Titanic Sight Seeing Sub...

[Roller]

I just have to say, on Sunday multiple sources detected the implosion. There was, honestly, zero cause for hope. None. Yet the media milked the story for every morsel of entertainment value that they could wiring out of it.

Freedom of the press, yaay.

From what I've read, the fact that the sound was detected by the navy was shared with the Coast Guard, but not publicly. And the search went on, leading people to think there was a chance the passengers would be recovered. But I agree with you that the press has done more coverage than might have been appropriate - the same thing happens whenever a "human interest" story hits. It reminded me of when Jessica McClure fell down a well in Texas in 1986 - it was impossible to avoid for days.

 

[AG_PhamD]

I just have to say, on Sunday multiple sources detected the implosion. There was, honestly, zero cause for hope. None. Yet the media milked the story for every morsel of entertainment value that they could wiring out of it.

Freedom of the press, yaay.

I was wondering this myself. The Navy has long had hydrophones (ie the SOSUS program) one would expect could detect such an implosion. They have detected numerous catastrophes this way, including the Argentinian navy submarine several years ago than sank. In fact, you’d assume the research vessel used to launch the submarine would have hydrophones that would detect such implosions.

Yeah, I’m pretty disgusted how much the media milked this. These accidents are not unheard (there’s a YouTube channel I found a while back that talks all about diving accidents- interesting stuff). Meanwhile an overloaded boat carrying 700+ migrants sinks killing 600+ and hardly any attention.

I also find it pretty gross criticizing the tourists on this submersible. Even if they weren’t well aware of specific design flaws (which I suspect they had heard some discussion of but were lured into a false sense of security given the past successful dives- which likely was the cause of the mishap in the first place), they knew descending 13,000ft was dangerous. That’s like attempting to climb Mount Everest and assuming no-minimal risk involved. Or space tourists assuming blasting off on a rocket into the vacuum of space is a totally safe adventure. And for all these people coming out the woodwork to talk about how dangerous this submersible was, I have to ask why they did not make their concerns made earlier- or were they too lulled by the successful dives? I’ve always had the understanding of you know something is wrong (especially if you have expertise in a relevant field), you have moral obligation to voice your concerns. That is not to say Oceangate likely has some liability here in operating a submersible with known inherent design issues- especially if they did not explicitly cite them.

In medicine when people are given “experimental” drugs, researchers must explicitly tell people the drug is not a treatment- it may not treat the disease at all and the side effects are not understood but may include xyz based on how the medication works. I would hope a side on an “experimental” submersible would come with similar disclaimers, including citing the controversial design facets.

As someone who has a good understanding of safety on boats and has read a lot into the the history of naval submarines as my grandfather was a submariner in WII, this seemed like the likely case all along. I understand wanting to provide hope for family and friends, but being honest setting the expectations is also important.

This incident has brought forth so much media ignorance from the simple pronunciation of the word “bow” (not bow as in bow tie) to talking about searching and recovering the bodies of the imploded submersible… 6000lbs per sq ft 13k beneath the surface… I’ve never seen what happens to a human body under these conditions but I can’t imagine there would be much left to find/recover even if it was practically feasible.

 

[AG_PhamD]

As someone who pays some attention to bike engineering, I’ve seen things that would make me worried about using carbon fiber for a pressure vessel. Carbon fiber in bikes has two undesirable properties. First, it tends to hide stress fractures and is generally difficult to assay its condition. Second, when it does fail, it’s catastrophic. It shatters and explodes because of the stress the shaped composite material is always under. The general rule I’ve seen with composites and bikes is that if you do have the frame fail, you will eat dirt when it happens, and you won’t get any warning when it does.

Meanwhile, James Cameron seems to be highly critical during an interview today. While I was aware of his Deepsea Challenger work, and that he had visited the Titanic, I wasn’t aware he made over 30 dives to the Titanic.

It’s not just the carbon fiber too- it apparently was a carbon fiber tube with titanium end caps, so to speak. I’m not an engineer, but I know enough chemistry to understand different materials will expand and contract differently under different environmental conditions. That seems like a possible issue right there.

 

[Nycturne]

It’s not just the carbon fiber too- it apparently was a carbon fiber tube with titanium end caps, so to speak. I’m not an engineer, but I know enough chemistry to understand different materials will expand and contract differently under different environmental conditions. That seems like a possible issue right there.

