# Racism against Asian Americans



## User.45

Jeremy Lin on racism:

_"Something is changing in this generation of Asian Americans. We are tired of being told that we don't experience racism, we are tired of being told to keep our heads down and not make trouble. We are tired of Asian American kids growing up and being asked where they're REALLY from, of having our eyes mocked, of being objectified as exotic or being told we're inherently unattractive. We are tired of the stereotypes in Hollywood affecting our psyche and limiting who we think we can be. We are tired of being invisible, of being mistaken for our colleague or told our struggles aren't as real.

"I want better for my elders who worked so hard and sacrificed so much to make a life for themselves here. I want better for my niece and nephew and future kids. I want better for the next generation of Asian American athletes than to have to work so hard to just be 'deceptively athletic.'









						Jeremy Lin: Asian Americans Tired of Being Told We Don't Experience Racism
					

The  number  of hate crimes against Asians and Asian Americans continues to rise in the United States, leading many public figures and organizations to speak out against the violence, racism and hatred...




					bleacherreport.com
				



_
Never followed his career that closely, but he always made the impression of a genuinely cool and levelheaded dude.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

I believe it.

At the risk of sounding like I'm marginalizing the situation, but there has been a huge influx of Asian immigration over the last decade.  The more minorities that roll into town, the more some people aren't going to be happy about it.  Those are just facts and I don't believe that is unique to the US.


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## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I believe it.
> 
> At the risk of sounding like I'm marginalizing the situation, but there has been a huge influx of Asian immigration over the last decade.  The more minorities that roll into town, the more some people aren't going to be happy about it.  Those are just facts and I don't believe that is unique to the US.



I wonder if a big fat orange sack of rotting flesh calling coronavirus “China flu” or “Kung Flu” had anything to do with it? May he rest in pieces.

On a serious note, I married into an Asian family, and the racism they experienced during their lives is real and didn’t just start with Trump.


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## DT

Yeah, did you see this?









						Air Force Veteran Beaten, Called 'Chinese Virus' in Unprovoked Attack in LA's Koreatown
					

An Air Force veteran was attacked in Los Angeles’ Koreatown and called anti-Asian slurs by two men who also threatened to kill him.  Denny Kim, 27, sustained a black eye and fractured nose after he was knocked to the ground in an unprovoked attack on Kenmore Avenue last week, according to NBC...




					www.yahoo.com
				





From the article:



> Kim says he was called a “ching chong,” “Chinese virus,” among other things. Police are now investigating this incident as a hate crime with criminal threats.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> I wonder if a big fat orange sack of rotting flesh calling coronavirus “China flu” or “Kung Flu” had anything to do with it? May he rest in pieces.
> 
> On a serious note, I married into an Asian family, and the racism they experienced during their lives is real and didn’t just start with Trump.




It definitely predates Trump, but I also think the surge in population contributes, depending on where you live.  I live in the Bay Area where there is a big affordable housing crisis.  So you can't find affordable housing while seeing a big Asian population move into the area.  Also Chinese are a big house buying culture.  So some see them as scooping up what little property is available while driving up the cost of housing.

If you don't think economics increases racism I suggest you ask a Trump supporter about that one.  The whole "China flu" rhetoric just made a volatile situation worse.


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## Scepticalscribe

Some years ago, I read "Snow Falling On Cedars" (by David Guterson), - an excellent book, well worth reading - and watched - years and years ago - the brilliant and haunting, movie, Bad Day at Black Rock - and I follow (on Twitter) the wonderful George Takei, (the original Mr Sulu in the original Star Trek), who has written (movingly) about his childhood in an internment camp in the US.....

It is deeply depressing to read (and realise) that this has changed so little over the past eighty years.


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## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> It definitely predates Trump, but I also think the surge in population contributes, depending on where you live.  I live in the Bay Area where there is a big affordable housing crisis.  So you can't find affordable housing while seeing a big Asian population move into the area.  Also Chinese are a big house buying culture.  So some see them as scooping up what little property is available while driving up the cost of housing.
> 
> If you don't think economics increases racism I suggest you ask a Trump supporter about that one.  The whole "China flu" rhetoric just made a volatile situation worse.



It’s white venture capitalists cranking up the prices in the Bay Area. Absurd to blame Asian people for that. Many of them were living in the area before the Googles came into town, so why blame them for trying to find affordable housing when they get gentrified out of their neighborhoods?

You can read how Chinatown has been gentrified. People “see” a big Asian population moving in. Do they not see the actual problem of white VC kids pushing the prices through the roof? Typical to blame a minority group for a problem created by white millionaires and billionaires.


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## Scepticalscribe

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> It definitely predates Trump, but I also think the surge in population contributes, depending on where you live.  I live in the Bay Area where there is a big affordable housing crisis.  So you can't find affordable housing while seeing a big Asian population move into the area.  Also Chinese are a big house buying culture.  So some see them as scooping up what little property is available while driving up the cost of housing.
> 
> If you don't think economics increases racism I suggest you ask a Trump supporter about that one.  The whole "China flu" rhetoric just made a volatile situation worse.




Is the lack of "affordable housing" an issue to be laid at the feet of Asians, or at the feet of (lamentable) public policy choices?  

An aside: This question is rhetorical.


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## Scepticalscribe

SuperMatt said:


> It’s white venture capitalists cranking up the prices in the Bay Area. Absurd to blame Asian people for that. Many of them were living in the area before the Googles came into town, so why blame them for trying to find affordable housing when they get gentrified out of their neighborhoods?
> 
> You can read how Chinatown has been gentrified. People “see” a big Asian population moving in. Do they not see the actual problem of white VC kids pushing the prices through the roof? Typical to blame a minority group for a problem created by white millionaires and billionaires.



 Bravo.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> It’s white venture capitalists cranking up the prices in the Bay Area. Absurd to blame Asian people for that. Many of them were living in the area before the Googles came into town, so why blame them for trying to find affordable housing when they get gentrified out of their neighborhoods?
> 
> You can read how Chinatown has been gentrified. *People “see”* a big Asian population moving in. Do they not see the actual problem of white VC kids pushing the prices through the roof? Typical to blame a minority group for a problem created by white millionaires and billionaires.




Emphasized to answer the question that followed.  No, people don't "see" that.  They are aware of that but what they see on a daily basis has a bigger impact on them daily.  

I'm not condoning it, but I don't think that should be blown off as simply a preposterous feeling for people to have.  But that also doesn't mean run out and terrorize Asians.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Scepticalscribe said:


> Is the lack of "affordable housing" an issue to be laid at the feet of Asians, or at the feet of (lamentable) public policy choices?
> 
> An aside: This question is rhetorical.




Do you include foreign investment in that rhetorical public policy?  

How do you feel about Vancouver putting restrictions on Asian investment in an effort to allow more opportunity for the people who are already there?


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## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I wonder if a big fat orange sack of rotting flesh calling coronavirus “China flu” or “Kung Flu” had anything to do with it? May he rest in pieces.
> 
> On a serious note, I married into an Asian family, and the racism they experienced during their lives is real and didn’t just start with Trump.



I liked Jeremy Lin's comment because the Asian friends I have don't complain about this, as they are used to it. American culture rewards vocality, and I think oftentimes they are the victims of this. Like one of the grievances of my Chinese American BFF from residency is how Asian medical school and residency applicants tend to get low scores for "lack of personality"... It's true that in America, some people tend to assume you have no personality unless you vocalize your opinion about every irrelevant petty thing.


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## JayMysteri0

P_X said:


> I liked Jeremy Lin's comment because the Asian friends I have don't complain about this, as they are used to it. American culture rewards vocality, and I think oftentimes they are the victims of this. Like one of the grievances of my Chinese American BFF from residency is how Asian medical school and residency applicants tend to get low scores for "lack of personality"... It's true that in America, some people tend to assume you have no personality unless you vocalize your opinion about every irrelevant petty thing.



I've always walked around on eggshells when it comes to this topic because of how often they are used as a shield by racists when talking about racism / systemic racism / AA or anything else. 

"See how can their be systemic racism, Asians do well."

Then if anyone Asian has an issue with how things are going for them ( if they decided to speak out ) it just gets ignored.

Any racism Asians were experiencing was mild compared to when the pandemic started, and anyone Asian was being blamed by the simple minded for it.  It didn't matter if these sorts were Black, Brown, or White, attacks were happening in greater frequency against the Asian community.


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## JayMysteri0

You gotta wonder how this stuff gets normalized, don't ya?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1366148434886070281/


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## SuperMatt

Multiple shootings targeting Asian women in Georgia:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1371980384276217859/









						Kemp: Prayers for shooting victims
					

Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp offered prayers Tuesday night as eight people were confirmed dead in shootings at massage parlors in and around Atlanta.




					www.waltontribune.com


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## Thomas Veil

He’s in custody now, thank goodness.


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## Alli

It will be interesting to find out his rationale for the shootings. When I first heard the news I thought it sounded like mob activity. Why only massage parlors? Why not Asian grocery stores?


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## fooferdoggie

it could be that they laughed at his little twig and berries.


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## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> It definitely predates Trump, but I also think the surge in population contributes, depending on where you live.  I live in the Bay Area where there is a big affordable housing crisis.  So you can't find affordable housing while seeing a big Asian population move into the area.  Also Chinese are a big house buying culture.  So some see them as scooping up what little property is available while driving up the cost of housing.
> 
> If you don't think economics increases racism I suggest you ask a Trump supporter about that one.  The whole "China flu" rhetoric just made a volatile situation worse.



Spoken like someone with a clear biased against Asians. None if this (and I mean NONE) justifies the acts of hatred towards them, not even in the slightest. There's a real "I'm not racist... but" tone to this post.


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## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> Spoken like someone with a clear biased against Asians. None if this (and I mean NONE) justifies the acts of hatred towards them, not even in the slightest. There's a real "I'm not racist... but" tone to this post.



I agree, it is never a justifier, but it may be a significant amplifier. 

This kinda reminded me of House Hunters - My Caribbean life... You watch all these Americans purchasing property, driving up prices by probably an order of magnitude and rendering some of these islands unaffordable to their natives. I stopped watching it after a few episodes because it really impressed me as colonization v2. I suspect some folks may have similar emotions about foreign investments in their cities. 

Similar trends can be noticed in big cities appealing to rich Chinese investors in the USA outside the bay area. The real estate boom seemed to slow/halt following the months of Trump's initiation of trade wars, which I consider a hint of this being a significant parameter. So systematic, major investments from any country's bourgeoisie would have similar impact on the housing market, yet we don't complain about all the non-asian dark money NYC is marinating in (one of the reasons I never got to like the city as much as many others do). So overall, even this perceived amplifier effect takes us back to racism. Of course, this is just an opinion.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> I agree, it is never a justifier, but it may be a significant amplifier.
> 
> This kinda reminded me of House Hunters - My Caribbean life... You watch all these Americans purchasing property, driving up prices by probably an order of magnitude and rendering some of these islands unaffordable to their natives. I stopped watching it after a few episodes because it really impressed me as colonization v2. I suspect some folks may have similar emotions about foreign investments in their cities.
> 
> Similar trends can be noticed in big cities appealing to rich Chinese investors in the USA outside the bay area. The real estate boom seemed to slow/halt following the months of Trump's initiation of trade wars, which I consider a hint of this being a significant parameter. So systematic, major investments from any country's bourgeoisie would have similar impact on the housing market, yet we don't complain about all the non-asian dark money NYC is marinating in (one of the reasons I never got to like the city as much as many others do). So overall, even this perceived amplifier effect takes us back to racism. Of course, this is just an opinion.




