# Sexuality Has Gotten Complicated



## Huntn

…or more complex and we are becoming more aware.  First it was LGB and has gradually expanded to LGBTQIA+

*Added references:*








						What Does LGBTQIA+ Stand For? Full Abbreviation And Other Terms Explained
					

What does LGBTQIA+ stand for? Find out the LGBTQIA+ meaning including lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and intersexual.




					abbreviations.yourdictionary.com
				









						Cisgender - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



_The prefix cis- is not an acronym or abbreviation of another word; it is derived from Latin meaning on this side of, and the English word cissexual was coined in the 1990s, based on the slightly earlier German word zissexuell._

Gender Identity








						The Origin of Gender Identity
					

The Origin of Gender Identity




					www.huffpost.com
				








						Gender identity - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




My question is how closely related to Lesbian and Gay is being a Transgender person? My impression is that in gay and lesbian relationships it is not unusual to see a more masculine with a more feminine personality. Yet my impression is that they are distinctly different:

such as gay: _I am a guy who likes guys_
compared to a transgender female: _I am biologically male, but identify as a female, and am romantically attracted to males._









						Homosexuality and transgender
					

Homosexuality and transgender are two separate concepts. Homosexuality usually refers to romantic/sexual attraction or behaviour between people of the same sex, while transgender is a matter of gender identity, meaning that a person identifies as a different gender than the one they were...




					lgbt.wikia.org
				



_*Homosexuality* and *transgender* are two separate concepts. Homosexuality usually refers to romantic/sexual attraction or behaviour between people of the same sex, while transgender is a matter of gender identity, meaning that a person identifies as a different gender than the one they were assigned (usually) at birth. It can also refer to an individual who identifies as neither a man nor a woman. Clear-cut distinctions between homosexuality and transgender are often impossible to make in different cultures and across time, especially where third gender social categories or gender-structured homosexuality exist._

I would guess that before transgender gained public awareness and maybe still today you might find transgender people identifying with  the LG community. Of interest is the historical relationship at least according to the above link of some level of hostility between the LG community and transgender people:

_Also, during the 1970s and 1980s, there was a considerable backlash in the gay and lesbian community towards transgender people [1], which culminated in the publication of "The Transsexual Empire" by Janice Raymond [2], a book that claimed feminine androphilic transwomen were "tools of patriarchy for upholding stereotypes of women" and lesbian (gynephilic) transwomen were "tools of patriarchy, fifth columnists infiltrating women's space and raping women's' bodies". It dismissed transmen (presumably heterosexual gynephilic ones) as "deluded and misguided lesbians, afraid of the label 'homosexual'". No distinction is made for describing homosexual androphilic transmen._

In the celebrity corner, I‘m currently playing a game called *Beyond:Two Souls* that features Williem Defoe and Ellen Elliot Page which made me make a double take, because I am very familiar with this actress  from *Inception, X-Men: Days of Future Past*, and *Umbrella Academy*. I say good for him. 












						Elliot Page Is Ready for This Moment
					

"I'm fully who I am."




					time.com


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Sound the trumpets for our "all cis people are ignorant and/or evil!" resident member.


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## User.191

Huntn said:


> …or more complex and we are becoming more aware.  First it was LGB and has gradually expanded to LGBTQIA+
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What Does LGBTQIA+ Stand For? Full Abbreviation And Other Terms Explained
> 
> 
> What does LGBTQIA+ stand for? Find out the LGBTQIA+ meaning including lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and intersexual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abbreviations.yourdictionary.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My question is how closely related to Lesbian and Gay is being a Transgender person? My impression is that in gay and lesbian relationships it is not unusual to see a more masculine with a more feminine personality. Yet my impression is that they are distinctly different:
> 
> such as gay: _I am a guy who likes guys_
> compared to a transgender female: _I am biologically male, but identify as a female, and am romantically attracted to males._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Homosexuality and transgender
> 
> 
> Homosexuality and transgender are two separate concepts. Homosexuality usually refers to romantic/sexual attraction or behaviour between people of the same sex, while transgender is a matter of gender identity, meaning that a person identifies as a different gender than the one they were...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lgbt.wikia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*Homosexuality* and *transgender* are two separate concepts. Homosexuality usually refers to romantic/sexual attraction or behaviour between people of the same sex, while transgender is a matter of gender identity, meaning that a person identifies as a different gender than the one they were assigned (usually) at birth. It can also refer to an individual who identifies as neither a man nor a woman. Clear-cut distinctions between homosexuality and transgender are often impossible to make in different cultures and across time, especially where third gender social categories or gender-structured homosexuality exist._
> 
> I would guess that before transgender gained public awareness and maybe still today you might find transgender people identifying with  the LG community. Of interest is the historical relationship at least according to the above link of some level of hostility between the LG community and transgender people:
> 
> _Also, during the 1970s and 1980s, there was a considerable backlash in the gay and lesbian community towards transgender people [1], which culminated in the publication of "The Transsexual Empire" by Janice Raymond [2], a book that claimed feminine androphilic transwomen were "tools of patriarchy for upholding stereotypes of women" and lesbian (gynephilic) transwomen were "tools of patriarchy, fifth columnists infiltrating women's space and raping women's' bodies". It dismissed transmen (presumably heterosexual gynephilic ones) as "deluded and misguided lesbians, afraid of the label 'homosexual'". No distinction is made for describing homosexual androphilic transmen._
> 
> In the celebrity corner, I‘m currently playing a game called *Beyond:Two Souls* that features Williem Defoe and Ellen Elliot Page which made me make a double take, because I am very familiar with this actress  from *Inception, X-Men: Days of Future Past*, and *Umbrella Academy*. I say good for him.
> 
> View attachment 7507
> 
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> 
> 
> Elliot Page Is Ready for This Moment
> 
> 
> "I'm fully who I am."
> 
> 
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> 
> time.com



Put simply being Trans has nothing to do with being gay, straight or BI.

Transgender folk have a brain gender that for one reason or another, does not match that of the physical body. Some transgender people identify as members of the opposite gender of the body they were born with, others don't have a specified gender they perceive.

Being LGB defines what the gender is of the person you are attracted to.

Ergo, when I transitioned for a heterosexual male, one of my nephews asked "Does this make Aunty **** a lesbian now?"

There are sadly a loud and vocal contingent of the LGBQ community that feel that now they have achieved acceptance, it's time to jettison the troublesome T's.

Fortunately most of the LGBQ+ community vehemently disagrees.


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## User.191

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Sound the trumpets for our "all cis people are ignorant and/or evil!" resident member.



Wait a minute - you cis folk don't get to own Evil! We can be JUST as evil - just ask the team of folks who slave work for me...


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## Renzatic

I'm not evil. I'm just occasionally an asshole.


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## User.191

Renzatic said:


> I'm not evil. I'm just occasionally an asshole.



We must have a different definition of the word "occasionally"


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## Renzatic

MissNomer said:


> We must have a different definition of the word "occasionally"




I'm not an asshole ALL the time. Sometimes I sleep.


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## User.168

.


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## User.191

Renzatic said:


> I'm not an asshole ALL the time. Sometimes I sleep.



Some of us have managed to make it to the next level - being an asshole WHILE they sleep.


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## User.191

theSeb said:


> I am prejudiced against all people. (That’s how you get out of jury duty)
> 
> some people are gay. Some people‘s gender does not their biological gender. Some of those people can be gay.
> 
> Who cares really though? Live and let live. People should be free to shag whatever gender they want to and identify as whatever their brain tells them.



That's the thing - too many shitheads equate being gay to being a pedophile, and being trans to being a bathroom peeping perv.

