Electric Vehicles: General topics

[Yoused]

… having a grid that’s over 90% coal (as of 2014) is not going to do EVs many favors. It pushes the break even point of an EV vs ICE in terms of emissions waaaay out there.

Remember that a coal-fired power plant operates at optimum efficiency, and that ICEs rely on ICEs to get the fuel to where they can pump it out of the ground into the vehicle tanks – EVs make best use of the power they acquire off the grid, which is shipped over wires (not in trucks). So the dirtiness of EVs is vastly overstated, in the interest of saying "oil doesn't suck" (spoiler: it does).

 

[Nycturne]

Remember that a coal-fired power plant operates at optimum efficiency, and that ICEs rely on ICEs to get the fuel to where they can pump it out of the ground into the vehicle tanks – EVs make best use of the power they acquire off the grid, which is shipped over wires (not in trucks). So the dirtiness of EVs is vastly overstated, in the interest of saying "oil doesn't suck" (spoiler: it does).

Oh, I agree that in use the emissions per mile is still in favor of EVs. Especially when you take into account the emissions costs of refining and moving the fuel. However, the emissions cost of making the car (thanks in part to the environmental impact of mining the materials needed for current battery chemistries which is energy intensive, and the extra material needed for the car to handle the battery weight) is higher than the ICE car for now. So fresh off the line, the EV starts at a deficit it needs to “pay off” before it beats the ICE car. Because of that higher up front impact, the longer you can run the EV, recycle the batteries, etc, the better for emissions in the long run.

The difference is that the type of energy mix you have can change where that break even point is. If you live in parts of the PNW where >90% of your electricity comes from hydro, solar/wind, nuclear, that’s sort of a best case scenario right now and the EV can pay off early on. But as the mix gets dirtier, it takes longer to break even.

While we don’t have a lot of data that provides a good like-for-like comparison, Volvo shared some data on their XC40 ICE vs XC40 Recharge. Their main comparison was over a 200,000 km lifespan (just shy of 125k miles), and the ICE was the dirtiest. Unfortunately, they don’t mention exactly what the EU-28 and global mixes actually represent when it comes to power generation, so it’s hard to say if WV power is worse than the global mix or not (it could very well be at >90% coal).

 

[Yoused]

Well, when you add in the construction, maintenance and environmental cost of roads, highways, tires making dust on the pavement and surface management (plowing/salting), even bicycles start to become nearly as dirty as cars.

 

[Nycturne]

Well, when you add in the construction, maintenance and environmental cost of roads, highways, tires making dust on the pavement and surface management (plowing/salting), even bicycles start to become nearly as dirty as cars.

I’m not really sure where this in particular came from. It’s not a bad thing to look at impact holistically over the life of a vehicle if the goal is to reduce emissions. Since it reveals that even just keeping our cars longer helps reduce our impact.

As for the claim presented here, not even close. The paved area needed, and the weight of the vehicles that use it are the key factors when talking about the environmental impact. Bike paths require less maintenance and demand fewer resources to maintain/build. Bike parking uses less asphalt (and can even be indoors), takes up less space, and would help make for more dense cities, reducing the average trip distance. I could also build a hundred e-bikes using the same number of lithium cells that something like the ID.4 takes. A hundred electric scooters. Light transport like bikes start out less resource intensive, and stay that way throughout their life, and only look even better when you take infrastructure into account..

Honestly, the biggest impact we could have to reduce the environmental cost of roads in the short term would be to reduce the amount of freight being carried on roads, and getting more people onto alternate forms of transit. A city bus can move at least double the people per unit of vehicle weight. Light rail and even train freight runs on tracks whose lifespan is around 50 years, and is inherently easier to refurbish or recycle, reducing impact over the long term.

Am I still going to buy an EV? Yes. I am impatiently waiting in line for my reservation. But we could hit climate goals much faster with tech we already have if we wanted to.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I’m not really sure where this in particular came from. It’s not a bad thing to look at impact holistically over the life of a vehicle if the goal is to reduce emissions. Since it reveals that even just keeping our cars longer helps reduce our impact.

As for the claim presented here, not even close. The paved area needed, and the weight of the vehicles that use it are the key factors when talking about the environmental impact. Bike paths require less maintenance and demand fewer resources to maintain/build. Bike parking uses less asphalt (and can even be indoors), takes up less space, and would help make for more dense cities, reducing the average trip distance. I could also build a hundred e-bikes using the same number of lithium cells that something like the ID.4 takes. A hundred electric scooters. Light transport like bikes start out less resource intensive, and stay that way throughout their life, and only look even better when you take infrastructure into account..

