# A case for one aspect of "defunding the police"



## JayMysteri0

As some might know or seen in various threads here & there, there's a strong intentional misunderstanding of what defunding the police means.  So to help some, I thought I'd provide an example of what has happened when you involve the police, and not what's intended with some plans involving "defund the police".

First:


			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> "*Defund the police*" *is* a slogan that supports divesting funds from *police* departments and reallocating them to non-*policing* forms of public safety and community support, such as social services, youth services, housing, education, healthcare and other community resources.




The most common form that is talked about so as to not impact current police budgets, is using the constant increases police every year, and redirecting that money into services that affect local communities.  The idea being is if they can provide services, it's a a call that the police will not have to make, that are not properly trained for.

One example is:





If such a service existed, perhaps Sandy Guardiola would be alive.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1300163639148593153/



> Her Former Colleagues Called In a “Wellness Check.” Then Police Shot Her to Death.
> 
> 
> The killing of Sandy Guardiola at the hands of a cop illustrates the limitations of brutal, armed police responding to community needs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theintercept.com





> NEUROLOGIST EUGENE TOLOMEO documented an appointment with his patient Sandy Guardiola that took place on October 3, 2017. “She smiles often,” he wrote. She was in “good spirits.”
> 
> Guardiola, a parole officer in upstate New York, was scheduled to start work at a new office location following a four-week medical leave after a car accident. She asked the doctor to sign paperwork allowing her to return to her job. She was, he noted, “excited about going back to work.”
> 
> When Guardiola’s two adult children spoke to her that week, they said she seemed well. To this day, they do not understand why a police officer was sent to their mother’s apartment in Canandaigua, New York, to carry out a wellness check on October 4. Neither of them had been called, although they were listed as her emergency contacts at work. All they know is that Scott Kadien of the Canandaigua Police Department entered Guardiola’s home without her permission and shot her three times while she was in her bed. She died in the hospital that afternoon.






> The police shooting of a Latina woman in a small upstate New York town, with a population that is 96 percent white, did not make national news. Even local coverage was scant. A grand jury declined to charge Kadien, who claimed that Guardiola shot at him first (she legally owned a gun, owing to her job).
> 
> Amid national antiracist uprisings, however, with renewed focus on the plague of racist police killings, Guardiola’s son and daughter are pushing for their mother’s story to become known. Hers is one of all too many deaths that illustrate the risk of entrusting police forces with overseeing community wellness. And, like most every police killing, the story of Guardiola’s death is one of cop impunity, unanswered questions, and ongoing injustice.






> The call was made by parole officers in Rochester, New York, where Guardiola had stopped working prior to her accident, having already chosen to transfer to a different location. According to her children, Guardiola said she faced discrimination in the Rochester office; she was due to start work in Binghamton, New York, following her approved medical leave.
> 
> Yet it was her former office colleagues who called 911 to request a wellness check. Guardiola did not pick up her phone or respond to knocks on her apartment door. Her children believe that she had gone to bed in the afternoon, taken a sleeping aid, and put in ear plugs, knowing that she’d have to wake up extremely early the next day to embark on her new, three-hour commute to work.






> Other troubling details haunt the scene. Why, for example, did the officer call for police backup after the shooting, before calling for the emergency medical technicians who were on standby across the street? There was a 10-minute gap, while Guardiola was still alive yet bleeding to death, between the shots firing and the medics being summoned. Why was Guardiola put in handcuffs? “They were supposed to be there for her wellness, not to apprehend a criminal,” her 24-year-old daughter, Alysa, told me.
> 
> And why, in the immediate aftermath, did law enforcement officials lead Guardiola’s family to believe that she had effectively committed suicide-by-cop? “I had just spoken to her,” Alysa said, echoing the words of the doctor that she had been in “good spirits” and was making future plans. “We knew something was very off,” Guardiola’s son, Andrew, said of the police narrative.






> “There needs to be a change in how wellness checks are done, and who does them,” Alysa said. “You see it all around the country — people having manic episodes being killed or detained.”
> 
> Within the white supremacist context of this country, where Black, Indigenous, and other people of color are framed as a threat, summoning the police for wellness checks risks sentencing to death the person whose wellness is purportedly at stake. In New York, Chicago, North Carolina, Alabama, Minneapolis, and elsewhere in recent years, people — predominantly Black people — have been shot by police called for wellness checks. The very notion that armed cops are best suited to deal with an unwell person is belied by the sheer fact that disabled individuals make up a third to a half of all people killed by law enforcement officers. Guardiola was not ill, as her doctor had attested. Had she been, it’s hard to imagine a universe in which sending an armed cop into her apartment would be a solution toward wellness.






> Police killings like Guardiola’s clarify the American myth of a citizen’s protected private property. White property is inviolable. The discriminatory application of “Stand Your Ground” laws make this clear. So, too, do spectacles like that of wealthy, white supporters of President Donald Trump imperiously pointing guns at Black Lives Matter protesters from an ostentatious mansion.
> 
> Racism and property are intractably bound in a country built by people owned as property, on stolen land. Police raids, deadly so-called wellness checks, and no-knock searches, not to mention the patrolling of public housing — all examples of how the state continues to treat the property of Black, Indigenous, and other communities of color as violable. For months, Breonna Taylor’s name has been chanted at protests across the country. She was murdered in March by plainclothes officers in Louisville, Kentucky, who entered her home on a no-knock search warrant. Taylor and her partner believed there were intruders in their home, because there were.






> In certain ways, Guardiola’s children recognize that their mother’s story is unusual in a movement antagonistic to the police and the carceral system. She was, after all, a parole officer. She had previously worked as a corrections officer on Rikers Island, the infamous New York City jail, before obtaining a master’s degree in social work from Columbia University and retraining as a parole officer. She specialized in working with parolees with mental health issues, and both her kids spoke of her desire to bring her caring attitude to her work, which adds a dark irony to her death in the context of a wellness check orchestrated by that same system.
> 
> Neither of Guardiola’s children approach their advocacy for their mother from an abolitionist stance; they want to see reform and, at the very least, Alysa said, “recognition of wrongdoing” where there has been none.
> 
> “At first, I held onto the hope that since my mother was a law enforcement official, that the system that she served would serve her,” said Andrew.
> 
> Her death, and the lack of any accountability for it, make clear the response to the slogan chanted again and again by protesters at police: “Who do you protect? Who do you serve?” The answer is very few people indeed.




