Is it exaggeration to suggest the USA is at a crossroads?

[Huntn]

I generally opposed the electoral college because it gives extra votes to small states, and gives “winner takes all” electoral counts in most states. I didn’t realize before how ripe it is for cheating and exploitation, but Jan 6 showed us that exactly. We should have National popular vote for President, period.

I’m questioning winner take all when it results in 50% being disenfranchised, especially when their vote actually represented over 50% of the total vote.

 

[SuperMatt]

I’m questioning winner take all when it results in 50% being disenfranchised, especially when their vote actually represented over 50% of the total vote.

In most states, if you win the most votes, you get all the electoral votes for that state. That is what leads to swing states. If every state sent electors proportional to the vote tally, you wouldn’t have to worry about swing states.

Also, if you win a state 65-35 and you get all its electors, and another state by 51-49 and get all its electors… you really aren’t representing the will of the people very well. It’s been decades since a Republican president won the popular vote, but we‘ve had several Republican presidents during that time.

 

[User.168]

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[SuperMatt]

Ohio has joined Michigan in pushing back against gerrymandering. Republicans put forth a map that would give them 12 of 15 seats in the legislature, despite only getting 55% of the vote. 55% of the vote = 80% of the seats in the legislature? Sure that seems fair…

The Ohio Supreme Court struck down a congressional map skewed to favor Republicans on Friday, ruling that it was the equivalent of a dealer stacking the deck, and sent it back to state lawmakers to try again.

The map would have given Republicans an advantage of 12 seats to three in elections for the House of Representatives, even though the G.O.P. has lately won only about 55 percent of the statewide popular vote.

“This is not what Ohio voters wanted or expected,’’ the court said of the map.

Mapmakers in Ohio are not allowed to unduly favor one party in redistricting, after voters overwhelmingly passed an amendment to the Ohio Constitution in 2018. The proposed map was drawn by Republicans in the Legislature and passed without Democratic support, and the court rejected it in a 4-to-3 decision.

Ohio Supreme Court Strikes Down Republican Gerrymander of Map (Published 2022)

The congressional map would have given Republicans an advantage of 12 seats to three in elections for the House of Representatives.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Huntn]

Ohio has joined Michigan in pushing back against gerrymandering. Republicans put forth a map that would give them 12 of 15 seats in the legislature, despite only getting 55% of the vote. 55% of the vote = 80% of the seats in the legislature? Sure that seems fair…

Ohio Supreme Court Strikes Down Republican Gerrymander of Map (Published 2022)

The congressional map would have given Republicans an advantage of 12 seats to three in elections for the House of Representatives.

www.nytimes.com

And Texas?

 

[Huntn]

I probably don’t have to tell anyone here, but for perspective if you want a gage how far we have fallen as a Nation, in 50 years:

• Not only would POS DJT have never stood a chance in Holy Hell of being chosen to head the GOP and then elected as POTUS,
• But right now he’d also be in jail for what he has done.

So I have some minimalist hope that charges against the criminals surrounding Trump might stick, but the pessimist n me says nope, he, they will walk and the Nation will continue to unravel in this process. I mean what kind of positive expectations can you possibly have when 40% of voting adults think a POS is the answer to our troubles?

 

[Huntn]

Is a Civil War Ahead?​

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/is-a-civil-war-ahead]

The edifice of American exceptionalism has always wobbled on a shoddy foundation of self-delusion, and yet most Americans have readily accepted the commonplace that the United States is the world’s oldest continuous democracy. That serene assertion has now collapsed.[/HEADING]

On January 6, 2021, when white supremacists, militia members, and maga faithful took inspiration from the President and stormed the Capitol in order to overturn the results of the 2020 Presidential election, leaving legislators and the Vice-President essentially held hostage, we ceased to be a full democracy. Instead, we now inhabit a liminal status that scholars call “anocracy.” That is, for the first time in two hundred years, we are suspended between democracy and autocracy. And that sense of uncertainty radically heightens the likelihood of episodic bloodletting in America, and even the risk of civil war.

 

[throAU]

I'm not an American (but because your politics seem to drive the rest of the world) but I voted "Civil War".

I just do not see a way for the system as it is to be fixed. It's rotten to the core; you're essentially a two party system and it appears that neither of them represent anyone's best interests really other than the party itself. Both major parties seem more interested in sowing division and driving a wedge/making the other guy look bad than actually getting anything done. Because... whilst the people are fighting amongst themselves, they aren't fighting back against the tyranny. News flash: both sides are assholes. Stop fighting each other over which one is the bigger asshole and fix the political process that put them there.

Looks like the only way to get anywhere near being elected (due to the campaign trail funding required, the media coverage that's so partisan, etc.) is to be so far detached from regular people you may as well be an alien. I mean if you need hundreds of millions in funding to have a chance... you've just got no idea what most people are dealing with.

To be fair the same situation seems to exist in most current "democracies" or is headed that way. But the USA is the leading indicator on the level of corruption and decay that has been eating away at modern democracy.