Oh, there are multiple flaws in the design, I was just pointing out some of the issues of using carbon fiber for this application. As for material mis-match. With titanium and carbon fiber being rather rigid materials with high bulk modulus values, I would say not impossible, but not super likely either. The window wasn’t rated for this depth so that’s another failure point waiting to happen.

I guess we will know more once the recovery operation wraps up and can present what they learned.

Yeah, I’m pretty disgusted how much the media milked this. These accidents are not unheard (there’s a YouTube channel I found a while back that talks all about diving accidents- interesting stuff). Meanwhile an overloaded boat carrying 700+ migrants sinks killing 600+ and hardly any attention.

I’m not. Cable news was built on this stuff.

And for all these people coming out the woodwork to talk about how dangerous this submersible was, I have to ask why they did not make their concerns made earlier- or were they too lulled by the successful dives? I’ve always had the understanding of you know something is wrong (especially if you have expertise in a relevant field), you have moral obligation to voice your concerns. That is not to say Oceangate likely has some liability here in operating a submersible with known inherent design issues- especially if they did not explicitly cite them.

Who are you referring to? Mostly what I’ve heard about is a whistleblower that got fired for voicing their concerns.

In medicine when people are given “experimental” drugs, researchers must explicitly tell people the drug is not a treatment- it may not treat the disease at all and the side effects are not understood but may include xyz based on how the medication works. I would hope a side on an “experimental” submersible would come with similar disclaimers, including citing the controversial design facets.

You’d hope, but generally regulations come into being because of the mistakes of the past. Generally folks in the deep sea exploration side are cautious, rather than reckless. They want to come home to their families and are aware of the risks involved. The CEO of OceanGate was not cautious. I wouldn’t be surprised if this event does cause nations to clamp down a bit on this however they can.

As someone who has a good understanding of safety on boats and has read a lot into the the history of naval submarines as my grandfather was a submariner in WII, this seemed like the likely case all along. I understand wanting to provide hope for family and friends, but being honest setting the expectations is also important.

I think someone pointed out on social media that while the coast guard would not look great for searching when they were likely lost, it’d look even worse if it turned out that the submersible was not truly lost until after the search was called off.

 

[AG_PhamD]

I think someone pointed out on social media that while the coast guard would not look great for searching when they were likely lost, it’d look even worse if it turned out that the submersible was not truly lost until after the search was called off.

I will respond to the other points later but I don’t disagree. The Coast Guard and other authorities should attempt S&R whenever there is a reasonable chance of finding survivors or even just to help locate the crash site to aid future recovery- for the same reasons we try to recover crashed aircraft. I don’t think attempting to find the sub is unreasonable, I just think it’s an important part of information that should have been made public sooner. Surely the implosion heard on the hydrophones were correlated with the area of the submarine, time communications were lost, etc.

I think it does raise a question about the size of the response too- sending multiple C-130’s, P-3’s, P-8’s, various naval and CG ships for a likely what would be unsuccessful rescue, etc meanwhile off of Greece hundreds of people die on a sinking ship. I can only imagine the price tag involved with the Titan S&R operation. I would like to point out the USCG takes on extreme risk rescuing mariners and it’s not like US and Canadian resources used would have otherwise been used in the Met (or the European subs offered to help) but the response between N. America and Europe in these too cases is beyond shameful, especially for Greece.

 

[GermanSuplex]

For the “whistleblower” or whatever - it’s not everyone’s job to police others, and people have their own lives to worry about. Yes, it appeared there were problems and this was unsafe, but it sounded like the participants signed lengthy waivers and were aware of the dangers. Not saying it’s ok that this vessel wasn’t as safe as it should have been, but I can understanding someone not wanting to a make a big scene after being fired or turning their life over to deep-sea exploration safety. I probably would have said “good luck”.

This reminds me a lot of that grizzly man guy - passionate, but maybe overzealous to the point of disregarding safety.

If the guy’s goal was to say “f’ it, I want to help improve sea exploration”, I’d say he succeeded. I just hope his passengers were fully clued in. There was a story of a guy on TMZ who chose not to be on the expedition, citing safety fears his son’s friend had shared. So clearly some people were aware of the dangers.

I dunno, I feel bad for the dead and I respect people who are fearless - but there’s a fine line between fearless and reckless.

 

[Nycturne]

II don’t think attempting to find the sub is unreasonable, I just think it’s an important part of information that should have been made public sooner. Surely the implosion heard on the hydrophones were correlated with the area of the submarine, time communications were lost, etc.

Folks who worked in sonar pointed out on social media that the ocean is noisy, and the fact that they recorded the implosion doesn’t mean they were able to confirm the implosion. Much like the “banging” noises that turned out to be impossible for the passengers to have made.

