Studio Display XDR and my wallet's demise

[Jimmyjames]

Sorry for the noob question, but what work do folks that buy these displays need 120hz (or VRR/Adaptive Sync) for?

Apart from the huge gaming market on Mac, video editing can benefit greatly due to many clips having different frame rates. Also even stuff like scrolling large images in photoshop where frame rates drop. VRR can keep it looking smoother.

 

[diamond.g]

Apart from the huge gaming market on Mac, video editing can benefit greatly due to many clips having different frame rates. Also even stuff like scrolling large images in photoshop where frame rates drop. VRR can keep it looking smoother.

Does Apple publish the VRR window for their devices? As far as I can tell most devices only support VRR 48-120Hz. There are a few GSync devices that go to 40, but I've not seen many (any) support refresh rates for VRR less than that (should trigger LFC).

I also didn't think gaming on mac is that big (I've still not seen anyone show that VRR works on macOS, but I could be looking in the wrong places).

 

[Jimmyjames]

Does Apple publish the VRR window for their devices? As far as I can tell most devices only support VRR 48-120Hz. There are a few GSync devices that go to 40, but I've not seen many (any) support refresh rates for VRR less than that (should trigger LFC).

It’s the same on this display. 48-120hz.

I also didn't think gaming on mac is that big (I've still not seen anyone show that VRR works on macOS, but I could be looking in the wrong places).

That was my attempt at humour.

 

[casperes1996]

I have the same question. I've had my Studio Display for around three years plugged into a Mac Studio and use it every day. I purchased the Studio Display mainly for processing my photo image files in Lightroom, and getting tired of continually needing to calibrate my previous LG display with a calibration puck (and wasting lots of expensive ink and printer paper in the process) when making prints. With my Studio Display I set it up once using one its built-in profiles and haven't touched it since.

I also use my Mac Studio and Studio Display for other regular computer purposes, ie reading the news, writing letters, paying bills, participating in forums, doing research, etc. Even though my display has a 60 Hz refresh rate, I've never noticed that being irritating/flickering or in any way suboptimal (whether viewing a static page or scrolling). Perhaps that has something to do with display phosphor lifetime/decay - just a guess.

I know at another tech forum people make refresh rate out to be a huge deal. I suspect a lot of that is from people needing to criticize Apple daily (going back two decades) in order to feel good by asserting what they believe is some kind of power. Just another guess.

Video is definitely a use-case. ProMotion could work just as well for that though, nicely supporting 24, 25, 30, 50, 60 and high frame rate video signals. So ProMotion would be fine too but nice with VRR. Running at higher refresh rates generally also helps with response times and image persistence. And then there are also lunatics like me who will be utilising this, at least in part, for that huuuuge Mac gaming market

I also didn't think gaming on mac is that big (I've still not seen anyone show that VRR works on macOS, but I could be looking in the wrong places).

Absolutely humongous. We get several hundred listeners regularly now on the Mac Game Cast. (tongue in cheek; But we genuinely have seen a huge increase in gaming interest since Apple Silicon on the Mac. By no means a big gaming market but it is bigger than it's been the past 15 year I think. Probably even longer

 

[casperes1996]

Good news btw. It is now confirmed what happens when you plug in an unsupported MacBook Neo. It will just run at 4K60 but still work

 

[Vincent Hannah]

Higher refresh rate displays are much nicer once you get exposed to them. It's just that the vast majority of people have never used a desktop display with greater than 60Hz. Some people will notice the benefit more than others, the same way that some people notice non-native resolution interpolation more than others.

But the bigger benefit to the new Studio Display XDR is the 2,300 local dimming zones and the contrast/brightness/deep blacks they will enable.That should be noticeable to everyone. Whether those two features together are worth $3,300 I leave as an exercise for the reader.

 

[Andropov]

Sorry for the noob question, but what work do folks that buy these displays need 120hz (or VRR/Adaptive Sync) for?

I don't care much about high refresh rates (I can barely notice it) but it feels wrong spending $1700 in a monitor and not getting the same refresh rate as my 5+ years old MacBook Pro. Feels like buying something that's already outdated.

 

[Nycturne]

Does Apple publish the VRR window for their devices? As far as I can tell most devices only support VRR 48-120Hz. There are a few GSync devices that go to 40, but I've not seen many (any) support refresh rates for VRR less than that (should trigger LFC).

