# Tesla recalls nearly 54,000 vehicles that may disobey stop signs



## Eric

Those have FSD are probably already aware. There's some speculation as to whether or not this was a planned feature and they got busted or an actual mistake. In either case stuff like this makes me glad I didn't get it, autopilot works great and that's all I really need.









						Tesla recalls almost 54,000 vehicles with the company's Full Self-Driving over 'rolling stops'
					

Tesla is working on rolling out an OTA update that will disable the "rolling stop" issue today. Tesla Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk quickly addressed on Twitter stating "there were no safety issues" with the function. "The car simply slowed...




					tesla180.com


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## Herdfan

Why do they need to be recalled vs a software update?

Of course, not having one I am not sure how all that works.


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## Eric

Herdfan said:


> Why do they need to be recalled vs a software update?
> 
> Of course, not having one I am not sure how all that works.



Right, I don't think anyone has to actually bring them in from what I've seen. It's just a switch associated with the car.


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## fooferdoggie

Ha blame it on the cars.


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## DT

The NHTSA used the term "recall", but that's pretty antiquated, it's really a fix since it'll be OTA, recall sort of implies taking the vehicle to a service location, but this is a case of tomato / toe-mah-to ...


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## Eric

DT said:


> The NHTSA used the term "recall", but that's pretty antiquated, it's really a fix since it'll be OTA, recall sort of implies taking the vehicle to a service location, but this is a case of tomato / toe-mah-to ...



It's surprising how many cars do not upgrade their OS OTA. I drove BMWs for years and if you ever wanted to upgrade the computer you needed a new car. Tesla has completely shifted that and brought a car into the modern day.


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## Ulenspiegel

Herdfan said:


> Why do they need to be recalled vs a software update?
> 
> Of course, not having one I am not sure how all that works.




Cuz it'll get a new feature/function if you run out of juice :


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## User.168

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## User.168

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## diamond.g

theSeb said:


> A recall is a recall. It is term that means something needs to be rectified and has no bearing on how the update is done / fixed, whether it's via an OTA, or a dealer visit. Both of my Mercs had a "recall" last year. We got the official letter, which stated that we don't need to do anything, apart from park the cars with mobile phone coverage (i.e. out of a garage) for a few hours.
> 
> OTA updates to add new features are not the same thing as official recalls. Tesla agrees that this is a recall, as per the link I included above, which has links to the official recall notice.
> 
> View attachment 11488



Lol the report has the firmware version wrong.


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## User.168

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## Eric

theSeb said:


> Report it to Elon and the NHTSA



Elon's busy trolling the POTUS and making fun of his speech impediment but you can try.


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## SuperMatt

Just fork over $14,000 for the new auto-driving package, and it fixes this. Elon didn’t get rich by NOT ripping people off.


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## DT

FSD Beta 10.10 released:









						2021.44.30.15 Official Tesla Release Notes - Software Updates
					

Tesla released 2021.44.30.15 with Full Self-Driving (Beta) Suspension, FSD Beta v10.10 Release Notes, Full Self-Driving (Beta), Driving Visualization Improvements, Cabin Camera.




					www.notateslaapp.com
				




Release notes:

Smoother fork maneuvers and turn-lane selection using high fidelity trajectory primitives.
Disabled rolling-stop functionality in all FSD Profiles. This behavior used to allow the vehicle to roll through all-way-stop intersections, but only when several conditions were met, including: vehicle speed less than 5.6 mph, no relevant objects/pedestrians/bicyclists detected, sufficient visibility and all entering roads at the intersection have speed limits below 30 mph
Improved generalized static object network by 4% using improved ground truth trajectories.
Improved smoothness when stopping for crossing objects at intersections by modeling soft and hard constrains to better represent urgency of the slowdown.
Enabled lane changing into an oncoming lane to maneuver around static obstacles, when safe to do so.
Improved smoothness for merge handling by enforcing more consistency with previous cycle’s speed control decisions.
Improved handling of flashing red light traffic controls by adding more caution for events where crossing vehicles may not stop.
Improved right of way understanding at intersections with better modelling of intersection extents.


