# ICE Vehicles:  General topics



## DT

OK, sure why not, I know we have much smaller numbers, but maybe this version won't be relentlessly littered with dumb ...


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## Chew Toy McCoy

I drive a charcoal 2013 Camry.  I change my own air filters.  

That’s about all I can contribute to this thread.


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## Eric

2020 BMW (lease) I have been loyal to them for about 15 years now. Of course over the last several months it's just been sitting in the garage, I've maybe put on a couple hundred miles at best since the pandemic started.


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## DT

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I drive a charcoal 2013 Camry.  I change my own air filters.
> 
> That’s about all I can contribute to this thread.




That's OK, I got nothing either, I'm sort of all car'ed out ...


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## DT

Well, I'm waiting on the revised Velossa intake ducts, I had them on my '16 GT, there was a slight revision to the passenger side grill area (I have a '19 now ...), so they're making a MY18+ flavor (technically the driver's side, where the actual air intake snorkel sits is the same).

I've sourced an aftermarket "Pony-less" grill, I'll save my OEM, and I'll cut out just the corners to expose the ducts (that will be in matching orange), should look pretty cool, and on my '16 they really help to drop the low speed IATs (intake temps).

!__woot__!


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## DT

Coming out of a store from a supply run (yesterday) I had a little, "Oh, the color/lighting looks neat" moment, snapped a pic, it's sort of blurry I think the lens was a little fogged up.  I had washed it in the morning, hadn't done a full on a wash-with-soap in a while, it stays garaged, mostly not driven, so I've just been occasionally wiping it down with a little quick detail spray.  When it's really clean it has a neat metallic finish that really shifts the color around, from a deeper orange to almost yellow.


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## DT

Seriously considering going *EV next year.

I'll babble into this thread, on this site, since my car thread @ TOP has been ruined, mostly by one fuckwit ...*


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## Clix Pix

Ooh, a car thread!!!!  In October I traded in my beloved little blue Acura RSX, fifteen years old, on a 2021 Honda Civic Sports Hatchback.   I love my new car, she's fun to drive, but actually I haven't really gone all that many places or all that far in her yet, thanks to Covid-19 and such.....     Honda calls the color "Polished Metal Metallic" or some such, but after a couple of days I realized that she is actually in Apple parlance, "Space Grey."   She matches my Macs and my iPads perfectly!   The new Graphite color that Apple is offering this year in the iPhone 12 Pro looks as though that would go very, very nicely with my new car, too.....  

In the meantime, DT, I absolutely ADORE the color of your gorgeous vehicle!!!!    Porsche, right?  Orange is my favorite color and that is one heckuva  gorgeous, fabulous car you've got there.....   Droooooolllll........   You say you don't drive her much?   Take her out more often!  Cars need and want to be driven, all those "horses" under the hood need their exercise!


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## Joe

I have a 2019 Tacoma


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## SuperMatt

Lots of choices for EVs now. I picked this one in 2016; just made the last car payment (0.9% APR!!). 24K, plus the 7.5K federal tax credit and zero sales tax for EVs in my jurisdiction... less than $17K and 5 years of not having to stop at a gas station!


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## Clix Pix

My shiny new Honda Civic Sports Hatchback shortly after I brought her home back in October:


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## DT

Clix Pix said:


> Ooh, a car thread!!!!  In October I traded in my beloved little blue Acura RSX, fifteen years old, on a 2021 Honda Civic Sports Hatchback.   I love my new car, she's fun to drive, but actually I haven't really gone all that many places or all that far in her yet, thanks to Covid-19 and such.....     Honda calls the color "Polished Steel Metallic" or some such, but after a couple of days I realized that she is actually in Apple parlance, "Space Grey."   She matches my Macs and my iPads perfectly!   The new Graphite color that Apple is offering this year in the iPhone 12 Pro looks as though that would go very, very nicely with my new car, too.....
> 
> In the meantime, DT, I absolutely ADORE the color of your gorgeous vehicle!!!!    Porsche, right?  Orange is my favorite color and that is one heckuva  gorgeous, fabulous car you've got there.....   Droooooolllll........   You say you don't drive her much?   Take her out more often!  Cars need and want to be driven, all those "horses" under the hood need their exercise!




Nice, re: your new ride  I was going to demand photos, but I see you've already complied 

I really love the dark-er-ish gray/metallics, we've had a few cars in that color range, one was even a custom paint job (a Supra, originally in Baltic Blue, converted over to Lexus Graphite Gray Pearl).  It's much easier to maintain vs. black, but still has the impact of a dark color, and since it's neutral, it works with all sort of contrasting color like red (like the brake calipers for example).

Yeah, that's a really fun orange, it's called Orange Fury, it's a multi-stage special paint, it has a tinted clearcoat, with a metallic base coat, and it's highly reactive to light, so it changes shades, like both of these are my car, no edits, that the actual color as photographed ...

My hood:






Also my hood:







Oh, and the car is a Mustang GT (obv. a convertible )  It has a few modifications, so it looks a little different.


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## DT

JagRunner said:


> I have a 2019 Tacoma




It will still be running when the sun has burned out 



SuperMatt said:


> Lots of choices for EVs now. I picked this one in 2016; just made the last car payment (0.9% APR!!). 24K, plus the 7.5K federal tax credit and zero sales tax for EVs in my jurisdiction... less than $17K and 5 years of not having to stop at a gas station!




Funny you posted a VW, we've been knocking around the idea of a mid-upper market BEV (make/model TBD ...), and a smaller, secondary car like a Golf GTI - the latter for when there's a quick need for like occasional school pickup (if that's ever actually a thing again ...)


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## The-Real-Deal82

Bought a new car this morning, Honda CR-V to replace my 2015 version of the same car. A better spec and an automatic.


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## User.168

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## DT

Nice!  I was going to do a car related post pretty soon, I've given up on posting at The Other Place in the general community area.  That RelentlessBabbler asshat kind of __wrecked__ my car thread over there.


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## User.168

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## The-Real-Deal82

theSeb said:


> I can confirm that buying a black car was a massive mistake, especially if you are slightly bothered about your car's appearance and/or love your car. My garage now looks like I am a full time detailer.



I’ve owned several black cars too and yep they never look clean lol.


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## DT

I've I'm never buying a black car again several times ...


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## The-Real-Deal82

They do like so good when they are clean though. My current CR-V is white and that hides the dirt a little better but I still prefer black. Here is my current car:


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## Clix Pix

My first car was a black car (chosen by my father, it was not anything I ever would have selected for myself), and then many years later, we had a black Honda Accord.  Yeah, black cars definitely show the dirt quickly!   Ditto for white.    My new car, which is a deep grey ("Space Grey" in Apple parlance) so far doesn't seem to show the dirt much, but then again she hasn't really accumulated much since I haven't driven all that extensively.   We'll see how she looks after a snowstorm and then the stuff only half-melts into a slushy, muddy mess and I have to go somewhere!


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## The-Real-Deal82

Our new car, picked up this morning. Weird having a completely human free exchange outside the dealership.


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## User.168

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## Clix Pix

Oooh, she's purty!!!!   Another CRV?    Isn't it fun having a brand-new vehicle?    Even though it has now been a couple of months I still am marveling over the experience of getting into and driving a shiny new car!


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## SuperMatt

Saw this in The NY Times. I have had an electric vehicle for 5 years and can confirm it is cheaper over time, by quite a bit.









						Electric Cars Are Better for the Planet – and Often Your Budget, Too (Published 2021)
					

New data published Thursday shows that despite the higher sticker price, electric cars may actually save drivers money in the long-run.



					www.nytimes.com


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## Clix Pix

When I was in the thinking-about-a-new-car phase I briefly considered the idea of a Prius or other hybrid electric vehicle but it would have to be one which did not require that I plug it into a battery charger at any time since we do not have charging stations here in my parking lot or anywhere near the community, which would obviously be an issue.   Finally decided to just stick with a gasoline-powered car once again, since I have driven those since I was sixteen years old, lo these many, many moons ago.


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## DT

We are starting to think about the replacement for the family ride, verified the lease docs, and it will be over this may (as expected, May 2018 - May 2021).

We might just "play it safe", and go with another traditional gas, mid/full sized SUV ... in Red  (have to keep Pinchy in spirit and color ...), performance-y variant, etc.


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## User.168

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## DT

DT said:


> We are starting to think about the replacement for the family ride, verified the lease docs, and it will be over this may (as expected, May 2018 - May 2021).
> 
> We might just "play it safe", and go with another traditional gas, mid/full sized SUV ... in Red  (have to keep Pinchy in spirit and color ...), performance-y variant, etc.




... or not. 

I dig on my current '19 GT, it's setup fantastic (just the right amount of aftermarket), perfectly optioned (basically __all__).

I'm starting to think about doing something different.  Heck, I've got a few aftermarket parts I still haven't installed for several months, so while I do dig on it, I'm not as "into it" as I was.

My car, is sort of my hobby/fun thing, I mean, it's the wife's too, she's always welcome to use it, but she generally doesn't (even with with an A10 this time for ease-of-use). Then we have the "family ride" we keep stock, usually a lease, it's always under warranty/maintenance coverage, so zero worries, and it's the only vehicle we take on any kind of drive that: has larger carrying or towing needs, more than 4 people, more than ~30 minutes (so any trips to Universal, The Keys), bad/inclement weather (including hurricane escape), it's big, safe, roomy, and very capable.

My idea:  maybe merge my car with the family car, swap the RT for an SRT, get rid of the GT, and get a less expensive, 2nd car as kind of a "backup", it would sit outside, thinking maybe a Golf GTI. Then I'd have a fun car, that's also the family cruiser, road trip car, tow vehicle, that also stays in the garage (so it stays cooler, warmer, cleaner).






... and maybe buy another boat, hahahaha, TBC ...


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## DT

Reached out to my dealer, bought some crack.

Reach out to my __other__ dealer, got him looking for a DD/SRT.


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## DT

Scratch that plan, going a different direction 

Side note:  I've told people that you can sell your leased car, they just want it paid off for the residual amount + outstanding payments.  Well, we did a couple of buy offers (through Carvana for example), the DD is coming back $7500 over the buyout/residual   So instead of just handing over the keys, it's being sold, we pocket the money, on to the next lease.


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## DT

Snazzberry.


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## DT

OK, our new ride is sitting in the garage, had it for a few days (as I mentioned the dealership in Orlando was kind enough to drive it the 2 hours to our door)

It's a *Wrangler Unlimited Sahara 4XE*.  

This is Jeep's new PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle), our is in Snazzberry Pearl (black interior), has most options/packages:  safety, advanced safety, tow, body colored hardtop, cold weather (heated everyone and remote start), special LSD type rear axle - the 4XE models come standard with what's normally options, even at the Sahara trim (which is kind of their mid-upper), so the larger uConnect display/system, leather,  the LED lighting system, 500+ watt bunch-o-speakers Alpine audio upgrade, etc.  The Sahara comes with gloss black 20" wheels, body colored fenders.

As I mentioned in another post,  We cross shopped another 3 row, explorer ST, nice with the 21" Perf Pack, quick, gave the Hyundai/Kia twins a review, finally, we decided we don't care about a 3-row/6-7 seaters any longer (why do we really need it, it was always to accommodate someone else ...), have never owned a Jeep myself (Dad had one) we were looking at Grand Cherokees.

However, the wife had a hankering, I sort of did too, the little G is into it, it's new, it's old, it's super cool, it's very "beachy", it's small step towards the future.  When Tesla gets their $7K (and certainly if it's $10K), fed tax credit back, I'll very likely get a Model 3 Performance.

Anyway, Wranglers are neat, they're the "real" Jeep, super competent offroad, I mean, this thing can traverse 30" of water!

Now about the PHEV system, it's a hoot, it doesn't have super long range in pure electric mode (20-25 miles), but you can go hybrid where it works both the ICE and EV systems together, or E-save where it runs in ICE only, saves the EV mode, like driving to a trailhead where you want to __quietly_ drive through a forrest.  It has a port to charge, with regular 110/5a, it's a LONG duration, with the new 240/32a charger I have arriving today, it's about 50 minutes - plus, it has regenerative braking, so in slowing down the vehicle, it actually charges the EV battery.

The ICE engine is Jeep's very solid 2.0L I4 turbo, that puts out 270HP, and 290 lb/ft of Torque, but ...

With the electric motors doing their thing in combination, this Wrangler is *375HP* __and__ *470 lb/ft of Torque*.  That means, this 5000 lb box can go from 0-60 in 6 seconds or less (some people have been testing and getting 5.8-5.9 seconds).

Also, Wranglers are modular.  The hardtop has two front panels that come out (has a nice padded storage bag), so the front seats have an open roof - but the WHOLE roof comes off as well, the vehicle has a full chassis "under" the top so to speak, and it even retains all the lighting, audio, etc..   The carpets all just snap out and there's drain plugs in the floor, you can literally hose it out   Even the rear subwoofer is completely water resistant - there are tops that cover just the seating and leave the back open, kind of like a mini pickup truck.

The hardtop is a bit heavy for just a manual lift (not insanely heavy, the newer JL model hardtop is about 100-110 lbs), that's what the winch is for, we'll lift it off in the garage, leave it hanging, and score an easy to remove, emergency rain soft top 

On to some pics ...


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## DT

A few exterior shots, my GT providing the photo bomb in the background on a couple   Love they maintain the iconic grill/headlamps, while updating it, and adding way more sophisticated lighting.


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## DT

A few interior shots ...  front panels were out, so one is through the open roof   2nd row has a 40-60 split, so the three of us can ride with both the hatch area and some middle area loaded up. In that 3rd photo, you can see over on the driver's lower left, there's the mode control, Hybrid vs. Electric vs. E-Save, also the extra shifter to the left, that's the 4WD control, you can 2WD, 4WD auto or select mode, toss the whole thing in neutral so all the axles free spin, and finally a real 4WD LO mode, for crawling around


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## DT

And a couple of close-ups, one of the PHEV plug/badging, and one of the hood, it was a bit dusty already, but you can see the depth and layers on the Snazzberry, it's a multi-stage paint, with a flaked pearl coat, really beautiful.


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## Clix Pix

WOW!!!!!!  You're going to have such fun driving that thing!

There are a few Jeeps which live in my neighborhood -- two of them right here at my building, the others further down the parking lot belonging to other buildings.    I see a fair number of them on the roads around here, too, so I daresay they're pretty popular, even in this very congested suburban area.


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## Edd

DT said:


> OK, our new ride is sitting in the garage, had it for a few days (as I mentioned the dealership in Orlando was kind enough to drive it the 2 hours to our door)
> 
> It's a *Wrangler Unlimited Sahara 4XE*.
> 
> This is Jeep's new PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle), our is in Snazzberry Pearl (black interior), has most options/packages:  safety, advanced safety, tow, body colored hardtop, cold weather (heated everyone and remote start), special LSD type rear axle - the 4XE models come standard with what's normally options, even at the Sahara trim (which is kind of their mid-upper), so the larger uConnect display/system, leather,  the LED lighting system, 500+ watt bunch-o-speakers Alpine audio upgrade, etc.  The Sahara comes with gloss black 20" wheels, body colored fenders.
> 
> As I mentioned in another post,  We cross shopped another 3 row, explorer ST, nice with the 21" Perf Pack, quick, gave the Hyundai/Kia twins a review, finally, we decided we don't care about a 3-row/6-7 seaters any longer (why do we really need it, it was always to accommodate someone else ...), have never owned a Jeep myself (Dad had one) we were looking at Grand Cherokees.
> 
> However, the wife had a hankering, I sort of did too, the little G is into it, it's new, it's old, it's super cool, it's very "beachy", it's small step towards the future.  When Tesla gets their $7K (and certainly if it's $10K), fed tax credit back, I'll very likely get a Model 3 Performance.
> 
> Anyway, Wranglers are neat, they're the "real" Jeep, super competent offroad, I mean, this thing can traverse 30" of water!
> 
> Now about the PHEV system, it's a hoot, it doesn't have super long range in pure electric mode (20-25 miles), but you can go hybrid where it works both the ICE and EV systems together, or E-save where it runs in ICE only, saves the EV mode, like driving to a trailhead where you want to __quietly_ drive through a forrest.  It has a port to charge, with regular 110/5a, it's a LONG duration, with the new 240/32a charger I have arriving today, it's about 50 minutes - plus, it has regenerative braking, so in slowing down the vehicle, it actually charges the EV battery.
> 
> The ICE engine is Jeep's very solid 2.0L I4 turbo, that puts out 270HP, and 290 lb/ft of Torque, but ...
> 
> With the electric motors doing their thing in combination, this Wrangler is *375HP* __and__ *470 lb/ft of Torque*.  That means, this 5000 lb box can go from 0-60 in 6 seconds or less (some people have been testing and getting 5.8-5.9 seconds).
> 
> Also, Wranglers are modular.  The hardtop has two front panels that come out (has a nice padded storage bag), so the front seats have an open roof - but the WHOLE roof comes off as well, the vehicle has a full chassis "under" the top so to speak, and it even retains all the lighting, audio, etc..   The carpets all just snap out and there's drain plugs in the floor, you can literally hose it out   Even the rear subwoofer is completely water resistant - there are tops that cover just the seating and leave the back open, kind of like a mini pickup truck.
> 
> The hardtop is a bit heavy for just a manual lift (not insanely heavy, the newer JL model hardtop is about 100-110 lbs), that's what the winch is for, we'll lift it off in the garage, leave it hanging, and score an easy to remove, emergency rain soft top
> 
> On to some pics ...



Congrats, that’s an insane ride.


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## Huntn

My 2012 Fiat 500:


not my image​
...with 50k miles on it developed 2 oil leaks, one at the forward engine seal and another in the vicinity of the oil pump. Is that common, or is this a case of _Fix It Again Tony_? Fortunately I purchased a lifetime maintenance warranty though MOPAR at the time of purchase ($3k).

This car waited for 3 weeks to get parts. Now the interesting part, although warranty company approved the repair, in the process of disassembling the engine, they came across a bolt that has seized (I think it is in the vicinity of the camshaft) and they were worried that they would break a sprocket (?) and when they asked MOPAR, MOPAR would not cover this because “_the bolt as is was not broken_”. What the hell? 

I would describe a seized bolt as defective and if it hinders a repair, the expense of replacing it should be covered IMO.

Now the estimate cost of this bolt if broken is $50, which obviously in the big picture, is a drop in the bucket, but MOPAR nor the dealer would cover this expense, and they expect me the customer to pay for this? From my perspective this is not about cost but principle, and it’s absolutely chicken shit that they are refusing to cover it.

MOPAR has a dispute board where I will file a complaint, and I will check with my lawyer, but $50 is not worth a lawsuit.

Thoughts?


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## Edd

Utter bullshit is my thought. Agreed it’s a drop in the bucket but I’d put up a little resistance after dropping 3K on a warranty. Not worth going to war over but Jesus.


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## The-Real-Deal82

My step mother had a 2013 Fiat 500 automatic brand new and it developed a gearbox issue at 4.5k miles. Fiat decided at first to do absolutely nothing about it and suggested she pay £3k to have it fixed even though it was barely a year old. My dad threatened legal action and Fiat eventually offered to pay £1k towards the bill. She got it repaired and got rid of it. Sad as it was her dream car at the time but ended up being a complete nightmare. 

Everybody I know who has had a 500 has had significant issues with them unfortunately


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## Huntn

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> My step mother had a 2013 Fiat 500 automatic brand new and it developed a gearbox issue at 4.5k miles. Fiat decided at first to do absolutely nothing about it and suggested she pay £3k to have it fixed even though it was barely a year old. My dad threatened legal action and Fiat eventually offered to pay £1k towards the bill. She got it repaired and got rid of it. Sad as it was her dream car at the time but ended up being a complete nightmare.
> 
> Everybody I know who has had a 500 has had significant issues with them unfortunately



Wasn’t it still under warranty?

I’ve owned a bunch of vehicles and this is the first one that developed these kind of oil leaks at 50k miles. I wonder if this is a harbinger of the furture?     I’ll report back on what the bill would have been without a warranty.


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## The-Real-Deal82

Huntn said:


> Wasn’t it still under warranty?
> 
> I’ve owned a bunch of vehicles and this is the first one that developed these kind of oil leaks at 50k miles. I wonder if this is a harbinger of the furture?  I’ll report back on what the bill would have been without a warranty.




Sadly not. The gearbox was exempt and Fiat were appalling when dealing with it. 

Be interested to see the bill for yours.


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## DT

Umm ... dude ... ?









						ICE Vehicles:  General topics
					

OK, sure why not, I know we have much smaller numbers, but maybe this version won't be relentlessly littered with dumb ... :D




					talkedabout.com


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## DT

600 miles, still have 1/2 a tank of gas ... 

Since we bought the DD/RT outright at the end of the lease to sell, but haven't gotten the title yet, we used it on our trip to Orlando last week, figured, it's ours, insured, tagged, why not put those miles on the extra-extra car?

In fact, the DMV has been super slow with issuing titles, and we've got another Orlando trip planned in June, might just take it again   I mean, we absolutely will if we don't get the title a week or so before the trip.


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## The-Real-Deal82

DT said:


> Umm ... dude ... ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ICE Vehicles:  General topics
> 
> 
> OK, sure why not, I know we have much smaller numbers, but maybe this version won't be relentlessly littered with dumb ... :D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> talkedabout.com




I wondered why we didn’t have a car thread and now remember we actually do!!


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## Scepticalscribe

@Huntn, shall I move this thread into - or merge this thread with - the other car thread (which I had forgotten about) that @DT has drawn our attention to?


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## Huntn

Scepticalscribe said:


> @Huntn, shall I move this thread into - or merge this thread with - the other car thread (which I had forgotten about) that @DT has drawn our attention to?



Sure, I did a search on auto and car before starting this and nothing turned up.


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## Scepticalscribe

Huntn said:


> Sure, I did a search on auto and car before starting this and nothing turned up.




Okay: I'll merge it - move it - now.


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## Scepticalscribe

@Huntn, @Eric & @DT; The two car threads have been merged.


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## DT

Scepticalscribe said:


> @Huntn, @Eric & @DT; The two car threads have been merged.




Holy smokes, that made me dizzy ...


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## Scepticalscribe

DT said:


> Holy smokes, that made me dizzy ...



I had to work out how to do it - and also ensure that @Huntn was okay with it, as it made sense to merge them both; thanks for the heads-up.

Anyway: We're cool now.


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## DT

Huntn said:


> This car waited for 3 weeks to get parts. Now the interesting part, although warranty company approved the repair, in the process of disassembling the engine, they came across a bolt that has seized (I think it is in the vicinity of the camshaft) and they were worried that they would break a sprocket (?) and when they asked MOPAR, MOPAR would not cover this because “_the bolt as is was not broken_”. What the hell?




I've never heard of a warrantied repair having cost to the owner due to something breaking during the repair process.   It shouldn't even come up in the end customer discussion,  at __worst__ case you should get a call, "Hi, Mr. Huntn, during the repair we broke a crank bolt, so we'll need to keep in another day, we're next day shipping the replacement part".

Period.


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## Huntn

DT said:


> I've never heard of a warrantied repair having cost to the owner due to something breaking during the repair process.   It shouldn't even come up in the end customer discussion,  at __worst__ case you should get a call, "Hi, Mr. Huntn, during the repair we broke a crank bolt, so we'll need to keep in another day, we're next day shipping the replacement part".
> 
> Period.



@The-Real-Deal82  The 2012 Fiat 500 Saga continues.
*The Good News: *The dealer pushed the warranty company who agreed to pay the $50 for the broken bolt.

*The Bad News:* After putting the car engine back together they discovered that although the seals no longer leak, when it gets up to operating temperature the oil pressure drops to <4psi. Note before I took it to them, I was not getting a low oil pressure light. Then they took off the oil filter and discovered metal shavings. I spoke with the Service department manager who said things like they think the crankshaft is wandering, hence the metal savings. The described verdict: Catastrophic Failure, his words, they don’t do engine rebuilds, just engine replacements, about another 2 weeks in the shop. Waiting to see if MOPAR has a problem with this as it is their lifetime warranty. According to the manager this repair would run $7-8k.

*The Good News Part 2: *The warranty covers this kind of failure. My out of pocket cost should be the deductible $100.

I told the  Fiat Dealer Service manager that I was close to 70 years old, had owned many cars, and have never had a car engine self destruct at 50k miles. This business with a seized bolt leads me to speculate that this engine was not assembled properly at the factory, but fortunately, MOPAR, not me will end up eating it.


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## DT

Wow!  That's awesome!

Without an extended warranty, that would've probably meant just scrapping/selling for parts (I can't imagine sinking $8K into it).


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## DT

I think I'm going to return our 32a charger, love it, great price, has a slick display - but, we could use another 4' of cable when we back into the garage, and I think since I'm getting a 50a outlet anyway, I'll step up to a 40a charger.  The 4xe can only use 30a, but it would build in a little "future-proofing" for another EV.


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## Huntn

DT said:


> Wow!  That's awesome!
> 
> Without an extended warranty, that would've probably meant just scrapping/selling for parts (I can't imagine sinking $8K into it).



Yep, it would have been sold for whatever scrap gets, while if there had been no warranty, I’m wondering how inclined I‘d have been to pay for the work already done?  

This is a real eye opener as I am getting extended warranty mailers for both my 2013 Toyota and 2016 Miata.


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## DT

Returned, well virtually processed an Amazon return for the current charger, upgraded to a killer product from Canada, it's a Grizzl-E, incredible charger but super no frills, so ordered direct and got their new "smart" product which is a WiFi / OCPP, and upgrades the output to 40a (from 32a) and the cable to an ultra HD 24' cable (from the existing 20'), and less than $50 more than the current charger, pretty stoked.

The 4xe can't use more than 30a, but this gives us some growth room (and 20' was just a touch short if we backed in ...)

BTW, 4xe is like 4x4, i.e., "4 by E"  *snicker*


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## shadow puppet

I would like a ride please.  Can any of you help me out?


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## User.168

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## Huntn

Hybrid is the near future as far as a standard vehicle. I don’t see all electric cars being standard until there are a ton of infrastructure and battery improvements. Who will sit around waiting for their batteries to recharge? At one point I thought they might be able to swap batteries, but they are just too expensive,  massive and integrated, at least that is my impression.


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## Huntn

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> Sadly not. The gearbox was exempt and Fiat were appalling when dealing with it.
> 
> Be interested to see the bill for yours.



That sounds chicken shit regarding  the gearbox. Exempt From warranty? Most of the new cars I’m aware of have bumper to bumper warranties for 2-4 years.

Of possible interest when I bought my 1975 Fiat Spider in 1975  I asked around before hand  and it was a 50-50 split between loving it and warning me about maintenance issues. I jumped on it, it was a beautiful car, and never had issues with it, selling it in 1982 before heading to Guam for 3 years In the USN to fly EP-3 spy planes.


----------



## User.45

theSeb said:


> My Nissan truck is now 9 years old and I have been patiently waiting for someone to release a hybrid truck in Europe and I am getting tired of waiting. Also, I won't really need a truck to carry hay etc anymore, so I've started thinking about getting a "run-around" electric SUV type vehicle. The VW ID.4 looked like a possibility, but then I found out about the upcoming Hyundai Ioniq and I really dig it. I could purchase this for me as a company vehicle, since the company car tax is super low and it makes sense from a company tax efficiency point of view as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Discover the Hyundai IONIQ 5 | New Electric CUV | Hyundai UK
> 
> 
> The IONIQ 5 is designed for the future with ground-breaking technology, premium comfort and made from sustainable materials. See its pricing, features and specs today!
> 
> 
> 
> www.hyundai.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5074



As an EV owner (BMW i3), I'd say it all depends on your needs, access to charging, climate, budget etc.

The questions you need to ask yourself for an EV:
1. Is this going to be a primary or secondary car?
2. Do you have access to overnight charging?
3. How cold do winters get where you'll use it. (Subzero temps usually eat 30-40% of range due to higher air density, and huge energy demand on heating).
4. Can you wait 2-3 more years, when Subaru, Toyota, Honda, Ford will come out with their EVs. Moore's law kinda applies to cars...Battery capacity/pricing was cut in half every 2 years. I think the new standard range is about 240mi, so in 2 years you could either get something in the 400mi range, or buy something nearly half the price. And this applies to used EVs. BMW's i3 pricing is a joke at like 60K, but you can now buy one for ~15K. These don't hold value and won't until the market is saturated. Tesla keeps their prices up through their tech edge (model 3 shortage before, now being the only EV maker with 7 seater in a $50K range).


----------



## DT

theSeb said:


> My Nissan truck is now 9 years old and I have been patiently waiting for someone to release a hybrid truck in Europe and I am getting tired of waiting. Also, I won't really need a truck to carry hay etc anymore, so I've started thinking about getting a "run-around" electric SUV type vehicle. The VW ID.4 looked like a possibility, but then I found out about the upcoming Hyundai Ioniq and I really dig it. I could purchase this for me as a company vehicle, since the company car tax is super low and it makes sense from a company tax efficiency point of view as well.




I really dig on the IONIQ design. Hyundai (and Kia) have been kicking ass for the last few years, Korea is now setting car standards and trends (not so much Japan at the moment ...)


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> I really dig on the IONIQ design. Hyundai (and Kia) have been kicking ass for the last few years, Korea is now setting car standards and trends (not so much Japan at the moment ...)



New Hyundais are surprisingly good. Plus they now have plenty of EV experience...unlike Toyota. So Ioniq 5 will be a good car, but no matter how much urge I feel to pull the trigger on a new EV, my wallet always reminds me to wait a little because it's a BAAAAD investment right now.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> As an EV owner (BMW i3), I'd say it all depends on your needs, access to charging, climate, budget etc.
> 
> The questions you need to ask yourself for an EV:
> 1. Is this going to be a primary or secondary car?
> 2. Do you have access to overnight charging?
> 3. How cold do winters get where you'll use it. (Subzero temps usually eat 30-40% of range due to higher air density, and huge energy demand on heating).
> 4. Can you wait 2-3 more years, when Subaru, Toyota, Honda, Ford will come out with their EVs. Moore's law kinda applies to cars...Battery capacity/pricing was cut in half every 2 years. I think the new standard range is about 240mi, so in 2 years you could either get something in the 400mi range, or buy something nearly half the price. And this applies to used EVs. BMW's i3 pricing is a joke at like 60K, but you can now buy one for ~15K. These don't hold value and won't until the market is saturated. Tesla keeps their prices up through their tech edge (model 3 shortage before, now being the only EV maker with 7 seater in a $50K range).




Yeah, those are good discussion points, #2 is especially notable - recently there was an article about people returning to ICE from EV, several factors, but a big one was lack of home charging (huge majority of people polled lived in apartments).

I'd agree on the standard, well, standard-ISH range being 240 to maybe 250/260, with the "really good" current ranges in the 300-330 (a few the more mid/upper 300s), then a few models (some very premium) with 400+ due out 2022   Of course, that consideration is in combination with charging, speed, home availability, etc.

Here's a current chart from an EV site (well, neat, that C&P'ed nicely ...), ranges, models, availability:


*Electric Vehicle**EPA est. Range**Release Date*Tesla Model S Plaid+520+ milesMid 2022Lucid Air Grand Touring517 milesLate 2021 (TBC)Lucid Air Dream Edition503 milesSecond half 2021Tesla Cybertruck Tri Motor500+ milesLate 2021Tesla Model S Long Range412 milesSept/Oct 2021Lucid Air Touring406 milesLate 2021 (TBC)Tesla Model S Plaid390 milesAug/Sept 2021Tesla Model X Long Range360 milesJan/Feb 2022Tesla Model 3 Long Range353 miles*Available*Tesla Model X Plaid340 milesJan/Feb 2022Tesla Model Y Long Range326 miles*Available*Tesla Model 3 Performance315 miles*Available*Ford Mustang Mach-E CA Route 1 Edition305 miles*Available*Tesla Model Y Performance303 miles*Available*Rivian R1T Launch Edition300+ milesJune 2021Rivian R1S Launch Edition300+ milesAugust 2021Tesla Cybertruck Dual Motor300+ milesLate 2021Ford Mustang Mach-E Premium300 miles*Available*Ford Mustang Mach-E First Edition270 miles*Available*Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus263 miles*Available*Chevy Bolt EV (2021)259 miles*Available*Chevy Bolt (2022)259 milesSummer 2021Hyundai Kona Electric258 miles*Available*Lordstown Motors Endurance250+ milesSeptember 2021Volkswagen ID.4250 miles*Available*Chevy Bolt EUV (2022)250 milesSummer 2021Polestar 2233 miles*Available*Ford Mustang Mach-E Select211 miles*Available*Ford Mustang Mach-E GT250 milesEnd of summer 2021Tesla Model Y Standard Range244 miles*Available*Kia Nero EV239 miles*Available*Audi e-tron GT238 miles*Summer 2021Jaguar I-Pace234 miles*Available*Audi RS e-tron GT232 miles*Summer 2021Porsche Taycan 4S227 miles*Available*Nissan Leaf Plus226 miles*Available*Audi e-tron222 miles*Available*Porsche Taycan Turbo212 miles*Available*Volvo XC40 Recharge208 miles*Available*Porsche Taycan Turbo S201 miles*Available*BMW i3 & i3s w/ range extender200 miles*Available*Hyundai Ioniq Electric170 miles*Available*BMW i3 & i3s153 miles*Available*MINI Cooper Electric110 miles*Available*


Tesla obviously has a big advantage on charging, being able to use any charger, including their own (and Superchargers where available).

I'm just idling, waiting to see what happens with the Fed Tax credit and/or any other incentives, something hits in the area of $7K, I'll start shopping, it drops at $10K, I'm ordering the same day


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> Yeah, those are good discussion points, #2 is especially notable - recently there was an article about people returning to ICE from EV, several factors, but a big one was lack of home charging (huge majority of people polled lived in apartments).
> 
> I'd agree on the standard, well, standard-ISH range being 240 to maybe 250/260, with the "really good" current ranges in the 300-330 (a few the more mid/upper 300s), then a few models (some very premium) with 400+ due out 2022   Of course, that consideration is in combination with charging, speed, home availability, etc.
> 
> Here's a current chart from an EV site (well, neat, that C&P'ed nicely ...), ranges, models, availability:
> 
> 
> *Electric Vehicle**EPA est. Range**Release Date*Tesla Model S Plaid+520+ milesMid 2022Lucid Air Grand Touring517 milesLate 2021 (TBC)Lucid Air Dream Edition503 milesSecond half 2021Tesla Cybertruck Tri Motor500+ milesLate 2021Tesla Model S Long Range412 milesSept/Oct 2021Lucid Air Touring406 milesLate 2021 (TBC)Tesla Model S Plaid390 milesAug/Sept 2021Tesla Model X Long Range360 milesJan/Feb 2022Tesla Model 3 Long Range353 miles*Available*Tesla Model X Plaid340 milesJan/Feb 2022Tesla Model Y Long Range326 miles*Available*Tesla Model 3 Performance315 miles*Available*Ford Mustang Mach-E CA Route 1 Edition305 miles*Available*Tesla Model Y Performance303 miles*Available*Rivian R1T Launch Edition300+ milesJune 2021Rivian R1S Launch Edition300+ milesAugust 2021Tesla Cybertruck Dual Motor300+ milesLate 2021Ford Mustang Mach-E Premium300 miles*Available*Ford Mustang Mach-E First Edition270 miles*Available*Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus263 miles*Available*Chevy Bolt EV (2021)259 miles*Available*Chevy Bolt (2022)259 milesSummer 2021Hyundai Kona Electric258 miles*Available*Lordstown Motors Endurance250+ milesSeptember 2021Volkswagen ID.4250 miles*Available*Chevy Bolt EUV (2022)250 milesSummer 2021Polestar 2233 miles*Available*Ford Mustang Mach-E Select211 miles*Available*Ford Mustang Mach-E GT250 milesEnd of summer 2021Tesla Model Y Standard Range244 miles*Available*Kia Nero EV239 miles*Available*Audi e-tron GT238 miles*Summer 2021Jaguar I-Pace234 miles*Available*Audi RS e-tron GT232 miles*Summer 2021Porsche Taycan 4S227 miles*Available*Nissan Leaf Plus226 miles*Available*Audi e-tron222 miles*Available*Porsche Taycan Turbo212 miles*Available*Volvo XC40 Recharge208 miles*Available*Porsche Taycan Turbo S201 miles*Available*BMW i3 & i3s w/ range extender200 miles*Available*Hyundai Ioniq Electric170 miles*Available*BMW i3 & i3s153 miles*Available*MINI Cooper Electric110 miles*Available*
> 
> 
> Tesla obviously has a big advantage on charging, being able to use any charger, including their own (and Superchargers where available).
> 
> I'm just idling, waiting to see what happens with the Fed Tax credit and/or any other incentives, something hits in the area of $7K, I'll start shopping, it drops at $10K, I'm ordering the same day



Yup the issue with this chart is for that extra 100 miles over 240 comes for a premium that would cover the cost of a second car, like a hybrid.
Tesla doesn't have the 7K federal incentive anymore, Rivian and Lucid are not marketed yet. For Mach E you do pay 20K extra for the longer range.  A used nissan leaf 2 may be a good deal these days. I'm thinking about swapping battery in my i3 for the 200 mi version. Would still be cheaper than buying a new car and I think there is no better city cruiser than it with its 16Ft turn radius.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> Yup the issue with this chart is for that extra 100 miles over 240 comes for a premium that would cover the cost of a second car, like a hybrid.
> Tesla doesn't have the 7K federal incentive anymore, Rivian and Lucid are not marketed yet. For Mach E you do pay 20K extra for the longer range.  A used nissan leaf 2 may be a good deal these days. I'm thinking about swapping battery in my i3 for the 200 mi version. Would still be cheaper than buying a new car and I think there is no better city cruiser than it with its 16Ft turn radius.




A price column would be interesting (and even a price/range ratio ...).  The Fed credit is definitely coming back, at a minimum, $7K (vs. the $7.5K we just got), but lots of talk of more, and/or a supplement scaled additional credit.  Also talk of more cars per manufacturer, or even some kind of duration based incentives (so a manufacturer wouldn't "run out" at X units sold).

I'm probably going to lease my next car as well, so I won't worry about long-er term TCO, warranty, etc., 3 years and done. 

Keep in mind my vehicles are also sort of my hobbie vs. just straight transportation, so with an EV, I'd get something fast and fun like a Model 3 Performance, do up some aftermarket on it (carbon aero, wheels, etc..)


----------



## DT

Something like so (this is HAF !):


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## SuperMatt

If you have a place you can regularly charge an EV, any range over 200 is going to be more than enough. Any more is pure luxury; if you decide you want to take long road trips, you'd have to stop less often. 99% of the time, 99% of people will not drive over 200 miles in one day.


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## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> If you have a place you can regularly charge an EV, any range over 200 is going to be more than enough. Any more is pure luxury; if you decide you want to take long road trips, you'd have to stop less often. 99% of the time, 99% of people will not drive over 200 miles in one day.



Yup. The formula is

Range * DCA * WP - DC

DCA = Daily Charging access ≤ 1 (where 1 = being able to charge every day, e.g. at home).
WP = Winter penalty ≤ 1 (usually ~0.5-0.8)
DC = daily commute (less than 40 mi for the average american).

The charging rate factor is ignored, as I assume here that you are able to fully charge on a charging session.

So if you have a care with a 240 mile range, only able to charge twice a week and get 10 degree winters, the equation would kinda like this on the worst day:

240 * 0.3 * 0.5 = 36. That's your daily commute that you'd be able to do without much planning forward.

If you lived in Atlanta and could charge at home the same car would allow you to have a 192 mile daily commute including winters. 
(240*1*0.8 = 192)


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## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> Yup. The formula is
> 
> Range * DCA * WP - DC
> 
> DCA = Daily Charging access ≤ 1 (where 1 = being able to charge every day, e.g. at home).
> WP = Winter penalty ≤ 1 (usually ~0.5-0.8)
> DC = daily commute (less than 40 mi for the average american).
> 
> The charging rate factor is ignored, as I assume here that you are able to fully charge on a charging session.



I find that people confuse the charging of an EV with gassing up a car. If you want to make that analogy, imagine that you have a gas pump at home and you’re always starting the morning with a full tank. Even if that tank can only get you 100 miles, if it’s full every morning, you’re generally not going to have any issues.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I find that people confuse the charging of an EV with gassing up a car. If you want to make that analogy, imagine that you have a gas pump at home and you’re always starting the morning with a full tank. Even if that tank can only get you 100 miles, if it’s full every morning, you’re generally not going to have any issues.



I could add battery degradation to that equation too, which was about 25-30% for my care that is about 6 years old. So like 5% a year.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> I could add battery degradation to that equation too, which was about 25-30% for my care that is about 6 years old. So like 5% a year.



I park in an underground garage and the climate is not very cold here, so I’ve had very little degradation in 5 years. I don’t know how that compares to your situation.

One thing to consider: my VW has an 8-year warranty on the battery, and I believe 30% degradation is considered a failure and would allow for a replacement under the warranty.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I park in an underground garage and the climate is not very cold here, so I’ve had very little degradation in 5 years. I don’t know how that compares to your situation.
> 
> One thing to consider: my VW has an 8-year warranty on the battery, and I believe 30% degradation is considered a failure and would allow for a replacement under the warranty.



Good thought. Maybe I should get mine checked.


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> If you have a place you can regularly charge an EV, any range over 200 is going to be more than enough. Any more is pure luxury; if you decide you want to take long road trips, you'd have to stop less often. 99% of the time, 99% of people will not drive over 200 miles in one day.




Yeah, I've done a bit speculative use via ABRP, you know, picked a car, plugged in a few of our common destinations - granted there's some real world factors that aren't part of those estimates - but three of our most common trips using a '21 M3P calculate roughly like:

Home to Universal Studios, ~240 mile round trip, no stop needed, but free charging provided at the resorts (so 120 >> full charge >> 120 miles).  Home to our place in The Keys, ~400 miles, one 24 minute stop, and Home to the wife's Dad's house outside of Pittsburgh, one 24-26 minute stop,  overnight stay, full charge, another 24-26 minute stop, arrive, and that's ~850 miles.  That's also with stopping locations with fairly high densities of charging locations to account for them being busy / unavailable, and good locations for supplies, bathrooms, etc.

My typical operating area?  Geez, I could probably go 2 weeks without a charge.

Getting our 50a N6-50 installed tomorrow, and the replacement 40a charger is on the way (though the 4xe will only be charging at 30a ...)


----------



## DT

DT said:


> Getting our 50a N6-50 installed tomorrow, and the replacement 40a charger is on the way (though the 4xe will only be charging at 30a ...)




Install guys knocked that right out, they had to come back with the correct receptacle, but it'll all done, looks great, works as expected   Also got confirmation we __do__ have 200a service.

So this is terrific, we have a 50a, 240v 6-50 outlet on the back wall of the garage (right next to the breaker panel), so when the new charger shows up, I'll have up to 40a charging for the 4xe and any other car that winds up in the garage that needs to be charged


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.45

theSeb said:


> It's an interesting conundrum in my view. On the one hand it seems that a hybrid with a petrol engine and around a 30 mile battery range would be perfect for my needs and for most people too. This way I could use it exclusively on battery to run around near home to go shopping and so forth and take advantage of the wonderfully wide parking bays with free charging offered by certain supermarkets in my area.
> 
> But, as with everything, one cannot have their cake and eat it too. Hybrids potentially introduce more complexity, weight, reliability questions and service charges. I certainly would not purchase one second hand looking at how they operate. When you set off it will be on battery for most people until they get to a faster dual carriage way road or highway/freeway/motorway. This is when many people will put their foot down to accelerate waking up the petrol engine probably for the first time. The engine is completely cold and needs to kick into action (none of the hybrids from the popular brands currently make any attempts to preheat the engine or oil).
> 
> This sounds like a recipe for disaster in the long term to me, yet the manufacturers seem to encourage this sort of driving pattern. To me this is a game purely to reduce their fleet emissions and they obviously do not care what happens to these vehicles once the warranty has expired.
> 
> There is also an element of wanting to be tax efficient. With the way car company tax works in the UK, even a hybrid will cost me more than I feel like paying. So I only really have a choice between a 1 tonne pickup truck, or a full EV, for various and boring reasons for this vehicle.
> 
> Zero annual road tax, low company vehicle tax, low running and servicing costs are all mighty appealing and have made me truly consider getting an EV for the daily runabout. When I do have to commute it's either a few miles to the train station to get to London, or 90 miles to get to Heathrow Airport. Occasionally I commute about 180 - 200 miles to do some stuff in the "midlands" area of the UK, but this is a trip up on a Monday and a trip back on a Thursday, or Friday. The charging infrastructure already present will meet my needs and it's only going to keep growing.
> 
> 
> 
> I do indeed have access to overnight charging and I have considered how I would use the car. I am lucky enough to have a few other cars. This would very be much be the family beater car that I'll not care about where I park and if it gets dinged, or scratched by Joe Moron. I have also played around with a better route planner and an EV like a VW ID.4 would get me to ski resorts in France and Austria with only a few hours extra over an ICE powered vehicle. That would be the longest journeys it would be used for because the thought of taking a nice onto the salted / gritted roads gives me the shivers. Sure, there are real world elements at play, but the majority of such a journey would be in well above freezing temperatures anyway. As long as I can get around 200 miles of range within 30 minutes on a fast charger, or less, I am happy.
> 
> I live in a very mild part of the south of England by the coast. We even have palm trees that thrive in the area. I am not too concerned about the cold weather impacts on range.
> 
> View attachment 5102
> 
> I could probably wait, but I am getting tired of servicing the Nissan, especially at this point, since more and more stuff needs replacing every year.
> 
> 
> We have a bit of a soft spot for Hyundai. We had a 2004 Santa Fe 2.7 V6 with offroad white lettered tires that the wife used as the "dirty" car to go the stables and so forth for about 13 years. It was damn ugly, but had a heart of gold, never let us down, and was just as comfortable as something like a Range Rover Sport.



