UFOs (now UAPs)

[Yoused]

2) What are the odds that a mass extinction doesn't "blast a crater in our racial memory" to borrow some prose from Avatar? I can't imagine that the survivors would simply dust themselves off and go "that was something right? Who wants to go roll coal in the last working pickup truck?"

I assume you meant massive human population collapse ("extinction" means complete loss of a species), which would probably transpire over a rather long interval, involve a lot of chaos and would result in significant changes in cultural attitudes. It is possible that the survivors would dust themselves off and return to the old status prior, but even today there is resistance to the way things are: after a cataclysm, it seems likely that the forces of such resistance would be stronger.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

One of the puzzles is that you don’t even need FTL to seed intelligent life across a galaxy if you can make self-replicating probes that seed civilizations rather than transport people. And you could do it on the order of millions of years to fill a galaxy. So if someone is out there more advanced, why haven’t they tried this yet?

Maybe it's not so easy to do. Maybe they don't see any point to seeding civilizations of robots. Or maybe they have done it but considering there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy, there is still a good chance not all solar systems have been reached yet.

 

[Nycturne]

Maybe it's not so easy to do. Maybe they don't see any point to seeding civilizations of robots. Or maybe they have done it but considering there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy, there is still a good chance not all solar systems have been reached yet.

These wouldn’t be civilizations of robots. But it’s much easier to colonize using Interstellar’s “Plan B” approach. Which can be done by robots. No Anne Hathaway needed.

The math suggests that because you could get a bit of an exponential growth going this way, it’d be millions of years for the whole galaxy to be seeded. And that’s the high end of the range.

I assume you meant massive human population collapse ("extinction" means complete loss of a species), which would probably transpire over a rather long interval, involve a lot of chaos and would result in significant changes in cultural attitudes. It is possible that the survivors would dust themselves off and return to the old status prior, but even today there is resistance to the way things are: after a cataclysm, it seems likely that the forces of such resistance would be stronger.

I mean a mass extinction event. The kind that an ecological collapse would be a part of (and further accelerated by). A mass extinction on Earth of the type being predicted wouldn’t automatically mean humans would be one of the species to go, but it would be hard. One thing in our favor is agriculture, but even that would have to shift a lot to adapt to a limited ecosystem, but it’s not impossible.

The stuff I’ve read is that once you reach a tipping point, things get much faster. Things would start happening on human timescales and I’d wager it makes things that much harder to deny. And those that continue would be more likely to be early victims.

 

[Huntn]

So who believes in UFO's or UAP's?

It is not that I think life can't exist other places in the universe (the basic building blocks for life are abundant), but the physics of space travel are what leads me to believe we will never visit them or them, us. We are hoping within the next 20 years to develop a propulsion system that will let us achieve 10% of the speed of light. That means we can make it to Earth's closest star in just a shade over 40 years. So until scientists can fix that pesky problem with E=MC^2, then we can not achieve the speed of light. And even if we could, that still means we are limited to a handful of star systems 15-20 light years to explore.

I’ll believe when I see.

But I have seen some video that is pretty remarkable with the caveat always being is this real or fake? When an object in the atmosphere is seen and recorded making what we consider to be impossible moves then there iis ample reason to investigate. And if you take “impossible moves” into consideration are we prepared to state there is no way to travel large distances quickly? It’s easy to say well, we can’t do that, and it’s going to take 40 years to get some place, but that is us, based on our current technology.

It’s much like how I debate spirituality and my place in this my reality, I just don’t know what is possible. And it’s not unusual to run into atheists who basically treat the only things as real are what can be proven with scientific observation. They observe mortal death and proclaim, game over. IMO this is a huge mistake. I’m not saying to believe, but to consider the possibility especially with all the recordings that have been made. And if they are all fake, we’ll then, but I don’t think they are. Some are real, and some unexplained, so there is something, but what?

 

[Huntn]

Well UFOs are back in the news again.

This David Grusch guy seems quite credible and in the position to hear about such things. But there seems to be no first hand evidence here which is quite problematic. He might think he’s telling the truth, but that doesn’t mean he is being told accurate information. It is odd however you would lead with “we have alien craft” and not his other revolution “we have alien bodies”. I suppose the former sounds less incredible than the latter.

Part of me thinks there is a cabal I’d rather scientifically unsophisticated people in our government and military who so desperately want to believe in UFOs, almost to a religious level, that they let confirmation bias get the best of them. And this has created hysteria- which the government appears to be not immune from (case and point “Havana syndrome”)

Another part of me thinks this is some psyop, but to what end I have no idea. Maybe Putin has some secret obsession with aliens.