Honestly, the biggest impact we could have to reduce the environmental cost of roads in the short term would be to reduce the amount of freight being carried on roads, and getting more people onto alternate forms of transit. A city bus can move at least double the people per unit of vehicle weight. Light rail and even train freight runs on tracks whose lifespan is around 50 years, and is inherently easier to refurbish or recycle, reducing impact over the long term.

Am I still going to buy an EV? Yes. I am impatiently waiting in line for my reservation. But we could hit climate goals much faster with tech we already have if we wanted to.

Our bus comes to the village twice a day. 90% of the time it’s empty. Not sure how that’s good for the environment.
We would be better off providing more opportunities for people to WFH and negate any sort of commute.

 

[Nycturne]

Our bus comes to the village twice a day. 90% of the time it’s empty. Not sure how that’s good for the environment.

Keep in mind when I discuss this, I am being a bit city centric (or metropolitan area for regions like the US where urban sprawl is a thing). It's a numbers game at the end of the day. If I can make a change that impacts a couple hundred thousand people, or a couple thousand people, if my goal is lower emissions quickly, the former group should be where my attention is focused.

If the transportation option is such that people won't use it for various reasons, then yes, it's not going to help, but the reason why can be complex. Solutions for some regions will not be the same for others as well for various reasons. But I'm a bit more concerned about areas where you have long commutes due to traffic in crowded regions, which exacerbates the fuel costs/etc, and where these sort of gains are much bigger due to infrastructure that's already costly in support of single-occupant car commuters, and represents a significant drain on the region's resources and tax base.

Getting folks in dense areas out of cars, breaking car dependence for poorer folks, makes electrification easier, not harder, and makes more resources available for folks living outside the city to electrify, lowers immediate demand (and upward price pressure) on EVs, making them easier to afford. It also makes infrastructure cheaper in the long run, and promotes a healthier tax base that can afford to do more interesting things with that money. It doesn't have to be a zero-sum game.

In the US, many suburbs are subsidized by folks living and working in the city core. It's effectively a hidden regressive tax.

We would be better off providing more opportunities for people to WFH and negate any sort of commute.

I did have a bit about reducing trip distances being a big factor (especially towards making non-car/bus transit easier in regions), but edited it out of my post.

 

[Yoused]

Keep in mind when I discuss this, I am being a bit city centric (or metropolitan area for regions like the US where urban sprawl is a thing).

We will probably eventually have to revise our broader social ethos. Right now, if I live in Recluse Wyoming or Starkweather North Dakota, I expect my lifestyle to be comparable to that of my cousin who lives in the Slide Pointe development on the edge of Petaluma California. It is not clear how long we can maintain this homogeneity of lifestyle, or even whether we ought to.

 

[Nycturne]

We will probably eventually have to revise our broader social ethos. Right now, if I live in Recluse Wyoming or Starkweather North Dakota, I expect my lifestyle to be comparable to that of my cousin who lives in the Slide Pointe development on the edge of Petaluma California. It is not clear how long we can maintain this homogeneity of lifestyle, or even whether we ought to.

Don’t disagree, but I suspect it’s people in the cities that are probably the ones looking at a larger readjustment (I say as one of them), but we have better answers for cities right now, so maybe not a bad situation to be in. In the US we managed to reshape our cities in favor of cars, and crafted the current idea of the American Dream after WWII. It’s not impossible to do what you suggest because as a society we do it every so often. I’d just rather we do it because of the carrot (lower the cost of living in cities and provide regular workers breathing room) rather than the stick (climate change creating hardships decades from now). And I could be wrong on this, it is speculative and we may find a way though the process of electrification without drastically reshaping how our cities currently work and without the climate being a harsh forcing function on the whole thing.

Anyways, being a little more on topic, I wish I had more to say on EV ownership, but I suspect it will be early next year before I get mine. Anyone else wish car colors weren’t so boring though? With the supply issues, it seems like the options are thin to keep things simple. It seems like the only colors on offer for many EVs I’m looking at are white, grey/silver, black, red and blue. *sigh*

 

[Apple fanboy]

Don’t disagree, but I suspect it’s people in the cities that are probably the ones looking at a larger readjustment (I say as one of them), but we have better answers for cities right now, so maybe not a bad situation to be in. In the US we managed to reshape our cities in favor of cars, and crafted the current idea of the American Dream after WWII. It’s not impossible to do what you suggest because as a society we do it every so often. I’d just rather we do it because of the carrot (lower the cost of living in cities and provide regular workers breathing room) rather than the stick (climate change creating hardships decades from now). And I could be wrong on this, it is speculative and we may find a way though the process of electrification without drastically reshaping how our cities currently work and without the climate being a harsh forcing function on the whole thing.

