Southern border crisis

SuperMatt said:
If America, one of the richest countries in the world, cannot prevent the influx over our borders, even with Trump for 4 years who was determined to do so… then how could we expect Mexico to keep people out?
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For one thing Mexico has a lot smaller southern border, but I’ve also heard they’ve mostly had a “You can’t stay here. Just move it along.” attitude. I haven’t heard this, but I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if there is resentment over our drug demand turning their countries into war zones and we don’t seem to give a shit until the refugees are slamming our southern border.

Read an article this morning that said the Mexican government is putting guards on the Mexican side of a border river with Guatemala to keep people from crossing the border, but I believe it's over Covid. Guatemalan merchants are pissed because it's preventing them from doing business as usual with Mexico by simply paddling across the river. Doesn't sound exactly sound like a secure border or hard to secure border to me.

I heard in the 70’s and before people would frequently cross the border back and forth and it wasn’t really that big of a deal. Then the 80’s came and our drug demand and wars on communism in Central America and here we are.
 
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JayMysteri0 said:
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1375642056379441158/

Checks notes... The point of that whole thing was what again?

American made meth is in trouble? Want a bill to support it?
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He's praising the success of the cartels who don't have to deal with big government or regulations. We can't compete in that environment. Our biker gangs are hamstrung. Just another example of American jobs being lost to unfair foreign competition. Or at least that's what I got out of it.
 
Chew Toy McCoy said:
He's praising the success of the cartels who don't have to deal with big government or regulations. We can't compete in that environment. Our biker gangs are hamstrung. Just another example of American jobs being lost to unfair foreign competition. Or at least that's what I got out of it.
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Seeing as you previously used a South Park avatar, I'm imagining what they would do with this.
 
Chew Toy McCoy said:
He's praising the success of the cartels who don't have to deal with big government or regulations. We can't compete in that environment. Our biker gangs are hamstrung. Just another example of American jobs being lost to unfair foreign competition. Or at least that's what I got out of it.
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The thing is, the term cartel got associated with south-of-the-border organized crime revolving around drug production and trafficking, but if we look at the definition, it's clear that we have our own cartel problem in the USA:

"A cartel is a group of independent market participants who collude with each other in order to improve their profits and dominate the market."

It's also anti-competitive and thus anticapitalistic. Yet, hardcore pro-capitalists hardly complain about this, because in reality they are corporatists rather than capitalists themselves.
 
The war on drugs has failed to stop the violence that is fueling this situation. We've known what the likely solution is for quite some time now.

The illegal immigration problem isn't going to end until we solve the violence in their native countries. That isn't going to end until we put the drug cartels out of business, and that's not going to happen until we start making those drugs legal and available here.

It's a scary thought to most people, and frankly I'm not entirely comfortable with it either, but that's why I'm a liberal: I'm willing to try it. If it helps, huzzah.

I see two problems with going forward with this, though. One is obviously resistance. There may have to be some federal pilot program with selected states to show whether legal acquisition of street drugs is a workable idea here.

And if it is, that leads to the second problem. Violent cartels are not going to give up their power or their profits willingly. I can see them going on an assassination rampage against any politician who's involved in cutting in on "their" business.
 
P_X said:
The thing is, the term cartel got associated with south-of-the-border organized crime revolving around drug production and trafficking, but if we look at the definition, it's clear that we have our own cartel problem in the USA:

"A cartel is a group of independent market participants who collude with each other in order to improve their profits and dominate the market."

It's also anti-competitive and thus anticapitalistic. Yet, hardcore pro-capitalists hardly complain about this, because in reality they are corporatists rather than capitalists themselves.
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On some level the antithesis of socialism is the free market, but I guarantee if you asked any successful free market worshipper if they wanted a truly free market they would say "Fine, let them have some FREE STUFF". At the end of the day their ability to manipulate the markets and get government bailouts is far more profitable than the loss they would experience from the loss of certain sectors to the government.
 
