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Yep. And they are going to update the armvI don’t think that’s very likely given the timing and the fact that they’d have to port the A16 cores to N3 as opposed to just using for the N3 designed A17 cores.
Yep. And they are going to update the armvI don’t think that’s very likely given the timing and the fact that they’d have to port the A16 cores to N3 as opposed to just using for the N3 designed A17 cores.
We don't need no faster CPUs, or GPUs, or them highfalutin ray tracin' cores. All we need is Armv9, that'll fix everything!Yep. And they are going to update the armv
Thankfully, the games for Apple Silicon Macs won't be made based upon whatever some fusspot chucklehead says on the internet. All of that will happen behind the scenes, between Apple and game studios that are open to working with them. In the month prior to WWDC, we got as many "AAA" game announcements as we did in the previous three years. Resident Evil Village was the start, the festive WWDC season continued the trend, and if Apple holds the line, then the next WWDC will be even better.No wonder we have so many games on the Mac!
Oh you’re absolutely correct. It’s just depressing that this is the opinion of one of the main devs for Feral Interactive.Thankfully, the games for Apple Silicon Macs won't be made based upon whatever some fusspot chucklehead says on the internet.
On the one hand, it could be a sneaky way to discourage other devs from entering the market, thus reducing the number of titles with which Feral will have to compete. If studios port their own games, then Feral becomes obsolete. However, more likely, he's been at this for so long that he can't comprehend a world where Mac gaming is thriving. I think we owe Feral many thanks for their contributions to the Mac, but hopefully Mac users will no longer be dependent upon them for "AAA" games moving forward. I do hope they continue to contribute, but become one of many gaming houses that develop for Mac.Oh you’re absolutely correct. It’s just depressing that this is the opinion of one of the main devs for Feral Interactive.
Interesting thoughts. It Seems to be a trend from long time Mac users. He’s expressed similar ideas to Siracusa etc.On the one hand, it could be a sneaky way to discourage other devs from entering the market, thus reducing the number of titles with which Feral will have to compete. If studios port their own games, then Feral becomes obsolete. However, more likely, he's been at this for so long that he can't comprehend a world where Mac gaming is thriving. I think we owe Feral many thanks for their contributions to the Mac, but hopefully Mac users will no longer be dependent upon them for "AAA" games moving forward. I do hope they continue to contribute, but become one of many gaming houses that develop for Mac.
I think there's a measure of fatalism among many old-timey Mac users, both in the Apple media, and general user base, that because this is the way it was, so shall it always be. I think it's the same reason that Apple Silicon surprised a lot of folks. Up until the day the transition was announced, there were a multitude of users who insisted on their grandmother's grave that Apple would never leave Intel. It happened back during the PowerPC transition, as well. Many of these same people claimed that Boot Camp would never go away, but it did. The latest casualty are the third-party GPU crowd, who are currently in deep mourning over their long lost Mac Pro of yore.Interesting thoughts. It Seems to be a trend from long time Mac users. He’s expressed similar ideas to Siracusa etc.
I guess that's not enough for people maybe they want to know that Apple is really invested like they make their own TV shows or fitness. An Apple original AAA game or games shows that they have real interest and so far nothing like that has been shown.There had been signs that Apple is working with game developers, now they even have a porting kit and are openly talking about it, but that's not enough for some folks.
Strong agree.The gaming industry and the communities that surround it are toxic. You thought iOS vs Android was bad? Gamimg toxic levels are off the charts.
I miss the days of Gameboy and DS, where people enjoyed games...
It was toxic then too. Obviously the expansion of the internet just expanded everything with it, but people wrapped their identities and tribalism into their consumer purchases since the beginning - no different than sports or politics for many.The gaming industry and the communities that surround it are toxic. You thought iOS vs Android was bad? Gamimg toxic levels are off the charts.
I miss the days of Gameboy and DS, where people enjoyed games...
That’s weird I thought you could ship the shader converter? Unless I’m misunderstanding what he is referring to? Moving past his unfounded comment that Rosetta 2’s demise is imminent, he was rather unspecific as to what resources would be useful if GPT isn’t. What exactly is it that Apple should be doing if GPT is a waste of time? I’m not a game developer so I have no particular basis to challenge him on that, but I especially can’t judge it if the alternative is so nebulous.In case anyone is interested in the latest edition of “why Apple is bad and gaming will never come”. From everyone’s favorite Mac game dev.
