# Lane Keeping Accuracy



## Eric

It sounds like this is pretty different depending on car manufacturer, I know in my BMW it's like bumper bowling and you can't take your hands off the wheel for more than 10 seconds or so but in slower traffic it keys in on the car in front of you and works flawlessly. Still, at freeway speeds I never take my hands off the wheel, it often struggles to read the lines, even when they seem visually obvious.


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## quagmire

Autopilot seems to do fairly well. I initially thought it was being too biased towards the left part of a lane, but looking at the cameras revealed how biased to the right side of the lane I am as it revealed to be pretty darn down the center of the lane. 

It does seem to get confused when an entrance/exit lane pops up when in the right lane and can't determine where the lane is until the dotted lines show up.


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## rdrr

quagmire said:


> Autopilot seems to do fairly well. I initially thought it was being too biased towards the left part of a lane, but looking at the cameras revealed how biased to the right side of the lane I am as it revealed to be pretty darn down the center of the lane.
> 
> It does seem to get confused when an entrance/exit lane pops up when in the right lane and can't determine where the lane is until the dotted lines show up.




How does auto pilot do when handling an object in the road?  I don't think even the advanced ones could tell the difference between an empty bag that you can just run over, and a rock that you need to swerve to avoid if there isn't anyone on your sides.


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## quagmire

rdrr said:


> How does auto pilot do when handling an object in the road?  I don't think even the advanced ones could tell the difference between an empty bag that you can just run over, and a rock that you need to swerve to avoid if there isn't anyone on your sides.




Haven't run into that situation myself. 

But seems inconsistent from videos. Sometimes autopilot recognizes it needs to attempt to do something vs needing human intervention due to no reaction.


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## Herdfan

Eric said:


> It sounds like this is pretty different depending on car manufacturer, I know in my BMW it's like bumper bowling and you can't take your hands off the wheel for more than 10 seconds or so but in slower traffic it keys in on the car in front of you and works flawlessly. Still, at freeway speeds I never take my hands off the wheel, it often struggles to read the lines, even when they seem visually obvious.




Do you have what we call "tar snakes" out there?  It is where they fix cracks with a tar strip about 4-6" wide.  If you are driving into the sun, they can easily look like lane lines.  Just wondering if they confuse the cars as well.


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## Ulenspiegel

I have it in my car, but never use it. I am old fashioned in this respect.


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## Edd

We have lane keep assist in both cars. I like some of the new car tech but I don’t care for Subaru and Toyota’s offerings for LKA. I hear Hyundai does it well.


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## DT

quagmire said:


> Autopilot seems to do fairly well. I initially thought it was being too biased towards the left part of a lane, but looking at the cameras revealed how biased to the right side of the lane I am as it revealed to be pretty darn down the center of the lane.




Same.  I tend to hug a little tighter to the right, I wish you could dial in some "center offset".  It always startles me a little when I engage it, and it jukes to the left immediately. 

One thing I really love on the Model 3, is the ACC or Autopilot control, it's so immediate and precise to engage and control the speed, I engage ACC all the time, since it's just a quick flip down on the right stalk.  

I just recently learned for Autopilot you can tap the speed limits signs on the display to set the speed.


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## Joe

My Lexus had some kind of lane departure feature or lane keeping feature. I tried it once but I didn't trust it or use it very often.


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## AG_PhamD

Well let’s be clear, there’s two different types of systems. One’s that keep you from falling out of a lane and one’s that keep you centered in the lane. Perhaps there is also a third, one that does the latter and does a very poor job at it.

Probably the best systems I’ve personally used is Tesla. Volvo, and Mercedes also have very good systems. I have yet to try Land Rover’s on my fathers- I feel like I have high expectations for such a premium quality car but JLR often falls short with its drivers features.

I haven’t been overly impressed with Toyota. I used GM’s standard land keeping (not centering) and it was atrocious. Mazda was only slightly better.

I’d really like to try Cadillac’s SuperCruise (which uses LiDAR mapped roads and compares with onboard cameras).  While it doesn’t have the extensive flexibility of Tesla’s system, from what I’ve heard it’s phenomenal for the roads it does work on, which is most major highways. Most reviewers say it’s at least as good if not better than Tesla.

