Apple employees whine about having to return to work

[Eric]

So if they ask for better conditions, they're whining.

If they quit to find better conditions elsewhere, they're babies.


What exactly would you have them do?

Right now there's a lot of work out there and people have options, I know the company I work for (IT/Microsoft Consulting) just can't find qualified people and as a result it's impacting our bottom line. Apple has its name going for them, a lot of people want to work there, but there are a lot of fully remote positions also available to those with experience as well and that's the way the tech world is going.

If it can be done just the same from a home office as it can in the physical office then what's the point of making people travel for 2 to 4 hours each day? Just so they can keep an eye on them? You'll know whether or not an employee is working either way, hire the right people and it's not an issue. All studies have shown working from home is more productive in this area.

 

[User.45]

Until shit starts not getting done.

I'm somewhat on the fence about this in general because I don't believe everybody in tech needs to work in the bay area. If there was ever an industry that could explore the global space more it's tech....and I mean a lot more than they are already doing. So you have 2% of your total staff working in Atlanta. Yippy, Make it more like 10% and spread it around elsewhere too. We have the technology where there shouldn't be a center of any industry anymore. Go spread the wealth around. In fact you'll probably save money initially digging a dying town out of the dirt. You could probably pay a starting programmer there the same wage as an SF fast food employee.

You're making some good points but also missing a major one.

You brought up ATL as a "cheap place". I recently did a job interview and looked at Atlanta's housing. It may seem cheap(er) from the Bay Area's perspective, but it's not cheap at all. Part of that is techies pushing cost of living up wherever they go. So you raise your concerns with the issue of ridiculous housing prices but what you recommend actually just displaces it from the areas where it directly impacts you.

 

[Eric]

You're making some good points but also missing a major one.

You brought up ATL as a "cheap place". I recently did a job interview and looked at Atlanta's housing. It may seem cheap(er) from the Bay Area's perspective, but it's not cheap at all. Part of that is techies pushing cost of living up wherever they go. So you raise your concerns with the issue of ridiculous housing prices but what you recommend actually just displaces it from the areas where it directly impacts you.

I know that in the Bay Area many of the tech companies will reduce pay for remote users who leave the area, Facebook being one of them.

 

[Joe]

So if they ask for better conditions, they're whining.

If they quit to find better conditions elsewhere, they're babies.


What exactly would you have them do?

I know people that have lost their jobs and can't find anything, but these people are quitting because they have to work in the office 3x per week. Like SuperMatt said, 2 days a week home is pretty good.

Must be nice to be so entitled and privileged to quit your job at Apple because they want you to work in the office 3x/week. Oh, the horror.

 

[Deleted member 199]

If it can be done just the same from a home office as it can in the physical office then what's the point of making people travel for 2 to 4 hours each day? Just so they can keep an eye on them?

Exactly The claims of "but they'll goof off" or "how do we know they're productive" give this weird impression that people aren't already doing some kind of performance analysis of their staff, and just assume "well he's in the office every day before the boss so he must be working hard!"

If they want a job that is more than 40% telework, I guess they need to go elsewhere.

If Apple won't agree to what they want / compromise more (i.e. maybe they're happy with 2 days a week, and asking for more is just a bargaining tactic, I have no idea what each of them would 'settle' for) then yep, their best solution may be to leave. But my comment was directed at this:

I just read that some of them already quit. What a bunch of babies.

I don't understand what is expected by this person? They can't ask for better conditions without being called whiners. They can't leave to find better conditions elsewhere without being called babies. "If you don't like it, leave" is the favourite quote of people suggesting anyone who suggests a change to something is wrong. Apparently the only "valid" choice is to shut up and do what you're told, like a good 50's house wife?

2 days a week from home is pretty darn good.

If you're used to 5 days a week in the office, and still plan to live in the same area, maybe.

If you had plans to live somewhere else that is vastly cheaper, or closer to family or just nicer, it's not really that helpful.

