Electric Vehicles: General topics

[Eric]

Not angry, but guess you can put me down towards not having much faith in these reports.

Just reading subreddits relating to Tesla, it just reveals to me how ignorant( putting it nicely) people can be towards their own car. And this ignorance probably plays some influence in how they answer any reliability/quality surveys. Now that the temps are dropping, the subreddits are littered with, " My Tesla's air pressure is showing amber, what does it mean!?!?!" It means fill your damn tires up with air..... Not only can they not comprehend that, they don't even know the recommended inflation and just go off what they set in their previous cars. Or for those that just bought the fastest model possible because, " Ooooo fast!!!" are now going, " My Tesla is unsafe in the snow!" Well no crap, you still have the summer tires on the vehicle!

I bet Tesla will get hit hard shortly again after V11's release because people don't like the UI change and down mark Tesla there too.....

When it comes to Tesla's, I would only put faith in build quality scores. Every thing else, I would tend to be skeptical on.....

To add to this, a lot of the issues we see in those subs happen with other gas powered vehicles as well, the change in tire pressure being one of them and it seems like people are at a loss when it comes to basic maintenance.

Tesla is the leading EV manufacturer in the world and it puts a target on their backs. While I'm still new to it there's obviously a real anti-Tesla sentiment out there for many, fair enough if it's not your thing but the reality is everyone else is playing catch up when it comes to winning over consumers.

There are things I miss about my BMW but consider it a tradeoff for the move into an EV, which I've found quite liberating when it comes to not being a slave to the gas pump any longer. In the end I the competition will benefit us all, there's a lot of people pitting car against car but we're also learning to live in a world that will eventually put the combustion engine behind us.

 

[diamond.g]

I think some of the reliability stuff can be somewhat vague. When you say reliability, some people are going to think “will this car leave me stranded” while others are going to think “will my radio work today”. Tesla is pretty good about the former, not so much on the latter.

 

[AG_PhamD]

Not angry, but guess you can put me down towards not having much faith in these reports.

Just reading subreddits relating to Tesla, it just reveals to me how ignorant( putting it nicely) people can be towards their own car. And this ignorance probably plays some influence in how they answer any reliability/quality surveys. Now that the temps are dropping, the subreddits are littered with, " My Tesla's air pressure is showing amber, what does it mean!?!?!" It means fill your damn tires up with air..... Not only can they not comprehend that, they don't even know the recommended inflation and just go off what they set in their previous cars. Or for those that just bought the fastest model possible because, " Ooooo fast!!!" are now going, " My Tesla is unsafe in the snow!" Well no crap, you still have the summer tires on the vehicle!

I bet Tesla will get hit hard shortly again after V11's release because people don't like the UI change and down mark Tesla there too.....

When it comes to Tesla's, I would only put faith in build quality scores. Every thing else, I would tend to be skeptical on.....

Consumer Reports actually has a scientific methodology of applicable failures that can be reported and the failures are weighed differently- those that inhibit the cars’s ability to operate and those that do not.

CR also is non-profit, doesn’t accept advertisements, doesn’t allow companies to directly advertise if their car was recommended, purchases cars to review anonymously through dealers, etc.

I’ve been reading CR for 20+ years. Their car reliability rankings seemed generally pretty representative of reality. I never saw Toyota ranked among the least reliable and Land Rover among the best.

And if you think CR has some biased agenda, keep in mind they gave the Model S the top score of any car reviewed. They rated Model 3 as a top pick. Both were recommended at points.

Specifically these were the problems found with the Y:
“Commonly reported issues from Model Y owners included defective sensors that had to be replaced, problems with heat pumps, air conditioning, body panels that didn't line up and water leaks in the trunk due to missing seals, according to Fisher.” Additionally issues with paint.

The misaligned body panels, paint issues, and trunk leaking are all well known issues. The Y (and M3) is currently under investigation by NHTSA and Transport Canada because of reports of ineffective defrosters, which is obviously a safety issue. Heat pump sensors and frunk sensors appear to be common issues.

 

[quagmire]

Consumer Reports actually has a scientific methodology of applicable failures that can be reported and the failures are weighed differently- those that inhibit the cars’s ability to operate and those that do not.

