Trans-People Participating In Sports

[Herdfan]

Fox News kept reporting the hell out of a trans swimmer over the weekend. Getting people pissed off is what they do best.

That being said, I have no idea what the right answer here is. I am not an expert when it comes to trans and hormones. But I know the way Fox News goes about it isn't the correct way.

Perhaps they aren't, but this is really the first time when a transgender (is this capitalized?) person has dominated the competition on a national level. Was it fair, not even close.

The NCAA as usual allowed this to become what it was. First, they said they are going to follow the guidelines from the national body, in this case USA Swimming, then they decided they weren't going to follow them. Had they followed those guidelines, Thomas would not have been allowed to swim.

 

[Alli]

I cannot wrap my head around DeSantis deciding he has more power than a national organization. Wrong or right, it was not his decision to make.

 

[NT1440]

Perhaps the answer is to take sports a little less seriously?

 

[lizkat]

Perhaps the answer is to take sports a little less seriously?

There's an idea.... and right during March Madness, and right before Opening Day.

[now dusting off the prototype 'Banned for High Treason' medal in case we need it. ]

 

[Arkitect]

Perhaps the answer is to take sports a little less seriously?

That ship sailed a while ago…

Far too much money involved.

 

[lizkat]

That ship sailed a while ago…

Far too much money involved.

Yeah now you can't even watch a ballgame without having ads shoved in your face to place a bet. Wow.

 

[Huntn]

How did I miss this thread? There were a lot of fireworks last summer lol

Fox News kept reporting the hell out of a trans swimmer over the weekend. Getting people pissed off is what they do best.

That being said, I have no idea what the right answer here is. I am not an expert when it comes to trans and hormones. But I know the way Fox News goes about it isn't the correct way.

Based on my past experience, this topic can be a mine field. I apologize in advance of my description if anyone is offended by how I describe it.

The issue in sports is the natural strength advantage people born as males have. That is a thing, correct? Now I have seen some very muscular women, but my impression is males typically possess a natural hormonal advantage in this realm.

My position is that if a former male maintains an undo physical advantage based on that status then there should be limits on their ability to compete against people who were born as women if it is a same sex competition.

However my impression is it is possible, through hormone therapy to bring the physical ability of a person born male, within the spectrum of people who were born female. And in no case should laws be enacted that make blanket assumptions and restrictions regarding when and where trans- people can compete based on that status.

 

[Herdfan]

However my impression is it is possible, through hormone therapy to bring the physical ability of a person born male, within the spectrum of people who were born female. And in no case should laws be enacted that make blanket assumptions and restrictions regarding when and where trans- people can compete based on that status.

The on thing that can't be undone is size. In the case of Thomas, hand and feet size and lung size/capacity, both pretty important in swimming, can't be undone with drugs or supplements.

 

[Huntn]

The on thing that can't be undone is size. In the case of Thomas, hand and feet size and lung size/capacity, both pretty important in swimming, can't be undone with drugs or supplements.

I can see this being a point of contention. I’d ask are there women of his size?

 

[Herdfan]

Probably not very many. Hard to tell height on a multi-tiered podium, but look at the size of the calf and arms.

All anyone wants to talk about is inclusivity, but no wants to talk about fairness. Especially to these girls. If you aren't a swimmer, or parent of a swimmer, you have no idea the dedication they put into getting to the level they are at. My daughter missed out on lots of activities & parties growing up because she was in the pool 5 days a week. When she got older, it was twice a day, 6 days a week.

 

[SuperMatt]

Adding this citation to a thread that's nearly a year old. Interesting that Republican governors in two states have just vetoed legislation that banned trans school kids from girls' sports. Utah, also Indiana.

Utah governor becomes latest to veto transgender sports ban

“I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion,” Cox wrote.

www.politico.com

Remarks by the Utah governor explaining his veto are quoted below, along with some stats of the actual situation, which should blow anyone's mind in terms of disproportionate response to nonexistent crisis in competitive schoolgirls' sports. Utah Rs actually brought a bill to ban the trans kids in the last hours of a legislative session, to deal with the reality of, are you ready: 4 trans kids out of 85,000 children qualified to compete in school sports, and only one of them is competing in girls' sports.

Four kids. Sure sounds like needs a law passed before things get out of hand, eh? WTAF.








