Alec Baldwin did what?

[bwinter88]

What's the standard of practice in the industry? When an actor is handed a gun by someone authorized to ensure it's in a safe condition and indicates that verbally, is the actor expected to verify the gun's status independently?

Incredibly, there is no standard of practice that is codified anywhere (that I know of). To become an armorer in California you apply for a permit but how to actually do the job is institutional knowledge passed down from master armorer to intern (or parent to child). It's a practice that has been honed to whatever makes everyone on set comfortable. I've only been on set once with an armorer but it involved the armorer, with the first AD, inspecting the gun and announcing to the set it's a cold gun, demonstrating the barrel is empty and holds no bullets, then handing it to the actor. The actor is usually nearby to witness this, but really, everyone within working distance of the set is supposed to see it.

I highly doubt Baldwin is being charged in his capacity as the man who fired the gun. This is likely to stem from his role as producer. But then it beggars belief why other producers closer to the hiring process weren't charged as well.

 

[Roller]

Incredibly, there are no hard and fast rules for this. You can't be trained to be an armorer or receive any kind of certification. So the standard of practice is a kind of tradition that has been set by expectations of what makes everybody comfortable. Usually, the armorer, with the first AD, inspects the gun and announces to the set it's a cold gun, usually demonstrating the barrel is empty and holds no bullets, then hands it to the actor. The actor is usually nearby to witness this, but really, everyone within working distance of the set is supposed to see it.

I highly doubt Baldwin is being charged in his capacity as the man who fired the gun. This is likely to stem from his role as producer. But then it beggars belief why other producers closer to the hiring process weren't charged as well.

Thanks for the explanation. But the prosecutor said "He (Baldwin) didn’t check it. He didn’t do any of the things that he was supposed to do to make sure that he was safe or that anyone around him was safe. And then he pointed the gun at Halyna Hutchins and he pulled the trigger." This means it was Baldwin's responsibility to check the gun himself, rather than relying on someone else's pronouncement that the gun was safe. Given this statement, I suspect this charge would have been brought even if Baldwin weren't a producer.

In some respects, this reminds me of the Twilight Zone accident in 1982, where actor Vic Morrow and two illegally-employed child actors were killed by a crashing helicopter on set. John Landis, the director, and George Folsey Jr., associate producer, were acquitted of manslaughter, despite being more directly responsible in their roles.

 

[bwinter88]

Thanks for the explanation. But the prosecutor said "He (Baldwin) didn’t check it. He didn’t do any of the things that he was supposed to do to make sure that he was safe or that anyone around him was safe. And then he pointed the gun at Halyna Hutchins and he pulled the trigger." This means it was Baldwin's responsibility to check the gun himself, rather than relying on someone else's pronouncement that the gun was safe. Given this statement, I suspect this charge would have been brought even if Baldwin weren't a producer.

In some respects, this reminds me of the Twilight Zone accident in 1982, where actor Vic Morrow and two illegally-employed child actors were killed by a crashing helicopter on set. John Landis, the director, and George Folsey Jr., associate producer, were acquitted of manslaughter, despite being more directly responsible in their roles.

Yea, seems that way. Okay, for sake of argument, imagine Baldwin's character had to pull a lever to hang someone on one of those noose/execution platforms. If that action actually killed someone, would he be held responsible for pulling the lever before inspecting the entire rig for safety? I'm genuinely curious what the prosecutor's rationale is here. That's someone else's job.

Second point. Imagine a movie needed a baby to hold a gun. The baby pulls the trigger, the gun kills someone. Will the baby be charged? Probably not. How about a toddler? Young adult? When does someone become responsible for handling a gun safety on set as an actor? This sounds like absurd prosecutor-babble. Maybe in NM they think everyone and their mother should be intimately familiar with guns, but that's not how it works in real life. You hire an armorer who is certified and licensed and has the permits, and their job is to make guns safe so you can hand them to a distracted actor who's hungover or working long hours or doesn't know guns that well. That's the entire reason they're there.