Thank you. There seems to be a problem on here when I introduce viewpoints that go against the norm here. How about “I can see how some might see it that way. What can we do to change that?”. I don’t even necessarily agree with some of the alternative viewpoints I post, but I definitely know what it feels like to be defined, attacked or blown off just for posting it or trying to get a response that isn’t a deflection. You can’t cancel somebody into agreeing with you. That doesn’t open their mind to changing their view. All it does is breed resentment and clearly there’s no putting the racism, classism, or nationalism genie back in that bottle. So I hope people learn to communicate better which means acknowledging different viewpoints and maybe putting yourself in those shoes and figuring out how to change minds from there, or at least that should be more productive.


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## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Thank you. *There seems to be a problem on here when I introduce viewpoints that go against the norm here.* How about “I can see how some might see it that way. What can we do to change that?”. I don’t even necessarily agree with some of the alternative viewpoints I post, but I definitely know what it feels like to be defined, attacked or blown off just for posting it or trying to get a response that isn’t a deflection. You can’t cancel somebody into agreeing with you. That doesn’t open their mind to changing their view. All it does is breed resentment and clearly there’s no putting the racism, classism, or nationalism genie back in that bottle. So I hope people learn to communicate better which means acknowledging different viewpoints and maybe putting yourself in those shoes and figuring out how to change minds from there, or at least that should be more productive.



I'm hoping we don't consider justifying racism towards Asians "against the norm" on any site.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

ericgtr12 said:


> I'm hoping we don't consider justifying racism towards Asians "against the norm" on any site.



I think you’re translating what I said to fit your outrage. 

Explaining how some people think doesn’t mean you’re justifying the action. I don’t know where you got that idea.

If somebody shoots and kills their spouse because they were cheating that doesn’t justify the killing. It gives you the reason or thought process behind the killing.

as a related reference...


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## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I think you’re translating what I said to fit your outrage.
> 
> Explaining how some people think doesn’t mean you’re justifying the action. I don’t know where you got that idea.
> 
> If somebody shoots and kills their spouse because they were cheating that doesn’t justify the killing. It gives you the reason or thought process behind the killing.
> 
> as a related reference...




Did you not say this?


> It definitely predates Trump, *but I also think the surge in population contributes*



Clarify this... because on its outward appearance it is indeed justifying it.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

ericgtr12 said:


> Did you not say this?
> 
> Clarify this... because on its outward appearance it is indeed justifying it.




The explanation is in what you quoted. I said “contributes”. I didn’t say justify. I’m not even trying to deflect here. I’m explaining the viewpoint of some people. Why do you think just explaining it is borderline racist? Do you think those reasons shouldn’t be looked at, not to condone them, but to figure out how to change that view?

In summary of that Bill Burr bit, there’s always a reason to [insert heinous act here].  You just don’t do it and you’re never going to solve a conflict just by saying “there’s no reason”.  You need to examine it and figure out why it came to that act to prevent it from happening again.


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## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> The explanation is in what you quoted. I said “contributes”. I didn’t say justify. I’m not even trying to deflect here. I’m explaining the viewpoint of some people. Why do you think just explaining it is borderline racist? Do you think those reasons shouldn’t be looked at, not to condone them, but to figure out how to change that view?
> 
> In summary of that Bill Burr bit, there’s always a reason to [insert heinous act here].  You just don’t do it and you’re never going to solve a conflict just by saying “there’s no reason”.  You need to examine it and figure out why it came to that act to prevent it from happening again.



I would argue that they're not "contributing" anything that would justify these attacks against them. Suggesting otherwise is blatant racism.


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## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> The explanation is in what you quoted. I said “contributes”. I didn’t say justify. I’m not even trying to deflect here. I’m explaining the viewpoint of some people. Why do you think just explaining it is borderline racist? Do you think those reasons shouldn’t be looked at, not to condone them, but to figure out how to change that view?
> 
> In summary of that Bill Burr bit, there’s always a reason to [insert heinous act here].  You just don’t do it and you’re never going to solve a conflict just by saying “there’s no reason”.  You need to examine it and figure out why it came to that act to prevent it from happening again.





ericgtr12 said:


> I would argue that they're not "contributing" anything that would justify these attacks against them. Suggesting otherwise is blatant racism.



You guys won't resolve this because both of you are correct on your own terms. Racism is never justified, but racism is almost always rationalized. It's important to clarify the former, but it's also important to understand the latter. Neither of you guys are wrong here.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

ericgtr12 said:


> I would argue that they're not "contributing" anything that would justify these attacks against them. Suggesting otherwise is blatant racism.




The attacks are blatant racism, and again I didn't say justified.  Maybe the confusion is you feel "reason" and "justification" or synonymous?  Not saying that is an odd way to see things, but that's not where I am coming from.

In this case, as an example, to me:

Action: Violence against Asians
Reason: They believe Asians manufactured and are spreading Covid-19 all over the country Why: President Trump said or insinuated it

Don't you think the Why is important in knowing so you can help to change things?

In what I was talking about, economic hardship and uncertainty cause racism to rise.  That's just a fact.  This is probably largely due to our government fiercely shielding those who have the most wealth and for whatever reason our species has to then search out another target they can take their outrage on and people who look different are an easy target.  Historically racism towards specific groups increases as their overall population increases.  For a long time in the US in modern history it was against blacks.  Then in recent years the population of hispanics became a higher percentage than blacks and racism against hispanics also greatly increased.  Now it's shifting to Asians with the population growth.


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## SuperMatt

When things are not going well, SOME people look for scapegoats. Unethical leaders like Hitler (for example) give SOME people their scapegoats, and in his case, 100% justification and carte blanche to attack the scapegoats. Trump did the same thing when he blamed Mexicans for all crime in America and spewed all his wall rhetoric. When he realized he f-ed up on the COVID response, he gave those same SOME people a scapegoat - asian people.

SOME people will have resentment when they see others doing better than them. If those SOME people are white men and the people doing better than them are women and or ethnic or religious minorities, then even if they don’t come to the racism on their own, they will easily buy into what Trump was selling. It is never justified, but it does seem to be a very negative thread running through human history, and exploited by the worst humans such as Trump.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> You guys won't resolve this because both of you are correct on your own terms. Racism is never justified, but racism is almost always rationalized. It's important to clarify the former, but it's also important to understand the latter. Neither of you guys are wrong here.




I think I hit on that in my response above.  We're defining some words differently from each other.


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## Eric

P_X said:


> You guys won't resolve this because both of you are correct on your own terms. Racism is never justified, but racism is almost always rationalized. It's important to clarify the former, but it's also important to understand the latter. Neither of you guys are wrong here.



It's very much like the "I'm not racist, but" trope. We can discuss the influence Asians have on an area as a separate topic, certainly no issues with that. However, when using it in the context of their attacks it's a means of justification.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

ericgtr12 said:


> It's very much like the "I'm not racist, but" trope. We can discuss the influence Asians have on an area as a separate topic, certainly no issues with that. However, when using it in the context of their attacks it's a means of justification.




I think that’s a little “If we don’t talk about it then maybe it will just go away”, and to barrow from Bill again, do you think there are a bunch of people out there who never got the memo that you should never randomly attack Asians, but as soon as they find out about that from a news or talk show they’ll go “Oh! I didn’t know that! I’m sorry.”?

Black musician Daryl Davis famously got hundreds of people to leave the KKK, some at high ranking levels, and he did it by spending time with and debating with them. He didn’t do it by saying he didn’t care about their justification and help throw them in prison to stew in their worldview. He’d openly listen to their viewpoints and counter with more informed information which convinced them their views were wrong.









						Daryl Davis - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> It's very much like the "I'm not racist, but" trope. We can discuss the influence Asians have on an area as a separate topic, certainly no issues with that. However, when using it in the context of their attacks it's a means of justification.



Eric, I really really appreciate your dedication to antiracism and agree with your point about it being important to set lines. But I also think we are among friends here and we have already sorted the malicious people out.


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## Eric

P_X said:


> Eric, I really really appreciate your dedication to antiracism and agree with your point about it being important to set lines. But I also think we are among friends here and we have already sorted the malicious people out.



Agree to disagree.


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## JayMysteri0

Oh to make some heads explode elsewhere
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372184345226674180/


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## SuperMatt

Some officials are saying the shootings in Georgia were not racially motivated. Also, can we all have a bit of understanding for the shooter? According to the Sheriff, "yesterday was a really bad day for him.”  









						Sheriff on suspect who killed 8 women: "yesterday was a really bad day for him" | Boing Boing
					

Robert Aaron Long, 21, allegedly killed 8 women at three spas in and around Atlanta before giving himself up to authorities. Six of the victims are Asian women. Captain Jay Baker of the Cherokee Co…




					boingboing.net


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## Chew Toy McCoy

ericgtr12 said:


> Agree to disagree.




Do you think I'm being malicious?  Do I have an agenda in some of my posts?  Yes, (doesn't everybody who posts) but I assure you it's not to definitively prove people on the left are flat wrong about some things.  It's to get a discussion on some things that aren't easily responded to or defended.  It's to show what people on the right are being exposed to or focused on.  Sometimes I don't even know how to productively respond to these things but I think we all need to work on that and learn.  Just brushing things under the rug is what got us Trump and him and his like-minded supporters aren't going to go away anytime soon. 70+ million people still voted for him a second time despite a well-covered record of being a completely heartless incompetent monster.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> Some officials are saying the shootings in Georgia were not racially motivated. Also, can we all have a bit of understanding for the shooter? According to the Sheriff, "yesterday was a really bad day for him.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sheriff on suspect who killed 8 women: "yesterday was a really bad day for him" | Boing Boing
> 
> 
> Robert Aaron Long, 21, allegedly killed 8 women at three spas in and around Atlanta before giving himself up to authorities. Six of the victims are Asian women. Captain Jay Baker of the Cherokee Co…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boingboing.net




Sounds like he's incel adjacent.  It may not be "I hate all Asians" racist but it's certainly all Asian run massage parlors are fronts for prostitution racist.


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## JayMysteri0

SuperMatt said:


> Some officials are saying the shootings in Georgia were not racially motivated. Also, can we all have a bit of understanding for the shooter? According to the Sheriff, "yesterday was a really bad day for him.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sheriff on suspect who killed 8 women: "yesterday was a really bad day for him" | Boing Boing
> 
> 
> Robert Aaron Long, 21, allegedly killed 8 women at three spas in and around Atlanta before giving himself up to authorities. Six of the victims are Asian women. Captain Jay Baker of the Cherokee Co…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boingboing.net



Yeah, I mentioned that.

Also it's believed this was due to a "sex addiction". I shit you not.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372267849369194498/


> Atlanta Shooting Suspect Told Police He Targeted Massage Parlors Because of Sex Addiction
> 
> 
> Robert Aaron Long, the suspect in the killing of eight people at three massage parlors in the Atlanta area, told investigators that he targeted the businesses because he blamed them “for providing an outlet for his addiction to sex,” law-enforcement officials said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com


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## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> Some officials are saying the shootings in Georgia were not racially motivated. Also, can we all have a bit of understanding for the shooter? According to the Sheriff, "yesterday was a really bad day for him.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sheriff on suspect who killed 8 women: "yesterday was a really bad day for him" | Boing Boing
> 
> 
> Robert Aaron Long, 21, allegedly killed 8 women at three spas in and around Atlanta before giving himself up to authorities. Six of the victims are Asian women. Captain Jay Baker of the Cherokee Co…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boingboing.net



Yes, can't we all sympathize with the angry white person who murdered a bunch of people in a hate crime? I hope they made time to take him to Burger King too.


