# I like nice headphones too, but... $550



## JayMysteri0

> AirPods Max
> 
> 
> AirPods Max combine high-fidelity audio with industry-leading Active Noise Cancellation, Adaptive EQ,  spatial audio, and free engraving.
> 
> 
> 
> www.apple.com



$550 for headphones you would rock on a plane?   

$200 over Bose & Sony?

These things have to produce noise cancelling that earns the name "Fortress of Solitude".

How do you sell that, without a physical presentation?

My bad.  The free engraving is still present.  So...


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## Eric

JayMysteri0 said:


> $550 for headphones you would rock on a plane?
> 
> $200 over Bose & Sony?
> 
> These things have to produce noise cancelling that earns the name "Fortress of Solitude".
> 
> How do you sell that, without a physical presentation?
> 
> My bad.  The free engraving is still present.  So...



I love the AirPods Pro 2, especially with their noise cancellation but this price is waaaay too steep, I would never pay that for headphones like this. Definitely a specialty item for those who can afford it.


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## leekohler2

Yeah, I saw them on Apple's homepage and just went...NO.


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## iMi

And here is why an industrial design being a male-dominated field is a problem. At least they offer good support, right ladies?


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## thekev

I would probably try Sony or Audio Technica or something. I used to like Sennheiser, but their pricing increased a lot and they were somewhat fragile in my experience. I would never buy headphones from Apple.


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## Scepticalscribe

iMi said:


> And here is why an industrial design being a male-dominated field is a problem. At least they offer good support, right ladies?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 1757




Sigh.

Yes, well, all too tediously predictable; what a puerile cliché (and - evidently - it is not as though women ever invest in, or purchase, or wish to buy, headphones).

For myself, I will stick with Bowers & Wilkins; their P5s (and I also have the original P7s) are the best headphones I have ever had.


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## DT

I dig on the design, the features are slick, and with Apple's resources, they may easily be as good as other higher-ish end headphones, but they're just a bit too much.  I guess with Airpod Pros being $249, I'm not sure how much I expected these might be, I guess I was thinking ~$399.


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## JayMysteri0

DT said:


> I dig on the design, the features are slick, and with Apple's resources, they may easily be as good as other higher-ish end headphones, but they're just a bit too much.  I guess with Airpod Pros being $249, I'm not sure how much I expected these might be, I guess I was thinking ~$399.



That's what everyone thought.  It was going to be the competitor to Bose & Sony who ARE the bar when it comes to this type of headphone.  I guess since Beats Studio is priced in their range, Apple felt they couldn't cheapen their new product.  So the sales pitch will begin that this is high high end wireless headphones for the business/affluent set.  These are hitting the bottom of audiophile headphones who normally scoff at things wireless.


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## thekev

JayMysteri0 said:


> I guess since Beats Studio is priced in their range, Apple felt they couldn't cheapen their new product.




Beats are basically trash though. They're flimsy garbage with low fidelity. They could just displace Beats. I'm skeptical as to how many they'll really sell at $500.



iMi said:


> And here is why an industrial design being a male-dominated field is a problem. At least they offer good support, right ladies?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 1757




Are you saying they look like a brazier or like a woman's handbag (the flap looks like something inspired by women's handbags)? Either way I think you're turning it into a Rorshach test. I'm also not certain that Apple's design teams are primarily composed of men.


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## JayMysteri0

thekev said:


> Beats are basically trash though. They're flimsy garbage with low fidelity. They could just displace Beats. I'm skeptical as to how many they'll really sell at $500.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying they look like a brazier or like a woman's handbag (the flap looks like something inspired by women's handbags)? Either way I think you're turning it into a Rorshach test. I'm also not certain that Apple's design teams are primarily composed of men.



Quality aside, Beats are a product mover.  The young who see Bose like they see Facebook, go with Beats.

Apple will push these as a status symbol, which is why I imagine the late / near Christmas release.  Want to flex?  Here you go.

I do wonder though if the reviews aren't so glowing & the influencers don't jump on board, if we are seeing Homepod Pt. 2.


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## thekev

JayMysteri0 said:


> Quality aside, Beats are a product mover.  The young who see Bose like they see Facebook, go with Beats.




Sure. I don't particularly care for Bose either. I just view them both as overpriced junk. I don't particularly like Facebook either. I probably check it once every few months and haven't posted anything there in a decade.


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## SuperMatt

I‘m a bit of a homebody. I only listen to headphones when I’m doing housework because it helps me get through it, enjoying music, public radio, or a podcast. For other listening, I have a Zeppelin Air that I bought on sale many years ago... still going strong!


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## DT

Funny enough, I'm looking for a pair of headphones for the wife, working out, a little music here and there, mostly from her desk, wireless, active NC, I'm thinking about the Sony WH-XB900N.  Maybe a couple of packs of earcup "socks", there's a couple of brands they say are great for working out.

I mean, there are some workout specific brands, but I do generally dig on Sony.


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## iMi

thekev said:


> Beats are basically trash though. They're flimsy garbage with low fidelity. They could just displace Beats. I'm skeptical as to how many they'll really sell at $500.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying they look like a brazier or like a woman's handbag (the flap looks like something inspired by women's handbags)? Either way I think you're turning it into a Rorshach test. I'm also not certain that Apple's design teams are primarily composed of men.




