Male VS Second Class

Huntn

Whatwerewe talk'n about?
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How are the terms, ‘woman’, ‘female’, ‘human’, and ‘she’ regarded especially by our sisters? Positive , neutral, negatively? Continue on with feminine, effeminate, unmanly. They are all variations of the ‘male’ adjective, ‘man’ noun, having originated in male dominated society and today, by some seem to try to designate second class status. Or am I imagining this?
Is there any desire to redefine gender descriptors? Just curious. It might be said that ‘male’, ‘female’ are sexist terms. 🤔
 
If I recall, at one point there was a push to change "Woman, women" to Womyn and Wemyn".

Didn't go anywhere because most people don't seem to care enough.
 
I only have problems with teeing to twist the English language. Just because a word has “man” in it, doesn’t mean it’s only for a single gender. The word is human. Don’t try to change it.
 
If we’re being pedantic, the reason that so many of those have the root man in them because they’re originally derived from the old German/English word “mann” meaning person of either sex. Middle English changed this.


So I guess if you really want to change the language we should go back to some variant of “wer(e)-man” for male humans (yes werewolf comes from the original word were for male, literally wolf man). Woman is derived from wifmann. At some point we dropped the “were” for males. It might’ve happened anyway but you can blame the Norman Conquest.
 
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Words are all about how are being used. In the recent years, the word "female" has been actively used by a certain subculture that shall not be named, usually with negative or derogatory connotation. Some of their representatives argue that this is just a normal language change and that "female" is replacing "woman" in the colloquial English. I instead argue that they are self-entitled pricks who live in their parent's basement. Anyway, due to these connotations, I make my best to avoid using "female" or "male" to refer to humans.

I used to be dismissive of the gender term issues when I was younger, then I went to a conference on that topic and it totally changed my stance. There is very clear neurocognitive evidence that professional terms such as "doctor" are associated with male practitioners. That's what women have to deal with.

That said, as a linguist I am skeptical about engineering language change to be more inclusive. Language is never sexist, it's the language use or connotation is sexist. What good is that if we introduce neutral terms or pronouns to deal with these issues if they develop derogatory or male connotation over time. The only sustainable way to deal with these issues is to reset the expectations. Hence the importance of DEI, as long as it is done well. We need more women in traditionally male-dominated roles.
 
That said, as a linguist I am skeptical about engineering language change to be more inclusive. Language is never sexist, it's the language use or connotation is sexist. What good is that if we introduce neutral terms or pronouns to deal with these issues if they develop derogatory or male connotation over time. The only sustainable way to deal with these issues is to reset the expectations. Hence the importance of DEI, as long as it is done well. We need more women in traditionally male-dominated roles.

I think the argument in favor of engineering language is that words have no meaning outside their connotation and use, they cannot convey information without it. So to undo sexist connotations of a word, is to change the implied meaning of the word itself. Instead of trying to get everyone to scrub those connotations from their minds, why not start with something that doesn't carry those connotations and go from there (i.e. reset the expectations explicitly)? For groups looking to enact change on the scale of a human lifetime, I can see the appeal.

Considering how many folks I run into that can't even describe a concept that they hold to be "self-evident", meaning the connotations aren't something they can consciously examine, I don't really blame folks for trying to short-circuit what they see as a task akin to pushing a boulder up Mount Everest. And language will evolve whether we want it to or not, so why not leverage that to our advantage?

And the thing is, I don't necessarily disagree. For example, I've grown fond of "they" as a singular genderless pronoun because it already had some use 40+ years ago for the purpose. It also is a little less awkward in practice than the more formal (although dropped out of use) "he or she", or the more myopic use of "he" for anyone you don't know the gender of. So if there's a sort of pre-existing path the language could go down, encouraging adoption can have multiple benefits. I'm also reminded of the exchange in Hot Fuzz about "traffic accidents" vs "traffic collisions". It's a small change, but it's a change made based on how people think about words to convey something more accurately. Language is flexible, and that's not a bad thing.

I'm less fond of something like "Womyn" because, honestly, it is meant to be pronounced the same way as "Woman". You aren't really dropping the connotations of the original word, just changing the spelling, so you get the worst of both worlds. It's fine as a political statement, but that's about all the use it will get. And because the term came out of a particular corner of second-wave feminism that was looking to create separate spaces for women, there was little chance for it to become mainstream. It's more jargon than anything else. It does get trotted out from time to time to create knee jerk reactions out of folks (thanks Rush Limbaugh /s), but it's largely irrelevant.

I used to be dismissive of the gender term issues when I was younger, then I went to a conference on that topic and it totally changed my stance. There is very clear neurocognitive evidence that professional terms such as "doctor" are associated with male practitioners. That's what women have to deal with.

This is partly why I am always disappointed by people looking to make things "less biased" with LLMs. And unsurprised with every new article about how someone's new resume filtering algorithm tends to bin resumes with names and writing styles that are not used by white men.
 
If we’re being pedantic, the reason that so many of those have the root man in them because they’re originally derived from the old German/English word “mann” meaning person of either sex. Middle English changed this.


So I guess if you really want to change the language we should go back to some variant of “wer(e)-man” for male humans (yes werewolf comes from the original word were for male, literally wolf man). Woman is derived from wifmann. At some point we dropped the “were” for males. It might’ve happened anyway but you can blame the Norman Conquest.
Agreed, but male is culturally equivalent to man and viewed mostly in terms of he-ness. If I was a girl, I’d not want to be referred to as a fe-man, it’s like second class status. 😗
 
Agreed, but male is culturally equivalent to man and viewed mostly in terms of he-ness. If I was a girl, I’d not want to be referred to as a fe-man, it’s like second class status. 😗
Again etymology is weird, female used to have a different spelling that indicated a separate word from male with no real implications of which word was primary. In a reverse of the Womyn attempt, the spelling of female was changed to match male. It used to be femelle from the French of that era and male was masle and they both had wildly different roots. A lot of issues in English are from the combination of Germanic and Romance languages mixing words and grammar uncomfortably though as mentioned in the Wikipedia article a lot of Romance and Germanic languages (not all of them!) went through a similar evolution regardless.

