PPP - biggest fraud magnet in history

[SuperMatt]

Why are you more upset at rich people that abused the PPP program but you turn a blind eye to those that abused unemployment benefits? I guess because it was millions vs thousands? The only thing I am saying is that BOTH are wrong. But you seem just focused on rich people who bought lambos with PPP money when I am saying BOTH sides are wrong.

This has nothing to do with welfare queens. It has everything to do with holding everyone accountable for their actions.

I’m not condoning criminal behavior by anybody. But you are accusing many people of widespread criminal activity, based only on small-scale anecdotal evidence.

If you a) believe in accountability and b) have many acquaintances who are committing fraud, how many did you report to the authorities?

 

[hulugu]

Both sides have shitty people that take advantage of the system, but a lot of folks here only seem to be mad at one side all the time, but not the other. You should be upset at BOTH sides that are abusing the system. The wealthy that abused PPP and the lower waged earners that abused unemployment benefits.

I can't speak for your State, but I know in Texas the unemployment fraud was out of control. I know ONE person that lost their job legitimately and applied for and got unemployment assistance. But I could name half a dozen people or more that were abusing it. And other people I know could name half a dozen people they knew who were abusing it and so on. The Texas Workforce Commission was so swamped and overwhelmed and people knew this and took advantage of it. And reporting the fraud wouldn't have helped much when they're already overwhelmed and swamped. But they are slowly going back and going after those that committed fraud. They won't catch everyone just based on the sheer volume of it. So spare me the whole "heartless" BS. Lower waged earners are just as shitty of people as higher wage earners. People are shitty in general and will take advantage of a situation if you let them. I knew people that weren't even unemployed and were collecting benefits. And now that it is over more people have admitted they were lying and collecting benefits while it was being given. I guess now that its been over they feel comfortable admitting it.

But I guess we should just overlook it because they're just sooooo pooooooorrrrrr.

I don't care about low-level abuse of the unemployment benefits. Not only is the relative amount paltry, and spread among thousands of people, but it's almost always helping people who are barely holding together most days.

On the other hand, someone who steals millions is a huge problem and has the means and education to endure, but decides to cheat the system out of abject greed.

One guy was accused of defrauding PPP in a scheme worth $27 million. Meanwhile, one case in Florida found that one guy stole about $176,000 in pandemic unemployment funds by signing up as multiple people.

Tracking down the one jerk pulling down $27 million in PPP is worth 153 of cases of FPUC fraud.

Moreover, while fraud was significant owing to the design of these programs under Congress and the Trump administration, the Secret Service estimates that fraud was around $100 billion out of around $3.5 trillion in expenditures. That's a fraud rate of around 2.9 percent.

For public programs that's a very high fraud rate, but that also means that 97.1 percent of the funds were probably used well, and helped buttress a faltering economy at just the right time.

 

[SuperMatt]

I don't care about low-level abuse of the unemployment benefits. Not only is the relative amount paltry, and spread among thousands of people, but it's almost always helping people who are barely holding together most days.

On the other hand, someone who steals millions is a huge problem and has the means and education to endure, but decides to cheat the system out of abject greed.

One guy was accused of defrauding PPP in a scheme worth $27 million. Meanwhile, one case in Florida found that one guy stole about $176,000 in pandemic unemployment funds by signing up as multiple people.

Tracking down the one jerk pulling down $27 million in PPP is worth 153 of cases of FPUC fraud.

Moreover, while fraud was significant owing to the design of these programs under Congress and the Trump administration, the Secret Service estimates that fraud was around $100 billion out of around $3.5 trillion in expenditures. That's a fraud rate of around 2.9 percent.

For public programs that's a very high fraud rate, but that also means that 97.1 percent of the funds were probably used well, and helped buttress a faltering economy at just the right time.

Also, the article posted by @Chew Toy McCoy said that fully half of all unemployment fraud was by international fraudsters. The idea that average people committed the majority of fraud is not supported by the data.

The biggest issue was the programs didn’t put in proper safeguards and criminals took advantage. NOT that average people just didn’t feel like going back to work.

Let’s blame the actual criminals, not falsely accuse our friends and neighbors. Thanks for your post.

 

[TheHateMachine]

In Houston, I worked with a guy who was a complete snake in the grass and was just a lying cheat all the time. He was let go a few years back and started a home hospice care company with his wife who is a Hospice Nurse. He basically manages the company and their websites while she does the actual work. He submitted a PPP claim for 250k and 175k was forgiven by the government. He was claiming he has at least 10 employees which is complete bullshit. I have tried to report this multiple times but every time the link is either dead or dies partially through the process. It is a complete joke..

 

[hulugu]

In Houston, I worked with a guy who was a complete snake in the grass and was just a lying cheat all the time. He was let go a few years back and started a home hospice care company with his wife who is a Hospice Nurse. He basically manages the company and their websites while she does the actual work. He submitted a PPP claim for 250k and 175k was forgiven by the government. He was claiming he has at least 10 employees which is complete bullshit. I have tried to report this multiple times but every time the link is either dead or dies partially through the process. It is a complete joke..