Hmm... not sure when is the last time you used a pair of Beats. I like my Beats Studio3 quite a bit and the new Solo Pro's are also getting great reviews. Old Beats, prior to Apple buying them out, where subpar at best. Things have changed quite a bit since then...

Oh, and the the storage case comment was obviously a joke...


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## Chew Toy McCoy

ericgtr12 said:


> I love the AirPods Pro 2, especially with their noise cancellation but this price is waaaay too steep, I would never pay that for headphones like this. Definitely a specialty item for those who can afford it.



You know there are more expensive headphones for music production but that’s not what these are for.  I’d go as far as saying they are probably shit for music production and color the sound to the point that the end result would sound like garbage on any other headphones or speaker system, much like trying to do production on a Bose (Better Sound Through Marketing) home theater system.


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## Joe

It's gonna be a no from me!


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## User.45

iMi said:


> And here is why an industrial design being a male-dominated field is a problem. At least they offer good support, right ladies?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 1757



Is this serious?

*Lol, nope, OK, I can't read apparently.


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## thekev

iMi said:


> Hmm... not sure when is the last time you used a pair of Beats. I like my Beats Studio3 quite a bit and the new Solo Pro's are also getting great reviews. Old Beats, prior to Apple buying them out, where subpar at best. Things have changed quite a bit since then...
> 
> Oh, and the the storage case comment was obviously a joke...




Quite a long time ago. I never owned any personally, but I saw a lot of cords break for other people. Typically the audiophile brands offer better value than something as highly marketed as Beats.



iMi said:


> Oh, and the the storage case comment was obviously a joke...




I'm never quite sure, although product designers do sometimes copy ideas from women's fashion.


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## User.45

iMi said:


> Hmm... not sure when is the last time you used a pair of Beats. I like my Beats Studio3 quite a bit and the new Solo Pro's are also getting great reviews. Old Beats, prior to Apple buying them out, where subpar at best. Things have changed quite a bit since then...
> 
> Oh, and the the storage case comment was obviously a joke...



Dunno, I got a pair of wireless beats with my iPad pro for "free." It's okayish for free, it's garbage for actual money. For example, it supports one device, cannot replay and charge at the same time, no wired audio option so on and so forth. 

Wireless headsets are the mp3 of this generation. It give you a new level of freedom with a lot of sound quality compromise that only those hear who actually have heard the old tech at its height. It will catch up one day, and that day seems to be near, but had not arrived yet.



Chew Toy McCoy said:


> You know there are more expensive headphones for music production but that’s not what these are for.  I’d go as far as saying they are probably shit for music production and color the sound to the point that the end result would sound like garbage on any other headphones or speaker system, much like trying to do production on a Bose (Better Sound Through Marketing) home theater system.



No highs or lows, must be Bose per the old audiophile proverb. Most of the headphones that come close to adequacy for mixing are awful to listen to in my experience.


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## Thomas Veil

I'm afraid my days of owning quality headphones of _any_ brand are long over. My upper frequency hearing is barely mediocre, so these would be wasted on me. 

Still, when I saw the price on these I was floored. I agree with everyone else: way too expensive.


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## thekev

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> You know there are more expensive headphones for music production but that’s not what these are for.  I’d go as far as saying they are probably shit for music production and color the sound to the point that the end result would sound like garbage on any other headphones or speaker system, much like trying to do production on a Bose (Better Sound Through Marketing) home theater system.




Missed this one. Headphones designed for music production have totally different qualities. First off, you probably can't plug them into your computer's headphone jack and expect results, even with an adapter for the headphone jack.  They tend to have much higher impedance. Secondly, they're tuned to be neutral, not bassy or anything. The goal is to depict things as they are intended, according to a reference model. You probably wouldn't want studio headphones to enjoy music any more than you would want a broadcast display for a monitor.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

PearsonX said:


> Dunno, I got a pair of wireless beats with my iPad pro for "free." It's okayish for free, it's garbage for actual money. For example, it supports one device, cannot replay and charge at the same time, no wired audio option so on and so forth.
> 
> Wireless headsets are the mp3 of this generation. It give you a new level of freedom with a lot of sound quality compromise that only those hear who actually have heard the old tech at its height. It will catch up one day, and that day seems to be near, but had not arrived yet.
> 
> 
> No highs or lows, must be Bose per the old audiophile proverb. Most of the headphones that come close to adequacy for mixing are awful to listen to in my experience.




Like the legendary Yamaha NS-10 studio monitors that were widely hated at release but then became the industry standard because they are so difficult to get a good sound of that if you do then you probably nailed a great mix.   I worked for a studio in the past that had a pair of those just because clients requested hearing the mix on those speakers so frequently.


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## User.45

Chew Toy McCoy said:


> Like the legendary Yamaha NS-10 studio monitors that were widely hated at release but then became the industry standard because they are so difficult to get a good sound of that if you do then you probably nailed a great mix.   I worked for a studio in the past that had a pair of those just because clients requested hearing the mix on those speakers so frequently.