I doubt either side's leader is anything more than a puppet to the defence industry/federal reserve bank. Last guy to challenge the fed in a serious way got shot for it. Eisenhower warned about the military industrial complex taking over back in the 60s. It happened.

 

[Huntn]

I'm not an American (but because your politics seem to drive the rest of the world) but I voted "Civil War".

I just do not see a way for the system as it is to be fixed. It's rotten to the core; you're essentially a two party system and it appears that neither of them represent anyone's best interests really other than the party itself. Both major parties seem more interested in sowing division and driving a wedge/making the other guy look bad than actually getting anything done. Because... whilst the people are fighting amongst themselves, they aren't fighting back against the tyranny. News flash: both sides are assholes. Stop fighting each other over which one is the bigger asshole and fix the political process that put them there.

Looks like the only way to get anywhere near being elected (due to the campaign trail funding required, the media coverage that's so partisan, etc.) is to be so far detached from regular people you may as well be an alien. I mean if you need hundreds of millions in funding to have a chance... you've just got no idea what most people are dealing with.

To be fair the same situation seems to exist in most current "democracies" or is headed that way. But the USA is the leading indicator on the level of corruption and decay that has been eating away at modern democracy.

I doubt either side's leader is anything more than a puppet to the defence industry/federal reserve bank. Last guy to challenge the fed in a serious way got shot for it. Eisenhower warned about the military industrial complex taking over back in the 60s. It happened.

Food for thought: Any organization, system, set up by humans is only as good as the people who set it up and function within it. It’s possible with small groups and selectivity you could end up with a good result, but when you are talking about a million average people, the odds are against getting a good outcome. We (enough of us) are just too selfish, greedy, uncaring and stupid.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I'm not an American (but because your politics seem to drive the rest of the world) but I voted "Civil War".

I just do not see a way for the system as it is to be fixed. It's rotten to the core; you're essentially a two party system and it appears that neither of them represent anyone's best interests really other than the party itself. Both major parties seem more interested in sowing division and driving a wedge/making the other guy look bad than actually getting anything done. Because... whilst the people are fighting amongst themselves, they aren't fighting back against the tyranny. News flash: both sides are assholes. Stop fighting each other over which one is the bigger asshole and fix the political process that put them there.

Looks like the only way to get anywhere near being elected (due to the campaign trail funding required, the media coverage that's so partisan, etc.) is to be so far detached from regular people you may as well be an alien. I mean if you need hundreds of millions in funding to have a chance... you've just got no idea what most people are dealing with.

To be fair the same situation seems to exist in most current "democracies" or is headed that way. But the USA is the leading indicator on the level of corruption and decay that has been eating away at modern democracy.

I doubt either side's leader is anything more than a puppet to the defence industry/federal reserve bank. Last guy to challenge the fed in a serious way got shot for it. Eisenhower warned about the military industrial complex taking over back in the 60s. It happened.

While I do believe Trumpism needs to be definitively crushed, I can also see "You need to fight for that thing that isn’t working for most people!" as a valid source of apathy and cynicism. It’s the ultimate battle for the lesser evil that isn’t promising much more than that, a storm wall against the greater evil. Promises beyond that made but a lousy track record of delivering.

Our government is a corruption addict and no matter how many times we’ve tried to sit them down for an intervention, when they get to the part where they agree to go into treatment they go "Can I go to the bathroom first?", we let them go and then they escape out the window.

 

[Huntn]

While I do believe Trumpism needs to be definitively crushed, I can also see "You need to fight for that thing that isn’t working for most people!" as a valid source of apathy and cynicism. It’s the ultimate battle for the lesser evil that isn’t promising much more than that, a storm wall against the greater evil. Promises beyond that made but a lousy track record of delivering.

Our government is a corruption addict and no matter how many times we’ve tried to sit them down for an intervention, when they get to the part where they agree to go into treatment they go "Can I go to the bathroom first?", we let them go and then they escape out the window.

You are a true anarchist. Not said with a mean tone.

 

[throAU]

While I do believe Trumpism needs to be definitively crushed, I can also see "You need to fight for that thing that isn’t working for most people!" as a valid source of apathy and cynicism. It’s the ultimate battle for the lesser evil that isn’t promising much more than that, a storm wall against the greater evil. Promises beyond that made but a lousy track record of delivering.

I think the crux of it is that as bad as "Trumpism" is - its merely a symptom of the problem and the root cause. Both parties are trash; and the fact that the system seems to result in the current candidates supposedly being the best leaders the USA have to offer is broken.

 

[User.45]

In most states, if you win the most votes, you get all the electoral votes for that state. That is what leads to swing states. If every state sent electors proportional to the vote tally, you wouldn’t have to worry about swing states.

Also, if you win a state 65-35 and you get all its electors, and another state by 51-49 and get all its electors… you really aren’t representing the will of the people very well. It’s been decades since a Republican president won the popular vote, but we‘ve had several Republican presidents during that time.

