlaib 'Antisemitic' Over Remarks On Israel
> 
> 
> Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Fla.) accused Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) of making antisemetic comments during a pro-Palestine event this week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com




Well for my money as a bystander (albeit with relatives in Israel, whose elders live here and all of whom have American citizenship), I'll just say this and otherwise would refer back to my longer post to which you replied, i.e. a lot of what gets asserted (or, interpreted) in the name of religion is actually more about geopolitics, and so yeah, about control of real and political turf and so also about money.

It looks to me like both Pelosi and Wasserman-Schulz in the instances you cited had actual and prospective donor money on their minds, not least but foremost because it's in both of THEIR JOBS to put the viability of their political party at top of the workaday menu.

 It's not THEIR place to decide whether it's religion or geopolitics or "desire for access" that is motivating any donors to Democratic Party politics.  It is their place though to chastise House members who make remarks that could be interpreted as group slurs.  That interpretation may have been on the mark in the instances you cited, even if the two younger pols were definitely and more consciously voicing pro-Palestinian concerns about the sometimes unjust but official behavior of the Israeli government. 

Pols like Tlaib and Omar are elected officials who are valuable to their party as well as to their specific constituents.  They are Democrats.   They are likely to get schooled by Democratic Party leaders like any other pol in the Democratic Party who speaks ill advisedly of any other group of people in a big tent political party. 

It's up to them to consider the fact --yeah, the fact--  that even if they are speaking to geopolitical concerns in the Middle East,  even if speaking to injustice, that what they say may well be interpreted as anti-Semitic if they are not careful,  and deservedly so if they use language that is or is reminiscent of slurs or negative tropes.

Politicians who cannot learn to tailor their remarks to the audience or prospective audience at hand are likely to have to find other day jobs.    These days  (and not to say there aren't a lot of reckless pols, since there are), just about all politicians and plenty other public figures have to realize that using social media means their potential audience is global.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> I watched the Fetterman/Oz debate and wow. I have to admit, it was tough watching Fetterman stumble and stutter through all of his answers. I get the feeling he's there mentally, but this is politics, and while sitting in a chair in an office pondering what to vote on, how to vote, what legislation to introduce may be no issue for him, I would absolutely raise concerns if it was Oz doing the same thing. I understand he's coming off of a stroke, and he seems to be aware of his limitations too, which is why it took so long to get to this debate.
> 
> But its telling that even with that performance, the big news from the debate is Oz's bizarre comment that reproductive health of women should be decided between a woman, her doctor and _local politicians_? The Fetterman team was probably rejoicing when he made that statement, because that took all the wind out of Oz's otherwise ok performance. That WAS the line of the night, for all the wrong reasons. I don't think that was a planned statement, and I imagine some of his campaign staff cringed the moment he said that. In fact, that may be the gaffe of his entire campaign.
> 
> Fetterman still has an ok lead in the polls, but polls are finicky, especially in such a true swing state like PA. I'll be surprised if they let a celebrity carpetbagger like Oz who's only connection to Pennsylvania is wanting to pick up an open senate seat represent them in Washington, but then again republicans aren't the most rational of voters as of late, it seems.
> 
> So while I am definitely understanding of concerns around Fetterman's health from those who are sincere about it, I don't want to hear it from those who use a stupid Biden gaffe as "proof" of his so-called dementia, or those who cheer Trump on (who, by the way, seems to be getting worse by the month as well. Trump flubs every bit as much as Fetterman, he just doesn't ever stop to think about what's coming out of his mouth, so he just keeps talking.)
> 
> "Democrats are destroying our constipation and LOOK.... our CONSTITUTION, its very important! They want to ruin the constitution!"
> 
> That's a Trump classic - mispronounce or flub something, then quickly interrupt your own speech and repeat what you meant to say as an aside. He does that about a dozen times a cult rally.





I understand health concerns, but I’d really like to know what potential voters think Fetterman is specifically going to do as the result of having a stroke. Republicans are running extremist rubber stamps with a pulse and (results pending) that doesn’t seem to be much of a concern.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> Maybe. But by definition to be a fascist, you are a dictator. The law to pulled back their special status was passed by the FL Legislature. Which is exactly the opposite of fascism.




You could see that using legislative powers to punish those who dare disagree with the will of the current head of state cuts dangerously close to some sorta 'ism, right?


----------



## Herdfan

Edd said:


> Oh Jesus, does the timing ring any alarm bells for you?




Sure.  He was pissed at them.  I get that.  But he went through the proper channels and either or both the FL House or Senate could have said No.  He did not do it by himself.


----------



## Herdfan

Renzatic said:


> You could see that using legislative powers to punish those who dare disagree with the will of the current head of state cuts dangerously close to some sorta 'ism, right?




It may be some "ism" but since he is not a dictator and did not use violent force, it is not by definition, Fascism.  

That is why called everyone right of center a Fascist is losing its meaning.  And impact.  But by all means, keep it up.  It is going to help so much at the polls in 2 weeks.


----------



## Edd

Herdfan said:


> Sure.  He was pissed at them.  I get that.  But he went through the proper channels and either or both the FL House or Senate could have said No.  He did not do it by himself.



I’m going to call that attempted fascism. He got angry at an opinion and used his powers to lash out, it was blatantly transparent.


----------



## Herdfan

Edd said:


> I’m going to call that attempted fascism. He got angry at an opinion and used his powers to lash out, it was blatantly transparent.




Then you have changed the definition to fit what you want it to be.

But how is that any different than the current administration threatening to punish Saudi Arabia because they didn't do what Biden wanted, ie not cut production until after the midterms?  He's pissed and is going to use his powers to punish them.  Kind of seems like the same thing, No?  Is he now a Fascist?


----------



## Edd

Herdfan said:


> Then you have changed the definition to fit what you want it to be.
> 
> But how is that any different than the current administration threatening to punish Saudi Arabia because they didn't do what Biden wanted, ie not cut production until after the midterms?  He's pissed and is going to use his powers to punish them.  Kind of seems like the same thing, No?  Is he now a Fascist?



No it isn’t the same. Biden could arguably use that in the interest of the country, but DeSantis just doesn’t like their opinions and perhaps views it as a political threat. That’s the difference.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> That is why called everyone right of center a Fascist is losing its meaning.  And impact.  But by all means, keep it up.  It is going to help so much at the polls in 2 weeks.




I think the biggest problem here isn’t so much that Republicans are doing these things, but that so many people make apologies for it.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> *No.  That's not Socialism.*  Those are social constructs.
> 
> Under true socialism the government controls the means of production of most industries.  They can't do what they do now with any efficiency, so what makes you think they could do more?



Yes. It is. Funding police, schools, fire, rescue, infrastructure, social services, etc. is Socialism. Watching Republicans trying to split hairs on things they support or don't to try and squirm heir way around this is frustrating (and a bit laughable at times).

The Republican way is to think of everything as Capitalism but the reality is every one of these services are Social. It's the difference between private school and public school, one is for profit and the other is socialized for children who could never afford it otherwise.

Without these services, which again ARE social, we wouldn't have any infrastructure, an equitable education system, a military, or any of that stuff. Capitalism serves the rich in a fallible system, Socialism serves everyone else and cleans up when Capitalism fails and needs all their bailouts.


----------



## Yoused

Eric said:


> Yes. It is. Funding police, schools, fire, rescue, infrastructure, social services, etc. is Socialism … Republican way is to think of everything as Capitalism but the reality is every one of these services are Social.




Just go one more step: property titles. Without them, we would have difficulty establishing who owns what, which, although fundamental to our perception of hat capitalism is, are nonetheless a social service. Without titles, we would have to hire ruffians to keep people off what we have claimed as our personal territory, from using our inventions and art freely as our own.

When you look closely, the line between "socialism" and "capitalism" can be discerned as … a phantasm.


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> It may be some "ism" but since he is not a dictator and did not use violent force, it is not by definition, Fascism.
> 
> That is why called everyone right of center a Fascist is losing its meaning.  And impact.  But by all means, keep it up.  It is going to help so much at the polls in 2 weeks.



I would hope we can agree there are many nuanced shades of grey between the absolutism implied by labels. I think your claim that everyone right of center is being branded a fascist isn't accurate, but the ones who declare any election they don't win rigged and invalid (the old heads I win, tails you lose gambit), call the people who attacked the Capitol heroes, or support authoritarian policies deserve the moniker.

Personally, I don't believe this applies to the majority of Republican politicians, but there are far too many of them with a good chance of being elected or attaining positions of power to not be highly concerned. What's especially galling is that the Republican party hasn't put forth any meaningful legislation to address issues like climate change or healthcare inequality. Their plan, if they take the House or Senate, is to be as disruptive as possible to the Biden administration. And, if they win both chambers, to try to reverse all the beneficial legislation passed over the past two years. Hence their promotion of candidates like Walker in Georgia who in saner times would never have been considered a serious candidate.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

It’s being reported that the economy expanded and Democrats should brag about the growth. I don’t think voters are going to give a shit about that brag when looking at the reality of prices at the pump, grocery store, and housing. I can’t think of a more blatant example of how “the economy” is code for how the rich are doing and little else. This news should probably be seen as a negative for most people as one of the goals of the fed’s interest rate hikes is to get people to stop buying shit. That goal clearly hasn’t happened. Get ready to hand over more interest payments to banks. 

The inherit fatal flaw of capitalism is you can’t both have all the money while you need people to buy your shit.  Probably the best bottom up economic revolution sticking it to the top is to mass max out credit and then not pay it back.  Not a hell of a lot they can do if most of the country claims bankruptcy.


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> See, I never said I would pick fascism over socialism.  You all have been calling everyone right of center a fascist for so long it has lost all meaning.
> 
> When I posted that it (fascism) beats socialism it was in jest.   Here is what transpired.
> 
> 
> 
> To which this response was posted:
> 
> 
> 
> And my response was:
> 
> 
> 
> From that point it went off the rails.  My point is if I can be labeled a fascist for liking a certain politician, then it's fair game to label others socialist for who they vote for.  But see, it doesn't mean I like fascism anymore that it means you or anyone else likes socialism.
> 
> But I am up for examples of exactly what fascists things DeSantis *has actually done*.  Or Lake, but since she hasn't ever been elected, I doubt there is much.   I want them to run simply to watch the media's head's explode as both are savage and well prepared.



I think I have pointed out the evils of fascism, and the seeds of what we see in Republican leadership are the kernels of  the Fascist playbook, the diminishment of human and civil rights.

They want their “freedom of religion” but what they mean is the freedom to stamp their Christian beliefs on everyone foreheads, turning the country into a Christian theocracy, and they deny women dominion over their own bodies threatening them and others with jail.

Arguably having adopted the stance of we win, or the election is rigged, and besides lying their asses off at every opportunity, one of the worst is their hostility towards, and schemes against open, free, and fair elections elections because they know that would means they‘d be out of the leadership game.

This is how it starts. Cheat to win, profess a belief in laws and belief in the foundations the country was built on, while undermining laws that ensure equal rights, restricting the ability to vote for the demographics who disagree with you. Embracing racist groups because they embrace your racist policies and support of white Supremacy, and toxic Nationalism.

Another shocking issue is how a giant POS like Donald Trump brought out all the cockroaches living among us, how the definition  of Patriotism was been twisted until it is unrecognizable to fool STUPID, and how the GOP converted from our number one Russia critics into Vlad lovers, but I am digressing.

Anyway, if you are trolling when you say fascism beats socialism, then expect the reaction you got. If serious then it does mean you’d prefer facism over socialism, and the reasonable assumption would be, between the two, that you’d pick what you prefer.


----------



## Huntn

Roller said:


> I would hope we can agree there are many nuanced shades of grey between the absolutism implied by labels. I think your claim that everyone right of center is being branded a fascist isn't accurate, but the ones who declare any election they don't win rigged and invalid (the old heads I win, tails you lose gambit), call the people who attacked the Capitol heroes, or support authoritarian policies deserve the moniker.
> 
> Personally, I don't believe this applies to the majority of Republican politicians, but there are far too many of them with a good chance of being elected or attaining positions of power to not be highly concerned. What's especially galling is that the Republican party hasn't put forth any meaningful legislation to address issues like climate change or healthcare inequality. Their plan, if they take the House or Senate, is to be as disruptive as possible to the Biden administration. And, if they win both chambers, to try to reverse all the beneficial legislation passed over the past two years. Hence their promotion of candidates like Walker in Georgia who in saner times would never have been considered a serious candidate.



I’d say the Bad Apples are at the wheel in the GOP and the rest are too afraid of being primaried from STUPID back home. The result is that the Republican brand of corruption and malfeasance rules.

This list, I don’t know how Congresswoman Greene is not on it:




__





						The 10 Worst Republican House Members In The 116th Congress - The Progressive Professor
					

There are a total of 198 Republican members of the House of Representatives, and it is nearly impossible to know all, or most of them, in detail as to their statements and actions. Some, however, stand out, based on their public record and news coverage, as the absolute worst, most disgraceful...



					www.theprogressiveprofessor.com


----------



## Herdfan

Huntn said:


> I’d say the Bad Apples are at the wheel in the GOP and the rest are too afraid of being primaried from STUPID back home.




I would say the exact same thing about the Dems.


----------



## shadow puppet

Huntn said:


> I’d say the Bad Apples are at the wheel in the GOP and the rest are too afraid of being primaried from STUPID back home. The result is that the Republican brand of corruption and malfeasance rules.
> 
> This list, I don’t know how *Congresswoman Greene* is not on it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 10 Worst Republican House Members In The 116th Congress - The Progressive Professor
> 
> 
> There are a total of 198 Republican members of the House of Representatives, and it is nearly impossible to know all, or most of them, in detail as to their statements and actions. Some, however, stand out, based on their public record and news coverage, as the absolute worst, most disgraceful...
> 
> 
> 
> www.theprogressiveprofessor.com



I read somewhere this morning about MTG might be our next VP.  I wanted to vomit.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> I would say the exact same thing about the Dems.





I hope with that you are leaning more towards Pelosi and crew and not the squad.  The squad is pathetically ineffectual.  Just this week the progressives sent Biden a letter urging him to try to look into other options to find a ceasefire in Ukraine other than bombing the shit out of Putin and causing a nuclear war and the warhawks (of both parties) got so outraged by this suggestion that hours later they apologized and took it back.    

The biggest attraction to Trumpism is often stated as leaders willing to fight for them.  Take note, Democrats.  Quit being a monument to bending over and capitulating because you want everybody to like you.


----------



## lizkat

Somethin' ya don't see every day:   LIz Cheney on the hustings for a Democrat.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1585689099368792077/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> Yes. It is. Funding police, schools, fire, rescue, infrastructure, social services, etc. is Socialism. Watching Republicans trying to split hairs on things they support or don't to try and squirm heir way around this is frustrating (and a bit laughable at times).
> 
> The Republican way is to think of everything as Capitalism but the reality is every one of these services are Social. It's the difference between private school and public school, one is for profit and the other is socialized for children who could never afford it otherwise.
> 
> Without these services, which again ARE social, we wouldn't have any infrastructure, an equitable education system, a military, or any of that stuff. Capitalism serves the rich in a fallible system, Socialism serves everyone else and cleans up when Capitalism fails and needs all their bailouts.




Without social services, many people who do well - anti-socialism conservatives included - would be digging in the dumpster for their dinner, regardless of brains, integrity or work ethic. How many conservatives who brag about their bootstrap story went to public schools? Probably a good portion. They don’t all come from cushy private schools.

When a tornado, hurricane, fire or other disaster tears through a conservative town, you can bet your ass they want that socialism to rebuild their lives ASAP.

For many, they don’t see themselves taking taxpayer-funded government aid as socialism. They only see it as socialism when someone they don’t like - usually someone with darker skin than them - gets that same help. There’s probably about 50 videos on YouTube of unemployed southerners on food stamps. unemployment benefits and Medicare/Medicaid deriding socialism before admitting they're gladly helping themselves to the same services.


----------



## lizkat

Roller said:


> I would hope we can agree there are many nuanced shades of grey between the absolutism implied by labels. I think your claim that everyone right of center is being branded a fascist isn't accurate, but the ones who declare any election they don't win rigged and invalid (the old heads I win, tails you lose gambit), call the people who attacked the Capitol heroes, or support authoritarian policies deserve the moniker.
> 
> Personally, I don't believe this applies to the majority of Republican politicians, but there are far too many of them with a good chance of being elected or attaining positions of power to not be highly concerned. What's especially galling is that the Republican party hasn't put forth any meaningful legislation to address issues like climate change or healthcare inequality. Their plan, if they take the House or Senate, is to be as disruptive as possible to the Biden administration. And, if they win both chambers, to try to reverse all the beneficial legislation passed over the past two years. Hence their promotion of candidates like Walker in Georgia who in saner times would never have been considered a serious candidate.




The pro-Trump Rs are basically adopting the position of the New Right regarding establishment of "party as state".    It's not initially just about specific policy but about simply gaining the power to define, expand or dismiss the rules of the road --  not so much any more about getting the courts to interpret rule of law in a particular manner. 

The pesky media though, gee...   what to do, what to do.  Usually dictators start by trying to discredit traditional journalistic practices and seek to become the One True Voice.   Hasn't worked out so well in the USA,  even if Fox and OAN and a zillion trolls on social media keep trying.   That failure has slowed down the power grab somewhat, because so much of its mechanics are still being reported.

 It's a problem the New Right proposes to settle on the campaign trail (and then in office as well)  by just flat out nonstop lying and projection.   It all sounds preposterous if you're not in their bubble.  I mean some of the candidates come off like they're acting in a remake of Alice in Wonderland.  But then so do some of the voters --and some of the pollwatchers and countinghouse officials--  and that's what has been and remains so alarming ever since 2020.  

It's worse now with some "red states" having made it simpler to decline to certify unwanted election results in future.   I don't like all the hyperventilating about how 2022 is the last chance for democracy,  but the Republicans do seem to have tipped their hand regarding intention to declare victory no matter if coming up short on popular support at the polls. 

Have to hope the majority of judges and justices in our courts now can still read the Constitution as currently amended, at least until 34 states decide to call a convention and rewrite the thing.  We may have a little longer past 2022 on that score, although 30 states' legislatures are in GOP control at this time.   That too is alarming.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

The issues Americans are Googling two weeks from the midterms
					

A few key issues like firearms and student loan forgiveness are grabbing new attention.




					www.axios.com
				




It appears people aren’t exactly top searching the topics the news media is instructing them that they are most concerned about.. come on, people!  At least their attempt to manufacture voting horse races seems to be working.  Can’t have a clear winner no matter how absurdly unqualified a candidate might be.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> I want them to run simply to watch the media's head's explode as both are savage and well prepared.



This is how we got TFG. It’s time for everyone to want what’s best for the country, and not what makes the greatest entertainment. SMDH


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> This is how we got TFG. It’s time for everyone to want what’s best for the country, and not what makes the greatest entertainment. SMDH




Maybe if we had an honest media this wouldn't be needed.  But we don't.

Trump exaggerates the size of a crowd at his rallies and the media jumps on his "lies".  Biden says that gas was over $5 when he took office (It was actually $2.39) and just crickets from the media.


----------



## shadow puppet

Herdfan said:


> Biden says that gas was over $5 when he took office (It was actually $2.39) and just crickets from the media.



$2.39?!!  Not where I live.  LMAO.


----------



## Edd

Herdfan said:


> Maybe if we had an honest media this wouldn't be needed.  But we don't.
> 
> Trump exaggerates the size of a crowd at his rallies and the media jumps on his "lies".  Biden says that gas was over $5 when he took office (It was actually $2.39) and just crickets from the media.



I estimate Trump lies 150x more than Biden, if I were trying to quantify this false equivalency.


----------



## Herdfan

shadow puppet said:


> $2.39?!!  Not where I live.  LMAO.




That is the EIA average for the country.  



			https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=EMM_EPMR_PTE_NUS_DPG&f=W


----------



## Herdfan

Edd said:


> I estimate Trump lies 150x more than Biden, if I were trying to quantify this false equivalency.




Which misses the point.  Biden lies and the media ignores it.  Trump has nothing to do with the media coverage of Biden. 

If your kid came home and told a lie to your face, would you care if one of the other kids told more lies to his parents?  Probably not.


----------



## Edd

Herdfan said:


> Which misses the point.  Biden lies and the media ignores it.  Trump has nothing to do with the media coverage of Biden.
> 
> If your kid came home and told a lie to your face, would you care if one of the other kids told more lies to his parents?  Probably not.



Trump makes it impossible to ignore, comparatively. He’s a compulsive liar and that’s newsworthy because he was the president. It’s newsworthy that he’s an aspiring dictator, I swear. It’s newsworthy that he’s a sociopath.


----------



## shadow puppet

Herdfan said:


> That is the EIA average for the country.



You didn't list that in the quote I replied to.


----------



## lizkat

Every time I swear to ignore the horse-race aspects and the polls I eventually forget I've done that and click into FiveThirtyEight and then end up wanting to slit my wrists over D prospects for the midterms.



> Unlike in the Senate, Democrats will have to do more than just win the majority of toss-up races to control the House. In fact, there are now 219 seats that our model rates as lean Republican, likely Republican or solid Republican, one more than the 218 needed for a majority. So even if Democrats won _all_ the toss-ups, it wouldn’t quite be enough. To keep the House, Democrats will need for our model to be systematically underestimating them.




Meanwhile what "our model" in the above quote translates to, at the moment,  is that FiveThirtyEight gives the Dems only a 19 in 100 chance of keeping the gavel...  and his column today was talking about trying to quantify chances of their having *underestimated* (again) Republican prospects...

Well I'm happy the first World Series game is tonight.  When I ordered groceries today, it seems that I fell off the potato chip wagon    so I'm going to munch my way past both my regret for having stumbled into FiveThirtyEight today,  and any possible missteps by the Phillies as they take on the Astros in Texas tonight.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> Trump exaggerates the size of a crowd at his rallies and the media jumps on his "lies". Biden says that gas was over $5 when he took office (It was actually $2.39) and just crickets from the media.












						Fact check: Biden falsely claims the most common gas price was over $5 when he took office | CNN Politics
					

President Joe Biden has made another false claim about gas prices.




					www.cnn.com
				












						Biden Falsely Claims Gas Prices Were 'Over $5' When He Took Office
					

Biden added that the national average for U.S. gas prices was $3.39 as of late October 2022, which also was false.




					www.snopes.com
				












						PolitiFact - Gas prices hit $5 a gallon more than a year after Joe Biden took office, not when he was inaugurated
					

High gasoline prices have been a political challenge for President Joe Biden and Democrats in this midterm election year




					www.politifact.com
				












						Biden says the price of gas was 'over five dollars' when he took office, data shows it was $2.39
					

President Biden said that the price of gasoline was “over five dollars” when he first took office in January 2021, but the actual price was less than half of what he claimed.




					www.foxbusiness.com
				












						Biden falsely says the price of gas was $5 when he took office
					

President Joe Biden misstated the average price per gallon at a speech in Syracuse, then said inaccurately it was $5 a gallon when he took office.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				












						Biden claims gallon of gas typically cost $5 when he took office
					

President Biden on Thursday misstated the typical cost of gas in America when he took office, claiming it was twice what the average price was.




					www.washingtontimes.com
				








__





						Loading…
					





					www.realclearpolitics.com
				












						Biden Claims Gas Price Was $5 When He Became President; It Was $2.39
					

"Today, the most common price of gas in America is $3.39, down from over $5 when I took office," Biden said.




					www.ibtimes.com
				












						Fact check: Viral image does not show gas prices the day Biden took office
					

A regular gallon of gas wasn't below $2 the day Biden took office, and presidents have little influence over fuel costs, contrary to one viral post.



					www.usatoday.com
				




...hell, you get the idea. Yeah, the media never said a word about Biden's lie, so long as you just listened to your friends talk about how biased the media is, and didn't take 5 seconds to look it up yourself.

Though another major differentiator to visibility between Trump and Biden is that Biden boldly lies once, gets called out, then will likely never say it again, while Trump tends to double down and endlessly repeat the lies he gets caught over. So while this is a big deal now, we'll all have forgotten about it in a week, while with Trump, we'd eventually hear that gas was actually $10 when he took office, and the fake news doesn't want you to know the truth about how bigly he's driven down prices.


----------



## lizkat

Renzatic said:


> Though another major differentiator to visibility between Trump and Biden is that Biden boldly lies once, gets called out, then will likely never say it again, while Trump tends to double down and endlessly repeat the lies he gets caught over.




But but but see when Biden lies, it's special, *it's a countable lie uttered by a demon Democrat*.   Those are worth their weight in gold...  at least to Republicans.

Trump on the other hand has lied so many times even God doesn't keep track any more.  Once that counter hits all 9s it just jams and you're done, although it may look like you're getting a free ride until that interview at the Pearly Gates and whammo, there's that pesky maxed-out jammed lie counter...


----------



## Renzatic

lizkat said:


> …although it may look like you're getting a free ride until that interview at the Pearly Gates and whammo, there's that pesky maxed-out jammed lie counter...




I think Ike Saint Pete will give Trump a pass, considering how hard he owned those baby murdering democrats.

Cuz, come on, we all know good deeds don’t do shit for getting you into heaven.


----------



## lizkat

Renzatic said:


> I think Ike Saint Pete will give Trump a pass, considering how hard he owned those baby murdering democrats.
> 
> Cuz, come on, we all know good deeds don’t do shit for getting you into heaven.




Depends on which god(s) of which denomination of which religions are in charge of the gate on the day one's number comes up....  St.Pete takes orders from whoever has the key to the lightning bolt codes that day.


----------



## Herdfan

Renzatic said:


> Fact check: Biden falsely claims the most common gas price was over $5 when he took office | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> President Joe Biden has made another false claim about gas prices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biden Falsely Claims Gas Prices Were 'Over $5' When He Took Office
> 
> 
> Biden added that the national average for U.S. gas prices was $3.39 as of late October 2022, which also was false.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PolitiFact - Gas prices hit $5 a gallon more than a year after Joe Biden took office, not when he was inaugurated
> 
> 
> High gasoline prices have been a political challenge for President Joe Biden and Democrats in this midterm election year
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politifact.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...hell, you get the idea. Yeah, the media never said a word about Biden's lie, so long as you just listened to your friends talk about how biased the media is, and didn't take 5 seconds to look it up yourself.
> 
> Though another major differentiator to visibility between Trump and Biden is that Biden boldly lies once, gets called out, then will likely never say it again, while Trump tends to double down and endlessly repeat the lies he gets caught over. So while this is a big deal now, we'll all have forgotten about it in a week, while with Trump, we'd eventually hear that gas was actually $10 when he took office, and the fake news doesn't want you to know the truth about how bigly he's driven down prices.




Thanks for the links.  Of the top 3, only Snopes had it on its front page.  You had to search for it on CNN and Politico.  So it seems they write the article and simply don't put it where most of their casual viewers can see it.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Politico




Yeah, well Politico been done gone slippin' to the right a bit lately so...  they are no longer sure who the heck their readership is, else I wouldn't occasionally now find myself glancing up at the URL to see if I'm actually still reading their stuff. 

But, you could be right.


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> I would say the exact same thing about the Dems.



Damn it, sure you would, you’re in full blown GOP defense mode. They are_ both the same, but I’m voting for Poison for President. _They are_ no worse than the clearly worse Democrats.   _

We will, collectively deserve what we get because of our terrible choices. You won’t be able to escape it,


----------



## lizkat

Huntn said:


> We will, collectively deserve what we get because of our terrible choices. You won’t be able to escape it




I am a bit alarmed over having run into a few quotes from Democrats who said they voted early and WROTE IN a candidate because tired of voting for Dems they dislike (for whatever reason be it policy or personality).  

Yeah it's a voter's perfect right (although in some states depending on the law, your write in for a particular slot may not end up counted) to write in a choice instead of choosing between or among named candidates on the ballot, but...   for Dems,  this might be one of the less great times to decide to help the Rs win an election by writing in a non starter like your Aunt Louise.

Same with what I think about voting 3rd party this year, unless in a state with fusion tickets, like in NY where Dems will often run on the Dem line and on the Working Familes Party line as well.

If you lean to the Dems but you don't get out there and vote for a Democrat in the House (and Senate, if your state has a Senate race in 2022),  then you have not thought out what the negative effect on your life may be when a Republican you voted for may represent a flip of not only that seat but of one or both houses of Congress. 

All said and done though, you are right in your post.  We are entitled to vote as we see fit, even if our view was somehow warped and we end up voting against our own rationally viewed interests. Collectively we'll deserve what we get, even if some of us worked harder than others to try to get Americans to think their vote through in 2022, and to want our votes to help preserve actual will of the people in election outcomes and in governance.   The Republicans have made it clear they just mean to win, whether or not the votes go that way.  Democrats need to turn out and vote for the  Democratic Party candidates for Congress in 2022, clothespin on nose or no.

Sigh...  still, one can lead a horse to water, but not make it drink.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> Which misses the point.  Biden lies and the media ignores it.  Trump has nothing to do with the media coverage of Biden.
> 
> If your kid came home and told a lie to your face, would you care if one of the other kids told more lies to his parents?  Probably not.




I’m listening to the book Profiles in Ignorance which tells the journey from ridiculing ignorant politicians to celebrating them.  It focuses almost exclusively on Republicans but the author notes as soon as Democrat ignorance rises to the level of starting trillion dollar wars, contributing to a million people dying from a public health issue, and inspiring people to attempt to overthrow the government they’ll make sure to write a book about it.  

I was too young to marvel at the ignorance of Reagan but he really was top notch, famously misquoting people, what was said or who said it, just pulling "facts" out of his ass, and pretty much waged a war against educated people his entire political career. As the author put it, he had about as much to do with the fall of the Soviet Union as he had to do with the fall of disco.  Even by his standards you can’t both claim a system is doomed to failure and then take credit for when that failure happens.  A good part of his mythology is based on characters he played in movies and not his real life.  Given all that it’s no surprise Trump became the leader of the party. 

A lot of the Republican establishment was originally horrified by Reagan’s ignorance in his presidential run but between his acting experience and gifted handlers (and shit economy, familiar?) they were able to claim victory and has become their blueprint ever since. As long as Republican’s keep thier heads wedged up Reagan’s ass and Democrats up Clinton’s most of us are screwed.


----------



## lizkat

DT said:


> Did you see the  reports on the fuckwits hanging around near the voting dropbox in Mesa, AZ?  Filming people's tags, etc., their own faces covered up, a couple had weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Election officials say armed "vigilantes" watching over ballot drop box in Mesa, Arizona
> 
> 
> Two voters have filed complaints of voter intimidation to the Arizona state secretary in the past few days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.axios.com




DoJ has now filed a statement of interest in a court case about the Arizona dropbox "watchers."









						Feds concerned about armed people at Arizona ballot boxes
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — Reports of people watching ballot boxes in Arizona, sometimes armed or wearing ballistic vests, raise serious concerns about voter intimidation, the Justice Department said Monday as it stepped into a lawsuit over the monitoring.




					apnews.com
				






> Threats, intimidation and coercion are illegal under the federal Voting Rights Act, even if they doesn’t succeed, the government’s attorneys wrote. While lawful poll watching can support transparency, “ballot security forces” present a significant risk of voter intimidation, the court documents state.
> 
> “While the First Amendment protects expressive conduct and peaceable assembly generally, it affords no protection for threats of harm directed at voters,” U.S. government attorneys wrote.






> The filing runs counter to a judge’s order Friday. U.S. District Court Judge Michael Liburdi found the allegations present “serious questions” but it wasn’t clear they were a ”true threat” to specific people or groups and barring them could violate the watchers’ freedom of speech.
> 
> Liburdi is a Trump appointee and a member of the Federalist Society, a conservative legal organization.






> The Arizona Alliance for Retired Americans is appealing the order in the swing state with several closely contested races this year.
> 
> The group sued a group calling itself Clean Elections USA after reports that people were watching 24-hour ballot boxes in Maricopa County, including some who were masked and armed. A separate suit was filed in rural Yavapai County, where the League of Women Voters alleges voters have been intimidated by three groups, including one associated with the far-right anti-government group Oath Keepers.
> 
> The two cases were merged and the Justice Department filed a statement of interest Monday. Attorneys for Clean Elections USA did not immediately respond to a message seeking comment.


----------



## Huntn

DT said:


> Did you see the  reports on the fuckwits hanging around near the voting dropbox in Mesa, AZ?  Filming people's tags, etc., their own faces covered up, a couple had weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Election officials say armed "vigilantes" watching over ballot drop box in Mesa, Arizona
> 
> 
> Two voters have filed complaints of voter intimidation to the Arizona state secretary in the past few days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.axios.com



Are they being allowed inside? I‘m not condoning this, nor am I saying it is right or legal, but if they are out on the street I’ll question how intimidating this actually is other than making people nervous.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> Are they being allowed inside? I‘m not condoning this, nor am I saying it is right or legal, but if they are out on the street I’ll question how intimidating this actually is other than making people nervous.




If I was going grocery shopping and as I pulled up I noticed some armed masked men meandering around the parking lot I'd probably keep driving.  Just sayin.


----------



## lizkat

Huntn said:


> Are they being allowed inside? I‘m not condoning this, nor am I saying it is right or legal, but if they are out on the street I’ll question how intimidating this actually is other than making people nervous.




Why on earth should one have to feel NERVOUS about showing up to cast a ballot in the USA?


----------



## Herdfan

Huntn said:


> Are they being allowed inside?




There isn’t an “inside” as far as I have seen. The ballot drop boxes are outside. 

That said, they shouldn’t be armed even if it is legal. I have no issue with them watching the drop boxes, but being armed is too far even for me. 

———————

Also looks like PA is going to be forced to follow the law. 









						Pa. Supreme Court orders counties to set aside undated and wrongly dated mail ballots and not count them
					

Pennsylvania counties must set aside and not count mail ballots with missing or incorrect dates, the state Supreme Court said Tuesday.




					www.inquirer.com


----------



## Herdfan

Did anyone see the new Cook Report?

Not good news for Dems.  It’s behind a paywall but there is a little bit you can read. 









						House Rating Changes: 10 More Blue Districts Move in GOP's Direction
					

The scariest Halloween reality for House Democrats is the number of seats President Biden carried comfortably in 2020 that are at genuine risk a week out. And if you're looking for House upsets, the best places to watch might be blue states where there's no competitive statewide races driving...




					www.cookpolitical.com
				




The problem for Dems is not so much they could lose some of these races, although the NY Governor’s race is one they could actually lose, but with the momentum shift towards the GOP, they are going to have to move money to formerly safe seats and away from other  toss-up seats.


----------



## shadow puppet

As usual, Marc Elias nails it.  The GOP will do anything they can to ensure the Dems lose.


> The GOP no longer presents voter suppression and election subversion with a wink and a nod. It enthusiastically embraces these anti-democratic tactics.












						The GOP: Breaking Our Democracy One State at a Time
					

From Marc | What happens now, when one political party wants our electoral system to break?




					www.democracydocket.com


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Did anyone see the new Cook Report?
> 
> Not good news for Dems.  It’s behind a paywall but there is a little bit you can read.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House Rating Changes: 10 More Blue Districts Move in GOP's Direction
> 
> 
> The scariest Halloween reality for House Democrats is the number of seats President Biden carried comfortably in 2020 that are at genuine risk a week out. And if you're looking for House upsets, the best places to watch might be blue states where there's no competitive statewide races driving...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cookpolitical.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem for Dems is not so much they could lose some of these races, although the NY Governor’s race is one they could actually lose, but with the momentum shift towards the GOP, they are going to have to move money to formerly safe seats and away from other  toss-up seats.




It's getting late to move money at this point, except for get-out-the-vote category.  What the Ds are moving though is high profile Democrats in lieu of the unpopular Biden.    Bill Clinton is making some appearances in NY State this week, for instance.   Obama is also still very popular and has been out on the stump in key races.


----------



## lizkat

Man these anti-democratic Republicans never give up, even when votes have already been processed. 

Some R county judge in New York State brought suit quite late in the season against early processing of absentee ballots.  In New York, that is done to prevent election results ending up in limbo for weeks. The challenge is making its way through the appeals process. 

One judge has already remarked on the late-to-plate maneuver:



> *The early review challenge was bought in late September, about nine months after the law was enacted.* Judges asked plaintiffs’ attorneys why they waited until it was close the Nov. 8 election to challenge it.
> 
> “Where have you been?” Justice John Egan asked Ciampoli. “Here we are a week before the election. There’s a whole lot of absentee ballots that have been cast by now.”












						Appeals court mulls late challenge to NY absentee ballot law - New York Amsterdam News
					

State appeals court judges pressed attorneys for Republicans on Tuesday over why new absentee ballot rules in New York should be rejected with Election Day looming and more than 550,000 of the ballots already sent out.




					amsterdamnews.com


----------



## Citysnaps

A shame Michelle Obama isn't interested in running. Princeton University, Harvard Law, super intelligent, and she comes with a trusted advisor who has tons of domestic and foreign policy experience. 

Sadly, I suspect it would give many in the country a major case of the shakes, resulting in ugliness ramped up to 11.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> The establishment Democrats got exactly what they asked for in a Biden presidency and they will be punished appropriately as a result.
> 
> It's one thing to lose to Trump and his minions when they were untested. It takes a special level of incompetence to lose to them after they've proven who they are.
> 
> To make things worse, the Democrats have absolutely no Plan B to Biden in sight. Nobody to get excited about.




I know I"m replying to a really old post here, but it's striking how we're a week from the midterms and the post quoted above could have been made this afternoon. 

Not sure what's with the Dems any more,  they are playing below their weight and have done ever since they won the damn 2020 election.   There's a talented bench there,  but they are not being utilized.  Makes me crazy. 

I don't think "inflation and crime and immigration" alone can account for why the Dems stand to lose the House and maybe even the Senate. 

Dems have won against those fear mongering mantras (and, facts - regarding inflation)  in the past.   

It's like this time around they're just flummoxed by all the noise and hate.  Whatever their message on accomplishments may be,  it's not getting through, and that's too bad because the legislation that has been passed is already having a positive effect on the economy despite inflation and the pressure of the Fed to rein it in.  Also, some of the things the Rs are pegging away at are not high on the list of American concerns (immigration, for instance, is not a top 3 or even top 10 item).  And yet the chances of the Ds retaining the House keep sinking if one believes the polls.

 We are resilient as a people,  but the Republicans are still trying to bring us all down by fear mongering cherrypicked problems and providing ZERO suggestions on how to resolve them.   Some ads don't even suggest voting for Republicans, just recite the "inflation, crime, immigration" anti-Dem theme.


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> I don't think "inflation and crime and immigration" alone can account for why the Dems stand to lose the House and maybe even the Senate



Then what?

Roe got some traction early, but it seems to have moderated. 

Jan 6?  Polls show people don’t care. Sure it will fire up the hardcores and get them out to vote. But most people don’t care. Especially if the can’t afford to feed their family. 

So you doubt inflation?  Have you looked at your grocery bill?  Bought your propane for the winter yet?

Inflation is certainly on the voters minds.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Then what?



The need to retain democratic rule.  Stop rolling back civil rights, women's rights, voter's rights...



Herdfan said:


> Inflation is certainly on the voters minds.




Well of course it's on our minds.  SOMETIMES there's INFLATION.  We deal with it and put up with the Fed making us peons deal with the interest rate hikes remedy (not the banks, hey, they pass it on!) as well.  We are consumerists so we whine when we can't have everything we want, or even anything we want at a decent price.   Eventually it passes.  It's not fun.  No one is exempt.  Even the yacht buyers mind find themselves pinched.  For the elderly and poor, real hunger sits at the table.   Life is hard, then ya die.  But people never used to complain so much.  Or let's say all complaining was local and so less oppressive than carrying around an internet's worth of whining in one's head every day.

On groceries,  I resort in times of inflation to a zillion recipes for beans, rice and grains...   and maybe some backyard greens when peppers go for $2 a pop. ​​On propane, yeah, I pre-bought for the season, took 100 gallons less and have yet to turn my heat on,  because through some miracle it's still like a summer morning here when I wake up. Everyone is talking about it around here, it's... bizarre. We're not complaining.​
Anyway it's shortsighted to blame inflation on Joe Biden, especially since the economy is showing resilience despite the hassles with both the residual inflation and the Fed's ongoing rate hike pressure. 

I do really get tired of the ignorance and the danger of voters not realizing the Republicans HAVE NO POLICY short of the ongoing and dreary nihilism of their tax cuts, plus kowtowing to an eminently unfit nominal leader of their party.  The GOP, the RNC literally have no platform.   What is that about?   Not anything of benefit to their base.  Does their base actually just want a strongarm kinda guy in the White House and a rubber stamp Congress?   Because that's what Donald Trump wants.  And he hasn't mentioned wanting anything the average guy on the street craves.   Abortion bans?   Pfffft.  No, and the backlash on that is just beginning.   Protectionist tariffs?   The small manufacturer knows those just drive his materials costs up.  Tax cuts for the wealthy?  Oh wait.  Already did those.  How about for the base?  Well yeah but those are expiring in 2025...

In campaigns we should be debating stuff like how to reduce hostilities vis a vis China, what about the decline of well prepared kids in the K-12 pipeline to the USA's college-educated future,  why do we still have homeless people when we were bulldozing unwanted developments in Nevada as the subprime mortage crisis loomed,  how to convert weapons mania to a fervor for renewable energy investment, how to make a U-turn on the rhetoric of political violence...   but instead we're still running around accusing each other of bad behavior in past and FUTURE elections!


----------



## Edd

Hoping polls are wrong right now although I was actually polled for the first time. I was driving home from work and it was a miracle I answered an unknown number, like a 1 in a 100 shot.


----------



## Huntn

lizkat said:


> Why on earth should one have to feel NERVOUS about showing up to cast a ballot in the USA?



My original point is that if these people are trying to intimidate certain voters, how intimidating is it if you are voting a secret ballot? However,  If the intent is scaring people away from the polls or at a minimum, _we are watching you, _then it should be illegal and it would be easy to make this distinction, guns on display. This is different than the tents set up outside the polling place with candidate propaganda.


----------



## Huntn

We early voted yesterday, a nice cool rainy day for Houston. No militia at our voting place.



Herdfan said:


> Did anyone see the new Cook Report?
> 
> Not good news for Dems.  It’s behind a paywall but there is a little bit you can read.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House Rating Changes: 10 More Blue Districts Move in GOP's Direction
> 
> 
> The scariest Halloween reality for House Democrats is the number of seats President Biden carried comfortably in 2020 that are at genuine risk a week out. And if you're looking for House upsets, the best places to watch might be blue states where there's no competitive statewide races driving...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cookpolitical.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem for Dems is not so much they could lose some of these races, although the NY Governor’s race is one they could actually lose, but with the momentum shift towards the GOP, they are going to have to move money to formerly safe seats and away from other  toss-up seats.



At this point in time,  a shift towards the GOP equates to a direct correlation with the deterioration of our society, a move away from democracy and towards fascism.

You might say this is exaggeration but my counter would be that the GOP as an entity supports diminished voter rights, they enact one sided, anti-Democratic policies that keep themselves in power, they manufacture, the word is “lie“ or if you prefer “cheat” to get ahead, and the extremes are saying “we win or it’s rigged” with the idea that any election we don’t win, should not be certified. This  is not uncommon. If the corrupt leadership say it enough, then millions of sheep believe it.

The coercive“Stop The Steal”, is the tinder which this country will burn on. Ironically after all the corrupt players are in place and stealing is really happening, then it will be too late. They will scoff when accused, just like that lieing POS Donny Trump. It’s not beyond the pale in a future GOP controlled county to imagine bag teams working at night  to insure “public safety”.

There is just no way that a majority or even a large minority could drink their brand of poison and the rest of us think, that things are looking up for the USA. If we on the opposite side of the corrupt GOP can‘t count on our votes counting, they have lots of reasons for your vote not to count, where does that leave us as a coherent functional country? We are in deep shit that’s where.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Republicans will spend 2 years investigating every high level Democrat and their families while attacking programs that help the poor and elderly. We know this because they said so. They only care about inflation to campaign on. They have no intention of improving things and their actions will just prove voters were wrong to put them back in control. I say let them dig their own grave.


----------



## rdrr

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Republicans will spend 2 years investigating every high level Democrat and their families while attacking programs that help the poor and elderly. We know this because they said so. They only care about inflation to campaign on. They have no intention of improving things and their actions will just prove voters were wrong to put them back in control. I say let them dig their own grave.



Yes that might be the end of them if they do all those things.  However the damage will be irreparable, and democracy which is currently on life support, will be dead.


----------



## ronntaylor

Reminder of what poll watching is really about. The poll watchers below were in Florida a century ago. Today they're in Arizona and other places where democracy is fragile.









						Nov. 2, 1920: The Ocoee Massacre - Zinn Education Project
					

More than 50 African Americans killed in the Ocoee Massacre after going to vote in Florida.




					www.zinnedproject.org


----------



## Herdfan

Huntn said:


> My original point is that if these people are trying to intimidate certain voters, how intimidating is it if you are voting a secret ballot? Hosever,  If the intent is scaring people away from the polls or at a minimum, _we are watching you, _then it should be illegal and it would be easy to make this distinction, guns on display. This is different than the tents set up outside the polling place with candidate propaganda.