Good old 2000s.  Everyone I know who actually worked with these hated them

Edit: they discontinued it in 2001, then people started buying up the new version...Then they realized that the new version is shitty, only to be reminded by those that all of these are awful


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## Gutwrench

I’m nearsighted and have hearing issues. When it comes to television and headphone purchases I go functional. Btw I just turned 60 so that goes for anything with a lifetime warranty too. I don’t need to pay the premium.


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## User.45

Gutwrench said:


> I’m nearsighted and have hearing issues. When it comes to television and headphone purchases I go functional. Btw I just turned 60 so that goes for anything with a lifetime warranty too. I don’t need to pay the premium.



Saves all the money for quality booze


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## iMi

Gutwrench said:


> I’m nearsighted and have hearing issues. When it comes to television and headphone purchases I go functional. Btw I just turned 60 so that goes for anything with a lifetime warranty too. I don’t need to pay the premium.




Happy Birthday! 

I believe an obligatory "let me tell you, you whippersnappers, what I could have bought for a nickel when I was your age" story is in order.


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## rdrr

You shouldn't be shocked at Apple's brazen over-pricing of their products.   Do you remember this little gem?



			https://www.bestbuy.com/site/reviews/apple-pro-stand-silver/6295945?variant=A


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## Eric

rdrr said:


> You shouldn't be shocked at Apple's brazen over-pricing of their products.   Do you remember this little gem?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bestbuy.com/site/reviews/apple-pro-stand-silver/6295945?variant=A



WT actual F?? That has to be a parody.


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## User.45

ericgtr12 said:


> WT actual F?? That has to be a parody.



Nope. It is real

Add them to this:








						Apple Mac Pro Wheels Kit
					

Put your Mac Pro on wheels with the Mac Pro Wheels Kit. The custom-designed stainless steel and rubber wheels make it easy to move your Mac Pro around, whether sliding it out from under your desk or across your studio.



					www.apple.com
				




For this money, you could probably get drones that could hover your MacPro next to and your MagicDisplay over your desk


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## rdrr

PearsonX said:


> Nope. It is real



I feel like I should open up a machine shop, create a knock off and charge $499.


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## Eric

rdrr said:


> I feel like I should open up a machine shop, create a knock off and charge $499.



They could slap a MAGA sticker on it and his ignorant ass supporters would buy them all out.


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## JayMysteri0

A review from a non audio phile


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## DT

Well, yeah, but when you're talking about $5000-6000 displays, and $10,000 computers, then stands, wheels, etc., just don't follow a consumer pricing model, so it seems a little absurd.


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## DT

Speaking of headphones, I wound up getting the wife a pair Sony WHXB900N (in black), just a killer deal at Amazon (50% off), then the little G was talking about wanting some over ear wireless, so I saw the Amazon exclusive blue WHXB900Ns available again, so I ordered another pair  So both the ladies will get them, blue for the wife, black/goth for the daughter


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## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> A review from a non audio phile





DT said:


> Speaking of headphones, I wound up getting the wife a pair Sony WHXB900N (in black), just a killer deal at Amazon (50% off), then the little G was talking about wanting some over ear wireless, so I saw the Amazon exclusive blue WHXB900Ns available again, so I ordered another pair  So both the ladies will get them, blue for the wife, black/goth for the daughter



Yup. It's a decent review, the definite conclusion: you can buy a Sony WHXB900N AND a true audiophile headphone like a HD600/6xx and if you're lucky you can even slap a used Apogee Groove on top for the price of the Airpods max, which makes the deal simple.

However, this guy definitely doesn't understand noise cancelling headset very well so his remarks on sound quality are irrelevant.
Specifically, noise cancellation will muddy your mids and can muffle your highs, and the sound quality difference with the Sony being "dark" is likely Sony's ANC. 
So a fair comparison is ANC on/off (sony has multiple settings AFAIK), and then compare wired operation with ANC off as well where you completely bypass the digital-to-analog converter of the headset (which is likely inferior even to the DAC of decent cell phone).
He also didn't clarify whether
1. Does the airpods max work with non-apple devices?
2. Does it do wired playback and can it charge and play concurrently?

#2 really determines how important battery life is.


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## DT

PearsonX said:


> Yup. It's a decent review, the definite conclusion: you can buy a Sony WHXB900N AND a true audiophile headphone like a HD600/6xx and if you're lucky you can even slap a used Apogee Groove on top for the price of the Airpods max, which makes the deal simple.




~$250 for both pairs of Sonys, (marked down 50% from $250), $220 for HD6XX, so that's $470, hahaha, it's pretty close, heck, you could do a Schiit Fulla 2 for $89, or catch a B-stock for $69, OK, now you're <= $550 

Speaking of integrated DAC/Amps from Schiit, this new product is pretty slick:





__





						Schiit Audio: Audio Products Designed and Built in California and Texas
					






					www.schiit.com
				




A decent step up from the Fulla, and I love their new black-red option on some products.


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## iMi

JayMysteri0 said:


> A review from a non audio phile




"These don't look like any other pair of headphones." Huh? Let's see... two ear cups? check. Drivers? check. Headband? check. They look _exactly_ like any other pair of headphones. Except they are heavier and come with a lower run time. Let's say they are 10% better in audio quality. Most of us will not be able to perceive the difference. Even if we do, I'd say pay additional $50 more and maybe another $50 for it being Apple. That's still going to place them somewhere in the range of $399-$449. 

