M3 core counts and performance


Look at the battery life for M3 Pro. Over 30 hrs the longest battery that PCMag ever tested.

This was playing back a 720p video at 50% brightness. It beat all other 7 laptops including M3 Max. The PC laptops were best by 10hrs while being faster than those
That's a cool achievement but maybe not a super useful metric
When I had the M1 Max 16", I would sometimes use it as an overkill iPod while working on my work Mac. I once noticed the system was using <1W playing music with the display off, which meant it could just about reach 100 hours of runtime on a full charge 😂
 
To their credit, MaxTech are curious! They just don't have enough experience/domain knowledge to match their curiosity. But hey everyone starts somewhere, and maybe they'll accrue enough over time. Some of the people at LTT are better (e.g. Antony) and they clearly have the ambition to be more (LTT labs). But of course we have all the other issues there. Maybe they'll get better too. Gamers Nexus has the technical knowledge but uhh ... I wouldn't count on them reviewing Mac hardware anytime soon given their ... viewpoints about Apple and Macs.

Once Vulkan is up and running on Asahi Linux, one test that might be fun and actually kinda worthwhile would be to compare Windows games/benchmarks under Proton for Asahi vs other Linux laptops/desktops. True the Apple GPU is optimized for the Metal API and of course there's the x86 to ARM translation for the Mac, so I'm not claiming its a perfect Apples to Apples, but they are both running under emulation, both under DX to Vulkan. Maybe when good Qualcomm laptops come out it would be an even worthier test since they'll be ARM and for the GPUs one could test against both the Qualcomm iGPU and, for some models, dGPUs. As per @Jimmyjames ' wishes you could absolutely even now run SPEC on Linux for both though and eliminate differences in compiler and OS. Just something I thought would be at least fun to see and still be more than a little bit informative.
Even if they didn’t have deep technical knowledge, but just a passing interest, things would be better. I’ve seen several reviews, and they talk about gaming. Their review game is Shadow of the Tomb Raider. Nothing wrong with that game, but it isn’t modern, and it isn’t optimised for Apple Silicon. Couldn’t they have tried Baldurs Gate 3? Geekerwan did. So frustrating.
 
Even if they didn’t have deep technical knowledge, but just a passing interest, things would be better. I’ve seen several reviews, and they talk about gaming. Their review game is Shadow of the Tomb Raider. Nothing wrong with that game, but it isn’t modern, and it isn’t optimised for Apple Silicon. Couldn’t they have tried Baldurs Gate 3? Geekerwan did. So frustrating.
Part of the issue is that most Mac games, including BG3, don't have a formal benchmark test that you can just run. Shadow of the Tomb Raider does. So it gets used still. For BG3 and most other games you have to set up the same save and situation across multiple devices and measure the FPS yourself. A lot more work. When review sites do large scale games testing on PC, they're generally sticking to games where the benchmark tooling is builtin. I mean I agree with you, but that's why.
 
Part of the issue is that most Mac games, including BG3, don't have a formal benchmark test that you can just run. Shadow of the Tomb Raider does. So it gets used still. For BG3 and most other games you have to set up the same save and situation across multiple devices and measure the FPS yourself. A lot more work. When review sites do large scale games testing on PC, they're generally sticking to games where the benchmark tooling is builtin.
That’s a good point.
 
Could be, I’m just not interested in Linux though! Lol.
Aye, but I think could still tell us something interesting about the underlying hardware. The Linux part is really just to make sure the tests happen on a more even playing field, take out the differences in OS and graphics API etc ... That would be the goal anyway. It’s less about performance on Linux for its own sake but more so if we use Linux as a common platform, what can that tell us about comparative performance?
 
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Apple tells The Verge that there will be no 27" iMac. Which either means they are moving entirely away from large high-end AIO's, or that when they eventually release a large iMac it will be >27".
I 100% believe it's the former, and it's not "moving away" present tense, it's "that train left the station already". Apple kept selling 27" Intel iMacs as current products right up till the day they launched the Mac Studio and Studio Display, and it seems obvious that the two events were linked - they feel Studio + Studio Display fills the high end 27" compact desktop niche in their product lineup, and Mini + Studio Display the low end.

Any time things like this change, you can find some people who are put out by it. But in the broader picture, I think it's the right move. 27" iMacs were always awkward products, IMO. It's not really great to bundle a high end display in with your high end desktop computer, lots of people prefer to source their own display and/or upgrade it on a different schedule than the computer. The main benefits were 2 less cables and slightly less desktop footprint, but the downside was that the product was not well adapted to the needs of the rest of the user base who don't care quite that much about an ultra-clean desktop.
 