Ergo they want to legislate us out of existence.


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## User.168

.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

MissNomer said:


> Transgender folk have a brain gender that for one reason or another, does not match that of the physical body. Some transgender people identify as members of the opposite gender of the body they were born with, others don't have a specified gender they perceive.




I have wondered how much of it is a struggle against traditional societal gender expectations and in transitioning is a good part of it just swapping traditional societal gender expectations for the opposite gender? If we somehow managed to create a gender neutral viewpoint would there be less people transitioning?


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## Deleted member 199




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## User.191

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I have wondered how much of it is a struggle against traditional societal gender expectations and in transitioning is a good part of it just swapping traditional societal gender expectations for the opposite gender? If we somehow managed to create a gender neutral viewpoint would there be less people transitioning?



It would perhaps help the gender neutral folk, but not others. Not sure on the figures myself but it's an interesting question. Might reach out to a person I know who is gender neutral.

The irony is of course that many feminine things were originally masculine. High heels where the purview of male horse riders for example and the color pink was seen as a male color.

And even clothing has changed - for the longest time men wore nightgowns as well as women. 

And then there's Franklin D. Roosevelt in a picture taken in 1884...


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## User.191

Stephen.R said:


>



Only if certain people want to make it so. No reason for it to be if reasonable level headed folk engage.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

MissNomer said:


> It would perhaps help the gender neutral folk, but not others. Not sure on the figures myself but it's an interesting question. Might reach out to a person I know who is gender neutral.
> 
> The irony is of course that many feminine things were originally masculine. High heels where the purview of male horse riders for example and the color pink was seen as a male color.
> 
> And even clothing has changed - for the longest time men wore nightgowns as well as women.
> 
> And then there's Franklin D. Roosevelt in a picture taken in 1884...
> 
> View attachment 7513




If FDR was the gold standard we'd also all be married to our cousin.   

It's kind of weird to believe that things were much more conservative back then but yet with certain things about certain people it was like there was some secretive "Hey, are we going to talk about that?  No?  OK." meeting.


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## User.191

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> If FDR was the gold standard we'd also all be married to our cousin.
> 
> It's kind of weird to believe that things were much more conservative back then but yet with certain things about certain people it was like there was some secretive "Hey, are we going to talk about that?  No?  OK." meeting.



If one looks back to beyond the European invasion to the American colonies, you'll find many native American tribes were very open an accepting to both gender preference and identity.

The only reason we have this hangup now is because certain other religions preach such things as being 'evil'.


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## Renzatic

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> If FDR was the gold standard we'd also all be married to our cousin.




We always have the option to move to Shelbyville if we want.


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## Renzatic

MissNomer said:


> The only reason we have this hangup now is because certain other religions preach such things as being 'evil'.




Just look back to ancient Rome and Greece. You get the impression that all our ancient civilizations were nothing more than big bisexual swingers parties with an army.


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## User.191

Renzatic said:


> Just look back to ancient Rome and Greece. You get the impression that all our ancient civilizations were nothing more than big bisexual swingers parties with an army.



And Lions. Can't forget the lions...


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## Yoused

MissNomer said:


> The only reason we have this hangup now is because certain other religions preach such things as being 'evil'.




Probably not _entirely_ the fault of religions, only just almost entirely. In the end, though, gender is all about how you relate to other people. If you are alone on a desert island, the arrangement of your crotch will be kind of irrelevant, and you will be free to act in whatever manner you choose. Toucans and spider monkeys are not very judgemental.

The whole issue, from my point of view, is about boxing. The authoritatist types like to stick people into boxes based on the arbitrary criteria. It is this aspect of society that we should be tearing down. Next December 26th, we should destroy some icon or other.


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## Renzatic

MissNomer said:


> And Lions. Can't forget the lions...




Well yeah. You gotta have that side entertainment.


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## Pumbaa

MissNomer said:


> And Lions. Can't forget the lions...



Ah, yes, the lions.









						Kenyan official says gay lions must be separated
					

The country's 'moral policeman' Ezekial Mutua says the animals must have been inspired by seeing gay men and should receive therapy




					www.independent.co.uk


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## Joe

theSeb said:


> I am prejudiced against all people. (That’s how you get out of jury duty)
> 
> some people are gay. Some people‘s gender does not match their biological gender. Some of those people can be gay.
> 
> Who cares really though? Live and let live. People should be free to shag whatever gender they want to and identify as whatever their brain tells them.




I was talking about this with a straight female friend of mine. We were talking about transsexuals' and pronouns, ect. 

We were both in agreement. Like, who cares? As long as people aren't hurting someone else, live and let live. If someone wants to be she/her then let it be. It's not hurting anyone. 

Transsexuals have become the new conservative boogey man. Gay marriage is legal so now they need another scape goat to get people worked up.


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## User.191

JagRunner said:


> I was talking about this with a straight female friend of mine. We were talking about transsexuals' and pronouns, ect.
> 
> We were both in agreement. Like, who cares? As long as people aren't hurting someone else, live and let live. If someone wants to be she/her then let it be. It's not hurting anyone.
> 
> Transsexuals have become the new conservative boogey man. Gay marriage is legal so now they need another scape goat to get people worked up.



The stupidity of pronouns is when folk whine on about how they're now 'forced' to use 'words they don't agree with' - and how it offends their religions rights.

Meanwhile you'll be hard pushed to find even the most religious person refer to a lady twice married (once divorced) who's taken the last name of her second husband, despite the fact said name symbolizes that she has divorced her first husband.

And as for deadnaming - again, when's the last time you heard anyone talk about watching Caryn Elaine Johnson present "The View" or when they went to a Anna Mae Bullock concert? (Whoopi Goldberg & Tina Turner).

The truth is that people use 'fake' names all the time with zero concerns or issues. However when said names are used by those pesky transgender perverts, then and only then does it become a an issue that they feel their definition of god will be upset about.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

MissNomer said:


> If one looks back to beyond the European invasion to the American colonies, you'll find many native American tribes were very open an accepting to both gender preference and identity.
> 
> The only reason we have this hangup now is because certain other religions preach such things as being 'evil'.




Sounds like the Roman Empire was also pretty accepting, not just of gender preference and identity, but also of having other religions that were just as insane as theirs (pre-Christian)


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## User.191

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Sounds like the Roman Empire was also pretty accepting, not just of gender preference and identity, but also of having other religions that were just as insane as theirs (pre-Christian)



Oddly enough it really feels like today's Christianity has a lot in common with the Romans - sexual perversion, persecution of others they don't like up the wazoo, and belief in the one true Emperor (de jour).


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## Joe

MissNomer said:


> The stupidity of pronouns is when folk whine on about how they're now 'forced' to use 'words they don't agree with' - and how it offends their religions rights.
> 
> Meanwhile you'll be hard pushed to find even the most religious person refer to a lady twice married (once divorced) who's taken the last name of her second husband, despite the fact said name symbolizes that she has divorced her first husband.
> 
> And as for deadnaming - again, when's the last time you heard anyone talk about watching Caryn Elaine Johnson present "The View" or when they went to a Anna Mae Bullock concert? (Whoopi Goldberg & Tina Turner).
> 
> The truth is that people use 'fake' names all the time with zero concerns or issues. However when said names are used by those pesky transgender perverts, then and only then does it become a an issue that they feel their definition of god will be upset about.




Reminds me of a lady I knew who said she didn't agree with my homosexual lifestyle because it was against her religion, but she was on her 3rd marriage. #Girlbye


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## User.191

JagRunner said:


> Reminds me of a lady I knew who said she didn't agree with my homosexual lifestyle because it was against her religion, but she was on her 3rd marriage. #Girlbye



Today's modern day angry American Christian is nothing more than a fucking hypocrite.