There is one thing the reviews hit on perfectly. These are 100% aspirational. It's not about creating value for the consumer or delivering a substantially better experience at a premium. It's about creating a status statement. And that's fine. We do this with cars, homes, jobs and other consumer products. I don't drive a Mercedes because it's _twice_ as functional as Honda or _twice_ as fast or _twice_ as comfortable or _twice_ as safe. It only costs twice as much. I drive it because it has that marginal refinement in driving dynamics, luxury interior and that lovely three spike emblem up front that says something about me. I'd be lying if I said otherwise.


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## User.45

iMi said:


> "These don't look like any other pair of headphones." Huh? Let's see... two ear cups? check. Drivers? check. Headband? check. They look _exactly_ like any other pair of headphones. Except they are heavier and come with a lower run time. Let's say they are 10% better in audio quality. Most of us will not be able to perceive the difference. Even if we do, I'd say pay additional $50 more and maybe another $50 for it being Apple. That's still going to place them somewhere in the range of $399-$449.



It's a headphone worth getting robbed for I guess It really accomplishes the opposite I'd expect from a super compromised wireless headset: forgetting that it's on.


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## The-Real-Deal82

Hey familiar names 
I just bought these:








I have to say they are brilliant and only cost me £60 on Amazon, down from £80. The reviews all seem to suggest they are decent too. Chuffed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## DT

Hey, who let the riff-raff into the room??


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## iMi

Reviews are adding up and looks like most are having trouble justifying the price. Yet, they are sold out everywhere. Apple must be doing something right.


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## The-Real-Deal82

iMi said:


> Reviews are adding up and looks like most are having trouble justifying the price. Yet, they are sold out everywhere. Apple must be doing something right.




Probably a small amount of stock to begin with I would imagine. I don’t know many people who spend that sort of money on headphones when it’s not far off the price of an iPhone. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Joe

I'm not an over the ear headphones guy. I have AirPods Pro. I just bought a 2nd pair of Airpods on Amazon. They had them on sale for $109 and I had a gift card I needed to use. I bought a 2nd pair to leave at work because sometimes I forget to bring my original pair. Yeah, I know. First World Problems lol


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## The-Real-Deal82

I don’t spend a lot of money on earphones/headphones because I have a history of losing or breaking them. I have the EarPods that have come with previous iPhones, a pair of £40 in ear ones I use for running and now a £60 pair of over ear ones. If I had a pair of AirPods I know I’d lose one at some point and it would wind me up royally lol.


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## iMi

So, I ordered the stupid AirPods Maxes. Here's why. Apparently they include a new codec technology that will put everything else on the market to shame by allowing artists to deliver sound exactly as intended. It seems like a lot of the features are not entirely obvious or particularly well marketed. They are supposedly also adding compatibility with other encoding types.

I can still return the MX4's by the time these get here. We'll see how it goes.


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## Chew Toy McCoy

Anybody who has them let me know how they are with connecting to an Apple TV because 9 times out of 10 I can't get my Airpod Pros to connect at all.  Sometimes it thinks they are connected by the graphics on the screen but there isn't any sound coming out of them.  I don't have any issues with my Home Pods connecting.


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## JayMysteri0

iMi said:


> So, I ordered the stupid AirPods Maxes. Here's why. Apparently they include a new codec technology that will put everything else on the market to shame by allowing artists to deliver sound exactly as intended. It seems like a lot of the features are not entirely obvious or particularly well marketed. They are supposedly also adding compatibility with other encoding types.
> 
> I can still return the MX4's by the time these get here. We'll see how it goes.



How long is your wait time?

I saw on two of the colors, it was down to next month or just a few weeks.  While Blue & Green were still a few months off.


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## User.168

.


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## chengengaun

theSeb said:


> I have a pair of wired AKG headphones when I want to listen to music. For other stuff the normal AirPods do the job. For flying I use my old wired Bose headphones. Even though they are about 8 years old they do the job and have been to 4 continents and many countries. Whilst I agree that Bose makes a lot of horrendously overpriced products backed by the name more than anything, when it comes to noise cancelling tech, they have always been one of the best.
> 
> These Apple headphones look nice and I don't mind paying for nice things, but I am remain unconvinced that they are worth the entry price.



One year later I am still trying to justify spending US$550 on the AirPods Max. My situation and solutions seem similar to yours: AirPods Pro for commute and Bose QC25 for travel. I am looking for a third solution for quality listening to classical music.

AirPods Max don't seem to excel in any of these things - it's bulky, heavy and difficult to carry around - does not fit well in one-bag carryon travel scenario. The sound quality seems (sounds?) decent but not great. And it is really expensive given the feature set.

Having realised that, I started to explore the possibility of acquiring a set of acoustically good headphones, DAC and headphone amps for the price of AirPods Max. However, I was (and am) no audiophile and my knowledge in this area is very limited; decision paralysis meant that the decision laid dormant for nearly a year.