”Yeah, the Game Porting Toolkit does exactly nothing to address the less cutting-edge games you mention.
As mentioned before, you can't ship anything that uses the D3D API -> Metal API bits or more generally the Wine wrapper portion that Apple provides. But lets say there comes a time when you can -- what happens when Rosetta 2 goes away? That can't be too far off. All these Wine-wrapped Intel binaries die. Hey, another Mac gaming apocalypse! Well, we're used to that now.
Putting that aside, the DXIL -> Metal IR shader library is a tool to port HLSL shaders authored in Shader Model 6 for D3D12 to macOS. Aside from maybe Modern Warfare 2 or Destiny 2, none of top 10 games you mention use D3D12 or Shader Model 6. Many of those use D3D11 with Shader Model 5. So now you're in a situation where your engine needs to use D3D12 to gain this help, and you are authoring your Metal shaders in HLSL on the PC while still having to write a Metal renderer for macOS.
I'd also like to see Slime Rancher 2 on macOS for my daughter - it is no exaggeration to say she's been asking when it will come out for about a year now. It's authored in Unity so the things Apple's GPT provides aren't nearly as impactful compared to Unity already having baked-in macOS support.
If Apple wanted to really help, they'd proactively provide resources for teams like the Slime Rancher devs to assist. Instead, they're dicking around with D3D emulation environments that you can't ship.
I think it's fair to say that many Apple developers "get" gaming, but Apple as a corporation still doesn't. It feels like the Game Porting Toolkit is born out of that schism as a means to "do something" without much thought for how impactful it actually is or what its goals actually are.”
It’s funny how the more Apple does for gaming, the less (and worse) it’s actually doing.
I’m pretty sure you are correct and the shader converter can be shipped, unless he means something else? Also Rosetta 2 is apple’s own work. Rosetta 1 was based on a company’s product called “quick transit’. They were bought by IBM so Apple had no choice but to stop shipping I believe.That’s weird I thought you could ship the shader converter? Unless I’m misunderstanding what he is referring to? Moving past his unfounded comment that Rosetta 2’s demise is imminent, he was rather unspecific as to what resources would be useful if GPT isn’t. What exactly is it that Apple should be doing if GPT is a waste of time? I’m not a game developer so I have no particular basis to challenge him on that, but I especially can’t judge it if the alternative is so nebulous.
Yeah as I wrote here:I’m pretty sure you are correct and the shader converter can be shipped, unless he means something else? Also Rosetta 2 is apple’s own work. Rosetta 1 was based on a company’s product called “quick transit’. They were bought by IBM so Apple had no choice but to stop shipping I believe.
I agree that he’s unspecific. Someone said he means actual hardware. He wants apple to give indie devs Mac hardware. Thing is, Apple wants big games, and they already have hardware. It’s always something with critics. I just finished hearing how Apple's efforts were no good because all these games are old, and now the efforts are no good because they aren’t providing help to port…old games.
A related question is how long Rosetta 2 will be around for … given that PC-land will remain firmly entrenched in x86 for the foreseeable future and that Apple has released the Game Porting Toolkit of which Rosetta will play a substantial part and, as has been mentioned previously, Apple doesn’t have to pay licensing for Rosetta 2 (unlike for 1) I think it’ll be around for the long haul - maybe eventually only/mainly as a developer tool, but still around nonetheless.
This is interesting from Asahi Lina regarding why Fex rather than Rosetta or box. Turns out FEX is much faster than Rosetta for 32-bit emulation.
View attachment 22486
And the licensing issue.
I’ll reserve judgement on what he means by resources until we hear from him - especially since just supplying hardware doesn’t seem like what he’s talking about. Again I’m not a game developer, but my impression is that buying computers is not the biggest expense or hurdle even for indie devs in porting. But maybe I’m wrong.
Where is this? Feral forums?I doubt you’ll ever see an answer. He’s quite slippery. Other posters have taken the ball and run with his narrative. We’re now at the point where a Chromebook is better than macOS because steam is being ported to it, with Proton I assume.
Can’t remember where I saw it, but I’m sure recently someone posted that proton only worked for 40% of the top 10 games on stream or something similar.
ArstechnicaWhere is this? Feral forums?
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