I don’t doubt we are alone in the universe, but the distances and time scales required to travel seem quite difficult to traverse.

Part of me thinks there is a cabal I’d rather scientifically unsophisticated people in our government and military who so desperately want to believe in UFOs, almost to a religious level, that they let confirmation bias get the best of them.

I don’t see this as much as a desire to figure out a mystery. Any evidence of confirmation bias? As anyone said their are aliens flying around us?

 

[Nycturne]

It’s much like how I debate spirituality and my place in this my reality, I just don’t know what is possible. And it’s not unusual to run into atheists who basically treat the only things as real are what can be proven with scientific observation. They observe mortal death and proclaim, game over. IMO this is a huge mistake. I’m not saying to believe, but to consider the possibility especially with all the recordings that have been made. And if they are all fake, we’ll then, but I don’t think they are. Some are real, and some unexplained, so there is something, but what?

There are certainly atheists that are also materialists.

I call myself an atheist, but more consider the afterlife irrelevant to my moral compass here and now. I cannot in good conscience leave justice or empathy to the afterlife. Those in need should be lifted up. Those who do harm need justice. I can’t wait for Jesus or Yaweh or Buddha or Krampus to do it later, as I cannot demonstrate who is right.

But I also think that yeah, there is a lot in this crazy bizarre world we don’t know about. I don’t believe the universe has any inherent meaning, and if it does, we don’t know what it is. So I subscribe to Absurdism. Seek out my own meaning and value, and protect it.

One reason I lament the fact that it is extremely unlikely I’ll get to see the Earth from space, step foot on a surface that isn’t Earth, or be able to see or hear intelligent life that developed outside this solar system in my lifetime. We live in such an inexplicable universe, I want to see more.

With UAPs and aliens I subscribe to the “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof” idea. I’ve dreamt about meeting aliens, but it doesn’t mean I can’t be rational about the odds of it being aliens.

 

[Huntn]

There are certainly atheists that are also materialists.

I call myself an atheist, but more consider the afterlife irrelevant to my moral compass here and now. I cannot in good conscience leave justice or empathy to the afterlife. Those in need should be lifted up. Those who do harm need justice. I can’t wait for Jesus or Yaweh or Buddha or Krampus to do it later, as I cannot demonstrate who is right.

But I also think that yeah, there is a lot in this crazy bizarre world we don’t know about. I don’t believe the universe has any inherent meaning, and if it does, we don’t know what it is. So I subscribe to Absurdism. Seek out my own meaning and value, and protect it.

One reason I lament the fact that it is extremely unlikely I’ll get to see the Earth from space, step foot on a surface that isn’t Earth, or be able to see or hear intelligent life that developed outside this solar system in my lifetime. We live in such an inexplicable universe, I want to see more.

With UAPs and aliens I subscribe to the “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof” idea. I’ve dreamt about meeting aliens, but it doesn’t mean I can’t be rational about the odds of it being aliens.

I agree with you that the afterlife, if such a thing, is not something to dwell on other, than from a philosophical standpoint and not to dwell, but to consider which is mostly impossible on a coherent basis, nothing like science facts and theories, but simply because I hope for something more, and want there to be purpose to this existence, I consider the impossible but boy is it vague. And that is not belief. Anyone tries to sell me the man in the sky and rules, lots of rules, I resist.

 

[Nycturne]

I agree with you that the afterlife, if such a thing, is not something to dwell on other, than from a philosophical standpoint and not to dwell, but to consider which is mostly impossible on a coherent basis, nothing like science facts and theories, but simply because I hope for something more, and want there to be purpose to this existence, I consider the impossible but boy is it vague. And that is not belief. Anyone tries to sell me the man in the sky and rules, lots of rules, I resist.

If you’ve never seen Defending Your Life, I recommend it to those pondering the afterlife. It’s a romantic comedy (Albert Brooks and Meryl Streep), but it’s set in an afterlife where it turns out the whole goal of our time on Earth is to prepare us for bigger things. It’s an idea that has stuck with me since I saw it as a child. It’s also the only romantic comedy I’ve kept in my collection of movies as an adult.

 

[Huntn]

If you’ve never seen Defending Your Life, I recommend it to those pondering the afterlife. It’s a romantic comedy (Albert Brooks and Meryl Streep), but it’s set in an afterlife where it turns out the whole goal of our time on Earth is to prepare us for bigger things. It’s an idea that has stuck with me since I saw it as a child. It’s also the only romantic comedy I’ve kept in my collection of movies as an adult.

I’ve often referred to the Earth Simulator, a place to learn something, experience something, or just go on vacation, and/or a change of pace.