They'd never be able to live following the laws they preach. So it's "Do as I say, not as I do" with them.


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## User.191

Pumbaa said:


> Ah, yes, the lions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kenyan official says gay lions must be separated
> 
> 
> The country's 'moral policeman' Ezekial Mutua says the animals must have been inspired by seeing gay men and should receive therapy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk



Fuck, I'd forgotten about that. How dumb are these idiots? (Rhetorical question).


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## Deleted member 215

In some ways, being trans doesn't have all that much to do with being lesbian or gay. It is an issue of gender identity, whereas gay and lesbian are sexual orientations. Trans people can be lesbian or gay just as cis people can. The connection is that they are both related to sexuality and are stigmatized. So while I've come across LGB people who feel that the T doesn't belong, I don't agree with that sentiment as a bisexual person. Trans people are part of the community and have been a part of the struggle for equal rights since the movement began.


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## Pumbaa

MissNomer said:


> Fuck, I'd forgotten about that. How dumb are these idiots? (Rhetorical question).



Rhetorical question? Phew! I wouldn’t have been able to provide a straight answer.


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## Huntn

Added to post 1:





						Cisgender - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



The prefix cis- is not an acronym or abbreviation of another word; it is derived from Latin meaning on this side of, and the English word cissexual was coined in the 1990s, based on the slightly earlier German word zissexuell.

Gender Identity








						The Origin of Gender Identity
					

The Origin of Gender Identity




					www.huffpost.com
				








						Gender identity - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




The first article does not really say other than you know. The second article requires Sone study that I need to Apply.



MissNomer said:


> Put simply being Trans has nothing to do with being gay, straight or BI.
> 
> Transgender folk have a brain gender that for one reason or another, does not match that of the physical body. Some transgender people identify as members of the opposite gender of the body they were born with, others don't have a specified gender they perceive.
> 
> Being LGB defines what the gender is of the person you are attracted to.
> 
> Ergo, when I transitioned for a heterosexual male, one of my nephews asked "Does this make Aunty **** a lesbian now?"
> 
> There are sadly a loud and vocal contingent of the LGBQ community that feel that now they have achieved acceptance, it's time to jettison the troublesome T's.
> 
> Fortunately most of the LGBQ+ community vehemently disagrees.



So the question is, is there a simple answer as to where in the brain, gender identity resides and a list of contributing factors, which seem to apply themselves in the  first half of pregnancy?


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## Huntn

TBL said:


> In some ways, being trans doesn't have all that much to do with being lesbian or gay. It is an issue of gender identity, whereas gay and lesbian are sexual orientations. Trans people can be lesbian or gay just as cis people can. The connection is that they are both related to sexuality and are stigmatized. So while I've come across LGB people who feel that the T doesn't belong, I don't agree with that sentiment as a bisexual person. Trans people are part of the community and have been a part of the struggle for equal rights since the movement began.



Going back to my statement that in gay/lesbian couples that sometimes have a more masculine half and more feminine half, I could imagine gender identity sometimes playing a part on either side.


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## Huntn

Stephen.R said:


>



Why?


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## User.191

Huntn said:


> Added to post 1:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cisgender - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The prefix cis- is not an acronym or abbreviation of another word; it is derived from Latin meaning on this side of, and the English word cissexual was coined in the 1990s, based on the slightly earlier German word zissexuell.
> 
> Gender Identity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gender identity - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first article does not really say other than you know. The second article requires Sone study that I need to Apply.
> 
> 
> So the question is, is there a simple answer as to where in the brain, gender identity resides and a list of contributing factors, which seem to apply themselves in the  first half of pregnancy?



Simple answer? Hell no! The brain still hasn't been fully mapped out.

Various studies have gone into such things as the CAG Repeat Length of the Androgen Receptor gene and how it forms part of the grey matter of the human brain. It's deep with part of that grey matter that our identity is created and stored.

Here's one paper on the subject - I could find others if you're interested.









						Subcortical gray matter changes in transgender subjects after long-term cross-sex hormone administration - PubMed
					

Sex-steroid hormones are primarily involved in sexual differentiation and development and are thought to underlie processes related to cognition and emotion. However, divergent results have been reported concerning the effects of hormone administration on brain structure including side effects...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## User.191

Huntn said:


> Going back to my statement that in gay/lesbian couples that sometimes have a more masculine half and more feminine half, I could imagine gender identity sometimes playing a part on either side.



Here's an interesting page that states:



> We observed specificities in the brains of trans individuals, an important finding in light of the idea of gender ideology. The evidence is building up that it’s not a matter of ideology. Our own research based on MRI scans points to a detectable structural basis












						Structural Brain Differences for Transgender People
					

A new study reveals that transgender people have variations in the size or volume of certain brain areas. Rese




					psychcentral.com


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## Huntn

MissNomer said:


> It would perhaps help the gender neutral folk, but not others. Not sure on the figures myself but it's an interesting question. Might reach out to a person I know who is gender neutral.
> 
> The irony is of course that many feminine things were originally masculine. High heels where the purview of male horse riders for example and the color pink was seen as a male color.
> 
> And even clothing has changed - for the longest time men wore nightgowns as well as women.
> 
> And then there's Franklin D. Roosevelt in a picture taken in 1884...
> 
> View attachment 7513



I’m surprised little boys were dressed this way in the 19th century. However I’m familiar with historical European fashion, men dressed just as frilly as the women along with makeup and looking “pretty”


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## Chew Toy McCoy

TBL said:


> In some ways, being trans doesn't have all that much to do with being lesbian or gay. It is an issue of gender identity, whereas gay and lesbian are sexual orientations. Trans people can be lesbian or gay just as cis people can. The connection is that they are both related to sexuality and are stigmatized. So while I've come across LGB people who feel that the T doesn't belong, I don't agree with that sentiment as a bisexual person. Trans people are part of the community and have been a part of the struggle for equal rights since the movement began.




I do sometimes wonder how some people who aren't cis feel about everybody being lumped into the same group...and an ever-growing group.  And is that group expansion being decided by those in the group or those outside it?  "You're not cis, so we'll just add you to this master non-cis group."  

Also if Q = Questioning, is that just another term for what used to be referred to as "those experimental years" except usually referring to the past while Q refers to the present?  Also if that is the case, do they really need a designation and to be considered part of the community?  From an outsider's perspective, it sometimes seems to be getting both diluted and convoluted.


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## Deleted member 215

It does sometimes seem to be a bit convoluted, and that comes both from outside and within the community. There are those who insist on enforcement of an impossible-to-remember "alphabet soup" that includes things like "questioning" and "ally" which can include cisgender heterosexuals, seeming to defeat the purpose of having an "LGBT" community in the first place (in the most broad sense, LGBT includes anything that isn't cisgender heterosexual, the "norm/default"). Not to mention the pernicious actions of what I like to call the three P's: pedophiles, pederasts, and paraphiliacs, who insist that their attraction to children, teenagers, or feet makes them "LGBT" and deserve to be in the community (which is absurd as a pedophile, a pederast, or a fetishist can be straight). This is of course another way that those opposed to the LGBT community confirm their biases against it ("pedophiles are now accepted! see where the sexual revolution has led!"). As an LGBT person who thinks the existence of the community is valid, keeping out the three P's is paramount.

It can get messy, in other words.