After purchasing the new MBP (that can drive high-impedance headphones) the idea came to mind again and I restarted the search. The stars aligned today and I manage to acquire a pair of used Sennheiser HD-650 and JDS Labs EL II DAC and Amp for US$550. I hope that is a much more satisfactory solution than adding a pair of AirPods Max.


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## throAU

Happy with my Sony WH1000XM4s... at FAR less money.

I can even plug them into stuff.


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## User.45

chengengaun said:


> One year later I am still trying to justify spending US$550 on the AirPods Max. My situation and solutions seem similar to yours: AirPods Pro for commute and Bose QC25 for travel. I am looking for a third solution for quality listening to classical music.
> 
> AirPods Max don't seem to excel in any of these things - it's bulky, heavy and difficult to carry around - does not fit well in one-bag carryon travel scenario. The sound quality seems (sounds?) decent but not great. And it is really expensive given the feature set.
> 
> Having realised that, I started to explore the possibility of acquiring a set of acoustically good headphones, DAC and headphone amps for the price of AirPods Max. However, I was (and am) no audiophile and my knowledge in this area is very limited; decision paralysis meant that the decision laid dormant for nearly a year.
> 
> After purchasing the new MBP (that can drive high-impedance headphones) the idea came to mind again and I restarted the search. The stars aligned today and I manage to acquire a pair of used Sennheiser HD-650 and JDS Labs EL II DAC and Amp for US$550. I hope that is a much more satisfactory solution than adding a pair of AirPods Max.



The senny HD6XX series are the best sounding open headphones I've used to date. The only drawback is that these are open headset so your noise floor will really be determined by the noise level of your environment. Your surroundings will also hear _everything_ you're listening to so this headphone sorta loses it's magic if it's used in shared space.


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## Edd

I’ve had Beats Powerbeats 3 buds which have served me well for 3 years. They’re starting to crap out now. 

I’ve looked at all brands and the Beats Pro buds seem to be the way to go. 9 hours of battery life on truly wireless earbuds seems the best I can find. My old ones had 12 but weren’t truly wireless.


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## Andropov

Anyone here has both the AirPods Max and any of the Harman Kardon's SoundSticks (II/III/Wireless)? I can't listen to music on speakers anymore, but I miss the quality of the SoundSticks... not sure if the AirPods Max can match it.


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## Roller

Back in the day I bought a set of STAX electrostatics, which required a separate amplifier unit. The company called them "earspeakers" because they said the sound was much closer to high-end speakers than headphones. They were incredible, but cost more than $1,000 in the late 1980s. The company is still around, with their highest-end version going for $6,200, which will ship in 2022. The claimed frequency response is 5 - 42 KHz. But they do sell a pair for only $455 for the budget-conscious.


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## User.45

Andropov said:


> Anyone here has both the AirPods Max and any of the Harman Kardon's SoundSticks (II/III/Wireless)? I can't listen to music on speakers anymore, but I miss the quality of the SoundSticks... not sure if the AirPods Max can match it.



I've never heard the APM but I've been rocking a Harman Kardon Soundstick II for the past 10 years. It's apples to oranges, but I'd say the HKSS are on the level of a midlevel Sennheiser, like HD595 or HD555 (lots of fun and cost-efficiency for those without OCD).



chengengaun said:


> One year later I am still trying to justify spending US$550 on the AirPods Max. My situation and solutions seem similar to yours: AirPods Pro for commute and Bose QC25 for travel. I am looking for a third solution for quality listening to classical music.
> 
> AirPods Max don't seem to excel in any of these things - it's bulky, heavy and difficult to carry around - does not fit well in one-bag carryon travel scenario. The sound quality seems (sounds?) decent but not great. And it is really expensive given the feature set.
> 
> Having realised that, I started to explore the possibility of acquiring a set of acoustically good headphones, DAC and headphone amps for the price of AirPods Max. However, I was (and am) no audiophile and my knowledge in this area is very limited; decision paralysis meant that the decision laid dormant for nearly a year.
> 
> After purchasing the new MBP (that can drive high-impedance headphones) the idea came to mind again and I restarted the search. The stars aligned today and I manage to acquire a pair of used Sennheiser HD-650 and JDS Labs EL II DAC and Amp for US$550. I hope that is a much more satisfactory solution than adding a pair of AirPods Max.



Apogee Groove is a nice all in one DAC/amp solution that works on android Ios and macos. You can snatch it for <200. 



Roller said:


> Back in the day I bought a set of STAX electrostatics, which required a separate amplifier unit. The company called them "earspeakers" because they said the sound was much closer to high-end speakers than headphones. They were incredible, but cost more than $1,000 in the late 1980s. The company is still around, with their highest-end version going for $6,200, which will ship in 2022. The claimed frequency response is 5 - 42 KHz. But they do sell a pair for only $455 for the budget-conscious.



I remember the type.  The guy I bought my HD600 from in 2005 got an akg k1000 and didn’t use the sennheizer anymore. That was my first venture into high(er)-end audio.


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## BigMcGuire

Beats Studio owner here. Yeah I know. My wife and I bought them years ago thinking they’d be awesome. While the noise cancellation was nice (our first experience with noise cancellation) - I can’t say I enjoy them. Sound quality is noticeably worse than AirPods (imo) and it makes your ears sweat after time.