I 100% believe it's the former, and it's not "moving away" present tense, it's "that train left the station already". Apple kept selling 27" Intel iMacs as current products right up till the day they launched the Mac Studio and Studio Display, and it seems obvious that the two events were linked - they feel Studio + Studio Display fills the high end 27" compact desktop niche in their product lineup, and Mini + Studio Display the low end.

Any time things like this change, you can find some people who are put out by it. But in the broader picture, I think it's the right move. 27" iMacs were always awkward products, IMO. It's not really great to bundle a high end display in with your high end desktop computer, lots of people prefer to source their own display and/or upgrade it on a different schedule than the computer. The main benefits were 2 less cables and slightly less desktop footprint, but the downside was that the product was not well adapted to the needs of the rest of the user base who don't care quite that much about an ultra-clean desktop.
Fundamentally I agree but the other advantage of the 27” iMac was that if that was the display you wanted and you didn’t mind updating it with the computer, it was also more economical.

Having said that I am annoyed by all the complaints I see suddenly feeling like one has to buy a Studio display with the studio when as you say the whole point is that one doesn’t! It’s true that for the one specific use case the iMac was cheaper than the current Studio + Studio combo, but the whole point is that you have the option to be more flexible and cheaper than even the iMac.

Back in the day, I did mention to the “headless iMac” proselytizers (who I mostly agreed with) that their assertions of better economics only applied if you wanted a non-Apple display and especially if you only wanted to upgrade one or the other, display or computer, but not both. Apple of course popularized the both option by making it really the only option for middle ground performance. So now I find myself mostly getting annoyed with those in the Apple and even reviewer community who contend that the Studio is a bad deal because you have to buy a Studio display with it. One, no you don’t have to buy a Studio display, two you may not have to buy a display at all. The “headless iMac” agitators were largely right!

Sorry rant over.
 
Sorry to bring up memory again, it’s still bugging me 😅

I’m excited that Apple is working hard to make gaming a thing on Mac. All of the progress made with Apple GPUs, Metal, game dev tooling, new AAAs on iOS and macOS etc. is great to see. I think the ecosystem as a whole could become the best place to game as it allows for games that span all devices - iPhone, iPad, Mac, Apple TV and Vision (this is something only Apple can do thanks to the shared hardware/software platform). Apple could turn gaming on its head in the coming years if all goes well.

So… with all that said, how exactly do they expect Mac to be taken seriously as a gaming platform when all the consumer friendly options don’t have enough damn memory? All standard configs of iMac, Air and base Pro have insufficient memory for modern titles. It’s maddening.
 
Sorry to bring up memory again, it’s still bugging me 😅

I’m excited that Apple is working hard to make gaming a thing on Mac. All of the progress made with Apple GPUs, Metal, game dev tooling, new AAAs on iOS and macOS etc. is great to see. I think the ecosystem as a whole could become the best place to game as it allows for games that span all devices - iPhone, iPad, Mac, Apple TV and Vision (this is something only Apple can do thanks to the shared hardware/software platform). Apple could turn gaming on its head in the coming years if all goes well.

So… with all that said, how exactly do they expect Mac to be taken seriously as a gaming platform when all the consumer friendly options don’t have enough damn memory? All standard configs of iMac, Air and base Pro have insufficient memory for modern titles. It’s maddening.
Yes, nothing to add except penny pinching could undermine all their efforts. Short sighted.
 
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Any time things like this change, you can find some people who are put out by it. But in the broader picture, I think it's the right move. 27" iMacs were always awkward products, IMO. It's not really great to bundle a high end display in with your high end desktop computer, lots of people prefer to source their own display and/or upgrade it on a different schedule than the computer. The main benefits were 2 less cables and slightly less desktop footprint, but the downside was that the product was not well adapted to the needs of the rest of the user base who don't care quite that much about an ultra-clean desktop.
Fundamentally I agree but the other advantage of the 27” iMac was that if that was the display you wanted and you didn’t mind updating it with the computer, it was also more economical.
My take on this is a bit different. To me, the main benefit of the iMac is that it forced you to use a *great* display with your Mac. The display is a huge part of the experience of using a computer, and yet the amount of people who pair a $200 display with their >$2000 computer is mind-blowing to me.
I think this is a result of how products are reviewed, particularly for gaming or “enthusiast” products. The decision of which computer to purchase ends up being a matter of ticking a handful of boxes in a spreadsheet. The issue here is that the specifications that reviewers highlight are not a subset of the specifications that matter for a computer, but rather a subset of the specifications that matter *and can be easily measured*.

