China says it WILL shoot Pelosi's plane down IF she travels to Taiwan under US fighter escort

NT1440 said:
Other than it being covered all of a sudden in the news the last two months, can anyone cite anything China has done recently that indicates any change in posture?
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No, but even if they are just being reactionary to whatever the latest US shit stirring is, why can't they just let Taiwan be?

On some level it feels like that old classic muscle car collecting dust in grandpa's garage that only gets mentioned when somebody points it out and then it's all "Don't touch that! It's a classic! No, it's not for sale! I was just about to replace the battery!"
 
Chew Toy McCoy said:
No, but even if they are just being reactionary to whatever the latest US shit stirring is, why can't they just let Taiwan be?

On some level it feels like that old classic muscle car collecting dust in grandpa's garage that only gets mentioned when somebody points it out and then it's all "Don't touch that! It's a classic! No, it's not for sale! I was just about to replace the battery!"
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Because there are agreements in place. The State Department literally just restated yesterday that the official stance of the US is Taiwan is part of China.

So it’s shot stirring, plane and simple. There was no reason this had to be done *now*.
 
NT1440 said:
Because there are agreements in place. The State Department literally just restated yesterday that the official stance of the US is Taiwan is part of China.

So it’s shot stirring, plane and simple. There was no reason this had to be done *now*.
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I have no proof of this, but... Based on Biden’s statement of support for Taiwan recently, which he doubled down on instead of walking away from: I think there is a strategy to push back a bit on Chinese leadership. I don’t know if it’s to “test the waters” or if there’s some initiative to increase our presence in the region, but I don’t think it’s random that Pelosi took this trip shortly after Biden’s statements about Taiwan.
 
SuperMatt said:
I have no proof of this, but... Based on Biden’s statement of support for Taiwan recently, which he doubled down on instead of walking away from: I think there is a strategy to push back a bit on Chinese leadership. I don’t know if it’s to “test the waters” or if there’s some initiative to increase our presence in the region, but I don’t think it’s random that Pelosi took this trip shortly after Biden’s statements about Taiwan.
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I agree, because America is going to try to prevent China from being an equal player on the world stage. It will come to force in the next few years because we refuse to allow a multipolar world to exist again.

I do have to ask though…what exactly is America “pushing back” against? There have been no noteworthy moves or developments from China in months.
 
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NT1440 said:
Because there are agreements in place. The State Department literally just restated yesterday that the official stance of the US is Taiwan is part of China.

So it’s shot stirring, plane and simple. There was no reason this had to be done *now*.
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You cite an agreement, what agreement?

You cite the State Department, but the most I can see about that and Taiwan is Blinken's statement related to the NPT talks going on, and Blinken commenting that it's Pelosi's choice to visit Taiwan when asked about it. The State Department continues to state that they support the "status quo" which is this sort of Schrodinger's Cat situation of Taiwan simultaneously being China and not.

If you are insistent on pounding the table on this fact, I'm going to be insistent that you provide some receipts.
 
on the other hand, there's no reason for China to do anything other than shrug when an American politician goes to Taiwan. There's no change in policy attached to this visit....so perhaps China is going to use this visit as a convenient excuse for increasing military support for Russia's invasion of Ukraine
 
Nycturne said:
You cite an agreement, what agreement?

You cite the State Department, but the most I can see about that and Taiwan is Blinken's statement related to the NPT talks going on, and Blinken commenting that it's Pelosi's choice to visit Taiwan when asked about it. The State Department continues to state that they support the "status quo" which is this sort of Schrodinger's Cat situation of Taiwan simultaneously being China and not.

If you are insistent on pounding the table on this fact, I'm going to be insistent that you provide some receipts.
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Ned Price at the State Department July 18th- “We believe that our “one China” policy provides an appropriate framework to continue to engage our PRC counterparts. One of the primary objectives of the meeting with State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi was to continue and to in some ways even deepen the avenues of dialogue, because we know that the relationship between the United States and between the PRC is the most consequential bilateral relationship on the face of the Earth. We know that it is a relationship that is predicated on competition, and we want to see to it that that competition is not able to veer into conflict.

And so that is why we continue to believe that engagement with our PRC counterparts is in our interest, but it’s also in the broader interest of countries around the world. We came away from the meeting with Wang Yi with a better understanding of the perspective of our counterparts. I think we saw from their readout that they appreciated the dialogue as well. We will continue that dialogue to do all that we can to see to it that those avenues for conversation, that those avenues for diplomacy remain readily accessible.

QUESTION: But actions speak louder than words. On Taiwan, how do you explain these arms sales to Taiwan is going to affect the relationship right after the meeting?

MR PRICE: Well, we have always said that we have obligations under the Taiwan Relations Act, and under the Taiwan Relations Act we make available to Taiwan defense articles and services necessary to enable Taiwan to maintain a sufficient self-defense capability. This is something that successive administrations has – have done. It in – it is entirely consistent with our “one China” policy.

That’s the State Department, right from the source.

I’ll provide more but I have a meeting starting.
 
Chew Toy McCoy said:
Can somebody explain why China is so hellbent on absorbing Taiwan? What does Taiwan provide China that China is incapable of doing without them?
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it's an old imperial conquest that was ceded to Japan in the 1890s.....and now China's communist party, supposedly an anti-imperialist organization, wants all the old imperial territories back
 
NT1440 said:
Ned Price at the State Department July 18th- “We believe that our “one China” policy provides an appropriate framework to continue to engage our PRC counterparts. One of the primary objectives of the meeting with State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi was to continue and to in some ways even deepen the avenues of dialogue, because we know that the relationship between the United States and between the PRC is the most consequential bilateral relationship on the face of the Earth. We know that it is a relationship that is predicated on competition, and we want to see to it that that competition is not able to veer into conflict.