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## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> Yeah, I mentioned that.
> 
> Also it's believed this was due to a "sex addiction". I shit you not.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372267849369194498/



The sympathy shown for a mass murderer by the Sheriff is really telling of the “values” SOME police officers hold.


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## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> The sympathy shown for a mass murderer by the Sheriff is really telling of the “values” SOME police officers hold.



It speaks to the bigger issue of systemic racism and how police, whether consciously or not, default to a position of sympathy for white people while treating brown/black people with the utmost suspicion. They can talk about changing the laws all they want but until they address the culture and mentality of the police at a fundamental level this will not change.


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## JayMysteri0

SuperMatt said:


> The sympathy shown for a mass murderer by the Sheriff is really telling of the “values” SOME police officers hold.



That's what I said.

By being out there just riffing, the quiet part was said out loud.


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## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> Yes, can't we all sympathize with the angry white person who murdered a bunch of people in a hate crime? I hope they made time to take him to Burger King too.



I'd be OK with this tone from a cop until I remember Amaud Arbery and then I get angry and sad.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

JayMysteri0 said:


> Also it's believed this was due to a "sex addiction". I shit you not.




I do have to ask what sane person or even extreme racist is going to tell the police it was because of sex addiction?  Seems like it would be something embarrassing to admit or use as a coverup excuse.

Reading more up on it there seems to be a whole mess of issues here.  Asians killed, access to guns, sex addiction, sex workers, highly religious, and mental illness, but given the uptick in violence against Asians and coverage of it recently it seems like some people want to make this 90% about racism and spread the other issues among the remaining 10%.


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## JayMysteri0

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I do have to ask what sane person or even extreme racist is going to tell the police it was because of sex addiction?  Seems like it would be something embarrassing to admit or use as a coverup excuse.
> 
> Reading more up on it there seems to be a whole mess of issues here.  Asians killed, access to guns, sex addiction, sex workers, highly religious, and mental illness, but given the uptick in violence against Asians and coverage of it recently it seems like some people want to make this 90% about racism and spread the other issues among the remaining 10%.



I'm willing to focus on the fact that it's still riding on one of the oldest tropes...

It's the "wimmen" that made that poor man do what he did.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372196248246235137/

"BLAMES". It's their fault for providing-  WTF?!  How many other people manage NOT to shoot people at 3 locations for the same reason?

I'm sticking with it's the GUY who did this, and people need to stop making excuses for him.

Meanwhile politicians in GA showed their concern with this bullshit
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372264802484154375/

The concern for life from those individuals is truly something to behold.


----------



## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> I'm willing to focus on the fact that it's still riding on one of the oldest tropes...
> 
> It's the "wimmen" that made that poor man do what he did.
> 
> I'm sticking with it's the GUY who did this, and people need to stop making excuses for him.
> 
> Meanwhile politicians in GA showed their concern with this bullshit
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372264802484154375/
> 
> The concern for life from those individuals is truly something to behold.



This is syntax error for my brain. The cop tries to present this in an empathetic fashion that he feels make some sense, but WTF. Sex addicts don't murder others if they have a bad day, they resort to sex. 

As you guys suggested one of the many concerning things is that people like this guy have access to guns.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

JayMysteri0 said:


> I'm willing to focus on the fact that it's still riding on one of the oldest tropes...
> 
> It's the "wimmen" that made that poor man do what he did.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372196248246235137/
> 
> "BLAMES". It's their fault for providing-  WTF?!  How many other people manage NOT to shoot people at 3 locations for the same reason?
> 
> I'm sticking with it's the GUY who did this, and people need to stop making excuses for him.
> 
> Meanwhile politicians in GA showed their concern with this bullshit
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372264802484154375/
> 
> The concern for life from those individuals is truly something to behold.




I'm not trying to defend this guy or how it's being explained by the police or news, but what kind of reporting would you be happy with?  It seems like anything beyond "We caught the guy who did this" is highly offensive in some cases.  I'm not trying to attack you or anybody who feels that way, but I am wondering if there is any thought on that beyond "just not like that".  

I think people are being highly sensitive thinking providing reasons is at the same time condoning those reasons.  To make it less personal, if somebody blew up an abandoned building wouldn't you want to know why?  If it was determined that they did it because they enjoy blowing things up and shared that with the public would you consider that condoning blowing things up?


----------



## JayMysteri0

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I'm not trying to defend this guy or how it's being explained by the police or news, but what kind of reporting would you be happy with?  It seems like anything beyond "We caught the guy who did this" is highly offensive in some cases.  I'm not trying to attack you or anybody who feels that way, but I am wondering if there is any thought on that beyond "just not like that".
> 
> I think people are being highly sensitive thinking providing reasons is at the same time condoning those reasons.  To make it less personal, if somebody blew up an abandoned building wouldn't you want to know why?  If it was determined that they did it because they enjoy blowing things up and shared that with the public would you consider that condoning blowing things up?



I actually don't give a shit about the reporting.  What set my teeth on edge was the officer.  I didn't lean on the racism aspect, because the suspect at the time hadn't said why they did it.  Now that they have said, it's mind boggling.  It's either an awareness of the penalty that comes from hate crimes, or an admission of true epic levels of pitiful.

I haven't talked or thought about the reporting, because it hasn't been necessary for me to.

A guy killed 8 people, specifically women, and Asian.  In the current climate it wasn't a big stretch to worry about it being the ultimate escalation of rising racism against Asian Americans.  A guy killed 8 people & I'm hearing excuses for the man doing it.  

No.

This isn't like the days of old when motivations were happily declared.  We may never know the man's true motivations, while he's smart enough to consider his own survivability.  Just don't have the police & media help make this guy's defense, like some eagerly did Rittenhouse.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

JayMysteri0 said:


> I actually don't give a shit about the reporting.  What set my teeth on edge was the officer.  I didn't lean on the racism aspect, because the suspect at the time hadn't said why they did it.  Now that they have said, it's mind boggling.  It's either an awareness of the penalty that comes from hate crimes, or an admission of true epic levels of pitiful.
> 
> I haven't talked or thought about the reporting, because it hasn't been necessary for me to.
> 
> A guy killed 8 people, specifically women, and Asian.  In the current climate it wasn't a big stretch to worry about it being the ultimate escalation of rising racism against Asian Americans.  A guy killed 8 people & I'm hearing excuses for the man doing it.
> 
> No.
> 
> This isn't like the days of old when motivations were happily declared.  We may never know the man's true motivations, while he's smart enough to consider his own survivability.  Just don't have the police & media help make this guy's defense, like some eagerly did Rittenhouse.




I don't think this compares to Rittenhouse at all.  The most obvious reason is there was no self defense excuse as a possibility given, not any heroic or patriotic cause.   

Do you think there is a possibility of mental illness coupled with religious guilt beliefs?  From the interviews I read from people who knew him there seems to be the usual "he was kind of a loner" through-line along with "this guy isn't anything like the guy I knew".  Also at least one psychologist posited, while admitting they'd need more information and personal time, that from his behavior both in the act and confession could be early unset schizophrenia.   

I highly doubt somebody would set out to do something at this scale that they knew would be seen as a hate crime (if they were specifically trying to to target Asians) would have the forethought to then try to remove that excuse from the equation.  You honestly think somebody who *killed 8 people* thinks there's a vast difference in punishment if it was a hate crime?  Is that even true?  What's the difference, 4 death sentences compared to 8 death sentences?

On your second possibility of "admission of true epic levels of pitiful" I think you are agreeing with me in who would actually admit to that, and that's where I turn to mental illness.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I don't think this compares to Rittenhouse at all.  The most obvious reason is there was no self defense excuse as a possibility given, not any heroic or patriotic cause.
> 
> Do you think there is a possibility of mental illness coupled with religious guilt beliefs?  From the interviews I read from people who knew him there seems to be the usual "he was kind of a loner" through-line along with "this guy isn't anything like the guy I knew".  Also at least one psychologist posited, while admitting they'd need more information and personal time, that from his behavior both in the act and confession could be early unset schizophrenia.
> 
> I highly doubt somebody would set out to do something at this scale that they knew would be seen as a hate crime (if they were specifically trying to to target Asians) would have the forethought to then try to remove that excuse from the equation.  You honestly think somebody who *killed 8 people* thinks there's a vast difference in punishment if it was a hate crime?  Is that even true?  What's the difference, 4 death sentences compared to 8 death sentences?
> 
> On your second possibility of "admission of true epic levels of pitiful" I think you are agreeing with me in who would actually admit to that, and that's where I turn to mental illness.



You aren't conceptually wrong, but you are contextually (IMHO). It obviously sounds like a mental health issue, but we seem to start caring more about mental health when it's a white person.


----------



## Alli

I’m just left once again wondering why white murderers are easily arrested and taken, unharmed, to jail, while people of color are killed by the police even if they don’t have a weapon.


----------



## SuperMatt

Alli said:


> I’m just left once again wondering why white murderers are easily arrested and taken, unharmed, to jail, while people of color are killed by the police even if they don’t have a weapon.



It‘s also political, not just racial. The guy who shot a right-winger in Portland was shot dead in the street by the cops…


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> I’m just left once again wondering why white murderers are easily arrested and taken, unharmed, to jail, while people of color are killed by the police even if they don’t have a weapon.



Great question, if it's a black person stopped for the crime of say _walking while black_ and they question the cops and start resisting, they're taking their lives into their own hands by doing so. The answer? Don't question authority for any reason at all, shut up and let the cops grill you for absolutely no reasonable reason. The first thing Fox News and Republicans will always ask is "what did the black person do to provoke it?", never asking why they were targeted in the first place.

When you're white, you simply don't have that challenge as cops see you on a more equal plane. They're less likely to question you and give you more leeway when responding.


----------



## JayMysteri0

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I don't think this compares to Rittenhouse at all.  The most obvious reason is there was no self defense excuse as a possibility given, not any heroic or patriotic cause.
> 
> Do you think there is a possibility of mental illness coupled with religious guilt beliefs?  From the interviews I read from people who knew him there seems to be the usual "he was kind of a loner" through-line along with "this guy isn't anything like the guy I knew".  Also at least one psychologist posited, while admitting they'd need more information and personal time, that from his behavior both in the act and confession could be early unset schizophrenia.
> 
> I highly doubt somebody would set out to do something at this scale that they knew would be seen as a hate crime (if they were specifically trying to to target Asians) would have the forethought to then try to remove that excuse from the equation.  You honestly think somebody who *killed 8 people* thinks there's a vast difference in punishment if it was a hate crime?  Is that even true?  What's the difference, 4 death sentences compared to 8 death sentences?
> 
> On your second possibility of "admission of true epic levels of pitiful" I think you are agreeing with me in who would actually admit to that, and that's where I turn to mental illness.



I'm not comparing it to Rittenhouse that way. 

I'm just saying I don't want to hear anyone or media providing excuses for the guy.  He can do that himself.  This is where narratives begin as everyone tries to put their spin on the actions of a person they don't understand.  Let him tell it, dig his own hole.

I don't even want to go to mental illness, because that becomes the gun fetishists defense of all things when a white guy kills multiple people.  Yeah the guy has issues, so do racists.  So do people who drive around from place to place killing people.  There can still be more to the story, and I don't need "he had a bad day".  Fuck him.  The dead people won't be having anymore bad days, I guess that's some kind of consolation.

