Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Pumbaa]

I’ve already said this and Banner said it, go to the past, and the present you left becomes your past. Although it might look like your future, it’s your past, you can’t return to it. Btw, no anger here, it’s just a discussion.

You’ve tried to say it but have not understood it.

Yes, the present you left becomes your past, immutable, even if it looks like it is the future of where you are in the past. Anything changed just goes into a different timeline.

But the future of the present you left is still there, unwritten and possible to return to. You can even bring stuff with you to that unwritten future from the past, but nothing you did will have changed the past of what you return to, what happened before you left.

As for the tech part, view it as a return from a subroutine (back to continue writing the future of your old present), not a goto $timestamp (the future of your branches timeline).

 

[Huntn]

It’s a start. You’ll get the rest in time.


According to what they say and show, it is branching timelines.


It is not a single timeline. They pretty explicitly mention that you don’t change the future you came from (since that’s your past).


Why doesn’t it apply to the Endgame tech?

“It is not a single timeline. They pretty explicitly mention that you don’t change the future you came from (since that’s your past).”

They say this but then they treat it as a single time line, otherwise there would be no bringing back infinity stones to the future the Avengers left to retrieve them. And in the new time line they are in, events would have to happen all over again and in a different way.

There no mention of Banner’s time machine being able to access different time lines, and if there was, there was no visual or narrative effort on the writers part to show that any difference when entering a different/ parallel time line, unless in Marvel’s branching time lines, everything happens exactly the same way.

 

[JayMysteri0]

It does seem a little "big", I mean, I get that they're trying to out Thanos the next phase, but a FF movie would've totally made better sense. Maybe they'll do a big setup, like this is how the universe actually works, there are entities much more powerful than anything you've encountered ... here's a peek, but we won't get back to this until the next Spiderman, Thor, GotG and hopefully a GOOD GODDAM FF MOVIE

I kind of get the difficulty with the FF, especially in the context of the universe being Iron Man and Captain America, and villains like Hydra, but I think the time it right, we've seen there's shit way beyond what we thought, and even that in context of the "Eternals universe" seems small.

I need me some Doctor Doom, we've got Kang semi-established, Galactus? Annihilus?

Side note: is there any way to do stretching powers that won't look silly ...

Is some of the Project Pegasus storyline part of the new Sam Jackson / Skrulls / Secret Invasion series? I do like keeping some things dialed back, into more "terrestrial" type adventures (it's one reason I probably enjoyed Black Widow more than some other folks).

With the FF movie, it's Irv Perlmutter and his tiny pecker that was the problem. Fox owned FF at the time & wanted to keep trying to F up doing a FF movie. Out of spite Perlmutter declared the FF & of sorts the X Men persona non grata. So there was no chance of there being a FF movie, until the acquisition. Which means Marvel's choice for group / team movies were slim. They tried to force feed the Inhumans, and hopefully you didn't see how bad that went.

FF should be the anchor of the new phase of MCU, especially with the quantum realm heavily involved. It just screams there needs to be stories about the Negative verse done as well.

Project Pegasus was an old Marvel story where the Thing got a job as security for this super high tech facility that dealt with all kinds of Marvel energy and dimensional stuff. The version intro'd in Capt Marvel is a very tame version of it. I imagine more like if Marvel wanted to do the Eureka Syfy series. They dealt with crazy stuff. They had Quasar who had cosmic bands as their security guy, it was out there & fun for the time.

Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S. (Earth-616)

54 appearance(s) of Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S. (Earth-616) 7 appearance(s) in handbook(s) of Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S. (Earth-616) 2 minor appearance(s) of Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S. (Earth-616) 29 mention(s) of Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S. (Earth-616) 13 mention(s) in handbook(s) of Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S...

marvel.fandom.com

Project Pegasus (Potential Energy Group/Alternate Sources/United States) is a scientific base. Project: Pegasus was originally intended to research alternative (and unusual) forms of energy, but has also been used as a prison for super-powered individuals. The facility is located in the Adirondack Mountains in New York.[citation needed]

Several heroes have served terms working security at the facility, including the Thing and Quasar. At one time it also served as a temporary home for the Squadron Supreme when they were exiled from their own universe.[citation needed]

I just brought a digital copy of the Thing / Marvel Two in One collection of it from Comixology on sale Friday. So it's running thru my brain.