And while both the change the match female to male and refer to man as a male man were partially out of laziness/expediency, yes those changes also do reflect something of the patriarchal nature of our societies. No question. I'm just stating that neither word started out like that. Germanic and romance languages started out as more gender neutral in that respect. Although it should be stated that there are some ways our languages have become more gender neutral over time, especially in English which completely dropped gendered adjectives and largely dropped grammatical gender ... pronouns being a big exception :), but obviously those are big ones which arguably went waaaay the other way.

And to piggy back on @Nycturne and @leman's posts, that's why I suggest that instead of changing woman/female, we'd be better off trying to recover a more gender neutral version of man/men. That can happen, because a lot of language/culture is connotation which can become denotation over time, but we'd need a replacement for male man/men that was equally short and easy to say. Female is a little trickier since that was indeed a spelling change. So change it back to a more femelle like spelling? Again that's a little hard to "enforce", especially the original change was also partly to seemingly regularize the spelling to make it appear more consistent/easier even though it introduced the problem we're discussing of making it appear that male-ness is primary. Overall however I would agree with what @leman said, that the main focus should be on trying to equalize our society and our language will follow that, either through new words or a new understanding of current words. Although as he also points out, our language helps wire our brains for societal expectations and yes I would say that does act as a mental brake on how fast people are able to accept change. But as aforementioned I'm likewise skeptical of deliberately trying rewire language for neutrality to jumpstart that process. To take a trivial example, it's like trying to deliberately introduce a new slang term. "Stop trying to make fetch happen." (The irony being that a quote from Mean Girls about someone trying to make fetch happen is now such a ubiquitous meme that the saying itself has the potential for longevity - sort of like the similar joke "streets ahead" from Community) That's infinitely easier and yet still incredibly hard.
 
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For example, I've grown fond of "they" as a singular genderless pronoun because it already had some use 40+ years ago for the purpose. It also is a little less awkward in practice than the more formal (although dropped out of use) "he or she", or the more myopic use of "he" for anyone you don't know the gender of.

I think "they" works very well because it is an existing pronoun where the gender distinction is already neutralized. It is also a plural pronoun, which is closely associated with politeness. I also like to use it, and IMO it's a good way forward.

What I was referring to, however, is the practice of creating principally new words, hoping that they will establish a certain meaning/connotation. That's much more difficult.
 
I got corrected on Friday on the female vs. woman/women usage. I was fine being corrected and I understand the reasoning behind not using the term female over woman. The only issue I think I am going to have on correcting my vocabulary, is grammatically it just sound more natural to say "My female/male coworkers...", than something like "The woman/man I work with..."

Of course it is going to take some time. Hopefully I don't get myself in trouble while I adjust.
 
What I was referring to, however, is the practice of creating principally new words, hoping that they will establish a certain meaning/connotation. That's much more difficult.

Especially when that word you make up is offensive to those you made it up for. ie Latinx.
 
I had to look that up. Jesus. What was wrong with "Hispanic"?
Latinx was suppose to be gender neutral of Latino/Latina, not for Hispanic. Now there is a movement to drop Latinx for Latine. I just ask that we please agree to a new vocabulary word before we have to change it again in a decade or so.
 
Latinx was suppose to be gender neutral of Latino/Latina, not for Hispanic. Now there is a movement to drop Latinx for Latine. I just ask that we please agree to a new vocabulary word before we have to change it again in a decade or so.

Unfortunately, the problem here is that things like the internet expose how the sausage gets made to everyone. Subcultures used to hash this out in their own group, and then it would leak out into the mainstream as it got traction. Now it happens in full view of social media. It makes it much easier for things to spread outside that subculture earlier, and for people to point at it and go "WTF?". Not that the last bit didn't happen before, but the scale is a bit different when you've got people who have issues with a particular subculture and then re-tweet it out to tens of thousands of people.

Same with the trans community to be honest. The language there is still quite fluid, but the size of the community means that a lot of the attempts to figure things out happened entirely online. So I think it's fair to give some accommodation for groups of individuals to not have to present themselves as if they are a monolith that has everything worked out. Especially in an era where it's very hard for the group to do this without the mainstream picking it all apart before they even have some sort of consensus. It's just never that clean.

I think "they" works very well because it is an existing pronoun where the gender distinction is already neutralized. It is also a plural pronoun, which is closely associated with politeness. I also like to use it, and IMO it's a good way forward.

What I was referring to, however, is the practice of creating principally new words, hoping that they will establish a certain meaning/connotation. That's much more difficult.

Yet it does sometimes happen. I've kinda given up trying to enforce any particular "rightness" to how language will evolve. It feels a bit like screaming into a hurricane. Smaller evolution will generally get more traction though, for sure and I think we aren't really disagreeing on much of this. But groups will experiment, and humanity is going to do what it will with language, regardless of what we think will work or not.
 
I think "they" works very well because it is an existing pronoun where the gender distinction is already neutralized. It is also a plural pronoun, which is closely associated with politeness. I also like to use it, and IMO it's a good way forward.

As long as you think you can get the English teachers on board....... ;)
 
As long as you think you can get the English teachers on board....... ;)
What English teachers? After Trump eliminates the DoEd, we will be lucky to get doctors that can read and or write in 15 years.

Kinda kidding, but with the current state of US Education compared to the world, I don't think eliminating or privatizing education is a good idea.
 
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