I tried AirPods Pro but the tips hurt after awhile - and the compression feeling in the ears makes my jaws hurt.

So I’m a big AirPods user. 1, 2, and now 3. Absolutely love these - use them all day long for music, work calls, and jogging.

I use my Beats studios for airplane rides and when I’m helping my wife at the university in her noisy lab (where I am now).

$500+ just … it’s just too expensive cuz I’d have to buy two of them (my wife and I).

I’ve used Grado (open ear) head phones in the past so while I’m aware of quality but imo the Beats Studios just sound terrible. Bass is nice, but that’s bout it.


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## User.45

BigMcGuire said:


> Beats Studio owner here. Yeah I know. My wife and I bought them years ago thinking they’d be awesome. While the noise cancellation was nice (our first experience with noise cancellation) - I can’t say I enjoy them. Sound quality is noticeably worse than AirPods (imo) and it makes your ears sweat after time.
> 
> I tried AirPods Pro but the tips hurt after awhile - and the compression feeling in the ears makes my jaws hurt.
> 
> So I’m a big AirPods user. 1, 2, and now 3. Absolutely love these - use them all day long for music, work calls, and jogging.
> 
> I use my Beats studios for airplane rides and when I’m helping my wife at the university in her noisy lab (where I am now).
> 
> $500+ just … it’s just too expensive cuz I’d have to buy two of them (my wife and I).
> 
> I’ve used Grado (open ear) head phones in the past so while I’m aware of quality but imo the Beats Studios just sound terrible. Bass is nice, but that’s bout it.



Last time I tried Beats I got a laughing fit. It is known that (at least in the past) they put weights in the headphones to make it feel more robust and the one I tried many years ago literally sounded like speakers put on a card box.


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## JayMysteri0

I'll be honest.  I'm no audiophile, but I've never gotten all the hate Beats get.  I understand they are a marketing driven product, but for the style of music they are oriented towards they handle the job well enough.  Would I listen to original Miles Davis vinyl with them?  No.  Would I listen to the latest song I brought off of itunes with them?  Yes, especially if it's rap / hip hop or chillhop.  They get the job done well enough with a canned sound ( as if Bose isn't canned ), and depending on your age group / personal preferences can look cool.  I always get a kick out of people who don't mention Sony's taste for sweetening bass, ( evidently they pulled back on this with the WH1000XM4s ) as if they don't have their own version of what Beats do.  Although I do think Sony makes the 2nd most comfortable headphones after Bose & Bose's 'meh' sound.

BTW, I actually did get a pair of the Airpods Max.  Some posters @ MR mentioned monitoring Best Buy's open box sections regularly because stuff is often sold there cheap.  I managed to get a pair, cheaper than all the sale prices that have come along.  More than $100 off.  Despite BB's claims of checking out previous products though, I found the headphones still registered to the original buyer.    Good work BB.

If you want an Apple product and don't want to wait for refurbs, check out the Best Buy Open Box section regularly or even Amazon's Warehouse.  That's where I think I got my Airpods at a very good price.

The Airpods Max are a weird duck that solves no problem anyone asked about.  They are decent headphones that are not more comfortable than anything Apple already sells.  They are basically the home version of Airpods.  Because at the price tag they sell for, you really don't want to take them outside unless to flex.  Which makes them headphones for the home, but if you have option to rock a solid pair of wired headphones for better quality you will.  Which basically makes them Airpods with better sound, spatial audio, and bluetooth.  As if bluetooth is really an issue in the house.  So basically while I do like them, I really don't use them.  I have Beats Studio buds ( I prefer the fit in my ear over airpods, not the sound ) for outside, and if I am i front of the computer I have wired ( getting my first Sennheiser's this Christmas, the "intro" ones ) options ( I've even used the Sony's XM3's in a pinch ) headphones.

Do I regret getting them?  No.  When I've worn them watching Apple TV they've been pretty great.   The problem is it's maybe once or twice a month I watch the Apple TV trying not to disturb anyone else in the house.


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## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> Do I regret getting them?  No.  When I've worn them watching Apple TV they've been pretty great.   The problem is it's maybe once or twice a month I watch the Apple TV trying not to disturb anyone else in the house.



Spatial audio might be interesting for that. 




JayMysteri0 said:


> I'll be honest.  I'm no audiophile, but I've never gotten all the hate Beats get.  I understand they are a marketing driven product, but for the style of music they are oriented towards they handle the job well enough.  Would I listen to original Miles Davis vinyl with them?  No.  Would I listen to the latest song I brought off of itunes with them?  Yes, especially if it's rap / hip hop or chillhop.  They get the job done well enough with a canned sound ( as if Bose isn't canned ), and depending on your age group / personal preferences can look cool.  I always get a kick out of people who don't mention Sony's taste for sweetening bass, ( evidently they pulled back on this with the WH1000XM4s ) as if they don't have their own version of what Beats do.  Although I do think Sony makes the 2nd most comfortable headphones after Bose & Bose's 'meh' sound.



Well, I could compare bass boost with salting your food. A tiny bit at the right place can do miracles, but if you salt everything continuously, you won't appreciate the real taste of food. Beats also sold $20 cans for $200 and pushed to the brink of bankruptcy headphone makers that, well, made actual headphones.