The nice thing about video use cases is that the VRR window range is less important, so long as you can find an integer multiple of your target rate within the window. So long as you can do that, you'll can get the cadence right and it will look fine.

I also didn't think gaming on mac is that big (I've still not seen anyone show that VRR works on macOS, but I could be looking in the wrong places).

Apple's whole "ProMotion" thing is built on top of VRR to make it seamless. Whether or not it's adopted by games is another matter. Since I built a small PC for games, I haven't followed too closely how quickly game devs have kept up with the Mac's capabilities. But my M1 MBP was able to use VRR with my 4K 120Hz monitor for years, and I've seen some reports of folks claiming that they can enable/use adaptive sync in games on a Mac.

Outside this new display though, I _think_ only the M1 and later MacBook Pros with 14/16" screens can do it without using a 3rd party display.

Use Adaptive Sync with your Mac

When you’re playing a game on Mac, use Adaptive Sync to help your display render the content correctly by dynamically adjusting the refresh rate.

support.apple.com

Someone showing off Adaptive Sync on Monterey in a couple real games:

 

[diamond.g]

The nice thing about video use cases is that the VRR window range is less important, so long as you can find an integer multiple of your target rate within the window. So long as you can do that, you'll can get the cadence right and it will look fine.



Apple's whole "ProMotion" thing is built on top of VRR to make it seamless. Whether or not it's adopted by games is another matter. Since I built a small PC for games, I haven't followed too closely how quickly game devs have kept up with the Mac's capabilities. But my M1 MBP was able to use VRR with my 4K 120Hz monitor for years, and I've seen some reports of folks claiming that they can enable/use adaptive sync in games on a Mac.

Outside this new display though, I _think_ only the M1 and later MacBook Pros with 14/16" screens can do it without using a 3rd party display.

Use Adaptive Sync with your Mac

When you’re playing a game on Mac, use Adaptive Sync to help your display render the content correctly by dynamically adjusting the refresh rate.

support.apple.com

Someone showing off Adaptive Sync on Monterey in a couple real games:

As far as I know game developers don't have to do anything on their end to enable VRR/Adaptive sync. it should be a function of the OS/Drivers/Hardware. I've noticed that anytime anyone posts Metal HUD shots/videos, the display refresh rate never matches the framerate (which it 100% should when in the VRR window).

Maybe the builtin display doesn't actually support VRR.

 

[casperes1996]

As far as I know game developers don't have to do anything on their end to enable VRR/Adaptive sync. it should be a function of the OS/Drivers/Hardware. I've noticed that anytime anyone posts Metal HUD shots/videos, the display refresh rate never matches the framerate (which it 100% should when in the VRR window).

Maybe the builtin display doesn't actually support VRR.

ProMotion is not VRR. ProMotion has a set of fixed frame rates it can work at, that it can just switch between instantly and adapt to content with. The set of frame rates supported by any given ProMotion display isn't fixed. There's an episode in my podcast where we go over this. Apple only has quite limited documentation on the supported frame rates for their displays, but they do list some sets of supported refresh rates. One iPad I roughly remember was 10, 24, 25 30, and the multiples going up to 120. I've never seen a Mac ProMotion go below 48 (set to 48 when playing back 24FPS video content). And unlike regular AdaptiveSync, VRR, you do need to do a little as a developer to get the most out of ProMotion - Some stuff is automatic but you can help inform the display what fremerates you can probably hit on a frame-by-frame basis - But you should effectively run as if V-SYNC is enabled, but you get the opportunity to refresh either after 8ms, 16ms, 20.833ms, or whatever your ProMotion display supports.

macOS does also fully support regular VRR AdaptiveSync. Studio Display XDR uses that for example, and my current Asus monitor does too. But ProMotion isn't fully the same thing

 

[Nycturne]

Maybe the builtin display doesn't actually support VRR.

It's possible Apple doesn't expose out the underpinnings via AppKit/Metal for the internal display. But if the screen is actually able to slow down the framerate to match the requested framerate, it kinda needs to be able to use adaptive sync in some form. Something that the iPad Pro has done from the start of providing a 120Hz display. So it'd be a little odd to not also do it on the MacBook Pro for the same reason (battery life).