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## User.191

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I do sometimes wonder how some people who aren't cis feel about everybody being lumped into the same group...and an ever-growing group.  And is that group expansion being decided by those in the group or those outside it?  "You're not cis, so we'll just add you to this master non-cis group."
> 
> Also if Q = Questioning, is that just another term for what used to be referred to as "those experimental years" except usually referring to the past while Q refers to the present?  Also if that is the case, do they really need a designation and to be considered part of the community?  From an outsider's perspective, it sometimes seems to be getting both diluted and convoluted.



As I mentioned earlier, there is a small, but vocal, part of the LGBQ community that want nothing to do with the T's.

The selfishness of that is mindblowing. The alphabet is essentially an umbrella term of those who, for one reason or another, do not fall into the 'conventional gender norms'.

In a perfect world there'd be no need for the Alphabet because it wouldn't make a scrap bit of difference as to who you loved or what your body looked like.

We're all just human beings at the end of the day and that's all that should matter.

Labels are killing us.


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## Yoused

Huntn said:


> I’m surprised little boys were dressed this way




Seems eminently practical, though, since the bible says nothing about trousers. He looks to be 6~8 years old, at the age where that thing you put on the child in November is strangling them in June. A dress preserves modesty as well as anything and also has a looser fit so it can at least in theory last a little longer. And maybe it makes it a little more difficult for a child to climb into dangerous places. Probably a little easier to make, too.


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## User.191

TBL said:


> It does sometimes seem to be a bit convoluted, and that comes both from outside and within the community. There are those who insist on enforcement of an impossible-to-remember "alphabet soup" that includes things like "questioning" and "ally" which can include cisgender heterosexuals, which seems to defeat the purpose of having an "LGBT" community in the first place (in the most broad sense, LGBT includes anything that isn't cisgender heterosexual, the "norm/default"). Not to mention the pernicious actions of what I like to call the three P's: pedophiles, pederasts, and paraphiliacs, who insist that their attraction to children, teenagers, or feet makes them "LGBT" and deserve to be in the community (which is absurd as a pedophile, a pederast, or a fetishist can be straight). This is of course another way that those opposed to the LGBT community confirm their biases against it ("pedophiles are now accepted! see where the sexual revolution has led!"). As an LGBT person who thinks the existence of the community is valid, keeping out the three P's is paramount.
> 
> It can get messy, in other words.



That's a most excellent post there, @TBL. All we should care about is if two (or more) adults are in full consent then what the fuck should it matter.

Where it gets real messy is with kids: too many people feel that kids have no say in the matter of anything to do with their sexuality or gender. That's bullshit. Kids know a lot more about themselves than us adults give them credit for.

So I already have an exception to my absolute where I used the word "adults". So, what about the kids.

TBH - I think this is where we recognize first and foremost that kids who want to have sex, are going to have sex and there's fuck all we as adults are going to be able to do to stop them - best we can do is teach them safe sex rules and hope they listen. If that's with the opposite gender or the same gender is really irrelevant. But it does break the absolute.

And that's why this gets hard to explain.

Even harder still is with trans kids. Trying to convince your average knucklehead that kids 'know' their gender at a young age is an uphill battle. Me? I knew at age 3 or 4. I spent 30 miserable unhappy years fighting it until I gave in and have now never been happier. 

Trying to get people to understand that kids DO know this and that it's not the adults leading them on, is hard.

And again, they're kids.

This all said, I'm not in favor of 'self identify and done' - at least now. It's way too soon for that. We still need medical people involved in the discussion and have both the kids and parents watched and cared for as they go through the journey.


----------



## Renzatic

Huntn said:


> ...based on the slightly earlier German word zissexuell.




Geez. Wonder why that never caught on.


----------



## User.191

Renzatic said:


> Geez. Wonder why that never caught on.






			
				Captain Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> the Teutonic reputation for brutality is well-founded: their operas last three or four days; and they have no word for `fluffy’.




*BlackAdder Goes Forth: Private Plane*


----------



## Yoused

Was it Arnold Rimmer who answered that being dead is like being on holiday with a bunch of Germans?


----------



## Renzatic

MissNomer said:


> *BlackAdder Goes Forth: Private Plane*




DEUTSCH IST DIE SPRACHE DER LIEBE!

And off topic, I really should watch Blackadder one of these days.


----------



## User.191

Renzatic said:


> And off topic, I really should watch Blackadder one of these days.



You absolutely should. The original was fine, it's the second, third and fourth series that were wickedly good and chock full of quotables.


----------



## thekev

MissNomer said:


> And Lions. Can't forget the lions...




I often feel like a caged lion. COVID kind of exacerbated that.


----------



## Yoused

MissNomer said:


> You absolutely should. The original was fine, it's the second, third and fourth series that were wickedly good and chock full of quotables.



_Back and Forth_ was okay-ish, but nothing compares to _BlackAdder's Christmas Carol_.

I was kind of taken aback to learn that there is an actual Pictish Clan Blackadder, tartan and everything,


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

MissNomer said:


> The alphabet is essentially an umbrella term of those who, for one reason or another, do not fall into the 'conventional gender norms'.




Personally I think the alphabet name needs to be nixed, certainly not added to, and a new umbrella term needs to be made for non cis people. Insisting on this alphabet format is more confusing than helpful. “You better use these letters, in this order, including new letters OR ELSE!!” Does that really help the community? And for those within the community who don’t feel that it is that important, I assure you from those outside the community who want to be sensitive and supportive insisting on using the alphabet term is a distraction. Did I get it right? Did I include all the letters? You know what, I’m just not going to even talk about the community at all, even in support, so I don’t have to worry about offending anybody by getting the term wrong.

Honestly, I’d like to know the community brain trust that thinks the alphabet term is brilliant and perfect.


----------



## Deleted member 215

Can I appoint myself head of the brain trust? 

I officially declare:
LGBT
LGBTQ
LGBT+ 
to be acceptable.

No further effort needed.


----------



## User.191

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Personally I think the alphabet name needs to be nixed, certainly not added to, and a new umbrella term needs to be made for non cis people. Insisting on this alphabet format is more confusing than helpful. “You better use these letters, in this order, including new letters OR ELSE!!” Does that really help the community? And for those within the community who don’t feel that it is that important, I assure you from those outside the community who want to be sensitive and supportive insisting on using the alphabet term is a distraction. Did I get it right? Did I include all the letters? You know what, I’m just not going to even talk about the community at all, even in support, so I don’t have to worry about offending anybody by getting the term wrong.
> 
> Honestly, I’d like to know the community brain trust that thinks the alphabet term is brilliant and perfect.



I don't and I find it confusing. I'm with @TBL on what's fine. Anything else just comes across as needy.


----------



## Yoused

I prefer LGBTS because there is a non-small number of straight people who are mentally and/or emotionally part of the community. I mean, if cultural acceptance/inclusion are desirable, why not be inclusive off the top?


----------



## Deleted member 199

Huntn said:


> Why?



You’re asking why a topic about something heterosexual male born men are quite commonly told they’ll “never understand what it’s like” is difficult to discuss and will likely result in a negative result?


----------



## User.191

Stephen.R said:


> You’re asking why a topic about something heterosexual male born men are quite commonly told they’ll “never understand what it’s like” is difficult to discuss and will likely result in a negative result?




If it comes out that way from people then it can also be due to some people exhausted with having to state the same thing ad-nauseum. 

That said there are many of us who are more than happy to explain when one feels the audience is receptive.


----------



## Deleted member 215

How about trying to understand, then? And listening to what LGBT people actually have to say?


----------



## Huntn

W


Renzatic said:


> Geez. Wonder why that never caught on.



Well that was German…


----------



## Huntn

Stephen.R said:


> You’re asking why a topic about something heterosexual male born men are quite commonly told they’ll “never understand what it’s like” is difficult to discuss and will likely result in a negative result?