Agree. I see why the senate is designed the way it is, so larger states don't impose their wills on the smaller ones. But I can't see what the justification is for allowing presidential elections to be won by other than the popular vote.

 

[SuperMatt]

Agree. I see why the senate is designed the way it is, so larger states don't impose their wills on the smaller ones. But I can't see what the justification is for allowing presidential elections to be won by other than the popular vote.

Electoral College and the Senate have a common root. Southern states were 40% slaves, who weren’t allowed to vote.

Also, the founders thought “average folks” were too uneducated to pick a president.

Let’s not forget that when new states were created (by Congress), slavery was also a big consideration in those decisions. White people (at the time, more specifically white landowners) are over-represented in America’s government on purpose. It’s the way the system was created. This is what the anti-CRT bills are about. They want to whitewash the parts of history that the 1619 project drew attention to.

Why Was the Electoral College Created? | HISTORY

The Founding Fathers had to compromise when it came to devising a system to elect the president.

www.history.com

 

[Huntn]

I think the crux of it is that as bad as "Trumpism" is - its merely a symptom of the problem and the root cause. Both parties are trash; and the fact that the system seems to result in the current candidates supposedly being the best leaders the USA have to offer is broken.

Actually it sounds like you are saying human beings are trash, which I am not saying in a critical manner, just observing, which supports my idea that human societies trying to serve several hundred million people are prone to failure because of one simple idea Me>We, and not We>Me.

Now that said, if there is a party that exists, or could be elected that truly or even potentially stands for “American ideals” of Democracy, Equality, Liberty, the only entity that exists that has hope of being elected and pushing for those standards, that you can actually vote for in 2022, that would be the Democrats. Or you can make a false equivalence argument, sit at home do nothing and let the Dark Side win.

 

[throAU]

Actually it sounds like you are saying human beings are trash, which I am not saying in a critical manner, just observing, which supports my idea that human societies trying to serve several hundred million people are prone to failure because of one simple idea Me>We, and not We>Me.

Nah, not all humans. Just the ones you have to pick from for president.

 

[Yoused]

Nah, not all humans. Just the ones you have to pick from for president.

I have long said the fact that a person wants to be president ought to be the first disqualifier.

 

[Huntn]

The sermon of the day: WE ARE IN DEEP SHIT.

• As a civilization the United States is the equivalent of a human being whose body is 40% riddled with cancer, most likely it’s terminal.
• On Jan 6, Republican Leadership seemed to be dismayed that a Trump crowd was told by Trump to March to the Capitol and fight like Hell!, trying to overturn the peaceful transfer of Presidential power resulting from the outcome of a legitimate election.
• Jan 7, Federal Marshalls should have raided Mar a Lago and taken The Head Crook and all of the stolen evidence from the Whitehouse into custody as head of the resurrection on charges of Treason. He should be in jail while they work on his charges. He’s just too dangerous, not to.
• And disasterously what should not have happened was the Republican Party looking at their spiked Kool-Aid swilling base, and deciding that Jan 6 was legitimate political discourse.
• Then we have the CRT losers who don’t want to be reminded of our/their racist history going as far as preferring that their children grow up in ignorance of both our deep past and recent history because some substantial % of them are still racists today.
• The millionaires/billionaire, corporatists are in charge, sucking up all the wealth they can at average citizen‘s expense while rejecting the idea that because of their wealth they should be primary supporters of social programs and actually supporting the civilization they live in, that gave them the means to become wealthy.
• The Trump Anarchists who despise authority, or their lives, begrudging success or lamenting their own personal lack of effort, decided that breaking bad, investing in the Head Crook was the way to make something of themselves before their despicable, pathetic lives are over.
  
• Then there is COVID Stupid, page upon page devoted to that, arguably the real issue is just STUPID.
• And finally Democracy in the US is on deaths door, some portion of our citizens, some portion of Christians, who are embedded, aligned with the Republican party, THAT DON’T BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY because if they can’t get their way to shove their beliefs down other people’s throats and/or a perceived advantage at other people‘s expense, then fuck it, tear it down as long as I can create an advantage that is mine. Who cares if we end up living in a ruin?

 

[Yoused]

As a civilization the United States is the equivalent of a human being whose body is 40% riddled with cancer, most likely it’s terminal.

Cancer in 0.5% of the body can be enough to finish a person off. On the other hand, people have occaionally been known to do just fine with some right massive tumors. Excising our social gangreene promises to be an unpleasant experience, and getting all the poisons out of our system looks to be a major challenge, as those poisons have saturated and become deeply embedded in our vital organs.

 

[Huntn]

Cancer in 0.5% of the body can be enough to finish a person off. On the other hand, people have occaionally been known to do just fine with some right massive tumors. Excising our social gangreene promises to be an unpleasant experience, and getting all the poisons out of our system looks to be a major challenge, as those poisons have saturated and become deeply embedded in our vital organs.

I like, but don’t like the reality of your analogy.