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## JayMysteri0

P_X said:


> Well, I could compare bass boost with salting your food. A tiny bit at the right place can do miracles, but if you salt everything continuously, you won't appreciate the real taste of food. Beats also sold $20 cans for $200 and pushed to the brink of bankruptcy headphone makers that, well, made actual headphones.



I for one am a fan of salty fries.  Beats feeds a craving that a specific audience desires.  One person's too salty fries are another's bland boring wet sticks of potatoes.  Beats addresses a market that others didn't well enough & they were amply rewarded.  That shouldn't be the thing that irritates others.  It's the thing that clearly demonstrates there are different strokes for different folks.  Some want and/or need neutral, some what bright or shiny, some will want broad or airy sound stages, others want artificially stimulated thumping bass.  To each their own & their own spending.


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## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> I for one am a fan of salty fries.  Beats feeds a craving that a specific audience desires.  One person's too salty fries are another's bland boring wet sticks of potatoes.  Beats addresses a market that others didn't well enough & they were amply rewarded.  That shouldn't be the thing that irritates others.  It's the thing that clearly demonstrates there are different strokes for different folks.



Well, it's sorta like addressing the weed market by selling oreganos. I don't care that much though, as everybody survived. Some headphones even look better now. 


JayMysteri0 said:


> Some want and/or need neutral, some what bright or shiny, some will want broad or airy sound stages, others want artificially stimulated thumping bass.



Well, if you want that BASS, you're better off getting a snug closed HP with a large membrane and boost it slightly EQ if needed (even better cut everything else slightly if there's enough headroom for volume. 



JayMysteri0 said:


> To each their own & their own spending.



Of course. But honestly, it's just empty marketing that Beats is great for Hiphop. Hip hop is generally so awfully mastered it's not even worth it to listen to it lossless. There are some exceptions like the Roots, or Beneath the Surface from GZA which I consider the gold standard of a hiphop album master. But in general, well, anything could do for the genre.


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## JayMysteri0

P_X said:


> Of course. But honestly, it's just empty marketing that Beats is great for Hiphop. Hip hop is generally so awfully mastered it's not even worth it to listen to it lossless. There are some exceptions like the Roots, or Beneath the Surface from GZA which I consider the gold standard of a hiphop album master. But in general, well, anything could do for the genre.



I have to imagine as you've pointed out what Rap you listen to is the level of mix & master, just like any genre.

If you're a fan of the likes of Mad Lib or other DJs who are fond of their craft, there is enormous pride & quality in their mixes.

But as I said, for basic commercial product that Beats is marketed to, it does a basic commercial job.

From the vitriol I would read on forums when Beats were mentioned that seemed to sponsor aneurysms, it often feels like the complaints are lazy punching down.  Like saying why buy a Kia Stinger or Hyundai whatever _luxury_ model, Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti instead of a BMW or Mercedes or Jaguar?  It's because you wanted to?  Isn't that enough, no matter the difference in quality to whatever the price?

You spend your dollars on whatever makes your endorphins happy, even if it's a placebo.


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## User.45

JayMysteri0 said:


> I have to imagine as you've pointed out what Rap you listen to is the level of mix & master, just like any genre.
> 
> If you're a fan of the likes of Mad Lib or other DJs who are fond of their craft, there is enormous pride & quality in their mixes.



I like Madlib (at least used to I haven't heard his new stuff), but he never sounded great. Classic hiphop = MPC60, and its beauty is that it was really really dirty, 12bit and Lo-Fi. Or Wu-Tang's classics Triumph or C.R.E.A.M. they never sounded great in the classical sense. The best MPC60 remasters you'll hear is Dj Shadow's 1994 Entroducing.



JayMysteri0 said:


> But as I said, for basic commercial product that Beats is marketed to, it does a basic commercial job.
> 
> From the vitriol I would read on forums when Beats were mentioned that seemed to sponsor aneurysms, it often feels like the complaints are lazy punching down.  Like saying why buy a Kia Stinger or Hyundai whatever _luxury_ model, Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti instead of a BMW or Mercedes or Jaguar?  It's because you wanted to?  Isn't that enough, no matter the difference in quality to whatever the price?
> 
> You spend your dollars on whatever makes your endorphins happy, even if it's a placebo.



The analogy's pretty good. Beats is like the plastic version of Hummers (H2?!) sold at the price of a Mercedes. Usually the large Beats cans cost $200, Sennheiser's Momentums priced the same. I bought mine 7 years ago, changed the cable 3 times, but otherwise it's good as new.

(I agree the beats bashing is boring, but it's important to point out how many more options are that are way better bang for the buck).


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## chengengaun

chengengaun said:


> The stars aligned today and I manage to acquire a pair of used Sennheiser HD-650 and JDS Labs EL II DAC and Amp for US$550. I hope that is a much more satisfactory solution than adding a pair of AirPods Max.





P_X said:


> The senny HD6XX series are the best sounding open headphones I've used to date. The only drawback is that these are open headset so your noise floor will really be determined by the noise level of your environment. Your surroundings will also hear _everything_ you're listening to so this headphone sorta loses it's magic if it's used in shared space.