I don’t think it is about intimidating individual voters, but about intimidating those who are dropping off scores of ballots.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> I don’t think it is about intimidating individual voters, but about intimidating *those who are dropping off scores of ballots.*




How widespread is that? And where are these "scores of ballots" coming from? How many scores? Is that _*systematically*_ done to the extent it can change an election?

Are those scores of ballots
• Stolen out of peoples' mailboxes in mass without being caught, and then
• Marked by someone wanting to see a particular candidate win, and then
• Signed using the signatures from the people they were stolen from (how do they accomplish that?), and then
• Delivered to a public drop-box?

• What happens when someone who has their ballot stolen requests a replacement and then votes? Surly the local registrar of voters will see a lot of duplicate ballots and raise an alarm.

Or....?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Citysnaps said:


> How widespread is that? And where are these "scores of ballots" coming from? How many scores? Is that _*systematically*_ done to the extent it can change an election?
> 
> Are those scores of ballots
> • Stolen out of peoples' mailboxes in mass without being caught, and then
> • Marked by someone wanting to see a particular candidate win, and then
> • Signed using the signatures from the people they were stolen from (how do they accomplish that?), and then
> • Delivered to a public drop-box?
> 
> • What happens when someone who has their ballot stolen requests a replacement and then votes? Surly the local registrar of voters will see a lot of duplicate ballots and raise an alarm.
> 
> Or....?





I realize that I have superior criminal intellect. If I were to attempt to pull off such a thing I would change the last step to a mailbox, but I know that’s some pretty sophisticated thinking and nobody in voter fraud would ever think of such a thing, especially after pulling off all those other steps you mentioned. There’s some pride in dumping them in a location that is most likely being surveilled.


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> I don’t think it is about intimidating individual voters, but about intimidating those who are dropping off scores of ballots.



Nice to hear that everyone here agrees that it is about intimidation.


----------



## ronntaylor

Citysnaps said:


> And where are these "scores of ballots" coming from?



It's coming from Pulleditoutmybuttstan


----------



## ronntaylor

Intimidation is a baby step. Let's see what happens with less than a week to go as Democrats are harassed and even assaulted









						Candidate for Fayette Pa. House seat assaulted amid warnings about election-related threats and violence
					

A candidate running for a state House seat called 911 Monday morning after being assaulted at his Fayette County home in what would be the third time in...




					www.post-gazette.com
				






> Taken together, Mr. Ringer said he can’t help but be suspicious that the three incidents within three weeks of the general election are related to his candidacy, especially considering how “calm and quiet a neighborhood” it is.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I’d also like somebody to explain which part of putting an envelope a in box on public property necessitates a possible response of deadly force. Maybe one of the many 2nd amendment scholars can explain that to me. 

Sure, if you're a cop that's a pretty standard scenario to unload your firearm.  It involves somebody doing something with their arms and hands which is always a highly dangerous situation.  But we're talking standard-issue patriots here.  I'm fairly confident they don't have the years of training required to handle a person putting envelopes in a box scenario.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Jordan sends letters to DOJ and FBI previewing what GOP controlled House Judiciary Committee would investigate | CNN Politics
					

GOP Rep. Jim Jordan of Ohio, who serves as ranking Republican member of the House Judiciary Committee, put the Department of Justice and FBI on notice Wednesday in letters detailing potential investigations if Republicans reclaim the House majority and he is given the powerful gavel of the...




					www.cnn.com
				




2 years of this and nothing but this.  But hey, inflation kind of sounds like investigation. So you can see the confusion.  Anyhow, they’ll have their hands full with that. Don’t expect anything else.  

But don’t worry.  The fed promises to continue to make things worse regardless of which party has control. There’s comfort in consistency.


----------



## Edd

I liked Biden’s speech.


----------



## shadow puppet

Love this tweet.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1585350404124336128/


----------



## Herdfan

Citysnaps said:


> How widespread is that? And where are these "scores of ballots" coming from? How many scores? Is that _*systematically*_ done to the extent it can change an election?
> 
> Are those scores of ballots
> • Stolen out of peoples' mailboxes in mass without being caught, and then
> • Marked by someone wanting to see a particular candidate win, and then
> • Signed using the signatures from the people they were stolen from (how do they accomplish that?), and then
> • Delivered to a public drop-box?
> 
> • What happens when someone who has their ballot stolen requests a replacement and then votes? Surly the local registrar of voters will see a lot of duplicate ballots and raise an alarm.
> 
> Or....?




Look, I know the film 2000 Mules has its issues. I get that. But there is video in it where people are walking up to drop boxes with handfuls of ballots.  

Where they came from I have no idea, but ballot harvesting is illegal in AZ. 

And FYI, both AZ and GA require 24/7 cameras on drop boxes.


----------



## Herdfan

ronntaylor said:


> Intimidation is a baby step.



We’re you OK with what happened in Philly in 2008?


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> Anyway it's shortsighted to blame inflation on Joe Biden, especially since the economy is showing resilience despite the hassles with both the residual inflation and the Fed's ongoing rate hike pressure.




Ok, let says Biden shouldn’t be blamed for inflation, although some economists  point to trillions in spending as being the cause. 

But what about the border?  He is certainly responsible for that. There are things he could do to secure it better than it is. 

And then there is crime. While Biden may not be responsible as President, the Dems with their No-cash bail and other progressive policies are having negative effects on public safety and the people will vote against those and the party of those responsible.


----------



## Yoused

Tim Michels says that if he is elected Governor, no Republican will ever lose a race in Wisconsin.

Backtracking,
*… the Michels campaign denied the audio had anything to do with election integrity. Rather, the campaign said, Michels would garner more support for Republican candidates in the state by implementing "lower taxes, better schools, uniform election laws and safer communities."*​


----------



## ronntaylor

Herdfan said:


> We’re you OK with what happened in Philly in 2008?



You spout so much bullshit and then walk away when challenged. I have no idea what you're referencing and if your history holds true, neither do you.


----------



## Cmaier

ronntaylor said:


> You spout so much bullshit and then walk away when challenged. I have no idea what you're referencing and if your history holds true, neither do you.




He‘s probably referring to the case where two members of the New Black Panthers were accused of voter intimidation by wearing “paramilitary” uniforms and yelling things? One of them allegedly had a billy club.


----------



## Herdfan

Cmaier said:


> He‘s probably referring to the case where two members of the New Black Panthers were accused of voter intimidation by wearing “paramilitary” uniforms and yelling things? One of them allegedly had a billy club.




Yep.

@ronntaylor I guess you only choose to remember things when the right is doing them. 

Not even FoxNews. https://www.inquirer.com/philly/opi..._gnaws_at_nation_s_values.html?outputType=amp


----------



## Alli

Oh gawd! Black men with clubs! That sure scares me more than white men with automatic weapons.

Seriously?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> Where they came from I have no idea, but ballot harvesting is illegal in AZ.




Why? It’s absurd in the same country that in some states a vote can be invalidated or considered a crime just based on how it got to the location. The only defense of this is it sometimes results in a win for the party the defender supports.

This is like if the Democrats proclaimed tens of thousands of people were killed in a mass shooting. They can’t produce even one victim but they can find lots of guns. So it must have happened and then they start confiscating guns because they could have been used to kill the victims nobody can produce.


----------



## AG_PhamD

lizkat said:


> I know I"m replying to a really old post here, but it's striking how we're a week from the midterms and the post quoted above could have been made this afternoon.
> 
> Not sure what's with the Dems any more,  they are playing below their weight and have done ever since they won the damn 2020 election.   There's a talented bench there,  but they are not being utilized.  Makes me crazy.
> 
> I don't think "inflation and crime and immigration" alone can account for why the Dems stand to lose the House and maybe even the Senate.
> 
> Dems have won against those fear mongering mantras (and, facts - regarding inflation)  in the past.
> 
> It's like this time around they're just flummoxed by all the noise and hate.  Whatever their message on accomplishments may be,  it's not getting through, and that's too bad because the legislation that has been passed is already having a positive effect on the economy despite inflation and the pressure of the Fed to rein it in.  Also, some of the things the Rs are pegging away at are not high on the list of American concerns (immigration, for instance, is not a top 3 or even top 10 item).  And yet the chances of the Ds retaining the House keep sinking if one believes the polls.
> 
> We are resilient as a people,  but the Republicans are still trying to bring us all down by fear mongering cherrypicked problems and providing ZERO suggestions on how to resolve them.   Some ads don't even suggest voting for Republicans, just recite the "inflation, crime, immigration" anti-Dem theme.




I don’t think inflation, crime, and immigration are cherry-picked problems.

The economy is one of those issues that automatically affects approval regardless of what the government can actually do to control it. Spending more money certainly doesn’t help. Granted I don’t think the Republicans will necessarily solve that problem. We should all be offended by the name of the “inflation reduction act” though.

Gas prices are largely out of the government’s control. That said, I think more could be done to persuade the Saudis but I think a lot of that situation has to do with Biden’s comments about MBS (all of which are legit, but it’s a complex relationship). And the Biden administration’s stance on the oil industry isn’t helping either. They’re not going to invest if they think in a couple years they’ll be slammed with more regulations. And the future outlook on the industry does affect prices. That said, I’m not sure there’s much republicans will be able to solve anytime soon.

Crime is a serious problem. The statistics show that.  I think it’s fair to say some places crime reform has a lot to do with that, but that’s not all of it. But for the most part this seems like a local issue.

The immigration problem is completely out of hand and truly unsustainable. I think reverting to the remain in Mexico policy would greatly reduce the current influx. Building the wall won’t solve the issue, I’m not sure it’s a great use of money, but it can’t make the problem worse.

I think the problems for the democrats is that they aren’t even pretending to have solutions. Or if they do, it’s buy a $60,000 car that you won’t get for 6 months. In a lot of cases, they don’t seem to even admit there is a problem in the first place. I think it’s fair to say a lot of people think they’re out of touch with day to day concerns of the average American.

Generally speaking I have no more faith in the Republicans except maybe  dealing with the immigration crisis. But they’re at least creating the illusion they’ll fix the problems to persuade voters. Ignoring the concerns or the “it could be worse” attitude doesn’t inspire voters.


----------



## Cmaier

Alli said:


> Oh gawd! Black men with clubs! That sure scares me more than white men with automatic weapons.
> 
> Seriously?




Of course. Black men are inherently scary. Especially when they dress alike.

/s


----------



## Yoused

You know, my state is 100% vote-by-mail. Kind of hard to intimidate voters if there is not a polling place to loiter at. But, the Rs seem to be opposed to vote-by-mail, because …


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Yoused said:


> You know, my state is 100% vote-by-mail. Kind of hard to intimidate voters if there is not a polling place to loiter at. But, the Rs seem to be opposed to vote-by-mail, because …




They won’t be happy until the only way you can vote is by shooting your choices on a ballot from 100 yards at a polling range conveniently located 100 miles from the nearest big city. It’s the only way we can be certain that you voted and are a real American.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

AG_PhamD said:


> Generally speaking I have no more faith in the Republicans except maybe  dealing with the immigration crisis. But they’re at least creating the illusion they’ll fix the problems to persuade voters. Ignoring the concerns or the “it could be worse” attitude doesn’t inspire voters.




How have they said they are going to fix anything?


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> I don’t think it is about intimidating individual voters, but about intimidating those who are dropping off scores of ballots.



How often does that happen exactly? How did you come up this?   Qualifier: It’s as simple as bringing guns to a polling place is a form of intimidation. Maybe they should have a sign posted:

_We are here just to dissuade the cheaters, although we have no idea who among you that would be. We just really, mostly like showing off our guns and the implied power they give us over you._

There is another issue, you bring a gun because either you think you need it to defend yourself, or you plan on using your gun to enforce some belief you have that you have no way of verifying. There is no place for groups of armed individuals at a polling place period.

And all of this is happening because of the Big Fat Peace of Shit who used to be President and all of the co-conspirators, crooks, schemers and anti-Democracy, anti-American low life’s who latched onto him and are capitalizing on his big  lie (the election was stolen), this just one of the millions of lies this man tells as a matter of routine to fool STUPID.*  If Donny has done anything for this country it was to draw the cockroaches out of the woodwork, and show us just how badly we are infested. 

* No I did not just call you a name…


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> How have they said they are going to fix anything?



_Well we have restricted the vote of people you don’t like, that’s a plus; vote for us, we’ll make things better than the evil Democrats ever could, details after the election..._


----------



## Deleted member 215

I mean, both parties are not going to do anything substantial about inflation, gas prices, or immigration (or health care, though that seems to be on the back burner for most now); instead Democrats are going to go on and on about January 6th and Trump's tax returns and Republicans are going to focus on trans kids using the bathroom and act like that's the greatest threat to the suburban white way of life.


----------



## lizkat

AG_PhamD said:


> I don’t think inflation, crime, and immigration are cherry-picked problems.
> 
> The economy is one of those issues that automatically affects approval regardless of what the government can actually do to control it. Spending more money certainly doesn’t help. Granted I don’t think the Republicans will necessarily solve that problem. We should all be offended by the name of the “inflation reduction act” though.
> 
> Gas prices are largely out of the government’s control. That said, I think more could be done to persuade the Saudis but I think a lot of that situation has to do with Biden’s comments about MBS (all of which are legit, but it’s a complex relationship). And the Biden administration’s stance on the oil industry isn’t helping either. They’re not going to invest if they think in a couple years they’ll be slammed with more regulations. And the future outlook on the industry does affect prices. That said, I’m not sure there’s much republicans will be able to solve anytime soon.
> 
> Crime is a serious problem. The statistics show that.  I think it’s fair to say some places crime reform has a lot to do with that, but that’s not all of it. But for the most part this seems like a local issue.
> 
> The immigration problem is completely out of hand and truly unsustainable. I think reverting to the remain in Mexico policy would greatly reduce the current influx. Building the wall won’t solve the issue, I’m not sure it’s a great use of money, but it can’t make the problem worse.
> 
> I think the problems for the democrats is that they aren’t even pretending to have solutions. Or if they do, it’s buy a $60,000 car that you won’t get for 6 months. In a lot of cases, they don’t seem to even admit there is a problem in the first place. I think it’s fair to say a lot of people think they’re out of touch with day to day concerns of the average American.
> 
> Generally speaking I have no more faith in the Republicans except maybe  dealing with the immigration crisis. But they’re at least creating the illusion they’ll fix the problems to persuade voters. Ignoring the concerns or the “it could be worse” attitude doesn’t inspire voters.





I say the Rs have cherrypicked their election themes because it's true.  Voters also care about affordable housing shortages, gun violence, voting rights, LBGTQ+ rights, decline of effective education, health care accessibility including but not limited to abortion rights and availability of OB/GYN care in the era of abortion bans. 

But those concerns haven't the immediacy of stuff like getting mugged again or being short the money to pay for both one's utilities and basic groceries in the house plus gas for the car (since most don't yet have EVs and public transport is largely absent outside urban areas).

So I get why Rs pick crime and inflation.  They're cherrypicked for good reason but my gripe with the Rs is they only pick them for fear mongering and offer no solutions.  The implication is...  no, the insistence is that crime and inflation are all the fault of Democrats in public office.

On immigration, well... overall, Americans actually rate that problem far lower than stuff like housing shortages and gun violence but "immigration" rhymes with CRIME in the Rs' playbook and in certain states that combo sells well.

I'll take the "cherrypicked" problems in reverse order.

Immigration:   we could have had immigration reform locked down during Bush 43 first term, since he was very big on making it happen.   It failed because the Rs liked the issue better (they choose to link "reform" with "amnesty" and so with CRIME),  and the corporations in hospitality and poultry / meat processing -- which give money to pols on _both _sides of the aisle-- still like cheap and eminently disposable labor better than a guest worker program that protects worker rights and provides proper benefits in exchange for properly applied taxation.    If this country actually wanted to deal with immigration better even in the short run then "all they need to do" in Congress is jack up the appropriations for hiring more judges to adjudicate asylum and immigration applications more quickly.  But "all they need to do"  =  not going to happen.   

Crime.    The Rs run ads about it.  They say CRIME is happening.   Yeah.  What is their solution?  Judging from their track record all they do is divert block grants to building more privatized prisons.   They're into punishment, not addressing root causes --poverty, sketchy childcare, poor education-- or amping up programs for prevention or rehabilitation that hook up industry and social service oversight of people re-entering society after serving time.    If the Dems ran ads about crime maybe they'd get a leg up for a change.. and why is that?  Well it's not like Republicans are the ones running programs that do try to provide education, job training, apprenticeship to ex-felons or to people out on parole.    So why are voters drawn in by Rs pitching CRIME as an issue?  I don't know.  Any moron can stand on a corner and complain about crime.  After awhile it's hard not to hope they stand there long enough to get their wallet lifted.  Bottom line we have a "haves versus have-nots"  problem in this country, and it is inevitable that crime will worsen until it is addressed by other than neglect and incarceration.  In the meanwhile there will be plenty innocent victims, and the Republicans hope they all grow up and vote R, and they're probably going to be right about that.  When they're running the whole table,  there will still be CRIME...  and martial law and other accoutrements of a fascist government.

Inflation.  Of course that's a primary concern.   I do get it that the sitting president is the one with the sign on his desk in the Oval Office that says "the buck stops here."   Biden gets it too.   He didn't invent inflation; his inauguration did not push some special inflation button;  inflation was inevitable after the stimulus programs applied the world round during covid to keep the global economy from  bottoming out worse than during the 2008 collapse over failure of subprime mortgage schemes.  However,  "voting with your wallet" is never more popular than when everyone's wallet is pinched by inflation.   Switching horses in midterm over inflation is not necessarily logical, but one must be prepared to see it happen.    It's just how it goes.   I regret that Dems don't seem able to get traction over the positive impact of Biden's legislation on the forward path of our economy.   That's the breaks.  It's hard to look down the road when your cupboard is bare and you're out of gas.   The Rs are lucky they're not being pressed for solutions to inflation.  We'd have to engage them on matters of what corporate profiteering has to do with it.


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> There is another issue, you bring a gun because either you think you need it to defend yourself, or you plan on using your gun to enforce some belief you have that you have no way of verifying. There is no place for groups of armed individuals at a polling place period.




Yeah, exactly, what is the firearm for?  If someone drives up and gets out with a big bag of ballots, what exactly is the plan?  Point a firearm at them?  If they still approach the drop box, then what?  Just murder them?


----------



## Citysnaps

DT said:


> Yeah, exactly, what is the firearm for?  If someone drives up and gets out with a big bag of ballots, what exactly is the plan?  Point a firearm at them?  If they still approach the drop box, then what?  Just murder them?




Yeah, that's pretty f'd up.  Smells like brandishing a firearm (assuming it goes no further, and is illegal in some states) to me.


----------



## rdrr

Herdfan said:


> Look, I know the film 2000 Mules has its issues. I get that. But there is video in it where people are walking up to drop boxes with handfuls of ballots.
> 
> Where they came from I have no idea, but ballot harvesting is illegal in AZ.
> 
> And FYI, both AZ and GA require 24/7 cameras on drop boxes.



In your world of what is right and only right.   Would I be able to drop off my ballot and my 96 y/o grandfather who doesn't leave the house ballot, and oh while I am there collect my mother and aunt's ballot (because they asked me to be a dear), go down to the box with mine as well.  Clearly showing I have 4 ballots in sealed and signed envelops, with my Biden 4 Life hat on,  *AND...* then not get harassed by the knuckle dragging self appointed lawdog, carrying a AR-15 because they are short in other areas, MAGA-holes?



Herdfan said:


> Ok, let says Biden shouldn’t be blamed for inflation, although some economists * point to trillions in spending as being the cause*.
> 
> But what about the border?  He is certainly responsible for that. There are things he could do to secure it better than it is.
> 
> And then there is crime. While Biden may not be responsible as President, the Dems with their No-cash bail and other progressive policies are having negative effects on public safety and the people will vote against those and the party of those responsible.



Biden for all his spending hasn't even touched what TFG spent in his 4 years.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

TBL said:


> I mean, both parties are not going to do anything substantial about inflation, gas prices, or immigration (or health care, though that seems to be on the back burner for most now); instead Democrats are going to go on and on about January 6th and Trump's tax returns and Republicans are going to focus on trans kids using the bathroom and act like that's the greatest threat to the suburban white way of life.




Whiteboard wizard representative Katie Porter recently did one of her stellar easy to understand presentations showing a little over 50% of inflation was caused by corporate profiteering. This was responded to by mostly crickets. This includes nobody disputing her findings. Government can’t really do much about greed (nor does the US government want to), but it can provide some kind of assistance while the corporations dance on our economic graves. Republicans’ top priority is stripping away that assistance. So before their voters cut up a box to make their ”Build the Wall!” sign they might want to first make sure the box isn’t big enough to potentially live in because they’re probably going to need it.


----------



## Herdfan

Yoused said:


> You know, my state is 100% vote-by-mail. Kind of hard to intimidate voters if there is not a polling place to loiter at. But, the Rs seem to be opposed to vote-by-mail, because …




The concern is not you getting a ballot in the mail, filling it out and mailing it in. 

The concern is that voter rolls are not kept up very well and any attempt to purge them is met with huge opposition. So ballots may be mailed out to people who no longer live at that address or even in the state. So if someone gets ahold of that ballot, nothing stops them from filling it out and mailing it in. And with lax signature verification it can be counted right along side legitimate ones like yours.


----------



## Herdfan

rdrr said:


> In your world of what is right and only right.   Would I be able to drop off my ballot and my 96 y/o grandfather who doesn't leave the house ballot, and oh while I am there collect my mother and aunt's ballot (because they asked me to be a dear), go down to the box with mine as well.



Not sure about GA, in AZ you are allowed to drop off ballots for family members. You are not allowed to walk around neighborhoods collecting them from random people.


----------



## lizkat

Meanwhile on Twitter, what's acceptable regarding election politics is not yet about policy changes yet but a drastic reduction in oversight and enforcement.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1587497585392193538/

Per the piece cited in Ars Technica's tweet:



> Twitter’s head of safety and integrity, Yoel Roth, tweeted that there’s nothing unusual about Twitter’s decision. The company is simply restricting access to prevent employees from making any changes to the software code during the transition.






> According to Bloomberg News, Twitter has significantly cut back on its content moderation staff approved to access a dashboard that logs automated and user-flagged content that requires human review before content is restricted. *Ordinarily, hundreds of employees would be using the dashboard, reviewing content to manually enforce actions dictated by Twitter policy, such as banning or restricting accounts. Since last week, two Twitter safety team insiders told Bloomberg that the total number had been reduced to about 15 employees.*
> 
> Manually reviewed policy violations are usually the most high-profile violations, including those that could involve real-world harm, Twitter employees told Bloomberg.




Seems to me that Yoel is talking about access to code underlying the tools,  but the safety team insiders interviewed by Bloomberg were talking about use of the tools.   Big difference there, to have 15 employees and not "hundreds" now having a look at flagged content.


----------



## ronntaylor

Herdfan said:


> Yep.
> 
> @ronntaylor I guess you only choose to remember things when the right is doing them.
> 
> Not even FoxNews. https://www.inquirer.com/philly/opi..._gnaws_at_nation_s_values.html?outputType=amp



Yep, your typical bucket of bullshit. You could have included that in your inane response. You'll get no one championing those clowns. No one would remark that "is too far even for me."

Your typical whataboutism is weak sauce. Constant harassment and now violence encouraged by GQP members against Dem pols and their family doesn't have anything to do with the clowns you're referencing.


----------



## shadow puppet

Gotta admit, she makes excellent points.  The GOP definitely do not want these points spread around.  I am extremely concerned about the future of our democracy.  Or the chance of a civil war.  The January 6th insurrection was proof enough of this possibility.



> If you're voting on the economy, then vote for the party that allows Americans to decide what is best for their own lives.




https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1588241645748645888/


----------



## SuperMatt

Hi everybody! Looks like I’m back just in time to see we’ve got election-week trolling and disinformation in full swing. And I want a piece of the action!

Maybe you’re thinking... “Calm down buddy, I just want Republicans to talk about their plans if they win." I got news for ya: they tried, but forcing pre-teen girls to give birth to rapists’ babies didn’t turn out to be the winner at the polls that they hoped. SO..... it’s all just troll, troll, troll your boat gently down the fecal stream of imaginary fraud.

But WAIT! Not ALL the fraud is imaginary... I want to give a special prize to a man who refuses to take “no fraud” for an answer!

Harry Wait of Wisconsin saw the Trump claims of fraud, but nobody could find any evidence. So, he used his “real American” powers to fix the problem in the only way he knew how. He committed multiple counts of fraud himself! Take that, stupid liberals!



> MADISON - A Racine County man who illegally requested absentee ballots to prove election fraud is possible has been charged with election fraud, the Wisconsin Department of Justice announced Thursday.
> 
> Harry Wait, a leader of a Racine County-based group known as H.O.T. Government that promotes false claims of voter fraud in the 2020 election, fraudulently obtained absentee ballots for Assembly Speaker Robin Vos and Racine Mayor Cory Mason to show violations of the law are possible.
> 
> He was charged on Thursday with two counts of election fraud and two counts of unauthorized use of an individual's personal identifying information related to his scheme to commit fraud.
> 
> "I'm glad I did it. I would do it again in a heartbeat," Wait told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel on Thursday.












						Racine County man who illegally requested absentee ballots to prove voter fraud exists has been charged
					

Harry Wait is the leader of a Racine County-based group that promotes false claims of voter fraud in the 2020 election.



					www.jsonline.com
				




Since he’s a good ol’ boy, never meanin’ no harm, his local sheriff promised not to arrest him for it. However, it turns out that voter fraud can be prosecuted by people other than Sheriff Schmaling.

If he gets convicted, he’ll have up to 12 years in jail to laugh about just how hard he PWNED those darn libs. Maybe Trump would come visit him in prison to thank him, but according to what I’m seeing on the new and improved Twitter(tm), he recently died.

BREAKING NEWS!

It wouldn’t be 2022 if I didn’t reload the article I was going to link in the middle of typing this and find out that it got even more fracked up. This guy wasn’t alone. The deputy director of Wisconsin’s Election Commission is part of this nonsense too.



> A Milwaukee election official could face criminal charges accusing her of fraudulently requesting absentee ballots reserved for members of the military and sending them to a Republican lawmaker known for embracing unfoundedconspiracy theories about the 2020 election.
> 
> Milwaukee Election Commission Deputy Director Kimberly Zapata, 44, of South Milwaukee was fired by Milwaukee Mayor Cavalier Johnson this week after Johnson discovered she had requested the ballots. Johnson said Zapata's actions may have been to show voter fraud was possible.
> 
> "This has every appearance of being an egregious and blatant violation of trust," Johnson said. "Election integrity is absolutely integral. It's absolutely essential."
> 
> Milwaukee County prosecutors are considering charging Zapata with malfeasance in office, a felony, and illegally requesting a ballot, a misdemeanor, a source told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.












						Milwaukee Election Commission official Kimberly Zapata could face charges accusing her of fraudulently requesting military ballots
					

A Milwaukee election official fraudulently requested absentee ballots reserved for members of the military, an internal city review shows.



					www.jsonline.com
				




So, what imaginary problem should Republicans turn into a real problem next? Pick your favorite:

MAGA-hat wearing gangs run through “Democrat-led” cities, murdering everybody they see. You say crime is down 1%? We’ll fix that!

Millions of Trump voters across the country get sex change surgery, thereby proving this transgender thing is totally out of control!

2000 Republican voters ride to their polling place on actual mules.

Doug Mastriano performs pole dances in Pennsylvania’s public schools.

Republican politicians start using litter boxes instead of bathrooms.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> The concern is that voter rolls are not kept up very well and any attempt to purge them is met with huge opposition.




It's only met with opposition when the purge is selective, and takes place shortly before a vote.


----------



## rdrr

Herdfan said:


> Not sure about GA, in AZ you are allowed to drop off ballots for family members. You are not allowed to walk around neighborhoods collecting them from random people.



Except the Idiot with the rifle who thinks he is right, wouldn't know if the the 4 ballots in my hand are "random" people or family members.  None of their business who's they are, but they'll take a look at my Biden hat and assume I am "stuffing" the ballot box.   Meanwhile the people on the right who actually did commit voter fraud in 2020, got what you would consider less than a slap on the wrist.   The hypocrisy is real my friend


----------



## ronntaylor

rdrr said:


> The hypocrisy is real my friend



It's not hypocrisy. It's criminality planned and executed by thugs. Like the saying goes: for Republicans, every accusation is a confession.


----------



## lizkat

There's a reason my watchlists on streaming platforms are getting pared down now....  I might be almost maxed out on all the pre-2022-midterms high jinx and low blows...   even if I still appreciate random samplings of "what's up" from members of this community

None of what has gone on in campaign arenas since the summer of 2015 has made me think less of proposals that US political campaigns are, variously:

too long, too freeform, too expensive, should consist of people posting policy statements and a photograph on their party's website, which reminds potential voters they have six weeks to read through all the stuff and make up their minds, then four weeks to check their voter registrations, then three weeks to submit ballots.​
Three months total instead of our 24/7/366 preoccupation with... "so much winning" and losing.


----------



## Alli

TBL said:


> I mean, both parties are not going to do anything substantial about inflation, gas prices, or immigration (or health care, though that seems to be on the back burner for most now); instead Democrats are going to go on and on about January 6th and Trump's tax returns and Republicans are going to focus on trans kids using the bathroom and act like that's the greatest threat to the suburban white way of life.



Oh please. The right definitely isn’t going to do anything, they don’t even have a platform. Regarding inflation, their idea of help is to give more tax breaks to the ultra wealthy. They don’t even think about the other 99% of the country. Gas prices? Again, the right is verify happy giving tax breaks to the ultra wealthy. The left, OTOH, is talking about a new windfall profit tax - the opposite of the tax breaks the right offers. Health care…yea, the right keeps voting against anything that could benefit our health, whether it’s capping drug costs or making sure women don’t die of sepsis while waiting for a lawyer to determine the fetus she’s carrying has been dead for 2 weeks so maybe they should let the doctor perform the procedure to remove the fetal tissue that causes sepsis. Don’t even start on immigration. I try to keep my responses brief.


SuperMatt said:


> Hi everybody! Looks like I’m back just in time to see we’ve got election-week trolling and disinformation in full swing. And I want a piece of the action!



Welcome back, Matt! I’ve missed you!


----------



## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> The concern is not you getting a ballot in the mail, filling it out and mailing it in.
> 
> The concern is that voter rolls are not kept up very well and any attempt to purge them is met with huge opposition. So ballots may be mailed out to people who no longer live at that address or even in the state. So if someone gets ahold of that ballot, nothing stops them from filling it out and mailing it in. And with lax signature verification it can be counted right along side legitimate ones like yours.



It’s mostly a made up Right Wing concern to sew doubt about any election where they don’t win. Questions?


----------



## shadow puppet

Alli said:


> Welcome back, Matt! I’ve missed you!



Ditto!


----------



## Herdfan

rdrr said:


> Except the Idiot with the rifle who thinks he is right, wouldn't know if the the 4 ballots in my hand are "random" people or family members.  None of their business who's they are, but they'll take a look at my Biden hat and assume I am "stuffing" the ballot box.   Meanwhile the people on the right who actually did commit voter fraud in 2020, got what you would consider less than a slap on the wrist.   The hypocrisy is real my friend




Try watching some of the videos of the ballot drop boxes. It wasn’t “4” ballots, it was handfuls of them.


----------



## Citysnaps

Are the videos somehow verified as legit by a credible news source? What was the outcome of the stuffing (authorities notified, an official investigation completed, etc.)? Which elections and where did the ballots come from?


----------



## lizkat

Brennan Center has run a piece with details about the law and intimidation of voters or election workers, and resources for assistance with related issues.    Looks like a loophole exists in legal terms of "intimidation" at locations like drop boxes,  and some states will probably patch those up in future, considering what's starting to happen in 2022 during the runup to Election Day.









						Voter Intimidation and Election Worker Intimidation Resource Guide
					

Federal and state laws provide protection from the new threats facing voters and election officials this year.




					www.brennancenter.org


----------



## rdrr

Herdfan said:


> Try watching some of the videos of the ballot drop boxes. It wasn’t “4” ballots, it was handfuls of them.




I am not talking about your fictional movie.  I pointing out how a person with 4 ballots in my scenario, with totally legitimate and legal grounds, would be intimidated because those asshats think and act they are the law.   Meanwhile something you didn't address was the very real illegal voting going on in 2020 by Republicans who didn't get punished for it.


----------



## DT

Alli said:


> Welcome back, Matt! I’ve missed you!




He's been lurking for weeks, I was hoping he'd join the conversation again


----------



## ronntaylor

rdrr said:


> Meanwhile something you didn't address was the very real illegal voting going on in 2020 by Republicans who didn't get punished for it.



Don't hold your breath.


----------



## Huntn

rdrr said:


> Except the Idiot with the rifle who thinks he is right, wouldn't know if the the 4 ballots in my hand are "random" people or family members.  None of their business who's they are, but they'll take a look at my Biden hat and assume I am "stuffing" the ballot box.   Meanwhile the people on the right who actually did commit voter fraud in 2020, got what you would consider less than a slap on the wrist.   The hypocrisy is real my friend



In the US’s political spectrum, the GOP has broken bad. First it was slavery, and the hypocracy of people who professed to be Christians deciding that owning slaves was a good business practise.  They even made up excuses why their God would accept this. So we’ve been there before and it took a war to fix it, erase slavery, although in light of today’s Republican Party whose ancestry dates back to Civil War Democrats, we are still seriously broken.

This group has always on the wrong side of history.  In the early 1960s, the Country again managed to shove civil rights down Southerner’s throats, this seems to be when a lot of them turned into Republicans.

Since then, it’s  been a long 60 year evolution from a right wing position, pretending to possess a degree of integrity, logic, consistency, and at some point even acknowledged their need for a bigger tent,  when they could still recognize their short comings, but were always tribal/racist, and it’s always been about keeping the advantage. The idea of a bigger tent as far as diversity got tossed soon after it was suggested.

Towards the goal of holding power, especially today there seems to be no place in their playbook for level playing fields and equal rights, a fundamental inability to acknowledge the advantages they had to get ahead at the start, and unwillingness to share, lots of $$$ for the Military Industrial Complex, and Corporate Wellfare, and a big fuck you to average citizens, better referred to as _the sheep._ But some percentage of the sheep are fighting back.

Consequently it appears there is no low today’s GOP  leadership* won’t sink to if needed to win, which includes lies, cheating, and attacks on our Democracy and Constitution, with the primary goal of remaining in power.

* The leadership is voted in and condoned by the base.

If you need more confirmation of a new all time low, all you have to do is look at Donald Trump, still lurking, poisoning brains, and a Conservative US Supreme Court who has been unleashed to march us backwards in time. But not only back in time, but in the destruction of fundamental values and tenants upon which the country was created. From there, without extreme effort on our part, it’s all downhill until we bottom out.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Between the two, people who don’t vote and low information voters, I don’t know which is worse but I’m starting to lean toward low information voters. At the very least we should stop giving them almost some hero-like status “They’re too busy taking care of their lives to know WTF is really going on, but they vote!” Yeah, they vote based on how they see things this minute with extreme tunnel vision and no comprehension that things could be a lot worse if they just reflexively switch sides or think doing that is actually going to fix the problem.

Then in a case of extreme mental gymnastics propaganda we’re supposed to believe these people are both too busy to pay attention AND really weighing all the information before they vote. You can’t be doing both, but at the end of it we get “The people of [insert area here] have spoken!” as if every voter did exhaustive research on all issues and confidently picked a winner.

If “historically in the midterms the party in power loses control of Congress” isn’t a hallmark of an electorate asleep at the wheel I don’t know what is. But hey, we also think cyclical major recessions are totally normal and unavoidable and not completely manufactured by those at the top abusing the system until it breaks. I know, let’s vote the party in power during that time out of office! That will fix it. Despite that never happening.


----------



## rdrr

IMO Biden squandered the 2 years, and made a huge mistake trying to be polite and work with the other side.   The other side doesn't want to work with us and has gotten worse with the divisive crap they pull.   Biden should have used his first two years to  protect Transgender Rights, addressed Racism and Hate Speech with stronger laws, packed the courts, forgiven student loans way sooner, and put the burden of the taxes clearly on the Corporations and Ultra Wealthy.   We'll see what happens come next Tuesday, but it isn't looking good.   I fear for the future of democracy, and for my children's future.


----------



## Herdfan

Citysnaps said:


> Are the videos somehow verified as legit by a credible news source? What was the outcome of the stuffing (authorities notified, an official investigation completed, etc.)? Which elections and where did the ballots come from?




They are supposed to be from the official box watching cameras put up and monitored by the election board.  But I think if they were faked, it would have been a huge story.



ronntaylor said:


> Yep, your typical bucket of bullshit.




Whatever. 

I all know is that come Wednesday morning I am likely to way happier than you.   And it’s not going to be just because of MAGA individuals. 

It is going to be because the people are getting tired of the progressive push left.   Hispanics are bailing to the GOP in record numbers and the Dems pissed of the mama bears and they are returning after their vote against mean tweets. 

Enjoy


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> They are supposed to be from the *official box watching cameras* put up and monitored by the election board. But I think if they were faked, it would have been a huge story.




Would you happen to have some links with official city/county/state government URLs of those ballot-stuffing videos?

And what is the rest of the story?  Was there a local government investigation and finding as to what was going on?

Pardon my skepticism, but I'm kind of fussy on knowing the source of such claims before I take them as fact.


----------



## SuperMatt

Citysnaps said:


> Are the videos somehow verified as legit by a credible news source? What was the outcome of the stuffing (authorities notified, an official investigation completed, etc.)? Which elections and where did the ballots come from?



D’Souza is a convicted felon. His crime was interfering in the electoral process. The book version of his mockumentary was pulled by the publisher so they could take out all the libel and/or slander and re-issue it in a way to avoid lawsuits. D’Souza is facing a lawsuit from a person he falsely accused of illegally voting. The man is proven to have voted legally, but D’Souza kept up with the false claims, which led to threats against the man… not to mention he had to defend himself from prosecution for no good reason. So when people say “I saw people illegally voting in the movie” - no they didn’t. They legally voted, but D’Souza intentionally lied, claiming they were doing something illegal. The movie is intentionally deceptive, but truly laughable for anybody looking at it objectively. Bill Barr literally laughed when asked about it in his Jan 6 interview.

Right now, ”True the Vote” (who produced the movie) members are actually in jail for contempt of court. Why? Because they have been ordered to back up some of their claims against a software company they slandered… but of course they can’t. So now they are pretending to have a secret source in the FBI that they can’t disclose in order to protect the agent’s safety. The judge saw that BS for what it was and locked them up.

But if all that still doesn’t convince you that D’Souza is totally full of , please read this interview. Philip Bump interviewed D’Souza to allow him to back up any of his claims from the movie. Well, read for yourself. If you want the short version, whenever D’Souza is asked to back up a claim, he asks the interviewer to prove the claims false instead.  





__





						Loading…
					





					wapo.st
				



(paywall removed)

If anybody from this point forward uses 2000 mules as a source of anything, you can safely ignore them. Believing anything in it is like watching Finding Nemo and then dunking your head into a fish tank hoping for a conversation.


----------



## Deleted member 215

rdrr said:


> IMO Biden squandered the 2 years, and made a huge mistake trying to be polite and work with the other side.   The other side doesn't want to work with us and has gotten worse with the divisive crap they pull.   Biden should have used his first two years to  protect Transgender Rights, addressed Racism and Hate Speech with stronger laws, packed the courts, forgiven student loans way sooner, and put the burden of the taxes clearly on the Corporations and Ultra Wealthy.   We'll see what happens come next Tuesday, but it isn't looking good.   I fear for the future of democracy, and for my children's future.




Well, yeah, Democrats always do this. The best example was the "Biden crack pipe" scandal. Harm reduction policies to address overdose deaths do sometimes provide paraphernalia, but the right-wing media jumped on it with "Biden is giving people crack pipes!" and instead of doubling down and defending these policies, Democrats immediately caved and walked it all back. Any push left is immediately followed by backpedaling and groveling. Any push right is celebrated and applauded. Republicans can keep going further to the right, but Democrats have to make sure they stay moderate. Why? It's BS.


----------



## lizkat

I'm hoping the pollsters have massively overcompensated this time for having twice slightly underestimated Republican chances in prior outings.    It's a faint hope. 

 But at this point I have almost zero hope that people are still listening to valid points made by Dems talking about any of Biden's accomplishments.    I mentioned the 11% drop in homeless veterans on Biden's watch to a couple of locals,  both of whom are Vietnam era vets and who when younger were very supportive of efforts to find MIA veterans of that era, and pressuring DC to provide better social services and do more to get industry to seek out returning vets for employment, etc. 

One of them said yeah but... and changed the subject.  The other said yeah it's good but gas is too expensive and Biden could do something about that if he felt like it.   This despite gas having come down in the past several months. 

So the inflation issue seems to be running true to political form of years past:  when it's an issue,  it's THE issue in midterm elections.   Late in the day for Biden to do or say anything at this point to take focus off people's shrunken wallets...  even if the day after election the other problems created by Republican anti-tax anti-regulatory anti-labor anti-social policies of the past 40 years are still on our plates AND affecting resilience of our people and our economy.  And, even if the Republicans have no more power than Biden to wave a magic wand and "disappear" inflation.


----------



## shadow puppet

Herdfan said:


> all know is that come Wednesday morning I am likely to way happier than you.   And it’s not going to be just because of MAGA individuals.
> 
> It is going to be because the people are getting tired of the progressive push left.   Hispanics are bailing to the GOP in record numbers and the Dems pissed of the mama bears and they are returning after their vote against mean tweets.
> 
> Enjoy



That is truly sad.  As is your apparent glee of it happening.

So women lose out on having a choice over their bodies, even if raped or dying of sepsis due to  a pregnancy gone bad.  We lose affordable healthcare, endure cutbacks or possible loss of medicare and social security but you will be clicking your heels together in happiness over this inevitable suffering.

You represent everything I abhor about the GOP and far right.  How you can live with yourself is beyond my comprehension.


----------



## Deleted member 215

To be fair, all politics is mostly about wanting the people you don't like to suffer.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Democrat candidates (have no faith in most incumbents who have probably already been corrupted) should run on an anti-neoliberal platform because

A). It’s the actual problem
B). Low information voters will hear “liberal” in the name and hear it as anti-Democrat establishment which will attract some voters
C). Despite the name, it’s actually a Republican/conservative philosophy. So if you are running against it you are still on the left side of politics
D). They don’t have to deal with the psychological damage inflicted on “socialism” or “progressive”.


----------



## Citysnaps

SuperMatt said:


> D’Souza is a convicted felon. His crime was interfering in the electoral process. The book version of his mockumentary was pulled by the publisher so they could take out all the libel and/or slander and re-issue it in a way to avoid lawsuits. D’Souza is facing a lawsuit from a person he falsely accused of illegally voting. The man is proven to have voted legally, but D’Souza kept up with the false claims, which led to threats against the man… not to mention he had to defend himself from prosecution for no good reason. So when people say “I saw people illegally voting in the movie” - no they didn’t. They legally voted, but D’Souza intentionally lied, claiming they were doing something illegal. The movie is intentionally deceptive, but truly laughable for anybody looking at it objectively. Bill Barr literally laughed when asked about it in his Jan 6 interview.
> 
> Right now, ”True the Vote” (who produced the movie) members are actually in jail for contempt of court. Why? Because they have been ordered to back up some of their claims against a software company they slandered… but of course they can’t. So now they are pretending to have a secret source in the FBI that they can’t disclose in order to protect the agent’s safety. The judge saw that BS for what it was and locked them up.
> 
> But if all that still doesn’t convince you that D’Souza is totally full of , please read this interview. Philip Bump interviewed D’Souza to allow him to back up any of his claims from the movie. Well, read for yourself. If you want the short version, whenever D’Souza is asked to back up a claim, he asks the interviewer to prove the claims false instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wapo.st
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (paywall removed)
> 
> If anybody from this point forward uses 2000 mules as a source of anything, you can safely ignore them. Believing anything in it is like watching Finding Nemo and then dunking your head into a fish tank hoping for a conversation.




Thanx for the heads-up. Wasn't aware of D'Souza or 2,000 Mules.


----------



## Cmaier

Citysnaps said:


> Thanx for the heads-up. Wasn't aware of D'Souza or 2,000 Mules.




My wife is a therapist, and has some D’Souza book on her shelf. Makes me vomit in my mouth whenever i walk into our home office.


----------



## shadow puppet

God I miss this man.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1586493160896749568/


----------



## Renzatic

Cmaier said:


> My wife is a therapist, and has some D’Souza book on her shelf. Makes me vomit in my mouth whenever i walk into our home office.




Like, EVERY time? I could see that getting a little old after awhile.

"Hey, honey. I brought you some Chinese takeHURRUGUGUGURURGU!"


----------



## Citysnaps

Cmaier said:


> My wife is a therapist, *and has some D’Souza book on her shelf*. Makes me vomit in my mouth whenever i walk into our home office.