The obsession with this NHTSA action being called X vs. Y is f***ing hysterical


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## diamond.g

theSeb said:


> Report it to Elon and the NHTSA



Eh. I am more curious to see if NHTSA comes back and says going over the speed limit isn’t allowed either.


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## User.168

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## DT

theSeb said:


> Yes, it is. The only people obsessed over it are the weird Musk fanboys who get upset over any news site that calls it a recall, when it is factually a recall. This is hysterical and weird. Almost cult like.




Actually the anti-Tesla people are just as silly, which was my complete X vs. Y point.


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## Eric

DT said:


> Actually the anti-Tesla people are just as silly, which was my complete X vs. Y point.



I respect Elon but as long as he constantly makes bombastic political statements on Twitter he's asking to be a lightning rod.


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## DT

Eric said:


> I respect Elon but as long as he constantly makes bombastic political statements on Twitter he's asking to be a lightning rod.





Hahaha, oh sure, and by anti-Tesla, I don't mean being critical of Tesla (don't get me started on the Yoke ...), just like I don't consider someone who's positive about something Tesla related to be a "fanboy" (man do I hate that fucking word ...)

There's a group of people, I mean, they post so much I know them by name, that skulk around waiting to pounce on anything Tesla related ...

_“__Who’s the more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?” – Obi-Wan Kenobi_


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## User.168

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## Eric

DT said:


> Hahaha, oh sure, and by anti-Tesla, I don't mean being critical of Tesla (don't get me started on the Yoke ...), *just like I don't consider someone who's positive about something Tesla related to be a "fanboy"* (man do I hate that fucking word ...)
> 
> There's a group of people, I mean, they post so much I know them by name, that skulk around waiting to pounce on anything Tesla related ...
> 
> _“__Who’s the more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?” – Obi-Wan Kenobi_



That's me right there buddy, I freaking love this car and have never understood all the hate behind it. Yeah, we can criticize Elon for stupid statements but let's face it, he's created a monster and an innovation not seen since the iPhone came out.


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## diamond.g

theSeb said:


> A point of a recall is to fix a critical safety issue in a vehicle. I am not sure what you expect the NHTSA to say about going over the speed limit.



The critical safety issue was the vehicle not following traffic laws right?


Edit. So the issue it the risk of collisions from not stopping. Can’t the same thing be used for Tesla allowing FSD to go over the speed limit?


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## User.168

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## User.168

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## diamond.g

theSeb said:


> You should go and speak to Tesla, since Tesla agreed that this is a safety critical issue and needs addressing via a recall. That's all there is to it.
> 
> I realise that you take this as a serious and personal affront, hence why I could see where you were going with your line of thought from your initial post, but it's ok. It's not a big deal. I didn't personally get upset when my two Mercs had a safety recall last year and were fixed via an OTA. It didn't change how much I enjoy the cars. I didn't comment on news article about this issue that it wasn't really a recall, or tried to defend Daimler AG. Why does it upset a certain segment of Tesla owners? Your car is not an extension of you, or your personality.



Wooow. I don’t take it personally. To be honest when I saw the option I thought it was dumb and specifically chose to use the Chill setting. 

I thought we were just going down the line of things to peg Tesla on is all. Speeding is a valid concern if we were worried about the vehicle following traffic laws.


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## User.168

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## Chew Toy McCoy

Can we also recall 100 million humans who disobey stop signs?


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## User.168

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## Chew Toy McCoy

theSeb said:


> You are missing the point. “self driving” is supposed to make driving safer, because many humans are not, as you are demonstrating. Programming bad driving behaviour into self driving vehicles isn’t going to do that. What’s next? ‘Drive home drunk’ mode? Lots of people do that too.




My comment wasn't made against this type of technology or relying on it.  It was more "while we're at it...".


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## SuperMatt

Many drivers have reported “phantom braking” on Teslas recently.



> Luis Fernandez, who drives a 2022 Tesla Model Y, said he was at Taylor Street and Pine Street in San Francisco recently when his car spotted a plastic bag several feet in front of him. The bag didn’t pose a hazard and was soon out of his view, said Fernandez, who uses the vehicle to drive for Uber.
> But his car jolted him from 25 mph to 15 mph before he could intervene.
> “Suddenly the car kind of locked, but it immediately released because the plastic bag moved away. . . . The car just completely took precaution,” he said. “Automatically, it braked.”






			https://wapo.st/3oknamM
		

(paywall removed)


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## Eric

I don't know, the car was designed in California, by a Californian where everyone does California stops... it all makes sense to me.