There's a fair chance that if such a group like Denver's STAR program, Ms. Guardiola would be alive.  Obviously because they aren't armed, but it's likely they wouldn't have had the authority to just let themselves in using a masterfob, so an encounter with Ms. Guardiola wouldn't have happened either.  If it had been a service like STAR they wouldn't have had the 'authority' to enter.  They would have to call the children that are the rightful emergency contacts.  If they had needed to enter immediately they would have had to call an officer, which would add 2 more sets of eyes for accountability when entering.  Instead what we had happen was someone killed by police, not held responsible, all because the police were asked to check on the health of the person they killed.  It's a call, that police shouldn't have to answer if it can be helped.


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## JayMysteri0

Wait!  What?!
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1300486631238119427/
If you're going to blame the "defund the police movement", shouldn't it have at least started first?

Crime goes down for 2 years under his watch, takes credit.  Crime rises back up under his watch, NOT his fault?


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## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> Wait!  What?!
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1300486631238119427/
> If you're going to blame the "defund the police movement", shouldn't it have at least started first?
> 
> Crime goes down for 2 years under his watch, takes credit.  Crime rises back up under his watch, NOT his fault?



You have to really watch close to see which side of the mouth she's talking out of at the same time. That's on you man.


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## ronntaylor

I can't stand the slogan, Defund the Police, because its meaning is purposefully twisted. But the reality is that no matter what you call/name it, right-wingers will disparage it while there needs to be progress. Reform done intelligently ultimately leads to less funding for law enforcement; everyone's goal should be a better society that doesn't need large police forces.

NYPD is a perfect example of a need to refocus efforts when it comes to policing and community needs. I'd like a substantial, immediate cut in funds that would be go towards better social & medical services. Our homelessness problem needs an all-hands approach; not untrained, racist and inexperience police officers added to a volatile mix.


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## JayMysteri0

Another example:



> Mother of autistic boy shot by police speaks out: 'Why didn't you just tackle him?'
> 
> 
> SALT LAKE CITY, Utah (KUTV) – A 13-year-old autistic boy is still recovering in the hospital after getting shot several times by police on Friday night in Glendale.  Linden Cameron had injuries to his shoulder, both ankles, intestines, and bladder, according to his mother, Golda Barton. As an...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kutv.com






> Barton said she was the one who called the police and asked for a crisis intervention team (CIT). She said her son, who was Asperger's, was having a mental breakdown. She spoke briefly about how she was told how the CIT would respond:
> 
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> 
> 
> This is how to deal with people with mental health issues. So, you call them, and they're supposed to come out and be able to deescalate a situation using the most minimal force possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She explained to the CIT that her son was having a mental breakdown and needed to be transported to the hospital for treatment. It was the first day Barton had returned to work in almost a year because she can't be away from her son: "he has bad separation anxiety," she explained. On the phone with officers, Barton told officers the best way to approach her son:
> 
> 
> 
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> I said, he's unarmed, he doesn't have anything, he just gets mad and he starts yelling and screaming. He's a kid he's trying to get attention, he doesn't know how to regulate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She said she was to stay while the two officers went through the front door of the home in the area of 500 S. Navajo Street in the Glendale neighborhood. She said in less than five minutes, she heard "get down on the ground" and several gunshots were heard.
> 
> She thought her son was dead and the officers didn't immediately say if he was or was not dead. They handcuffed him, according to Barton. Additionally, she said she heard from someone that the other officer could be seen grabbing his own head in disbelief for what had happened. He said out loud, according to what the mother was told, "He's just a child, what are you doing?"
Click to expand...


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## Chew Toy McCoy

JayMysteri0 said:


> Another example:




That's horrific on so many levels.

I'd like to see the police react similarly when Trump has one of his daily man baby fits.


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## ronntaylor

JayMysteri0 said:


> Another example:




It's never a good idea to call the police for medical assistance. Whether it's a loved one suffering a mental break, or even for a welfare check. Too many instances of the call leading to tragedy at the hands of those least equipped to deal with the situation.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

ronntaylor said:


> It's never a good idea to call the police for medical assistance. Whether it's a loved one suffering a mental break, or even for a welfare check. Too many instances of the call leading to tragedy at the hands of those least equipped to deal with the situation.




Reminds me of a comedian who said white people call 911 like its customer service.


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## Lostngone

ronntaylor said:


> It's never a good idea to call the police for medical assistance. Whether it's a loved one suffering a mental break, or even for a welfare check. Too many instances of the call leading to tragedy at the hands of those least equipped to deal with the situation.




Who calls the police?!? Who needs them, when I need help I call 911.


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## DT

ronntaylor said:


> It's never a good idea to call the police for medical assistance. Whether it's a loved one suffering a mental break, or even for a welfare check. Too many instances of the call leading to tragedy at the hands of those least equipped to deal with the situation.




This is exactly what needs to be improved, defund/refund/crossfund, whatever, arguing the terminology is silly.  A psych issue call should immediately trigger a team of an officer and a psych professional.  I guarantee someone with the proper education could've managed the situation infinitely better - and to be clear, that's not specifically a knock on LE, they just have the wrong and/or missing tools, it's the whole "If you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail ..." trope.


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## User.45

DT said:


> This is exactly what needs to be improved, defund/refund/crossfund, whatever, arguing the terminology is silly.  A psych issue call should immediately trigger a team of an officer and a psych professional.  I guarantee someone with the proper education could've managed the situation infinitely better - and to be clear, that's not specifically a knock on LE, they just have the wrong and/or missing tools, it's the whole "If you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail ..." trope.



Are you suggesting that cops aren't licensed to do electroconvulsive therapy?! Then why the tasers?!

My "fav" videos are when the cops tase clearly schizophrenic black men a dozen times then stand scratching their heads when the person drops dead. ME's report will say agitated delirium... Like their delirium shocked their heart repeatedly. 

We desperately need that person with psych expertise and I think reasonable cops would also quickly understand how this would reduce their liability too.


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## JayMysteri0

PearsonX said:


> Are you suggesting that cops aren't licensed to do electroconvulsive therapy?! Then why the tasers?!
> 
> My "fav" videos are when the cops tase clearly schizophrenic black men a dozen times then stand scratching their heads when the person drops dead. ME's report will say agitated delirium... Like their delirium shocked their heart repeatedly.
> 
> We desperately need that person with psych expertise and I think reasonable cops would also quickly understand how this would reduce their liability too.



