Mac New Game Porting Toolkit is Wine

Cmaier said:
Yep. And they are going to update the armv :)
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We don't need no faster CPUs, or GPUs, or them highfalutin ray tracin' cores. All we need is Armv9, that'll fix everything!

The latest rumor making the rounds over at MR is that Apple isn't going to use N3B for very long, and the bulk of A17 and M3 products will be on N3E. I'm no fancy engineer, but this doesn't exactly make a lot of sense, particularly with how big the caches are that Apple uses, never mind having to redesign everything for N3E. I think the rumor has more to do with Apple being the only major customer on N3B, more than anything else, but being in a technology announcement drought, it's back to silly season.
 
Another post from my favourite Mac game dev.

"I don't think the license is related to Wine or Crossover. The LGPL doesn't, in itself, prevent commercial use and several games have shipped as Wine apps, for better or worse.

The DXIL to Metal AIR compiler will help for games that use Shader Model 6, without a doubt. The D3D12 games we have shipped so far have only used Shader Model 5 (luckily for us) so that portion will be a big help.

In terms of reducing time, I'd guess 10% or so? You still would need to write a D3D to Metal thing or write an all-new Metal renderer -- you can't use Apple's as it's under the restrictive license. So you're looking at recompiling your app in Xcode, acquiring the middleware libraries you need for macOS and then porting your renderer over to Metal.

AFAICT, the Game Porting Toolkit seems to exist to say "See, Metal is good enough and the features can be made to work -- now go do it yourself and make some $$!"

In practical terms, I think what it really means is that game companies will see that it's still a lot of effort, and that "enterprising users" can and will run the games in non-official wrappers, so these game companies (still) won't bother without a compelling reason.

I mean, Blizzard can't be assed to do a macOS build of Diablo IV and they were the poster-boy for Mac-native games. People are now running Diablo IV in Apple's wrapper.

Of course, all of this is my own personal opinion and a bit of a hot take, I guess. Take it for what it's worth."

No wonder we have so many games on the Mac!

This from one of the leaders of the Game Porting Kit project

Time will tell.
 
Formerly_Jimmyjames said:
No wonder we have so many games on the Mac!
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Thankfully, the games for Apple Silicon Macs won't be made based upon whatever some fusspot chucklehead says on the internet. All of that will happen behind the scenes, between Apple and game studios that are open to working with them. In the month prior to WWDC, we got as many "AAA" game announcements as we did in the previous three years. Resident Evil Village was the start, the festive WWDC season continued the trend, and if Apple holds the line, then the next WWDC will be even better.

There's this false dichotomy that, paraphrasing Steve Jobs, in order for Mac to win, PC has to lose. Mac users don't need access to every single PC title, we just need access to enough games to keep us entertained. I don't know about other Mac users, but I probably burn through one game per month, at most. I'm currently playing Dying Light for the first time, after four weeks I'm at 18% completion of the main campaign. Do PC gamers spend every waking hour playing computer games? Where do they find the time? I'm lucky to finish between 8-10 games per year. Maybe I'm just not hardcore enough.

There will always be naysayers, they've been in existence since the dawn of Apple, back when the average computer user referred to a PC as an "IBM", even if it was a clone. It comes with the territory, and no number of Mac games will please the critics.
 
Colstan said:
Thankfully, the games for Apple Silicon Macs won't be made based upon whatever some fusspot chucklehead says on the internet.
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Oh you’re absolutely correct. It’s just depressing that this is the opinion of one of the main devs for Feral Interactive.
 
Formerly_Jimmyjames said:
Oh you’re absolutely correct. It’s just depressing that this is the opinion of one of the main devs for Feral Interactive.
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On the one hand, it could be a sneaky way to discourage other devs from entering the market, thus reducing the number of titles with which Feral will have to compete. If studios port their own games, then Feral becomes obsolete. However, more likely, he's been at this for so long that he can't comprehend a world where Mac gaming is thriving. I think we owe Feral many thanks for their contributions to the Mac, but hopefully Mac users will no longer be dependent upon them for "AAA" games moving forward. I do hope they continue to contribute, but become one of many gaming houses that develop for Mac.
 
Colstan said:
On the one hand, it could be a sneaky way to discourage other devs from entering the market, thus reducing the number of titles with which Feral will have to compete. If studios port their own games, then Feral becomes obsolete. However, more likely, he's been at this for so long that he can't comprehend a world where Mac gaming is thriving. I think we owe Feral many thanks for their contributions to the Mac, but hopefully Mac users will no longer be dependent upon them for "AAA" games moving forward. I do hope they continue to contribute, but become one of many gaming houses that develop for Mac.
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Interesting thoughts. It Seems to be a trend from long time Mac users. He’s expressed similar ideas to Siracusa etc.
 
Formerly_Jimmyjames said:
Interesting thoughts. It Seems to be a trend from long time Mac users. He’s expressed similar ideas to Siracusa etc.
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I think there's a measure of fatalism among many old-timey Mac users, both in the Apple media, and general user base, that because this is the way it was, so shall it always be. I think it's the same reason that Apple Silicon surprised a lot of folks. Up until the day the transition was announced, there were a multitude of users who insisted on their grandmother's grave that Apple would never leave Intel. It happened back during the PowerPC transition, as well. Many of these same people claimed that Boot Camp would never go away, but it did. The latest casualty are the third-party GPU crowd, who are currently in deep mourning over their long lost Mac Pro of yore.