Secretly replace it with Bill Joy's  _Having Fun With the vi Editor_. Vomit be gone.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> D’Souza is a convicted felon. His crime was interfering in the electoral process. The book version of his mockumentary was pulled by the publisher so they could take out all the libel and/or slander and re-issue it in a way to avoid lawsuits. D’Souza is facing a lawsuit from a person he falsely accused of illegally voting. The man is proven to have voted legally, but D’Souza kept up with the false claims, which led to threats against the man… not to mention he had to defend himself from prosecution for no good reason. So when people say “I saw people illegally voting in the movie” - no they didn’t. They legally voted, but D’Souza intentionally lied, claiming they were doing something illegal. The movie is intentionally deceptive, but truly laughable for anybody looking at it objectively. Bill Barr literally laughed when asked about it in his Jan 6 interview.
> 
> Right now, ”True the Vote” (who produced the movie) members are actually in jail for contempt of court. Why? Because they have been ordered to back up some of their claims against a software company they slandered… but of course they can’t. So now they are pretending to have a secret source in the FBI that they can’t disclose in order to protect the agent’s safety. The judge saw that BS for what it was and locked them up.
> 
> But if all that still doesn’t convince you that D’Souza is totally full of , please read this interview. Philip Bump interviewed D’Souza to allow him to back up any of his claims from the movie. Well, read for yourself. If you want the short version, whenever D’Souza is asked to back up a claim, he asks the interviewer to prove the claims false instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wapo.st
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (paywall removed)
> 
> If anybody from this point forward uses 2000 mules as a source of anything, you can safely ignore them. Believing anything in it is like watching Finding Nemo and then dunking your head into a fish tank hoping for a conversation.




The parade of right-wing grifters is pretty awe-inspiring. If we can’t convict them we should at least give them an annual award show. Name it after Trump. Have the guy who produced the 1/6 hearings produce it so it’s top quality and gets the attention it deserves.

To be fair, populating the US early on mostly has grifters to thank. So we’ve come full circle with big lies and false promises.


----------



## Citysnaps

SuperMatt said:


> If you want the short version, whenever D’Souza is asked to back up a claim, he asks the interviewer to prove the claims false instead.




_"...he asks the interviewer to prove the claims false instead."_

Where have I heard that rebuttal before? 


I just read the D'Souza's Wiki summary.  That's enough.


----------



## lizkat

Huntn said:


> without extreme effort on our part, it’s all downhill until we bottom out.




Unless there's an indictment and conviction somewhere down the road, yeah.









						Scoop: Trump team eyes Nov. 14 announcement to kick off 2024 presidential run
					

Allies are blocking off days in their calendars for the week after the midterms.




					www.axios.com


----------



## Citysnaps

lizkat said:


> Scoop: Trump team eyes Nov. 14 announcement to kick off 2024 presidential run​




That's interesting.  Is that some kind of  trump stay out jail maneuver?  Normally the DOJ employs a 60 day period before an election barring them from filing criminal charges on a candidate. I wonder if trump announcing his presidential run now would somehow cause the DOJ to extend that period?  Just spitballing, can't see Garland doing that...


----------



## Renzatic

Citysnaps said:


> That's interesting.  Is that some kind of  trump stay out jail maneuver?  Normally the DOJ employs a 60 day period before an election barring them from filing criminal charges on a candidate. I wonder if trump announcing his presidential run now would somehow cause the DOJ to extend that period?  Just spitballing, can't see Garland doing that...




Probably not. It's likely that he's doing it knowing it'll stoke the flames of the inevitable backlash to his arrest even moreso.


----------



## ronntaylor

TBL said:


> To be fair, all politics is mostly about wanting the people you don't like to suffer.



That's rank conservative, racist bullshit.


----------



## lizkat

TBL said:


> To be fair, all politics is mostly about wanting the people you don't like to suer.




The Ds seem to me like they want other people to have a chance, a choice...  so long as one person's opportunity does not leave others with no choice, or no chance.  Can't say that I think the Republicans of today view things that way.

I'm not sure the Rs consciously want other people to suffer.   Still, it's a guaranteed offshoot of the policies that Republicans endorse:  permanent tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy,  deregulation, reduction of social spending and reduced enforcement of disliked laws or agency rulings they haven't been able to turn around yet.

Then there are the overt attempts of a maliciously conservative-packed SCOTUS to gut Voting Rights legislation and to (electively) overturn Roe v Wade via the broad Dobbs ruling.  For the high court to mess with urban areas' erstwhile perfectly reasonable constraints on gun permits was abusive. For Republicans to bring suits whining about persecution of Christians is a mockery of history, common sense, statistics and the rule of law itself.

However one wants to characterize the Rs' observable behavior, the result is not "benign neglect" as I've sometimes heard critics describe effects of Republican social programming aspirations. 

It's punitive, not neglectful when Rs pass state laws that cause women's health clinics to shut down across entire states. What are we to think of a country that shrugs off the idea of a woman having to be helicoptered to another state to get timely treatment of an ectopic pregnancy??!

It's punitive for some states now to deprive voters of the convenience of absentee voting when other states have been processing such ballots or standard vote-by-mail ballots essentially fraud-free for decades.

But when you get down into levels of school boards, well...  I might have to retract my objection to the idea that some people active in politics just want other people to suffer.  It gets personal at that level, and whatever one thinks about trans females in high school sports,  there's something really ugly about the ultraconservative parents now trying to get books with any LGBTQ+ content banned from library shelves.


----------



## shadow puppet

The Lincoln Project has put together some great presentations.
I just wish this one had been released sooner.  From what I can tell, it seems a lot of folks voted early.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1588683512923639808/


----------



## ronntaylor

lizkat said:


> The Ds seem to me like they want other people to have a chance, a choice... so long as one person's opportunity does not leave others with no choice, or no chance. Can't say that I think the Republicans of today view things that way.



That's exactly how I see it. Even Dixiecrats were more about limited/eliminating opportunities for Black people. That was decades ago. Republican pols have taken up that mantle and expanded it with the aim of being cruel and vindictive.

Clarification: so there can be no confusion, my reply to @TBL wasn't aimed at him, but to GOP/conservative pols. I was rushed for time and my wording was imprecise.


----------



## lizkat

Citysnaps said:


> That's interesting.  Is that some kind of  trump stay out jail maneuver?  Normally the DOJ employs a 60 day period before an election barring them from filing criminal charges on a candidate. I wonder if trump announcing his presidential run now would somehow cause the DOJ to extend that period?  Just spitballing, can't see Garland doing that...




Who knows what he has in mind.  He may be hoping for some kind of chaos during the post-election period and figures to piggyback his announcement on that --with a pitch that "American carnage" will only subside when he alone returns to fix it.

Maybe he wants to beat an indictment and thinks Garland won't indict in the immediate post-election time frame.  Or maybe wants to throw a stick into the wheels of the 1/6 committee, which has served him a subpoena and must wrap up with their report to DoJ by year end.

 Honestly I think the Republican leadership will be annoyed.    They don't really want Trump in the picture for 2024.  He's only in the picture because the Nov 8th ballots are not counted yet.  McConnell loathes him.   McCarthy has only been kissing the Don's ring because if the base and other Rs can flip the house, he will be Speaker of the House.   People like McDaniel and Stefanik will have fingers to the wind but would probably rather work with De Santis than Trump.  Who wouldn't?!

After the midterms there's a window for Republicans to start putting some daylight between themselves and Trump,  and not suffer any real consequence from Trump's base over it.   So of course Trump could try to put the kibosh on that by grabbing the spotlight immediately with a 2024 announcement.   He might at least find out if donor fatigue is a growing problem.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Tuesday seems like a long time away, and I can only imagine the incidents of intimidation we will see, and the number of close races which will spawn tons of conspiracy theories.

We’re already at the point of the capitol being stormed and elected officials homes being broken into and their spouses attacked, what’s next? I guess we’ll find out next week.


----------



## Alli

rdrr said:


> IMO Biden squandered the 2 years, and made a huge mistake trying to be polite and work with the other side.   The other side doesn't want to work with us and has gotten worse with the divisive crap they pull.   Biden should have used his first two years to  protect Transgender Rights, addressed Racism and Hate Speech with stronger laws, packed the courts, forgiven student loans way sooner, and put the burden of the taxes clearly on the Corporations and Ultra Wealthy.   We'll see what happens come next Tuesday, but it isn't looking good.   I fear for the future of democracy, and for my children's future.




So you’re saying you wanted Biden to spend the first two years ruling by Executive Order? Cause without a majority Senate, that would have been his only option.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> I don’t think it is about intimidating individual voters, but about intimidating those who are dropping off scores of ballots.




Yeah so some states want to make it illegal to bring ballots from a nursing home?   What, so you want every family with someone in that sort of facility to go get the ballot and bring it to the polling station?









						‘Chaos and confusion’: The campaign to stamp out ballot drop boxes
					

Campaigns against drop boxes are increasingly succeeding. Laws, court rulings and politicians in at least a dozen states have targeted them.




					publicintegrity.org


----------



## lizkat

If if all goes south for fans of democracy,  it won't be accidental.  Map from Center for Public Integrity on voting rights changes.

Details in cited piece









						Who Counts?
					

Emboldened by a right-wing shift on the Supreme Court, fueled by conspiracy theories about the 2020 election, and against the backdrop of changing demographics that threaten to upend the country’s power dynamics, 26 states have made access to voting and political representation less equal in the...




					publicintegrity.org


----------



## GermanSuplex

There’s going to be a lot of amateur Matlocks out there recording everything and offering it up as “evidence” and “proof” or widespread voter fraud. I’m sure some innocent worker who’s been doing this for decades without incident is suddenly going to face death threats because someone showed Trump a video of them “doing something suspicious”.

We already know it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy with these knuckleheads, so desperate are they to find proof of their fairytales that they will commit the acts they are accusing others of.


----------



## Herdfan

TBL said:


> To be fair, all politics is mostly about wanting the people you don't like to suffer.




There is a difference between me being happy with the results as opposed to me being happy that most of you are unhappy. 

I said the former. Some have assumed the latter.


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> I’m sure some innocent worker who’s been doing this for decades without incident is suddenly going to face death threats because someone showed Trump a video of them “doing something suspicious”.




Apparently that's already happening widespread. Two nights ago on the national news there was a story about that with election workers getting death threats, being stalked, etc.

What's bewildering and sad is there seems to be no one in the Republican Party that's willing or patriotic enough to stand up and call that crap out. Apparently because it works in their favor.

What an effn bunch of unpatriotic chickenshits. 

EDIT:  A huge hat tip to Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger for standing up and caring about democracy. Sadly, that's rare Republican patriotism.


----------



## Citysnaps

Speaking of Republicans...









						How Republicans Fed a Misinformation Loop About the Pelosi Attack
					

Within hours of the brutal attack last week on Paul Pelosi, Republican officials and media figures began circulating groundless claims — nearly all of them sinister, and many homophobic — about what had happened.



					www.nytimes.com


----------



## ronntaylor

GermanSuplex said:


> There’s going to be a lot of amateur Matlocks out there recording everything and offering it up as “evidence” and “proof” or widespread voter fraud. I’m sure some innocent worker who’s been doing this for decades without incident is suddenly going to face death threats because someone showed Trump a video of them “doing something suspicious”.
> 
> We already know it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy with these knuckleheads, so desperate are they to find proof of their fairytales that they will commit the acts they are accusing others of.



Although I gave up being an Election Day Worker, I almost volunteered to be a poll watcher. I suspect that there will be tons of nonsense leading up to and including Election Day. And I won't be surprised by violence as a result of GQP rhetoric. In places with tight/too-close-to-call races or surprise Dem slim wins there whining will be super intense.

Dipshit D'Snoozah must be getting ready for another misinformation "documentary" that right-wingers will lap up as gospel truth.


----------



## Cmaier

ronntaylor said:


> Although I gave up being an Election Day Worker, I almost volunteered to be a poll watcher. I suspect that there will be tons of nonsense leading up to and including Election Day. And I won't be surprised by violence as a result of GQP rhetoric. In places with tight/too-close-to-call races or surprise Dem slim wins there whining will be super intense.
> 
> Dipshit D'Snoozah must be getting ready for another misinformation "documentary" that right-wingers will lap up as gospel truth.




I‘m so happy to now live in a state where every registered voter gets a ballot by mail. You drop it in any mailbox and you get text messages when it is picked up by the postal service, when it is delivered to the elections folks, and when it is counted. No need to worry about MAGA dipshits with guns trying to scare you away from the polling place.


----------



## ronntaylor

Cmaier said:


> I‘m so happy to now live in a state where every registered voter gets a ballot by mail. You drop it in any mailbox and you get text messages when it is picked up by the postal service, when it is delivered to the elections folks, and when it is counted. No need to worry about MAGA dipshits with guns trying to scare you away from the polling place.



NYS is so ass backwards. You have to request an absentee ballot. And give a reason why. And the tracking is slow, inaccurate and frustrating. I'm hoping that the progressives in the State legislature will correct that in the next session.


----------



## Cmaier

ronntaylor said:


> NYS is so ass backwards. You have to request an absentee ballot. And give a reason why. And the tracking is slow, inaccurate and frustrating. I'm hoping that the progressives in the State legislature will correct that in the next session.




I voted a few times in NY, and recall it was a pain when I was in college, since my school was up near Albany and i was registered to vote down in Orange County.


----------



## GermanSuplex

I’ve just seen an article about how much Chuck Grassley is kicking his opponents ass in Iowa. So one side definitely doesn’t have an issue supporting old, establishment career politicians.

He’s parroted a lot of MAGA crap at his advanced age, which is why I suppose he’s being kept around. A Trump guy with an elder statesman facade.


----------



## shadow puppet

Cmaier said:


> I‘m so happy to now live in a state where every registered voter gets a ballot by mail. You drop it in any mailbox and you get text messages when it is picked up by the postal service, when it is delivered to the elections folks, and when it is counted. No need to worry about MAGA dipshits with guns trying to scare you away from the polling place.



Exactly the same in my state.  So convenient from start to finish.  I love it.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Just a sign of what’s to come… 

Man, do I dread seeing Jim Jordan asking people unserious questions with the fervor of a rabid dog.









						Republicans Release 1,000 Page Report on FBI & DOJ Politicization - House Judiciary Committee Republicans
					

Today, House Judiciary Republicans released a new report, “FBI Whistleblowers: What Their Disclosures Indicate About the Politicization of the FBI And Justice Department,” detailing a rampant culture of unaccountability, manipulation, and abuse at the highest level. The thousand-page report...




					republicans-judiciary.house.gov


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> There is a difference between me being happy with the results as opposed to me being happy that most of you are unhappy.
> 
> I said the former. Some have assumed the latter.




But I think you may be wrong about your analysis of why a majority of people who are voting Republican are doing it.  I believe you are at least middle class as is your social circle.  You have the luxury of being "against the progressive agenda". The middle class is ever shrinking and if you aren’t part of it (or above) it has more to do with the cost of gas, food, and keeping a roof over your head.


----------



## shadow puppet

So grateful I live in a state where I was able to mail my ballot and have its receipt and being counted, confirmed via text.  I honestly feel for those of you having to go through this if it's happening in your area.  It's not right.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1589337124041814016/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

shadow puppet said:


> So grateful I live in a state where I was able to mail my ballot and have its receipt and being counted, confirmed via text.  I honestly feel for those of you having to go through this if it's happening in your area.  It's not right.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1589337124041814016/




The intern who wrote that headline got fired.  Where they put "warn of" they were supposed to put "praise".


----------



## mac_in_tosh

All this angst about election integrity is because of one sociopath, Donald Trump. We now know that it was his strategy all along to claim the election was rigged if he lost. It wasn't due to any actual fraud that he learned of and all his advisors, even including his loyal Attorney General, told him there was none of any significance. Trump even had to claim a distinction between mail-in voting and absentee voting because he himself had used the latter for many years, whereas in practice there is little difference if any in how to qualify for each.

One thing I'll be glad for after election day is the end to all the political ads, the phone calls and the text messages. It's sad how that shows how much of our elections are determined by who has more money. But one thing I never understood are the lawn signs. Like what, you see a sign for Joe Smith by the road and say to yourself "now that's the guy I'm going to vote for?"


----------



## shadow puppet

mac_in_tosh said:


> One thing I'll be glad for after election day is the end to all the political ads, the phone calls and the text messages.



Add to this the dozen or so thick advertising flyers that have been filling up my mailbox for months.  I send them straight to my recycling bin while shaking my head at all the trees killed to generate them.


mac_in_tosh said:


> But one thing I never understood are the lawn signs. Like what, you see a sign for Joe Smith by the road and say to yourself "now that's the guy I'm going to vote for?"



I completely concur.  They just become part of the landscape for me and thus are ignored.


----------



## ronntaylor

mac_in_tosh said:


> But one thing I never understood are the lawn signs. Like what, you see a sign for Joe Smith by the road and say to yourself "now that's the guy I'm going to vote for?"



It's a grift. You'd be surprised how many political consultants are connected to the sign makers and the button makers and the sticker makers. It's essentially an octopus of grift on every level. And of course, it's GOP & Dem.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Wow, if you wonder why Fox viewers are dumber than people who consume no news at all… look at this headline criticizing the WH spokesperson for stating the obvious truth…





__





						Karine Jean-Pierre blasted for warning it may take ‘a few days’ to count votes: ‘This insanity has to stop’ | Fox News
					

Twitter users balked after the White House declared that the 2022 Midterm's results may not be fully processed on election night, as many recalled quicker past elections.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> Wow, if you wonder why Fox viewers are dumber than people who consume no news at all… look at this headline criticizing the WH spokesperson for stating the obvious truth…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karine Jean-Pierre blasted for warning it may take ‘a few days’ to count votes: ‘This insanity has to stop’ | Fox News
> 
> 
> Twitter users balked after the White House declared that the 2022 Midterm's results may not be fully processed on election night, as many recalled quicker past elections.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com




Well, Trump somehow started to count votes 6 months before anybody actually voted in the 2020 election.  I think he used a method adjacent to how he declassified documents.  Counting votes after people actually voted is an elite democrat conspiracy.


----------



## shadow puppet

Popped up in my FB memories today.  Pretty much matches my thoughts today.


----------



## Yoused

_No, no, I said vote with ballots, b*a*llots_

*Bond was set Monday morning for a Morgan Twp. man arrested on suspicion of murder after his neighbor was found shot to death Saturday in Okeana.
…
The victim’s wife … tells the (911) dispatcher they were cutting grass and working in the yard when she came inside to let the dog out. That’s when she said she heard gunshots.
“I look in the backyard and that man is walking away from my husband and my husband is on the ground,” the woman says “He has come over like four times confronting my husband because he thought he was a Democrat, Why, why … Please, I don’t understand.”*​


----------



## shadow puppet

Kari Lake is so cringe.  I really cannot stand her.  Nor would I ever consider living in Arizona.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590072276866981888/


----------



## fooferdoggie

shadow puppet said:


> Kari Lake is so cringe.  I really cannot stand her.  Nor would I ever consider living in Arizona.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590072276866981888/



big talk little mind. how would you reform the media? make them all like fox and Oan?


----------



## Edd

shadow puppet said:


> Kari Lake is so cringe.  I really cannot stand her.  Nor would I ever consider living in Arizona.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590072276866981888/



Inspiring message. She’s horrific.


----------



## DT

And why is everything some kind of "_I'm just going to fuck with you and not perform any actual governance_ ..."

It's going to be anti-media crusades,  empty investigations,  impeachments,  meanwhile,  women lose rights,  LGBTQ people suffer,  healthcare falls apart, the infrastructure crumbles, BUT HERF DERF WE MADE THE LIBS CRY.


----------



## shadow puppet

My older brother is texting me saying if Scary Snake loses (his nic for Kari Lake), he's sure she'd fit right in at Mustang Ranch.

I'm so depressed right now thinking women are going back to the 1950's (among other things), I needed the laugh.


----------



## shadow puppet

I'm extremely curious who & what all these young voters are voting for.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590089910475980800/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590054202008817664/


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> I'm extremely curious who & what all these young voters are voting for.





Telling Congress to take green energy and climate change seriously.

Telling Congress to juice this capitalist economy for the next 20 years by forgiving college debt.  Yeah, it will work out for the better over that time span.  People my age had college debt too but it wasn't privatized and the interest wasn't tacked onto principal to make sure you graduated as a securitizable asset FFS.  We paid ours off in about six years on average. Not easy but not crippling like now.  Take that weight off the backs of three generations and see this country really take off again.

Doing something about the astronomical cost of a college education and smashing the myth that you have to compete 24/7/366 for 12 years to end up indebted for life to an "elite" 4-year school for your degree to mean anything.

Showing up to force a national codification of abortion rights.

Ditching the 2020 election-deniers from office. 

Well anyway that's what youngsters who called me while they were phone banking for Dems said when we got to chatting.  Was interesting...


----------



## Eric

Well then, looks like things are going swimmingly today.









						Poll worker seen wearing MAGA hat at poll station in South Bend
					

A poll worker was seen wearing a ‘Make America Great Again’ hat at Montessori Academy today and it had voters questioning whether the visible support for Donald Trump and the republican party is considered ‘electioneering’ or influencing voters in any way.




					abc57.com
				




https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590120076799201280/


----------



## ronntaylor

Eric said:


> Well then, looks like things are going swimmingly today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poll worker seen wearing MAGA hat at poll station in South Bend
> 
> 
> A poll worker was seen wearing a ‘Make America Great Again’ hat at Montessori Academy today and it had voters questioning whether the visible support for Donald Trump and the republican party is considered ‘electioneering’ or influencing voters in any way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc57.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590120076799201280/



Some commentators say he's also a polling station judge. Which means he can't be forced to take it off unless the polling station judge says so. Which means he ain't telling himself to take it off.


----------



## Citysnaps

Early numbers are looking good, so far.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> Well then, looks like things are going swimmingly today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poll worker seen wearing MAGA hat at poll station in South Bend
> 
> 
> A poll worker was seen wearing a ‘Make America Great Again’ hat at Montessori Academy today and it had voters questioning whether the visible support for Donald Trump and the republican party is considered ‘electioneering’ or influencing voters in any way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc57.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590120076799201280/



so republicans don't care and its too late to do anything. another election Denyer.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Republicans cleaning up in Florida. Still way too early to see how it’s going to turn out, but Florida needs some work on behalf of democrats to figure out how to regain some vote. 

It’s looking good for Warnock and Fetterman though. Their early numbers are running ahead of Biden.


----------



## ronntaylor

Not too surprises so far. I knew Demings would lose in Florida since Crist would be dead-weight for Dems. The National Dems were totally useless in Florida. At least it was good to see a young Dem win, becoming the 1st Rep. from Gen-Z.

Moore's win in Maryland was a good, yet predictable win. The GOP in the state were too looney.

Taking a long, hot shower to prepare for the races closing at 9pm. I'm not discounting a GOP upset here in NYS as the current placeholder Dem is a walking disaster. She gave the GQP candidate a good sound bite that played constantly in his ads for the last week or two. Very reminiscent of Youngkin's win in Virginia, my 2nd state.


----------



## DT

Yeah, Frost, that was at least refreshing, ugh, no surprises with DeSantis and Rubio.


----------



## GermanSuplex

If Lake, Oz and Walker are all defeated, that would be a huge blow to Trump.


----------



## shadow puppet

No.  Just NO.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590159328098783233/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Split tickets in Georgia.. Kemp is doing better than Walker… people are voting for both Kemp and Warnock. Trump is a drag on the party.


----------



## shadow puppet

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590156863013879808/


----------



## GermanSuplex

shadow puppet said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590156863013879808/




Republicans hate those who making a living off their father’s name.

Not surprising though.


----------



## Yoused

Florida officials have warned that monitors from the federal government are not permitted to be observers in Florida polling places because it might undermine confidence in the election.


----------



## Eric

It's on.









						Trump Threatens to Reveal Unflattering Information About DeSantis if He Runs
					

“I know more about him than anybody other than perhaps his wife,” the former president reportedly said.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## shadow puppet

Eric said:


> It's on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump Threatens to Reveal Unflattering Information About DeSantis if He Runs
> 
> 
> “I know more about him than anybody other than perhaps his wife,” the former president reportedly said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



Yep.
Let the games begin.


----------



## shadow puppet

I really can't stand Yang but I've always enjoyed the Hoarse Whisperer.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590165150761644032/


----------



## GermanSuplex

There’s no red wave except in Florida, and the maps were just redrawn to their advantage. Dems are holding on well elsewhere.


----------



## ronntaylor

shadow puppet said:


> No.  Just NO.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590159328098783233/



When I first moved to Flushing, my original polling site was inside of a RC Church. Pissed me TF off. I complained and was essentially told to pound sand. One of the reasons why I became an Election Day Worker. That 1st Flushing election I encountered a poll worker telling a young Asian woman that she could not assist an older Asian woman with her ballot. Which I knew was an outright lie. The EDW tried to raise her voice with me, so I spoke with the supervisor to make sure she informed other EDWs that the law allows assistance and that workers need to be more accommodating.

Unfortunately, many of the Republican EDW I encountered were A-holes that went out of their way to not assist voters perceived as Dems. Luckily the supervisor Andre was on his toes and put as many of them away from direct contact with voters. And sent a couple home over the years. I don't miss that work at all.


----------



## shadow puppet

Sigh.  I knew it was a long shot but I really wanted to see Beto take out Abbott.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Trump-backed Darren Bailey lost the IL Governor race. It’s not looking good for Kari Lake in AZ or Mastriano in PA.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Lauren Boebert may lose!


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> Lauren Boebert may lose!



dude she has already lost he race with sanity.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> Split tickets in Georgia.. Kemp is doing better than Walker… people are voting for both Kemp and Warnock. Trump is a drag on the party.




His veiled threat against De Santis won't help.  In fact it will dismay the Republican Party leadership.    Trump doesn't get it that after these midterms, his marginal utility to the GOP is zero.

He has so much baggage, so much legal jeopardy, shoots from the hip and impulsively attacks Republicans who are sitting members of both houses of Congress.  Now he's made it clear he'll also attack any frontrunner from his own party in advance of 2024 presidential primaries.

The Sunday talk shows may soon begin to feature Rs putting yards of daylight between themselves and Trump.  It was going to be a little squirmy for the party to signal it was moving on if Trump actually announced a run for 2024 before the DoJ concludes assorted criminal investigations.  But for Trump just to bring thuggish insinuations that he could take out a contender for the GOP 2024 nomination before the votes are even counted in the midterms,  well...   that makes it simpler for the Rs to stick a fork in Trump and say he's done. 

The Rs may not particularly care who carries their flag into the 2024 race for the White House, but they'll like to have a short primary season and get behind the candidate of choice.  So they'll not be pleased that this millstone around their neck, Trump, is trying to drown a likely 2024 frontrunner and split the party two years before the primaries.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Mastriano loses to Shapiro. 

That bodes well for Fetterman, who looks to be leading Oz by a few points. Two major Trump ass-kissers losing the state would be great.

The elections seemed to have ran mostly smooth today. Republicans will be more formidable without Trump, Americans prefer their fiscal policies (God knows why).


----------



## shadow puppet

I can relate.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590006089541914624/


----------



## lizkat

Florida not a total loss..   Maxwell Frost won a seat in the House.

25-Year-Old Florida Democrat Secures Generation Z’s First House Seat



> Mr. Frost is a progressive Democrat whose campaign focused on issues of particular salience to many young voters: gun violence, climate change, abortion rights and Medicare for all. His background is in activism, including work with the student-led anti-gun-violence movement March for Our Lives.


----------



## lizkat

Wow.  Maggie Hassan is hanging onto her Senate seat, they called the race for her in NH.


Edit:  adding report from WaPo

Women voters power Hassan to victory in New Hampshire



> Democratic Sen. Maggie Hassan cruised to a comfortable victory over Republican challenger Don Bolduc in New Hampshire because of strong support from multiple key groups including women, college graduates and political moderates.
> 
> Women strongly preferred Hassan over Bolduc, according to early exit polling from Edison Research, with roughly *6 in 10 women supporting Hassan compared with about 4 in 10 who backed Bolduc*. Ideological moderates also preferred Hassan by a similar margin.
> 
> Similar shares of Granite Staters — roughly 4 in 10 — cited inflation and abortion as their most important issues. *Hassan won about 9 in 10 voters who listed abortion as their top issue and about 3 in 10 of those who cared most about inflation.*


----------



## GermanSuplex

Kornacki pointing out dems may well hold the house. Wow, if that happened, the Trumpers will explode.


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> Kornacki pointing out dems may well hold the house. Wow, if that happened, the Trumpers will explode.



let the hundreds of lawsuits begin. the courts are going to be packed with election deniers.


----------



## shadow puppet

Noooo!!!  So sad.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590193189973118976/


----------



## ronntaylor

Georgia will be anxious till tomorrow probably. I think Warnock pulls it out when mail-in and absentee ballots are counted. But remember, in Georgia a candidate has to win more than 50% of the vote. It may lead to a runoff on December 6th.

I think Fetterman pulls it out in PA with mail-in and absentee ballots later on.

I think it's getting close to Barnes losing a great opportunity in Wisconsin, even with mail-in and absentee ballots outstanding coming in later.

Not sure I'll stay up for Nevada to see if Dems keep the seat there.

It's looking good for the Dems to keep the Senate though.

Still worried about the House, but not as much. We may lose two Dem seats in NYS. But that may have to wait till tomorrow afternoon or later for final tallies.


----------



## shadow puppet

I would LOVE to see this go down.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590198855429402625/


----------



## GermanSuplex

ronntaylor said:


> Georgia will be anxious till tomorrow probably. I think Warnock pulls it out when mail-in and absentee ballots are counted. But remember, in Georgia a candidate has to win more than 50% of the vote. It may lead to a runoff on December 6th.
> 
> I think Fetterman pulls it out in PA with mail-in and absentee ballots later on.
> 
> I think it's getting close to Barnes losing a great opportunity in Wisconsin, even with mail-in and absentee ballots outstanding coming in later.
> 
> Not sure I'll stay up for Nevada to see if Dems keep the seat there.
> 
> It's looking good for the Dems to keep the Senate though.
> 
> Still worried about the House, but not as much. We may lose two Dem seats in NYS. But that may have to wait till tomorrow afternoon or later for final tallies.




Neither Oz or Walker are doing the numbers Trump did in 2020, and he lost both states. It will be close, but I think dems pick up both seats.


----------



## ronntaylor

GermanSuplex said:


> Neither Oz or Walker are doing the numbers Trump did in 2020, and he lost both states. It will be close, but I think dems pick up both seats.



I think Fetterman wins outright tonight. Warnock may have to wait till tomorrow afternoon to be projected the winner with 50%+1


----------



## GermanSuplex

NBC projecting 219 republican seats plus or minus 13. That tells us nothing, except the dems have a great chance of holding the house. It’s going to be very close.

It’s not a good night for republicans, I’m reading sane and sober comments in the Breitbart articles… they’re rallying behind Florida and DeSantis (it was a good night for them, gerrymandered or not). 

The 2024 promaries start essentially now. Trump is proven toxic, only some of his folks will win, and this isn’t the referendum on Biden the 2010 and 2018 midterms were on Obama and Trump.

Imagine if dems picked up a seat or two.. wow.


----------



## lizkat

ronntaylor said:


> I think it's getting close to Barnes losing a great opportunity in Wisconsin, even with mail-in and absentee ballots outstanding coming in later.




I'll be sad if Barnes loses; it's way past time for Ron Johnson to depart American politics.



ronntaylor said:


> Not sure I'll stay up for Nevada to see if Dems keep the seat there.



Still hoping the unions will have got out the vote for her.


----------



## ronntaylor

lizkat said:


> I'll be sad if Barnes loses; it's way past time for Ron Johnson to depart American politics.
> 
> 
> Still hoping the unions will have got out the vote for her.



I'm staying up till 1am to see the start of race calling in NV, and updates in AZ. Then I'm sleeping. Looks like the Dems didn't do as bad as expected and will hold the Senate and may.... *MAY* barely lose the House. No Red Wave. At best, a Red Ripple.


----------



## GermanSuplex

NBC calls it for Fetterman!


----------



## lizkat

ronntaylor said:


> I'm staying up till 1am to see the start of race calling in NV, and updates in AZ. Then I'm sleeping. Looks like the Dems didn't do as bad as expected and will hold the Senate and may.... *MAY* barely lose the House. No Red Wave. At best, a Red Ripple.




Yeah.  Probably means all the Rs can do in the next Congress is throw hissy fits from the House side.  A Gym Jordan reality TV show,  absentmindedly overseen by McCarthy and Stefanik who once free of required allegiance to Trump will be focused on trying to advance their own interests. 



GermanSuplex said:


> NBC calls it for Fetterman!




Trump really hurt the Republicans in these races, by some of his endorsements and campaigning and otherwise sniping from the sidelines.   He's toast... and Mitch McConnell scores points for having made noises about how the GOP needed to be more focused on "quality candidates."


----------



## shadow puppet

I’d join him.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590184432623046656/


----------



## GermanSuplex

I wonder how republicans feel about Trump announcing in six days after tonight’s events…


----------



## shadow puppet

GermanSuplex said:


> I wonder how republicans feel about Trump announcing in six days after tonight’s events…



Probably shitting their pants trying to figure out a way to tell him NO.


----------



## GermanSuplex

shadow puppet said:


> Probably shitting their pants trying to figure out a way to tell him NO.




If republicans had made a good faith effort to get rid of Trump after January 6, or at least distance themselves from him, they may have nominated better candidates and won more convincingly this evening.

Instead, they may have blown the midterms and in doing so, they’re making Biden and the dems look far more effective.


----------



## ronntaylor

I was planning to hop in the bed at 1am. But as I finally prepare to sleep, it looks like the Dems will keep the Senate with a possible runoff in GA. I still think Warnock will get 50%+1 to outright win there (outstanding votes in Fulton & Cobb counties where he's crushing Wanker Walker). So Dems keep the Senate 51-49, most likely.

The House will depend on CA. But it looks like maybe McCarthy becomes House Majority Leader at 219-216. But it also can slip through his hands. I remember Santos being declared the winner on Long Island two years ago and then losing once mail-in and absentee ballots were counted. It's a possible case of deja vu all over again for him. And I think there's a strong possibility of a Dem pickup in CA by Chen over Steele (only ~45% counted, so who knows).

It wouldn't surprise me if Pelosi maintains the gavel for Dems: 218-217 or even 219-216.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> Kornacki pointing out dems may well hold the house. Wow, if that happened, the Trumpers will explode.




Well actually what will happen is that the RNC will implode...     Trump did this to his party.

Even if the Rs take the House, McCarthy is gonna have trouble asserting his right to be Speaker.  The margin he was projecting ahead of the elections is not even remotely possible now.  



ronntaylor said:


> t wouldn't surprise me if Pelosi maintains the gavel for Dems: 218-217 or even 219-216.




Yeah it's true there are a handful of CDs leaning red now that  were blue and have enough ballots out yet to stay blue.   My own CD in NY-19 is one of them. I can't read it well though because it's newly redrawn.   Some of the population is in my county which has a purple tendency and is often part of why it flips now and then.  Keeping fingers crossed.   I think there are about 15k ballots out and the R is leading by 6k.


----------



## Edd

NH kept both of their seats for Dems. I’m just going to spend the day enjoying that. This was a foregone conclusion to me two weeks ago and then those polls came out last week and got me all riled up. It made no sense that NH would send two Trump goons to Congress.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> If republicans had made a good faith effort to get rid of Trump after January 6, or at least distance themselves from him, they may have nominated better candidates and won more convincingly this evening.
> 
> Instead, they may have blown the midterms and in doing so, they’re making Biden and the dems look far more effective.




I’ll just say adding "If you’re a Trump supporter and would like to leave a death threat press 6" to their answering service would probably be an appropriate idea to help with efficiency along with bringing that necessity to the public’s attention.  Nobody is buying that you think Trump is a totally stable genius, unless you‘re a MTG conspiracy sponge.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Good to see Tim Ryan concede graciously with his speech. Republicans are being taught a lesson - democracy matters and abortion rights matter. You can lose even if the majority of voters stand with your policies or party. DeSantis and Kemp won decisively. If republicans try to keep the big lie alive, they will further erode their chances and you will see more split ticket votes.

If we can hold off Kari Lake, that would be great for defeating Trumpism. But even if she wins, it was not a good night for republicans. In a midterm, with inflation… Biden’s legislative victories, demeanor and the republicans overturning Roe while pushing lies and showing total subservience to Trump has hurt them three elections in a row now, and they’ve never seemed to understand Trump never had a majority of voter confidence from the start, and it gets worse for republicans each time he is on the ballot, either directly or indirectly.

This should have been a 20 seat pickup for republicans. Instead, they’ll be lucky to hold power at all, with no real referendum on the Biden admin that is convincing.

*Edit - You seriously have to wonder how many races republicans could have picked up if there hadn’t been so many COVID deaths.


----------



## Huntn

At least no red wave, but the House…


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I'm relieved it wasn't a bloodbath and we might just get some recounts (cause that's gone so well for Republicans in the past).


----------



## lizkat

Meanwhile the beat goes on in a nearby rural county with Rs teaching how it's done at micro-local-level.  Just write someone in, or run unopposed to get a foot on the ladder.   Unofficial results in local paper:

"• Sherburne — No one was​on the ballot for the town jus-​tice position and two write-in​ballots were cast. The result​was not available by press​time. Emily Acee was elected​to be a library trustee with 89​votes."​


----------



## shadow puppet

The contrast is both stark and disturbing.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590281438783414272/


----------



## Eric

shadow puppet said:


> The contrast is both stark and disturbing.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590281438783414272/



Republicans say it's rigged beforehand, that way they can say "See, I told you". Glad to see these nutjobs getting their fragile asses kicked.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Lindsey Graham admitting he's learned nothing...

_NBC anchor Lester Holt asked whether the Republican Party’s mediocre performance in the midterm was a result of the "Donald Trump effect," meaning association with the former president may have hurt Republican candidates. 

Graham responded "not really," still suggesting that the midterm was a "referendum on Biden," adding "If we take back the House, and we get the Senate majority, that is a very good night. A wave would have been New Hampshire and Colorado."









						Sen. Graham expresses disappointment about the midterms: ‘Definitely not a Republican wave’
					

Sen. Lindsey Graham noted that the midterm election was not the red wave of Republican victories that many expected, but still said it would likely be a good night.




					www.foxnews.com
				



_
Two things can be true at once. This could be a slight referendum on Biden, but clearly Trump was dragging the party down. Imagine if they had a referendum AND listened to America on abortion issues AND separated themselves from Trump.

Biden has outperformed in the midterms. The democrats bucked historical trends. They didn't do that just out of luck. Trump is the biggest reason.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Win or lose, the fact that Walker got so many votes is appalling.  The man is a lying moron I'd put above Trump in those departments.  Between him and MTG, WTF is wrong with Georgia?


----------



## Huntn

Meanwhile in Moronic _Have My Cake and Eat It Too, _Donny Land: _If my guys win, I deserve all of the credit,  if they lose I deserve none of the blame. _


​


----------



## Eric

While I know it won't be a popular opinion here, I have never been a fan of one party controlling it all because neither side has incentive to work with each other on common goals. If it ends up with a balance they will be forced to work together, maybe less partisanship and attacks and more working for the people. Just my .02.


----------



## shadow puppet

So damn close.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590364074545942529/


----------



## Huntn

Eric said:


> While I know it won't be a popular opinion here, I have never been a fan of one party controlling it all because neither side has incentive to work with each other on common goals. If it ends up with a balance they will be forced to work together, maybe less partisanship and attacks and more working for the people. Just my .02.



Normally I could agree with you except when I look at the anti-democratic Republicans, we have no room in our politics, society for people who think corruption, lieing, cheating to win, and vested themselves in big fat POS. Now the POS may be in our rear view mirrors, but the stench and little turds who want to be big turds are still floating around.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Trump blasted across media spectrum over Republicans' midterms performance: 'Biggest loser tonight'
					

Former President Trump was the subject of media barbs across the spectrum on Tuesday night as Republicans he backed lost or underperformed in key races.




					www.foxnews.com
				




There, they said it.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> While I know it won't be a popular opinion here, I have never been a fan of one party controlling it all because neither side has incentive to work with each other on common goals. If it ends up with a balance they will be forced to work together, maybe less partisanship and attacks and more working for the people. Just my .02.




It hasn’t worked out that way for at least two decades.


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> It hasn’t worked out that way for at least two decades.



Yep, always "us vs them" (regardless of party) and it's why we never get anything meaningful done.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Using Georgia as an example, they have a population of about 10 million. Of those about 4 million people voted in the senate race. Based on how close the race is the winner will get about 2 million votes. 20% of the population is nowhere near “Half the state!”. You could probably put roughly the same calculation across the country. My war cry for the year is STOP THE “HALF THE COUNTRY” RHETORIC!


----------



## shadow puppet

Gotta love Bradley Whitford.  Mueller (Allison Gill), isn't bad either.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590390976048418818/


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Using Georgia as an example, they have a population of about 10 million. Of those about 4 million people voted in the senate race. Based on how close the race is the winner will get about 2 million votes. 20% of the population is nowhere near “Half the state!”. You could probably put roughly the same calculation across the country. My war cry for the year is STOP THE “HALF THE COUNTRY” RHETORIC!




Well it becomes more important for winners to listen to all of their constituents when a race is close.  Polarization has narrowed margins over the past three or so cycles.  Races that were 66-34 for the Rs in right leaning districts in NY six years ago might have popped up as 57-45 next time around and now, hmm..  51-46-3.     That should tell a Republican it doesn't really work just to ignore angry phone calls from constituents who did not vote for him...   and it suggests that engagement in clown shows like repealing ACA 70 times might not be part of a winning re-election campaign next time out.

But the Rs are slow learners and apparently first have to finish trying out the option to maybe overturn unwanted election results?    Actually election results this time might be sending a message to quit trying to go there.

Meanwhile there is more pressure from progressives to make voting by mail or dropbox a permanent feature, consider ranked voting, etc.   The USA likes being a democracy even if we have been trained in the more recent past that the only point of voting is to win and then ignore "losers."  We all have to quit being like that to get back to more effective representative government.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

shadow puppet said:


> Gotta love Bradley Whitford.  Mueller (Allison Gill), isn't bad either.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590390976048418818/




With Democrats’ shit messaging on inflation this is no small miracle.  Probably would have been a blue wave if it wasn’t for inflation. Hopefully they don’t remain asleep at the wheel with that for the next 2 years, especially with the fed continuing to fight top level class warfare.


----------



## shadow puppet

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> With Democrats’ shit messaging on inflation this is no small miracle.  Probably would have been a blue wave if it wasn’t for inflation.



Apparently it's the best midterm performance for a first-term Democratic president since John F. Kennedy. Perhaps even Franklin Roosevelt.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

shadow puppet said:


> Apparently it's the best midterm performance for a first-term Democratic president since John F. Kennedy. Perhaps even Franklin Roosevelt.




The world’s biggest man baby ex leader is already attempting “biggest inauguration in history” type propaganda on this, pulling a specific number of wins out of his ass that nobody can seem to connect the dots to.


----------



## GermanSuplex

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590193409897078784/

Ouch.

Comment sections from Breitbart to Fox News are jumping to DeSantis and away from Trump. People posting "Trump 2024" or not critiquing him are the rarity, not the norm. Could be an anomaly or that could be the true sentiment of republicans. The elections seem to have ran mostly fine, and its going to be hard for republicans in GA or elsewhere to claim fraud when so many of their other candidates and incumbents won. The numbers tell the story - Trump-picked candidates fared more poorly, and those who distanced themselves and ran as more establishment conservatives who didn't focus on election lies did better.

Both sides also need to retool what people care about - abortion is a big issue and inflation is a big issue. Crime was not, even though republicans talk about it too much and democrats don't talk about it enough.

Part of me thinks republicans will start jumping off the Trump cult, but part of me also knows we've been here before, where republicans have a perfect opportunity to distance themselves from Trump, only to quickly develop amnesia and think he's their only salvation.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590193409897078784/
> 
> Ouch.
> 
> Comment sections from Breitbart to Fox News are jumping to DeSantis and away from Trump. People posting "Trump 2024" or not critiquing him are the rarity, not the norm. Could be an anomaly or that could be the true sentiment of republicans. The elections seem to have ran mostly fine, and its going to be hard for republicans in GA or elsewhere to claim fraud when so many of their other candidates and incumbents won. The numbers tell the story - Trump-picked candidates fared more poorly, and those who distanced themselves and ran as more establishment conservatives who didn't focus on election lies did better.
> 
> Both sides also need to retool what people care about - abortion is a big issue and inflation is a big issue. Crime was not, even though republicans talk about it too much and democrats don't talk about it enough.
> 
> Part of me thinks republicans will start jumping off the Trump cult, but part of me also knows we've been here before, where republicans have a perfect opportunity to distance themselves from Trump, only to quickly develop amnesia and think he's their only salvation.





It would be sweet justice if his supporters turned their back on him because he's no longer useful, like Trump has done to virtually everybody in his life.


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> Apparently it's the best midterm performance for a first-term Democratic president since John F. Kennedy. Perhaps even Franklin Roosevelt.




The diminution of what might have been a red wave  is on Trump and on a GOP leadership that took itself into a cul de sac by re-upping on him for 2020 -- and then not only tolerated what ensued when he lost the election and tried to overturn it,  but actually defended him and other election deniers, including some that did win their races last night.  The damage to effective representation in Congress is not over yet,  but that also means the damage to the future of the GOP is not over yet either.