CR also is non-profit, doesn’t accept advertisements, doesn’t allow companies to directly advertise if their car was recommended, purchases cars to review anonymously through dealers, etc.

I’ve been reading CR for 20+ years. Their car reliability rankings seemed generally pretty representative of reality. I never saw Toyota ranked among the least reliable and Land Rover among the best.

And if you think CR has some biased agenda, keep in mind they gave the Model S the top score of any car reviewed. They rated Model 3 as a top pick. Both were recommended at points.

Specifically these were the problems found with the Y:
“Commonly reported issues from Model Y owners included defective sensors that had to be replaced, problems with heat pumps, air conditioning, body panels that didn't line up and water leaks in the trunk due to missing seals, according to Fisher.” Additionally issues with paint.

The misaligned body panels, paint issues, and trunk leaking are all well known issues. The Y (and M3) is currently under investigation by NHTSA and Transport Canada because of reports of ineffective defrosters, which is obviously a safety issue. Heat pump sensors and frunk sensors appear to be common issues.

CR also criticized Tesla for autopilot for easily being defeated praising Ford and GM systems for using a camera to help monitor for driver attentiveness. While also ignoring it is possible to defeat Ford's/GM's system too.

Tesla updates the car to use the in car camera to do the same, now CR goes, " OMG your privacy is at risk!".

So yeah I don't have faith in CR. I don't have much faith in the media in general. So it isn't just CR.

Like I have said, Tesla by far deserves criticism. They do need to be called out on it. But at the same time, I do believe the media puts a lot of focus on Tesla and slants anything to make things appear bigger deal than it is. The whole fiasco over the "recall" back in November I believe it was when Tesla discovered a bug in the emergency braking software and patched it. By the time that hit the media, it was already fixed. But they blew it up anyway.

I know that is sort of a moving the goal posts sort of post, but idiot consumers plus media that is biased is why I don't have faith in the scores. But yes the issues listed are well known and I know about the heat pump issue too. But I wouldn't lump panel gaps or paint as a reliability issues. Build quality issues yes, but not making a car unreliable.

 

[diamond.g]

CR also criticized Tesla for autopilot for easily being defeated praising Ford and GM systems for using a camera to help monitor for driver attentiveness. While also ignoring it is possible to defeat Ford's/GM's system too.

Tesla updates the car to use the in car camera to do the same, now CR goes, " OMG your privacy is at risk!".

So yeah I don't have faith in CR. I don't have much faith in the media in general. So it isn't just CR.

Like I have said, Tesla by far deserves criticism. They do need to be called out on it. But at the same time, I do believe the media puts a lot of focus on Tesla and slants anything to make things appear bigger deal than it is. The whole fiasco over the "recall" back in November I believe it was when Tesla discovered a bug in the emergency braking software and patched it. By the time that hit the media, it was already fixed. But they blew it up anyway.

I know that is sort of a moving the goal posts sort of post, but idiot consumers plus media that is biased is why I don't have faith in the scores. But yes the issues listed are well known and I know about the heat pump issue too. But I wouldn't lump panel gaps or paint as a reliability issues. Build quality issues yes, but not making a car unreliable.

It also seems like people are more picky when it comes to defects in a Tesla versus say a BMW. Or maybe they are more vocal about it?

 

[SuperMatt]

The idea of reliability does seem to have changed. When it comes to cars, reliability to me has always been “will it break down on the way to work?”

Now it’s minor maintenance issues and wind noise?

Tesla has surpassed other makers in many ways, but consistent build quality should be a higher priority than a $12,000 “upgrade” to robot-driving…

 

[Cmaier]

It also seems like people are more picky when it comes to defects in a Tesla versus say a BMW. Or maybe they are more vocal about it?

I have had more defects in my tesla than in my BMWs, so…

Only think that i;ve had go wrong between 2 BMWs is an air vent louvre broke.

