Electric Vehicles: General topics

[Eric]

Yeah it really helps that the gas powered versions look just like the EV versions (or the other way around if that helps). Folks want EVs that don't stand out (for the most part).

Or a truck that looks like a truck and not a stadium urinal.

 

[Nycturne]

Yikes!

https://insideevs.com/news/753673/vw-group-cariad-billions-losses-2024/

Pretty clear why VW is partnering with Rivian on vehicle software...

While cariad has a lot of problems, I’m not sure trying to turn a cost center into a revenue stream was a great idea in the first place. Especially when the only customers were going to be VAG…

 

[diamond.g]

While cariad has a lot of problems, I’m not sure trying to turn a cost center into a revenue stream was a great idea in the first place. Especially when the only customers were going to be VAG…

I think the idea was to have 1 unit do the vehicle software with everyone getting to put their veneer over top (think CarPlay 2.0). I think a lot of the problem is all the controllers they use makes it harder to have 1 unified software/controller platform made. Plus I assume they are still buying older infotainment hardware that is either lacking cpu or ram to be able to keep up with what they want to do.

I also think we overestimated how game changing OTA's would be. It really seems like most OEMs don't really bother doing much with them like Rivian/Tesla/Lucid have.

 

[rdrr]

I think the idea was to have 1 unit do the vehicle software with everyone getting to put their veneer over top (think CarPlay 2.0). I think a lot of the problem is all the controllers they use makes it harder to have 1 unified software/controller platform made. Plus I assume they are still buying older infotainment hardware that is either lacking cpu or ram to be able to keep up with what they want to do.

I also think we overestimated how game changing OTA's would be. It really seems like most OEMs don't really bother doing much with them like Rivian/Tesla/Lucid have.

I don't have much experience with any other EV infotainment system other than VWs. And I got to say from the groups on reddit, I am glad they are't doing frequent OTA updates like Tesla/Rivian/Lucid.

Some of the anecdotes are bad. Everything from bricking the software, to fixing one and then breaking other functions completely, and minor annoyances of deleting user profiles and settings.

Also there was another story out there that VW has also learned to bring back knobs for quick functions like changing temperature, or radio stations.

I am currently okay with some of the limitations and quirks the infotainment has due to never having driven a Tesla or Rivian. I just want a fix for the recall on the 2024 for the 12v battery on board charger with integrated DC/DC Converter. Apparently this is a big one and a lot of 2024s have had it where the 12v just dies and you are dead in the water.

 

[Nycturne]

I think the idea was to have 1 unit do the vehicle software with everyone getting to put their veneer over top (think CarPlay 2.0). I think a lot of the problem is all the controllers they use makes it harder to have 1 unified software/controller platform made. Plus I assume they are still buying older infotainment hardware that is either lacking cpu or ram to be able to keep up with what they want to do.

That is why cariad exists, yes, but my point is that measuring it like it should produce profit for VAG, while it’s basically an internal tooling/framework team, is very weird. I used the term cost center because it has a specific meaning that I think is relevant. Cariad does not directly produce anything that makes VAG money, but it absolutely adds value to other things VAG uses to make profit.

Now you can measure "profits" for a cost center by making other parts of your corporation/conglomerate move money around on the books, but it’s easy to either overvalue or undervalue the output of a cost center as there’s likely no equivalent market good you can use to judge the value with. So my chief complaint is that measuring cariad in terms of profit it generates is just… bad management. And of course, this performance means job cuts and (IMO) ditching it in the end, in part because they thought it’d be a self-supporting business unit rather than a cost center.

I also think we overestimated how game changing OTA's would be. It really seems like most OEMs don't really bother doing much with them like Rivian/Tesla/Lucid have.

There’s some ugly realities when it comes to how car computing is put together at the older manufacturers that makes it harder for them to shift. The ID.4 is built like most VW cars, where components and software are sourced from all over. So it’s not just an OTA, but it’s an OTA that applies patches to components they don’t control the software for. Cariad was the effort to bring all that in-house so they could get away from this problem and start issuing more frequent OTAs. I suspect one of the reasons it’s not working is that cariad is expected to deliver on the needs of the whole VAG at once, which can lead to fractured attention and distractions, especially if leadership is also distracted. It’s also possible VAG has a bit of a leadership issue all-up as they canned the guy that wanted Cariad in the first place (who was looking to Tesla as the model to emulate).