Yes, there were folks saying it was grim, but again this is why getting eyes on the thing is important, to confirm what is going on.

I think it does raise a question about the size of the response too- sending multiple C-130’s, P-3’s, P-8’s, various naval and CG ships for a likely what would be unsuccessful rescue, etc meanwhile off of Greece hundreds of people die on a sinking ship. I can only imagine the price tag involved with the Titan S&R operation. I would like to point out the USCG takes on extreme risk rescuing mariners and it’s not like US and Canadian resources used would have otherwise been used in the Met (or the European subs offered to help) but the response between N. America and Europe in these too cases is beyond shameful, especially for Greece.

I don’t disagree here, but I keep getting reminded of Heath Ledger’s Joker:

You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan". But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds.

Sad to say, but there’s a definite strain of thinking that refugees having problems making a sea crossing is “karma” for lack of better a better phrase.

 

[Herdfan]

Oh, there are multiple flaws in the design, I was just pointing out some of the issues of using carbon fiber for this application.

There is a reason CF tanks are frowned on for SCUBA. If the SCUBA community doesn't trust it for 120' in an expansion mode, no way would I trust it at 12,000' in compression mode.

6,000 psi is not that much when talking about tanks. I have had a nitrogen tank with 6000psi in the back of my SUV and felt completely safe. But it was not a DIY project either.

 

[GermanSuplex]

The ironic part about James Cameron’s name being brought in on this story so often is the fact he’s probably making a lot of money off of this situation thanks to his film. I’m sure his opinions are sincere, but… it’s also lucrative for him. Seems strange, man.

 

[Huntn]

As someone who pays some attention to bike engineering, I’ve seen things that would make me worried about using carbon fiber for a pressure vessel. Carbon fiber in bikes has two undesirable properties. First, it tends to hide stress fractures and is generally difficult to assay its condition. Second, when it does fail, it’s catastrophic. It shatters and explodes because of the stress the shaped composite material is always under. The general rule I’ve seen with composites and bikes is that if you do have the frame fail, you will eat dirt when it happens, and you won’t get any warning when it does.

Meanwhile, James Cameron seems to be highly critical during an interview today. While I was aware of his Deepsea Challenger work, and that he had visited the Titanic, I wasn’t aware he made over 30 dives to the Titanic.

It’s not just the carbon fiber too- it apparently was a carbon fiber tube with titanium end caps, so to speak. I’m not an engineer, but I know enough chemistry to understand different materials will expand and contract differently under different environmental conditions. That seems like a possible issue right there.

I maybe repeating myself.
Years ago in a discussion about airplanes, aluminum skin vs carbon, the idea is that carbon is lighter and stronger, but as @Nycturne mentioned when it’s limits are exceeded if fails spectacularly. This is why the tail fell off an Airbus in New York, and a friend whose son races on bike, talked about them blowing up, ie, shredding in crashes.

So when a small hole gets accidentally poked in the carbon fiber skin of a modern aircraft, it’s a huge pain to repair, a section must be replaced. Where as with aluminum, you could just rivet on a small patch. What I missed in aluminum skin airplanes is that they may have been heavier, but they were also comparatively over engineered, and could handle exceeding limits without falling apart.

 

[Herdfan]

Most carbon fiber tanks, and I also assume airplane skins, are thin aluminum to keep the air in and then wrapped in CF for strength.

 

[Huntn]

Most carbon fiber tanks, and I also assume airplane skins, are thin aluminum to keep the air in and then wrapped in CF for strength.

Modern airplanes (many/most/all?) are using carbon fiber for skins. Honestly I’m not sure how much aluminum there is if any In the skin.

Composite Vs Aluminum - Which Fuselage Is Best?

Comparing these two approaches to aircraft manufacturing.

simpleflying.com

When aluminum exceeds it’s limits, it bends first. when carbon fiber exceeds it’s limits it shreds, explodes or implodes. The thing is an airplane cabin exterior goes from 1 to zero (make that .2) while the inside stays at .8. The sub exterior in question went from 1 to 400 If it had stayed together. It’s not a forgiving environment to go cheap in.

 

[Yoused]

When aluminum exceeds it’s limits, it bends first. when carbon fiber exceeds it’s limits it shreds, explodes or implodes.