Let the guy give his multiple accounts, and we go from there.

The bottomline as I've expressed with the various tweets.  White guy kills 8 people, is captured alive by police, police give "he had a bad day" riff, 8 people dead and some want to faff on about racism aspect.  I'm sorry if your laser focus is Asian massage parlors, you have literally opened that door of discussion.  It has to happen.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372368730093670400/

Honestly to me, FUCK that guy.  He wasn't defending himself.  Hearing the sheriff even riff out some bullshit about the guy over the victims turns my stomach, and reminds me of why the police has issues.  That FUCKING guy deserves no consideration at this moment.  Yet a sheriff went there out of seeming concern.  FUCK THAT GUY too. 

I concern myself more with the victims.

What reporting they get?


----------



## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> Great question, if it's a black person stopped for the crime of say _walking while black_ and they question the cops and start resisting, they're taking their lives into their own hands by doing so. The answer? Don't question authority for any reason at all, shut up and let the cops grill you for absolutely no reasonable reason. The first thing Fox News and Republicans will always ask is "what did the black person do to provoke it?", never asking why they were targeted in the first place.
> 
> When you're white, you simply don't have that challenge as cops see you on a more equal plane. They're less likely to question you and give you more leeway when responding.



Cops know how to push people's buttons if they want to and they want to when it comes to certain people.


----------



## JayMysteri0

ericgtr12 said:


> Great question, if it's a black person stopped for the crime of say _walking while black_ and they question the cops and start resisting, they're taking their lives into their own hands by doing so. The answer? Don't question authority for any reason at all, shut up and let the cops grill you for absolutely no reasonable reason. The first thing Fox News and Republicans will always ask is "what did the black person do to provoke it?", never asking why they were targeted in the first place.
> 
> When you're white, you simply don't have that challenge as cops see you on a more equal plane. They're less likely to question you and give you more leeway when responding.



The nut kick is always reduced simply.

Police officer kills a Black man because he has a phone or something, it was done in "fear for their life".

Police officer knows a White guy killed 8 people, ...where did that fear go?  You know THAT guy is armed, but... ?!!!

My favorite example of this is when in PRSI the incident came up where the police shot the sleeping rapper who had a gun on his person.  Out of fear they unloaded because they thought he was waking.  If waking was such an issue, what was their ultimate plan for that situation?

Meanwhile in Florida, a White woman held someone hostage with a gun IN A CAR.  In Florida they called a SWAT team and everyone lived.

With the rapper, the F'n circled the car and opened fire.  

Or the example I will NEVER let go.  The Black guy who was caring for a mentally disabled young White man, who someone called the police to say the young man had a gun.  Which was not a gun, but a toy FIRE truck.  The young man freaks out when the police arrive.  The Black man calms the young man down as they lie in the street as the police ask.

An officer shoots the Black guy.

The Black guy that they were NOT called on about.  That's the guy that gets shot.

There's the story of the guy who had a rifle on a rooftop was shooting people, the police took that White male shooter alive.

Later on another roof in that town, they would kill a Black man they suspected threw away his weapon before he got on the roof.  But suddenly that weapon they never found may have made it to the roof, so out of fear...

Such incidents never seem to end

So we get a White guy who kills 8 people, taken alive, and he "had a bad day".

What?

Because the police forgot to stop at Burger King?


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

JayMysteri0 said:


> I'm not comparing it to Rittenhouse that way.
> 
> I'm just saying I don't want to hear anyone or media providing excuses for the guy.  He can do that himself.  This is where narratives begin as everyone tries to put their spin on the actions of a person they don't understand.  Let him tell it, dig his own hole.
> 
> I don't even want to go to mental illness, because that becomes the gun fetishists defense of all things when a white guy kills multiple people.  Yeah the guy has issues, so do racists.  So do people who drive around from place to place killing people.  There can still be more to the story, and I don't need "he had a bad day".  Fuck him.  The dead people won't be having anymore bad days, I guess that's some kind of consolation.
> 
> Let the guy give his multiple accounts, and we go from there.
> 
> The bottomline as I've expressed with the various tweets.  White guy kills 8 people, is captured alive by police, police give "he had a bad day" riff, 8 people dead and some want to faff on about racism aspect.  I'm sorry if your laser focus is Asian massage parlors, you have literally opened that door of discussion.  It has to happen.
> 
> Honestly to me, FUCK that guy.  He wasn't defending himself.  Hearing the sheriff even riff out some bullshit about the guy over the victims turns my stomach, and reminds me of why the police has issues.  That FUCKING guy deserves no consideration at this moment.  Yet a sheriff went there out of seeming concern.  FUCK THAT GUY too.
> 
> I concern myself more with the victims.
> 
> What reporting they get?




Thanks for responding to my points but I feel you are on a single minded crusade here, and you're welcome to do that.  But what I'm saying is while you may care only about one aspect others care about multiple or different aspects.  And I believe if you want real long lasting change then you need to acknowledge and address all of those, as overwhelming as it is or may seem.  The mindset of "at minimum you just don't do this" doesn't solve the layers of problems.  It's no different than people saying "They weren't slaves for over 100 years, so what's the problem?".


----------



## JayMysteri0

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Thanks for responding to my points but I feel you are on a single minded crusade here, and you're welcome to do that.  But what I'm saying is while you may care only about one aspect others care about multiple or different aspects.  And I believe if you want real long lasting change then you need to acknowledge and address all of those, as overwhelming as it is or may seem.  The mindset of "at minimum you just don't do this" doesn't solve the layers of problems.  It's no different than people saying "They weren't slaves for over 100 years, so what's the problem?".



No.

A lifetime has shown me I could probe to fucking Uranus, and it will NOT affect change.  SOME people will NOT allow that change.  My "single minded crusade" is borne from frustration & the all too true jaded realization acquired from a lifetime.  What that line comes across as,* I *have to do something to NOT have people kill ME or people of color, or different sexual orientation, or religion.  Really, "I have to"?

No.

The people doing the killing NEED to fucking acknowledge that other people's lives are not some disposable thing, because they got into their feelings.  It's not a women's fault some guy gets a ----- and can't use it.  That's him!  He needed to acknowledge that, preferably with some therapy he was probably too embarrassed to seek.  So instead...

I've managed to go this far in life without a mass killing spree that I am willing to confess to.  WHY is that difficult for SOME others to do?

That's the issue.  As long as "those" ( said with sarcasm ) people get coddled with, "Oh we need to understand YOUR issues".  Really?  Because they certainly don't seem to give a shit about other people's issues.  As I said with my issue with the sheriff and I some media will try it, That Fucking guy is NOT the default here, who gets the attention & sympathy.  It's the HUMAN lives lost, that for SOME reason were mostly of a race & sex, that get the attention & sympathy.  The human race is the default, and drives me bug nuts, when it's tried to be presented differently.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372378834784378883/

FOR FUUUUUUUCCCCCKKKK SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372382637067661312/


----------



## JayMysteri0

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372282705816223750/


----------



## JayMysteri0

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Thanks for responding to my points but I feel you are on a single minded crusade here, and you're welcome to do that.  But what I'm saying is while you may care only about one aspect others care about multiple or different aspects.  And I believe if you want real long lasting change then you need to acknowledge and address all of those, as overwhelming as it is or may seem.  The mindset of "at minimum you just don't do this" doesn't solve the layers of problems.  It's no different than people saying "They weren't slaves for over 100 years, so what's the problem?".



I should clarify that none of my ranting is directed at you personally because of your posts.

I just tend to focus on expressing my frustration and doing that solely.

Between all that's happened today and reading how the Japanese internment also had a land grab component, I'm just not thinking highly of people at the moment.



> The dangerous economics of racial resentment during World War II
> 
> 
> White farmers, threatened by Japanese Americans' success in agriculture, played a crucial role in convincing the US government to create internment camps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> qz.com


----------



## SuperMatt

JayMysteri0 said:


> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372282705816223750/



When a society embraces this system of values, what is the logical conclusion? Rule by violence instead of democracy. For some, the entire constitution is nothing except (half of) the 2nd amendment. They believe that is all that matters, their “god-given” right to have their own nuclear arsenal.

I’d love to live in a society where the right to vote was valued more than the right to extreme violence. But I don’t want to migrate to another country, so I’m staying here and maybe I can make a difference.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## fooferdoggie

well would we expect any less.








						Georgia Sheriff Spokesman Posted Racist COVID Shirts on Facebook
					

Jay Baker incited outrage on Wednesday when he said the 21-year-old who admitted to murdering eight people at Asian massage parlors was having “a really bad day.”



					www.thedailybeast.com
				



Georgia Sheriff Spokesman Posted Racist COVID Shirts on Facebook​


----------



## User.45

fooferdoggie said:


> well would we expect any less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Georgia Sheriff Spokesman Posted Racist COVID Shirts on Facebook
> 
> 
> Jay Baker incited outrage on Wednesday when he said the 21-year-old who admitted to murdering eight people at Asian massage parlors was having “a really bad day.”
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedailybeast.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Georgia Sheriff Spokesman Posted Racist COVID Shirts on Facebook​



I'm more upset about him not changing the status of this post from Public to Friends Only... It's like he either has no understanding of such posts being problematic for a public servant, OR he has but not smart enough to not shout it in the vast depths of the internetz.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

JayMysteri0 said:


> I should clarify that none of my ranting is directed at you personally because of your posts.
> 
> I just tend to focus on expressing my frustration and doing that solely.
> 
> Between all that's happened today and reading how the Japanese internment also had a land grab component, I'm just not thinking highly of people at the moment.




I understand where you are coming from but admit I was somewhat blind to it because I was coming at it from almost the opposite direction. I see outpouring of outrage and sympathy as highly predictable. An incident happens and there's 15 pages of outrage and “thoughts and prayers” posts. Another incident happens and you could copy and paste the 15 pages from the previous incident and it would make zero difference, literally or figuratively. I’m sure some people on here are offended I’m posting anything other than outrage or sympathy, as if this thread is the victims’ funeral and I’m at the podium going “Now let’s talk about why they deserved this.”

It’s like asking why these things keep happening while having zero actual interest in why these things keep happening. Fine. Then we’re no longer allowed to bring up police culture and systemic racism in police culture when discussing police shootings. Those are reasons. Reasons are justifications that shouldn’t be dignified with a mention, analysis, or counter actions. No reform needed. We’ll just tell police shooting black people is wrong. That’ll solve it.


----------



## Eric

fooferdoggie said:


> well would we expect any less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Georgia Sheriff Spokesman Posted Racist COVID Shirts on Facebook
> 
> 
> Jay Baker incited outrage on Wednesday when he said the 21-year-old who admitted to murdering eight people at Asian massage parlors was having “a really bad day.”
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedailybeast.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Georgia Sheriff Spokesman Posted Racist COVID Shirts on Facebook​



Now we know why the man refused to even acknowledge Asian people during his shooter sympathy speech.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> You aren't conceptually wrong, but you are contextually (IMHO). It obviously sounds like a mental health issue, but we seem to start caring more about mental health when it's a white person.




We do care about the mental health of minorities, but sadly only when it's the mental health of the minority killed by a cop after the fact.  Apparently "acting all crazy" is cause enough to use lethal force, even when they're notified of a mental health episode in advance of arriving.


----------



## Runs For Fun

WTF is wrong with people? 