I’ve also heard great things about Genesis and Hyundai driver assist systems. I am really impressed with what Genesis is putting out (aside from their awful steering wheels). Unreleased to autonomous driving, their feature of having the turn signal camera appear in the instrument cluster replacing the speedometer or tachometer gauge is brilliant. Every car should have that.

Turn signal cameras should be the next big safety requirement in cars. Blind spot assist is great, but nothing beats having a camera. And placing the camera in a logical and I intuitive place like Genesis/Hyundai does is a must. I’ve been in Hondas where the turn signal cameras are displayed in the center infotainment screen, but that _really_ takes your eyes off the road.


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## Alli

I have both on my Kia. The lane assist drives me nuts. I feel like I’m always fighting it. Auto, OTOH, is awesome. It’s great for long interstate driving when you need a drink, a handful of candy, or to blow your nose. The car doesn’t like you to keep your hands off the wheel for too long and will [loudly] advise you to put your hands back on the wheel when it deems you’ve had enough of a break.


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## DT

Tesla Christmas release, 44.25 adding ... turn signal blind spot cameras 

The latest update has AP working exceptionally well, I'm going to test it through here


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## Joe

Alli said:


> I have both on my Kia. The lane assist drives me nuts. I feel like I’m always fighting it. Auto, OTOH, is awesome. It’s great for long interstate driving when you need a drink, a handful of candy, or to blow your nose. The car doesn’t like you to keep your hands off the wheel for too long and will [loudly] advise you to put your hands back on the wheel when it deems you’ve had enough of a break.




I cut off the lane assist on my Tacoma. It's annoying as hell.


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## rdrr

JagRunner said:


> I cut off the lane assist on my Tacoma. It's annoying as hell.



My Hyundai is affectionally called the "Nag Car" by my kids.   LKA is constantly beeping when I drive...   Ok! I admit it that I don't use my blinka that much when I lane change.  Call me a Masshole...


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## Roller

My BMW has an assisted driving feature that works up to about 40 MPH. The car stops, starts, and stays in its lane without driver input. It's meant for rush hour, stop-and-go driving, and it's quite effective. It's taken me time to trust it, though. The lane departure system is also quite good, and it's prevented me from drifting into an adjacent lane a few times.


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## Joe

rdrr said:


> My Hyundai is affectionally called the "Nag Car" by my kids.   LKA is constantly beeping when I drive...   Ok! I admit it that I don't use my blinka that much when I lane change.  Call me a Masshole...




That's why I cut it off. The constant beeping.


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## rdrr

JagRunner said:


> That's why I cut it off. The constant beeping.




Yes!  Sometimes I feel like the character in the tell tale heart, who just wants the beating the heart to stop and confess to my crimes of lane changes without a signal.   Just make the beeping stop...


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## Yoused

rdrr said:


> the "Nag Car"



Man, I despise the Dunning-Krueger automobile that assumes it is so much smarter than you. I taught my car to leave the door locks alone because that auto-lock feature just pissed me off. The, recently, I was driving an Escape and I put it in neutral and shut the engine off, at which point it started screaming at me "_*PUT IT IN PARK! PUT IT IN PARK! PUT IT IN PARK!*_" I mean, come on.


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## User.45

DT said:


> Same.  I tend to hug a little tighter to the right, I wish you could dial in some "center offset".  It always startles me a little when I engage it, and it jukes to the left immediately.
> 
> One thing I really love on the Model 3, is the ACC or Autopilot control, it's so immediate and precise to engage and control the speed, I engage ACC all the time, since it's just a quick flip down on the right stalk.
> 
> I just recently learned for Autopilot you can tap the speed limits signs on the display to set the speed.





quagmire said:


> Autopilot seems to do fairly well. I initially thought it was being too biased towards the left part of a lane, but looking at the cameras revealed how biased to the right side of the lane I am as it revealed to be pretty darn down the center of the lane.
> 
> It does seem to get confused when an entrance/exit lane pops up when in the right lane and can't determine where the lane is until the dotted lines show up.