 

[Huntn]

You’ve tried to say it but have not understood it.

Yes, the present you left becomes your past, immutable, even if it looks like it is the future of where you are in the past. Anything changed just goes into a different timeline.

But the future of the present you left is still there, unwritten and possible to return to. You can even bring stuff with you to that unwritten future from the past, but nothing you did will have changed the past of what you return to, what happened before you left.

As for the tech part, view it as a return from a subroutine (back to continue writing the future of your old present), not a goto $timestamp (the future of your branches timeline).

Favorite Time Travel Paradoxes

It's not an anomaly, a conundrum, or a fallacy, it's a PARADOX! For time travel stories, my impression is that despite the different names, they all involve inconsistent causal loops, unless the multiverse is introduced. The difficult part of time travel paradoxes is to think out of all of the...

talkedabout.com

This is all science fiction. However, based on all the popular theories expressed about time travel paradoxes, and what effect time travel would have, the only possible way to return to a future in your time line, would be via a single time line. Once split timelines are introduced, time travel to the past splits yourself off from your original time line.

In Loki for narrative convenience, Marvel introduces the The Time Authority where though magic jumping around between time lines is no big deal. In Loki I can accept this for the sake of the story, but I am unaware of any time travel paradoxes that describe being able to jump around into different timelines.

I don’t remember Banner specifically saying his time machine allowed the time travelers to cross from one time line to another. Did he?

 

[DT]

Project Pegasus was an old Marvel story where the Thing got a job as security for this super high tech facility that dealt with all kinds of Marvel energy and dimensional stuff. The version intro'd in Capt Marvel is a very tame version of it. I imagine more like if Marvel wanted to do the Eureka Syfy series. They dealt with crazy stuff. They had Quasar who had cosmic bands as their security guy, it was out there & fun for the time.


I just brought a digital copy of the Thing / Marvel Two in One collection of it from Comixology on sale Friday. So it's running thru my brain.

OMG, hahaha, that sounds pretty fun. In addition to having (like reading/owning/up-in-the-attic) a good bit of the Byrne FF run (my favorite bit was making Sue Storm a badass ...) I have a ton of Marvel 2-in-1, I got most of those from a garage sale, just always loved The Thing + <whoever>

 

[Pumbaa]

“It is not a single timeline. They pretty explicitly mention that you don’t change the future you came from (since that’s your past).”

They say this but then they treat it as a single time line, otherwise there would be no bringing back infinity stones to the future the Avengers left to retrieve them. And in the new time line they are in, events would have to happen all over again and in a different way.

Except they most certainly don’t treat it as a single timeline. If they had, they would have just gone back and stopped Thanos. Instead we got Endgame with multiple timelines that makes bringing stuff to the future consistent with how they say it works. Things happen in a different way in the branched timelines and nothing in the time traveler‘s past is changed.

There no mention of Banner’s time machine being able to access different time lines, and if there was, there was no visual or narrative effort on the writers part to show that any difference when entering a different/ parallel time line, unless in Marvel’s branching time lines, everything happens exactly the same way.

Why would there need to be a mention of that? It kind of follows from the way they say time travel works. The other timelines we get to see in Endgame are in the past of the main timeline we followed, they don’t branch off until the Avengers go back to them, of course everything happens exactly the same way until that point since that’s what they went back to.

Let’s say the Banner-Stark Time Machine works like this:

• You can go to any location and any point in time in any timeline.

It may not be explicitly mentioned, but it is as far as I know also not contradicted by anything explicitly mentioned so far. Awesome, suddenly almost everything in Endgame works flawlessly!

Plausible constraints could be that one needs to be able to navigate this infinite set of spacetime coordinates. Maybe the primitive navigation system of the Banner-Stark Time Machine only allows travel to:

• Any point (timeline + location + time) previously navigated to/from.
• Any point (location + time) in the past of the same timeline. (Immediately branches off to a new timeline upon arrival)

That would be a reason not to mention the machine’s ability to cross between timelines as they lack the more sophisticated navigation tech the TVA got, while allowing the Avengers to visit the past, return to the main timeline they started out from and to return the borrowed infinity stones to the correct timelines.