Range Extenders kinda solve some of the issue. My I3 can do 80 extra mile on gas and I can refuel in a min. It doesn't kick in unless you either tell it (battery has to be <80%) or if you're battery is down (<6mi). But it's a small car, fitting 4 people and definitely not enough room for your ski equipment, unless you lay a seat flat reducing the seating capacity to 3.


----------



## User.45

,


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

P_X said:


> New Hyundais are surprisingly good. Plus they now have plenty of EV experience...unlike Toyota. So Ioniq 5 will be a good car, but no matter how much urge I feel to pull the trigger on a new EV, my wallet always reminds me to wait a little because it's a BAAAAD investment right now.



A chap I know had a Hyundai Ioniq here in the UK and it was quite problematic and the range was inconsistent. He decided to get rid of it after a recall. The local Hereford garage lost its electrical specialists after they walked out and he had a pointless drive down to Bristol to the next nearest dealer to sort it out and had to leave it there and get a 3 hour train journey home. He couldn’t find a garage nearer than northern England who would accept an electric Hyundai as a part ex which is very interesting. I don’t think the technology is quite there yet and the infrastructure certainly isn’t. Charge times are too long too. You need to be able to fully charge a car in the time it takes to refuel really. 


SuperMatt said:


> If you have a place you can regularly charge an EV, any range over 200 is going to be more than enough. Any more is pure luxury; if you decide you want to take long road trips, you'd have to stop less often. 99% of the time, 99% of people will not drive over 200 miles in one day.



I assume the 99% is private owners and not cars on the road in general? I know our sales teams do more than 200 miles in a day and probably the reason businesses haven’t gone to full electric just yet despite the tax incentives. If I do the trip I am doing next week to see my mum, there and back is just over 200 miles. I’m holding off going down the electric route until it’s forced on us I think.


----------



## Huntn

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> A chap I know had a Hyundai Ioniq here in the UK and it was quite problematic and the range was inconsistent. He decided to get rid of it after a recall. The local Hereford garage lost its electrical specialists after they walked out and he had a pointless drive down to Bristol to the next nearest dealer to sort it out and had to leave it there and get a 3 hour train journey home. He couldn’t find a garage nearer than northern England who would accept an electric Hyundai as a part ex which is very interesting. I don’t think the technology is quite there yet and the infrastructure certainly isn’t. Charge times are too long too. You need to be able to fully charge a car in the time it takes to refuel really.
> 
> I assume the 99% is private owners and not cars on the road in general? I know our sales teams do more than 200 miles in a day and probably the reason businesses haven’t gone to full electric just yet despite the tax incentives. If I do the trip I am doing next week to see my mum, there and back is just over 200 miles. I’m holding off going down the electric route until it’s forced on us I think.



How many hours does it take to charge an EV? I’d think this would mitigate demanding these  kinds of vehicles until the batteries are improved. Would they basically outlaw long distant driving?


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> How many hours does it take to charge an EV? I’d think this would mitigate demanding these  kinds of vehicles until the batteries are improved. Would they basically outlaw long distant driving?




Most of the "EV Only" targets being discussed are still several years out, and that's just manufacturing.  I'd imagine the cycle of phasing out the option to own one to be __way__ longer.

In terms of charging, it depends on the charger and the car, but I've done analysis with a Model 3 Performance, using A Better Route Planner, see my post here:









						ICE Vehicles:  General topics
					

Hybrid is the near future as far as a standard vehicle. I don’t see all electric cars being standard until there are a ton of infrastructure and battery improvements. Who will sit around waiting for their batteries to recharge? At one point I thought they might be able to swap batteries, but...




					talkedabout.com
				




A Model 3 Long Range does 353 miles, and yes, there are several factors that affect that range, but if it'll do ~90% of that, call it 320 miles, that's a round trip worth of mileage for a huge number of people, and certainly a ton of mileage one way, with one incremental charging stop of ~20-25 minutes, and then one "sleepover" stop for 100% the next morning.  The replacement 40a charger I'm getting for the 4xe will charge a TM3 Performance at ~37/miles an hour, that's an overnight charge at home for 315 miles of range .

I've been a very vocal skeptic about an EV, I'm a gearhead, but once you get past the "ICE psychology" and start __really__ thinking about your use cases, you might realize it would work for you.  Sure, I can come up with dozens of scenarios where an EV doesn't work, but they either don't apply to me (no home charging) or are some kind of nonsense use (1000+ mile non-sleepover trip).

I was thinking about my local-but-longer-ish driving, like the one local client, they're about 35 miles away, so 70 round to back home.  That mileage I could replenish back at home in a couple of hours - and I think that's an important thing to consider:  much day-today use is not 100% to empty, it's, 5-25% type consumption.  You come home, you plugin, it takes 30-40 seconds, so you're always replenishing your "fuel"


----------



## Huntn

DT said:


> Most of the "EV Only" targets being discussed are still several years out, and that's just manufacturing.  I'd imagine the cycle of phasing out the option to own one to be __way__ longer.
> 
> In terms of charging, it depends on the charger and the car, but I've done analysis with a Model 3 Performance, using A Better Route Planner, see my post here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ICE Vehicles:  General topics
> 
> 
> Hybrid is the near future as far as a standard vehicle. I don’t see all electric cars being standard until there are a ton of infrastructure and battery improvements. Who will sit around waiting for their batteries to recharge? At one point I thought they might be able to swap batteries, but...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> talkedabout.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Model 3 Long Range does 353 miles, and yes, there are several factors that affect that range, but if it'll do ~90% of that, call it 320 miles, that's a round trip worth of mileage for a huge number of people, and certainly a ton of mileage one way, with one incremental charging stop of ~20-25 minutes, and then one "sleepover" stop for 100% the next morning.  The replacement 40a charger I'm getting for the 4xe will charge a TM3 Performance at ~37/miles an hour, that's an overnight charge at home for 315 miles of range .
> 
> I've been a very vocal skeptic about an EV, I'm a gearhead, but once you get past the "ICE psychology" and start __really__ thinking about your use cases, you might realize it would work for you.  Sure, I can come up with dozens of scenarios where an EV doesn't work, but they either don't apply to me (no home charging) or are some kind of nonsense use (1000+ mile non-sleepover trip).
> 
> I was thinking about my local-but-longer-ish driving, like the one local client, they're about 35 miles away, so 70 round to back home.  That mileage I could replenish back at home in a couple of hours - and I think that's an important thing to consider:  much day-today use is not 100% to empty, it's, 5-25% type consumption.  You come home, you plugin, it takes 30-40 seconds, so you're always replenishing your "fuel"



I wonder what the car charging does to the electric bill? I have 3 pool pumps, one runs about 8 hours, another 4 hours daily, a third on occasion to run the water falls and I project they add about $70/month to my electric bill.


----------



## SuperMatt

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> A chap I know had a Hyundai Ioniq here in the UK and it was quite problematic and the range was inconsistent. He decided to get rid of it after a recall. The local Hereford garage lost its electrical specialists after they walked out and he had a pointless drive down to Bristol to the next nearest dealer to sort it out and had to leave it there and get a 3 hour train journey home. He couldn’t find a garage nearer than northern England who would accept an electric Hyundai as a part ex which is very interesting. I don’t think the technology is quite there yet and the infrastructure certainly isn’t. Charge times are too long too. You need to be able to fully charge a car in the time it takes to refuel really.
> 
> I assume the 99% is private owners and not cars on the road in general? I know our sales teams do more than 200 miles in a day and probably the reason businesses haven’t gone to full electric just yet despite the tax incentives. If I do the trip I am doing next week to see my mum, there and back is just over 200 miles. I’m holding off going down the electric route until it’s forced on us I think.



I am an American so I’m basing it on America. You can see the details from 2017 below, and miles driven per day on average have gone down steadily since 2001. In 2017, the average was *29 miles per day*. Personally-owned vehicles vastly outnumber “company cars” too, so anything done with business fleets is going to be an outlier.





__





						National Household Travel Survey Daily Travel Quick Facts | Bureau of Transportation Statistics
					

Daily Travel is a trip from one point to another on a single day.




					www.bts.gov
				




Fully charging a car with current battery tech in 5 minutes is not feasible. And the EV model that was going to try and follow the “gas it up” model never even made a dent in the market. That would be the hydrogen vehicle. Being able to charge at home is much more convenient than gassing up. I just plug it in when I get home and forget about it. Never have to think about looking for a gas station.

The anti-EV road trip argument is a popular one, but most people take very, very few road trips beyond the capacity of an average EV. Even the 200 mile round trip to see grandma - your grandma presumably has electricity at her house? You could plug the car in while you’re there on a simple 120V line and get at least some range back during your stay.


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> I wonder what the car charging does to the electric bill? I have 3 pool pumps, one runs about 8 hours, another 4 hours daily, a third on occasion to run the water falls and I project they add about $70/month to my electric bill.




It's pretty easy to calculate, our effective rate is ~$0.10 / kWh so a full charge on our 4xe costs $1.73, and that'll get us about 30 miles around town.  Lowest octane (87) at the pump around here is $2.80/gal, so a car getting 30MPG would cost $1.61 more - or - the 4xe is the cost equivalent of ~49MPG.

While keeping mind it's 375HP and 470 lb/ft of TQ 

Also, I know a few people that have a TOU (Time Of Use) account, where their off peak is like 30% the standard rate, so the same calculation above the 30 mile charge would only $0.52 - the downside being the on-peak time is 2x the cost, so you have to look at a decent amount of usage history to see if that's an effective billing model (a short review of our data over 2 weeks only showed about a 15-20% cost reduction, but that's without a BEV in the mix).


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

SuperMatt said:


> I am an American so I’m basing it on America. You can see the details from 2017 below, and miles driven per day on average have gone down steadily since 2001. In 2017, the average was *29 miles per day*. Personally-owned vehicles vastly outnumber “company cars” too, so anything done with business fleets is going to be an outlier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> National Household Travel Survey Daily Travel Quick Facts | Bureau of Transportation Statistics
> 
> 
> Daily Travel is a trip from one point to another on a single day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bts.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fully charging a car with current battery tech in 5 minutes is not feasible. And the EV model that was going to try and follow the “gas it up” model never even made a dent in the market. That would be the hydrogen vehicle. Being able to charge at home is much more convenient than gassing up. I just plug it in when I get home and forget about it. Never have to think about looking for a gas station.
> 
> The anti-EV road trip argument is a popular one, but most people take very, very few road trips beyond the capacity of an average EV. Even the 200 mile round trip to see grandma - your grandma presumably has electricity at her house? You could plug the car in while you’re there on a simple 120V line and get at least some range back during your stay.




I think we are way off being prepared over here and I would say a significant proportion of cars here are not privately owned too. The plug the car in at grandma’s idea works but would be rather unrealistic I think when busting people. The technology needs to improve fast for our 2030 deadline as we’ll need to import a hell of a lot more electricity from France and many more charging points than already exist. Not convinced yet and will hold out as long as reasonably possible .


----------



## DT

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> . If I do the trip I am doing next week to see my mum, there and back is just over 200 miles. I’m holding off going down the electric route until it’s forced on us I think.




I’d be curious to plot this on ABRP, can you post a start and end location, I mean, I wouldn’t want /or even suggest actual addresses, maybe just like close by store/business or general city/town name?


----------



## SuperMatt

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> I think we are way off being prepared over here and I would say a significant proportion of cars here are not privately owned too. The plug the car in at grandma’s idea works but would be rather unrealistic I think when busting people. The technology needs to improve fast for our 2030 deadline as we’ll need to import a hell of a lot more electricity from France and many more charging points than already exist. Not convinced yet and will hold out as long as reasonably possible .



Almost every EV owner I’ve talked to started with some level of “range anxiety” as you are feeling. Anybody who got over that hump and bought one found it was unwarranted within the first month.


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> Almost every EV owner I’ve talked to started with some level of “range anxiety” as you are feeling. Anybody who got over that hump and bought one found it was unwarranted within the first month.




I've made it there without even owning a BEV yet.  Seriously, just experiencing the PHEV, going through the steps to get a charger, reviewing electricity costs - and, assessing our use case, typical destinations, etc., via ABRP.


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

DT said:


> I’d be curious to plot this on ABRP, can you post a start and end location, I mean, I wouldn’t want /or even suggest actual addresses, maybe just like close by store/business or general city/town name?



Aberdare to Stratford Upon Avon. Lots of hills, stopping and starting with traffic on the newly congested A465. A real battery test. 






I’m going to Leatherhead soo too which is even further.


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

SuperMatt said:


> Almost every EV owner I’ve talked to started with some level of “range anxiety” as you are feeling. Anybody who got over that hump and bought one found it was unwarranted within the first month.



I only know a few people with EV’s and they still have that anxiety about range and the planning needed on trips where previously it was straightforward. This is probably why they have an EV and a diesel car as secondary vehicle. A friend of ours has a Tesla Model X and a 14 plate Ford Galaxy for weekends with his family. As I say the infrastructure just isn’t here to solely rely on them yet and the charging time can be too long. I don’t see that changing until you can fully charge a car in under 5 minutes.


----------



## DT

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> Aberdare to Stratford Upon Avon. Lots of hills, stopping and starting with traffic on the newly congested A465. A real battery test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’m going to Leatherhead soo too which is even further.




Oh fun! OK, I entered it into ABRP, the map plot looks the same, here's the trip using an M3P ...


----------



## DT

If you round trip it, i.e., add the starting as the final (making Stratford Upon Avon a "waypoint"), it shows 18% left, no stops:







Same plot but switching to an M3 Long Range (with 18" Aero Wheels):





You make the round trip with almost a __third__ of the charge left.


How about a VW ID.3 ?


----------



## DT

Or if you didn't want any stress on the way home, and wanted to arrive at Stratford Upon Avon with 90% charge, a little 3 minute deviation and 19 minute charge for 7 Euros, and you're GTG


----------



## DT

Holy Smokes, Ford really killed it with the new EV F150, aka, Ford Lightning.   Base model for $39K, nicely loaded for $55-60K,  optional battery config for 300+ miles, tows 10,000 lbs, has an automatic "frunk" that stores more than most CUVs, can power your house or dozens of tools at a camp / jobsite,  optional 15.5" display that can plan charging/range using integrated scale mechanisms.   563HP,  700 lb/ft TQ,  0-60 in ~4.4 seconds

I almost dropped a $100 on a pre-order for absolutely no reason


----------



## SuperMatt

DT said:


> Holy Smokes, Ford really killed it with the new EV F150, aka, Ford Lightning.   Base model for $39K, nicely loaded for $55-60K,  optional battery config for 300+ miles, tows 10,000 lbs, has an automatic "frunk" that stores more than most CUVs, can power your house or dozens of tools at a camp / jobsite,  optional 15.5" display that can plan charging/range using integrated scale mechanisms.   563HP,  700 lb/ft TQ,  0-60 in ~4.4 seconds
> 
> I almost dropped a $100 on a pre-order for absolutely no reason



I am so glad to see people other than Elon Musk making really good electric vehicles. I’ve said it before: I love my VW e-Golf. All they really did was take the existing Golf design and replace the drivetrain with a battery and electric motor. It handles really nicely, and looks exactly like a regular Golf, so nobody even knows I’m driving an EV unless they notice there’s no tailpipe.

Compare that to Tesla - expensive, showing-off, or Nissan Leaf - cheaply built, designed to intentionally look “different” so people know you are in the Sierra Club.

The F-150 looks like a truck... not some bizarro world armored vehicle like Elon Musk’s monstrosity. I think the Tesla cyber truck will fail because most truck buyers don’t want to be associated with Tesla’s typical customer base.

Just my 2 cents...


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> The F-150 looks like a truck... not some bizarro world armored vehicle like Elon Musk’s monstrosity. I think the Tesla cyber truck will fail because most truck buyers don’t want to be associated with Tesla’s typical customer base.
> 
> Just my 2 cents...




I'd say that's a solid $1.00 worth of commentary 

Totally agree.  This is a big moment: a hugely popular type of vehicle, with very specific capability requirements, under the badge of the most popular truck in the world, and with a design that moves forward while not alienating existing customers.


----------



## DT

Loving our 4xe (PHEV), but ready to add a BEV, so this is exciting:









						U.S. Senate panel advances EV tax credit of up to $12,500
					

The U.S. Senate Finance Committee advanced legislation on Wednesday that would boost electric vehicle tax credits to as much as $12,500 for EVs that are assembled by union workers in the United States.




					www.reuters.com
				












						EV tax credits jump to $12,500 in latest legislation -- with a catch
					

GM would be the big winner with the updated regulations, while Tesla would again receive some federal tax credits.




					www.cnet.com
				




This happens, I'm ordering an M3P


----------



## DT

Took the Mustang to an appointment today, it's been weeks since I've driven it, it was filthy inside and out, so spent some time cleaning it up early, before the sun/heat hit.


----------



## DT

Umm, if my primary CC records are correct (as I don't think I used a different card), the last time we put gas the 4xe was 3 weeks ago ... and it's still 98% full.


----------



## DT

DT said:


> Side note: I've told people that you can sell your leased car, they just want it paid off for the residual amount + outstanding payments. Well, we did a couple of buy offers (through Carvana for example), the DD is coming back $7500 over the buyout/residual  So instead of just handing over the keys, it's being sold, we pocket the money, on to the next lease.




OK, so ...

Because the DD/RT was within the last 30 days of the lease, a 3rd party couldn't do a dealer purchase, only the leasee, i.e., us, so about 6 weeks ago, we bought it outright, with the expectation of selling to Carvana, Vroom, etc., we figured at worst case, break even.

Then, since we had it, and were waiting on the title, and had a couple of Orlando trips planned, and it's insured, has a current registration, heck, we drove it both times.  the title took all that time, 6 weeks, they're apparently horribly backed up at the DSMV, plus, you know, Florida.

Well, the title showed up today, finally (I saw the title status change online last week, so figured it was inbound), we immediately hopped onto Carvana, processed it again, and even with the extra mileage it went up, by a decent amount, like instead of $7500, it's going to be right around $9K in our pocket.

Woot!

Uploaded docs/title, waiting on confirmation a day or two, then schedule a pickup.


----------



## quagmire

I will cross post here since this is the more appropriate thread. But picked up my 2021 Model 3 LR this morning. I had sold my 2017 Camaro SS back in April when the trade in value went from $23,000 in November to $37,000 at time of trade in to Carmax. Never thought I would sell the Camaro, but hey life is unpredictable! Put the order in for the Model 3 same day. I have never been a fan of white cars and if it was a flat white, I would have shelled out another $1000 for the blue or midnight silver metallic( red would actually would have been my second choice, but I refuse to spend $2000 on paint). But I love the metallic white paint on the Model 3 and it was free so win-win. I loved the white interior, but cleaning it scares me despite saying they are fairly stain resistant and easy to clean, but stuck with black.

I loved how it drove on the way home and had the Tesla Wall Connector installed back in April and worked flawlessly. Only issue upon delivery was a clip broke that held the plastic trim around the frame of the drivers seat so it is unsecured. They didn't have the part in stock so they ordered it and mobile tech will come out and fix it. Convenient anyway since I ordered the Homelink part and they will have to come out to install that so whatever as long as it is an easy fix. 

Anyway, just dropped it off at the PPF/Ceramic coating place. So Tesla-less at the moment once again. Getting the full front end done, side rockers, and full rear trunk in Xpel and then doing Ceramic Coating on top and everywhere else.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> I will cross post here since this is the more appropriate thread. But picked up my 2021 Model 3 LR this morning. I had sold my 2017 Camaro SS back in April when the trade in value went from $23,000 in November to $37,000 at time of trade in to Carmax. Never thought I would sell the Camaro, but hey life is unpredictable! Put the order in for the Model 3 same day. I have never been a fan of white cars and if it was a flat white, I would have shelled out another $1000 for the blue or midnight silver metallic( red would actually would have been my second choice, but I refuse to spend $2000 on paint). But I love the metallic white paint on the Model 3 and it was free so win-win. I loved the white interior, but cleaning it scares me despite saying they are fairly stain resistant and easy to clean, but stuck with black.
> 
> I loved how it drove on the way home and had the Tesla Wall Connector installed back in April and worked flawlessly. Only issue upon delivery was a clip broke that held the plastic trim around the frame of the drivers seat so it is unsecured. They didn't have the part in stock so they ordered it and mobile tech will come out and fix it. Convenient anyway since I ordered the Homelink part and they will have to come out to install that so whatever as long as it is an easy fix.
> 
> Anyway, just dropped it off at the PPF/Ceramic coating place. So Tesla-less at the moment once again. Getting the full front end done, side rockers, and full rear trunk in Xpel and then doing Ceramic Coating on top and everywhere else. View attachment 5968View attachment 5969View attachment 5970View attachment 5971



Congrats, beautiful car all the way around. Looking forward to a Tesla as my next purchase as well, I wanted to rollup my negative equity in my current car into the purchase of a new Tesla but they weren't having it, they said "we don't do that" so I went to the BMW and bought a 2020 5 series instead, because they "did do that". Once that lease is up though and I'm fully paid off I'll be getting the Tesla.


----------



## Clix Pix

Gee, all you guys with your expensive cars!    Well, that's OK, I love my modest little Honda Civic Sport Hatchback anyway!   LOL!


----------



## DT

DT said:


> Uploaded docs/title, waiting on confirmation a day or two, then schedule a pickup.




Pickup went smooth, made $9000 vs. just turning over the keys after the lease.

Having 3 cars forced me to sort out the garage, so it's great, now we have both cars in the garage - again (well, have since the Wrangler picked up a couple of months ago) - but still need to put up some new ceiling storage, clear out a few more things.

Jeep down to the point today, it's just so dang fun, so easy to toss in the SUP board, hit the low tide, paddle around ...

Gas part of the 4xe hasn't moved, going on like 4 weeks since we're 99% on battery when we use it


----------



## DT

OK, made a drive by type post about this, but figured I'd ramble about it a little in the appropriate thread 







I don't mind saying, that while it's dozens of different factors, coming together, @quagmire is not, NOT, some small part of it.  Actually several folks like him, who kind of had an epiphany, and that includes people - again, like me - who have a long history of performance cars / muscle / imports.

A guy just got his M3P delivered, and his previous cars were vehicles like a Hellcat, hahaha, he wrote this:



> I have previously owned several modified Hellcats, a Viper T/A, a Trackhawk, a C7 Grand Sport and an Alfa Romeo Giulia QV for good measure. Honestly... up until yesterday/today....I thought I had driven fast.




I had a 700+ HP Supra, a few Vettes, my two GTs, but mostly have been doing the convertible performance thing for the last 10+ years, but once we got the Wrangler, that scratched that itch.  Speaking of ...

The 4xe was a massive tip towards this decision, it just made me want to go all in.  With the 50a outlet (and a 40a charger) in the garage, we're set, and not going to gas station, and paying ~$1.50 for ~30 miles of range in the 4xe is just fucking fantastic.

For me, it was battery yard blower ...

Then I added some additional tools by Greenworks, a string trimmer, a pole saw, so nice, one pack for multiple tools and jobs.  Then, at the moment I needed some gas for the mower, I got a Woot ad for a Greenworks mower, yes, two packs, another charger, 60% discount, I'm all in!

And when the option for a PHEV came up to replace the DD/RT going off lease, one that would be quick, super fun (like be able to remove the top, drive through 30" of water ...) it was perfect, and then I was totally on track to go with a BEV to replace my car, it'll be a perfect match, a medium sized 4-door sedan, super high tech, nasty quick, full on BEV + a PHEV for when we need an ICE backup, and do the things it's superlative at doing.

More later


----------



## tranceking26

DT said:


> I had a 700+ HP Supra, a few Vettes



Mind sharing a few photos? Love all these heavily tuned Supra's. Not a fan of the newest one though tbh.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> OK, made a drive by type post about this, but figured I'd ramble about it a little in the appropriate thread
> 
> 
> View attachment 6000
> 
> 
> I don't mind saying, that while it's dozens of different factors, coming together, @quagmire is not, NOT, some small part of it.  Actually several folks like him, who kind of had an epiphany, and that includes people - again, like me - who have a long history of performance cars / muscle / imports.
> 
> A guy just got his M3P delivered, and his previous cars were vehicles like a Hellcat, hahaha, he wrote this:
> 
> 
> 
> I had a 700+ HP Supra, a few Vettes, my two GTs, but mostly have been doing the convertible performance thing for the last 10+ years, but once we got the Wrangler, that scratched that itch.  Speaking of ...
> 
> The 4xe was a massive tip towards this decision, it just made me want to go all in.  With the 50a outlet (and a 40a charger) in the garage, we're set, and not going to gas station, and paying ~$1.50 for ~30 miles of range in the 4xe is just fucking fantastic.
> 
> For me, it was battery yard blower ...
> 
> Then I added some additional tools by Greenworks, a string trimmer, a pole saw, so nice, one pack for multiple tools and jobs.  Then, at the moment I needed some gas for the mower, I got a Woot ad for a Greenworks mower, yes, two packs, another charger, 60% discount, I'm all in!
> 
> And when the option for a PHEV came up to replace the DD/RT going off lease, one that would be quick, super fun (like be able to remove the top, drive through 30" of water ...) it was perfect, and then I was totally on track to go with a BEV to replace my car, it'll be a perfect match, a medium sized 4-door sedan, super high tech, nasty quick, full on BEV + a PHEV for when we need an ICE backup, and do the things it's superlative at doing.
> 
> More later




Ha!

Congrats! Car Thread 2.0 will now turn into, " DT's complaining of where is his VIN" thread and will need Car Thread 3.0.  ( almost subtle joke, but man is it frustrating to see reddit and TMC filled with angry people over the EDD changing on a daily basis). Just set your expectation of delivery being September 30th, you will be fine.

I already miss my car after dropping it off at the PPF/Ceramic coating installer. But in the 20 miles that I drove it, I barely pressed the pedal maybe 40-50% down and I was blown away at the speed. Now mind you this was my actual first drive of the Long Range version. All of my drives in the Model 3 and Model Y have been the performance trim when I was test driving back in April. The performance version is just insane in acceleration, but Long Range is still no joke. Now add in the acceleration boost.....


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Ha!
> 
> Congrats! Car Thread 2.0 will now turn into, " DT's complaining of where is his VIN" thread and will need Car Thread 3.0.  ( almost subtle joke, but man is it frustrating to see reddit and TMC filled with angry people over the EDD changing on a daily basis). Just set your expectation of delivery being September 30th, you will be fine.
> 
> I already miss my car after dropping it off at the PPF/Ceramic coating installer. But in the 20 miles that I drove it, I barely pressed the pedal maybe 40-50% down and I was blown away at the speed. Now mind you this was my actual first drive of the Long Range version. All of my drives in the Model 3 and Model Y have been the performance trim when I was test driving back in April. The performance version is just insane in acceleration, but Long Range is still no joke. Now add in the acceleration boost.....




Yeah, I have zero expectations about delivery and actually hoping there's enough time for a new Tax Credit to kick in (if it's the one proposal, that could be as much as $10K).

The performance is pretty nuts, and it's a totally different feeling, especially when combined with the [relative] quietness.

Yours came with a J1772 adapter right?  My plan is to use our Grizzl-e charger with the Jeep and the Tesla, but it needs a J1772-to-Tesla adapter.  It's a 40a (on a 50a circuit), so that should hit ~35 miles per hour on charging.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Yeah, I have zero expectations about delivery and actually hoping there's enough time for a new Tax Credit to kick in (if it's the one proposal, that could be as much as $10K).
> 
> The performance is pretty nuts, and it's a totally different feeling, especially when combined with the [relative] quietness.
> 
> Yours came with a J1772 adapter right?  My plan is to use our Grizzl-e charger with the Jeep and the Tesla, but it needs a J1772-to-Tesla adapter.  It's a 40a (on a 50a circuit), so that should hit ~35 miles per hour on charging.




The nice thing about the tax credit bill is that it will remove the 200K vehicle cap on the current law and making it effective after May 24th for new deliveries. So if that language is maintained through signing, even I will be eligible for the $7500 tax credit. It going to $10K will be for deliveries after December 31st, 2021 as currently written. 

I think that is what I like about the performance of the Tesla's. It's a silent speedster that you don't expect it where a vehicle with a V8 or Turbo 6 cylinder, you expect speed with the noise( not complaining about the sound of an engine cause that is what I miss most about my Camaro is the sound of the V8). It doesn't handle as well as the Camaro, but still drives really well and not just a straight line machine. 

Yeah it comes with a J1772 adapter.


----------



## DT

Car went from, delivers in X days, to an actual date range, *July 07 - July 27*


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Car went from, delivers in X days, to an actual date range, *July 07 - July 27*




And it begins…..


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> And it begins…..





Just checked again, no change ...


----------



## bunnspecial

I'll be interested to see your Tesla impressions, @DT . It's no secret that I'm not a Tesla fan, but I've enjoyed seeing the comments from a few of the car guys who can look at it objectively and not be blinded by the brand. 

Glad to see yours is treating you well, @quagmire and will be interested to see your impressions as things go along. 

I'd be interested in going to an EV especially for my 30 mile commute to work. It gets even more attractive when you consider that we have charging stations there. None the less, it's a bit less than practical for me now since our 70 year old house has 100A service with 30A of it taken up by the AC and 4x 15A spread through the rest of the house(everything that can be-the stove, water heater, furnace, and dyer-is gas). I'm all for upgrading the power service, but for now that makes getting an EV less practical since I can't do a dedicated 240V charger. A PHEV might be an option also, but again probably not now. 

Meanwhile, I'm still piddling away with the MG, which may not be fast but is a heck of a lot of fun. Right now, I'm still SLOWLY finishing up what started out as an adventure fitting poly bushings to the rear end. It ended up with a lot of rear axle refresh work. I hope to finish it this week, but I'm waiting on my bubble flare tool to hopefully FINALLY run the rear brake lines I killed in taking things apart(and probably needed to be done a long time ago). I'm also fighting with getting one of the old rubber bushings out.


----------



## SuperMatt

bunnspecial said:


> I'll be interested to see your Tesla impressions, @DT . It's no secret that I'm not a Tesla fan, but I've enjoyed seeing the comments from a few of the car guys who can look at it objectively and not be blinded by the brand.
> 
> Glad to see yours is treating you well, @quagmire and will be interested to see your impressions as things go along.
> 
> I'd be interested in going to an EV especially for my 30 mile commute to work. It gets even more attractive when you consider that we have charging stations there. None the less, it's a bit less than practical for me now since our 70 year old house has 100A service with 30A of it taken up by the AC and 4x 15A spread through the rest of the house(everything that can be-the stove, water heater, furnace, and dyer-is gas). I'm all for upgrading the power service, but for now that makes getting an EV less practical since I can't do a dedicated 240V charger. A PHEV might be an option also, but again probably not now.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm still piddling away with the MG, which may not be fast but is a heck of a lot of fun. Right now, I'm still SLOWLY finishing up what started out as an adventure fitting poly bushings to the rear end. It ended up with a lot of rear axle refresh work. I hope to finish it this week, but I'm waiting on my bubble flare tool to hopefully FINALLY run the rear brake lines I killed in taking things apart(and probably needed to be done a long time ago). I'm also fighting with getting one of the old rubber bushings out.



I have a 100-mile range EV (2016 VW e-Golf) and I use it for commuting. I use it with a regular 120V plug. It charges slowly, but fast enough for my needs. I’ve also found very little battery degradation in my 5 years of ownership, perhaps from only using the slow charging. If your average is 60 miles a day, you will be fine starting out with the slow charging from the 120V


----------



## quagmire

bunnspecial said:


> I'll be interested to see your Tesla impressions, @DT . It's no secret that I'm not a Tesla fan, but I've enjoyed seeing the comments from a few of the car guys who can look at it objectively and not be blinded by the brand.
> 
> Glad to see yours is treating you well, @quagmire and will be interested to see your impressions as things go along.
> 
> I'd be interested in going to an EV especially for my 30 mile commute to work. It gets even more attractive when you consider that we have charging stations there. None the less, it's a bit less than practical for me now since our 70 year old house has 100A service with 30A of it taken up by the AC and 4x 15A spread through the rest of the house(everything that can be-the stove, water heater, furnace, and dyer-is gas). I'm all for upgrading the power service, but for now that makes getting an EV less practical since I can't do a dedicated 240V charger. A PHEV might be an option also, but again probably not now.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm still piddling away with the MG, which may not be fast but is a heck of a lot of fun. Right now, I'm still SLOWLY finishing up what started out as an adventure fitting poly bushings to the rear end. It ended up with a lot of rear axle refresh work. I hope to finish it this week, but I'm waiting on my bubble flare tool to hopefully FINALLY run the rear brake lines I killed in taking things apart(and probably needed to be done a long time ago). I'm also fighting with getting one of the old rubber bushings out.




Will do.

I mainly focused on Tesla when looking at an EV. Reason? Infrastructure and performance. CCS will probably become the norm and standard among plugs, but right now the Supercharger network is hard to beat not to mention the user interface with the chargers. Superchargers? Just plug in and good to go. I watched a few videos of what I think are just general EV fans than Tesla fanboys( like Out of Spec motoring) and their experience with Electrify America and others seem dreadful. Have to download their app, sign up, etc in order to use the charger. Or the charger is broken or has a communication issue with the car( Mustang Mach E which could be fixed with software). The experience with Tesla's seems to mirror Apple due to the integration they have of doing everything themselves and that appealed to me greatly.

I wanted something that could at least be comparable to the Camaro in terms of performance. The ID.4 didn't check that box. I also do not like the ID.4's interior. The Mustang Mach E is the first one really to be an affordable EV that can rival Tesla's performance. I should have probably at least given the Mach E a look, but again seeing a lot of Mach E reviews run into charger issues scared me aware there. I also don't like the vertical setup of the screen. Will probably give it a look anyway down the road as my mom is interested in an EV. She is more interested in the Model Y, but the Mach E being more like a traditional car in the interior setup may end up appealing to her more.

I also love how Tesla constantly updates the vehicles. Which is certainly a weird position knowing @DT vehicle could feature new feature that mine doesn't have despite both being "2021's" if he gets one delivered in the third quarter. 4th quarter Model 3's gained the heat pump and double pane glass, 1st quarter Model 3's gained new headlights and center console, and 2nd quarter Model 3's seemed to gain a new battery pack going from 79 kwh to 82 Kwh and the trim on the door got changed around. Heck with the Model Y at least, they are constantly improving on how the structure is built going to a single casting for the rear subframe and are working towards the same with the front.  Now they also remove things too which can suck such as radar and lumbar on the passenger seat for 2nd quarter Tesla's. But I do love how Tesla doesn't sit still and they constantly work on improving the vehicle.

Tesla's though are by far perfect vehicles nor perfect as a company. Despite the hype and crap Tesla may sell in terms that since they don't have dealers and sell the cars directly, it helps improve the experience for the customer. In some ways it does because the ordering and delivery process was very easy and painless. But despite controlling their service centers and should be able to make the experiences consistent, it's not. It is still very much like the dealership experience. It's a crapshoot whether your local service center is any good or the sales agent you get assigned is any good( if you even know who is your SA). Have a question? Often enough seems like a lot of them don't even bother answering. And for those that do, the information they provide can vary depending on who you ask. One may say, " Oh you will definitely get your car in July!" when chances are low given how Tesla does deliveries. Another may say apply for financing the moment you order despite delivery being 3 months out and the offer expiring and will require another hard pull. The correct answer IMHO, is to select paying via cash cause it does seem profile completion plays a role in how the computer system assigns a VIN. But once a VIN is assigned then have your SA( or call Tesla customer service in case of a bad SA) open the payment section back up to select desired payment method(lease/third party financing/financing through Tesla). Communication overall seems to be Tesla's weak point. I can somewhat understand from a human perspective of why the experience can suck. Given the lack of service centers Tesla currently has, they are massively overworked given one service center has to handle a crap ton traffic as people have to drive 3+ hours to get to their closest ones. Tesla really needs to build more to help take the work load off their current locations. Also VIN assignments seem random at times. A person could have ordered on 4/5 and had completed their profile and another person order the exact same configuration and for the same location for delivery order on 5/15 with their profile completed. The 5/15 order could get their vehicle first. Which to me doesn't seem right. Now based on my own experience, I will say the worst thing about the Tesla experience so far is the, " You will pick up the car on our terms or we will give the car to someone else" policy. You have 3-5 days to pick up the vehicle( again on their terms of the window of dates they choose) or they reassign that VIN to another order. That is a load of BS especially for a person like me where my career has me away from home for 4 days at a time. I got lucky and my window fell within my off days, but it could have easily fallen on days I was working and faced the, " Oh too bad, we can't hold it" and had my vehicle yanked from me and put back in the line.

And obviously build quality needs major upping. It seems like Tesla is accepting letting issues get sent to the customer and hope the customer accepts delivery and again lets the overworked service centers fix the issues instead of preventing/catching it at the factory or prior to delivery. All so they can pad their delivery numbers for that quarter. My issue with the seat trim was blatantly obvious and should have been caught. It certainly hampered the experience of picking up my new car. It is somewhat is alleviated by the fact the repair should be simple enough and can be done by their mobile service techs. And they had to come out anyway to install the Homelink device in my Model 3 so they were coming out anyway. And as long as the repair is done properly and correctly, long term perspective small issue and I still very much love the vehicle. There is also small headliner fitment issues on my Model 3 where one section of the headliner isn't completely mesh with another section and is hanging down just a tiny bit. But it's not big enough of an issue for me to deal with it where there could be more issues caused than just leaving it alone. Heck my Camaro had its headliner start sagging down by the rear windshield which looked far worse. How the Model 3 is is far better. Shouldn't still be happening and for me go, " Well I will live with it", but I will.

But in my opinion and perspective, if you want to go EV and have the money for a vehicle in the Model 3/Model Y price range with how the market currently stands, Tesla is the one to go for. And Tesla damn well knows it hence why there is no quick action being taken to fix their customer service/experience. Demand is by far outstripping supply right now and they know if I got fed up and wanted to cancel, there are a crap ton of people behind me waiting in line for my spot and vehicle. This won't be lasting for long as competition is finally starting to enter the market and the infrastructure gets improved so Tesla will have to improve if they want to remain competitive. But they should be working on it now to make sure the ones that are buying, will want to stay with Tesla vs bail in 5 years when the market has drastically changed on the choice you have for EV's and gotten sick and tired of Tesla's BS.


----------



## quagmire

SuperMatt said:


> I have a 100-mile range EV (2016 VW e-Golf) and I use it for commuting. I use it with a regular 120V plug. It charges slowly, but fast enough for my needs. I’ve also found very little battery degradation in my 5 years of ownership, perhaps from only using the slow charging. If your average is 60 miles a day, you will be fine starting out with the slow charging from the 120V




My commute is about the same. I still elected for the 240V charger because when I did an overnight test drive of the Model 3, I plugged it in with the standard 120V charger and ran the climate control and heated seats to see the power draw and it wasn't enough power to do that and keep the battery charged. Plus in winter, power draw is higher due to cabin and battery heating. So wanted the extra power capacity to do that without draining the battery at the same time.


----------



## DT

@bunnspecial

Yeah, as you no doubt remember, I've been, 1) a skeptic of EVs in general, and 2) pretty outspoken about Tesla specifically.  I'll be the first to admit, my current perspective is a pretty big reverse, but let me ramble about it for a bit.

Umm, first let me read quag's post, hahaha, I had this sitting in the editor, planning on coming back to it all day, but I think now I might be able to just go, "Yes, see above ..."


----------



## DT

I will say this right up front:  outside of a PHEV or HEV, where the charger infrastructure isn't such a big deal, today, and likely through really close to my planned ownership period, I'd say Tesla has a pretty decent lead in that aspect [of EV ownership].


----------



## bunnspecial

Thanks @quagmire for your extensive write-up and thoughts.

I can't refute your points about Tesla having the best infrastructure and most advanced technology now. As much bad as I've said about Tesla over the years, that's definitely not something I've ever disputed.

Performance even on "standard" models is ridiculous too.

I'm mixed on the whole lack of dealer model. On one hand, the whole "Here's what I want, here's my money, done" is very appealing to me. My last two car purchases were used private party because I hate dealing with the sales arm of dealer that much.

Dealer service departments are definitely a mixed bag too, but at the end of the day there's a Ford/Chevy/Chrysler/Toyota/Honda etc dealer on almost every corner. When you need warranty work, getting it fixed is usually a matter of a day or two at most(save the oddball one like when my mom's Cadillac Catera years ago went in for service and they had it for 3 weeks doing warranty work related to Dexcool corrosion-I think it got a new set of headgaskets and a replacement of most of the cooling system) and if they don't fix it, they have to keep dealing with it until it's right.

I'm going to be interested to see what happens when the other big automakers really get fully into EV production. I know a lot have committed, but it's still only a portion of their sales. Like you, I'm not sure if Tesla will make it when that happens.

@DT I'm looking forward to your assessment too. I know you and I have talked about Tesla a fair bit. 

I actually do find their products really interesting. I'd give them a bit of a pass on things like QC issues if it weren't for the fact that I find a lot of the rabid fanbase insufferable.


----------



## SuperMatt

I really like what I’ve seen of the Ford Mustang EV… but I don’t need a new car right now. Perhaps in another 5 years I will be looking, and I’m excited to think of what will be available then.


----------



## SuperMatt

Here’s a nice video dispelling some myths about EVs:


----------



## quagmire

bunnspecial said:


> Thanks @quagmire for your extensive write-up and thoughts.
> 
> I can't refute your points about Tesla having the best infrastructure and most advanced technology now. As much bad as I've said about Tesla over the years, that's definitely not something I've ever disputed.
> 
> Performance even on "standard" models is ridiculous too.
> 
> I'm mixed on the whole lack of dealer model. On one hand, the whole "Here's what I want, here's my money, done" is very appealing to me. My last two car purchases were used private party because I hate dealing with the sales arm of dealer that much.
> 
> Dealer service departments are definitely a mixed bag too, but at the end of the day there's a Ford/Chevy/Chrysler/Toyota/Honda etc dealer on almost every corner. When you need warranty work, getting it fixed is usually a matter of a day or two at most(save the oddball one like when my mom's Cadillac Catera years ago went in for service and they had it for 3 weeks doing warranty work related to Dexcool corrosion-I think it got a new set of headgaskets and a replacement of most of the cooling system) and if they don't fix it, they have to keep dealing with it until it's right.
> 
> I'm going to be interested to see what happens when the other big automakers really get fully into EV production. I know a lot have committed, but it's still only a portion of their sales. Like you, I'm not sure if Tesla will make it when that happens.
> 
> @DT I'm looking forward to your assessment too. I know you and I have talked about Tesla a fair bit.
> 
> I actually do find their products really interesting. I'd give them a bit of a pass on things like QC issues if it weren't for the fact that I find a lot of the rabid fanbase insufferable.




I think Tesla will make it when it happens. The product is there and as long as that doesn't slide, everything else should be a relative easy fix. The biggest challenge is probably building out their service centers/showrooms to where it isn't a chore for people to go to one and relieves their existing ones workload. From what I gather, before the Model 3 and thus the big boom in demand, Tesla's service was top notch and people raved about it. The deterioration occurred the moment volume started to skyrocket and the existing places just couldn't keep up. 