As far as that "reduced liability", I believe that's where 'qualified immunity' came into play, and why unions are resistant of it being addressed.  It isn't the officers who need reduced liability, it's the cities & towns who later have to pay out in millions of dollars of liability, while the officer goes back to work.


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## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> As far as that "reduced liability", I believe that's where 'qualified immunity' came into play, and why unions are resistant of it being addressed.  It isn't the officers who need reduced liability, it's the cities & towns who later have to pay out in millions of dollars of liability, while the officer goes back to work.



I'm not suggesting that having mental health people will fix the liability issues. The system is sick.
I'm suggesting that maybe the presence of a person to remind a cop to not use force when unnecessary will keep them out of trouble too.


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## JayMysteri0

PearsonX said:


> I'm not suggesting that having mental health people will fix the liability issues. The system is sick.
> I'm suggesting that maybe the presence of a person to remind a cop to not use force when unnecessary will keep them out of trouble too.



I wasn't saying anything of a sort, I was commenting on the fact that some officers will NEVER care about reduced or increased liability.  Liability isn't an issue for them as long as 'qualified immunity' is their personal guarantee.  Their cities & towns are ultimately the ones who experience FULL liability.



> Cities pay millions in police misconduct settlements - Marketplace
> 
> 
> "You have cities out there borrowing money to pay off judgments because of brutal and corrupt police officers," said Marc Morial of the National Urban League.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.marketplace.org






> “The 10 cities with the largest police departments paid out $248.7 million in 2014 in settlements and court judgments in police-misconduct cases,” The Wall Street Journal reported in 2015.
> 
> In just the first eight weeks of 2018, Chicago paid out $20 million in police misconduct lawsuits, according to a local news investigation.
> 
> New York City pays by far the most. In 2017, it paid a record $302 million for police misconduct lawsuits, according to the city controller’s office.




I'm saying the issue of 'qualified immunity' plays a very large issue as well.

The ultimate idea would be to provide for services that address the things the police should not be expected to handle, unless they go very wrong.

Also making officers very aware that their consequences to their actions that the majority of everyone else will never have on others.  There are far too many officers who manage to do their job experiencing no incidents or that rare one.  It's the officers who experience multiple incidents, still on the job, knowing that a union & city's budget will cover them.


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## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> I wasn't saying anything of a sort, I was commenting on the fact that some officers will NEVER care about reduced or increased liability.  Liability isn't an issue for them as long as 'qualified immunity' is their personal guarantee.  Their cities & towns are ultimately the ones who experience FULL liability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm saying the issue of 'qualified immunity' plays a very large issue as well.
> 
> The ultimate idea would be to provide for services that address the things the police should not be expected to handle, unless they go very wrong.
> 
> Also making officers very aware that their consequences to their actions that the majority of everyone else will never have on others.  There are far too many officers who manage to do their job experiencing no incidents or that rare one.  It's the officers who experience multiple incidents, still on the job, knowing that a union & city's budget will cover them.



Pshufd posted a paper on this but that I didn't read and now have difficulty finding suggested that problematic behavior can spread in the police force like an epidemic. So if a bunch of guys from the top X percentile of complaints transfer to a new precinct, the rate of complaints against other officers go up too. 

There were multiple analyses to show that prior complaints and investigations are great predictors of future excessive use of force. So there are quantifiable reproducible ways to identify the problematic people in the force. The goal should be to have a mechanism to revoke the police creds of these people if the red flags fly high. But, I don't think we have any level of disagreement here. 

I much rather pay the extra money to literacy programs.


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## Huntn

ronntaylor said:


> I can't stand the slogan, Defund the Police, because its meaning is purposefully twisted. But the reality is that no matter what you call/name it, right-wingers will disparage it while there needs to be progress. Reform done intelligently ultimately leads to less funding for law enforcement; everyone's goal should be a better society that doesn't need large police forces.
> 
> NYPD is a perfect example of a need to refocus efforts when it comes to policing and community needs. I'd like a substantial, immediate cut in funds that would be go towards better social & medical services. Our homelessness problem needs an all-hands approach; not untrained, racist and inexperience police officers added to a volatile mix.



How about reform the police?


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## ronntaylor

Huntn said:


> How about reform the police?




The "Defund the Police" crowd is totally against it. Suggesting that it is not radical enough. It means essentially the same thing, but too much energy is wasted explaining this and it gives fuel to the other side (not that cop-suckers/anti-BLM jackasses need anything but thin air to fuel their nonsensical hate).


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## SuperMatt

ronntaylor said:


> The "Defund the Police" crowd is totally against it. Suggesting that it is not radical enough. It means essentially the same thing, but too much energy is wasted explaining this and it gives fuel to the other side (not that cop-suckers/anti-BLM jackasses need anything but thin air to fuel their nonsensical hate).




When you see police officers guilty of DUI, off-duty shootings, etc. making more money than the mayor of their city, I think defund makes a lot of sense.


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## ronntaylor

SuperMatt said:


> When you see police officers guilty of DUI, off-duty shootings, etc. making more money than the mayor of their city, I think defund makes a lot of sense.




I'm actually for defunding police forces. Some can't get any worst if you chopped 10% or more of the budget. The NYPD is bloated. It's extremely wasteful. Cut 10% for the next fiscal year. Institute a hiring freeze. No addition equipment expenditures beyond the absolutely necessary stuff. Get rid of ceremonial BS: horses, officers putting up parade route barricades while on duty. Crackdown on OT abuse, and immediately reform retirement schemes so officers don't rig the last couple years of duty to get fatter pensions.

Deduct all monies paid out to victims of Police settlements/claims: NYC paid out more than $220M in claims in 2019. And that represents a 7% decrease from the previous year. Make the department pay, not taxpayers.


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## Lostngone

They REALLY need to come up with a better term than “Defund the Police” if they want this idea to go anywhere. Removing money from the Police won’t make what is going on any better.

We need other programs/teams at the state and local levels to deal with some of these issues. Simply saying “Defund the Police” doesn’t sell/explain what most people want.
The ones that do just want to remove all funding from the police without some other well thought out plan are nut balls.


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## Huntn

SuperMatt said:


> When you see police officers guilty of DUI, off-duty shootings, etc. making more money than the mayor of their city, I think defund makes a lot of sense.



