Electric Vehicles: General topics

[Cmaier]

I'm all about being equitable but this isn't like a gas station, these stops can be anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour and if lines start forming it will hardly be worth it. Last time I went into the city I took my wife's rig and gassing up took all of 2 minutes and I was out of there, had forgotten how easy it was.

It would be one thing if I didn't travel all the time but when I drive to SF the first thing I have to do is charge for 30 minutes and it's become a real bummer. Moving to Sonoma in a couple of weeks so hopefully that will lessen the burden as I'll be able to go there and back without charging and can just do it at home.

Seems inevitable that all chargers will end up with the Tesla connector; which will eventually open up supercharger slots.

 

[Citysnaps]

Seems inevitable that all chargers will end up with the Tesla connector; which will eventually open up supercharger slots.

Knowing little about EVs, but may purchase one in the future, how common is it for non-Tesla EVs to have Tesla connectors?

 

[Nycturne]

Seems inevitable that all chargers will end up with the Tesla connector; which will eventually open up supercharger slots.

Or we get a weird situation where have a prolonged VHS vs Beta style confrontation. NEVI's final rulemaking requires that you must include CCS1 on all ports. You can then add on NACS or Chademo on top of that, but CCS1 is mandated. And yes, this is different from the original rule that just specified "2 or more automakers". So HMG and VWAG can be holdouts without much suffering on their part for years.

At the very least, I would be surprised if I can't get by for a good while with my CCS EV.

Knowing little about EVs, but may purchase one in the future, how common is it for non-Tesla EVs to have Tesla connectors?

Before Ford and GM's announcements, roughly 0%.

A big reason for that is that Tesla's patent sharing requirements were onerous enough that nobody took the devil's bargin. With Tesla rebranding the connector as NACS, they've dropped the requirement, but I'm still not super jazzed about one company controlling a vital spec while also being a competitor in the field.

 

[Cmaier]

Knowing little about EVs, but may purchase one in the future, how common is it for non-Tesla EVs to have Tesla connectors?

It’s unheard of. But Ford, and now GM, both have announced that they will shift to using Tesla connectors.

 

[Yoused]

Or we get a weird situation where have a prolonged VHS vs Beta style confrontation

The underlying point is this: you arrive home and plug in. Your level-2 home charger gives you 15mph. You spend 12 hours at home (8 of those sleeping). Hence, just by hanging outat home, you have put 180 miles on your vehicle, which is probably more than you will use tomorrow. This means that the 5~10 minutes every (other) day yu spend at the pumps is erased. This, in and of itself, pays for the cost of EVs.

 

[Cmaier]

At the very least, I would be surprised if I can't get by for a good while with my CCS EV.

Certainly true. I just don’t know that I want to spend $100k on a new car with a CCS connector, like I was about to, given all this news. At the very least, I’d want to hear that my CCS car will be compatible with superchargers via adapter. (I own two Tesla->CCS adapters for guests and future use, but they are AC only.)

 

[Nycturne]

The underlying point is this: you arrive home and plug in. Your level-2 home charger gives you 15mph. You spend 12 hours at home (8 of those sleeping). Hence, just by hanging outat home, you have put 180 miles on your vehicle, which is probably more than you will use tomorrow. This means that the 5~10 minutes every (other) day yu spend at the pumps is erased. This, in and of itself, pays for the cost of EVs.

True, but not sure how it applies to the discussion at play. I was discussing things from the DCFC angle. i.e. when you are making trips outside your car's "single tank" range.

Much like Cmaier, I have AC charger adapters, and AC charging is simple enough that there's no real issue with J1772 vs NACS/Tesla. It's CCS vs NACS/Tesla that gets you into a format war of sorts here. Especially because of NEVI's mandates going in the opposite direction of GM/Ford.

Certainly true. I just don’t know that I want to spend $100k on a new car with a CCS connector, like I was about to, given all this news. At the very least, I’d want to hear that my CCS car will be compatible with superchargers via adapter. (I own two Tesla->CCS adapters for guests and future use, but they are AC only.)

Unless Tesla decides to abandon NEVI money entirely and the Magic Dock on V4 Superchargers, I still suspect Tesla will be planning on supporting CCS on new installs for a while to come.

 

[Cmaier]

WaPo Report Reveals High Number of Crashes Involving Self-Driving Teslas — The Daily Beast

Experts told The Washington Post that decisions made by Tesla CEO Elon Musk may have contributed to a spike in crashes.

apple.news

Oops.

 

[diamond.g]

Certainly true. I just don’t know that I want to spend $100k on a new car with a CCS connector, like I was about to, given all this news. At the very least, I’d want to hear that my CCS car will be compatible with superchargers via adapter. (I own two Tesla->CCS adapters for guests and future use, but they are AC only.)

If you don’t travel why does it matter what plug it has?

 

[Cmaier]

If you don’t travel why does it matter what plug it has?

In the 10 years I’ve had my tesla, I’ve only *had* to supercharge on one trip. I’ve supercharged opportunistically on other occasions (it’s free for me, so if there’s a charger where i happen to be, I have used it a few times). I’ve j1772-charged at work a handful of times when there’s been multi-day blackouts at my house.

So, in the grand scheme of things, yeah, it probably wouldn’t matter. But given the amount of money, and given that it’s pretty clear that the US is going Tesla-connector, I’d just hate to be stuck with the CCS monstrosity. Especially if I’m keeping the next car for 10 years.

 

[Nycturne]

But given the amount of money, and given that it’s pretty clear that the US is going Tesla-connector, I’d just hate to be stuck with the CCS monstrosity. Especially if I’m keeping the next car for 10 years.

To be honest, I think it’s gonna be a while before things get settled. CCS requirements in NEVI mean other manufacturers can be stubborn and not be any worse off than they are now.