So, for displays you often see reviewers talking about size, resolution and refresh rate. Sometimes brightness is also mentioned (rarely), and color or color accuracy is almost never mentioned! For a display! So people end up buying the cheapest 4K 144Hz display on the market, where the darkest black is light gray, viewing angles are shit and brightness goes up to about half the brightness of an Apple display.

I think this became so common that the idea of buying a display priced at $700 (half the cost of a 5K UltraFine) would already be considered outrageously expensive, even by iMac buyers. Even more so for the actual price of the UltraFine 5K. I don’t think the display market has changed much on the right direction this past years, so the situation is the same as a decade ago in this regard. People are going to buy shitty displays for their Macs.

So now I find myself mostly getting annoyed with those in the Apple and even reviewer community who contend that the Studio is a bad deal because you have to buy a Studio display with it. One, no you don’t have to buy a Studio display, two you may not have to buy a display at all. The “headless iMac” agitators were largely right!
To be absolutely fair there aren’t any other true Retina displays in the market other than the Studio and the Pro Display XDR. Most popular size is 27” @4K which is a bad combination for macOS. In fact, there seem to be less 5K (or 4K in smaller size) displays now than in 2015. Seems like the market settled for lower DPI and none other than Apple is pushing higher res monitors.
 
Yes, nothing to add except penny pinching could undermine all their efforts. Short sighted.
Apple really need to push developers to properly support controllers on the iPad and encourage some developers to port some console quality games to it.

The modern iPads blast a Nintendo switch into the weeds, start approximately around the same price, have a much bigger/better display, are useful for other things (including school, etc.) and Apple has the distribution and cross platform ecosystem to make it happen on Mac as well.

Literally all that is missing are some games beyond casual garbage. Divinity Original Sin 2 is a great example but it's maybe a little too far the other way. Some FPS with controller support or a decent quality racing game would be great.
 
I’d be interested in people’s feedback and ideas on the game results in the Geekerwan video. They showed Baldurs Gate 3 on a few Macs, vs some PCs. At 4k, the M3 Max gets 40fps, the 4060 laptop gets 36 fps and the 4080 laptop gets 71 fps. At 1440p the M3 Max gets 77 fps, the 4060 gets 56 and the 4080 gets 78. At 1080p the M3 Max gets 101 fps, the 4060 gets 66 fps and the 4080 gets 86 fps.

What could be the reasons for the M3 Max to beat the 4080 at 1080p, equal it at 1440p and lag it at 4k?

Is it bound by some component? Lacking the raw power of the 4080? Optimisations?
Going back to this, it’s also interesting to see that the M3 Max beats the M2 Ultra In Baldurs Gate 3. Clearly the new Dynamic Caching makes a significant difference on more complex games.
 
Apple really need to push developers to properly support controllers on the iPad and encourage some developers to port some console quality games to it.

The modern iPads blast a Nintendo switch into the weeds, start approximately around the same price, have a much bigger/better display, are useful for other things (including school, etc.) and Apple has the distribution and cross platform ecosystem to make it happen on Mac as well.

Literally all that is missing are some games beyond casual garbage. Divinity Original Sin 2 is a great example but it's maybe a little too far the other way. Some FPS with controller support or a decent quality racing game would be great.
I do believe that are making an effort currently. I hope they continue to.
 
To be absolutely fair there aren’t any other true Retina displays in the market other than the Studio and the Pro Display XDR. Most popular size is 27” @4K which is a bad combination for macOS. In fact, there seem to be less 5K (or 4K in smaller size) displays now than in 2015. Seems like the market settled for lower DPI and none other than Apple is pushing higher res monitors.
When I got the DTK back in 2020 I needed a new display since my Mac Pro was attached to the ancient Thunderbolt display that I'd been using for years. At the time, I didn't have a lot of disposable cash so I bought a cheap 24" 4K LG. It works pretty well at about 185 dpi. Not quite Apple Retina but close enough that I really can't tell the difference. The display cost about $250 at the time I bought it. It looks like the price is up a bit to just under $300 now. Getting a 24" 4K or a 27" 5K is still possible if you are willing to look around.

LG 24UD58-B
 
Big discrepancy between geekerwan and sixcolors in terms of cb2024. Six colours claim 13000+ and geekerwan claim under 10000. Hmmm

Also confused by the uplift rt gives. I was thinking around 6000 or close if sixcolors results hold up. If it’s actually closer to geekerwan, their comparison to the 4060 equals over 4000, which is still very good, but less than a doubling of Peru that Apple suggested.