						Facebook is removing any posts celebrating the Atlanta attack or the suspected shooter
					

The attack is a “violating event,” says Facebook




					www.theverge.com


----------



## Eric

RunsForFun said:


> WTF is wrong with people?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Facebook is removing any posts celebrating the Atlanta attack or the suspected shooter
> 
> 
> The attack is a “violating event,” says Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theverge.com



The guy has MAGA hate written all over him, it's only a matter of time before Fox News pundits start a gofundme for his bail.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> We do care about the mental health of minorities, but sadly only when it's the mental health of the minority killed by a cop after the fact.  Apparently "acting all crazy" is cause enough to use lethal force, even when they're notified of a mental health episode in advance of arriving.



My bias here is I see a stark difference in attitude when drug addiction hit the Black community predominantly => War on Drugs.
Then when it crept into  White neighborhoods and shady clinics => Opioid Epidemic.

There's quantifiably more motivation to fix mental health crises when it visibly hits Whites. Though, to quote a conversation with one of the top healthcare disparity experts of the USA: "Our White brothers and sisters in forgotten rural towns are screwed the most, they just don't know. They tend to think they are doing well, when in reality they are not".

Edit:
The difference really is we are generally desensitized to Blacks suffering but not to when Whites go through the same.


----------



## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> The guy has MAGA hate written all over him, it's only a matter of time before Fox News pundits start a gofundme for his bail.



Don't worry, we'll get this issue fixed by getting metal detectors installed in massage parlors.
(I suspect that crowdfunding campaign is coming indeed).


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> My bias here is I see a stark difference in attitude when drug addiction hit the Black community predominantly => War on Drugs.
> Then when it crept into  White neighborhoods and shady clinics => Opioid Epidemic.
> 
> There's quantifiably more motivation to fix mental health crises when it visibly hits Whites. Though, to quote a conversation with one of the top healthcare disparity experts of the USA: "Our White brothers and sisters in forgotten rural towns are screwed the most, they just don't know. They tend to think they are doing well, when in reality they are not".
> 
> Edit:
> The difference really is we are generally desensitized to Blacks suffering but not to when Whites go through the same.




Dave Chappelle has a good bit about the hypocrisy between the response to the crack epidemic in the black community and the response to the opioid epidemic in the white community. For some reason he’s finding it hard to have sympathy for the latter. There’s also a good (horrific) documentary on crack on Netflix. When there’s drug addiction in the black community lets make them criminals. When there’s drug addiction in the white community lets try to help them get off drugs. During the crack epidemic something like 2/3rds of crack users were white. I wasn’t even aware there was even 1 white crack user. In a several year period when black crack users were being thrown in jail left and right not one white user was prosecuted.

As bad as things are now, before the internet some truly horrific grand scale shit was happening off the radar because nobody had a radar like we all do now.

I believe reparations should be made in the form of big investment into black communities, opportunities, education, and businesses, not just handing out money to every black person like the covid checks. But you really don’t have to go all the way back to slavery to find justification. That may be the biggest historic bookmark but it certainly wasn’t the last.


----------



## SuperMatt

This white guy finds out the hard way that sometimes asian women in their 70s will fight back quite effectively if you punch them.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372241168663076864/


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

Well, looks like Fox News isn't letting this event or overall situation dethrone the top story of our lifetime, Governor Cuomo.  Such bravery in reporting.  So not a butthurt broken record vendetta.  If Governor Cuomo goes down than all the country's other problems will be solved and America will be great again.  Thanks Fox for your contribution.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Well, looks like Fox News isn't letting this event or overall situation dethrone the top story of our lifetime, Governor Cuomo.  Such bravery in reporting.  So not a butthurt broken record vendetta.  If Governor Cuomo goes down than all the country's other problems will be solved and America will be great again.  Thanks Fox for your contribution.



Fox News is so slanted it’s really unbelievable. They had a little square of space on their website carved out for this tragedy this morning (gone now, replaced with Biden saying “president Harris” on accident, which is clearly the MOST IMPORTANT STORY ON EARTH) but the stories within were 100% about how liberals are using this to make conservatives feel guilty or some other culture war garbage… the focus being “well the perp said he isn’t a racist so what’s the big deal?”


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> Fox News is so slanted it’s really unbelievable. They had a little square of space on their website carved out for this tragedy this morning (gone now, replaced with Biden saying “president Harris” on accident, which is clearly the MOST IMPORTANT STORY ON EARTH) but the stories within were 100% about how liberals are using this to make conservatives feel guilty or some other culture war garbage… the focus being “well the perp said he isn’t a racist so what’s the big deal?”




It's been almost universally agreed upon that the cop who reported the perpetrator's given reasons for the killings should have kept his mouth shut.   It's way too early to determine that.  Whether the cop's motive was being a racist protecting another racist or he believed it wasn't race-related, it doesn't matter.  The masses aren't going to buy "Nothing to see here" and turn around with their torches and pitchforks and go home.  Now it's just become a speculative talking point that both sides are going to insist they know the answer to.  That probably would have still happened, but the cop giving out way too much information way too early now made himself and the police part of the narrative that's just going to add to the outrage from both sides.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> It's been almost universally agreed upon that the cop who reported the perpetrator's given reasons for the killings should have kept his mouth shut.   It's way too early to determine that.  Whether the cop's motive was being a racist protecting another racist or he believed it wasn't race-related, it doesn't matter.  The masses aren't going to buy "Nothing to see here" and turn around with their torches and pitchforks and go home.  Now it's just become a speculative talking point that both sides are going to insist they know the answer to.  That probably would have still happened, but the cop giving out way too much information way too early now made himself and the police part of the narrative that's just going to add to the outrage from both sides.



It wasn’t just that. It was the apparent sympathy he showed for the murderer having a bad day.

Maybe the cops could have taken him to Burger King to cheer him up.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> It wasn’t just that. It was the apparent sympathy he showed for the murderer having a bad day.
> 
> Maybe the cops could have taken him to Burger King to cheer him up.




I admit I didn't watch the video and sometimes that can make a huge difference.  But it's still agreed by most that he shouldn't have shared any of that information.  There still needs to be, and will be, an investigation including social media activity.  I'm sure it's possible to be a closet racists, but usually there are signs to be found.  

Now I must go and edit all my posts in this thread.  Totally unrelated.    

On the fact that he passed by strip clubs and went straight to Asian massage parlors being seen as a reason to debunk his sex addiction motive, I'm just going to put it out there, racist or not, he's probably such a pussy and coward that he knew it was a lot more likely that there would be males at the strip clubs that would either beat the shit out of him or shoot back.  At minimum there probably aren't bouncers at massage parlors.  

On the general topic, and I'm not in any way looking for justification here, but I really want to know what is going on in the head of somebody who purposely targets and attacks the elderly of a certain race.  There seems to be an epidemic of that specific hate crime towards Asians, and I don't think I've ever heard that happening to other minority groups.


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> On the general topic, and I'm not in any way looking for justification here, but I really want to know what is going on in the head of somebody who purposely targets and attacks the elderly of a certain race. There seems to be an epidemic of that specific hate crime towards Asians, and I don't think I've ever heard that happening to other minority groups.



People that wouldn’t be caught dead buying Goya brand foods suddenly went out and bought them because of Trump. He is the focus of a cult of personality. When he calls it the China flu, and blames Asians for the virus, it has an effect. It is my belief that we are seeing that effect. I consider other Republicans to be complicit for refusing to call out such rhetoric (or repeat it in some cases). I also blame right-wing media sources for amplifying the rhetoric.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> People that wouldn’t be caught dead buying Goya brand foods suddenly went out and bought them because of Trump. He is the focus of a cult of personality. When he calls it the China flu, and blames Asians for the virus, it has an effect. It is my belief that we are seeing that effect. I consider other Republicans to be complicit for refusing to call out such rhetoric (or repeat it in some cases). I also blame right-wing media sources for amplifying the rhetoric.




I agree but I'm talking about the specific hate crime action.  I didn't hear about the elderly getting targeted when he was busy demonizing hispanics, or even in our long history of violence against black people.  

Like I said about the potential reason for avoiding strip clubs, these people aren't just racists.  They are complete cowards.  Maybe the reason is Trump and rightwing media ramped up their racist hate but their bravery (poor choice of words, but couldn't think of anything else) didn't catch up to that same level.  So they just target assumed weak or defenseless people.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> This white guy finds out the hard way that sometimes asian women in their 70s will fight back quite effectively if you punch them.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1372241168663076864/



Good for her, I know it’s inappropriate but I chuckled the moment i saw the guy on the gurney. Karma is an old lady with a stick.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Dave Chappelle has a good bit about the hypocrisy between the response to the crack epidemic in the black community and the response to the opioid epidemic in the white community. For some reason he’s finding it hard to have sympathy for the latter. There’s also a good (horrific) documentary on crack on Netflix. When there’s drug addiction in the black community lets make them criminals. When there’s drug addiction in the white community lets try to help them get off drugs. During the crack epidemic something like 2/3rds of crack users were white. I wasn’t even aware there was even 1 white crack user. In a several year period when black crack users were being thrown in jail left and right not one white user was prosecuted.
> 
> As bad as things are now, before the internet some truly horrific grand scale shit was happening off the radar because nobody had a radar like we all do now.
> 
> I believe reparations should be made in the form of big investment into black communities, opportunities, education, and businesses, not just handing out money to every black person like the covid checks. But you really don’t have to go all the way back to slavery to find justification. That may be the biggest historic bookmark but it certainly wasn’t the last.



Proportions matter though, that's still about 3x overrepresentation of Blacks in the crack epidemic. This is important. Also I'll just drop this here:





There's so much data to show that spending on secondary education is much much much better investment in crime prevention than buying military toys for the police. Also, this is why this country is doomed.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> Proportions matter though, that's still about 3x overrepresentation of Blacks in the crack epidemic. This is important. Also I'll just drop this here:
> 
> View attachment 4078
> 
> There's so much data to show that spending on secondary education is much much much better investment in crime prevention than buying military toys for the police. Also, this is why this country is doomed.





I know this is a tired trope, but it's all by design.  One of my biggest problems with the right voter base, and especially the far right, is that we probably have more in common than we don't, but while they claim we shouldn't trust the government or the "fake" news media they absulutely refuse the solidarity that we've all been played.  The left wants action to benefit everybody, including "the deplorables".  The right wants action that only benefits the right.  To me that is the defining difference.


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I know this is a tired trope, but it's all by design.  One of my biggest problems with the right voter base, and especially the far right, is that we probably have more in common than we don't, but while they claim we shouldn't trust the government or the "fake" news media they absulutely refuse the solidarity that we've all been played.  The left wants action to benefit everybody, including "the deplorables".  The right wants action that only benefits the right.  To me that is the defining difference.



The Right thinks they can push though agendas without compromise, look at when they had control, _whatever we can push through we will, whatever standard we can flush and get away with, we will. _And while as a result the Democrats respond in kind as pushback to the more asinine Right extremes after they regained control, compromise is still a part of thei vocabulary, while on the Right, it‘s still lines in the sand and zero compromise rhetoric. As they currently exist the GOP is unsuitable to function in a democracy.


----------



## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I know this is a tired trope, but it's all by design.  One of my biggest problems with the right voter base, and especially the far right, is that we probably have more in common than we don't, but while they claim we shouldn't trust the government or the "fake" news media they absulutely refuse the solidarity that we've all been played.  The left wants action to benefit everybody, including "the deplorables".  The right wants action that only benefits the right.  To me that is the defining difference.