Steel and titanium alloys have a torture limit (I forget the exact term) below which they can take punishment forever without structural compromise. Aluminum does not have such a limit (every bit of pounding it takes is added to its death-kitty). Carbon fiber composite also does not have a torture limit, but what makes it worse is that strain issues in aluminum can be identified through examination whereas composites guard their wounds jealously and fail with little warning.

If the submersible had employed Ti rods between the end caps, composite might well have been a servicable hull, but relying on just the Ti-to-composite interface for the structure was clearly a huge risk. Carbon fiber is not really known for having great compression strength.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

This is new to me. Just when you thought this couldn’t be more absurd apparently some politicians on the right are saying this was manufactured to take attention away from Hunter Biden AND is the result of woke diversity hiring at the company.


If we ever impose capital punishment for things like making the retirement of thousands to millions disappear I think the execution method should be by haphazardly engineered personal sub. Along for the ride should be any legislator complicit in making the scheme possible. You’d think with the fact that many people put money above God we’d have a lot harsher punishment for screwing people out of it.

 

[Yoused]

This is new to me. Just when you thought this couldn’t be more absurd apparently some politicians on the right are saying this was manufactured to take attention away from Hunter Biden AND is the result of woke diversity hiring at the company.

Refer to this link:

Latest strategy: sue the people studying disinformation, because they are infringing on R freedom of speech. The legal actions are frivolous and should be dismissed out of hand by any reasonable judge, but the cases that are allowed encumber fact checkers with discovery demands and subpoenas, making it harder for them to do their work.

If we ever impose capital punishment for things like making the retirement of thousands to millions disappear I think the execution method should be by haphazardly engineered personal sub. Along for the ride should be any legislator complicit in making the scheme possible. You’d think with the fact that many people put money above God we’d have a lot harsher punishment for screwing people out of it.

Perhaps the best form of capital punishment is to simply take all the convicted individual's capital (with no consideration as to how other parties may be impacted) and force them to do actual work, in the truck fields, alongside Pedro and Consuela.

 

[Herdfan]

This is new to me. Just when you thought this couldn’t be more absurd apparently some politicians on the right are saying this was manufactured to take attention away from Hunter Biden AND is the result of woke diversity hiring at the company.

I thought there wasn't anything to the HB story?

Seriously though, the USN heard the implosion. They and some other in the industry knew they were gone. Yet the media hyped the "They have 96 hours of oxygen left", then 72 hours and then they run out Thursday morning. They had to know. All they did was give false hope to the families and keep the story alive.

The HB story will still be there growing more legs every day, no need to cover for it.

 

[MEJHarrison]

Seriously though, the USN heard the implosion. They and some other in the industry knew they were gone. Yet the media hyped the "They have 96 hours of oxygen left", then 72 hours and then they run out Thursday morning. They had to know. All they did was give false hope to the families and keep the story alive.

Sure, they heard a noise that sounded like an implosion at the right time. But there was also rumors of people hearing knocking sounds. I happen to think the decision to look for more evidence was the humane thing to do. If my loved one were missing, it would gut me if they called off the search early just because someone heard something that could have been the sub imploding. Now the families know for sure. As rough as it is, I'd rather have evidence of what happened then guesses based on a sound heard by the Navy.

 

[Citysnaps]

Sure, they heard a noise that sounded like an implosion at the right time. But there was also rumors of people hearing knocking sounds. I happen to think the decision to look for more evidence was the humane thing to do. If my loved one were missing, it would gut me if they called off the search early just because someone heard something that could have been the sub imploding. Now the families know for sure. As rough as it is, I'd rather have evidence of what happened then guesses based on a sound heard by the Navy.

I feel the same. It was a well-reasoned and proper decision by search crews to keep on looking as there could have been ambiguity/error in the analysis and interpretation of the noise.

 

[Huntn]

This is new to me. Just when you thought this couldn’t be more absurd apparently some politicians on the right are saying this was manufactured to take attention away from Hunter Biden AND is the result of woke diversity hiring at the company.


If we ever impose capital punishment for things like making the retirement of thousands to millions disappear I think the execution method should be by haphazardly engineered personal sub. Along for the ride should be any legislator complicit in making the scheme possible. You’d think with the fact that many people put money above God we’d have a lot harsher punishment for screwing people out of it.

This Right Wingers have to keep the agenda hate churning or they’d have no purpose in their lives, or would be out of a job.

 

[Yoused]

OT, but,

I thought there wasn't anything to the HB story?

The nothingburger is the Hunter Biden is a source of corruption issues for dad. No one disputes that Hunter himself has problems, but none of those problems reflect on dad's fitness for office.