# Marvel Cinematic Universe



## Huntn

This is a big Marvel Movie:

*


*

*Thor Love and Thunder*
Currently filming for a 2022 release.​








						Thor: Love and Thunder (2022) - IMDb
					

Thor: Love and Thunder: Directed by Taika Waititi. With Chris Hemsworth, Natalie Portman, Christian Bale, Tessa Thompson. Thor enlists the help of Valkyrie, Korg and ex-girlfriend Jane Foster to fight Gorr the God Butcher, who intends to make the gods extinct.




					www.imdb.com
				











						Thor: Love and Thunder - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Directed by *Taika Waititi
Jane Foster/Mighty Thor-* Natalie Portman. Or should we say Ms Thor. 
*Thor- *Chris Hemsworth
*Peter Quill- *Chris Pratt
*Gorr the God Butcher-* Christian Bale
*Nebula- *Karen Gilliam
*Valkyrie*- Tessa Thompson
*Sif- *Jamie Alexander
*Kraglin-* Sean Gunn


----------



## Pumbaa

Wow. Just wow. That image/poster screams ”parody” to me. Loudly.

That said, I’m strangely confident that I will find the movie to be both entertaining and a worthy addition to the MCU. Looking forward to watching it!


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> Wow. Just wow. That image/poster screams ”parody” to me. Loudly.
> 
> That said, I’m strangely confident that I will find the movie to be both entertaining and a worthy addition to the MCU. Looking forward to watching it!



I never read the Thor or Mighty Thor comics with Jane Foster gaining the power of Thor, however since it’s part of comic lore, I’m good with it and I’m actually wondering what happens with Thor, if he continues as Fat Thor (Avengers). 

My favorite Marvel movie franchises are Thor,  Guardians of the Universe, early X-Men and early Spider-Man.


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> I never read the Thor or Mighty Thor comics with Jane Foster gaining the power of Thor, however since it’s part of comic lore, I’m good with it and I’m actually wondering what happens with Thor, if he continues as Fat Thor (Avengers).
> 
> My favorite Marvel movie franchises are Thor,  Guardians of the Universe, early X-Men and early Spider-Man.



I fear Fat Thor is lost to us, but we’ll have to wait and see I guess.

As for Marvel comics, I mostly grew up with our uncanny X-Men, some amazing Spider-Man, and a few incredible issues of Hulk, so the MCU was kind of a breath of fresh air. The Avengers were vaguely familiar (yay crossovers!), but the Guardians of the Galaxy were a complete mystery to me until I saw the movies. And now I have a baby Groot plant pot. 

Really looking forward to all upcoming releases and franchises. It will also be interesting to see what they chose to do with the supposedly reclaimed Fox IP.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> I never read the Thor or Mighty Thor comics with Jane Foster gaining the power of Thor, however since it’s part of comic lore, I’m good with it and I’m actually wondering what happens with Thor, if he continues as Fat Thor (Avengers).
> 
> My favorite Marvel movie franchises are Thor,  Guardians of the Universe, early X-Men and early Spider-Man.



The original series where you actually don't know for sure she became the new Thor was really good.  Then they revealed it was her, and the circumstances & it just put it in orbit.

The series ran for a bit, had great art & story, which ran to a conclusion.



Spoiler: IF you want to know the circumstances & conclusion



https://screenrant.com/jane-foster-best-thor-death/
Jane Foster's death in Marvel Comics has always seemed to be inevitable. Writer Jason Aaron's run has revealed that Jane is dying of cancer and worse still, every time she picks up Mjolnir and transforms into Thor, the effect of Jane's chemotherapy is reversed. The cancer is killing her, and Jane's frail human body cannot survive another transformation. Unfortunately, all this is set against the backdrop of the War of the Realms, and Jane has just picked up Mjolnir one last time in order to fight to save Asgard from Mangog.

This has certainly proved to be a tremendous plot, filled with power and emotion. Jane has been Thor for three years now, and the tragedy of her story is building to a head. But, as effective as this story may be, it's also a flawed one. The fundamental problem is that Jane Foster is Marvel's best Thor, and there's no way the Odinson can take her place again.

It's not unusual for Mjolnir to be wielded by someone other than Thor Odinson. The enchanted hammer may not have survived long enough to be held by anyone other than Thor in the movies, but many other characters have picked it up in the comics. In fact, even Captain America's been able to heft Mjolnir on occasion. But only two of these Thors have really made a mark. The first is Beta Ray Bill, and the second is Jane Foster.

Where Beta Ray Bill is a powerful alien, Jane is remarkable precisely because of her humanity. She's an ordinary human being, one who has lived in the realm of gods, and yet now walks among them. Jane has been challenged every step of the way; the gods haven't taken kindly to the female Thor, and she's even wound up dueling Odin himself. Most remarkable of all, Jane's very humanity has allowed her to tap into Mjolnir in a way even the Odinson never has. She alone learned the secret of the God Storm that lies deep within Mjolnir, granting the hammer its incredible power. In Jane's hands, Mjolnir is no mere weapon; it is an ally in its own right.

Of course, the reality is that Jane's very humanity is what makes her worthy. She is worthy precisely because she knows the world needs a Thor, and is willing to pay the price to be one. Jane is well aware that her mortal body is dying. When she picked up Mjolnir that last time, she knew that it would cost her everything. This is what makes her a true hero; she knows the price, and she willingly pays it.



Only in my opinion to shit on it, when Thor had to come back and she became the new ( the Tessa Thompson Valkyrie only recently got added to the the comics proper ) Valkyrie.


----------



## Edd

Marvel still has a Black Widow film in the chamber. I’m thinking it’s probably good, which is why it hasn’t been released on Disney+ during the pandemic. Marvel wants their $1B in box office.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> The original series where you actually don't know for sure she became the new Thor was really good.  Then they revealed it was her, and the circumstances & it just put it in orbit.
> 
> The series ran for a bit, had great art & story, which ran to a conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: IF you want to know the circumstances & conclusion
> 
> 
> 
> https://screenrant.com/jane-foster-best-thor-death/
> Jane Foster's death in Marvel Comics has always seemed to be inevitable. Writer Jason Aaron's run has revealed that Jane is dying of cancer and worse still, every time she picks up Mjolnir and transforms into Thor, the effect of Jane's chemotherapy is reversed. The cancer is killing her, and Jane's frail human body cannot survive another transformation. Unfortunately, all this is set against the backdrop of the War of the Realms, and Jane has just picked up Mjolnir one last time in order to fight to save Asgard from Mangog.
> 
> This has certainly proved to be a tremendous plot, filled with power and emotion. Jane has been Thor for three years now, and the tragedy of her story is building to a head. But, as effective as this story may be, it's also a flawed one. The fundamental problem is that Jane Foster is Marvel's best Thor, and there's no way the Odinson can take her place again.
> 
> It's not unusual for Mjolnir to be wielded by someone other than Thor Odinson. The enchanted hammer may not have survived long enough to be held by anyone other than Thor in the movies, but many other characters have picked it up in the comics. In fact, even Captain America's been able to heft Mjolnir on occasion. But only two of these Thors have really made a mark. The first is Beta Ray Bill, and the second is Jane Foster.
> 
> Where Beta Ray Bill is a powerful alien, Jane is remarkable precisely because of her humanity. She's an ordinary human being, one who has lived in the realm of gods, and yet now walks among them. Jane has been challenged every step of the way; the gods haven't taken kindly to the female Thor, and she's even wound up dueling Odin himself. Most remarkable of all, Jane's very humanity has allowed her to tap into Mjolnir in a way even the Odinson never has. She alone learned the secret of the God Storm that lies deep within Mjolnir, granting the hammer its incredible power. In Jane's hands, Mjolnir is no mere weapon; it is an ally in its own right.
> 
> Of course, the reality is that Jane's very humanity is what makes her worthy. She is worthy precisely because she knows the world needs a Thor, and is willing to pay the price to be one. Jane is well aware that her mortal body is dying. When she picked up Mjolnir that last time, she knew that it would cost her everything. This is what makes her a true hero; she knows the price, and she willingly pays it.
> 
> 
> 
> Only in my opinion to shit on it, when Thor had to come back and she became the new ( the Tessa Thompson Valkyrie only recently got added to the the comics proper ) Valkyrie.



I’ll keep that spoiler in mind for review after I’ve seen the movie. Overall, I’ve been pleased with the MCU.


----------



## Edd

Huntn said:


> I’ll keep that spoiler in mind for review after I’ve seen the movie. Overall, I’ve been pleased with the MCU.



But are you watching WandaVision?


----------



## DT

Edd said:


> But are you watching WandaVision?














						Binge worthy TV
					

Anyone else watching The Watch? It's fabulous!




					talkedabout.com


----------



## Pumbaa

Edd said:


> But are you watching WandaVision?



I’m obviously not @Huntn but I’ll chime in anyways. 
Love it! The style is spot on. Can’t wait to see everything unravel!

I’m not so familiar with Wanda from an Avengers perspective, I mostly associate that Wanda with a fancy illustration (or maybe it was a comic book cover) from 



Spoiler: a 2004 crossover storyline



Avengers Disassembled


 and the quote 



Spoiler: from House of M



No more mutants


. Feels like WandaVision finally puts those in a context for me even if they won’t necessarily be transplanted into the MCU.


----------



## Edd

Pumbaa said:


> I’m obviously not @Huntn but I’ll chime in anyways.
> Love it! The style is spot on. Can’t wait to see everything unravel!
> 
> I’m not so familiar with Wanda from an Avengers perspective, I mostly associate that Wanda with a fancy illustration (or maybe it was a comic book cover) from
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: a 2004 crossover storyline
> 
> 
> 
> Avengers Disassembled
> 
> 
> and the quote
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: from House of M
> 
> 
> 
> No more mutants
> 
> 
> . Feels like WandaVision finally puts those in a context for me even if they won’t necessarily be transplanted into the MCU.



It’s pretty great, I agree. Watching YouTube vids covering each episode is helpful. There are so many Easter eggs to catch. This show is like Lost with how many questions need answering.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> I’ll keep that spoiler in mind for review after I’ve seen the movie. Overall, I’ve been pleased with the MCU.



I think you should keep that review in mind to possibly check out that work.



> Jane Foster as Thor: A Comic Book Primer
> 
> 
> Now that you've glimpsed her in action in the Thor: Love and Thunder trailer, here's where to start with Jane Foster's comic book history as the Mighty Thor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> io9.gizmodo.com




If you aren't interested in purchasing the books, remember that some libraries have very impressive comic book / graphic novel collections so you can check it out for free.

I'm not sure seeing how much they have to do in that one film, they could cover that major aspect of Jane Foster's life.  They've already got the "Asgardians of the Galaxy" to cover, Valkyrie looking for her queen in Asgard, if true Sif & Beta Ray Bill ( which could be another movie in of itself ), and oh yeah... Thor.  That's a lot to cover.


----------



## DT

JayMysteri0 said:


> If you aren't interested in purchasing the books, remember that some libraries have very impressive comic book / graphic novel collections so you can check it out for free.




**BOOM**





https://www.hoopladigital.com/title/12021003








https://www.hoopladigital.com/title/12650861


----------



## Huntn

*Captain Marvel *is one of my favorite newer Marvel characters to make into the MCU. The original movie story is superb and although she seems overpowered, she is powered by an Infinity Stone. I know some of you don’t like her or her performance, que sera. Gotta love the *Flerken*! 

I don’t know anything about Ms. Marvel, but will be watching on Disney+.

]

*Captain Marvel 2- * Projected 2022 release.
https://www.tor.com/2020/12/10/captain-marvel-2-release-date-ms-marvel-sizzle-reel/

*Ms. Marvel-* Projected Disney+ release 2021
https://www.marvel.com/characters/ms-marvel-kamala-khan/in-comics


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> *Captain Marvel *is one of my favorite newer Marvel characters to make into the MCU. The original movie story is superb and although she seems overpowered, she is powered by an Infinity Stone. I know some of you don’t like her or her performance, que sera. Gotta love the *Flerken*!
> 
> I don’t know anything about Ms. Marvel, but will be watching on Disney+.
> 
> View attachment 3697]
> 
> *Captain Marvel 2- * Projected 2022 release.
> https://www.tor.com/2020/12/10/captain-marvel-2-release-date-ms-marvel-sizzle-reel/
> 
> View attachment 3698*Ms. Marvel-* Projected Disney+ release 2021
> https://www.marvel.com/characters/ms-marvel-kamala-khan/in-comics



Oh yeah! The Flerken! Love! <3

That said, I enjoyed the first movie overall as well, and not just because of the Flerken. Looking forward to more and to see where they take the story. Maybe Carol will really go Rogue, who knows?

Ms. Marvel is completely new to me, but given the productions so far I will be watching the show and most likely will be liking it.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Personally, I'm really looking forward to Guardians of the Galaxy 3.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> *Captain Marvel *is one of my favorite newer Marvel characters to make into the MCU. The original movie story is superb and although she seems overpowered, she is powered by an Infinity Stone. I know some of you don’t like her or her performance, que sera. Gotta love the *Flerken*!
> 
> I don’t know anything about Ms. Marvel, but will be watching on Disney+.
> 
> View attachment 3697]
> 
> *Captain Marvel 2- * Projected 2022 release.
> https://www.tor.com/2020/12/10/captain-marvel-2-release-date-ms-marvel-sizzle-reel/
> 
> View attachment 3698*Ms. Marvel-* Projected Disney+ release 2021
> https://www.marvel.com/characters/ms-marvel-kamala-khan/in-comics





Pumbaa said:


> Oh yeah! The Flerken! Love! <3
> 
> That said, I enjoyed the first movie overall as well, and not just because of the Flerken. Looking forward to more and to see where they take the story. Maybe Carol will really go Rogue, who knows?
> 
> Ms. Marvel is completely new to me, but given the productions so far I will be watching the show and most likely will be liking it.



Ms. Marvel occupies a weird space in comics.

She was created during the Irv Perlmutter insisted drive that devalued the X-Men ( _because Fox had the rights to their movies_ ) and the Inhumans were pushed ( _badly & forcefully_ ) down the throats of the Marvel comic book fanbase.  A push that was soundly rejected and gave us that bad mini series.  Ms. Marvel's powers come from that Terrigen Mist that factors heavily into that story.  She was also created by a Muslim writer during Marvel comics push for diversity.

A diversity that didn't sit well with a certain majority of the comic book shop crowd.

They weren't interested in the book and Marvel's tendency to start a series to end it, to restart it with a new number #1 didn't help.

Fortunately though it wasn't the White male comic book shop fan that was needed.  Instead it was various persons buying Ms. Marvel in graphic novel form in book stores that made the book a very big hit.  Eventually that success translated into some comic book fans picking up the book, and the occasional speculator.  Kamala Khan hasn't had a 'Into the Spider Verse Movie' ( _Don't get me started on how annoyed I get with how they cobbled from Miles to make the Tom Holland Spider - Man_ ) to increase her visibility despite having the same acceptance issues Miles did with SOME fans.  Which would explain why many outside of comics aren't all that aware of Ms. Marvel.

If want to see a quick reason why she is liked so much, of all things a game is a great way to see.  Squenix made an Avengers game & got greedy trying to make it a season pass needed looter shooter, instead of it's intended single player / co op experience.  The game is boring as F, to me at least.  The designs bland, the gameplay repetitive.  The highlight?  How much the game makers embraced Kamala Khan's spirit as a Marvel fan girl, given the chance to be a super heroine herself.  Ms. Marvel is the game to me, and to many critics & other players.  The game really got her right and I think shows how much fun she can be in her series.





_The video unfortunately skips over her family life which is an important part of her character.  It's also it's own universe based on the comics._

Yes, Kamala Khan's logo on her shirt is a throwback to Carol's old Ms Marvel costume logo.  Another great touch.

Also what she means representation wise, can never be under stated.


----------



## Huntn

*April 2021: *Movie theaters seem to be open. Here is the latest list of upcoming  Marvel movies if this is accurate:








						Marvel’s Avengers Movies in Order - ListAfterList
					

See our comprehensive and update list of Marvel Avengers movies in the order in which they were released.



					listafterlist.com
				





Black Widow Movie (May 7, 2021)
Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (July 7, 2021)
The Eternals (November 5, 2021)
Spider-Man 3 (December 17, 2021)
Loki (2021)
Hawkeye (2021)
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier (2021)- Series on Disney+ now.
Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (March 25, 2022)
Thor – Love and Thunder (February 11, 2022)
Black Panther 2 (July 8, 2022)
She Hulk (2022)
Deadpool 3 (2022)
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 (2023)
Captain Marvel 2 (July 8, 2022)
Fantastic Four (2023)
Ant-Man 3 (2023)
Blade (2023)
Logan Spinoff (TBD)
MS Marvel (TBD)
Moon Night (TBD)
Nick Fury (TBD)
Gambit (TBD)


----------



## Huntn

*spoilers
Where is Gamora? Guardians of the Galaxy:*  After re-watching *Avengers:End Game.*









						'Avengers: Endgame' Deleted Scene Explains Where Gamora Goes Next
					

This new deleted scene from 'Avengers: Endgame' finally explains what happened to Gamora at the end of the movie and teases 'Guardians 4.'




					wmmr.com
				




During A:EG we see Gamora told by Nebula about her future including a future with both her sister and The Guardians which she had not yet experienced. And we see her come around offering to help Nebula and making a derogatory comment about Peter Quill. So where is she after the dust settles in End Game?