So does AP adjust now for adjacent cars? It REALLY got me nervous driving next to trucks with my kids in the back and AP was coming within <2 feet to the trucks when there is plenty of space on the other end of my lane. 

Also, AP kept me in the blind spot of adjacent cars all the time, and I've had a near-collision because of this. Is this issue fixed?


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## quagmire

P_X said:


> So does AP adjust now for adjacent cars? It REALLY got me nervous driving next to trucks with my kids in the back and AP was coming within <2 feet to the trucks when there is plenty of space on the other end of my lane.
> 
> Also, AP kept me in the blind spot of adjacent cars all the time, and I've had a near-collision because of this. Is this issue fixed?




I haven't experienced AP adjusting based on traffic in the other lane hugging one side of their lane. Now AP should react if the car invades your lane, but obviously still be ready to take over if it doesn't.  

AP doesn't care about blind spot avoidance of other vehicles. All it cares is the speed you set, whether it can maintain that speed plus maintain the follow distance of any vehicles ahead of you in your lane that you set( it will prioritize follow distance than speed), etc. So if you set 65 MPH and can maintain 65 MPH due to no one ahead of you in your lane, if it happens to put you in someones blind spot in the lanes next you, it happens to put you in their blind spot. Again if that vehicle invades your lane, it should react by slowing and/or turning away from the vehicle. But I don't think it is capable to determine if your present position puts you in a vehicles blind spot and avoid it. 

Not sure if any system is capable of that yet, but who knows. This area is not something that interests me too much when it comes to cars.


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## User.45

quagmire said:


> I haven't experienced AP adjusting based on traffic in the other lane hugging one side of their lane. Now AP should react if the car invades your lane, but obviously still be ready to take over if it doesn't.
> 
> AP doesn't care about blind spot avoidance of other vehicles. All it cares is the speed you set, whether it can maintain that speed plus maintain the follow distance of any vehicles ahead of you in your lane that you set( it will prioritize follow distance than speed), etc. So if you set 65 MPH and can maintain 65 MPH due to no one ahead of you in your lane, if it happens to put you in someones blind spot in the lanes next you, it happens to put you in their blind spot. Again if that vehicle invades your lane, it should react by slowing and/or turning away from the vehicle. But I don't think it is capable to determine if your present position puts you in a vehicles blind spot and avoid it.
> 
> Not sure if any system is capable of that yet, but who knows. This area is not something that interests me too much when it comes to cars.



I don't expect the car to do full defensive driving, but to call something AP and not regular lane keep assist I'd expect the car to process the content of the adjacent lane. AP is really overhyped.


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## quagmire

P_X said:


> I don't expect the car to do full defensive driving, but to call something AP and not regular lane keep assist I'd expect the car to process the content of the adjacent lane. AP is really overhyped.




Yeah Tesla gives features really cool catchy names and THEN starts to try to walk things back with caveats of what the system is capable of. Autopilot is basically just an auto steer/land keeping assist combined with adaptive cruise control. Yet because it has the name autopilot, we still have idiots sleeping while on AP or sitting in the backseat...... 

Same story with full self driving. It's not a Level 5 system. Now if you happen to keep the Tesla for 10 years and Level 5 occurs in that frame, you will gain Level 5 at that time since you bought it. Now if you sell the Tesla and buy a new one, that will be $10,000 again or more if Tesla raises the price in the mean time....


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## User.45

quagmire said:


> Yeah Tesla gives features really cool catchy names and THEN starts to try to walk things back with caveats of what the system is capable of. Autopilot is basically just an auto steer/land keeping assist combined with adaptive cruise control. Yet because it has the name autopilot, we still have idiots sleeping while on AP or sitting in the backseat......
> 
> Same story with full self driving. It's not a Level 5 system. Now if you happen to keep the Tesla for 10 years and Level 5 occurs in that frame, you will gain Level 5 at that time since you bought it. Now if you sell the Tesla and buy a new one, that will be $10,000 again or more if Tesla raises the price in the mean time....



It's a total scam, yeah. These things ruin an otherwise really fun car.


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## quagmire

P_X said:


> It's a total scam, yeah. These things ruin an otherwise really fun car.