Another issue that adds to the centers workload is how Tesla does deliveries. With only 2 factories currently, when it comes to at least the US the first two months of a quarter things are relatively quiet and deliveries are sparse. Then the last month comes and boom the service centers are doing 180 deliveries a day. Imagine the chaos that creates. This occurs because the first two months, Fremont at least focuses production on European spec models to ensure they can be shipped and delivered to Europe by end of the quarter. Then they shift to US spec production. Now when their Texas and Berlin factories come online, that should relieve that pressure point and should spread deliveries out more. And more service centers further reduces the deliveries the existing ones are expected to handle. When I was picking up my Model 3, there was a constant stream of Tesla's coming out of detailing for deliveries later that day. They are swamped. But they need to improve on the identified areas in order to survive. I believe they will, but we shall see. 

I am also willing to give them a pass on QC items because overall the car is freaking awesome. My issues are small and truth be told, all of my vehicles had to go back to fix some small stuff from the factory. I think the difference is the issue with Tesla was discovered upon delivery while the others popped up within the first month or so which didn't hamper the new car excitement on delivery day. 

I try to not let the brands fanboys hamper my experience with said brand. As for every hardcore Tesla fanboy that makes every other vehicle sound like a POS, there is another that does a crappy thing( key the vehicle, roll coal, etc) just because it is a Tesla. 

To shift gears a little bit..... The Tesla has made me up my car washing game. I picked up a Karcher K1700 electric pressure washer, some upgrade parts for said pressure washer( new hose, handle, and wand), a foam cannon, a water deionizer, and just now picked up a Metrovac Air Force Express for drying the vehicle. We shall see how it goes. I tried it out( sans Metrovac) on my dads Cadillac and I was impressed.


----------



## DT

@quagmire 

Holy shit, I have my VIN and a delivery date for tomorrow through the end of the week.  Hahahaha, WTF??


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> @quagmire
> 
> Holy shit, I have my VIN and a delivery date for tomorrow through the end of the week.  Hahahaha, WTF??




Hahaha.... Congrats!

Welcome to end of the quarter push. Performance models seem to be more readily available than the Long Range. Also looking at past quarters, this isn't unheard of. A lot of people ordered the car in March and got a VIN one day later. Can't wait for pics or you going to request to unpair the VIN and push out delivery?


----------



## Scepticalscribe

@bunnspecial: I recall that you are something of a fan of older cars (as am I).

However, I don't know whether or not you have ever come across Steph Hoy, who writes (and posts - on Twitter and YouTube among others) with the handle idriveaclassic; the cars she reviews are mostly 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, cars, though she has reviewed a few from the 90s, and a few from the 30s and 40s.  

Again, the cars are mostly British, though some others (American, Italian, Swedish, French) have also featured.

Well worth a look, if you enjoy that sort of thing.


----------



## bunnspecial

Scepticalscribe said:


> However, I don't know whether or not you have ever come across Steph Hoy, who writes (and posts - on Twitter and YouTube among others) with the handle idriveaclassic; the cars she reviews are mostly 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, cars, though she has reviewed a few from the 90s, and a few from the 30s and 40s.
> 
> Again, the cars are mostly British, though some others (American, Italian, Swedish, French) have also featured.




Thank you! I had not come across her, but a quick look and pull up of her blog showed a picture with three Morris Minors across the top. She's already off to a good start in my book! 

I do like older cars, but British is really where my interest and passion goes, even though I appreciate everything.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Can't wait for pics or you going to request to unpair the VIN and push out delivery?




We’re just going to press on, I mean, it’s the plan anyway, so another 20-30 days I don’t think would change things - in fact, with the rainy season upon us, having another AWD car, that’s roomy, has good visibility is better sooner than later (since we pretty much just want to keep the top off the Jeep)


----------



## Scepticalscribe

bunnspecial said:


> Thank you! I had not come across her, but a quick look and pull up of her blog showed a picture with three Morris Minors across the top. She's already off to a good start in my book!
> 
> I do like older cars, but British is really where my interest and passion goes, even though I appreciate everything.




Personally, I love her videos; they are very well informed (her research is both enthusiastic and impressive, and serves to place a car within its historic socio-economic context), warm and kind (to and about the owners of the cars she drives and reviews), and invariably interesting, and I must say that I love the fact that it is also possible for a respected car enthusiast (who specialises in old cars) to be female, as well.

Anyway, do enjoy.


----------



## DT

Yeah, the Tesla Fanboys, ugh, it was almost enough to put me off of the vehicle, but being a fan-but-not-blind-fanboy follower of Apple, I guess I have a decent perspective on how to mentally manage that.

Service is a little bit of a concern, we'll see how that plays out, we have a service center if it was something that couldn't be done onsite about 35 miles away, so not too bad - but does the timing/handling of issues in general is where issues may be present - I guess there's a little "luck" involved 

For EVs in general, I kind of just made the leap, it went from yard tools, to the 4xe, to having a nice home charger setup, so, OK, why not?  The 4xe has the same 97% full tank I put in 4 weeks ago, with ~200 miles of driving since that's 99.8% electric.  It kind of shook things up for me.

The performance is nuts, __and__ it's a 4-door, and AWD, so its pretty roomy, and safe, and inexpensive to operate - to the latter, if we assume an 85% efficiency with a home charger, and a $0.10/KwH cost, that's about $9.65 to "fill it up", and that's, being a little more conversative,  ~275 miles (rated at 315). so about $0.04 a mile.  vs. the GT which is getting about 16MPG (where / how, I do most of my driving), with 93 being ~$3.30/gallon, about $0.20 a mile.

I mean, the all in on a BEV is a kind of a big step, but I think our vehicle pairing will be just about perfect.  Both being able to run off a home charge, but one also being able to run off good ol' pump gas as needed.


----------



## Scepticalscribe

And, @bunnspecial: Ian at hubnut (he and Steph give each other a shout out) is also very good on old British cars, and another mutual friend of theirs - this time specialising in caravans (though he also owns some of the cars that have been featured on idriveaclassic) - is NotAnotherWhiteBox.


----------



## DT

I'm also shopping this, as my plan is to go a little "tuner" on the TM3 







These are fantastic wheels, and they've introduced something new, modular aero covers   






(Same wheel with the covers between each spoke section ...)


----------



## DT

Happy Father's Day to me ...


----------



## bunnspecial

Scepticalscribe said:


> And, @bunnspecial: Ian at hubnut (he and Steph give each other a shout out) is also very good on old British cars, and another mutual friend of theirs - this time specialising in caravans (though he also owns some of the cars that have been featured on idriveaclassic) - is NotAnotherWhiteBox.




I have interacted with hubnut some on another forum. 

He has an Invacar, and a good friend of mine has one also. The video of him driving his Invacar at 70mph is...alarming...to say the least. I remember talking to him a fair bit also when I bought my Marina as he had one at the time also.


----------



## bunnspecial

DT said:


> Yeah, the Tesla Fanboys, ugh, it was almost enough to put me off of the vehicle, but being a fan-but-not-blind-fanboy follower of Apple, I guess I have a decent perspective on how to mentally manage that.




That is a good point and something I've thought about a lot too. 

I'm definitely in the same category as you with regard to Apple. I use Macs unless I have no other choice, collect Macs, and use Apple products for all of my other needs. I definitely like Apple products, but I'm not afraid to say when I think they messed something up. 

On a different forum, I put together something of a review of my M1, but in an on-going thread concluded that I'd made a mistake by getting an 8gb model and opining that I thought it was a poor choice on Apple's part to make that the base model. The way one person reacted, you would have thought I'd called his wife fat and his kids ugly on the premise that "You don't seem to get that Macs need less RAM than Windows." That was an...interesting...discussion and reminded me of just how bad Apple fanboys can be.


----------



## quagmire

Just got the car back from the detailer. Got the entire front end, mirrors, side rockers, and full trunk in Xpel wrap. Then ceramic coating on top and on the rest of the vehicle not covered in PPF.


----------



## DT

Looks great.

Any ownership experiences to share?  Issues?  Magic? 

I was chuckling the other day about how radically different this move is for me:

Orange >> Dark Silver
Black interior >> White interior
Convertible >> Hardtop
2-Door >> 4-Door
V8 >> Electric
2WD >> AWD
8" display >> 15" display

(You had some of the same)

I ordered, and it's sitting right here, a Spigen screen protector, it's this one:






						Amazon.com: Spigen Tempered Glass Screen Protector [Glas.tR EZ FIT] Designed for Tesla Model 3 / Y Dashboard Touchscreen - Crystal Clear
					

Amazon.com: Spigen Tempered Glass Screen Protector [Glas.tR EZ FIT] Designed for Tesla Model 3 / Y Dashboard Touchscreen - Crystal Clear



					www.amazon.com
				




Tempered glass, has a slick applicator frame - Spigen products are usually outstanding.


----------



## Huntn

After 2 months at the dealer, got my 2012 Fiat 500 back with a new/rebuilt engine for $100. It runs great. The short explanation is that I bought a lifetime warranty for this car, and the engine failed with 50k miles on it.


not my image​


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> After 2 months at the dealer, got my 2012 Fiat 500 back with a new/rebuilt engine for $100. It runs great. The short explanation is that I bought a lifetime warranty for this car, and the engine failed with 50k miles on it.





Oh, nice.  This was the situation where the dealer was saying if X was damaged / needed replacement during the warranty work, __you__ would have to pay (or something to that effect)?


----------



## DT

Oh, you should supply your own image


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Looks great.
> 
> Any ownership experiences to share?  Issues?  Magic?
> 
> I was chuckling the other day about how radically different this move is for me:
> 
> Orange >> Dark Silver
> Black interior >> White interior
> Convertible >> Hardtop
> 2-Door >> 4-Door
> V8 >> Electric
> 2WD >> AWD
> 8" display >> 15" display
> 
> (You had some of the same)
> 
> I ordered, and it's sitting right here, a Spigen screen protector, it's this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Spigen Tempered Glass Screen Protector [Glas.tR EZ FIT] Designed for Tesla Model 3 / Y Dashboard Touchscreen - Crystal Clear
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Spigen Tempered Glass Screen Protector [Glas.tR EZ FIT] Designed for Tesla Model 3 / Y Dashboard Touchscreen - Crystal Clear
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tempered glass, has a slick applicator frame - Spigen products are usually outstanding.




Haven’t driven it much outside driving it home-> to detailer within 3 hours of delivery-> picking it up after work was done. Now I’m parking it for a week in order to let the ceramic coating to finish curing( most of the week being taken up by me out working anyway).

Only issue was this upon delivery. Service center ordered the part on the spot and got notification it came in on Wednesday. Got mobile tech coming next Friday to do the repair and install the Homelink device in the car. Other than that, car is fine. Autopilot is still calibrating, but that is probably due to lack of well painted lines. So can’t use the radar-less autopilot yet.


----------



## DT

@quagmire I'm not 100% what I'm seeing / what is wrong[?]  Is it the gap between the soft material and the bottom frame of the seat?  What part was involved?


----------



## Clix Pix

I need to find a good carwash around here;  I'd love to be able to wash my car myself right here at home but we don't really have the facilities and setup for that.   A lot of carwashes just run one's vehicle through an automated process which can also inadvertently cause damage to the rear windshield wiper, the antenna, something else.  I also would prefer not to be sitting in the car going through the carwash, too.   From what I hear, brushless is the way to go or a place where the employees pretty much hand-wash the vehicle, but so far I haven't found a good carwash for my baby, and she really is more than ready for a good soaping, rinsing and polishing!


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> @quagmire I'm not 100% what I'm seeing / what is wrong[?]  Is it the gap between the soft material and the bottom frame of the seat?  What part was involved?




Yeah a clip broke on that plastic trim that houses the seat controls so it is unsecured to the seat frame. Should be flush with the seat.


----------



## DT

Clix Pix said:


> I need to find a good carwash around here;  I'd love to be able to wash my car myself right here at home but we don't really have the facilities and setup for that.   A lot of carwashes just run one's vehicle through an automated process which can also inadvertently cause damage to the rear windshield wiper, the antenna, something else.  I also would prefer not to be sitting in the car going through the carwash, too.   From what I hear, brushless is the way to go or a place where the employees pretty much hand-wash the vehicle, but so far I haven't found a good carwash for my baby, and she really is more than ready for a good soaping, rinsing and polishing!




One thing I've done a few times:  go to one of the "U WASH IT" type places, you know, that you drive into a stall, pay with quarters, has a sprayer, brush - the brush can be a little harsh, so take a bucket a high quality cleaning mitt, and basically use the sprayer, but use your other supplies (so it's really just a I RINSE IT type thing )  The high pressure is great for the initial rinse off, and most have a low pressure "spot free".


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Yeah a clip broke on that plastic trim that houses the seat controls so it is unsecured to the seat frame. Should be flush with the seat.




Gotcha.  How do you like the seating?  I guess it's a non-animal "leather", but I hear it's still super nice, and the support is pretty terrific in general.


----------



## Huntn

DT said:


> Oh, nice.  This was the situation where the dealer was saying if X was damaged / needed replacement during the warranty work, __you__ would have to pay (or something to that effect)?



The dealer told me that they pushed back on this and MOPAR relented. It was a seized bolt they discovered during the course of the repair. It’s ridiculous that the warranty company would claim that a seized bolt is not broken, because the engine was still running. And if you have to break this bolt during the course of repair, it is not covered. I’d argue a seized component is a variation of being broken.


----------



## DT

OK, right, I knew it was something like that, and yeah, agree 101%, if something needs repairing under warranty, any incidental costs:  tools, other items that break as a result, that's clearly, also under the warranty coverage.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Gotcha.  How do you like the seating?  I guess it's a non-animal "leather", but I hear it's still super nice, and the support is pretty terrific in general.




I love how the seats feel. I do not know if it is psychological or not, but whenever I test drove a car with the white interior the materials felt softer than the black vegan leather. But either way I find them super comfortable to sit in.


----------



## Clix Pix

DT said:


> One thing I've done a few times:  go to one of the "U WASH IT" type places, you know, that you drive into a stall, pay with quarters, has a sprayer, brush - the brush can be a little harsh, so take a bucket a high quality cleaning mitt, and basically use the sprayer, but use your other supplies (so it's really just a I RINSE IT type thing )  The high pressure is great for the initial rinse off, and most have a low pressure "spot free".




Oh, now THAT's a _great_ idea!!!!   Thank you!  I should've thought of that -- perfect answer to my dilemma!    I'll look online and see where the most convenient one is around here and one day this coming week take the car in for a bath.....


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> I love how the seats feel. I do not know if it is psychological or not, but whenever I test drove a car with the white interior the materials felt softer than the black vegan leather. But either way I find them super comfortable to sit in.




Yeah, you know at one point months ago, when you were selecting your interior (and there was no price difference), it was Black or [Tesla recommends] Premium White, and now, of course white is also an upcharge, so I kind of think it is actually the "better" in terms of materials.

Like I said in another rambling post, for red or blue, I'd go with black (even though I don't like trees in my car ...), but for white/black/gray, the white is superb.





Clix Pix said:


> Oh, now THAT's a _great_ idea!!!!   Thank you!  I should've thought of that -- perfect answer to my dilemma!    I'll look online and see where the most convenient one is around here and one day this coming week take the car in for a bath.....




Yeah, it's a handy place, with a sprayer, water, a drain, the issue is the brush there is craptacular, and the soap, who knows what it is, so just don't use those tools/products, BYO some good car wash, washing gear.

When I've done this, I try to pick a time/day when it's going to be slow since I kind of take up a stall for a while.  And I'd do a low time, rinse with the high pressure, fill a bucket, let the time run out, wash, then add money do a high pressure rinse, then a low pressure spot free.


----------



## bunnspecial

I LOVE the wash bays. 

Back when I lived in a condo, I had no way to actually hand wash my cars. There was a place not even a quarter mile away, and $5 later I'd have the car sparkling clean. With my own bucket and soap, I could honestly get the car cleaner than I could at home between their high pressure washers and what I'm guessing was softened water in the "spot free rinse' setting. 

Also, I'd use their brush/soap to clean my tires and wheels.


----------



## Clix Pix

DT said:


> Yeah, you know at one point months ago, when you were selecting your interior (and there was no price difference), it was Black or [Tesla recommends] Premium White, and now, of course white is also an upcharge, so I kind of think it is actually the "better" in terms of materials.
> 
> Like I said in another rambling post, for red or blue, I'd go with black (even though I don't like trees in my car ...), but for white/black/gray, the white is superb.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's a handy place, with a sprayer, water, a drain, the issue is the brush there is craptacular, and the soap, who knows what it is, so just don't use those tools/products, BYO some good car wash, washing gear.
> 
> When I've done this, I try to pick a time/day when it's going to be slow since I kind of take up a stall for a while.  And I'd do a low time, rinse with the high pressure, fill a bucket, let the time run out, wash, then add money do a high pressure rinse, then a low pressure spot free.




Alas, there don't seem to be ANY of those self-service wash-your-own-car places around here!!!  DANG!!!  I got all excited at the idea and the possibilities.....only to be seriously disappointed when I ran a Google search.  I'm going to keep looking, though, using different search terms, see if that unearths something.


----------



## quagmire

So I am going to figure @DT is too busy enjoying his new car to let us know how fast it puts a smile on his face..... 

Or is too busy calling every number known to Tesla to curse them out for their shoddy QC and having to reject it.


----------



## DT

Well, yesterday wasn't the best weather for a car delivery, in fact, it was painfully craptacular - but a pretty amazing day anyway - and special thanks to my SA for standing the rain while we sat in the car  

Holy hell, I'm a bit floored, this is way beyond the experience I expected.

I realize I'm just a day into ownership, but it's just spectacular, even in the rain/wet, it's so assertively quick, it's like a slot car, press throttle and you're exactly where you want to be. I instantly acclimated to the center display being the single car information mechanism (an information dense tablet type display made instance sense in my dev/tech head).

I don't think I realized how much information is gathered through Tesla Vision and is communicated in real time:  other vehicles, signs, cones, etc., it's amazing.

The audio is as good as I've heard in an OEM setup as well.

Oh yeah and ours seems to be completely issue free in terms of F&F/build.  The gaps are consistent, the paint is beautiful (the paint is actually as good of factory paint work as I've seen), front and rear lights are mounted evenly (that seemed to be a thing with some recent deliveries), windows are even, interior is perfectly together.

Oh yeah, and that interior:  the white is stunning, especially with the medium-dark gray (uhh, "silver") exterior, super happy about the color choice. The little hint of red with the calipers is perfect, I may add some red lugs and center caps and run my wheels without the lug cover.

Plugged in the Grizzl-E with the J1772_to_Tesla adapter, fired right up, topped it off after arriving home.

Umm, I'll ramble on more later.


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## lizkat

My 21-year-old car just became an organ donor!   (better it than me, at least for now!!)   Some guy a couple roads over has a car like mine with more life left in it, somewhat less rust and short a few vital parts, so those were to be scooped out from my rustbucket along with some prospective spare parts for the future,  before the poor ol' dear gets hauled to the crusher for its scrap value.    Glad to see the back of it even if it was a great car...   and so will be the guy who mows the lawn and the one who has had to plow snow around it!   So now to rake over and eventually reseed a piece of land that just got freed up.   Any stray cat that used to hide under there hoping to surprise a fledged-out bird will have to find a new vantage point for scouting up a free lunch.


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## tranceking26

lizkat said:


> My 21-year-old car just became an organ donor!



I have a feeling that was the same fate as my old car. It failed the MOT very badly so I sold it for scrap. That was a sad walk home!


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## lizkat

tranceking26 said:


> I have a feeling that was the same fate as my old car. It failed the MOT very badly so I sold it for scrap. That was a sad walk home!




That can be a rude awakening, yes.    Mine more or less politely blew a head gasket in my own driveway on one very cold morning, so that might have been a worse ending for sure.   I was grateful, actually.   Since the iron worms were finally advancing on that car,  I wasn't going to put any money into the thing, so just put the word out around the neighborhood and figured someone would eventually agree to take it to the crusher after extracting whatever parts were wanted.   Happy ending.   I really did like that car, a 5-speed sedan, the Toyota-Chevy hybrid they made just for a little while out in the Fremont CA plant back around turn of century.


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## tranceking26

lizkat said:


> That can be a rude awakening, yes.    Mine more or less politely blew a head gasket in my own driveway on one very cold morning, so that might have been a worse ending for sure.



It was, I haven't owned a car since, so it's been over ten years now. Wow that's lucky, could have ended up much worse!


----------



## DT

DT said:


> Plugged in the Grizzl-E with the J1772_to_Tesla adapter, fired right up, topped it off after arriving home.




I did have an issue where the Grizzl-E would start at 40a, then drop to 32a, still a decent 29 miles/hour, but I wound up connecting to their portal, flashing new firmware, fixed it right up.  At 40a, it bounces around 35-36 miles/hour.

It's on a dedicated 50a circuit, so at 40a max, it's the suggested 20% under the circuit rating.

I'm going to set my max charge to like 90%, they say to stay between 80-90 unless you're specifically looking to do a long trip.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> I did have an issue where the Grizzl-E would start at 40a, then drop to 32a, still a decent 29 miles/hour, but I wound up connecting to their portal, flashing new firmware, fixed it right up.  At 40a, it bounces around 35-36 miles/hour.
> 
> It's on a dedicated 50a circuit, so at 40a max, it's the suggested 20% under the circuit rating.
> 
> I'm going to set my max charge to like 90%, they say to stay between 80-90 unless you're specifically looking to do a long trip.




I initially charged up to 80% max. Though given my daily commute, I am thinking of dropping it down to 60% since batteries are happiest at around the 50% mark in terms of longevity. Though will occasionally do 80% to 30% runs to make sure the BMS is happy being calibrated as well.

Tesla Mobile Tech just came out to fix the seat issue and installed the Homelink device. Couldn't have been easier!


----------



## DT

That's good to know your mobile support experience was positive, I mean, I'd rather avoid service, but if it has to happen, that's a nice option.

Hahaha, I had to chuckle when I realized one the more technologically sophisticated vehicles available, does not come with Homelink standard ...

"So this car can drive itself through complex traffic, avoid crashes ..."

"Can it open your garage?"



My solution: we had a couple of, more or less unused except for programming cars, garage remotes.  They're small, so I removed the clip and used some 3M to stick in inside the driver's door storage, totally hidden, easy to reach.  I still plan on some automation for the whole house / garage, so I figured I'd spend the extra money there.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> That's good to know your mobile support experience was positive, I mean, I'd rather avoid service, but if it has to happen, that's a nice option.
> 
> Hahaha, I had to chuckle when I realized one the more technologically sophisticated vehicles available, does not come with Homelink standard ...
> 
> "So this car can drive itself through complex traffic, avoid crashes ..."
> 
> "Can it open your garage?"
> 
> 
> 
> My solution: we had a couple of, more or less unused except for programming cars, garage remotes.  They're small, so I removed the clip and used some 3M to stick in inside the driver's door storage, totally hidden, easy to reach.  I still plan on some automation for the whole house / garage, so I figured I'd spend the extra money there.




it used to be standard, but think they made it optional in 2019 or so because “the data showed not a lot of people used it” according to Elon. What’s nice though is that I can open the garage door through the app on my phone. Which is fairly nice.


----------



## quagmire

First wash of the Tesla. Overall enjoy the new equipment to wash it. But discovered the first chip. Not sure if it came like that at delivery and didn’t spot it, happened on the road, or I got too close with the pressure washer( though I made sure to keep it at a good distance from the car). Oh well. Knew going into it Tesla paint was crap.

EDIT: I took a closer look at it, it must have been chipped either upon delivery and I didn't notice it or in the 20 miles I drove it before dropping it off at the PPF/Ceramic installer. The chip is underneath the Xpel film.


----------



## User.191

My 2001 Silverado is still doing reasonably well.

It's going to get some major TLC this year though with body work fixes (not much, but fixing some small scrapes and scratches), replacement tires, driveshaft and shocks and a replacement Entertainment system (I've had an aftermarket JVC GPS unit in with external amp and a sub since 2008).

I brought it brand new and fully decked out when I first came to the US (brother in law worked at the dealer and he personally did the extra external body mods such as the boards and bull bar) and it's only got about 110K on the speedo...


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## User.168

.


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## User.191

theSeb said:


> The location suggests that somebody made a booboo when installing the doors



My understanding from reading about build quality is that Tela's, whilst technologically impressive, may be somewhat lacking in the fit and finish department.

This does nothing to assuage my opinion!


----------



## quagmire

theSeb said:


> The location suggests that somebody made a booboo when installing the doors




Yeah most likely as it would be hard for a rock to get in that location to chip it that badly. Oh well.... At least it is in a location that is not easily noticeable( hence me missing it upon inspecting the vehicle upon delivery) and is protected from corrosion, etc since it is underneath the Xpel film.

Still love the car and even if I did notice it, would not have rejected it either way.

Also, why must it always be the passenger side! Upon all the videos of deliveries on youtube and posts on TMC and reddit, if there are any issues it is the passenger side of either the Model 3 or Model Y! Whether it is door misalignment or my paint chip. Seems like the passenger side is not given the same attention as the driver side.


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## User.168

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## User.168

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## quagmire

theSeb said:


> It does not look like it’s gone through the primer, so no worries about corrosion. If you were willing to replace that bit of film, it looks super straight forward to touch up. You need to sand the sharp edges down a bit first and it would not even be noticeable from a typical viewing distance, especially with ppf over it.




It's not in a spot that for me will make it worth it to go through that effort. If it was in a more obvious spot that I would see often, I would probably look into it.

Like you, I knew what to expect with a Tesla and set my expectations accordingly. The more I am around the vehicle, I am seeing more things I didn't spot upon delivery. My fault since the delivery day excitement got to me so despite bringing a checklist to try to keep me on track, I ended up saying screw it after I didn't find anything major in my 20 minute inspection and didn't want to be that guy with a measuring tool measuring panel gaps pretending to be Sandy Munro.  Once I looked at the big areas of misalignment( frunk, doors, and trunk) which were all fine, didn't see any major damage to the vehicle, no signs of underpainted areas, etc I decided to accept it.

I think I talked about a portion of the headliner where sections don't line up quite right and one section maybe is 2-3mm lower than the other where they meet which I have decided to live with, the broken seat trim( since fixed), now discovered the paint chip, and also just spotted the rear bumper on the passenger side( the passenger side issues strike again!) doesn't quite align up well with the rear fender which like the headliner I am going to live with as it doesn't look that bad or noticeable unless you're literally viewing it head on. That is the build quality status on my Model 3. Frankly issues I would rather have than what I saw with my Camaro( and I am not trashing my Camaro, I still loved it).

The Camaro had the whole headliner coming undone by the rear window that despite getting fixed once, occurred again and decided to live with despite being easily noticeable. In the heat, the rear fenders would expand outward by 5 mm or so( would go back flush with the body in cooler temps). I started to get the famous A8 shudder which I immediately went in to perform the TSB before damage to the torque converter occurred. I also had the famous rear diff groan in colder temps on the first few left turns. It first started out only occurring when the temps dipped below 60 degrees. But it eventually progressed to high 60's. Had it changed per TSB at the same time as the A8 shudder visit. Made it better, but not fully eliminated it. Granted these are issues I found during my ownership of the Camaro and we will see if I get any issues with my Model 3, but if the initial issues I discovered with the Tesla are the only ones that pop up( outside of wear and tear items), then I will be happy.


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## DT

theSeb said:


> The main reason why I have not got a Tesla model 3 is because the lack of a centre dashboard is a step too far for me. I don’t want to look sideways to see basic info, like current speed.




I can tell you - and I'm saying this as someone who was critical of this design choice when I first saw it - it's zero issue for me.

Seriously, I got used to it in the 30 minute drive home, it's more conceptually problematic than it is in actual use.  I'm a (as you probably know), a big car enthusiast, I've driven/owned quite a few different vehicles, done 60+ road track events, I'm kind of into the whole driving experience, and if this was problematic, I'd be as sensitive to it as anyone.

Here's the thing:

The speedo is at the top-left corner, it's almost in your field of view while looking directly forward, and in fact, comparing it to my other cars, I'd say it creates no additional "distraction" to check than a low mounted, dash speedo. You don't have to look down, it's just very slightly to the right, at eye level.  You can also set a visual and/or audio queue to indicate excess speed, it can be fixed, or a percentage, so you find yourself not "checking in" as much.

Also, and this is kind of a big deal, the speed indicator is not impeded by the steering wheel position, or you hands on the wheel (in any location, top, 10-2, 9-3), I liked to position my wheel lower-ish, that almost almost cut off the speedo/tach.  I find myself in the jeep doing the "lift and look under" because I drive with my hand on top of the wheel.

With a car that has no need for a tach, no need for a gear (as in 1-2-3 ...) indicator, you don't need much more "real time" instrumentation, everything else are the functions you're probably using a lower/center mounted UI or physical controls for in any vehicle (ex:  audio/music, HVAC, etc.)


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## DT

quagmire said:


> EDIT: I took a closer look at it, it must have been chipped either upon delivery and I didn't notice it or in the 20 miles I drove it before dropping it off at the PPF/Ceramic installer. The chip is underneath the Xpel film.




Doh!

Yeah, it's pretty hidden, you don't have to see it with normal use (you'll probably only see it when you wash it).  It would be easy to touch up a bit if it bothers you.


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## DT

Oh, we zipped up to the local Supercharger (~11 miles), just for fun, wanted to see how it worked ... umm, you plug in the car, that's how it works 

Stabilized at 254 miles / hour, I believe that was ~65kW, sat for about 12-13 minutes or so, picked up about 40-45 miles, $0.00 actually charged since we have 1000 free Supercharger miles.


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## User.168

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## DT

UK: Plug-In Car Sales Surge To Over 17% Market Share In June 2021​








						UK: Plug-In Car Sales Surge To Over 17% Market Share In June 2021
					

The plug-in electric market continues to expand at a rapid rate. In June, the number of registrations increased 131% year-over-year to almost 32,000.




					insideevs.com


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## DT

This makes me chuckle (from my Apple Watch):


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## quagmire

I have yet to name my Model 3....... Need to come up with a name. Just thinking quickly for something appropriate for a computer on wheels would be Haro.... I am a fan of the Gundam series and it is a robotic AI pet/assistant( depending on the series) which sort of fits along the lines of what a Tesla is.


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## DT

quagmire said:


> I have yet to name my Model 3....... Need to come up with a name. Just thinking quickly for something appropriate for a computer on wheels would be Haro.... I am a fan of the Gundam series and it is a robotic AI pet/assistant( depending on the series) which sort of fits along the lines of what a Tesla is.




It's silly but fun.  I suppose if you had multiple cars sending you notifications, it would be helpful.

I almost used Discovery One (from 2001), but looked at my avatar and thought ... oh yeah ...


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## bunnspecial

BunnSpecial's stupid moment of the day...or month. 

So, a couple of things. After the rear axle refresh, I'd noticed two sounds when driving that were driving me bonkers-especially since I'd expected the suspension work to get rid of noise! Both were coming from the left rear wheel area, and I was concerned it was something not back together right.

The first was a metallic clinking sound. It honestly had me completely stumped. I couldn't reproduce it with the car stationary, and it didn't seem speed-dependent aside, again, from only happening with the car moving. 

I actually had my(mechanic's) stethoscope out yesterday hunting for it, and I have to say that's a tool that will REALLY get you some funny looks. 

I'd thought MAYBE it was something in the exhaust-either the pipe just rattling around or perhaps part of the resonator in one of the mufflers letting go. That didn't make a ton of sense, but the pitch of the sound was leading me in that direction. I couldn't see much, but figured I'd put the new rear hanger on I'd bought years ago but had never installed. The rear muffler hanger is a bit of a puzzle, but I got it out and realized that I was missing one of the two straps that surrounds the exhaust pipes in the new kit. Still, though, what was there fit the pipe better, so I changed out some insulating washers and parts of the bracket. 

Second, I decided to pull the brake drum and just see if something strange was going on there. That was something I hadn't checked yet. This is the RH side brake(since I'm too lazy now to hunt down the LH side-it's the same although the parts are oriented a bit differently) but shows the basic set-up 





I'll point out something key in this. As brake shoes wear in drum brakes, they "resting" position of the shoes needs to be adjusted to minimize the distance the shoes need to travel to engage the drum. Brakes that are out of adjustment will still work, but may need a "pump" on the pedal to bring the shoes into contact. 

Modern drum brake designs on American cars-meaning basically anything American made in like the last 70+ years-have automatic adjusters that do this every time the car is put in reverse. These have their pluses and minuses, but mostly pluses. 

The British are often ones to eschew new technology in things like this, so British cars retained manual adjustment on their drum brakes for quite a long time. The adjuster can be seen at the top at about 1:00. Basically the adjuster unit has a screw that has a 1/4" square drive on one end, and a "pyramid" on the other end. There are two plungers in this assembly also-one end is slotted to engage the shoe, and the other is sloped and rides against the pyramid of the adjuster screw. The brakes are adjusted by turning the adjuster screw, which as it is tightened forces the plungers and consequently the shoes further out. The pyramid gives four distinct "clicks"(that can be felt, not heard)  or "flats" as the screw is turned one full rotation. The adjustment procedure is to turn the adjuster until the drum can't be turned by hand and then back off 1-2 flats. This is a fun adventure since after doing brake work, it often takes a few drives for the shoes to "seat" correctly, and they will need to be adjusted at least once. Also, adjustment is needed frequently on new shoes unless they're also paired with anew drum(or arced to fit the old drum, which no one does anymore) as they wear to match the radius of the drum. 

In any case, I'd noticed my "flats" getting floppy/indistinct and sometimes my brakes going out of adjustment, so I opted to just drop new adjuster units in. That's all good and well except a new one behaves a bit differently than an old, well worn one. For one thing, on old ones, there's usually enough grease and corrosion that the plungers don't readily come out. On new ones, they will fall out with no provocation. 

In installing this one, I dropped one of the plungers and couldn't find it. I ended up putting it back together with an old one. 

When I pulled the durm today, there sat the shiny new plunger in the bottom of the drum. As I found, it's easy for the plungers to fall behind the shoes, and I suppose this is where it was. 

The second noise still has me scratching my head. Basically it's a "slapping" sound not unlike a flat tire. I noticed its frequency was speed-dependent, and also I seemed to only notice it slowing down. 

I asked on the MG forum, and the first answer said "Just a guess, but took at the emergency brake lever." By "lever" they meant the lever that sticks out of the brake backing plate. The e-brake cable pulls on this to apply the brake. 

Basically, the suggestion was to see if the sound got better or went away if I pulled gently on the brake lever(the one in the cockpit). Sure enough, it did. 

That's where I stop, though. I can pretty clearly see that the clearance between the lever and the wheel is tight. There's a scrape mark on the inside of the rim to show for this. 





There's a couple of things going on here. One is that I lost the original clevis pin attaching the brake cable somewhere in all of this work, so I grabbed a generic trim-to-length one at the HW store. I may not have trimmed it enough, although I tried to do it in-situ with a die grinder today. 

Otherwise, I'm just lost. While I was back there with the grinder, I chamfered several other areas, but still didn't fix the problem. I'll probably try painting it tomorrow to see if I can figure out where it's rubbing, but that's it. I'm still wondering if the issue is the clevis pin, but I'm not 100% positive. 

As a side note, too, I bought my first compressor a few months ago, and it's one of the best things I've done for my garage. Air tools are great-they are so much less expensive and lighter than their electric equivalent, and often are more powerful than all but the biggest commercial grade ones. The die grinder I'm using was a $10 Harbor Freight special. Actual good quality ones are $50-100, but still a cheap consumer corded or cordless die grinder is that same price, and pro grade units are 2-3x that. Of course the downside(or maybe upside since my neighbors are beyond obnoxious) is that a pneumatic die grinder sounds vaguely like a dental drill. 

Unfortunately, I WAY underspecced my compressor, so a better compressor is on my shopping list. I'm weighing two options. The one at the top of the list was a nice traditional cast iron 27 gallon unit from HF, but for a bit more Home Depot has a 30 gallon unit that looks somewhat better. Both are more traditional belt driven, oil lubed compressors. The cast iron tank of the HF should hopefully mean lower air temps, which is a big deal since I've found that water is a big problem in my small unit. At the same time, the HD unit is really appealing because it has a higher CFM rating(6.2 vs. 5.8 at 90psi). The HD Husky I'm comparing also runs at a 175 psi tank pressure vs. 150psi for the HF unit. Tank pressure goes both ways, since higher pressures give you more air capacity in a given tank size, but also raise air temperatures(so again water is an issue since the temperature drop will be more dramatic once the pressure is regulated down). The HD unit, though, above all is a lot quieter-77db(which is almost eerily quiet for a compressor) vs. 85db. I thin the Husky unit is winning.


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## User.168

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## DT

theSeb said:


> I hear you, but I am quite used to having the speedo right in the middle, kind of like this
> 
> Having said that, I do have waze on the side and I do regularly glance to the side to see my "real" GPS speed and the current speed limit and for the rozzers hiding in the bushes, so I take your point onboard.
> 
> To be bluntly honest, I am just making excuses, because I have fallen in love with the upcoming latest version of the Hyundai Ioniq




Is that your Merc?  Nice.

The Ioniq looks like a winner, I mean, Hyundai/Kia have just been killing it with their recent ICE offerings, not shocked, at their progressive movement into the EV space (and likely success).


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## User.168

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## Herdfan

Just picked up a new Mega Truck.  This one has a Black Intimidation Grill instead of a Chrome Intimidation Grill.

2021 F-250 Lariat 6.7.  This is my third one in a row (6th overall with a couple of F-150's in the mix) but this is by far the best of them.  That could change, but the last one I put 109K on without any major issues.


----------



## Herdfan

theSeb said:


> Nah, that is a lazy google image search, since I don't appear to have any interior photos with the cars on and on the right screen. Also I cannot take photos as nice as that.
> 
> Both my Mercs have the old school analogue dials with the middle digital bit. The middle bit can show info like current speed, gear, shift lights etc and I really like that.
> 
> I was super chuffed here about how nicely I restored the alcantara, but unfortunately the display is off.
> 
> View attachment 6816




Which model?  My daughter has a GLA 250 and was wanting a GLC but she doesn't really like the new ones where the dash and the center screen are the just one long screen.

Trying to sell my mom's '11 E550 AMG (Aero only).  It only has 45K on it and the wife and I put most of them using it for trips.  I just don't like driving cars.  Too low to the ground.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> Just picked up a new Mega Truck.  This one has a Black Intimidation Grill instead of a Chrome Intimidation Grill.
> 
> 2021 F-250 Lariat 6.7.  This is my third one in a row (6th overall with a couple of F-150's in the mix) but this is by far the best of them.  That could change, but the last one I put 109K on without any major issues.
> 
> View attachment 6821





Herd!  Welcome!



Now fuck off.


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## Herdfan

DT said:


> Herd!  Welcome!
> 
> 
> 
> Now fuck off.




I'm more of a nighttime fucker offer.


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## Eric

DT said:


> Herd!  Welcome!
> 
> 
> 
> Now fuck off.






Herdfan said:


> I'm more of a nighttime fucker offer.


----------



## DT

theSeb said:


> Nah, that is a lazy google image search, since I don't appear to have any interior photos with the cars on and on the right screen. Also I cannot take photos as nice as that.
> 
> Both my Mercs have the old school analogue dials with the middle digital bit. The middle bit can show info like current speed, gear, shift lights etc and I really like that.
> I was super chuffed here about how nicely I restored the alcantara, but unfortunately the display is off.




It's so funny, I ran down to the store after you posted that, and I came back and looked and I'm like OMG THERE ARE SO MANY DIALS AND SWITCHES hahahaha


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## User.168

.


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## User.45

theSeb said:


> That is my wife's runabout - 2018 GLA 45. The new model released in 2020 brought the all digital long screen.
> 
> Below is my 2019 GLC 63S. The 2020 refresh model production started in July 2019. I got mine in August 2019 and it was one of the last pre-facelifts. I got it because I wanted the analogue dials and it is noisier than the facelift version.
> 
> View attachment 6830
> 
> The refreshed GLC has an all digital dashboard, but it is still 2 pieces, like this
> 
> View attachment 6831
> 
> I think the Merc digital dials are quite nice actually, as far as digital dials go, but I still prefer the "old school cool" of the analogue dials.



To me this is neutral, but as long as the volume and the AC are physical buttons/dials.


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## User.168

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## User.45

theSeb said:


> The buttons themselves need a separate discussion. I am not a fan of hiding every day functionality such as heated / cooled seats, climate control, volume and the ability to open my damn glovebox in some convoluted menus. I want physical buttons for such functions. Touchscreens are not great for things like changing the temperature whilst driving and I have no intentions to talk to my car, since reaching for a button and tapping it down twice is quick and easy and requires basic muscle memory. It is also quicker than having a debate with my car about what temperature I want. Everything else can go into the screen thingie. There is a balance between feeling like you are operating a plane and a Tesla.



Honestly, Teslas console design has been a giant turn-off for me. Like I know they designed the car for voice control, but the fact that it took AFAIK more than a year to come up with the actual feature is baffling. Honda stumbled with this too on their infotainments.


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## DT

I was 1000% (three zeros ...) in that same mindset with the "physical controls" concern, and it's just not happening with me after experiencing it first hand.  In fact, I rarely touch the AC controls, other than a remote "pre-cool" before coming back to it the other day   But the movement to access, control, it's seamless, the UX isn't any more complex than the partially display supported climate controls in the Sync 3 based, or uConnect based systems I owned.

There's two physical controls on the steering wheel, both can be pushed, there's a dial, and they also toggle left/right, like a wheel on a mouse.  There's talk about user assigned wheel controls for the next major release.

V11 software looks like it's going to be killer too, I've got a V3.0 FSD computer, so I'm all ready with hardware.

The vehicle is just a stunningly different experience in all the best possible ways. The car is plenty terrific looking, comfy, tech loaded (and then some), and while it might be a little deficient with a few things like cooled seats, everything else so differently better, it's kind of hard to describe. It's not just the obvious metrics like performance - it's the whole concept, including things like no more gas stations and always being "fueled", how seamlessly it just works, no starts / no stops, no need for brakes - it just reboots your whole head. 

i.e., I don't get in and think about the presence / or absence / of controls for things like the AC.


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## User.45

DT said:


> I was 1000% (three zeros ...) in that same mindset with the "physical controls" concern, and it's just not happening with me after experiencing it first hand.  In fact, I rarely touch the AC controls, other than a remote "pre-cool" before coming back to it the other day   But the movement to access, control, it's seamless, the UX isn't any more complex than the partially display supported climate controls in the Sync 3 based, or uConnect based systems I owned.
> 
> There's two physical controls on the steering wheel, both can be pushed, there's a dial, and they also toggle left/right, like a wheel on a mouse.  There's talk about user assigned wheel controls for the next major release.
> 
> V11 software looks like it's going to be killer too, I've got a V3.0 FSD computer, so I'm all ready with hardware.
> 
> The vehicle is just a stunningly different experience in all the best possible ways. The car is plenty terrific looking, comfy, tech loaded (and then some), and while it might be a little deficient with a few things like cooled seats, everything else so differently better, it's kind of hard to describe. It's not just the obvious metrics like performance - it's the whole concept, including things like no more gas stations and always being "fueled", how seamlessly it just works, no starts / no stops, no need for brakes - it just reboots your whole head.
> 
> i.e., I don't get in and think about the presence / or absence / of controls for things like the AC.



When I got our BMW i3 my neuroscience friends asked me how it felt. I told them it's saltatory* driving. It's the most personal cybernetic experience I've had in my life because the one-pedal driving eliminated second thoughts. I think about going and the car flies. Virtually no delay just thought coupled with action. The care really integrates with your mind that is in full control (hence it's per definition cybernetic).


(*Saltatory conduction* (from the Latin _saltare_, to hop or leap) is the propagation of action potentials along myelinated axonsfrom one node of Ranvier to the next node, increasing the conduction velocity of action potentials.)


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## DT

re: Tesla insurance

Mine went down ~$50 every 6-months from the Mustang, it's right around the same as it always is, for every car/SUV we've owned in the last couple of decades, right around $70-72/month (and that's pretty stout coverage).


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## User.45

DT said:


> re: Tesla insurance
> 
> Mine went down ~$50 every 6-months from the Mustang, it's right around the same as it always is, for every car/SUV we've owned in the last couple of decades, right around $70-72/month (and that's pretty stout coverage).



But this already includes the discount for the other cars, right? I pay $80/mo pristine record and single car..and it's the cheapest option in the state...


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## Herdfan

theSeb said:


> The buttons themselves need a separate discussion. I am not a fan of hiding every day functionality such as heated / cooled seats, climate control, volume and the ability to open my damn glovebox in some convoluted menus. I want physical buttons for such functions.