This article says when the movie disk was released (which I don’t own) it includes a deleted scene from the movie of Gamora walking away after the fight the one who never got a chance to develop a relationship with Peter Quill. And it speculates that this will be part of the plot in the next Chapter, Quill looking for her.

This fan video of deleted scenes shows 2 seconds of Gamora walking away:


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> *spoilers
> Guardians of the Galaxy:*  After re-watching *Avengers:End Game*, where is Gamora?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Avengers: Endgame' Deleted Scene Explains Where Gamora Goes Next
> 
> 
> This new deleted scene from 'Avengers: Endgame' finally explains what happened to Gamora at the end of the movie and teases 'Guardians 4.'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wmmr.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> During A:EG we see Gamora told by Nebula about her future including a future with both her sister and The Guardians which she had not yet experienced. And we see her come around offering to help Nebula and making a derogatory comment about Peter Quill. So where is she after the dust settles in End Game?
> 
> This article says when the movie disk was released (which I don’t own) it includes a deleted scene from the movie of Gamora walking away after the fight the one who never got a chance to develop a relationship with Peter Quill. And it speculates that this will be part of the plot in the next Chapter, Quill looking for her.



Yeah, they basically reset the relationship.

So Gamora went off on her own, and at the end of the movie with the "AsGuardians of the Galaxy" Quill is searching for her.  Since we have no idea how she left, since Thanos' fleet was seemingly dusted, who knows how she got off planet if she did.


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> *spoilers
> Guardians of the Galaxy:*  After re-watching *Avengers:End Game*, where is Gamora?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Avengers: Endgame' Deleted Scene Explains Where Gamora Goes Next
> 
> 
> This new deleted scene from 'Avengers: Endgame' finally explains what happened to Gamora at the end of the movie and teases 'Guardians 4.'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wmmr.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> During A:EG we see Gamora told by Nebula about her future including a future with both her sister and The Guardians which she had not yet experienced. And we see her come around offering to help Nebula and making a derogatory comment about Peter Quill. So where is she after the dust settles in End Game?
> 
> This article says when the movie disk was released (which I don’t own) it includes a deleted scene from the movie of Gamora walking away after the fight the one who never got a chance to develop a relationship with Peter Quill. And it speculates that this will be part of the plot in the next Chapter, Quill looking for her.



Yeah, I'll do you one better, who is Gamora?

Sounds like a plausible plot. On the other hand, with the Guardians of the Galaxy pretty much everything could be that. Looking forward to the next movie in any case.


----------



## Runs For Fun

Pumbaa said:


> Yeah, I'll do you one better, who is Gamora?



Why is Gamora?


----------



## Huntn

LOKI LIVES! 



June 11​

How, you ask, you saw him die again in End Game. Actually he might have died that time. Do you remember in End Game when Stark, Hulk, Ant Man, and Capt America go back to NYC to grab 3 Infinity Stones? And do you remember Hulk bursting from a stairway and knocking a briefcase carried by Stark, it pops open and out slides the Space Stone across the floor stopping at Loki’s feet (while he is in custody), and he disappears with it?






*Short Time Travel  Detour Gripe- *Famous Banner line: Time doesn’t work that way... Just forget Loki dissapearing, plus Stark and Capt America go further back to steal the Tesseract at an earlier tone from Stark’s Father. Don’t think how that would have scrambled the time line, lol! Just put it out of your pretty little head. 

Back on topic,  Loki disappearing during this trip back in time is his path forward. This Disney+ Series takes place after End Game.

https://www.marvel.com/tv-shows/loki/1


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> LOKI LIVES!
> 
> View attachment 4489
> June 11​
> 
> How, you ask, you saw him die again in End Game. Actually he might have died that time. Do you remember in End Game when Stark, Hulk, Ant Man, and Capt America go back to NYC to grab 3 Infinity Stones? And do you remember Hulk bursting from a stairway and knocking a briefcase carried by Stark, it pops open and out slides the Space Stone across the floor stopping at Loki’s feet (while he is in custody), and he disappears with it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Short Time Travel  Detour Gripe- *Famous Banner line: Time doesn’t work that way... Just forget Loki dissapearing, plus Stark and Capt America go further back to steal the Tesseract at an earlier tone from Stark’s Father. Don’t think how that would have scrambled the time line, lol! Just put it out of your pretty little head.
> 
> Back on topic,  Loki disappearing during this trip back in time is his path forward. This Disney+ Series takes place after End Game.
> 
> https://www.marvel.com/tv-shows/loki/1



Actually that is the point of the series, Loki "broke" time by picking up the tesseract.  So it is a continuation of Banner's line.  They may try to address SOME of the issues they caused with their version of time with the series. 

I'm not sure if it's Loki's path forward, but it is a chance to give the many Loki fans the "devious" version they prefer again.

Hopefully the pacing issues will be a little better than Falcon & Winter Soldier since it's 6 episodes as well.


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> Yeah, I'll do you one better, who is Gamora?
> 
> Sounds like a plausible plot. On the other hand, with the Guardians of the Galaxy pretty much everything could be that. Looking forward to the next movie in any case.



We witnessed a 2 movie arc where a romance developed between Quill and Gamora. This is an opportunity to change Gamora’s future into a split from the Quill/Gamora romance with many fans not wanting that. I remember this sensation from the original Spider-Man with Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson.


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> We witnessed a 2 movie arc where a romance developed between Quill and Gamora. This is an opportunity to change Gamora’s future into a split from the Quill/Gamora romance with many fans not wanting that. I remember this sensation from the original Spider-Man with Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson.



Many fans wants the dork to end up with the one who’s way out of the dork’s league. We want to feel like there is hope for us too. Preferably without getting bitten by radioactive spiders or abducted by aliens. Or maybe that’s just me.

That said, there is so much potential adventures to be had in the galaxy. No need to stay stuck in the past. Or maybe Gamora is in a way. Due to the time travel stuff she hasn’t lived the same life or had the same experiences that led to her being the woman who got involved with Quill and the Guardians. No guarantee she’ll turn out the same without those experiences.

Let’s hope the filmmakers create an entertaining movie where the characters act reasonably given their individual personalities, abilities, and perspectives, rather than forcing a romance down their throats.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> Actually that is the point of the series, Loki "broke" time by picking up the tesseract.  So it is a continuation of Banner's line.  They may try to address SOME of the issues they caused with their version of time with the series.
> 
> I'm not sure if it's Loki's path forward, but it is a chance to give the many Loki fans the "devious" version they prefer again.
> 
> Hopefully the pacing issues will be a little better than Falcon & Winter Soldier since it's 6 episodes as well.



Actually 3 teams of Avengers broke time by going back in time and changing so many events it might make your head spin if you try to think it out logically regarding the effect it would have had if we are talking about a single timeline.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> Actually 3 teams of Avengers broke time by going back in time and changing so many events it might make your head spin if you try to think it out logically regarding the effect it would have had if we are talking about a single timeline.



I believe the catch is that Cap supposedly did repair most things by going back to the time of those fracture / instances.

The Tesseract though would still be with Loki since Cap didn't know about it or even ever have it to replace it.  Making Loki the biggest break.

It's as known in Doctor Who circles "Timey Wimey".  It isn't as important to understand it, as it is to be entertained by the story possibilities it generates.

I think the lead to Doctor Strange is that single timelines aren't really a thing anymore.  DC Comics in their comics already embraces this, and basically EVERYTHING that ever happened in a DC comic did happen, even if it contradicts itself, because of multiple realities & time.


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> Many fans wants the dork to end up with the one who’s way out of the dork’s league. We want to feel like there is hope for us too. Preferably without getting bitten by radioactive spiders or abducted by aliens. Or maybe that’s just me.
> 
> That said, there is so much potential adventures to be had in the galaxy. No need to stay stuck in the past. Or maybe Gamora is in a way. Due to the time travel stuff she hasn’t lived the same life or had the same experiences that led to her being the woman who got involved with Quill and the Guardians. No guarantee she’ll turn out the same without those experiences.
> 
> Let’s hope the filmmakers create an entertaining movie where the characters act reasonably given their individual personalities, abilities, and perspectives, rather than forcing a romance down their throats.



We already know that Gamora hated her adopted father, that she was in the process of double crossing him when she first met Quill, and that she has ethics, her strong resolve that the Space Stone (if I have this  stone, labeled correctly ), had to go to Nova Corp for safe keeping. So there is a strong good in her character.

And we already saw an inkling of the original Gamora rapidly evolving towards the Gamora we know, primarily making amends with her sister from her future and allying herself with current Nebula during this fight. I’m not saying this means anything, other than we already have strong insight into her morals and character.


----------



## SuperMatt

Huntn said:


> We already know that Gamora hated her adopted father, that she was in the process of double crossing him when she first met Quill, and that she has ethics, her strong resolve that the Space Stone (if I have this  stone, labeled correctly ), had to go to Nova Corp for safe keeping. So there is a strong good in her character.
> 
> And we already saw an inkling of the original Gamora rapidly evolving towards the Gamora we know, primarily making amends with her sister from her future and allying herself with current Nebula during this fight. I’m not saying this means anything, other than we already have strong insight into her morals and character.



Every time you guys mention Gamora, this is my mental picture:


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> I believe the catch is that Cap supposedly did repair most things by going back to the time of those fracture / instances.
> 
> The Tesseract though would still be with Loki since Cap didn't know about it or even ever have it to replace it.  Making Loki the biggest break.
> 
> It's as known in Doctor Who circles "Timey Wimey".  It isn't as important to understand it, as it is to be entertained by the story possibilities it generates.
> 
> I think the lead to Doctor Strange is that single timelines aren't really a thing anymore.  DC Comics in their comics already embraces this, and basically EVERYTHING that ever happened in a DC comic did happen, even if it contradicts itself, because of multiple realities & time.



Here is the thing, time travel involves hard core paradoxes. There is no logical way to allow what the writers of End Game created  to make sense, unless you just accept what the story tells you. Putting the stones back later, still means that everything that happens after they are taken changes immediately and so many things would have changed the future they left, it may have been completely unrecognizable and at a minimum, there would be no time machine for them to return to.

Here is what I posted in the MR Time Paradox thread:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/favorite-time-travel-paradoxes.1846619/post-29770776

The Problem With End Game: As said before, the easiest solution is to accept what the story tell you. However, if you think about it, The Avengers under the guidance of Banner send 3 teams back in time to retrieve 6 Infinity Stones. As soon as the time line was disrupted by these stones being intercepted, there are three possibilities. 1) They split off time into a new timeline and could not return to their original time line. 2) If the premise is altering a single time line, there never would have been an Infinity War, and there would have been no reason to build a quantum tunnel (time machine) to go back in time to fetch stones.  Therefore the teams who went back in time, their future would have become their past, and they would have cut themselves off from returning to their former future, as the new future they created unfolds. 3) Now if the writers were clever enough, they might have concocted a story with a new future, where a quantum tunnel had been built for another reason giving the Avengers back in time, a route to return, but it would still not be the original future they left.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> Here is the thing, time travel involves hard core paradoxes. There is no logical way to allow what the writers of End Game created  to make sense, unless you just accept what the story tells you. Putting the stones back later, still means that everything that happens after they are taken changes immediately and so many things would have changed the future they left, it may have been completely unrecognizable and at a minimum, there would be no time machine for them to return to.
> 
> Here is what I posted in the MR Time Paradox thread:
> https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/favorite-time-travel-paradoxes.1846619/post-29770776
> 
> The Problem With End Game: As said before, the easiest solution is to accept what the story tell you. However, if you think about it, The Avengers under the guidance of Banner send 3 teams back in time to retrieve 6 Infinity Stones. As soon as the time line was disrupted by these stones being intercepted, there are three possibilities. 1) They split off time into a new timeline and could not return to their original time line. 2) If the premise is altering a single time line, there never would have been an Infinity War, and there would have been no reason to build a quantum tunnel (time machine) to go back in time to fetch stones.  Therefore the teams who went back in time, their future would have become their past, and they would have cut themselves off from returning to their former future, as the new future they created unfolds. 3) Now if the writers were clever enough, they might have concocted a story with a new future, where a quantum tunnel had been built for another reason giving the Avengers back in time, a route to return, but it would still not be the original future they left.



Which was their point of a sorts.

As you say time travel involves too many paradoxes, that I believe too many people try to explain.

My lazy theory based on that?  That there are just as many theories to time travel as there are paradoxes.  Stop thinking.  <- I forget what show embraced this approach as it literally could make a character go crazy dwelling on it.  None can be right, because someone will always make a case they are wrong.

They were like F' it.  Enjoy the ride.  Even the writers & directors don't agree on their own time travel.  The ride is the point, and this ride gained even more possibilities.



> Even Endgame's Writers & Directors Don't Agree How Time Travel Works
> 
> 
> Not even the team behind Avengers: Endgame is on the same page.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenrant.com





> The Russo brothers have a great working relationship with Markus and McFeely and are normally always on the same page when it comes to explaining what happens in their films. That is what makes this differing mindset all the more surprising, and somewhat confusing. The writers do admit that they aren't experts on time travel and that this is just their interpretation, but could it actually make sense for the MCU to have 2023 Steve Rogers around through all the events since around 1948?
> 
> Such an explanation would mean that _Avengers: Endgame_ is embracing the linear timeline with time loops explanation of time travel, where you aren't changing the past but enabling something that already did take place. This would potentially allow Steve to live a normal life for the last 80 years of the MCU that we've never seen, making him the husband that Peggy's referred to in the past but never named. This explanation also means that only changes to the Infinity Stones would create branched realities, while returning Mjolnir could be an expansion on this idea, and Cap going to the past doesn't create one because it already happened.





> After appearing to have clarity on what Steve's ending in *Avengers: Endgame* means, we are now back to square one with two competing explanations. Since both the Russo brothers and Markus and McFeely are done with the MCU for the time being, it may be left up to future MCU stories to actually explain what the in-canon explanation is, but the closing of Cap's story still works on an emotional level no matter what is decided.




I wouldn't be surprised if at some point we get ANOTHER theory on time travel.

To me, the only constant will be, that there is / was time travel.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> Which was their point of a sorts.
> 
> As you say time travel involves too many paradoxes, that I believe too many people try to explain.
> 
> My lazy theory based on that?  That there are just as many theories to time travel as there are paradoxes.  Stop thinking.  <- I forget what show embraced this approach as it literally could make a character go crazy dwelling on it.  None can be right, because someone will always make a case they are wrong.
> 
> They were like F' it.  Enjoy the ride.  Even the writers & directors don't agree on their own time travel.  The ride is the point, and this ride gained even more possibilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if at some point we get ANOTHER theory on time travel.
> 
> To me, the only constant will be, that there is / was time travel.



Here’s what bugs me when I allow it too, lol.  They actually try to explain it to the audience and then do exactly what Banner says that is not how time works.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> Here’s what bugs me when I allow it too, lol.  They actually try to explain it to the audience and then do exactly what Banner says that is not how time works.



Once again, it is a Marvel universe.

Does anyone REALLY know how time works, with all the variables added by a universe with space gods, sorcerers, mutants, and advanced science that is always in the hands of a ridiculously few?

Once the Fantastic Four & Reed Richards ( _which will be hinted at in the next Ant Man movie, with Kang the Conqueror_ ) are introduced, all bets will be off.


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> Here’s what bugs me when I allow it too, lol.  They actually try to explain it to the audience and then do exactly what Banner says that is not how time works.



Oh how it bugged me when they seemed to go against Banner’s explanation in the movie... Felt a bit better about it when I realized that while he is a smart dude his field of expertise isn’t exactly time travel. 

Maybe he was just Hulksplaining?


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Once again, it is a Marvel universe.
> 
> Does anyone REALLY know how time works, with all the variables added by a universe with space gods, sorcerers, mutants, and advanced science that is always in the hands of a ridiculously few?
> 
> Once the Fantastic Four & Reed Richards ( _which will be hinted at in the next Ant Man movie, with Kang the Conqueror_ ) are introduced, all bets will be off.



Based on every other attempt at a Fantastic 4 movie, perhaps Marvel should pretend they don’t exist. Otherwise, they might kill the entire MCU….


----------



## JayMysteri0

SuperMatt said:


> Based on every other attempt at a Fantastic 4 movie, perhaps Marvel should pretend they don’t exist. Otherwise, they might kill the entire MCU….



Feige won't care about the past, though they will do clever call backs probably.

I expect the FF will be more about the next phase of the Marvel Universe.  

About Falcon & the Winter Soldier ( No spoilers ) the latest episode is the story payoffs and I loved it.  I really wish they had at least one more episode so they hadn't sped thru so much, so there would have stronger emotional payoffs.

A spoiler:  There is a mid credit scene.


----------



## Edd

Relevant. 









						Marvel's Winter Soldier Success Barely Benefits His Comics Creators
					

Ed Brubaker, who resurrected Bucky Barnes alongside Steve Epting as Winter Soldier for the seminal 2005 Captain America comic series, has opened up about the ways Marvel Studios has mistreated him and fellow creatives in adapting their characters for the MCU.




					io9.gizmodo.com


----------



## Pumbaa

SuperMatt said:


> Based on every other attempt at a Fantastic 4 movie, perhaps Marvel should pretend they don’t exist. Otherwise, they might kill the entire MCU….



If they skip the traditional Fantastic 4 approach they’ll probably make a great addition to the MCU.

Just please please pretty please with a cherry on top please please *do not* make the movie be about the origin of the Fantastic 4, or about a Reed/Susan/Baddie of the movie love triangle. Flashbacks explaining the origins or referring to them is fine, but rehashing the origins is not enough to warrant a new movie. No point in retelling the same old story, move on folks!