Favorite Time Travel Paradoxes

It's not an anomaly, a conundrum, or a fallacy, it's a PARADOX! For time travel stories, my impression is that despite the different names, they all involve inconsistent causal loops, unless the multiverse is introduced. The difficult part of time travel paradoxes is to think out of all of the...

talkedabout.com

This is all science fiction. However, based on all the popular theories expressed about time travel paradoxes, and what effect time travel would have, the only possible way to return to a future in your time line, would be via a single time line. Once split timelines are introduced, time travel to the past splits yourself off from your original time line. In Loki for narrative convenience, Marvel introduces the The Time Authority where though magic jumping around between time lines is no big deal. In Loki I can accept this for the sake of the story, but I am unaware of any time travel paradoxes that describe being able to jump around into different timelines.

So instead of basing the MCU time travel on what they say and do in the MCU, you are trying to force the MCU time travel to fit other theories?

No, it is not magic jumping in Loki, just technology. If you accept that the TVA can do it, you have to accept that others in the MCU could potentially do it as well.

 

[Huntn]

Except they most certainly don’t treat it as a single timeline. If they had, they would have just gone back and stopped Thanos. Instead we got Endgame with multiple timelines that makes bringing stuff to the future consistent with how they say it works. Things happen in a different way in the branched timelines and nothing in the time traveler‘s past is changed.


Why would there need to be a mention of that? It kind of follows from the way they say time travel works. The other timelines we get to see in Endgame are in the past of the main timeline we followed, they don’t branch off until the Avengers go back to them, of course everything happens exactly the same way until that point since that’s what they went back to.

Let’s say the Banner-Stark Time Machine works like this:

• You can go to any location and any point in time in any timeline.

It may not be explicitly mentioned, but it is as far as I know also not contradicted by anything explicitly mentioned so far. Awesome, suddenly almost everything in Endgame works flawlessly!

Plausible constraints could be that one needs to be able to navigate this infinite set of spacetime coordinates. Maybe the primitive navigation system of the Banner-Stark Time Machine only allows travel to:

• Any point (timeline + location + time) previously navigated to/from.
• Any point (location + time) in the past of the same timeline. (Immediately branches off to a new timeline upon arrival)

That would be a reason not to mention the machine’s ability to cross between timelines as they lack the more sophisticated navigation tech the TVA got, while allowing the Avengers to visit the past, return to the main timeline they started out from and to return the borrowed infinity stones to the correct timelines.


So instead of basing the MCU time travel on what they say and do in the MCU, you are trying to force the MCU time travel to fit other theories?

No, it is not magic jumping in Loki, just technology. If you accept that the TVA can do it, you have to accept that others in the MCU could potentially do it as well.

Sorry, Loki specifically addresses it, the Time Variance Authority sits out in an unknown space, zero description of how it works, where these people exist, in essence magic. Travel to any ole time line, I’m good with that.

End Game is supposedly within the realm of what humans can discover. Banner never says we’ll be creating multiple branching time lines and this time machine will pull you back to this time line. So I see two choices they are dealing with a single time line, or branching time lines. And without being able to cross time lines, traveling back in time won’t solve the issue they face in End Game. Now if somewhere in MCU cannon it is states that Banner’s Time Machine can send travelers to other time lines, I’d be good with that.

One other issue, if going back and stealing an Infinity Zone splits off the time line, why did Captain America have to bother with going back and put them back just when they were taken? Who cares what happens in those other time lines, they would have zero effect on your time line. Or is the idea that putting them back at the right moment would erase those branching time lines that have already been created? I thought what was done in the past can’t be undone without branching off into another split timeline.

I accept your disagreement and have stated my case as best I can. .

 

[Pumbaa]

Sorry, Loki specifically addresses it, the Time Variance Authority sits out in an unknown space, zero description of how it works, where these people exist, in essence magic. Travel to any ole time line, I’m good with that.