... and the Republican trend has apparently been to pass these state-level bans. Despite these two exceptions in Utah and Indiana, 11 states nowhave bans in place and 12 more are considering them.

In response to that well-reasoned and heartfelt explanation from the governor, the Utah legislature responded with a collective middle finger. They voted to override the veto.

The cruelty is the point.

 

[SuperMatt]

A Republican politician in Mississippi called for transgender children and their parents to be killed by a firing squad. Twitter took down the statement, but there are screenshots.

Ex-GOP Gov Candidate Calls For ‘Firing Squad’ For Trans Rights Supporters

Robert Foster called for the execution of political foes who support the rights of transgender people by firing squad.

www.mississippifreepress.org

 

[Cmaier]

A Republican politician in Mississippi called for transgender children and their parents to be killed by a firing squad. Twitter took down the statement, but there are screenshots.

Ex-GOP Gov Candidate Calls For ‘Firing Squad’ For Trans Rights Supporters

Robert Foster called for the execution of political foes who support the rights of transgender people by firing squad.

www.mississippifreepress.org

What a fucktard

 

[Herdfan]

So does everyone really think it is fair for someone born a biological male to compete against biological females?

 

[lizkat]

So does everyone really think it is fair for someone born a biological male to compete against biological females?

The question might be more whether that's a frequent enough situation to warrant state lawmaking over it. Otherwise it pretty much falls into the same category as the sometimes not very random unfairness of life in general under a Constitution that says we're equal under US law.

I mean this: a short girl may try to compete in basketball but she's going to have to work her heart out to get anywhere. Same with a short guy on a boys' basketball team. Someone who's "big boned" and has the frame to go with it has a hell of a time trying to make it in ballet or the fashion industry.

Also it's becoming far more common now for trans kids to begin taking puberty blockers around age 11 and cross-sex hormones by age 16. Both of those reduce the extent to which the male's eventual edge in strength or speed comes into play in high school sports.

I agree the issue can be debated, but I'm more likely to think it should be left to individual schools than up to the state. For instance, some schools have elected to let trans women compete on boys' teams in some sports, rather than make rules that elimiinate them from all sport where gender may eventually lend an edge to men, although some parents have objected to that as discriminatory against trans kids. Still it shows me that reasonable people -- working from the premise that the federal Constitution prescribes equal opportunity-- can take a particular local situation and seek to find a compromise that isn't cruel to the kids, no matter their gender.

All this just my opinion. And i think it's both more and less complicated than the political and pretty vocal extremes of both left and right would have it. The solution might be to talk it over at an extension of the kitchen table, not up in the state legislature. Why not take it to the town council or school board: assemble a panel of medical experts, shrinks, clergy, parents... to air the feelings and facts. Not just try, as some of these state legislators or governors are doing, to pitch a talking point to a statewide arena of millions of people already too well primed to adopt a hyperpartisan view of every issue.

 

[Joe]

So does everyone really think it is fair for someone born a biological male to compete against biological females?

Most people don’t think it’s fair. And that includes both people on the left and right.

But how common is it? I follow high schools sports in Texas from football to soccer for both boys and girls sports. I have yet to come across a transgender athlete. I’m sure they’re out there somewhere. I just don’t think it’s that common or as big of an issue as conservatives make it out to be. Conservatives always need a boogie man. It’s like when they made an issue here over transgender bathrooms. Most people don’t give a shit. My mom is almost 70 years old and she says she remembers trans women using the same bathroom and no one cared until Republicans made it an issue. I’ve been at the urinal when women walk in our bathroom to use it because they don’t want to wait in line for the womens bathroom. No one cared then. Tx politicians should be focused on fixing our shitty power grid instead of some non issue like trans athletes that probably make up a tiny percentage of total athletes in TX.

The problem are the loud mouth extremes on both sides. The right making it seem like the entire team will be trans women. And the left extreme acting like it’s not an unfair advantage. Like I said, I’m not an expert in this nor do I really fucking care. Because I know it’s not very common. UT Austin isn’t gonna have an entire track team made of trans women beating everyone. But listen to Greg Abbott and Ted Cruz and they’ll make it seem that way.

 

[SuperMatt]

The problem are the loud mouth extremes on both sides.