It would be interesting to verify if the movement means eradicate or minimize the police.


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## SuperMatt

Huntn said:


> It would be interesting to verify if the movement means eradicate or minimize the police.




It's just a movement. It's not a bill or a law. If they push for completely removing police, maybe they'll get 20% of what they want, and we all get a 20% decrease in police spending, replaced by perhaps mental health or community rebuilding services that keep people safer.


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## JayMysteri0

$4 million dollars worth of reasons again in California



> California City Announces $4 Million Settlement in Case of Mentally Ill Black Man Shot by Police
> 
> 
> On Friday, the city of Walnut Creek, Calif., announced a $4 million settlement in the federal lawsuit filed by the family of Miles Hall, a 23-year-old Black man fatally shot by the police while suffering a mental health crisis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theroot.com





> On Friday, the city of Walnut Creek, Calif., announced a $4 million settlement in the federal lawsuit filed by the family of Miles Hall, a 23-year-old Black man fatally shot by the police while suffering a mental health crisis.
> 
> CNN reports that on June 2 of last year, Walnut Creek Police received multiple calls regarding Miles Hall threatening family members and wandering through his neighborhood with a metal pry bar. Four of the five people who called 911 that day had told dispatchers that Hall suffered from mental health issues.
> 
> When officers arrived at the scene Hall was out on the street with a red bandana on his face and the metal bar still in his hand. Security camera footage shows Hall running towards the police officers after they call his name. After several bean bag rounds failed to stop Hall, two officers opened fire with their weapons.





> “People still need the police, we still need them to help and answer calls,” Hall told CNN. “But I mean, is it worth it when it could result in the death of your child? I say no.”





> “The police were aware that Miles was mentally impaired,” John Burris, the Hall family attorney, told CNN. “The family was engaged with the police to protect their son from being shot and killed by the police. But point of fact is, the very thing they were protecting from actually happened.”
> 
> Walnut Creek police released a video shortly after Hall had died saying that they had previously responded to multiple calls involving Miles Hall. Hall had “no significant criminal history and the majority of these incidents were handled as mental health issues and not criminally prosecuted,” Walnut Creek Police Lt. Tracie Reese said in the video.





> Hall’s death has inspired city leaders to find a new solution for what responses to mental health crises look like, with county leaders currently working on a non-law enforcement program to handle non-violent mental health incidents. In a statement released alongside the settlement, the city revealed that it allocated $600,000 towards diversity and implicit bias training programs for officers and city employees, as well as the formation of a Diversity and Inclusion Task Force.
> 
> Taun Hall said that while the settlement doesn’t mean justice for Miles, it does allow the family to focus on the work they’re doing through the Miles Hall Foundation, which is fighting to reform responses to mental health emergencies.


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## JayMysteri0

"Police Brutality Bonds".     

Yes, that is a thing.


> Wall Street Is Making Millions Off Police Brutality
> 
> 
> So-called “police-brutality bonds” are a transfer of wealth from Main Street to Wall Street.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com



And of course someone profits


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## JayMysteri0

And as we are learning in Minneapolis, when it ALL goes to shit
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1309805225432231942/


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## Yoused

Here is a disturbing look at and beyond the death of Javier Ambler, the man who was tased to death for forgetting to dim his high beams.

Apparently, the sheriff of Williamson county was a previous lottery winner (big, fifty million) who decided to start a TV show similar to _COPS_ but moreso. Uncensored, unfiltered, pure entertainment.

Turns out it was that last part that became a problem. The _Live PD_ cameras followed the officers around and what would have been fairly simple encounters/arrests were transformed into theatre. The police went from being public servants to performers, amping up incidents for the cameras, busting down doors that the suspects easily would have opened to have a quiet conversation.

It seems as though PDs across the country have a testosterone problem. I have heard that the police strenuously oppose ending the waste and destruction of the "War on Drugs" because, I guess, they would have less work and not get to shoot as many bullets.


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## User.45

Yoused said:


> Here is a disturbing look at and beyond the death of Javier Ambler, the man who was tased to death for forgetting to dim his high beams.
> 
> Apparently, the sheriff of Williamson county was a previous lottery winner (big, fifty million) who decided to start a TV show similar to _COPS_ but moreso. Uncensored, unfiltered, pure entertainment.
> 
> Turns out it was that last part that became a problem. The _Live PD_ cameras followed the officers around and what would have been fairly simple encounters/arrests were transformed into theatre. The police went from being public servants to performers, amping up incidents for the cameras, busting down doors that the suspects easily would have opened to have a quiet conversation.
> 
> It seems as though PDs across the country have a testosterone problem. I have heard that the police strenuously oppose ending the waste and destruction of the "War on Drugs" because, I guess, they would have less work and not get to shoot as many bullets.


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## JayMysteri0

Some places are willing to give different ideas a try
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1318432078497746949/


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## Yoused

Oh, Kentucky









						KSP training slideshow quotes Hitler, advocates ‘ruthless’ violence
					

Student journalists obtained a KSP Powerpoint presentation encouraging trainees to adopt a “warrior mindset.”



					manualredeye.com


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## SuperMatt

Yoused said:


> Oh, Kentucky
> 
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> KSP training slideshow quotes Hitler, advocates ‘ruthless’ violence
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> 
> Student journalists obtained a KSP Powerpoint presentation encouraging trainees to adopt a “warrior mindset.”
> 
> 
> 
> manualredeye.com



I thought it might be one accidental Hitler quote that they didn’t know was by Hitler... nope, it’s many quotes attributed to him clearly. Definitely they wanted police to see themselves at war with the general population... and to use violence without hesitation.


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## User.45

Yoused said:


> Oh, Kentucky
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KSP training slideshow quotes Hitler, advocates ‘ruthless’ violence
> 
> 
> Student journalists obtained a KSP Powerpoint presentation encouraging trainees to adopt a “warrior mindset.”
> 
> 
> 
> manualredeye.com



Did you guys see the slideshow?! Looks and reads like it was assembled by a 12-year-old...










Some of this shit is really #im14andthisisdeep category.


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## User.45

it goes on:
















Above all, no better follow up to the second Hitler quote than this:


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## Yoused

I managed to load part of the first image, and decided I would rather just read the story that have to look at *tshrimp*'s avatar. How sad that I missed out on the gross misuse of "infer".