 

[AG_PhamD]

Part of me thinks there is a cabal I’d rather scientifically unsophisticated people in our government and military who so desperately want to believe in UFOs, almost to a religious level, that they let confirmation bias get the best of them.

I don’t see this as much as a desire to figure out a mystery. Any evidence of confirmation bias? As anyone said their are aliens flying around us?

I don’t doubt there are people who want to figure out the mystery, but I think there’s a lot of evidence of confirmation bias already. Take for example the green “triangle” UFO’s above the navy ship that turned out to be caused by DSLR lenses. The guy with the beard who makes the rounds talking about UFO’s who released the video in the first place- I saw still denying that conclusion. It’s not hard to imagine drones could be launched from a ship or submarine, or even lie dormant in the water far out at sea. That said, clearly those flying objects came from somewhere and figuring out where is something the government should be concerned with if they are stalking our military.

Or that one of the Nimitz that was analyzed, I believe recently by NASA, and is believed to be a bird. And there’s ideas about the other Nimitz videos being caused by a distant plane. So yes, I think there is a lot of confirmation bias. People can’t make sense of what they see and conclude they are of non-human origin. And that’s typical of human nature- to ascribe in a sense a supernatural power to things that cannot be understood- whether it be gods, aliens, ghosts, etc.

I do think the most compelling story is the four navy pilots who (as I understand) saw something with their own eyes and then allegedly the radar operators saw the same thing simultaneously. First hand accounts or radar data alone I don’t find very persuasive (humans are prone to optical illusions and such, while radar can have artifacts, but when you combine multiple sources together that’s when things get more interesting.

That said, if there were alien craft on earth I don’t think it’s that outrageous the government could keep it a secret. Because no one would believe a person who claims to be in the know and most would be written off as insane or a liar.

 

[Yoused]

Because no one would believe a person who claims to be in the know and most would be written off as insane or a liar.

Given some of the shit we have seen over the last couple decades, I think you might want to qualify that.

 

[Huntn]

I BELIEVE it’s possible.

Yesterday there were public hearings in Congress. i… forgot to watch
Why is this a blip? You need to have a space ship land on the Capitol Mall before anyone pays attention…

From this whistle blower, you know how distances are frequently mentioned as a reason why UFOs coukd not be real? There is consideration to the possibility these craft are inter-dimensional.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/4-shocking-moments-congress-ufo-162628296.htm

A Department of Defense whistleblower made a number of shocking claims about unexplained aerial phenomena — or UAPs, the updated government term for UFOs — during testimony in a congressional hearing on Wednesday.

Among his many claims made under oath, former U.S. intelligence official David Grusch told the House Oversight Committee that “non-human” beings had been retrieved from spacecraft.

My impression- Spaceship wrecks secured along with bodies, Roswell was real, not a weather balloon. People were threatened into being silent. You may have seen the many TV shows about this.

 

[Huntn]

So who believes in UFO's or UAP's?

It is not that I think life can't exist other places in the universe (the basic building blocks for life are abundant), but the physics of space travel are what leads me to believe we will never visit them or them, us. We are hoping within the next 20 years to develop a propulsion system that will let us achieve 10% of the speed of light. That means we can make it to Earth's closest star in just a shade over 40 years. So until scientists can fix that pesky problem with E=MC^2, then we can not achieve the speed of light. And even if we could, that still means we are limited to a handful of star systems 15-20 light years to explore.

The whistle blower says because of these distances they are now considering the possibility of inter-dimensional travel, which could include wormhole mechanisms.

 

[Edd]

I BELIEVE it’s possible.

Yesterday there were public hearings in Congress. i… forgot to watch
Why is this a blip? You need to have a space ship land on the Capitol Mall before anyone pays attention…

From this whistle blower, you know how distances are frequently mentioned as a reason why UFOs coukd not be real? There is consideration to the possibility these craft are inter-dimensional.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/4-shocking-moments-congress-ufo-162628296.htm

A Department of Defense whistleblower made a number of shocking claims about unexplained aerial phenomena — or UAPs, the updated government term for UFOs — during testimony in a congressional hearing on Wednesday.

Among his many claims made under oath, former U.S. intelligence official David Grusch told the House Oversight Committee that “non-human” beings had been retrieved from spacecraft.

This guy said a bunch, but provided zero proof. The maximum amount of skepticism is called for.

 

[Huntn]

This guy said a bunch, but provided zero proof. The maximum amount of skepticism is called for.

I don’t disagree, but consider he was in the middle of government efforts, a retired veteran with the security clearance to access. But, yes, he could still be lying or delusional…

 

[Yoused]

they are now considering the possibility of inter-dimensional travel

That is just nonsense blather. "Interdimensional" is not a meaningful word.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

Two things.