ProMotion is not VRR. ProMotion has a set of fixed frame rates it can work at, that it can just switch between instantly and adapt to content with. The set of frame rates supported by any given ProMotion display isn't fixed. There's an episode in my podcast where we go over this. Apple only has quite limited documentation on the supported frame rates for their displays, but they do list some sets of supported refresh rates. One iPad I roughly remember was 10, 24, 25 30, and the multiples going up to 120. I've never seen a Mac ProMotion go below 48 (set to 48 when playing back 24FPS video content). And unlike regular AdaptiveSync, VRR, you do need to do a little as a developer to get the most out of ProMotion - Some stuff is automatic but you can help inform the display what fremerates you can probably hit on a frame-by-frame basis - But you should effectively run as if V-SYNC is enabled, but you get the opportunity to refresh either after 8ms, 16ms, 20.833ms, or whatever your ProMotion display supports.

macOS does also fully support regular VRR AdaptiveSync. Studio Display XDR uses that for example, and my current Asus monitor does too. But ProMotion isn't fully the same thing

We can get super muddled on this point. How Apple exposes things is kinda all over the place. What you describe here is useful for the iPad and iPhone cases, and for a multi-window environment on the Mac where everyone has to play nice and the goal is to ensure that you can always pick a frame rate that will allow cadence matching of all requested frame rates (120Hz is in that butter zone so long as you aren't doing PAL + NTSC framerates at the same time). But to get the battery benefits of lower refresh rates without redoing the handshake, you're still going to be invoking adaptive sync under the covers. Apple admits as much in their 2021 WWDC talk about adaptive sync in macOS 12.

Then you have Metal and AppKit which also expose Adaptive Sync details more directly, which applies different requirements on the software wanting to leverage it.

The more interesting thing in my mind is why Apple would use adaptive sync on a MacBook Pro, but not expose it out to the appropriate APIs. Does that mean that unlike iPad/iPhone, it's still a fixed refresh rate display, and so the battery life benefits don't apply on the Mac? That would be surprising.

 

[casperes1996]

It's possible Apple doesn't expose out the underpinnings via AppKit/Metal for the internal display. But if the screen is actually able to slow down the framerate to match the requested framerate, it kinda needs to be able to use adaptive sync in some form. Something that the iPad Pro has done from the start of providing a 120Hz display. So it'd be a little odd to not also do it on the MacBook Pro for the same reason (battery life).



We can get super muddled on this point. How Apple exposes things is kinda all over the place. What you describe here is useful for the iPad and iPhone cases, and for a multi-window environment on the Mac where everyone has to play nice and the goal is to ensure that you can always pick a frame rate that will allow cadence matching of all requested frame rates (120Hz is in that butter zone so long as you aren't doing PAL + NTSC framerates at the same time). But to get the battery benefits of lower refresh rates without redoing the handshake, you're still going to be invoking adaptive sync under the covers. Apple admits as much in their 2021 WWDC talk about adaptive sync in macOS 12.

Then you have Metal and AppKit which also expose Adaptive Sync details more directly, which applies different requirements on the software wanting to leverage it.

The more interesting thing in my mind is why Apple would use adaptive sync on a MacBook Pro, but not expose it out to the appropriate APIs. Does that mean that unlike iPad/iPhone, it's still a fixed refresh rate display, and so the battery life benefits don't apply on the Mac? That would be surprising.

I am responding right before heading to bed so scarce detail in this response.

But in short; all screens labeled pro motion. iPhone, iPad and Mac, will not behave like a full variable rate refresh display regardless of the API used. You cannot for example get any pro motion monitor to refresh with an interval of 18.8ms which would be around 52hz.

But using the exact same apis I can get that refresh rate on my adaptive sync monitor.

macOS also labels it differently in display settings and their written developer docs (I can find the reference on Monday if you ping me about it) lists a fixed set of supported refresh rates specifically for on if the iPad and iPhone pro motion monitors.

 

[Nycturne]

But in short; all screens labeled pro motion. iPhone, iPad and Mac, will not behave like a full variable rate refresh display regardless of the API used. You cannot for example get any pro motion monitor to refresh with an interval of 18.8ms which would be around 52hz.