With the success of the MCU, there must be good writers available nowadays who would be happy to write characters with depth even for a superhero movie. And there is no shortage of good actors either. Ben could be more than just a stupid thing, Susan more than a silly pretty girl, and Johnny more than an immature hothead. It is possible to have characters with some depth even with the comic book constraints in mind...


----------



## JayMysteri0

Edd said:


> Relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marvel's Winter Soldier Success Barely Benefits His Comics Creators
> 
> 
> Ed Brubaker, who resurrected Bucky Barnes alongside Steve Epting as Winter Soldier for the seminal 2005 Captain America comic series, has opened up about the ways Marvel Studios has mistreated him and fellow creatives in adapting their characters for the MCU.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> io9.gizmodo.com



Yeah, and no.

I've been reading that since his interview got traction.

Ed Brubaker unfortunately is in the shitty position of having created something that the MCU used to make more.  Ed worked under "work for hire", and knew it.  Unfortunately no one knew how big things would blow up.  Companies like Disney & Warner / AT & T see Marvel & DC as mines now to dig for content to exploit.  None of them care where it came from or how it was made, they just know that they legally own it.

Only when the companies get shamed do they do token payments.  They have improved with the credits, because fans watch & know the creators, and will kick & scream if creators aren't acknowledged.

As Brubaker acknowledges though, he's aware of what Jack Kirby went thru.  He knew that once his ideas were printed, they weren't HIS ideas anymore.  It's up to Disney if he gets anything, let alone how much.

I think what should be done is more attention should be drawn to his creator owned work, which SHOULD get it's own features from another studio where he would make the real money.



> Ed Brubaker
> 
> 
> Ed Brubaker is one of the most acclaimed writers in comics, winning five best writer Eisner and Harvey Awards in the last ten years. His bestselling work with Sean Phillips on CRIMINAL, INCOGNITO, FATALE, and THE FADE OUT has been translated around the world to great acclaim, and Marvel's movies…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> imagecomics.com




I LOVED this series, but unfortunately it has ties to properties that are now owned by DC Comics. 



> Sleeper (comics) - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Huntn

*The Falcon and Winter Soldier* has disappointed me by episode 3.
Posted at the other place...
Ep2- Falcon jumps on a USAF C-130 and flies to Germany to check out a terrorist group called Flag Smashers who wants things to return to the way they were during “the blip”. Bucky tags along and they discover Super Soldiers.

The new Captain America wants to work with F&WS but they tell him, that he has to get permission while they are free agents. Really? I’m not clear on what kind of relationship F&WS have with the US Govt.

What is Disney trying to pull?
Ep3- This seems expedited, short changed, the outline of a story ... Bucky breaks out Baron Zemo (Avengers: Civil War) from prison, he has his jet waiting, and they walk into a vipers pit, and the story goes down hill rapidly, at least imo. This abbreviated, rushed TV feel is really undermining the lead characters, maybe the franchise.

Think I’m out and I’m really disappointed with the content. Note, I happily made it through Wandavision.

https://www.wired.com/story/marvel-the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-all-wrong-for-tv/


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> Once again, it is a Marvel universe.
> 
> Does anyone REALLY know how time works, with all the variables added by a universe with space gods, sorcerers, mutants, and advanced science that is always in the hands of a ridiculously few?
> 
> Once the Fantastic Four & Reed Richards ( _which will be hinted at in the next Ant Man movie, with Kang the Conqueror_ ) are introduced, all bets will be off.



They apparantly take their audience to be fawning, star stuck, whatever you say boss fan boys and girls.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> *The Falcon and Winter Soldier* has disappointed me by episode 3.
> Posted at the other place...
> Ep2- Falcon jumps on a USAF C-130 and flies to Germany to check out a terrorist group called Flag Smashers who wants things to return to the way they were during “the blip”. Bucky tags along and they discover Super Soldiers.
> 
> The new Captain America wants to work with F&WS but they tell him, that he has to get permission while they are free agents. Really? I’m not clear on what kind of relationship F&WS have with the US Govt.
> 
> What is Disney trying to pull?
> Ep3- This seems expedited, short changed, the outline of a story ... Bucky breaks out Baron Zemo (Avengers: Civil War) from prison, he has his jet waiting, and they walk into a vipers pit, and the story goes down hill rapidly, at least imo. This abbreviated, rushed TV feel is really undermining the lead characters, maybe the franchise.
> 
> Think I’m out and I’m really disappointed with the content. Note, I happily made it through Wandavision.
> 
> https://www.wired.com/story/marvel-the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-all-wrong-for-tv/



I have to differ greatly, but I've already admitted my bias & love for the main 2 characters.  So I'm hardly critical. 

My biggest complaint is that they needed 1 more episode before the 5th.  The Zemo decision by Bucky gave me whiplash, but I realized that was necessity due to the episode count.  As well as the short changing of Sharon who has a legitimate gripe and a seeming major change, that we can't get really dive into well enough.  That will be played for cheap shock value, when it deserves more. Also the issues & emotional weight could have been so much more for Isiah Bradley with more time.

As I was explaining to a friend, the strength of these series is the variety.

Falcon & Winter Soldier is about the people after 'the snap' & 'the return', something the other more fantastic Marvel properties wouldn't have the time to deep dive into.  This is probably the most human of MCU properties, with the exception of Black Widow & the upcoming Hawkeye series.  Because of the shortness the series can't do the real deep dive of what it means to come back 5 years later, but to you it was just a few minutes ago.  For you when you go back to your home that you left this morning, only to find someone's been living there for the last few year & it's their home now.  This makes for the strangest set of refugees that are NOT one group of people from one country.  They are from everywhere and didn't have a thing to do with their sudden refugee status.

Those refugees are wide & varied and have returned to a taxed world that wasn't ready for their sudden unexpected return from nothing.

With the focus on Europe the refugee angle is a bit heavy handed.  Imagine if they did a Ted Cruz sort who went away snapped, and suddenly came back.  Such an entitled individual would demand everything back he once had, but the world's moved on.  Not a senator, maybe not married, no home, but now a refugee.  An individual that they would have previously looked down on, because they know it wouldn't happen to them. Until it did.  The upheaval to the Marvel universe's non super hero people is an endless source for stories.

The 5th episode really brings that home after it's great opening 15 minutes, and a cameo / character that had me howling.  Then it was about the people & the importance of a symbol.  Then it was 80s training montage & finally dealing with issues from the first episode.  The 5th episode is all about the emotional payoffs, because they won't have any time in the last episode as they really really really really just sped to the end set piece of the series.  I loved the return from the first episode of -

My other complaint...  NO therapist!  She NEEDS to be in every episode, even if it's only on the phone or Facetime.

DORA MILAJE!!! 





As I've said, Captain America: The Winter Soldier is my favorite MCU movie, and this series is a continuation.  I admit I am completely & happily biased.



Huntn said:


> They apparantly take their audience to be fawning, star stuck, whatever you say boss fan boys and girls.



You're finally getting it.


----------



## Edd

I was expecting a bit more flash/bang from episode 5 of Falcon/WS but after sleeping on it I’m happy with the episode.

The scene with Sam and Isiah was great stuff and I like Marvel wading into the racial waters. Younger people watch this content. It makes an impression.

Tangent: I was born in 1970. My values on racial matters came from TV. Sesame Street, Mr Rogers, Little House on the Prairie, All in the Family, Good Times, The Jeffersons, Barney Miller (underrated!), even Brady Bunch reruns tackled race. I took it all at face value and walked away convinced about what they were preaching. It stuns me that someone my age could watch the same shit (there was nothing else to watch!) and come away a racist.

On topic: I’ve read that, due to Covid, plot lines were dropped and the show didn’t turn out as intended. The surprise character here was intended to first be seen in Black Widow. The overall pacing of the show, and this episode in particular, feels off.

The Sam/Bucky stuff was great. John Walker, great. As long as they don’t shit the bed next week I’ll be happy with the show overall.


----------



## DT

JayMysteri0 said:


> I have to differ greatly, but I've already admitted my bias & love for the main 2 characters.  So I'm hardly critical.
> Also the issues & emotional weight could have been so much more for Isiah Bradley with more time.
> 
> 
> The 5th episode really brings that home after it's great opening 15 minutes, and a cameo / character that had me howling.  Then it was about the people & the importance of a symbol.  Then it was 80s training montage & finally dealing with issues from the first episode.  The 5th episode is all about the emotional payoffs, because they won't have any time in the last episode as they really really really really just sped to the end set piece of the series.  I loved the return from the first episode of -




Wow, E05 was fantastic.  Loved Sam's story, the boat, the people - I could use much more Isaiah Bradley, doesn't hurt that I _love_ Carl Lumbly (and he has great genre cred, love his voicework for animated JL stuff).  Zemo has to escape, hahaha, he's so great and terrible at the same time - maybe just a =dance= show 

That cameo, hahaha, I lost my shit and starting giggling with nerd-ish delight. Apparently they're in other MCU properties as well, that's as much as I'll say about the who and the what  

The scene with John in the warehouse, some of those tight shots, the shield, the blood, juxtaposed against the "perfect" model of Captain America, his blonde hair, blue eyes, just great stuff.

To be totally honest, I had forgotten the run was only 6 EPs, I had Wandavision in my head so I was sort of tracking 8-9.  Where the latter may be done, I could see them returning to TFatWS again, another short run as a bridge between theatrical events.


----------



## DT

Here's my problem with negative critique of time travel in the MCU:

If we agree on some time travel basic concepts, which includes a couple of variants of how it might work, nearly all the YT reviews I've seen __still__ get it wrong (I mean, I've written 1000s of words on the subject, built a timeline for Primer before most people had seen it, you know, that level of Nerd-dom, those YT-ers are late to the party ... )

But more importantly, people are arguing time travel and attempting to use some kind of real world reference points, in a universe, where, if we consider "real world" physics, etc., then ...

Where does Hulk's extra mass come from?  Is Thor's hammer creating gravimetric force to prevent being lifted?  If so, when extreme force is applied it should crush the - for example - table it's sitting on.  Cap's shield violates all sorts of rules of kinetic energy, rebound/elasticity/materials physics, even with the "_but Vibranium_ ..." explanation.  I'm not talking the suspension of disbelief over, "Can you really build a tiny arc reactor or repulsor cannons?", that's a given, it's their universe, I'm talking where there's clearly violation of actual real world science that people ignore, yet, will argue over the THEORETICAL science of time travel.

It kind of misses the point,  you can't have it both ways.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> I have to differ greatly, but I've already admitted my bias & love for the main 2 characters.  So I'm hardly critical.
> 
> My biggest complaint is that they needed 1 more episode before the 5th.  The Zemo decision by Bucky gave me whiplash, but I realized that was necessity due to the episode count.  As well as the short changing of Sharon who has a legitimate gripe and a seeming major change, that we can't get really dive into well enough.  That will be played for cheap shock value, when it deserves more. Also the issues & emotional weight could have been so much more for Isiah Bradley with more time.
> 
> As I was explaining to a friend, the strength of these series is the variety.
> 
> Falcon & Winter Soldier is about the people after 'the snap' & 'the return', something the other more fantastic Marvel properties wouldn't have the time to deep dive into.  This is probably the most human of MCU properties, with the exception of Black Widow & the upcoming Hawkeye series.  Because of the shortness the series can't do the real deep dive of what it means to come back 5 years later, but to you it was just a few minutes ago.  For you when you go back to your home that you left this morning, only to find someone's been living there for the last few year & it's their home now.  This makes for the strangest set of refugees that are NOT one group of people from one country.  They are from everywhere and didn't have a thing to do with their sudden refugee status.
> 
> Those refugees are wide & varied and have returned to a taxed world that wasn't ready for their sudden unexpected return from nothing.
> 
> With the focus on Europe the refugee angle is a bit heavy handed.  Imagine if they did a Ted Cruz sort who went away snapped, and suddenly came back.  Such an entitled individual would demand everything back he once had, but the world's moved on.  Not a senator, maybe not married, no home, but now a refugee.  An individual that they would have previously looked down on, because they know it wouldn't happen to them. Until it did.  The upheaval to the Marvel universe's non super hero people is an endless source for stories.
> 
> The 5th episode really brings that home after it's great opening 15 minutes, and a cameo / character that had me howling.  Then it was about the people & the importance of a symbol.  Then it was 80s training montage & finally dealing with issues from the first episode.  The 5th episode is all about the emotional payoffs, because they won't have any time in the last episode as they really really really really just sped to the end set piece of the series.  I loved the return from the first episode of -
> 
> My other complaint...  NO therapist!  She NEEDS to be in every episode, even if it's only on the phone or Facetime.
> 
> DORA MILAJE!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I've said, Captain America: The Winter Soldier is my favorite MCU movie, and this series is a continuation.  I admit I am completely & happily biased.
> 
> 
> You're finally getting it.



As someone vested in both characters, my observations are based on abbreviations, shortcuts, and short changing. And since I already complained about just 6 episodes and then someone else who has seen more than me, calls it slow, or wonders if they had enough material, and they had to fill out 6 episodes, and then horrid Ep3. Maybe this is Disney’s version of story telling on a budget.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> As someone vested in both characters, my observations are based on abbreviations, shortcuts, and short changing. And since I already complained about just 6 episodes and then someone else who has seen more than me, calls it slow, or wonders if they had enough material, and they had to fill out 6 episodes, and then horrid Ep3. Maybe this is Disney’s version of story telling on a budget.



I would strongly disagree with "they had to fill out 6 episodes".  If anything to me it's clear they wanted to do more than their 6 episodes allow.  Characters literally come & go, because there just isn't room for them across episodes.  So anyone not a main character is literally only in set episodes then completely gone, as opposed to organic story telling flowing through out.  It's almost like characters literally only exist to say their designated lines, then disappear with no life of their own.  It made for jarring jumps & pacing.

My biggest gripe is with Sharon Carter.  The big surprise with her to be revealed isn't earned.  It's a literally a surprise based on the show NOT giving you the clues to figure out her mystery, because there's seemingly no time.  Basically it won't be a surprise because your wildest guess is the only guess allowed by the show.

A friend did wonder if it's because of budget reasons that this & Loki are only 6 episodes.  All of the action stuff always happens in Europe, while the "people" stuff was shot in Atlanta.  That could well be what dictated their choices.

Side note:  I learned watching WandaVision on the DIsney+ app on my iPad Pro, that for me audio description was on by default for me.  The weird thing is that it turns out audio description & subtitles often give clues that you may not pick up on your own.  Some of the little easter eggs in the end credits of WandaVision with her energy, the audio description clearly spells out for you.

Seems the same thing MAY have happened with sub titles in Falcon & Winter Soldier.  A point that SOME of us may have missed ( I can't explain why without spoilers ) is given away by having subs on.



Spoiler: If you want to know...












						'Falcon and Winter Soldier' Subtitles Accidentally Reveal Major Plot Point | Inside the Magic
					

'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' accidentally revealed a major plot point involving Sharon Carter and Baroc in the Episode 5 subtitles.




					insidethemagic.net
				




Toward the end of “Truth”, _Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. _character Sharon Carter (Emily VanCamp) — who we encountered last week in Madripoor — was seen making a phone call that ended with, “I promise you won’t regret saying yes”. As ComicBook pointed out:



> _Shortly after Carter offers the caller double whatever their last price was, the captions signify it’s “Batroc speaking in French.”
> Fast forward a little bit and we see Batroc (Georges St-Pierre) meeting up with Karli Morgenthau (Erin Kellyman) and the rest of the Flag Smashers as they look to stop the Global Reparation Council from passing a new law detrimental to their cause. It’s here Batroc says he wants to kill Sam Wilson, apparently joining forces with the radical group._


----------



## Huntn

DT said:


> Here's my problem with negative critique of time travel in the MCU:
> 
> If we agree on some time travel basic concepts, which includes a couple of variants of how it might work, nearly all the YT reviews I've seen __still__ get it wrong (I mean, I've written 1000s of words on the subject, built a timeline for Primer before most people had seen it, you know, that level of Nerd-dom, those YT-ers are late to the party ... )
> 
> But more importantly, people are arguing time travel and attempting to use some kind of real world reference points, in a universe, where, if we consider "real world" physics, etc., then ...
> 
> Where does Hulk's extra mass come from?  Is Thor's hammer creating gravimetric force to prevent being lifted?  If so, when extreme force is applied it should crush the - for example - table it's sitting on.  Cap's shield violates all sorts of rules of kinetic energy, rebound/elasticity/materials physics, even with the "_but Vibranium_ ..." explanation.  I'm not talking the suspension of disbelief over, "Can you really build a tiny arc reactor or repulsor cannons?", that's a given, it's their universe, I'm talking where there's clearly violation of actual real world science that people ignore, yet, will argue over the THEORETICAL science of time travel.
> 
> It kind of misses the point,  you can't have it both ways.



Talking about this subject is fun. 

Thor’s hammer does not bother me because it is imbued with  _worthy magic._ Cap’s magically returning shield, it must be that vibrainium. 

This is what Banner should have said while looking into the camera,_ This is not my area of expertise, I don’t understand it, it does not make logical sense to us but in the quantum world, somehow it works._ Now maybe that might be passable, but the issue is still they are using the quantum realm just to travel to a different point in time. For everything else, time flows forward as we experience it

My impression, time is a flowing river. It has been proven that time passes at different rates based on relative motion, so we know that you can travel ahead in time relative to the earth if you travel close to the speed of light. Everything beyond that is conjecture, ok fine.