 

[Roller]

For sake of argument, imagine Baldwin's character had to pull a lever to hang someone on one of those noose/execution platforms. If that action actually killed someone, would he be held responsible for not inspecting the entire rig for safety? That's someone else's job.

Second point. Imagine a movie needed a baby to hold a gun. The baby pulls the trigger, the gun kills someone. Will the baby be charged? Probably not. How about a toddler? Young adult? When does someone become responsible for handling a gun safety on set as an actor? This sounds like absurd prosecutor-babble. Maybe in NM they think everyone and their mother should be intimately familiar with guns, but that's not how it works in real life. You hire an armorer who is certified and licensed and has the permits, and their job is to make guns safe so you can hand them to a distracted actor who's hungover or working long hours or doesn't know guns that well. That's the entire reason they're there.

Don't get me wrong - I agree with you. IMO, this is different than, say, a gun owner pointing a firearm at someone and unintentionally killing them. If any good comes of this, it will be to foster a greatly heightened sense of awareness about gun safety on sets, though memories tend to be short.

 

[bwinter88]

Don't get me wrong - I agree with you. IMO, this is different than, say, a gun owner pointing a firearm at someone and unintentionally killing them. If any good comes of this, it will be to foster a greatly heightened sense of awareness about gun safety on sets, though memories tend to be short.

Agreed—I know, just posing hypotheticals and genuinely curious if others think they hold up. It has shone a bright spotlight on a big unregulated part of the industry. Things have already started changing. This happened around the IATSE strike for better working conditions and definitely changed the tone of negotiations.

 

[bunnspecial]

I watched a video about this. He made the point that regardless of the situation, when someone hands you a unloaded gun, you treat it as a loaded gun until you verify yourself that it's unloaded. And if someone is standing there watching you do that and you hand them the gun, they should treat it like a loaded weapon until they verify for themselves that it is unloaded. Doesn't matter that you just watched someone else do it. You check for yourself. Every time.

I've been handed a gun that I just watched a friend clear in front of me and STILL double checked it. I do it habitually-in fact I've made the point before that I don't really even consciously THINK about the rules of gun safety anymore unless I'm actively teaching someone else-I just do them and follow them instinctively.

I mention the particular incident above, though, because despite watching my friend clear the gun, a live round popped as soon as I racked the slide(semi-auto). My friend had made a classic handling mistake of racking the slide and then dropping the magazine, which will pop the round currently in the chamber but then feed a fresh one. I generally rack 3 times as even if a live round pops out the first, the additional ones make sure no more are there(provided the magazine is not installed or is empty, although an empty magazine will generally lock the slide back in most handguns).

Since I was still following the other rules about pointing in a safe direction-in my particular case a hill behind my friends house-I still would have broken a window and done some other damage if I'd actually pulled the trigger without checking(and at no point in my handling did I have the gun pointed at someone even though there were people around).

That is how you clear a semi-auto but revolvers can be trivially easy to do. On a typical double action, you just swing the cylinder open(one catch and it will swing out of the frame) and look to see if you see empty holes or cartridge heads. A single action(what most "Cowboy guns" are) is a bit more involved as you open the loading gate and depending on the specific gun you might have to pull the hammer to half cock(two clicks-it will click 4 times total). Once the cylinder is "unlocked" though you click each position past the loading gate and look for a cartridge head while counting. Most single actions hold 6, so you just count to 6 while looking, although you need to be aware if it's a 7/8/9 shot. If you want to be extra careful, the entire cylinder can be removed and inspected in whole. There are a few other ways too-on most revolvers you can look between the the back of the cylinder and the frame and see cartridge heads if it's loaded(although this doesn't work on any .22 caliber rimfire revolvers and S&W Magnum caliber revolvers made before 1982 as the cartridge heads are recessed in the cyllinder). You can also hear the cartridges "rattle" as the gun is moved around.