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## quagmire

SuperMatt said:


> Many drivers have reported “phantom braking” on Teslas recently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://wapo.st/3oknamM
> 
> 
> (paywall removed)




Was Luis using cruise control or autopilot on a city street? Or was this a false emergency braking? 

I am not going to say Tesla Vision doesn't need improvement, but this goes back to an earlier discussion where drivers are using these systems at inappropriate times. The common theme I see this complaint is when people try to use these systems on local roads when they are meant for highways. Now where Tesla Vision needs improvement is undivided highways because it is the user using the systems appropriately, but since the highway is undivided, the system freaks out at oncoming vehicles( trucks in particular). Divided highways it has little problems in my experience.


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## SuperMatt

quagmire said:


> Was Luis using cruise control or autopilot on a city street? Or was this a false emergency braking?
> 
> I am not going to say Tesla Vision doesn't need improvement, but this goes back to an earlier discussion where drivers are using these systems at inappropriate times. The common theme I see this complaint is when people try to use these systems on local roads when they are meant for highways. Now where Tesla Vision needs improvement is undivided highways because it is the user using the systems appropriately, but since the highway is undivided, the system freaks out at oncoming vehicles( trucks in particular). Divided highways it has little problems in my experience.



That was just one story:



> Owner reports of phantom braking to NHTSA rose to 107 complaints in the past three months, compared with only 34 in the preceding 22 months.




While not huge in absolute numbers, that’s a massive increase, and suggests there is something going on. And in some cases, it happened while the auto-driving was off.



> Some drivers recalled instances of phantom braking even when they were not using Autopilot. Other owners said in complaints to NHTSA that they were shaken by the incidents and feared being rear-ended.




 As for people using the system at inappropriate times, let’s not forget it was marketed as “autopilot” by Tesla.


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## Herdfan

theSeb said:


> I guess it depends on what you read and where... but let's look at this forum and the ars comments section... the first few posts of every Arstechnica article factually stating that Tesla is doing a recall go roughly like this:




I initially asked the recall question because I didn't know if it could be done via update or not.

I will say that recalls with Tesla are a different animal than with regular cars.  With most cars, a recall notice requires a customer to do something, Tesla does not.  I can ignore recall notices if I choose, Tesla owners probably can't.


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## User.168

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## Eric

quagmire said:


> Was Luis using cruise control or autopilot on a city street? Or was this a false emergency braking?
> 
> I am not going to say Tesla Vision doesn't need improvement, but this goes back to an earlier discussion where drivers are using these systems at inappropriate times. The common theme I see this complaint is when people try to use these systems on local roads when they are meant for highways. Now where Tesla Vision needs improvement is undivided highways because it is the user using the systems appropriately, but since the highway is undivided, the system freaks out at oncoming vehicles( trucks in particular). Divided highways it has little problems in my experience.



It's an ongoing issue, it would be nice if you could simply use dumb cruise control but they won't allow that.

Here's an example someone just posted to Reddit where the phantom breaking is constant, jarring for both the driver and the oncoming traffic as they see you slowing down for no reason. Tesla needs to address it, even just standard TACC should work in basic situations like this.


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## quagmire

SuperMatt said:


> That was just one story:
> 
> 
> 
> While not huge in absolute numbers, that’s a massive increase, and suggests there is something going on. And in some cases, it happened while the auto-driving was off.
> 
> 
> 
> As for people using the system at inappropriate times, let’s not forget it was marketed as “autopilot” by Tesla.




I know, hence why I asked was it autopilot or cruise control or was it a false emergency braking activation. Phantom Braking and False emergency braking is two different events. All it takes for phantom braking to occur is to have cruise control on. People who have complained about phantom braking used cruise control on local 30 MPH limit streets. Cruise control was never meant to be used on local roads. Always for highways. 

I am not trying to sound defensive and be defending Tesla cause you're right "autopilot" and "full self driving" are very deceptive terms. So Tesla shares some blame for any misuse of the systems. But it still annoys me when people want to take an L2 system and try to use it like it is L4 or L5. You hate driving I get it, but use the systems appropriately. 