Anyways, being a little more on topic, I wish I had more to say on EV ownership, but I suspect it will be early next year before I get mine. Anyone else wish car colors weren’t so boring though? With the supply issues, it seems like the options are thin to keep things simple. It seems like the only colors on offer for many EVs I’m looking at are white, grey/silver, black, red and blue. *sigh*

Nothing wrong with red! I like my red and black i3!

Interesting point you make about traffic. Of course that’s where an EV wins hands down. ICE vehicles sit in traffic jams for hours burning fossil fuels. But an EV doesn’t. Traffic just increased your range!

That said the list art of walking in the US could all help. I remember being in LA and my hotel was 2-3 miles from the exhibition centre. I’d just walk in everyday rather than get an Uber. Some of the people I was working with thought I was mad!

 

[DT]

Anyways, being a little more on topic, I wish I had more to say on EV ownership, but I suspect it will be early next year before I get mine.

We're just shy of 17 months with the Wrangler 4xe (PHEV) and and a week away from 15 months with the Tesla and it's still pretty fantastic.

Some folks here know how much of a car enthusiast I am, I've owned quite a few, I've spent hour after hour talking about cars online, writing articles, I've done shows, track events, magazines, prototyped parts, I enjoy all the aspects of ownership, it's my hobby so to speak. So for me, it was a big deal to leave my comfort zone of ICE vehicles.

The 4xe was the gateway drug, sure, we wanted to try a Wrangler (for all the fun things they do well), but the real impact it made with me was the EV part. The Wrangler worked out that it was both a vehicle we wanted and gave us a way to try an EV without fully committing to battery only. It didn't take long to realize how well the EV part worked for us and two months later, I've got my car traded for a BEV, and the Wrangler replacement in about 18-19 months will be a BEV as well.

Hahaha, this is the last two "pure" ICE vehicle we will almost assuredly, ever own, surrounding their new stablemate (for a few days), giving it the side-eye

Anyone else wish car colors weren’t so boring though? With the supply issues, it seems like the options are thin to keep things simple. It seems like the only colors on offer for many EVs I’m looking at are white, grey/silver, black, red and blue. *sigh*

Yeah, there's always going to be all the "gray-scale" colors, that include 2-3 gray/silver variants, maybe a blue or red, and then depending on the company, possibly multiple shades of blue, maybe a limited time special color (see Orange Fury Metallic above ), and some of the companies entering the EV space, are, well, let's be honest, sort of boring anyway.

As companies like BMW are increasing their EV presence, they're starting to get a little more interesting with color options, this is the current choices on an i4 M50:

That doesn't include some higher cost "special" colors (that according to the site "could add an extra 10 weeks to delivery).


And there's always a wrap, where you can get as nutty as you want

 

[Herdfan]

Anyways, being a little more on topic, I wish I had more to say on EV ownership, but I suspect it will be early next year before I get mine. Anyone else wish car colors weren’t so boring though? With the supply issues, it seems like the options are thin to keep things simple. It seems like the only colors on offer for many EVs I’m looking at are white, grey/silver, black, red and blue. *sigh*

Get it wrapped. You probably see wrapped cars every day and have no idea. The strides made in the quality of wraps over the past few years is amazing. Plenty of videos on TikTok of people having brand new vehicles wrapped.

 

[DT]

Get it wrapped. You probably see wrapped cars every day and have no idea. The strides made in the quality of wraps over the past few years is amazing. Plenty of videos on TikTok of people having brand new vehicles wrapped.

Wraps are just insane, I remember when I first saw a really good one years ago, and my ol' school brain couldn't reconcile that it wasn't paint. It was smooth like paint, glossy like paint, covered every nook and cranny on the body like paint ... but brother, it ain't paint.

 

[Herdfan]

Wraps are just insane, I remember when I first saw a really good one years ago,

First one I really saw being done was in the pits at a NASCAR race. They had to replace a front fender and we got to see them put a new wrap on. Ten minutes and it looked like it had never been wrecked. The decals and stickers and everything was already printed on the wrap.