FSD, yeah it’s fairly close to a scam. Now if they make it transferable, then I would be less pissy over it( hey spending $10,000 is one way to keep people in the ecosystem). Only reason I say its not a total scam yet is because if you do keep the car, you will get Level 5 one day and justifies the name. How likely one will have the car for how long it takes to get to level 5, who knows.

I’m not too worked up over the naming of autopilot. Not worth to get too worked up about it or ruin the experience with the car.


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## User.45

quagmire said:


> FSD, yeah it’s fairly close to a scam. Now if they make it transferable, then I would be less pissy over it( hey spending $10,000 is one way to keep people in the ecosystem). Only reason I say its not a total scam yet is because if you do keep the car, you will get Level 5 one day and justifies the name. How likely one will have the car for how long it takes to get to level 5, who knows.






quagmire said:


> I’m not too worked up over the naming of autopilot. Not worth to get too worked up about it or ruin the experience with the car.



THe issue is the constellation of its name, price and promise. Level 5 has been coming for 7+ years now. I suspect it will take more time to actually be accomplished than the median lifetime of these cars. This is why the way it is "implemented" at the moment is a scam. I agree, it could be quickly mitigated by grandfathering people's new cars into it, but first Level 5 needs to be achieved. It's Level 2+ right now, so I definitely wouldn't pay for it nor hold my breath.


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## AG_PhamD

DT said:


> Tesla Christmas release, 44.25 adding ... turn signal blind spot cameras
> 
> The latest update has AP working exceptionally well, I'm going to test it through here
> 
> View attachment 10488




That’s great. It’s kind of surprising Tesla doesn’t include features like this when the hardware exists and presumably just some software tweaks would enable such functions. I suppose they have to create the a sense of consistent development rather than release everything on day one. Maybe one day they will offer CarPlay/AndroidAuto. 

I would hope on the S and X the camera views are displayed in the instrument cluster screen. Looking right to center screen isn’t bad for right hand turns, but there is something awkward about looking to the right to the center screen for left hand turns.


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## User.45

DT said:


> Tesla Christmas release, 44.25 adding ... turn signal blind spot cameras
> 
> The latest update has AP working exceptionally well, I'm going to test it through here
> 
> View attachment 10488



Nice! It might be just me not used to sedans anymore but the Rt blindspot of M3 felt huge and because of the high window, turning my head felt pointless.


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## quagmire

P_X said:


> THe issue is the constellation of its name, price and promise. Level 5 has been coming for 7+ years now. I suspect it will take more time to actually be accomplished than the median lifetime of these cars. This is why the way it is "implemented" at the moment is a scam. I agree, it could be quickly mitigated by grandfathering people's new cars into it, but first Level 5 needs to be achieved. It's Level 2+ right now, so I definitely wouldn't pay for it nor hold my breath.




No doubt I agree.

But a huge way to mitigate it would be to grandfather the people who spent the money for FSD on new Tesla purchases until Level 5 is achieved and then I guess could see Tesla then say no more grandfathering at that point. Now you would have to determine what are the chances you keep on buying Tesla's or maybe the competition grabs your eye to risk that $10,000. But like Apple, that could keep you in Tesla's ecosystem. So it is something Tesla should do, IMHO. 

At current situation, it is very easy decision to not shell out the $10,000 for FSD. The chances of keeping the car until FSD reaches Level 5 is low. I don't see Level 5 happening until the 2030's at minimum. Now if Tesla would offer EAP again( Enhanced Autopilot) with some of the features that I do find desirable( auto lane change, basic summon, auto park) I might be tempted to pick up that depending on the price. But as of now, my money is aimed at acceleration boost.


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## User.45

quagmire said:


> But as of now, my money is aimed at acceleration boost.


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## quagmire

P_X said:


>




Yep. It is a very noticeable boost in acceleration. I picked it up initially back in July and tested it out for a day or so and then asked for a refund. Absolutely worth it. Just had vacation coming up so wanted that money to be used for that instead. I will probably pick it up again probably at the one year mark of ownership( once you buy it a second time, fully committed, no refunds anymore).


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## DT

P_X said:


> So does AP adjust now for adjacent cars? It REALLY got me nervous driving next to trucks with my kids in the back and AP was coming within <2 feet to the trucks when there is plenty of space on the other end of my lane.