I've been working 100% remotely (with.. 2 short on-site trips to California and 2 very short stints in a temporary Melbourne office during that time) for 15 years. Before that, I turned down (well technically I just ignored the offer, I didn't actually respond to reject it) an offer because their idea of flexible working hours was "you can take your lunch break any time you want, so long as you're in the office every damn day at 8.30am".

Apple does have a name for itself, and there are definitely people who will bend over backwards to be able to say "I work for a FAANG company" so if push comes to shove, I don't doubt that Apple will replace anyone who leaves over this. Hell, Facebook is basically a cartoon villain organisation at this point, and people are still falling over themselves to get a job there.

Remote working is a thing that exists, and works really well for some roles. That isn't even up for debate to me, it just is. If Apple choose to ignore that, they are going to lose out on some talented people, and the only real question is how many people will not apply/not accept an offer because of that, and how long until Apple realises that.

 

[Deleted member 199]

I know people that have lost their jobs and can't find anything

That's unfortunate, but kind of irrelevant.

these people are quitting because they have to work in the office 3x per week

So your suggestion is that they should instead not quit, not get the conditions they want, and just... shut up, live unhappily and be grateful they have a job?

 

[Joe]

That's unfortunate, but kind of irrelevant.


So your suggestion is that they should instead not quit, not get the conditions they want, and just... shut up, live unhappily and be grateful they have a job?

You're talking about their "working conditions" like they're working in a slave shop in China. It's Apple, they probably have it better than most people.

 

[JayMysteri0]

Right now there's a lot of work out there and people have options, I know the company I work for (IT/Microsoft Consulting) just can't find qualified people and as a result it's impacting our bottom line. Apple has its name going for them, a lot of people want to work there, but there are a lot of fully remote positions also available to those with experience as well and that's the way the tech world is going.

If it can be done just the same from a home office as it can in the physical office then what's the point of making people travel for 2 to 4 hours each day? Just so they can keep an eye on them? You'll know whether or not an employee is working either way, hire the right people and it's not an issue. All studies have shown working from home is more productive in this area.

Another thing that's going to come into play in a small fashion, is when the world does open up.

One of the things I was interested in for a very long time, and a reason for my original interest in iPad was those who lived the "digital nomad" lifestyle. Meaning workers who were already working remotely years ago, and realized they didn't need to take vacations. You could literally work during your year long vacation. If you don't have to commute, why not just live & work in the place you'd like to vacation in? Also, you have the option to move about.



Granted this was a very very very small slice of workers ( years ago there was a flood of digital nomad lifestyle videos ), but if you are getting paid US dollars but living abroad, that's a great lifestyle if you have the discipline. With possible options opening up & the realization that one HAS to be in an office is a fallacy for some, I can imagine more may opt for this lifestyle. Especially if you are working for a company that doesn't dictate where you live, you could live back 'home' in a state where the cost of living is much lower than where your business is located.

I know for me & my friends, when convention season started you'd travel around during the summer, but it didn't necessarily mean it impacted your workflow if you didn't want it to. I've gone to Chicago, done work, walked to a copy place & Fed Ex work back to Philly, before enjoying the weekend. What SOME will not like is that workers MAY have more options now, which is not a preferable shift for SOME.

 

[JayMysteri0]

You're talking about their "working conditions" like they're working in a slave shop in China. It's Apple, they probably have it better than most people.

As pointed out though, they work for Apple. Like working at Google or Facebook I imagine, the name of your workplace brings a little cache, and more importantly perceived privilege.

I.E. "If you can work there, you can work anywhere", to paraphrase a certain song.

IF you have options to make things better for yourself, you'd be a fool not to look into them. The company certainly wouldn't hesitate into looking at options, if it meant cheaper workers & boot their current staff. Your responsibility is to you first, company third, or you may well be taken advantage of.

 

[User.45]

Another thing that's going to come into play in a small fashion, is when the world does open up.