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## User.45

What's truly amazing is that the presenter took great effort to make that umlaut happen, even if it's not a real capital Ü, just a lower-case ü with the font size blown up. 


Yoused said:


> I managed to load part of the first image, and decided I would rather just read the story that have to look at *tshrimp*'s avatar. How sad that I missed out on the gross misuse of "infer"


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## Alli

I’m now just sitting here shaking my head and muttering what the fuck over and over.


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## User.45

Alli said:


> I’m now just sitting here shaking my head and muttering what the fuck over and over.



White supremacists in the force?! Whodathunk! 

_Some of those that work forces are the same that burn crosses._


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## Eric

Alli said:


> I’m now just sitting here shaking my head and muttering what the fuck over and over.



Same here, as soon as he opens his mouth I pause (so I can FF on the buffer) or just change the channel. I just want to get through until Tuesday.


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## Alli

ericgtr12 said:


> Same here, as soon as he opens his mouth I pause (so I can FF on the buffer) or just change the channel. I just want to get through until Tuesday.



Last night a friend asked me if I was scared about the election. “Terrified,” I responded. He’s bound and determined that good will prevail and isn’t worrying in the slightest. That, despite living in KY!


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## Gutwrench

JayMysteri0 said:


> Some places are willing to give different ideas a try
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1318432078497746949/




No one supports sending non-LE calls for service to other resources than cops.  The beat officer is busy enough already.  We will see if beat officers are still sent. The projects I worked, medical wore body armor and wanted LE standby for protection. 

The crisis resources will need to include someone legislatively empowered to place involuntary civil holds otherwise LE will be needed.


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## User.45

Gutwrench said:


> No one supports sending non-LE calls for service to other resources than cops.  The beat officer is busy enough already.  We will see if beat officers are still sent. The projects I worked, medical wore body armor and wanted LE standby for protection.
> 
> The crisis resources will need to include someone legislatively empowered to place involuntary civil holds otherwise LE will be needed.



Whatever it takes... When I was a resident I saw some patients in the ER who were brutalized (tased unnecessarily or beat up) by cops  who had medical conditions that rendered them unable to follow commands. And obviously, these are the "lucky" ones, as consult teams don't get calls to the morgue.


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## Gutwrench

PearsonX said:


> Whatever it takes... When I was a resident I saw some patients in the ER who were brutalized (tased unnecessarily or beat up) by cops  who had medical conditions that rendered them unable to follow commands. And obviously, these are the "lucky" ones, as consult teams don't get calls to the morgue.




Reality has a funny way of finding its way into life and tossing a wrench into the best made plans.

In the early 80’s my partner went to an apartment over a 20 year old son having a psychiatric event. No violence, no weapons. Upon arrival he was met by the man’s mother who confirmed no violence or weapons but he had locked himself in his bedroom.

My partner tried talking to the man through the closed door when he suddenly burst out the door and chopped him in the chest with a 2 foot long machete. My partner fell back onto a couch where he was chopped again in the chest. Fortunately the shock plate on his body armor prevented any injury. He ducked and dodged several more chops until he could draw his firearm. He shot once missing but it jammed.

The man having a mental event briefly retreated from the sound of the gun‘s discharge then charged back in. My partner slid off the couch and scooted backward on his ass again dodging wild chops.

He backed himself into a bath room and wedged himself between the bathtub and toilet where he cleared the jam as the man shouted at his mother. When he turned his attention back to my partner he was put down.

I support alternatives but keep in mind shit gets real serious real fast in the real world.


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## User.45

Gutwrench said:


> Reality has a funny way of finding its way into life and tossing a wrench into the best made plans.
> 
> In the early 80’s my partner went to an apartment over a 20 year old son having a psychiatric event. No violence, no weapons. Upon arrival he was met by the man’s mother who confirmed no violence or weapons but he had locked himself in his bedroom.
> 
> My partner tried talking to the man through the closed door when he suddenly burst out the door and chopped him in the chest with a 2 foot long machete. My partner fell back onto a couch where he was chopped again in the chest. Fortunately the shock plate on his body armor prevented any injury. He ducked and dodged several more chops until he could draw his firearm. He shot once missing but it jammed.
> 
> The man having a mental event briefly retreated from the sound of the gun‘s discharge then charged back in. My partner slid off the couch and scooted backward on his ass again dodging wild chops.
> 
> He backed himself into a bath room and wedged himself between the bathtub and toilet where he cleared the jam as the man shouted at his mother. When he turned his attention back to my partner he was put down.
> 
> I support alternatives but keep in mind shit gets real serious real fast in the real world.



Your partner's story was an emotional roller coaster. We agree, a dangerous job is a dangerous job. Regardless, it's hard to digest that the rate of death by cop beat's Canada's gun murders in the general population.


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## Gutwrench

PearsonX said:


> Your partner's story was an emotional roller coaster. We agree, a dangerous job is a dangerous job. Regardless, it's hard to digest that the rate of death by cop beat's Canada's gun murders in the general population.



I apologize for feeling the need to clarify, but he was a beat partner. He was a young kid at the time. 

I’m genuinely not insensitive to the necessity of changes in aspects of LE. Despite having retired long ago, perhaps I can’t adequately divorce myself from it to be objective enough.


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## AG_PhamD

I’m not a proponent of taking away financial resources from the police, but I do think there needs to be reform and restructuring.  

There is a severe lack of freely-available mental health and social services which is a large percent of police calls. I don’t think sending out a social worker alone to deal with a domestic dispute is a good idea. That said, I believe police departments should have mental health professionals on staff to deal with such issues. Whether they are technically trained cops or not I think is irrelevant, but they should be ununiformed and have police backup. 

We can’t expect cops to be mental health clinicians and we can’t expect mental health clinicians to be able to defend themselves in things go south. 

My hospital had me and some of my coworkers do a pilot program for them, taking a Mental Health First Aid course (commonly used by police departments and other first responders). We had to review its utility for hospital staff. In fact it was taught by a female police officer. While she did a great job, I’m not sure how effective the program actually is. It’s taught pretty obvious things and dealing with mentally ill people takes experience. And while I’m sure some cops inherently do well with this, from my observation, many do not. We opted not to adopt the program. 

I think many police officers, even if good people (which I think most are), lack the proper training to deal with difficult situations- particularly mental health. I’d love for them to be required to spend a couple months working in a psych ward. I’m all for a reinvestment in their training across the board. 