You know, it's funny, while I'm into tech personally, work with it professionally, I'm kind of ol' school when it comes to driving.  Not the vehicle so much - sure, there was a time when you'd "Pry my manual transmission car from my cold dead hands ...", which has obviously changed - but the act of operating the vehicle, I like to mostly be in full control.

So I guess that's a preface to me saying:  I haven't tested AP very thoroughly, as I don't use it frequently or for any length of time (usually just a quick use to sort out sunglasses or a drink), and only when there's a lot of buffer around me   I'm too much of a driver 

My comment was based on seeing posts like this on various Tesla boards, this one from Dec of this year (so a recent experience, maybe newer software?)



> I don’t know if others have noticed this, but I find that Autopilot now moves the car away from trucks and large vehicles while staying in the lane, recentering once I pass the truck. That is nice.




Maybe all these people are using [a beta] FSD (and using the term, Autopilot)?  And it does that?  Maybe current AP does this and I need to drive down I-95 and test it?



P_X said:


> These things ruin an otherwise really fun car.




Nah.  I'm not bothered at all because that was a non-priority for my purchase vs. charging network, performance and other non-driving tech like app control, scheduling, etc.  And it just keeps getting better.

Plus ... farts.


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## DT

AG_PhamD said:


> That’s great. It’s kind of surprising Tesla doesn’t include features like this when the hardware exists and presumably just some software tweaks would enable such functions. I suppose they have to create the a sense of consistent development rather than release everything on day one. Maybe one day they will offer CarPlay/AndroidAuto.




The continuous improvements have been really cool, sure, a few things should've been there from day one, but at least the way the vehicle is designed, it allows for a really impressive amount of improvements just via software:  performance, charging speed, all sort of media/entertainment system updates, even improvements to systems you wouldn't think of as "updatable" like the HVAC/climate control, the heated seats, etc., all work better with a software update.

I know I'm mostly pretty enthusiastic about the car (I'll start an AMA if you'd like ), but the lack of CarPlay is a bummer especially since it's in no way a technical issue.

Really, Tesla wouldn't even have to implement a full CP interface, they could simply add Apple Music/iTunes as another music service - not unlike how some TVs now allow access to your iTunes library without the full Apple TV experience.  For now I use BT to stream Apple Music, and occasionally use a USB drive loaded up with music, and I don't use Spotify or Tidal.

I haven't - but I should - tried using the web based Apple Music through the car's web browser.  I did try soundcloud, sounded pretty solid, and it seems like it stays active in the background, though I don't recall if the browser stays active/available when the car is actually moving (I rarely use it, I the last time I did was just to run SpeedTest to check the connection speed).


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## AG_PhamD

DT said:


> The continuous improvements have been really cool, sure, a few things should've been there from day one, but at least the way the vehicle is designed, it allows for a really impressive amount of improvements just via software:  performance, charging speed, all sort of media/entertainment system updates, even improvements to systems you wouldn't think of as "updatable" like the HVAC/climate control, the heated seats, etc., all work better with a software update.
> 
> I know I'm mostly pretty enthusiastic about the car (I'll start an AMA if you'd like ), but the lack of CarPlay is a bummer especially since it's in no way a technical issue.
> 
> Really, Tesla wouldn't even have to implement a full CP interface, they could simply add Apple Music/iTunes as another music service - not unlike how some TVs now allow access to your iTunes library without the full Apple TV experience.  For now I use BT to stream Apple Music, and occasionally use a USB drive loaded up with music, and I don't use Spotify or Tidal.
> 
> I haven't - but I should - tried using the web based Apple Music through the car's web browser.  I did try soundcloud, sounded pretty solid, and it seems like it stays active in the background, though I don't recall if the browser stays active/available when the car is actually moving (I rarely use it, I the last time I did was just to run SpeedTest to check the connection speed).




You know, I take it back. I drove my buddy’s HRV today… the lane keep was like driving down the street like a bowling ball bouncing off the gutter guards. 

I don’t remember the Civic behaving like this.  As I recall, the Civic ACC also operated above 20mph and allowed slow to a full stop. Maybe this HRV had an older generation system (despite I thin behind a newer model year)? Or there was siome sort of software change.