It’s not a can of worms, it can be understood, it’s reality, but in many cases the target audience who would benefit to change their outlook is unreceptive to something beyond “traditional“ straight jacket and prejudicial views.


----------



## Deleted member 199

MissNomer said:


> If it comes out that way from people then it can also be due to some people exhausted with having to state the same thing ad-nauseum.



I’m sure that’s some of it.

but there’s plenty of times when it’s not that, where it’s just any excuse - regardless of context or the actual topic being discussed - to “attack” the big bad straight white guy because some other straight white guys did something fucked up so we’re obviously all out to get anyone who isn’t a straight white guy.




TBL said:


> How about trying to understand, then? And listening to what LGBT people actually have to say?



Try to understand what? If someone is just going to make it their mission to blame me for life’s problems straight off the bat because I’m a straight white male, that’s unrelated to me “understanding” anything besides the fact that some people will be shitty for the sake of being shitty.

To be honest I don’t really care what’s in your pants or whether it was there when you were born or who you touch with it or touches it, or which bathroom you use it in. 

That’s not to say I don’t care what you have to say.  It’s more that the vast majority of the time, I don’t think the aforementioned contents/activities/history of your (or anyone’s) crotch is relevant to the topic.



Huntn said:


> It’s not a can of worms, it can be understood,



Please re-read what I read and the meaning of “can of worms”.

I never said it can’t be understood. I implied with the picture and then directly mentioned in the follow up that it’s difficult to discuss.

That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be discussed or can’t be. It’s just acknowledging that it’s a difficult topic for a lot of people for a lot of reasons.


I absolutely understand that a lot of shitty things have been done to this community and I sympathise. I’m genuinely glad that society is generally becoming more accepting.

I’m just not keen to be told everything bad that’s happened to a group of people is “my fault”.

The only reason I originally commented - maybe I’m the weird one - I don’t “get” the point of the original question. People are attracted to who they’re attracted to; what does it matter why? Same thing applies to the “gayness is genetic”. Who cares if it’s a choice? Just let people be themselves. I don’t remember seeing people analysing the reasons for people to be chubby chasers, and in 10 years I’ve never once been asked why I married an asian girl.

Anyway. I’m not trying to disrupt this, so carry on.


----------



## Deleted member 215

It says more about you than it does about LGBT people that you seem to think any discussion of the LGBT community or LGBT issues is blaming "straight white males". Did Huntn blame anybody in his original post? Did anyone who responded go on a rant about "straight white males"? But of course, this an established and familiar pattern. Any discussion about race or sexuality or any marginalized group eventually becomes "straight white males are the _real _victims". 

Hard pass.


----------



## Deleted member 199

TBL said:


> It says more about you than it does about LGBT people that you seem to think any discussion of the LGBT community or LGBT issues is blaming "straight white males". Did Huntn blame anybody in his original post? Did anyone who responded go on a rant about "straight white males"? But of course, this an established and familiar pattern. Any discussion about race or sexuality or any marginalized group eventually becomes "straight white males are the _real _victims".
> 
> Hard pass.



not at all what I said but you do you.


----------



## User.191

Stephen.R said:


> but there’s plenty of times when it’s not that, where it’s just any excuse - regardless of context or the actual topic being discussed - to “attack” the big bad straight white guy because some other straight white guys did something fucked up so we’re obviously all out to get anyone who isn’t a straight white guy.




Now, pivot this on the head. As a straight white guy you‘re pretty much at their top of the tree when it comes to avoiding discrimination. 

The people you’re complaining about are near the bottom. They are discriminated against by a significant part of society. Religions from Christianity to Islam like to make their lives a misery. Right wing politicians want to legislate them out of existence. And when it comes to transgender people, there are even many in the LGB community who want nothing to do with them.

Now - who’s got it bad here? You, the straight white guy who’s at the top of the pack? Ot the LGB folk - especially the T’s who are near the bottom?

Sorry, but your feelings being hurt are not that important to be quite honest. You can recover easily - LGBT folk not so.

I lost a job just because I’m trans. I was a shoe in for a job which vanished one day after I submitted my details to HR for a background check.

And I’m very lucky that that’s the worst that’s happened to me. I’ve had it easy.

So rather than bemoaning how bad it is for you, think of how bad it is for the others.


----------



## Deleted member 215

Stephen.R said:


> not at all what I said but you do you.




Then why even bring up "blaming straight white males"? Why do you assume that's what a discussion of the LGBT community or LGBT issues must consist of? No one in this thread was doing that.


----------



## Deleted member 199

MissNomer said:


> Now - who’s got it bad here? You, the straight white guy who’s at the top of the pack? Ot the LGB folk - especially the T’s who are near the bottom?



This is what I’m talking about.

Other people who are vaguely similar to me treat you like shit so it’s fine to just ignore when people judge everyone the same?

Plenty of straight white guys support you living your life, try to point out the fallacy when people make ridiculous generalisations.

the mere mention of the (presumably) small number of very loud trans or gay people who will take any excuse to blame straight white guys, and you can’t help yourself finding a way for it to be someone else’s fault.

sometimes people are just assholes, irrespective of their gender or sexuality.


----------



## User.191

Stephen.R said:


> Other people who are vaguely similar to me treat you like shit so it’s fine to just ignore when people judge everyone the same?




You can just get your feelings hurt. LGBT people are dead due to their status.

I've twice attempted suicide due to being who I am. Once was when a straight white couple "read" me and proceeded to call me out to everyone in a shop. That night I stuffed my face with a collection of pills and ended up having my stomach pumped out in A&E at 3 in the morning.

Listen, I get you have no issues with us, but please don't think for one instant that gives you some sort of bonus points simply because you're a rational human being.

No, it simply means you're a good person - and good people don't win prizes when compared to bad people.

I've been very relaxed here in this thread so far because up until now people have been interested in learning.

So please, focus on the topic and not victim blaming.


----------



## Yoused

Member 199 said:


> ... to “attack” the big bad straight white guy because some other straight white guys did something fucked up so we’re obviously all out to get anyone who isn’t ...



You know what? Anyone can call my ethnicity fairly closely by looking at me. Fewer than a dozen can attest to my sexual behavior. _Almost no one knows_ for sure unless they have done diddly with me.

Because, I do not go around beating my chest over how macho I am, nor flicking my wrist about how feminine I am, or otherwise announcing or advertising my sexuality to others. If they are interested or curious, they will figure it out, or ask me (and probably get a coy, evasive response).

In other words, no one views me as "the Oppressor" because I do not go around being that person. I meet people on the dry ground of no-assumptions and we find out whether or not we get along. IMHO, living your life like you are covered in bumper stickers is a recipe for pushing away people that you might actually get along with.


