COVID Stupid

[JayMysteri0]

 

[User.45]

In the last month two people I personally knew have died from COVID, I know we like to point call them out but it's just sad and so unnecessary at this point.

My SIL lost two family members in the past month as well. I did not know them, but it’s hurting her family

Yup, COVID still sucks

 

[Eric]

My SIL lost two family members in the past month as well. I did not know them, but it’s hurting her family

Sorry to hear that, this delta variant really changed things and IMO we loosened restrictions way too fast. What's done is done but hopefully we can all learn from it.

 

[User.45]

May have been posted elsewhere, but here's COVID Smart:

In Portugal, There Is Virtually No One Left to Vaccinate (Published 2021)

Portugal is among the most highly vaccinated countries in the world. Vice Adm. Henrique Gouveia e Melo, who led the campaign, said there was a key to his success: Keep politics out of it.

www.nytimes.com

Portugal’s health care system was on the verge of collapse. Hospitals in the capital, Lisbon, were overflowing and the authorities were asking people to treat themselves at home. In the last week of January, nearly 2,000 people died as the virus spread.

The country’s vaccine program was in a shambles, so the government turned to Vice Adm. Henrique Gouveia e Melo, a former submarine squadron commander, to right the ship.

Eight months later, Portugal is among the world’s leaders in vaccinations, with roughly 86 percent of its population of 10.3 million fully vaccinated. About 98 percent of all of those eligible for vaccines — meaning anyone over 12 — have been fully vaccinated, Admiral Gouveia e Melo said.

But for the moment, as bars and nightclubs buzz with life, infections dwindle and deaths plummet, the country’s vaccination drive has succeeded even after encountering many of the same hurdles that caused others to flounder.

The same flood of misinformation about vaccines has filled the social media accounts of the Portuguese. The country is run by a minority left-wing government, a reflection of its political divisions. And, according to public opinion polls, there was widespread doubt about the vaccines when they first arrived.

Admiral Gouveia e Melo has been credited with turning it around. With a background working on complicated logistical challenges in the military, he was named in February to lead the national vaccination task force.

Standing 6 feet 3 inches, the admiral made it a point to wear only his combat uniform in his many public and television appearances as he sought to essentially draft the nation into one collective pandemic-fighting force.

He quickly assembled a team of some three dozen people, led by elite military personnel — including mathematicians, doctors, analysts and strategic experts from Portugal’s Army, Air Force and Navy.

Asked what other countries can do to bolster their own vaccination efforts, he did not hesitate to offer his best advice.

“They need to find people who are not politicians,” he said.

Before the pandemic, Portugal was fortunate to have a robust national vaccination program. It grew out of the country’s devastating experience battling polio, which was still affecting the country after Admiral Gouveia e Melo was born in 1960. He recalls when the daughter of a family friend fell ill from the disease and the suffering that followed.

Manuela Ivone da Cunha, a Portuguese anthropologist who has studied anti-vaccination movements, said that “vaccine doubters and anti-vaxxers are in the minority in Portugal, and they are also less vocal” than they are in many other countries.

Protesters were blocking the entrance to a vaccination center in Lisbon, so he donned his combat uniform and went there with no security detail.

“I went through these crazy people,” he said. “They started to call me ‘murderer, murderer.’”

As the television cameras rolled, the admiral calmly stood his ground.

“I said the murderer is the virus,” Admiral Gouveia e Melo recalled. The true killer, he said, would be people who live like it is the 13th century without any notion of reality.

“I attempted to communicate in a very true and honest way about all doubts and problems,” he said.

“In the beginning, we had some 40 percent who were unsure,” Admiral Gouveia e Melo said. Now, according to polls, he said, only 2.2 percent do not want the vaccine.

As he stepped down from the task force this week, the admiral said he felt the country was on a good course. But, ever the submariner, he cautioned that vigilance would remain essential to ensuring that this war was won.

And something a little softer but still packaged in american flags with eagles could have totally flown in the USA.

 

[SuperMatt]

May have been posted elsewhere, but here's COVID Smart:

In Portugal, There Is Virtually No One Left to Vaccinate (Published 2021)

Portugal is among the most highly vaccinated countries in the world. Vice Adm. Henrique Gouveia e Melo, who led the campaign, said there was a key to his success: Keep politics out of it.

www.nytimes.com

And something a little softer but still packaged in american flags with eagles could have totally flown in the USA.

If Trump was pushing the vaccine like this (or at all) we would be over 90% for sure. Because people who have half a brain would get the vaccine regardless of what Trump does… and the Trumpers would all want to be the first to show their support for their leader.