I think the real issue here is police unions and their ability to protect cops- even clearly guilty ones. Police need to be held accountable for their actions and then some, given their positions of power. Maybe some of their legal benefits need to be reeled in. I think body cameras will do a lot to remind the bad cops out there their actions can be reviewed. And I think some of the recent cases against cops will make them stay on the line of legal actions. 

Do I mind if police have high powered weapons and armored vehicles- no, so long as it’s justified/within reason, they are used appropriately, and they have the training to use them. When the next school shooter goes off with an AR-15, I don’t want the responding officers to come in with pistols and zero armor. I think a lot of the so called “military” gear comes freely from the military surplus.


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## JayMysteri0

AG_PhamD said:


> I’m not a proponent of taking away financial resources from the police, but I do think there needs to be reform and restructuring.
> 
> There is a severe lack of freely-available mental health and social services which is a large percent of police calls. I don’t think sending out a social worker alone to deal with a domestic dispute is a good idea. That said, I believe police departments should have mental health professionals on staff to deal with such issues. Whether they are technically trained cops or not I think is irrelevant, but they should be ununiformed and have police backup.
> 
> We can’t expect cops to be mental health clinicians and we can’t expect mental health clinicians to be able to defend themselves in things go south.
> 
> My hospital had me and some of my coworkers do a pilot program for them, taking a Mental Health First Aid course (commonly used by police departments and other first responders). We had to review its utility for hospital staff. In fact it was taught by a female police officer. While she did a great job, I’m not sure how effective the program actually is. It’s taught pretty obvious things and dealing with mentally ill people takes experience. And while I’m sure some cops inherently do well with this, from my observation, many do not. We opted not to adopt the program.
> 
> I think many police officers, even if good people (which I think most are), lack the proper training to deal with difficult situations- particularly mental health. I’d love for them to be required to spend a couple months working in a psych ward. I’m all for a reinvestment in their training across the board.
> 
> I think the real issue here is police unions and their ability to protect cops- even clearly guilty ones. Police need to be held accountable for their actions and then some, given their positions of power. Maybe some of their legal benefits need to be reeled in. I think body cameras will do a lot to remind the bad cops out there their actions can be reviewed. And I think some of the recent cases against cops will make them stay on the line of legal actions.
> 
> Do I mind if police have high powered weapons and armored vehicles- no, so long as it’s justified/within reason, they are used appropriately, and they have the training to use them. When the next school shooter goes off with an AR-15, I don’t want the responding officers to come in with pistols and zero armor. I think a lot of the so called “military” gear comes freely from the military surplus.



I'm not sure why this came up again now, but you do realize you laid out the reasoning for "defund the police"?  I get people really want to cling to that moniker ever so tightly, especially literally.  Yet your complaints are what "defund the police" hopes to address.  Why is it there is a severe lack of freely available mental & social heath services?  Because when cities, towns, states need to make cuts for whatever reasons, that's where they go first if not schools also.  Only to turn around and present endless press releases when educational personnel finally get a single digit raise in half or whole decade for the first time.  Who rarely EVER faces a cut?  The police.  In some places, the police are the ONLY service in those places that does receive an increase annually.  Sound military spending familiar?

How would one pay for those additional mental health professionals?  Especially in the covid era where many places saw drops in revenue & wondered how they were going to pay for their regular sanitation services?  One suggestion.  Allocate some of that guaranteed increases that some police departments will get to fund such medical professionals.  Despite how it sounds, no cuts, no defunding, just taking future money and applying it elsewhere to HELP more people.

Like NOT buying armored military vehicles used rarely, just to relive the times of LA's rampart division bashing in the front wall of a home.

Qualified immunity really needs to go.  What's a term that's really come into regular rotation now with some reported police interactions?  "Body cameras were NOT present", or "Body cameras were NOT turned on".  So yeah, body cameras are a life saver.    Only if a well intentioned officer ( we really don't need to bring up the officer's involved with Breonna Taylor ) actually does comport with the rules.  Of course to be clear so no further misinterpretation occurs with this topic, no one is saying EVERY cop is bad.  Only with the police, like ( I'm sure you are aware of ) medical professionals, when the the police mess up it can lead to a fatality.  A fatality unlike others, will rarely involve responsibility on their part.  You try using "I was in fear for my life" if you mess up in your job and see how far that gets you.  For police, some use that as a real life "get out of jail free card".  Unions aren't the only protections afforded police, many protections have been intentionally baked into the SYSTEM only to be intentionally abused by the bad actors.  There needs to be deep dive in fixing things, but that can't happen.  The system is designed to protect all officers & any efforts to address the bad, are framed as harming ONLY the good.

When teachers began quitting en masse recently, why was it?  Because they weren't afforded the resources they needed.  Used their own monies nobly, and weren't even paid well to begin with.  On top of that the stresses of the job were made worse with seemingly endless cuts.  Or being asked to risk their lives in the covid era, when parents can't be assed to do the basics themselves in this time.  When did some police begin quitting en masse?  When accountability seemed to be looming in the horizon after George Floyd's murder.

What does that tell you?



"Defund the police" when you get done clinging desperately to the title literally, does seek to address many of the issues that you & others want addressed.  Only those who don't want some changes need that title & not it's meaning, to prevent any such changes happening, until...



> LAPD releases video in police killing of 14-year-old girl in clothing store
> 
> 
> The death of Valentina Orellana-Peralta, who was shopping with her mother for a holiday dress, raises concerns about police use of deadly force
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com




Even then, probably not.

Yes, everyone agrees the job of the police is difficult.  We can say they need all the best training in the world.  But if you hire candidates that believe every problem is a nail & they've been giving a license to wield a hammer at any point they are concerned, the wrong people can get hammered.  Too often.  It costs money to train & hire the best, money that has been used to buy military vehicles that aren't ( One post from the old place showed how a town had a half track vehicle, that couldn't operate in their own town confines ) even practical for a percentage of uses, but kept "just in case".

The fact that it's easier to get military equipment, over most other resources should be disturbing.