One of the things I was interested in for a very long time, and a reason for my original interest in iPad was those who lived the "digital nomad" lifestyle. Meaning workers who were already working remotely years ago, and realized they didn't need to take vacations. You could literally work during your year long vacation. If you don't have to commute, why not just live & work in the place you'd like to vacation in? Also, you have the option to move about.



Granted this was a very very very small slice of workers ( years ago there was a flood of digital nomad lifestyle videos ), but if you are getting paid US dollars but living abroad, that's a great lifestyle if you have the discipline. With possible options opening up & the realization that one HAS to be in an office is a fallacy for some, I can imagine more may opt for this lifestyle. Especially if you are working for a company that doesn't dictate where you live, you could live back 'home' in a state where the cost of living is much lower than where your business is located.

I know for me & my friends, when convention season started you'd travel around during the summer, but it didn't necessarily mean it impacted your workflow if you didn't want it to. I've gone to Chicago, done work, walked to a copy place & Fed Ex work back to Philly, before enjoying the weekend. What SOME will not like is that workers MAY have more options now, which is not a preferable shift for SOME.

That's a very optimistic view of this. I'd say the reality is the ultimate barriers of outsourcing work will be removed by this, LOL. $$$$$$$$

So this will benefit absolute cream-of-the-crop, elite experts, but it's probably gonna screw most people.

 

[Deleted member 199]

You're talking about their "working conditions" like they're working in a slave shop in China. It's Apple, they probably have it better than most people.

No, I'm talking about their working conditions that they have and apparently aren't happy with.

By your logic, practically no one anywhere in the world has any reason to complain about anything, because you can guarantee that someone somewhere else, has it worse.

Have you ever heard the phrase "Work to Live, not Live to Work" ?

 

[JayMysteri0]

That's a very optimistic view of this. I'd say the reality is the ultimate barriers of outsourcing work will be removed by this, LOL. $$$$$$$$

But it's a view that existed almost a half decade ago.

The pandemic has brought a shift to workplace that many work places will NOT be comfortable with. It also may empower workers.

Remember, a lot of these 'digital nomads' weren't making executive salaries. They were often marketing & such, but thanks to the US dollar, but living overseas that mid level salary was exec salary. The companies didn't pay for the workers resources. If you're a nomad you had to find that cafe or workspaces ( like what I did in the past before they had to shut down ) that provided good internet and supplies out of your own check. But it was worth it, because you're commute may have involved walking in shorts & flip flops to a workspace 10 minutes away or biking. Those workers aren't costing more than office bound ones, they just weren't physically there. Some even intentionally took less to get the consistent paycheck, while they did side hustles like Youtube.

It's optimistic, but it's an option that will exist for some. As I said though, it's a very very small percentage before everything shutdown.

 

[Deleted member 199]

those who lived the "digital nomad" lifestyle. Meaning workers who were already working remotely years ago, and realized they didn't need to take vacations. You could literally work during your year long vacation. If you don't have to commute, why not just live & work in the place you'd like to vacation in? Also, you have the option to move about.

This is an interesting side effect of remote working, but it also adds a lot of challenges that plenty of people aren't up for. It's a lot harder and a lot riskier than just "I want to work from somewhere I'm comfortable"

 

[Joe]

As pointed out though, they work for Apple. Like working at Google or Facebook I imagine, the name of your workplace brings a little cache, and more importantly perceived privilege.

I.E. "If you can work there, you can work anywhere", to paraphrase a certain song.

IF you have options to make things better for yourself, you'd be a fool not to look into them. The company certainly wouldn't hesitate into looking at options, if it meant cheaper workers & boot their current staff. Your responsibility is to you first, company third, or you may well be taken advantage of.

Yeah, I get it. If they can work there they can work anywhere. It does have its perks working for a place like Apple. I guess I just don't see it as a big deal to go into work 3x per week. Most people I've talked to work for companies that are going that route, 3x in the office 2x at home. So, Covid did have one positive, because I know before Covid my company didn't allow work from home. Now we have that option. It is 2x per week like Apple is going to do.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Our IT and SAP guys all work remotely all the time but that’s because they cover IT for the whole group. They are also the types of people you wouldn’t want to share an office with anyway [emoji23].