Chew Toy McCoy said:
There’s no shame in admitting there is a crisis
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No shame, perhaps, but only if you frame it reasonably.

It is not the CRISIS!!!1!1!! that the White-Wing wants us to believe it is. It is a difficult situation that should be addressed with level heads, excluding all heads with chunks of hair and scalp torn out.

Most importantly, we absolutely must not allow "CRISIS!" to obscure everything else and prevent us from approaching real solutions. Solutions that address the underlying problems, like unfucking the Central American countries that we have spent so many years, nay, decades making a mess of, so that immigration pressure might ease at the source.

Fighting only the symptoms does not fend off an ill the we are actively fomenting.
 
Yoused said:
No shame, perhaps, but only if you frame it reasonably.

It is not the CRISIS!!!1!1!! that the White-Wing wants us to believe it is. It is a difficult situation that should be addressed with level heads, excluding all heads with chunks of hair and scalp torn out.

Most importantly, we absolutely must not allow "CRISIS!" to obscure everything else and prevent us from approaching real solutions. Solutions that address the underlying problems, like unfucking the Central American countries that we have spent so many years, nay, decades making a mess of, so that immigration pressure might ease at the source.

Fighting only the symptoms does not fend off an ill the we are actively fomenting.
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This.
 
Yoused said:
No shame, perhaps, but only if you frame it reasonably.

It is not the CRISIS!!!1!1!! that the White-Wing wants us to believe it is. It is a difficult situation that should be addressed with level heads, excluding all heads with chunks of hair and scalp torn out.

Most importantly, we absolutely must not allow "CRISIS!" to obscure everything else and prevent us from approaching real solutions. Solutions that address the underlying problems, like unfucking the Central American countries that we have spent so many years, nay, decades making a mess of, so that immigration pressure might ease at the source.

Fighting only the symptoms does not fend off an ill the we are actively fomenting.
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There’s a middle ground. The right wants to advertise this as the greatest crisis our southern border has ever experienced. IMO Biden goofed when he went in the other direction early on with a “Totally under control, nothing to see here” mentality. He’s since changed that tone.

At his press conference when asked about a report where a Central American mother said she sent her children to the border specifically because Biden is President and she never would have tried while Trump was President, Biden largely “Listen, man” blew it off. I know that seems like a loaded question that backs Biden into a corner but no good answer, but there is an easy response. That response is there needs to be consistent border and immigration policy regardless of who is President or which party is in control and that’s what his administration is aiming to achieve.

The fact is administration change based border flooding are as predictable as gun purchase surges. Even Trump had border surges. It shouldn’t matter who the President is or the perception that it matters. This shouldn’t be an issue allowed to decide elections.
 
Chew Toy McCoy said:
There’s a middle ground. The right wants to advertise this as the greatest crisis our southern border has ever experienced. IMO Biden goofed when he went in the other direction early on with a “Totally under control, nothing to see here” mentality. He’s since changed that tone.
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My point that it is not a “CRISIS”. It is a difficult situation that needs to be addressed. The people using “crisis” are trying to generate anger and panic, trying to put the country off-balance.

Our dojo told told the class “Never go into a fight angry”, because, that is when you make mistakes and get hurt. The Rat-Wing are trying to make us angry (and panicked), so that they can take advantage of us, make us do things even stupider than what they do. Take a step back here and pay attention to how you are being manipulated here.
 
Chew Toy McCoy said:
There’s a middle ground. The right wants to advertise this as the greatest crisis our southern border has ever experienced. IMO Biden goofed when he went in the other direction early on with a “Totally under control, nothing to see here” mentality. He’s since changed that tone.

At his press conference when asked about a report where a Central American mother said she sent her children to the border specifically because Biden is President and she never would have tried while Trump was President, Biden largely “Listen, man” blew it off. I know that seems like a loaded question that backs Biden into a corner but no good answer, but there is an easy response. That response is there needs to be consistent border and immigration policy regardless of who is President or which party is in control and that’s what his administration is aiming to achieve.