 

[Herdfan]

First, the idea that I am afraid of any of you intellectually, emotionally or physically is laughable. Just sayin'.

I'll let you in on a secret: I use search engines quickly and efficiently and I make a substantial effort (at least on your scale) to understand opposing viewpoints. I start calling people out when I repeatedly catch them on not reading their own sources. Which has been my impression about you. I suspect you only read headlines and even cherry pick those.

The other thing I call people out for is intellectual cowardice. When your statements meet opposition, you make a 30sec effort to push back and if defending your stance takes more than that, you just wait out the topic change. Like here, I've asked you a bunch of questions and you've just tried to change the topic.

1. If you are such an advocate of medical freedom and oppose vaccine mandates, how come this didn't come to your mind when it came to Influenza?

Most hospitals I worked at has had an Influenza vaccine mandate for a looong time:

And most people knew that going in. They knew it BEFORE they spent years and thousands of dollars on their education and training.

So to drop a new condition of employment on them is wrong in my opinion. As for the flu vaccine, while I don't know all the reason HC workers are not wanting to take the vaccine, the speed in which it was developed certianly could factor into this decision and the flu, and other vaccines you mention, have been around for decades and people feel safe taking them. Don't forget, just a year ago there were several prominent Dems saying they wouldn't take the "Trump" vaccine. I wonder if those comments have had any bearing on some of these decisions.

2. Are you willing to admit that staffing issues predate COVID vaccine mandates?

Sure. They did. But vaccine mandates will make is worse. If "X" is the ideal number of people it takes to run an ICU, but due to staffing you only have "Y", but enough to run it, remove a few more people due to mandates and you can go from short-staffed to not being able to open a wing.

3. Are you willing to admit that running ICUs at capacity had contributed manyfold more to the staffing shortage than mandates?

That's possible. Perhaps even likely. The pandemic has caused burn-out in a number of industries, HC certainly being one hit the hardest. Causing further staffing shortages certainly won't help.

4. If you admit that staffing issues are most significantly impacted by the pandemic itself, wouldn't measures that control the pandemic be the most effective way to fight staffing issues?

The question uses the premise that the vaccine is the only way. My governor has proposed a bill that having had COVID is equivalent to being vaccinated for mandate purposes. I won't post any links because for everyone I post supporting that, there will be a link not supporting it. So I don't think we know for sure which is better.

This question also assumes HC workers who have left the field because of the pandemic or even prepandemic, will return when the pandemic is over. Or when staffing shortages ease (I get not wanting to work 60-70 hours a week) that these workers will come back.

5. You still have to answer: if COVID-19 is an indirect act of bioterrorism, isn't it the patriotic thing to do is to get vaccinated?

Two things can be true. It could have been created in a lab AND released on accident. I won't go so far as to blame the CCP for releasing it on purpose. So no, it wasn't an act of bioterrorism so no patriotic duty exists.

To provide my stance on all of this as a father of small children. The ultimate parenting success is to get your kids do the right thing without intimidation, but sometimes you have to be assertive to prevent them from hurting themselves. I believe in the same principle societally. America did a truly impressive job making smoking uncool and frowned upon. Opposing vaccination should receive similar societal attitudes. Yet here you are claiming to be a "vaccine-believer" but also normalizing antivaxxer sentiments.

Opposing the vaccine and opposing the mandate for the vaccine are two completely different things. Like I have posted in the past, businesses can mandate whatever conditions on employees they want, but I don't like when a government does it.

 

[fooferdoggie]

New Brunswick pastor jailed for a week as judge considers COVID-19 contempt charge​

New Brunswick pastor jailed for a week as judge considers COVID-19 contempt charge

A New Brunswick pastor is in custody after a court hearing Friday over his alleged breaches of COVID-19 public health rules was adjourned until next week.

atlantic.ctvnews.ca

 

[Roller]

First, the idea that I am afraid of any of you intellectually, emotionally or physically is laughable. Just sayin'.

And most people knew that going in. They knew it BEFORE they spent years and thousands of dollars on their education and training.

So to drop a new condition of employment on them is wrong in my opinion. As for the flu vaccine, while I don't know all the reason HC workers are not wanting to take the vaccine, the speed in which it was developed certianly could factor into this decision and the flu, and other vaccines you mention, have been around for decades and people feel safe taking them. Don't forget, just a year ago there were several prominent Dems saying they wouldn't take the "Trump" vaccine. I wonder if those comments have had any bearing on some of these decisions

Sure. They did. But vaccine mandates will make is worse. If "X" is the ideal number of people it takes to run an ICU, but due to staffing you only have "Y", but enough to run it, remove a few more people due to mandates and you can go from short-staffed to not being able to open a wing.