----------



## SuperMatt

Stephen.R said:


> I’m sure that’s some of it.
> 
> but there’s plenty of times when it’s not that, where it’s just any excuse - regardless of context or the actual topic being discussed - to “attack” the big bad straight white guy because some other straight white guys did something fucked up so we’re obviously all out to get anyone who isn’t a straight white guy.
> 
> 
> 
> Try to understand what? If someone is just going to make it their mission to blame me for life’s problems straight off the bat because I’m a straight white male, that’s unrelated to me “understanding” anything besides the fact that some people will be shitty for the sake of being shitty.
> 
> To be honest I don’t really care what’s in your pants or whether it was there when you were born or who you touch with it or touches it, or which bathroom you use it in.
> 
> That’s not to say I don’t care what you have to say.  It’s more that the vast majority of the time, I don’t think the aforementioned contents/activities/history of your (or anyone’s) crotch is relevant to the topic.
> 
> 
> Please re-read what I read and the meaning of “can of worms”.
> 
> I never said it can’t be understood. I implied with the picture and then directly mentioned in the follow up that it’s difficult to discuss.
> 
> That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be discussed or can’t be. It’s just acknowledging that it’s a difficult topic for a lot of people for a lot of reasons.
> 
> 
> I absolutely understand that a lot of shitty things have been done to this community and I sympathise. I’m genuinely glad that society is generally becoming more accepting.
> 
> I’m just not keen to be told everything bad that’s happened to a group of people is “my fault”.
> 
> The only reason I originally commented - maybe I’m the weird one - I don’t “get” the point of the original question. People are attracted to who they’re attracted to; what does it matter why? Same thing applies to the “gayness is genetic”. Who cares if it’s a choice? Just let people be themselves. I don’t remember seeing people analysing the reasons for people to be chubby chasers, and in 10 years I’ve never once been asked why I married an asian girl.
> 
> Anyway. I’m not trying to disrupt this, so carry on.



This is basically what all the anti-CRT people are saying. "Stop ‘attacking' the poor white people by telling them the truth about the bad stuff other white people did."


----------



## User.45

MissNomer said:


> If one looks back to beyond the European invasion to the American colonies, you'll find many native American tribes were very open an accepting to both gender preference and identity.
> 
> The only reason we have this hangup now is because certain other religions preach such things as being 'evil'.



Same thing happened in Africa. Yorubas (one of the largest tribes in Africa) have a bunch of androgyne deities and some recent review of Christian mission landings seems to indicate increased homophobia and intolerance in the vicinity.


----------



## Deleted member 215

Well that’s the end of that I guess. This site has strict rules. I hope I don’t get banned for arguing


----------



## Pumbaa

TBL said:


> Well that’s the end of that I guess. This site has strict rules. I hope I don’t get banned for arguing



If you’re referring to our beloved Deleted member 199, that wasn’t a ban but a request from the (now former) member. Argue on!


----------



## Renzatic

As far as I know, there have only been two people permenantly banned from this forum.

I'm one of them.


----------



## Eric

TBL said:


> Well that’s the end of that I guess. This site has strict rules. I hope I don’t get banned for arguing



Yep, while we won't go into specifics in public this was done by request.

@Renzatic you can change your own title now buddy, maybe Hella Banned would be good?


----------



## Renzatic

Eric said:


> @Renzatic you can change your own title now buddy, maybe Hella Banned would be good?




Nah. It's fine the way it is.


----------



## Huntn

Deleted member 199 said:


> You’re asking why a topic about something heterosexual male born men are quite commonly told they’ll “never understand what it’s like” is difficult to discuss and will likely result in a negative result?



Definition:_ A can of worms is a situation or subject that is very complicated, difficult or unpleasant to deal with or discuss._

My reason for asking why is to understand where the person who said it is coming from. When I think of a can of worms I tend view it as a negative term often associated with human failings incompetence, corruption, some failure of human ideals that leads to conflict, and tragedy.  Human sexuality is none of those.

So even though LGBTQIA+ appears to be complicated, and is difficult and unpleasant for some people to deal with, my opinion that for this case, _can of worms_ is an overly negative term that likely reveals and projects the prejudices of the person saying it along with resistance to accepting a reality that does not fit in with a simplistic, uninformed, prejudicial,  unsympathetic, and unwillingness to accept the complicated nature of human sexuality and psychology.

I‘ve got a niece* transitioning and neither I, nor her or her immediate family would appreciate her situation described as a _can of worms_. I find it very fortunate that as a society that trans individuals who find themselves in a situation not of their choosing can find a remedy and sympathy from those around them, not vitriol. 
_*_her used for consistency In this post. The end result she will be a he and has changed her name to a male name.


----------



## thekev

Renzatic said:


> Nah. It's fine the way it is.




I feel like mine should be...

Wanted: a nice quiet monastery where kev can hide


----------



## Herdfan

Pumbaa said:


> If you’re referring to our beloved Deleted member 199, that wasn’t a ban but a request from the (now former) member. Argue on!




Well hell. Who left is going to insult me for no good reason.  Don't want me feeling too comfortable.


----------



## Herdfan

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Also if Q = Questioning,




Wait, what?  I always thought the Q was Queer.  Although not really sure what that means either these days.  Growing up it was a slur for a gay male.


----------



## User.191

Herdfan said:


> Well hell. Who left is going to insult me for no good reason.  Don't want me feeling too comfortable.



I’ll step up to that plate if no-one else will.


----------



## User.191

Herdfan said:


> Wait, what?  I always thought the Q was Queer.  Although not really sure what that means either these days.  Growing up it was a slur for a gay male.



If it’s any consolation, i’m a gay trans woman and *I* thought it was Queer as well for a while…. The someone else told me it was “Questioning” then I was told by another it was “Queer” and now…

Yeah, it’s *that* confusing.


----------



## Huntn

MissNomer said:


> If one looks back to beyond the European invasion to the American colonies, you'll find many native American tribes were very open an accepting to both gender preference and identity.
> 
> The only reason we have this hangup now is because certain other religions preach such things as being 'evil'.



Ironic and a good example where Christians put a lot of words and meanings into Jesus’s mouth as per  what the Bible says. Of course all of that was the writings of men acting as mouth pieces for their imagined God*, with their personal standards assigned,  but even so I don’t remember Jesus having a position on LGB, and don’t know if T was even a thing way back then. 

* Happy to talk more about that here:
Thread 'Let’s Talk Religion and Faith'
https://talkedabout.com/threads/let’s-talk-religion-and-faith.401/


----------



## Huntn

MissNomer said:


> If it’s any consolation, i’m a gay trans woman and *I* thought it was Queer as well for a while…. The someone else told me it was “Questioning” then I was told by another it was “Queer” and now…
> 
> Yeah, it’s *that* confusing.



From post 1:








						What Does LGBTQIA+ Stand For? Full Abbreviation And Other Terms Explained
					

What does LGBTQIA+ stand for? Find out the LGBTQIA+ meaning including lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and intersexual.




					abbreviations.yourdictionary.com
				




…queer, questioning


----------



## DT

MissNomer said:


> Now, pivot this on the head. As a straight white guy you‘re pretty much at their top of the tree when it comes to avoiding discrimination.




I kind of hate to quote LCK, but he had a bit:

_"I'm not saying white people are better, I'm saying being white is better ... here’s how great it is to be white: I can get in a time machine and go to any time, and it would be f***ing awesome when I get there! That is exclusively a white privilege."_


----------



## Scepticalscribe

The excellent writer John Scalzi wrote a superb blog post (in 2012) entitled "Straight White Male - The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is" (and yes, he admits that he has omitted social class - which is another factor that also matters in this discussion) - which is a superlative - intelligent, insightful, hilarious, and thought-provoking - treatment of this subject matter.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Scepticalscribe said:


> The excellent writer John Scalzi wrote a superb blog post (in 2012) entitled "Straight White Male - The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is" (and yes, he admits that he has omitted social class - which is another factor that also matters in this discussion) - which is a superlative - intelligent, insightful, hilarious, and thought-provoking - treatment of this subject matter.




Not just because I happen to be one, but in defense of my people literally everybody who is outside the group has pulled up their barstool to the grievance bar to hail down complaint missives. It can feel a bit much even for those of us who feel some valid points are being made. Attempted allies get instantly thrown in the same fire or are accused of being helpless brainwashed victims. It’s like being a mall Santa but instead of people telling you what they want for Christmas they’re queuing to tell you, you are guilty of something or benefitting from something they aren’t. That’s a long day.