That's not the part that I was arguing?

 

[casperes1996]

That's not the part that I was arguing?

Sorry, I think I've lost the plot of it all then.
Didn't mean to misrepresent what you're saying.
It's possible I'm just not understanding what you're saying and we're in complete agreement
I'm not really sure what to ask to clarify cause I'm not sure where the misunderstanding lies.

 

[cbum]

My wallet is cowering in fear,

Here's what you do:
1.Take out any cards you may need to pay for the stuff before you make any transactions.
2. Stuff some bills into your wallet to make it feel nice and full.

There. It will never even know what happened!

 

[Nycturne]

Sorry, I think I've lost the plot of it all then.
Didn't mean to misrepresent what you're saying.
It's possible I'm just not understanding what you're saying and we're in complete agreement
I'm not really sure what to ask to clarify cause I'm not sure where the misunderstanding lies.

So, the thing is, ProMotion displays, despite the locked choice of refresh rates, do not use a handshake to renegotiate the refresh rate when it changes the display refresh rate. So that means using adaptive sync tech to control the display itself (i.e. the display hardware must support variable refresh rates). That doesn't mean Apple is exposing that capability to developers, and I'm even suggesting there are good reasons not to. But in order to spin the refresh rate up and down on the fly like that, you're going to be doing it on top of adaptive sync tech under the covers. Apple even calls out the iPad with ProMotion as a variable refresh rate display in their 2021 WWDC talk on Adaptive Sync on macOS.

For example, App A wants 24Hz, App B wants 30, and App C wants 60. You can just do the math and crank the screen up to 120 Hz and cadence for all 3 apps is correct. No tearing. Great. Once the 24Hz app goes away, then you can drop to 60 and save battery (see: Safari). But if you let an app ask for that 52Hz, well, now the math stops mathing. Something has to give. So ProMotion locking things down to the most common refresh rates that are all factors of 120, and limiting ProMotion to screens that do 120Hz makes a lot of sense if zero tearing across these multiple refresh rates is your goal.

What I'm more surprised at is this: If Apple is building all this on adaptive sync displays, why not enable the AppKit/Metal VRR capabilities for the internal display too on MacBook Pros? They already require full screen or game mode to operate which is a reasonable restriction for both internal and external displays. The only reason I can think of that isn't "because they don't want to" is that perhaps the MBP is a 120Hz fixed display, which means that any refresh rate you want must be a factor of 120 in order to avoid issues. But that nullifies the battery life benefit of all this ramping up and down.

 

[diamond.g]

So, the thing is, ProMotion displays, despite the locked choice of refresh rates, do not use a handshake to renegotiate the refresh rate when it changes the display refresh rate. So that means using adaptive sync tech to control the display itself (i.e. the display hardware must support variable refresh rates). That doesn't mean Apple is exposing that capability to developers, and I'm even suggesting there are good reasons not to. But in order to spin the refresh rate up and down on the fly like that, you're going to be doing it on top of adaptive sync tech under the covers. Apple even calls out the iPad with ProMotion as a variable refresh rate display in their 2021 WWDC talk on Adaptive Sync on macOS.

For example, App A wants 24Hz, App B wants 30, and App C wants 60. You can just do the math and crank the screen up to 120 Hz and cadence for all 3 apps is correct. No tearing. Great. Once the 24Hz app goes away, then you can drop to 60 and save battery (see: Safari). But if you let an app ask for that 52Hz, well, now the math stops mathing. Something has to give. So ProMotion locking things down to the most common refresh rates that are all factors of 120, and limiting ProMotion to screens that do 120Hz makes a lot of sense if zero tearing across these multiple refresh rates is your goal.

What I'm more surprised at is this: If Apple is building all this on adaptive sync displays, why not enable the AppKit/Metal VRR capabilities for the internal display too on MacBook Pros? They already require full screen or game mode to operate which is a reasonable restriction for both internal and external displays. The only reason I can think of that isn't "because they don't want to" is that perhaps the MBP is a 120Hz fixed display, which means that any refresh rate you want must be a factor of 120 in order to avoid issues. But that nullifies the battery life benefit of all this ramping up and down.

Wait, does Apple allow windowed apps to drive particular refresh rates on a VRR display?