You like the smaller cars with the BIG motors.   It looks like the new GLA is bigger than the previous model.  My dream vehicle is a full size "G".  Wife thinks they are ugly.

Agree with you on the buttons.  My mom had to drop from an "S" back to an "E" because she couldn't work the menus.  

My truck gives you options for the AC and radio.  You can use the hard buttons on the dash (or steering wheel for radio) or all those functions are also available via touchscreen.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> But this already includes the discount for the other cars, right? I pay $80/mo pristine record and single car..and it's the cheapest option in the state...




Yeah, multi-car, multi-stuff discount (home, cars).  I guess my post was in response to a discussion about insurance - specifically on Teslas (generally on EVs) - ours more or less didn't change from the previous cars /  no EV specific rate hike.  Heck, would think with the near perfect IIHS scores it wouldn't but you never know, insurance is a mystery ...

I've actually done some speculative pricing (on cars I didn't wind up buying) and even a Porsche and a Viper were within $25/month or so vs. anything else.


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## User.45

DT said:


> Yeah, multi-car, multi-stuff discount (home, cars).  I guess my post was in response to a discussion about insurance - specifically on Teslas (generally on EVs) - ours more or less didn't change from the previous cars /  no EV specific rate hike.  Heck, would think with the near perfect IIHS scores it wouldn't but you never know, insurance is a mystery ...
> 
> I've actually done some speculative pricing (on cars I didn't wind up buying) and even a Porsche and a Viper were within $25/month or so vs. anything else.



You probably have a LOT of things on that insurance


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## User.168

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## User.168

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## JohnR

Phew! Caught up! ok, so


Herdfan said:


> Just picked up a new Mega Truck.  This one has a Black Intimidation Grill instead of a Chrome Intimidation Grill.
> 
> 2021 F-250 Lariat 6.7.  This is my third one in a row (6th overall with a couple of F-150's in the mix) but this is by far the best of them.  That could change, but the last one I put 109K on without any major issues.
> 
> View attachment 6821





Nice Super Duty! Love the look of these. Have you picked it up already? I ask because I live near the Ford plant where they make these and they have been shut down a lot this year due to chip shortage. They have a LOT (not sure how many but they filled the entire parking lots) of them at the Kentucky Motor Speedway up in Sparta KY (If you are driving on I-71 you can see them when you go by Sparta).  I wonder what would happen if a storm came in dropping tons of hail on them.

Also, have you heard about the "death wobble"? A buddy had a 2014 that had this. Not sure if Ford ever corrected it.


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## JohnR

quagmire said:


> It's not in a spot that for me will make it worth it to go through that effort. If it was in a more obvious spot that I would see often, I would probably look into it.



I can't find where you mentioned it, but how do you like that Metrovac dryer?


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## DT

theSeb said:


> I live in Europe and we have no requirement to carry a football team around. Even something the size of a Range Rover is a hassle for parking and driving around these parts.




Years ago I worked with a company that had an office in the UK, their MD used to come over a few times a year, he was a big car enthusiast.  At the time I had a C4 Corvette, I used to let him drive it, hahaha, he used to say, "I love this beast, but it won't even fit on my street!"


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## quagmire

JohnR said:


> I can't find where you mentioned it, but how do you like that Metrovac dryer?




I like it, but you definitely want the car to be coated with a wax/sealant/ceramic coating to make it easy. Initial test run on my dads car which is not coated and it was a PITA since the water did not want to be blown off. The more powerful version drew 19 amps and I didn't feel comfortable being that close to the breakers 20A limit, plus the outlet is technically only rated for 15 amps so there is that.


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## JohnR

DT said:


> That's good to know your mobile support experience was positive, I mean, I'd rather avoid service, but if it has to happen, that's a nice option.



Mobile service is VERY convenient...they will come to wherever you park your car (work, home, etc). They can fix a lot of things.

For those Tesla owners, I would highly recommend hooking up with your local owners club. https://engage.tesla.com top right, find a club

 You can get a lot of information from other owners, get help with any issues you might have, etc. The president of the club (like me, I'm the president of the Kentucky club) has a contact within Tesla that can (hopefully) get any issues resolved.

Some may see me as a "fan boy", but I consider myself the same as I was when Apple was releasing the original colored iMacs (anyone remember which song and sung by which group?   if you do, you are an Apple fan boy haha)  
I'm just super pleased with my purchase. There are a LOT more people who my wife would call tesla-nerds (Ryan McCaffrey with the podcast Ride the Lightning...super fanboy). What is really funny is that my wife calls me a nerd, yet when we go to a club meetup (usually at a car show), and when people approach to ask questions, she's right there answering them.  

Sure, it's great for the environment as far as the no pollution coming out of a tailpipe, but I love the car more for the acceleration and tech. Does it look like a sports car like a corvette, ferrari, camaro?  nope, and that's another reason why I like it...I look like some dumb dude in a white car. But meet me at a stoplight and rev your engine...I'm gone...see ya. I'll even slow down and let you catch up.   I don't know how many times I get mustang owners (or mouse as my dad called his 70 Mustang) flooring it trying to catch me. They will eventually, but hey, who just got embarrassed?  

as for the white seats vs black seats, yeah, the white is more comfortable, but honestly, I like the black too. If you got the 18" stock wheels for your 3, check these out:  https://rimetrix.com   I have seen them in person and they look VERY sharp and actually might get better efficiency than the stock ones.


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## Herdfan

JohnR said:


> Phew! Caught up! ok, so
> 
> 
> 
> Nice Super Duty! Love the look of these. Have you picked it up already? I ask because I live near the Ford plant where they make these and they have been shut down a lot this year due to chip shortage. They have a LOT (not sure how many but they filled the entire parking lots) of them at the Kentucky Motor Speedway up in Sparta KY (If you are driving on I-71 you can see them when you go by Sparta).  I wonder what would happen if a storm came in dropping tons of hail on them.
> 
> Also, have you heard about the "death wobble"? A buddy had a 2014 that had this. Not sure if Ford ever corrected it.



Thanks! Yes, I got it a month ago.  Got lucky.  Had been looking at the Ford site and this one popped as "Just Arrived" at Ricart in Columbus.  I called and was told it was already sold.  

But somehow the guy captured my name and number because I got a call that afternoon that the guy was not sure he was going to take it and the Sales Manager had given him until the end of the day.  Got a call that evening at 7:45 that he wasn't taking it and the SM would hold if for me for an hour.  I was sitting in the lot 15 minutes before they opened. 

Yes, the dreaded Death Wobble.  Cost me $1200 on my 2018 at around 60K miles.  Ford has since agreed to replace the steering damper at no cost, but that is a small part.  By the time mine was getting fixed, they had to replace a bunch of other parts that had been worn from it.  I did the 4 year, 120 bumper to bumper extended warranty on this new one, so not worried about it.

There is a Class Action about this so at some point I will get an Applebee's Gift Card for my trouble.


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## Herdfan

theSeb said:


> I live in Europe and we have no requirement to carry a football team around.



So there are no engine displacement regs over there.  Not sure why, but thought you all had limits on engine size.  I just remember being stunned the first time I saw a 190SEL (or something like that) and thinking no way they engine is big enough.


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## DT

Herdfan said:


> Thanks! Yes, I got it a month ago.




Well post some actual photos vs. that stock image BS


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## User.168

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## Huntn

*Toyota Hilander *(2013)-  Walmart Max battery with 5 year warranty purchased 2019, dead 2021. I took the battery in for replacement. Since 2019 Walmart has changed their 5 year warranty to 3. I asked about pro-rating for replacement costs,  they are no longer doing that. Got a new battery for free with a 3 warranty that starts at 2019, basically a 1 year warranty which is ok because it was free. They said now when a battery dies before the warranty period they replace it for free, which is better than pro-rated.

So next time the battery is replaced it will be without a warranty. At that point I’ll compare this brand with others and compare prices and warranties. When we first moved to Texas the guy at the  local car shop said it is not usual to replace batteries every couple of years due to the heat.


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## bunnspecial

I've had surprisingly good luck with Walmart Everstart batteries, and it's hard to beat the price.


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## User.168

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## Herdfan

DT said:


> Well post some actual photos vs. that stock image BS





theSeb said:


> I am not aware of any country with engine displacement limits of any kind - it just costs you a lot of money to own such cars. Hence why we can own V12 supercars. There are 4 main reasons why people in Europe generally drive smaller cars with smaller engines:
> 
> 
> 
> GLC 63S with the options that I have
> UK = approx *130,000 *USD
> Netherlands = approx *221,750* USD. That is not a typo.
> US = approx *93,420 *USD  - Unfortunately I only just remembered that you do not get the GLC 63S SUV in the US. To get the S you have to opt for the Coupe, which is a bit more expensive than the SUV, but I built one to the exact same spec anyway
> Germany = approx *136,000* USD
> 
> This is from the NL configurator:




I wonder if I am thinking of the Carribean.

That is insane!

The last 4 European cars we have bought were Certified Pre-owned.  Can't beat the MB CPO's.  in June 2019 we got my daughter a 2017 GLA 250 4Matic with 17K miles for $27K with a 7 year (original service date) unlimited mileage warranty.  That is better than the new warranty.  Wife's Rover was similar except it is 7/100 which is also better than factory but not unlimited.


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## DT

theSeb said:


> 2. Price of petrol




I've heard of this mysterious substance, I see people at what appears to be some kind of dispensary for it with hoses sticking out of their vehicles ...


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## DT

Japan had a displacement limit of some sort (not sure how it was imposed, taxed, etc., don't believe it's still in place).  That's why you saw a ton of performance oriented cars stay at 3.0L or less and use turbocharging.  It wasn't like the net result was that much more effective in terms of weight, packaging, cost, complexity, etc.


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## DT

bunnspecial said:


> I've had surprisingly good luck with Walmart Everstart batteries, and it's hard to beat the price.




You know, I used some "high end" batteries a few times, they didn't work/last any better, I'm convinced the "store brand" batteries are 100% as good.


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## User.168

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## Herdfan

DT said:


> Japan had a displacement limit of some sort (not sure how it was imposed, taxed, etc., don't believe it's still in place).  That's why you saw a ton of performance oriented cars stay at 3.0L or less and use turbocharging.  It wasn't like the net result was that much more effective in terms of weight, packaging, cost, complexity, etc.



It isn't.

My wife's 2010 Rover had a 5.0L V8 and would get 21-23 on trips.  Her 2016 has the 3.0L SuperCharged and only gets 18-20 on trips.  So we lost 2L of displacement, lost 60 HP,  lost the smoothness of a V8 and still got less mileage. 

Sometimes she wishes she still had the 2010.


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## Herdfan

DT said:


> You know, I used some "high end" batteries a few times, they didn't work/last any better, I'm convinced the "store brand" batteries are 100% as good.




I usually buy the Duralast Gold from AutoZone.  They are the same battery as the Platinum but instead of a pro-rated warranty after 12 months, they are a full replacement for 36 months for $20-40 more.  Never had one not make the 36 month mark.

The only high-end battery I use is the Odessy in my SXS.  Need the better vibration tolerance.


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## User.168

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## DT

theSeb said:


> Did they really though? I cannot find anything to prove, or disprove, this, apart from some old post on a forum back from 2004 claiming that cars over 2.6 litres are not allowed. I find that hard to believe, since we had Supras with 3 litre engines. They definitely had a 180 km/h, or so, mandated speed limit on all cars sold in Japan at some stage.




Right, I looked up a few things too, and it's almost like it was a "Gentleman's Agreement" vs. any kind of actual gub'ment enforced law.

Yeah, Supras were an I6 3L, 300ZX and 3000GT had 3L V6s, the RX7 had umm, OK, never mind about that one 

(FWIW, I had a '94 Supra, and '88 and '94 Turbo RX7s )


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## quagmire

Speaking about batteries and hopefully this is 2-3 years out, but the stock 12V battery in Tesla's apparently love dying early. There is a third party Lithium solution that everyone likes over at TMC called Ohmmu. Quite expensive though at $440, but seems to last for quite a while, provides more juice, and weighs quite a bit lighter. Have you used it @JohnR ? 

The Model S just changed over to Lithium for its 12V battery from lead.


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## JohnR

quagmire said:


> Speaking about batteries and hopefully this is 2-3 years out, but the stock 12V battery in Tesla's apparently love dying early. There is a third party Lithium solution that everyone likes over at TMC called Ohmmu. Quite expensive though at $440, but seems to last for quite a while, provides more juice, and weighs quite a bit lighter. Have you used it @JohnR ?
> 
> The Model S just changed over to Lithium for its 12V battery from lead.



Yeah, I have heard of that lithium ion one. A buddy's battery was about dead and he debated on it. But when he found out that service can replace it for $189, then he went that way. Batteries usually should be replaced 4-5 years anyway, so I guess it's all about what you think will be worth it.


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## quagmire

JohnR said:


> Yeah, I have heard of that lithium ion one. A buddy's battery was about dead and he debated on it. But when he found out that service can replace it for $189, then he went that way. Batteries usually should be replaced 4-5 years anyway, so I guess it's all about what you think will be worth it.




Yeah if the batteries were dying within 4-5 years, wouldn't necessarily complain. But seems with Tesla's, you seem to be lucky to get 3 years out of the lead-acid 12V. Quite a bit of people say they have had theirs die within 2.


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## JohnR

I'm going to run a survey with my club and see how many got their batteries changed and at what year. Will post the details


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## bunnspecial

theSeb said:


> Most store brand batteries in the US are made by the same company - Johnson Controls. That division was sold off to another company and is now called Clarios.




Not quite. 

There are 3 battery manufacturers in the US of flooded lead acid batteries(at least that I know of/am familiar with)-Exide, Johnson Controls, and East Penn. The general consensus where I've asks thinks that East Penn is best, Exide worst,and JC somewhere in the middle. With that said, some "classic" premium brands like DieHard(now an Advance Auto brand) are JC. Every Duralast battery from AZ I've handled is Exide. When I needed a battery for my MKZ a few years ago, I went out of my way to find an East Penn, and the NAPA premium store brands are East Penn(or at least were then). 

Everstarts are an interesting case. Around here, they all seem to be JC. With that said, I've seen-anecdotally-that Everstarts can be from all three manufacturers. Lead acid batteries are heavy, and I'd not be surprised if a decent part of the cost of them is shipping. What I've heard is that Wal-Mart sources batteries in any particular store based on which plant is closest since it cuts down on shipping cost. I've seen photos of Exide and East Penn Everstarts. I seem to recall that East Penn SNs start with EP, and Exides start with X. JC starts with JC.

Of course all three manufacturers will make batteries to whatever spec is requested, including things like plate quality. The cheapo Everstarts seem to sometimes be a pound or two lighter than say a DieHard of the same size, and sometimes within a size/group you can find better CCA specs or other specs with other brands.


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## User.168

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## bunnspecial

theSeb said:


> View attachment 7069
> I guess it depends on how you define most, but Costco, Walmart. autozone and advance is good enough for me. Johnson controls sold the battery business and the new company is called Clarios. Clarios is quite a lot bigger than any of the companies you mentioned.



Hmmm, the Duralast batteries I've had in the past most certainly were Exide and marked as such. I've seen Everstarts made by East Penn and Exide. 

A bit of reading seems I'm out of the loop and perhaps Exide is no more...


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## User.168

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## bunnspecial

So, here's another question to propose to you all:

My MKZ is 11 years old now, and at a bit under 90K miles I'm starting to wonder if I should be shopping for something else. Mileage wise it has a lot of life left, but you can't stop years, and as much as I enjoy working on cars I do need something with some semblance of reliability. 

I'm probably a year off from replacement, but figure it never hurts to start shopping now. 

Ideally, I'd like a midsize to full size rear wheel drive car, but it looks like outside a BMW, Mercedes, Genesis, or Lexus LS I might be out of luck on that. I'd REALLY love a V8, but don't know what on that list I can find with one. I think maybe there's a Cadillac also-the CT6? I'm not sure if I really want to go German either...

I'm floating a couple of other ideas. Lincoln sedans are gone from new production, but by the time I'm ready to buy there should still be a decent supply of used ones. I could go with an MKZ for familiarity. Poking around a bit it looks like one local dealer has some really attractively priced Continentals. I've driven my dad's Continental a bit, and I'm sort of...meh...on it. With that said, his is a base model(I thought the 2015 MKS he traded in was honestly a better/nicer car). It has the 3.7L NA, and honestly it feels a bit less "lively" than my MKZ. I did find a nice and relatively affordable 2018 Black Label with a 3.0L Ecoboost and it's tempting to say the least. 

To be honest, though, I know sedans are on their deathbed but it's still what I want and none of the options I'm aware of out there are saying "Buy Me."


----------



## DT

Yeah, geez, your options in that segment are so limited.  I was chuckling the other day, on Ford.com they have their vehicles grouped by general type, and clicking the 'cars' menu item gets you this:







One.


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## bunnspecial

I know-they're killing me with not selling cars anymore...my last couple dailies have been FoMoCo products. In fact aside from the Maxima I learned to drive in and the MG(and Marina) I've owned nothing but FoMoCo products. 

Unless I buy something that's a couple years old by the time I'm ready to buy, though, it looks like that might be my only option. 

Time to poke around a bit more...


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## DT

Oh, I guess some of their cars migrated under the 'Electrified' menu, like the Fusion HEV/PHEV, but they're not available anymore (listed as a 2020 CPO ONLY).

I mean, if it were me, I'd get a CTS-V 









						2014 Cadillac CTS - Carvana
					

Used 2014 Cadillac CTS CTS-V Coupe 2D for $52,090 with 18,654 miles. | Carvana




					www.carvana.com


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## Huntn

I was looking at some used car prices and they seem currently ridiculous. A 10 year old car with 150k miles and they are asking $30k for? These are what I would  describe as average brands.


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## User.168

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## DT

Huntn said:


> I was looking at some used car prices and they seem currently ridiculous. A 10 year old car with 150k miles and they are asking $30k for? These are what I would  describe as average brands.




Well, yeah, it's why is was amazing as a seller the last few months.  I drove my Mustang for 2 years, sold it for the same price I paid, we drove the DD/RT for 3 years, bought it post-lease, sold it for close to $10K profit 

The 4xe turned out extra great price-wise, got the $7500 tax credit up front, $2000 from the dealer, the MSRP went up ~$1800 about 60 days after we leased, it's $150 cheaper a month vs. the DD it replaced and a $5K more expensive car - woot!

Zero effect from the zany market - though now 4xe models are getting a $5K+ ADM, hahaha wow, a win for early adopters.  Same with the Tesla, same lease program as always, no haggle, one price - we're crossing our fingers for some retroactive tax credit.


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## bunnspecial

A CTS-V would be tempting. 

Truth be told, I was playing around and an M3 might actually be imminently doable, plus the RWD version is manual. Mrs. BunnSpecial might not like that, though...although she keeps saying she wants to learn how to. There's just a big difference between the "Yeah, I'd like to learn" and then the "Okay, it's a nice afternoon, let's go" 

Definitely not buying for a while now, though, and maybe used and new prices will level out. 

It's a bit of a shock now to look around and see huge car lots that look relatively empty. A lot of them are saying that they just can't get used inventory, and new seems short now also. I saw a couple of photos from back in Louisville of huge parking lots around town that Ford has leased and is just piling in F150s that apparently they can't finish because of the semiconductor shortage. 

As a more general comment, the economy right now actually kind of terrifies me. The stock market is on fire, interest rates are low, and the(needed) stimulus has dumped a lot of money into the economy. We did a bit of house shopping just for something bigger, and in this area if something doesn't sell in a week for above ask there's something wrong with it. I'm afraid we're about to fall HARD, but also be stuck with a pile of inflation resulting from all of this. The other side of it, that, though, is that I can delay a car purchase and we can delay a house purchase for a little while, and maybe when things settle down(hopefully not with a crash, but just with better supply both in cars and real estate) we can have a bit better of a pick.


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## DT

OMG an M3 would be awesome.  It's kind of a bucket-list-y car for me, driven quite a few, cross shopped the cab models, lightly considered one before I got the, umm, "other" M3


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## bunnspecial

Yeah, it's kind of beyond what I should be looking at now...

But at the same time it's one of the few sedans still out there with a manual and who knows how much longer ICE cars are even going to be around. 

With that said, I'm not a fan of the all-grille look so many of the makers seem to be moving toward now. I'm not a fan of the no-grill EV look either. It's almost like ICEs seem to be screaming "Look, I need a grill." 

So, an M3 leads me down the dangerous path of should I look for one a couple of years old? Then the other side of that is how much is a high strung M car going to cost me right out of warranty?


----------



## DT

The wife took the M3P out yesterday, first time on her own - dropped off the little G (hair), came home, then went to pick her up (and get her pedi), said she loved it!  The major thing is getting used to the regen braking, she said now with a little seat time, she's getting it (it's more of a feel kind of thing vs. a simple "here's how it works", not unlike learning a manual).

It's pretty fun, she walks out to the car, it unlocks the doors and it opens the JB profile where we set her up for comfort steering and chill mode acceleration which she likes (makes the throttle less "skittish").   Also seat position, wheel, mirrors - all the vision settings, wiper mode, audio, etc.,  specifically for her.  Apparently the car will store like 12 profiles, so some people do like a second one for themselves, like a "Long Drive" setting (with a slightly more reclined seat, etc.)

She texted me while she was waiting on her second trip, said how hot it was, so when she was just about done, I fired up the AC for her   Car was showing like 120° interior, the AC is pretty effective, took about 3-4 minutes to get it down to under 80° (I also hit the Vent Windows which drops all 4 down like 1-2").


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## DT

What, we're not good enough for you here?

Traitor.







@JagRunner


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## Herdfan

bunnspecial said:


> I know-they're killing me with not selling cars anymore...my last couple dailies have been FoMoCo products.




I was surprised they killed off the Taurus and Focus.    They had to sell well because they are everywhere.  If they weren't profitable enough, charge more for a year and see if people still buy them.



Huntn said:


> I was looking at some used car prices and they seem currently ridiculous. A 10 year old car with 150k miles and they are asking $30k for? These are what I would  describe as average brands.






theSeb said:


> This is one of the worst times to be looking for a car, especially a used car. If you can hold off and wait, that would be the most sensible thing to do.




Buying outright, horrible time.  But if you are trading and find a dealer than isn't adding ADP to the sticker, then you might get a decent deal.  On trade, I got $49K for a truck I paid $64K for 3 years and 109K miles ago.  That is insane right there.  Now I did pay sticker for my new one, but looking back comparing the deals, I think I still came out $2-3K better than when buying the truck I traded.


----------



## DT

Hit 30 days with the Tesla, it's all still Rainbows ~n~ Unicorns for the most part.

The car itself is terrific, it's quiet, fast, and has terrific conveniences, it's very transparent when you use it, you just get in and push one stalk up, you open the door, and exit, that's it.  Lights, AC, etc., you just don't think about it, or, if you'd like to do something like pre-cool, the app is simple and responsive (my favorite cooling technique is Vent Windows >> AC, drops 15-20° in just a couple of minutes).   Driving with just the throttle / one foot, is awesome, it seems so natural now.

And always been "fueled", it's a totally different ownership experience.  We got a good taste of it with the 4xe, and while that's a PHEV, it hasn't been gassed in like 6 ot 7 weeks (still over 3/4 tank ...)

Taking our first road trip in it soon, hahaha, not really much of a trip (~280 or so round trip), but there's a couple of charing options, interested to see how that pans out (since this is a common trip for us).  Oh, also interested to see how it packs up, the trunk seems vast, but 3 rollers, bags, a cooler (being left for use on the return part of the getaway), it's certainly not our old SUV


----------



## JohnR

Glad you are liking it. Have you put the trip in the car navigation? It should tell you where you need to stop and for how long.

we are heading to Asheville NC on Saturday morning. Our 2nd trip with the Y. Can’t wait. Might take a drive up the blue ridge parkway


----------



## DT

JohnR said:


> Glad you are liking it. Have you put the trip in the car navigation? It should tell you where you need to stop and for how long.
> 
> we are heading to Asheville NC on Saturday morning. Our 2nd trip with the Y. Can’t wait. Might take a drive up the blue ridge parkway




Yeah, I also do some pre-planning with both ABRP and PlugShare.  We're going to wind up on the second leg at a resort with free charging (part of the paid parking), curious to see how that works out - technically, you can let valet move and charge your ride, but kind of iffy on that.  Still, that would be perfect, heck, even a 20-25 juice and we'd be set for the return trip home.

FWIW, ABRP was a contributor to my final decision with this car.

Just tested some storage, easily 3-4 rollers on the their side pushed against the back of the seats, plenty of room left "behind" them for additional bags, and our big cooler drops right down into the deep storage bin.  Hahaha, plus my roller also fits in the frunk


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> Driving with just the throttle / one foot, is awesome, it seems so natural now.




What does this mean exactly?


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> What does this mean exactly?




So EVs have something called regenerative braking, it's not braking in the sense it doesn't use the conventional, friction/hydraulic brakes, it engages the motors as generators, that creates resistance and slows the car - it also generates power back into the EV battery system.

Think of it in terms of how engine braking "feels", especially if you've driven a manual.

The Tesla, not only slows the car down, but can be set to bring it to a complete stop and hold.  So you let off the accelerator, the car starts slowing, comes to a complete stop, foot totally off.  Then you use the throttle again to get rolling - all with "one foot".  You can also configure it to creep, more like a traditional car, so you have to hold it with the friction brakes.

You can still use the friction brakes to bring the car to stop quicker as desired, like on a road course


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> So EVs have something called regenerative braking, it's not braking in the sense it doesn't use the conventional, friction/hydraulic brakes, it engages the motors as generators, that creates resistance and slows the car - it also generates power back into the EV battery system.
> 
> Think of it in terms of how engine braking "feels", especially if you've driven a manual.
> 
> The Tesla, not only slows the car down, but can be set to bring it to a complete stop and hold.  So you let off the accelerator, the car starts slowing, comes to a complete stop, foot totally off.  Then you use the throttle again to get rolling - all with "one foot".  You can also configure it to creep, more like a traditional car, so you have to hold it with the friction brakes.
> 
> You can still use the friction brakes to bring the car to stop quicker as desired, like on a road course




Ok, so it is similar to a Jake on a diesel engine.  Except the Jake won't bring you to a complete stop.  It just retards the engine so you slow down without using the brakes.  Works great on hilly curvy roads where you can just let off the gas and the engine will slow you down some.

Thanks.


----------



## SuperMatt

Plug-in vehicles might cost more upfront, but should save money in the long run
					

Electric vehicles can save drivers thousands of dollars on maintenance and repairs over the life of the car.




					www.marketplace.org
				




As an owner of an EV since 2016, I can confirm the savings.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> Plug-in vehicles might cost more upfront, but should save money in the long run
> 
> 
> Electric vehicles can save drivers thousands of dollars on maintenance and repairs over the life of the car.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.marketplace.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As an owner of an EV since 2016, I can confirm the savings.




Local Police Department bought a Tesla Model 3 a couple of weeks ago.  It cost $3K more than the Ford Interceptor.  They estimate using $1300 worth of power over the next three years vs almost $18K in gas.  And that doesn't count all the other maintenance that gas engines require.

And that is fine where they are, about 4 miles from a coal fired generating plant.  Not sure how some places are going to be able to support EV's when they can barely support the demand now.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> Local Police Department bought a Tesla Model 3 a couple of weeks ago.  It cost $3K more than the Ford Interceptor.  They estimate using $1300 worth of power over the next three years vs almost $18K in gas.  And that doesn't count all the other maintenance that gas engines require.
> 
> And that is fine where they are, about 4 miles from a coal fired generating plant.  Not sure how some places are going to be able to support EV's when they can barely support the demand now.



The idea that the grid cannot support EVs has been debunked … I posted this a ways back in this thread:

Post in thread 'The Car Thread v2.0'
https://talkedabout.com/threads/the-car-thread-v2-0.155/post-45259


----------



## DT

Law Enforcement (particularly municipal) seems like a terrific use case for EVs.  Quiet, fast, long service intervals, lots of "idling" that can be done with minimal consumption/no hazardous gases, etc., works well in a small operational area, large interior vs. the exterior dimensions (so easier to park, get into tight spots, uses less room in the lot, while providing room for people, equipment).


----------



## User.191

DT said:


> Law Enforcement (particularly municipal) seems like a terrific use case for EVs.  Quiet, fast, long service intervals, lots of "idling", small operational area, large interior vs. the exterior dimensions (so easier to park, get into tight spots, uses less room in the lot, while providing room for people, equipment).



I was reading about them and EV’s a while ago and apparently the biggest issue they said they had at the time was the risk of running out of charge during either a pursuit or an emergency.


----------



## quagmire

So in theory used my first full “tank” in the Model 3. Only about 2 kwh short of the batteries usable 79 kWh capacity. I’ve been seeing about 3.5 miles per kw so should be able to in theory achieve 335 miles on a full charge being only about 18 miles short of the EPA range which I’m satisfied with.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> The idea that the grid cannot support EVs has been debunked … I posted this a ways back in this thread:
> 
> Post in thread 'The Car Thread v2.0'
> https://talkedabout.com/threads/the-car-thread-v2-0.155/post-45259




A YouTube video?  From the UK?  Really?

Did you not 4 hours ago post that reputable news outlets verify their stories through multiple sources before publishing... that’s why they are reputable.









						Is Free Speech All That It is Cracked Up To Be?
					

Really good reporting on National Public Radio (NPR) about a new book that examines Facebook policies. Most interesting was Zuckerberg’s hardcore Free Speech stance backing the right of Holicost deniers on FB to express themselves and then being surprised with the increase in denial of the...




					talkedabout.com
				




And you link a Youtube video wiith a whopping 1,105 views.  There would be 20 posts bashing my source had I done that.



I think I will go with _Reuters_ and _The New York Times_:









						EV rollout will require huge investments in strained U.S. power grids
					

During several days of brutal cold in Texas, the city of Austin saw its fleet of 12 new electric buses rendered inoperative by a statewide power outage. That problem will be magnified next year, when officials plan to start purchasing electric-powered vehicles exclusively.




					www.reuters.com
				












						Electric Cars Are Coming, and Fast. Is the Nation’s Grid Up to It? (Published 2021)
					

GM’s decision this week to phase out gasoline vehicles is the latest in a major shift that will mean drastic new demands on electric utilities. Here are four things that will need to happen.




					www.nytimes.com
				




To be fair, there are also articles by reputable sources that say the opposite.  But Forbes is kind of a right-wing source, so feel free to dismiss it.









						EVs Are Not A Problem For The Electric Grid, They Are The Solution
					

Electric vehicles won't cause the electricity grid to collapse. In fact, they could make it run more smoothly than ever before. Here's why.




					www.forbes.com
				




So I think the correct answer is we simply don't know.


----------



## Herdfan

MissNomer said:


> I was reading about them and EV’s a while ago and apparently the biggest issue they said they had at the time was the risk of running out of charge during either a pursuit or an emergency.




It's a small town.  Can't imagine they would put 100 miles a day on one.


----------



## DT

MissNomer said:


> I was reading about them and EV’s a while ago and apparently the biggest issue they said they had at the time was the risk of running out of charge during either a pursuit or an emergency.




I guess there are some scenarios where a pursuit might favor the ICE vehicle, but a high output V8, or TT V6 at WOT (Wide Open Throttle), is getting like 5MPG (and for an example, an Explorer has a 18.6g tank). From what I've read about people tracking something like a Model 3 Performance, they're getting a good 20-25 minutes of full tilt acceleration.

I mean, in some ways, "fuel" is fuel, if you're sitting with 15% charge or 3-4g of gas, it's about the same.  I think what would be smart and helpful, is to have LEO specific charging stations at common patrol stops (which you can't really do with gas), again, the model is a little different, the idea is to continuously charge vs, the ICE model which is more deplete and completely refuel.  Our M3P gets charged immediately when home, so it's like always sitting at about 280-285 mile range.

Probably at this stage, they're better for very specific doody.







Yeah, I know what I wrote ...


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> A YouTube video?  From the UK?  Really?
> 
> Did you not 4 hours ago post that reputable news outlets verify their stories through multiple sources before publishing... that’s why they are reputable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Free Speech All That It is Cracked Up To Be?
> 
> 
> Really good reporting on National Public Radio (NPR) about a new book that examines Facebook policies. Most interesting was Zuckerberg’s hardcore Free Speech stance backing the right of Holicost deniers on FB to express themselves and then being surprised with the increase in denial of the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> talkedabout.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you link a Youtube video wiith a whopping 1,105 views.  There would be 20 posts bashing my source had I done that.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I will go with _Reuters_ and _The New York Times_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EV rollout will require huge investments in strained U.S. power grids
> 
> 
> During several days of brutal cold in Texas, the city of Austin saw its fleet of 12 new electric buses rendered inoperative by a statewide power outage. That problem will be magnified next year, when officials plan to start purchasing electric-powered vehicles exclusively.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Electric Cars Are Coming, and Fast. Is the Nation’s Grid Up to It? (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> GM’s decision this week to phase out gasoline vehicles is the latest in a major shift that will mean drastic new demands on electric utilities. Here are four things that will need to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, there are also articles by reputable sources that say the opposite.  But Forbes is kind of a right-wing source, so feel free to dismiss it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EVs Are Not A Problem For The Electric Grid, They Are The Solution
> 
> 
> Electric vehicles won't cause the electricity grid to collapse. In fact, they could make it run more smoothly than ever before. Here's why.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I think the correct answer is we simply don't know.



I do know. The grid will not collapse because of EV adoption. You can quote me on it and hold me to it. The simple math of how often people replace their cars is all it takes to figure this out. The average age of a car on the road today is over 12 years.









						Average Age of Vehicles on the Road Rises above 12 Years
					

Vehicles on the road continue getting older, a study from IHS Markit found, even as new car sales recover from last year's pandemic-induced decline.




					www.caranddriver.com
				




Adoption will be slow, with more than enough time for additional sources of electricity to be brought online. Even the most pessimistic report you listed showed electricity use doubling… in 30 years! Also, that same article (Reuters) pointed out that America has had hundreds of billions of kWh in excess electricity generated every year.

The Boston Consulting Group, which gave some of the high-end (I think slightly unrealistic) projections of energy usage also are very optimistic about things. They have an entire lengthy report about it with some of the numbers included in the Reuters article:









						The Costs of Revving Up the Grid for Electric Vehicles
					

Utilities must upgrade the grid to handle demand from electric vehicles. The catch? They must avoid driving customer rates through the roof in the process.



					www.bcg.com


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> I do know. The grid will not collapse because of EV adoption. You can quote me on it and hold me to it. The simple math of how often people replace their cars is all it takes to figure this out. The average age of a car on the road today is over 12 years.




Right.  Because ...



SuperMatt said:


> Adoption will be slow, with more than enough time for additional sources of electricity to be brought online.




Right (again )

The doomsayers want to combine the existing infrastructure with every single vehicle instantly (magically ...) being swapped for an EV overnight.  It's an incremental process of adoption + expansion.


----------



## quagmire

Bought the acceleration boost. Holy crap is the car fast(er) now. Got a nice kick in the pants and got that feeling back when going all out with the Camaro.


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> The doomsayers want to combine the existing infrastructure with every single vehicle instantly (magically ...) being swapped for an EV overnight.  It's an incremental process of adoption *+ expansion.*




How can you, or anyone, be sure expansion will occur?  CA can't keep the lights on without rolling brownouts and TX, well I think there was an entire thread at MR about how bad their grid was. 

So I think that the idea the the grid will expand fast enough to keep up with adoption is optimistic.  Plus, I don't know you can completely rely on the 12 year average without some demographic data.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Herdfan

theSeb said:


> Cheap rate overnight when everybody is sleeping and the demand on the grid is low == problem solved for quite a while




Yeah, we don't have that.  We pay 11.4c kW no matter the time of day.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## SuperMatt

theSeb said:


> What I meant is that implementing such tariff plans would be a super easy way for energy companies to incentivise people into habits that would not put a strain on the grid.
> 
> UK energy companies are already offering such energy plans.
> 
> View attachment 7314
> 
> It makes sense since with an electric car you can schedule the charging times.



Many energy providers in America offer cheap rates at night, and special deals for EV owners. I guess not in West Virginia (yet). Some states seem to actively work against EV adoption, while others offer lower off-peak electricity rates, nice tax breaks for buying them and/or installing a home charger.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Bought the acceleration boost. Holy crap is the car fast(er) now. Got a nice kick in the pants and got that feeling back when going all out with the Camaro.




It's fun you got a few weeks of seat time before you upgraded, so you got a really good sense of the difference.  The 980 motors in the P, as I understand it, are only running about 80% of their max output, I'm still hoping for a P+ option for my car, unlock those to about 90-92% when in a special mode  (like maybe Track Mode), I need a good solid sub-3 second 0-60 




Herdfan said:


> So I think that the idea the the grid will expand fast enough to keep up with adoption is optimistic.




I wouldn't call it optimistic so much as "positively pragmatic"   There will some stumbling,  it will take time to sync the supply/demand, but I expect the outcome to be successful.  It's not unlike the concern over internet infrastructure from decades ago, the internet is going to crash!  There's going to be privatized segments like toll roads!  And, well, none of that happened.

Plus, I'm wearing a computer on my wrist, so yeah, maybe I am a bit optimistic 





theSeb said:


> Cheap rate overnight when everybody is sleeping and the demand on the grid is low == problem solved for quite a while






SuperMatt said:


> Many energy providers in America offer cheap rates at night, and special deals for EV owners. I guess not in West Virginia (yet). Some states seem to actively work against EV adoption, while others offer lower off-peak electricity rates, nice tax breaks for buying them and/or installing a home charger.





Absolutely, while it's not offered in many places __today__, I suspect it will be.  Heck, even here in Flori-duh, there's an option for TOU (Time Of Use) rates, our fixed rate is $0.10/kWh, TOU is $0.20 between 6a-10a and 6p-10p, all other times it's $0.03.

I think Seb's second point is terrific too, some kind of incentive to charge off hours.

For those NITK, most EVs, and dozens of smart charging systems can do all sorts of optimized charging:  specific times/days, rates, available power from non-grid sources (like solar), use data to determine best charge windows, etc.

__And__ as we move to better battery tech, i.e., longer range, higher capacity, faster charging, the time on the grid will start dropping too.  Using today's tech, if my commute was 30 miles a day, even sticking with 20-80%, I could comfortably charge only every 4-5 days or so, or at my current 40a rate, I get 36 mi/hour, so that's like 50 minutes to maintain daily full capacity.

Now imagine twice that capacity, so charing every 2 weeks, or nightly for 20 minutes, or hitting up an 800v system on the way back from work where you "top off" in 5-6 minutes


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> It's fun you got a few weeks of seat time before you upgraded, so you got a really good sense of the difference.  The 980 motors in the P, as I understand it, are only running about 80% of their max output, I'm still hoping for a P+ option for my car, unlock those to about 90-92% when in a special mode  (like maybe Track Mode), I need a good solid sub-3 second 0-60




I did end up getting a refund for it. Mostly due to impending expenses( insurance and vacation) that I want to use the money for, but it was a nice trial. I still intend to rebuy it down the road and definitely see its worth. 

Makes sense the 980 isn't tapped out. It is the motor used in the Model S Plaid. But I think the Model 3 is limited by its battery and the juice it is able to provide to the motor. Maybe the 4680 can improve on that.


----------



## JohnR

Herdfan said:


> Local Police Department bought a Tesla Model 3 a couple of weeks ago.  It cost $3K more than the Ford Interceptor.  They estimate using $1300 worth of power over the next three years vs almost $18K in gas.  And that doesn't count all the other maintenance that gas engines require.
> 
> And that is fine where they are, about 4 miles from a coal fired generating plant.  Not sure how some places are going to be able to support EV's when they can barely support the demand now.



We have a small city PD (Richmond KY) that bought one a couple of months ago and apparently bought a couple more recently. And there's a small city in Indiana that bought one about 2 years ago now. I am trying to convince our local chief that it's the way to go.

Someone on FB posted this response to a crash in KY: "what happens if all these vehicles are battery powered in hot weather? How do they get recharged or moved?"

It's amazing how little people know about EVs.


----------



## SuperMatt

JohnR said:


> We have a small city PD (Richmond KY) that bought one a couple of months ago and apparently bought a couple more recently. And there's a small city in Indiana that bought one about 2 years ago now. I am trying to convince our local chief that it's the way to go.
> 
> Someone on FB posted this response to a crash in KY: "what happens if all these vehicles are battery powered in hot weather? How do they get recharged or moved?"
> 
> It's amazing how little people know about EVs.



What if it rains? Won’t you get electrocuted? OMG the power grid will die if people buy EVs! I can’t drive 500 miles straight without stopping! And on and on.


----------



## Herdfan

SuperMatt said:


> I can’t drive 500 miles straight without stopping! And on and on.





I do wonder about that.  I see Tesla's around here all the time with FL plates.  That averages about 1000 miles for a car with a 200 mile range.  Not sure I would want to make that trip.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> I do wonder about that.  I see Tesla's around here all the time with FL plates.  That averages about 1000 miles for a car with a 200 mile range.  Not sure I would want to make that trip.




Almost every single time I see people skeptical about EVs, it’s this “road trip” scenario. If you are driving 500 mile road trips every week, maybe an EV isn’t for you? But 99% of driving is to/from work and errands in the local area.

I actually got an EV with 100-mile range because it was cheap and I realized it meets 99% of my needs. If I need to take a road-trip, I rent an ICE car. I come out way ahead on the deal. With so many EVs sporting 250+ miles of range, even people that live 50 miles from their job are still going to be just fine.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Ulenspiegel

Interesting report by Bank of America (link).


----------



## Roller

I leased a plug-in hybrid recently. Very satisfied so far — it's good to rarely have to visit a gas station. I did consider a Tesla, but there aren't any dealers here. I've also read there are still problems with body panels not being installed correctly at the factory.

BTW, GM is recalling Chevy Bolts because of a fire danger. Engineering / inventing safer batteries that have higher capacity will be a huge step forward for EVs.


----------



## JohnR

Herdfan said:


> I do wonder about that.  I see Tesla's around here all the time with FL plates.  That averages about 1000 miles for a car with a 200 mile range.  Not sure I would want to make that trip.



I have driven from Ky to Fl and back, Ky to Texas and back and both times it was very relaxing and enjoyable trip.


----------



## JohnR

Roller said:


> I leased a plug-in hybrid recently. Very satisfied so far — it's good to rarely have to visit a gas station. I did consider a Tesla, but there aren't any dealers here. I've also read there are still problems with body panels not being installed correctly at the factory.



Are you in the US? If so, you can PM me which state if you want and I can hook you up with a local club that would gladly let you check out the different models.
As for the “panel gap”, I have none on mine and in our club I think 2-3 people took theirs in to get adjusted. I wouldn’t worry about it


----------



## JohnR

Ulenspiegel said:


> Interesting report by Bank of America (link).



About what they perceive as a battery shortage due to an increase in the adoption of the electric vehicle.

I am doubtful of that piece because they don’t talk about Tesla’s new battery and production.

which would (I think) free up Panasonic to make batteries for others.


----------



## SuperMatt

JohnR said:


> About what they perceive as a battery shortage due to an increase in the adoption of the electric vehicle.
> 
> I am doubtful of that piece because they don’t talk about Tesla’s new battery and production.
> 
> which would (I think) free up Panasonic to make batteries for others.



They were really light on details. They didn’t cite a shortage of lithium or any other materials needed for the batteries.


----------



## Herdfan

Moving from batteries, has anyone ever clay bar their vehicle?

Just bought the Mequiar's Easy Clay Bar kit today to use on mom's car before putting it up for sale.  Looks easy enough, but haven't actually waxed a car in 30 years.


----------



## JohnR

Went to the National Fiddler's championship in Lietchfield KY last weekend and they had a car show. Saw this and thought of you guys.  

It couldn't decide if it was a Z28, GT or vega


----------



## B S Magnet

My car is a 1975 Sekine SHS 271 and it runs like a champ. It’s the third one I’ve owned, and they’re incredibly well built.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Herdfan

theSeb said:


> Yes, I have done it a few times.
> 
> The first question is, why are you doing this and is it really necessary?




Cleaning it up to sell and the paint feels rough.  Started to put some wax on and it still didn't feel smooth, so I stopped.   Hence thinking about using clay bar.

Car is a 2011 MB E550 that had probably not been washed in 2 years.  It was my mom's and when she couldn't drive it anymore, it just sat.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Herdfan

theSeb said:


> Most of that will be iron fallout and also probably bits of tar all over the place.
> 
> 
> 8. Normal shampoo wash (2 bucket / 3 bucket / 1 bucket + 20 wash mitts - use whatever technique you feel most comfortable with




Thanks!