So if you have the mechanism to travel back in time, once you arrive in a point back in time, and you cause a ripple, you change something that is carried forward, most likely a bunch of things (butterfly effect).

So unless a reason can be produced other than magic  if all of the Infinity Stones were taken,  at that point in time the change immediately takes effect and all future time has been altered. No Infinity War, no time machine althouh a time machine might have been invented for another reason.  Bottom line they would have never gotten back to beat Thanos, because he was probably off doing other things because he could not find the stones.

And Capt America would not have had the opportunity, by virtue of being stuck in the past of putting the stones back at the exact moment they were taken. And by virtue of being stuck in the past, a whole new history would be created of them possessing the stones, and other creatures trying to find them.

Anyway for the time traveler who is relying on a time machine in the future to retrieve them, the real danger is that no one in the future is even aware that they went back in time and then there is the issue with the huge paradox of meeting yourself like Captain America did, because there is only one of you, which puts the entire ability to travel back in time doubtful.  No there are not 2 of you, so really this is a basis for declaring time travel backwards impossible

Now, one thing I like about HGWells, *The Time Machine* was that the time traveler was traveling to a point in time in the distant future (not the past) effecting the future as it happened, and he traveled so far forward that besides him disappearing from the time line, the minor changes he makes when he goes back, long enough to gathers some books and tools, the changes were trivial although I acknowledge that theoretically those minor changes could have changed time enough to make him lose the future he wanted to return to. Bottom line, this did not break my suspension of disbelief.

I also like the premise in the *Sound of Thunder* (movie) if I have the right story  back in time, someone steps off the path accidentally, where the future is messed up and they make multiple tries to try to get back to the future they left.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> I would strongly disagree with "they had to fill out 6 episodes".  If anything to me it's clear they wanted to do more than their 6 episodes allow.  Characters literally come & go, because there just isn't room for them across episodes.  So anyone not a main character is literally only in set episodes then completely gone, as opposed to organic story telling flowing through out.  It's almost like characters literally only exist to say their designated lines, then disappear with no life of their own.  *It made for jarring jumps & pacing.*
> 
> My biggest gripe is with Sharon Carter.  The big surprise with her to be revealed isn't earned.  It's a literally a surprise based on the show NOT giving you the clues to figure out her mystery, because there's seemingly no time.  Basically it won't be a surprise because your wildest guess is the only guess allowed by the show.
> 
> A friend did wonder if it's because of budget reasons that this & Loki are only 6 episodes.  All of the action stuff always happens in Europe, while the "people" stuff was shot in Atlanta.  That could well be what dictated their choices.
> 
> Side note:  I learned watching WandaVision on the DIsney+ app on my iPad Pro, that for me audio description was on by default for me.  The weird thing is that it turns out audio description & subtitles often give clues that you may not pick up on your own.  Some of the little easter eggs in the end credits of WandaVision with her energy, the audio description clearly spells out for you.
> 
> Seems the same thing MAY have happened with sub titles in Falcon & Winter Soldier.  A point that SOME of us may have missed ( I can't explain why without spoilers ) is given away by having subs on.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: If you want to know...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Falcon and Winter Soldier' Subtitles Accidentally Reveal Major Plot Point | Inside the Magic
> 
> 
> 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' accidentally revealed a major plot point involving Sharon Carter and Baroc in the Episode 5 subtitles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> insidethemagic.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toward the end of “Truth”, _Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. _character Sharon Carter (Emily VanCamp) — who we encountered last week in Madripoor — was seen making a phone call that ended with, “I promise you won’t regret saying yes”. As ComicBook pointed out:



*It made for jarring jumps & pacing.*
I agree, enough to ruin the story Imo. So they had too much stuff and had to basically short change the Story on that basis...

TV seasons used to be 30 episodes, then streaming and the standard drops to the 10-14 episode range. Now Disney is at 6 episodes which down to mini-series range. Why? $$ seems to be the kneejerk answer.


----------



## SuperMatt

DT said:


> Here's my problem with negative critique of time travel in the MCU:
> 
> If we agree on some time travel basic concepts, which includes a couple of variants of how it might work, nearly all the YT reviews I've seen __still__ get it wrong (I mean, I've written 1000s of words on the subject, built a timeline for Primer before most people had seen it, you know, that level of Nerd-dom, those YT-ers are late to the party ... )
> 
> But more importantly, people are arguing time travel and attempting to use some kind of real world reference points, in a universe, where, if we consider "real world" physics, etc., then ...
> 
> Where does Hulk's extra mass come from?  Is Thor's hammer creating gravimetric force to prevent being lifted?  If so, when extreme force is applied it should crush the - for example - table it's sitting on.  Cap's shield violates all sorts of rules of kinetic energy, rebound/elasticity/materials physics, even with the "_but Vibranium_ ..." explanation.  I'm not talking the suspension of disbelief over, "Can you really build a tiny arc reactor or repulsor cannons?", that's a given, it's their universe, I'm talking where there's clearly violation of actual real world science that people ignore, yet, will argue over the THEORETICAL science of time travel.
> 
> It kind of misses the point,  you can't have it both ways.



Exactly. So, they are willing to accept that there is a magic gauntlet that, when you stick in a bunch of colored gems, has the power to wipe out half of all life in the universe, but time travel inconsistencies are where they decided to get picky?


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> *It made for jarring jumps & pacing.*
> I agree, enough to ruin the story Imo. So they had too much stuff and had to basically short change the Story on that basis...
> 
> TV seasons used to be 30 episodes, then streaming and the standard drops to the 10-14 episode range. Now Disney is at 6 episodes which down to mini-series range. Why? $$ seems to be the kneejerk answer.



I believe the short episode season model is based on the model we got from the likes of the BBC.

6 - 10 episodes to reduce filler & cost.

Netflix took it to 10 - 13 episodes, and still suffers from the Netflix mid season curse of 3 boring middle episodes.

Why Disney went with 6 for Falcon & Loki I have no clue.  The one time I remember Feige being asked this he put it to episode length.  WandaVision episodes were usually 30 minutes, while ALL of Falcon & Loki episodes are around 50 minutes.  So cost could very well be a large factor in their decisions.  The interesting thing will be from onwards with second seasons, do they stick with this formula?


----------



## Huntn

SuperMatt said:


> Exactly. So, they are willing to accept that there is a magic gauntlet that, when you stick in a bunch of colored gems, has the power to wipe out half of all life in the universe, but time travel inconsistencies are where they decided to get picky?



The infinity stones and the gauntlet are firmly anchored  in the magic realm, technology so advanced, alien, primal, or deity discards,  that you can use whatever premise you want and it makes a good story. W With Dr. Strange’s Time Stone, time can be slewed back and forth. With the Reality Sone, reality can be altered, no problem unless someone bad decides to abuse this power.

But time is something real,  and time travel forward through relativity has been proven, so there is a basis to critique. And  although there are tons  of theories about the effect of traveling backwards, although as far as I know there is zero scientific basis to make the claim it is possible. So maybe traveling back in time is akin to magic, but because there time travel forward there is somewhat of a basis for critiquing such a story.


----------



## Huntn

I coined Marvel’s Infinity Stone Saga (at least here )  and describe it as one of the monumental feats in movie making history to tie 15 or so movies from the same intellectual ecosystem all leading to an explosive climax *Avengers: End Game*. Planned from the start!  Uh... well it’s still monumental but apparantly there was no master plan for this from when the first Infinity Stone appeared in *Captain America: The First Avenger*. Not even right after. SHOCKING. 

Marvel's Infinity Stones plan was far less planned than we thought​








						Marvel didn't know the Infinity Stones plan when they were introduced in the MCU
					

You don't need to know it all to make it work.




					www.digitalspy.com
				




_From the moment Thanos appeared at the end of The Avengers, it seemed as though the Marvel Cinematic Universe was building to the epic Infinity War/Endgame conclusion.

Key to it all was the gradual introduction of the Infinity Stones – renamed from the Infinity Gems in the comics – across the subsequent movies, before Thanos gathered them all together to devastating effect in Avengers: Infinity War. It seemed like such interconnected storytelling that it had to be planned out from the very beginning, but it turns out that was just not the case.

During James Gunn's recent live tweeting of Guardians of the Galaxy, he revealed that the only thing he was asked to include in the first movie was a cameo from Thanos and "an origin for the Infinity Stones".

This led to the scene on Knowhere when the Collector (Benicio Del Toro) explains where the Infinity Stones come from to Star-Lord (Chris Pratt) and co:

"Before creation itself, there were six singularities. Then the universe exploded into existence, and the remnants of these systems were forged into concentrated ingots... Infinity Stones.
"These stones, it seems, can only be brandished by beings of extraordinary strength... These carriers can use the stone to mow down entire civilisations like wheat in a field."

So, sure, Marvel might not have known what the origins of the Infinity Stones were in the MCU, but it clearly knew how important they were and that they'd eventually lead to Thanos using their destructive power, right?

Nope. 
Gunn was then asked whether it was a "big responsibility" to come up with an origin for something that would prove so crucial to the MCU's future.
"We didn't know at that time it was going to be as big a deal as it turned out to be," he replied, later adding in response to what he knew of the future plans for them: "Everything: There were none at that time."_


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> *It made for jarring jumps & pacing.*
> I agree, enough to ruin the story Imo. So they had too much stuff and had to basically short change the Story on that basis...
> 
> TV seasons used to be 30 episodes, then streaming and the standard drops to the 10-14 episode range. Now Disney is at 6 episodes which down to mini-series range. Why? $$ seems to be the kneejerk answer.



Separately.

You have to let know when you do / if you watch episodes 4 & on.

I say that because in episode #4 an important decision is made that takes us further into comic book lore, but was also an important plot point.  Revolving around Zemo's beliefs & predictions.  It also informs Sam's place in the Marvel universe.   I ask & mention this because of a review I was reading.  I won't link to it as it has spoilers, but I will quote the part that I think stands out.



> But Sam’s storyline and character arc certainly didn’t have the kind of easy gaps where one could wonder what he was doing in his downtime. Unlike Steve’s re-entry into the modern world, and Bucky’s time being deprogrammed in Wakanda, Sam’s story has lain fallow in the MCU. He seemed somewhat un-mysterious: He’s not a man out of time, he doesn’t have superpowers, he doesn’t feel like an abandoned rich boy like Tony did. He was born human and he’s determined to stay so. The part of him that is intriguing is what this show explored—his goodness, his trustworthiness, his anchor-like quality to the people around him. How he actually feels about the people around him, despite his fierce loyalty. And of course, what is must be like to be a Black man surrounded by white men who are given so much license to do whatever the hell they want—more so than usual, because they had those superpowers, those gadgets, the money he doesn’t have.




It made me do a quick think.  In the MCU proper ( meaning NOT Sony, Fox, Netflix, or earlier movies ) what Black men or women have powers & interact?  It's just Black Panther, a king who is given super human abilities by birthright.  Sam is literally a guy in a flying suit that was stolen from the military by Captain America & Black Widow, then later upgraded with Stark tech.  Sam IS the regular guy along Hawkeye.  Unlike Hawkeye though, Sam doesn't have issues about whether or not he belongs or if he is a hero of sorts.  He just wonders whether he should carry on *another* hero's legacy.***

Later if you keep that in mind, it really hammers home Isiah Bradley, and what it means for another Black man to have actually super powers in the MCU who isn't a king.

Which I think informs Sam's decisions later on, and his place in the MCU & perhaps him becoming his own ideal.

There is a small scene in 5 that seems to be of importance to me that I want to point out, but I will wait until you see it to mention it.

For anyone who has seen it, this is the really super small scene that spoke to me



Spoiler: Huntn do NOT read yet, until you watch episode #5



Sarah's kids playing with the  .  I wondered if that was a concept they could imagine, not because of few if anyone get to actually touch it, but that THEY for who they are get to touch it.  I may have read more into it, but seeing the look on Sam's face when he sees them, made me think of it's importance.



I get it that I'm more excited by the series than you are, I easily forgive it's issues, because I've enjoyed the few payoffs it's delivered.

Luke Cage on Netflix made obvious sense with it's dive into Black culture, it's literally the other main character.  I didn't think it would play as much a part as it does in The Falcon & the Winter Soldier.

*** _We will revisit this point at series end, depending on how it shakes out.  I could be completely wrong.  It's my belief the gov't shows it's contempt in believing that Captain America is like a Power Ranger, to be replaced when a series ends.  Steve Rogers was Captain America.  The world knows Steve Rogers is Captain America.  Steve Rogers is the guy that gave the stirring speeches, NOT Captain America.  There is only ONE Captain America, and it isn't a role it's Steve Rogers.  At least to me that is._





_The look on Tony's face & Rocket's realization says it all about Steve Rogers / Captain America._


----------



## JayMysteri0

An update on the character I alluded to episode #5 of Falcon & Winter Soldier.

I of course geeked out for WHO played the part, as well as the character themselves.  

If you aren't aware of their history, someone was nice enough to do the write up explaining.  It's exhausting...   



Spoiler: IF you have not seen Falcon & Winter Soldier #5, DO NOT OPEN!!!












						That Surprise Falcon and the Winter Soldier Character Explained
					

"Truth," this week's penultimate episode of Disney+'s Falcon and the Winter Soldier, introduced a major cameo in guest star Julia Louis-Dreyfus. Her character has some major links to a lot of Marvel Comics history—and even more to the future of the MCU.




					io9.gizmodo.com


----------



## JayMysteri0

Guess you better finish Falcon...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1385694538606563330/

I'm betting this was the strategy.  Test out ideas on a smaller budget.  If successful you've already made a built in audience for your project, and get big budget Marvel movie money, THEN show it on Disney+.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> Guess you better finish Falcon...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1385694538606563330/
> 
> I'm betting this was the strategy.  Test out ideas on a smaller budget.  If successful you've already made a built in audience for your project, and get big budget Marvel movie money, THEN show it on Disney+.



Will the new Captain America be Wyatt Russel in the movie? I miss Chris Evans already.


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> Will the new Captain America be Wyatt Russel in the movie? I miss Chris Evans already.



I think that would be as likely as Hurtfan endorsing Biden.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> Will the new Captain America be Wyatt Russel in the movie? I miss Chris Evans already.



Have you finished Falcon & Winter Soldier, because it does show you at the end?

I don't want to spoil it if you haven't finished it yet.  Not like those yutzes @ MR.


----------



## DT

No dammit, I was NOT tearing up during that museum scene ... allergies, or onions, or something ...


----------



## DT

BTW, loved the ending and the whole series.  Solid A- for me, and Wanda Vision I enjoyed, but it's definitely more of a B/B- for me, heck WV could've been a little tighter, lost of EP, and TFATWS could've used another EP.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> Have you finished Falcon & Winter Soldier, because it does show you at the end?
> 
> I don't want to spoil it if you haven't finished it yet.  Not like those yutzes @ MR.



I stopped watching it. Ok, I’ll finish it, it’s only 3 more episodes, which may help with  future movies and maybe even change my mind about the series.  If you recall the critique involved pacing and short changing which in the past I have described as outline story telling.

From Game of Thrones: The  3 minute battle, or just substitute a statement: _there was a battle between the good and bad guys and the bad guys won..._


----------



## JayMysteri0

You may want to finish it, as Marvel is basically using the TV shows to set up the next slate of films.

If you don't want to see it though, I imagine they will do a "Marvel Legends" episode explaining what happened in the series, sometime in the future.

As I said before, I'm completely biased.  Falcon & Bucky are two of my favorite MCU characters, and what alluded to addressing were subjects of interest to me.  I just wished they had one more episode & "stones" to actually address some of the issues they raised.

Interesting notes I hadn't realized that have been mentioned.  The gov't guy that talks to John Walker & Sam, supposedly isn't referred to by name in the series.  Also the word "racism" is actually not mentioned.  I have to go back & watch again to see if that is true.  I saw those things in a couple of reviews of the series. 

Spoiler:  Needs more therapist, but I get why she isn't in more episodes.


----------



## JayMysteri0

I'm really hoping this is fan made bullshit, but I wouldn't be surprised if isn't.  One of my biggest gripes is how they handled Sharon Carter in the Falcon & the Winter Soldier series.

Note:  If you have NOT watched the series, this article is spoilers.



> Captain America 4 Villain And Carter Rumors | Barside Buzz
> 
> 
> According to the folks of That Hashtag Show, the Captain America 4 villain will be Sin. The outlet also claims original plans had Sharon Carter, aka The
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lrmonline.com


----------



## Huntn

*Loki* (Disney +)- Gearing to watch this when there are 3 episodes to watch (6 total). I’m a bit concerned about the plot of Loki being in trouble with the Temporal Authority because he stole the Tesseract  during End Game. And, oh yeah, he’s not dead again.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> *Loki* (Disney +)- Gearing to watch this when there are 3 episodes to watch (6 total). I’m a bit concerned about the plot of Loki being in trouble with the Temporal Authority because he stole the Tesseract  during End Game. And, oh yeah, he’s not dead again.



That's because he didn't die.  

THAT version of Loki of course is NOT the version in Thor: The Dark World. 

So the version of Loki in the series is NOT the Loki who began a redemptive arc there, then die later on.  So this Loki hasn't died or even faked his death before.


----------



## Huntn

*The Eternals* (Nov21)- A must see if you are into the MCU.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> That's because he didn't die.
> 
> THAT version of Loki of course is NOT the version in Thor: The Dark World.
> 
> So the version of Loki in the series is NOT the Loki who began a redemptive arc there, then die later on.  So this Loki hasn't died or even faked his death before.



Marvel wants its cake and eat it too or at least it wants it’s audience not to notice It’s inconsistent handling of time travel paradoxes.