Maybe the variance in Cinebench 2024 GPU results relates to high power mode?
Matthew Moniz mentions using high power mode in his video


Take a look at this well. 13K too. I suspect it maybe high power mode


Jason Snell said that high power mode didn’t make a difference for him on the tests, but! CB24 might be the odd test where it does. After all Cinebench is one of the few benchmarks that tests sustained loads instead of burst speed. Kicking the fans into high gear is likely to make a bigger difference in the former than the latter.


For some tests, I switched the MacBook Pro into High Power Mode, which is now available on both 14- and 16-inch models in the M3 Max configuration. (Previously, it was only available on 16-inch models.) I didn’t actually find it made much of a difference in the tests I was running, but it sure did make the fans kick in at a very loud volume.

I mean kinda feel like if he had looked at it and it had made a difference he would’ve said, but the above quote is just vague enough that maybe he didn’t test CB in both modes or it being the odd man out didn’t warrant a shoutout.

It’s also just possible that it was just an errant bad run from geekerwan or done during spotlight indexing or some other task. 🙃
 
I 100% believe it's the former, and it's not "moving away" present tense, it's "that train left the station already". Apple kept selling 27" Intel iMacs as current products right up till the day they launched the Mac Studio and Studio Display, and it seems obvious that the two events were linked - they feel Studio + Studio Display fills the high end 27" compact desktop niche in their product lineup, and Mini + Studio Display the low end.

Any time things like this change, you can find some people who are put out by it. But in the broader picture, I think it's the right move. 27" iMacs were always awkward products, IMO. It's not really great to bundle a high end display in with your high end desktop computer, lots of people prefer to source their own display and/or upgrade it on a different schedule than the computer. The main benefits were 2 less cables and slightly less desktop footprint, but the downside was that the product was not well adapted to the needs of the rest of the user base who don't care quite that much about an ultra-clean desktop.
Permit me to offer a different perspective. All of this discomfort (both here and at MR)—with Apple's RAM sizes, SSD sizes, and AIO's vs. separates—isn't about what Apple does and doesn't offer. Instead, it's fundmentally about cost. You can get both the 13" and 15" Airs with 24 GB/2TB, which is enough to cover most uses cases of that form factor (OK, maybe 32 GB would be nice). And you can get both the 14" and 16" MBPs with 128 GB/8TB. You just have to pay for it.

I'm not saying those cost concerns aren't legitimate. I'm saying we should recognize them for what they are.

[This is not necessarily the case with the Ultra Studio and MP—there you might actually need >192 GB RAM, or a more powerful GPU than what Apple offers; but if you want to stay in MacOS you don't have the option to get those.]

Likewise, I'd venture to say the overwhelming majority of those complaining about the lack of a 27" AS iMac aren't doing so because a Mini+ASD setup is unacceptable to them. [Indeed, I agree it's not great to bundle a display with a PC, since the former often has a longer life than the latter] Rather, it's about cost. With the iMac, if you wanted a big, gorgeous screen (which most people would appreciate), yet didn't have heavy computing needs (also the case for most), you could get a 27" entry-level iMac (starting at $1,800). You can do that with the Mini + ASD, but the starting cost is significantly greater ($600 + $1600 = $2200). And I do think that is a legimitate complaint.

I think the real problem is that MacOS renders text differently from Windows, such that a Retina display really is needed for it to look good. And I say that as someone who is looking at a 27" Retina (218 ppi) side-by-side with a 27" 4k (163 ppi) and 24" WUXGA (94 ppi). The differences are clear. Yet while Apple offers consumer-priced PC's, they don't offer consumer-priced Retina displays (something with a BOM and quality comparable to that in the 24" iMac). And no one else does either.

Asking a consumer who's spent, say, $800 on a 16GB/256GB Mini, or $1,200 on a 16GB/256GB M1 Air, to shell out $1,600 for an external display is a lot. And remember the number of consumers that buy machines in this price range is a lot more than the number that buy the higher-end devices, so this impacts a lot of their customers.

Thus Apple has created an OS that requires a Retina display to look its best, without providing a cost-reasonable (for Apple--I'm still thinking >=$800 ) way for consumer (as opposed to prosumer) purchasers to acquire a Retina external montior.

In summary, I think a separate 27" display + computer is a better solution than the iMac, but only if Apple makes that combo as cost-accessible to consumers as the 27" iMac, which they've not done

Anyway, that's my rant on this.
 
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