 Let the clown shows begin if McCarthy gets the gavel.  Constituents from 2020 had already tried to send a message that they were sick of clown shows and wanted concrete legislative progress on stuff like renewable energy,  infrastructure and domestic job prospects.   One wonders if the frontrunners for the GOP 2024 presidential nomination will try to have some input towards toning down the behavior of a GOP-led House as time goes on.   Negative reverse coattails are a possibility if the Republican leadership overall cannot keep its House caucus from just acting out desire to burn down the federal government over "so much winning" that in fact looks like they will barely have got a majority.

By all rights since "voting with your wallet" is key during hard economic times,  the midterms should have been a tsunami for the Republicans.   The honchos were smart enough not really to expect that,  but no one expected such a muted GOP level of winning... except maybe Mitch McConnell.


----------



## shadow puppet

lizkat said:


> *The diminution of what might have been a red wave  is on Trump and on a GOP leadership that took itself into a cul de sac by re-upping on him for 202*0 -- and then not only tolerated what ensued when he lost the election and tried to overturn it,  but actually defended him and other election deniers, including some that did win their races last night.  The damage to effective representation in Congress is not over yet,  but that also means the damage to the future of the GOP is not over yet either.



Exactly.  Although I don't fully agree with the first part of his statement, even this Trump fluffer agrees that the GOP needs an overhaul.  Not only did they not get their promised red wave, the voters basically indicted the Republican party.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590233789137289218/


----------



## fooferdoggie

shadow puppet said:


> Exactly.  Although I don't fully agree with the first part of his statement, even this Trump fluffer agrees that the GOP needs an overhaul.  Not only did they not get their promised red wave, the voters basically indicted the Republican party.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590233789137289218/



I don't think republicans know what a mirror is so good luck.


----------



## Herdfan

Cmaier said:


> It hasn’t worked out that way for at least two decades.




Not since Clinton.  

Unless is it about starting a war somewhere.


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> .... even this Trump fluffer agrees that the GOP needs an overhaul.  Not only did they not get their promised red wave, the voters basically indicted the Republican party.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590233789137289218/




Fox and GOP pols saying it's time to move on from Trump likely make Mar a Lago servers edgy.


​


----------



## lizkat

More results in Michigan.   That state is getting even for a bunch of extreme militia guys having plotted to kidnap their governor.   Not only did she get re-elected,  the voters just flipped the Michigan state senate blue for the first time in 40 years.  

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590240390879539200/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

lizkat said:


> Fox and GOP pols saying it's time to move on from Trump likely make Mar a Lago servers edgy.
> 
> View attachment 19043​






So I guess there won't be an orange wave either.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> So I guess there won't be an orange wave either.



no but maybe a red wave of catsup flowing down a wall?


----------



## shadow puppet

These three chatting together is making me laugh.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> no but maybe a red wave of catsup flowing down a wall?




I dunno.  He seems to have his river of DeNile workin' pretty good already.   Thinks he won big and where he didn't,  it was someone else's fault or else, as he described DeSantis' sweep in Florida, "a mistake."


----------



## shadow puppet

The latest from Nevada.  Looks like this will take awhile.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590434841010778112/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

fooferdoggie said:


> no but maybe a red wave of catsup flowing down a wall?




Clint Eastwood will replace the empty chair with a ketchup stained wall for his next RNC speech.


----------



## Citysnaps

Waiting for trump's Nov. 15th "very big announcement."   

Also hoping AG Garland will soon have something bigly to announce.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Wild card!









						San Bernardino County vote to secede from California takes slim lead
					

Measure EE, which would allow the San Bernardino County Board of Supervisors to start the process of seceding from California, is on the ballot.



					www.vvdailypress.com
				






What’s next, Austin TX votes to be governed by new media indie rock bands?


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Whatever.
> 
> I all know is that come Wednesday morning I am likely to way happier than you.   And it’s not going to be just because of MAGA individuals.
> 
> It is going to be because the people are getting tired of the progressive push left.   Hispanics are bailing to the GOP in record numbers and the Dems pissed of the mama bears and they are returning after their vote against mean tweets.
> 
> Enjoy



Thanks, I am enjoying my Wednesday!


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Looks like Progressive Summer Lee will/did win despite the Anti-Palestinian super PAC AIPAC dropping at least a million on ads against her.  This should make Kanye happy.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Kari Lake eating into Hobbs' lead... razor-thin race with a lot of votes left to be counted. Lake being defeated would be the cherry on top for Trump-backed candidates being defeated, but she may pull it off.

Republicans need a big win, so whatever. She doesn't seem restrained enough to be a major national candidate, but I'll hold my breath on that after what we've endured the last few years.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Herdfan said:


> I all know is that come Wednesday morning I am likely to way happier than you.   And it’s not going to be just because of MAGA individuals.
> 
> It is going to be because the people are getting tired of the progressive push left.   Hispanics are bailing to the GOP in record numbers and the Dems pissed of the mama bears and they are returning after their vote against mean tweets.
> 
> Enjoy



Most people in the U.S. have been conditioned to fear that which would benefit them the most, namely a "progressive push left." They've been convinced that the government taking more of a role in their well being means a loss of freedoms. When you watch a travel show about a European democracy, the difference is obvious. The people there don't live in fear of going bankrupt if they get sick, many have been provided with a college education because the country values an educated populace - they don't spend half of their working lives digging out of debt. The transportation systems in countries like Sweden put ours to shame. The reason is that many of those governments view their mandate to be to make life better for their people. You may be happy if the GOP does well, but what it will mean is continued attacks on Social Security, Medicare and the Affordable Care Act, continued deterioration of our infrastructure, more tax cuts for their billionaire donor class and of course more voting restrictions.


----------



## shadow puppet

GermanSuplex said:


> Kari Lake eating into Hobbs' lead... razor-thin race with a lot of votes left to be counted. Lake being defeated would be the cherry on top for Trump-backed candidates being defeated, but she may pull it off.
> 
> Republicans need a big win, so whatever. She doesn't seem restrained enough to be a major national candidate, but I'll hold my breath on that after what we've endured the last few years.



I was just reading this and find it scary AF.  Lake is off the chain & we don't need anymore of her ilk.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

After this I predict Fox will be a lot less glowing towards Trump and his handpicked minions. In fact they are probably quite relieved they can start kicking him to the curb.


----------



## lizkat

mac_in_tosh said:


> Most people in the U.S. have been conditioned to fear that which would benefit them the most, namely a "progressive push left." They've been convinced that the government taking more of a role in their well being means a loss of freedoms. When you watch a travel show about a European democracy, the difference is obvious. The people there don't live in fear of going bankrupt if they get sick, many have been provided with a college education because the country values an educated populace - they don't spend half of their working lives digging out of debt. The transportation systems in countries like Sweden put ours to shame. The reason is that many of those governments view their mandate to be to make life better for their people. You may be happy if the GOP does well, but what it will mean is continued attacks on Social Security, Medicare and the Affordable Care Act, continued deterioration of our infrastructure, more tax cuts for their billionaire donor class and of course more voting restrictions.




Great post.  Also the Rs of our time have accelerated pushback on environmental regulation.  It's where they excel at digging up the occasional anecdote about the ruined livelihood of some small biz owner stymied by having to respect an endangered toad or whatever, in what was going to be his expanded parking lot...  meanwhile intentionally glossing over the catastrophic toll on clean air, water and soil of  wink-and-nod behavior towards industrial polluters in the USA.  We're still doing cleanups from when the EPA was first passed...

And:  the Republicans have conveniently forgotten that Nixon was who started up the EPA due to public pressure.   Not sure what makes  them think that pressure no longer exists.  Everyone wants clean air and water and soil underneath where their kids play and go to school.

Dems will at least need to message more loudly whenever the Federal Register prints up another impending Republiclan-engineered workaround of environmental protection rules. This especially now,  given that the Supreme Court has signaled it may be  inclined to declare those rules unconstitutional (since some are indeed hard to work around, having been entwined with supporting legislation, duh). 

It will come down to doing more than messaging then.  Dems will have to take environmental protection arguments and bills back to the floors of Congress and the conference rooms of K street lobbyists.  Among other things some light may shine on any Dems who have managed to take campaign contributions from would-be polluters while hoping that the Rs would take the heat when the public gets all fired up over some scheme to strip-mine new parts of national parks.


----------



## ronntaylor

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Looks like Progressive Summer Lee will/did win despite the Anti-Palestinian super PAC AIPAC dropping at least a million on ads against her.  This should make Kanye happy.



AIPAC's racist shenanigans backfired. Let's hope this right-wing PAC fades away like racist, right-wing groups in the past.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Smiling Fetterman Asks Oz If He’d Mind Slowly Repeating Concession For 5th Time
					

PITTSBURGH–Speaking to the Republican candidate over the phone early Wednesday morning, a smiling John Fetterman reportedly asked Mehmet Oz if he would mind slowly repeating his concession for the fifth time. “I don’t know if you knew this, but I’ve been experiencing some auditory processing...




					www.theonion.com
				




PITTSBURGH–Speaking to the Republican candidate over the phone early Wednesday morning, a smiling John Fetterman reportedly asked Mehmet Oz if he would mind slowly repeating his concession for the fifth time. “I don’t know if you knew this, but I’ve been experiencing some auditory processing difficulties–would you mind repeating yourself again?” said Fetterman, who settled into an armchair as the phone call with his defeated opponent passed the 45-minute mark. “I’m sorry, I didn’t quite get that. A little slower please. You said something about losing? I just want to be absolutely certain I’m hearing this right.” At press time, Fetterman suggested that perhaps he could accept the concession in person if he were ever in New Jersey.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Dr. Oz will have lots of time for preparing crudite in one of his many homes. Perhaps he can hopscotch to another state and set up another run. The sad part is he’s probably a level-headed guy, even if I disagree with him. But he had no charisma, zero personality - strange, because those things are what made him famous - and was insanely out of touch. There was no enthusiasm for him, he was a cookie-cutter, rubber stamp for the republican agenda, which would have been enough, but he was also a total rug for Trump.

A boring but acceptable candidate, but a total opportunistic carpetbagger with no connection to the average American. Not to take away his accomplishments - but there was no morphing that into anything relatable. He didn’t run because he was deeply concerned about healthcare, about health in general, etc. He’s an accomplished doctor, celebrity and TV personality who sold quack medicine and I guess got bored and decided to try to snag an open senate seat in a state he has as much to do with as I do Indiana, which is virtually nothing other than living next to it on a map.

Really glad Fetterman defeated him. Amongst the battles the left and right have over the mental faculties of Trump and Biden (ridiculous, but that’s where we are), Fetterman is unique in that there’s nothing abnormal about his recovery, it’s just that they usually don’t play out in public. But it has nothing to do with his ability to legislate, which is never what the debates about Biden or Trump are about.

Really glad Fetterman defeated him. JD Vance was one too many of that type of opportunistic carpetbagging.


----------



## shadow puppet

Please forgive me.  I couldn't resist.
I'll see myself out the side entrance.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

GermanSuplex said:


> Dr. Oz will have lots of time for preparing crudite in one of his many homes. Perhaps he can hopscotch to another state and set up another run. The sad part is he’s probably a level-headed guy, even if I disagree with him. But he had no charisma, zero personality - strange, because those things are what made him famous - and was insanely out of touch. There was no enthusiasm for him, he was a cookie-cutter, rubber stamp for the republican agenda, which would have been enough, but he was also a total rug for Trump.
> 
> A boring but acceptable candidate, but a total opportunistic carpetbagger with no connection to the average American. Not to take away his accomplishments - but there was no morphing that into anything relatable. He didn’t run because he was deeply concerned about healthcare, about health in general, etc. He’s an accomplished doctor, celebrity and TV personality who sold quack medicine and I guess got bored and decided to try to snag an open senate seat in a state he has as much to do with as I do Indiana, which is virtually nothing other than living next to it on a map.
> 
> Really glad Fetterman defeated him. Amongst the battles the left and right have over the mental faculties of Trump and Biden (ridiculous, but that’s where we are), Fetterman is unique in that there’s nothing abnormal about his recovery, it’s just that they usually don’t play out in public. But it has nothing to do with his ability to legislate, which is never what the debates about Biden or Trump are about.
> 
> Really glad Fetterman defeated him. JD Vance was one too many of that type of opportunistic carpetbagging.





I wouldn't quite say Fetterman is presidential quality, but the Dem party could learn a great deal from him about how to reach those just about everybody agrees they've lost touch with.  I also see his style appealing to young voters.  He's the "I don't give a fuck" that Democrats desperately need.


----------



## shadow puppet

Oh no.  Now there's only 62 votes separating Frisch and Bobo.


----------



## Herdfan

mac_in_tosh said:


> Most people in the U.S. have been conditioned to fear that which would benefit them the most, namely a "progressive push left." They've been convinced that the government taking more of a role in their well being means a loss of freedoms. When you watch a travel show about a European democracy, the difference is obvious. The people there don't live in fear of going bankrupt if they get sick, many have been provided with a college education because the country values an educated populace - they don't spend half of their working lives digging out of debt. The transportation systems in countries like Sweden put ours to shame. The reason is that many of those governments view their mandate to be to make life better for their people. You may be happy if the GOP does well, but what it will mean is continued attacks on Social Security, Medicare and the Affordable Care Act, continued deterioration of our infrastructure, more tax cuts for their billionaire donor class and of course more voting restrictions.




Do you think the people here in the US would accept that level of taxation?  You mention healthcare.  For those who work for large companies who provide good insurance, what is in it for them?  Yes, the un or under employed will benefit, but many won't.  

As for the transportation system, we are so much more spread out than most EU countries so public transportation would be too expensive.  And in our dense cities, we do have it.  Granted something like the TGV would be great, but we live in a tort-driven society.  The first time some idiot climbs the fence and gets struck, the lawsuit would be huge.  Expect a couple a year.

I know it goes against what many, including myself, were preached to about college.  I can hear my dad saying it still.  You have to go to college to be "successful".  That's BS.  Some of the wealthiest people on this planet didn't finish college.  There are other ways than being forced to take classes in 18th century French poetry.  Why can't college be 2 years where you spend 100% of your time learning your major and not the fluff.  And not this 15 hour a week crap.  Do it like the military and treat it like a job from 8-5 or whatever.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Do you think the people here in the US would accept that level of taxation?  You mention healthcare.  For those who work for large companies who provide good insurance, what is in it for them?  Yes, the un or under employed will benefit, but many won't.
> 
> As for the transportation system, we are so much more spread out than most EU countries so public transportation would be too expensive.  And in our dense cities, we do have it.  Granted something like the TGV would be great, but we live in a tort-driven society.  The first time some idiot climbs the fence and gets struck, the lawsuit would be huge.  Expect a couple a year.
> 
> I know it goes against what many, including myself, were preached to about college.  I can hear my dad saying it still.  You have to go to college to be "successful".  That's BS.  Some of the wealthiest people on this planet didn't finish college.  There are other ways than being forced to take classes in 18th century French poetry.  Why can't college be 2 years where you spend 100% of your time learning your major and not the fluff.  And not this 15 hour a week crap.  Do it like the military and treat it like a job from 8-5 or whatever.











						Education pays, 2021 : Career Outlook: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
					

Data still show that learning leads to earnings.




					www.bls.gov


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> Education pays, 2021 : Career Outlook: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
> 
> 
> Data still show that learning leads to earnings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bls.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 19055



“Yeah, but someone who dropped out in kindergarten could technically win the lottery, so… education is for suckers.”

-typical redneck MAGA


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Do you think the people here in the US would accept that level of taxation? You mention healthcare. For those who work for large companies who provide good insurance, what is in it for them? Yes, the un or under employed will benefit, but many won't.











						Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?
					

Americans have a lower life expectancy than people in other rich countries despite paying much more for healthcare. We explore the number of factors which might explain this difference.




					ourworldindata.org


----------



## Pumbaa

Herdfan said:


> You mention healthcare. For those who work for large companies who provide good insurance, what is in it for them



Horror stories of insurance companies for example refusing to cover needed procedures, horrible out-of-pocket expenses, and out-of-network traps aside, keep in mind that the insurance is not free. The company has to pay to provide that perk, reducing the amount of money available for salaries/other perks.

Not having to depend on your current place of work for healthcare would make is easier for an employee to for example switch to another company or start their own company.


----------



## GermanSuplex

shadow puppet said:


> Oh no.  Now there's only 62 votes separating Frisch and Bobo.




Oh man, I was hoping she was gone. This seems like it may head to a recount.


----------



## lizkat

Gray Lady was lettin' her Republican underwear hang out for awhile today,,,,

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590320296149409792/


----------



## shadow puppet

GermanSuplex said:


> Oh man, I was hoping she was gone. This seems like it may head to a recount.



I don't know what to think.  I'm trying to stay positive.  Some analysis of remaining ballots, which are largely in counties where Frisch holds strong leads, show he may still pull it off.


----------



## lizkat

What will Hannity and Carlson have to say about the midterms... anything about Trump?


----------



## GermanSuplex

Hobbs and Kelly pull a bit further ahead. These turned-in ballots that are counted have broken both ways in the past two elections, but a chunk of them just broke democrat.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Herdfan said:


> Do you think the people here in the US would accept that level of taxation?  You mention healthcare.  For those who work for large companies who provide good insurance, what is in it for them?  Yes, the un or under employed will benefit, but many won't.
> 
> As for the transportation system, we are so much more spread out than most EU countries so public transportation would be too expensive.  And in our dense cities, we do have it.  Granted something like the TGV would be great, but we live in a tort-driven society.  The first time some idiot climbs the fence and gets struck, the lawsuit would be huge.  Expect a couple a year.
> 
> I know it goes against what many, including myself, were preached to about college.  I can hear my dad saying it still.  You have to go to college to be "successful".  That's BS.  Some of the wealthiest people on this planet didn't finish college.  There are other ways than being forced to take classes in 18th century French poetry.  Why can't college be 2 years where you spend 100% of your time learning your major and not the fluff.  And not this 15 hour a week crap.  Do it like the military and treat it like a job from 8-5 or whatever.



I think that level of taxation would not be readily accepted here but only because of the steady drumbeat from the GOP that government is the problem. Of course they do their best to block any initiative that would make the governement work better so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. But when people in places like Sweden are asked about their high tax rates, they generally are okay with it because they get great value from it which they can see in their everyday life. And having to rely on large companies for health insurance, which is becoming more rare as time goes by, is the opposite of freedom. People often have to stick with jobs they hate just because of the health insurance. The "many" you refer to is actually a minority of Americans.

Yeah, the U.S. is bigger than EU countries but its economy is also much bigger so I think it can do better than what it has now but again the government doesn't always do what's best for the people, instead catering to lobbyists. A big part of the problem is the auto industry influence on Congress and how as a result much of our economy revolves around cars - gas stations, repair shops, new and used car dealers, parts supply stores, insurance companies, etc. Still, the EU countries generally have great systems, even through what might be considered inaccessible areas like the mountains in Switzerland.

So there are a few wealthy people that didn't go to college, what does that prove? We're talking about the population as a whole. If higher education were more readily available it would on the whole benefit society but deep-seated interests with a lot of influence - banks and the colleges themselves - are formidable obstacles.


----------



## ronntaylor

Tired of all the BS about young voters not being inspired by Biden/The Dems™ rhetoric. What falsehood new excuse will people come up with next? 

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590496005153492993/


----------



## lizkat

"... and it was because these women just went crazy,"  Yeah.  We been gone now about 50 years.  Moron.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590409501446148096/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Really glad Biden made that speech about democracy and the far-right, and got tough in the weeks before the election. He was correct, and it looks based on the way far-right candidates underperformed, most American agree with him.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I predict the next 2 years regardless of how the control numbers land that the Republican’s blanket obstruction and the antics of the conspiracy snake handlers is going to take center stage instead of backseat to the corporate extremist Manchins and Sinemas on the Democrat side.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

lizkat said:


> What will Hannity and Carlson have to say about the midterms... anything about Trump?



Trump is furious that he was advised to back Oz in Pennsylvania. He never takes responsibility for anything and is always quick to blame others, apparently this time even his wife. Of course if Oz had won he would have taken all the credit for the result and he's reduced to boasting that when he won Florida he got more votes than DeSantis just did.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Overall, regardless of what happens next, I feel pretty good. McCarthy will not have the majority he was hoping for, and his life will probably be just as hard herding cats in his conference as he was as the minority leader. Trump is on the ropes, even if only temporarily, and Americans showed that election denying and the rampant lies are not an alternative to whoever thinks democratic policies are failing. Republicans had some victories, but who wants a one-party blowout every election? It's not healthy.

Democrats - rightly or wrongly - have lost some inroads with brown voters, and still need to work on messaging and addressing crime, the border and other issues important to conservatives. I'm not going to debate the merits of those things, but it doesn't matter; its an issue to conservatives, and there's always room for improvement. If you have to tell yourself "There's no border crisis but we should still improve things", go into it with that mindset and improve things anyways.

Likewise, republicans are realizing Trump is not the winning formula they thought he was - he's gotten thumped three elections in a row, four if you count losing the popular vote - and election fraud claims and the rampant lying is as much as a turnoff as cancel culture or democrats ignoring the issue of crime.

I think its been a sobering election for both parties, both parties seem energized to vote but tired of the nonsense, and I think that's a good sign.



mac_in_tosh said:


> Trump is furious that he was advised to back Oz in Pennsylvania. He never takes responsibility for anything and is always quick to blame others, apparently this time even his wife. Of course if Oz had won he would have taken all the credit for the result and he's reduced to boasting that when he won Florida he got more votes than DeSantis just did.




He literally said if republicans do well he should get the credit, and if he did poorly he should get no blame.






So other than a couple of small victories, he's taking credit for things like Rubio and Ron Johnson - elected before he even entered politics - and name-dropping other candidates he had nothing to do with. He also thinks his losing candidates lost not because of him, but because they didn't embrace him enough.

He's learned nothing and while I'm happy to see republicans more level-headed after the elections than they usually are, I know things can turn quickly and they could be back in Trump's thrall tomorrow. But I'm enjoying his very public skewering in the meantime.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

GermanSuplex said:


> Democrats - rightly or wrongly - have lost some inroads with brown voters, and still need to work on messaging and addressing crime, the border and other issues important to conservatives.



I think the Democrats need to more strongly show the GOP's hypocrisy and how they are just using these issues to provoke fear, not really providing any solutions.

I've pointed out elsewhere that Republican controlled states are well represented in the listing of those with the highest crime rates. In reality, they do no better.

And as for their claims about the economy, generally speaking Republican controlled states are net importers of federal money while Democratic controlled ones are net exporters. George W presided over a financial meltdown and when Trump left office the economy was in bad shape.

Democrats should harp on these things every chance they get. It's like letting Trump get away with the image of a successful businessman when in reality he's had a long string of bankruptcies.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

"Coordinated effort": Rupert Murdoch dumps "biggest loser" Trump
					

"They have turned on him," said MSNBC host Joe Scarborough. "They want him gone."




					www.salon.com
				




Daaaaamnn


----------



## fooferdoggie

GermanSuplex said:


> He's learned nothing and while I'm happy to see republicans more level-headed after the elections than they usually are, I know things can turn quickly and they could be back in Trump's thrall tomorrow. But I'm enjoying his very public skewering in the meantime.



The MAGA party the party of no responsibility. has nice ring to it.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

I'm surprised Trump hasn't brought up voter fraud to explain why candidates he backed lost. Or has he?


----------



## Herdfan

Cmaier said:


> “Yeah, but someone who dropped out in kindergarten could technically win the lottery, so… education is for suckers.”
> 
> -typical redneck MAGA




Think what you want.  But skilled trades people, you know the ones you all look down on, can make $50-80/hr without college.  WalMart is currently hiring truck drivers for $100K+









						Walmart offering $110,000+ salary for truck drivers
					

As the U.S. deals with a nationwide shortage of truck drivers, Walmart has announced that the company will be offering their long-haul drivers a salary of up to $110,000 per year.




					www.cbs17.com
				




Is that MAGA?  No it isn't.  And no college required.  Note, I said college is not needed, I didn't education is not needed.  A kid my daughter went to HS with went to the trade school and when they all graduated, he started a job as a welder making $40K as many others were paying that to go to college.  Where are they now?  He has made in excess of $160K and the ones who took loans are in the negative.  How long will it take them to catch up?  A decade or more?  

And I say this as someone who has a graduate degree.  Sure if someone just has a HS diploma and gets a job at a c-store or in fast food they are not going to get ahead.  But learn a skill and college is not needed.  Our neighbor's son went to Clemson.  Came home after his first semester and told his parents that college was not for him and he was enlisting in the AF to learn how to fix jet engines.  After 6 years in the AF, he came out with all his certs and now works for Gulfstream making well over $100K.  So no, college is not a requirement for a good job no matter what you elitists think.


----------



## Cmaier

Herdfan said:


> Think what you want.  But skilled trades people, you know the ones you all look down on, can make $50-80/hr without college.  WalMart is currently hiring truck drivers for $100K+
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Walmart offering $110,000+ salary for truck drivers
> 
> 
> As the U.S. deals with a nationwide shortage of truck drivers, Walmart has announced that the company will be offering their long-haul drivers a salary of up to $110,000 per year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbs17.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that MAGA?  No it isn't.  And no college required.  Note, I said college is not needed, I didn't education is not needed.  A kid my daughter went to HS with went to the trade school and when they all graduated, he started a job as a welder making $40K as many others were paying that to go to college.  Where are they now?  He has made in excess of $160K and the ones who took loans are in the negative.  How long will it take them to catch up?  A decade or more?
> 
> And I say this as someone who has a graduate degree.  Sure if someone just has a HS diploma and gets a job at a c-store or in fast food they are not going to get ahead.  But learn a skill and college is not needed.  Our neighbor's son went to Clemson.  Came home after his first semester and told his parents that college was not for him and he was enlisting in the AF to learn how to fix jet engines.  After 6 years in the AF, he came out with all his certs and now works for Gulfstream making well over $100K.  So no, college is not a requirement for a good job no matter what you elitists think.




I was an electrician. I was a member of the IBEW.  How dare you accuse me of looking down on skilled tradespeople?

yeah, I later got four college agrees including two doctorates.  And I can assure you that those college degrees have paid for themselves many times over. 

As for the rest of your redneck bullshit, you are intentionally missing the point.   The issue isn’t that you CAN’T do well without a college degree.  The issue is that a college agree makes it FAR MORE LIKELY that you will do well.  The vast majority of people without college degrees are living paycheck-to-paycheck, and are one unexpected medical issue, car accident, or house fire away from financial ruin.


----------



## Cmaier

Since McCarthy will be indebted to the MAGAs, it’s going to be a lot of fun watching the public “Hunter Biden Laptop Hearings” and the three Biden impeachments.


----------



## Herdfan

Cmaier said:


> I was an electrician. I was a member of the IBEW.  How dare you accuse me of looking down on skilled tradespeople?
> 
> yeah, I later got four college agrees including two doctorates.  And I can assure you that those college degrees have paid for themselves many times over.
> 
> As for the rest of your redneck bullshit, you are intentionally missing the point.   The issue isn’t that you CAN’T do well without a college degree.  The issue is that a college agree makes it FAR MORE LIKELY that you will do well.  The vast majority of people without college degrees are living paycheck-to-paycheck, and are one unexpected medical issue, car accident, or house fire away from financial ruin.




I apologize to you.  But should know damn good and well that tradespeople, even skilled ones, are looked down on.  I get it all the time walking in someplace with dusty jeans, Carhartt shirts and workboots, even around here.

See, I think it depends more on the person than their level of education.  If they are smart and willing to apply themselves, then they will be successful.  But why are college grads more likely to do well?  Maybe it is because they are willing to work and learn and not because they have a piece of paper that says they passed some class they will never remember taking in 20 years.


----------



## Herdfan

Cmaier said:


> Since McCarthy will be indebted to the MAGAs, it’s going to be a lot of fun watching the public “Hunter Biden Laptop Hearings” and the three Biden impeachments.




I hope you're wrong.  I do not want McCarthy as speaker.


----------



## Eric

Congrats to Biden!









						Joe Biden just had the best midterms for a Democrat president in 24 years
					

A University of Washington academic told Newsweek Democrat success was likely "less the result of a credible Democratic strategy than poor Republican strategy."




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## shadow puppet

Damn.  With 98% in, Boebert's in the lead.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> Think what you want.  But skilled trades people, you know the ones you all look down on, can make $50-80/hr without college.  WalMart is currently hiring truck drivers for $100K+
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Walmart offering $110,000+ salary for truck drivers
> 
> 
> As the U.S. deals with a nationwide shortage of truck drivers, Walmart has announced that the company will be offering their long-haul drivers a salary of up to $110,000 per year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbs17.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that MAGA?  No it isn't.  And no college required.  Note, I said college is not needed, I didn't education is not needed.  A kid my daughter went to HS with went to the trade school and when they all graduated, he started a job as a welder making $40K as many others were paying that to go to college.  Where are they now?  He has made in excess of $160K and the ones who took loans are in the negative.  How long will it take them to catch up?  A decade or more?
> 
> And I say this as someone who has a graduate degree.  Sure if someone just has a HS diploma and gets a job at a c-store or in fast food they are not going to get ahead.  But learn a skill and college is not needed.  Our neighbor's son went to Clemson.  Came home after his first semester and told his parents that college was not for him and he was enlisting in the AF to learn how to fix jet engines.  After 6 years in the AF, he came out with all his certs and now works for Gulfstream making well over $100K.  So no, college is not a requirement for a good job no matter what you elitists think.




I think many people take circuitous trajectories with respect to formal education.  I fell into that category, and looking back was glad I did.  Left college in my early twenties and went to work for a silicon valley aerospace/defense company. Because I had a lot of experience designing electronics and radios when I was young, I was soon designing elements of signals processing systems (and later systems engineering) that were deployed all over the world. And I was able to travel the world supporting them. One was a location literally in the middle of nowhere, where I signed up for a year and a half tour. Because it was a hardship location with few people, my salary was doubled and at that time if you were out of the country for a year and a half there was no Federal income tax. That there was no place to spend any money was a bonus - I saved everything I made.  That projected income allowed me to buy a house in the SF Bay Area before I left, which I rented out while I was gone. Unfortunately, the country experienced a revolution, making it difficult getting out, though was glad to witness that happening firsthand. And was able to move into my house when the tenants lease expired.  A few years later I finished my engineering degree.

Turns out the most rewarding classes were not engineering (they were easy), but liberal arts/social sciences/etc. For me those classes were personally far more valuable than those related to engineering


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> I hope you're wrong.  I do not want McCarthy as speaker.




If McCarthy becomes speaker he is going to be the most miserable person in the country.


----------



## GermanSuplex

shadow puppet said:


> Damn.  With 98% in, Boebert's in the lead.
> 
> View attachment 19063




In the areas with the most outstanding votes, Frisch is leading. It's going to be close, no matter what, but there's still hope. I'd really like to pick off a couple of these ultra-MAGAts.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> So no, college is not a requirement for a good job no matter what you elitists think.






Cmaier said:


> As for the rest of your redneck bullshit, you are intentionally missing the point.




You both made points of substance and I hope other members will read entirety of both of your posts.

The main thing is for people to have the OPTION to go to either vocational school or college, which more than implies need for adequate and universal K-12 education...   and that the next steps in education should not cost the sun moon and stars to complete.   (and one could write a book on need for better policing of the godblasted scams still popping up as shortcut versions of vocational training).

 I also have long since regretted that there has not been more federal and state focus on underwriting quality vocational education options and development of related apprenticeship programs, with local schools and businesses involved.

Really one should not have to join the military to get a ticket off the doomed family farm and find a way to make a living.  Same with exiting an urban poverty pocket.   That ticket should include preparation for college and financial support enough past tuition so your choice is not decent food or owning textbooks.

Also,,,,  and I realize this is an unpopular opinion in the late stages of capitalism,  the purposes that a liberal arts college serves are to open eyes, encourage interests not discovered or supported during K12,  underpin the knowledge base of our future teachers, historians, philosophers, musicians and yes, theologians.  Those are the people who over the centuries have held us together in times of darkness, let us remember and understand the struggles, successes, brilliance and stupidity of human experience.  Not to remember, they say, is to be doomed to repeat.  Past that,  not ever to have learned is tragic.

So I could definitely do without all the bashing of "useless" liberal arts degrees.   We do live in a capitalist system.  One man's treasure is another man's curbside trash.  Particularly in times of high polarization in the body politic,  we should take with a grain of salt each other's most extreme views of the values of this or that aspect of education.   We do live in a democracy.   Choice is a feature, not a bug in the workings of how we manage to live together.  One person's choice should not be able to dismiss the choice of hundreds, thousands or millions of others:  compromise is not a dirty word.

And "both sides" should encourage kids to keep learning.  If that takes government intervention at such basic levels as making sure children get enough to eat and something to wear to keep the weather off them while waiting for the bus,  so be it.  Our kids are the future.  Not to shelter and feed them well enough even to take advantage of educational opportunities is a ticket to societal hell on earth.


----------



## shadow puppet

* crickets *

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590758060275867648/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

States are going to do what they are going to do, but right now there’s about a 50,000 vote difference between Warnock and Walker with an estimated 99% of votes counted. That hardly seems like a difference that calls for a runoff election.


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> I also have long since regretted that there has not been more federal and state focus on underwriting quality vocational education options and development of related apprenticeship programs, with local schools and businesses involved.




We also need to get past the notion that tradespeople aren't smart.  Many are very smart, but some people simply don't want to work in an office.


----------



## rdrr

Herdfan said:


> Think what you want.  But skilled trades people, you know the ones you all look down on, can make $50-80/hr without college.  WalMart is currently hiring truck drivers for $100K+
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Walmart offering $110,000+ salary for truck drivers
> 
> 
> As the U.S. deals with a nationwide shortage of truck drivers, Walmart has announced that the company will be offering their long-haul drivers a salary of up to $110,000 per year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbs17.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that MAGA?  No it isn't.  And no college required.  Note, I said college is not needed, I didn't education is not needed.  A kid my daughter went to HS with went to the trade school and when they all graduated, he started a job as a welder making $40K as many others were paying that to go to college.  Where are they now?  He has made in excess of $160K and the ones who took loans are in the negative.  How long will it take them to catch up?  A decade or more?
> 
> And I say this as someone who has a graduate degree.  Sure if someone just has a HS diploma and gets a job at a c-store or in fast food they are not going to get ahead.  But learn a skill and college is not needed.  Our neighbor's son went to Clemson.  Came home after his first semester and told his parents that college was not for him and he was enlisting in the AF to learn how to fix jet engines.  After 6 years in the AF, he came out with all his certs and now works for Gulfstream making well over $100K.  So no, college is not a requirement for a good job no matter what you elitists think.



I personally don't discount trades over college bound.  In fact I am a strong believer that college isn't the right path for everyone, and if you are not going to goto college a trade is the best option for folks to have a decent to even better living than some of the college bound folks.   However a professional trade isn't for everyone and still a successful trades person wants to at least get an associates degree from a community college in basic business (account, finance, etc.)  So they can run their business after they spend 10 or so years mastering their craft.

The other example you cited of the Walmart truck driver...   That is an aberration of the times, shortages in the field and our dependence of trucking in the country.   If Amazon has their way, they will eliminate truck drivers all together, with driverless long haul trucking and or drone delivery (probably 5 - 10 years out).    Not to mention that long haul trucking isn't a career path I would wish on anyone.  It is filled with a lot of stress and unhealthy and lonely living.  Imagine how stressful it is to drive with all the maniacs on the road and have a deadline?

With all that above, there is still a place for college education.  Will every field of study make 150+/year?  No.   What I personally detest is that somehow the right has clamped on to the notion that there isn't a need for a college education, and if you want one then you are somehow an elitist. 

There is room for every trade, service job, and professional career in this world, I just don't think it's a right or left thing.


----------



## rdrr

Herdfan said:


> We also need to get past the notion that tradespeople aren't smart.  Many are very smart, but some people simply don't want to work in an office.



Who the heck says that?  I am often stumped by something as simple as a compound miter cut for molding in an angle not 90 degrees, or hell if I can figure out a GFCI/AFCI outlet chain.   I have the utmost regard for our trades people, in fact I started to pick up an old world trade of blacksmithing.   I figure when the shit hits the fan and society collapses, my IT infrastructure skills won't be needed that much.


----------



## shadow puppet

I've been expecting this.  Especially if Frisch pulls back into the lead by a slim margin.  No way will Boebert sit still for that.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590722383983579136/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> We also need to get past the notion that tradespeople aren't smart.  Many are very smart, but some people simply don't want to work in an office.




This made me think of an excellent episode of Love Death + Robots where a group of robots were touring the wreckage of earth caused by humans and each area was populated exclusively by a political or class tribe who thought they had everything all figured out but each failed because of their exclusivity.

I think there are stereotype assumptions made from both sides, but as opposed to looking down on the other side, it's that one side simply doesn't care about the other because they are wrapped up in their own problems brought on by their job and environment.  Despite the media insisting on extreme divisiveness, I don't think that's really the way it is.


----------



## GermanSuplex

shadow puppet said:


> I've been expecting this.  Especially if Frisch pulls back into the lead by a slim margin.  No way will Boebert sit still for that.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590722383983579136/




Bring it on. Republicans really need to think about how they move forward. Democrats have their own reckoning, but Trump's stolen election lies were on the ballot, and they lost. Sure, there will still be a few muttering about it, but now that we've had our first set of elections in the wake of Trump's loss, that is a losing issue. Arizona, Georgia and small pockets elsewhere may keep it going, but I don't see the party as a whole openly embracing that garbage the way they did last year. Plus, there's a Georgia runoff coming up, and the republicans will need to be on their best behavior - a challenge, I know.


----------



## rdrr

GermanSuplex said:


> Bring it on. Republicans really need to think about how they move forward. Democrats have their own reckoning, but Trump's stolen election lies were on the ballot, and they lost. Sure, there will still be a few muttering about it, but now that we've had our first set of elections in the wake of Trump's loss, that is a losing issue. Arizona, Georgia and small pockets elsewhere may keep it going, but I don't see the party as a whole openly embracing that garbage the way they did last year. Plus, there's a Georgia runoff coming up, and the republicans will need to be on their best behavior - a challenge, I know.



Donated to Warnock, because I think he is going to need it to get the folks to come out again.   I am fearful that the third party candidate peeled off a lot of the GOP votes, but still have hope that Walker is just too much for them to vote for him.   Hopefully they either sit it out or hold their nose and vote D.


----------



## shadow puppet

I'm not sure I want to watch anymore.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590803642692829184/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

I think it’s kind of funny right-wing pundits are arguing over which fascist they should send to Georgia to promote their dumpster fire.


----------



## GermanSuplex

rdrr said:


> Donated to Warnock, because I think he is going to need it to get the folks to come out again.   I am fearful that the third party candidate peeled off a lot of the GOP votes, but still have hope that Walker is just too much for them to vote for him.   Hopefully they either sit it out or hold their nose and vote D.




Walker won’t be down-ballot from Kemp this time. If it’s a 50/50 senate, both sides will be motivated, but it wasn’t enough in 2020, and that was with Trump and republicans still in a post-election frenzy. It’ll probably be close again, but unlike this week’s election, people showing up to vote will be doing so to vote for or against someone. People split the ticket, many who voted for Kemp voted for Warnock or the other guy, or maybe nobody. If more of the people who voted for the independent vote for Warnock, it’s over for old Herschel.

Actually, to be honest, I have no idea what the hell is going to happen, lol.


----------



## fooferdoggie

shadow puppet said:


> I'm not sure I want to watch anymore.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590803642692829184/



wait are they valid sounds like ballot loading. come on now lets file a lawsuit.


----------



## Edd

fooferdoggie said:


> wait are they valid sounds like ballot loading. come on now lets file a lawsuit.



The numbers here will be close enough for a recount, I’d think. Don’t know for sure but if LB loses, she’ll demand a recount for certain.


----------



## shadow puppet

Reading this latest news for Colorado & seeing reports her opponent has conceded.  Another Dem win.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590749287754788871/


----------



## SuperMatt

I don’t need an education or a job. I can just win the lottery. In your face, elites!

But just so you know, I do have a graduate degree. But I can still call you all elites because I’m a white man, and white men cannot be elites. It says so in the Bible and/or constitution.


----------



## rdrr

SuperMatt said:


> I don’t need an education or a job. I can just win the lottery. In your face, elites!
> 
> But just so you know, I do have a graduate degree. But I can still call you all elites because I’m a white man, and white men cannot be elites. It says so in the Bible and/or constitution.



You need to work on your sarcasm notification flag.  

What makes you less than elite, is your love for the Sabers, and probably the Bills  /s


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> Reading this latest news for Colorado & seeing reports her opponent has conceded.  Another Dem win.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590749287754788871/




This is gettin' good.   There are at least three CA seats remaining that were projected lean-red but that have mail ballots out expected to run heavily blue...

The Rs might end up in practice having to court a bunch of blue dog Dems just to have backup of their tiny majority if they even land it.  Also,  If McCarthy gets the gavel he's gonna regret ever having called any on his own side of the aisle a RINO or worse.


----------



## shadow puppet

Well look who finally checked back in.  Of course she jumps right to the blame game.  I mean it couldn't possibly be due to her own idjit self now can it?









						Boebert blames top of her ticket for tougher-than-expected race: "Of course I expect to win"
					

Find election results for the US 2022 Midterm Election here. Follow CNN's live coverage and results for key Senate, House and state races for Thursday, Nov. 10.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## ronntaylor

It's going to take forever to declare the winner, but this sounds good for the Democrat in the race

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590847439560667136/


----------



## shadow puppet

No matter how the Frisch/Boebert race turns out, this will be one of my favorite posts of the midterms.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> This made me think of an excellent episode of Love Death + Robots where a group of robots were touring the wreckage of earth caused by humans and each area was populated exclusively by a political or class tribe who thought they had everything all figured out but each failed because of their exclusivity.
> 
> I think there are stereotype assumptions made from both sides, but as opposed to looking down on the other side, it's that one side simply doesn't care about the other because they are wrapped up in their own problems brought on by their job and environment.  Despite the media insisting on extreme divisiveness, I don't think that's really the way it is.




Even before the world was graced or cursed by things like social media and television, just the time-consuming aspects of everyone's life can guarantee that we will all miss out on news of this or that potentially divisive event or issue,  never mind engage in quarrels over them. 

To call that apathy (which I have done once in awhile) is arrogant and elitist,  but also forgetful of what it is to just go about daily life.  We do get wrapped up in our own problems and that's as it should be... and thank god there are people on the planet who are better bakers than I ever was.   I try to remember than when inclined to complain that some pitas are misshapen or wrinkled.

The big problem comes when someone decides to stir pots by setting the bakers against the poets or truck drivers.

There is a place for all of us, and a commonality amongst us despite our rarely feeling the need to articulate it.  And that commonality does usually extend to not caring a whole lot about what "other people" in general are doing today.    Whoever forgets that,  in conduct of political campaigns or other aspirations to power,  will eventually pay a hard price for the oversight.

 It becomes tiresome after awhile to be yelled at by pols about how terrible everything is, yeah even if things can sometimes get pretty bad.   We know that.  We still have to go to work or look for a job, make the coffee, finish the essay, hang up the wash,  fix the godblasted leaky tire or replace the toaster, try to ground a kid for bad behavior without making him suicidal or homicidal.  We don't all have the same problems but we share the experience of having terrible problems surface out of the blue and having to deal with them.  We are humans,  and if we're fortunate we have some great times and just enough sorrows to make an okay day all the sweeter.

Meanwhile we got these pols up there spending hundreds of millions of dollars for the right to tell us we hate each other.  WTF. Really I begin to think by end of a campaign season that it's a miracle anyone can summon the will to actually fill out a ballot.


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> No matter how the Frisch/Boebert race turns out, this will be one of my favorite posts of the midterms.
> 
> View attachment 19090





Here's some hope that the 6800 votes remaining in Frisch-Boebert race will not only elect Frisch but provide a flash of karma:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590821668166868992/


----------



## lizkat

Couple tweets here indicate more Colorado-3 ballots due in that won't be counted today.  The posters are Colorado journalists. So this very close Frisch-Boebert race (never mind recount if it comes to that) might not be over until sometime next week.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

What's discouraging is that even if Bobert loses it apparently will be by a small margin. That's true of Oz's loss in PA. And the Georgia Senate race is so close it's going to a runoff.

What's wrong with these voters? Boebert is a whack job with a long criminal rap sheet. Oz is a con man who accepted money to push cures to his trusting audiences and has virtually no history with Pennsylvania. And Walker is totally unqualified, having trouble putting together a cogent sentence as well as having a violent past and spawning an unknown number of children who he abandoned. Family values anyone?

That these sordid people got even more than a few percentage of votes  is a sad commentary on the state of the nation. But I guess it's not surprising when tens of millions of people voted for the morally degenerate Grifter-In-Chief Donald Trump.


----------



## fooferdoggie




----------



## shadow puppet

lizkat said:


> Couple tweets here indicate more Colorado-3 ballots due in that won't be counted today.  The posters are Colorado journalists. So this very close Frisch-Boebert race (never mind recount if it comes to that) might not be over until sometime next week.