End Game is supposedly within the realm of what humans can discover. Banner never says we’ll be creating multiple branching time lines and this time machine will pull you back to this time line. So I see two choices they are dealing with a single time line, or branching time lines. And without being able to cross time lines, traveling back in time won’t solve the issue they face in End Game. Now if somewhere in MCU cannon it is states that Banner’s Time Machine can send travelers to other time lines, I’d be good with that.

Addresses what? Keep in mind who created the TVA and why it was created.

Banner never says that because it doesn’t make any sense to say that there. The burning question that needed to be answered in that Endgame scene was why they couldn’t just go back in time and stop Thanos in the past to change the present.

Let’s face it, there are two options:

1. The Banner-Stark Time Machine can cross between timelines. Then practically everything works in Endgame, and it is consistent with what they say there and how it works in Loki.
2. The Banner-Stark Time Machine cannot cross between timelines. Then practically nothing works in Endgame, and it is not consistent with what they say there or how it works in Loki.

I prefer the option that makes things work smoothly and is not explicitly contradicted by MCU.
You prefer the option that makes things not work and is not explicitly supported by MCU.

You want MCU canon? How about this? In Endgame, when Banner negotiates with The Ancient One:

— So tell me, doctor, can your science prevent all that?
— No … but we can erase it. Because once we’re done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken.

Let’s see where the future movies take us.

Edit to include your edit:

One other issue, if going back and stealing an Infinity Zone splits off the time line, why did Captain America have to bother with going back and put them back just when they were taken? Who cares what happens in those other time lines, they would have zero effect on your time line. Or is the idea that putting them back at the right moment would erase those branching time lines that have already been created? I thought what was done in the past can’t be undone without branching off into another split timeline.

The Avengers are supposedly heroes. As such, they could care about the other realities and try to avoid messing them up after The Ancient One educated them about the consequences of completely removing an infinity stone. Or they could care enough to honor the deal struck by Banner in order to get the time stone. Decent people, you know.

You seem to be confused about what the past is. The past that can‘t be changed is your past, you can‘t go back and change that. But if you go back in time and create a new branch, the future of that branch isn’t your past, even if it from a date/time point of view happens before your present, or whatever it’s called. So going back and returning an infinity stone the moment it disappeared is just continuing the unwritten future of that branch. Trying to return it to before it disappeared on the other hand would cause branching since it changes something that already happened.

 

[Huntn]

Addresses what? Keep in mind who created the TVA and why it was created.

Banner never says that because it doesn’t make any sense to say that there. The burning question that needed to be answered in that Endgame scene was why they couldn’t just go back in time and stop Thanos in the past to change the present.

Let’s face it, there are two options:

1. The Banner-Stark Time Machine can cross between timelines. Then practically everything works in Endgame, and it is consistent with what they say there and how it works in Loki.
2. The Banner-Stark Time Machine cannot cross between timelines. Then practically nothing works in Endgame, and it is not consistent with what they say there or how it works in Loki.

I prefer the option that makes things work smoothly and is not explicitly contradicted by MCU.
You prefer the option that makes things not work and is not explicitly supported by MCU.

You want MCU canon? How about this? In Endgame, when Banner negotiates with The Ancient One:

— So tell me, doctor, can your science prevent all that?
— No … but we can erase it. Because once we’re done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken.

Let’s see where the future movies take us.

• The Banner-Stark Time Machine cannot cross between timelines. Then practically nothing works in Endgame, and it is not consistent with what they say there or how it works in Loki.

By the act of stealing an Infinity Stone, Loki creates a new time line for whatever vague reason as in "it was not meant to be". . In the Branching timeline theory of time travel, every time you changed something in the past including just showing up, you have branched off a new timeline. You just don't get to skip back to your original time line, it's now your past, unless you have clever writers who decided that the Time Variance Authority can jump around as they please. Sure it's simple and easy to understand, and consequently I don't put a lot of thought into it, but I enjoyed it and accepted this premise, just don't think about it.

Banner: — No … but we can erase it. Because once we’re done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken.