In that same period of time, my tesla: loose wheel axle nut (by far the most dangerous defect), cracked wheel (on the inside, not from external damage), broken MCU (that one took the longest to repair - around a month, but replacement supported LTE, so that’s nice), broken heater, many many bad body gaps, both visor mirror covers broken hinges, sirius radio regularly stops working or disappears, once every few months car refuses to turn on, car reboots at random times, center monitor yellowing (happening again after UV repair), TPU controller died (replacing was the new TPU which monitors wheels independently, so I enjoy that), grating noise when opening/closing one window, door handles don’t extend properly (multiple times), 12 volt battery died, garage door opener randomly decides not to auto-fire, and, my favorite, when door handle on one door got hot from the sun, the door actually OPENED while I was driving.

 

[DT]

The idea of reliability does seem to have changed. When it comes to cars, reliability to me has always been “will it break down on the way to work?”

Now it’s minor maintenance issues and wind noise?

Tesla has surpassed other makers in many ways, but consistent build quality should be a higher priority than a $12,000 “upgrade” to robot-driving…

And apparently panel gaps and paint issues, which are clearly aesthetic concerns if they don't affect functionality, i.e., a panel gap that causes door or hatch operation issues vs. busting out a micrometer and measuring 0.5mm deviation between hood edges

I've actually seen some CR questionnaires, specifically for the auto industry, and they go from "Days in service ..." to "Overall experience ..." the latter which create some subjective analytic noise.

That being said, even with the improvement over the last couple of years, they [Tesla] clearly have plenty of room for improvement in the QA process, especially pre-delivery (they seem to do a decent job of follow up service to adjust things to a reasonable level of satisfaction - but that shouldn't be necessary). And, like @diamond.g indicated, I've seen (at least via lots of good quality photos), paint people complain about, and I was surprised, it looked like good, modern, water-based paint execution, on par with my last several vehicles that included Toyota, Lexus and BMW.

 

[DT]

I'd just like to take the time to say: modern paint is sort of poop in general

 

[diamond.g]

The idea of reliability does seem to have changed. When it comes to cars, reliability to me has always been “will it break down on the way to work?”

Now it’s minor maintenance issues and wind noise?

Tesla has surpassed other makers in many ways, but consistent build quality should be a higher priority than a $12,000 “upgrade” to robot-driving…

I wonder if they are going to release FSD v10 wider, then start the whole Early Access Program testing of v11 (with single stack) where once v11 is good they will raise the price again.

I have had more defects in my tesla than in my BMWs, so…

Only think that i;ve had go wrong between 2 BMWs is an air vent louvre broke.

In that same period of time, my tesla: loose wheel axle nut (by far the most dangerous defect), cracked wheel (on the inside, not from external damage), broken MCU (that one took the longest to repair - around a month, but replacement supported LTE, so that’s nice), broken heater, many many bad body gaps, both visor mirror covers broken hinges, sirius radio regularly stops working or disappears, once every few months car refuses to turn on, car reboots at random times, center monitor yellowing (happening again after UV repair), TPU controller died (replacing was the new TPU which monitors wheels independently, so I enjoy that), grating noise when opening/closing one window, door handles don’t extend properly (multiple times), 12 volt battery died, garage door opener randomly decides not to auto-fire, and, my favorite, when door handle on one door got hot from the sun, the door actually OPENED while I was driving.

So why have you kept the vehicle if it has given you all these problems?

 

[Cmaier]

I wonder if they are going to release FSD v10 wider, then start the whole Early Access Program testing of v11 (with single stack) where once v11 is good they will raise the price again.


So why have you kept the vehicle if it has given you all these problems?

Because the alternative would be to replace it. It’s paid for, most of the issues I didn’t have to pay to resolve (though a bunch remain unresolved, and I did have to pay for the wheel). Replacing the car would cost a lot of money, and it’s more economical to continue to drive it until the repair costs get to be too much (e.g. the battery dies or it needs some other very expensive repair). (Tesla quotes me around $14k trade-in. Figure $60k for a replacement. Repairs are running around $1500 per year now that my extended warranty ended, but sample size is small). Note that in the early days, Tesla service was great and minimized most of the hassles associated with the constant need for service. That hasn’t been the case in the last 2 or 3 years.