Add this journalist to your Pueblo reporter list.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590865614352289793/


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> Add this journalist to your Pueblo reporter list.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590865614352289793/




Right,  she's actually who retweeted those other posts,  so there's some good info under Winfrey's account,




mac_in_tosh said:


> What's discouraging is that even if Bobert loses it apparently will be by a small margin. That's true of Oz's loss in PA. And the Georgia Senate race so close it's going to a runoff.
> 
> What's wrong with these voters? Boebert is a whack job with a long criminal rap sheet. Oz is a con man who accepted money to push cures to his trusting audiences and has virtually no history with Pennsylvania. And Walker is totally unqualified, having trouble putting together a cogent sentence as well as having a violent past and spawning an unknown number of children who he abandoned. Family values anyone?
> 
> That these sordid people got even more than a few percentage of votes  is a sad commentary on the state of the nation. But I guess it's not surprising when tens of millions of people voted for the morally degenerate Grifter-In-Chief Donald Trump.




That Colorado district is huge, sparsely populated in rural areas, a mix of wealthy (some seasonal or absentee) and working class and stone broke, total pop is the typical House constituency of a bit under 800k.  It has been regarded as potentially competitive in certain circumstances,e.g., sometimes develops blue coattails behind a popular choice for President or governor, but usually leans conservative.

Below is a snapshot from Wiki of the demographics, prefaced by a summary of the district's characteristcs provided by a Denver post journalist via Wikipedia.   Reading between the lines, the rural areas that are not swanky ski areas are stone broke populist and likely got caught up by Trump mania pretty good in 2016 when the whole country seemed unhappy with "the establishment."  I'd say that median income figure of $63k disguises some pretty close to bone living for a lot of the residents.



> The district is red-leaning, and it covers nearly half of Colorado’s land mass, including western and southern Colorado, and 29 of the state’s 64 counties. It’s also diverse, with wealthy ski towns like Aspen, giant swaths of agricultural land and public lands, and middle-class cities like Grand Junction and Pueblo.
> — Alex Burness, _Denver Post_ (November 3, 2020)


----------



## ronntaylor

Damn! She has a 1100+ lead. Doesn't look good for Frisch


----------



## shadow puppet

ronntaylor said:


> Damn! She has a 1100+ lead. Doesn't look good for Frisch



What happened to the remaining sectors that were supposed to lean Dem?


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> What happened to the remaining sectors that were supposed to lean Dem?




There are still a bunch of votes out and not expected until next week but 1100 is a big number to meet.

Also, some of the "expected" votes could just be logbook entries where an absentee ballot was requested and sent out, not yet received back and the must-be-returned-by date has not yet passed. 

So some of the "still out" ballots may never end up counted because they were never cast.


----------



## shadow puppet

Damn.  I really wanted to see Boebert go down.  Kari Lake too.


----------



## lizkat

Interlude on watching late returns:   watching the Fox spin on things.  Oy, vey.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590680637945806850/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Hobbs increasing her lead over Lake by a few thousand, but still a lot to come in and Lake could easily take over, but it’s looking good in Nevada and AZ senate races….

If dems can get those two states, GA is still important but I can see one side or both getting complacent. I guess that would still make it unpredictable though.

NBC has decreased their GOP House total projections twice, from 222 to 220, both with a margin of +/- 7.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> NBC has decreased their GOP House total projections twice, from 222 to 220, both with a margin of +/- 7.




McCarthy will be lucky if he can even nail down the Speakership, never mind herd cats all term with a single-digit margin.


----------



## ronntaylor

lizkat said:


> McCarthy will be lucky if he can even nail down the Speakership, never mind herd cats all term with a single-digit margin.



Right, I don't see the Freedom Caucus (sic) willingly giving him the gavel without crazy asks.


----------



## GermanSuplex

lizkat said:


> McCarthy will be lucky if he can even nail down the Speakership, never mind herd cats all term with a single-digit margin.




Matt Gaetz already called him and McConnell “McFailures” on Twitter, and I believe it was Rep. Biggs who said the caucus will have to “talk” about leadership.

He’s been a very weak leader this far. He doesn’t even feel like the leader of a caucus, just some guy who got name dropped to be speaker years ago and has been trying to hide under a car like a scared dog until the time comes.


----------



## lizkat

ronntaylor said:


> Right, I don't see the Freedom Caucus (sic) willingly giving him the gavel without crazy asks.




That's the real problem.  They're going to try to extract rule-tweaking agreements in exchange for their support.   Crap that only the House Freeeeeeeeeeedumb Caucus could come up with.    It's circus time!




GermanSuplex said:


> Matt Gaetz already called him and McConnell “McFailures” on Twitter, and I believe it was Rep. Biggs who said the caucus will have to “talk” about leadership.
> 
> He’s been a very weak leader this far. He doesn’t even feel like the leader of a caucus, just some guy who got name dropped to be speaker years ago and has been trying to hide under a car like a scared dog until the time comes.




Yeah Kevin kinda sorta totally wants it but would instantly become "the dog that caught the car,"  LIke... uh oh now what?

 And then people like Gym Jordan and MTG would run rings around him and make a true circus from hell out of that chamber for as long as it took some sane Dems and Republicans to add themselves up to 219 and elect a different Speaker.    Say a month?

Since *you don't even have to be a member of Congress* to acquire the speakership of the House by majority vote of the members,  people are proposing some crazy options on social media lately.   Including Trump, of course.

I swear I might not be too old to emigrate from the USA...


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> Matt Gaetz already called him and McConnell “McFailures” on Twitter,




That's pretty funny coming from Gaetz.


----------



## lizkat

Citysnaps said:


> That's pretty funny coming from Gaetz.




McConnell laughing all the way to the bank.  He may end up minority leader but he has helped nail Trump to the wall.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Hehe..









						Kevin McCarthy's bid to be House speaker is in jeopardy
					

And not just because two days after the election political control of the House has not yet been settled.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Citysnaps

GermanSuplex said:


> Hehe..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin McCarthy's bid to be House speaker is in jeopardy
> 
> 
> And not just because two days after the election political control of the House has not yet been settled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com




 Wonder how he'd feel loosing to MTG?  I don't want to see that happening. Yet I kind of do just for entertainment value.


----------



## lizkat

Citysnaps said:


> Wonder how he'd feel loosing to MTG?  I don't want to see that happening. Yet I kind of do just for entertainment value.




Arggghh.  Please, no.  But it's not out of the question.   Stefanik would try to scratch her eyes out first though, probably.

Man in my best dreams the three CA seats now leaning blue would go there and Bobo would lose and... and...


----------



## lizkat

So annoying...    think what the Dems might have managed without these headwinds.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590826643995516931/


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> Walker won’t be down-ballot from Kemp this time.
> 
> Actually, to be honest, I have no idea what the hell is going to happen, lol.




But he also won't have the Libertarian Candidate sucking 81,000 votes away.  So the question is whether or not those votes will go to Walker or Warnock.

I think this election is going to depend on which party does less crazy stuff over the next month.

And like you, I have no idea.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Although not really mentioned in the buildup to the elections, one of the main reasons given by young people who showed up to vote - school active shooter drills.  Seems they aren't big second amendment fans.


----------



## lizkat

Michigan Democratic Party activists really took it to the Rs, starting down at school board levels over library book bans...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590918521705312256/


----------



## lizkat

More minutiae of 2022 midterm outcomes,  and important to retention of democratic vote-counting,,,

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591086056211976193/


----------



## shadow puppet

Always happy to read more news that the red tsunami didn't happen.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591140670516912130/


----------



## shadow puppet

Can someone please explain how Walker received so many votes?
Also, what is up with Lindsey's crocodile tears?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591140610270199808/


----------



## Herdfan

shadow puppet said:


> Can someone please explain how Walker received so many votes?




SEC Football.  He was an absolute star at UGA.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Herdfan said:


> SEC Football.  He was an absolute star at UGA.



yes becasuse that will make you a good politician. worked wonders with trump.


----------



## Renzatic

shadow puppet said:


> Can someone please explain how Walker received so many votes?
> Also, what is up with Lindsey's crocodile tears?




Plus, that Warnock fellow ran over his wife that one time. We frown upon domestic abusers around here.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> SEC Football.  He was an absolute star at UGA.



Look how it worked out for Tommy Tuberville.


----------



## ronntaylor

shadow puppet said:


> What happened to the remaining sectors that were supposed to lean Dem?



Can't make assumptions of how ballots may go. Frisch picked up just 14 net votes in an area thought to be good for him:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590937089516134400/


No more updates till Thursday, November 17th. I'll be following Anna Lynn Winfrey for updates.


----------



## rdrr

Herdfan said:


> SEC Football.  He was an absolute star at UGA.



Actually that is probably the best answer.   Although College football isn't that big up here, I would be given pause if Tom Brady (regardless of party) were to run for office.   I would come to my senses if he were running as a R, but I'll admit that I would hover over the bubble.


----------



## shadow puppet

ronntaylor said:


> Can't make assumptions of how ballots may go. Frisch picked up just 14 net votes in an area thought to be good for him:



Only 14?  That is extremely sad.


ronntaylor said:


> No more updates till Thursday, November 17th. I'll be following *Anna Lynn Winfrey* for updates.



I've been following her too.  She's right there in the thick of it and seems to have knowledgable sources.


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> Can someone please explain how Walker received so many votes?





Herdfan said:


> SEC Football.  He was an absolute star at UGA.





rdrr said:


> Actually that is probably the best answer.   Although College football isn't that big up here, I would be given pause if Tom Brady (regardless of party) were to run for office.   I would come to my senses if he were running as a R, but I'll admit that I would hover over the bubble.




Not me, man.  The past six years have made me into a stone partisan Dem even though I still swear I'll revoke my party reggie after each set of disappointing primaries.  (But of course I threaten just to become an indie, not an R.)

No hovering for me now though, or not any more.   I'd vote for a Dem to be town highway supervisor even if he didn't know the back end of a mule from a John Deere lawn tractor.  At least I'd know he'd not vote for tax breaks for big corporations and then cut our school budgets when the inflated new local employment promises made by those robber baron oligarchies don't pan out.

I won't even vote for a competent _unopposed_ Republican town clerk.   I cast a blank for that slot now and hope they notice the difference in the total vote, since I know a bunch of other Dems are doing that too (while also and more constructively trying to get the Dems even to put up a candidate FFS).

It's the Republican Party since Pat Buchanan and Newt Gingrich have slowly converted me to a staunch leftie in the voting booth.   I used to vote for the occasional moderate Republican, but that was when there still were any on the ballot.  By the time the Trump era rolled in,  I was usually just voting for Dems, Working Families or once in awhile the Greens.   Now it's just Dems.


----------



## rdrr

lizkat said:


> Not me, man.  The past six years have made me into a stone partisan Dem even though I still swear I'll revoke my party reggie after each set of disappointing primaries.  (But of course I threaten just to become an indie, not an R.)
> 
> No hovering for me now though, or not any more.   I'd vote for a Dem to be town highway supervisor even if he didn't know the back end of a mule from a John Deere lawn tractor.  At least I'd know he'd not vote for tax breaks for big corporations and then cut our school budgets when the inflated new local employment promises made by those robber baron oligarchies don't pan out.
> 
> I won't even vote for a competent _unopposed_ Republican town clerk.   I cast a blank for that slot now and hope they notice the difference in the total vote, since I know a bunch of other Dems are doing that too (while also and more constructively trying to get the Dems even to put up a candidate FFS).
> 
> It's the Republican Party since Pat Buchanan and Newt Gingrich have slowly converted me to a staunch leftie in the voting booth.   I used to vote for the occasional moderate Republican, but that was when there still were any on the ballot.  By the time the Trump era rolled in,  I was usually just voting for Dems, Working Families or once in awhile the Greens.   Now it's just Dems.



Oh I hear you, if anything TFG made me a no more thinking about voting for an R.    I was just trying to say that I kinda understand people casting a vote for a sport hero.  I was being a little cheeky with my comments trying relate it with TB12, although I am a little mad that he packed up and went to Tampa Bay.


----------



## shadow puppet

lizkat said:


> Not me, man.  The past six years have made me into a stone partisan Dem even though I still swear I'll revoke my party reggie after each set of disappointing primaries.  (But of course I threaten just to become an indie, not an R.)



Right there with you girl.  I switched from Green (I'm for the environment and wildlife/lands conservation), to Dem just to take one minuscule vote (mine) from TFG in 2016.  My entire. 2022 midterms ballot was Dem.  But that was easy.  I made sure everyone I voted for was pro-choice.


----------



## Citysnaps

shadow puppet said:


> Also, what is up with Lindsey's crocodile tears?




I remember long ago when Graham was somewhat respectable, even though he was a repub.  Somehow he lost his moral compass. I think that was not long after his good friend Sen John McCain passed away and then got sucked into the current abyss.


----------



## rdrr

Citysnaps said:


> I remember long ago when Graham was somewhat respectable, even though he was a repub.  Somehow he lost his moral compass. I think that was not long after his good friend Sen John McCain passed away.



Right?  I mean before TFG he was at least a little bit human.   I do seem to recall McCain was the one that kept him kinda on respectable side.   I didn't agree with McCain a lot, but he did gain my respect, and it was well before the thumbs down vote.  Probably somewhere around his concession speech in 2012, when he corrected the crowd and thanked Obama.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Yeah, Graham is upset because he went all in on Trump, he enjoys the celebrity, but he has no real identity of his own. He was a moderate McCain buddy who became a Trump lackey and now he’ll stick his finger in the wind to see which way the GOP winds are blowing and flap that way. He’s a follower who loves the spotlight but will never be someone who sticks his neck out for anything other than himself or maybe Trump, and he only does it for Trump in the name of self preservation.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> Yeah, Graham is upset because he went all in on Trump, he enjoys the celebrity, but he has no real identity of his own. He was a moderate McCain buddy who became a Trump lackey and now he’ll stick his finger in the wind to see which way the GOP winds are blowing and flap that way. He’s a follower who loves the spotlight but will never be someone who sticks his neck out for anything other than himself or maybe Trump, and he only does it for Trump in the name of self preservation.




Twenty years ago Lindsey Graham was a completely different guy.   He reminded me in some ways of his opposite-party peer of another time from a neighboring state, the late Sam Ervin (D-NC) who served on the Watergate Senate Investigation committee and while a Harvard Law graduate admitted to the bar even before he finished law school, used to refer to himself as "just a simple country lawyer."   He was disarming and charming in that genteel, almost courtly southern way, as was the Graham of olden times, and entirely capable of working across the aisle on measures perceived as for the common good.

That Graham was a whole other creature in terms of contribution to the Senate than is the man we know him to be now.   Back then he was bipartisan, respectful of the spirit of the Constitution, interested in immigration reform, helpful on campaign finance reform and smoothing the way for SCOTUS nominee hearings whether he wanted them on the court or not.   For awhile with McCain having him in tow, Graham continued along that path even as 2016 came and went and the whole GOP had to move at least somewhat to the right to accommodate the GOP's political realities in the electorate of the Trump presidency.

But something was going on there, and the public stance of Senator Graham, from that of an establishment Republican --acknowledging a new era, yet standing separate from it--  to an acolyte of Donald Trump occurred in a flash, literally days after McCain's funeral.   Suddenly he was all-in with Trump, and every vestige of that Graham in an earlier time in the Senate just vanished.

Dana Milbank's column in the Washington Post of August 31, 2018 (cited below, paywall removed)  took note of it,  and I share his regret that we lost that Lindsey Graham so unexpectedly and fetched up on the shores of Fox News a couple days later with a creature who with rare and brief exceptions has proven himself so slavishly devoted to Donald Trump.

Washington Post / Opinion / Rest in Peace, Lindsey Graham



> “I believe there is a little John McCain in all of us,” Graham said in his touching eulogy on the Senate floor.  I saw a lot of McCain in the Graham I met on the Straight Talk Express two decades ago. I saw it again earlier this year when Graham lamented Trump’s sudden shift that killed the immigration compromise.
> 
> “I don’t know where that guy went,” Graham said of the Trump who, briefly, offered to compromise. “I want him back.”
> 
> I don’t know where that Graham went. I want him back.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Kelly projected winner of AZ race, defeating Republican Blake Masters.. Senate is tied. Nevada is leaning dem. That’s the senate if dems hold Nevada.

The votes that came into AZ tonight were of a batch that we wouldn’t know how they would break. They are a mix of ballots turned in on or shortly before Election Day. In 2020, those late votes broke for republicans. In 2018, they broke for dems. They are breaking dem this year. Kari Lake may lose.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> Kelly projected winner of AZ race, defeating Republican Blake Masters.. Senate is tied. Nevada is leaning dem. That’s the senate if dems hold Nevada.
> 
> The votes that came into AZ tonight were of a batch that we wouldn’t know how they would break. They are a mix of ballots turned in on or shortly before Election Day. In 2020, those late votes broke for republicans. In 2018, they broke for dems. They are breaking dem this year. Kari Lake may lose.




Hot damn!


----------



## shadow puppet

LFG!!





ETA     :

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591276343731580928/


----------



## Alli

rdrr said:


> Right?  I mean before TFG he was at least a little bit human.   I do seem to recall McCain was the one that kept him kinda on respectable side.   I didn't agree with McCain a lot, but he did gain my respect, and it was well before the thumbs down vote.  Probably somewhere around his concession speech in 2012, when he corrected the crowd and thanked Obama.



Graham buried his spine, balls, conscience, and soul with McCain.


----------



## SuperMatt

Alli said:


> Graham buried his spine, balls, conscience, and soul with McCain.



Imagine the look on the coroner’s face if they ever have to exhume McCain’s body…


----------



## lizkat

SuperMatt said:


> Imagine the look on the coroner’s face if they ever have to exhume McCain’s body…



What I don't get about Graham since McCain's passing are the occasional sound bite moments of moral or legal clarity followed very shortly thereafter --by either a vote or further commentary-- that seem to put the lie to whatever he'd said previously.

It goes beyond the normal sort of fencewalking that plenty of pols engage in when their margins are tightening up in their district or state.   Every time Graham does that he adds material for some compilation ad that the Ds will lay out for him in a future re-election race.  Some of that went on the last time around vs Jaime Harrison of course,  but Graham keeps giving the Ds more ammo. Still somehow he manages to rack up more like 56% than a squeakier finish in his re-election bids no matter who's in the WH.


----------



## shadow puppet

I think the last time I saw Graham show some sanity was after his public break with TFG following the riots on Capitol Hill.  I thought oh my God, he's finally seeing the light.  Shortly after, he was surrounded by a couple dozen Trump fanatics harassing him at Reagan National Airport, all heckling him and calling him a traitor.  Not too long after, IIRC, he changed his tune back to licking TFG's butt.









						Trump supporters yell ‘traitor’ to Lindsey Graham at airport
					

The incident comes after Sen. Lindsey Graham publicly broke with the president following the deadly riots on Capitol Hill.




					www.politico.com


----------



## shadow puppet

I am enjoying this far too much.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591407116308582401/


----------



## GermanSuplex

shadow puppet said:


> Can someone please explain how Walker received so many votes?
> Also, what is up with Lindsey's crocodile tears?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591140610270199808/




Lol, I just got around to seeing this.

I don’t know if Lindsey Graham knows this or not, but there’s also another black man on the ticket, and that’s Raphael Warnock.

Also, Graham is senator from South Carolina, where his other senator is black conservative Tim Scott, who is definitely not Herschel Walker.

Maybe if they showed a modicum of this type of outrage when it’s an innocent black person gunned down instead of a conservative candidate in a tight race, it would seem more sincere.

Also, when it comes to black conservatives, it’s not the race that’s a problem. I can promise Graham that I would dislike David Clarke just as much if he were white.


----------



## shadow puppet

Apparently 140 Maricopa county election workers have received threats.  Now this.  
What is wrong with these people?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591503219263303680/


----------



## lizkat

Interesting contrast of maps...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591175192834965515/


----------



## GermanSuplex

lizkat said:


> Interesting contrast of maps...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591175192834965515/




It’s sad that this issue keeps coming up. Right-wing comment sections are filled with people wondering why counties with 10k people get votes counted quickly, and then get mad when it takes longer for counties with 3 million people to count, and that later-tallied vote pushes the democrat over the top.

It’s lost on them that the mail and other early votes now lean dem because the MAGA leader told them not to vote that way.

As for Arizona, these people can get as mad as they want, they don’t get to control how or when the vote is counted. Besides, Lake is losing anyways, what do they expect to happen? The vote stops and Lake is the loser? It’s ironic that the votes being counted as we speak are probably leaning toward voters who reject this kind of nonsense these protesters are pushing for.


----------



## lizkat

The GOP is looking around trying to figure out which of themselves to rip a new one, meanwhile "it's not about them"...  it's about how they've been for too long, and so it's about Gen Z, basicalliy.   They finally had enough.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1590351701508526080/


----------



## lizkat

Not the end of suspense for AZ governor, but gettin' better for Democrat Katie Hobbs. Up by 2% after a Pima vote dump.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591583171862491136/


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> Not the end of suspense for AZ governor, but gettin' better for Democrat Katie Hobbs. Up by 2% after a Pima vote dump.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591583171862491136/



Lake is going to be foaming at the mouth if she loses. just like trump lawsuits stupid stuff


----------



## GermanSuplex

NBC projection has moved democrats up to 216 seats in their prediction. The GOP is down to 219. That is still with a margin of error plus or minus 4 seats. This is the second or third time NBC has reduced the projected GOP numbers. It’s still a longshot, but there’s an ever-increasing chance for dems to hold the house.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> NBC projection has moved democrats up to 216 seats in their prediction. The GOP is down to 219. That is still with a margin of error plus or minus 4 seats. This is the second or third time NBC has reduced the projected GOP numbers. It’s still a longshot, but there’s an ever-increasing chance for dems to hold the house.




I've been reading it's going to be tough for Ds to lose CA41 and retain control of house, and CA41 looking tougher to keep.

Of course I hope for the gavel to stay with the Dems.  If that's not to be,  then I'd say the Rs will have a tougher time herding cats this time around than would the Dems with a really skinny margin.  The Republicans are totally tearing each other up over their unexpectedly poor showing.  It's not clear that the House Freedom Caucus would be able to run the full-on-crazy circus they're hoping for if they take the majority.

Man the redistricting in NYS and a not very astute state party chair for the Dems = unhelpful towards keeping the House.  Very disappointing that NY19 as redrawn flipped back to red, for one thing.   Sean Maloney losing his redrawn NY17 seat also feels inexcusable (although the GOP threw 10 million dollars into that effort).

Maloney put most of his effort (successfully, looks like!) into trying to ensure against a USA-wide red wave...  he has been head of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.  He did lay some of the blame for loss of his own seat on Governor Hochul's very pale showing versus how Biden did in 2020.  She won re-election by 6 points, Biden had won NY by 23 points.





__





						Rep. Sean Patrick Maloney Blames Himself — And Hochul — For His Defeat
					





					www.msn.com
				




Anyway those two House seats right there, the redrawn NY17 and 19,  are a couple of Dem losses that really mattered this time out the box.  Dem Governor Hochul's re-election had negative coattails in some districts in the wake of Republican Zeldin's incessant attacks regarding crime and inflation.  There were also undertones of upstate resentment against gun safety measures signed into law by Hochul after the Buffalo supermarket massacre earlier this year.  It was unlikely Lee Zeldin could win, even given his name recognition as a downstate congress critter, but he came a whole lot closer than would normally be the case for an R gubernatorial candidate in NYS.


----------



## lizkat

Re the Georgia runoff election:  It still matters and the Ds better get some get-out-the-vote dough and local talent together.   McConnell and Georgia's governor Kemp are teaming up to try to flip this to the R column.   Kemp's field machine and Mitch's super PAC...









						McConnell turns to Brian Kemp to help save Herschel Walker in Georgia runoff
					

The Georgia governor is loaning his get-out-the-vote machine to the McConnell-aligned super PAC, Senate Leadership Fund, ahead of the Dec. 6 vote.




					www.politico.com
				




BUT:  looks like the Ds took Nevada Senate race, just called now,  so the Georgia runoff win would be gravy.  Yee haa!


----------



## GermanSuplex

lizkat said:


> I've been reading it's going to be tough for Ds to lose CA41 and retain control of house, and CA41 looking tougher to keep.
> 
> Of course I hope for the gavel to stay with the Dems.  If that's not to be,  then I'd say the Rs will have a tougher time herding cats this time around than would the Dems with a really skinny margin.  The Republicans are totally tearing each other up over their unexpectedly poor showing.  It's not clear that the House Freedom Caucus would be able to run the full-on-crazy circus they're hoping for if they take the majority.
> 
> Man the redistricting in NYS and a not very astute state party chair for the Dems = unhelpful towards keeping the House.  Very disappointing that NY19 as redrawn flipped back to red, for one thing.   Sean Maloney losing his redrawn NY17 seat also feels inexcusable (although the GOP threw 10 million dollars into that effort).
> 
> Maloney put most of his effort (successfully, looks like!) into trying to ensure against a USA-wide red wave...  he has been head of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.  He did lay some of the blame for loss of his own seat on Governor Hochul's very pale showing versus how Biden did in 2020.  She won re-election by 6 points, Biden had won NY by 23 points.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rep. Sean Patrick Maloney Blames Himself — And Hochul — For His Defeat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway those two House seats right there, the redrawn NY17 and 19,  are a couple of Dem losses that really mattered this time out the box.  Dem Governor Hochul's re-election had negative coattails in some districts in the wake of Republican Zeldin's incessant attacks regarding crime and inflation.  There were also undertones of upstate resentment against gun safety measures signed into law by Hochul after the Buffalo supermarket massacre earlier this year.  It was unlikely Lee Zeldin could win, even given his name recognition as a downstate congress critter, but he came a whole lot closer than would normally be the case for an R gubernatorial candidate in NYS.




Yeah, a lot of stuff was working against the dems. But the dems do gerrymander too, and I don’t know how either side prevents it. At least the dems still did much, much better than they had any right to. It’s not that inflation isn’t a hugely important issue, but it should tell republicans that their stance on voting rights and democracy is wrong. Biden was proven correct to give the speech he did about democracy and use that as a driving point the last few months.

As for the thin margin republicans will have if they gain the speakership, republicans are usually less united than democrats, and with only two or three votes making a difference, every member of the freedom caucus is going to be a Manchin or Sinema, on every major issue. I don’t think McCarthy is up to the job, but it will be entertaining to watch.

The Senate being held is a very good thing, though. It was looking dicey for a bit. Hopefully democrats in Georgia remain vigilant, and I think Warnock has a good chance of defeating Walker. Walker fared poorly with Kemp on the ballot. Many people who marked the box for Kemp also marked it for Warnock. It’s hard to envision Walker doing better and getting equal turnout to dems when the senate won’t be at stake and there are no other republicans on the ticket to boost him.


----------



## Eric

Sounds like this is an unexpected win for Democrat Perez.

Prediction from 538












						Democrat Marie Gluesenkamp Perez defeats Republican Joe Kent in WA House race
					

The win sends a Democrat to Congress from a district that has long been Republican, and it bolsters Democrats' chances of possibly hanging onto their House majority.




					www.seattletimes.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> Sounds like this is an unexpected win for Democrat Perez.
> 
> Prediction from 538
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Democrat Marie Gluesenkamp Perez defeats Republican Joe Kent in WA House race
> 
> 
> The win sends a Democrat to Congress from a district that has long been Republican, and it bolsters Democrats' chances of possibly hanging onto their House majority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.seattletimes.com



Silver got famous for being right one time. Every time he’s wrong, it’s the pollsters’ fault, or it’s an asterisk, or, or, or…

People even told him his projections appeared to be way off, since they shifted inexplicably far to the right in a very short timeframe. He stuck to his flawed model anyway.

Meanwhile, this guy‘s got a model that ignores polling altogether and got every Senate race right except JD Vance. It’s looking like he might be right about the House too, perhaps off by a couple seats, but RCP and 538 were laughably far off.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591624970526154754/

Here’s a tweet of his from the day before the election:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1589574694835220480/


----------



## Cmaier

SuperMatt said:


> Silver got famous for being right one time. Every time he’s wrong, it’s the pollsters’ fault, or it’s an asterisk, or, or, or…
> 
> People even told him his projections appeared to be way off, since they shifted inexplicably far to the right in a very short timeframe. He stuck to his flawed model anyway.
> 
> Meanwhile, this guy‘s got a model that ignores polling altogether and got every Senate race right except JD Vance. It’s looking like he might be right about the House too, perhaps off by a couple seats, but RCP and 538 were laughably far off.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591624970526154754/
> 
> Here’s a tweet of his from the day before the election:
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1589574694835220480/




I don’t get it. Silver wasn’t “wrong.: Saying that there is a 2 in 100 chance of something happening isn’t a prediction that it won’t happen. That’s not what the 538 models do.  538 doesn’t make predictions about what will happen, only about what the odds of something happening are.


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> I don’t get it. Silver wasn’t “wrong.: Saying that there is a 2 in 100 chance of something happening isn’t a prediction that it won’t happen. That’s not what the 538 models do.  538 doesn’t make predictions about what will happen, only about what the odds of something happening are.



The headline of "Kent is _clearly favored_ to win Washington’s 3rd District" makes it sound like a prediction.


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> The headline of "Kent is _clearly favored_ to win Washington’s 3rd District" makes it sound like a prediction.



Does it? To me it sounds like a statement of the odds.  “It is clearly unlikely that you will win the lottery” is not “you will not win the lottery.”  538 doesn’t make predictions - it’s whole point is simply to mathematically aggregate polls to produce a percentage likelihood of an event, along with error bars.


----------



## GermanSuplex

That race was the reverse of Liz Cheney - republicans picked a Trumper over the Republican incumbent who voted to impeach Trump, and now the district has flipped.

So that makes it even sweeter.


----------



## rdrr

Are we getting blue checkmark punked?


----------



## SuperMatt

I came up with a new model based on polls that says the probability of a coin landing heads is 98%. If the actual results of 435 coin flips turn closer to 50%, I’m not wrong. It’s just a statement of the odds… according to me.


----------



## Eric

Cmaier said:


> Does it? To me it sounds like a statement of the odds.  “It is clearly unlikely that you will win the lottery” is not “you will not win the lottery.”  538 doesn’t make predictions - it’s whole point is simply to mathematically aggregate polls to produce a percentage likelihood of an event, along with error bars.



I read it as a straight up prediction, they're adding an opinion based on their data. I also think they've been off enough over the years to lack any credibility in doing so, granted they can only base it on whatever data is available at the time.


----------



## lizkat

Not to derail the current subtopic here, so consider it just a newsflash, and a nice one in advance for 2024 sanity...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591636557454348289/


----------



## SuperMatt

Eric said:


> I read it as a straight up prediction, they're adding an opinion based on their data. I also think they've been off enough over the years to lack any credibility in doing so, granted they can only base it on whatever data is available at the time.



Perhaps we cannot blame Nate Silver. He is dealing with bad data. Polling is just as outdated as Nielsen ratings (Credit on that comparison to Jon Stewart). I recommend the latest episode of his Apple TV show, where he covers polling, among many other aspects of the 2022 midterms.


----------



## Edd

Catherine Cortez Masto defeats Adam Laxalt in Nevada, clinching control of Senate for Democrats
					

Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto has defeated Republican challenger Adam Laxalt in Nevada by the slimmest of margins, ensuring that Democrats will keep control of the U.S. Senate.




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## Alli

We got in bed last night just as the news of Cortez Masto’s win started coming in. Husband and I each immediately went to ActBlue and gave Warnock another donation.

With any luck we can also hold the House. Not sure if I can hold my breath until Thursday though. But right now I feel really good.

Anyone here have Andy thoughts on McConnell and his threatened retirement if he doesn’t regain leadership?


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> Perhaps we cannot blame Nate Silver. He is dealing with bad data. Polling is just as outdated as Nielsen ratings (Credit on that comparison to Jon Stewart). I recommend the latest episode of his Apple TV show, where he covers polling, among many other aspects of the 2022 midterms.



Yeah I don't blame anyone personally TBH when it comes to this, I think the biggest issue is it's hard to get actual accurate polling data, especially now that nobody seems to trust the system anymore.


----------



## Herdfan

GermanSuplex said:


> It’s sad that this issue keeps coming up. Right-wing comment sections are filled with people wondering why counties with 10k people get votes counted quickly, and then get mad when it takes longer for counties with 3 million people to count, and that later-tallied vote pushes the democrat over the top.




Maybe.  But FL with 22M people had theirs counted election night.

Nevada has 3.1M and Arizona has 7.3M


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> Yeah I don't blame anyone personally TBH when it comes to this, I think the biggest issue is it's hard to get actual accurate polling data, especially now that nobody seems to trust the system anymore.




Plus, it is hard to determine exactly who will show up on election day.  They can model all they want, but they can't predict what the people will actually do.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> Plus, it is hard to determine exactly who will show up on election day.  They can model all they want, but they can't predict what the people will actually do.




This is true. From what I'm gathering, this election came as such a surprise primarily because a large demographic of people who traditionally don't get off their asses to vote in the midterms, and are thus usually ignored by the pollsters, actually got off their asses to vote in this midterm.


----------



## Eric

IMO people are just dissatisfied all the way around on both sides, it really just came down to turnout which is typically low for the party in power during the midterms. Trump and abortion dogged Republicans this time around, otherwise they could've easily made a clean sweep of it.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> Maybe.  But FL with 22M people had theirs counted election night.
> 
> Nevada has 3.1M and Arizona has 7.3M




This might be due to the fact of Florida possibly having a more streamlined counting process, and the fact that the margins were pretty clear long before every single vote was counted. If you look at Florida's numbers, all the candidates won by 5 to 25 point margins. There wasn't any ambiguity over who was going to win even hours before their elections were called.

Nevada and Arizona, in contrast, had candidates who were winning and losing by razor thin margins. When you have Congressman A beating Congressman B by a mere 300 votes, and there are still X amount of counties with, say, 15,000 people voting, those last handful of standing ballots out in the weeds really start to count, and it consumes more time to count them.


----------



## shadow puppet

I can't stop smiling.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591620482578661377/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591628143559077889/


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> I can't stop smiling.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591620482578661377/
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591628143559077889/




Yah, poor Mitch...


​


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> Maybe.  But FL with 22M people had theirs counted election night.
> 
> Nevada has 3.1M and Arizona has 7.3M




States run their elections differently, and many of these late votes are being counted under rules enacted by Republican legislatures.

And these are not new issues. It’s not like we just started doing elections like this yesterday. If you demonize mail-in voting and drop boxes, don’t be surprised when those votes favor democrats.

The comments that I’m reading on these news articles from conservatives are not rational, it’s just whining about “shady things” because in many cases, these late votes break for democrats. I’m sorry, but there’s very rational reasons as to why that is.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Maybe.  But FL with 22M people had theirs counted election night.
> 
> Nevada has 3.1M and Arizona has 7.3M




Well plenty of contests had ENOUGH votes counted to be able to call those races...  by end of election night it's often possible to see from reggie data and cast vote data whether or not what's outstanding can still affect the outcome.

Aside from the mechanics of what kind of ballots and how they are cast, processed, counted and reported,  all 50 states can have different laws that govern dates and times by which

ballots not cast in person (domestic absentee, military, overseas citizens) must be received,​
mailed and dropped-off ballots can be​a) opened​b) processed for eligibility v. registration info​c) actually counted​d) officially reported​
Some states allow a curative process if a ballot contains errors  like a mismatched signature or detail of ID,  where the person may be notified and can then come in person with ID and attempt to prove eligibility or fix the error.

TL;DR  *it takes time to ensure maximum opportunity* *to respect the right to vote* *and also still ensure against fraud.*


----------



## Edd

GermanSuplex said:


> States run their elections differently, and many of these late votes are being counted under rules enacted by Republican legislatures.
> 
> And these are not new issues. It’s not like we just started doing elections like this yesterday. If you demonize mail-in voting and drop boxes, don’t be surprised when those votes favor democrats.
> 
> The comments that I’m reading on these news articles from conservatives are not rational, it’s just whining about “shady things” because in many cases, these late votes break for democrats. I’m sorry, but there’s very rational reasons as to why that is.



Yup, on one hand, you’d think the GOP would *want* it to be easy for their base to vote, with mail-in and other methods. But when you consider most of the population doesn’t vote Republican and their politics aren’t popular, douchebags with guns hanging out near drop boxes starts to make sense.


----------



## DT

I guarantee any state that responded quickly AND lost the red vote would be under just as much scrutiny by the GQP-ers, because it has nothing to do with the validity of the process.


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> IMO people are just dissatisfied all the way around on both sides, it really just came down to turnout which is typically low for the party in power during the midterms. Trump and abortion dogged Republicans this time around, otherwise they could've easily made a clean sweep of it.




Yeah, the Gen Z in general plus some older Roe activists in particular got out there and made a huge difference.  That can backfire next time around though as far as the youth vote goes,  if implementation of key legislation of Biden admin (and some exec orders that make out of court alive) don't add up to "promises kept."



Edd said:


> Yup, on one hand, you’d think the GOP would *want* it to be easy for their base to vote, with mail-in and other methods. But when you consider most of the population doesn’t vote Republican and their politics aren’t popular, douchebags with guns hanging out near drop boxes starts to make sense.




Yeah the problem with Rs casting doubt on integrity of elections is risk of lowering turnout on their own side.

The Republicans did their usual strong messaging on chosen themes but messed up big time in sending out all kinds of conflicting messages about the actual process of casting a vote (in person, drop box, mail).  Some candidates were suggesting to hold back mailed ballots until late "so the Dems can't figure out how much to cheat by on election night."

LOL because you can track receipt of your ballot if not cast in person,  plenty Dems always just drop ballot in the mailbox anyway or a dropbox if that's an option.  So all that some of the Rs did in 2022 by saying "yeah let's do last minute dropbox" was make it take longer to count the increased volume of local absentee ballots and report the race outcome.  Most states don't let actual *counting* of those votes proceed until after polls on Election Day have closed...

Also the abortion issue was low-priority for Rs this year with only a few states having related propositions, so some lean-right voters probably threw up hands and figured hey this is a red district anyway, we got it nailed.... and just didn't bother voting.   

Ironically that sort of complacency is often also the problem with potential blue voters in urban areas.  This year the Gen Z and the abortion rights activists bumped the Dems' turnout.


----------



## Deleted member 215

It's pretty amusing hearing Republicans desperately search for reasons why they didn't do as well as they thought they would. I've heard everything from "young people didn't vote" (actually they did, and they didn't vote for you) to "well, they did well in Florida and that's what's important" (turns out Florida is not a microcosm of the U.S. It's just the red version of California. I'm thinking more and more a DeSantis vs. Newsom race would be hilarious).

Republicans' only plan on inflation was yelling about inflation.


----------



## Eric

Trump is currently pointing fingers and blaming people, instead of actually taking a realistic look at what's going on and addressing the concerns of real people. This is what cost them the election, if they want to succeed they need to bind together and get rid of him. My guess is they're finally taking a close look at that.


----------



## Yoused

No cultural appropriation here.

None at all.

No, no, no.









						Kari Lake supporters reenact Biblical Battle of Jericho in Maricopa protest
					

"Christian nationalism is the greatest threat to democracy and the church today," Reverend Nathan Empsall told Newsweek, commenting on the Arizona protest.




					www.newsweek.com
				




fucking _shofars_ – total assholes


----------



## Edd

Yoused said:


> No cultural appropriation here.
> 
> None at all.
> 
> No, no, no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kari Lake supporters reenact Biblical Battle of Jericho in Maricopa protest
> 
> 
> "Christian nationalism is the greatest threat to democracy and the church today," Reverend Nathan Empsall told Newsweek, commenting on the Arizona protest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fucking _shofars_ – total assholes



Ewww, she’s a creepy bitch, I hate her.


----------



## Cmaier

Yoused said:


> No cultural appropriation here.
> 
> None at all.
> 
> No, no, no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kari Lake supporters reenact Biblical Battle of Jericho in Maricopa protest
> 
> 
> "Christian nationalism is the greatest threat to democracy and the church today," Reverend Nathan Empsall told Newsweek, commenting on the Arizona protest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fucking _shofars_ – total assholes



On behalf of the jews, she can have our shofars.  They are annoying.  When was the last time you heard a shofar on a rock song?


----------



## DT

Cmaier said:


> [...] shofar on a rock song?




Let me just say, the above is worth a Google search


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> On behalf of the jews, she can have our shofars.  They are annoying.  When was the last time you heard a shofar on a rock song?






DT said:


> Let me just say, the above is worth a Google search




Well they say there's nothing new under the sun so if it has ever happened, and since the internet is forever,  surely the evidence can be turned up.

Meanwhile the Dem in CO-3 is trying to get out ahead of the inevitable shofar-blowing circus if BoBo goes down to defeat in a very close race out there.   He's explaining why by CO law the vote takes so long to count...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591836291389591552/​


----------



## shadow puppet

lizkat said:


> Meanwhile the Dem in CO-3 is trying to get out ahead of the inevitable shofar-blowing circus if BoBo goes down to defeat in a very close race out there.   He's explaining why by CO law the vote takes so long to count...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591836291389591552/​



Why CO-3 didn't overwhelmingly vote for the saner candidate is beyond me.


----------



## Renzatic

Cmaier said:


> On behalf of the jews, she can have our shofars.  They are annoying.  When was the last time you heard a shofar on a rock song?




I looked it up, and it turns out there's apparently a big Hasidic punk rock scene in New York, and they'll sometimes break out the shofar.

So I guess it is a thing.


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> Why CO-3 didn't overwhelmingly vote for the saner candidate is beyond me.




Same.  She is really off the wall.  Not just wacky or loud.  Alarmingly unhinged but apparently making money off it as she traveled around to other red states going to rallies and getting free press doing it.

Past that it must be potential voter inattention.  There have been interviews of likely voters in CO-3 who have pointed out with annoyance her loud mini-Trump act,  and traveling around just to get media attention instead of buckling down to get Colorado residents some help on their issues.









						Rep. Boebert is locked in an unexpectedly close race. Some constituents say they're tired of a 'mini Trump.'
					

Democrat Adam Frisch, a former Aspen city councilman, has helped turn it into one of the most closely watched midterm elections in the nation.




					www.nbcnews.com
				




That district is so huge and sprawling, mostly rural... Fifty thousand square miles and an average of  15 people per square mile with a few big cities so the actual pop in the rural areas is miniscule.

https://censusreporter.org/profiles/50000US0803-congressional-district-3-co/

The areas around like Grand Junction or Pueblo or even the much smaller but civic-minded Aspen have some liberal activists...  but a lot of the latter could be seasonal residents.   We might see them quoted on Colorado issues (water, environmental etc) but they may have to vote from CA or NY...

I'd say part of the problem for Dems there might also be that absentee ranch owner and celebrity ski lodge owners might not be fans of Trump the man or Boebert either,  but they're fine with Republican tax policy so they just vote a straight R every time and go on about their business. 

People doing that will eventually help pull down the curtain on this version of the GOP as their side of the House fills up with cretinous anti-government clowns  --finally subject to removal when a district misses out on some enterprise or social service opportunity and NOTICES it--    but in the meantime what can you do.  The right-leaning populists and the hold-nose-and-vote-R crowd are enough in a sparsely populated area to make a majority that dwindles but is still above the waterline for insisting on having a perpetual pool party in the House.

The people in the other 2/3 of  Colorado do tend to represent more promise for Democrats.   There are probably enough D-leaners in CO-3 to defeat an incumbent like Boebert, but reaching them will have been really expensive or just geographically difficult.   Anyone who says right now that they know Frisch can flip this seat blue is probably lying.


----------



## Herdfan

Edd said:


> Yup, on one hand, you’d think the GOP would *want* it to be easy for their base to vote, with mail-in and other methods. *But when you consider most of the population doesn’t vote Republican *and their politics aren’t popular, douchebags with guns hanging out near drop boxes starts to make sense.




Seems they did.

Total Congressional Votes:

GOP - 52,132,213 (51.7%)

DEM - 47,127,174 (46.8%)









						2022 National House Vote Tracker
					






					www.cookpolitical.com


----------



## lizkat

Edd said:


> Yup, on one hand, you’d think the GOP would *want* it to be easy for their base to vote, with mail-in and other methods. *But when you consider most of the population doesn’t vote Republican *and their politics aren’t popular, douchebags with guns hanging out near drop boxes starts to make sense.






Herdfan said:


> Seems they did.
> 
> Total Congressional Votes:
> 
> GOP - 52,132,213 (51.7%)
> 
> DEM - 47,127,174 (46.8%)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2022 National House Vote Tracker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cookpolitical.com






Herdfan said:


> *Seems they did.*




"So far..."    and don't forget that "so much winning" is district by district.  A win in a purple district is more significant an indicator of "drift" towards one or the other party than is a win in a safe red or blue district.

 Grand totals are about as meaningful for congressional representation as saying that China still has more people than India.   Happens to be true but India will pass China in 2027...  and, uh... so what?  Says nothing about how people are getting by or getting along (or not) in any of the individual provinces or cities of either aggregated population.

And to get back to the status of the 2022 races,  the Ds always have higher mail-in / drop-box totals...


----------



## Renzatic

In my neck of the woods, Patriot Front are out protesting a drag club in Chattanooga. 

It's pretty dumb.


----------



## lizkat

Renzatic said:


> In my neck of the woods, Patriot Front are out protesting a drag club in Chattanooga.
> 
> It's pretty dumb.