Not all of those people overlap, but what they do have in common is a lack of predictive analysis. All of these are developments that Apple telegraphed ahead of time, but when somebody personally desires something, it's nearly impossible to dislodge that expectation. Some still disbelieve, even though Apple executives have outright denied the return of Boot Camp or discreet GPUs. There had been signs that Apple is working with game developers, now they even have a porting kit and are openly talking about it, but that's not enough for some folks.

Engrained notions are hard to change, people tend to dig in when their traditional beliefs are shaken, even when it would benefit them personally. Odd thing, human psychology.
 
Colstan said:
There had been signs that Apple is working with game developers, now they even have a porting kit and are openly talking about it, but that's not enough for some folks.
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I guess that's not enough for people maybe they want to know that Apple is really invested like they make their own TV shows or fitness. An Apple original AAA game or games shows that they have real interest and so far nothing like that has been shown.
 
Slightly wrong headed (in that it pushes wrong part of the GPK, the wine/dx12 part and not the shader converter), but positive article about Mac gaming

www.inverse.com

Apple's Secret Weapon to Getting PC Games on Mac

The truism that Macs can't play real PC games could be on the verge of changing thanks to the new Game Porting Toolkit in macOS Sonoma that lets developers easily port over DirectX 12-compatible PC games. Hobbyists have already gotten Grand Theft Auto V, Diablo IV, Cyberpunk 2077, and more...
www.inverse.com www.inverse.com
 
In case anyone is interested in the latest edition of “why Apple is bad and gaming will never come”. From everyone’s favorite Mac game dev.

”Yeah, the Game Porting Toolkit does exactly nothing to address the less cutting-edge games you mention.

As mentioned before, you can't ship anything that uses the D3D API -> Metal API bits or more generally the Wine wrapper portion that Apple provides. But lets say there comes a time when you can -- what happens when Rosetta 2 goes away? That can't be too far off. All these Wine-wrapped Intel binaries die. Hey, another Mac gaming apocalypse! Well, we're used to that now.

Putting that aside, the DXIL -> Metal IR shader library is a tool to port HLSL shaders authored in Shader Model 6 for D3D12 to macOS. Aside from maybe Modern Warfare 2 or Destiny 2, none of top 10 games you mention use D3D12 or Shader Model 6. Many of those use D3D11 with Shader Model 5. So now you're in a situation where your engine needs to use D3D12 to gain this help, and you are authoring your Metal shaders in HLSL on the PC while still having to write a Metal renderer for macOS.

I'd also like to see Slime Rancher 2 on macOS for my daughter - it is no exaggeration to say she's been asking when it will come out for about a year now. It's authored in Unity so the things Apple's GPT provides aren't nearly as impactful compared to Unity already having baked-in macOS support.

If Apple wanted to really help, they'd proactively provide resources for teams like the Slime Rancher devs to assist. Instead, they're dicking around with D3D emulation environments that you can't ship.

I think it's fair to say that many Apple developers "get" gaming, but Apple as a corporation still doesn't. It feels like the Game Porting Toolkit is born out of that schism as a means to "do something" without much thought for how impactful it actually is or what its goals actually are.”

It’s funny how the more Apple does for gaming, the less (and worse) it’s actually doing.
 
The gaming industry and the communities that surround it are toxic. You thought iOS vs Android was bad? Gamimg toxic levels are off the charts.

I miss the days of Gameboy and DS, where people enjoyed games... :(
 
exoticspice1 said:
The gaming industry and the communities that surround it are toxic. You thought iOS vs Android was bad? Gamimg toxic levels are off the charts.

I miss the days of Gameboy and DS, where people enjoyed games... :(
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It was toxic then too. Obviously the expansion of the internet just expanded everything with it, but people wrapped their identities and tribalism into their consumer purchases since the beginning - no different than sports or politics for many.
 
Jimmyjames said:
In case anyone is interested in the latest edition of “why Apple is bad and gaming will never come”. From everyone’s favorite Mac game dev.

”Yeah, the Game Porting Toolkit does exactly nothing to address the less cutting-edge games you mention.

As mentioned before, you can't ship anything that uses the D3D API -> Metal API bits or more generally the Wine wrapper portion that Apple provides. But lets say there comes a time when you can -- what happens when Rosetta 2 goes away? That can't be too far off. All these Wine-wrapped Intel binaries die. Hey, another Mac gaming apocalypse! Well, we're used to that now.

Putting that aside, the DXIL -> Metal IR shader library is a tool to port HLSL shaders authored in Shader Model 6 for D3D12 to macOS. Aside from maybe Modern Warfare 2 or Destiny 2, none of top 10 games you mention use D3D12 or Shader Model 6. Many of those use D3D11 with Shader Model 5. So now you're in a situation where your engine needs to use D3D12 to gain this help, and you are authoring your Metal shaders in HLSL on the PC while still having to write a Metal renderer for macOS.