Having said that, I’ve said previously it’s still nowhere near what people outside my group have experienced for centuries and certainly not as potentially deadly.


----------



## Renzatic

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Not just because I happen to be one, but in defense of my people literally everybody who is outside the group has pulled up their barstool to the grievance bar to hail down complaint missives.




As another proud member of the tribe, I've never had anyone accuse me of much of anything based upon my race, color, or sexual orientation.

...well, I did have someone call me "basic" once, which kinda hurt. Though it hurt because it's true!


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Renzatic said:


> As another proud member of the tribe, I've never had anyone accuse me of much of anything based upon my race, color, or sexual orientation.
> 
> ...well, I did have someone call me "basic" once, which kinda hurt. Though it hurt because it's true!




Agreed.  I think in a lot of cases it's like people who are extremely concerned about terrorism even though they've never met a Muslim and live in a town that wouldn't be worth the effort to attack.


----------



## Renzatic

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Agreed.  I think in a lot of cases it's like people who are extremely concerned about terrorism even though they've never met a Muslim and live in a town that wouldn't be worth the effort to attack.




To me, it's all a case of people trying to negate actual victimhood with perceived victimhood. Go into any trans bathroom rights threads on Facebook, and you're guaranteed to see at least 10 people whine about how much they've suffered now that it's supposedly a crime to be a straight white Christian male.

It's a fairly common tactic these days for one side to take what the other is saying, and repurpose it against them. Remember when Trump Derangement Syndrome was an insult against the hardcore Trump supporters? See how "my body, my choice" is more about not wearing a mask or getting a vaccine than it is about being pro-choice? How #metoo is openly derided, yet brought up every time a Democrat finds themselves being accused of sexual harassment? Straight white male victimhood is simply a way to deflect from other issues. An attempt to weaponize one side's opinion against them.


----------



## thekev

Scepticalscribe said:


> The excellent writer John Scalzi wrote a superb blog post (in 2012) entitled "Straight White Male - The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is" (and yes, he admits that he has omitted social class - which is another factor that also matters in this discussion) - which is a superlative - intelligent, insightful, hilarious, and thought-provoking - treatment of this subject matter.




Blog is here. 



			https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/
		


I get the narrative presented, but he doesn't really offer much depth beyond the initial commentary. At least in the more liberal states in the US, "Straight White Female" seems to overtake them in a lot of areas. We have a lot of women's scholarships and young women statistically do graduate at a higher rate. The statistics themselves don't tell you what drives those results, and I'm not going to speculate on that, because I really don't know. 

I seem to remember statistics split by race still favoring in this area Caucasian women to some degree over other races, but I can't seem to find them so I may be incorrect there.









						Poor Girls Are Leaving Their Brothers Behind
					

As a college education becomes increasingly important in today’s economy, it’s girls, not boys, who are succeeding in school. The gap is exacerbated in low-income families.




					www.theatlantic.com
				












						New Report Says Women Will Soon Be Majority Of College-Educated U.S. Workers
					

This year women who graduated from college will likely make up a majority of adults with degrees in the U.S. labor force. The increase could signal greater earning potential for women in the future.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Renzatic said:


> To me, it's all a case of people trying to negate actual victimhood with perceived victimhood. Go into any trans bathroom rights threads on Facebook, and you're guaranteed to see at least 10 people whine about how much they've suffered now that it's supposedly a crime to be a straight white Christian male.
> 
> It's a fairly common tactic these days for one side to take what the other is saying, and repurpose it against them. Remember when Trump Derangement Syndrome was an insult against the hardcore Trump supporters? See how "my body, my choice" is more about not wearing a mask or getting a vaccine than it is about being pro-choice? How #metoo is openly derided, yet brought up every time a Democrat finds themselves being accused of sexual harassment? Straight white male victimhood is simply a way to deflect from other issues. An attempt to weaponize one side's opinion against them.




It's also an overinflated sense of self-importance and connection, like fear of getting canceled when they aren't under threat or worth canceling.  It's the whole "if it could happen to them, then...." mentality.  It actually astounds me to think that a celebrity (by whatever definition that is now) has any impact on anybody's actions or feelings, but I'm also a lot older now than when that might have had more of an impact and social media didn't exist back then.


----------



## User.45

thekev said:


> Blog is here.
> 
> 
> 
> https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/
> 
> 
> 
> I get the narrative presented, but he doesn't really offer much depth beyond the initial commentary. At least in the more liberal states in the US, "Straight White Female" seems to overtake them in a lot of areas. We have a lot of women's scholarships and young women statistically do graduate at a higher rate. The statistics themselves don't tell you what drives those results, and I'm not going to speculate on that, because I really don't know.
> 
> I seem to remember statistics split by race still favoring in this area Caucasian women to some degree over other races, but I can't seem to find them so I may be incorrect there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poor Girls Are Leaving Their Brothers Behind
> 
> 
> As a college education becomes increasingly important in today’s economy, it’s girls, not boys, who are succeeding in school. The gap is exacerbated in low-income families.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Report Says Women Will Soon Be Majority Of College-Educated U.S. Workers
> 
> 
> This year women who graduated from college will likely make up a majority of adults with degrees in the U.S. labor force. The increase could signal greater earning potential for women in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org



Males have a 30% higher dropout rate. I consider a lot of it a matter of postpubertal temperament differences.


----------



## SuperMatt

thekev said:


> Blog is here.
> 
> 
> 
> https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/
> 
> 
> 
> I get the narrative presented, but he doesn't really offer much depth beyond the initial commentary. At least in the more liberal states in the US, "Straight White Female" seems to overtake them in a lot of areas. We have a lot of women's scholarships and young women statistically do graduate at a higher rate. The statistics themselves don't tell you what drives those results, and I'm not going to speculate on that, because I really don't know.
> 
> I seem to remember statistics split by race still favoring in this area Caucasian women to some degree over other races, but I can't seem to find them so I may be incorrect there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Poor Girls Are Leaving Their Brothers Behind
> 
> 
> As a college education becomes increasingly important in today’s economy, it’s girls, not boys, who are succeeding in school. The gap is exacerbated in low-income families.
> 
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> www.theatlantic.com
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> New Report Says Women Will Soon Be Majority Of College-Educated U.S. Workers
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> This year women who graduated from college will likely make up a majority of adults with degrees in the U.S. labor force. The increase could signal greater earning potential for women in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org



Yeah they have done better in education for quite a while, but men are beating them in pay. That tells me that gender bias is pretty heavy in hiring and salary offers and raises.


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## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Yeah they have done better in education for quite a while, but men are beating them in pay. That tells me that gender bias is pretty heavy in hiring and salary offers and raises.



Without diving into the data, STEM pays better and that's where the gender distribution differences are most remarkable


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## thekev

SuperMatt said:


> Yeah they have done better in education for quite a while, but men are beating them in pay. That tells me that gender bias is pretty heavy in hiring and salary offers and raises.




It doesn't start out that way. It aligns pretty sharply with the point where a lot of degree-holding women start having kids.









						Women in their 20s earn more than men of same age, study finds
					

Gender pay gap is reversed between ages of 22 and 29, when women are paid on average £1,111 more, but older men then gain greater earning power




					www.theguardian.com
				






P_X said:


> Without diving into the data, STEM pays better and that's where the gender distribution differences are most remarkable




Part of it comes down to how you slice STEM. If you include healthcare in there, it's much closer.