As I originally stated, there is definitely a problem with Tesla Vision when it comes to undivided highways.


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## quagmire

Eric said:


> It's an ongoing issue, it would be nice if you could simply use dumb cruise control but they won't allow that.
> 
> Here's an example someone just posted to Reddit where the phantom breaking is constant, jarring for both the driver and the oncoming traffic as they see you slowing down for no reason. Tesla needs to address it, even just standard TACC should work in basic situations like this.




In that scenario I agree it should work. I am not trying to deny there is an issue. But in Luis's case and other people I see on reddit, it just annoys me when I see misuse of a cars feature that is not designed or intended to be used the way they are using it. 

In my reply to Matt, Tesla still shares the blame in this because how they market the features as autopilot or FSD. But even those who are better informed on the systems beyond marketing BS names still try to defend using AP or TACC in situations they were not designed for.


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## User.168

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## quagmire

theSeb said:


> I have seen Tesla owners reporting phantom braking on highways. To be fair, I have seen owners of other brands reporting the same issue.
> 
> Here is the Tesla story that I read a few months ago
> 
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> 
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> Tesla recalls 11,706 vehicles over Full Self-Driving Beta software bug
> 
> 
> The new software bug caused phantom emergency braking events.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arstechnica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was a very specific issue though and I don't think it's the normal phantom braking that people complain about.




I have experienced it as well though very infrequent since my use case have been on divided highways. While the issue really presents itself on undivided highways.  I am not denying there is an issue. I know my posts may be coming across as Tesla Fanboy/defending Tesla, but it isn't meant to be. I guess it bugs me more with people inappropriately using a system. It's a giant pet peeve. 

I see way too much reliance on companies spoon feeding consumers and if they don't spoon feed the consumer, the consumer is completely ignorant and doesn't bother to do any research of their own. Way too many people on reddit who took delivery of their Model 3 Performance are now going, " Tesla unsafe in the snow!" because they had no idea the car came with summer tires. The information is there on Tesla's website. But since the delivery associate didn't spoon feed them, they didn't bother to learn anything about their car.


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## User.168

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## SuperMatt

quagmire said:


> But it still annoys me when people want to take an L2 system and try to use it like it is L4 or L5.



I don’t even know what this means. One shouldn’t be expecting every Tesla driver to be a well-informed enthusiast. Trust me, they aren’t. They see “autopilot” and hit the button. That’s it, and the manufacturer is responsible for deceptive advertising. I’m surprised that any self-driving stuff is legal at all, especially “beta” versions that you can download. Any such system should be subject to government agency (or a designated industry standards body of some kind) testing and approval before finding its way into any vehicle.

When designing things like this, manufacturers should go for a drive in the DC area (or any major metro area) and see just how idiotically drivers behave. You have to dumb down any system for that level of person or those idiot drivers will be even more likely to kill somebody.


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## quagmire

SuperMatt said:


> I don’t even know what this means. One shouldn’t be expecting every Tesla driver to be a well-informed enthusiast. Trust me, they aren’t. They see “autopilot” and hit the button. That’s it, and the manufacturer is responsible for deceptive advertising. I’m surprised that any self-driving stuff is legal at all, especially “beta” versions that you can download. Any such system should be subject to government agency (or a designated industry standards body of some kind) testing and approval before finding its way into any vehicle.
> 
> When designing things like this, manufacturers should go for a drive in the DC area (or any major metro area) and see just how idiotically drivers behave. You have to dumb down any system for that level of person or those idiot drivers will be even more likely to kill somebody.









Autopilot/FSD is Level 2 and only meant for highways. People want to treat these systems as a level 4 or 5. 

I believe it is shared responsibility. Manufactures shouldn't be deceiving and people should actually learn about their vehicles. Have some self-responsibility. If people are going to be ignorant on how to drive their cars, their licenses should be ripped up. Companies shouldn't have to spoon feed people. Have the information available, yes but not spoon fed.