My first SXS was a yellow Can-Am Commander. And the yellow on the dash really reflected off the windshield making it hard to see sometimes. So I ordered some black wrap and wrapped the dash. Worked great, but certainly not as a clean as someone who does it professionally.

 

[DT]

I'd love to wrap the Tesla, and I may still do it. I tend to get cranky over things where the materials are cheap and the labor expensive, because I DIY so much (partially out of the enjoyment of doing it).

That being said, a wrap is tricky and complex without any previous experience. A buddy of mine did his car himself, and it came out pretty darn good, he lucked into a huge quantity of wrap material for nearly nothing, like enough to do his whole vehicle probably 3 times (so lots extra for testing/trial and error), and he was going from dark metallic gray to dark satin gray, so that allowed for a little more margin of error (in terms of visible paint), and he worked on it for about a month (works from home like me, so the car sits most of the time).

 

[Nycturne]

Get it wrapped. You probably see wrapped cars every day and have no idea. The strides made in the quality of wraps over the past few years is amazing. Plenty of videos on TikTok of people having brand new vehicles wrapped.

That’s probably the direction I’ll wind up going to be honest. I’ve just been spoiled by the color choices Subaru has been making with the Outback where their color choices are all pretty good in my eye and so it’s easier to not be picky.

The 4xe was the gateway drug, sure, we wanted to try a Wrangler (for all the fun things they do well), but the real impact it made with me was the EV part. The Wrangler worked out that it was both a vehicle we wanted and gave us a way to try an EV without fully committing to battery only. It didn't take long to realize how well the EV part worked for us and two months later, I've got my car traded for a BEV, and the Wrangler replacement in about 18-19 months will be a BEV as well.

The Subaru I’ve been driving I always assumed would be my last ICE vehicle. I liked that Tesla was pushing EVs into the public consciousness, but I just never saw one I was willing to buy. So the Outback has been a bit of a “drive it until I find a BEV that is similar enough to it” purchase. If resale value stays high in the time it takes to get the ID.4, I will be able to recoup most of what I paid OTD, which is pretty amazing for a 5 year old car.

For me, it’s just that by the time I would seriously consider a PHEV, my commute got long enough that either the PHEV would be switching to gas before I got into the office (Crosstrek) or would need to recharge if I wanted to get home on battery too. We don’t yet have enough chargers at work to go around, so fighting every day to get some time on them wasn’t something I was enthusiastic about.

About the only PHEV that would let me do my commute purely on battery and not give up too much on the ability to haul stuff on the evenings/weekends that I have now was the RAV4 Prime. Also rare as hen’s teeth right now. So why not just go full BEV if one that meets my needs exists?

As companies like BMW are increasing their EV presence, they're starting to get a little more interesting with color options, this is the current choices on an i4 M50:

I do like those color options on the i4. With Subaru I’ve always gotten green, and that green is quite nice.

VW of America made some odd choices with the 2023 ID.4 colors. The light interior choice is surprisingly busy with black, dark grey, off-white and dark blue all over, and the seats themselves are two-tone off-white and dark blue which makes me think of much older two-tone interiors that haven’t really been a thing in ages. I don’t hate it, but it’d get old for me pretty quick. But the only non-monochrome color with the dark grey interior is a bright red. Fun.

Honestly, I’d be fine with the VW blue if either the light interior was a bit better, or it came with the darker interior.

Interesting point you make about traffic. Of course that’s where an EV wins hands down. ICE vehicles sit in traffic jams for hours burning fossil fuels. But an EV doesn’t. Traffic just increased your range!

That said the list art of walking in the US could all help. I remember being in LA and my hotel was 2-3 miles from the exhibition centre. I’d just walk in everyday rather than get an Uber. Some of the people I was working with thought I was mad!

Yeah, it’s one reason I do want an EV, because the local public transit isn’t going to have good options for the area around our house for another decade. I’d still need to drive to the local park and ride when it does appear, which an EV would be better for anyways.

And agree. The thing that I lament the most is that walking/biking in many areas in North America is outright dangerous because of the assumption that streets are for cars and the lack of infrastructure for anyone not in a car. It isn’t uncommon to have cars refuse to yield to crosswalks at larger intersections, so even when I’m trying to follow “the rules” that handed over the streets to cars in the first place, I’m taking my life into my hands trying to walk those 2-3 miles eating lunch off campus at work. And yes I’m a bit bitter because I had that happen just yesterday and nearly got hit by cars twice at the same intersection crossing at a crosswalk when I had clear right of way (once crossing to get somewhere, and again crossing getting back).