It is pretty awesome how Tesla builds their cars like a computer the base hardware and with software that can easily be updated over time to unlock new features. More companies though get into this, although I’m sure many would love to charge for such updates. Mercedes has taken the idea  way too far with subscription based features in the EQS- like unlocking adjustable air suspension function functionality- that’s just ridiculous. If the hardware is there, especially for as something as complex and costly as air suspension, the customer has already paid for it. Charging a subscription, in this case $200-300 a year IIRC, is not something I can get behind. I’ll find a similar car that gives me what I pay for.

It baffles me that they have not integrated CarPlay or AndroidAuto… I suppose part of it might have to do with the simplicity of navigation mapping. Or at least offer Apple Music and direct map integration (in terms of autopilot) with Google Maps or Waze. Or how about Waze automatically slowing the car for police and other alerts? Now I’m dreaming I suppose.

There’s a number of car manufacturers that held out adding CP/AA for sometime, and not for a lack of developing their own systems in the meantime. Toyota-Lexus probably being the most notable, thinking they could do it better… laughable in retrospect how dated some of their infotainment systems were and cars like the GX460 just getting AA/CP in the last year or two.


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## quagmire

AG_PhamD said:


> It is pretty awesome how Tesla builds their cars like a computer the base hardware and with software that can easily be updated over time to unlock new features. More companies though get into this, although I’m sure many would love to charge for such updates. Mercedes has taken the idea  way too far with subscription based features in the EQS- like unlocking adjustable air suspension function functionality- that’s just ridiculous. If the hardware is there, especially for as something as complex and costly as air suspension, the customer has already paid for it. Charging a subscription, in this case $200-300 a year IIRC, is not something I can get behind. I’ll find a similar car that gives me what I pay for.




Tesla sort of does that or at least did..... 

The Model 3 SR+ had the hardware for the rear heated seats, but was software disabled. Pay $300 and it enabled them. Granted once that $300 was spent, that was it, no further payments needed. Now it is included on the Model 3( no more SR+ name) along with a heated steering wheel. I believe it is similar case with the speakers. The Model 3 has the 13 speakers, etc as the Long Range, but some of the speakers are not activated. Though no paid upgrade to enable them. Could be wrong on the speakers though. 

Though Mercedes implementation of it is absolutely ridiculous and a subscription at that. It's like BMW charging for Carplay. The Germans are ridiculous sometimes.


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## AG_PhamD

quagmire said:


> Tesla sort of does that or at least did.....
> 
> The Model 3 SR+ had the hardware for the rear heated seats, but was software disabled. Pay $300 and it enabled them. Granted once that $300 was spent, that was it, no further payments needed. Now it is included on the Model 3( no more SR+ name) along with a heated steering wheel. I believe it is similar case with the speakers. The Model 3 has the 13 speakers, etc as the Long Range, but some of the speakers are not activated. Though no paid upgrade to enable them. Could be wrong on the speakers though.
> 
> Though Mercedes implementation of it is absolutely ridiculous and a subscription at that. It's like BMW charging for Carplay. The Germans are ridiculous sometimes.




The software unlocked heated seats is a pretty common theme these days. In fact, even in the 90’s there were cars with heated seats where the “option” was really just the dealer installing the switches. All the cars had the heating filament in the seats to begin with.

Navigation is another common dealer software unlocked option these days.

But as far as I’m aware neither of these have ever been a *subscription*, meaning monthly/yearly payments.

Having major features like adjustable air suspension or dynamic suspension control unlocked is just silly, and having it be a subscription is absurd. What happens when the car is 15 years old and the manufacturer no longer supports the subscription system?! And who is going to want to pay for such features when the car is 10 years old and presumably lost 90%+ of its value?


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## Herdfan

Do any of you experience the LKA of having issues at one certain spot regardless of where you are in the lane.

There is a bridge over the Ohio River linking Point Pleasant (think Mothman), WV and Gallipolis, OH.  For some reason the pattern on the bridge always activates it and the drowsy alert sensor.  Granted this is 10-year old tech in that car but just wondering if any of the newer ones have similar issues.


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