But not sure what all you mean by 2 bucket, 3 bucket etc?


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## SuperMatt

So, Toyota bet on hydrogen fuel cells for its electric vehicles. That turned out to be a huge mistake since nobody else is on board, and they would have to build the entire infrastructure themselves at this point. 

Lucky for them, they’re playing a game in which paying off the umpire is actually encouraged... lobbying. Story below has had its paywall removed for your reading pleasure:









						Toyota Led on Clean Cars. Now Critics Say It Works to Delay Them. (Published 2021)
					

The auto giant bet on hydrogen power, but as the world moves toward electric the company is fighting climate regulations in an apparent effort to buy time.




					www.nytimes.com
				




“We’re losing in the EV race, so f*** the planet. Don’t improve emissions standards!"


----------



## DT

DT said:


> The 980 motors in the P, as I understand it, are only running about 80% of their max output, I'm still hoping for a P+ option for my car, unlock those to about 90-92% when in a special mode  (like maybe Track Mode), I need a good solid sub-3 second 0-60






quagmire said:


> Makes sense the 980 isn't tapped out. It is the motor used in the Model S Plaid. But I think the Model 3 is limited by its battery and the juice it is able to provide to the motor. Maybe the 4680 can improve on that.






https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1422188562737295368/


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1422188562737295368/




I have yet to see anyone confirm that tweet's details. 

Then again not many Tesla's have that version yet so will probably be waiting for confirmation.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> I have yet to see anyone confirm that tweet's details.
> 
> Then again not many Tesla's have that version yet so will probably be waiting for confirmation.




Not yet, but a buddy of mine is an officer in a large Tesla owners group out on the West Coast, has some decent inside channels - he said that's been an internal discussion for some time, not just around the engineering feasibility, but in terms of product positioning (both industry wide and internally).  His words were, "It could happen just as easily as it couldn't ..."  Given who runs the company, that should not come as a surprise.




Roller said:


> I've also read there are still problems with body panels not being installed correctly at the factory.




Tesla could absolutely use some improved QA.  I'm not one of these people that use a micrometer to measure panel gaps, but I also want things to be put together decently well on a $50K+ car.   There are issues, that while correctable, should NOT leave the factory, even if it's a small percentage of cars.


----------



## DT

theSeb said:


> Personally I think it's a conspiracy by the bucket manufacturing cabal.




I've never done it, I've used a single buckets on dozens of cars, including one that had a very expensive paint job (even on the RP scale ... ).  I very thoroughly spray down the car before washing it, make sure my __one__ bucket is clean, my mitt is clean, that's it.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Not yet, but a buddy of mine is an officer in a large Tesla owners group out on the West Coast, has some decent inside channels - he said that's been an internal discussion for some time, not just around the engineering feasibility, but in terms of product positioning (both industry wide and internally).  His words were, "It could happen just as easily as it couldn't ..."  Given who runs the company, that should not come as a surprise.





Now question is do they charge extra for it like with acceleration boost with the Long Range models?  But maybe now it will be a 3 second call without rollout.



DT said:


> Tesla could absolutely use some improved QA.  I'm not one of these people that use a micrometer to measure panel gaps, but I also want things to be put together decently well on a $50K+ car.   There are issues, that while correctable, should NOT leave the factory, even if it's a small percentage of cars.




Like not chipping the paint when installing the passenger doors? heh


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Like not chipping the paint when installing the passenger doors? heh




Yeah, it's just a bit sloppy, and if you're not called out on it, and the car simply goes to the buyer without any scrutiny over your execution (as one of the people building the car), why would you care?


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## User.168

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## bunnspecial

So, a fun one, and one that makes me want to buy one of these bumper stickers





My wife and I have been doing some serious housecleaning lately, which for now means more boxes than will ever fit in our puny little recycle can in a 2-week period, lots of time with a box cutter, and probably 3 months worth of actually getting rid of them. So, for now, they get piled in the back of the garage. 

I was carrying a stack of boxes the other day, lightly bumped the front of the MG, and heard something hit the floor. 

I look at there's a hole in the front wing, and the headlight-bucket and all-are laying on the floor tethered by the wire. 

Fortunately, not EVERYTHING can be blamed on British Leyland workers. The bucket should have 4 screws holding it in place, and it had 3. A quick look and one had been cut off so that it stood slightly proud and then painted over-apparently when the car was painted 20 years ago or whenever, they'd had trouble getting it out, and had just cut that one off. 

A #10 self tapping screw is supposed to hold the bucket in, but what I pulled out were 10-24 machine screws. I'm amazed it hadn't come off earlier.

I ran by the HW store and grabbed some #10 self tapping(no Posi-Drive as would have been 100% correct, but close enough) plus for insurance some 10-24 Nylock nuts in case the self-tapping didn't take. 

Fortunately the self-tapping went right in as they should have, and all was right. Well, not all-I still need to aim them since who knows what kind of screwed up the alignment is now, but at least I can drive it in the day and not worry about it


----------



## DT

OMG!  Hahaha, nice job


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## User.168

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## Herdfan

theSeb said:


> I won’t be getting rid of my petrol vehicles for a long time and will keep those for the pure enjoyment of the driving experience, but I am now looking at the Audi, bmw ix3 and the Hyundai ioniq 5 for the next runabout, because not every daily journey to the shops includes a twisty mountain road.




From a utility standpoint, I think electric cars would be fine for local commutes and weekend shopping trips.  Still wouldn't want to take one on a 1,000 mile trip.  But most family's have 2 + vehicles so not an issue there.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> From a utility standpoint, I think electric cars would be fine for local commutes and weekend shopping trips.  Still wouldn't want to take one on a 1,000 mile trip.  But most family's have 2 + vehicles so not an issue there.




Interestingly, in the last few weeks, I've read about (and talked to someone first hand) people making treks longer than 2-3X the single charge range.  A couple of ~1K people, one guy and his girlfriend are super hardcore, going offroad, through snow, camping IN the car, it's wild!

A buddy of mine just did ~600 miles in his X LR (I think it's an '18), just requires a touch of planning, and most of the flow of the trip just kind of worked with the charging needs, i.e., a couple of short breaks for a few minute leg stretch, a lunch stop for a full recharge, a stayover at a location with chargers.

There's a ton of planning/navigation tech in a Tesla, assuming this will be the norm moving forward - additionally, there's a number of 3rd party apps like ABRP, in fact, it's a "freemium" service, you should check out the website, you can pick a car, plan some routes, it's pretty enlightening, in fact, it had a small part in my decision.


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> Interestingly, in the last few weeks, I've read about (and talked to someone first hand) people making treks longer than 2-3X the single charge range.  A couple of ~1K people, one guy and his girlfriend are super hardcore, going offroad, through snow, camping IN the car, it's wild!
> 
> A buddy of mine just did ~600 miles in his X LR (I think it's an '18), just requires a touch of planning, and most of the flow of the trip just kind of worked with the charging needs, i.e., a couple of short breaks for a few minute leg stretch, a lunch stop for a full recharge, a stayover at a location with chargers.
> 
> There's a ton of planning/navigation tech in a Tesla, assuming this will be the norm moving forward - additionally, there's a number of 3rd party apps like ABRP, in fact, it's a "freemium" service, you should check out the website, you can pick a car, plan some routes, it's pretty enlightening, in fact, it had a small part in my decision.




I guess if you could find enough Tesla Super Chargers (480V, 100A) that will juice it up in 15-20 minutes, then that wouldn't be that bad.  But if you are stuck using 240V L2 chargers, that 8 hours would not work, at least for me.


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## DT

Oh, duh ...

Link in case ABRP didn't bring you to the right place:






						ABRP
					






					abetterrouteplanner.com


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## SuperMatt

Electric Cars for Everyone? Not Unless They Get Cheaper.
					

President Biden has made conversion to E.V.s a pillar of climate policy. But government incentives mostly help affluent buyers, not average families.




					www.nytimes.com


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## DT

@SuperMatt

Now that I agree with, we need some low/mid cost EVs.  Sure, all the ultra fast, super hi-tech entries are great, but we need to get a BUNCH of cars in the 25-35K segment.


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## Herdfan

DT said:


> @SuperMatt
> 
> Now that I agree with, we need some low/mid cost EVs.  Sure, all the ultra fast, super hi-tech entries are great, but we need to get a BUNCH of cars in the 25-35K segment.




What ever happened to the Chevy Volt?  A former neighbor who worked for Bayer got transferred to Pittsburgh and he bought a Volt.  So at work he was able to park right next to the president's i8.  The charging station was right by the door.


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## SuperMatt

DT said:


> @SuperMatt
> 
> Now that I agree with, we need some low/mid cost EVs.  Sure, all the ultra fast, super hi-tech entries are great, but we need to get a BUNCH of cars in the 25-35K segment.



That was how much I paid for my e-Golf - $24,5K. We also need to make the $7500 tax credit extended over multiple years so that people that don‘t pay $7500 in taxes in a single year can get the benefit. That being said, since the financing company can get the full tax credit, the lease deals on inexpensive EVs can be quite good.


----------



## SuperMatt

Herdfan said:


> What ever happened to the Chevy Volt?  A former neighbor who worked for Bayer got transferred to Pittsburgh and he bought a Volt.  So at work he was able to park right next to the president's i8.  The charging station was right by the door.



Replaced by the Bolt. They went from a 25-mile EV with an ICE “backup” to a full EV.


----------



## DT

This is pretty neat:

"Tesla released more details about its effort to deploy large-scale battery recycling, and it claims that it can recover about 92% of battery cell materials with its recycling process."
















						Tesla claims 92% battery cell material recovery in new recycling process
					

Tesla released more details about its effort to deploy large-scale battery recycling, and it claims that it can recover about 92% of battery cell materials with its recycling process. When it comes to emissions throughout the entire lifecycle, electric vehicles have two main advantages over...




					electrek.co


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## JohnR

Herdfan said:


> I guess if you could find enough Tesla Super Chargers (480V, 100A) that will juice it up in 15-20 minutes, then that wouldn't be that bad.  But if you are stuck using 240V L2 chargers, that 8 hours would not work, at least for me.



Just want to clarify...are you saying V2 supercharger (150kW) takes 8 hours? 

If you are, then that is incorrect. Even the V1 superchargers, if you can find one that hasn't been upgraded to V2, can charge up to 80% in about 30-45 minutes.

There are 25,000+ superchargers...I think you can find enough of them   Heck, in KY, there are 2 supercharger stations going up right now, and another one going near Evansville IN


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## JohnR

SuperMatt said:


> Replaced by the Bolt. They went from a 25-mile EV with an ICE “backup” to a full EV.



Unfortunately, GM has recalled some bolts due to fire









						GM issues second recall of Chevy Bolt EVs after vehicles catch fire
					

GM said officials with the automaker and LG Energy Solution, which supplies the battery cells, have identified a second "rare manufacturing defect" in the EVs.




					www.cnbc.com


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## DT

JohnR said:


> Just want to clarify...are you saying V2 supercharger (150kW) takes 8 hours?
> 
> If you are, then that is incorrect. Even the V1 superchargers, if you can find one that hasn't been upgraded to V2, can charge up to 80% in about 30-45 minutes.
> 
> There are 25,000+ superchargers...I think you can find enough of them   Heck, in KY, there are 2 supercharger stations going up right now, and another one going near Evansville IN




I’m 98% sure he means L2/240v, i.e., a max of 48a and not a Supercharger as he differentiated between the two.


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## Herdfan

JohnR said:


> Just want to clarify...are you saying V2 supercharger (150kW) takes 8 hours?
> 
> If you are, then that is incorrect. Even the V1 superchargers, if you can find one that hasn't been upgraded to V2, can charge up to 80% in about 30-45 minutes.
> 
> There are 25,000+ superchargers...I think you can find enough of them   Heck, in KY, there are 2 supercharger stations going up right now, and another one going near Evansville IN



I may be.  Here is my source: https://electrek.co/2021/07/06/how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-a-tesla/


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## User.168

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## DT

theSeb said:


> No, you are not. You are talking about L1 and L2 AC chargers. The poster you quoted is talking about DC superchargers, which have various versions, such as V1, V2.




Not directed at you since you help to clear it up, but there's some terminology mixup, from the article @Herdfan posted:


Level 1 AC (120V outlet at home): 20-40 hours
Level 2 AC (Third party chargers/Tesla chargers/Tesla home charger): 8-12 hours
Level 3 DCFC (Tesla Supercharger): 15-25 minutes

Those are LEVELS 1, 2 and 3, then within the LEVEL 3 DC Fast Charger spec, Tesla has different versions, V1 (mostly gone I think?), V2 is 150 kW, V3 is 250 kW.

Note, that DC Fast Charging isn't unique to Tesla, there are non-Tesla DCFCs, in fact, the buddy of mine I mentioned above, stopped at a ChargePoint EV station, it had ChaDeMo chargers, which are DCFC, and he has a a ChaDeMo_to_Tesla adapter so he got 50 kW.

WOTS is the V3 are going to be bumped to 350 kW (not sure if it'll be redesignated as a V4 ...) and that upcoming models support that spec.

Also, the non-Tesla manufacturers are starting to introduce 800v DCFC, that's twice the previous spec, now we're getting into 300 miles in 15 minute territory.


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## Herdfan

DT said:


> Not directed at you since you help to clear it up, but there's some terminology mixup, from the article @Herdfan posted:
> 
> 
> Level 1 AC (120V outlet at home): 20-40 hours
> Level 2 AC (Third party chargers/Tesla chargers/Tesla home charger): 8-12 hours
> Level 3 DCFC (Tesla Supercharger): 15-25 minutes
> 
> Those are LEVELS 1, 2 and 3, then within the LEVEL 3 DC Fast Charger spec, Tesla has different versions, V1 (mostly gone I think?), V2 is 150 kW, V3 is 250 kW.



When I was growing up and we had to charge batteries in cars, mowers etc, my dad always told me that slower is better, ie 2A trickle is better than 6A fast.

I am guessing that is no longer a consideration?


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## DT

theSeb said:


> I see this "concern" about charging times from people who claim they drive long distances on various forums and in youtube comments. I find it strange that people who claim to drive long distances regularly in the US a lot also seem to be oblivious of the charging infrastructure that is all around them. Maybe they just drive between One Horse Town and Horse Shoe Gold Mine back and forth constantly? I don't have an electric car (yet) and I have noticed all sorts of fast DC chargers popping up in the UK and in Europe




I'm seeing a lot more people talk about long[er] distance use, being more casual about hitting the road without worrying about overly planning.

I just realized that the included Tesla charger (which I leave in the car as sort of a backup), supports 120/240v and up to 32a, and has modular plug options - including a full set for ~$200 - with every single connector spec in the US, and the adapter plugs have firmware that sets the max based on the connector spec.  So heck, we could pop down to the BILs place in NSB, and get like 24-30mi/hour using his dryer outlet


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## User.168

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## User.168

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## DT

theSeb said:


> Yup, the Ioniq 5 has 800v, hence why I am super interested in it.




I *love* the styling on the Ioniq 5 - it's like a ground up EV, but with the right amount of ICE styling touches, lots of "character".  I think I'd trust anything coming from Hyundai, they're making amazing products (with a spectacular warranty), Fed Tax credit, supports vehicle to load charging.


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## Herdfan

DT said:


> I *love* the styling on the Ioniq 5 - it's like a ground up EV, but with the right amount of ICE styling touches, lots of "character".  *I think I'd trust anything coming from Hyundai*, they're making amazing products (with a spectacular warranty), Fed Tax credit, supports vehicle to load charging.




Back in college in the mid 80's a friend showed up with a new car.  A Hyundai (you should have heard all the ways people tried to pronounce it) Excel.  Nothing special about it, but it was cheap and it ran so he was happy.  We spent the better part of 2 years trying to keep his old Civic running (basically had to use starting fluid every single time, got to the point he just left the air filter off) so a car that always started was a novelty to him.  He drove it though the last 2 years of college and law school.  

They have some quite a ways since then.  My M-I-L always drove Honda Accords, but when she got a promotion that involved her driving quite a bit, she got a company Ford.  After she retired she wanted to go back to an Accord, but the price was a bit too high.  So she went with a Civic, but never really liked it.  Then one of her friend's got a Hyundai so when it was time to get a new one, she went and looked at the Sonata.  Took her a while to pull the trigger because she had in her mind it was a downgrade from a Honda.  And at the time, it probably still was.  But she loved it and has had 3 or 4 since that first one.


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## Herdfan

"Porsche, there is no substitute!"









						Tom Cruise’s ‘Risky Business’ Porsche surfaces for sale
					

A Porsche 928 used during the making of the film "Risky Business" is coming up for auction. The gold coupe will be offered at the Barrett-Jackson Houston event in September.




					www.foxnews.com


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## User.168

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## DT

theSeb said:


> I have to admit that I am not a huge fan of Porsche, except for the GT3, but the 928 is definitely the ugliest thing they have created and it makes the panamera look nice.




The 911 platform looked great in the 80s, but when they tried to do something that was very much a snapshot of design for that period, yeah, yikes.

It was also a liquid cooled, front engine V8 ... and at the time, that was heresy! 

If you put some better/larger wheels, a little aero, especially a wing to help break up the bubble-butt, drop the ride a little, they can look pretty neat - this is a 928 S4 tuned by TechArt, still very much a design of the 80s, but way better (that 928 from Risky Business is also a horrific color ...)


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## Herdfan

theSeb said:


> I have to admit that I am not a huge fan of Porsche, except for the GT3, but the 928 is definitely the ugliest thing they have created and it makes the panamera look nice.




I have a client with one of those.  Looks great except for the color: toy blue 

He has a Z06 that he races at places like Mid-Ohio and VIR.  Nothing like being a 60+ year old adrenaline junkie. LOL.  He swears the GT3 will never go to the track ........... but I don't believe him. Neither does his wife.


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## User.168

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## User.168

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## The-Real-Deal82

We had a Honda CRV (our second) since January this year. The stereo is pretty awful in terms of connecting a smartphone to it. We were on holiday in Devon a couple of weeks back and we prefer Waze to the onboard Garmin sat nav due to the live updates and a much nicer interface. If you want the commands to come through the car speakers as well as listing to the radio or streaming music from your phone, you’re out of luck. Reluctantly we are considering swapping our car but only if it’s a straight swap. Our CRV has gone up in value due to the car shortages and we are being quoted more than we paid for it in part ex.

Looked at the Seat Ateca, Skoda Kodiaq but my favourite so far for the tech it has is the Peugeot 3008. The 3008 is apparently one of the most reliable in class which shocked me as it’s a French car. Nicest looking too.


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## User.168

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## SuperMatt

theSeb said:


> I test drove the BMW IX3 on Saturday. It was the "Prestige Pro" so it had all of the bells and whistles. Terrible model nomenclature, but a very nice and comfortable car with the space we would need to for day-to-day shopping, skiing and water sports requirements. 210 KW electric motor driving the rear wheels ensures that it feels capable of getting up the national speed limits easily and the ride is superb on the typically awful UK roads. On a side note: I don't know why England road authorities are incapable of building smooth roads like in Europe. Even newly resurfaced roads are awful and bumpy.
> 
> Overall a much better car than the Audi Q4 e-tron, even though once you add some bells and whistles to match the BMW, the Audi costs the same. The BMW also has faster DC charging.
> 
> Unfortunately some time last week BMW announced a "2022" refresh of the IX3 and the models are now called M-sport and M-sport pro. They have also reshuffled some of the options that these come with. When I hear the words M-sport I wake up with terrible nightmares, because the last BMW I spent any serious time in was a BMW 320 m-sport rental for a week whilst on a holiday in Europe about 5 years ago.
> 
> It had "m-sport wheels", "m-sport suspension", and "m-sport seats". This was certainly the most uncomfortable car I have ever had the displeasure of driving. The whole week was a misery and instead of exploring, like we had planned, we mostly stayed away from driving the pos, due to the potential of permanent back damage. It's not a size or weight issue with these seats either. My wife, who is of a petite stature, also had the same complaints.
> 
> I am no stranger to cars with "sports suspensions and sports seats" but this was awful on another level. I see that one of the standard pieces of equipment on the iX3 m-sport is "sports seats". I don't understand why a bog standard compact SUV needs sports seats. This may be just a name and the seats could be exactly the same as the ones in the "prestige pro" that we test drove, but I cannot take the risk. I already have cars with "sports seats and suspension". They are brilliant for tackling mountain passes, but I cannot find a mountain pass every time I just want to go shopping.
> 
> So I'll now continue to wait to finally get a chance to test drive the Ioniq 5 and will also test drive this "m-sport" version of the iX3 when it is available. Youtube reviews suggest that the Hyundai will be large enough for our needs, but I am still not entirely sure how big this car actually is. It seems to be about the size of a Merc GLC. I hope that is the case.



Have you test-driven the Ford Mustang EV?


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## User.168

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## tobefirst

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> If you want the commands to come through the car speakers as well as listing to the radio or streaming music from your phone, you’re out of luck.



We had a CR-V, and the commands would come out of the speakers, but at very low volume. Once, accidentally, I turned the volume up *while* the command was being spoken and, lo and behold, that was the solution. A totally undiscoverable method. This probably isn't your issue, but thought I'd mention it. I've had a couple people (with various cars) where this "trick" has worked.


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## DT

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> We had a Honda CRV (our second) since January this year. The stereo is pretty awful in terms of connecting a smartphone to it. We were on holiday in Devon a couple of weeks back and we prefer Waze to the onboard Garmin sat nav due to the live updates and a much nicer interface. If you want the commands to come through the car speakers as well as listing to the radio or streaming music from your phone, you’re out of luck.




CarPlay?  Waze app, handles concurrent music, nav cues, etc.


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## Herdfan

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> We had a Honda CRV (our second) since January this year. The stereo is pretty awful in terms of connecting a smartphone to it.




I'd be happy if I could get Ford's SYNC to alert me to texts.  Phone calls ring fine through the system (both native and app based), but text alerts are MIA.


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## The-Real-Deal82

tobefirst said:


> We had a CR-V, and the commands would come out of the speakers, but at very low volume. Once, accidentally, I turned the volume up *while* the command was being spoken and, lo and behold, that was the solution. A totally undiscoverable method. This probably isn't your issue, but thought I'd mention it. I've had a couple people (with various cars) where this "trick" has worked.



Unfortunately our issue isn’t a simple as that. It appears to be a poor Bluetooth connection and the fact the system is an old version of Android which we can’t get to update. It’s a 2018 car but the system appears to be the same one used since 2013. It’s just old and we’ve tried the ‘Honda hack’, spoken to various audio experts and Honda. Nobody has an answer apart from replacing the system at a cost of around £1k. Not very tempted by that solution to be honest lol.


DT said:


> CarPlay? Waze app, handles concurrent music, nav cues, etc.



The car doesn’t have CarPlay which is what we want. We use Waze but this doesn’t read directions out though the car most of the time, just when it feels like connecting. Try streaming music also and it’s a complete nightmare. 

Been looking at the Peugeot 3008 GT Line as the kit that comes with it puts the CRV to shame for the same price. Our car has gone up nearly £1600 in value since we bought it too so might even get a model that is a newer reg than what we have. Haven’t made a decision yet but the 3008 is looking attractive right now.


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## DT

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> The car doesn’t have CarPlay which is what we want. We use Waze but this doesn’t read directions out though the car most of the time, just when it feels like connecting. Try streaming music also and it’s a complete nightmare.




Yeah, I kind of figured you'd be using that if it was available.  There are aftermarket head units with CarPlay, but that's a whole can of worms, nothing beats OEM integration.


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## DT

It's amazing how much like a computer vehicles have become, I spent this weekend "updating the cars", both, one to correct a few things, including the backup lines, and another that was an incremental update to fine tune a few things on the way to a much more major update.  The Tesla is especially like this since updates roll out brand new media features, UI changes, etc.


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## lizkat

Ok a brief flashback to Car [thread] v1.0... or maybe v0.1?

I remember having a couple "pre-owned" orange VW bugs in my driveway up here for awhile...  one usually road worthy and one possibly waiting for a little TLC.     Like one night I was driving back from somewhere with one of my brothers and the accelerator cable gave it up...    

Spent the next half hour curled up on the floor in the passenger side to reach over to driver's side and control a vise grip pliers we managed to get onto the still functional piece of that cable, me listening for the bro to say "pull harder" or "let up, I gotta brake for this curve". Somehow we made it home. My spine was not thrilled by that 40-minute experience.

But the fixes were all like that back then on the Beetles.  Straightforward, common sense, not many tools required.   An "upgrade" was when the thing rusted out so bad you couldn't find something to weld something else back onto, and then it was time for a somewhat newer used VW bug.

Still I was so impressed by having a "real" heater in my 1980 Datsun later on: I used to turn the heat on during a summer evening ride back from town sometimes,  just to feel hot air kick in after a minute.  The VW gave off heat only after its engine got hot, which meant in winter I never really had a warm ride home from the grocery store in town in the dead of winter. Good times. 

If I were a little bit younger I'd definitely be a candidate for a car I'd have to upgrade the way you're doing...


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## Herdfan

DT said:


> It's amazing how much like a computer vehicles have become, I spent this weekend "updating the cars", both, one to correct a few things, including the backup lines, and another that was an incremental update to fine tune a few things on the way to a much more major update.  The Tesla is especially like this since updates roll out brand new media features, UI changes, etc.




I have an OBD2 adapter that allows me to hook up and change some functions on my F-250.  For example, the turn signal has 2 settings.  A simple push makes it blink 3 times for changing lanes or if you push past the detent it holds until you return the wheel to straight (normal turn signal).  I didn't think the 3 blinks was enough so I set it at 7.  Also killed the annoying "Ding" when the door is open and the engine running.


lizkat said:


> Still I was so impressed by having a "real" heater in my 1980 Datsun later on: I used to turn the heat on during a summer evening ride back from town sometimes,  just to feel hot air kick in after a minute.  The VW gave off heat only after its engine got hot, which meant in winter I never really had a warm ride home from the grocery store in town in the dead of winter. Good times.




My new truck has the electric supplemental heater so I have heat as soon as I want it.  Last truck didn't have it, but the one before it did.  And I missed it.  That big diesel takes forever to heat up.  I could use the engine block heater to help, but that was too much trouble.


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## JohnR

Well, if anyone was considering the Chevy Bolt, I would hold off for awhile:









						GM expands battery recall to ALL 2017-2022 Chevy Bolt EVs including EUV, blames supplier LG
					

GM Friday afternoon announced it would expand its Bolt recall to ALL Chevy Bolts including ones manufactured in the US and including the 2022 EV and EUVs. It looks like LG is being thrown under the bus here. GM has changed its tone on the recall press releases, now putting the blame squarely on...




					electrek.co


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## SuperMatt

DT said:


> It's amazing how much like a computer vehicles have become, I spent this weekend "updating the cars", both, one to correct a few things, including the backup lines, and another that was an incremental update to fine tune a few things on the way to a much more major update.  The Tesla is especially like this since updates roll out brand new media features, UI changes, etc.



This is something that really puts me off from getting a Tesla. Their self-driving module freaked out around lights from emergency vehicles and crashed in multiple instances. That doesn’t inspire confidence in their software. So do I want them updating it all the time?  If a software update screws up my PC, it’s an annoyance. If it screws up my car, it could be life-threatening.

The idea of waking up to a software update gone wrong on my car does NOT appeal to me. Just what I need - they borked a software update and now I cannot get the car to start so how do I get to work? Or I head out the driveway and notice something is screwed up with the steering or brakes… No thanks.


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## DT

@SuperMatt

Yeah, I hear you, it runs through my head on occasion as an owner (and did as a prospective buyer).  My buddy who is a software engineer like me, very early adopter (I want to say since around 2016), he's never had an issue (on his 3rd and 4th Teslas).  Though he's a lot like us, works from home, has a pretty thorough perspective on the potential downsides vs. the benefits, etc.

It's funny, Tesla is quite a bit like Apple ...

Led by a bit of a loose canon, but clearly incredibly bright CEO (talking Jobs vs. Musk),  they're priced high-er-ish as a kind of "boutique package" product (the value is in the software), they sometimes stumble with "improvements" that really aren't, i.e., the "We'll tell you what you want and you'll like it ..." type product design philosophy.   They're both a bit of a walled garden, have massive value, spend cycles on seemingly pointless efforts, and they're both very broad with their vision, i.e., Tesla isn't a "car company" and Apple isn't a "computer company"/

When they're right, when they skate where the puck will be, it's genius (iPod, Model 3), when they're not, it's disastrously bad (Hockey puck mouse, steering yoke).


----------



## JohnR

I don't think the yoke is that bad...wish I had it on my Y


----------



## JohnR

SuperMatt said:


> This is something that really puts me off from getting a Tesla. Their self-driving module freaked out around lights from emergency vehicles and crashed in multiple instances. That doesn’t inspire confidence in their software. So do I want them updating it all the time?  If a software update screws up my PC, it’s an annoyance. If it screws up my car, it could be life-threatening.
> 
> The idea of waking up to a software update gone wrong on my car does NOT appeal to me. Just what I need - they borked a software update and now I cannot get the car to start so how do I get to work? Or I head out the driveway and notice something is screwed up with the steering or brakes… No thanks.



out of 200,000+ Tesla cars on the road, you are talking about ~20 or less? I have never had an incident even remotely close to that nor do I know of any of my members (I'm the president of the KY owners club with 400+ members) reporting such thing. To worry about it is your choice, but not mine. 

As for a software update gone wrong....again, never happened nor have I heard of it happening anywhere. Tesla has an Early Access Program where they invite you to join and they will occasionally update your car with new software. Plus, they test out the software before release. AND it's not released widely all at once. I have gone a month or more before my car is updated, yet a buddy of mine in same city gets his practically the day they release it.

But hey, at least they aren't catching fire like the Bolt, have death wobbles like the Ford F250, the multiple recalls on the Escape when it first came out, etc. Perhaps Tesla isn't for you, that's fine. But talk to actual owners before making decisions based upon what you wrote up there.


----------



## DT

JohnR said:


> I don't think the yoke is that bad...wish I had it on my Y




It's a terrible idea on a street car, and even if it was something they wanted to move to, don't do it till you have [speed] variable steering ratio (with user adjustability).


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## JohnR

DT said:


> It's a terrible idea on a street car, and even if it was something they wanted to move to, don't do it till you have [speed] variable steering ratio (with user adjustability).



I'm hoping to get to drive a plaid S soon and will give my opinion of the yoke.


----------



## DT

JohnR said:


> I'm hoping to get to drive a plaid S soon and will give my opinion of the yoke.




I've actually driven a couple of vehicles with a yoke, one was a street-ish car (challenge F-car) and was an outright track-only car (open wheeled Mazda), and they're great on track, but would not be in a parking lot, etc.  The other issue is where Tesla decided to locate the horn button, which rotates out of use during slow speed, full lock turns.

Again, it's probably fun one you're up and running, around town, in a parking lot, garages, etc., yikes.

The problem is, it solves a problem that doesn't exist, i.e., impairing the visibility of the dashboard - at least that's been the justification behind the design coming out of Tesla.  That's why it would be extra pointless in a Y or a 3, since there's no dash to block    The solution to info on the dash possibly being blocked by the wheel in an S and X, and the lack of front of driver data in the 3 and Y could __all__ be solved by a HUD.


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## User.168

.


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## JohnR

I can’t find what I was looking for so I will have to paraphrase:
I *think* that another benefit of the yoke is that it forces the driver to place hands at 9 & 3 position, which is the new (to me at least) position that is recommended for to the airbags.  Having your hand on the top actually would cause your face to be hit by it if you crashed and the bag deployed. (Again, I am no expert but this is how I see it)
I will ask current owners what they think

I do know that someone has said they wished the turn signals were tactile instead? And perhaps they were separated left and right sides.


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## JohnR

theSeb said:


> Unfortunately they have been known to catch fire too
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-fire/



Love how that article uses a tweet out of context making it seem as if Elon is talking about a software update to prevent fires.
He was actually talking about the class action suit alleging Tesla’s software causes their battery to have less range.

anyway, yeah, it is unfortunate and those are ongoing investigations probably. I have no knowledge on what May have cause them.
But GM has placed blame on LG. Read the article.


----------



## DT

JohnR said:


> I can’t find what I was looking for so I will have to paraphrase:
> I *think* that another benefit of the yoke is that it forces the driver to place hands at 9 & 3 position, which is the new (to me at least) position that is recommended for to the airbags.  Having your hand on the top actually would cause your face to be hit by it if you crashed and the bag deployed. (Again, I am no expert but this is how I see it)





The problem with the 9 & 3 idea, is during any turn past some X°, your arms are going to cross - right in front of the airbag - where with a round wheel, I can easily shuffle steer and keep my arms out of the way.

It's not a great idea.

Heck, the wheel in my TM3 is fantastic, just the right diameter, nice and thick, even the bottom is slightly flattened like a real performance car 

The new Model S (QA issues notwithstanding) is excellent, the Plaid flavor is insanely awesome, there's a lot to like about it, I imagine for people who decide to purchase the new S, for them, the yoke will fall somewhere between an ambivalent "it's OK" and an enthusiastic, but partially confirmation biased delusion of "it's the greatest thing ever" 

I guess the real test would've been to offer both the yoke and a round wheel, see what the uptake was on the former (and track any "returns" - so to speak - for the other wheel).


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## User.168

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## DT

@bunnspecial ...



> It’s a not a new fad or anything, but it’s more of a low tone melodramatic color that’s not very eye-popping, but has a unique shade to it.


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## tobefirst

I'm a big fan of Doug Demuro's. Sometimes his videos are too long for me, but, ohmygosh, I'm glad I watched this one on the Plaid. I've linked directly to his test drive, which is what made it so worth it for me.


----------



## DT

@tobefirst

Hahaha, yeah, his reaction shots are alone are worth a watch   He's pretty spot on - killer tech, unrivaled acceleration, solid general design/creature-comforts  vs.  decent-ish driving dynamics and a crap shoot of mediocrity when comes to build quality/QA/etc.

You have to decide if the former vs. the latter when compared to the price is worth it.

I mean, my M3P is a ~$55K 4-door, performance sedan and at that price point, given the performance, tech, etc., and the current market when comparing it to over $55K cars in the segment, it's a deal (with the $7500 FTC it would've been an insane bargain, maybe we'll still see something) and I got a really good one.   For someone in my income range, if it was used regularly, the gas savings would be notable as well.

When you start getting over $75K, $100K, $125K, the car has to bring another level to things, the cost starts diluting the performance - or - it's a $138K parlor trick (that might be worth it )  Don't know if you heard him say the owner has "several other high end cars like Ferraris" ...

One thing I was surprised by:  no dead digs, all his acceleration hits were from a roll (looked to be around 35-45-ish), I suspect that was by request of the owner for whatever reason.


----------



## Huntn

I’m looking for some advice.   My grandson is saving up for a car, we know how crazy the used car market currently is. He’s looking at a 2016 Subaru BRZ, 6 speed manual,  50k miles for $10k. Here is the catch, it has a salvage/rebuilt title. It was crashed in 2020, the front end repaired, declared totaled by the insurance company (looked at the Car Fax Report). It has current tags on it. The equivalent car “not formerly crashed” goes for about $20k.

My impression is that with a rebuilt title value can be questionable, as in you have to find someone willing to buy it. For such a car is $10k a reasonable price? 

​
We drove it today. It looks good, looks good under the hood, and drives good. My plan is prior to purchase, to pay my mechanic to run it up on lift and look for issues like a rewelded frame, and plug the computer into it looking for issues. I think there is a place I can plug in the VIN and see if it’s in the system. Anything else? Is this a good deal, or possibly be a good deal? If it was me I would not be going anywhere need a rebuilt totaled car.


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## SuperMatt

Huntn said:


> I’m looking for some advice.   My grandson is saving up for a car, we know how crazy the used car market currently is. He’s looking at a 2016 Subaru BRZ, 6 speed manual,  50k miles for $10k. Here is the catch, it has a salvage/rebuilt title. It was crashed in 2020, the front end repaired, declared totaled by the insurance company (looked at the Car Fax Report). It has current tags on it. The equivalent car “not formerly crashed” goes for about $20k.
> 
> My impression is that with a rebuilt title value can be questionable, as in you have to find someone willing to buy it. For such a car is $10k a reasonable price?
> 
> View attachment 8355​
> We drove it today. It looks good, looks good under the hood, and drives good. My plan is prior to purchase, to pay my mechanic to run it up on lift and look for issues like a rewelded frame, and plug the computer into it looking for issues. I think there is a place I can plug in the VIN and see if it’s in the system. Anything else? Is this a good deal, or possibly be a good deal? If it was me I would not be going anywhere need a rebuilt totaled car.



Somebody crashing a sporty car like this was probably driving like a bat out of hell and trashing the engine too.


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## Herdfan

Huntn said:


> I’m looking for some advice.   My grandson is saving up for a car, we know how crazy the used car market currently is. He’s looking at a 2016 Subaru BRZ, 6 speed manual,  50k miles for $10k. Here is the catch, it has a salvage/rebuilt title.




Not sure how the laws in your state are, but in WV a salvage title and reconstructed title are two different things.  If you have a salvage title and want to convert it to a reconstructed title, you must have it inspected by one of about 12 shops throughout the state licensed to do those inspections.  And it might not pass.  If it does, you will forever have a reconstructed title vs a regular title.  Probably worth it if you are saving half.


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## DT

Yeah, it’s kind of a balancing act, it’s worth a lot less but you’re paying a lot less.  It’s not the “value” as that is kind of a wash, it’s the concern about the damage and repair - especially where a frame is concerned, it might never be right, I.e., have vibrations, be impossible to get a good alignment, have leaks, etc.

I’d rather buy some in the same price range that’s higher mileage, maybe not as “sporty”, like a base model Honda Civic.


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## bunnspecial

DT said:


> Yeah, it’s kind of a balancing act, it’s worth a lot less but you’re paying a lot less.  It’s not the “value” as that is kind of a wash, it’s the concern about the damage and repair - especially where a frame is concerned, it might never be right, I.e., have vibrations, be impossible to get a good alignment, have leaks, etc.
> 
> I’d rather buy some in the same price range that’s higher mileage, maybe not as “sporty”, like a base model Honda Civic.




Back in the days before CarFax was something that cost real money rather than dealers handing it over to you if you ask(not that it necessarily means much) my dad bought an Oldmobile 88 that he absolutely loved. Like a lot of his cars, he bought it 1-year old and most likely fresh off lease. It was I think a 98 and he got it in 99 with maybe 15K miles on it. 

In 2 years, he chewed through two sets of front tires on that car. It was the same story every time-the outside was nearly perfect but he'd take it for an oil change and they'd look and say "You know your tires are almost bald on the inside, right?" 

Both times, two different shops stuck in on their alignment rack and brought the camber into spec(along with everything else) and pronounced it good to go. 

It also had some other funky stuff happen. It ate its serpentine belt at 25K, and he took it to his regular mechanic-an old-school guy who could order GM and Ford parts by number off the top of his head, and could almost diagnose cars by looking at them(plus closed up shop because he didn't want to spend the money on an OBD-II reader back when they were crazy expensive and got to the point where he had to have one). When that mechanic was putting the belt on, he ended up changing a bunch of accessory mounting brackets since apparently none of the belt pulleys were in alignment(hence the premature death) and said "You know that car's been hit bad in the front end, don't you?" With it up on the rack, he proceeds to point out all the collision repair, and also finds-as best as I recall-that parts of it were so badly messed up it would have totaled the car to fix it right such that camber would hold. Bear in mind my memories are fuzzy on this, but basically it was a car that should have been totaled after the accident and instead was fixed poorly. 

That one was sold the next week.


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## Huntn

Herdfan said:


> Not sure how the laws in your state are, but in WV a salvage title and reconstructed title are two different things.  If you have a salvage title and want to convert it to a reconstructed title, you must have it inspected by one of about 12 shops throughout the state licensed to do those inspections.  And it might not pass.  If it does, you will forever have a reconstructed title vs a regular title.  Probably worth it if you are saving half.



It’s a rebuilt title. I spoke with my mechanic who says if the frame was cut and rewelded to avoid it. He may get a chance to look at it if the seller decides to submit to an inspection.


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## Huntn

DT said:


> Yeah, it’s kind of a balancing act, it’s worth a lot less but you’re paying a lot less.  It’s not the “value” as that is kind of a wash, it’s the concern about the damage and repair - especially where a frame is concerned, it might never be right, I.e., have vibrations, be impossible to get a good alignment, have leaks, etc.
> 
> I’d rather buy some in the same price range that’s higher mileage, maybe not as “sporty”, like a base model Honda Civic.



My grandson wants a sporty car.


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## DT

Huntn said:


> My grandson wants a sporty car.




Then he should buy one when can afford one that's not a disaster waiting to happen.  My $0.02

I get it, kids want something "sporty", I mean, it's barely that, it's very small, it's RWD so not sure if it will be driven in ice/snow, it's been tagged at totalled.

How old is he?


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## Herdfan

bunnspecial said:


> Back in the days before CarFax was something that cost real money rather than dealers handing it over to you if you ask(




I got a Free CarFax when I bought my truck.  New!  No idea why.  I guess the dealer has an account so every vehicle they sell gets one, but it makes no sense.

When we bought my daughter's first car, it was a Volvo XC60 that was almost 4 years old.  The CarFax report indicated it had been in a front end collision without airbag deployment.  So basically a fender bender.  And since it was a CPO, we didn't worry about it.  Then about a year and a half in the paint on the front bumper started peeling off.  Took it to the body shop and they said since it was plastic, it had to be properly prepped and use a special additive in the paint and they apparently hadn't done that.  Hence the peeling.



Huntn said:


> It’s a rebuilt title. I spoke with my mechanic who says *if the frame was cut and rewekded to avoid it.* He may get a chance to look at it if the seller decides to submit to an inspection.




This is actually becoming a serious issue for repair shops.  My daughter's baby sitter when she was young got married and her husband is a certified Audi welder.  He is the only one allowed to weld on Audi's at the Penske Automotive dealer he works for.  If they are not rewelded back to spec, if they are in another collision they car may not crumple as designed putting the occupants at risk.

Based on some of the horror stories he told me, I will not ever be buying a car that was rewelded.


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## Huntn

Huntn said:


> It’s a rebuilt title. I spoke with my mechanic who says if the frame was cut and rewelded to avoid it. He may get a chance to look at it if the seller decides to submit to an inspection.



Good news, the car was sold to someone else, potential bullet dodged, wife and grandson mad at me.


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## tobefirst

Huntn said:


> ...wife and grandson mad at me.



All is right in the world.


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## DT

Huntn said:


> Good news, the car was sold to someone else, potential bullet avoided, wife and grandson mad at me.




We still love you here ...


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## Clix Pix

Buy the kid a Honda Civic Sport Hatchback -- fun car to drive, looks sporty and the hatchback provides plenty of storage and cargo space when needed.  .   True, it's not quite as sporty as my previous Acura RSX but it's definitely sportier than a sedan!


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## Huntn

Clix Pix said:


> Buy the kid a Honda Civic Sport Hatchback -- fun car to drive, looks sporty and the hatchback provides plenty of storage and cargo space when needed.  .   True, it's not quite as sporty as my previous Acura RSX but it's definitely sportier than a sedan!



Been there done that, this time he is saving up to buy a car.


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## DT

For those in the wonder ...

At home, we have a 50a/240v circuit, that has a 40a charger installed.  On the Tesla, we get ~36 miles/hour.

Today, for fun, since we have 960 miles of free Supercharger miles that need to be used before mid-Dec, I popped over to the Superchargers (at the outlet mall), those chargers, at peak, we're cranking about 410 miles/hour, and they're just Level 2/150kW max, there are Level 3 allowing for up to 250 kW on some Tesla models.


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## Herdfan

DT said:


> For those in the wonder ...
> 
> At home, we have a 50a/240v circuit, that has a 40a charger installed.  On the Tesla, we get ~36 miles/hour.
> 
> Today, for fun, since we have 960 miles of free Supercharger miles that need to be used before mid-Dec, I popped over to the Superchargers (at the outlet mall), those chargers, at peak, we're cranking about 410 miles/hour, and they're just Level 2/150kW max, there are Level 3 allowing for up to 250 kW on some Tesla models.




Did a little electrical math here.  So at 240V and 40A, that is 9600W.  At our electric rates of 11cents per kW/hour, it would cost 11x9.6 =$1.06 to go those 36 miles.  Not bad.  That is equivalent to a gas car getting just under 102 mpg with $3 gas.

But in the EU and GB, electric rates can be substantially higher.