Oh, great.   Well they are just warming up in case they have to go down into Georgia to help defend the Herschel Walker supporters'  presumed GOP-given sacred right to declare fraud  and make a scene if Warnock wins the runoff and is re-elected.

Speaking of nasty extremist groups, did you see the meme of the before and after on that 1/6 resister...  "support has consequences".


​
​


----------



## Cmaier

Renzatic said:


> I looked it up, and it turns out there's apparently a big Hasidic punk rock scene in New York, and they'll sometimes break out the shofar.
> 
> So I guess it is a thing.




When i lived in Monroe, the shofar punk rock from Kiryas Joel used to keep me up at night.


----------



## Renzatic

lizkat said:


> Oh, great. Well they are just warming up in case they have to go down into Georgia to help defend the Herschel Walker supporters' presumed GOP-given sacred right to declare fraud and make a scene if Warnock wins the runoff and is re-elected.




They better have some more members in reserve if that's their intention. Right now, it's just 10 guys in masks, and they're not doing too well controlling the 8 people waving gay pride flags at them from across the street.

Right now, I'm debating on whether this is funny, or just sad.


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> When i lived in Monroe, the shofar punk rock from Kiryas Joel usedsed  to keep me up at night.




!!   Isn't that at least five or six miles?

(I used to call nearby Chester my home away from home when commuting from NYC to Catskllls as often as three round trips a week in the late 80s.)


----------



## Cmaier

lizkat said:


> !!   Isn't that at least five or six miles?
> 
> (I used to call nearby Chester my home away from home when commuting from NYC to Catskllls as often as three round trips a week in the late 80s.)



About 3 miles from the edge of KY to McGarrah Road where I lived. 

Very familiar with Chester, though mostly i just drove through it on the way to the mall in Middletown.


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> "So far..."    and don't forget that "so much winning" is district by district.




Yeah, kind of like the Electoral College.


----------



## shadow puppet

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591620148552957953/


----------



## shadow puppet

This latest Maricopa drop literally made me nauseous.  Then I read Mueller's comment.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591966049284530176/

I want Lake to lose as much as I do Boebert.  I think we have a chance with Lake.


----------



## Hrafn

shadow puppet said:


> This latest Maricopa drop literally made me nauseous.  Then I read Mueller's comment.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591966049284530176/
> 
> I want Lake to lose as much as I do Boebert.  I think we have a chance with Lake.



I pray to God, Odin, Jahweh, Buddha, Cuthulu, the flying spaghetti monster, the Jedi, Satan, my toilet seat, don't care, just make it happen ...


----------



## shadow puppet

Hrafn said:


> I pray to God, Odin, Jahweh, Buddha, Cuthulu, the flying spaghetti monster, the Jedi, Satan, my toilet seat, don't care, just make it happen ...



I'm giving you official notice that I will be pilfering your "flying spaghetti monster".


----------



## GermanSuplex

Yeah, Hobbs may have built just enough of a padding before these Maricopa drops that Lake can’t catch her. It’s still going to be close, but Lake would need the last batch of ballots to break for her in a very high percentage, far more than what we’ve been seeing.


----------



## Cmaier

shadow puppet said:


> I'm giving you official notice that I will be pilfering your "flying spaghetti monster".




it’s not his. It belongs to all the pastafarians equally.


----------



## lizkat

Looking ahead to the December runoff election for US Senate in Georgia between incumbent Raphael Warnock and Republican challenger Herschel Walker.   Thought about putting this in a separate thread but it is after all part of the 2022 midterms.

 Anyway check this out.  One of the usual days of early voting for the Dec 6 runoff will be eliminated because of a state law about voting and holidays.   Piece in the Atlanta Journal Constitution, likely paywalled.









						Saturday voting barred in US Senate runoff after Ga. holidays
					

Early voting in a Georgia runoff for U.S. Senate can't be held on a Saturday because state law prohibits it after holidays. Georgia has two holidays before the Saturday when early voting could have been held: Thanksgiving and the state holiday formerly known as Robert E. Lee's Birthday.




					www.ajc.com
				






> Early voting won’t be allowed on a Saturday before the U.S. Senate runoff in Georgia because it’s the day after the state holiday formerly known as Robert E. Lee’s Birthday  and two days after Thanksgiving.
> 
> Georgia election officials said this weekend that state law prohibits in-person early voting on Saturdays if a holiday is within two days beforehand.
> 
> The restriction on Saturday voting leaves five days of required in-person early voting on the weekdays before the Dec. 6 runoffs. County governments* will have the option *to offer up to three more early voting days starting the day after the results of the initial election are certified, potentially on the Tuesday and Wednesday before Thanksgiving and the Sunday afterward.






> *Before general and primary elections, Georgia law requires at least 17 days of in-person early voting, including two mandatory Saturdays and two optional Sundays. In runoffs, five days of early voting are mandated. Early voting is prohibited the weekend before election day.*
> 
> The American Civil Liberties Union of Georgia disagreed with the secretary of state’s interpretation of state law, saying language preventing Saturday voting was only meant to apply to the three-week early voting period *before regularly scheduled elections.*
> 
> “Jim Crow still exists here,” said Hillary Holley, executive director of the domestic worker organization Care in Action. “Fighting for counties to offer as many days and hours as legally possible is critical.”






> In last year’s voting law, *the Republican majority in the General Assembly shortened the runoff period f*ollowing the defeats of Republican Sens. Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue in runoff elections on Jan. 5, 2021. The runoffs gave Democrats control of the U.S. Senate following wins by Democrats Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff.
> 
> This year’s runoff features Warnock and Republican Herschel Walker after neither candidate won more than 50% of the vote in last week’s election.
> 
> Early voting will begin after counties complete an election audit this week and then Raffensperger certifies the results, which could occur as soon as Nov. 21, according to the secretary of state’s office.




Sigh.  Nothing like making early voting complicated.    So the get-out-vote effort for this runoff needs to include some kind of card to distribute to note the exact early voting days county by county.    Hope they saved some ad money for these practical concerns.

I hadn't realized that in Georgia (after the Charleston, SC church shooting in 2015) the state had altered the names of two state holidays in their future official calendars, referring to them both going forward just as the date and "state holiday".   One was formerly Confederate Memorial Day on April 27.  The other was formerly celebrated as Robert E Lee Birthday and falls on the Friday after Thanksgiving.

In a 2015 interview the then governor of Georgia had this to say about removing the controversial former names of the two holidays while retaining them as days off in the official calendar:   “It’s hopefully a good faith effort on the part of state government to lower the degree of debate and discussion, and to show that we are a state that has come a very long way," he said. "We are tolerant of a lot of things. But we will also protect our heritage. But this was not one of those areas where I thought it was necessary to keep those labels associated with the holiday.”


----------



## shadow puppet

Well whaddya know?!


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> Well whaddya know?!
> 
> View attachment 19259





Hah, the internet really is forever, isn't it.   Hilarious!

Cue Bono singing the line "My how you've grown..."   in U2's "In a Little While" from album _*All That You Can't Leave Behind.*_

I do wonder if Trump ever chided her about that, and what the heck she may have said.


----------



## lizkat

Hmm.  so further to my earlier post in this thread about Georgia trying to turn early voting for the Senate runoff into a clusterf^ck... apparently the votings rights watchdogs are planning to take the SoS interpretation of the "Saturday problem" to court. 

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591849360949923842/


----------



## shadow puppet

As far as I'm concerned, Marc Elias is a national hero.


----------



## fooferdoggie

shadow puppet said:


> Well whaddya know?!
> 
> View attachment 19259



ya used to be a news reporter and dropped off into crazy land.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> ya used to be a news reporter and dropped off into crazy land.




Yeah I don't get what happened to Kari Lake really.   But she's one of millions who have ended up swearing by the guy.  It's as if personal integrity or character simply don't matter after awhile of being around his alleged charisma,  and yet the people who follow him, the media types who touted him,  the Republicans who wanted something from him, all of them are people who also talk constantly about "values" and readily demonize non-Republicans over projected failings of character.  And when confronted over Trump's issues, they excuse him.    Sigh.   It's so tiresome I stop bothering to wonder about it any more really.

There is just so much I don't understand about how people end up in thrall to this guy who is not about anyone but himself.   What he does for you, if anything, always has a huge pricetag on it at the end.  Mostly he wants you to love him because that helps fill up that terrible unloved empty place at his core.  But he will take the love for granted, and turn on you viciously if you gainsay him on anything or swing much --even some!--  attention away from him towards yourself or to someone else.  He made everyone crazy who worked for him in the White House or West Wing.  He will throw anyone under the bus.  He can't stop lying. He plotted to inflate his vote count in at least Georgia.  He incited an attempt to overthrow his own government,  hoping to retain the Presidency without the will of the people or the rule of law behind him.   And there are people looking forward to his announcing another run for President?

Who the hell would put up with someone like that for very long, or at all?  I just don't get it.


----------



## fooferdoggie

I now trumps Carisma seems pretty selective it sure does not work on me or my wife. but it has gotten most of her family. I mean no way does he live up to their values but they act like he does.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Another small batch of votes today and Hobbs continues her lead over Lake. Each time votes come in and Lake fails to eat into Hobbs lead, her chances go down. She marginally cut into Hobbs lead yesterday, but Hobbs is back up again.

Hoping we see the race called today or tomorrow.

*Lake loses! Called by NBC!









						Democrat Katie Hobbs defeats MAGA favorite Kari Lake in high-stakes race for governor in Arizona — NBC News
					

Hobbs' victory comes against a Republican many thought was the strongest of the pro-Trump election deniers running in swing states President Joe Biden carried in 2020.




					apple.news


----------



## Cmaier

Aww.  Lake seemed like a fun gal.


----------



## GermanSuplex

To paraphrase Little Richard..

_“You keep on lyin’ but you just can’t win,
Come back in four years and try it again.”_

Trump-backed candidates may go 0-4 in statewide races in Arizona. It also almost cost them a couple of Republican congressional house seats. I think these elections are very good for democracy, because those who have been able to ride Trump’s coattails or avoid his taint altogether may try to back off some of the harsher rhetoric next time.

Republicans who whine that Hobbs was SoS while running for Governor… I hear their concerns, as I had the same when it happened in Georgia with Brian Kemp, but republicans also have made the election rules in that state. So while Lake will rail against the election process in Arizona, she can’t point the blame squarely at Hobbs or democrats. They’re being carried out under Republican-made rules and processes.


----------



## Cmaier

GermanSuplex said:


> To paraphrase Little Richard..
> 
> _“You keep on lyin’ but you just can’t win,
> Come back in four years and try it again.”_
> 
> Trump-backed candidates may go 0-4 in statewide races in Arizona. It also almost cost them a couple of Republican congressional house seats. I think these elections are very good for democracy, because those who have been able to ride Trump’s coattails or avoid his taint altogether may try to back off some of the harsher rhetoric next time.
> 
> Republicans who whine that Hobbs was SoS while running for Governor… I hear their concerns, as I had the same when it happened in Georgia with Brian Kemp, but republicans also have made the election rules in that state. So while Lake will rail against the election process in Arizona, she can’t point the blame squarely at Hobbs or democrats. They’re being carried out under Republican-made rules and processes.




Here’s to hoping that Trump picks Lake as his running mate.


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> Here’s to hoping that Trump picks Lake as his running mate.




She'd meet him halfway on self-owning for sure.  Did you see the tweet she popped out as news of her loss was making its way around?


----------



## GermanSuplex

lizkat said:


> She'd meet him halfway on self-owning for sure.  Did you see the tweet she popped out as news of her loss was making its way around?
> 
> View attachment 19279​




She’s absolutely correct.


----------



## Herdfan

Cmaier said:


> Here’s to hoping that Trump picks Lake as his running mate.




Here's hoping Desantis picks her.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Here's hoping Desantis picks her.



My guess is, if Desantis has any common sense (while I disagree with his politics I don't think he's stupid), he'll distance himself from any of the election denier/nutjob Maga Trumpers. He's made it on his own steam, that will likely continue.


----------



## shadow puppet

I saw #SkariLake trending so took a look.  Thats when I saw this clip of her caught on a hot mic making a complete fool of herself.
I hope every Gen Z voter sees this.  Especially if TFG picks her as a running mate.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592512362971795456/


----------



## Deleted member 215

Midterms are always pushback against the sitting president, and Biden is very unpopular. But Biden is unpopular especially with liberal young people who would never vote for MAGA-t*rds! The "red wave" predictors didn't understand that.

But more importantly, these midterms were pushback on Trumpism and election denial, given how badly many Trump-backed candidates did (that's not to say they all did badly, and plenty of election deniers were elected). But it is reassuring to see pushback on this. It's also reassuring to see the fear-mongering "election violence" predictions of the mainstream media turned out to be BS.

Not sure where DeSantis goes from here. Trump is still the face of the GOP and there's no way he's going to back down in favor of DeSantis. Trump doesn't care about the "conservative project" in the way that DeSantis does. (That's part of why I think DeSantis will be worse).

Finally: heard a funny bit on Chapo about a conservative Trumper saying he didn't even vote in the midterms because he's convinced it's all fake. Good job, election deniers. You convinced your own people not to vote.


----------



## shadow puppet

This needs to be shared.  Hilarious.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591672174544588802/


----------



## lizkat

Meanwhile AZ's half-blue Manchin sidekick and problematic "Dem" Senator Sinema is called out for hypocritical congrats to Katie Hobbs in the governor's race versus Kari Lake.  Sinema was apparently invisible in AZ during the season but is now flinging the word "we" around with abandon.      The reply I picked below is one of the civil ones...





​


----------



## shadow puppet

Although I agree it's time for the older generation (Biden, TFG, etc) to step away, for the record from what I've read, the Dems lost fewer seats in the House of Representatives than any Democratic president’s first midterm election in at least 40 years. Plus had the best midterms for Governors since 1986.  Because as much as naysayers try to spin this, President Biden had the most successful midterms any 1st term President has ever had.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1591294598986760192/

I'm not saying Biden is the most popular President of all time but if the polls were wrong about the midterms maybe the same goes for President Biden's approval numbers.  You can get a lot done when your main focus isn't golf.


----------



## shadow puppet

While reading in bed last night I came across this and howled.  Kari Lake is a true piece of work.  Losing couldn't happen to a better person.  Well, maybe except Boebert if that wish had also come true.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592340964982808576/


----------



## DT

shadow puppet said:


> While reading in bed last night I came across this and howled.  Kari Lake is a true piece of work.  Losing couldn't happen to a better person.  Well, maybe except Boebert if that wish had also come true.




Listen to her (if you can stomach it ...) in this interview, she sounds goddam insane, and the talk about guns?  Exactly, federal government, be ready.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1503171879129001992/


----------



## shadow puppet

I knew about yesterday's recount flipping a seat to Dems by +1 vote, but just learned it happened again, by +2.
These recounts aren't going so well for the GOP.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592582728377315329/


----------



## shadow puppet

DT said:


> Listen to her (if you can stomach it ...) in this interview, she sounds goddam insane, and the talk about guns?  Exactly, federal government, be ready.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1503171879129001992/



She gets uglier with each additional interview I see of her.  This one was quite a whammy though.  She simply cannot handle being called out.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

shadow puppet said:


> She gets uglier with each additional interview I see of her.  This one was quite a whammy though.  She simply cannot handle being called out.




If you really want to see these supposed tough rightwing women’s skull pop off their shoulders ask them if they’ve always believed they are second-class citizens and subservient to men or did they decide that recently.


----------



## shadow puppet

Welcome ladies!   

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592525060396703744/


----------



## shadow puppet

WTAF?  Found this retweeted by Alexander Vindman.
Who someone votes for is none of their damn business.   If Boebert had any part in this she is even trashier than previously thought.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592620534503985153/


----------



## DT

shadow puppet said:


> WTAF?  Found this retweeted by Alexander Vindman.
> Who someone votes for is none of their damn business.   If Boebert had any part in this she is even trashier than previously thought.




I guess there's some legit version of this (i.e., vote curing), but I think my answer might be, "I voted for putting my foot up your ass!"


----------



## lizkat

DT said:


> I guess there's some legit version of this (i.e., vote curing), but I think my answer might be, "I voted for putting my foot up your ass!"




Yeah that's *not *how vote curing works.   Vote curing they contact you by phone or email from the board of elections and inform you of an error in your ballot and you have the opportunity to come in or transmit electronically a correction of whatever is the problem,  i.e. variance in exact name on reggie or a signature discrepancy on outer absentee ballot envelope vs registration records etc.

[ EDIT:   well that's not how vote curing works in New York State ]


----------



## shadow puppet

This is how you write a headline.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592701068995084290/


----------



## DT

lizkat said:


> Yeah that's *not *how vote curing works.   Vote curing they contact you by phone or email from the board of elections and inform you of an error in your ballot and you have the opportunity to come in or transmit electronically a correction of whatever is the problem,  i.e. variance in exact name on reggie or a signature discrepancy on outer absentee ballot envelope vs registration records etc.




Ahh, OK, I knew there was some initial contact via phone and other mechanisms, I wasn’t 100% sure this wasn't some kind of follow up that's part of the process.  It certainly seemed sketchy as hell, like asking the person to confirm their identity, er, maybe, but then just asking about their voting choice, yikes. 

Hahaha, and the guy (was that Zemo from Hydra?  ) having a conversation with the Ring camera


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> Yeah that's *not *how vote curing works.   Vote curing they contact you by phone or email *from the board of elections *and inform you of an error in your ballot and you have the opportunity to come in or transmit electronically a correction of whatever is the problem,  i.e. variance in exact name on reggie or a signature discrepancy on outer absentee ballot envelope vs registration records etc.




Maybe in NY.  But in Nevada outside groups can also call and try to help people cure their ballots.









						Culinary Union tracking down Nevada voters with ballots that need to be cured
					

Thousands of votes cast in Nevada may not count because of issues with a voter’s signature. Hundreds of volunteers with the Culinary Union are trying to make sure every one of those votes counts.




					www.fox5vegas.com
				




This is where the GOP is getting their handed to them. They need a similar effort.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Maybe in NY.  But in Nevada outside groups can also call and try to help people cure their ballots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Culinary Union tracking down Nevada voters with ballots that need to be cured
> 
> 
> Thousands of votes cast in Nevada may not count because of issues with a voter’s signature. Hundreds of volunteers with the Culinary Union are trying to make sure every one of those votes counts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5vegas.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is where the GOP is getting their handed to them. They need a similar effort.



As one of our few Republicans I'm curious who you're liking this time around, are you a Desantis fan?


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> As one of our few Republicans I'm curious who you're liking this time around, are you a Desantis fan?




As of today, yes.  Will not vote for Trump in the primary.  Need to see when the AZ primary is.  My vote may actually count this time.


----------



## Herdfan

shadow puppet said:


> Welcome ladies!
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592525060396703744/




Forgot a few:

Gov. Kay Ivey
Gov. Kim Reynolds
Gov. Sarah Huckabee Sanders
Gov. Kristi Noem


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Forgot a few:
> 
> Gov. Kay Ivey
> Gov. Kim Reynolds
> Gov. Sarah Huckabee Sanders
> Gov. Kristi Noem



Not exactly a red wave but they still took the House. Now if we can all work together on areas we agree for a change it would go a long way for everyone.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Maybe in NY.  But in Nevada outside groups can also call and try to help people cure their ballots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Culinary Union tracking down Nevada voters with ballots that need to be cured
> 
> 
> Thousands of votes cast in Nevada may not count because of issues with a voter’s signature. Hundreds of volunteers with the Culinary Union are trying to make sure every one of those votes counts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5vegas.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is where the GOP is getting their handed to them. They need a similar effort.




I stand corrected!     Wow, if it were like that in NY then in at least the boondocks up here, not sure people getting up on people's porches uninvited never mind asking personal questions would fare very well.


----------



## Eric

I know we've joked about this, but wow   









						Almost Twice as Many Republicans Died From COVID Before the Midterms Than Democrats
					

The authors of a new study can’t say if this impacted the midterms, but say that it’s “plausible given just how stark the differences in vaccination rates have been, among Democrats and Republicans.”




					www.vice.com
				






> The authors of a new study can’t say if this impacted the midterms, but say that it’s “plausible given just how stark the differences in vaccination rates have been, among Democrats and Republicans.”


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> I know we've joked about this, but wow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Almost Twice as Many Republicans Died From COVID Before the Midterms Than Democrats
> 
> 
> The authors of a new study can’t say if this impacted the midterms, but say that it’s “plausible given just how stark the differences in vaccination rates have been, among Democrats and Republicans.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com




But older voters tend to be more Republican and COVID killed more older people.  So not sure it is a DvR issue as much as simply demographics.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> But older voters tend to be more Republican and COVID killed more older people.  So not sure it is a DvR issue as much as simply demographics.




The old people voted for their own deaths, so why should we care?


----------



## Herdfan

Renzatic said:


> The old people voted for their own deaths, so why should we care?



You mean the ones in NY and MI nursing homes?


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> But older voters tend to be more Republican and COVID killed more older people.  So not sure it is a DvR issue as much as simply demographics.




If only somebody studied where COVID deaths occurred and posted the results on the internet...



> Trump-leaning counties have far lower vaccination rates than those that went for President Biden. NPR's analysis showed that the gap was 21 points, with 81% of adults vaccinated in heavily-Biden counties compared to 60% of adults in counties that went for Trump.












						Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame
					

An analysis by NPR shows that since the vaccine rollout, counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump have had more than twice the COVID mortality rates of those that voted for Joe Biden.




					www.npr.org
				






			https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2022-02-03/counties-that-voted-for-trump-have-higher-covid-death-rates
		










						Pro-Trump counties continue to suffer far higher COVID death tolls
					

As Americans commemorate a million deaths due to COVID-19, the partisan divide of who has gotten sick and died continues to grow, mostly due to disinformation about the vaccines.




					www.npr.org


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> You mean the ones in NY and MI nursing homes?



Dammit, I thought the shitposting Olympics were over. Oh well, I hope they don’t preempt Bachelor in Paradise tonight...


----------



## ronntaylor

SuperMatt said:


> If only somebody studied where COVID deaths occurred and posted the results on the internet...



Why let facts and stats get in the way of BS postings?


----------



## shadow puppet

McConnnell has been re-elected as Senate GOP leader.


----------



## SuperMatt

shadow puppet said:


> McConnnell has been re-elected as Senate GOP leader.



*Minority* leader


----------



## shadow puppet

SuperMatt said:


> *Minority* leader



I stand corrected.


----------



## fooferdoggie

shadow puppet said:


> McConnnell has been re-elected as Senate GOP leader.



you have the fully corrupt asshole who will do anything to win or the flake that lost the red wave. what a choice.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> you have the fully corrupt asshole who will do anything to win or the flake that lost the red wave. what a choice.




I'll take McConnell over Scott any day of the week.  It's bad enough the House is a circus with a bunch of insurrectionists wagging the dog in the GOP aisles.    I'm just grateful Mitch is only the minority leader again.


----------



## shadow puppet

lizkat said:


> I'll take McConnell over Scott any day of the week.  It's bad enough the House is a circus with a bunch of insurrectionists wagging the dog in the GOP aisles.    I'm just grateful Mitch is only the minority leader again.



What is it about Scott you don't like?  Just asking because I'm unfamiliar with the man.


----------



## Renzatic

Meanwhile, I ENGAGE IN MORE FACEBOOK SHENANIGANS!





I just think it's really unfair how liberals keep calling these fine ladies and gentlmen racists, despite the fact that they're all fucking racists.


----------



## DT

Renzatic said:


> Meanwhile, I ENGAGE IN MORE FACEBOOK SHENANIGANS!
> 
> I just think it's really unfair how liberals keep calling these fine ladies and gentlmen racists, despite the fact that they're all fucking racists.





Hahaha, JFC, do you think, or at least hope, a few of those folks are in on the joke ... ?


----------



## Alli

shadow puppet said:


> What is it about Scott you don't like?  Just asking because I'm unfamiliar with the man.



Can we start with him running the biggest Medicare scam in Florida history?


----------



## shadow puppet

Can someone please enlighten me how this guy made it this far?  Seriously, listen to this nut job's podium speech. 
I can only imagine his kind of crazy giving speeches on the Senate floor.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592971906218876929/


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> What is it about Scott you don't like?  Just asking because I'm unfamiliar with the man.




Just about everything, actually...  here is a sample, from while he was CEO of a Florida company which at the time was the largest of the USA's for-profit healthcare outfits:

"During his tenure as chief executive, the company defrauded Medicare, Medicaid, and other federal programs. The Department of Justice won 14 felony convictions against the company, which was fined $1.7 billion in what was at the time the largest healthcare fraud settlement in U.S. history."​​Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Scott#Investigation_and_settlement​
Anyway, the now US Senator Rick Scott is a former governor of Florida and current junior Senator from that state, elected in 2020.  He has been a Trump supporter although took public exception sometimes to a few of Trump's outed character flaws during the 2016 campaign.    In the just-ended challenge for leader of the GOP conference of the Senate, he got 10 votes to Mitch's 37,  so it's not like McConnell was in real danger of being deposed.

However I found his nomination distressing, not least because it was Senator Ron Johnson who nominated Scott, plus the fact that even a handful of other Senators went along with the idea. 

The main problem with Scott is his radical "11 Point Plan to Rescue America".   Some of its proposals were remarkable enough so that even a number of other Republican Senators openly and immediately distanced themselves from it.









						Rick Scott - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



McConnell for all his hyperpartisan maneuvering is still a person capable of leading negotiations with Democrats that end with something of benefit to the USA's national interests if not necessarily to any benefit of the downtrodden amongst us.   For instance he took issue with the House Freedom Caucus trying to nudge the USA into default on our financial obligations via a shutdown over budget appropriations and applied some arcane Senate rules and protocols to prevent that happening. 

I am not at all sure Rick Scott would have done more than step back to see "what would actually happen" if the USA defaulted on Treasury obligations owned by foreign nations.  After all, he is on record as having advocated that *all* federal legislation should be sunsetted after five years and have to be voted back in again to take effect.  Social Security, Medicaid, USDA food assistance programs...  everything.   That whole House caucus attitude --in support of just burning the place down--  doesn't sit well with me  and I'd hate to see it gain more traction in the Senate.


----------



## Renzatic

DT said:


> Hahaha, JFC, do you think, or at least hope, a few of those folks are in on the joke ... ?




One rare occasion, I'll run across someone who's in on it. Most of the time, and with ole Herb in particular, they're oblivious to the leading sarcasm.


----------



## Renzatic

shadow puppet said:


> Can someone please enlighten me how this guy made it this far?  Seriously, listen to this nut job's podium speech.
> I can only imagine his kind of crazy giving speeches on the Senate floor.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592971906218876929/




I can't say that's an appropriate topic for a stump speech, but he's not wrong.


----------



## shadow puppet

Renzatic said:


> I can't say that's an appropriate topic for a stump speech, but he's not wrong.



I can always count on you, @Renzatic, for my daily laugh.  Thanks, dude.


----------



## DT

Cmaier said:


> On behalf of the jews, she can have our shofars.  They are annoying.  When was the last time you heard a shofar on a rock song?




Bummer, you missed an opportunity to do this at Mar-a-Lago last night ...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592965152135335936/


----------



## GermanSuplex

Republicans just gained the last seat needed to win the house. Or, as Trump puts it, “a resounding victory for me and my endorsement! Republicans would have done far worse without me!”

Just a few weeks until inauguration and we’re off to the races. A divided government and a Republican house where everyone is a kingmaker.


----------



## Deleted member 215

So...guess it's time for that Biden impeachment.


----------



## GermanSuplex

TBL said:


> So...guess it's time for that Biden impeachment.




Would be good for democrats come election time. But I don’t doubt that they’ll triple-down on stupid. It’s all they’ve done the last six years.


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> McConnell for all his hyperpartisan maneuvering is still a person capable of leading negotiations with Democrats




McConnell is just as thin-skinned as Trump.  He pulled funds from AZ, which while Masters wasn't a great candidate, it was still a winnable race, because Masters was non-committal if would support McConnell as Leader.  Mitch would rather be head of the minority instead of just a Senator in the majority.


----------



## Herdfan

TBL said:


> So...guess it's time for that Biden impeachment.




Biden?  No.  Mayorkas? Absolutely.


----------



## fooferdoggie

DT said:


> Bummer, you missed an opportunity to do this at Mar-a-Lago last night ...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1592965152135335936/



Just go to a park and collect some squirrels and let them loose on the guys. they will vanish till next spring.


----------



## shadow puppet

So happy to see this come to fruition.









						CNN Projection: Democrat Karen Bass will make history as first woman mayor of Los Angeles
					

Find election results for the US 2022 Midterm Election here. Follow CNN's live coverage and results of key House races for Wednesday, Nov. 16.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> McConnell is just as thin-skinned as Trump.  He pulled funds from AZ, which *while Masters wasn't a great candidate, it was still a winnable race,* because Masters was non-committal if would support McConnell as Leader.  Mitch would rather be head of the minority instead of just a Senator in the majority.




Blake Masters was a bridge too far to the right (even in Arizona) for the Senate in McConnell's eyes.

You're right that it would serve McConnell's leadership head count well not to have to put Masters in the "what will it take to get his vote?" for the upcoming Congressional session,    but there was more to it than that there.  Not just a loathing of Trump or fact that Trump endorsed Masters.

 Maybe it was the fact that Masters had had such truly extreme and nationalistic views on his website for awhile before he scrubbed some of them,  and toned others way down, even denied he had ever thought about some of the potential spinoffs of his draconian takes on appropriate legislation.  

Mitch is a consummate cynic --and entirely capable,  as we all know--  of saying one thing and then doing another, but maybe some of the things Blake Masters had once said he stood for were just too much for McConnell to stomach.

McConnell is an establishment creature and a conservative Senator underneath all of his machinations.

Blake Masters is not that.  In the other chamber, he would have made quite the House hothead in the GOP's House Freedom Caucus, and people would have competed for ringside seats to see him and Gym Jordan eventually duke it out to run that circus.  The guy is arrogant enough to figure he could just walk in and start running stuff. You can imagine Jordan taking exception.  But Masters wasn't inclined to pay dues as a House member anyway.  He went straight for a Senate seat.

McConnell didn't want that, and worked hard to prevent it.  I won't give Mitch credit for the result since it was Arizona voters who re-elected Kelly, and after all Masters had Peter Thiel levels of money for his side of that contest.  Sure Mitch would rather AZ have a conservative Republican than a Democrat of any stripe  in that seat, but maybe just not a guy so indisputably far off the charts.     Masters has filled his brain with some real burn-the-place-down stuff over the years and has commented that more people should be familiar with the kind of subversive thinking in the manifesto of Ted Kaczinski, the unabomber.   I mean c'mon man.  

Anyway Arizona officialdom was trending too crazy.   Imagine adding Lake and Masters.  The two of them make Senator Sinema look positively small-d democratic, which who knows if she even really is any more.  But if Lake had won the governorship and Masters a seat in the Senate, wow.   Whatever one thinks of any state in the union there are limits an American should wish for it in the way of malformed capabilities.   

[ On the other hand and a bit off topic,  Dems should give some thought to what it is that causes people in red states to have turned to these faux populists.  Clearly, a lot of the unhappy do vote and certainly not for the Ds even if not for establishment Rs either.  What do they want?  How to work across party lines so that so many people are not so unhappy as to make irrational choices about ways to climb out of discontent? ]


----------



## Eric

lizkat said:


> Just about everything, actually...  here is a sample, from while he was CEO of a Florida company which at the time was the largest of the USA's for-profit healthcare outfits:
> 
> "During his tenure as chief executive, the company defrauded Medicare, Medicaid, and other federal programs. The Department of Justice won 14 felony convictions against the company, which was fined $1.7 billion in what was at the time the largest healthcare fraud settlement in U.S. history."​​Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Scott#Investigation_and_settlement​
> Anyway, the now US Senator Rick Scott is a former governor of Florida and current junior Senator from that state, elected in 2020.  He has been a Trump supporter although took public exception sometimes to a few of Trump's outed character flaws during the 2016 campaign.    In the just-ended challenge for leader of the GOP conference of the Senate, he got 10 votes to Mitch's 37,  so it's not like McConnell was in real danger of being deposed.
> 
> However I found his nomination distressing, not least because it was Senator Ron Johnson who nominated Scott, plus the fact that even a handful of other Senators went along with the idea.
> 
> The main problem with Scott is his radical "11 Point Plan to Rescue America".   Some of its proposals were remarkable enough so that even a number of other Republican Senators openly and immediately distanced themselves from it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Scott - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> McConnell for all his hyperpartisan maneuvering is still a person capable of leading negotiations with Democrats that end with something of benefit to the USA's national interests if not necessarily to any benefit of the downtrodden amongst us.   For instance he took issue with the House Freedom Caucus trying to nudge the USA into default on our financial obligations via a shutdown over budget appropriations and applied some arcane Senate rules and protocols to prevent that happening.
> 
> I am not at all sure Rick Scott would have done more than step back to see "what would actually happen" if the USA defaulted on Treasury obligations owned by foreign nations.  After all, he is on record as having advocated that *all* federal legislation should be sunsetted after five years and have to be voted back in again to take effect.  Social Security, Medicaid, USDA food assistance programs...  everything.   That whole House caucus attitude --in support of just burning the place down--  doesn't sit well with me  and I'd hate to see it gain more traction in the Senate.



I agree about MCconnell, he's as Conservative as they come but he's also shown to be capable of reason and doesn't play all the partisan BS that the extremists do. I don't mind disagreeing on issues with stand up people.

Right now I have to say that I've had it with the extremes of both parties and the whole "it's my way or the highway" stuff, it's like either side only wants to work for their own party and not attempt to meet in the middle, which is literally just about 50% of the people. I know we won't always get a long but even a bit of decorum would be a nice change of pace after the last several years. IMO it'll never happen with Trump in the picture, we need cooler heads to prevail.


----------



## shadow puppet

I am thoroughly enjoying the commentary on Kari's Twitter page.


----------



## Eric

Eric said:


> *I agree about MCconnell, he's as Conservative as they come but he's also shown to be capable of reason and doesn't play all the partisan BS that the extremists do*. I don't mind disagreeing on issues with stand up people.
> 
> Right now I have to say that I've had it with the extremes of both parties and the whole "it's my way or the highway" stuff, it's like either side only wants to work for their own party and not attempt to meet in the middle, which is literally just about 50% of the people. I know we won't always get a long but even a bit of decorum would be a nice change of pace after the last several years. IMO it'll never happen with Trump in the picture, we need cooler heads to prevail.



Perhaps I spoke to soon lol


----------



## Cmaier

Eric said:


> Perhaps I spoke to soon lol
> 
> 
> Senator Mitch McConnell who is in an interracial marriage, voted against interracial marriage. from
> LeopardsAteMyFace




He’s looking for an easier way out than divorce.


----------



## quagmire

Herdfan said:


> McConnell is just as thin-skinned as Trump.  He pulled funds from AZ, which while Masters wasn't a great candidate, it was still a winnable race, because Masters was non-committal if would support McConnell as Leader.  Mitch would rather be head of the minority instead of just a Senator in the majority.



 Is that you Ted Cruz?


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> Perhaps I spoke to soon lol






Cmaier said:


> He’s looking for an easier way out than divorce.




It was a *procedural *vote to move a bill to debate on the floor.  The guy can count.   McConnell knew it needed 60 votes,  which implied needing 10 votes from Republicans.  He also knew there were 12 Yes votes that would actually come from Republicans.  So he knew the bill would indeed advance to the floor.

That margin of 2 votes favoring passage did allow him to vote No with the majority of the party he leads in the Senate.  *His own vote ends up looking like he led that group*. It mattered that he be in sync with the majority of the Rs on that bill, even though their sentiment did not prevail, and regardless of his own feeling about the bill's actual merits.

Surely he's able to compartmentalize.  He's a cynic but he's not stupid.  He certainly needed to be seen as "on the correct side" of a party conference that just yesterday chose him to be minority leader for the next term,  after an unusual challenge that he only won by a 37-10 vote.  HIs wife is a politician too and she gets that (regardless of his, her or their views on what exactly is an interracial marriage,  and whether one could call those views racist).

[Edit:  to correct conference vote figures for McConnell's continued GOP Senate leadership]


----------



## Cmaier

lizkat said:


> It was a *procedural *vote to move a bill to debate on the floor.  The guy can count.   McConnell knew it needed 60 votes,  which implied needing 10 votes from Republicans.  He also knew there were 12 Yes votes that would actually come from Republicans.  So he knew the bill would indeed advance to the floor.
> 
> That margin of 2 votes favoring passage did allow him to vote No with the majority of the party he leads in the Senate.  *His own vote ends up looking like he led that group*. It mattered that he be in sync with the majority of the Rs on that bill, even though their sentiment did not prevail, and regardless of his own feeling about the bill's actual merits.
> 
> Surely he's able to compartmentalize.  He's a cynic but he's not stupid.  He certainly needed to be seen as "on the correct side" of a party conference that just yesterday chose him to be minority leader for the next term,  after an unusual challenge that he only won by a 37-12 vote.  HIs wife is a politician too and she gets that (regardless of his, her or their views on what exactly is an interracial marriage,  and whether one could call those views racist).




Nah, The dude is a stack of racist turtles in a trenchcoat.


----------



## lizkat

Cmaier said:


> Nah, The dude is a stack of racist turtles in a trenchcoat.




I'm laughing at the image, not at assertion of racism.  Wasn't there a meme about a stack of weasels in a trenchcoat?   Don't think it was aimed at a politician though.

Oh I remember, it was just a cartoon about deception. The stack of weasels in a raincoat was confessing he'd duped a giraffe that had fallen in love with him.

I don't think we can expect Mitch to confess anything anytime soon to anyone.  He is definitely a guy who plays cards close to vest.  He plays a long game when it comes to evening the score after someone has gone after him and missed the mark.   Trump should have a care.


----------



## Renzatic

Cmaier said:


> Nah, The dude is a stack of racist turtles in a trenchcoat.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Walker rants: “I don’t want to be a vampire, I want to be a werewolf”
					

"I've got to say, it's some rambling incoherence taken to Olympian levels," said MSNBC host Joe Scarborough.




					www.salon.com
				






I'll tell you what though.  If I had to go to a right-wing rally sign me up for Walker.  A+ on incoherent originality.


----------



## shadow puppet

Boebert is currently only 723 votes ahead.


----------



## Edd

shadow puppet said:


> Boebert is currently only 723 votes ahead.



Man, if she loses from a recount the conspiracy theories will be next level.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Lake is refusing to concede and says she’s collecting evidence of people not being able to vote.   Somebody on her team needs to pull her behind the shed and go “We make it more difficult to vote. It’s kind of our thing.”  Jesus, stay in your lane, idiot.  Or don't, become the champion of making it easier to vote.


----------



## ronntaylor

Frisch less than 600 votes behind with ~5 counties still remaining to add their final numbers. It's recount territory, but looks like Bozo will win reelection


----------



## shadow puppet

I literally am gobsmacked so many voted for Boebert.
Did they not eat enough vegetables growing up?


----------



## shadow puppet

For anyone still keeping track.


----------



## Herdfan

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Lake is refusing to concede and says she’s collecting evidence of people not being able to vote.   Somebody on her team needs to pull her behind the shed and go “We make it more difficult to vote. It’s kind of our thing.”  Jesus, stay in your lane, idiot.  Or don't, become the champion of making it easier to vote.



Not sure if there is actual evidence, but there were issues with approximately 25% of the machines in Maricopa County.  There is no way of knowing if any voters got tired of waiting and left or what.  But in a closely watched election, there is really no excuse for this.

Plenty of mainstream news articles on this.


----------



## Yoused

lizkat said:


> I'm laughing at the image, not at assertion of racism. Wasn't there a meme about a stack of weasels in a trenchcoat? Don't think it was aimed at a politician though.



The one I keep seeing is about Raphael. He is a multitude of rats inhabiting a human-shaped skin, and each rat is actually a swarm of cockroaches inhabiting a rat-shaped skin. Or something to that effect.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Herdfan said:


> Not sure if there is actual evidence, but there were issues with approximately 25% of the machines in Maricopa County.  There is no way of knowing if any voters got tired of waiting and left or what.  But in a closely watched election, there is really no excuse for this.
> 
> Plenty of mainstream news articles on this.




Funny.  When there's stories of hugely democratic areas having excessively long waits, the republicans try to pass laws so they can't be given food and water.  When their own voters have long lines, they start investigations and scream fraud.


----------



## Herdfan

MEJHarrison said:


> Funny.  When there's stories of hugely democratic areas having excessively long waits, *the republicans try to pass laws so they can't be given food and water.*  When their own voters have long lines, they start investigations and scream fraud.




No.  The Republicans passed laws that they can't be given food and water by candidates or national/state committees.  No one is preventing the local election boards from providing water or food.


----------



## Edd

Small towns up in New England have such a nice experience compared to the horror stories I hear.  I'm always in and out in under 15 minutes.


----------



## Renzatic

shadow puppet said:


> For anyone still keeping track.




We got the M states, folks! I knew we could do it!


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> No.  The Republicans passed laws that they can't be given food and water by candidates or national/state committees.  No one is preventing the local election boards from providing water or food.



False.

Here’s the exact text of the Georgia law:



> No person shall solicit votes in any manner or by any means or method, nor shall any person distribute or display any campaign material, nor shall any person give, offer to give, or participate in the giving of any money or gifts, including, but not limited to, food and drink, to an elector,




It says person, not candidate or committee. The only exception is poll workers providing self-service water from an unattended receptacle. But it doesn’t require poll workers to provide a water receptacle. So it should not be misconstrued as “there will be water there.” Food is not allowed to be given by poll workers.









						PolitiFact - The facts about Georgia’s ban on food, water giveaways to voters
					

On "Fox News Sunday," host Chris Wallace and a Republican strategist argued about the particulars of Georgia’s new law b




					www.politifact.com
				




At this point, I believe enough of a pattern has been established. Nothing posted by this account should be considered reliable. It has become a steady stream of misinformation.


----------



## Hrafn

SuperMatt said:


> False.
> 
> Here’s the exact text of the Georgia law:
> 
> 
> 
> It says person, not candidate or committee. The only exception is poll workers providing self-service water from an unattended receptacle. Food is not allowed to be given by poll workers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PolitiFact - The facts about Georgia’s ban on food, water giveaways to voters
> 
> 
> On "Fox News Sunday," host Chris Wallace and a Republican strategist argued about the particulars of Georgia’s new law b
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politifact.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, I believe enough of a pattern has been established. Nothing posted by this account should be considered reliable. It has become a steady stream of misinformation.



To be fair, he said Arizona not Georgia, but I believe the crux to be the same.


----------



## SuperMatt

Hrafn said:


> To be fair, he said Arizona not Georgia, but I believe the crux to be the same.



He didn’t mention a state in that post, and as far as I know, Georgia is the one state where Republicans passed a law banning giving food and water to people in line. Some other states have long-standing bans on candidates or campaigns giving away things like alcoholic beverages and other gifts. The GA law went much farther, preventing any person from giving water to somebody in line… with that small exception of election officials being allowed (not required) to put a water cooler nearby.

Snopes has more info about laws in other states.



			https://www.snopes.com/news/2021/04/06/food-water-ban-polling-places/


----------



## shadow puppet

Boebert currently only 551 ahead.  Does this mean a recount?  I'm not familiar with Colorado election laws.

ETA:  Nevermind my recount question.
Just found this.


----------



## Cmaier

shadow puppet said:


> Boebert currently only 551 ahead.  Does this mean a recount?  I'm not familiar with Colorado election laws.
> 
> ETA:  Nevermind my recount question.
> Just found this.




That would trigger a recount, yes.  It would be highly unlikely for the recount to change the outcome, though.


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> Boebert currently only 551 ahead.  Does this mean a recount?  I'm not familiar with Colorado election laws.




Yep. In Colorado, automatic recount is triggered if margin is within 0.5% of the _*winner's*_ vote total.

Or a recount can be requested.  A permissible requestor is defined at length in the law.  Requestor pays unless the outcome of the vote is affected after the recount, or if the recount produces results that would have triggered an automatic recount,

It's a statewide recount, i.e. not possible to request a partial one.





__





						Recount laws in Colorado
					

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics




					ballotpedia.org


----------



## shadow puppet

Cmaier said:


> That would trigger a recount, yes.  It would be highly unlikely for the recount to change the outcome, though.



Yeah, was just reading that part about the outcome.  Sigh.  I was so hoping to see Boebert go down.


----------



## ronntaylor

Looks like Bobo will win unless there is some major screwup found (double counting, under counts, etc). Frisch will concede graciously after the recount.


----------



## lizkat

ronntaylor said:


> Looks like Bobo will win unless there is some major screwup found (double counting, under counts, etc). Frisch will concede graciously after the recount.




Can wonder which way McCarthy was hoping that election would go.   She'll be one of his problem children.


----------



## shadow puppet

"Bobo nearly pee’d herself making this video. She might go on to rep CO-3, but her district damn her hates her."

Listening to her is like fingernails on a chalkboard.  Beyond annoying.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Herdfan said:


> No.  The Republicans passed laws that they can't be given food and water by candidates or national/state committees.  No one is preventing the local election boards from providing water or food.




I don't want to nitpick this thing to death.  Especially when the original post I quoted began with "Not sure if there is actual evidence..."