Only one “side” is passing laws in state after state taking away freedoms from Americans. Before the “they are cheating at sports” attacks, it was “they are creeps only changing gender so they can go into the other sex’s bathroom and sneak a peek.”

I don’t know what changes (if any) need to be made at the highest levels of competitive sports. They already have some rules in place to try and keep things fair; maybe they need tweaking? Not sure.

But there is no reason to ban all transgender kids from school sports. It’s discrimination, pure and simple.

 

[Joe]

Only one “side” is passing laws in state after state taking away freedoms from Americans. Before the “they are cheating at sports” attacks, it was “they are creeps only changing gender so they can go into the other sex’s bathroom and sneak a peek.”

I don’t know what changes (if any) need to be made at the highest levels of competitive sports. They already have some rules in place to try and keep things fair; maybe they need tweaking? Not sure.

But there is no reason to ban all transgender kids from school sports. It’s discrimination, pure and simple.

True. Republicans are taking it to the extreme. There’s no reason to pass legislation. But they always need a boogie man. They always need to keep their base mad and scared about something.

 

[AG_PhamD]

I think this is an incredibly complex and sensitive topic. The variables alone of puberty blockers / age of initiation of hormone therapy make this far more complicated and difficult to have a consistent conversation. And to make things even more problematic, there is a difference talking about MtF and FtM transitions.

As someone who swims nearly every day and swam competitively in my youth, fairly successfully at that, I can say there is absolutely a difference in ability between male and female swimmers. That is why male and female divisions have existed for as And female swimmers actually have it more difficult in terms of developing their technique because of changes with body shape with age.

I respect people’s rights to express their gender identity and believe they, like anyone, should have the ability to compete. But there is also a aspect of fairness that seems to be ignored.

With the Lia Thomas situation I can understand the frustration female swimmers have devoting years of their lives to their sport to be at the top, only to be bumped down by a transgender woman who as a male was a mediocre swimmer. Beating the #2 swimmer by 30-something seconds in the 500 Freestyle is literally an eternity. Metaphorically that would be like soccer score of 1 to 10.

It’s east to say sports are overvalued in society- maybe, maybe not. Either way it undermines the years of devotion athletes put into their art, the fact particularly at higher level schools sports can play a significant role in being a competitive applicant (whether you’re going to play or not), and athletic scholarships do help students afford schools.

And by the argument of sports are overvalued and women should just accept the current situation isn’t any different than telling trans people they are overvaluing sports and should accept not being allowed to compete with their indemnified gender.

It’s not uncommon at the pre-college HS level to have co-Ed teams that compete directly, but then the rankings are separated by gender. Having a league for trans athletes could be an option, but there’s so few trans athletes and then you get into the argument is this ultimately excluding trans people from their identified gender.

I really have no idea what the right solution is here. There needs to be a balance of respecting everyone’s right to compete in a fair competition while also not doing so at one groups expense. Maybe that’s not possible. And just as how most MTF athletes have an advantage over biological females, many FTM athletes will likely have a much more difficult time competing with biological males. So it goes both ways.

 

[AG_PhamD]

Just to put things in perspective, at the 2016 Olympics the gold medal for the women’s 50 meter Freestyle went to Pernille Blume with a time of 24.07 seconds.

IIRC in High School (during the 00’s) my best 50 yard freestyle time was 23.88 seconds, which put me ranked as 18th in my division. The top swimmers my division were in the low 21.xx. There are high school aged male swimmers with sub-21 second times though- this was Connecticut though. HS swimming is much more competitive in other parts of the country and sub 20-second times do occur.

Now, keep in mind high school competition the pools are swam in short course 25 yard pools while the Olympics swam in 50 meter long course pools. So race is about 5 meters or 15ft longer in the Olympics and there is no turn required. There are formulas to convert times between meters and yards and short and long course pools. This of course is somewhat theoretical.

The formula says Blume’s time would be 20.9 seconds in a short course yard pool, meaning there’s a quite a number of high school aged boys whose times would make them gold medal winning Olympic swimmers.

Swimming is different than some other sports where brute strength or endurance alone is not enough to win. A female with decent technique could easily out swim the most jacked dude with no skill. Most people can’t swim 100 yards in a pool without struggling.