I'd also like to see Slime Rancher 2 on macOS for my daughter - it is no exaggeration to say she's been asking when it will come out for about a year now. It's authored in Unity so the things Apple's GPT provides aren't nearly as impactful compared to Unity already having baked-in macOS support.

If Apple wanted to really help, they'd proactively provide resources for teams like the Slime Rancher devs to assist. Instead, they're dicking around with D3D emulation environments that you can't ship.

I think it's fair to say that many Apple developers "get" gaming, but Apple as a corporation still doesn't. It feels like the Game Porting Toolkit is born out of that schism as a means to "do something" without much thought for how impactful it actually is or what its goals actually are.”

It’s funny how the more Apple does for gaming, the less (and worse) it’s actually doing.
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That’s weird I thought you could ship the shader converter? Unless I’m misunderstanding what he is referring to? Moving past his unfounded comment that Rosetta 2’s demise is imminent, he was rather unspecific as to what resources would be useful if GPT isn’t. What exactly is it that Apple should be doing if GPT is a waste of time? I’m not a game developer so I have no particular basis to challenge him on that, but I especially can’t judge it if the alternative is so nebulous.
 
dada_dave said:
That’s weird I thought you could ship the shader converter? Unless I’m misunderstanding what he is referring to? Moving past his unfounded comment that Rosetta 2’s demise is imminent, he was rather unspecific as to what resources would be useful if GPT isn’t. What exactly is it that Apple should be doing if GPT is a waste of time? I’m not a game developer so I have no particular basis to challenge him on that, but I especially can’t judge it if the alternative is so nebulous.
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I’m pretty sure you are correct and the shader converter can be shipped, unless he means something else? Also Rosetta 2 is apple’s own work. Rosetta 1 was based on a company’s product called “quick transit’. They were bought by IBM so Apple had no choice but to stop shipping I believe.

I agree that he’s unspecific. Someone said he means actual hardware. He wants apple to give indie devs Mac hardware. Thing is, Apple wants big games, and they already have hardware. It’s always something with critics. I just finished hearing how Apple's efforts were no good because all these games are old, and now the efforts are no good because they aren’t providing help to port…old games.
 
Jimmyjames said:
I’m pretty sure you are correct and the shader converter can be shipped, unless he means something else? Also Rosetta 2 is apple’s own work. Rosetta 1 was based on a company’s product called “quick transit’. They were bought by IBM so Apple had no choice but to stop shipping I believe.

I agree that he’s unspecific. Someone said he means actual hardware. He wants apple to give indie devs Mac hardware. Thing is, Apple wants big games, and they already have hardware. It’s always something with critics. I just finished hearing how Apple's efforts were no good because all these games are old, and now the efforts are no good because they aren’t providing help to port…old games.
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Yeah as I wrote here:

dada_dave said:
A related question is how long Rosetta 2 will be around for … given that PC-land will remain firmly entrenched in x86 for the foreseeable future and that Apple has released the Game Porting Toolkit of which Rosetta will play a substantial part and, as has been mentioned previously, Apple doesn’t have to pay licensing for Rosetta 2 (unlike for 1) I think it’ll be around for the long haul - maybe eventually only/mainly as a developer tool, but still around nonetheless.
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Rosetta 2 should be around for awhile. Plus there are even alternatives that people are working on with even more flexibility that I’m sure could be recoded to take its place. Like FEX which Asahi Linux will be using:

dada_dave said:
This is interesting from Asahi Lina regarding why Fex rather than Rosetta or box. Turns out FEX is much faster than Rosetta for 32-bit emulation.

View attachment 22486

And the licensing issue.
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So really … dooming on the imminent and/or inevitable demise of Rosetta 2 is not only premature but likely immaterial to any future macOS “gaming apocalypse” that will not occur :).

I’ll reserve judgement on what he means by resources until we hear from him - especially since just supplying hardware doesn’t seem like what he’s talking about. Again I’m not a game developer, but my impression is that buying computers is not the biggest expense or hurdle even for indie devs in porting. But maybe I’m wrong.
 
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dada_dave said:
I’ll reserve judgement on what he means by resources until we hear from him - especially since just supplying hardware doesn’t seem like what he’s talking about. Again I’m not a game developer, but my impression is that buying computers is not the biggest expense or hurdle even for indie devs in porting. But maybe I’m wrong.
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I doubt you’ll ever see an answer. He’s quite slippery. Other posters have taken the ball and run with his narrative. We’re now at the point where a Chromebook is better than macOS because steam is being ported to it, with Proton I assume.

Can’t remember where I saw it, but I’m sure recently someone posted that proton only worked for 40% of the top 10 games on stream or something similar.
 
Jimmyjames said:
I doubt you’ll ever see an answer. He’s quite slippery. Other posters have taken the ball and run with his narrative. We’re now at the point where a Chromebook is better than macOS because steam is being ported to it, with Proton I assume.

Can’t remember where I saw it, but I’m sure recently someone posted that proton only worked for 40% of the top 10 games on stream or something similar.
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Where is this? Feral forums?
 
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