My main point is when it's largely democratic voters with long lines, they don't care, or actively try to make it more annoying to wait in line.  An attitude that doesn't seem to be present when it's republicans unable to vote.

It's just a general observation.  I'm "not sure if there is actual evidence" to back up my claims.


----------



## lizkat

ronntaylor said:


> Looks like Bobo will win unless there is some major screwup found (double counting, under counts, etc). *Frisch will concede graciously after the recount.*




Yeah and not least because fully half her district wanted Frisch or at least wanted "not her" -- and that district was rated R+7  --so it ain't that no mo'-- and there's a good start for Ds towards 2024.  She made a purple district out of the place.  Nice going.  Colorado turning bluer every time out the box.


----------



## ronntaylor

lizkat said:


> Yeah and not least because fully half her district wanted Frisch or at least wanted "not her" -- and that district was rated R+7  --so it ain't that no mo'-- and there's a good start for Ds towards 2024.  She made a purple district out of the place.  Nice going.  Colorado turning bluer every time out the box.



Yep!! He stays active and hovers around for another shot. He'll likely succeed as I can't see Bobo doing anything to sway votes her way in two years.


----------



## Cmaier

Frisch has conceded.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> False.




From the article* you* quoted:



> The bill also states that poll workers can make available "self-service water from an unattended receptacle to an elector waiting in line to vote." But nothing in the law requires poll workers to make water easily available to voters while they are waiting in line.




Aren't you the one who always accuses me of not reading past the first paragraph of links I post.


----------



## Herdfan

Cmaier said:


> Frisch has conceded.




Yeah, that kind of surprised me.  He is only 550 votes behind out of 327K.

Then he threw shade at DC Democrats about ignoring rural and working class voters.  Maybe he wouldn't have been too bad in Congress.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> From the article* you* quoted:
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you the one who always accuses me of not reading past the first paragraph of links I post.



No.

YOU didn’t read MY post, in which I already said that!



SuperMatt said:


> It says person, not candidate or committee. *The only exception is poll workers providing self-service water from an unattended receptacle. But it doesn’t require poll workers to provide a water receptacle.* So it should not be misconstrued as “there will be water there.” Food is not allowed to be given by poll workers.




Your statement is still false in many ways. I pointed them all out, in detail, and you come back with one-liners, accusing me of not reading them, when, IF YOU ACTUALLY READ MY POST, you can see not only did I read them, but I posted the same information myself!

Accusing me of the exact thing you JUST DID?

I will say it again, the pattern is clear. No attempt is being made at an honest discussion. Disinformation is posted, and when it’s debunked, the reply is false accusations, spewed out without even reading the fact check, or even the other poster’s brief summary of the fact check.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> No.
> 
> YOU didn’t read MY post, in which I already said that!
> 
> 
> 
> Your statement is still false in many ways. I pointed them all out, in detail, and you come back with one-liners, accusing me of not reading them, when, IF YOU ACTUALLY READ MY POST, you can see not only did I read them, but I posted the same information myself!
> 
> Accusing me of the exact thing you JUST DID?
> 
> I will say it again, the pattern is clear. No attempt is being made at an honest discussion. Disinformation is posted, and when it’s debunked, the reply is false accusations, spewed out without even reading the fact check, or even the other poster’s brief summary of the fact check.




Would you be OK with Republicans setting up free food trucks outside polling places?   I doubt it.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Would you be OK with Republicans setting up free food trucks outside polling places?   I doubt it.



This is yet more evidence that you didn’t read the articles that I linked.

The one from Snopes covers your specific question above and if you give it some actual thought, you could see that the Georgia law was unnecessary, since gifts from campaigns intended to sway voters were *already* illegal there, and also prohibited by federal law. So your imagined scenario, in which *Susie Soccer Mom* gets free corn dogs and a bud light from a political campaign bus, was already illegal. But you’d know that... if you actually read the article.

If ignorance is bliss, you must be having multiple orgasms right now.


----------



## lizkat

I love food trucks no matter who brings them around.  I should think food trucks without partisan campaign ads on them shouldn't be a problem...   in any state that actually supports civic activity of voting.

Among the spinoffs of the 2022 midterms, states that now have or have maintained a trifecta red governance --governor and both legislative chambers controlled by the GOP--  are likely emboldened anew to passing laws doubling down on Republican themes including limitations on abortion and easing up on gun laws. 

Georgia is one of those states.  Kemp was re-elected governor and both lawmaking houses stayed red.
 This per today's Morning Jolt, a newsletter of the Atlanta Journal Constitution:

"FIRED UP. With a second term for Gov. Brian Kemp and GOP control of the Legislature, emboldened gun rights advocates are pushing a new agenda to continue to loosen firearms restrictions in the state.​​The GA2A group, formerly known as GeorgiaCarry.org, said it *will now push to lower the minimum age for a state weapons license from 21 to 18, allow gun owners to carry weapons in churches without requiring churches and places of worship to “opt in,” and push to provide immunity from civil liability for property owners who have or allow firearms.*"​
These lobbyists don't get it that the reason for legislative attempts to reduce ubiquity of guns is because there are too many guns and ammo easily available to too many people with *poor judgment, poor control of emotions, lax oversight of stored weapons and ammo.*


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> This is yet more evidence that you didn’t read the articles that I linked.
> 
> The one from Snopes covers your specific question above and if you give it some actual thought, you could see that the Georgia law was unnecessary, since gifts from campaigns intended to sway voters were *already* illegal there, and also prohibited by federal law. So your imagined scenario, in which *Susie Soccer Mom* gets free corn dogs and a bud light from a political campaign bus, was already illegal. But you’d know that... if you actually read the article.
> 
> If ignorance is bliss, you must be having multiple orgasms right now.




Yet, after all these "voter suppression" changes, turnout was actually up.  Even set records.  Go figure.


----------



## shadow puppet

Cmaier said:


> Frisch has conceded.



Frisch stated that although an automatic recount will likely happen under state law, he encouraged supporters to save fundraising $$ for gas, groceries and other causes.

I think he has a strong future and should run again.  We need more Frisch's, not Boeberts.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Yet, after all these "voter suppression" changes, turnout was actually up.  Even set records.  Go figure.



The more Republicans try to suppress the vote, the more motivated the other side becomes. You’d think they would learn their lesson, but considering they went all-in on Trump-backed candidates in 2022 after the disaster of 2020, they aren’t very good at learning lessons. It seems to me ignorance and a refusal to learn is pretty common among Republicans.


----------



## ronntaylor

shadow puppet said:


> Frisch stated that although an automatic recount will likely happen under state law, he encouraged supporters to save fundraising $$ for gas, groceries and other causes.
> 
> I think he has a strong future and should run again.  We need more Grisch's, not Boeberts.



I thought he would wait till after the recount, but it's probably best to do so now as it's highly unlikely that he will overtake her absent some horrible mistakes.

This bodes well for him in two years since Bobo likely thinks winning is all that matters. With McCarthy herding conservative dicks across the finish line, she and MTG will outlive their welcome to the House.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> The more Republicans try to suppress the vote, the more motivated the other side becomes.




I might agree had Kemp not gotten 150K more votes in 2022 than in 2018.


----------



## Edd

ronntaylor said:


> I thought he would wait till after the recount, but it's probably best to do so now as it's highly unlikely that he will overtake her absent some horrible mistakes.
> 
> This bodes well for him in two years since Bobo likely thinks winning is all that matters. With McCarthy herding conservative dicks across the finish line, she and MTG will outlive their welcome to the House.



I wouldn't think so, but does conceding disqualify him from winning should a recount be in his favor? It can't be that way, or he wouldn't have conceded, I hope.


----------



## shadow puppet

Happy to see this happening.


----------



## Herdfan

Edd said:


> I wouldn't think so, but does conceding disqualify him from winning should a recount be in his favor? It can't be that way, or he wouldn't have conceded, I hope.




I think he did it so his supporters wouldn't be throwing money at his campaign.  He told them to keep it and spend it on food and utilities.  Good for him.


----------



## lizkat

SuperMatt said:


> The more Republicans try to suppress the vote, the more motivated the other side becomes. You’d think they would learn their lesson, but considering they went all-in on Trump-backed candidates in 2022 after the disaster of 2020, they aren’t very good at learning lessons. It seems to me ignorance and a refusal to learn is pretty common among Republicans.




The GOP does not help extend its base by fear mongering, especially when fostering the idea that its adherents are persecuted for this or that belief, or that the other main party is "evil."   Why not get back to outlining secular policy platforms that can attract more potential voters?  The whole thing of being "the party of NO" (and the party of circus-like House extravaganzas) is so shopworn at this point.

It will be interesting to see if the Republicans' dominant 2024 candidates move a little towards the center,  after the party's more extreme right wing had clearly ended up with a Trump-focused and cult-like following during the past six or seven years.   One hopes they see by now the great risks of a personality-centered party.


----------



## Deleted member 215

Can't believe we're already starting to hear the "at least DeSantis isn't Trump" rhetoric from Democrats. As if the Bush II nostalgia wasn't bad enough.

And I hope the Democrats stop trying to derail Trump's presidential run so that he'll run third party against DeSantis. Gotta think long term here.


----------



## Edd

Edd said:


> I wouldn't think so, but does conceding disqualify him from winning should a recount be in his favor? It can't be that way, or he wouldn't have conceded, I hope.



Nice.









						Yes, candidates can still win after conceding an election
					

Candidate concessions aren’t legally binding and don’t impact the official vote count.




					www.ksdk.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Pulitzer-winning investigative journalist checks out what happened with voters in Maricopa county, AZ.









						Kari Lake Claims Her Voters Were Disenfranchised. Her Voters Tell a Different Story.
					

Ms. Lake’s supporters say in testimonials that they had problems at Phoenix-area polling sites. But a review by The New York Times shows that most of them successfully cast their ballots.




					www.nytimes.com
				






> The New York Times reviewed 45 accounts offered by voters and 20 additional accounts from poll workers and observers in legal filings, public meeting testimony, submissions to the Arizona secretary of state’s office and on social media posts associated with Ms. Lake, her campaign and her allies, in some cases interviewing the voters to clarify details.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> Would you be OK with Republicans setting up free food trucks outside polling places?   I doubt it.




I truly wouldn’t care.

Again, no matter how strict, regimented or secure the elections are, it won’t matter if there are sore losers who lie afterwards. Do you think if every voting law and requirement republicans want passed we’re enacted, Trump would concede gracefully in 2024 if he lost? Do you think he’d concede primary losses, or just make up a different gaggle of lies explaining how he actually won?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Best summery I've heard of Republicans retaking the house and their plans - Y'all voted to feed Gizmo after midnight. 

And this should prevent anybody from voting for Hunter Biden again.


----------



## shadow puppet

I can only imagine how depressing this must be for Blue leaning types living in FL.


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> I can only imagine how depressing this must be for Blue leaning types living in FL.






Yeah where is that GIF with Bugs Bunny sawing Florida off the mainland.

The last blue voter departing should email a link for it to each of those guys.


----------



## rdrr

shadow puppet said:


> I can only imagine how depressing this must be for Blue leaning types living in FL.
> 
> View attachment 19599



Still don't know how Matt Gaetz is still able to serve, after what they put Al Franken through.


----------



## ronntaylor

shadow puppet said:


> I can only imagine how depressing this must be for Blue leaning types living in FL.



My part of Queens, NY votes more Republican than other areas. Still well below the support of Dems and that depresses me. Can't imagine being rep'd by GOP A-holes and being surrounded by a majority of gulping sycophants.


----------



## ronntaylor

lizkat said:


> The last blue voter departing should email a link for it to each of those guys.



Well, the Dems do fight and the GOP goes out of it's way to stymie their votes. Super gerrymandering and extreme voter suppression can only keep them down for so long. Demographics and death will eventually level the playing field.


----------



## lizkat

Looks like Ms. Boebert is a slow learner.









						Boebert gets new FEC warning letter
					

U.S. Rep. Lauren Boebert has received yet another warning letter from the Federal Election Commission saying her campaign has accepted numerous donations in excess of campaign finance limits.




					www.gjsentinel.com
				







> U.S. Rep. Lauren Boebert has received yet another warning letter from the Federal Election Commission saying her campaign has accepted numerous donations in excess of campaign finance limits.






> In a letter sent to her campaign this week, Boebert allegedly accepted $9,650 more than those limits allow from five donors between late September and mid-October.
> 
> By law, candidates cannot accept more than $2,900 from individual donors during an election cycle.






> This isn’t the first time Boebert’s campaign has been warned by the FEC for various campaign finance issues, primarily for accepting donations in excess of limits. In May, her campaign received a similar warning letter saying that her first quarter filing of 2022 showed her campaign accepted as much as $30,000 in contributions that exceed campaign finance limits in 20 separate donations.
> 
> An October 2021 letter from the FEC showed that the beginning balance of her report filed at the end of September 2021 showed contributions and expenses for the first three months of that year did not equal the ending balance of her 2020 year-end report, which had already been amended three times by then, according to her FEC filings.
> 
> Her closing cash-on-hand balance as of Dec. 31, 2020, was $286,794. Boebert’s beginning balance in her first quarter report for Jan. 1, 2021, to March 31, 2021 listed an opening balance of $356,794, a difference of $70,000.


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> Looks like Ms. Boebert is a slow learner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boebert gets new FEC warning letter
> 
> 
> U.S. Rep. Lauren Boebert has received yet another warning letter from the Federal Election Commission saying her campaign has accepted numerous donations in excess of campaign finance limits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gjsentinel.com



warnings don't mean shit to these idiots you have to make them suffer.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> warnings don't mean shit to these idiots you have to make them suffer.




Yeah there's always the school of hard knocks for those figuring rules are for other people.

Bobo has a couple months to make it right, and if she can't do that then there will likely be fines.  

All she has to do is humble herself enough to ask for legal advice from someone knowledgeable in campaign finance, then get a referral to an accountant who does that particular kind of work well enough to recommend how best to correct the situation.

Who knows how people make gone-wrong campaign contribution situations right...  sometimes they can loan their own campaign money if they've had to return donations, at least during the campaign season itself.

But it's possible she'll just ignore the letter:   after all,  it's "merely" a letter from a federal agency and she's not big on federal government to begin with.  She's one of the Rs who ran for Congress in order to try to help tear down the government of which she's now a part.


----------



## SuperMatt

lizkat said:


> Looks like Ms. Boebert is a slow learner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boebert gets new FEC warning letter
> 
> 
> U.S. Rep. Lauren Boebert has received yet another warning letter from the Federal Election Commission saying her campaign has accepted numerous donations in excess of campaign finance limits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gjsentinel.com



Imagine if they took away 1 vote for each illegal dollar accepted…


----------



## lizkat

SuperMatt said:


> Imagine if they took away 1 vote for each illegal dollar accepted…




That would certainly meet with approval from her opponent Mr. Frisch...


----------



## lizkat

Speaking of campaign finance...   now we know part of why the Rs had difficulty at the end in some close US Senate races in 2022. They were doing late ad buys with super PAC money, and the rules are different there (and the ads are more expensive than ads bought by the individual candidates for their campaigns).   Yeah:  rules matter out in the real world, especially when money is changing hands in the ad revenue business.   What a surprise.









						GOP's lackluster fundraising spurs post-election infighting
					

Republicans are engaged in a round of finger-pointing as both parties sift through the results of Democrats’ stronger-than-expected showing in the midterm elections




					www.post-gazette.com
				






> When it came to purchasing TV ad time, Democrats' fundraising advantage yielded considerable upside. Ad sellers are required, by law, to offer candidates the cheapest rate. That same advantage doesn't apply to super PACs, which Republican candidates relied on to close their fundraising gap — often at a premium.
> 
> In Las Vegas, for example, a candidate could buy a unit of TV advertising for $598, according to advertising figures provided to the AP. That same segment cost a super PAC $4,500. In North Carolina's Raleigh-Durham media market, a $342 spot cost a super PAC $1,270. And a $580 candidate segment in the Philadelphia area cost a super PAC nearly $2,000, the advertising figures show.




Man, are these GOP guys as uninformed as the voter base they like to keep dumbed down, or what?!

And the Dems have weighed in with a little snark after hearing about all that plus a bunch of other intra-party financial hassles the GOP campaign committees  laid on each other during the campaign:



> Faced with the prospect of solidifying their majority with another seat during a December runoff election in Georgia, Democrats were happy to offer unsolicited guidance to Republicans.
> 
> “My advice is to keep on doing what they are doing,” said Michigan Sen. Gary Peters, who led Senate Democrats' campaign arm this year.


----------



## Eric

Everyone who kissed Trump's ring is now paying the price. Hope it was worth it.









						‘Too Toxic’: Dr. Oz’s Ex-TV Producers Blowing Him Off As He Tries To Relaunch TV Career Following Failed Senate Run
					

Sources say the one-time daytime talk show host is desperate to be back on air.




					radaronline.com
				



‘Too Toxic’: Dr. Oz’s Ex-TV Producers Blowing Him Off As He Tries To Relaunch TV Career Following Failed Senate Run​








						Ex-Surgeon General Jerome Adams says he couldn’t find job after leaving Trump White House
					

“The Trump hangover is still impacting me in significant ways.” Adams said.




					nypost.com
				



Ex-Surgeon General Jerome Adams says he couldn’t find job after leaving Trump White House​


----------



## Citysnaps

Eric said:


> Everyone who kissed Trump's ring is now paying the price. Hope it was worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Too Toxic’: Dr. Oz’s Ex-TV Producers Blowing Him Off As He Tries To Relaunch TV Career Following Failed Senate Run
> 
> 
> Sources say the one-time daytime talk show host is desperate to be back on air.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> radaronline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Too Toxic’: Dr. Oz’s Ex-TV Producers Blowing Him Off As He Tries To Relaunch TV Career Following Failed Senate Run​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ex-Surgeon General Jerome Adams says he couldn’t find job after leaving Trump White House
> 
> 
> “The Trump hangover is still impacting me in significant ways.” Adams said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ex-Surgeon General Jerome Adams says he couldn’t find job after leaving Trump White House​




Consequences.

Happy they still work.


----------



## Eric

Citysnaps said:


> Consequences.
> 
> Happy they still work.



Republicans will blame the companies not hiring them for not allowing free speech.


----------



## Citysnaps

Eric said:


> *Republicans will blame the companies* not hiring them for not allowing free speech.




That's cool. And adults in the room will cheer and respect those companies.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> Republicans will blame the companies not hiring them for not allowing free speech.





Citysnaps said:


> That's cool. And adults in the room will cheer and respect those companies.




That's fine.

But will you be equally happy if/when it goes the other way?


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> That's fine.
> 
> But will you be equally happy if/when it goes the other way?



I personally have no dog in that fight. If I'm being honest I would never condone not hiring someone just because they worked or stumped for Trump, I've even hired people knowing they did. As long as people can separate work from politics I'm all good, not a single person I worked with new mine one way or the other.

At the same time if one is really outspoken about it the company may see that as a risk, on either side of the aisle, so you get why they might be hesitant.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> That's fine.
> 
> But will you be equally happy if/when it goes the other way?




Sure. If a TV producer (and their ad brands who pay the TV network's bills, who feel their brands would be sullied and not supported by their TV-watching customers) feels a celebrity who engages in a bunch of social toxicity would be harmful to their success, absolutely.

That's their right.   Repub, Dem, Martian, etc. Makes no difference to me (not being a member of any political party).


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> That's fine.
> 
> But will you be equally happy if/when it goes the other way?




Yeah anyway the Dems should not get too complacent.   They are not the only ones who noticed there was no red wave in 2022, but specifically there was no red wave for *extremist* GOP candidates.

So... some Republicans who ran to the left of far righties in the 2022 GOP primaries for US Senate --and who lost those primary races very narrowly to guys like Oz--   are planning to go around again, especially if Trump's appeal continues to fade and if the state where they ran in 2022 has its other Senate seat up for defense in 2024.

The Rs may see the next national elections as particularly advantageous for them if Biden runs again,  because the Dems do also have to defend 23 of 33 Senate seats up for re-election in 2024.  So the Rs figure that the DNC and DSCC will have their work cut out for them trying to hold a narrow Senate margin and keep the WH when a presumably younger candidate is running on the GOP top of ticket.

As it happens, the Trump-backed Oz won his prirmary in 2022 in Pennsylvania by only 951 votes.   The Republican who lost to Oz is David McCormick,  a former hedge fund CEO who may run against Democrat Bob Casey for Pennsylvania's other US Senate seat.    Casey has not said whether he will stand for re-election.









						Oz Senate defeat opens door to ex-hedge fund CEO McCormick for another run
					

When politicians, business and civic leaders descend on New York City’s Waldorf Astoria on Friday for the annual Pennsylvania Society gathering,...




					www.post-gazette.com


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> That's fine.
> 
> But will you be equally happy if/when it goes the other way?



Can you clarify what you’re talking about? Perhaps give an example? 

Before I respond, I don’t want to make any incorrect assumptions about what you mean here.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Can you clarify what you’re talking about? Perhaps give an example?
> 
> Before I respond, I don’t want to make any incorrect assumptions about what you mean here.




If someone is Ok if a company doesn't want to hire someone that worked in the Trump/(GOP) administration simply because they worked there, would that person also be fine if a company didn't want to hire someone simply because they worked in the Biden/(Dem) administration.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> If someone is Ok if a company doesn't want to hire someone that worked in the Trump/(GOP) administration simply because they worked there, would that person also be fine if a company didn't want to hire someone simply because they worked in the Biden/(Dem) administration.



Thanks for clarifying.

I don’t believe this to be an apples-to-apples comparison. People are not being excluded for working with the Republican Party. They are being excluded for working with Trump. 

If a Democratic President incited a mob to attack the Capitol, I would be MORE than ok with that person’s enablers being shunned.

If the Republicans double down on their support of Trump even after all his criminal behavior and damage to the nation he’s caused, then they deserve any “cancelling” they get.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Herdfan said:


> If someone is Ok if a company doesn't want to hire someone that worked in the Trump/(GOP) administration simply because they worked there, would that person also be fine if a company didn't want to hire someone simply because they worked in the Biden/(Dem) administration.



sure and I am sure it happens all the time. but since the trump admininstration was so full of broken laws and rules and lies and stupidity it brings into question how competent that person is.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> If someone is Ok if a company doesn't want to hire someone that worked in the Trump/(GOP) administration simply because they worked there, would that person also be fine if a company didn't want to hire someone simply because they worked in the Biden/(Dem) administration.



I don't think it's so much that they worked for him, it's likely what they've said that was politically charged in public. That's a huge risk for any company in today's litigious society. 

I've said it before but as a company, anything someone says publicly that is political will literally alienate 50% of your audience, no matter what side you are on as the country is split down the middle. Few companies want to, nor should, take a side.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Herdfan said:


> If someone is Ok if a company doesn't want to hire someone that worked in the Trump/(GOP) administration simply because they worked there, would that person also be fine if a company didn't want to hire someone simply because they worked in the Biden/(Dem) administration.




For a private company, I think they should be allowed to hire who they want for whatever reasons they wants (assuming they're following all other labor laws).  If company A doesn't want to hire person B because of their association with thing C, it's none of my business.  If thing C happens to be morally repugnant, then I'd say person B is suffering from making poor life choices in their past.  

To put it more in context, if I was a fan of arson, and felt that all life's problems can be solved with a little arson, and even started groups to publicly promote arson, I shouldn't be surprised if I can't find an employer wanting to offer me a position.  If a person chooses to associate with a madman, they still have their right to bitch about how unemployable they are, but I still have my right to point and laugh.

I completely removed the political angle because it doesn't really matter to me.  I know you bring these fun hypotheticals up all the time.  Generally speaking, an asshole is an asshole and my thoughts on that aren't going to change based on their political party.  So in this scenario, it's not part of the equation.


----------



## Herdfan

MEJHarrison said:


> I know you bring these fun hypotheticals up all the time.




Except it isn't.  Adams can't find a job because he worked for Trump and it seems some are OK with that.  I was just wondering if it was fine if it went the other way.

I really don't care.  If you take a job or a position that is in the public spotlight, then you made a choice and get what you get.


----------



## ronntaylor

Eric said:


> Everyone who kissed Trump's ring is now paying the price. Hope it was worth it.



They kissed a bucket of  & no one wants to be around them.

For Oz, it's more about people don't want to work with him anymore. He destroyed a brand that he abruptly abandoned. Given all the negativity it already had, associating with a narcissistic, racist asshole isn't a winning combination.

Fox and NewMax are Mango munchers, so the fact that even they don't want to play with him tells you something.

Jenga-headed Jerome was just a horrible person under Mango. He should expect no credible, decent job after his disastrous stint with the narcissistic, racist asshole. Yet he received two well paid, more than decent jobs/positions after getting the boot from Pres. Biden. He's a lying, whining punk. He was another lapdog for Mango. Where are all the Mango munchers that idolize him with their job offers for him? I only feel sorry for Mrs. Adams due to her cancer fight. I hope her husband's pieces of gold aren't Fool's Gold.


----------



## MEJHarrison

Herdfan said:


> Except it isn't.  Adams can't find a job because he worked for Trump and it seems some are OK with that.  I was just wondering if it was fine if it went the other way.
> 
> I really don't care.  If you take a job or a position that is in the public spotlight, then you made a choice and get what you get.




Just to be clear, I'd have absolutely no problem if someone from the current admin had issues finding a job afterwards because of their actions now.

If I apply to a place and get turned down, I suck it up and move on.  I don't find excuses for why I didn't get the job and raise a big stink about it.  Nor do I generally care for the types who do, unless they have a legitimate complaint of course.

I personally don't think an unemployed person who can't find a job is news worthy of reporting on.  But that's another topic.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Herdfan said:


> If someone is Ok if a company doesn't want to hire someone that worked in the Trump/(GOP) administration simply because they worked there, would that person also be fine if a company didn't want to hire someone simply because they worked in the Biden/(Dem) administration.



It would depend what the person did for Trump. If he were, for instance, some mid-level safety administrator in the FAA, then I wouldn't hold his working for the Trump administration against him. If he were someone who had a more visible role and was constantly defending every outrageous/illegal thing Trump did, then I am ok with a company not hiring him just for that reason. Who would want to hire someone who is dishonest?

As for your analogy with the Biden administration, it's hard to come up with a comparable situation as Biden didn't incite a riot to block the peaceful transfer of power or steal highly classified documents. If a company wouldn't hire a person because he, for instance, backed Biden's policy of forgiving student loans, then I would have a problem with that but it would be within the company's right to do so, provided no employment laws were being broken.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Except it isn't.  Adams can't find a job because he worked for Trump and it seems some are OK with that.  I was just wondering if it was fine if it went the other way.



It’s not a both-sides issue. It’s a Trump issue. He said and did a lot of highly offensive (and allegedly criminal) things. People that went to work for him and participated in such activities KNEW what he said during his campaign, and were willing to work for him anyway. So they get what they get now.

But let’s get realistic for a minute. I honestly don’t think they will be blacklisted for long. Both Bushes brought in lots of former Nixon officials to work in the highest levels of government. The guy who literally compiled a list of Jewish people working for the Bureau of Labor Statistics for Nixon (then helped demote some of them) continued to be a big-time player in business and GOP politics for decades afterwards.

Give it a few years and the GOP will gladly invite back any former Trump officials.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> It’s not a both-sides issue. It’s a Trump issue. He said and did a lot of highly offensive (and allegedly criminal) things. People that went to work for him and participated in such activities KNEW what he said during his campaign, and were willing to work for him anyway. So they get what they get now.




Then why didn't Fauci resign?  He worked for Trump for 4 years, 2 years longer than he will work for Biden, yet no one seems to hold it against him.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Herdfan said:


> Then why didn't Fauci resign?  He worked for Trump for 4 years, 2 years longer than he will work for Biden, yet no one seems to hold it against him.



he was there before trump. thank god he did not or we would have been really bad off.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Then why didn't Fauci resign?  He worked for Trump for 4 years, 2 years longer than he will work for Biden, yet no one seems to hold it against him.




Fauci wasn't a yes-man for Trump.  In fact Trump occasionally dissed him in public when the guy was standing in the same room...


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> Then why didn't Fauci resign? He worked for Trump for 4 years, 2 years longer than he will work for Biden, yet no one seems to hold it against him.




Fauci worked in service for the American public, as Chief Medical Advisor under all presidents since Ronald Reagan. He was also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom under George W. Bush. He's not political. And the country was very lucky to have him in that role.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Then why didn't Fauci resign?  He worked for Trump for 4 years, 2 years longer than he will work for Biden, yet no one seems to hold it against him.





fooferdoggie said:


> he was there before trump. thank god he did not or we would have been really bad off.



The director of NIAID is not a political appointee. Fauci turned down the higher position of NIH director on multiple occasions in the past, presumably to avoid being a political appointee. He was not part of the Trump administration, but rather a non-partisan government employee.

With Fauci retiring, the NIH has a listing online for qualified applicants to apply for his job…









						Director, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID)
					

National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) POC: Lynnita Spears (301-402-4077) or (SeniorRe@od.nih.gov) Closes: January 17, 2023




					www.niaid.nih.gov
				




A big part of the reason Trump wanted to change the rules on who is or isn’t a political appointee (see also: Schedule F) is because he hates Fauci but couldn’t fire him.


----------



## Citysnaps

Herdfan said:


> He worked for Trump for 4 years, 2 years longer than he will work for Biden, yet no one seems to hold it against him.




Are you suggesting that Fauci, at 81 years old and wanting to retire, working two years less for Biden than trump, is something to be held against Biden (or Fauci)?


----------



## ronntaylor

Herdfan said:


> Then why didn't Fauci resign?  He worked for Trump for 4 years, 2 years longer than he will work for Biden, yet no one seems to hold it against him.



You're a legless man calling for an ass kicking contest: you ain't gonna win dude!!


----------



## Herdfan

fooferdoggie said:


> he was there before trump. thank god he did not or we would have been really bad off.





lizkat said:


> Fauci wasn't a yes-man for Trump.  In fact Trump occasionally dissed him in public when the guy was standing in the same room...





Citysnaps said:


> Fauci worked in service for the American public, as Chief Medical Advisor under all presidents since Ronald Reagan. He was also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom under George W. Bush. He's not political. And the country was very lucky to have him in that role.




Which kind of makes my point.  Just because they worked in the administration doesn't mean they are a Trump sycophant.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Herdfan said:


> Which kind of makes my point.  Just because they worked in the administration doesn't mean they are a Trump sycophant.



Ok, so let's focus our disgust on those who worked in his administration and were a sycophant.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Which kind of makes my point.  Just because they worked in the administration doesn't mean they are a Trump sycophant.



Fauci didn’t work in the Trump administration.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Herdfan said:


> Then why didn't Fauci resign?  He worked for Trump for 4 years, 2 years longer than he will work for Biden, yet no one seems to hold it against him.




This is a disingenuous argument at best. Comparing rank and file government workers with people who were onboarded specifically to work for Trump - fully aware of who he is - is not even close to the same.


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> This is a disingenuous argument at best. Comparing rank and file government workers with people who were onboarded specifically to work for Trump - fully aware of who he is - is not even close to the same.




Starting to think I'd file this topic with "slow news day" for the media.   You can find stories going back to early days of the Trump administration where young West Wing staffers were whining about not being able to find dates in Washington DC "because they worked for Trump."   But if you look at the proof they were providing to the reporters,  it was often just comments they received off internet dating apps, so....


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Except it isn't. Adams can't find a job because he worked for Trump and it seems some are OK with that. I was just wondering if it was fine if it went the other way.



It’s not just that he worked for TFG. It’s that in doing so, he demonstrated on a national stage that he was not competent.


----------



## Alli

Herdfan said:


> Which kind of makes my point. Just because they worked in the administration doesn't mean they are a Trump sycophant.



I think this makes your point “all individuals must be judged on their own merit.”


----------



## Yoused

15-year-old Warnock campaigner shot through door by homeowner, deputies say
					

Deputies said it is unclear if the shooting was politically motivated or not.




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## Eric

Yoused said:


> 15-year-old Warnock campaigner shot through door by homeowner, deputies say
> 
> 
> Deputies said it is unclear if the shooting was politically motivated or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com



Yeah that's crazy man, it's a dangerous time to be out there going door to door.


----------



## Eric

Protect your Christian values.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/clevercomebacks/comments/zd6s1v


----------



## GermanSuplex

I suspect and really hope Warnock wins this. You cannot tell me this won’t be one of the hardest-earned senate terms in recent memory.

I can’t even believe in a sane world it would be close, but a sane world we are not.

That will give democrats a few years to really focus on continuing to drive democrat turnout in Georgia.

Would be nice to see a Republican governor work well with democrat senators and prove bipartisanship and moderate minds can get things done, but I’m not holding my breath.

Kemp appears to have presidential aspirations. I don’t like his policies any more than anyone other democrat, but he at least didn’t go full Trumpian and is less ridiculous than DeSantis. He clearly had independents and democrats vote for him.

I don’t like him, but he’s proof to other conservatives you can hold their policies and refuse to join the circus and still win. He won many of the voters who voted for Warnock and it wasn’t really that close. Maybe I’m just being optimistic but I do miss the days when I really only disliked a lot of republicans because of their policy and not their antics and gimmicks like the Trump cult.

*May as well call it for Warnock already


----------



## shadow puppet

The current vote count for the Georgia run-off.  I will never understand how Walker has this many votes.


----------



## Pumbaa

shadow puppet said:


> The current vote count for the Georgia run-off.  I will never understand how Walker has this many votes.



…and he’ll get a lot more before this is over. Scary!


----------



## Roller

If Warnock wins - and that’s not a given, sadly - what are the chances Walker will concede? Or will he just go all in with the big lie?


----------



## Eric

Roller said:


> If Warnock wins - and that’s not a given, sadly - what are the chances Walker will concede? Or will he just go all in with the big lie?



Concede? I'll be surprised if he even comprehends it, that dude is as dumb as a box of hammers. However, he'll be a good stooge for Republicans and their bidding, it's all they care about anyway.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Pretty sure Warnock is winning it.

That said, I honestly don’t think anyone will care if Walker concedes or not. Won’t help them at all, especially given that Walker has allowed himself to be rightly ridiculed.

I reckon many who will vote for him will not necessarily care enough to defend him.


----------



## lizkat

Here's a link for NPR's tally.  Despite the headline below,  it's about the Georgia runoff for US Senate,  and they are using the Associated Press as source of data.









						2022 Election Results Live
					

View interactive maps and live results for the 2022 U.S. election.




					apps.npr.org


----------



## lizkat

Sounds like things went pretty smoothly overall, with good turnout.  Here is an update from Fulton County, the largest county in metro Atlanta area.









						Georgia Senate runoff: Election Day live updates from the AJC
					

Live updating coverage of the Georgia Senate runoff Dec. 6, including voter turnout and reports from voters and election officials.




					www.ajc.com
				







> Fulton County Interim Elections Director Nadine Williams said the largest metro Atlanta county experienced a “great day” with what she believes was “well over 70,000 voters today.”
> 
> ”Voting was successful with almost no wait times,” Williams said.
> 
> One precinct, Scott Elementary School, closed for about 20 minutes earlier in the day “due to a police incident in the area,” said spokesperson Regina Waller. The county extended voting at that location until 7:20 p.m.
> 
> Williams said the county will soon upload more than 184,000 advanced voting ballots, followed by over 14,000 absentee ballots. The goal, she said, is to be done with all uploads before midnight.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Crazy that it’s even close, but I think sanity will prevail.

I don’t expect conservatives will do much reflecting, they’ll just begin flexing their muscle in the house, but they won’t actually accomplish anything because they have a rather large circus caucus and the senate will be a road block. But that will make them more likely to ramp up the circus act.


----------



## shadow puppet

This is indeed scary.


----------



## GermanSuplex

shadow puppet said:


> This is indeed scary.
> 
> View attachment 19872




Well. when you figure Georgia was a pretty red state until just recently, there’s two black guys in a senate race and sanity will end up prevailing, that’s still a good sign.


----------



## Eric

shadow puppet said:


> This is indeed scary.
> 
> View attachment 19872



Yeah, I would expect it to be even closer than that in the end.


----------



## Roller

Eric said:


> Yeah, I would expect it to be even closer than that in the end.



The race keeps tightening as more results come in. I think they’ll end up less than 1 point apart. Frightening that there’s so much polarization that so many people are voting for someone they know is an idiot with a tainted history.


----------



## shadow puppet

Roller said:


> The race keeps tightening as more results come in. I think they’ll end up less than 1 point apart. Frightening that there’s so much polarization that so many people are voting for someone they know is an idiot with a tainted history.



This is what I can't get over.  WTH is wrong with those voting for Walker?  I mean why?  The mind boggles.


----------



## shadow puppet

Walker is now in the lead with 67% in.  I feel sick.


----------



## Citysnaps

Shit.


----------



## lizkat

Fulton county will take awhile to come in (they said they hoped by midnight)  and it's always bluer than blue.  Same with some other metro Atlanta counties.

More from the Atlanta Journal Constitution's rolling updates:



> The runoff between the rivals was too close to call as key counties had yet to report final tallies. Republicans were anxiously waiting vote totals in the exurbs of Cherokee and Forsyth, where Walker must run up the score to keep a path to victory.
> 
> Meanwhile, Democrats were glued to tallies in Clayton, DeKalb and Fulton counties – the populous Democratic strongholds where Warnock is expected to make huge gains.
> 
> It could be a while, as the metro Atlanta counties are notoriously slow at reporting vote totals. But Fulton officials said they expected to have the final numbers in before midnight.


----------



## Roller

lizkat said:


> Fulton county will take awhile to come in (they said they hoped by midnight)  and it's always bluer than blue.  Same with some other metro Atlanta counties.
> 
> More from the Atlanta Journal Constitution's rolling updates:



It’ll be something if Warnock wins by 11,779 votes.


----------



## lizkat

The Washington Post notes that Warnock is outperforming his own 2021 vote...   and the Post's model predicts Warnock will prevail tonight. 

With 76.2% of the vote in, Warnock is ahead 50.4% to 49.6%  --   and those metro county uploads yet to occur.




			https://www.washingtonpost.com/election-results/2022/georgia-senate-runoff/


----------



## shadow puppet

lizkat said:


> ...   and the Post's model predicts Warnock will prevail tonight.



I hope so.  B/C I'm also reading that Walker is performing far better in Northern GA than last month.


----------



## shadow puppet

I've heard this as well from OTA news.


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> I hope so.  B/C I'm also reading that Walker is performing far better in Northern GA than last month.




The wonderful Marjorie Taylor Greene lives up there somewhere... in the 14th CD, in the northwest corner of Georgia.    She campaigned for Walker and donated money and was even cited for excessive campaign contributions to Walker by Georgia's state Democratic Party officials,  but the FEC dismissed it 5-0 with 1 not voting,  decidingi that it was a low priority item because "it wasn't a lot of money."   The accusation was that past the limit of $2000 for a straight-up to-candidate contribution, she had also contributed $3k worth of Facebook ads which amounted to in-kind contributions and so took her total contribution over the limit.   But she was cleared so Walker got $5k worth of help from her. 









						Marjorie Taylor Greene's campaign cleared of wrongdoing after Georgia Democrats accused her of giving too much money to Herschel Walker's campaign
					

The Georgia Democratic Party said Greene's campaign illegally boosted Herschel Walker's Senate campaign, but the Federal Election Commission unanimously disagreed.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## lizkat

Well it's still looking hopeful...   83% in and Warnock a bit ahead.  (WaPo)


----------



## fooferdoggie

lizkat said:


> The wonderful Marjorie Taylor Greene lives up there somewhere... in the 14th CD, in the northwest corner of Georgia.    She campaigned for Walker and donated money and was even cited for excessive campaign contributions to Walker by Georgia's state Democratic Party officials,  but the FEC dismissed it 5-0 with 1 not voting,  decidingi that it was a low priority item because "it wasn't a lot of money."   The accusation was that past the limit of $2000 for a straight-up to-candidate contribution, she had also contributed $3k worth of Facebook ads which amounted to in-kind contributions and so took her total contribution over the limit.   But she was cleared so Walker got $5k worth of help from her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marjorie Taylor Greene's campaign cleared of wrongdoing after Georgia Democrats accused her of giving too much money to Herschel Walker's campaign
> 
> 
> The Georgia Democratic Party said Greene's campaign illegally boosted Herschel Walker's Senate campaign, but the Federal Election Commission unanimously disagreed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com



hopefully she helped him like she as helped her cause.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Boom.









						Raphael Warnock Has Defeated Herschel Walker In The Georgia Runoff, Giving Democrats 51 Seats In The Senate — BuzzFeed News
					

The Senate race in Georgia went to a run-off after neither candidate won more than 50% of the vote in the November midterm election.




					apple.news


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> Boom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raphael Warnock Has Defeated Herschel Walker In The Georgia Runoff, Giving Democrats 51 Seats In The Senate — BuzzFeed News
> 
> 
> The Senate race in Georgia went to a run-off after neither candidate won more than 50% of the vote in the November midterm election.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news




Yeah if you scroll around some of the red counties in the NPR map, you can see where Walker didn't get up into the 70-80% mark he needed consistently enough.  There are quite a few where he was only in the high 50s mid 60s.     And he needs way more than that of those rural votes to counteract Warnock getting 80% or better of the urban and suburban component -- a lot of which isn't even in yet.

There was some Republican county chair in a rural area saying she felt Walker should  have been going around to the churches like Warnock did.   Maybe Walker was counting on his past football cred to carry him without bothering with that level of door to door.   It was not a good sign either that he was often polling below Brian Kemp (governor's race) in the November elections in some of those rural counties.


----------



## Eric

CNN just showed Walker taking the lead. Of course there are a lot of outstanding precincts that are not reporting in blue counties.


----------



## shadow puppet

Eric said:


> CNN just showed Walker taking the lead. Of course there are a lot of outstanding precincts that are not reporting in blue counties.



This is with an estimated 91% of the vote in.  Please, please, please change.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Almost every time Walker increased his percentage over the general election, so did Warnock, and usually by a greater percentage. And Warnock has outperformed his general election percentage in many other areas. Still incredibly close for a dolt like Walker. This is the third Trump senate endorsement to lose in Georgia.



shadow puppet said:


> This is with an estimated 91% of the vote in.  Please, please, please change.




It’s a matter of counting I think. The numbers don’t look like they’re there for Walker.


----------



## lizkat

shadow puppet said:


> This is with an estimated 91% of the vote in.  Please, please, please change.




Fulton and Cobb counties are not even 80% in and they're going for Warnock with plenty votes left to count yet.


----------



## Eric

lizkat said:


> Fulton and Cobb counties are not even 80% in and they're going for Warnock with plenty votes left to count yet.




And most Republican counties are at 99%, we'll probably see more outlets making the call within the hour.


----------



## GermanSuplex

NBC calls it for Warnock.









						Warnock leads in Georgia Senate runoff; too close to call
					

Democratic Sen. Raphael Warnock is hoping to fend off a challenge from Republican Herschel Walker.




					www.nbcnews.com
				












						Raphael Warnock defeats Herschel Walker in Georgia Senate race — MSNBC
					

The Democratic senator won his re-election bid against Walker, the scandal-plagued, Trump-backed political neophyte.




					apple.news


----------



## Eric

And now CNN.


----------



## lizkat

Hell even McConnell's probably pouring a bourbon, even if he knows Schumer is too.


----------



## shadow puppet

Thank the Goddess.
I can breathe again.


----------



## GermanSuplex

lizkat said:


> Hell even McConnell's probably pouring a bourbon, even if he knows Schumer is too.




The old turtle really helped democrats when he told the truth about “candidate quality”.

*Fox has called it for Warnock too.


----------



## lizkat

Now the trick is to keep Sinema and Manchin in the fold...


----------



## Eric

GermanSuplex said:


> The old turtle really helped democrats when he told the truth about “candidate quality”.
> 
> **Fox has called it for Warnock too.*




Republicans react


----------



## lizkat

Dems turned out the vote big time...   and FiveThirtyEight shows the upside for Ds tonight over how Warnock did in the general election.   It's up even for Ds in counties that Walker is winning.

Scroll down to the post at 10:26pm by Nathaniel Rakich.









						Georgia Senate Runoff: Live Election Results And Updates
					

Live election results and coverage of the Georgia Senate runoff on Dec. 6, 2022 between Democratic Sen. Raphael Warnock and Republican Herschel Walker.




					fivethirtyeight.com


----------



## Eric

Walker is about to speak, you have to think Trump called and said something like "Go out there and say it was stolen!!!!!" but let's hope for a concession.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> Walker is about to speak, you have to think Trump called and said something like "Go out there and say it was stolen!!!!!" but let's hope for a concession.



I thought trump dumped his ass? maybe another vampire story?


----------



## Eric

fooferdoggie said:


> I thought trump dumped his ass? maybe another vampire story?



He was hand picked by Trump, who is directly responsible for this loss. Had Republicans actually chosen a more viable candidate they likely would've won. Until the party decides as a whole to distance themselves and denounce him they're just going to keep losing ground they could handily win otherwise. He's the gift that keeps on giving for Democrats.


----------



## GermanSuplex

Eric said:


> He was hand picked by Trump, who is directly responsible for this loss. Had Republicans actually chosen a more viable candidate they likely would've won. Until the party decides as a whole to distance themselves and denounce him they're just going to keep losing ground they could handily win otherwise. He's the gift that keeps on giving for Democrats.