 

[Deleted member 215]

So...California's current power grid can't support AC usage on a hot day; how is it going to support all these EVs charging once gas-powered cars are fully phased out?

 

[Cmaier]

So...California's current power grid can't support AC usage on a hot day; how is it going to support all these EVs charging once gas-powered cars are fully phased out?

They don't all charge simultaneously, first of all. And charger use doesn't spike - it's predictable. And people tend to charge their cars when usage is low (i.e. early morning/late night) to save money.

 

[DT]

Stellantis Media

Stellantis Media Site

media.stellantisnorthamerica.com

Maybe some updates about the BEV Wrangler "Magneto", but my money is on an announcement of a 4xe Gladiator (since Jeep already has a 4xe Wrangler and GC). Plus, the usual corporate-speak about their "Future EV commitment ..."

3 new BEVs revealed!

Jeep® Brand Reveals Plan for Global Leadership in SUV Electrification

The Jeep® brand reveals next phase of its all-electric product offensive to become the global Zero-Emission SUV leader

www.media.stellantis.com

The new Jeep Avenger for the European market, supposed to arrive in '23, small-er-ish, 248 mile range, looks fun:

A new Wagoneer S, smaller than the current behemoth, 400 mile range, 0-60 in ~3.5 seconds, super fast charging (of course, all claimed):

(Sure that'll be pricey)


And finally, what I was hoping to see, though it was a different name

The new Recon! That's basically the BEV Wrangler, and I even understand that name was used for a Wrangler package/model at some point.

The Recon may be a "day one" pre-order/order for us - and they're saying orders will begin in '23 with deliveries in '24 which would be perfect timing for us and the current Wrangler.

• True trail-rated capability with Jeep Selec-Terrain traction management system, e-locker axle technology, under-body protection, tow hooks and aggressive off-road tires
• Authentic Jeep open-air freedom with a one-touch powertop, removable doors and glass
• The latest generation Uconnect system, including detailed travel guides of the most notable off-road trails

Sure, there's a few kind of notable unknowns, price, and range, the latter based on their new platform specs, ground up design, etc., I can't imagine the Recon not having at least 250, if not a bit higher (bigger, more weight, but larger battery).

 

[Herdfan]

They don't all charge simultaneously, first of all. And charger use doesn't spike - it's predictable. And people tend to charge their cars when usage is low (i.e. early morning/late night) to save money.

Even those who charge during the day at their workplace, sometimes for free?

 

[Nycturne]

So...California's current power grid can't support AC usage on a hot day; how is it going to support all these EVs charging once gas-powered cars are fully phased out?

The duck curve for grids where solar is abundant means that during the day itself, power is readily available, but there’s still that peak period during 4-9pm where solar isn’t as good, but you’ve got folks trying to do more at home (dinner, coming home from work, etc). I’d argue that PG&E’s mismanagement of the aging transmission infrastructure doesn’t help here either.

Here’s another way to look at it: Electric stoves we can consider to be about 2kW. Central A/C units vary a lot, but let’s say around 3kW while it runs. So during the 4-9pm peak time, if I’m cooking and running the A/C, that can easily be a 5kW draw on the grid right as a bunch of other homes are all trying to do the same thing.

L1 chargers run at just over 1kW, and can top up a BEV after a commute surprisingly well overnight. L2 chargers can be up to 11kW, but a 7.6kW L2 charger is more than enough for many. An ID.4 with a 77kWh battery can charge off a 7.6kW charger fully overnight, but realistically for a 40mi commute like mine, would top up in under 2 hours. So charging even slower than that is absolutely an option.

As Cmaier points out, you don’t need to be charging right as you get home. TOU incentives and “smart” L2 chargers can ensure you have a topped up battery in the morning without charging during peak demand. And unless you are burning the vehicles entire capacity every day, you shouldn’t be in a situation of “must charge now or else” right as you get home. With my commute and an ID.4, I’d expect to be able to go 3 days of normal use without recharging, assuming a daily commute and some short-range errands.

Even those who charge during the day at their workplace, sometimes for free?

That sort of charging is actually beneficial, due to the duck curve. The excess of solar during the middle of the day means that in these situations, charging at work is preferred to trying to charge at 4-9pm as you get home from work.

EDIT: This is also why one way to help reduce the peak demand on days like this is to over-cool your house using the A/C before the peak period starts, and use the house itself as a sort of thermal battery to ride out the peak hours with the A/C off.