Except he can't erase it. For branching time lines it's as if he is saying that putting back Infinity Stones would put everything back as it was, except it would not, not when they have decided there are branching time lines, triggered by going back in time. A new branch into a new time line is created every time a traveler travels to their past. That is my issue with branching timelines and Endgame, but I'll give Banner credit for saying "time lines".

So Captain America went back and put Infinity Stones back at the right moment to fix something or just make the Ancient one happy? Putting an Infinity Stone back would split the time line once again. And if you want to entertain the idea of time travel backwards, there is a decent argument that people could not be dragging objects back and forth across time lines, but it's not worth arguing about. The basis of this is that the past is past, and that changing the past would break you off into a new timeline, and there is no way you could return to your old time line because that is now your past, unless time travel to the past is reduced to "whatever".

Look, I'll just have to disagree with you. I do admit that every time travel story I watch includes a paradox. But some stories I can over look the paradox and others I can't. End game is one of the movies I can't overlook, mostly because they took the time to explain it to the audience and then ignored what they said.

 

[Pumbaa]

Now if somewhere in MCU cannon it is states that Banner’s Time Machine can send travelers to other time lines, I’d be good with that.

Banner said it. It’s MCU canon. Case closed.

You just don't get to skip back to your original time line, it's now your past, unless you have clever writers who decided that the Time Variance Authority can jump around as they please.

The part of your original timeline after you left, ie its future, is not your past.

Except he can't erase it. For branching time lines it's as if he is saying that putting back Infinity Stones would put everything back as it was, except it would not, not when they have decided there are branching time lines, triggered by going back in time. A new branch into a new time line is created every time a traveler travels to their past. That is my issue with branching timelines and Endgame, but I'll give Banner credit for saying "time lines".

Putting the infinity stones back the moment they disappeared was to erase the future where they are without said infinity stones, not to reverse the whole adventure. A new branch is created when every time a traveler travels to their past, not every time a traveler travels to the past. Same as with the original timeline, the part of the branch after you left it is not your past. Thus, returning the stones is possible without further branching.

Look, I'll just have to disagree with you. I do admit that every time travel I watch includes a paradox. But some stories I can over look the paradox and others I can't. End game is one of the movies I can't overlook, mostly because they took the time to explain it and then ignored what they said.

Except that they did not ignore what they said, you are… You are actively inventing your own paradox to dislike.

Ah, well, as I said earlier, let’s see where the future movies take us. Not getting any further here.

 

[Huntn]

Banner said it. It’s MCU canon. Case closed.


The part of your original timeline after you left, ie its future, is not your past.


Putting the infinity stones back the moment they disappeared was to erase the future where they are without said infinity stones, not to reverse the whole adventure. A new branch is created when every time a traveler travels to their past, not every time a traveler travels to the past. Same as with the original timeline, the part of the branch after you left it is not your past. Thus, returning the stones is possible without further branching.


Except that they did not ignore what they said, you are… You are actively inventing your own paradox to dislike.

Ah, well, as I said earlier, let’s see where the future movies take us. Not getting any further here.

By your quote Banner mentioned timelines, but did not address complications of branching timelines.
No I’m not Inventing anything. Marvel is ignoring the complications of branching timelines.
Yep…

 

[Pumbaa]

By your quote Banner mentioned timelines, but did not address complications of branching timelines.
No I’m not Inventing anything. Marvel is ignoring the complications of branching timelines.
Yep…

You said you’d be good with it if it was stated somewhere in MCU canon that “Banner’s Time Machine” could send travelers to other timelines.

In Endgame, Banner said that the Avengers could “return each [stone] to its own timeline at the moment it was taken”. That should cover the machine’s MCU canon ability to send travelers to other timelines and is in line with a branching model.

You obviously want your paradox and have made up your mind. No point in continuing this. You are (un)happy with your theory that pretty much doesn’t explain anything. Good for you!

I’m happy with my theory that explains virtually all observations from MCU canon. If new observations need explaining, or if I encounter another theory that explains more or relies on fewer assumptions while still explaining much, I’m open to adapting or replacing my theory. Would be happy to!