----------



## Edd

Huntn said:


> Marvel wants its cake and eat it too or at least it wants it’s audience not to notice It’s inconsistent handling of time travel paradoxes.



Not to say Marvel is perfectly consistent with time travel but the instance of Loki being plucked out of time from the first Avengers film for the Loki series story is pretty straightforward.


----------



## Pumbaa

Edd said:


> Not to say Marvel is perfectly consistent with time travel but the instance of



Time travel necessary in order to read this post?


----------



## Huntn

Edd said:


> Not to say Marvel is perfectly consistent with time travel but the instance of Loki being plucked out of time from the first Avengers film for the Loki series story is pretty straightforward.



Sure that is straight forward, [change the past, branches you off into a new time line]. Yet this standard is not adhered to in End Game, hence my comment about the audience not noticing or I guess, not caring.

Even when Dr Banner  tells the Avengers _time does not work that way, change the past and your old present _(now a future) _ is now “your” past, _because you are split from it. He says this and yet 3 teams of Avengers go back and change time multiple times, hell just by going back they have changed time and yet they all return to the coherent future they left with a time machine waiting for them, which by this standard no longer exists for them because they are branched into a new time line with a different future.

Think about this, using the branching time line theory, if the writers were clever enough, they would have had to write a whole new story about Thanos trying to acquire all of the Infinity stones that have been hijacked by 6 time traveling Avengers. Then the story would follow the branched time line theory, except for one thing, 3 teams traveling back in time woukd have split themselves off the time line into at least 3 separate time lines, making this too difficult to follow as a narrative.

And if you argue that the single time line is easier to follow, as soon as they went back in time and took Infinity Stones their old future is erased, altered. Unless there was a coincidence for another reason to cause a time machine to be built to receive them they would have been stuck in the past and if an Infinity War happened, it would be under different circumstances.

Clear?


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> Sure that is straight forward, [change the past, branches you off into a new time line].



Exactly. But you don’t have to stick to this new timeline when traveling back to the future.



Huntn said:


> Yet this standard is not adhered to in End Game, hence my comment about the audience.  Even when Dr Bannon tells the Avengers _time does not work that way, change the past and your old present _(now a future) _ is now “your” past, _because you are split from it. He says this and yet 3 teams of Avengers go back and change time multiple times, hell just by going back they have changed time and yet they all return to the coherent future they left with a time machine waiting for them, which by this standard no longer exists for them because they are branched into a new time line with a different future.



Ah, that’s your problem. Listen to Banner, not Bannon.

You can’t change your timeline by going into the past is what he’s saying. Any changes you do go into a new timeline while the past of your original timeline is unchanged. Since the timeline you departed from hasn’t changed, returning to it unchanged using a decent time machine isn’t a problem.

Old Cap on the other hand is a harder sell…



Huntn said:


> Think about this, using the branching time line theory, if the writers were clever enough, they would have had to write a whole new story about Thanos trying to acquire all of the Infinity stones that have been hijacked by 6 time traveling Avengers. Then the story would follow the branched time line theory, except for one thing, 3 teams traveling back in time woukd have split themselves off the time line into at least 3 separate time lines, making this too difficult to follow as a narrative.



Unnecessary as the stones were returned to the branches they were borrowed from immediately from the point of view of those branches. And we don’t get to see what happens in the future of those branches anyway as it is not relevant to the story being told.

Edit: Ok, except kind of for the branch Thanos travels from, but that’s part of the story being told.



Huntn said:


> And if you argue that the single time line is easier to follow, as soon as they went back in time and took Infinity Stones their old future is erased, altered. Unless there was a coincidence for another reason to cause a time machine to be built to receive them they would have been stuck in the past and if an Infinity War happened, it would be under different circumstances.
> 
> Clear?



It’s abundantly clear that there is not a single timeline, so…

Edit: Your problem with the MCU time travel might be that you seem stuck at looking at MCU timelines like single lines that can only be traversed forwards and backwards. Given the right powers/equipment it is also possible to jump between lines.


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> *The Eternals* (Nov21)- A must see if you are into the MCU.





That shot of Arishem the Judge made me tingle in my naughty bits ...


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> Exactly. But you don’t have to stick to this new timeline when traveling back to the future.
> 
> 
> Ah, that’s your problem. Listen to Banner, not Bannon.
> 
> You can’t change your timeline by going into the past is what he’s saying. Any changes you do go into a new timeline while the past of your original timeline is unchanged. Since the timeline you departed from hasn’t changed, returning to it unchanged using a decent time machine isn’t a problem.
> 
> Old Cap on the other hand is a harder sell…
> 
> 
> Unnecessary as the stones were returned to the branches they were borrowed from immediately from the point of view of those branches. And we don’t get to see what happens in the future of those branches anyway as it is not relevant to the story being told.
> 
> 
> It’s abundantly clear that there is not a single timeline, so…



The only thing I’ll concede is Banner. 

Regarding time travel, there is either one or branching time lines to operate in.
For single timeline as in Infinity War- As I recall there is no mention of the time machine designed to cross over to different time lines. Therefore, you go to the past and steal an Infinity Stone, you immediately changed the future you came from. Most likely there would be no time machine to return to because Infinity War could not have happened, Thanos would not have the Infinitch Stone you took, and arguable the future is changed so, there would have been no reason to build a time machine.
Splitting time lines as in Loki- Go back in time, change the past splits you off into a branching time line*. Unless there is a mechanism that allows crossing from one time line to another, you can’t return to fix whatever that needs fixing. Now I will admit, in Loki it was ingenious to create the time authority to allow just this but it does not apply to the tech Banner used In End Game.
* Altough Loki did not go back in time, but stealing the Tesseract (when the past was returned to by Avengers) split him off for some vague reason, as in “it was not meant to be” ha ha.


----------



## DT

@Huntn

Part of your problem with the time travel is you're thinking of it like a single linear representation where you slide back and forth on a line, i.e.

Past ---------------- Present [me]

*time travel occurs*

Past [me] ---------------- Present

When you use the model above, it looks like the former present is your future, it's not, it's your past, it immutable because it has already occured, when you back to to your present, it's in your past, because it's a single continuous curved line (so to speak).


----------



## JayMysteri0

DT said:


> That shot of Arishem the Judge made me tingle in my naughty bits ...



I'm still kind of 'meh' on the Eternals.

I realize it was out of Marvel's hands, but I would have wanted a FF movie long before they got to the Eternals.  Eternals seems like where you get to, not help start the next MCU phase.

I'm also still petitioning for a Project Pegasus movie.  My idea is make it Marvel's Die Hard movie, where bad guys invade the base for it's tech, and there's that one random guy they don't expect.  My random guy pick?  Doc Samson.  "I'm just the psychiatrist on call here". As he punches someone thru a wall.


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> The only thing I’ll concede is Banner.



It’s a start. You’ll get the rest in time.



Huntn said:


> Regarding time travel, there is either one or branching time lines to operate in.



According to what they say and show, it is branching timelines.



Huntn said:


> For single timeline as in Infinity War- As I recall there is no mention of the time machine designed to cross over to different time lines. Therefore, you go to the past and steal an Infinity Stone, you immediately changed the future you came from. Most likely there would be no time machine to return to because Infinity War could not have happened, Thanos would not have the Infinitch Stone you took, and arguable the future is changed so, there would have been no reason to build a time machine.



It is not a single timeline. They pretty explicitly mention that you don’t change the future you came from (since that’s your past).



Huntn said:


> Splitting time lines as in Loki- Go back in time, change the past splits you off into a branching time line. Unless there is a mechanism that allows crossing from one time line to another, you can’t return to fix whatever that needs fixing. Now I will admit, in Loki it was ingenious to create the time authority to allow just this but it does not apply to the tech Banner used In End Game.



Why doesn’t it apply to the Endgame tech?


----------



## Huntn

DT said:


> @Huntn
> 
> Part of your problem with the time travel is you're thinking of it like a single linear representation where you slide back and forth on a line, i.e.
> 
> Past ---------------- Present [me]
> 
> *time travel occurs*
> 
> Past [me] ---------------- Present
> 
> When you use the model above, it looks like the former present is your future, it's not, it's your past, it immutable because it has already occured, when you back to to your present, it's in your past, because it's a single continuous curved line (so to speak).



I’ve already said this and Banner said it, go to the past, and the present you left becomes your past. Although it might look like your future, it’s your past, you can’t return to it. Btw, no anger here, it’s just a discussion.


----------



## DT

JayMysteri0 said:


> I'm still kind of 'meh' on the Eternals.
> 
> I realize it was out of Marvel's hands, but I would have wanted a FF movie long before they got to the Eternals.  Eternals seems like where you get to, not help start the next MCU phase.
> 
> I'm also still petitioning for a Project Pegasus movie.  My idea is make it Marvel's Die Hard movie, where bad guys invade the base for it's tech, and there's that one random guy they don't expect.  My random guy pick?  Doc Samson.  "I'm just the psychiatrist on call here". As he punches someone thru a wall.




It does seem a little "big", I mean, I get that they're trying to out Thanos the next phase, but a FF movie would've totally made better sense.  Maybe they'll do a big setup, like this is how the universe actually works, there are entities much more powerful than anything you've encountered ... here's a peek, but we won't get back to this until the next Spiderman, Thor, GotG and hopefully a GOOD GODDAM FF MOVIE 

I kind of get the difficulty with the FF, especially in the context of the universe being Iron Man and Captain America, and villains like Hydra, but I think the time it right, we've seen there's shit way beyond what we thought, and even that in context of the "Eternals universe" seems small.

I need me some Doctor Doom, we've got Kang semi-established, Galactus?  Annihilus?

Side note:  is there any way to do stretching powers that won't look silly ...   

Is some of the Project Pegasus storyline part of the new Sam Jackson / Skrulls / Secret Invasion series?  I do like keeping some things dialed back, into more "terrestrial" type adventures (it's one reason I probably enjoyed Black Widow more than some other folks).


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> I’ve already said this and Banner said it, go to the past, and the present you left becomes your past. Although it might look like your future, it’s your past, you can’t return to it. Btw, no anger here, it’s just a discussion.



You’ve tried to say it but have not understood it.

Yes, the present you left becomes your past, immutable, even if it looks like it is the future of where you are in the past. Anything changed just goes into a different timeline.

But the future of the present you left is still there, unwritten and possible to return to. You can even bring stuff with you to that unwritten future from the past, but nothing you did will have changed the past of what you return to, what happened before you left.

As for the tech part, view it as a return from a subroutine (back to continue writing the future of your old present), not a goto $timestamp (the future of your branches timeline).


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> It’s a start. You’ll get the rest in time.
> 
> 
> According to what they say and show, it is branching timelines.
> 
> 
> It is not a single timeline. They pretty explicitly mention that you don’t change the future you came from (since that’s your past).
> 
> 
> Why doesn’t it apply to the Endgame tech?




_“It is not a single timeline. They pretty explicitly mention that you don’t change the future you came from (since that’s your past).”_

They  say this but then they treat it as a single time line, otherwise there would be no bringing back infinity stones to the future the Avengers  left to retrieve them. And in the new time line they are in, events would have to happen all over again and in a different way.

There no mention of Banner’s time machine being able to access different time lines, and if there was, there was no visual or narrative effort on the writers part to show that any difference when entering a different/ parallel time line, unless in Marvel’s branching time lines, everything happens exactly the same way.


----------



## JayMysteri0

DT said:


> It does seem a little "big", I mean, I get that they're trying to out Thanos the next phase, but a FF movie would've totally made better sense.  Maybe they'll do a big setup, like this is how the universe actually works, there are entities much more powerful than anything you've encountered ... here's a peek, but we won't get back to this until the next Spiderman, Thor, GotG and hopefully a GOOD GODDAM FF MOVIE
> 
> I kind of get the difficulty with the FF, especially in the context of the universe being Iron Man and Captain America, and villains like Hydra, but I think the time it right, we've seen there's shit way beyond what we thought, and even that in context of the "Eternals universe" seems small.
> 
> I need me some Doctor Doom, we've got Kang semi-established, Galactus?  Annihilus?
> 
> Side note:  is there any way to do stretching powers that won't look silly ...
> 
> Is some of the Project Pegasus storyline part of the new Sam Jackson / Skrulls / Secret Invasion series?  I do like keeping some things dialed back, into more "terrestrial" type adventures (it's one reason I probably enjoyed Black Widow more than some other folks).



With the FF movie, it's Irv Perlmutter and his tiny pecker that was the problem.  Fox owned FF at the time & wanted to keep trying to F up doing a FF movie.  Out of spite Perlmutter declared the FF & of sorts the X Men persona non grata.  So there was no chance of there being a FF movie, until the acquisition.  Which means Marvel's choice for group / team movies were slim.  They tried to force feed the Inhumans, and hopefully you didn't see how bad that went.

FF should be the anchor of the new phase of MCU, especially with the quantum realm heavily involved.  It just screams there needs to be stories about the Negative verse done as well.

Project Pegasus was an old Marvel story where the Thing got a job as security for this super high tech facility that dealt with all kinds of Marvel energy and dimensional stuff.  The version intro'd in Capt Marvel is a very tame version of it.  I imagine more like if Marvel wanted to do the Eureka Syfy series.  They dealt with crazy stuff.  They had Quasar who had cosmic bands as their security guy, it was out there & fun for the time.



> Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S. (Earth-616)
> 
> 
> Project Pegasus (Potential Energy Group/Alternate Sources/United States) is a scientific base. Project: Pegasus was originally intended to research alternative (and unusual) forms of energy, but has also been used as a prison for super-powered individuals. The facility is located in the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> marvel.fandom.com





> Project Pegasus (*P*otential *E*nergy *G*roup/*A*lternate *S*ources/*U*nited *S*tates) is a scientific base. Project: Pegasus was originally intended to research alternative (and unusual) forms of energy, but has also been used as a prison for super-powered individuals. The facility is located in the Adirondack Mountains in New York.[_citation needed_]
> 
> Several heroes have served terms working security at the facility, including the Thing and Quasar. At one time it also served as a temporary home for the Squadron Supreme when they were exiled from their own universe.[_citation needed_]




I just brought a digital copy of the Thing / Marvel Two in One collection of it from Comixology on sale Friday.  So it's running thru my brain.


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> You’ve tried to say it but have not understood it.
> 
> Yes, the present you left becomes your past, immutable, even if it looks like it is the future of where you are in the past. Anything changed just goes into a different timeline.
> 
> But the future of the present you left is still there, unwritten and possible to return to. You can even bring stuff with you to that unwritten future from the past, but nothing you did will have changed the past of what you return to, what happened before you left.
> 
> As for the tech part, view it as a return from a subroutine (back to continue writing the future of your old present), not a goto $timestamp (the future of your branches timeline).












						Favorite Time Travel Paradoxes
					

It's not an anomaly, a conundrum, or a fallacy, it's a PARADOX!  For time travel stories, my impression is that despite the different names, they all involve inconsistent causal loops, unless the multiverse is introduced. The difficult part of time travel paradoxes is to think out of all of the...




					talkedabout.com
				




This is all science fiction.  However, based on all the popular theories expressed about time travel paradoxes, and what effect time travel would have, the only possible way to return to a future in your time line, would be via a single time line. Once split timelines are introduced, time travel to the past splits yourself off from your original time line.

In Loki  for narrative convenience, Marvel  introduces the The Time Authority where though magic jumping around between time lines is no big deal. In Loki I can accept this for the sake of the story, but I am unaware of any time travel paradoxes that describe being able to jump around into different timelines.

I don’t remember Banner specifically saying his time machine allowed the time travelers to cross from one time line to another. Did he?


----------



## DT

JayMysteri0 said:


> Project Pegasus was an old Marvel story where the Thing got a job as security for this super high tech facility that dealt with all kinds of Marvel energy and dimensional stuff.  The version intro'd in Capt Marvel is a very tame version of it.  I imagine more like if Marvel wanted to do the Eureka Syfy series.  They dealt with crazy stuff.  They had Quasar who had cosmic bands as their security guy, it was out there & fun for the time.
> 
> 
> I just brought a digital copy of the Thing / Marvel Two in One collection of it from Comixology on sale Friday.  So it's running thru my brain.




OMG, hahaha, that sounds pretty fun.  In addition to having (like reading/owning/up-in-the-attic) a good bit of the Byrne FF run (my favorite bit was making Sue Storm a badass ...) I have a ton of Marvel 2-in-1, I got most of those from a garage sale, just always loved The Thing + <whoever>


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> _“It is not a single timeline. They pretty explicitly mention that you don’t change the future you came from (since that’s your past).”_
> 
> They  say this but then they treat it as a single time line, otherwise there would be no bringing back infinity stones to the future the Avengers  left to retrieve them. And in the new time line they are in, events would have to happen all over again and in a different way.



Except they most certainly don’t treat it as a single timeline. If they had, they would have just gone back and stopped Thanos. Instead we got Endgame with multiple timelines that makes bringing stuff to the future consistent with how they say it works. Things happen in a different way in the branched timelines and nothing in the time traveler‘s past is changed.



Huntn said:


> There no mention of Banner’s time machine being able to access different time lines, and if there was, there was no visual or narrative effort on the writers part to show that any difference when entering a different/ parallel time line, unless in Marvel’s branching time lines, everything happens exactly the same way.



Why would there need to be a mention of that? It kind of follows from the way they say time travel works. The other timelines we get to see in Endgame are in the past of the main timeline we followed, they don’t branch off until the Avengers go back to them, of course everything happens exactly the same way until that point since that’s what they went back to.