Hyundai hit a big reset button of sorts themselves here, and it has made things a bit easier for them. I do get OTAs, but Hyundai is also a bit more conservative. "Move slow, get it right" is still a mindset here rather than "Move fast, and break things". I’m fine with that because I don’t want my car changing every 6-12 months at the whims of design, and getting a couple updates a year is generally okay as long as the car itself is not buggy. No, I don’t get the new dashboard design the new 2025s are getting, but… eh?

 

[diamond.g]

I don't have much experience with any other EV infotainment system other than VWs. And I got to say from the groups on reddit, I am glad they are't doing frequent OTA updates like Tesla/Rivian/Lucid.

Some of the anecdotes are bad. Everything from bricking the software, to fixing one and then breaking other functions completely, and minor annoyances of deleting user profiles and settings.

Also there was another story out there that VW has also learned to bring back knobs for quick functions like changing temperature, or radio stations.

I am currently okay with some of the limitations and quirks the infotainment has due to never having driven a Tesla or Rivian. I just want a fix for the recall on the 2024 for the 12v battery on board charger with integrated DC/DC Converter. Apparently this is a big one and a lot of 2024s have had it where the 12v just dies and you are dead in the water.

is that a hardware problem?

That is why cariad exists, yes, but my point is that measuring it like it should produce profit for VAG, while it’s basically an internal tooling/framework team, is very weird. I used the term cost center because it has a specific meaning that I think is relevant. Cariad does not directly produce anything that makes VAG money, but it absolutely adds value to other things VAG uses to make profit.

Now you can measure "profits" for a cost center by making other parts of your corporation/conglomerate move money around on the books, but it’s easy to either overvalue or undervalue the output of a cost center as there’s likely no equivalent market good you can use to judge the value with. So my chief complaint is that measuring cariad in terms of profit it generates is just… bad management. And of course, this performance means job cuts and (IMO) ditching it in the end, in part because they thought it’d be a self-supporting business unit rather than a cost center.



There’s some ugly realities when it comes to how car computing is put together at the older manufacturers that makes it harder for them to shift. The ID.4 is built like most VW cars, where components and software are sourced from all over. So it’s not just an OTA, but it’s an OTA that applies patches to components they don’t control the software for. Cariad was the effort to bring all that in-house so they could get away from this problem and start issuing more frequent OTAs. I suspect one of the reasons it’s not working is that cariad is expected to deliver on the needs of the whole VAG at once, which can lead to fractured attention and distractions, especially if leadership is also distracted. It’s also possible VAG has a bit of a leadership issue all-up as they canned the guy that wanted Cariad in the first place (who was looking to Tesla as the model to emulate).

Hyundai hit a big reset button of sorts themselves here, and it has made things a bit easier for them. I do get OTAs, but Hyundai is also a bit more conservative. "Move slow, get it right" is still a mindset here rather than "Move fast, and break things". I’m fine with that because I don’t want my car changing every 6-12 months at the whims of design, and getting a couple updates a year is generally okay as long as the car itself is not buggy. No, I don’t get the new dashboard design the new 2025s are getting, but… eh?

yeah, why they thought it would turn a profit (unless the plan was to offer it to other OEMs) makes no sense.

 

[rdrr]

is that a hardware problem?

If you are asking about the 12v battery on board charger with integrated DC/DC Converter recall. Yes.

It is a board that is failing on the 2024 specifically, some have reported it after owning it only a week. Apparently there board will fail if there is too much condensation, and will cause a non-start condition. You have to jump the 12v batter to put it in neutral and tow it to your local VW dealer. They don't have a fix yet so they just put the same damn board in it until the redesigned board is available.

Hasn't happened to me (knock on wood), but I am now scared to plan any long trips because of this recall.

 

[diamond.g]

If you are asking about the 12v battery on board charger with integrated DC/DC Converter recall. Yes.

It is a board that is failing on the 2024 specifically, some have reported it after owning it only a week. Apparently there board will fail if there is too much condensation, and will cause a non-start condition. You have to jump the 12v batter to put it in neutral and tow it to your local VW dealer. They don't have a fix yet so they just put the same damn board in it until the redesigned board is available.