This all depends on the job really and if you work 100% on a computer and don’t need to work face to face with people, working remotely is ideal. It also boils down to pricing you manage your workload in a productive sort of way. The pandemic forced a majority of office staff to work from home and it provided some great entertainment watching those who thought they were getting away with just moving their mouse on Teams to maintain that available status. We lost a few people who revealed to not be doing a lot when the work was more evidently vacant once they were working remotely.

I love that I can go into the office for 3 days a week and work remotely usually on Wednesdays and Fridays. I avoid the roadworks and none of my more important meetings are on those days. I think those Apple employees who quit have probably done so for the best, both for them and for Apple. If you’ve got employees trying to hold you to ransom over a very generous arrangement, then quitting saves you a lot of hassle and cost further down the line

 

[JayMysteri0]

Yeah, I get it. If they can work there they can work anywhere. It does have its perks working for a place like Apple. I guess I just don't see it as a big deal to go into work 3x per week. Most people I've talked to work for companies that are going that route, 3x in the office 2x at home. So, Covid did have one positive, because I know before Covid my company didn't allow work from home. Now we have that option. It is 2x per week like Apple is going to do.

Ultimately that is all that matters.

That more flexibility is available to the workers,

As long as it isn't abused & work gets done, this trope of office drones may finally die for SOME.

 

[Joe]

No, I'm talking about their working conditions that they have and apparently aren't happy with.

By your logic, practically no one anywhere in the world has any reason to complain about anything, because you can guarantee that someone somewhere else, has it worse.

Have you ever heard the phrase "Work to Live, not Live to Work" ?

Yes, I get it. I have heard of that phrase. And trust me, I work to live. I don't live to work. My boss on the other hand is going to give herself a heart attack because she "lives to work" We get emails from her at all hours of the night. One time she was running on very little sleep that she crashed her car into her neighbors mailbox because she fell asleep at the wheel. But that's another story lol

Honestly, I don't care either way. I have a job that pays me very well with the option to work from home 2x week. People are going to do what they think is best for them.

 

[User.45]

Yes, I get it. I have heard of that phrase. And trust me, I work to live. I don't live to work. My boss on the other hand is going to give herself a heart attack because she "lives to work" We get emails from her at all hours of the night. One time she was running on very little sleep that she crashed her car into her neighbors mailbox because she fell asleep at the wheel. But that's another story lol

Honestly, I don't care either way. I have a job that pays me very well with the option to work from home 2x week. People are going to do what they think is best for them.

It's an American thing. In the EU, docs are capped at 60-65H a week. They might make much less than their US counterparts, but they still have much better lifestyles. I'd also say there aren't a lot of jobs worth losing sleep over.

 

[Eric]

Yes, I get it. I have heard of that phrase. And trust me, I work to live. I don't live to work. My boss on the other hand is going to give herself a heart attack because she "lives to work" We get emails from her at all hours of the night. One time she was running on very little sleep that she crashed her car into her neighbors mailbox because she fell asleep at the wheel. But that's another story lol

Honestly, I don't care either way. I have a job that pays me very well with the option to work from home 2x week. People are going to do what they think is best for them.

Couldn't agree more, no job is worth your health like that and some jobs require everything you have, unfortunately mine is also one of them. A friend once said nobody on their deathbed ever says "I wish I would've spent more time working" and that's always stuck with me. In another year I get to retire and I cannot wait.

 

[Joe]

Couldn't agree more, no job is worth your health like that and some jobs require everything you have, unfortunately mine is also one of them. A friend once said "nobody on their deathbed ever says "I wish I would've spent more time working" and that's always stuck with me. In another year I get to retire and I cannot wait.

Yes, I am a CPA. I had a previous job where I was working late hours and weekends. I was burned out and over it. I realized that I didn't want to spend my life working and not enjoying life. So I found another job. I am pretty much 9-5 M-F now with the occasional late night depending on what is going on. I work maybe one weekend a year now.