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> Did a little electrical math here.  So at 240V and 40A, that is 9600W.  At our electric rates of 11cents per kW/hour, it would cost 11x9.6 =$1.06 to go those 36 miles.  Not bad.  That is equivalent to a gas car getting just under 102 mpg with $3 gas.
> 
> But in the EU and GB, electric rates can be substantially higher.




Yep, that math sounds about right, including the reverse calculated MPG based on $X/gallon of gas (which is a good way to think about it).

The M3 has an 82kW battery, so at (our rate) of $0.10 kW, and then, even assuming only ~80% charging efficiency, that's about $9.80 for a "tank" which should do somewhere between 270-290 miles).

What funny though, is the comparisons to high MPG vehicles, none of which are in the same ballpark performance-wise.  That's where EVs are so disruptive - you've got 4-door, super roomy, sedans, getting the equivalent of 100+ MPG,  that will blow Mustangs, Chargers, even some Corvettes, totally into the weeds  (and in the case of the new Model S, or the new Lucid models, are faster than $1M hypercars ...)


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## Herdfan

DT said:


> What funny though, is the comparisons to high MPG vehicles, none of which are in the same ballpark performance-wise.  That's where EVs are so disruptive - you've got 4-door, super roomy, sedans, getting the equivalent of 100+ MPG,  that will blow Mustangs, Chargers, even some Corvettes, totally into the weeds  (and in the case of the new Model S, or the new Lucid models, are faster than $1M hypercars ...)




Absolutely.  One time when we had to drop the wife's vehicle at the dealer, I had to park my truck across the road in a shopping center because I had a 20' trailer with me and there was no way it was fitting in the dealer's lot.  So she picked me up and we went over together.  Dropped hers off and asked one of the salesmen for a ride over to my truck.  He grabs the keys for the Jaguar I-Pace.  He asked if we wanted to see how it accelerated and the answer was YES!  He floored it when the light turned green and OMG.  Damn.  My parents once had an S600 (until dad got worried that mom shouldn't have that kind of power (he was correct)) and downgraded to an E550 (it was the power and also she had trouble working the COMAND system) and this Jag blew it away.  It had superbike type acceleration.  Was very impressed for sure.


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## Herdfan

Not really a car, but when you wreck or breakdown out in the woods, you need one of these to come get you.  It's called _The Dirty Hooker_.


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## User.168

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## DT

theSeb said:


> Average UK electricity costs are around 14.4 pence or 20 cent per kw/hour. You will be charged less for charging overnight and other off peak periods.




There’s actually quite a few number of options all over the US for time of use type pricing, it’s just not the typical account setup, you have to do a little research.

Here , there’s an option for TOU, fixed is $0.10/kW, the former is $0.03 for the periods, 10a - 6p and 10p-6a, then for those other two 4 hour periods it’s $0.20


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## JohnR

DT said:


> Something about the yoke is a bad idea etc. I can




so a Plaid owner in Ca told me this when I asked about the yoke now that he’s had it a month:
“I love it--going back and driving my wife's X feels cumbersome at this point.  There is still tweaking they need to do on the button behavior and haptics, but I would not go back, even if I got a free replacement”


----------



## DT

JohnR said:


> so a Plaid owner in Ca told me this when I asked about the yoke now that he’s had it a month:
> “I love it--going back and driving my wife's X feels cumbersome at this point.  There is still tweaking they need to do on the button behavior and haptics, but I would not go back, even if I got a free replacement”




And dozens of Plaid owners of the official MB, TMC,  Reddit groups continue to say they would prefer a car without it.

i.e., exactly this:



DT said:


> The new Model S (QA issues notwithstanding) is excellent, the Plaid flavor is insanely awesome, there's a lot to like about it, I imagine for people who decide to purchase the new S, for them, the yoke will fall somewhere between an ambivalent "it's OK" and an enthusiastic, but partially confirmation biased delusion of "it's the greatest thing ever"




You can love the vehicle while still being critical, where it's due.  Like the new 4.0 App, it's a step backwards in a number of areas, I mean, there's a couple of WTFs in the new UI and functional changes.


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## User.168

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## SuperMatt

theSeb said:


> It's finally arrived at the local dealership, so I've booked myself in for a test drive on Sunday. It looks even better in the flesh.
> 
> View attachment 8491
> 
> View attachment 8492



What is it? Hyundai EV I assume. But what is the name?


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## User.168

.


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## DT

theSeb said:


> It's finally arrived at the local dealership, so I've booked myself in for a test drive on Sunday. It looks even better in the flesh.





Holy shit, it looks amazing,  I love the satin looking color on the top car (and the two-tone gray).  I guess that's two different trim levels?  The lower / lighter silver seems to have a stouter wheel/tire package.


----------



## SuperMatt

theSeb said:


> Hyundai Ioniq 5. It looks like a car from the future



I looked on the website (USA) and they don’t even have prices listed for it yet. What price are you seeing?


----------



## DT

SuperMatt said:


> I looked on the website (USA) and they don’t even have prices listed for it yet. What price are you seeing?





About $100.


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## DT

Here's a pretty good article about the Kia flavor of the same vehicle, some good info:









						KIA EV6: In-depth walkaround
					

In this EV game, there are heroes, both sung and unsung. More often than not, it’s the Teslas and Polestars of this world that steal all the headlines with their space-age technology and spaceship designs. But actually, some of the most significant EVs of the past decade have rather flown under...




					electrek.co


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## User.168

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## User.168

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## DT

theSeb said:


> I wasn't sure just how big this car actually was from the pictures and youtube reviews. It's just the right size I reckon. Very roomy inside due to the long wheel base.




The interior of EVs is pretty magic, there's so much with interior design engineering, that has to account for the transmission hump,  gas tank(s), the front dash positioning because of the engine/firewall - that's not a factor when it comes to a BEV.  Some of it may just be perception but that totally counts


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## User.168

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## Herdfan

theSeb said:


> My wife didn't have a problem with comfort in the Ioniq though. *So, clearly there is something wrong with me, or these seats were not designed for a 6'3" 230 pound man. *I am not sure how a larger person would get on with these seats. Maybe if I had some more cushion for pushin on my back, or I was smaller, I would be ok.



Bolsters are not built for us.


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## The-Real-Deal82

Traded my 2018 Honda CRV EX that I only bought in January for a 2018 Peugeot 3008 GT Line. I did mention in this thread I believe, I was having some radio issues and couldn’t get Waze to work through the speakers due to Bluetooth issues. Anyway, I thought bugger it and traded it in for a new car. The mental thing is I made £2000 profit on the Honda due to the rise in part ex costs. Dealers are desperate for secondhand cars at the moment. 










I have to say the drive is lovely. The auto gearbox is so smooth compared to the Honda and the interior is such a high quality. You can tell the same company that supply BMW and Audi now supply to Peugeot. Very pleased so far


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## User.168

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## Herdfan

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> Traded my 2018 Honda CRV EX that I only bought in January for a 2018 Peugeot 3008 GT Line. I did mention in this thread I believe, I was having some radio issues and couldn’t get Waze to work through the speakers due to Bluetooth issues. Anyway, I thought bugger it and traded it in for a new car. The mental thing is I made £2000 profit on the Honda due to the rise in part ex costs. Dealers are desperate for secondhand cars at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say the drive is lovely. The auto gearbox is so smooth compared to the Honda and the interior is such a high quality. You can tell the same company that supply BMW and Audi now supply to Peugeot. Very pleased so far




Good looking car.  Peugeot's have definitely come a long way since they were sold over here (the 505).  I dated a girl who worked as a receptionist at the Peugeot/Sterling dealership in Charlotte.  She was always afraid that one day she would show up and the doors would be locked.  They would go days or a week without selling anything.


----------



## DT

theSeb said:


> Back to my car shopping, In case anyone is wondering why not a Tesla. I don't believe that a Tesla Model 3 is large enough for my needs, but also price is a factor. A standard range+ model 3 will actually cost me more than the BMW IX3 in this country, so it's not even on the short list for consideration.




I would've suggested going from a TM3 to a TMY, the latter is shockingly larger, like the rear seats folded down gives you 68 ft^3 of cargo space.

But I get the price issue, and the IX3 seems pretty great, I mean, it's basically a BEV X3.  The US isn't getting that model, here it's the iX (based on the iNext platform) and it's expensive, it's really competition for the Model X ($75K+)

Bummer the Ioniq 5 didn't do anything for you, I hadto chuckle at the "hard plastics" comment, maybe my focus is just elsewhere, maybe I don't care, but things like that barely even register to me anymore.

In fact, it's funny how many vehicles we've purchased, without a test drive, heck, without even taking a look at one in person (outside of maybe seeing them on the road).

Seriously, we bought several cars, ordered, had them delivered without seeing it, driving it, we just sort of read up, spin the big wheel, hope for the best


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## DT

@theSeb 

One thing I have been very impressed with in the Tesla is the seating.  It's just the right amount of support, cushiness, a little bolstering that I think would be accomodating for larger people.

And yeah, the M3 has a pretty "sporty" ride (I believe it's about the same as the Y), that I imagine for some could be a little stiff (and depending on your roads, nearing unacceptable ...).  I've generally driven sport[y] vehicles, so I kind of expect it, but for someone wanting more of a "luxury ride", it's probably not the best option - unless they're willing to immediately do something like swap to one of the aftermarket coilover products that have a "comfort" option.

My M3 Performance model feels sprung about like a sport package 3-series (even a regular BMW 2/3/4 tends a little towards more sporty).  Some things about the suspension are pretty world class, like it uses a double-wishbone in front with a multi-link rear setup - of course like most EVs is has a super low CoG and greate weight distribution (plus fantastic AWD).

Have you checked out the VW ID.4 yet?  Or even the ID.3 since you get that model over there (though it sounds like the ID.4 size is more along the lines of what you're looking for).


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> @theSeb
> 
> Have you checked out the VW ID.4 yet?  Or even the ID.3 since you get that model over there (though it sounds like the ID.4 size is more along the lines of what you're looking for).




I don't know about everyone else, but to me a VW just drives differently.  Hard to really describe it, but there is just something different about them.


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

Herdfan said:


> Good looking car. Peugeot's have definitely come a long way since they were sold over here (the 505). I dated a girl who worked as a receptionist at the Peugeot/Sterling dealership in Charlotte. She was always afraid that one day she would show up and the doors would be locked. They would go days or a week without selling anything.




Thanks, yeah it’s a nice drive to be honest. I did watch a review on it a few weeks ago on YouTube by Doug DeMuro and he found it too quirky for American tastes and apparently it’s not sold there at all. Peugeot have a factory in Mexico but this model isn’t sold over the border. In my visits to the US I’ve not seen any Peugeot’s or Citroen’s at all. I’m not surprised they don’t sell too well over there as I’d imagine they are a hit too small for the price.


----------



## DT

I almost pulled the trigger on a GTI, seemed super fun, quick, sporty, decently roomy / handy with the hatchback - but that was back when I was going to do like a 70/30 split on car expenditures and have a higher dollar SUV like a DD SRT 392 (our eventual choices are much more fun / interesting).

Yeah, Peugeot never really got traction here, but that's a great looking SUV/SAV.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Herdfan

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> Thanks, yeah it’s a nice drive to be honest. I did watch a review on it a few weeks ago on YouTube by Doug DeMuro and he found it too quirky for American tastes and apparently it’s not sold there at all. Peugeot have a factory in Mexico but this model isn’t sold over the border. In my visits to the US *I’ve not seen any Peugeot’s or Citroen’s at all.* I’m not surprised they don’t sell too well over there as I’d imagine they are a hit too small for the price.




You might see a random 505 in a big city.  I haven't seen a Citroen in decades and those were the fugly ones.


----------



## DT

This is kind of a neat thing with the charger Tesla includes with the car (aka, the Mobile Connector).  The plug/outlet side, is modular, and they sell adapters for several receptacles/power specs, and the adapter has logic in it, so it switches the charger to the proper voltage/amps (it supports 110-240v, up to 32a).  It's also very portable, I just keep mine in the trunk.





That's the modular plug part to the left, that one is the included N5-15 (that's a regular household spec plug).

So my BIL has a place in NSB,  he has a dryer outlet that's an N14-30, ordered that adapter, so down there, I can charge at ~22 mi/hr (vs. just 4 mi/hr if using a regular 110 outlet in the garage).   I also scored an N6-50 which is the spec of the outlet we had installed to run the other charger, figured it would be a good backup to have in case the other charger broke - and back when I started all this, just after we got the Wrangler, I picked up an N6-50_to_N10-30 adapter cable, a 10-30 is the older dryer outlet spec (it's a 3 conductor vs. the N14 which is 4, and they're both 30a).


----------



## JohnR

I got a 220 extension cord for when I travel to my sister's house because she didn't have a 14-50 outlet. Of course, now that they are installing a supercharger station midway, I don't have to worry about it anymore.

DT, I don't know where you are from, but if you are ever up this way (kentucky), let me know and we'll have a meetup with the club.


----------



## User.45

No matter how much I wanted a full EV for our next car, I think it's a done deal that we'll get a Chrysler Pacifica plug-in next. I need a car that can fit in ≥6 people or some furniture and to date, no Full EV makes the cut for that.


----------



## DT

World EV Day
					

World EV Day, a celebration of emobility, worldwide.




					www.worldevday.org


----------



## JohnR

Model S plaid sets EV record at Nurburgring 

notice the yoke


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## User.45

theSeb said:


> Yes, a yoke makes sense on a race track. In the big scheme of all cars 7:35 is not a great time, especially for a 1000 HP vehicle, but the driver did have to coast quite a lot to manage battery heat.



I have no idea how these times I ranked, but I looked up a list of the 100 fastest times and this is in the top 40. I was also wondering if what the speed gauge was showing KPH or MPH, LOL.


----------



## DT

theSeb said:


> Yes, a yoke makes sense on a race track. In the big scheme of all cars 7:35 is not a great time, especially for a 1000 HP vehicle, but the driver did have to coast quite a lot to manage battery heat.




Well, it's a 5 passenger, 4-door, full sized sedan, on MPS4S, that'll do 2.5s 0-60 all day around town, and costs (around here) ~$10 to go ~320 miles.

It's a pretty f****ing spectacular time for it's class and a "street config".

It just needs a "track package" with a little aero, better tires, maybe a brake tweak - BTW, I'd say the coasting was probably more about brakes, apparently the Plaid battery setup can run at WOT with no thermal issues.

Totally agree about the yoke - just like I'd said before, it's probably good (on some tracks), mediocre on others, craptacular for general day-to-day use.  Even in this run, I could see some turns that got the yoke a loose in the drivers hand, ratio just seems a little low.


----------



## DT

P_X said:


> I have no idea how these times I ranked, but I looked up a list of the 100 fastest times and this is in the top 40. I was also wondering if what the speed gauge was showing KPH or MPH, LOL.




... the whole power spectrum with an EV -v.s.- a muscle car is not mutually related. Those are two different types of force of motion you’re comparing.

@bunnspecial


----------



## User.45

DT said:


> ... the whole power spectrum with an EV -v.s.- a muscle car is not mutually related. Those are two different types of force of motion you’re comparing.
> 
> @bunnspecial



Sure. Just to be clear, getting in the top 40 for a mass production car is obviously spectacular. 

The speed implied MPH but since its Nürburgring KPH should be the default.


----------



## DT

@P_X see MR thread


----------



## Herdfan

Not about a specific car, but how much does everyone trust some of the technology in these cars, specifically the blind spot sensors?
I went to the race in Richmond this weekend and instead of taking my truck, we took my mom's 2011 E550.  Compared to the truck, the side mirrors are SMALL.  Too small if you ask me.  But they do have the little warning light indicating someone in your blind spot.  I still turn my head and look because I don't really trust them 100% yet.  

Thoughts?


----------



## Herdfan

Since so many of you have EV's, I figured this post would fit in.

I follow a youtuber who posts deals on tools at the big box stores.  This week he posted about Milwaukee Fuel batteries.  So I took a look and sure enough, I was able to get 2 XC 6.0's for $139 vs. the usual $199.  So I bit and started thinking about how much battery technology has advanced.

In this pic, the top left one is a 2.0 Amp Hour, to the right is an old school (c 2007?) 3.0, lower left is a 4.0 and the 6.0.  So I use the 1.5 and 2.0's in drills and drivers, the 4.0 is for some smaller tools and I use 5.0 and 6.0's in saws.  I actually have a 12.0 that I use in a chainsaw.

In the old days, that V18 3.0 would last a couple of hours in a saw, now a 5.0 will last all day.  In a drill, it would last half a day, now the 2.0 will last longer than me.   Part of it is better batteries, but part is also energy management.  The old V18's were dumb.  The new M18's communicate with the tool and all the tools are brushless now which helps.

So what does this have to do with cars?  Just wondering where you all see battery tech going.  How far are we away from a 1,000 mile range?  From quick chargers being as common as gas stations?


----------



## Huntn

Who here has restored their plastic headlight covers due to oxidation? On my 2012 Fiat 500 I‘ve noticed the top third of my head light assembly has gotten frosty looking. I ordered an inexpensive ($17) *Meguiar’s Two Step Restoration Kit*. Guaranteed for a year. 

My impression was the process is to buff out the oxidation and put a coating on the surface. But now that I am reading the directions It says to buff the entire lense until it has a “frosty” appearance and then spray the surface with a coating that I guess makes it clear again.

Is there a way, or a different process where only the oxidized portion is treated? I am hesitant to rough up (make it frosty looking) the entire lense if part of the lense does not  need it. 

So my question is, this how all these restoration kits work? My possible misimpression is that I would only be treating the oxidized portion of the lense. Advice? Thanks…


----------



## bunnspecial

So, I don't think(or don't remember) mentioning that I'm casually looking for another daily to replace my MKZ.

I'd really like a good honest to goodness RWD sport sedan this time around.

The M3(the real M3, not the car that people like to abbreviate the M3) is actually really, really appealing and probably within my budget. There are two issues. For one, I'd love the RWD version that only comes in manual, but Mrs. Bunn Special vetoed that since we do need to swap cars sometimes and there's already one car in the house she can't drive. For another, I can't get over the fact that it's just UGLY. I almost feel like some ICE makers are going overboard on their grills to emphasize that they are ICE, perhaps since the trend in EVs is minimal to no grille.

Under that, there is the 335i M-Sport, which is automatic and is at least styled a bit more conventionally. It has a lot of the M3 goodies to like also. On the other side if it, though, I tend to keep vehicles a long time, and out of warranty there is the "German Tax". Even though I'm a DIY guy wherever I can, parts can still be a killer, especially since especially on a higher performance car I generally won't use anyhting but OEM or better than OEM parts. If I'm not mistaken, too, a lot of jobs also need special tools.

I've ruled out Genesis as a whole, both because I don't like their styling and also I have mixed feelings about Korean engineering now. I know the build quality is generally solid, but there have been too many other Kia/Hyundai products that have had some bad engineering issues that cause real problems. Maybe I'm still a bit biased on that, and after all they're not Daewoo, but still for a car that expensive I'm just a bit uneasy.

Something I wouldn't have necessarily considered came across my radar this past week, though-the Lexus IS500. It checks the V8/RWD box(I know the M3 isn't a V8, but an I6 is just as good in my book) and looks to be an all around incredible car. The 2022 looks to be a mean machine, and Mrs. Bunn Special like the looks of it. It's also auto-only, so meets that requirement(I just wish I could get her on board with a manual).

I'm not ready to do anything yet, but we MIGHT have a winner...


----------



## DT

@bunnspecial 

First, yes, there's only one M3, I always try to use TM3 or M3P when talking about my car 

I totally understand the desire to have easily swapped vehicles, it was one of the drivers behind me trading my '16 GT for my '19 GT (6-speed manual to 10-speed auto).  Personally, where I'm at now, I haven't missed the manual - heck, in the last 3 months, I haven't missed __gears__ at all.

Interesting that BMW has moved away from DCT as the "auto" option in their performance models, to a more traditional 8-speed automatic.  I'd guess cost, complexity of the DCT vs. regular automatics getting really good (the A10 in my previous GT was definitely "not your Dad's automatic")

Anyway ...

Yeah, the giant nostrils, I ... have no words.  Yeah, the 3 series non-M looks much better (the current top-of-the-line 3 is the M340i)

The IS500 is super interesting, first, Lexus, they're just fantastic (I owned one), and I can't say enough good things about the ownership experience (including the dealer interaction). A few years ago I came super close to buying the spiritual ancestor to the IS500, the IS F.  I believe the V8 is about the same spec as it was back then, it's a stellar engine, a lot more like a Mustang, or even an F-car than the V8 in say, a Camaro/Charger, and it's a rare V8 + RWD sport sedan that's also not too far out there pricewise (like some of the Mercedes, and V8 optioned BMW M cars)


----------



## Huntn

A couple days ago one of my tires (2012 Fiat 500) reported low pressure (about 25psi) so I topped them all off using my portable cigarette lighter outlet powered air pump. The next day I came out and got  a low pressure warning on my right rear tire. I checked it and it was completely flat. Thinking I had picked up a nail, I refilled it and let it sit the rest of the day, no leak, and then the next day I drove it about and pressure is holding. I guess there could be a nail that is now holding in the air.  I don’t think a mischievous passerby decided to empty my tire of air, so I’ll keep an eye on it.


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> A couple days ago one of my tires (2012 Fiat 500) reported low pressure (about 25psi) so I topped them all off using my portable cigarette lighter outlet powered air pump. The next day I came out and got  a low pressure warning on my right rear tire. I checked it and it was completely flat. Thinking I had picked up a nail, I refilled it and let it sit the rest of the day, no leak, and then the next day I drove it about and pressure is holding. I guess there could be a nail that is now holding in the air.  I don’t think a mischievous passerby decided to empty my tire of air, so I’ll keep an eye on it.





Maybe the valve got stuck when you were topping them off, and when you filled that tire it "unstuck".


----------



## bunnspecial

DT said:


> @bunnspecial
> 
> First, yes, there's only one M3, I always try to use TM3 or M3P when talking about my car
> 
> I totally understand the desire to have easily swapped vehicles, it was one of the drivers behind me trading my '16 GT for my '19 GT (6-speed manual to 10-speed auto).  Personally, where I'm at now, I haven't missed the manual - heck, in the last 3 months, I haven't missed __gears__ at all.
> 
> Interesting that BMW has moved away from DCT as the "auto" option in their performance models, to a more traditional 8-speed automatic.  I'd guess cost, complexity of the DCT vs. regular automatics getting really good (the A10 in my previous GT was definitely "not your Dad's automatic")
> 
> Anyway ...
> 
> Yeah, the giant nostrils, I ... have no words.  Yeah, the 3 series non-M looks much better (the current top-of-the-line 3 is the M340i)
> 
> The IS500 is super interesting, first, Lexus, they're just fantastic (I owned one), and I can't say enough good things about the ownership experience (including the dealer interaction). A few years ago I came super close to buying the spiritual ancestor to the IS500, the IS F.  I believe the V8 is about the same spec as it was back then, it's a stellar engine, a lot more like a Mustang, or even an F-car than the V8 in say, a Camaro/Charger, and it's a rare V8 + RWD sport sedan that's also not too far out there pricewise (like some of the Mercedes, and V8 optioned BMW M cars)




Yeah, the swapping vehicles is definitely a thing, especially now that she has a Jeep and all the issues that come with that  . She's shopping also and right now a Pilot is top of the list-she wants a CUV/SUV(likes the high seating position) but she's often amazed(in a bad way) at how little her Compass will actually hold. Our "big" suitcases(American Tourister that are just a tiny bit under airline max check size) won't both fit in hers with the seats up. Meanwhile, my MKZ swallows them whole in the trunk with room to spare. We were hauling folding chairs over to the inlaws a few weeks ago-we have 8 of them and it's a game of tetris to fit them in hers, and once again just toss them in the trunk of the MKZ and off we go. The only time it comes up short is in height.

To be honest, a lot of the smaller CUVs just don't use space that efficiently, but that's a different story. 

All of that aside, it's amazing to me that my now 11 year old car just keeps going, while it seems like it's something else every month on her 3 year old vehicle. Coils and plugs are on the to-do list in the next month since I'm at 90K and I can feel the occasional misfire under acceleration even if it won't throw a CEL. Consequently, if her car throws a CEL at 6:00 in the morning when she's leaving for work, or whatever else happens, she can grab my keys, hop in, hit the seat memory button(one of those little touches luxury cars still get you and it blew her mind the first time I showed her it even existed) and go on. I can then take the MG to work(don't tell Hagerty!) or drive hers and figure out what's ACTUALLY going on.

All of that said, I've never known anyone unhappy with the whole ownership experience with Lexus. It's looking like the IS500 might come in at a bit over $60K, which is a lot better than the M3 at over 80K. The 340i(sorry about the model mix up) starts out a lot lower, but BMW is really annoying with how they nickel-and-dime over little options. At least the M3 doesn't have a ton of that, and the M-Sport package gets a lot of stuff I'd want to option up. 

As another little side rant, though, it seems like everyone wants a sunroof, and on some models/trims of cars you almost have to special order to get one without one. I've had one on each of my dailies and I'd frankly do without one. The one on my Maxima never gave me issues, but I also never used it. My Lincoln LS had a design defect(known and documented) where the drain tubes would shrink to the point where they'd no longer attach to the drains and all of a sudden your A pillar would start leaking in the rain. I finally hacked it together by cutting the factory drain tubes short WAY down the A pillar then running Tygon from the vents down to there, but that was a job and a half given how tight clearances are. Now my MKZ, if I inadvertently roll it back, for whatever reason won't close all the way forward again without help. The first time it happened, I spent two days chasing what I thought was something loose and scraping when it was just wind noise from an incompletely closed sunroof. Short answer-I never use them, have no use for them, and I have a bad track record of sooner or later having trouble with them. 

We'll see what happens. Part of me says that I have no reason to part with the MKZ, but I've never been IN LOVE with it the way I have some of my other cars. It's just kept trucking along, though.


----------



## bunnspecial

DT said:


> And dozens of Plaid owners of the official MB, TMC, Reddit groups continue to say they would prefer a car without it.
> 
> i.e., exactly this:




Needless to say I haven't driven a car with one, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it's even safe. 

Most modern 4-spoke wheels, including the one on my MKZ, give you an area to grip that roughly simulates the yoke. Since reading about it, I've tried driving a few times with just keeping my hands there. A lot of the driving techniques I learned just go completely out the window without the rest of the wheel there. As an example, I learned hand-over-hand steering for larger turns, and you can't do that when you don't have a wheel. I learned after a turn to slacken my grip on the wheel and let it naturally center, but still have my hand around it so that I could grab it if I could. There's also the bad but also common driving habits like one hand at the top. 

I've driven things like go-karts that have something like the yoke, but they're also maybe 1 turn lock-to-lock. It seems to me like sharp turns with over 2 turns lock-to-lock are going to leave you contorted and make you take your hands off to continue the turn-the exact opposite of what you want to do in a critical maneuver. 

That's just one guys opinion, and I'm sure some will discount it given my overall general dislike of the brand...


----------



## DT

@bunnspecial 

I'd say your perspectives mirror my take, and dozens of other people, including some pro drivers, and even some reviews by safety organizations.

At around 4:26-4:27 (in that ring video posted ...) there's a hard left, and the driver's left hand just has a couple of fingers on the yoke, and his right is way over the top, almost down the 9 o' clock position, wrist and elbow all twisted up.  If a driver was approaching that turn with a [round] wheel, they would've setup their hands, done a quick shuffle steer so that at full turn-in, they would be way over the 12 o' clock, all twisted up, and could've kept their left hand securely on the wheel.


----------



## bunnspecial

DT said:


> @bunnspecial
> 
> I'd say your perspectives mirror my take, and dozens of other people, including some pro drivers, and even some reviews by safety organizations.
> 
> At around 4:26-4:27 (in that ring video posted ...) there's a hard left, and the driver's left hand just has a couple of fingers on the yoke, and his right is way over the top, almost down the 9 o' clock position, wrist and elbow all twisted up.  If a driver was approaching that turn with a [round] wheel, they would've setup their hands, done a quick shuffle steer so that at full turn-in, they would be way over the 12 o' clock, all twisted up, and could've kept their left hand securely on the wheel.




In general, watching that video, I feel like a lot of the turns are "sloppy" compared to vehicles with more conventional wheels. Here's one, for example, with an M3(the real one) and M2 on the track together






Watch hand position in particular between the two videos, it looks to me like the Plaid driver could have cut some of the wandering and taken the turns better if they weren't twisting their wrists into pretzels going around them. The M3 driver seems to keep speeds of 90+ km/h where the Plaid was dropping to ~80 in similar turns. I think, as is often the case in this sort of stuff, that Teslas in general can turn out good times in a situation like this because they're able to make up the lost speed in the curves so easily in the straights. That's nothing new-watch a race between say a 60s Mustang and a similar age Healey, Triumph, or even MG and the Mustang usually comes out on top because they can out-accelerate in the straights despite not being able to turn to save their lives. The little sportscars do surprisingly well in spite of having a lot less power because they can corner so much better. 

To get back to the yoke, though, I definitely see points(like the one you mentioned) where, IMO, the Plaid driver could have shaved a few more seconds just by having a wheel to grab. 

The ever-insufferable Musk seems to have dug his heels in on this, though, and apparently the yoke is going to be the only option on the Plaid. We'll see if the government agrees, though, and it may happen if there are accidents where better/more conventional controls would have helped.


----------



## DT

bunnspecial said:


> The ever-insufferable Musk seems to have dug his heels in on this, though, and apparently the yoke is going to be the only option on the Plaid. We'll see if the government agrees, though, and it may happen if there are accidents where better/more conventional controls would have helped.





Good video!

The real litmus test would've been to offer both steering options, track, and report on steering choice percentages.

And yeah, this is one of those times where you can't separate the personality of the CEO from the product, as this is purely a subjective design choice with him.


----------



## DT

The new Kia EV6 BEV (a sort of "twin" to Hyundai Ioniq 5) been getting pretty rave reviews:






Does quite a few things right, kind of a big deal for Kia in that it's their first vehicle that falls into a luxury segment, and it's an EV platform that will also be the foundation for a number of less expensive models.


----------



## bunnspecial

DT said:


> Good video!
> 
> The real litmus test would've been to offer both steering options, track, and report on steering choice percentages.
> 
> And yeah, this is one of those times where you can't separate the personality of the CEO from the product, as this is purely a subjective design choice with him.




I had that same thought as I was typing up that response. 

I'd be shocked if the same driver weren't able to shave at least several seconds off with a wheel than the yoke and everything else otherwise the same. 

Given how-as you say-the personality is inseperable from the product in this case, if that were done I seriously doubt the results would be made public.


----------



## bunnspecial

Another random thought, too not completely related to the yoke but on my comments on the drive above-

One of the things I've noticed is that Teslas have great 0-60 times-among the best for a 4-wheeled vehicle at any price point-but they often get beat by more powerful ICE in the quarter mile and longer as most powerful ICE cars are only starting to get wound up at ~60mph and EVs are often starting to run out of steam. 60-100mph or even 0-100mph times aren't always the easiest to find, and I'd be curious to see how the Plaid compares to higher end ICEs.

In a situation like the above, I mentioned earlier Teslas having an advantage accelerating back on the straights, but at the speeds involved I don't know how stark that advantage is. As always, just being able to keep your speed is better than dumping it and getting it back. 

So, with that in mind, I'm wondering if Tesla is losing even more with the yoke causing more slow-down than might be needed with a wheel.


----------



## DT

bunnspecial said:


> Another random thought, too not completely related to the yoke but on my comments on the drive above-
> 
> One of the things I've noticed is that Teslas have great 0-60 times-among the best for a 4-wheeled vehicle at any price point-but they often get beat by more powerful ICE in the quarter mile and longer as most powerful ICE cars are only starting to get wound up at ~60mph and EVs are often starting to run out of steam. 60-100mph or even 0-100mph times aren't always the easiest to find, and I'd be curious to see how the Plaid compares to higher end ICEs.
> 
> In a situation like the above, I mentioned earlier Teslas having an advantage accelerating back on the straights, but at the speeds involved I don't know how stark that advantage is. As always, just being able to keep your speed is better than dumping it and getting it back.
> 
> So, with that in mind, I'm wondering if Tesla is losing even more with the yoke causing more slow-down than might be needed with a wheel.




The Plaid destroys most ICE vehicles in the 1/4 mile, it's running very low 9s over 150MPH, and it's consistent, and it doesn't lose power race after race.

This guy drag races a ton, hahaha, the track kept threatening to throw him off, I think there's a 9.50 breakpoint for requiring extra safety gear, then they let him run it wide open at some point:



			https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtzceK2L9HqGp7utkkFP7MA
		


My M3P apparently runs pretty consistent 11.6-11.7, at 114-115 which is quick too, I mean, my 3rd Gen GT usually puts down higher MPH, but worse times unless setup on tires, etc.

That's the killer thing: stock, street tires (plus 4-doors )


----------



## Scepticalscribe

@bunnspecial: I was watching the most recent video from steph (idriveaclassic) this afternoon - I really enjoy her stuff, and it struck me - and this thought also struck me, while waiting for a bus yesterday, en route to the farmers' market - and watching cars drive by - that an extraordinary number of modern cars are really quite strikingly ugly.

Aesthetically ugly.  Astonishingly so. 

You mention the adjective "ugly" earler in this thread, when discussing BMW, but really, when contrasted with many motors from the 40s, 50s, 60s, indeed, 70s, - modern cars (perhaps, to my jaundiced eye) do seem to be exceptionally ugly, while some of the lines of some older models do seem attractive, to my bespectacled eye.

Any thoughts on this?


----------



## bunnspecial

Scepticalscribe said:


> @bunnspecial: I was watching the most recent video from steph (idriveaclassic) this afternoon - I really enjoy her stuff, and it struck me - and this thought also struck me, while waiting for a bus yesterday, en route to the farmers' market - and watching cars drive by - that an extraordinary number of modern cars are really quite strikingly ugly.
> 
> Aesthetically ugly.  Astonishingly so.
> 
> You mention the adjective "ugly" earler in this thread, when discussing BMW, but really, when contrasted with many motors from the 40s, 50s, 60s, indeed, 70s, - modern cars (perhaps, to my jaundiced eye) do seem to be exceptionally ugly, whiel some of the lines of some older models do seem attrcative, to my bespectacled eye.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?




Styling does change, and one of my biggest dislikes now is some makers now treating grilles like they were treating tailfins in the 50s. If you look at a lot of modern higher performance cars, the front is nearly all grilles. 

I've noticed too that the US Domestic makes are going for some "retro" designs of 80s cars-Ford has the Bronco and Jeep the Wagoneer, for example. Somehow or another, they manage to lose the charm of the old designs, and I think the new ones are not particularly attractive. 

Some of the changes in appearance over the years have been governed by laws/regulations. The US is a large enough market that, at times, regulations here can impact the entire world, although some makers do make US models. There's also California-spec models, which sometimes have their own pecularities, but California is such a large market that it can sometimes dictate changes for all US models. 

As an example, in the early 70s the US started requiring two things-bumpers that would not be damaged by a 5mph impact and bumper heights that would minimize pedestrian injury. To solve the former, many US cars started getting big blocky foam bumpers, and often the simple solution to bumper height was to raise the ride height of the entire car. That "uglied" a lot of US designs, especially on cars where the European version was unchanged.

Something big changed in the late 80s/early 90s that has had a big impact on the front of a lot of US cars. For a really long time, US headlights had to be a 7" sealed beam unit. Originally they were always round, but rectangular ones came along later. As headlights go, there's something to like about glass lenses that never fog or cloud, and the fact that you get a new and properly aligned reflector every time you change the light, but it didn't allow for a ton of variation. Things like pop-up headlights headlight covers were a product of that also. 

Once manufacturers were free to design their own headlights, things changed a lot. Now, headlights use plastic lenses that integrate into the overall shape of the front of the car and can be distinctive as long as they meet regulations for brightness and pattern. Aside from individuality, that also actually had a big impact on fuel efficiency because it not only smoothed out the front of the car but also allowed more aerodynamic designs. To my eye, that's the single biggest reason why cars made since the 90s look so different from older vehicles...


----------



## Herdfan

bunnspecial said:


> In a situation like the above, I mentioned earlier Teslas having an advantage accelerating back on the straights, but at the speeds involved I don't know how stark that advantage is. As always, just being able to keep your speed is better than dumping it and getting it back.



You mention accelerating back on the straights.  How is the transition between regen braking and then hard acceleration?


----------



## ericwn

DT said:


> A few exterior shots, my GT providing the photo bomb in the background on a couple  Love they maintain the iconic grill/headlamps, while updating it, and adding way more sophisticated lighting.




It’s just a gorgeous colour! Really nice. I was surprised how modern and complete these newer Jeeps feel inside. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## DT

ericwn said:


> It’s just a gorgeous colour! Really nice. I was surprised how modern and complete these newer Jeeps feel inside.




Thanks, and I just saw a post it's not available any longer (companies tend to have a few cycling colors outside the normal black/white/red/silver).  A few weeks after that pic was the last time the roof was on it


----------



## DT

Finally got a new software update on the Tesla, some additional "fun" stuff (Disney +), some nice tweaks to controls, including a new "car wash" mode (turns off auto wipers, locks the charge port, so these things don't trigger), and as always, tweaks to core vehicle functions.

@quagmire Did you get this yet? I went from 2021.4.21 to 2021.32.21


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## DT

@theSeb Did you see the video I posted about the Kia EV6?  I know  you checked out an Ioniq 5, wondering if the Kia flavor improves on the things you didn't like[?]


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Finally got a new software update on the Tesla, some additional "fun" stuff (Disney +), some nice tweaks to controls, including a new "car wash" mode (turns off auto wipers, locks the charge port, so these things don't trigger), and as always, tweaks to core vehicle functions.
> 
> @quagmire Did you get this yet? I went from 2021.4.21 to 2021.32.21




Not yet. Still stuck on 4.21.3


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Not yet. Still stuck on 4.21.3




Mine updated after I made some threatening remarks at my car ...   

FWIW, I was on the same specific revision as you, 2021.4.21.3, this update they dropped the last place version identifier, so it's just 2021.32.21

Apparently the versioning methodology is year.week.build, so a 2021.32 is a branch started in Week 32 of 2021, i.e., 08-09-2021 - 08-15-2021 (and build being an incrementing sequence, usually denoting a fix vs. a feature).


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Mine updated after I made some threatening remarks at my car ...
> 
> FWIW, I was on the same specific revision as you, 2021.4.21.3, this update they dropped the last place version identifier, so it's just 2021.32.21
> 
> Apparently the versioning methodology is year.week.build, so a 2021.32 is a branch started in Week 32 of 2021, i.e., 08-09-2021 - 08-15-2021 (and build being an incrementing sequence, usually denoting a fix vs. a feature).




big question is when do we get 2021.36? Tesla App 4.1 brings features that only .36 has and to my knowledge no Tesla has it yet.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> big question is when do we get 2021.36? Tesla App 4.1 brings features that only .36 has and to my knowledge no Tesla has it yet.




Oh yeah, I just "force updated" my Tesla app, didn't realize 4.1 was out!

Yay!  My interior color finally matches   Hahaha, on the app, in the climate function it showed my car as having the black/wood interior


----------



## Herdfan

So I go away for the weekend and the wife buys this:




It's a 2019 Range Rover Sport with 26K miles.  It was not a CPO but added the extended LR warranty out to 7/100.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## SuperMatt

theSeb said:


> I am still undecided on what electric car to buy. My heart says Ioniq 5, but the head (and the wife) says BMW IX3. I find it hard though to justify purchasing a vehicle that I find so boring on the outside. It makes me want to fall asleep every time I see a normal X3 and the IX3 looks exactly the same. The Hyundai makes me smile and looks great from every angle to my eyes. But I will spend far more time on the inside and that's where the BMW wins comfortably. I see Mercedes have an electric GLB coming out, which I don't mind the looks of, but the battery and therefore range is worse than either of the other cars. The recently announced EQE looks absolutely awful, so I have no interest in that and I expect it to be rather pricey.



I like the Audi e-tron… its price may be comparable to the BMW? At least for the entry level… you can configure it up to over $100K…


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## DT

Did you totally remove Tesla from consideration?

A few things I'd say, after 3-1/2 months, are a non-issue (and I often see them mentioned by non-owners):

The company / Musk, you know, all the nutty shit that has little to do with actual ownership.

The interior configuration, i.e., the single centralized display (obv. talking 3 and Y), it's just zero issue (this is coming from a driver/"Car Guy")


The upsides vs. other EVs:

Significantly better charging infrastructure, YMMV based on area/country

Higher performance options (which of course cost more)

And then I guess I'd consider things like tech, the AWD system (it's very slick), it has solid visibility, super comfy seating


I also realize price may be a factor, so it may be completely off the table, I'm not sure how it prices in the real world, in your part of the world vs. all the other options.


----------



## DT

Tesla finally releasing their CCS adapter, which will allow Tesla cars with their connector (North America, Japan), to use DC Fast Chargers that are __not__ Tesla Superchargers, which really opens up the charging options for long[er] range driving!


----------



## Herdfan

Herdfan said:


> So I go away for the weekend and the wife buys this:
> 
> View attachment 9002
> It's a 2019 Range Rover Sport with 26K miles.  It was not a CPO but added the extended LR warranty out to 7/100.




Finally got to pick it up yesterday morning in Chicago and drive it back.

It is a so much nicer vehicle than her LR4 was, to the point she told me she wished she had let me talk her into one 5 years ago when she got her last LR4.  She loves Land Rover's, but hates their "new look" of the rears being squashed down.  Which is why she just replaced one LR4 with another.  But since they are no longer available and hers was nearing the 100K out-of-warranty limit, she had to do something.   And this was one of the least squashed. 

But it was in great shape and drove like a dream.  Which kind of surprised me given it weights several hundred pounds less than her LR4.  

The question is how many neighbors will notice given she replaced one Green Land Rover with another green Land Rover.


----------



## DT

British cars are way out of my wheelhouse, but even I know the name Joe Curto 

Sounds like a good solve!

You might find this kind of fun, National Carburetors is a pretty huge carburetors manufacturer/distributor, HQ'ed right up in Jacksonville, and they also have a restaurant (I think it's the son or grandson of the founder) here in St. Aug, Obi’s Fillin’ Station, it's a burger joint, all car themed:


----------



## DT

BIL came by over the weekend on his way down to NSB, stayed over, we went a solid local place on the ocean for dinner.  While he had ridden in a much older Model S, it had been a while, he was pretty blown away by our Model 3, especially after talking to me about the operating/charging logistics/costs/etc.

He kind of didn't realize how good of a fit it is for him, there's these mental gymnastics some people go through trying to figure out how it won't work, he was like, "This makes so much sense, and OMG, it's so fast"


----------



## bunnspecial

DT said:


> British cars are way out of my wheelhouse, but even I know the name Joe Curto




I've always thought of him as mostly being a go-to guy on SU and Zenith-Stromberg carbs. Is he known outside that?


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> BIL came by over the weekend on his way down to NSB, stayed over, we went a solid local place on the ocean for dinner.  While he had ridden in a much older Model S, it had been a while, he was pretty blown away by our Model 3, especially after talking to me about the operating/charging logistics/costs/etc.
> 
> He kind of didn't realize how good of a fit it is for him, there's these mental gymnastics some people go through trying to figure out how it won't work, he was like, "This makes so much sense, and OMG, it's so fast"




It is amazing how far people go to justify or use their own situation, brand loyalty, or what they view as being a car enthusiast as a way to talk down to EV vehicles.

On MR the person that shall not be named created a thread for others looking at going EV’s. The anti-EV people seem to come in, spill their agenda, but don't discuss if you counter any of their message. They still come in and chime, " If Toyota hasn't gone EV yet, there is a good reason so I believe EV's are not there yet simply because Toyota hasn't released one". Or when discussing the Prime's limited 3 kwh charger, they try to justify things like, " well I can just use the gas motor to charge to 80% in 40 minutes!" defeating the purpose of EV's. Especially when all I was doing was pointing out the max capability, not attacking the Prius Prime.


----------



## Joe

Herdfan said:


> So I go away for the weekend and the wife buys this:
> 
> View attachment 9002
> It's a 2019 Range Rover Sport with 26K miles.  It was not a CPO but added the extended LR warranty out to 7/100.




That's not a very redneck vehicle. Y'all must be the Beverly Hillbillies lol

Do y'all have a cement pond too?


----------



## SuperMatt

JagRunner said:


> That's not a very redneck vehicle. Y'all must be the Beverly Hillbillies lol
> 
> Do y'all have a cement pond too?



Massively overpriced gas-guzzling status symbol.... Land Rover is what you get since they don’t make Hummers anymore.


----------



## Joe

SuperMatt said:


> Massively overpriced gas-guzzling status symbol.... Land Rover is what you get since they don’t make Hummers anymore.