Let’s say the Banner-Stark Time Machine works like this:

You can go to any location and any point in time in any timeline.
It may not be explicitly mentioned, but it is as far as I know also not contradicted by anything explicitly mentioned so far. Awesome, suddenly almost everything in Endgame works flawlessly!

Plausible constraints could be that one needs to be able to navigate this infinite set of spacetime coordinates. Maybe the primitive navigation system of the Banner-Stark Time Machine only allows travel to:

Any point (timeline + location + time) previously navigated to/from.
Any point (location + time) in the past of the same timeline. (Immediately branches off to a new timeline upon arrival)
That would be a reason not to mention the machine’s ability to cross between timelines as they lack the more sophisticated navigation tech the TVA got, while allowing the Avengers to visit the past, return to the main timeline they started out from and to return the borrowed infinity stones to the correct timelines.



Huntn said:


> Favorite Time Travel Paradoxes
> 
> 
> It's not an anomaly, a conundrum, or a fallacy, it's a PARADOX!  For time travel stories, my impression is that despite the different names, they all involve inconsistent causal loops, unless the multiverse is introduced. The difficult part of time travel paradoxes is to think out of all of the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> talkedabout.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is all science fiction.  However, based on all the popular theories expressed about time travel paradoxes, and what effect time travel would have, the only possible way to return to a future in your time line, would be via a single time line. Once split timelines are introduced, time travel to the past splits yourself off from your original time line. In Loki  for narrative convenience, Marvel  introduces the The Time Authority where though magic jumping around between time lines is no big deal. In Loki I can accept this for the sake of the story, but I am unaware of any time travel paradoxes that describe being able to jump around into different timelines.



So instead of basing the MCU time travel on what they say and do in the MCU, you are trying to force the MCU time travel to fit other theories?

No, it is not magic jumping in Loki, just technology. If you accept that the TVA can do it, you have to accept that others in the MCU could potentially do it as well.


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> Except they most certainly don’t treat it as a single timeline. If they had, they would have just gone back and stopped Thanos. Instead we got Endgame with multiple timelines that makes bringing stuff to the future consistent with how they say it works. Things happen in a different way in the branched timelines and nothing in the time traveler‘s past is changed.
> 
> 
> Why would there need to be a mention of that? It kind of follows from the way they say time travel works. The other timelines we get to see in Endgame are in the past of the main timeline we followed, they don’t branch off until the Avengers go back to them, of course everything happens exactly the same way until that point since that’s what they went back to.
> 
> Let’s say the Banner-Stark Time Machine works like this:
> 
> You can go to any location and any point in time in any timeline.
> It may not be explicitly mentioned, but it is as far as I know also not contradicted by anything explicitly mentioned so far. Awesome, suddenly almost everything in Endgame works flawlessly!
> 
> Plausible constraints could be that one needs to be able to navigate this infinite set of spacetime coordinates. Maybe the primitive navigation system of the Banner-Stark Time Machine only allows travel to:
> 
> Any point (timeline + location + time) previously navigated to/from.
> Any point (location + time) in the past of the same timeline. (Immediately branches off to a new timeline upon arrival)
> That would be a reason not to mention the machine’s ability to cross between timelines as they lack the more sophisticated navigation tech the TVA got, while allowing the Avengers to visit the past, return to the main timeline they started out from and to return the borrowed infinity stones to the correct timelines.
> 
> 
> So instead of basing the MCU time travel on what they say and do in the MCU, you are trying to force the MCU time travel to fit other theories?
> 
> No, it is not magic jumping in Loki, just technology. If you accept that the TVA can do it, you have to accept that others in the MCU could potentially do it as well.



Sorry, Loki specifically addresses it, the Time Variance Authority sits out in an unknown space, zero description of how it works, where these people exist, in essence magic. Travel to any ole time line, I’m good with that.

End Game is supposedly within the realm of what humans can discover. Banner never says _we’ll be creating multiple branching time lines and this time machine will pull you back to this time line._ So I see two choices they are dealing with a single time line, or branching time lines. And without being able to cross time lines, traveling back in time won’t solve the issue they face in End Game. Now if somewhere in MCU cannon it is states that Banner’s Time Machine can send travelers to other time lines, I’d be good with that. 

One other issue, if going back and stealing an Infinity Zone  splits off the time line, why did Captain America have to bother with going back and put them back just when they were taken? Who cares what happens in those other time lines, they would have zero effect on your time line. Or is the idea   that putting them back at the right moment would erase those  branching time lines that have already been created? I thought what was done in the past can’t be undone without branching off into another split timeline.   

I accept your disagreement and have stated my case as best I can. .


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> Sorry, Loki specifically addresses it, the Time Variance Authority sits out in an unknown space, zero description of how it works, where these people exist, in essence magic. Travel to any ole time line, I’m good with that.
> 
> End Game is supposedly within the realm of what humans can discover. Banner never says _we’ll be creating multiple branching time lines and this time machine will pull you back to this time line._ So I see two choices they are dealing with a single time line, or branching time lines. And without being able to cross time lines, traveling back in time won’t solve the issue they face in End Game. Now if somewhere in MCU cannon it is states that Banner’s Time Machine can send travelers to other time lines, I’d be good with that.



Addresses what? Keep in mind who created the TVA and why it was created.

Banner never says that because it doesn’t make any sense to say that there. The burning question that needed to be answered in that Endgame scene was why they couldn’t just go back in time and stop Thanos in the past to change the present.

Let’s face it, there are two options:

The Banner-Stark Time Machine _can_ cross between timelines. Then practically everything works in Endgame, and it is consistent with what they say there and how it works in Loki.
The Banner-Stark Time Machine _cannot_ cross between timelines. Then practically nothing works in Endgame, and it is not consistent with what they say there or how it works in Loki.
I prefer the option that makes things work smoothly and is not explicitly contradicted by MCU.
You prefer the option that makes things not work and is not explicitly supported by MCU.

You want MCU canon? How about this? In Endgame, when Banner negotiates with The Ancient One:

_— So tell me, doctor, can your science prevent all that?
— No … but we can erase it. Because once we’re done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken._

Let’s see where the future movies take us.

Edit to include your edit:



Huntn said:


> One other issue, if going back and stealing an Infinity Zone  splits off the time line, why did Captain America have to bother with going back and put them back just when they were taken? Who cares what happens in those other time lines, they would have zero effect on your time line. Or is the idea   that putting them back at the right moment would erase those  branching time lines that have already been created? I thought what was done in the past can’t be undone without branching off into another split timeline.



The Avengers are supposedly heroes. As such, they could care about the other realities and try to avoid messing them up after The Ancient One educated them about the consequences of completely removing an infinity stone. Or they could care enough to honor the deal struck by Banner in order to get the time stone. Decent people, you know.

You seem to be confused about what the past is. The past that can‘t be changed is your past, you can‘t go back and change that. But if you go back in time and create a new branch, the future of that branch isn’t your past, even if it from a date/time point of view happens before your present, or whatever it’s called. So going back and returning an infinity stone the moment it disappeared is just continuing the unwritten future of that branch. Trying to return it to before it disappeared on the other hand would cause branching since it changes something that already happened.


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> Addresses what? Keep in mind who created the TVA and why it was created.
> 
> Banner never says that because it doesn’t make any sense to say that there. The burning question that needed to be answered in that Endgame scene was why they couldn’t just go back in time and stop Thanos in the past to change the present.
> 
> Let’s face it, there are two options:
> 
> The Banner-Stark Time Machine _can_ cross between timelines. Then practically everything works in Endgame, and it is consistent with what they say there and how it works in Loki.
> The Banner-Stark Time Machine _cannot_ cross between timelines. Then practically nothing works in Endgame, and it is not consistent with what they say there or how it works in Loki.
> I prefer the option that makes things work smoothly and is not explicitly contradicted by MCU.
> You prefer the option that makes things not work and is not explicitly supported by MCU.
> 
> You want MCU canon? How about this? In Endgame, when Banner negotiates with The Ancient One:
> 
> _— So tell me, doctor, can your science prevent all that?
> — No … but we can erase it. Because once we’re done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken._
> 
> Let’s see where the future movies take us.




_The Banner-Stark Time Machine cannot cross between timelines. Then practically nothing works in Endgame, and it is not consistent with what they say there or how it works in Loki._
By the act of stealing an Infinity Stone, Loki creates a new time line for whatever vague reason as in _"it was not meant to be". _.  In the Branching timeline theory of time travel, every time you changed something in the past including just showing up, you have branched off a new timeline. You just don't get to skip back to your original time line, it's now your past, unless you have clever writers who decided that the Time Variance Authority can jump around as they please. Sure it's simple and easy to understand, and consequently I don't put a lot of thought into it, but I enjoyed it and accepted this premise, just don't think about it. 

_Banner: — No … but we can erase it. Because once we’re done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken._

Except he can't erase it. For branching time lines it's as if he is saying that putting back Infinity Stones would put everything back as it was, except it would not, not when they have decided there are branching time lines, triggered by going back in time. A new  branch into a new time line is created every time a traveler travels to their past. That is my issue with branching timelines and Endgame,  but I'll give Banner credit for saying "time lines". 

So Captain America went back and put Infinity Stones back at the right moment to fix something or just make the Ancient one happy? Putting an Infinity Stone back would split the time line once again. And  if you want to entertain the idea of time travel backwards, there  is a decent argument that people could not be dragging objects back and forth across time lines, but it's not worth arguing about. The basis of this is that the past is past, and that changing the past would break you off into a new timeline, and there is no way you could return to your old time line because that is now your past, unless time travel  to the past is reduced to "whatever".

Look, I'll just have to disagree with you. I do admit that every time travel story I watch includes a paradox. But some stories I can over look the paradox and others I can't. End game is one of the movies I can't overlook, mostly because they took the time to explain it to the audience and then ignored what they said.


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> Now if somewhere in MCU cannon it is states that Banner’s Time Machine can send travelers to other time lines, I’d be good with that.



Banner said it. It’s MCU canon. Case closed.



Huntn said:


> You just don't get to skip back to your original time line, it's now your past, unless you have clever writers who decided that the Time Variance Authority can jump around as they please.



The part of your original timeline after you left, ie its future, is not your past.



Huntn said:


> Except he can't erase it. For branching time lines it's as if he is saying that putting back Infinity Stones would put everything back as it was, except it would not, not when they have decided there are branching time lines, triggered by going back in time. A new branch into a new time line is created every time a traveler travels to their past. That is my issue with branching timelines and Endgame, but I'll give Banner credit for saying "time lines".



Putting the infinity stones back the moment they disappeared was to erase the future where they are without said infinity stones, not to reverse the whole adventure. A new branch is created when every time a traveler travels to their past, not every time a traveler travels to the past. Same as with the original timeline, the part of the branch after you left it is not your past. Thus, returning the stones is possible without further branching.



Huntn said:


> Look, I'll just have to disagree with you. I do admit that every time travel I watch includes a paradox. But some stories I can over look the paradox and others I can't. End game is one of the movies I can't overlook, mostly because they took the time to explain it and then ignored what they said.



Except that they did not ignore what they said, you are…  You are actively inventing your own paradox to dislike.

Ah, well, as I said earlier, let’s see where the future movies take us. Not getting any further here.


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> Banner said it. It’s MCU canon. Case closed.
> 
> 
> The part of your original timeline after you left, ie its future, is not your past.
> 
> 
> Putting the infinity stones back the moment they disappeared was to erase the future where they are without said infinity stones, not to reverse the whole adventure. A new branch is created when every time a traveler travels to their past, not every time a traveler travels to the past. Same as with the original timeline, the part of the branch after you left it is not your past. Thus, returning the stones is possible without further branching.
> 
> 
> Except that they did not ignore what they said, you are…  *You are actively inventing your own paradox to dislike.*
> 
> Ah, well, as I said earlier, let’s see where the future movies take us. *Not getting any further here.*



By your quote Banner mentioned timelines, but did not address complications of branching timelines.
No I’m not Inventing anything. Marvel is ignoring the complications of branching timelines.
Yep…


----------



## Pumbaa

Huntn said:


> By your quote Banner mentioned timelines, but did not address complications of branching timelines.
> No I’m not Inventing anything. Marvel is ignoring the complications of branching timelines.
> Yep…



You said you’d be good with it if it was stated somewhere in MCU canon that “Banner’s Time Machine” could send travelers to other timelines.

In Endgame, Banner said that the Avengers could “r_eturn each [stone] to its own timeline at the moment it was taken”._ That should cover the machine’s MCU canon ability to send travelers to other timelines and is in line with a branching model.

You obviously want your paradox and have made up your mind. No point in continuing this. You are (un)happy with your theory that pretty much doesn’t explain anything. Good for you!

I’m happy with my theory that explains virtually all observations from MCU canon. If new observations need explaining, or if I encounter another theory that explains more or relies on fewer assumptions while still explaining much, I’m open to adapting or replacing my theory. Would be happy to!

This phase is going to get rough. Really looking forward to all the new movies and shows. We might even get a passable FF!


----------



## JayMysteri0

I've been waiting for this...






It seems to be partly based on this series.  Which if you have NOT read before, do yourself a favor and read.






I'm not sure how many versions of this I own ( it's been reprinted a lot ) but it's worth it.  Some incredibly clever story telling & art, and to me it's the definitive Hawkeye.


----------



## DT

JayMysteri0 said:


> I've been waiting for this...
> 
> It seems to be partly based on this series.  Which if you have NOT read before, do yourself a favor and read.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how many versions of this I own ( it's been reprinted a lot ) but it's worth it.  Some incredibly clever story telling & art, and to me it's the definitive Hawkeye.




People are constantly recommending that creative teams run, this might mean I finally have to track it down (assuming it's compiled into some GNs and/or digital).


----------



## DT

Oh wow, hahaha, that trailer is great!  That's tonally / action level / scope-scale perfect.


----------



## JayMysteri0

DT said:


> People are constantly recommending that creative teams run, this might mean I finally have to track it down (assuming it's compiled into some GNs and/or digital).



The collected compendium digitally is $25.  With the Hawkeye series on the way, you know the physical copy will jump unrealistically.



> Amazon.com: Hawkeye by Matt Fraction and David Aja (Hawkeye (2012-2015)) eBook : Fraction, Matt, Aja, David, Pulido, Javier, Hamm, Jesse, Lieber, Steve, Francavilla, Francesco, Wu, Annie, Davis, Alan, Aja, David, Aja, David, Pulido, Javier, Hamm, Jes
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Hawkeye by Matt Fraction and David Aja (Hawkeye (2012-2015)) eBook : Fraction, Matt, Aja, David, Pulido, Javier, Hamm, Jesse, Lieber, Steve, Francavilla, Francesco, Wu, Annie, Davis, Alan, Aja, David, Aja, David, Pulido, Javier, Hamm, Jesse, Lieber, Steve, Francavilla, Francesco, Wu...
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com




When I got the series I got it when it was broken into 6 issue collected graphic novels.  The whole series going 22 issues I believe.









I got my physical copies by hitting cons on Sunday afternoons and scouring dealers $5 graphic novel bins.  I'm guessing that will no longer be an option.  If you don't want to spend any money before trying it out, I do recommend hitting the library or the app some libraries use Hoopla.



> https://www.hoopladigital.com


----------



## DT

OMG, hahaha, the Hawkeye results ...





Sweet, I just put Vol 1-4 into my faves in Hoopla (I'll wait to checkout when I know I'll have time to read).


----------



## Huntn

Pumbaa said:


> You said you’d be good with it if it was stated somewhere in MCU canon that “Banner’s Time Machine” could send travelers to other timelines.
> 
> In Endgame, Banner said that the Avengers could “r_eturn each [stone] to its own timeline at the moment it was taken”._ That should cover the machine’s MCU canon ability to send travelers to other timelines and is in line with a branching model.
> 
> You obviously want your paradox and have made up your mind. No point in continuing this. You are (un)happy with your theory that pretty much doesn’t explain anything. Good for you!
> 
> I’m happy with my theory that explains virtually all observations from MCU canon. If new observations need explaining, or if I encounter another theory that explains more or relies on fewer assumptions while still explaining much, I’m open to adapting or replacing my theory. Would be happy to!
> 
> This phase is going to get rough. Really looking forward to all the new movies and shows. We might even get a passable FF!





I’m still watching Marvel movies. 

But I can be picky about my time paradoxes, and I told you I can accept some and critique others.

Yes, Banner mentions putting stones back in their own time lines but the story glosses  over what branching time lines actually means, because in the realm of time travel paradoxes, yes it’s all hypothetical,  yet when the writer selects a branching time line related to time travel to tell the story, it means that traveling to a previous time creates a new time line to preserve the old time line, there is a barrier there. And imo instead of trying to make the explanation sound scientific, just call it magic. That’s why I don’t question Dr Strange when he creates a time  portal, that’s mystical.


----------



## Alli

My head hurts. Why do we have to analyze something that isn’t possible (yet)?


----------



## Pumbaa

Alli said:


> My head hurts. Why do we have to analyze something that isn’t possible (yet)?