That's possible. Perhaps even likely. The pandemic has caused burn-out in a number of industries, HC certainly being one hit the hardest. Causing further staffing shortages certainly won't help.

The question uses the premise that the vaccine is the only way. My governor has proposed a bill that having had COVID is equivalent to being vaccinated for mandate purposes. I won't post any links because for everyone I post supporting that, there will be a link not supporting it. So I don't think we know for sure which is better.

This question also assumes HC workers who have left the field because of the pandemic or even prepandemic, will return when the pandemic is over. Or when staffing shortages ease (I get not wanting to work 60-70 hours a week) that these workers will come back.

Two things can be true. It could have been created in a lab AND released on accident. I won't go so far as to blame the CCP for releasing it on purpose. So no, it wasn't an act of bioterrorism so no patriotic duty exists.

Opposing the vaccine and opposing the mandate for the vaccine are two completely different things. Like I have posted in the past, businesses can mandate whatever conditions on employees they want, but I don't like when a government does it.

I'll comment on a few of your points:

1. The biggest driver for HCWs leaving our profession is burnout that began with facing a disease that was, at the beginning of the pandemic, barely treatable past a certain stage, coupled with the risk it put on them and their families. But that was followed by the much bigger disappointment of dealing with patients whose hospitalization, morbidity, and mortality could have been prevented by a free vaccine. It's as if a large segment of the population suddenly stopped using seat belts.

2. Infection with SARS-CoV-2 confers some immunity, but not as much as a full course of the top vaccines.

3. Your point about the newness of the vaccines being a cause for anxiety doesn't hold water if one takes the time to understand how they were developed and acknowledge that they've been administered hundreds of millions of times with excellent safety profiles. It also makes no sense that the politicians and others who favor monoclonal antibodies over vaccines have no such concerns.

4. You say that you don't like when governments mandate vaccination. Does that also apply to vaccines that have been required by state governments, the military, and others for many years?

 

[User.45]

First, the idea that I am afraid of any of you intellectually, emotionally or physically is laughable. Just sayin'.

This is a forum where all we know about a person is what and how they post. The fact that it took a promise and 2-3 days to come up with the above answers speak very loudly. So does your urge to point out that you aren't physically intimidated. Did any of us threaten you?

And most people knew that going in. They knew it BEFORE they spent years and thousands of dollars on their education and training. So to drop a new condition of employment on them is wrong in my opinion.

So you are suggesting that in any field, professional standards should only be upheld at the level they where when the person entered the profession?
Yes or No?

As for the flu vaccine, while I don't know all the reason HC workers are not wanting to take the vaccine, the speed in which it was developed certianly could factor into this decision and the flu, and other vaccines you mention, have been around for decades and people feel safe taking them.

COVID vaccines were just as adequately tested in phase I, II, III and now IV trials as influenza vaccinations (plural, there are many of them).
Those who value the age of evidence over its quality do not make an informed decision. As there are conventional COVID vaccines too, this is a transparent excuse. Concurrently:

Two randomized controlled studies evaluating the effect of health care worker vaccination on nursing home resi- dents found that health care worker influenza vaccination was associated with a 44% decrease in resident mortality.

Not killing your patients actively is a very minimal professional standard.
Source: https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdfplus/10.2105/AJPH.2009.190751

Don't forget, just a year ago there were several prominent Dems saying they wouldn't take the "Trump" vaccine. I wonder if those comments have had any bearing on some of these decisions.

"Those comments" don't exist and you know it, which makes you a LIAR.
County level voting and vaccination data shows the opposite.
Antivaxxerism is now a GOP issue and trying to push the responsibility to the other side is COWARDICE.

Sure. They did. But vaccine mandates will make is worse. If "X" is the ideal number of people it takes to run an ICU, but due to staffing you only have "Y", but enough to run it, remove a few more people due to mandates and you can go from short-staffed to not being able to open a wing.

That's possible. Perhaps even likely. The pandemic has caused burn-out in a number of industries, HC certainly being one hit the hardest. Causing further staffing shortages certainly won't help.

OK so you admitted staffing issues pre-date the COVID vaccine mandates and that COVID greatly contributed to said shortages.

Let's say 35% of ICU beds are used for COVID since 2020 and 95% of those are occupied by unvaxxed people, then >30% of your staffing is to cover preventable admissions. Burn out is 50% among nurses, and let's say antivaxxers are around 5%. In this scenario, you wasted third of your resources, burned out 50% of your nurses to keep 5% of the (wo)manpower. If this is responsible management for you, you're clearly not a fiscal conservative.