Lefties think we should help everybody with a special focus on empowering marginalized groups. The extreme of this is neglect of groups that mayappear non-marginalized (see rust belt Whites). Rightis think we should empower people who DESERVE it. The extreme of this is empowerment of those around whom the system is already built. If reasonably applied (i.e. shaving off the extremes), both ideologies could work in certain situations. However when the USA is a #1 country for the rich and a 3rd world county for the poor, at least to me, it's clear which idea system is more important to apply.



Huntn said:


> The Right thinks they can push though agendas without compromise, look at when they had control, _whatever we can push through we will, whatever standard we can flush and get away with, we will. _And while as a result the Democrats respond in kind as pushback to the more asinine Right extremes after they regained control, compromise is still a part of thei vocabulary, while on the Right, it‘s still lines in the sand and zero compromise rhetoric. As they currently exist the GOP is unsuitable to function in a democracy.



To be analytical about this what I see is the economy consistently runs better under Dem admins, and I suspect there are a few reaasons for this:
1) Dems are actually held accountable by their constituents more than Reps, meaning, there's more political consequence to poor actions
2) A fiscally conservative opposition may be beneficial to ground things. On the other hand zero compromise attitudes make a group stupider not smarter ajnd we all lose over this hyperpartisan bullshit. And as suggested in another thread, we know who benefits from this...


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

P_X said:


> 1) Dems are actually held accountable by their constituents more than Reps, meaning, there's more political consequence to poor actions




This is very true, but you wouldn’t know from the way the right tells it. There’s currently a viable effort to recall CA Democrat Mayor Gavin Newsom. For the longest time I thought the effort was entirely based on an incident of being a mask mandate hypocrite and people upset about ongoing business closures due to covid, but I recently discovered the other reasons like high taxes, an affordable housing and homeless crisis, and failing infrastructure that a bullet train isn’t going to solve. I wasn’t blind to those things, but the people behind the recall weren’t really siting those reasons until recently. Those are all legit issues but the way the right tells it is Californians love those things. I don’t know anybody who said “I guess Texans love long term power outages in below freezing temperatures”. There was also a successful recall of CA Democrat Governor Gray Davis in 2003, long before a Progressive element was a thing.  

The current GOP selling tactic in it’s entirety seems to be you’ll have to tolerate my bullshit because a Democrat would be a lot worse. When we were having draught, power, and forest fire crisis we weren’t trying to somehow connect it to something going on in Texas. That kind of dot connecting boggles my mind, but “But California” seems to be a staple of GOP deflection.


----------



## SuperMatt

I read an article in The NY Times today about the argument “Racism or Sex Addiction” (first put forward by a stereotypical Georgia police chief) as the reason for these killings. It’s not one or the other - they are linked.

Some quotes that stuck out to me (also in case you don’t have a subscription and get ‘paywalled’)



> That suggestion was met with incredulity by many Asian-American women, for whom racism and sexism have always been inextricably intertwined. For them, racism often takes the form of unwanted sexual come-ons, and sexual harassment is often overtly racist.





> “People on here literally debating if this was a misogynistic attack against women or a racist attack against Asians,” Jenn Fang, the founder of a long-running Asian-American feminist blog, Reappropriate, wrote in a scathing Twitter thread. “What if — wait for it — it was both.”





> Sung Yeon Choimorrow, the executive director of the National Asian Pacific American Women’s Forum, an advocacy group, said that when she first came to the United States to attend college in 2000, she was “stunned, dumbfounded, horrified” by the way she was frequently approached by male strangers who professed to love Korean women.
> 
> “It is the ‘Me so horny, I love you long time,’ in like weird accents, and ‘Oh, are you Korean? I love Korea,’” she said, adding that she began to wonder if American men were crazy. They would “go into this whole thing about how they served in the military in Korea and how they had this amazing Korean girlfriend that was just like me. And will I be their girlfriend?”












						How Racism and Sexism Intertwine to Torment Asian-American Women (Published 2021)
					

Many viewed the shooting rampage in Atlanta that left eight people dead as the culmination of a racialized misogyny that they say has long been directed at them.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I read an article in The NY Times today about the argument “Racism or Sex Addiction” (first put forward by a stereotypical Georgia police chief) as the reason for these killings. It’s not one or the other - they are linked.
> 
> Some quotes that stuck out to me (also in case you don’t have a subscription and get ‘paywalled’)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Racism and Sexism Intertwine to Torment Asian-American Women (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> Many viewed the shooting rampage in Atlanta that left eight people dead as the culmination of a racialized misogyny that they say has long been directed at them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



These women are spot on with those quotes.


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> These women are spot on with those quotes.



One other thing I forgot to quote was the idea that Asian women are portrayed as being weak and submissive in American pop culture. Therefore, cowardly abusers seem more likely to pick them as victims...


> Hate crimes against Asian women are almost certainly undercounted, and Ms. Zia said one reason is that those with a sexual dimension tend to be classified as sex offenses, in effect erasing the racial aspect. Stereotypes of Asian women as submissive may embolden aggressors, she said. “We’re seen as vulnerable,” she said. “You know — the object that won’t fight back.”


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> I read an article in The NY Times today about the argument “Racism or Sex Addiction” (first put forward by a stereotypical Georgia police chief) as the reason for these killings. It’s not one or the other - they are linked.
> 
> Some quotes that stuck out to me (also in case you don’t have a subscription and get ‘paywalled’)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Racism and Sexism Intertwine to Torment Asian-American Women (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> Many viewed the shooting rampage in Atlanta that left eight people dead as the culmination of a racialized misogyny that they say has long been directed at them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com




That last quoted part is interesting. Some years back I dated a Japanese Hawaiian girl for about 6 months. We would have debates about gender stereotypes or issues but race or cultural differences never came up. At the risk of sounding shallow she definitely looked Asian. Just saying it wasn’t a Native American Elizabeth Warren situation where race differences wouldn’t be obvious. Nobody is going to attack Warren because they hate Native Americans. I don’t have an “Asian fetish” but I’m well aware that it exists. I always thought of it as a preference thing and didn’t consider how it could include hurtful or insensitive behavior.


----------



## SuperMatt

The thing is, SOME people don’t want to call something a hate crime or racially motivated unless they’ve got the killer, on tape, yelling “I shot these people because I do not like (insert slur here) and they all should die!” That is because they don’t want to own up to their own biases, or our biases as a nation and how those biases can lead to outcomes such as this shooting.

That being said, if a killer said they were targeting white people, those same people would suddenly lose their allergy to calling things hate crimes.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> One other thing I forgot to quote was the idea that Asian women are portrayed as being weak and submissive in American pop culture. Therefore, cowardly abusers seem more likely to pick them as victims...



She's probably also right about this but from a legal perspective it's sounds like something difficult to prove. People tend  to dehumanize those easier they perceive as out-of-group, and this applies to Asian women as well. They are also considered generally very attractive by American culture*. There's also a "modesty trap" my 1st gen East Asian friends tell me about. American culture has a consistent difficulty dealing with modest/humble people (based on my experience living in the east and west coast and midwest).



*(disclaimer #1 data based on OK cupid, disclaimer #2 Americans tend to overemphasize certain physical characteristics to concoct this absolutist concept of attractiveness which is essentially the reflection of college students' desires, like a great deal of psychology research is).
This also to some extent extends to the fetish @Chew Toy McCoy mentions.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> The thing is, SOME people don’t want to call something a hate crime or racially motivated unless they’ve got the killer, on tape, yelling “I shot these people because I do not like (insert slur here) and they all should die!” That is because they don’t want to own up to their own biases, or our biases as a nation and how those biases can lead to outcomes such as this shooting.
> 
> That being said, if a killer said they were targeting white people, those same people would suddenly lose their allergy to calling things hate crimes.




But the pendulum swings both ways. The other side wants to label any violent crime that involves different races a hate crime, especially if the perpetrator is white. That’s their starting point and then they want definitive proof that it wasn’t.

Interestingly the news I’ve been reading seems to go out of their way to not mention the race of the perpetrators and a lot of times there isn’t a picture. So you really don’t know. Some probably feel that doesn’t matter, but I think there could be some helpful information in there. For example during the Compton riots you had the Korean community being attacked because there was a history of racism from local Korean business owners. So could that lead to an “and here’s another reason” predisposition to attacks on Asians from the black community?


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> But the pendulum swings both ways. The other side wants to label any violent crime that involves different races a hate crime, especially if the perpetrator is white. That’s their starting point and then they want definitive proof that it wasn’t.



Perhaps you could provide some examples of this? It is my recollection that the “hate crime” thing usually doesn’t come into the conversation all that often unless it’s multiple people of the same ethnic or religious group, attacked by somebody of another ethnic/religious group. It could be that I just usually don’t notice it, or that it’s people on the liberal side of things who are TV or radio personalities that I don’t listen to.

My experience from the other point of view has been that when the Dylan Roof killing occurred, I saw SOME Republicans saying it wasn’t a hate crime because, well, the guy was just a mental case. So it is unsurprising to me that those same folks would be whining that “liberals call everything a hate crime.” Maybe they do, but I don’t recall it.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Perhaps you could provide some examples of this? It is my recollection that the “hate crime” thing usually doesn’t come into the conversation all that often unless it’s multiple people of the same ethnic or religious group, attacked by somebody of another ethnic/religious group. It could be that I just usually don’t notice it, or that it’s people on the liberal side of things who are TV or radio personalities that I don’t listen to.
> 
> My experience from the other point of view has been that when the Dylan Roof killing occurred, I saw SOME Republicans saying it wasn’t a hate crime because, well, the guy was just a mental case. So it is unsurprising to me that those same folks would be whining that “liberals call everything a hate crime.” Maybe they do, but I don’t recall it.



The whole thing is really absurd. This is clearly and admittedly a crime against adult women of all ages. Law based on precedent means we should be very careful about labeling things certain ways, and I think that's @Chew Toy McCoy's point. The counterpoint is, if your perpetrator shoots 9 people, 7 of which women, 6 of east asian descent, and people start defending their heinous actions as "coincidentally targeting" a very specific group, that would open a loophole for terrorists to use this defense to evade hate crime charges. And I can foresee such trend emerging if this defense flies, regardless of the underlying evidence ends up fully corroborating this notion or not.

On our end, consistency is important. I feel if a Muslim commits a crime like this, it is terrorism until proven otherwise in the public eye; except when it's a white person then it is asystematic unless proven otherwise...


----------



## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> The whole thing is really absurd. This is clearly and admittedly a crime against adult women of all ages. Law based on precedent means we should be very careful about labeling things certain ways, and I think that's @Chew Toy McCoy's point. The counterpoint is, if your perpetrator shoots 9 people, 7 of which women, 6 of east asian descent, and people start defending their heinous actions as "coincidentally targeting" a very specific group, that would open a loophole for terrorists to use this defense to evade hate crime charges. And I can foresee such trend emerging if this defense flies, regardless of the underlying evidence ends up fully corroborating this notion or not.
> 
> On our end, consistency is important. I feel if a Muslim commits a crime like this, it is terrorism until proven otherwise in the public eye; except when it's a white person then it is asystematic unless proven otherwise...



Asians make up only 3.9% of the population in Georgia. This is clearly not a random killing.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> Asians make up only 3.9% of the population in Georgia. This is clearly not a random killing.



Without a doubt it was a targeted murder spree and it should exactly be treated as such.

My point is that If this is not classified as a hate crime (and here I'm not arguing whether it is or not one in reality), there will be people who will try to use this defense to target groups of people and claim the motive to be the location where certain activities take place. Like a basketball court "incidentally" frequented by black kids, or a restaurant that happens to make ethnic food, etc.