Hasn't happened to me (knock on wood), but I am now scared to plan any long trips because of this recall.

View attachment 34291

Yeah that stinks, kinda like the PCS failure, though yours seems to fail for an actual reason since it sounds like it is in the engine bay. Hopefully VW can get a fixed part out quickly. Though I am kind of surprised there is no insulating gel or foam on the boards.

 

[Citysnaps]

range is very impressive. pricey, though, for the size.

The execution looks like a nice improvement vs. their current crop of vehicles. I recall the prototype, they did a good job of bringing the design into a production version.

Mercedes needs this, I saw an article that BMW sold 20,000 more EVs (in '24) than Mercedes and Audi combined. We're not really "Mercedes people", just never had much interest in the brand.

I've decided that the Mercedes EV/hybrid is not for me and my wife. I've never owned a Mercedes, but from the few friends who've had one in the past, their opinions are all over the map regarding reliability (earlier ones). Also, its size is a little too small for comfort. I do like the styling, especially looking at it from the front (not including the LED array).

So, we're now back to strongly considering a Lexus ES 300h hybrid. For reliability, excellent tech, size, comfort, and most importantly, range. Its 13.2 gallon gas tank would take us 580/567 (hwy/city) miles (allegedly). Putting that in perspective, that's greater than the distance between San Francisco and Tijuana. We're planning on maybe a half dozen or so photo roadtrips during the summer, some in remote areas.

 

[DT]

Yeah it really helps that the gas powered versions look just like the EV versions (or the other way around if that helps). Folks want EVs that don't stand out (for the most part).

I'm really curious to see when the M division makes EV versions of their M series (not the M-Sport stuff they are currently doing). Though I am not excited about the pricing (the current M3 is like 2 times the cost of the Model 3 Performance, for not that much more performance once you throw some PS4S on the Tesla). AMG has been electrifying their stuff, but no pure EV since the SLS Electric Drive they only made 9 of. I hear that the Electric GT should be out this year sounds like they are shooting for the Taycan Turbo GT, no word on a proper C class version yet.

The iX is more of a bespoke platform, but they're headed back to more unification with all the various models (including the iX / X5). One of the design/engineering ideas of the NK / Neue Klasse platform is it's designed to be very drivetrain agnostic, vs. more of an ICE with EV added, so it should continue to provide that great economy-of-scale, but have less compromise. (regardless of how it's configured, BEV, PHEV, ICE/HEV).

All the info leaking out of various channels is the 4-motor M car being tested is it's a whole new level of performance for BMW, designed to be a seriously effective on track, insane straight line performance, while preserving the M "feel" - sounds pretty exciting! I'm sure it won't be cheap, but keep in mind, when you get an M-car, you're not just getting some performance stats, the entire ownership experience is orders of magnitude beyond owning an appliance.

 

[DT]

My 6th BMW - A 2025 i4 M50 in Portimao Blue

My 6th BMW - A 2025 i4 M50 in Portimao Blue

bmwi.bimmerpost.com

Person got a new i4 M50 to replace a new (as in "highland" )Tesla M3P, had the Tesla for only 6-1/2 months. They've owned BMWs several times, so winding up with another is not a surprise, that short term Tesla ownership, however, was pretty shocking, but also not a surprise, they wrote:

"The Tesla lasted all of about 6.5 months. It was a great little car in my opinion, but I just couldn’t come close to aligning with the brand given the current political climate. I had a lot of depreciation to eat in making the switch back to a BMW but at least I don’t feel self conscious in the car I drive anymore."

 

[Eric]

My 6th BMW - A 2025 i4 M50 in Portimao Blue

My 6th BMW - A 2025 i4 M50 in Portimao Blue

bmwi.bimmerpost.com

Person got a new i4 M50 to replace a new (as in "highland" )Tesla M3P, had the Tesla for only 6-1/2 months. They've owned BMWs several times, so winding up with another is not a surprise, that short term Tesla ownership, however, was pretty shocking, but also not a surprise, they wrote:

"The Tesla lasted all of about 6.5 months. It was a great little car in my opinion, but I just couldn’t come close to aligning with the brand given the current political climate. I had a lot of depreciation to eat in making the switch back to a BMW but at least I don’t feel self conscious in the car I drive anymore."