 

[bunnspecial]

Yes. Botton to Top : Blank, Wad-Cutter, Hollow Point

View attachment 21413

Bottom is a 38 Special wadcutter. It's a real live round(meant to put clean holes in paper) and usually fairly low powered, I've shot quite literally thousands of them if the box tabs I've saved of the 250-count boxes of Hornady soft swaged hollow based wadcutters I have are any indication. I'm not volunterring to stand in front of one. Middle is a semi-wadcutter(SWC), which is considered more of a general purpose bullet both for target and other uses in revolvers-I shoot a lot of them too and cast them myself.

Generally the blanks I've seen have very long brass and are crimped to a cone at the end. The shape isn't entirely unlike a hollowpoint, but is obviously is all brass.

 

[bwinter88]

I've been handed a gun that I just watched a friend clear in front of me and STILL double checked it. I do it habitually-in fact I've made the point before that I don't really even consciously THINK about the rules of gun safety anymore unless I'm actively teaching someone else-I just do them and follow them instinctively.

I mention the particular incident above, though, because despite watching my friend clear the gun, a live round popped as soon as I racked the slide(semi-auto). My friend had made a classic handling mistake of racking the slide and then dropping the magazine, which will pop the round currently in the chamber but then feed a fresh one. I generally rack 3 times as even if a live round pops out the first, the additional ones make sure no more are there(provided the magazine is not installed or is empty, although an empty magazine will generally lock the slide back in most handguns).

Since I was still following the other rules about pointing in a safe direction-in my particular case a hill behind my friends house-I still would have broken a window and done some other damage if I'd actually pulled the trigger without checking(and at no point in my handling did I have the gun pointed at someone even though there were people around).

That is how you clear a semi-auto but revolvers can be trivially easy to do. On a typical double action, you just swing the cylinder open(one catch and it will swing out of the frame) and look to see if you see empty holes or cartridge heads. A single action(what most "Cowboy guns" are) is a bit more involved as you open the loading gate and depending on the specific gun you might have to pull the hammer to half cock(two clicks-it will click 4 times total). Once the cylinder is "unlocked" though you click each position past the loading gate and look for a cartridge head while counting. Most single actions hold 6, so you just count to 6 while looking, although you need to be aware if it's a 7/8/9 shot. If you want to be extra careful, the entire cylinder can be removed and inspected in whole. There are a few other ways too-on most revolvers you can look between the the back of the cylinder and the frame and see cartridge heads if it's loaded(although this doesn't work on any .22 caliber rimfire revolvers and S&W Magnum caliber revolvers made before 1982 as the cartridge heads are recessed in the cyllinder). You can also hear the cartridges "rattle" as the gun is moved around.

For modern guns the goal on set is often to clear the chamber, but for old-school revolvers on western sets like Rust there are almost always blanks or dead rounds of some kind in the gun because the cylinder has to look loaded. It adds to the incredulity at the prosecutor's statements, because the idea that an actor is supposed to sit there and inspect every round in a revolver that's just been handed to them by the armorer and AD to sniff out if they're real or not right before a take is especially ridiculous.

 

[ronntaylor]

For modern guns the goal on set is often to clear the chamber, but for old-school revolvers on western sets like Rust there are almost always blanks or dead rounds of some kind in the gun because the cylinder has to look loaded. It adds to the incredulity at the prosecutor's statements, because the idea that an actor is supposed to sit there and inspect every round in a revolver that's just been handed to them by the armorer and AD to sniff out if they're real or not right before a take is especially ridiculous.

That's why I think this is the SP/DA targeting Baldwin. The protocols established for the RUST set were followed by Baldwin. I saw a clip of him firing a shotgun towards the camera with the director and cinematographer (?) facing hone. (Not 100% sure that was from the RUST set though) The armorer, Gutierrez-Reed, and first Assistant Director, Halls both failed miserably. That's why the latter pled guilty and probably why the former should as well. From what I recall the prop person afterwards said she could only tell the difference between dummy and live rounds by shaking them. Baldwin wasn't required to personally check the gun or to check each bullet. That was the protocol established for the set and used throughout filming. I know COVID safety may have been part of the reason for just the two parties responsible for checking prop guns; but the 2/3 persons I talked to that have industry experience say that there is no set protocol for every movie set. Each individual set creates protocols for the filming and may make adjustments according to the specific needs and what happens on set. It appears that maybe the protocols should have been tweaked after the previous misfiring(s). The 1AD and probably the director, and IMO, the Line Producer that did the hiring and created a hostile work environment for various crews were lax after previous safety lapses, including the misfiring(s).