The question uses the premise that the vaccine is the only way. My governor has proposed a bill that having had COVID is equivalent to being vaccinated for mandate purposes. I won't post any links because for everyone I post supporting that, there will be a link not supporting it. So I don't think we know for sure which is better.

No, I used the word "control" and not "vaccinate" so you can't hide behind a non sequitur.

This question also assumes HC workers who have left the field because of the pandemic or even prepandemic, will return when the pandemic is over.

Only you made such an assumption. HC workers are a dynamic resource, but not infinite, unlike what Abbot and his ilk imply.

Two things can be true. It could have been created in a lab AND released on accident. I won't go so far as to blame the CCP for releasing it on purpose. So no, it wasn't an act of bioterrorism so no patriotic duty exists.

Read my question again. I used the term indirect, because if SARS-CoV-2 was developed in a lab, it is a bioweapon and releasing it even by accident is an act of bioterrorism. The patriotic duty to uphold national security only exists if it's the southern border or if the attack is intentional? Is this what you're saying?

Opposing the vaccine and opposing the mandate for the vaccine are two completely different things. Like I have posted in the past, businesses can mandate whatever conditions on employees they want, but I don't like when a government does it.

1) Let's change the word "business" to "employer." The government is a major employer.
2) You can oppose mandates but actually call out antivaxxers for the idiots 99% of them actually are.

 

[SuperMatt]

And most people knew that going in. They knew it BEFORE they spent years and thousands of dollars on their education and training.

So to drop a new condition of employment on them is wrong in my opinion. As for the flu vaccine, while I don't know all the reason HC workers are not wanting to take the vaccine, the speed in which it was developed certianly could factor into this decision and the flu, and other vaccines you mention, have been around for decades and people feel safe taking them. Don't forget, just a year ago there were several prominent Dems saying they wouldn't take the "Trump" vaccine. I wonder if those comments have had any bearing on some of these decisions.

Are you saying healthcare workers should only be required to get vaccines that existed when they started medical or nursing school? Don’t healthcare workers know that new medicines and vaccines are invented all the time? This argument doesn‘t even stand up to a mild breeze.

Don‘t auto mechanics need to work on new cars that come out? You wouldn’t get much work as a mechanic if you worked only on cars sold before you started your career…

I am not a doctor, but I believe the flu shot changes every year. If that’s true, then healthcare workers are agreeing to a new vaccine each year, and it makes no sense to be against the COVID one specifically. The only reason I can think of for doing so is being part of the Trump death cult…

 

[Herdfan]

"Those comments" don't exist and you know it, which makes you a LIAR.

After this post I am done. You can call me wrong, incorrect, misinformed or even ignorant. But you can't call me a liar.

'I will not take his word for it': Kamala Harris says she would not trust Trump alone on a coronavirus vaccine

Democratic vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris said that President Donald Trump's word alone on any potential coronavirus vaccine is not enough.

www.cnn.com

Democrat Biden warns against rushing out coronavirus vaccine, says Trump cannot be trusted

Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden on Wednesday rejected President Donald Trump's charge that he is spreading fear about the safety of a potential coronavirus vaccine, urging Trump to defer to scientists and not rush its rollout.

www.reuters.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/03/18/what-andrew-cuomo-kamala-harris-said-about-vaccine-skepticism/

Every time you write about such things, though, the pushback is similar: What about New York Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo (D) and Vice President Harris?

Months ago, both made comments of questionable wisdom about the safety of the then-impending vaccines. Both indicated that they didn’t fully trust the Trump administration to oversee the process.

I will end by saying both are idiots. Trump had nothing to do with the development of any of these vaccines.

 

[SuperMatt]

After this post I am done. You can call me wrong, incorrect, misinformed or even ignorant. But you can't call me a liar.

'I will not take his word for it': Kamala Harris says she would not trust Trump alone on a coronavirus vaccine

Democratic vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris said that President Donald Trump's word alone on any potential coronavirus vaccine is not enough.

www.cnn.com

Democrat Biden warns against rushing out coronavirus vaccine, says Trump cannot be trusted

Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden on Wednesday rejected President Donald Trump's charge that he is spreading fear about the safety of a potential coronavirus vaccine, urging Trump to defer to scientists and not rush its rollout.

www.reuters.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/03/18/what-andrew-cuomo-kamala-harris-said-about-vaccine-skepticism/

I will end by saying both are idiots. Trump had nothing to do with the development of any of these vaccines.

Those quotes and your “take” on them are NOT the same thing. You are saying one thing, and if you read the article, you’ll see you’ve missed the mark when you said:

Don't forget, just a year ago there were several prominent Dems saying they wouldn't take the "Trump" vaccine.