						STEM Jobs See Uneven Progress in Increasing Gender, Racial and Ethnic Diversity
					

The higher education pipeline suggests a long path is ahead for increasing diversity, especially in fields like computing and engineering.




					www.pewresearch.org
				




There are a large number of STEM specific scholarships that are restricted to female applicants. Larger tech companies also have programs explicitly geared towards hiring female graduates, although I tend to think they do that to avoid bad PR rather than out of genuine interest.




P_X said:


> Males have a 30% higher dropout rate. I consider a lot of it a matter of postpubertal temperament differences.




That is entirely possible. I don't tend to make causal claims without exceptionally strong evidence (thus the reason I almost never make them). I was pointing out that women outpace men when it comes to graduation rates, yet gendered scholarships and recruiting efforts primarily target women.


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## User.45

thekev said:


> It doesn't start out that way. It aligns pretty sharply with the point where a lot of degree-holding women start having kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Women in their 20s earn more than men of same age, study finds
> 
> 
> Gender pay gap is reversed between ages of 22 and 29, when women are paid on average £1,111 more, but older men then gain greater earning power
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part of it comes down to how you slice STEM. If you include healthcare in there, it's much closer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> STEM Jobs See Uneven Progress in Increasing Gender, Racial and Ethnic Diversity
> 
> 
> The higher education pipeline suggests a long path is ahead for increasing diversity, especially in fields like computing and engineering.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pewresearch.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are a large number of STEM specific scholarships that are restricted to female applicants. Larger tech companies also have programs explicitly geared towards hiring female graduates, although I tend to think they do that to avoid bad PR rather than out of genuine interest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is entirely possible. I don't tend to make causal claims without exceptionally strong evidence (thus the reason I almost never make them). I was pointing out that women outpace men when it comes to graduation rates, yet gendered scholarships and recruiting efforts primarily target women.



I slice healthcare outside of STEM in general. My bias.

The 30% higher dropout rate is based on official gov stats. The speculation about temperament is mine. The attitude towards delayed gratification changes with age (study based) and I suspect that boys learning to handle testosterone are particularly challebged in that department (speculation based on my own personal experiences).


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## thekev

P_X said:


> I slice healthcare outside of STEM in general. My bias.




I see it grouped both ways. When I attended college, I saw a lot of women there on student visas at the graduate level, and that was in an engineering department. I'm actually not sure whether the majority was male or female there. 




P_X said:


> The 30% higher dropout rate is based on official gov stats. The speculation about temperament is mine. The attitude towards delayed gratification changes with age (study based) and I suspect that boys learning to handle testosterone are particularly challebged in that department (speculation based on my own personal experiences).




That may be a contributing factor. It remains the case that the group with higher graduation rates actually gets more attention with the expressed goal of improving their overall success rates. This runs counter to typical arguments when addressing other social issues, which is why I brought it up (that and personal bias).


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## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> Males have a 30% higher dropout rate. I consider a lot of it a matter of postpubertal temperament differences.




I'm part of possibly the last generation when college was helpful, but not necessary, early - mid 90's college years.  You could still get a decent job and live comfortably and that's what we assumed the future looked like.  I think it's no coincidence that, that is also the largest demographic of pissed off Trump supporters.  "Get a degree" is the "pull up your bootstraps" reality deflection of the left.  If large numbers of people actually did that there wouldn't be enough success to go around because there already isn't with the people who have done that.  This is where the right wing "Well don't worry about everybody else.  Just worry about yourself" deflection comes into play.


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## Herdfan

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I'm part of possibly the last generation when college was helpful, but not necessary, early - mid 90's college years.  You could still get a decent job and live comfortably and that's what we assumed the future looked like.  I think it's no coincidence that, that is also the largest demographic of pissed off Trump supporters.  "Get a degree" is the "pull up your bootstraps" reality deflection of the left.  If large numbers of people actually did that there wouldn't be enough success to go around because there already isn't with the people who have done that.  This is where the right wing "Well don't worry about everybody else.  Just worry about yourself" deflection comes into play.




The debate over the usefulness of college could probably fill an entire thread.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Herdfan said:


> The debate over the usefulness of college could probably fill an entire thread.




The "college degree required" for the majority of jobs that state that has been a joke for decades.  "But it's also about the experience and maturity gained" deflection just makes it worse and stupider.  College shouldn't be an accepted (or expected) expensive bridge to compensate for our failing k-12 education.  And even with that they aren't teaching personal responsibility and work ethic.  A college degree doesn't say you aren't a shitty employee.


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## Yoused

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> A college degree doesn't say you aren't a shitty employee.




Depending on the job in question, it can, though "employee" may not be the right word. There was a time in the 1980s when "Harvard MBA" was spoken with fear and derision because those guys (and they were mostly men) would come in and start taking rigid accounting of the navies and pintos and limas and lawd help you if there were any lentils or black-eyed peas. They basically made the workplace intolerable while making the ceo smile. It was a college degree for honing your sociopathic instinct for evil.


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## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Not just because I happen to be one, but in defense of my people literally everybody who is outside the group has pulled up their barstool to the grievance bar to hail down complaint missives. It can feel a bit much even for those of us who feel some valid points are being made. *Attempted allies get instantly thrown in the same fire or are accused of being helpless brainwashed victims. It’s like being a mall Santa but instead of people telling you what they want for Christmas they’re queuing to tell you, you are guilty of something or benefitting from something they aren’t. That’s a long day.*
> 
> Having said that, I’ve said previously it’s still nowhere near what people outside my group have experienced for centuries and certainly not as potentially deadly.



Are you saying you or they feel like they are being unjustly attacked because they are white? Not hostile, just looking for clarification.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Huntn said:


> Are you saying you or they feel like they are being unjustly attacked because they are white? Not hostile, just looking for clarification.




I am, but it's mostly just online behavior.  I said in another post that in a way it's karmic justice because now white males have to prove "they are one of the good ones" starting from the default assumption that they aren't.


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## DT

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> The "college degree required" for the majority of jobs that state that has been a joke for decades.  "But it's also about the experience and maturity gained" deflection just makes it worse and stupider.  College shouldn't be an accepted (or expected) expensive bridge to compensate for our failing k-12 education.  And even with that they aren't teaching personal responsibility and work ethic.  A college degree doesn't say you aren't a shitty employee.




I think we're totally derailed from the original topic, but figured I'd wade in, discuss a couple of the points above 

Totally agree about degree requirement for many jobs, there's a ton of occupations that have some, I guess I'd call it, "degree foundation", but where the majority of the real effective understanding of doing-the-job (the real world skills, etc.) come from somewhere other than college.

There's also a ton of skilled tradespeople, musicians, people that work in the food/beverage industry, and - as something I know pretty well - software development is one of those occupations.  Sure, there are some core concepts you should learn, that are taught in school, but if you approach it correctly, they're just as easily picked up without college - the latter offers a lot of theory that you just don't see in real, every day production software development.  My #2 company, I did all the technical hiring, college had zero impact on my decision.  I also didn't do silly "tech skills" assessments or tests, I don't want people who can recall some implementation detail, I wanted skilled, but adaptable, creative thinkers, who used any available resource to fill the gaps as needed.

Now there are some far more advanced topics, that you start addressing at a Masters level degree, at the big tech schools, where you're interfacing with private sector, grants, have access to resources you can't replicate with a "Learn Python in 30 Days" online course 

However, I'd say, re: the point about, "experience and maturity gained", at least in terms of time, age, maturity of many 18-22 year olds - something is needed.  I agree that spending a bunch of [your parent's] money and getting a worthless piece of paper isn't a good solution, we need better programs in 9-12 to prep for the real world, more internship options, increased recognition of skills that would be benefit from a vocational type education (post high school).


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