Very similar to my story, the negative equity is rolled up into my new i4. It is what it is, nobody knew just how horrible Elon Musk was going to be to the world.

 

[Cmaier]

My 6th BMW - A 2025 i4 M50 in Portimao Blue

My 6th BMW - A 2025 i4 M50 in Portimao Blue

bmwi.bimmerpost.com

Poster is a little too tolerant of Tesla. The thing about “i didn’t mind the turn signal buttons too much” while also saying the thing about “though I never was confident I pressed the correct button” just doesn’t track to me. The whole point of car controls is that you shouldn’t have to worry that you used the wrong one.

Person got a new i4 M50 to replace a new (as in "highland" )Tesla M3P, had the Tesla for only 6-1/2 months. They've owned BMWs several times, so winding up with another is not a surprise, that short term Tesla ownership, however, was pretty shocking, but also not a surprise, they wrote:

"The Tesla lasted all of about 6.5 months. It was a great little car in my opinion, but I just couldn’t come close to aligning with the brand given the current political climate. I had a lot of depreciation to eat in making the switch back to a BMW but at least I don’t feel self conscious in the car I drive anymore."

 

[DT]

Hyundai/Genesis officially onboard for Tesla SuCs, free NACS>>CCS adapters supposed to be in owner's hands before the end of June. Excellent!

I mean, if I really needed one before then, I'd be ordering the A2Z product.

More details:

Hyundai, Genesis EV owners are getting free NACS adapters for Tesla Superchargers

Starting today, all Hyundai and Genesis EV drivers are gaining access to over 20,000 Tesla Superchargers. That’s right, the IONIQ...

electrek.co

(Apparently there's a little backdoor for Kia's to charge too, prior to their official onboarding)

 

[Yoused]

I bought a NACS adapter the week they became available. Came with a little plastic prism to be shoved into a space between the DC pins because, design choices. I stuck the piece into place (because it does not affect ordinary plugs) but so far have yet to unwrap the adapter. It is mostly just for "emergency" use, and for future-proofing.

My car claims that it can draw 130kw, which would be awesome: it could go from totally flat to full charge, theoretically, in less than an hour (though, the top end would be slower than that). In the real world, I rarely see more than about 55kw. My home connection should be able to pump out more than 10kw, but the most I ever seem to get is a bit under 6.

Could just be the weather, though.

 

[DT]

It is mostly just for "emergency" use, and for future-proofing.

Oh totally. F*** tesla

If I can avoid using their services, I will, but it would be nice for - at the very least - a backup. Like this extra coverage from St. Aug to the ATL or Savannah:

Those will be usable "partner" NACS locations, and some nice extra options, especially along 75.

But even since our last trip to Atlanta, there's a bunch of new (non-Tesla) options, and apparently the Mercedes branded chargers at Buc-ees are super nice (plus a place with tons of supplies, nice clean restrooms, etc.)

This one is perfect for that trip:

And those locations all look roomy too:

Also, BMW and Rivian, living together in peace and harmony

 

[Nycturne]

Because I’m in the Hyundai/Genesis platform, Superchargers only get me ~90 kW. However, it still adds a bunch of stations along I-5 here that I can use for trips in case EA et al are having issues. And the adapter will be needed down the road, so I am not going to say no.

 

[Cmaier]

I’m going to keep the various adapters that came with my tesla when I trade it in for the new car. I figure in 3 years I’ll need them again. It’s like the lightning/usb-c stuff that will be haunting my life for a few more years.

 

[diamond.g]

Has anyone indicated when they will start switching their charging stations over to NACS yet?

 

[DT]

Has anyone indicated when they will start switching their charging stations over to NACS yet?

There's been a lot of announcements, just not sure who's actively in process.

EA is changing to new (apparently much better) hardware:



And apparently that will involve NACS availability as well for some existing CCS locations.

IONNA doing some neat stuff, I like how they're offering different charging experiences:

And this was interesting, a new EV9 picked up and it was NACS (the owner wasn't even aware):