I hear they have a lot of problems too.


----------



## Herdfan

JagRunner said:


> That's not a very redneck vehicle. Y'all must be the Beverly Hillbillies lol
> 
> Do y'all have a cement pond too?




Believe it or not, I used to be sort of a yuppie.  And once I got my first European vehicle ('84 BMW 325e), I knew I would always have one.  And I have owned most brands, BMW, Mercedes, Land Rover, Saab (yeah, I know) and Porsche over the past 37 years.  The wife added Peugeot to the list when she lived in Africa.  Also, it is the wife's.  She wanted it and she bought it.  She has a good job. 


Cement pond?  Hell no.  I am 100% water feature free.  Nothing but headaches.   I would fill in the pool if I thought I could get away with it.



SuperMatt said:


> Massively overpriced gas-guzzling status symbol.... Land Rover is what you get since they don’t make Hummers anymore.




Which is why I only buy them as CPO's.  Someone else can take that first depreciation hit.  Here is how I look at used vehicles, if they have less mileage than I would have put on them in the same time frame and less "wear and tear" on the paint and the interior in that same period, then I will buy it.  So this one had like 4 tiny rock ships and 26K miles since it went in service 2.5 years ago which is about 10K less miles than I would have put on it.  So we got it.

Is it a status symbol, sure.  Is that a bad thing?  Funny thing is my trucks cost more than her luxury vehicles.


----------



## Herdfan

JagRunner said:


> I hear they have a lot of problems too.




Hence only own one under a FACTORY warranty, original or extended.

This is our 5th Land Rover, 2 LR3's, 2 LR4's and this RR Sport.  The first LR3 (2005) was great, the 2nd (2008) had a grounding issue.  The main grounding screw kept backing out, making the connection intermittent.  The first LR4(2010) had a couple of issues, they had to replace 2 fuel injectors at 83K miles (only had an 85K warranty on that one, so just under the wire) and then I had to replace a starter at 90K.  The 2nd LR4 (2016) was bulletproof.  All of them had a similar issue with the sunroof drain getting clogged with pollen and then water would drip inside.  Easy fix, but kind of annoying.

So we will see how the new one does.  Service records don't show any major repairs.


----------



## DT

@quagmire

Yeah, it's another one of those heavily "agendized" things, like it makes all sorts of sense, even if you're not heavily into being "green".  But for many people, anything related to climate concern, somehow means:  _anti-do-what-I-want-at-everyone's-expense_ (see that Greta thread here for a good example ...), and there's a lot of backwards engineering to attempt to support what is really just an agenda.


----------



## Joe

Herdfan said:


> Is it a status symbol, sure.  Is that a bad thing?  _*Funny thing is my trucks cost more than her luxury vehicles.*_




It's funny how true that is.


----------



## Herdfan

quagmire said:


> It is amazing how far people go to justify or use their own situation, brand loyalty, or what they view as being a car enthusiast as a way to talk down to EV vehicles.




Go into a redneck bar and get into a Ford-Chevy-Ram debate.  A fight might break out.  

Right now, I like Ford's.  But I have had Chevy's and GM's so no really loyalty either way.  I WILL NOT OWN A RAM.  EVER!

Got a ride in a dealer's Jag EV SUV.  That thing was FAST!   At some point we will own one.  Before the wife bought this one, we had briefly talked about a Model X, but I would have wanted the Plaid, and that is just too much money.


----------



## Herdfan

JagRunner said:


> It's funny how true that is.




We had a neighbor who thought she was better than everyone else.  Stuck up snob was what she was.  But everyone liked her husband so they got invited to street dinners/bbq's etc.  I had just gotten a 2008 F-350 diesel.  One of my other neighbors asked what it stickered for, so I told him just over $60K.  She got pissed because it was more than her E-Class.  After they left, myself and another neighbor figured she was going to make her husband buy her a new car.  It took less than a week before she had a new Vanden Plas.


----------



## DT

Yes.  This is __awesome__!







Not active yet, looks like a few more car OS updates away, but this will be nice.  You'll be able to both view live and recordings, not sure if you'll be able to save locally to the phone yet.

A Model 3 had 8 exterior cameras:  3 front facing, 2 side, front-corner, 2 side direct side, 1 rear.


----------



## Herdfan

Read about this motor the other day.  It is a beast for sure.  Only $16K  And the meme is kind of funny.


----------



## DT

@Huntn

This is a follow up to your vacation thread (didn't want to derail it  ), but I did a drive planning with ABRP, using a TM3 (like we own) as the vehicle.  I find it interesting to see how real travel works out, I saw your trip, and I was like, wow, there's a long drive, through an area I have no idea about (in terms of charger availability).

I realize this isn't exactly your trip, and I'm using all major cities as the 3 waypoints, but from using Houston to Minneapolis, with a one night stay over in Wichita (again, just a guess at a midpoint stop).

The stayover, since you're stopped anyway, is "free time" for charging, so it's not factored into the charge time.

So check this out:

1240 miles, drive time 18:47,  charge time 02:09,  cost $42 (assuming no free charging, especially at a hotel)

Neat.


----------



## Huntn

DT said:


> @Huntn
> 
> This is a follow up to your vacation thread (didn't want to derail it  ), but I did a drive planning with ABRP, using a TM3 (like we own) as the vehicle.  I find it interesting to see how real travel works out, I saw your trip, and I was like, wow, there's a long drive, through an area I have no idea about (in terms of charger availability).
> 
> I realize this isn't exactly your trip, and I'm using all major cities as the 3 waypoints, but from using Houston to Minneapolis, with a one night stay over in Wichita (again, just a guess at a midpoint stop).
> 
> The stayover, since you're stopped anyway, is "free time" for charging, so it's not factored into the charge time.
> 
> So check this out:
> 
> 1240 miles, drive time 18:47,  charge time 02:09,  cost $42 (assuming no free charging, especially at a hotel)
> 
> Neat.



We drove approx 600 miles today, started with a nearly full tank, refilled 3 times, average stop time 25min, at Bucky’s a well known gas station brand in Texas, 50+ gas pumps, large variety of eats, drinks, and souvenirs.
I see issues such as is there a charge station in Wichita?
Close to the hotel? 
How many stops to cover 600 miles? How long to charge per stop? Now, I started nearly full, refilled at half tank and was paying about $25-30 a fill up at around $3 per gallon. So let’s call it $80 today.


----------



## ericwn

If there’s one car I really enjoyed owning it was our RX-8. So much fun in the short time we had it.


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> We drove approx 600 miles today, started with a nearly full tank, refilled 3 times, average stop time 25min, at Bucky’s a well known gas station brand in Texas, 50+ gas pumps, large variety of eats, drinks, and souvenirs.
> I see issues such as is there a charge station in Wichita?
> Close to the hotel?
> How many stops to cover 600 miles? How long to charge per stop? Now, I started nearly full, refilled at half tank and was paying about $25-30 a fill up at around $3 per gallon. So let’s call it $80 today.





OMG, Buc-ees is a religious movement   We have one here, they're planning dozens in Florida, hahaha, there were people waiting at 5a for the grand opening ... some in Buc-ees onesies  

Yeah, so that was 3-4 stops to the 634 mile mark/overnight stop, depending on length of charge - EV routes tend to be shorter, more frequent stops, but the total stop time was the about the same in either case, and about the same as your indicated gas stops.  It's about an hour of charging to the 1/2 mark, and about an hour to the destination. For me, when you're talking 6+ hour drives,  there's not much difference in a 10 minute vs. a 20 minute stop, so I might opt for a 3 stop plan (where you're there for like 24-25 minutes vs. two 10 minute stops).

The overnight used my default setting of "Within 500 feet ...", so yeah, it's close.  Also, some of the hotels may have free destination charging, so the trip could be another $10 cheaper.

Keep in mind, this is using my Model 3 Performance as the car (with 20" wheels, wider/sticker tires), so it's getting ~100 MPG equivalent like a small economy car, while being an extremely high performance AWD sport sedan (like much faster than my tuned GT ...) that's pretty roomy and has tons of nice features like crazy good audio, all sorts of driver assistance, etc.

Make it a AWD LR model, 18" Aero wheels and it's a solid 3 stop each segment, and $35 (again, assuming no "freebies" at the hotel).

Oh, BTW ... 









						Tesla Superchargers Coming To Buc-ees, The World's Largest Gas Station
					

Tesla is bringing its Superchargers to Buc-ees in both New Braunfels, TX and Bastrop, TX. The New Braunfels location also happens to be the world's largest gas station and convenience store. https://twitter.com/AustinTeslaClub/status/1447743015574032388 A year ago,




					cleantechnica.com


----------



## DT

ericwn said:


> If there’s one car I really enjoyed owning it was our RX-8. So much fun in the short time we had it.





Great photo!

Yeah, I had 2 RX7s, a 2nd Gen Turbo II and a 3rd Gen (which as I'm sure you know, were all Twin-Turbo).  I always dug on the rotary experience, just something really cool about a 1.3L engine without pistons    The 3rd Gens were just choked by emission controls, poor cooling, a bafflingly over-complex TT setup.  That's the first thing we did with mine, cleaned up all the vacuum lines, went with an higher flow exhaust, including HFCs, some improved cooling, a minor tune, it wasn't a huge power increase, about 300-320 up from 255 stock, but it was super quick because they were so light (mine was ~2800 lbs).

The tuner I hung around at the time, had a customer from Miami that had done a full 3-rotor conversion, huge single, that was pretty insane, ~650HP.

I loved the RX8, I thought maybe there'd be a big move by Mazda towards rotary tech again, but it just never caught on, and they never got the economy of scale needed to really adapt it / perfect it, across more products.


----------



## Huntn

DT said:


> OMG, Buc-ees is a religious movement   We have one here, they're planning dozens of Florida, hahaha, there were people waiting at 5a for the grand opening ... some in Buc-ees onesies
> 
> Yeah, so that was 3-4 stops to the 634 mile mark/overnight stop, depending on length of charge - EV routes tend to be shorter, more frequent stops, but the total stop time was the about the same in either case, and about the same as your indicated gas stops.  It's about an hour of charging to the 1/2 mark, and about an hour to the destination. For me, when you're talking 6+ hour drives, for me, there's not much difference in a 10 minute vs. a 20 minute stop, so I might opt for a 3 stop plan (where you're there for like 24-25 minutes vs. two 10 minute stops).
> 
> The overnight used my default setting of "Within 500 feet ...", so yeah, it's close.  Also, some of the hotels may have free destination charging, so the trip could be another $10 cheaper.
> 
> Keep in mind, this is using my Model 3 Performance as the car (with 20" wheels, wider/sticker tires), so it's getting ~100 MPG equivalent like a small economy car, while being an extremely high performance AWD sport sedan (like much faster than my tuned GT ...) that's pretty roomy and has tons of nice features like crazy good audio, all sorts of driver assistance, etc.
> 
> Make it a AWD LR model, 18" Aero wheels and it's a solid 3 stop each segment, and $35 (again, assuming no "freebies" at the hotel).
> 
> Oh, BTW ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla Superchargers Coming To Buc-ees, The World's Largest Gas Station
> 
> 
> Tesla is bringing its Superchargers to Buc-ees in both New Braunfels, TX and Bastrop, TX. The New Braunfels location also happens to be the world's largest gas station and convenience store. https://twitter.com/AustinTeslaClub/status/1447743015574032388 A year ago,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cleantechnica.com



The other considerstion we are in a Toyota Highlander hauling a large stash of stuff including 2 computers, 2 monitors, if they don’t exist they’d better get going on SUVs.  Hitting the road for Minn.


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> The other considerstion we are in a Toyota Highlander hauling a large stash of stuff including 2 computers, 2 monitors, if they don’t exist they’d better get going on SUVs.  Hitting the road for Minn.




The thing with EVs (this isn't just Tesla) is they recover a good deal of space.  There's no gas tank(s), there's no transmission - basically it's like a skateboard, a long, wide thin "deck" of batteries, then motor(s) on one/both ends.

So that means that my mid-sized Model 3 sedan has 19.8 ft³ of storage with the seats up, and a Highlander has 16 ft³ (but of course, that's with 6-7-8 seating).  Our recent trip we had a 21Q Camp Zero cooler (which is a beast), a roller dolly (for the cooler, hahaha ...), 3 roller suitcases, 3 loaded backpacks, all in the trunk, with the 3 of us with tons of passenger space.

Seats down, no question, the Highlander get way more storage, that's where you have to look - at in Tesla's products - at a Model Y, which is basically a CUV Model 3, it does an huge ~30 ft³ seats up, and ~76 seats down (vs. the Highlander at 84 ft³ seats down).

Anyway, it's pretty neat, the entire performance, cost, space consideration is totally changed up by EV tech.

We're headed down for a little one night stayover, grill-o-rama (he's been Green Egg-ing for days ...) to the BIL's place in NSB, I'm going to test my N14-30 adapter with my portable charger 

Have a super safe trip the rest of the way and back home


----------



## Alli

I don’t know diddly about cars, so I never visit this thread. But I somehow manage to hang out with a group of guys who do brilliant vintage car restorations. One showed his car today so we all had to go see. Take a look.


----------



## Huntn

Alli said:


> I don’t know diddly about cars, so I never visit this thread. But I somehow manage to hang out with a group of guys who do brilliant vintage car restorations. One showed his car today so we all had to go see. Take a look.
> 
> View attachment 9346View attachment 9347View attachment 9348



I wonder if some of those are kit cars? (Not expecting you to know.)


----------



## Alli

Huntn said:


> I wonder if some of those are kit cars? (Not expecting you to know.)



Very few. I remember my friend’s car when he first started working on it 4 years ago. You could barely tell it was a car.


----------



## Huntn

We are helping our Grandson buy a older vehicle, he reads a lot about cars and has focused on a 1997 Lexus lS400 95k miles, but the seller is asking $9700 for it which I think is high. His reasoning is  it has a good track record, and I say it’s 20+ years old! He thinks that this era car has less stuff in it that can break versus newer highly computerized cars. All wheel drive is great but just something else to break. He is focusing on reliability.

I’ve been looking at the local Twin Cities car market and there are vehicles in the 2003-2010 age group at dealers that sell between $7-10k and some include drive train warranties (extra $$$, don’t know how much yet, because everything is closed today). Those cars are in the range of 110-160k miles.  Anyway in this price range, any suggestions regarding this model car and others? Thanks!


----------



## Herdfan

I just looked on autotrader.com with a max price of $10K. (within 500 miles of 25301)

Found several 2011-2013 Japanese or Korean cars with 90-115K miles.  Best deal looked to be a 2012 Rouge with 112K for $9700.  Daughter's babysitter got one when she was 16 and finally sold it when she was 30ish.  Never had problems, in fact she bought another one.

But expect prices to be higher than normal.


----------



## Herdfan

Looks like Tesla is upping their prices again.









						Tesla hikes prices again by up to $5,000
					

Tesla has increased prices on all of its models. The Model 3 and Model Y are up $2,000 and the Model S and Model X up $5,000.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## DT

This also just happened too, which is pretty goddamn amazing:









						Hertz Order for 100,000 EVs Sends Tesla Value to $1 Trillion
					

Hertz Global Holdings Inc., barely four months out of bankruptcy, placed an order for 100,000 Teslas in the first step of an ambitious plan to electrify its rental-car fleet. Tesla Inc.’s shares soared, pushing the automaker’s value past $1 trillion for the first time.




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## SuperMatt

DT said:


> This also just happened too, which is pretty goddamn amazing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hertz Order for 100,000 EVs Sends Tesla Value to $1 Trillion
> 
> 
> Hertz Global Holdings Inc., barely four months out of bankruptcy, placed an order for 100,000 Teslas in the first step of an ambitious plan to electrify its rental-car fleet. Tesla Inc.’s shares soared, pushing the automaker’s value past $1 trillion for the first time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com



Might be related to the price increase. When people are ordering something faster than you can make it, a price increase is generally considered to be the best business decision.


----------



## User.168

.


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## User.168

.


----------



## DT

Yeah, the thing that I was sort of astounded by, was introducing 100K new EVs, and Teslas at that, into the rental channel.  I bet this exposes a ton of people to an EV that wouldn't ordinarily consider one for ownership, while also getting a ton of additional ZEVs onto the road (which seems like a win-win).


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## SuperMatt

Tesla Eclipses $1 Trillion In Market Value After Hertz Places Biggest Electric Vehicle Order Ever
					

Tesla's stock surge has made the car company more valuable than social media giant Facebook.




					www.forbes.com
				




Is Tesla really worth 10x as much as it was just over a year ago? If you had Tesla stock a year ago, I’d sell it now. If you don’t own any… let‘s just say a 10x increase in a stock’s value in just over a year is the very definition of a bubble. Selling at 333x their annual earnings… um, do people assume every other car maker is going to go out of business and we will all only buy Teslas?

Ford has a $62B market cap, Toyota is $242B, Honda $53B, Daimler-Chrysler $103B. Are you saying Tesla is worth more than double those companies combined?

Other manufacturers have been slow to get into the EV game. However, as the other manufacturers dig in, Tesla will feel the competition for sure.


----------



## DT

Ask me next year around this time when their market cap is $2T


----------



## quagmire

Should just add Tesla to the stocks I should have bought up back when they were on the brink of bankruptcy along with Apple back in 2003......


----------



## Herdfan

quagmire said:


> Should just add Tesla to the stocks I should have bought up back when they were on the brink of bankruptcy along with Apple back in 2003......



And FB when it dropped after the IPO.


----------



## Huntn

Huntn said:


> We are helping our Grandson buy a older vehicle, he reads a lot about cars and has focused on a 1997 Lexus lS400 95k miles, but the seller is asking $9700 for it which I think is high. His reasoning is  it has a good track record, and I say it’s 20+ years old! He thinks that this era car has less stuff in it that can break versus newer highly computerized cars. All wheel drive is great but just something else to break. He is focusing on reliability.
> 
> I’ve been looking at the local Twin Cities car market and there are vehicles in the 2003-2010 age group at dealers that sell between $7-10k and some include drive train warranties (extra $$$, don’t know how much yet, because everything is closed today). Those cars are in the range of 110-160k miles.  Anyway in this price range, any suggestions regarding this model car and others? Thanks!



No help from the forum.  Well the deed is done: 96 Lexus 90k miles, $6.5k, fingers crossed it holds up.


----------



## quagmire

Selling lightly used Model 3 LR for $80,000...... 

Need to afford this beast..... 

2023 Corvette Z06. 5.5 liter DOHC flat plane crank V8 putting out 670 HP. ~200 HP over Stingray only buys you .3 seconds 0-60 time, but man that engine is going to be singing at 8600 RPM. 









						2023 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Elevates the American Supercar
					

Chevrolet Pressroom




					media.chevrolet.com


----------



## DT

Yeah, that's a pretty incredible bit of engineering with the 5.5L NA motor cranking out 670HP.

A buddy of mine said his dealer (very large Chevy dealer in the Southeast, purchased a few cars from them) will place you on a waiting list for a $5K non-refundable, and a signed agreement to pay "at least" $50K ADM.

At least ...


----------



## ericwn

quagmire said:


> Selling lightly used Model 3 LR for $80,000......
> 
> Need to afford this beast.....
> 
> 2023 Corvette Z06. 5.5 liter DOHC flat plane crank V8 putting out 670 HP. ~200 HP over Stingray only buys you .3 seconds 0-60 time, but man that engine is going to be singing at 8600 RPM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2023 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Elevates the American Supercar
> 
> 
> Chevrolet Pressroom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> media.chevrolet.com




That’s nice of you to offer a 10000 lower price than on the other forum!


----------



## quagmire

ericwn said:


> That’s nice of you to offer a 10000 lower price than on the other forum!




I am very generous. Consider it the Talkedabout exclusive discount. Or the MR tax. 

Either way you want to spin it......


----------



## quagmire

In EV news, my parents ordered the Model Y to replace my moms 2013 Equinox. ETD was August, but improved to March 2nd-30th this morning. We shall see how that sticks.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> In EV news, my parents ordered the Model Y to replace my moms 2013 Equinox. ETD was August, but improved to March 2nd-30th this morning. We shall see how that sticks.




Nice.  Exposure to these cars - especially by way of a close friend/family who happens to be an enthusiast - is pretty compelling sales pitch 

Wow, those ETDs are nuts.  What model variant did they opt for?


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Nice.  Exposure to these cars - especially by way of a close friend/family who happens to be an enthusiast - is pretty compelling sales pitch
> 
> Wow, those ETDs are nuts.  What model variant did they opt for?




While I am the beta tester in the family, my moms interest in EV's is actually what got me to look at Tesla's which then led me to buy one. I am still curious how my Model 3 does in the winter with the cold temps and snow.

They went for the Long Range. They have no interest in swapping out the wheels every season if they went for the Performance, nor does my mom really care about the faster times. 0-60 in 4.8 seconds is still plenty improvement over the Equinox's 8.5 seconds in her view.

The $2,000 price increase almost killed the deal though( I have been somewhat pushing they order back in September.....). They were almost ready to just get another Equinox due to it now being $57K. But I did a price break down in car payments and operating cost, that for over the 5 year loan, the operating cost of the Equinox would be $9300 a year( payments, gas based on 15,000 miles a year at 25 MPG and $4/gallon, and oil changes) vs $10,700 with the Model Y( payments+$500 in electricity based on the same 15,000 miles a year at 15 cents per kwh and 4 miles per kwh). Hopefully I did my math right. Naturally once the car is paid off, the operating cost of the Tesla goes way down and further into its favor.


----------



## ericwn

I’m sorry if this is a silly question but since so much of the Tesla business seems online, where do you bring the cars for service? Do they have their own Tesla brand garages?

Is there much to service in the first place?


----------



## quagmire

ericwn said:


> I’m sorry if this is a silly question but since so much of the Tesla business seems online, where do you bring the cars for service? Do they have their own Tesla brand garages?
> 
> Is there much to service in the first place?




They do have service centers which they desperately need to build more of as they sell more and more vehicles. 

I am lucky that I have 3 within 40 minute drive in my area. Goes up to 4 if I expand that to an hour drive. But others only have 1 within 3 hour drive. Due to the lack of service centers, the current ones are backed up. Now if you have a major issue, they will fit you in sooner. But  due to all the ground employees being overwhelmed, this has led to a decrease in customer service.


----------



## Cmaier

quagmire said:


> They do have service centers which they desperately need to build more of as they sell more and more vehicles.
> 
> I am lucky that I have 3 within 40 minute drive in my area. Goes up to 4 if I expand that to an hour drive. But others only have 1 within 3 hour drive. Due to the lack of service centers, the current ones are backed up. Now if you have a major issue, they will fit you in sooner. But  due to all the ground employees being overwhelmed, this has led to a decrease in customer service.




I had a wheel crack, so one tire won't hold air. Happened a couple weeks ago. Earliest they can fit me in is second week of november.  And despite having several tesla service centers nearby, it is very difficult to pick the one I want to talk to.  I would much prefer if each service center had a phone number I could call directly, and not have to routed through HQ.


----------



## quagmire

Cmaier said:


> I had a wheel crack, so one tire won't hold air. Happened a couple weeks ago. Earliest they can fit me in is second week of november.  And despite having several tesla service centers nearby, it is very difficult to pick the one I want to talk to.  I would much prefer if each service center had a phone number I could call directly, and not have to routed through HQ.




Oooof...... Yeah that goes to better customer service. It is sadly Tesla's biggest drawback. Great car, but hopefully you do not need to get service done that often. 

On another note..... Why does it feel like my car is a red headed step child? It took forever to get to 32.21 which finally gave me Disney+ and car wash mode. Now 36.5 and 36.6 is rolling out which allows the app to control scheduled charging, set what amps the car charges at, etc and my car still says up to date! How long will it take for it to hit my car this time? haha And people with vision cars are getting it so it isn't a radar vs vision branch thing.


----------



## DT

@quagmire

Nice, yeah, my god, a LR Y is still quicker than 95% of the cars on the street, and I was really surprised by the storage space, while it's clearly bigger than a 3, it'll hold a good deal more.

Oh I know, the ever fluctuating prices ... I really wanted to have the tax credit sorted out, but the timing wouldn't work, so I (as you know) went ahead and purchased back in June, but it looks like waiting would've just about offset any possible tax credit that might get introduced (i.e., glad I went ahead and pulled the trigger).


@ericwn 

I think it's pretty much covered above, they have physical service centers, they have mobile service, I've heard both accolodates and raging condemnation.  I have a lot of friends with Teslas, and at least in that close circle of people, service has been pretty outstanding (SCs and mobile).

I think it's all compounded at the moment by "the world", there's a growing list of people with Mach-Es, waiting on parts (without any hint of when that might happen), weird holdups in production, repair, parts, etc., I think Tesla may have had a bit of a perfect storm with insane growth, a so-so existing service model, and the supply chain/HR issues.

I've had quite a few cars, and had make/models known for being fantastic run into costly service, and other models you might think otherwise about, but had perfect service.


----------



## DT

@quagmire

I went logo-less on the front   My intent was to remove, and either Plastidip and replace / get aftermarket - in either case in flat black - but I like the clean look so much, I'm just leaving it off for now.

Hahahaha, I do have a Honda H leftover from my S2K,  I should stick that on the front    Oh, or my Coyote 5.0 badge


----------



## Clix Pix

The other day when I was going to the grocery store I was surprised to see something new in the parking lot:  a charging station for EV!!!!   Just one, though, not several of them.  It wasn't specifically for Tesla, I think the name on there was Volta (?) and the charging-up of one's vehicle was offered for free for up to two hours.  So presumably the owner of an EV can pull into that space (if it's unoccupied and available) and plug in his or her car and let it charge up while the owner is busy doing the weekly grocery shopping in the store.  Very cool!


----------



## SuperMatt

Clix Pix said:


> The other day when I was going to the grocery store I was surprised to see something new in the parking lot:  a charging station for EV!!!!   Just one, though, not several of them.  It wasn't specifically for Tesla, I think the name on there was Volta (?) and the charging-up of one's vehicle was offered for free for up to two hours.  So presumably the owner of an EV can pull into that space (if it's unoccupied and available) and plug in his or her car and let it charge up while the owner is busy doing the weekly grocery shopping in the store.  Very cool!



There is a website (and phone app) called plugshare. You can find chargers everywhere, including some people who share their own personal chargers.









						PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge
					

Find EV charging stations with PlugShare, the most complete map of electric vehicle charging stations in the world!Charging tips reviews and photos from the EV community.



					www.plugshare.com


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> On another note..... Why does it feel like my car is a red headed step child? It took forever to get to 32.21 which finally gave me Disney+ and car wash mode. Now 36.5 and 36.6 is rolling out which allows the app to control scheduled charging, set what amps the car charges at, etc and my car still says up to date! How long will it take for it to hit my car this time? haha And people with vision cars are getting it so it isn't a radar vs vision branch thing.


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> View attachment 9408



I get nervous updating my iPhone.  Couldn't imagine updating a car.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> View attachment 9408




Looks like our cars are sync’d in the update cycle.


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## DT

Nice, scheduled climate control.


----------



## DT

Oh yeah, badgeless front (took this for a Tesla x 2 at the grocery )


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> I get nervous updating my iPhone.  Couldn't imagine updating a car.




Yeah, it makes me a tiny bit uneasy, but also always excited for something new (plus we have another car, and don't drive that much, and 99% of the time, together).

That's the other thing that's kind of astounding, the car just keeps getting better.  One of the x.36 updates is to improve interior cold weather performance, I mean, really?  I update a car via a smart phone confirmation and the heat works better?  Wow.


----------



## DT

DT said:


> View attachment 9408





Got the 36.8 update a couple of days later.  As I've mentioned, the car has 8 cameras, and you can set Sentry Mode while parked, which is basically like a multi-camera security system (using motion sensors). This can be played back on the car display, or, the USB drive can be removed and you can view them on a computer, tablet, etc.

With this new update, you can view the cameras live from the iOS app. Dozens of real world uses for having a live view: check parking situation, confirm a meter, check the weather, for folks leaving work late, check out the parking area for any shady goings-on, etc.

You can also honk and blink the lights from the remote viewer, as well as speak through the cars external speaker. "_Hey, you in the hoodie, I'm coming out with security_ ..."


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> You can also honk and blink the lights from the remote viewer, as well as speak through the cars external speaker. "_Hey, you in the hoodie, I'm coming out with security_ ..."




Or you know...... " Bite my shiny metal ass" 

Sorry couldn't resist...... 

Will need to check if I got the update as well.


----------



## DT

As just sort of a nerdly aside, the update notification actually came up on my iPad (it's usually just sitting on a stand on my desk), and that's where I initiated it.

I saw there's also some new messages/notifications, like I saw a guy had stopped at a SuC on the fly (vs. navigating there), and it informed him he should "precondition for better performance next time".

Neat.


----------



## User.168

.


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## User.45

Renting a model 3 for a trip. Boy, this car is soo overrated. This is the most over engineered piece of equipment I’ve ever touched. The car screams of design compromises and interacting with the gui is like texting and driving. 

I swear, the center consoles design only makes sense if there is a Head-Up Display. I’ve never driven a car where i had to switch focus completely off the road and scan to find my speed. It’s ridiculous. 

Mirror settings in submenu? Fuck that shit. 
Is AC on? Refocus, scan, tap. 

Voice commands to activate defogger? Cancels route in navigation instead. 

The navigation is shite compared to Apple maps. tap on a 1cm button in the right upper corner of the screen x3 to activate follow-me navigation view. 

Autopilot told me to put my hands in the wheel. I didn’t see the screen had it written that i had to shake it a little and not just hold it. 

“Immersive sound” Is largely bullshit. 

Does this car do direct USB play off iPhones? Because BT music murders dynamics and spatial reproduction. 

I couldn’t get the seat comfy without crushing the leg of my kid in the child seat in the middle. I mean 6’3” isn’t that tall to justify this. 

There’s a huuuuge blind field in the right side of the car. Should i just rely on the sensors telling me I’m about cut someone off??

Emergency blinker placed next to the rear view mirror. FFS the last thing i wanna do is look up to find it if i need it suddenly. I know, some US drivers wouldn’t know that button even if their life depended on it (literally ) but it’s indefensible. 


The wind noise was comparable to my i3 which generates sounds as better (via usb audio), and is more fun to drive. M3 handles better but that’s a class thing. 


So the only thing M3 excelled in was battery management and the charger system is amazing. But i felt this car to be extremely pretentious.


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## User.168

.


----------



## User.45

P_X said:


> Renting a model 3 for a trip. Boy, this car is soo overrated. This is the most over engineered piece of equipment I’ve ever touched. The car screams of design compromises and interacting with the gui is like texting and driving.
> 
> I swear, the center consoles design only makes sense if there is a Head-Up Display. I’ve never driven a car where i had to switch focus completely off the road and scan to find my speed. It’s ridiculous.
> 
> Mirror settings in submenu? Fuck that shit.
> Is AC on? Refocus, scan, tap.
> 
> Voice commands to activate defogger? Cancels route in navigation instead.
> 
> The navigation is shite compared to Apple maps. tap on a 1cm button in the right upper corner of the screen x3 to activate follow-me navigation view.
> 
> Autopilot told me to put my hands in the wheel. I didn’t see the screen had it written that i had to shake it a little and not just hold it.
> 
> “Immersive sound” Is largely bullshit.
> 
> Does this car do direct USB play off iPhones? Because BT music murders dynamics and spatial reproduction.
> 
> I couldn’t get the seat comfy without crushing the leg of my kid in the child seat in the middle. I mean 6’3” isn’t that tall to justify this.
> 
> There’s a huuuuge blind field in the right side of the car. Should i just rely on the sensors telling me I’m about cut someone off??
> 
> Emergency blinker placed next to the rear view mirror. FFS the last thing i wanna do is look up to find it if i need it suddenly. I know, some US drivers wouldn’t know that button even if their life depended on it (literally ) but it’s indefensible.
> 
> 
> The wind noise was comparable to my i3 which generates sounds as better (via usb audio), and is more fun to drive. M3 handles better but that’s a class thing.
> 
> 
> So the only thing M3 excelled in was battery management and the charger system is amazing. But i felt this car to be extremely pretentious.



Just to clarify a few things, now that I'm fully awake. Forgot the "best" part:

I turned on the AutoPilot, it went OK first, then it prompted me to grab the steering wheel (which I never even let go), then it showed some text on the screen in font size 12. Then it PUNISHED ME! It turned off and told me that Autopilot is disabled for the rest of this trip because I didn’t hold the wheel! Turns out, the text on the screen was to jiggle the wheel.… I still feel dirty about this robot S&M deal.


This car is Elon. An essentially cool concept, a few brilliant solutions, but all drowned in just crazy wackiness. Anytime I turned on AP I had a Elon's voice echoing in my mind: "I promise it will be fine", which immediately made me scared for my family's life.

I think Model Y could have fixed some of these issues, at least with seating and screen placement (doubt it). But overall, if the Supercharger network wasn't insanely functional I'd say I'd never consider it over an i4 for the same price.

----
Did I mention the panel gaps? There was an internal panel gap so blatant, even my wife laughed when I pointed it out.

----
Last thought. Model Y has a tow hitch. What is the point when the supercharger cables are rigid and you'd have to detach your trailer every time you need to charge it?! this is just so friggin stupid.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## SuperMatt

I saw a Ford Mustang Mach-E in the grocery store parking lot a couple days ago. It looks like a really solid vehicle… and appeared to have a spacious interior too.


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## User.168

.


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## User.45

theSeb said:


> To be fair there are some supercharger locations that allow for car with trailer recharging without decoupling. The rest of your anecdotes are pretty much my feelings on Tesla hence why I ordered something else.



The alternative is an extension cable for the charger. Yet again, this generally sounds like a mismatch between engineering and management (Musk). 

I’ll say that the abundance of chargers for Tesla may still give these cars an edge. With small kids, having to stop every 2-3H is even desirable. My experience with DC fast pricing and availability has been dismal. Anything short of DC fast is nonviable. Tesla calculating the most optimal charge time and  prepriming the battery is not something available to other makes. Yet Again, Tesla is a great engineering company whose main limitation is leadership


----------



## quagmire

You can blame people installing defeat devices for the increase sensitivity and other changes to how autopilot requires you to let it know you are still paying attention. Definitely takes a bit of torque on the wheel to register you're still awake. Another way is adjusting volume with the scroll wheel.


----------



## User.45

quagmire said:


> You can blame people installing defeat devices for the increase sensitivity and other changes to how autopilot requires you to let it know you are still paying attention. Definitely takes a bit of torque on the wheel to register you're still awake. Another way is adjusting volume with the scroll wheel.



Good to know.


----------



## User.45

After about 16H of driving the M3, my conclusions are really ambivalent.

*The Great:*
- The charging and battery tech phenomenal. It's so good this has been the closest "real car" experience I've had with an EV. Zero range anxiety. 
- The AC/heating had little perceived impact on range.*
- The car was pretty nimble even between 70 and 90MPH
- Autopilot chimes when it's green light for you

*The Mediocre:*
- Never tried lane-keep assist before, but Autopilot seemed like a glorified LKA system. It's decent, it's convenient but lacks the common sense of a human. For example, I always make sure to keep out of blind zones of other cars. AP does not. We almost got into an accident because of this car in front slowly approached the line towards us, then w/o signaling started cutting us off. We would have gotten in an accident if I didn't take over.
- The quality of ride was Meh. Even though nominally the decibels are probably the same, the sonic signature of wind and road noise is significantly better in my I3 and the is mainly restricted to higher pitched sounds, which makes it easier to hold a conversation. 
- The front seating was decent, I didn't develop butt or back pain during this trip, but once we hopped back in the I3, my wife an I exhaled because the I3's seating is so much better. 
- The sound system. It might be the road noise, it might be the bluetooth vs. USB, but it's just superior on the I3. 
- Space for child seats
- Speedometer. Turns out, you can get used to it's position, key is to have your seat is pushed well behind.

*The bad:*
- The GUI:
The GPS sucked. It is where google maps was maybe 5 years ago, which is baffling to me. I've missed multiple turns because the lane change directions were off. Lane information was actually wrong in about 1 out of 3 times, if they were available at all. In major cities, I3 has 3D navigation which really makes the process intuitive. Apple Maps had gotten really good over the past 3 years. I couldn't even change the voice for the text-to-speech prompts?!
- I can turn on the AC at a press of a virtual button but to turn it off requires menu diving. There's also zero feedback as to where the air is going...unless you menu dive. 
- Doors handles. On my I3 I pull on the door handle and it's open, which is (literally) handy when your hands are full. On the M3 it's thumb in grab handle, pull door. 

*The insane:*
- Mirror setup in a submenu. 

*Final thoughts*
Renting this car made me really appreciate my I3. At 50K the M3 is a way way way superior car. At the 15-20K price tag used, the I3 is just a way better city car as long as you don't want to take it on roadtrips. I think the M3's drawbacks are much less frustrating if you don't have kids and if you're shorter than 6' or aren't having backseat passengers. What bugs me is that the design language would not be disturbed if they hid a few push buttons on the back of the screen on the bottom. BMW has 8 shortcut buttons and it's just so sweet to be able to assign nearly any function to them. THe M3 would have only needed 2-4 of those. 


*WInter range drops greatly because of increased air resistance due to increased air density PLUS significant energy use of heating. While you need extra energy for AC when it's hot outside, the decreased air density will help make up for this (to some extent). So I suspect the translucent roof was a brilliant engineering decision: even if it's cold out, if the sun is up it will significantly contribute to the heating of the car saving energy. The extra AC need in the summer will just balance the range out.


----------



## Herdfan

P_X said:


> *The Mediocre:*
> - Never tried lane-keep assist before, but Autopilot seemed like a glorified LKA system. It's decent, it's convenient but lacks the common sense of a human. For example, I always make sure to keep out of blind zones of other cars. AP does not. We almost got into an accident because of this car in front slowly approached the line towards us, then w/o signaling started cutting us off. We would have gotten in an accident if I didn't take over.




This would seem to be more Bad than Mediocre.  

My daughter didn't have her license too long and was taking my mom to the mall and they were driving my mom's E550 with the Adaptive Cruise Control.  She had the Cruise set when all of a sudden a car puledl over in front of her and the E550 slammed on the brakes because it sensed the car in front.  The downside was the car behind them also had to slam on it brakes.  Scared her to death.  To the point she looked for her GLA WITHOUT the Adaptive Cruise Control.


----------



## Eric

Herdfan said:


> This would seem to be more Bad than Mediocre.
> 
> My daughter didn't have her license too long and was taking my mom to the mall and they were driving my mom's E550 with the Adaptive Cruise Control.  She had the Cruise set when all of a sudden a car puledl over in front of her and the E550 slammed on the brakes because it sensed the car in front.  The downside was the car behind them also had to slam on it brakes.  Scared her to death.  To the point she looked for her GLA WITHOUT the Adaptive Cruise Control.



I can only speak for the BMW 5 series but the ACC is pretty spot on but I always take it with a grain of salt to be safe, I always have my break foot ready to go in case someone cuts me off or if a situation looks precarious in heavy traffic at higher speeds. I've caught myself hitting the breaks in situations where I thought it didn't see something coming.

The other side of that is the Traffic Jam Assist feature, when speeds drop below something like 37 MPH the car allows you more time with your hands off the wheel, maybe up to a minute (somewhere in there) and basically handles everything, that has always worked flawlessly. It's a feature I've really gotten used to, almost makes traffic jams into downtime where you can check emails and such.


----------



## Herdfan

Eric said:


> I can only speak for the BMW 5 series but the ACC is pretty spot on but I always take it with a grain of salt to be safe, I always have my break foot ready to go in case someone cuts me off or if a situation looks precarious in heavy traffic at higher speeds. I've caught myself hitting the breaks in situations where I thought it didn't see something coming.
> 
> The other side of that is the Traffic Jam Assist feature, when speeds drop below something like 37 MPH the car allows you more time with your hands off the wheel, maybe up to a minute (somewhere in there) and basically handles everything, that has always worked flawlessly. It's a feature I've really gotten used to, almost makes traffic jams into downtime where you can check emails and such.




It was a 2011 and that was a lifetime ago in terms of the tech.


----------



## lizkat

Bad start to deer season:  this guy drove his muscle car into a pond trying to dodge a deer in the road...









						Troopers: Man drove into pond to avoid deer
					

A man trying to avoid hitting a deer drove his Dodge Challenger into a pond in the town of Laurens on Thursday afternoon, state police reported. The unidentified man was




					www.thedailystar.com


----------



## Herdfan

Interesting article on speeding and enforcement.









						How America Broke the Speed Limit
					

The lifesaving law that nobody wants.




					slate.com
				




Now I will admit I routinely set my cruise at 9-10 over on the highway.  You can blame our state legislators for that.  Back in 1995 when the 55 was repealed, WV almost immediately raised their limit to the new limit of 65.  But Maryland didn't and those legislators who lived in the eastern panhandle had to drive through Maryland to get to Charleston.  So they came up with a law that only assesses points for 11 and above on highways.  So they still had to pay any ticket, but were not at risk of points or insurance hikes.

But I think the bigger safety issue is a lack of lane discipline.  Europeans, especially Germans, would be stunned at how many drivers over here camp out in the left lane even though it is against the law in most states.  It forces faster traffic to change lanes and possibly speed up to get in front of the before the hole closes.  That is how wrecks happen. 

I maintain I am safer doing 85 on an open highway with little traffic than doing the speed limit buy trying to get past the left lane hog doing 5 under the limit.   Some states are starting to pass laws and use media to get the word out, but until they start issuing tickets the behavior won't change.


----------



## ericwn

Herdfan said:


> Interesting article on speeding and enforcement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How America Broke the Speed Limit
> 
> 
> The lifesaving law that nobody wants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> slate.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I will admit I routinely set my cruise at 9-10 over on the highway. You can blame our state legislators for that. Back in 1995 when the 55 was repealed, WV almost immediately raised their limit to the new limit of 65. But Maryland didn't and those legislators who lived in the eastern panhandle had to drive through Maryland to get to Charleston. So they came up with a law that only assesses points for 11 and above on highways. So they still had to pay any ticket, but were not at risk of points or insurance hikes.
> 
> But I think the bigger safety issue is a lack of lane discipline. Europeans, especially Germans, would be stunned at how many drivers over here camp out in the left lane even though it is against the law in most states. It forces faster traffic to change lanes and possibly speed up to get in front of the before the hole closes. That is how wrecks happen.
> 
> I maintain I am safer doing 85 on an open highway with little traffic than doing the speed limit buy trying to get past the left lane hog doing 5 under the limit. Some states are starting to pass laws and use media to get the word out, but until they start issuing tickets the behavior won't change.




Amen to your assessment on lane discipline (from a German, of course). If you want to experience driving hell though, come to Toronto. Just mental over here.


----------



## Herdfan

ericwn said:


> If you want to experience driving hell though, come to Toronto. Just mental over here.




We used to go to a campground just outside of Picton every summer for a month.  When I was 16 my dad made me drive our camper pulling a boat through Toronto.  It was probably a Saturday, but traffic was still crazy, and that was almost 40 years ago.  So yeah, I bet it is much worse now.  After all they call the 401 North America's busiest highway.


----------



## ericwn

Herdfan said:


> We used to go to a campground just outside of Picton every summer for a month. When I was 16 my dad made me drive our camper pulling a boat through Toronto. It was probably a Saturday, but traffic was still crazy, and that was almost 40 years ago. So yeah, I bet it is much worse now. After all they call the 401 North America's busiest highway.




I didn’t know that but yes, the 401 is a disgrace and gets one depressed if you have to use it for commuting. Luckily I work from home exclusively and am not forced to go anywhere close to Toronto anymore.


----------



## Herdfan

ericwn said:


> I didn’t know that but yes, the 401 is a disgrace



It even has its own show:





__





						Heavy Rescue: 401 - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## quagmire

It's amazing how many people are love sick over Carplay and crap over Tesla for not having it. 

Carplay just provides manufactures an excuse to not actually develop an interface that actually works. It was useful in my Camaro, but I don't miss it in my Model 3. I would love an Apple Music App, but zero wishes for Carplay. Tesla's interface( opinions about V11 none withstanding) is actually functional and going to Carplay would be a step back.


----------



## Eric

quagmire said:


> It's amazing how many people are love sick over Carplay and crap over Tesla for not having it.
> 
> Carplay just provides manufactures an excuse to not actually develop an interface that actually works. It was useful in my Camaro, but I don't miss it in my Model 3. I would love an Apple Music App, but zero wishes for Carplay. Tesla's interface( opinions about V11 none withstanding) is actually functional and going to Carplay would be a step back.