This phase is going to get rough. Really looking forward to all the new movies and shows. We might even get a passable FF!

 

[JayMysteri0]

I've been waiting for this...



It seems to be partly based on this series. Which if you have NOT read before, do yourself a favor and read.

I'm not sure how many versions of this I own ( it's been reprinted a lot ) but it's worth it. Some incredibly clever story telling & art, and to me it's the definitive Hawkeye.

 

[DT]

I've been waiting for this...

It seems to be partly based on this series. Which if you have NOT read before, do yourself a favor and read.

I'm not sure how many versions of this I own ( it's been reprinted a lot ) but it's worth it. Some incredibly clever story telling & art, and to me it's the definitive Hawkeye.

People are constantly recommending that creative teams run, this might mean I finally have to track it down (assuming it's compiled into some GNs and/or digital).

 

[DT]

Oh wow, hahaha, that trailer is great! That's tonally / action level / scope-scale perfect.

 

[JayMysteri0]

People are constantly recommending that creative teams run, this might mean I finally have to track it down (assuming it's compiled into some GNs and/or digital).

The collected compendium digitally is $25. With the Hawkeye series on the way, you know the physical copy will jump unrealistically.

Amazon.com: Hawkeye by Matt Fraction and David Aja (Hawkeye (2012-2015)) eBook : Fraction, Matt, Aja, David, Pulido, Javier, Hamm, Jesse, Lieber, Steve, Francavilla, Francesco, Wu, Annie, Davis, Alan, Aja, David, Aja, David, Pulido, Javier, Hamm, Jes

Amazon.com: Hawkeye by Matt Fraction and David Aja (Hawkeye (2012-2015)) eBook : Fraction, Matt, Aja, David, Pulido, Javier, Hamm, Jesse, Lieber, Steve, Francavilla, Francesco, Wu, Annie, Davis, Alan, Aja, David, Aja, David, Pulido, Javier, Hamm, Jesse, Lieber, Steve, Francavilla, Francesco, Wu...

www.amazon.com

When I got the series I got it when it was broken into 6 issue collected graphic novels. The whole series going 22 issues I believe.

I got my physical copies by hitting cons on Sunday afternoons and scouring dealers $5 graphic novel bins. I'm guessing that will no longer be an option. If you don't want to spend any money before trying it out, I do recommend hitting the library or the app some libraries use Hoopla.

https://www.hoopladigital.com

 

[DT]

OMG, hahaha, the Hawkeye results ...

Sweet, I just put Vol 1-4 into my faves in Hoopla (I'll wait to checkout when I know I'll have time to read).

 

[Huntn]

You said you’d be good with it if it was stated somewhere in MCU canon that “Banner’s Time Machine” could send travelers to other timelines.

In Endgame, Banner said that the Avengers could “return each [stone] to its own timeline at the moment it was taken”. That should cover the machine’s MCU canon ability to send travelers to other timelines and is in line with a branching model.

You obviously want your paradox and have made up your mind. No point in continuing this. You are (un)happy with your theory that pretty much doesn’t explain anything. Good for you!

I’m happy with my theory that explains virtually all observations from MCU canon. If new observations need explaining, or if I encounter another theory that explains more or relies on fewer assumptions while still explaining much, I’m open to adapting or replacing my theory. Would be happy to!

This phase is going to get rough. Really looking forward to all the new movies and shows. We might even get a passable FF!

I’m still watching Marvel movies.

But I can be picky about my time paradoxes, and I told you I can accept some and critique others.

Yes, Banner mentions putting stones back in their own time lines but the story glosses over what branching time lines actually means, because in the realm of time travel paradoxes, yes it’s all hypothetical, yet when the writer selects a branching time line related to time travel to tell the story, it means that traveling to a previous time creates a new time line to preserve the old time line, there is a barrier there. And imo instead of trying to make the explanation sound scientific, just call it magic. That’s why I don’t question Dr Strange when he creates a time portal, that’s mystical.

 

[Alli]

My head hurts. Why do we have to analyze something that isn’t possible (yet)?

 

[Pumbaa]

My head hurts. Why do we have to analyze something that isn’t possible (yet)?