P_X said:


> Apogee Groove is a nice all in one DAC/amp solution that works on android Ios and macos. You can snatch it for <200.



Happy to report that I received the Sennheiser HD-650* and JDS Labs stack (I bought these earlier before your Apogee Groove recommendation) and boy, they sound really good. I don't really know the correct terminology in describing sound quality, but the first thing that struck me was the flatness of the sound profile; it's not especially heavy on treble or bass, just well balanced. Instrument separation is really good, and I can finally hear the pizzicato and distinctly recognise the double bass while other sections (e.g. bassoons) are playing, not having to imagine their presence or recall from memory. The performance is consistent across a wide dynamic range - from pianissimo all the way to fortissimo - so they are really well suited for orchestral music. I only dialled the volume to 10-15% so I wonder what will happen at higher level and it gets really loud.

The sensation of wearing a pair of open-back headphones feels a bit strange but I got used to it - just have to stop tapping my fingers. I installed the setup in a quiet room and the new MBP is silent (thankfully I replaced the Intel 16"), so it works well. I think the open design makes the sound more... expansive and lends it (spatial) volume. There is no 'spatial audio' head tracking but I think that might be advantageous in my case.

Oops, I've gone quite a ways off topic...

* The deal almost fell through; the seller had second thoughts and was unwilling to let it go!


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## User.45

chengengaun said:


> Happy to report that I received the Sennheiser HD-650* and JDS Labs stack (I bought these earlier before your Apogee Groove recommendation) and boy, they sound really good. I don't really know the correct terminology in describing sound quality, but the first thing that struck me was the flatness of the sound profile; it's not especially heavy on treble or bass, just well balanced. Instrument separation is really good, and I can finally hear the pizzicato and distinctly recognise the double bass while other sections (e.g. bassoons) are playing, not having to imagine their presence or recall from memory. The performance is consistent across a wide dynamic range - from pianissimo all the way to fortissimo - so they are really well suited for orchestral music. I only dialled the volume to 10-15% so I wonder what will happen at higher level and it gets really loud.
> 
> The sensation of wearing a pair of open-back headphones feels a bit strange but I got used to it - just have to stop tapping my fingers. I installed the setup in a quiet room and the new MBP is silent (thankfully I replaced the Intel 16"), so it works well. I think the open design makes the sound more... expansive and lends it (spatial) volume. There is no 'spatial audio' head tracking but I think that might be advantageous in my case.
> 
> Oops, I've gone quite a ways off topic...
> 
> * The deal almost fell through; the seller had second thoughts and was unwilling to let it go!



Congrats, HD600/650/6XX is an engineering marvel. 20+ years, gimmicks came and went (we'll see if spatial audio's here to stay*) yet these headphones remained THE audiophile standard. The ridiculous thing about these is that the sound stage is so wide, you often catch yourself picking up small sounds and thinking it's coming from your surrounding and not the recording. You may even hear the musicians flip pages on their notation sheets. About the volume.... depending on one's needs, HD600s are enjoyable even without a dedicated amp, as long as you are not listening to subbass music (i.e. meaning frequencies persistently going below what an orchestra would produce). I'd love to hear your experience with the MBP's HP output in terms of volume etc. 



*A sound engineer I used to work with always said that stereo music encodes a lot more space without the risk of phase cancellation that comes from  5.1 (8.2 whatever) setups that are short of perfect. Since headphones don't run this risk, they might be a good exception.


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## chengengaun

P_X said:


> Congrats, HD600/650/6XX is an engineering marvel. 20+ years, gimmicks came and went (we'll see if spatial audio's here to stay*) yet these headphones remained THE audiophile standard. The ridiculous thing about these is that the sound stage is so wide, you often catch yourself picking up small sounds and thinking it's coming from your surrounding and not the recording. You may even hear the musicians flip pages on their notation sheets. About the volume.... depending on one's needs, HD600s are enjoyable even without a dedicated amp, as long as you are not listening to subbass music (i.e. meaning frequencies persistently going below what an orchestra would produce). I'd love to hear your experience with the MBP's HP output in terms of volume etc.
> 
> 
> 
> *A sound engineer I used to work with always said that stereo music encodes a lot more space without the risk of phase cancellation that comes from  5.1 (8.2 whatever) setups that are short of perfect. Since headphones don't run this risk, they might be a good exception.



Soundstage - yes, that's what I referred to by "more 'spatial' volume" (TIL). Yesterday I listened to Glenn Gould's recording of Goldberg Variations because I remember he hummed during the recording session. I might have heard some faint humming - but it could also be my mind playing tricks on me!

The MBP drives the HD-650 well; I usually set it to 4-5 clicks from zero, which I think is not very different from other headphones. Nonetheless, the external DAC/amp still offers superior clarity; the MBP is good in a pinch, and perfectly adequate for easy listening/pop music.


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## Edd

Got the Powerbeats Pro yesterday and took them for a spin on the Peloton today. They were “free” because I had Best Buy gift cards to use. These are a two year old design, originally retailed for $249 and now $179. Bulky case, and as far as I can tell, you need the case to pair to a new device, which annoys me.

But, the sound seems better than my Powerbeats 3 (not truly wireless). Physical design is excellent for working out, nearly impossible to knock out of your ears.


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