NACS jettisoning legacy Tesla protocols in favor of the CCS version of the spec provide less pressure to pick sides especially if adapters become readily available.

I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re still having this conversation of “why don’t we have a single plug?” In 2030.

 

[Cmaier]

To be honest, I think it’s gonna be a while before things get settled. CCS requirements in NEVI mean other manufacturers can be stubborn and not be any worse off than they are now.

NACS jettisoning legacy Tesla protocols in favor of the CCS version of the spec provide less pressure to pick sides especially if adapters become readily available.

I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re still having this conversation of “why don’t we have a single plug?” In 2030.

Could very well be.

 

[Nycturne]

And to be honest, if Tesla properly donates the spec to a standards group (and gets patent stuff sorted out under FRAND at the very least). Fine, adopt it and get it over with please.

But so long as Tesla clings to control, I’m not super inclined to trust the Musk.

 

[Cmaier]

And to be honest, if Tesla properly donates the spec to a standards group (and gets patent stuff sorted out under FRAND at the very least). Fine, adopt it and get it over with please.

But so long as Tesla clings to control, I’m not super inclined to trust the Musk.

I just like it so much better than CCS. It’s like usb-c vs micro-usb.

 

[Nycturne]

I just like it so much better than CCS. It’s like usb-c vs micro-usb.

Except it’s not as open as USB-C or micro-USB at this point. Imagine if Apple pushed hard for lightning to be the next USB connector a decade ago, but refused to relinquish it to a standards body. Not a great look. We will have to see if Tesla makes good on that front.

At least Apple is more likely to donate to standards bodies before declaring something open for use.

EDIT: Looks like CharIN is signaling they are willing to sit at the table and hash things out now after saying the opposite: https://www.charin.global/news/char...o-supports-the-standardization-of-tesla-nacs/

Maybe we will see this sorted out sooner rather than later so long as Musk doesn’t grab defeat from the jaws of victory?

 

[AG_PhamD]

I would have expected that the government or an institution like IEEE would have organized having a universal standard when it comes to these chargers. At least within the United States, Europe, etc.

Frankly, given the amount of funding the government has and is pouring into the EV ecosystem, it’s really unacceptable there is no mandate of a standardized connector.

The other problem is you have all these adapters being made that may not be approved by the relevant manufacturers and certifications by groups like UL or CE to verify safety and quality. There’s a lot of power running through those chargers so adapters made with cheap components/construction or that affect charger safety should be looked at as a problem. And you can bet Amazon will be increasingly flooded with cheap adapters from China that are not to spec.

I know a several people who have had problems with adapters melting.

So why not just have a standardized system? If companies want to have proprietary chargers they can control that through software easily enough.

Something like this should not be as complicated as it has become.

 

[Citysnaps]

Getting to the point where I could see going EV making sense for me (and having two 240v 50A dedicated circuits wired in during construction for that and a kiln), looking at various possibilities, and probably making a decision within the next six months, this connector issue comes up regarding charging on the road. Not sure what to do. Wait longer?

 

[Nycturne]

I would have expected that the government or an institution like IEEE would have organized having a universal standard when it comes to these chargers. At least within the United States, Europe, etc.

You are describing CCS. CCS protocols are covered by ISO 15118 and the plugs themselves are covered in IEC 62196. There isn’t a global standard here because of the differences in power delivery unfortunately. The Type 2 connector used in EU and many other places can support 3 phase power, while the SAE J1772 connector (also covered in IEC 62196) does not, but easily supports the split phase power common in the US.

CharIN is the body that oversees many of the current charger specs around the world. So they are who you need to deal with to standardize anything here. The upcoming Megawatt standard for larger vehicles is being hashed out there.

Frankly, given the amount of funding the government has and is pouring into the EV ecosystem, it’s really unacceptable there is no mandate of a standardized connector.

EU has already done this. US is being the US and doing half measures. The rulemaking for NEVI mandated that you must support CCS to get funding. Which is likely why Tesla is hurling this grenade into the mix now.

Something like this should not be as complicated as it has become.

Agree. Despite the engineering done with Tesla’s connector, the licensing terms the company put forward years ago required a devil’s bargin. So nobody was interested. But the window for Tesla to get others to adopt their connector is closing, so they’ve started opening things up.

If NA does go with Tesla’s connector it does create an interesting situation where South Korea becomes the only country using CCS1.

Getting to the point where I could see going EV making sense for me (and having two 240v 50A dedicated circuits wired in during construction for that and a kiln), looking at various possibilities, and probably making a decision within the next six months, this connector issue comes up regarding charging on the road. Not sure what to do. Wait longer?

As NACS seems to be standardizing on the same communication protocols as CSS, and CCS is still getting federal funding, things might not be horrible here. If Tesla was still pushing their custom implementation of “CCS over CAN” for communication, then things would not be so easy. The question is: are you willing to accept an adapter? My hope is that things get clarified a bit in the coming months so I’d keep your ears peeled. This is all about DC fast charging on the go though.

In my EV6, I keep a Tesla Mobile Charger and a Tesla Tap as my “emergency” charging kit. The Tesla Mobile charger is one of the cheapest portable chargers that supports different plugs for the various receptacles out there, and the Tesla Tap lets me use Tesla’s L2 chargers at places like Crater Lake. AC charging is already really easy to adapt. So whatever you install will work for years to come, honestly.

 

[Yoused]

So why not just have a standardized system?

USB-C

 

[Cmaier]

Frankly, given the amount of funding the government has and is pouring into the EV ecosystem, it’s really unacceptable there is no mandate of a standardized connector.

There is. If you’re a charger network and get US funding, it’s CCS for you. The problem is that CCS is sucky (both from a form factor and a convenience perspective), and this is like when the EU mandated that everything use micro-USB.