One fucked up thing about Georgia is the easier access to firearms than to voting. I actually took the time to look up all the countries with voter registration requirements AND unlicensed gun purchases...Besides the USA, only one out of 23 such countries allow licenseless gun purchase (Switzerland).


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> Perhaps you could provide some examples of this? It is my recollection that the “hate crime” thing usually doesn’t come into the conversation all that often unless it’s multiple people of the same ethnic or religious group, attacked by somebody of another ethnic/religious group. It could be that I just usually don’t notice it, or that it’s people on the liberal side of things who are TV or radio personalities that I don’t listen to.
> 
> My experience from the other point of view has been that when the Dylan Roof killing occurred, I saw SOME Republicans saying it wasn’t a hate crime because, well, the guy was just a mental case. So it is unsurprising to me that those same folks would be whining that “liberals call everything a hate crime.” Maybe they do, but I don’t recall it.



First let me say I'm not saying this incident definitively wasn't a crime against Asians, but clearly there are a lot of other potential issues involved here and I'm not going to repeat myself from a previous post, but the entire focus on the internet and the media is on the Asian aspect.  It's like if you can't pick a side on that then there's no more discussion to be had.

To put it another way, let's say all other possible related issues are true.  Do you think if he didn't have mental issues, wasn't a sex addicted, and didn't have that conflict with his highly religious beliefs he would have done it anyway?


----------



## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> First let me say I'm not saying this incident definitively wasn't a crime against Asians, but clearly there are a lot of other potential issues involved here and I'm not going to repeat myself from a previous post, but the entire focus on the internet and the media is on the Asian aspect.  It's like if you can't pick a side on that then there's no more discussion to be had.
> 
> To put it another way, let's say all other possible related issues are true.  Do you think if he didn't have mental issues, wasn't a sex addicted, and didn't have that conflict with his highly religious beliefs he would have done it anyway?



There have been thousands of attacks on Asian people since Trump’s anti-Asian remarks. It’s a serious problem. This attack is one of many, and just like the murder of George Floyd was an infamous incident that brought attention to the problem of police brutality, this attack has brought attention to the racist attacks on Asian people.

I’ve noticed that the folks most vocal about this not being racism are the same folks who don’t want mass shootings to be about guns, or want to deny systemic racism exists… etc. Just like every time there is a mass shooting by a white person, they are ALWAYS just a lone wolf with mental issues. Certainly the racist rhetoric a mentally unstable person hears vomiting forth from the gaping maws of conservative radio hate-mongers has NOTHING to do with why these people commit such acts.

To answer your question, most non-crazy people don’t ever commit murders. But it is the non-crazy people from this guy’s community and church who instilled the ideas in him that led to his choice of asian women, who HE considered as a symbol of his evil sexual desires… natural desires that the church taught him are evil. And no doubt such a conservative church is chock-full of people parroting Trump’s rhetoric every chance they get.

Yes, he will serve the time for his crime, but I believe the blatant racism of Trump being fully embraced and accepted by the white evangelical church in America is the fuel for these types of fires. There are a thousand “normal” people who say something racist to an Asian person, or make the slanted eyes gesture, or just do something dick-ish to a person just because they’re Asian… but then you get the unhinged person surrounded by those types who loses his mind and does something far worse based on that same racism.


----------



## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> There have been thousands of attacks on Asian people since Trump’s anti-Asian remarks. It’s a serious problem. This attack is one of many, and just like the murder of George Floyd was an infamous incident that brought attention to the problem of police brutality, this attack has brought attention to the racist attacks on Asian people.
> 
> I’ve noticed that the folks most vocal about this not being racism are the same folks who don’t want mass shootings to be about guns, or want to deny systemic racism exists… etc. Just like every time there is a mass shooting by a white person, they are ALWAYS just a lone wolf with mental issues. Certainly the racist rhetoric a mentally unstable person hears vomiting forth from the gaping maws of conservative radio hate-mongers has NOTHING to do with why these people commit such acts.
> 
> To answer your question, most non-crazy people don’t ever commit murders. But it is the non-crazy people from this guy’s community and church who instilled the ideas in him that led to his choice of asian women, who HE considered as a symbol of his evil sexual desires… natural desires that the church taught him are evil. And no doubt such a conservative church is chock-full of people parroting Trump’s rhetoric every chance they get.
> 
> Yes, he will serve the time for his crime, but I believe the blatant racism of Trump being fully embraced and accepted by the white evangelical church in America is the fuel for these types of fires. There are a thousand “normal” people who say something racist to an Asian person, or make the slanted eyes gesture, or just do something dick-ish to a person just because they’re Asian… but then you get the unhinged person surrounded by those types who loses his mind and does something far worse based on that same racism.











						The American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) from the American Public Health Association (APHA) publications
					

American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) from the American Public Health Association (APHA)



					ajph.aphapublications.org
				




Reddit covered some of the evidence on Trump's influence on anti-asian sentiments. 


> *Objectives*. To examine the extent to which the phrases, “COVID-19” and “Chinese virus” were associated with anti-Asian sentiments.
> *Methods*. Data were collected from Twitter’s Application Programming Interface, which included the hashtags “#covid19” or “#chinesevirus.” We analyzed tweets from March 9 to 23, 2020, corresponding to the week before and the week after President Donald J. Trump’s tweet with the phrase, “Chinese Virus.” Our analysis focused on 1 273 141 hashtags.
> *Results*. One fifth (19.7%) of the 495 289 hashtags with #covid19 showed anti-Asian sentiment, compared with half (50.4%) of the 777 852 hashtags with #chinesevirus. When comparing the week before March 16, 2020, to the week after, there was a significantly greater increase in anti-Asian hashtags associated with #chinesevirus compared with #covid19 (P < .001).
> *Conclusions*. Our data provide new empirical evidence supporting recommendations to use the less- stigmatizing term “COVID-19,” instead of “Chinese virus.” (Am J Public Health. Published online ahead of print March 18, 2021:e1–e9. https://doi.org/10.2105/AJPH.2021.306154)




Today I did something unsusual: sorted by controversial. One of the recurring controversial statements went along the lines of "the MSM narrative is that Trump's responsible for the anti-Asian violence, but it's predominantly committed by Blacks". Again these people manage to pack so many fallacies in so few words it's impressive. The most important assumption is that Trump's influence is limited to his core voter base. In reality, his toxicity had a much wider reach thanks to the presidency & Twitter. 

Some tried to discredit the study by trying to suggest hashtags critical of the CCP to be counted towards anti-asian hashtags... That isn't true either, but tags like chinesecommiepigsmustpay were considered anti-asian. I mean these guys never read the studies and comment out of their asses with an assumption that science and academia have an anticonservative bias.  Bless their hearts.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

SuperMatt said:


> There have been thousands of attacks on Asian people since Trump’s anti-Asian remarks. It’s a serious problem. This attack is one of many, and just like the murder of George Floyd was an infamous incident that brought attention to the problem of police brutality, this attack has brought attention to the racist attacks on Asian people.
> 
> I’ve noticed that the folks most vocal about this not being racism are the same folks who don’t want mass shootings to be about guns, or want to deny systemic racism exists… etc. Just like every time there is a mass shooting by a white person, they are ALWAYS just a lone wolf with mental issues. Certainly the racist rhetoric a mentally unstable person hears vomiting forth from the gaping maws of conservative radio hate-mongers has NOTHING to do with why these people commit such acts.
> 
> To answer your question, most non-crazy people don’t ever commit murders. But it is the non-crazy people from this guy’s community and church who instilled the ideas in him that led to his choice of asian women, who HE considered as a symbol of his evil sexual desires… natural desires that the church taught him are evil. And no doubt such a conservative church is chock-full of people parroting Trump’s rhetoric every chance they get.
> 
> Yes, he will serve the time for his crime, but I believe the blatant racism of Trump being fully embraced and accepted by the white evangelical church in America is the fuel for these types of fires. There are a thousand “normal” people who say something racist to an Asian person, or make the slanted eyes gesture, or just do something dick-ish to a person just because they’re Asian… but then you get the unhinged person surrounded by those types who loses his mind and does something far worse based on that same racism.




There's a school of thought, some shared in this thread, that says everything you just said doesn't matter.  If the goal is to get the specific perpetrators punished, don't worry, they will be.  But the whole "there's never a reason" attitude completely blows off everything you just said.  So I guess for some we're just supposed to ignore all the background and indoctrination and only get outraged when a resulting action takes place.  I don't see what the far reaching and long lasting solution is with that attitude, not saying that is the attitude you have.


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## SuperMatt

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> There's a school of thought, some shared in this thread, that says everything you just said doesn't matter.  If the goal is to get the specific perpetrators punished, don't worry, they will be.  But the whole "there's never a reason" attitude completely blows off everything you just said.  So I guess for some we're just supposed to ignore all the background and indoctrination and only get outraged when a resulting action takes place.  I don't see what the far reaching and long lasting solution is with that attitude, not saying that is the attitude you have.



Kids are taught racism, anti-semitism, etc… they don’t come by it naturally. Yes, this murderer needs to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But, if we don’t attack the root causes of such hate crimes, they will occur more frequently.


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## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> The American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) from the American Public Health Association (APHA) publications
> 
> 
> American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) from the American Public Health Association (APHA)
> 
> 
> 
> ajph.aphapublications.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reddit covered some of the evidence on Trump's influence on anti-asian sentiments.
> 
> 
> Today I did something unsusual: sorted by controversial. One of the recurring controversial statements went along the lines of "the MSM narrative is that Trump's responsible for the anti-Asian violence, but it's predominantly committed by Blacks". Again these people manage to pack so many fallacies in so few words it's impressive. The most important assumption is that Trump's influence is limited to his core voter base. In reality, his toxicity had a much wider reach thanks to the presidency & Twitter.
> 
> Some tried to discredit the study by trying to suggest hashtags critical of the CCP to be counted towards anti-asian hashtags... That isn't true either, but tags like chinesecommiepigsmustpay were considered anti-asian. I mean these guys never read the studies and comment out of their asses with an assumption that science and academia have an anticonservative bias.  Bless their hearts.



I am seeing that exact narrative on conservative Twitter threads and message boards. They wet themselves whenever they see a black person hurt an Asian person. To them, it’s proof that this whole white supremacy thing is an MSM witch hunt, because clearly the problem is between blacks and Asians. White people have nothing to do with it, and this killer in Georgia is a lone wolf who is a few cards short of a full deck. How convenient to that worldview - they can absolve themselves of anti-asian racism and simultaneously paint black people as savages. What a bunch of pukes they are.


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## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I am seeing that exact narrative on conservative Twitter threads and message boards. They wet themselves whenever they see a black person hurt an Asian person. To them, it’s proof that this whole white supremacy thing is an MSM witch hunt, because clearly the problem is between blacks and Asians. White people have nothing to do with it, and this killer in Georgia is a lone wolf who is a few cards short of a full deck. How convenient to that worldview - they can absolve themselves of anti-asian racism and simultaneously paint black people as savages. What a bunch of pukes they are.