> As We Remember the Militarized Response to the Ferguson Uprising, Trump Says Civilian Police Are Making ‘Good Use’ of Military Weapons | News & Commentary | American Civil Liberties Union
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aclu.org





> Last month, the Government Accountability Office, Congress’s investigative arm, released a truly shocking report on the 1033 program. Setting themselves up as a fake law enforcement agency, GAO investigators applied for military gear and received $1.2 million worth of rifles, pipe bomb equipment, and night vision goggles, among other 1033 equipment.
> 
> GAO officials who ran the sting operation couldn’t believe how easy it was to trick the Pentagon into transferring military gear to a federal law enforcement agency — and a fake one at that. “They never did any verification, like visit our ‘location,’ and most of it was by email,” a GAO official told The Marshall Project. “It was like getting stuff off of eBay.”
> 
> And if this isn’t troubling enough, there’s President Trump’s take on 1033, which he delivered in the same speech where he incited police violence generally.
> 
> In late July, as Donald Trump told law enforcement in Long Island, New York, “don’t be too nice” to “these thugs,” he assured them that the 1033 equipment was “being put to good use.” Trump said, “the stuff is disappearing so fast we have none left.” According to Trump, he changed the rules around 1033 on his “first day,” though there’s no evidence of this at all.
> 
> During the campaign, Trump made clear that he was a fan of 1033, calling it “an excellent program that enhances community safety.” He pledged to rescind Obama’s executive order around militarized policing. Again, it is not clear if and when he did this, certainly not to the public and not even to officials at the Department of Defense. At a House Armed Services subcommittee hearing last month, witnesses from the Department of Defense recommitted to operating 1033 consistent with the Obama reforms, even acknowledging that city councils or other local governing bodies are required to sign off on certain military weapons before they are received.




Looking past the title, there are good things intended. 

But it's a dead subject, killed like so many police victims by  incompetent dems & repubs who see law enforcement as what protects OTHERS from them at any cost.



> Editorial: Congress failed with the George Floyd Act, but there's still hope
> 
> 
> Congress' failure to pass the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act represents a squandering of the moment in which meaningful police reform was possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com




Which some police now realize after 1/6, that both their supporters & congress ONLY support them when directed at others.

So, again, I'm not sure why this is a thing dredged up now.  Things will stay the same. 

Or get worse if we do slide into authoritarianism.  Then many of those who don't agree with "defund the police" may find themselves singing like a 1/6 protestor in jail or facing jail, that such things are a "hardship".  That maybe we should do police reform, that will never come.


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## Scepticalscribe

Blaming police unions (in a country where union representation is low, culturally disparaged, and even the possibility of union representation an unattainable dream for a great many workers) misses the point by a considerable margin.

And neither is "defunding the police" (an unfortunate slogan, to my mind) the answer.

Moreover, in a political culture that venerates violence, is armed to the teeth, and sees the right to bear arms as trumping (all puns intended) virtually every other right, it is inevitable that the police will also be exceptionally well amed, if only in order to be able to cope with the culture and society within which they operate.

The answer is to make them accountable for their actions, and subject to the very same rule of law they claim to enforce.


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## User.168

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## User.168

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## Scepticalscribe

theSeb said:


> Police unions in the US are definitely part of the problem and not part of the solution.




Well, I'm European, and, in general, I approve of unions, union representation and collective bargaining.

I think that the decline of unions in the US has been one of the (doubtless, many) reasons for the deplorable work conditions that so many workers endure and limited rights that so many workers enjoy in the US.

Moreover, it bothers me that fingers are pointed at police unions when other causes - a trigger happy environment that derives from an insanely gun worshipping and violent culture, the racism that remains such a salient issue in US society - strike me as, possibly, much more relevant to such a discussion.

Nevertheless, I see no reason not to compel police forces to abide by the rule of law they claim to uphold (and enforce), and impartial, independent and powerful oversight of law enforcement is clearly very necessary.


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## lizkat

theSeb said:


> Police unions in the US are definitely part of the problem and not part of the solution.




I don't buy that a non-unionized police force would somehow excel at not perpetuating the whole blue line thing of "not snitching" over bad conduct.  All that would really happen is that municipalities could go back to stiffing cops the way they try to stiff any other non-unionized group of government employees when looking at budgets and at the unpopularity of raising taxes to pay employees fairly.     So in my view,  reform should mean far better oversight of the police,  but not messing with their rights to organize as workers.   Hold the bad apples and any of their looking-the-other-way superiors (unionized or not) responsible as individuals.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Scepticalscribe said:


> Well, I'm European, and, in general, I approve of unions, union representation and collective bargaining.
> 
> I think that the decline of unions in the US has been one of the (doubtless, many) reasons for the deplorable work conditions that so many workers endure and limited rights that so many workers enjoy in the US.
> 
> Moreover, it bothers me that fingers are pointed at police unions when other causes - a trigger happy environment that derives from an insanely gun worshipping and violent culture, the racism that remains such a salient issue in US society - strike me as, possibly, much more relevant to such a discussion.
> 
> Nevertheless, I see no reason not to compel police forces to abide by the rule of law they claim to uphold (and enforce), and impartial, independent and powerful oversight of law enforcement is clearly very necessary.




I think police unions go well beyond the scope of what we would consider good or normal union activity, like securing military hardware and lowering the bar for when shooting people is justified without being held accountable.


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## lizkat

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I think police unions go well beyond the scope of what we would consider good or normal union activity, like securing military hardware and lowering the bar for when shooting people is justified without being held accountable.




It's not just existence of a union that causes militarization of police forces OR pressure to justify shootings. 

 People outside police forces --civilians--  put political pressure on municipalities to "reduce crime"...  _*even when crime is not rising*_. Racism, industry lobbies, political favor trading.... all end up feeding this idea that the once vaunted "protect and serve" mission of municipal police forces has necessarily morphed into "prepare to make war on armed citizenry".

And if more of the citizenry now are actually armed to the teeth, is it all down to a rise in crime?  Certainly not. The weapons lobby's pitch has been relentless:  that there's nothing better than another or a bigger gun to "protect and serve" the individual American against, uh...   manufactured bogeymen including the Democrats in public office who are always portrayed as about to come to your door in jackboots at 3am to confiscate your means of self defense.


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## Yoused

Scepticalscribe said:


> Well, I'm European, and, in general, I approve of unions, union representation and collective bargaining.



I think "union" is kind of a misnomer here, though. It is something more like a guild.