----------



## JayMysteri0

For @Huntn , if you have trouble with Marvel's time travel, how about...?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1463187858638868481/


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> For @Huntn , if you have trouble with Marvel's time travel, how about...?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1463187858638868481/



Lol.  My position is that Thanos chose to use  snapping his fingers as the mechanism he chose to execute his desire and control of over all of the stones. However it has been shown on more than one occasion that most powerful items in the universe required no gauntlet to function, but in the MCU, and intermediate device must shield the user. According to this article the stones function differently in the comics, they were less powerful in the comics, and harder to use: 









						Marvel's Infinity Stones Don't Work Like You Think
					

The Infinity Stones work differently in the comics




					screenrant.com
				




In the MCU: 
_The Collector explains that the stones can only be brandished by beings of extraordinary strength, telling the story of a group who were able to share the power of one stone momentarily before being destroyed by its power._

In the Comic:
characters like Black Widow and even Kingpin underling Turk Barretthold and use their stones with no ill effects.

New stones in the comics:
_These stones worked by new rules, with each powered by the mastery of a primordial force characterized by another stone. For example, mastery of the Power Stone depended on the user's personal mastery of the mind, while the Mind Stone was powered by the user's mastery of the soul. This meant that, individually, the stones were only as powerful as their wielder's specific skillset, though together they still formed a positive feedback loop that would grant the user infinite power._


----------



## Huntn

I’ll be very disappointed if Dave Bautista does not return in Guardians of the Galaxy 3.









						Marvel announces Bautista's successor as Drax to be fellow WWE alum Mason Ryan
					

Did you know that, before he garnered critical and popular acclaim for his portrayal of Drax the Destroyer, Dave Bautista was a professional wrestler with World Wrestling Entertainment!  Well it turns out that, although Bautista plans to retire from the role, the makers of Marvel’s Guardians of...




					www.kayfabenews.com
				





​


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> I’ll be very disappointed if Dave Bautista does not return in Guardians of the Galaxy 3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marvel announces Bautista's successor as Drax to be fellow WWE alum Mason Ryan
> 
> 
> Did you know that, before he garnered critical and popular acclaim for his portrayal of Drax the Destroyer, Dave Bautista was a professional wrestler with World Wrestling Entertainment!  Well it turns out that, although Bautista plans to retire from the role, the makers of Marvel’s Guardians of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kayfabenews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 10344​



I would take that article with an enormous grain of salt.  

There's been a number of click bait articles on actors being replaced.  Some like this, others like discussing the actors who played popular characters in 'What if' as replacements for current actors.



> New Captain Marvel Actress Speaks Out After the MCU Replaced Brie Larson - Inside the Magic
> 
> 
> The MCU's new Captain Marvel, Alexandra Daniels, has spoken out taking on the role of the iconic superhero
> 
> 
> 
> 
> insidethemagic.net




Unitl Marvel announces something, I'd take most what you read as speculation for views.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> I would take that article with an enormous grain of salt.
> 
> There's been a number of click bait articles on actors being replaced.  Some like this, others like discussing the actors who played popular characters in 'What if' as replacements for current actors.
> 
> 
> 
> Unitl Marvel announces something, I'd take most what you read as speculation for views.



It says “Marvel announced”.  I also like Brie Larson…


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> It says “Marvel announced”.  I also like Brie Larson…



You mean like this article says in Sept of this year?



> Marvel's New Drax Finally Speaks Out After Replacing Dave Bautista - Inside the Magic
> 
> 
> Marvel recently recast Dave Bautista's Drax the Destroyer, and now the new actor is speaking out on taking on the iconic role
> 
> 
> 
> 
> insidethemagic.net




Their title says announced, but their own pic uses a question mark.

It's clickbait.  I've never seen a formal announcement about anything Guardians related past the third movie.  Like we've done in the political sections, if you can find another article confirming, I'd still take that with boulder sized grains of salt.



> The definition of "kayfabe"
> 
> (in professional wrestling) the fact or convention of presenting staged performances as genuine or authentic.
> "a masterful job of blending kayfabe and reality"




If you're a wrestling fan, that word tells you all you need to know.  Especially if you can't find another source to back that one up.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> You mean like this article says in Sept of this year?
> 
> 
> 
> Their title says announced, but their own pic uses a question mark.
> 
> It's clickbait.  I've never seen a formal announcement about anything Guardians related past the third movie.  Like we've done in the political sections, if you can find another article confirming, I'd still take that with boulder sized grains of salt.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're a wrestling fan, that word tells you all you need to know.  Especially if you can't find another source to back that one up.



Those manipulative bastards!


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> Those manipulative bastards!







Not the intenetz & pro rasslin'?!!!


----------



## JayMysteri0

The post is right, this is a great time to see this again.
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1473033883562262530/


----------



## Edd

JayMysteri0 said:


> You mean like this article says in Sept of this year?
> 
> 
> 
> Their title says announced, but their own pic uses a question mark.
> 
> It's clickbait.  I've never seen a formal announcement about anything Guardians related past the third movie.  Like we've done in the political sections, if you can find another article confirming, I'd still take that with boulder sized grains of salt.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're a wrestling fan, that word tells you all you need to know.  Especially if you can't find another source to back that one up.



Dave Bautista is confirmed for GOTG 3, and Thor: Love and Thunder.


----------



## Huntn

*Shang-Chi and the Legend of Ten Rings* (2021)- Good story, outstanding martial arts in the Multi-verse. 

Direct tie-in to *Dr Strange and The Multiverse of Madness* (2022 est)








						Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (Movie, 2022) | Director, Cast, Release Date | Marvel
					

Marvel Studios’ DOCTOR STRANGE IN THE MULTIVERSE OF MADNESS stars Benedict Cumberbatch and Elizabeth Olsen. Directed by Sam Raimi. In theaters May 6, 2022.




					www.marvel.com
				











						Is Shang-Chi in Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness?
					

Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings hit theaters on Thursday night, giving fans their first [...]




					comicbook.com
				






​


----------



## Huntn

​
I feel like Marvel is slipping, maybe I’m suffering some kind of Marvel God overload. *Moon Knight*, it seems to have all of the elements that would normally draw me in, especially the first episode, but no. I’ve turned it off half way though the 3rd episode. I don’t care. This looks like Egyptian Gods?

There is nothing that has been turned into a Disney/Marvel series that I cherish and the last *Spider-Man* sucked. I guess I’ll lower my expectations for the new movies of franchises I am vested in, and hope for a surprise.


----------



## Cmaier

Huntn said:


> View attachment 13626​
> I feel like Marvel is slipping, maybe I’m suffering some kind of Marvel God overload. *Moon Knight*, it seems to have all of the elements that would normally draw me in, especially the first episode, but no. I’ve turned it off half way though the 3rd episode. I don’t care. This looks like Egyptian Gods?
> 
> There is nothing that has been turned into a Disney/Marvel series that I cherish and the last *Spider-Man* sucked. I guess I’ll lower my expectations for the new movies of franchises I am vested in, and hope for a surprise.




My wife and I love it. Jewish superhero with multiple personalities and a goldfish. What’s not to like?


----------



## Alli

Cmaier said:


> My wife and I love it. Jewish superhero with multiple personalities and a goldfish. What’s not to like?



We watched the latest episode last night, and I practically knocked my poor husband out of bed yelling that Marvel had finally given us a Jewish super hero. I guess since they’d taken care of every other minority group in Eternals, it was time.


----------



## JayMysteri0

_Unnecessary geek bits:_

TECHNICALLY, Moon Knight is the first announced MCU Jewish Superhero.

In some canon Bucky Barnes / Winter Soldier is considered to be Jewish.  Also when Magneto is added to the MCU ( Perhaps by default in the new Doctor Strange movie if the Illuminati really is in it ) Wanda / Scarlet Witch & Pietro / Quicksilver the children of Magneto are Jewish by birth. If the Illuminati does match the comic version then Reed Richard will exist, which means Ben Grimm / The Thing exists who is based on his Jewish creator Jack Kirby.

If you take any of that canon in consideration Marc Spector / Moon Knight would be the first announced Jewish super hero, but not the first to appear.


----------



## JayMysteri0

*WARNING!!!*

Avoid Twitter today if you don't want some supposed MASSIVE spoilers for the new Dr. Strange movie.

If you click on #CaptainMarvel trending today, you have no one to blame but yourself.


----------



## Cmaier

JayMysteri0 said:


> *WARNING!!!*
> 
> Avoid Twitter today if you don't want some supposed MASSIVE spoilers for the new Dr. Strange movie.
> 
> If you click on #CaptainMarvel trending today, you have no one to blame but yourself.



Thanks! I will avoid.


----------



## Edd

Huntn said:


> View attachment 13626​
> I feel like Marvel is slipping, maybe I’m suffering some kind of Marvel God overload. *Moon Knight*, it seems to have all of the elements that would normally draw me in, especially the first episode, but no. I’ve turned it off half way though the 3rd episode. I don’t care. This looks like Egyptian Gods?
> 
> There is nothing that has been turned into a Disney/Marvel series that I cherish and the last *Spider-Man* sucked. I guess I’ll lower my expectations for the new movies of franchises I am vested in, and hope for a surprise.



I’m pretty much with you on Moon Knight. I think they’re doing great with what they have but the source material is dreadfully boring to me. I’ll see it through but expectations are low.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Edd said:


> I’m pretty much with you on Moon Knight. I think they’re doing great with what they have but the source material is dreadfully boring to me. I’ll see it through but expectations are low.



Actually the source material great, it's just that there is too much to draw from.  The character MK has been retconned more times than the 'r' version of 1/6.  What started as a Batman riff who fights a werewolf ( which by the way a Werewolf by Night Halloween special is supposedly coming this year.  I LOVE the foul mouthed Elsa Bloodstone character.  ), turned into a study about multiple personalities, to stories about the place of Egyptian Gods in a Marvel universe where Greek & Norse dominate, to who knows what else.  It's a lot to try and stuff in a mini series.

One of my all time favorite runs in Marvel Comics is where the Suit / Suit comes from, and is great.  Just short stories that emphasize the weirdness of the Marc Spector / Moon Knight world where he has Batman like super gadgets & deals with Khonshu. Unfortunately as things are in our time, the writer has become a bit problematic because of past actions, but the stories I thought rocked.  Great if you don't want to get caught up with back history and just want to read a fun series.






Digression time to show off my Funkos

I was a little annoyed that they made the Suit / Suit a bit of joke, as it is my favorite version, followed by the original version.






Unnecessary note:  The Suit version of Moon Knight is literally the most expensive ( A whooping $50 ) I've ever spent on a Funko.  The "value" of course has since tripled in some places.  To give an idea though, this is what the more exclusive version of my Suit Version was going for, before the show was announced.






So, choices were made & directions were chosen ( that Goddess is nowhere in the books ), but the actual source material was sometimes very good.


----------



## Alli

JayMysteri0 said:


> If you take any of that canon in consideration Marc Spector / Moon Knight would be the first announced Jewish super hero, but not the first to appear.



According to my comic book nerd friend, Bruce Banner is also Jewish in the comics but never in the movies. But that’s normal, right?


----------



## JayMysteri0

Alli said:


> According to my comic book nerd friend, Bruce Banner is also Jewish in the comics but never in the movies. But that’s normal, right?



I honestly don't recall where I've ever seen that Bruce Banner was Jewish.  I've don't recall anything about his faith being mentioned.

It would be normal though, to instead make it part of a character in the movies.  In the comics details like religion are kind of side stepped unless it's an important part of the make up of a character.  Such as Matt Murdock / Daredevil having his faith / Christianity brought more to the forefront in the last few years, which helps guide his decisions at times. Ethnicity is also something that isn't focused on, unless it's important part of the character.  Pretty much nationality, race, & sex have been the biggest defining things about characters until the success of movies.  For my comic book days it was Kitty Pride of the X - Men who made a big splash with being Jewish, so for myself she & Ben Grimm are the characters I think of as being Jewish.


----------



## Huntn

Cmaier said:


> My wife and I love it. Jewish superhero with multiple personalities and a goldfish. What’s not to like?



The presentation which has nothing to do with what religion any character is.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Doctor Strange... Was NOT what I expected.

I did like it.  I liked it even more that it did not do what I thought was the expected.  It instead did a story that does not have ties to the traditional MCU, it's it's own thing.  But...  It does have ties, but it felt more like to the Disney+ show like What If & WandaVision.

If you know ANY of the spoilers you know what the big reveal is midway, that sort of blows things open.  But... it doesn't.  The only spoiler I will give, is that you finally hear "616" officially designated.  The film is visually creative.  I absolutely LOVED Strange at the final fight, and loved that it paid off from something earlier.  There is definitely an action figure coming.

No spoilers.  

I will say though, the mid end credit scene you have to stay for.  Only for the disbelief factor.  The end of credits scene is really only for Sam Raimi fans who will get the joke, otherwise if you YouTubed it you wouldn't care.

Fun stuff, will go into more detail after more people see it, or just do spoiler shielded posts.  Can't wait to hear what @Huntn has to say about some of the stuff ( Marvel babble ) thrown about in this film.


----------



## Cmaier

JayMysteri0 said:


> Doctor Strange... Was NOT what I expected.
> 
> I did like it.  I liked it even more that it did not do what I thought was the expected.  It instead did a story that does not have ties to the traditional MCU, it's it's own thing.  But...  It does have ties, but it felt more like to the Disney+ show like What If & WandaVision.
> 
> If you know ANY of the spoilers you know what the big reveal is midway, that sort of blows things open.  But... it doesn't.  The only spoiler I will give, is that you finally hear "616" officially designated.  The film is visually creative.  I absolutely LOVED Strange at the final fight, and loved that it paid off from something earlier.  There is definitely an action figure coming.
> 
> No spoilers.
> 
> I will say though, the mid end credit scene you have to stay for.  Only for the disbelief factor.  The end of credits scene is really only for Sam Raimi fans who will get the joke, otherwise if you YouTubed it you wouldn't care.
> 
> Fun stuff, will go into more detail after more people see it, or just do spoiler shielded posts.  Can't wait to hear what @Huntn has to say about some of the stuff ( Marvel babble ) thrown about in this film.



I think we’ll see it next weekend - my wife and I are trying to avoid a full theater and COVID, and we figure that seeing it on a sunday morning the week after it came out should work.  It’ll be our first time in a theater since November 2019, looks like.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Cmaier said:


> I think we’ll see it next weekend - my wife and I are trying to avoid a full theater and COVID, and we figure that seeing it on a sunday morning the week after it came out should work.  It’ll be our first time in a theater since November 2019, looks like.



I was kind of surprised how packed the theatre was at the matinee.  I myself hadn't been to the theatre since Fast 9 released and promptly killed my desire to go to the movies again.  But it was fairly packed today at the first showing, and it wasn't a true holiday weekend. Very surprised by how full the theatre & the mall were on a Friday Afternoon.

Two observations unrelated to the movie:

1.  The theatre I went to has online ordering of your seats. What's different than what I remember the last time I went was that you can now skip going to a machine to get your ticket.  Instead they email you a QR code which you show to the ticket person who scans it and tells you your theater & seat.  Problem?  For the first time I had someone seated in my assigned seat, with no ticket to physically show it falls on you to make a scene.  The theatre did not think that through.

2.  Comic book geeks who's Marvel knowledge is from the Disney MCU movie are the painful worst.  Hearing some guy argue with his friend that it's Earth - 316 ( I'm guessing that's where Stone Cold Steve Austin is Sorcerer Supreme and hurls cans of domestic beer to defend the Earth ) and not Earth - 616.  It wasn't the first time the guy admitted he misheard something in the film, but he wanted people to google this.

See?  Geeks find listening to other geeks just as painful as non geeks do.

Also:

The new Top Gun looks great.  They show a few minutes from the movie before Doctor Strange.

Seeing the trailer for the new Elvis Presley movie, seeing it sort of address racism, despite what's been documented of racism & Elvis Presley.  Very weird.


----------



## Edd

My hope for May is to see both Dr Strange and Top Gun at an Imax theater.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Edd said:


> My hope for May is to see both Dr Strange and Top Gun at an Imax theater.



From the scenes they show, seeing Top Gun in Imax seems like a necessity.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Saw this is trending on Twitter




I am of course curious why Magneto would be trending for absolutely no reason.  Only to discover it's because there is a certain group of individuals, you may have heard of them before, who are upset by the version of Magneto that currently exists.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1522947070151344128/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1522789249925406722/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1522807824732102657/

Seems the Reed Richards level of reach here is that since Magneto still exists, he CAN'T possibly be a Holocaust survivor, so that should be erased from the character.

Nah.  We see your bullshit.  On free comic book day no less.  Go kick rocks with this whole not wanting to be upset by things, while yelling at others to 'F' their feelings.

I'm not going to lie, it also hurt seeing Magneto trending with Betsy DeVos.  It's like villains were the biggest thing trending on Twitter for those few moments.  As if the two were comparable.  There's comic book evil, then there's the like of "for profit" DeVos.


----------



## Cmaier

JayMysteri0 said:


> Saw this is trending on Twitter
> View attachment 13796
> 
> I am of course curious why Magneto would be trending for absolutely no reason.  Only to discover it's because there is a certain group of individuals, you may have heard of them before, who are upset by the version of Magneto that currently exists.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1522947070151344128/
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1522789249925406722/
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1522807824732102657/
> 
> Seems the Reed Richards level of reach here is that since Magneto still exists, he CAN'T possibly be a Holocaust survivor, so that should be erased from the character.
> 
> Nah.  We see your bullshit.  On free comic book day no less.  Go kick rocks with this whole not wanting to be upset by things, while yelling at others to 'F' their feelings.
> 
> I'm not going to lie, it also hurt seeing Magneto trending with Betsy DeVos.  It's like villains were the biggest thing trending on Twitter for those few moments.  As if the two were comparable.  There's comic book evil, then there's the like of "for profit" DeVos.