 

[Herdfan]

Well this was certainly not on my BINGO card for today:

Alec Baldwin's criminal charges for fatal 'Rust' shooting to be dropped: lawyers

Criminal charges against Alec Baldwin for the shooting death of "Rust" cinematographer Halyna Hutchins will be dismissed, his lawyers told Fox News Digital.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Eric]

Well this was certainly not on my BINGO card for today:

Alec Baldwin's criminal charges for fatal 'Rust' shooting to be dropped: lawyers

Criminal charges against Alec Baldwin for the shooting death of "Rust" cinematographer Halyna Hutchins will be dismissed, his lawyers told Fox News Digital.

www.foxnews.com

I think I'm even on record here calling this a while back, it looked too much like the DA had it out for him and the optics were terrible. I think Baldwin is a narcissist who couldn't keep his mouth shut but not a deliberate killer and they would've had a hard time convicting.

 

[Huntn]

Well this was certainly not on my BINGO card for today:

Alec Baldwin's criminal charges for fatal 'Rust' shooting to be dropped: lawyers

Criminal charges against Alec Baldwin for the shooting death of "Rust" cinematographer Halyna Hutchins will be dismissed, his lawyers told Fox News Digital.

www.foxnews.com

My impression is there is a legally binding structure of good (mandatory) practices in place on a movie set regarding the handling of weapons. Since we have seen this fail multiple times, you could add in the legal requirement to make all dummy rounds clearly discernible, if they are not already, and to require every actor who holds a gun, to check and verify it themselves before using it.

The interesting thing I am not clear about, in this case this was practicing a scene, was the intent that there be dummy rounds in the gun and it was supposed to fire during this practise? Or was it just practicin without gun fire?

 

[MEJHarrison]

...and to require every actor who holds a gun, to check and verify it themselves before using it.

I was telling someone yesterday that there should be a rule that the actor is required to check the gun and the safety person is required to watch the actor check the gun to make sure they've done the job properly. Maybe even have two people watching the actor checking the gun. I'd even have the same rule for dummy guns. Validate that it's a dummy gun before you start handling it and have someone watching you to make sure it happens.

 

[Roller]

I think I'm even on record here calling this a while back, it looked too much like the DA had it out for him and the optics were terrible. I think Baldwin is a narcissist who couldn't keep his mouth shut but not a deliberate killer and they would've had a hard time convicting.

Maybe Baldwin called the DA impersonating Trump and said it was a witch hunt.

 

[Edd]

Baldwin is famously a dude with a short temper. With all the shit he’s got going on (much younger hot wife with 28 kids or whatever, very busy Hollywood schedule in front and behind cameras, probably alimony/child support payments, god-knows how many properties to maintain), I can’t imagine the extra stress of manslaughter charges and massive legal bills have made him any more pleasant to be around.

 

[Roller]

Baldwin is famously a dude with a short temper. With all the shit he’s got going on (much younger hot wife with 28 kids or whatever, very busy Hollywood schedule in front and behind cameras, probably alimony/child support payments, god-knows how many properties to maintain), I can’t imagine the extra stress of manslaughter charges and massive legal bills have made him any more pleasant to be around.

So you're saying he has more in common with Trump than meets the eye.

 

[Herdfan]

Sure, why not?

Alec Baldwin has hired Rory Kennedy to film a documentary about Rust

Alec Baldwin is working with Rory Kennedy to film a reality documentary, DailyMail.com can reveal. Rory, 54, is the youngest child of RFK and his wife Ethel.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I have seen one of her documentaries: American Hollow. It was very well done.