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## SuperMatt

quagmire said:


> Autopilot/FSD is Level 2 and only meant for highways. People want to treat these systems as a level 4 or 5.
> 
> I believe it is shared responsibility. Manufactures shouldn't be deceiving and people should actually learn about their vehicles. Have some self-responsibility. If people are going to be ignorant on how to drive their cars, their licenses should be ripped up. Companies shouldn't have to spoon feed people. Have the information available, yes but not spoon fed.



Thanks for the chart. I think there are terrible drivers out there, but let’s be realistic; they won’t lose their licenses.

The person who realizes 100 feet from their exit that they are in the left lane and need to cross 4 lanes to get there is the same person who says “ooh autopilot!” … pushes the button, and commences to scrolling through videos on TikTok. You cannot get rid of such people, so when it comes to high-speed vehicles, you need to design for the lowest common denominator. Also, the levels of self-driving are not covered at driving school or on the drivers’ license test. Perhaps a test should be necessary for anybody buying a car with such features. It is not currently.


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## Herdfan

theSeb said:


> Like I said, my two Mercs had their recall fixes applied in the same way, via an OTA that was impossible to ignore. Many manufacturers are moving to OTA.




And yet I can't get my Ford Sync to update no matter what I do.


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## Eric

quagmire said:


> I have experienced it as well though very infrequent since my use case have been on divided highways. While the issue really presents itself on undivided highways.  I am not denying there is an issue. I know my posts may be coming across as Tesla Fanboy/defending Tesla, but it isn't meant to be. I guess it bugs me more with people inappropriately using a system. It's a giant pet peeve.
> 
> I see way too much reliance on companies spoon feeding consumers and if they don't spoon feed the consumer, the consumer is completely ignorant and doesn't bother to do any research of their own. Way too many people on reddit who took delivery of their Model 3 Performance are now going, " Tesla unsafe in the snow!" because they had no idea the car came with summer tires. The information is there on Tesla's website. But since the delivery associate didn't spoon feed them, they didn't bother to learn anything about their car.



I think this is fair but I'll just say that if they simply let us have an option for standard CC without all the frills this could all be avoided. Just set to 55 and disable by break or control, something we've been able to do in standard cars for decades.


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## User.168

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## Herdfan

theSeb said:


> I assume you have gone through this?
> 
> 
> 
> https://help.ford.com/update-sync/




Wow.  Thanks.  Did not know you could do it via Flash Drive.  Tried Wifi.  I even have a repeater in the garage so I have good coverage in the driveway and it still wouldn't update.  Was just going to wait until it was due for service and have the dealer do it.  But forgot to tell them last month.

Will be doing it via Flash drive today.


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## Ulenspiegel

Herdfan said:


> Wow.  Thanks.  Did not know you could do it via Flash Drive.  Tried Wifi.  I even have a repeater in the garage so I have good coverage in the driveway and it still wouldn't update.  Was just going to wait until it was due for service and have the dealer do it.  But forgot to tell them last month.
> 
> Will be doing it via Flash drive today.



Herd,

It explains the process.
Should be easy.
Good luck, mate.


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## diamond.g

SuperMatt said:


> I don’t even know what this means. One shouldn’t be expecting every Tesla driver to be a well-informed enthusiast. Trust me, they aren’t. They see “autopilot” and hit the button. That’s it, and the manufacturer is responsible for deceptive advertising. I’m surprised that any self-driving stuff is legal at all, especially “beta” versions that you can download. Any such system should be subject to government agency (or a designated industry standards body of some kind) testing and approval before finding its way into any vehicle.
> 
> When designing things like this, manufacturers should go for a drive in the DC area (or any major metro area) and see just how idiotically drivers behave. You have to dumb down any system for that level of person or those idiot drivers will be even more likely to kill somebody.



I 100% wish that NHTSA would make Tesla limit the system to the operation domains they mention in their owners manual (and in the long warning they make you read before you turn on AP for the first time). I also am 100% sure existing owners would pitch a fit.

None of what we have so far really is self driving, as the easiest way to make that distinction is when the auto manufacturer takes responsibility for the mistakes the system makes. Tesla sure doesn’t (as seen by the lawsuits on the death of some folk so far) And because of that you really shouldn’t trust that AP/EAP/FSD won‘t try to kill you at its earliest convenience. And I say this as some one in “FSD Beta” (OMG why can’t it be called Navigate on Autopilot City Streets).


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