I haven’t kept up on alternatives, but when I am in the market to replace it (presumably within the next few years) I’d definitely buy something other than a Tesla as long as it has >320 mile range, supports wireless CarPlay, is big enough for my 6’3” frame, and has a 0-60 time sub 5 seconds. I keep hoping the Apple car comes out by then

 

[DT]

Jeebus dude, I'm not sure when all this started/was occuring, but I would've either Lemon Law'ed (if within the time allowance) or sold/traded, that's certainly beyond what I would consider reasonable service level.

Hahaha, we had a nice new X5 4.4i Sport, went into the shop 3 times in the first 30 days - after some scorched earth, I wound up with an "extended loaner" BMW 3-series (nice loaded sedan) and they brought in their external technical support, got fixed for good

 

[diamond.g]

Because the alternative would be to replace it. It’s paid for, most of the issues I didn’t have to pay to resolve (though a bunch remain unresolved, and I did have to pay for the wheel). Replacing the car would cost a lot of money, and it’s more economical to continue to drive it until the repair costs get to be too much (e.g. the battery dies or it needs some other very expensive repair). (Tesla quotes me around $14k trade-in. Figure $60k for a replacement. Repairs are running around $1500 per year now that my extended warranty ended, but sample size is small). Note that in the early days, Tesla service was great and minimized most of the hassles associated with the constant need for service. That hasn’t been the case in the last 2 or 3 years.

I haven’t kept up on alternatives, but when I am in the market to replace it (presumably within the next few years) I’d definitely buy something other than a Tesla as long as it has >320 mile range, supports wireless CarPlay, is big enough for my 6’3” frame, and has a 0-60 time sub 5 seconds. I keep hoping the Apple car comes out by then

You wouldn’t consider going back to a petrol car?

 

[Apple fanboy]

You wouldn’t consider going back to a petrol car?

That is really the question isn’t it. I know a couple of people looking to replace their electric cars (I-pace and Model 3). Neither are considering an ICE.

 

[Cmaier]

You wouldn’t consider going back to a petrol car?

Oh hell no.

I still own a BMW X3 (my wife drives it), but the advantages of electric are too profound to buy another car with an ICE.

 

[SuperMatt]

You wouldn’t consider going back to a petrol car?

i would never consider going back to petrol, and I have a cheap EV with only 100 mile range. It‘s a much better experience.

 

[DT]

You wouldn’t consider going back to a petrol car?

I know you didn't ask me, but I won't.

You probably don't know me too well, but I'm what I guess you would call a car enthusiast. I've had quite a few cars, a number of high performance vehicles, some insanely setup "tuner" cars, I've road raced, done show tours - I'm pretty serious about my love of cars which of course started with gas vehicles - but I am all in on EV tech from here on out.

 

[quagmire]

I will and won't.

By that I mean, if I ever can afford the C8 Z06, it's going to be in my garage. But for a daily, it's going to be hard to go back to ICE.

 

[diamond.g]

That is really the question isn’t it. I know a couple of people looking to replace their electric cars (I-pace and Model 3). Neither are considering an ICE.

Oh hell no.

I still own a BMW X3 (my wife drives it), but the advantages of electric are too profound to buy another car with an ICE.

i would never consider going back to petrol, and I have a cheap EV with only 100 mile range. It‘s a much better experience.

I was just wondering, especially with the range requirement, seems like most inexpensive EVs are topping out at around 300 miles. I wouldn’t want to go back to ICE (aside for some specific vehicles once the kids are out of the house).

 

[SuperMatt]

I was just wondering, especially with the range requirement, seems like most inexpensive EVs are topping out at around 300 miles. I wouldn’t want to go back to ICE (aside for some specific vehicles once the kids are out of the house).

I got my EV in 2016. The landscape was: Tesla gets you long range at a price of about $80K, or you could get a cheaper EV from VW or Nissan for about $25K. I chose the latter (VW e-Golf) and with the $7500 tax credit, it ended up as cheap as a “regular” VW Golf.

There is a growing number of number of entrants now in the $30-$40K price range with over 200 mile range. If I was buying today instead of 6 years ago, I’d probably be looking at those instead of what I bought then.