The fact is administration change based border flooding are as predictable as gun purchase surges. Even Trump had border surges. It shouldn’t matter who the President is or the perception that it matters. This shouldn’t be an issue allowed to decide elections.
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Trump completely demolished border policy that had been in place for a long time. He used brutality as a deterrent, abandoned targeted deportations, etc. in order to create fear. Even if you got a parking ticket, you could be deported. Even if you were brought over as a 3-year old and never did anything wrong, you could be deported. This was his racist trash philosophy of border enforcement.

Of course the minute he left office, there was going to be a run on the border. That’s a result of his policies.
 
Yoused said:
My point that it is not a “CRISIS”. It is a difficult situation that needs to be addressed. The people using “crisis” are trying to generate anger and panic, trying to put the country off-balance.

Our dojo told told the class “Never go into a fight angry”, because, that is when you make mistakes and get hurt. The Rat-Wing are trying to make us angry (and panicked), so that they can take advantage of us, make us do things even stupider than what they do. Take a step back here and pay attention to how you are being manipulated here.
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Whenever possible I try to not preach to the choir here and instead share the hymns the other choir is rocking. I think it’s naïve and dangerous to think with the head of the snake cut off from direct action that the deplorables will just pack it in and return to their under rock cribs. Democrats have a razor-thin majority in Congress and the right has already proven blatant lies are their means to an end. So the left doesn’t need to add more fuel to the fire, with things like denying the media access to the facilities. All news sources, left and right, have been critical of that decision. Clearly that decision was made to either hide the reality or to not give the media the opportunity to spin it into something worse, but whatever the reason, denying access can’t be spun into something positive.

I see this as the classic sales personality vs the operations personality. The sales personality tends to overpromise and just pray they can deliver. Frequently this personality has little knowledge of all the working pieces that need to come together to pull things off and then when they predictably fail at delivering their promise they end up scapegoating as much as possible when they shouldn’t have made that promise in the first place. The operations personality has an intimate knowledge of all the working parts and possible failure scenarios. They tend to underpromise but then over deliver. Personally, I think the operations personality is the preferable of the two, but most of the time our politicians have the sales personality and that is largely responsible for a lot of our messes.

On covid Biden used the operations personality and I think as a result will probably be seen as a success on it, aside from the assholes who insist the success of every politician they don’t like can actually be tied to an intricate web going back 100 years and every politician they like in that web being the real heroes. On the border he hit the ground with the sales personality and I think that’s a real mistake for any politician to make, regardless of party. Then you end up going from an impenetrable wall that’s never going to happen, both in being completed or being impenetrable, to a message that could easily be heard as “Just come on up! You’ve been pre-approved. Our hassle-free border ambassadors are here to help!”
 
SuperMatt said:
Trump completely demolished border policy that had been in place for a long time. He used brutality as a deterrent, abandoned targeted deportations, etc. in order to create fear. Even if you got a parking ticket, you could be deported. Even if you were brought over as a 3-year old and never did anything wrong, you could be deported. This was his racist trash philosophy of border enforcement.
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It's not related to the border, but let's not forget the Detroit man who'd been in this country virtually all his life but was deported to Iraq, a country he'd never been to and where he didn't even speak the language, and where he died of an inability to get his insulin.

Yeah. Trump's deportation policy has blood on it.
 
Thomas Veil said:
It's not related to the border, but let's not forget the Detroit man who'd been in this country virtually all his life but was deported to Iraq, a country he'd never been to and where he didn't even speak the language, and where he died of an inability to get his insulin.

Yeah. Trump's deportation policy has blood on it.
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Perhaps more apropos would be the story of Manuel Cano, who grew up in Iowa from age 3 and was nigh upon HS graduation when INS (or whatever they are called now) finally captured him and deported him to Zacatecas where, after less than a month in that unfamiliar place, a gang waylaid his cousin and him and did them in most ungraciously.
 

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