There's a pretty big move at DOJ to investigate and prosecute PPP fraud, but they may be fundamentally overwhelmed by reports of fraud. The program was poorly planned and implemented by the Trump administration.

Also, the article posted by @Chew Toy McCoy said that fully half of all unemployment fraud was by international fraudsters. The idea that average people committed the majority of fraud is not supported by the data.

The biggest issue was the programs didn’t put in proper safeguards and criminals took advantage. NOT that average people just didn’t feel like going back to work.

Let’s blame the actual criminals, not falsely accuse our friends and neighbors. Thanks for your post.

Yeah, I didn't make it clear where the fraud came from. We see this with other tax credit programs too. Of course, there's going to be fraud. We expect there to be fraud, and maligning a program because it has fraud is a mistake.

I mean, the Pentagon literally lost millions, if not billions in cash during the Iraq War, and has made it impossible to even audit its own books. Yet, I'm supposed to worry that some schmuck made up an extra kid to get $1,200 in the child-tax credit? That's small fries. I want the Justice Department to run down every PPP scam first.

 

[Yoused]

The program was poorly planned and implemented by the Trump administration.

Do I recall that Mnuchin insisted he should have no oversight and he would disburse the funds under a cloak of secrecy?

 

[hulugu]

Do I recall that Mnuchin insisted he should have no oversight and he would disburse the funds under a cloak of secrecy?

Yep. Munchkin was warned that the distribution of $1 trillion needed better oversight, and the Trump administration fought such measures.

...
In a letter to four congressional committees, a panel of inspectors general overseeing a sweeping economic rescue law said an “ambiguity” in the law could block the watchdogs from conducting independent oversight.

The letter from Michael Horowitz and Robert Westbrooks, the officials leading the Pandemic Response Accountability Committee, cites a May 7 memo by the Treasury Department’s legal counsel concluding that disclosure requirements in the rescue law do not extend to more than $1 trillion in spending — nearly half of the $2.4 trillion committed to the rescue law by Congress

Mnunchin told Congress in May 2020 that the names of people who received PPP loans was "proprietary information" and did not have to be made public.

It was so bad that even Marco Rubio realized that PPP information should be made public.

Ultimately, the program's data was released to the public, and can be accessed here.

Meanwhile, a House subcommittee argued in March 2021 that the Trump administration was at fault, noting that the Small Business Administration's own Inspector General told Congress that SBA "'lowered the guardrails' by 'removing or weakening of controls' in the [Economic Injury Disaster Loan] program, which 'significantly increased the risk of program fraud.'"

The subcommittee also found that "Significant potential fraud has also been identified in PPP following the Trump Administration’s refusal to implement basic fraud controls. On September 1, 2020, the Select Subcommittee released an analysis identifying more than $4 billion in potentially fraudulent PPP loans."

SBA's own analysis found that $4.6 billion was probably fraudulent, including $3.6 billion that went to borrows on the "do not pay" list.

SBA's OIG also said that 55,000 loans worth $7 billion was made to "potentially ineligible businesses, including companies that exceeded maximum loan amounts based on the number of employees, exceeded maximum business size standards, or received TINs after the program cutoff date."

Notably, "Federal watchdogs received an unprecedented number of tips and complaints about potential fraud in these programs. SBA OIG has received a total of 148,525 hotline complaints relating to PPP and EIDL, a 19,500% increase over the approximately 700 to 800 hotline complaints the Inspector General receives in a typical year."

Got a problem with PPP or EIDL? It was the Trump administration's fuckup.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

There's a pretty big move at DOJ to investigate and prosecute PPP fraud, but they may be fundamentally overwhelmed by reports of fraud. The program was poorly planned and implemented by the Trump administration.



Yeah, I didn't make it clear where the fraud came from. We see this with other tax credit programs too. Of course, there's going to be fraud. We expect there to be fraud, and maligning a program because it has fraud is a mistake.

I mean, the Pentagon literally lost millions, if not billions in cash during the Iraq War, and has made it impossible to even audit its own books. Yet, I'm supposed to worry that some schmuck made up an extra kid to get $1,200 in the child-tax credit? That's small fries. I want the Justice Department to run down every PPP scam first.

‘They’ll probably start the investigations at the bottom and then lose funding/manpower/interest as they start moving up the food chain. Funny how that works. Maybe they’ll levy some fines towards the higher levels which will be less than the money they fraudulently took. That’ll teach them!

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Do I recall that Mnuchin insisted he should have no oversight and he would disburse the funds under a cloak of secrecy?

Along with the entire GOP.

I read earlier that Sanders said he would kill a bill, and he has the power in this case, unless it includes over site and accountability for those who receive the money. The horror! I believe the money is for US based chip makers. Something that should be a no brainer will probably be heavily debated. Maybe he should tell them the chip makers are inner city black people. Then the level of accountability monitoring would be off the charts.