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## JayMysteri0

Scepticalscribe said:


> Well, I'm European, and, in general, I approve of unions, union representation and collective bargaining.
> 
> I think that the decline of unions in the US has been one of the (doubtless, many) reasons for the deplorable work conditions that so many workers endure and limited rights that so many workers enjoy in the US.
> 
> Moreover, it bothers me that fingers are pointed at police unions when other causes - a trigger happy environment that derives from an insanely gun worshipping and violent culture, the racism that remains such a salient issue in US society - strike me as, possibly, much more relevant to such a discussion.
> 
> Nevertheless, I see no reason not to compel police forces to abide by the rule of law they claim to uphold (and enforce), and impartial, independent and powerful oversight of law enforcement is clearly very necessary.



I think if you want to get an idea of what we are referring to in the U.S. that demonstrates what we are talking about, you only need to look at Minn & NY.  



> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/06/firebrand-head-new-york-city-police-union-resigns-after-feds-raid-his-home/






> Minneapolis police union president allegedly wore a "white power patch" and made racist remarks
> 
> 
> Lt. Bob Kroll's brash leadership and influence over police department culture are in the spotlight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motherjones.com





> Minneapolis banned warrior-style police training. Its police union kept offering it anyway.
> 
> 
> The union's resistance to reform is coming under renewed scrutiny after the killing of George Floyd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motherjones.com






> Buffalo Mayor: Buffalo Police Union is on The Wrong Side of History
> 
> 
> Brown said on CNN the union has been a barrier for reform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spectrumlocalnews.com




_I wanted to include Chicago & some Sheriff's offices, but this post is already too long._

Once again, this isn't to paint all police unions with a broad brush, but historically any reforms attempted run into the wall of the political arm of police unions.  As mayors have to contend that without the police union, they are often dead in the water, and will have a constant thorn in their side as de Blasio & Dinkins learned in NY.



> How Police Unions Became Such Powerful Opponents to Reform Efforts (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> Half a decade after a spate of officer-involved deaths inspired widespread protest, many police unions are digging in to defend members.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com




I've simplified the approach some police unions have taken about ANY reform, the way extreme 2A defenders get about ANY attempts at dealing with the U.S. gun problem.  To them it will seem like ANY attempt at reform or solution is AUTOMATICALLY the wrong way, because those seeking a solution are NOT them who claim they are the only experts to have any word on a solution.  If you can't get someone to admit there's a problem, you certainly can't expect a solution from them.  I myself am pro union, but when it comes to bigger police unions I find myself disappointed.  I don't even think of them as the same thing as we associate other unions, because of the clout they carry in a city's decisions.  Decisions they will make that are NOT in the best interests of the city, but of a union's members who may not even live in the city itself.

Specific police unions have demonstrated they are in fact an important part of the problems we have.  If unions have their way, understandably qualified immunity will never go away.  Not unless we gain a magical vetting system out of a Harry Potter story our problems with policing gone too far won't end any time soon.


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## DT

Police unions are a completely different animal than typical labor unions.   The latter helps to protect the employees against unfair, unreasonable practices of their employers - the former is about protecting the employees from consequences of their own behavior.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

lizkat said:


> It's not just existence of a union that causes militarization of police forces OR pressure to justify shootings.
> 
> People outside police forces --civilians--  put political pressure on municipalities to "reduce crime"...  _*even when crime is not rising*_. Racism, industry lobbies, political favor trading.... all end up feeding this idea that the once vaunted "protect and serve" mission of municipal police forces has necessarily morphed into "prepare to make war on armed citizenry".
> 
> And if more of the citizenry now are actually armed to the teeth, is it all down to a rise in crime?  Certainly not. The weapons lobby's pitch has been relentless:  that there's nothing better than another or a bigger gun to "protect and serve" the individual American against, uh...   manufactured bogeymen including the Democrats in public office who are always portrayed as about to come to your door in jackboots at 3am to confiscate your means of self defense.




I'm not saying unions are bad.   I'm saying there are aspects that are unique to police unions and it doesn't help that every time there is outrage against the police they reflexively respond that none of it is the police or police culture's fault.  The mountain in taxpayer money that gets paid out in civil suits annually proves otherwise.


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## lizkat

JayMysteri0 said:


> I wanted to include Chicago & some Sheriff's offices, but this post is already too long.




Well yes,,, some rural sheriff's deputies are all in for the idea of the CSPOA (Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association) which advocates for the idea that local law enforcement should decide which laws are constitutional enough to be enforced. 

And they don't shy away from making public political statements either.   One of such dudes went on record in the local paper up here in 2016 suggesting that if anyone figured to be in the market to buy another gun, that was a good time to do it, before and just in case Clinton might win the election.    That was a law enforcement officer on the street, not a candidate for elective office.    Stuff like that can get old very fast for independent-leaning citizens living in conservative electoral districts,  where a county sheriff may even run unopposed on the Republican ticket for decades... and may be allowed to pick his own deputies.


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## User.168

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## User.168

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## SuperMatt

I strongly support unions (I was in one for a number of years). I have 2 family members that were police officers for their entire careers. That being said, I do believe that policing in America is screwed up. Unfortunately, unions play a part in it. While they should be protecting their members from discrimination, unfair firing, pay cuts, etc... they should NOT blindly defend them when they commit truly criminal behavior. Unfortunately, they seem to be doing the latter on a regular basis.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> I strongly support unions (I was in one for a number of years). I have 2 family members that were police officers for their entire careers. That being said, I do believe that policing in America is screwed up. Unfortunately, unions play a part in it. While they should be protecting their members from discrimination, unfair firing, pay cuts, etc... they should NOT blindly defend them when they commit truly criminal behavior. Unfortunately, they seem to be doing the latter on a regular basis.




I think it’s the problem with tribalism that extends in other areas. Ignore or protect your bad apples, no matter how many, because that opens the door to the opposition to calling the majority bad apples.   Then there’s the issue of a long back catalog of protecting bad apples or encourage/rewarding bad behavior, really hard to pivot from there.


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## rdrr

So clearly something needs to be done with Policing.   The whole institution needs to be revamped.   However LEOs are still needed, but they need to do their job and be held accountable for not doing it properly.   I agree that the police shouldn't be handling wellness issues, unless there is a life threatening crises.  I am not in favor of defunding the police as a whole, but re-thinking how the department as a whole is organized.   There should be phycologist and community help as a part of the department, but the mandate should be to protect the community and not the department.   I want LEOs to actually do their job.   In Boston we have roving gangs of ATVs and dirt-bikes roaming the city, causing traffic havoc, blowing through red lights, and in one recent case attacking an elderly man.   Calling 911 doesn't do any good, as the police just ignore them.


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