“It’s perfectly possible for an old guy to control metallic objects with his mind, but asking us to believe he has a long lifespan is a bridge too far. Also, heil Hitler”


----------



## JayMysteri0

Next please.
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1522911642182422535/


----------



## Roller

I rented Venom (2018) yesterday after watching multiple clips on YouTube. The best parts were about Eddie Brock's interactions with the alien, most of which I'd already seen online. The good guy-bad guy story was less compelling.


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1525836931539640328/


----------



## DT

Shrink and $100 worth would last for a long time ...


----------



## JayMysteri0

Sooooooo, NOT quite the MCU, but it's got Spider-Man trending on Twitter so...

I know nothing about this fan made film, that was being made.






But evidently it's some kind of big deal to some.  Supposedly the crowd that backed that film is considered somewhat obnoxious, but I guess people were excited for it.

Then I see it trending on Twitter, and...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538798508001701888/

It's NOT good!



Spoiler: Not a good look



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538798508001701888/





Spoiler: Really NOT a good look



https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538861973836034048/


https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538829615522791425/

Racism is a bitch people! Especially when people find out you're racist.

"How to tank a project in 12 seconds."

I wonder what happens when Disney finds out?


----------



## Cmaier

JayMysteri0 said:


> Sooooooo, NOT quite the MCU, but it's got Spider-Man trending on Twitter so...
> 
> I know nothing about this fan made film, that was being made.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But evidently it's some kind of big deal to some.  Supposedly the crowd that backed that film is considered somewhat obnoxious, but I guess people were excited for it.
> 
> Then I see it trending on Twitter, and...
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538798508001701888/
> 
> It's NOT good!
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Not a good look
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538798508001701888/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Really NOT a good look
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538861973836034048/
> 
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1538829615522791425/
> 
> Racism is a bitch people! Especially when people find out you're racist.
> 
> "How to tank a project in 12 seconds."
> 
> I wonder what happens when Disney finds out?




Also a bitch: copyright and trademark laws.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Cmaier said:


> Also a bitch: copyright and trademark laws.



When it comes to "fan projects" many companies ( NOT Disney or Nintendo ) tend to give a pass, as long as no money is made by selling the product.  Which is why they went with donations to pay for the product, then presumably put it online for free.  That way they don't run afoul of infringements under an interpretation of "fair use".  All of this negativity may draw Disney's eyeballs though.  Which is why I posted the tweet about Jon Watts ( the Spider-Man director ) congratulating the director.  Kind of an "ouch" moment, but there was no way for Jon Watts to know.

One of my favorite fan made projects that hadn't run into trouble.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> When it comes to "fan projects" many companies ( NOT Disney or Nintendo ) tend to give a pass, as long as no money is made by selling the product.  Which is why they went with donations to pay for the product, then presumably put it online for free.  That way they don't run afoul of infringements under an interpretation of "fair use".  All of this negativity may draw Disney's eyeballs though.  Which is why I posted the tweet about Jon Watts ( the Spider-Man director ) congratulating the director.  Kind of an "ouch" moment, but there was no way for Jon Watts to know.
> 
> One of my favorite fan made projects that hadn't run into trouble.



Holy crap, they got Jane and Perlman to do this? If anything it would strengthen the franchise.


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> Holy crap, they got Jane and Perlman to do this? If anything it would strengthen the franchise.




Oh yeah, this is f-ing awesome, but it's from 2012, so I think that shipped already sailed   Jane and Perlman are almost always awesome 

The Netflix Punisher series was pretty great if you haven't seen it (I guess it's on Disney+ now), the Punisher is played by Jon Bernthal.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Huntn said:


> Holy crap, they got Jane and Perlman to do this? If anything it would strengthen the franchise.



I believe Jane did it as motivation for another Punisher feature.

He did it with a producer who does a number of these types of films.






There's also the Uncharted fan film that was done before a Uncharted film officially got underway.






Not a fan film, but to bring this back to MCU stuff, the test footage Blur Studios did for Deadpool to try and convince Fox.


----------



## Huntn

JayMysteri0 said:


> I believe Jane did it as motivation for another Punisher feature.
> 
> He did it with a producer who does a number of these types of films.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's also the Uncharted fan film that was done before a Uncharted film officially got underway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a fan film, but to bring this back to MCU stuff, the test footage Blur Studios did for Deadpool to try and convince Fox.



Referencing your clips:
*Dead Pool*- I liked this, it was not a raunchy as the movies. 

*Uncharted*- I like Nathan Fillion, and was excited about this, but looks like he did not make the cut, replaced by Tom Holland who I don’t care for who plays Peter Parker.  I’ll comment on the punishment, punches to the jaw with brass knuckles, received by Fillion in this clip would have broken his jaw several times, and probably left any normal human being unable to talk, much less fight, and throwing yourself out a 2nd story window to belly flop on to hard payment should have broken something, but we don’t want to think about that do we, unless he is a _super person. _

*Power Rangers- *seems to have potential.

I’m not a cinematographer or a director, but I focused on the dynamic shots, with the camera always sweeping while capturing the scene, and it does make the content seem more fluid/dynamic. I like it, but it is so normal now in films , you might not even notice.


----------



## Huntn

DT said:


> Oh yeah, this is f-ing awesome, but it's from 2012, so I think that shipped already sailed   Jane and Perlman are almost always awesome
> 
> The Netflix Punisher series was pretty great if you haven't seen it (I guess it's on Disney+ now), the Punisher is played by Jon Bernthal.



Bernthal is a very different Punisher than Jane, but both are excellent in their own ways, but for gritty realism, Bernthal gets the edge, yet the 2004 Punish movie is one of my favorites, the back story as portrayed, and  I love the time he spent in his apartment and the characters he interacted with besides going after the Saints.


----------



## Edd

Huntn said:


> Bernthal is a very different Punisher than Jane, but both are excellent in their own ways, but for gritty realism, Bernthal gets the edge, yet the 2004 Punish movie is one of my favorites, the back story as portrayed, and  I love the time he spent in his apartment and the characters he interacted with besides going after the Saints.



Bernthal, being a small guy, seems a bit of a miscast but I’d agree he killed it in every other way. It’s a bit like Tom Cruise playing Jack Reacher, although I never saw that film. 

Jane is an interesting actor; loved him in The Expanse. I’m surprised he looked to go back to Punisher but not sure why I’m surprised.


----------



## Huntn

Edd said:


> Bernthal, being a small guy, seems a bit of a miscast but I’d agree he killed it in every other way. It’s a bit like Tom Cruise playing Jack Reacher, although I never saw that film.
> 
> Jane is an interesting actor; loved him in The Expanse. I’m surprised he looked to go back to Punisher but not sure why I’m surprised.



I would have never guessed he was a small guy, power of the camera.


----------



## Huntn

Love and Thunder, it looks big and wonderful.
Theater time next week for me.






Made me watch at Youtube





More, a lot more, background including tie in with comic
but if  want to know and some speculation… ​









						Is Thor: Love And Thunder Chris Hemsworth's Final Marvel Movie? Here's What He And Kevin Feige Think
					

What does the future hold for Thor?




					www.cinemablend.com
				












						Taika Waititi on ‘Thor: Love and Thunder,’ Playing Marginalized Characters, and Looming Midlife Crisis
					

From Marvel movies to “Our Flag Means Death,” Waititi is challenging Hollywood to improve its representation. How does he do it? He explains.




					www.indiewire.com


----------



## DT

Edd said:


> Jane is an interesting actor; loved him in The Expanse.




Like him quite a bit, he's in one of our favorite horror movies, The Mist (he's also terrific in the period horror/drama 1922).

I watched about 1/2 the first season of the Expanse and liked it, just one of those shows that got back burnered for no particular reason, I should get back it, the later seasons have outstanding reviews.


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> Love and Thunder, it looks big and wonderful.
> Theater time next week for me.




We may try to seeing it at the theater next week, like some kind of mid-week, off-hour type showing.  The place we go has advanced seating, so you can kind of get a sense of the crowd (plus, of course, choose your seat).

It's getting pretty mediocre reviews, I'm sure it'll still be a ton of fun, most the negativity seems to be, there's a little too much Waititi, he tends to get a little silly, and I guess he's pretty uncorked in this, which apparently also creates some weird tonal shifts.  Like I saw one review that said Christian Bale appears to be in a totally different movie.


----------



## DT

JayMysteri0 said:


> The only problem I had with it, is a problem of Marvel's own making.  We are so used to Marvel's movies having an over arching plot line to look forward to, and there's doesn't seem to be one yet in the newest phase.  I don't miss the "big plot line", but I think Disney might want to tamper down expectations.




Quoting this from the general movie thread, and yes, that seems to be the "issue" with the current MCU phase, and it might be the case with Thor 4 too.

Heck, Doctor Strange 2 was more or less a standalone movie, other than the connection to Wanda Vision (and some callbacks to What If).   Moon Knight (D+ again), same thing, it sort of, kind of, introduced what could be some Phase 4 type ideas, but could also not.

Spider-Man, also awesome, multiverse fun, but DS2 seemed to sort of put a pin in that.  To be honest, I really thought we'd see some Kang in DS2, like the multiverse is a neat concept, but there's needs to be a unifying force / villain, other than, "Wow, that place is filled with some weird shit ..."



Spoiler: DS2 Spoiler ...



And I guess maybe Wanda will come back?  As something else?  Is she still the big threat in Phase 4?


----------



## Huntn

DT said:


> We may try to seeing it at the theater next week, like some kind of mid-week, off-hour type showing.  The place we go has advanced seating, so you can kind of get a sense of the crowd (plus, of course, choose your seat).
> 
> It's getting pretty mediocre reviews, I'm sure it'll still be a ton of fun, most the negativity seems to be, there's a little too much Waititi, he tends to get a little silly, and I guess he's pretty uncorked in this, which apparently also creates some weird tonal shifts.  Like I saw one review that said Christian Bale appears to be in a totally different movie.



Interesting. We’ll have to see. Thor took a distinct shift into humor when Waititi took the helm. I remember at first not sure that I liked Ragnarok, but quickly adjusted, and shifted into loving it. This humor is why I also fell in love with Guardians, but that is a different director who seems to be on the same page regarding humor and music in these stories.


----------



## DT

We loved Ragnarok, it was such a huge change from the dreary The Dark World, it was a breath of fresh air.  And Waititi definitely got the character from the comics right, the addition of The Hulk was perfect, it had amazing character beats, Kate was having a blast chewing the scenario (and so were we).

I guess the doubling down on what what good in Ragnarok has some people asking, "Is this too much of a good thing?"

RT has the Thor movies ranked 77%, 66%, 93% (Ragnarok), and now Love and Thunder at 69%.

Like I said, I'm sure we'll still have a bunch of fun with this, but I do get the criticisms.


----------



## Edd

DT said:


> Quoting this from the general movie thread, and yes, that seems to be the "issue" with the current MCU phase, and it might be the case with Thor 4 too.
> 
> Heck, Doctor Strange 2 was more or less a standalone movie, other than the connection to Wanda Vision (and some callbacks to What If).   Moon Knight (D+ again), same thing, it sort of, kind of, introduced what could be some Phase 4 type ideas, but could also not.
> 
> Spider-Man, also awesome, multiverse fun, but DS2 seemed to sort of put a pin in that.  To be honest, I really thought we'd see some Kang in DS2, like the multiverse is a neat concept, but there's needs to be a unifying force / villain, other than, "Wow, that place is filled with some weird shit ..."
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: DS2 Spoiler ...
> 
> 
> 
> And I guess maybe Wanda will come back?  As something else?  Is she still the big threat in Phase 4?





Spoiler: More DS2 spoilers



I expect her to return, but I hope not as a big bad. 

She spent WandaVision as a threat, enslaving that town. At the end of that she has the Darkhold, which turns her into the threat again in DS2. 

In both of those instances she sort of comes to her senses. If they do it again, it seems repetitive. Although they must be tempted to do that mutant storyline from the comics where she eliminates mutants or something.


----------



## DT

Edd said:


> Spoiler: More DS2 spoilers
> 
> 
> 
> I expect her to return, but I hope not as a big bad.
> 
> She spent WandaVision as a threat, enslaving that town. At the end of that she has the Darkhold, which turns her into the threat again in DS2.
> 
> In both of those instances she sort of comes to her senses. If they do it again, it seems repetitive. Although they must be tempted to do that mutant storyline from the comics where she eliminates mutants or something.




Hahaha, spoiler wrapped exchanges make me chuckle ... 



Spoiler



Yeah, she want from hero, to villain, to resolving things in herself, then getting all funked up again with the Darkhold.

I only know the comic from online discussion, but it's a huge thing, that affected the whole MCU, crossed titles, etc., if they do that, and bring her back, I agree, her story is done, I don't need to see her reborn and evil out AGAIN.


----------



## Huntn

*Love and Thunder *(2022) it looks big and wonderful. Famous last words. 
If you look at the first 3 Thor movies, they have well defined and executed narratives. The third movie, is brilliant how humor is inserted, well timed, kept under control, and the story still holds its edge.

Love and Thunder movie starts strong, establishing the motivations of the villain, but the movie does a real disservice to Gods in general making most of them look like cartoonish jerks. 

This story felt muddled, the Director must be running out of ideas. We get to see another Asgard Play (like Ragnarok), the Guardians of the Galaxy thrown in as filler to remind us a new Guardians movie is in the works. Sure use Jane Foster from the comics I approve, a great basis for a story, but it felt off, the execution and imagery were terrible, Zeus was god aweful, along with God Central, and we don’t need to see Thor‘s butt which I can forgive, but don’t turn Thor into a shallow wimpy  characature of the character along with a shallow condensed portrayal of how Thor and Jane broke up originally. It would have been better to leave that to our imagination as they  did when it was first mentioned that they had dumped one another In Ragnarok.  Anyway, I’ll stop, disappointed. 

Movies are so expensive and the associated disappointment , I may just stick to streaming…


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> [...] we don’t need to see Thor‘s butt [...]




I beg to differ ...   




Huntn said:


> Movies are so expensive and the associated disappointment , I may just stick to streaming…




Yeah, we're very selective about what we go out to see (especially in the last couple of years).  We kind of make it an event, we go early, get an adult bev, huge popcorn and misc other goodies, plan on some kind of restaurant stop, but the movie itself has to be pretty good too.  Our last two films - which was the last two we've been to the theaters to see since like 2019, were a blast, but we had a good sense of what to expect going in (it was the Bob's Burgers movie, on Hulu/HBO tomorrow BTW ... and the theatrical one night re-release of The Thing).

Thor?  We could probably take or leave, we didn't see either the most recent Spider-Man or Dr. Strange at the theater, which made it tricky avoid spoilers).


----------



## Huntn

DT said:


> I beg to differ ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, we're very selective about what we go out to see (especially in the last couple of years).  We kind of make it an event, we go early, get an adult bev, huge popcorn and misc other goodies, plan on some kind of restaurant stop, but the movie itself has to be pretty good too.  Our last two films - which was the last two we've been to the theaters to see since like 2019, were a blast, but we had a good sense of what to expect going in (it was the Bob's Burgers movie, on Hulu/HBO tomorrow BTW ... and the theatrical one night re-release of The Thing).
> 
> Thor?  We could probably take or leave, we didn't see either the most recent Spider-Man or Dr. Strange at the theater, which made it tricky avoid spoilers).



I saw a new Avatar trailer, I’m afraid that is theater, even iMax  worthy.


----------



## DT

Pretty fun listen, another episode about Thor: LAT, but only as a starting point to discuss the greater MCU:









						‘Thor: Love and Thunder’ and Five Ways to Fix the Marvel Crisis
					

Plus, Sean, Charles, and Rob pitch the Marvel stories they want to see on the big screen




					www.theringer.com
				





Spotify direct:


----------



## DT

A shit ton of fun [Marvel] announcements / previews / trailers at the Disney D23 event:

Secret Invasion
Thunderbolts
Loki Season 2 
Daredevil: Born Again
The Marvels
Captain America: New World Order
Ant-Man and Wasp: Quantamania
Avengers: Kang Dynasty

Read about it here (lots of videos at too):









						Marvel, Star Wars, and 20th Century Studio Showcase: Everything Announced - IGN
					

From a trailer for Season 3 of The Mandalorian to the line-up for Marvel's Thunderbolts film to a new trailer for Marvel's Secret Invasion, here are all the biggest announcements and trailers from D23's Marvel, Star Wars, and 20th Century studio showcase.




					www.ign.com


----------



## Huntn

Werewolf By Night Season 1 (2022) | Synopsis, Cast & Characters | Marvel
					

Explore Werewolf By Night Season 1 on the official site of Marvel Entertainment! Learn about the plot, cast, characters, & more!




					www.marvel.com
				




*Werewolf By Night*, a single 55 minute presentation?


----------



## Edd

Huntn said:


> Werewolf By Night Season 1 (2022) | Synopsis, Cast & Characters | Marvel
> 
> 
> Explore Werewolf By Night Season 1 on the official site of Marvel Entertainment! Learn about the plot, cast, characters, & more!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.marvel.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Werewolf By Night*, a single 55 minute presentation?



Read good things, haven't watched.


----------



## Huntn

Edd said:


> Read good things, haven't watched.



It’s in my list to view, but one 55 min show? Maybe they are prepping for something else/more…


----------



## Edd

Huntn said:


> It’s in my list to view, but one 55 min show? Maybe they are prepping for something else/more…



 Take a chance? Report back!


----------



## Huntn

*Guardians of the Galaxy Christmas Special*- OMG.  I’ll pretend I did not see that…


​


Spoiler: Except for:



Mantis is Quill’s half sister?!


----------