My annoyance is that some of these people are THE narrative pushers. For example someone brought up violent crime proportion committed by Blacks along with the usual "just look up the FBI's related database" in these same threads.  Again if you look at it you can see a bunch of things, like that race/ethnicity is missing for at least 30% of the data. If the distribution of the missing data is non-random, the actual proportions could be very skewed in either direction. So relying on this data as an irrefutable fact is frustrating... "Interestingly" they have little issue embracing uncertainty when it comes to Trump's first impeachment, but not when it comes to stats like this


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## SuperMatt

P_X said:


> My annoyance is that some of these people are THE narrative pushers. For example someone brought up violent crime proportion committed by Blacks along with the usual "just look up the FBI's related database" in these same threads.  Again if you look at it you can see a bunch of things, like that race/ethnicity is missing for at least 30% of the data. If the distribution of the missing data is non-random, the actual proportions could be very skewed in either direction. So relying on this data as an irrefutable fact is frustrating... "Interestingly" they have little issue embracing uncertainty when it comes to Trump's first impeachment, but not when it comes to stats like this



I’ve seen the charts too… a lot of the data is for arrests… and we already know the police are biased in who they arrest…


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## User.45

SuperMatt said:


> I’ve seen the charts too… a lot of the data is for arrests… and we already know the police are biased in who they arrest…



To me one of the most telling things is the NYPD complaint records showing over representation of substantiated complaints from Blacks compared to Whites even if I adjust for arrest rates...


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## SuperMatt

Georgia cops detained the husband of a woman who was killed in the attack for 4 hours and treated him roughly. Not-so-coincidentally, he is Mexican. They knew he was the husband and not the killer.









						After Spa Attacks, Officers Handcuffed Victim’s Anguished Husband for Four Hours (Published 2021)
					

In an interview with a Spanish-language news outlet, Mario González described his confusion and frustration as sheriff’s deputies detained him after the shooting.




					www.nytimes.com
				




I heard an older white woman at the grocery store today loudly tell her cashier (who is Asian) “Don’t go to Georgia!"


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## JayMysteri0

So, can anyone tell the rest of the class what's / who's missing here?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1373661893424975880/


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## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> So, can anyone tell the rest of the class what's / who's missing here?
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1373661893424975880/



ouch


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## thekev

P_X said:


> The whole thing is really absurd. This is clearly and admittedly a crime against adult women of all ages. *Law based on precedent means we should be very careful about labeling things certain ways,* and I think that's @Chew Toy McCoy's point. The counterpoint is, if your perpetrator shoots 9 people, 7 of which women, 6 of east asian descent, and people start defending their heinous actions as "coincidentally targeting" a very specific group, that would open a loophole for terrorists to use this defense to evade hate crime charges. And I can foresee such trend emerging if this defense flies, regardless of the underlying evidence ends up fully corroborating this notion or not.
> 
> On our end, consistency is important. I feel if a Muslim commits a crime like this, it is terrorism until proven otherwise in the public eye; except when it's a white person then it is asystematic unless proven otherwise...




It might work out better if these things were considered mainly for crime statistics rather than for prosecutorial and sentencing purposes. Otherwise, I can't imagine anyone solving reporting problems like what is suggested here. The overall female population in the US is much greater than the Asian American female population. Attempts to reclassify sex crimes would likely inspire a huge backlash. If you primarily require these things for reporting crime statistics, where co-occurrence is recordable, you don't lose this descriptiveness, in spite of an inherently weaker crime taxonomy.



> Hate crimes against Asian women are almost certainly undercounted, and Ms. Zia said one reason is that those with a sexual dimension tend to be classified as sex offenses, in effect erasing the racial aspect. Stereotypes of Asian women as submissive may embolden aggressors, she said. “We’re seen as vulnerable,” she said. “You know — the object that won’t fight back.”






P_X said:


> ouch




I had to use the thread there to name some of these people. Personally, I wouldn't focus too much on the race of the reporters. I would focus on whether they actually do significant work with any of these communities or have over the course of their careers. That to me would make a bigger difference.

Chung is interesting on this and falls into both groups. It wasn't her area for the majority of her career, but I seem to recall her taking an interest in it in more recent years (past decade or two).









						Connie Chung: The media is miserably late covering anti-Asian violence
					

Media outlets are ramping up their coverage of anti-Asian violence following last week's Atlanta shootings, but many Asian-American journalists feel the issue has been ignored for far too long.




					www.cnn.com


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## Huntn

P_X said:


> ouch



Maybe they did not have on on retainer?


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## JayMysteri0

It's always the victim being the better human
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1374472491020652544/
MUCH BETTER


----------



## Eric

They got this one, IMO hit him with a hate crime as well. This shit needs to stop, the attack was brutal and senseless.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1377205706319872001/

The attack for reference

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1376864961830486019/


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## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> They got this one, IMO hit him with a hate crime as well. This shit needs to stop, the attack was brutal and senseless.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1377205706319872001/
> 
> The attack for reference
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1376864961830486019/



Lock him up, throw away the key. This video made me angry twice. First, this bastard sucker punching a woman, then secondly by people nonchalantly watching? WTF????? If anything that makes me more pissed. Bad people exist, you cant fix that. A community enabling shit like this while being nonchalant about this a much greater problem. 

And again, I'm sad for the lady who got pummeled...I've treated postconcussive syndrome (not that we know how to treat it well). It's miserable. I have had very very smart friends who had concussions and their careers got derailed afterwards, and they've told me their cognition/motivation haven't been the same since their accidents. 

Absolutely fuck that guy.


----------



## User.168

.


----------



## Eric

P_X said:


> Lock him up, throw away the key. This video made me angry twice. First, this bastard sucker punching a woman, *then secondly by people nonchalantly watching? WTF?????* If anything that makes me more pissed. Bad people exist, you cant fix that. A community enabling shit like this while being nonchalant about this a much greater problem.
> 
> And again, I'm sad for the lady who got pummeled...I've treated postconcussive syndrome (not that we know how to treat it well). It's miserable. I have had very very smart friends who had concussions and their careers got derailed afterwards, and they've told me their cognition/motivation haven't been the same since their accidents.
> 
> Absolutely fuck that guy.



It all happened so fast but that was absolutely unconscionable was they closed the door on her afterwards, it sounds like they're being held accountable though, as they should. This just makes you sad for humanity in general.


----------



## SuperMatt

theSeb said:


> Was this a warning or a threat?



I think the old white lady was trying to be nice, but it felt a bit cringe-inducing to me.


----------



## SuperMatt

ericgtr12 said:


> It all happened so fast but that was absolutely unconscionable was they closed the door on her afterwards, it sounds like they're being held accountable though, as they should. This just makes you sad for humanity in general.



Sometimes things like that happen so fast you don’t know how to respond. I saw an episode where a homeless person starting yelling epithets at an asian woman the other day. It was completely out of left field and by the time I got over the shock of it, the woman had already moved on. I spoke my piece to the homeless person after I got over the shock. But, I felt like I could have reacted more quickly to do something. Nobody was physically hurt, but those things leave an impact in your mind.


----------



## Eric

SuperMatt said:


> Sometimes things like that happen so fast you don’t know how to respond. I saw an episode where a homeless person starting yelling epithets at an asian woman the other day. It was completely out of left field and by the time I got over the shock of it, the woman had already moved on. I spoke my piece to the homeless person after I got over the shock. But, I felt like I could have reacted more quickly to do something. Nobody was physically hurt, but those things leave an impact in your mind.



Good for you for at least trying. Yeah, I don't know that they had time to react but closing the door on her afterwards is total BS, she was obviously shocked and those people turned their back on her.


----------



## Eric

More on this guy, just wow. This is about more than just this case, how was a killer let out of jail like this? We see it so often where they kill again, maybe they should stop putting petty drug offenders in and keep this sick bastards for a little longer.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1377169208513949700/


----------



## SuperMatt

ericgtr12 said:


> More on this guy, just wow. This is about more than just this case, how was a killer let out of jail like this? We see it so often where they kill again, maybe they should stop putting petty drug offenders in and keep this sick bastards for a little longer.
> 
> https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1377169208513949700/



We’ve got people still in jail on life sentences for single drug possession charges, and this guy is on the street. The war on drugs was probably the worst set of policies during our lifetimes. The system is seriously screwed up still.


----------



## Huntn

SuperMatt said:


> We’ve got people still in jail on life sentences for single drug possession charges, and this guy is on the street. The war on drugs was probably the worst set of policies during our lifetimes. The system is seriously screwed up still.



Compounded for African Americans who the courts love making examples of.  The War on Drugs became a war on ourselves as millions of drug users/addicts had their lives destroyed by being labeled felons and it has cost our society billions. Hell, it would have been cheaper to support these peoples’ addictions.


----------



## User.45

Huntn said:


> Compounded for African Americans who the courts love making examples of.  The War on Drugs became a war on ourselves as millions of drug users/addicts had their lives destroyed by being labeled felons and it has cost our society billions. Hell, it would have been cheaper to support these peoples’ addictions.





SuperMatt said:


> We’ve got people still in jail on life sentences for single drug possession charges, and this guy is on the street. The war on drugs was probably the worst set of policies during our lifetimes. The system is seriously screwed up still.




This sentiment summarized in a single figure:


----------



## Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> I believe it.
> 
> At the risk of sounding like I'm marginalizing the situation, but there has been a huge influx of Asian immigration over the last decade.  The more minorities that roll into town, the more some people aren't going to be happy about it.  Those are just facts and I don't believe that is unique to the US.



Yeah, the Asian work ethic is a real threat to the home grown sloths...


----------



## Huntn

Alli said:


> It will be interesting to find out his rationale for the shootings. When I first heard the news I thought it sounded like mob activity. Why only massage parlors? Why not Asian grocery stores?



Is this the guy with  the sex addiction or was that someone else?


----------



## Alli

Huntn said:


> Is this the guy with  the sex addiction or was that someone else?



That was the guy with the sex addiction.

We seem to be in a heightened period of mass shootings again.


----------



## Eric

Alli said:


> That was the guy with the sex addiction.
> 
> We seem to be in a heightened period of mass shootings again.



It's sad but it's good to see Biden at least trying to do something about it. The ease of access these people have to these weapons is hard to believe.


----------



## Chew Toy McCoy

It seems the one thing the government can agree on is stop this bullshit against Asians.


----------



## Eric

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> It seems the one thing the government can agree on is stop this bullshit against Asians.



Yes, and the fact that regardless of what happened in Wuhan that blaming millions of Asians for the actions of a few is reprehensible.


----------



## SuperMatt

There was a racist attack on Olympic gold medalist Sunisa Lee.

https://www.popsugar.com/fitness/suni-lee-olympics-interview-48564671


> Suni's accomplishments don't make her immune to the painful and dangerous realities of anti-Asian hate in America. With the rate of unprovoked violence against Asian Americans fueled by COVID-19 misinformation continuing to climb across the nation, she tells me she found herself facing a racist attack a week before our conversation. While waiting for an Uber after a night out with her girlfriends, who are all of Asian descent, they were startled by a group speeding by in a car yelling racist slurs like "ching chong" and insisting they "go back to where they came from." One passenger, Suni says, sprayed her arm with pepper spray as the car sped off.
> 
> "I was so mad, but there was nothing I could do or control because they skirted off," she recalls. "I didn't do anything to them, and having the reputation, it's so hard because I didn't want to do anything that could get me into trouble. I just let it happen." Having grown up in a tight-knit community full of Hmong Americans like herself, she struggles to wrap her head around these hateful crimes. It's difficult to speak up about uncomfortable topics like racial injustice, especially at her age, but she knows that using her voice makes a difference.


----------



## thekev

Huntn said:


> Is this the guy with  the* sex addiction* or was that someone else?




Not a thing that's actually supported by strong evidence, using the clinical definition of addiction.


----------

