Gurman: Airpods with cameras close to ready

[Nycturne]

Yeah someone is misleading us, either Apple or app developers that listen when they say they are not. This is where we would trust Apple's security to ensure they can't cheat it when the mic is turned off in the security settings somehow but it's clearly not working, at least on my end and I have several verifiable instances where I know nothing else could've been listening on items I've also never texted or googled.

The thing really boils down to this, IMO:

Apple requires all app developers to request permissions from the OS to get access to the mic. And when the mic is active, the orange light will be on. Unless app developers are literally shipping OS exploits to bypass that, and exploiting the external microcontroller that drives the indicator lights (as Cliff points out), I believe that it is unlikely app developers are listening to you without you having given microphone permissions at some point. And because Apple is baking in the indicator lights into the microcontroller, it seems unlikely Apple would be that overtly malicious. In my experience doing dev work at big companies, this is a sort of maliciousness that almost always comes from the top, which Tim doesn't strike me as the type. If anything, Tim strikes me as a private person, who pushed the privacy initiatives precisely because he's a private person. So I'm still dubious of the claim here, as it requires some extraordinary maliciousness and/or incompetence on the part of at least 2 parties.

I mean, consider the phenomenon of Doomscrolling, and the algorithms that are built to basically keep you scrolling. Why did that happen? Someone wanted to increase the time spent on Facebook, so that Facebook could sell more ad spots. That's it. But we've got a whole new slang word, and societal phenomenon from the simple thing of "more time on service = good, more time = more ads". And we got all these ugly side effects as a result of "make _this_ line go up".

And remember the fact that Target was able to just use _predictive models_ based on shopping history to suggest pregnancy-related items to a teenage girl. Before she even knew she was pregnant. There are certain trends in human behavior that are predictable enough to be creepy and uncanny without having to record your voice to do it. And that was over a decade ago. Consider how much more data we've fed into similar models, using related behaviors, and not having to rely just on one behavior (like purchase history). https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmi...teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/

Now. Are there companies that are willing to take advantage of what you _do_ give them? Sure. But it may not be the sources you think they are, and it may be like what happened to push notifications: You enable push notifications for DoorDash and Uber Eats so you know when food will show up, but then they use it as a side-channel to poke you to get more repeat business because some internal study pointed out that if you poke them around meal times, you'll get some percentage of extra orders. I fully expect the same with giving things microphone access, anything it does record and sent up to the cloud could very well wind up with the speech-to-text content in some advertising archive out there.

 

[Eric]

The thing really boils down to this, IMO:

Apple requires all app developers to request permissions from the OS to get access to the mic. And when the mic is active, the orange light will be on. Unless app developers are literally shipping OS exploits to bypass that, and exploiting the external microcontroller that drives the indicator lights (as Cliff points out), I believe that it is unlikely app developers are listening to you without you having given microphone permissions at some point. And because Apple is baking in the indicator lights into the microcontroller, it seems unlikely Apple would be that overtly malicious. In my experience doing dev work at big companies, this is a sort of maliciousness that almost always comes from the top, which Tim doesn't strike me as the type. If anything, Tim strikes me as a private person, who pushed the privacy initiatives precisely because he's a private person. So I'm still dubious of the claim here, as it requires some extraordinary maliciousness and/or incompetence on the part of at least 2 parties.

I mean, consider the phenomenon of Doomscrolling, and the algorithms that are built to basically keep you scrolling. Why did that happen? Someone wanted to increase the time spent on Facebook, so that Facebook could sell more ad spots. That's it. But we've got a whole new slang word, and societal phenomenon from the simple thing of "more time on service = good, more time = more ads". And we got all these ugly side effects as a result of "make _this_ line go up".

And remember the fact that Target was able to just use _predictive models_ based on shopping history to suggest pregnancy-related items to a teenage girl. Before she even knew she was pregnant. There are certain trends in human behavior that are predictable enough to be creepy and uncanny without having to record your voice to do it. And that was over a decade ago. Consider how much more data we've fed into similar models, using related behaviors, and not having to rely just on one behavior (like purchase history). https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmi...teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/

Now. Are there companies that are willing to take advantage of what you _do_ give them? Sure. But it may not be the sources you think they are, and it may be like what happened to push notifications: You enable push notifications for DoorDash and Uber Eats so you know when food will show up, but then they use it as a side-channel to poke you to get more repeat business because some internal study pointed out that if you poke them around meal times, you'll get some percentage of extra orders. I fully expect the same with giving things microphone access, anything it does record and sent up to the cloud could very well wind up with the speech-to-text content in some advertising archive out there.

While I know they have these measures in place with the iPhone, again, it clearly is not working. I have taken every known measure to ensure my mic is off and am quite aware of the light being on while it is supposedly recording.

I also don't agree that it's some how picked up on my scrolling or through any other means when there are very specific keywords I've only ever spoken, never typed or happened upon them like there is some sort of magic going on. It's not really a matter of who is right here, I am telling you point blank that this is exactly what has happened to me several times, there are also several other reports of this out there.

 

[Herdfan]

I have taken every known measure to ensure my mic is off and am quite aware of the light being on while it is supposedly recording.

Maybe I am going too deep in the weeds here, but what if it isn’t “recording”, but just listening in real time at which point the app is converting what it hears to text.

But then the app doesn’t send the text until you access it so it can be hidden with other packets.

Does it light up when you say Hey Siri?

 

[Cmaier]

Maybe I am going too deep in the weeds here, but what if it isn’t “recording”, but just listening in real time at which point the app is converting what it hears to text.

But then the app doesn’t send the text until you access it so it can be hidden with other packets.

Does it light up when you say Hey Siri?

Trust me. I had a billion reasons to find that this was possible. And the expert who was helping me cost a ton. Doesn’t happen.

Now, a certain other company (doesn’t make phones), on the other hand, definitely sends data in response to voice.

 

[Eric]

Trust me. I had a billion reasons to find that this was possible. And the expert who was helping me cost a ton. Doesn’t happen.

Now, a certain other company (doesn’t make phones), on the other hand, definitely sends data in response to voice.

Count yourself lucky and am glad to hear it. For me, and my iPhone, I can assure it is happening and I don't have to spend a cent to know it.

Interesting feedback on from all walks on this over at MR, seems I'm not alone here.

Is your iPhone listening to you?

Account vacated.

forums.macrumors.com

 

[Eric]

Maybe I am going too deep in the weeds here, but what if it isn’t “recording”, but just listening in real time at which point the app is converting what it hears to text.

But then the app doesn’t send the text until you access it so it can be hidden with other packets.

Does it light up when you say Hey Siri?

All I have to do now is ask my wife "hey, did you refill the hummingbird feeder?" and within 10 minutes I'm getting hummingbird posts on my Instagram feed. All mics are off for all apps on all phones.