What was actually said (from your linked article):

"I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump and it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he's talking about," she continued in the clip from an exclusive interview airing Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union" at 9 a.m. ET. "I will not take his word for it."

She wouldn’t take his word for it, she would rely on a credible source of information (like the NIH, CDC, or FDA).

As for Biden:

“Let me be clear: I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don’t trust Donald Trump,” Biden said. “At this moment, the American people can’t either.”

Biden warned against trying to rush out an unfinished vaccine ahead of the Nov. 3 election.

Trying to rush a vaccine without testing it would endanger people, and Trump was pressing to have it ready before the election regardless of the status of the testing.

The clear difference between your CLAIM and the REALITY is why I think @P_X called you a liar. Neither Harris nor Biden said they wouldn’t take a vaccine, but that they trust the scientists and doctors, NOT Donald Trump.

 

[User.45]

After this post I am done. You can call me wrong, incorrect, misinformed or even ignorant. But you can't call me a liar.

Sure, you're not a liar. You're just Calculon.

 

[Herdfan]

Not sure how you will blame the GOP in this one. But go ahead and try:

MSN

www.msn.com

Also probably not a majority of Republicans:

‘Defund The Media!’: Protest Against Vax Mandate Erupts Outside New York Times Building

Protestors demonstrated Saturday against vaccine mandates in front of the New York Times (NYT) building in New York City, chanting,

dailycaller.com

 

[SuperMatt]

Not sure how you will blame the GOP in this one. But go ahead and try:

MSN

www.msn.com

Also probably not a majority of Republicans:

‘Defund The Media!’: Protest Against Vax Mandate Erupts Outside New York Times Building

Protestors demonstrated Saturday against vaccine mandates in front of the New York Times (NYT) building in New York City, chanting,

dailycaller.com

What is the purpose of your preface to the first story? Has anybody here previously mentioned that story and/or blamed anybody for it? In my reading of it, it looks like Newsom screwed up by allowing people to test instead of getting the vaccine. It should be: vaccine or go home. The testing is a needless ongoing expense. You want to work for the state of California? Great, get a vaccine. If not, find another employer.

And I don’t understand your analysis of the 2nd story. Do you believe those protesters in NYC holding “F*&* Biden” signs are democrats? Not bloody likely.

 

[Alli]

Not sure how you will blame the GOP in this one. But go ahead and try:

MSN

www.msn.com

Also probably not a majority of Republicans:

‘Defund The Media!’: Protest Against Vax Mandate Erupts Outside New York Times Building

Protestors demonstrated Saturday against vaccine mandates in front of the New York Times (NYT) building in New York City, chanting,

dailycaller.com

You’re quoting a source started by Tucker Carlson? Well that definitely provides entertainment value.

 

[Pumbaa]

What is the purpose of your preface to the first story? Has anybody here previously mentioned that story and/or blamed anybody for it?

And I don’t understand your analysis of the 2nd story. Do you believe those protesters in NYC holding “F*&* Biden” signs are democrats? Not bloody likely.

Just two more stories he didn’t read. Business as usual.

 

[Herdfan]

Here are some clips from both Biden & Harris talking about the vaccine.

What is the purpose of your preface to the first story? Has anybody here previously mentioned that story and/or blamed anybody for it?

And I don’t understand your analysis of the 2nd story. Do you believe those protesters in NYC holding “F*&* Biden” signs are democrats? Not bloody likely.

People blame the GOP for being anti-vax in general. I don't necessarily agree, but it is what it is. So you would think in heavy Democratic CA, there would be more say compliance with vaccine mandates ordered by a Dem Governor.

Hate to break it to you, lots of Dems are not happy with Biden right now. So the idea a Dem would be carrying a F-Biden sign is not out of line.

 

[Herdfan]

You’re quoting a source started by Tucker Carlson? Well that definitely provides entertainment value.

I will apologize for that one. I was going through several sources and didn't realize the DC was one of them. I am trying not use those sources.

 

[SuperMatt]

Hate to break it to you, lots of Dems are not happy with Biden right now. So the idea a Dem would be carrying a F-Biden sign is not out of line.

Yes it is out of line. Let me guess, because the protesters are in NYC, you assume they are democrats or some nonsense like that?

Check out the NY Post coverage of the event. Then tell me that’s a group of Democrats. Come on dude, are you even trying? Absolutely pathetic, lazy attempt.

#anattemptwasmade

Hundreds demand ‘freedom’ from COVID-19 vaccine at Times Square rally

Nearly 1,000 people flocked to a Times Square rally Saturday to protest the COVID-19 vaccine and mandates that they get jabbed.

nypost.com