I miss Carplay, it was far more convenient when it came to communications and integration with all your iPhone apps. For me, this was a huge step backwards and it's also disappointing that they don't include Sirius XM. None of them are a deal breaker but it feels like they're deliberately bucking them just to buck them rather than simply increasing their reach.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Ulenspiegel

I use CarPlay only for navigation. But it is very important to me.
My nav software maps are refreshed every month. And it is a simple process (1 click). If I tried to do it on my SYNC3 with Nav, oh my... The net is full of SYNC3 update problems.


----------



## DT

When I got access to CarPlay for the first time in my 2015 GT convertible (by way of a snagged/tweaked firmware ) I was thrilled as the at-the-time Sync version was mediocre at best. I also enjoyed it through my '19 GT convertible (came with it OOTB) I owned, the Sync had improved, but so had CarPlay and it was still better - and a seamless experience with the other ride we owned with the GT, a DD/RT. Both of those vehicles had an ~8" display, and CP works well to optimize the space of those (by today's standards) smaller displays (DD/RT implementation was better, it retained basic vehicle controls at the bottom).  CarPlay I've seen on large displays is so-so, it was really a great solution for smaller-ish systems with poor tech.

Now though, it just doesn't do anything better than the native Tesla display, and I wonder how good it would be on a 15" display? I've imagine the implementation would need to be in a constrained window[?] With maybe a full/larger space toggle[?]  The native navigation is terrific, and adds the SuC/pre-conditioning, the messaging is the same, voice activated, all contacts, a text transcription.  That's it for me, I want messaging,nav, music.

Funny enough our Wrangler 4xe that replaced the DD/RT, has the same 8" uConnect setup as the latter, but I've pretty much stopped using CP in it, we have an XM/Sirus sub, I rarely use the nav, messaging is just as convenient through a BT connection to the native uConnect.

The only thing I'd like, isn't even CarPlay:

It's simply Apple Music/iTunes (Podcasts too, but that's a little less of a priority). Just a service that connects to your Apple account and let's you directly access your music, playlists, etc., vs. having to use Bluetooth (not unlike Spotify or Tidal). It's not like the service side on Apple's end isn't available, as there are already versions of this for various smart devices.


----------



## quagmire

Ulenspiegel said:


> I use CarPlay only for navigation. But it is very important to me.
> My nav software maps are refreshed every month. And it is a simple process (1 click). If I tried to do it on my SYNC3 with Nav, oh my... The net is full of SYNC3 update problems.




Tesla's nav maps are updated and are free.

That was a perk of Carplay when I used it in my Camaro since the Camaro's annual nav updates from GM was a $200 charge. So naturally I went to use my iPhone/Carplay for navigation. But now that Tesla updates the map data for free, that motivation for using my phone navigation went away.


----------



## Herdfan

Ulenspiegel said:


> The net is full of SYNC3 update problems.




Ford SYNC 3?

If so, yes it is a mess.


----------



## Ulenspiegel

Yep, Herd. Ford.

What is the frequency of map updates in case of Tesla?


----------



## quagmire

Ulenspiegel said:


> Yep, Herd. Ford.
> 
> What is the frequency of map updates in case of Tesla?




6-12 months from my quick Google search. Though I imagine as FSD matures, Tesla will have to increase frequency.


----------



## User.45

quagmire said:


> It's amazing how many people are love sick over Carplay and crap over Tesla for not having it.
> 
> Carplay just provides manufactures an excuse to not actually develop an interface that actually works. It was useful in my Camaro, but I don't miss it in my Model 3. I would love an Apple Music App, but zero wishes for Carplay. Tesla's interface( opinions about V11 none withstanding) is actually functional and going to Carplay would be a step back.





Ulenspiegel said:


> I use CarPlay only for navigation. But it is very important to me.



@quagmire I agree. Carplay is indeed an excuse for carmakers to not make a decent interface, but at the same time, it's also a guarantee that your infotainment system will be kept updated over the years. Musk understands that the best way to build a brand is to keep supporting the software. That's really what made Apple stand out too. That said, Tesla's navigation is 5 years behind. At this point I'm 100% used to Apple maps specifying which exact lane I need to get into, Tesla's navigation totally failed doing so in New Jersey for example. Nothing you can't overcome with a little extra attention but it's really frustrating when you're tired. Also, as I mentioned before, my BMW's nav shows buildings on zoomed in city maps and that really helps with the navigation. I could not get that on the M3. When I zoomed in, it switched to point-of-interest mode, which doesn't follow and keep the car's position in the center. So as far as I recall I had to take a longer glance at the screen to foresee where the road goes.

-------
I'm still on the fence about Ioniq5 and selling my I3 vs. keeping my I3 and adding an M3. I think people who are super happy with their M3s have 1 or 2 (or more) additional cars. I don't think Teslas are reliable enough to be the sole family car. To me range matters over speed and with their heat pumps, newer M3s can keep a cabin warm for like 5 days, vs. 1.5 day w/o the heatpump (per some youtube tests). Having lived in cold(er) cities, my nightmare is having a stretch of subzero (F) temps and having to choose between getting to your destination or keeping the cabin warm. So the heat pump, the range and the charging network makes M3 a pretty good choice. OTOH, Hyundai decided to only put the heat pump in the AWD version of Ioniq 5, which has like 40 miles shorter range than the RWD. So you lose all the miles you gained with the heat pump immediately... It's so frustrating, it might be a dealbreaker for me.


----------



## quagmire

P_X said:


> @quagmire I agree. Carplay is indeed an excuse for carmakers to not make a decent interface, but at the same time, it's also a guarantee that your infotainment system will be kept updated over the years. Musk understands that the best way to build a brand is to keep supporting the software. That's really what made Apple stand out too. That said, Tesla's navigation is 5 years behind. At this point I'm 100% used to Apple maps specifying which exact lane I need to get into, Tesla's navigation totally failed doing so in New Jersey for example. Nothing you can't overcome with a little extra attention but it's really frustrating when you're tired. Also, as I mentioned before, my BMW's nav shows buildings on zoomed in city maps and that really helps with the navigation. I could not get that on the M3. When I zoomed in, it switched to point-of-interest mode, which doesn't follow and keep the car's position in the center. So as far as I recall I had to take a longer glance at the screen to foresee where the road goes.




No doubt there could be improvements to Tesla's nav when it comes to features. There is nothing stopping Tesla from making those changes given since they constantly update the vehicle. They just need to actually do it.... 

Carplay is nice don't get me wrong. Like I said, I loved it in my Camaro. Just I don't miss it given how Tesla's interface is and does get updates. Just need them to update stuff with the latest features.


----------



## DT

Did anyone else watch any of the Rolex 24 this past weekend?  Pretty amazing weekend of racing, but the finish in GTDP was f***ing off the charts!


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

I mentioned this in another thread but I picked up this Audi A4 Avant 2.0 TDI on Saturday.


----------



## ericwn

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> I mentioned this in another thread but I picked up this Audi A4 Avant 2.0 TDI on Saturday.




Nice one, I wish we had more station wagons over here instead of SUVs.


----------



## Herdfan

A New Brand of Sticker Shock Hits the Car Market
					

With vehicles in short supply, prices are skyrocketing. Last month, 82% of new-car buyers paid more than sticker price.




					www.wsj.com
				




Interesting article about the future of the car buying.  Tesla sure is turning the process on its end.

Edit: For some reason it is now paywalled.    It wasn't when I read it.


----------



## DT

ericwn said:


> Nice one, I wish we had more station wagons over here instead of SUVs.




Wagons never really caught on here, I think there was a bit of a stigma, then SUVs sort of took over at the "utility" vehicle, even though 90% of the people driving them could've just opted for a wagon (if they were available).

Funny enough, I see a ton of posts on a Tesla forum about bringing a wagon to market, basically making a wagaon-ized version of the Model 3 (including the P3D )


----------



## Herdfan

DT said:


> Wagons never really caught on here, I think there was a bit of a stigma,




Could have something to do with this :





A friend growing up had one of those station wagons where you sat in the back looking rearward.  He couldn't sit there because it made him carsick.


----------



## Apple fanboy

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> I mentioned this in another thread but I picked up this Audi A4 Avant 2.0 TDI on Saturday.



Nice leather trim. At least it doesn’t have that piano black interior of my golf. It attracts finger prints and dust like a rare earth magnet. Looks great when you clean it. 30 seconds later, not so much. 
Currently sat at the dealer waiting to finalise my first new car order.


----------



## Herdfan

Apple fanboy said:


> Currently sat at the dealer waiting to finalise my first new car order.




What kind of time frame are you looking at for delivery?


----------



## Clix Pix

My parents drove stations wagons for years -- I grew up with them and, yes, it's really too bad that they fell out of favor and that now we have the monster SUVs hogging roads and parking lot slots instead.

AFB, this is so exciting, it's really happening!!  Before long you'll be the owner of a brand new electric car!   Wheeeee!


----------



## Herdfan

Clix Pix said:


> it's really too bad that they fell out of favor and that now we have the monster SUVs hogging roads and parking lot slots instead.




You do realize the overall length of a Suburban is the same as a 1970's Olds Custom Cruiser.  And a Tahoe is actually 15" shorter.

Maybe the good old days weren't so good.


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

ericwn said:


> Nice one, I wish we had more station wagons over here instead of SUVs.




That Passat I had had the biggest boot of any car I have owned and our SUV’s are tiny compared to those sold in North America. The boot on this Audi isn’t too bad to be honest either. I’ll probably move away from an estate once the kids have left home and don’t come on holiday with us anymore. 

Station wagons as you call them or estates here in Europe are really popular here. I think if I win the lottery I’d be buying an Audi RS6 Avant. All the fun of a sports car but with a boot lol. 


Apple fanboy said:


> Nice leather trim. At least it doesn’t have that piano black interior of my golf. It attracts finger prints and dust like a rare earth magnet. Looks great when you clean it. 30 seconds later, not so much.
> Currently sat at the dealer waiting to finalise my first new car order.




The lack of gloss black on the interior is most welcome lol. Good luck with the purchase. I suppose it’ll be a few months before we see pics.


----------



## ericwn

DT said:


> Wagons never really caught on here, I think there was a bit of a stigma, then SUVs sort of took over at the "utility" vehicle, even though 90% of the people driving them could've just opted for a wagon (if they were available).
> 
> Funny enough, I see a ton of posts on a Tesla forum about bringing a wagon to market, basically making a wagaon-ized version of the Model 3 (including the P3D )




To me an SUV is often times just a wagon with a bit higher roof attempting to look as if it can go off-road. But the industry certainly sold it well.


----------



## ericwn

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> That Passat I had had the biggest boot of any car I have owned and our SUV’s are tiny compared to those sold in North America. The boot on this Audi isn’t too bad to be honest either. I’ll probably move away from an estate once the kids have left home and don’t come on holiday with us anymore.
> 
> Station wagons as you call them or estates here in Europe are really popular here. I think if I win the lottery I’d be buying an Audi RS6 Avant. All the fun of a sports car but with a boot lol.
> 
> 
> The lack of gloss black on the interior is most welcome lol. Good luck with the purchase. I suppose it’ll be a few months before we see pics.




Yes, I’m well aware of the popularity of estates/ wagons in Europe, spent some 39 years there. Especially the German brands sell lots of them. Over here you’re more likely to see a corvette than an Audi Avant


----------



## DT

Herdfan said:


> A New Brand of Sticker Shock Hits the Car Market
> 
> 
> With vehicles in short supply, prices are skyrocketing. Last month, 82% of new-car buyers paid more than sticker price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting article about the future of the car buying.  Tesla sure is turning the process on its end.
> 
> Edit: For some reason it is now paywalled.    It wasn't when I read it.




It's the worst part of the car experience, even when it's pretty good, it's still not great.

We've purchased a couple of BMWs through their web sales, and there was a still a lot of paperwork, gyrations, nothing beats the no-person-involved click-buy of the Tesla.


----------



## DT

ericwn said:


> To me an SUV is often times just a wagon with a bit higher roof attempting to look as if it can go off-road. But the industry certainly sold it well.




Yeah, I think there are vehicles out right now, I'd more or less call a "wagon", but they usually have some other label, like CUV, or Crossover.


----------



## Apple fanboy

Herdfan said:


> What kind of time frame are you looking at for delivery?



Mid to end of April. Not too bad. But those 6-8 weeks will feel a lot longer!


----------



## Apple fanboy

Clix Pix said:


> My parents drove stations wagons for years -- I grew up with them and, yes, it's really too bad that they fell out of favor and that now we have the monster SUVs hogging roads and parking lot slots instead.
> 
> AFB, this is so exciting, it's really happening!!  Before long you'll be the owner of a brand new electric car!   Wheeeee!



I’m so excited. Never ordered a new car before.


----------



## Apple fanboy

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> That Passat I had had the biggest boot of any car I have owned and our SUV’s are tiny compared to those sold in North America. The boot on this Audi isn’t too bad to be honest either. I’ll probably move away from an estate once the kids have left home and don’t come on holiday with us anymore.
> 
> Station wagons as you call them or estates here in Europe are really popular here. I think if I win the lottery I’d be buying an Audi RS6 Avant. All the fun of a sports car but with a boot lol.
> 
> 
> The lack of gloss black on the interior is most welcome lol. Good luck with the purchase. I suppose it’ll be a few months before we see pics.



Mid April. Then I’ll be all over it!


----------



## Clix Pix

Excited and happy for you!


----------



## Apple fanboy

Clix Pix said:


> Excited and happy for you!



Thank you. I thought I might have a bit of buyers remorse (which I often do when spending a lot of money). But so far still happy with my decision.


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> I’m so excited. Never ordered a new car before.




It's pretty fun to do at least one time.  I've had some used cars that were so unused, they were more or less "new", but the experience of being the first owner with an actual NEW car is pretty special


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> It's pretty fun to do at least one time.  I've had some used cars that were so unused, they were more or less "new", but the experience of being the first owner with an actual NEW car is pretty special



Indeed. Getting to choose the specifications you want rather than making do are certainly more appealing. But I’m not thinking about the car after this one for a long time!


----------



## Clix Pix

It really is fun to have a brand-new car!  After I got home with Celeste I took photos of her and looked her all over, and that evening before closing the blinds looked at her parked out there......first thing when I arose the next morning I eagerly opened the blinds and gazed at her again, still amazed that after fifteen years I'd finally bought a new car.   I took more photos of her that first full day at home, and pored over the manual and looked at all the bits inside her, studied the configuration options, played with setting up a couple of things which hadn't been already been done at the dealership, and changed a couple which had been....   It was like having a new computer, but this one comes with four wheels! 

I think it was about a week before throughout the day I stopped periodically looking at her out the bedroom window.  I still look at her last thing in the evening and first thing in the morning though, when closing or opening the blinds....


----------



## Apple fanboy

Clix Pix said:


> It really is fun to have a brand-new car!  After I got home with Celeste I took photos of her and looked her all over, and that evening before closing the blinds looked at her parked out there......first thing when I arose the next morning I eagerly opened the blinds and gazed at her again, still amazed that after fifteen years I'd finally bought a new car.   I took more photos of her that first full day at home, and pored over the manual and looked at all the bits inside her, studied the configuration options, played with setting up a couple of things which hadn't been already been done at the dealership, and changed a couple which had been....   It was like having a new computer, but this one comes with four wheels!
> 
> I think it was about a week before throughout the day I stopped periodically looking at her out the bedroom window.  I still look at her last thing in the evening and first thing in the morning though, when closing or opening the blinds....



Well I'm sure I'll be doping a fair bit of that. Of course at the moment I'm looking at wall charges which will be my next purchase!


----------



## Herdfan

ericwn said:


> attempting to look as if it can go off-road. But the industry certainly sold it well.




We were riding off-road at Windrock Park in TN a couple of years ago.  We were back at the trailhead when a recovery company was bringing in a Jeep Compass that had certainly seen better days.

Seems that since it had a badge on it that said Trail Ready, they thought they could take it anywhere a regular Jeep could go.  Nope, they rolling it and then it got absolutely trashed being pulled back up the hill.


----------



## Herdfan

Got 2 quotes for my mom's old van.

Carvana beat Vroom by $2,800.

Just FYI.


----------



## Huntn

Huntn said:


> My 2012 Fiat 500:
> 
> View attachment 4947
> not my image​
> ...with 50k miles on it developed 2 oil leaks, one at the forward engine seal and another in the vicinity of the oil pump. Is that common, or is this a case of _Fix It Again Tony_? Fortunately I purchased a lifetime maintenance warranty though MOPAR at the time of purchase ($3k).
> 
> This car waited for 3 weeks to get parts. Now the interesting part, although warranty company approved the repair, in the process of disassembling the engine, they came across a bolt that has seized (I think it is in the vicinity of the camshaft) and they were worried that they would break a sprocket (?) and when they asked MOPAR, MOPAR would not cover this because “_the bolt as is was not broken_”. What the hell?
> 
> I would describe a seized bolt as defective and if it hinders a repair, the expense of replacing it should be covered IMO.
> 
> Now the estimate cost of this bolt if broken is $50, which obviously in the big picture, is a drop in the bucket, but MOPAR nor the dealer would cover this expense, and they expect me the customer to pay for this? From my perspective this is not about cost but principle, and it’s absolutely chicken shit that they are refusing to cover it.
> 
> MOPAR has a dispute board where I will file a complaint, and I will check with my lawyer, but $50 is not worth a lawsuit.
> 
> Thoughts?



Did this thread always say ICE, or did the OP change it? You made me look up ICE- internal combustion engine. 

Ref *2012 Fiat 500*, the dealer has the car, they said it is a bent sway bar as a result of impact. I said I’ve not had any accidents or impacts that I can remember except driving over some spots in the road that make the suspension bottom out. You might remember, I have a lifetime mechanical warranty on this car, but that won’t be covered, $1100 to fix. My local mechanic says he can fix it for $800.

Then the dealer says _your drive train bushings are leaking grease_. I asked how much is that and they said _$4000, but it is covered by your warranty_. So far it appears by virtue of the warrant I purchased when the car was new, I’ve dodged some significant bullets. It drives well, and gets good gas milage, but if I had had to pay for these repairs out of pocket, at 50k miles, the car would have been traded in when the engine went.

Of note this:
https://enginepatrol.com/how-long-fiat-500-last/_The Fiat 500 is a small, durable car that can last on average between 200,000 – 250,000 miles when properly maintained and driven conservatively. Based on an annual mileage of 15,000 miles, you can expect 13 – 17 years of service before it breaks down or requires expensive repairs._

Vs this:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/11/06/consumer-reports-reliablity-20--worst/75275986/_Fiat Chrysler vehicles, including Fiat, Dodge, Chrysler and Ram, finished generally near the bottom of the pack, as brand's go. Fiat 500L was the least reliable single model._


----------



## Ulenspiegel

In many-many reviews Fiat 500 considered to be a good-to-drive and reliable car.

We tend to forget about Murphy's law.

(I have been using iPhone since the start. Never ever had a problem with any version. Up until now. The phone is in the service. It happens. I wish you luck, mate).

P.S.: Hunt, the steering wheel is on the wrong side in this Fiat 500.


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> Did this thread always say ICE, or did the OP change it? You made me look up ICE- internal combustion engine.




It was changed   Figured it would be good to differentiate EV vs. ICE specific topics, cars, etc.

Funny enough, for years, ICE was used to refer to In Car Electronics, you know, stereos, monitors (hahaha, gaming consoles ...), I think I still have a show display for my Supra that has a section labeled ICE   The first time I saw it used in the more current context, I was equally baffled.


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> It was changed   Figured it would be good to differentiate EV vs. ICE specific topics, cars, etc.
> 
> Funny enough, for years, ICE was used to refer to In Car Electronics, you know, stereos, monitors (hahaha, gaming consoles ...), I think I still have a show display for my Supra that has a section labeled ICE   The first time I saw it used in the more current context, I was equally baffled.



In car entertainment I thought?


----------



## DT

Apple fanboy said:


> In car entertainment I thought?




Oh, is it?  See, I can't even keep it straight.  At least __now__ we can use it properly, i.e., for Internal Combustion Entertainment ...






* Yes, I know ...


----------



## Apple fanboy

DT said:


> Oh, is it?  See, I can't even keep it straight.  At least __now__ we can use it properly, i.e., for Internal Combustion Entertainment ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Yes, I know ...



There was a billboard years ago for a car stereo company (lol who buys those now!). Pictures a man getting friendly with a pretty young lady. It said. Pioneer, Britain’s second favourite in car entertainment. 

Had a look online but couldn’t find it.


----------



## Huntn

Ulenspiegel said:


> In many-many reviews Fiat 500 considered to be a good-to-drive and reliable car.
> 
> We tend to forget about Murphy's law.
> 
> (I have been using iPhone since the start. Never ever had a problem with any version. Up until now. The phone is in the service. It happens. I wish you luck, mate).
> 
> P.S.: Hunt, the steering wheel is on the wrong side in this Fiat 500.



Well my model and color, ignore steering wheel location.


----------



## DT

Wow!









						It's Official: The Toyota Supra Is Getting a Manual Transmission
					

The one thing enthusiasts have been asking for is finally becoming reality.




					www.roadandtrack.com


----------



## Cmaier

DT said:


> Wow!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's Official: The Toyota Supra Is Getting a Manual Transmission
> 
> 
> The one thing enthusiasts have been asking for is finally becoming reality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.roadandtrack.com



Having driven a stick for 15 years (eagle talon and then a boxster), including in San Francisco, I’m done with that


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

I ceramic sprayed my car yesterday and need to apply a second coat this afternoon using a product by Hybrid Solutions. I’ve had the spray a month but in good old Britain we’ve not had 2 consecutive dry days in the last month annoyingly. Happy with the finish and clay barred the paintwork first to get the tar and other debris out.


----------



## Apple fanboy

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> I ceramic sprayed my car yesterday and need to apply a second coat this afternoon using a product by Hybrid Solutions. I’ve had the spray a month but in good old Britain we’ve not had 2 consecutive dry days in the last month annoyingly. Happy with the finish and clay barred the paintwork first to get the tar and other debris out.



Looking good. Looking at my options when I get my i3. Have to say the Golf is being rather neglected until it goes.


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

Apple fanboy said:


> Looking good. Looking at my options when I get my i3. Have to say the Golf is being rather neglected until it goes.




I think if I’d paid as much as you have for a car, I’d probably pay £200 and get the car properly ceramic coated. You can do it yourself if you have a garage with good lighting as the ceramic is only about £70. Might be best to pay someone though.

The Hybrid Solutions spray I used is £14ish on Amazon now and is decent. A lot of the big detainers on YouTube rate it highly from their tests and it should last 3 months in a British winter and much longer now the spring and summer is nearly here. It has really good water beading so far.


----------



## Apple fanboy

BMW offer it as a service. Costs about £350 though.


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

Apple fanboy said:


> BMW offer it as a service. Costs about £350 though.




That’s not too bad but I’m sure there are places that would do it cheaper and may be more thorough. The i3 is a tiny car so it should be fairly cheap to do and would make your new car look cleaner most of the time


----------



## DT

OK, so I only had one ICE photo from the NYC Auto Show (see my posts in the General EV thread ...), but it's a good one 

2022 Ford GT Holman Moody Heritage Edition (left), 1966 Ford GT40 MKII n.5  (right)







A little explanation about the significance of the Holman Moody gold and red livery 









						Ford Honors the 1-2-3 Le Mans Finish with the Holman Moody Ford GT
					

This special edition Ford GT rounds out the 1-2-3 finish from the 1966 Le Mans race.




					www.autoweek.com
				




BTW, the 1966 on the right, sold at auction, through Sotheby's in Aug 2018 for $9,795,000 USD 









						1966 Ford GT40 Mk II | Monterey 2018 | RM Sotheby's
					

1966 Ford GT40 Mk II for sale at RM Sotheby's Monterey



					rmsothebys.com


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## Huntn

Huntn said:


> Did this thread always say ICE, or did the OP change it? You made me look up ICE- internal combustion engine.
> 
> Ref *2012 Fiat 500*, the dealer has the car, they said it is a bent sway bar as a result of impact. I said I’ve not had any accidents or impacts that I can remember except driving over some spots in the road that make the suspension bottom out. You might remember, I have a lifetime mechanical warranty on this car, but that won’t be covered, $1100 to fix. My local mechanic says he can fix it for $800.
> 
> Then the dealer says _your drive train bushings are leaking grease_. I asked how much is that and they said _$4000, but it is covered by your warranty_. So far it appears by virtue of the warrant I purchased when the car was new, I’ve dodged some significant bullets. It drives well, and gets good gas milage, but if I had had to pay for these repairs out of pocket, at 50k miles, the car would have been traded in when the engine went.
> 
> Of note this:
> https://enginepatrol.com/how-long-fiat-500-last/_The Fiat 500 is a small, durable car that can last on average between 200,000 – 250,000 miles when properly maintained and driven conservatively. Based on an annual mileage of 15,000 miles, you can expect 13 – 17 years of service before it breaks down or requires expensive repairs._
> 
> Vs this:
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/11/06/consumer-reports-reliablity-20--worst/75275986/_Fiat Chrysler vehicles, including Fiat, Dodge, Chrysler and Ram, finished generally near the bottom of the pack, as brand's go. Fiat 500L was the least reliable single model._



*Ref: 2012 Fiat 500 Saga:*
It was the the front wheel drive CV axels, both of them leaking grease, fixed $4k warranty work. I paid $200. Also the sway bar is reported as slightly bent, not covered due to impact damage. I have no clue what impact that might have been as I’ve had none other than a pot hole or two.

Question about the sway bar, if one is bent is this a safety issue? I opted to allow my neighborhood mechanic to do this repair, for less than it would be as a dealer repair, but is there a rush?

Think about this, the car cost $18k new, I added a $3k Lifetime mechanical warranty and have had about $14k of warranty work done on this car. It’s 10 years old with 50k mikes on it. I like this car for local transportation but would not like it if I had paid the $14k if that warranty had not been in place.

Remember, Fiat pulled the plug on the USA market. Is this car a big seller in Europe? And is it as troubled mechanically in Europe? My car was built in Mexico… so much for an Italian vibe.


----------



## Huntn

I opened FlipBoard today to this and thought wow, bold, but then realized it was actually from the 1980s.


----------



## Huntn

Interesting article about automation and a driver, I’ll assume a pro or semi-pro driver complains about it.









						The 2022 Volkswagen Golf R Shows That Sophistication Isn't Always a Good Thing
					

The new Golf R is more advanced than any other hot hatch, but that doesn't make it better.




					www.roadandtrack.com
				




I’ll assume that it’s great for average drivers who want to push the car.  

Now my 94 year old Dad  is so anti- automation he traded in a recently acquired 2017 vehicle, a Honda or Nissan something or other for a 2004 because he’d did not like all the buttons. He seems hostile to a button that starts the car and has had a live-hate relationship with his computer for decades.This is how it is for some elderly folks.


----------



## DT

Huntn said:


> Interesting article about automation and a driver, I’ll assume a pro or semi-pro driver complains about it.




Turn them off, have fun, stay out off the wall 



> You start the party in the Golf by pressing the R button on the steering wheel to activate Race mode, then select Drift mode on the center touchscreen. The stability control automatically switches to its more lenient ESC Sport setting, which helps meter torque to sustain a drift, but you can also run with the safety nets and helpers fully disabled for a greater challenge.




I've driven a number of cars that had electronic control/safety/stability systems, and every one had different drive modes, all the way to providing almost nothing.  Even my Tesla has a Track Mode where I can even disable AWD.

We've got cars that are plenty sporty, can easily do a weekend HPDE event, but then provide incredibly safety and comfort day to day (where most of our driving occurs).  I'm a pretty big enthusiast, and I think all this advancement is outstanding.


----------



## DT

This is pretty fun, one last big hurrah for the 300C

Last of a Legend: 6.4L HEMI®-powered 2023 Chrysler 300C Celebrates Iconic Chrysler 300 Model

2023 Chrysler 300C, powered by the 6.4L HEMI® engine, commemorates nearly 70-year legacy of the Chrysler 300
Only 2,000 2023 Chrysler 300C vehicles will be produced for the U.S.
Chrysler 300 production will end following the 2023 model year
From introduction in 1955, return in 2005 and beyond, Chrysler 300 has represented iconic American luxury and forward-looking design for decades
2023 Chrysler 300C sends out the Chrysler 300 on a powerful note, featuring a 6.4L 392-cu.-in. HEMI engine with 485 horsepower and 475 lb.-ft. of torque
Chrysler 300C reaches 60 mph in just 4.3 seconds and covers the quarter-mile in 12.4 seconds
Additional performance features include red four-piston Brembo brakes, a 3.09 limited slip differential, active damping suspension, active exhaust system and black rounded exhaust tips
New version of tri-color 300C badge on grille and rear decklid announces unique personality of the limited-production 300C
Black Laguna leather front seats sport embossed 300C logo and silver stitching accents
300C interior includes carbon-fiber accents
300C is equipped with premium features, including 19-speaker Harman Kardon audio system, advanced brake assist, Lane Departure Warning Plus, Full Speed Collision Warning Plus and more
2023 Chrysler 300C features a U.S. manufacturer’s suggested retail price (MSRP) of $55,000

@bunnspecial There's the RWD, big ol' V8 you need 









						Stellantis Media - Last of a Legend: 6.4L HEMI®-powered 2023 Chrysler 300C Celebrates Iconic Chrysler 300 Model
					

Chrysler brand is commemorating the nearly 70-year legacy of the Chrysler 300 with the 2023 Chrysler 300C, powered by a 6.4L HEMI® engine with 485 horsepower. The 2023 Chrysler 300C was revealed this evening near the Spirit of Detroit statue in downtown Detroit on the eve of media day for the...




					media.stellantisnorthamerica.com


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## Apple fanboy

Guy I work with has just had his first baby. Just traded his VW SUV for a Skoda Octavia sport something or other. I had to laugh when I saw the black and red suede seats. That’s going to be fun!


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## quagmire

I need this car.


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## DT

Yeah, I'm seeing all the reviews, etc., but I had to laugh a little at the "price as tested" on a fully loaded (with the Z07 package, 3LZ, etc.) for $162K.

I think the 2LZ without the Z07 at around $115K is probably a "good deal" in terms of package/performance.

Part of the price is the overall ownership experience, and I'm not sure the local Chevy dealer could satisfy.  For over $150K you're into a 911 GT3 or a 718 GT4 RS, with the fit, finish, driving and dealer experience of Porsche.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Yeah, I'm seeing all the reviews, etc., but I had to laugh a little at the "price as tested" on a fully loaded (with the Z07 package, 3LZ, etc.) for $162K.
> 
> I think the 2LZ without the ZZ07 at around $115K is probably a "good deal" in terms of package/performance.
> 
> Part of the price is the overall ownership experience, and I'm not sure the local Chevy dealer could satisfy.  For over $150K you're into a 911 GT3 or a 718 GT4 RS, with the fit, finish, driving and dealer experience of Porsche.




If I can ever afford it, 2LZ without Z07 package is what I would get. I want it just for the engine. 

I just hope GM plans to produce this car for 10+ years.


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> If I can ever afford it, 2LZ without Z07 package is what I would get. I want it just for the engine.
> 
> I just hope GM plans to produce this car for 10+ years.




Have they talked about their roadmap?  I really wonder what GM will look like in 10 years.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Have they talked about their roadmap?  I really wonder what GM will look like in 10 years.




They are all in with the electrification of their lineup. 

I think their stated goal is 2035 or so as all EV. I am sure the Corvette will be the among the last to transition over( outside of the upcoming hybrid model coming for the C8). But outside of that, no clue when they plan to sunset the C8 generation.


----------



## quagmire

@DT What has been your experience with ordering Corvette's?

I understand the waitlist for the Z06 is crazy long right now. I probably won't be in position to afford the car until 2026-2027. I don't mind waiting obviously, but do you see this craze for the car to cool down eventually? 

People have been on waitlists for it since 2019. Feels like this is more Ferrari territory now where if you are not on the list now, you won't be getting one.


----------



## DT

I was buying when there wasn't this mix of limited availability + buyer insanity   When I ordered my Z06, it just got put in as an order and moved through the system as expected.

I guess maybe I'd get onto a list now, with some low deposit ($1K or less, an refundable would be nice), and just figure by the time your option comes up to buy/order, you'll be in a position to do so (i.e., it'll be a few years).

That being said, I suspect, given the price (including insurance, consumables) and usability (2-seater, RWD, limited storage), the market segment is pretty small.  It's pretty much in the "old retired white guy" price range at $100K or more, I bet there's a surge for about 2 years - you know, assuming they are able to build them at full capacity (I saw something about the first model year being limited to about 500 units[?]).  Then a reasonable availability (with that assumption) starting in year 3 or 4 - so I suppose if you're at least 4 years out, being on an order list might not even be necessary.


----------



## DT

Wow, GT500 cancelled, not in the '23 order system (and this had been rumored anyway), so only 3 model years (20-22).


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> I was buying when there wasn't this mix of limited availability + buyer insanity   When I ordered my Z06, it just got put in as an order and moved through the system as expected.
> 
> I guess maybe I'd get onto a list now, with some low deposit ($1K or less, an refundable would be nice), and just figure by the time your option comes up to buy/order, you'll be in a position to do so (i.e., it'll be a few years).
> 
> That being said, I suspect, given the price (including insurance, consumables) and usability (2-seater, RWD, limited storage), the market segment is pretty small.  It's pretty much in the "old retired white guy" price range at $100K or more, I bet there's a surge for about 2 years - you know, assuming they are able to build them at full capacity (I saw something about the first model year being limited to about 500 units[?]).  Then a reasonable availability (with that assumption) starting in year 3 or 4 - so I suppose if you're at least 4 years out, being on an order list might not even be necessary.




I am reading the dealer I would want to use closed their list down after it hit 1800 last year........ With people being told who got on the list in 2020 and 2021 expect 2-4 years already.

We shall see...... If isn't meant to be, it isn't meant to be. If a regular C8 is all I can obtain, that's fine.

The C8 is really shaping up to be unlike any other previous Corvette in every fashion especially with supply chain issues. Sounds like GM won't be able to get Bowling Green at full speed any time soon. Or their intended goal with the Z06. I am just hoping the C8 sees a C6 like production run vs C7 production run. Which I suspect it will. Last ICE gen of the 'Vette, etc.

And I rather miss out on it vs putting my name on a list and having to cancel it due to my projections being off/wrong. I only want to order it when I know my salary can support it.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Wow, GT500 cancelled, not in the '23 order system (and this had been rumored anyway), so only 3 model years (20-22).




Demand or simply a casualty of the transition to the S650?


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Demand or simply a casualty of the transition to the S650?




I kind of figured a little of both, but I'm sort of out of the loop.  It appears it's really just being back-burnered until a new S650 variant is developed, they're saying a '25/'26 model (if it happens).

Oh yeah, hahaha, I wasn't paying any attention, apparently the new S650 debuted    Front end looks like an Ioniq 5 




			https://fordauthority.com/2022/09/2024-ford-mustang-debuts-as-redesigned-high-tech-pony-car/
		








Big ass display 






Quote from another [unofficial] source:

_The 2024 Mustang's new Coyote V8 engine will be capable of producing over 480hp in the GT models. The first-ever Dark Horse performance series Mustang will be rated at 500hp. The new Coyote V8 is fed by a dual intake/throttle body setup to deliver better airflow, throttle response, and of course, power._

And still the excellent A10 and a manual 6-speed!


----------



## quagmire

Shame the 6 speed in the GT is still the MT86..... Dark Horse is Tremec 6060.


----------



## DT

That's a nice package, I'll be interested to see the pricing.  I found a bunch of a video on it, hahaha, a couple of the rolling shots it looked like a 5th Gen Camaro.


----------



## quagmire

Been trying to get on a list for the Z06…. All closed. 

I’m at least a year late to the party. Just a shame I wasn’t in a position to know my projected path last year…..  People who were on the list since 2020 are looking at 1-2 years still before getting an allocation. 

I guess I’ll have to settle for used…..


----------



## DT

Who knows what will change over the next few years, maybe they'll build, make a better model, you'll change your mind, etc., etc.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Who knows what will change over the next few years, maybe they'll build, make a better model, you'll change your mind, etc., etc.




I’ve been known to change my mind! 

Maybe when the ZR1/Zora or ERay comes out people will drop off the Z06 list, etc. I know I won’t be able afford ZR1/Zora when it comes out if Z06 starts at $105K. 

We shall see. 5 years is a long time. If GM can produce 5000-7000 a year, that should clear the lists I would think. 

Plus economic doom, etc


----------



## quagmire

Found a local dealer still taking reservations, MSRP, $500 refundable deposit. They are claiming 3-4 years wait( highly skeptical of this), but won't tell me how many are on the list.

Going ahead and putting my name down and see what happens. $500 down is relatively low risk.

If by 2025-2026 with things looking like no Z06 allocation in sight and C9 EV mules start popping up, then will just put the order in for a Sting Ray which as of today sits at a 10-12 month wait it seems.


----------



## DT

Oh yeah, that's about as good as you could hope for, not a big deposit, MSRP, about in line with your timing.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Oh yeah, that's about as good as you could hope for, not a big deposit, MSRP, about in line with your timing.




Yeah just got a reply back from the top 2 corvette dealer in sales last year and their list is 2500 deep and $5,000 deposit( fully refundable until time to order).

That $5,000 is steep, but they would be the best bet to get a Z06 allocation. Just not sure on how many they will get per year. Assuming no drop outs and let’s say 360 Z06 per year( 30% of their 2021 sales), that’s 9 years from now. Don’t think the car will be in production for that long. Now if just 20% drops off, I’m looking at 5.5 years.

While I’m a serious buyer( not a tire kicker which this deposit is aimed at scaring away), it’s still quite steep of a loan to give to the dealer( even though they are highly rated).


----------



## quagmire

Your like reminded to say..... I went ahead and put that $5,000 down..... I am 2450 in line on that list. Come on bad economy getting people to drop off.......


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Your like reminded to say..... I went ahead and put that $5,000 down..... I am 2450 in line on that list. Come on bad economy getting people to drop off.......




Oh fun, hahaha, I'll be cheering on your sideline 

And this is sort of weird?  Funny?   But I might be posting in this thread more in the not too distance future, too early to really say ...


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Oh fun, hahaha, I'll be cheering on your sideline
> 
> And this is sort of weird?  Funny?   But I might be posting in this thread more in the not too distance future, too early to really say ...




S650 in your future? 

Replacing the Model 3?


----------



## DT

It would be more of a direct Model 3 replacement 

Several factors, some business related, but mostly where I am in 2-3 months in terms of what I really want out of a vehicle.


----------



## quagmire

In 2 weeks in putting myself on the list at the dealer wanting $5,000, I have moved up 9 spots which are all drop offs since there has been no allocations for the Z06 since the initial batch in August. If that rate keeps up, should see the car. But I doubt it. Bet as I get lower and lower, the pace of drop outs will slow down.


----------



## DT

Cool.

For the moment, I have backed slowly away from my aforementioned ICE consideration.  When I really think about gas/stations/cost/smell/etc., vs. EV, I kind of shake it off, and realize I just don't think I could do it.  Especially spending the amount of the replacement and it only being a bit faster on the top end (don't get me wrong, a stunning vehicle, but ... gas.)


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Cool.
> 
> For the moment, I have backed slowly away from my aforementioned ICE consideration.  When I really think about gas/stations/cost/smell/etc., vs. EV, I kind of shake it off, and realize I just don't think I could do it.  Especially spending the amount of the replacement and it only being a bit faster on the top end (don't get me wrong, a stunning vehicle, but ... gas.)




Yeah the idea of paying $6/ gallon for premium hurts. But Z06 will be the weekend fun car so filling it up should only be once 1-2 months sort of deal making it more palatable. 

Tesla/EV should remain the daily driver.  

If you don't go through with it, will you still reveal what was being considered?


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> Yeah the idea of paying $6/ gallon for premium hurts. But Z06 will be the weekend fun car so filling it up should only be once 1-2 months sort of deal making it more palatable.
> 
> Tesla/EV should remain the daily driver.
> 
> If you don't go through with it, will you still reveal what was being considered?




Oh yeah, I didn't mean to be secretive, I've been looking at BMW M3 Competition xDrive sedans, even had a conversation with the local[ish] dealer who've we've purchase a number of BMWs from in the past.

The M cars are pretty special, the Comp + xDrive (AWD) is spectacular (and would obviously check a lot of the same boxes as the M3P).

Though the wife said, "_We've had a bunch of BMWs, you should get something you've never had like a Porsche_ ..."



Hahaha, my frugal genetics won't allow for that (she may not even realize how expensive they've become), but additionally, I'm not interested anymore in cars that can't do double/triple duty.


----------



## quagmire

DT said:


> Oh yeah, I didn't mean to be secretive, I've been looking at BMW M3 Competition xDrive sedans, even had a conversation with the local[ish] dealer who've we've purchase a number of BMWs from in the past.
> 
> The M cars are pretty special, the Comp + xDrive (AWD) is spectacular (and would obviously check a lot of the same boxes as the M3P).
> 
> Though the wife said, "_We've had a bunch of BMWs, you should get something you've never had like a Porsche_ ..."
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha, my frugal genetics won't allow for that (she may not even realize how expensive they've become), but additionally, I'm not interested anymore in cars that can't do double/triple duty.




But those buck teeth on the front end........ 

BMW's design language has been going downhill......


----------



## DT

quagmire said:


> But those buck teeth on the front end........
> 
> BMW's design language has been going downhill......




It doesn't bother me on an ICE platform and on an M3 it looks wicked.  I mean,  holy hell, this works for me (this is actually the color combo I'd get, Dravit Gray + Fiona red):















But as stellar as that is, I think I'm done with ICE.

Even a weekend car, how much money do I want tied up in a car that sits even more than mine already do 

I think I'm going to keep the Tesla till it's due back and wait and see what the new BMW EV platform looks like for their upcoming BEV flavor of the M3 (WOTS is 750+ HP and 4 motors  )


----------



## AG_PhamD

DT said:


> It doesn't bother me on an ICE platform and on an M3 it looks wicked.  I mean,  holy hell, this works for me (this is actually the color combo I'd get, Dravit Gray + Fiona red):
> 
> View attachment 18798
> 
> 
> View attachment 18799
> 
> View attachment 18800
> 
> 
> But as stellar as that is, I think I'm done with ICE.
> 
> Even a weekend car, how much money do I want tied up in a car that sits even more than mine already do
> 
> I think I'm going to keep the Tesla till it's due back and wait and see what the new BMW EV platform looks like for their upcoming BEV flavor of the M3 (WOTS is 750+ HP and 4 motors  )




I think it looks substantially better witn the europlates. No license plates is not nearly as good. The North American plates look awful. 

I won’t say the looks have grown on me, but I suppose it’s not as shocking as it was before when it came out.


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

DT said:


> It doesn't bother me on an ICE platform and on an M3 it looks wicked. I mean, holy hell, this works for me (this is actually the color combo I'd get, Dravit Gray + Fiona red):
> 
> View attachment 18798
> 
> 
> View attachment 18799
> 
> View attachment 18800
> 
> 
> But as stellar as that is, I think I'm done with ICE.
> 
> Even a weekend car, how much money do I want tied up in a car that sits even more than mine already do
> 
> I think I'm going to keep the Tesla till it's due back and wait and see what the new BMW EV platform looks like for their upcoming BEV flavor of the M3 (WOTS is 750+ HP and 4 motors )




Is that the Estoril orange interior or whatever it’s called? Seen it on reviews and it beautiful. I could see myself burning through £40 of fuel a day on my 14 mile commute in that bad boy


----------



## DT

The-Real-Deal82 said:


> Is that the Estoril orange interior or whatever it’s called? Seen it on reviews and it beautiful. I could see myself burning through £40 of fuel a day on my 14 mile commute in that bad boy




That's Fiona Red, the orange interior color is Kyalami  Orange (hahaha, these names ...)





Depending on lighting and whatnot the orange can photographic a little red (and vice versa).

But at any rate, yeah, it's pretty stunning.  Though a guy on the G80 forum has one, Kyalami interior and an Isle of Man exterior which is ... green


----------



## The-Real-Deal82

DT said:


> That's Fiona Red, the orange interior color is Kyalami Orange (hahaha, these names ...)
> 
> View attachment 18851
> 
> Depending on lighting and whatnot the orange can photographic a little red (and vice versa).
> 
> But at any rate, yeah, it's pretty stunning. Though a guy on the G80 forum has one, Kyalami interior and an Isle of Man exterior which is ... green




Ah Kyalami, I knew it was an old F1 circuit but for some reason went with Estoril .

I follow Joe Achilles on YouTube and he has one of these with the orange interior. Stunning car indeed.


----------