First, can we get just one clear photo or video with enough resolution to make it obvious that an object under consideration is not of human origin?

Second, the idea that beings would possess the advanced technology required to traverse interstellar space only to crash on our planet is hard to accept.

As Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[Huntn]

That is just nonsense blather. "Interdimensional" is not a meaningful word.

The concept of the multiverse is established although not proven, along with the idea of dimensions beyond the ones we are aware of and primarily exist within.

 

[Yoused]

The concept of the multiverse is established although not proven, along with the idea of dimensions beyond the ones we are aware of and primarily exist within.

The concept of a deity is also well established.

The thing about "dimensions" is that they are abstractions. Some theorists, trying to work towards a Grand Unified Theory, propose something like twelve or eighteen dimensions in order to make their math work. The dimensions are mathematical abstractions, just like up, left, forward and eventually. When people blather on about traveling through another dimension, or multiple dimensions, or Across the 8th Dimension, it is that: blather, with no real substance.

I read a piece in Sci-Am years ago about sphere packing, where they found that around 6 dimensions, gaps started opening up in the tightest three-dimensional method, and as they went up in dimension count, they had to readjust their methods. But, the dimensions were simply mathematical terms, which is the only thing they ever are, and the spheres were just expressions of uniform radii, which is what defines a sphere. (And there are practical applications related to these kinds of studies, such as signal coherence domains.)

So, whenever you hear someone making lofty assertions about multiple dimensions, check your credulity at the door. And multiverses, which are emergent properties of multi-dimensional math used to formulate theories. And, until there is a way to test a theory, it is basically still a hypothesis.

 

[Huntn]

The concept of a deity is also well established.

The thing about "dimensions" is that they are abstractions. Some theorists, trying to work towards a Grand Unified Theory, propose something like twelve or eighteen dimensions in order to make their math work. The dimensions are mathematical abstractions, just like up, left, forward and eventually. When people blather on about traveling through another dimension, or multiple dimensions, or Across the 8th Dimension, it is that: blather, with no real substance.

I read a piece in Sci-Am years ago about sphere packing, where they found that around 6 dimensions, gaps started opening up in the tightest three-dimensional method, and as they went up in dimension count, they had to readjust their methods. But, the dimensions were simply mathematical terms, which is the only thing they ever are, and the spheres were just expressions of uniform radii, which is what defines a sphere. (And there are practical applications related to these kinds of studies, such as signal coherence domains.)

So, whenever you hear someone making lofty assertions about multiple dimensions, check your credulity at the door. And multiverses, which are emergent properties of multi-dimensional math used to formulate theories. And, until there is a way to test a theory, it is basically still a hypothesis.

Oh, I agree. I’m participating over at the Mad About Politics forum and there is a a guy over there who when I said without doubt we know very little when it comes to all there is to know and he wanted to argue that statement, as in the human race has our existence mostly figured out <giggle>

Regarding religion and the multiverse…
The idea of the multiverse is’nt that based on theories where the amount of matter in this uninverse doesn't add up, so a parallel dimension is postulated as a possible explanation for where it goes or where it comes from? It’s a great imaginative idea. I love Man in the High Castle. Any more than 3 dimensions + time, the 4th dimension is something we don‘t experience those extra dimensions directly so they would be something out of sight or out of touch? And something existing in those dimensions might be invisible…

Good article:

How Many Dimensions Does Our Universe Really Have?

Beyond the dimensions we can perceive, are there extra dimensions, and what do they do?

interestingengineering.com

The Idea Of Meaning-
As far as religion, it is just the human desire for something more than this life. Speaking for myself, who labels myself Agnostic, I have either sensed something more, or I want something more. I have no clue what that more is, but to summarize, it is for this life to have meaning. And there can only be meaning with a continuation of consciousness or none of it matters to the individual. How could it ever matter without that element? How could you care?

If the totality of your existence is a measly human life span, than your life has zero meaning, period. And if there is zero meaning, than there is no point. We could probably quibble about what “meaning” is.

My position is, I don’t care how much you’ve enjoyed your life, in the infinite time line if you only achieve consciousness for a relative equivalent of a nano-second, your normal state is non-existence, you don’t exist as a matter of routine, so what if you experience a flash of awareness? Sure this is philosophical, but why even see the flash? Is that a celestial tease? It makes zero difference to you, your family, or anyone who has ever lived what happens in a uinverse where you don’t exist as a coherent entity.

Because I prefer to believe there is meaning in this existence, I believe, or better said I hope there is more, a continuation of consciousness, which can’t be mortal as we know mortal, so it would have to be another dimension or element of existence.