And so that is why we continue to believe that engagement with our PRC counterparts is in our interest, but it’s also in the broader interest of countries around the world. We came away from the meeting with Wang Yi with a better understanding of the perspective of our counterparts. I think we saw from their readout that they appreciated the dialogue as well. We will continue that dialogue to do all that we can to see to it that those avenues for conversation, that those avenues for diplomacy remain readily accessible.

QUESTION: But actions speak louder than words. On Taiwan, how do you explain these arms sales to Taiwan is going to affect the relationship right after the meeting?

MR PRICE: Well, we have always said that we have obligations under the Taiwan Relations Act, and under the Taiwan Relations Act we make available to Taiwan defense articles and services necessary to enable Taiwan to maintain a sufficient self-defense capability. This is something that successive administrations has – have done. It in – it is entirely consistent with our “one China” policy.

That’s the State Department, right from the source.

I’ll provide more but I have a meeting starting.
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Nothing there jumps out to me as corroborating your claims, nor does it contradict what I know about the current US policy regarding PRC and Taiwan.

July 18th isn't yesterday... but we've already corrected you on what that policy actually is (and that it isn't an agreement). So I'm not really sure that there's constructive dialog that can be had on this point.

Macky-Mac said:
it's an old imperial conquest that was ceded to Japan in the 1890s.....and now China's communist party, supposedly an anti-imperialist organization, wants all the old imperial territories back
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To be fair, Japan ceded it after WWII. The current situation came about because of the PRC/ROC power struggle that the PRC ultimately won, and the remnants of the ROC settling in Taiwan.
 
Chew Toy McCoy said:
Can somebody explain why China is so hellbent on absorbing Taiwan? What does Taiwan provide China that China is incapable of doing without them?

Probably is, but I hope it's not just some Isreal/Palestine "complicated history" level horse shit.
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Because Pooh/Xi is hellbent on leaving his mark. To do that, he has to ramp up the rhetoric and assure his "reelection" to the top spot for an unprecedented third term as the Top Commie. Mango had his HHS Secy travel to Taiwan and there was nothing quite like this current whine-fest. Of course, in the past five or so years China/Pooh has amped up hostilities with all of its neighboring/regional countries: Taiwan, Vietnam, The Philippines, Cambodia, Japan, India, Laos, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia (these last two are part of the Congressional delegation that will sandwich the Taiwanese visit), and even Canada and Australia.
 
Macky-Mac said:
it's an old imperial conquest that was ceded to Japan in the 1890s.....and now China's communist party, supposedly an anti-imperialist organization, wants all the old imperial territories back
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And what moves have been made recently that have changed?
 
Nycturne said:
To be fair, Japan ceded it after WWII. The current situation came about because of the PRC/ROC power struggle that the PRC ultimately won, and the remnants of the ROC settling in Taiwan.
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yes indeed, having lost the war, Japan lost various territories and Taiwan was ceded to the ROC. The PRC's claim to Taiwan is based on the borders of imperial China. What the native Taiwanese (as opposed to the Chinese who came there with the ROC retreat) think about being part of China is a mixed bag
 
Nycturne said:
Nothing there jumps out to me as corroborating your claims, nor does it contradict what I know about the current US policy regarding PRC and Taiwan.
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There's confusion based on "One China" wording. For the U.S., it's about our "One China" policy that accepts Taiwan's self-governing reality without stating that it is independent. China insists on it's "One China" principle that sees Taiwan as a renegade province that will be reunited. Overlooking that you can't reunite something that was never united in the first place. The CCP won the war on the so-called mainland and never took control of Taiwan when CK-S and his forces fled and established Taiwan, Republic of China. The CCP never controlled Taiwan. Nationalist China didn't controlled Taiwan till their forces fled to the island. The resultant entity has maintained control ever since.
 
Macky-Mac said:
it's an old imperial conquest that was ceded to Japan in the 1890s.....and now China's communist party, supposedly an anti-imperialist organization, wants all the old imperial territories back
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So basically it's ruling class bullshit that people need to die over.
 
NT1440 said:
And what moves have been made recently that have changed?
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as I said a few posts back......basically nothing has changed,

You yourself said US policy hasn't changed, and certainly China hasn't changed its policy.

Keep in mind that Pelosi's district has a very large Chinese population, which might suggest that her personal view of support for Taiwan has a lot to do with her local political situation......China could simply have ignored her visit, but has chosen to create a bit of political theater to suit their own needs.
 
ronntaylor said:
Because Pooh/Xi is hellbent on leaving his mark. To do that, he has to ramp up the rhetoric and assure his "reelection" to the top spot for an unprecedented third term as the Top Commie. Mango had his HHS Secy travel to Taiwan and there was nothing quite like this current whine-fest. Of course, in the past five or so years China/Pooh has amped up hostilities with all of its neighboring/regional countries: Taiwan, Vietnam, The Philippines, Cambodia, Japan, India, Laos, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia (these last two are part of the Congressional delegation that will sandwich the Taiwanese visit), and even Canada and Australia.
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It seems there is a leadership personality type who won't consider their legacy complete if it doesn't include a major land grab or turning it into a crater-filled litterbox in the attempt.
 
Macky-Mac said:
as I said a few posts back......basically nothing has changed,

You yourself said US policy hasn't changed, and certainly China hasn't changed its policy.

Keep in mind that Pelosi's district has a very large Chinese population, which might suggest that her personal view of support for Taiwan has a lot to do with her local political situation......China could simply have ignored her visit, but has chosen to create a bit of political theater to suit their own needs.
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So we’ve agreed nothing has changed. So the point in stirring up further animosity was…what?

Why is the onus on China to ignore and not the US to not provoke?
 
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