Yeah, he said nice things about Trump and Trump kinda remembered him and so that made him qualified to represent a state he didn’t live in.


----------



## lizkat

Not even that close any more...  with >95% of the vote in.


----------



## Yoused

Everybody who is not Herschel Walker's wife is very happy to not be Herschel Walker's wife tonight.


----------



## lizkat

Yoused said:


> Everybody who is not Herschel Walker's wife is very happy to not be Herschel Walker's wife tonight.




Yeah.  Warnock's ahead by like 92k votes and still counting now.  Did the Rs learn anything from 2022?  They still don't throw Trump overboard?  Did they all fail arithmetic?  

It's all because of Trump-touted MAGA candidates that the Senate isn't 53-47 Republican starting next month,  and all because of Trump-touted MAGA candidates that Kevin McCarthy will be managing a win margin in that chamber that he can count on one hand,  if he can even keep all the Republican ducks in a row on any vote.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

It’s a bad week to be ketchup in Mar-a-logo.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Eric said:


> He was hand picked by Trump, who is directly responsible for this loss. Had Republicans actually chosen a more viable candidate they likely would've won. Until the party decides as a whole to distance themselves and denounce him they're just going to keep losing ground they could handily win otherwise. He's the gift that keeps on giving for Democrats.



But the GOP's problem is that if they denounce Trump he might run himself and other local candidates on a third party and possibly hurt them even more.


----------



## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> It’s a bad week to be ketchup in Mar-a-logo.




It's a worse week to be an actual Republican Party leader, since nominal leader Trump could not care less what happens to the GOP as a result of his own actions.   And it's only Wednesday.

The Atlanta Journal Constitution confirms that support for Senator Warnock rose in the runoff election versus the vote in November.



> Warnock gained ground against Republican Herschel Walker in almost every county since the first election four weeks ago, according to preliminary results.
> 
> *Warnock’s support grew in 148 of Georgia’s 159 counties, including both rural Republican-leaning areas and Democratic bastions in metro areas*.












						What changed in US Senate runoff? Small gains for Warnock across Georgia
					

The runoff for U.S. Senate mostly mirrored the general election, with a key difference: Democratic U.S. Sen. Raphael Warnock won a bit more of the vote in almost every county.




					www.ajc.com
				




Turnout almost always falls in runoff elections, so get-out-the-vote efforts really mattter, and every vote does count.   Every lawsuit against voter suppression counts too.  As Warnock reminded people last night,  Georgia had to be taken to court to allow the early voting calendar to proceed as originally planned, and so to include the Saturday before the runoff election.

Even so, total early voting days had been made fewer by changes to state law, as had the total campaign period.  Prior law allowed a minimum of 16 days of early voting, now the minimum is 5 days and until the state was taken to court,  it also tried to eliminate the Saturday after Thanksgiving because of language in a different law.   The new law also says a runoff must be held not later than 28 days after a general election.  The state left unchanged a different law that says voters must be registered 30 days prior to any election, so campaigns for a runoff must focus on turnout of the existing electorate rather than a registration drive.

Bottom line the turnout effort on both sides in the 2022 runoff in Georgia was pretty good,  since total votes cast were only around half a million fewer than those cast in the general election.   On that earlier date the ballot had also included a governorship race, contests for all of Georgia's seats in the US House, several state commissioners and the state's attorney general.

Edit:   current totals for the runoff show Warnock with about 97k margin.  He won by 36k in November.


----------



## fooferdoggie

Eric said:


> He was hand picked by Trump, who is directly responsible for this loss. Had Republicans actually chosen a more viable candidate they likely would've won. Until the party decides as a whole to distance themselves and denounce him they're just going to keep losing ground they could handily win otherwise. He's the gift that keeps on giving for Democrats.



yes but then when the runoff was announced trump dropped his support. not that it really mattered but still.


----------



## Alli

I will never understand how this election was as close as it was. How did almost half the state vote for Walker?


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> I will never understand how this election was as close as it was. How did almost half the state vote for Walker?



It's hard to understand. It was also Warnock's fifth election overall for the state, that man has endured to say the least and the whole runoff thing seems so pointless and costly. Most elections are decided within a point or two as it is, maybe they should focus on getting their numbers right the first time.


----------



## lizkat

Eric said:


> It's hard to understand. It was also Warnock's fifth election overall for the state, that man has endured to say the least and the whole runoff thing seems so pointless and costly. Most elections are decided within a point or two as it is, maybe they should focus on getting their numbers right the first time.




Well but the law says a candidate must win with a majority.   So if a multiparty race doesn't produce that result...


----------



## Eric

lizkat said:


> Well but the law says a candidate must win with a majority.   So if a multiparty race doesn't produce that result...



I would argue the one with the most votes wins the majority, even if it's below 50%. Honestly this is totally pointless and takes an already slighted system of suppressing voters and makes it harder.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/12/05/georgia-runoff-history/
		




> While 10 states use runoffs in primary elections, Georgia and Louisiana are the only two that do so in general elections. Georgia’s system was created in 1964 after the urging of Denmark Groover, who blamed Black voters for a reelection loss and proposed runoffs. Groover later acknowledged the runoff system was intended to suppress Black political representation.
> 
> While runoff elections had existed for decades in Southern primaries, Georgia’s enthusiastic adoption of two-round voting came as a way of “ensuring a conservative White candidate won an election,” said Ashton Ellett, a political historian and archivist at the University of Georgia.
> 
> 
> “A runoff makes it harder for folks who have less resources to vote. This was before advanced in-person voting or [voting was offered] by mail and when we had many other unfair, iniquitous, undemocratic policies. It wasn’t for a partisan advantage so much as an ideological and cultural one,” Ellett said.


----------



## Roller

Alli said:


> I will never understand how this election was as close as it was. How did almost half the state vote for Walker?



It ended up better than I expected as the results were coming in last night, but still too close for comfort. Imagine what wold have happened if the Republicans had run a more competent candidate than Walker. (A low bar, know.)

I think most of the people who voted for Walker did so only because he had an "R" next to his name. Even the ones who were aware of his extreme unfitness to hold any elected office figured he'd vote and do as he was told in the Senate.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Alli said:


> I will never understand how this election was as close as it was. How did almost half the state vote for Walker?




STOP. THAT.   More than half the state didn’t vote at all. About 17% voted for Walker. It’s my current personal mission to rail against “Half the state/country” propaganda.  It's extremely misleading, disingenuous, and a falsehood both sides try to use to their advantage.


----------



## SuperMatt

Walker’s initial numbers were propped up by people who voted for Kemp and then just went straight ticket. There were many Kemp supporters who just stayed home for the runoff.


----------



## Eric

Herschel Walker's son says Trump called his father for months demanding that he run, while 'everyone with a brain' begged him not to
					

Herschel Walker was dogged by allegations during his Georgia Senate campaign, including that he paid for women to have abortions.




					www.businessinsider.com
				




Herschel Walker's son says Trump called his father for months demanding that he run, while 'everyone with a brain' begged him not to​

Herschel Walker, the GOP candidate, lost the Georgia Senate runoff to his Democratic rival on Tuesday.
Walker's son said his father ran after Trump called for months, "demanding" that he do so.
His son said "everyone with a brain" urged Walker not to run due to his "insane past."
Look at all the ugliness this brought out for Hershel, his past relationships and the family turning on him. Maybe TLC can pick them up for a reality show.


----------



## Herdfan

Alli said:


> I will never understand how this election was as close as it was. How did almost half the state vote for Walker?




You live in the south and know just how big SEC football is.  And how crazy UGA fans are and he was a star for them.

Think about how Nancy Pelosi described AOC's district in that a "glass of water with a "D" beside its name could win in that district".  Similar concept.


----------



## rdrr

Herdfan said:


> You live in the south and know just how big SEC football is.  And how crazy UGA fans are and he was a star for them.
> 
> Think about how Nancy Pelosi described AOC's district in that a "glass of water with a "D" beside its name could win in that district".  Similar concept.



Ok that puts some of the really extreme exceptions, but how do you justify voting for someone who beat his wife, threatened her with a gun to his head, and paid for abortions then claim to be pro-life?  That would be a hard thing to overlook, even for a local sport hero. 

Walker got over 1.7 million people to overlook that, which makes zero sense for 1,699,900 people who mostly claim to be god fearing Christians.


----------



## fooferdoggie

rdrr said:


> Ok that puts some of the really extreme exceptions, but how do you justify voting for someone who beat his wife, threatened her with a gun to his head, and paid for abortions then claim to be pro-life?  That would be a hard thing to overlook, even for a local sport hero.  He got over 1.7 million people to overlook that, which makes zero sense for 1,699,900 people who mostly claim to be god fearing christians.



trump did most of those and worse and he became president.


----------



## rdrr

fooferdoggie said:


> trump did most of those and worse and he became president.



I am not minimizing what Trump did, but to put a gun to someone's head and threaten to shoot them...  That is way beyond normal, even for a local sports hero.   I haven't heard that claim about Trump.


----------



## fooferdoggie

rdrr said:


> I am not minimizing what Trump did, but to put a gun to someone's head and threaten to shoot them...  That is way beyond normal, even for a local sports hero.   I haven't heard that claim about Trump.



well ya but trump raped his wife. raped a underage girl.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> You live in the south and know just how big SEC football is.  And how crazy UGA fans are and he was a star for them.
> 
> Think about how Nancy Pelosi described AOC's district in that a "glass of water with a "D" beside its name could win in that district".  Similar concept.





It's true that Ocasio-Cortez won by running in a district where the incumbent was asleep at the switch because it had been a "safe" district and past that the incumbent was a member of party leadership, doubling down on the idea of what "safe" means.

Nonetheless what AOC did was to stand in a primary for a Democrat's House seat (at all, never mind as a progressive) and so disrupt the whole idea of a safe district.  That is also a part of what the extreme right has done with MAGA candidates.

The difference (in my humble opinion) is that AOC and other progressives like Pramila Jayapal have advanced progressive ideas and actually influenced policy over time in the Democratic Party.   This despite the occasional efforts of Ms. Pelosi --in the understandable interests of keeping her party together--  to minimize the impact of any one particular member if that impact would impede passage of key legislation.

As far as I can tell, and in contrast to the behavior of the Democrats, the consistent focus of the GOP with respect to standing up MAGA oriented members of the US House has been to try to remove effective Republican moderates from government,  to derogate the role of federal government in general, and to attempt a rollback of rules and laws that are actually favored by the majority of Americans.

The GOP didn't prevent Trump from trying to bring that tactic over to the US Senate.  It failed. I will except the candidacy of Vance, since he is just a venture capitalist in populist clothing.   He is a more typical Republican candidate of yesteryear...  "Trust me I'm not a socialist."

The five Senate races that the GOP otherwise lost (including the one flipped in Pennsylvania) were a direct result of the Republicans failing to understand that what may work in a House race does not work statewide for a Senate race.   The extreme views of today's Trump-encumbered GOP cannot attract enough independent and regular conservative votes in a statewide race.   The governor's races also reflect that, although in a number of those,  the successful R governorship winners, incumbent or otherwise, were more moderate than some of the downballot races like attorney general or secretary of state.

The Democrats may (and ordinarily would)  have a hard time in 2024 because of need to defend 23 of the 26 Senate seats up that year besides trying to hold the Presidency.   But the Republicans need to take a lesson from what happened in 2020 and 2022 if they mean to be able to capitalize on the Ds' potential vulnerabilities.

So far it doesn't really sound to me like the lessons are sinking in.   The Rs remain political cowards, even after Trump nowadays turns out to be just a millstone around their necks. But rrom them I'd only expect more interim attempts at state levels now to try to make it easier to restrict voting and set aside unwanted results going foward.

There's only so long McConnell can try to dance that dance of suggesting that someone saying what Trump has been saying lately "isn't likely" to be able "to be elected" or "to be sworn in" as the American president.

I actually took it as ominous that the second time Mitch opened his mouth on the subject of Trump lately is that he even said "to be sworn in" but then maybe so should Trump.    I was thinking,,,,  _what, Mitch figures that the GOP figures Trump could be sworn in without being elected?_    But Trump should maybe  be thinking that McConnell figures Trump could land in prison orange no matter what else happens.

The midterms are over.  The Rs have a skinny margin in the House.  The Ds have a savvy pol in the White House and a majority in the Senate.    Time for the Rs to quit vamping while the Special Counsel wraps up Trump's career.  Get out in front of a trainwreck for once and renounce Trump before the justice system moots the possibility of his splitting the Republican Party.


----------



## Herdfan

rdrr said:


> Ok that puts some of the really extreme exceptions, but how do you justify voting for someone who beat his wife, threatened her with a gun to his head, and paid for abortions then claim to be pro-life?  That would be a hard thing to overlook, even for a local sport hero.
> 
> Walker got over 1.7 million people to overlook that, which makes zero sense for 1,699,900 people who mostly claim to be god fearing Christians.




Well SEC football fans have never been reasonable.


----------



## rdrr

Herdfan said:


> Well SEC football fans have never been reasonable.



I guess, but they all can't be UGA fans, some have to be GT fans right?   I mean, the yellow jackets have the best fight song.  The debate over cheer vs join aside of course.


----------



## lizkat

Alli said:


> I will never understand how this election was as close as it was. How did almost half the state vote for Walker?




When the primaries are over and it's general election time,  a lot of people will vote their usual party preference,  no matter if the candidate who won the primary is someone they have to hunt up a clothespin to put over nose before going to the polls to support.

Still the fact that the Rs did not withdraw support for Walker as more about his character and lack of fitness surfaced during his initial campaign would just astound me,  if I weren't already stunned by their longstanding and ongoing failure to throw Donald Trump overboard with the barest of blessings. 

There is usually a limit on what a party will tolerate in a candidate for a general election. but there's no limits on anything when a party is digging a bottomless pit for itself.  I don't get the craven GOP leadership these days,  nor its lockstep MAGA supporters, nor even the choice of the rest of the conservative electorate in that Georgia runoff.    I understand policy differences, but not in a vacuum as a standalone criterion.

Maybe that election will serve as a turning point.  Interesting if some who voted for Walker but who are secretly relieved that he did not win will take that one step further and ask publicly why the Republican Party didn't put up a candidate actually worthy of their vote.   What the GOP did to the Georgia voters.  and to Herschel Walker as well, was unconscionable and an insult to the whole state.   By not withdrawing support of Walker, the Rs signaled zero interest in vetting whether their candidate was capable of representing in the US Senate the interests of the people of Georgia.    By now they certainly know that Trump doesn't make that sort of assessment.


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> Still the fact that the Rs did not withdraw support for Walker as more about his character and lack of fitness surfaced during his initial campaign would just astound me,  if I weren't already stunned by their longstanding and ongoing failure to throw Donald Trump overboard with the barest of blessings.




I'm still kind of surprised he wasn't vetted better.  Maybe they just looked at the name and said "GoooooDawgs!".


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> I'm still kind of surprised he wasn't vetted better.  Maybe they just looked at the name and said "GoooooDawgs!".



Typically they're pretty well vetted on either side, this was a Trump pick and he rammed him through. We've been hearing from a lot of rational Republicans (whether we agree with them or not they're just standing by their own beliefs) that have called this out and want to get back to their party values.

I don't see that happening until they're able to put Trump behind them, frankly I'll be glad to go back to a time where we just disagreed on issues but showed some mutual respect.


----------



## mac_in_tosh

Roller said:


> I think most of the people who voted for Walker did so only because he had an "R" next to his name. Even the ones who were aware of his extreme unfitness to hold any elected office figured he'd vote and do as he was told in the Senate.



Yes. I try to imagine that if Walker were a Democrat would I hold my nose and vote for him just to prevent the likes of Ted Cruz, Lindsey Graham et al from gaining a majority in the Senate?


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> I'm still kind of surprised he wasn't vetted better.  Maybe they just looked at the name and said "GoooooDawgs!".




I maintain the leadership of this GOP are cowards.   They didn't want to risk losing Trump's base...  even when it began to become apparent that the independents and traditional conservatives were tiring of Trump.  But now the midterms are over and really they don't have an excuse any more. They know who and what Trump is and that there's apparently no bottom to his range of misbehavior. 

AND they and all of us now know that *Trump loses conservative votes* that the Rs could have secured with more traditional conservative candidates. 

Time to face the music the Rs scored for themselves back in 2016.   Renounce Trump on the most reasonable grounds there are for a party to renounce a member as candidate:   he threatens the viability of the party itself.  If he stands for the prez primary and loses he'll make the threat overt, split the party and return Biden or some other Dem to the White House.

So the Rs need to remake that party to appeal to more people.  Reinstate a policy-based platform to replace the "Trump is our god" absurdity of 2020.  Eat the relatively small further losses of MAGA support in the meantime, perhaps including some off-year races and special elections that Trump might decide to try to wreck out of rage.  Not cutting their losses during Trump's presidency has already cost them dearly in 2020 and 2022.  

How long do the Rs want to spend in the desert anyway?  How can it matter now if they stand up a regular conservative in a special election and lose to some MAGA touted by Trump from the sidelines?   How long do we think conservative Americans will like the show that MTG and Jim Jordan expect Kevin McCarthy to put up with in the House on his skinny majority there?

The general electorate tires of MAGA...  and it's the general electorate that installs the winners into seats of government.  Americans expect more of government than a circus after all.  It's what they said in 2022 and again in the Georgia runoff.


----------



## fooferdoggie

the way he lost so many elections he has less real power then pence's fly but the yellow belly sapsuckers still quake in fear. even the turtle.


----------



## lizkat

fooferdoggie said:


> the way he lost so many elections he has less real power then pence's fly but the yellow belly sapsuckers still quake in fear. even the turtle.




Yeah I don't get now why McConnell still dances like that.. except that there was actually some opposition to his remaining leader of his party in the Senate this time around, and it came from MAGA-supporting guys during attempt of Scott to wrest the post away from McConnell. 

There is ongoing pressure from the same crowd to make things difficult for McConnell in the upcoming term as he leads the minority in the Senate.    But,  I don't happen to think that those guys are reading the election results correctly.  And I don't think Americans expect or want the US Senate to act like the House does in terms of pot stirring on issues of the moment.   It's supposed to be a place where negotiation takes place on key legislation.  After all, how else work out how to represent the national interests of a nation made of entire states full of people with varied cultural and commercial interests.



			Senate MAGA mutineers work on new ways to punish Mitch McConnell
		





> Senate Republicans irate about having to spend another two years toiling away in the minority are vying to exert more influence as a MAGA clique that can muck things up for Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell from now on.
> 
> "The way the Senate operates today with backroom deals and bills being added and subtracted behind closed doors is not not the way this place is supposed to operate," Sen. Ted Cruz said between votes at the US Capitol.
> 
> The Texas Republican called the unsuccessful leadership challenge Sen. Rick Scott of Florida mounted against McConnell last month "good and healthy," and said that the collective frustration with the status quo was still simmering.
> 
> "I believe we should stand up and fight. And we haven't been doing that nearly as much as we should," Cruz told Insider, adding, "And I think that discussion will remain ongoing."
> 
> Cruz is one of the McConnell foils Politico says have formed an informal "breakfast club" designed to replicate the leadership-needling power of conservatives involved with the Trump-aligned House Freedom Caucus and culture war-inclined Republican Study Committee.




So lemme get this straight.   These guys figure that the way to get ahead while being in the minority is to make things difficult for their own party leadership to negotiate effectively and help get things done?   They may have had their heads up someplace where the sun don't shine for far too long while expressing loyalty to The Don.


----------



## Yoused

Herdfan said:


> I'm still kind of surprised he wasn't vetted better.  Maybe they just looked at the name and said "GoooooDawgs!".



The QOP is the party of stupid. Their primary broad base appeal is to stupid people. That was a major reason for them to promote Walker, because who better for their stupid base to support and trust than a well-known idiot? The Republican base is not particularly comfotable with intelligent people (after all, intelligence, that is what the CIA does, ewww).


----------



## lizkat

Yoused said:


> The QOP is the party of stupid. Their primary broad base appeal is to stupid people. That was a major reason for them to promote Walker, because who better for their stupid base to support and trust than a well-known idiot? The Republican base is not particularly comfotable with intelligent people (after all, intelligence, that is what the CIA does, ewww).




Maybe a few are starting to rethink the wisdom of appealing to stupid when (somehow, against increasing odds?) the genpop still includes people capable of critical thinking when push comes to shove.   

Raphael Warnock, because of Georgia's runoff election law and the fact that he first ran in a special election to fill out a term,  has now won four straight elections for his Senate seat... all inside of two years.  Georgia does have quite a collection of people with active brain cells, seems like. 

Now Warnock gets to occupy that seat and continue to work for the people of Georgia for six years.  At least he can quit campaigning for a couple of months and catch his breath...

Meanwhile, per the WaPo in its rolling update today on the Georgia election result,  it was noted that two Republican US Senators have publicly distanced themselves from Trump in the wake of Herschel Walker's failure to dislodge Raphael Warnock from that Senate seat. 

One is John Cornyn (Texas) and the other John Thune (South Dakota).

Thune said "I think [Trump's] obsession with the 2020 election became an albatross and a real liability for people who were running, especially in swing states."

Cornyn, after noting that the result in Georgia proved the GOP need to broaden their base of support past Trump fans: "...in this business you have to win elections before you actually govern. It’s not like coming in second and getting a trophy like you did in junior high school. You can’t win unless you get more votes than your opponent.”

Leaving the result of Georgia's Senate race aside, Trump may be more than disappointed to hear his supposed compatriots talk like that.  In his mind what needs to happen is just ditch the inconvenient pieces of the Constitution and install him as President for life.  What could be simpler?  Just shred the underpinnings of our rule of law and roll with a strongman government.  All the freedoms he'll decide are necessary will be ours when he's in charge.

To hear Donald Trump talk sometimes, we don't even need a Senate or a House of Representatives.  After all, he alone can fix everything.   

Just look at how all that has worked out so far, right?   Right?   [crickets sing in the twilight]

The rats may not be leaving the GOP's sinking ship, and Trump still has fans onshore,  but some of the less stupid officers and other crew are now toying with the idea of giving Trump a shove before that ship of fools ever has to try to make port at another polling place again.  For my money they could start with Ronna McDaniel at the RNC and clean that ship of fools too.


----------



## lizkat

This opinion piece is a good read...    "The tragedy of Herschel Walker" (WaPo, paywall removed)



> Herschel Walker could be basking in his former glory, his many offenses against women, children, honesty and the English language neatly masked by the invisibility cloak of celebrity. He is, after all, a walking personification of University of Georgia football, and Georgia is flying high: undefeated and ranked No. 1. Every great season stirs memories of past triumphs, and Walker is — or was, anyway — triumph personified.
> 
> In three seasons before turning pro after his junior year, the powerful running back scored 52 touchdowns, rushed for more than 5,000 yards and won 33 games against just three losses. He won the 1982 Heisman Trophy by a mile over a Stanford University quarterback named John Elway. Walker was the marquee player of the short-lived U.S. Football League, then entered the National Football League, where he racked up 61 touchdowns.
> 
> Perhaps, to borrow a phrase, he got tired of winning, because today he is known for his humiliating campaign for U.S. Senate from Georgia.






> What compels a person to shower in gasoline and light up a cigar? In Walker’s case, it is a familiar story. He came into the orbit of that serial destroyer of other people’s reputations, Donald Trump.
> 
> The two men bonded after Trump acquired the New Jersey Generals of the USFL in 1983. Walker was the Generals’ superstar; luring him away from college the previous year had been a coup for the upstart league. Trump believed that Walker’s on-field prowess could help him force a merger with the established NFL.
> 
> Instead, like many of Trump’s enterprises, the league went bust. The mogul and his athletic marvel split on friendly terms after the 1985 season, the USFL’s last, during which Walker gained an incredible 2,411 yards. Despite going their separate ways — Walker to the NFL, Trump to the money pit of Atlantic City — they remained friendly. And we all know what becomes of Trump’s friends.






> By encouraging Walker to run for the Senate and endorsing him in the Republican primary, Trump reminded the world of his contempt for American government and American ideals. One hot mess is as good as the next when it comes to burning down the GOP and replacing it with a cult of Trump. As usual, voters disagreed and rejected Walker — just as they rejected Trump’s unready candidates in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Arizona in November.


----------



## Yoused

Herschel is absolutely shocked that he only got 74% of the vote in Johnson County, where he grew up and says he is going to call the Sheriff to find out who did not vote for him.


----------



## Yoused

Recent poll says that two-thirds of Americans feel that the country is "on the wrong track", and that neither party is well suited to fixing our problems. The poll reveals that most Americans consider the Republicans too extreme and the Democrats too much of the opposite extreme.

The Democrats are extreme? WhoTF is running the damn media? Because that is some powerful effective messaging that gets that many people seeing the Ds as extreme.


----------



## lizkat

I found this FiveThirtyEight piece interesting, particularly about the Dems flipping the Senate seat in Pennsylvania.   Apparently what helped put the Dem over the top was that white voters without a college degree voted blue for a change and went for John Fetterman by numbers that overperformed Biden's 2020 numbers.

That wasn't an accident, since the Dem campaign did focus on them, and it may have been in part because some of that base is rural and might not have been all that impressed by the celebrity of Dr. Mehmet Oz.   So it might have been part strategy, part the respective backgrounds of Fetterman and Oz, part turnout effort plus  "a wing and a prayer" for parts of rural PA that can often vote deep deep red..  but whatever it was, it worked out great for the Dems. 









						The Voters Who Helped Democrats Keep the Senate
					

How Democrats broadened Biden’s 2020 coalition in key states.




					fivethirtyeight.com


----------



## GermanSuplex

lizkat said:


> The difference (in my humble opinion) is that AOC and other progressives like Pramila Jayapal have advanced progressive ideas and actually influenced policy over time in the Democratic Party.   This despite the occasional efforts of Ms. Pelosi --in the understandable interests of keeping her party together--  to minimize the impact of any one particular member if that impact would impede passage of key legislation.
> 
> As far as I can tell, and in contrast to the behavior of the Democrats, the consistent focus of the GOP with respect to standing up MAGA oriented members of the US House has been to try to remove effective Republican moderates from government,  to derogate the role of federal government in general, and to attempt a rollback of rules and laws that are actually favored by the majority of Americans.




I was reading an article with a quote in it that pretty much sums it up and echoes what you’re saying…

_Sarah Longwell, a Republican strategist, told me, “The Dems’ extreme people are extreme on progressive policies. The Republicans’ extreme are extreme on the level of the insane taking over the asylum.”









						What Kevin McCarthy Will Do to Gain Power — The New Yorker
					

What Kevin McCarthy will do to gain power.




					apple.news
				



_


----------



## lizkat

GermanSuplex said:


> I was reading an article with a quote in it that pretty much sums it up and echoes what you’re saying…
> 
> _Sarah Longwell, a Republican strategist, told me, “The Dems’ extreme people are extreme on progressive policies. The Republicans’ extreme are extreme on the level of the insane taking over the asylum.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What Kevin McCarthy Will Do to Gain Power — The New Yorker
> 
> 
> What Kevin McCarthy will do to gain power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _




Longwell's not wrong about that.   The more vocal of the House Freedom Caucus have been an irresponsible bunch of legislators since they first gathered and started obstructing just about every move that then speaker Boehner made.  Not because they objected to specific legislation.  They mostly just object to federal government.   They're there to dismantle it from within. 

But I'm starting to think they'll end up dismantling the Republican Party instead.   Couldn't happen to a more deserving crowd. I mean the rest of the GOP legislators have stood around and either watched the circus or else have even joined in sometimes.The problem with that is that the novelty is finally wearing off.  Voters who lean right and actually show up at the polls are starting to resent the choices they end up with in the general election,  after years of the right primarying its own with farther right candidates.

The HFC crowd have just about got out too far ahead of the Rs' base now.  That might not show up in 2024 depending on how it goes with Biden, but the dissatisfaction of conservatives over the not-serious behavior of the extreme right of their own party is growing. 

So 2026, 2028 is probably the farthest out the Rs can keep ignoring that elephant in their own living room, at risk of spending decades as a minority.    Americans are more about inclusion any more than exclusion.  Choice.  Choice is freedom.  Freedom is not what the extreme Rs say it is.  Freedom is not imposing THEIR choice on everyone. 

But how does the House Freedom Caucus deal with that?  By doubling down on the idea of saying NO, NO, NO.   They don't have a platform.  They are why the Trump-kowtowing Rs had a platform of "Trump is our guy" in 2020 and it's why they lost in 2020 and won a skinny majority instead of a landslide in 2022.  They say no to Dems but they don't have alternate ideas to offer to all of America, nothing to expand their appeal and grow their party's base.


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> I found this FiveThirtyEight piece interesting, particularly about the Dems flipping the Senate seat in Pennsylvania.   Apparently what helped put the Dem over the top was that white voters without a college degree voted blue for a change and went for John Fetterman by numbers that overperformed Biden's 2020 numbers.
> 
> That wasn't an accident, since the Dem campaign did focus on them, and it may have been in part because some of that base is rural and might not have been all that impressed by the celebrity of Dr. Mehmet Oz.   So it might have been part strategy, part the respective backgrounds of Fetterman and Oz, part turnout effort plus  "a wing and a prayer" for parts of rural PA that can often vote deep deep red..  but whatever it was, it worked out great for the Dems.




Maybe I should run.  I wear as much Carhartt as Fetterman did.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Maybe I should run.  I wear as much Carhartt as Fetterman did.




You'd be an improvement over some of the other candidates AZ has put on offer (from either side of the aisle).

I know that's a low bar though, so no insult intended.


----------



## Herdfan

lizkat said:


> You'd be an improvement over some of the other candidates AZ has put on offer (from either side of the aisle).
> 
> I know that's a low bar though, so no insult intended.




I don't know.  Out there I would probably have to switch to Ariat.


----------



## lizkat

Turning back to the midterms:  they are over at last,  but still pending the swearing-in ceremonies of the new Congress... and that may be a good thing, too, all things considered.









						Who Is Rep.-Elect George Santos? His Résumé May Be Largely Fiction.
					

Mr. Santos, a Republican from New York, says he’s the “embodiment of the American dream.” But he seems to have misrepresented a number of his career highlights.




					www.nytimes.com
				




Wow. A Republican made up of whole cloth and even at that full of holes. Hardly anything checks out in reality versus the background, CV and claims of this Long Island GOP representative-elect.

That bombshell of a report dropped on Monday and  should possibly have carried a subhead like "So don't fuck with NYT investigative journos" since it uncovered more holes than facts in his CV.

Maybe we need criteria stronger than being a citizen for at least 7 years, being at least 25 years old and living in the state from which elected.   The rather loose additional requirement that the House "confirm" elected members before they are sworn in suddenly seems not only vague but careless.

It's possible Mr. Santos may face at least charges of wire fraud by time authorities look into possible lawbreaking.   "What can he have been thinking?"  is the least of the questions really.   We live in an era where audacious disregard for norms, protocol, rules, law itself seems to be gaining steam,  and that arrogance needs a smackdown for sure.   Some Long Island voters in that district are already saying they wouldn't have voted for him if they'd known he lied about his education and employment, never mind now having questions about his wealth and claims regarding nonprofits and investments.









						New York lawmaker calls on DOJ to open a 'conspiracy' investigation into 'complete fraud' George Santos
					

During an appearance on "CNN This Morning," incoming Democratic lawmaker and former Donald Trump House impeachment lawyer Dan Goldman claimed there is plenty of evidence to compel the Justice Department to open an investigation into the embattled Rep-elect. George Santos (R-NY)Following a...




					www.rawstory.com
				




A clip from an embedded video:





As if that were not enough,  Mr. Santos was one of three incoming freshmen Republican representatives who went to a NYC Young Republicans gala event earlier this month,  a gathering that featured GOP fringe extremists and drew media attention because MTG was in attendance and ran her mouth about how if she and Steve Bannon had organized the 1/6 insurrection, "we would have won, not to mention it would have been armed." 









						A New York Gala Draws Incoming G.O.P. Lawmakers, and Extremists
					

Organizations that track extremism have expressed concern about some of the attendees at a New York Young Republican Club event in Manhattan on Saturday.




					www.nytimes.com
				






> The leader of the Young Republican Club, Gavin Mario Wax, opened Saturday night’s event on Park Avenue in Manhattan by calling for “total war” on Republican enemies.
> 
> Attendees included Peter Brimelow, the founder of the anti-immigration website VDare, which publishes writings by white nationalists and which the Southern Poverty Law Center classifies as a hate group. Also in attendance was Jack Posobiec, a far-right commentator known for promoting the PizzaGate conspiracy theory that Hillary Clinton and Democratic elites were running a child sex-trafficking ring out of a Washington pizzeria.
> 
> And beyond Ms. Greene, guests of honor included three Republicans who took districts from Democrats in last month’s midterm elections: George Santos of Long Island; Cory Mills of Central Florida; and Mike Collins of the northern exurbs of Atlanta.




Interesting for part of Long Island to end up with a GOP Congressman whose resumé is full of holes and whose claimed attributes include being gay, a nonobservant Jew and a Roman Catholic, while now also apparently an aficionado of white nationalist gatherings.  He has not commented on refutations of his additional claim that his grandparents fled the Holocaust when it appears that both were born in Brazil rather than emigrating there from Europe.  A prior generation had Belgian roots.  About 20% of the district he campaigned in is Jewish, so the murkiness of his claims regarding ancestry is not going over too well in that community.   There's just enough plausibility in Santos' general assertions about the religiously oriented circumstances of his Brazilian ancestry to pass muster unless someone looks into the specifics.... which, of course,  journalists for a number of media outlets have done.









						Congressman-elect George Santos lied about grandparents fleeing anti-Jewish persecution during WWII
					

Genealogy records, Facebook posts and other online clues show that Congressman-elect George Santos' claims of Jewish heritage are false.




					forward.com


----------



## Herdfan

Ok, now can we do Joe Biden?

You know, the tales about law school that forced him out of the 1987 Presidential race.

Or the tale about traveling to Afghanistan to pin a Silver Star on the Navy Captain for rescuing his comrade.  Turns out it was an Army Specialist, a CMOH, the ceremony was at the WH and Obama was the one who awarded it.

I can keep going if you like.......  Nah, I'll just let the NYT do it:









						Biden, Storyteller in Chief, Spins Yarns That Often Unravel
					

President Biden has been unable to break himself of the habit of embellishing narratives to weave a political identity.




					www.nytimes.com
				




While this does not make what Santos did OK, it simply points out that people don't care when it is "their guy" is doing it.


----------



## lizkat

Herdfan said:


> Ok, now can we do Joe Biden?
> 
> You know, the tales about law school that forced him out of the 1987 Presidential race.
> 
> Or the tale about traveling to Afghanistan to pin a Silver Star on the Navy Captain for rescuing his comrade.  Turns out it was an Army Specialist, a CMOH, the ceremony was at the WH and Obama was the one who awarded it.
> 
> I can keep going if you like.......  Nah, I'll just let the NYT do it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biden, Storyteller in Chief, Spins Yarns That Often Unravel
> 
> 
> President Biden has been unable to break himself of the habit of embellishing narratives to weave a political identity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While this does not make what Santos did OK, it simply points out that people don't care when it is "their guy" is doing it.




I'm not going to defend any pol's embellishment or omission and I don't care which party's pols do it, including Prez of the USA.   It's not right and I don't even understand why they do it.  Insecurity?

Santos appears to have got himself way out there past embellishment and into likely legal jeopardy,  I can't fathom how or why he figured he could skate on _so much pure fabrication, _but way more to the point, how the hell did the Republican Party not turn up at least the "we have no record" gigs on his employment and education?

None of this makes any sense to me at all,  nor would it if the guy were a Democrat either.

Santos is like someone who has stepped into a fake ID --the kind created in advance for intel agents--  only the agency forgot to connect any of the dots for at least a casual inspection?!

It's just bizarre.   Or it's an example of how everyone assumes everything can be checked these days,  so no one would be brazen enough to assume that no one will bother checking.

Ya gotta wonder how many lazy people in the party hierarchy aren't doing their jobs, right?

Heads should be rolling in New York's state GOP.   Interesting that Nick Langworthy, the guy who has been the state chair,  was running for a House seat this year himself, and won it. He had stepped in to run against a more extreme candidate during the primary, fearing that the other guy was extreme enough to flip the seat blue even in a "safe" red district.​
So maybe some stuff fell through the cracks of regular party work, with Santos being a prime example.

Surely Santos wasn't meant to be just a warm body they plugged into that ballot,  the way a party might decide to put up a candidate for town supervisor who runs unopposed for long enough to become complacent.  This is a competitive district in Long Island,  and the GOP meant to win it (and did win it).

But how not vet their candidate at all?  If Santos ends up stepping down then there will be a special election in that piece of Long Island, and it's perhaps less certain next time out the box that the R candidate could win it, thanks to Santos' shenanigans.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Ok, now can we do Joe Biden?
> 
> You know, the tales about law school that forced him out of the 1987 Presidential race.
> 
> Or the tale about traveling to Afghanistan to pin a Silver Star on the Navy Captain for rescuing his comrade.  Turns out it was an Army Specialist, a CMOH, the ceremony was at the WH and Obama was the one who awarded it.
> 
> I can keep going if you like.......  Nah, I'll just let the NYT do it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biden, Storyteller in Chief, Spins Yarns That Often Unravel
> 
> 
> President Biden has been unable to break himself of the habit of embellishing narratives to weave a political identity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While this does not make what Santos did OK, it simply points out that people don't care when it is "their guy" is doing it.



Now do Trump.


----------



## lizkat

SuperMatt said:


> Now do Trump.




Don't even bother.    Jack Smith and Merrick Garland gonna fix Trump's wagon.

I wouldn't even count out the District Attorney of Fulton County, Georgia. Trump was soliciting vote fraud by Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia Secretary of State.  It's hard to get more illegal than that in an election case.

Remember that Kathy Bates line in Primary Colors?   "_The c***'s got tape." _​
In reality, in the Georgia case, the taped conversation was real and Brad Raffensperger can confirm it.


----------



## lizkat

More on Santos...  (of course there is more).









						Rep.-elect George Santos vows to respond next week to questions about holes in his bio
					

Santos has said he is an openly gay, self-made Republican whose Jewish grandparents fled the Holocaust. So far, no one has questioned the Republican part.




					www.nydailynews.com
				






> In the latest gap in his biography, Santos allegedly never mentioned that he was married to a woman and got divorced in 2019 just before he launched his political career, the Daily Beast reported Thursday.
> 
> Santos says he is now married to a man, but the Daily Beast could not find evidence of the union.
> 
> “[Santos] may have even lied about his sexuality,” tweeted Rep. Ritchie Torres (D-N.Y.), who is gay.






> Santos has been particularly outspoken about his gay identity and has promoted himself as being uniquely qualified to defend Republican policies on LGBTQ issues, including Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” law.
> 
> He once said that he hasn’t experienced anti-gay bigotry in the GOP in the past decade, a period during which he would have been mostly married to a woman, according to the Daily Beast.
> 
> “It’s sick and divisive that he would hold himself up as a gay leader while siding with the worst homophobes and using vile homophobic rhetoric,” Zimmerman said.




(Zimmerman was Santos' Democratic opponent in the midterm race for LI's third district.)


----------



## ronntaylor

lizkat said:


> More on Santos... (of course there is more).



When the Times first reported his avalanche of lies, my husband and I joked that maybe he's not even gay. It wouldn't surprise me if the marriage to the woman was one of convenience (AKA a financial transaction and/or for political imagery).


----------



## lizkat

ronntaylor said:


> When the Times first reported his avalanche of lies, my husband and I joked that maybe he's not even gay. It wouldn't surprise me if the marriage to the woman was one of convenience (AKA a financial transaction and/or for political imagery).




Such arrangements still do get made for whatever reasons.   There are jokes running around now though about how times have changed, and that now some people seeking celebrity (or political office?) may falsely out themselves as gay in order to avoid fading into the wallpaper as prosaically heterosexual.  But I don't think the people making such jokes have a clue about what it's like to come out as gay, "even" now.

Still, this aspect of wonderment about Santos is hardly the biggest issue for the NY03 voters.  They voted for a guy who now comes off as sort of hatched out on the half shell without an actual past, and about whose recent finances very little is also known.   I mean who and what is he really that he has all these fabricated bits of his life out there.  And how the hell did he not get vetted?  Turns out people don't really know squat about the guy behind the lies.  He appears to have some money.  Good thing.  He's gonna need lawyers.    He's saying he'll tell his story next week.  Meanwhile the sand is shifting under his feet.









						Congressman-elect George Santos responds after allegations he is a fraud
					

Embattled Congressman-elect George Santos has responded for the first time since allegations were made that his resume may be largely fiction.




					www.fox5ny.com
				






> He has claimed that he runs a family investment firm. On Tuesday, the firm changed its official mailing address with the Florida Secretary of State to a condo in Merritt Island.


----------



## Alli

lizkat said:


> Still, this aspect of wonderment about Santos is hardly the biggest issue for the NY03 voters. They voted for a guy who now comes off as sort of hatched out on the half shell without an actual past, and about whose recent finances very little is also known. I mean who and what is he really that he has all these fabricated bits of his life out there. And how the hell did he not get vetted? Turns out people don't really know squat about the guy behind the lies. He appears to have some money. Good thing. He's gonna need lawyers. He's saying he'll tell his story next week. Meanwhile the sand is shifting under his feet.



Maybe he’s…Jason Bourne?


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Now do Trump.




Absolutely.


----------



## Roller

Herdfan said:


> Ok, now can we do Joe Biden?
> 
> You know, the tales about law school that forced him out of the 1987 Presidential race.
> 
> Or the tale about traveling to Afghanistan to pin a Silver Star on the Navy Captain for rescuing his comrade.  Turns out it was an Army Specialist, a CMOH, the ceremony was at the WH and Obama was the one who awarded it.
> 
> I can keep going if you like.......  Nah, I'll just let the NYT do it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biden, Storyteller in Chief, Spins Yarns That Often Unravel
> 
> 
> President Biden has been unable to break himself of the habit of embellishing narratives to weave a political identity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While this does not make what Santos did OK, it simply points out that people don't care when it is "their guy" is doing it.



All politicians stretch the truth or fabricate outright at times. For that matter, I think everyone does it at some point, perhaps on the premise that a lie is preferable for various reasons. But degree and intent matter.


----------



## Yoused

ronntaylor said:


> When the Times first reported his avalanche of lies, my husband and I joked that maybe he's not even gay. It wouldn't surprise me if the marriage to the woman was one of convenience (AKA a financial transaction and/or for political imagery).




Sexuality is a complex thing. I personally believe that true monosexuals are an equal minority (there are no more genuine straights than genuine gays) and the bulk of people, probably at least two-thirds of us, have some degree of cross-inclination. The high prevalence of "straight" people is largely a cultural construct. I also believe that for that majority, there can be some fluidity to a person's inclinations.

If the guy is of the majority, his sexual preference may be governed by whom he finds himself attracted to, bonding to. If he is in a steady homosexual relationship, he will, by the social binarism that is imposed on us, call himself "gay" because that is how he is getting off. But it is very likely that he is not a true monosexual.


----------



## Renzatic

Herdfan said:


> Maybe I should run.  I wear as much Carhartt as Fetterman did.




I dunno if I'd vote for you, but you have my moral support.


----------



## ronntaylor

lizkat said:


> Turns out people don't really know squat about the guy behind the lies. *He appears to have some money.* Good thing. He's gonna need lawyers. He's saying he'll tell his story next week. Meanwhile the sand is shifting under his feet.



How did he come into money though? He's been evicted at least twice in the past 5/6 years. He still has an active GoFundMe campaign to help pay for his mother's funeral expenses from 2016. Someone is bankrolling him. Probably the folk behind the Ponzi scheme he recently worked for. Many of the workers moved to a new firm with questionable financing.

Again, it would have been nice had the Dems and the media (and even the GOP) had vetted this fool *before* the election. That race was compelling with him losing the previous contest after initially being declared the winner election night. And then for this year's contest, the winner would be an openly* gay man. I couldn't believe how little press and noise this contest generated.

I seriously doubt the GOP will make any noise about his lies and fraud. The best hope is that if he's committed some fraud that can lead to a conviction, it will give the Dems a chance to take back the seat. And it'll be interesting to see about the outstanding warrant/charge in Brazil.

* it remains to be seen if he's actually "gay" in some circles.


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## lizkat

ronntaylor said:


> How did he come into money though?




Who the heck knows.  He had ( or somehow got) enough money to lend $700K to his campaign.   So it goes back to whether he borrowed it from the company that he supposedly runs from Florida.  The one that just filed a change of address with the Florida corporate registration agency.   The one that doesn't have a website or a LinkedIn page or anything...


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## Alli

ronntaylor said:


> How did he come into money though? He's been evicted at least twice in the past 5/6 years. He still has an active GoFundMe campaign to help pay for his mother's funeral expenses from 2016. Someone is bankrolling him. Probably the folk behind the Ponzi scheme he recently worked for. Many of the workers moved to a new firm with questionable financing.



Same source as paid off all Kavanaugh’s debts.


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## shadow puppet

YASSSS!!!


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## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Absolutely.



Still waiting…


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## Pumbaa

SuperMatt said:


> Still waiting…



He could legitimately still be working on it, I mean, Trump…


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