Electric Vehicles: General topics

[Cmaier]

Rivian getting Apple Car Key! At least for Gen 2 R1 models, and R2, R3

Really love the R2, if this shows up with a tri-motor option, 350 mile or so range, this will be a serious contender for the MY27 vehicle super challenge It's on the smaller side for an SUV too, ~185" length, so would be very agile around town, parking, etc.

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ACP is still a bummer, there's a slick 3rd party option, but with this Car Key announcement, maybe they're rethinking their tech strategy.

There’s also the fact that Scout says they will have ACP and they are using the rivian software

 

[diamond.g]

Ya'll see the new Nissan Leaf? Seems like a competent update.

 

[Cmaier]

Ya'll see the new Nissan Leaf? Seems like a competent update.

yep.

 

[Yoused]

200+ miles of range for $36k puts it on a par with the base model Ariya Engage which is only $3~5 more. Leaf, I think, is a little more compact, but Ariya is way more comfortable. Of course, if the latest Leaf finally ditches Chademo for either CCS or NACS, that would definitely be a step forward.

 

[Cmaier]

200+ miles of range for $36k puts it on a par with the base model Ariya Engage which is only $3~5 more. Leaf, I think, is a little more compact, but Ariya is way more comfortable. Of course, if the latest Leaf finally ditches Chademo for either CCS or NACS, that would definitely be a step forward.

pretty sure it has NACS

 

[Nycturne]

pretty sure it has NACS

NACS for DCFC, J1772 for AC… it’s a bit of an odd beast.

 

[Yoused]

NACS for DCFC, J1772 for AC… it’s a bit of an odd beast.

Earlier models have J1772 for AC and Chademo for DCFC. So, still a bit of an odd beast, just differently odd.

 

[Nycturne]

Earlier models have J1772 for AC and Chademo for DCFC. So, still a bit of an odd beast, just differently odd.

Chademo never supported AC charging over the connector, and Japan is a J1772 + Chademo region, so it makes some sense to see those two next to each other.

What this says is that they are building with Japan in mind, but they are swapping out the Chademo for NACS in the US to save costs.

 

[DT]

The '26 Mercedes CLA did something weird like that too. They have new motor designs, a 2-speed transmission, a beautiful exterior design (no idea about their tech stack ...), OK, that's all terrific - but they have two charging ports. A J1772 (for AC) and an NACS (that as of the most recent information, only supports DCFC). So then, you want to use an NACS L2 charger and you ... still have to use an adapter[?]

(To be clear Mercedes is not, and will never be, on our consideration list)

 

[Yoused]

I imagine a change in the way charging is done, more the way everything else works. Some time soon, there will be a public charging network that is something like 20% cheaper than everyone else, but to use them, you have to supply your own cable. The chargers will have a NACS-type outlet, with extra side channels for pumping coolant through the cable, which you obtain and keep in your car. That way, potential vandalism and other damage to the public unit is greatly reduced. Over a decade, there is a gradual transition, until every new EV comes with a fixed charge cable in the car, that uses the car's own cooling system for the cable.

 

[Nycturne]

I imagine a change in the way charging is done, more the way everything else works. Some time soon, there will be a public charging network that is something like 20% cheaper than everyone else, but to use them, you have to supply your own cable. The chargers will have a NACS-type outlet, with extra side channels for pumping coolant through the cable, which you obtain and keep in your car. That way, potential vandalism and other damage to the public unit is greatly reduced. Over a decade, there is a gradual transition, until every new EV comes with a fixed charge cable in the car, that uses the car's own cooling system for the cable.

Coolant losses and filtering out build-up from random users' cables that sit unused for long periods of time (me) is gonna be fun to deal with. So challenges to be solved there.

Europe already employs BYC for AC charging, but still uses attached cables for DCFC. So if this is to show up, I'd probably look there or China first.

 

[Yoused]

Coolant losses and filtering out build-up from random users' cables that sit unused for long periods of time (me) is gonna be fun to deal with. So challenges to be solved there.

The simple solution for that is for the charging unit to drain the coolant on charge stop, or to use some sort of isolated loop (heat pipe type thing).

 

[Nycturne]

The simple solution for that is for the charging unit to drain the coolant on charge stop, or to use some sort of isolated loop (heat pipe type thing).

That was my assumption when I pointed out the coolant losses and gunk build-up. The problem is two-fold:

1) Getting all the coolant out is not feasible, so you will get small losses with each charge. Meaning you'll be topping up a reservoir, adding to the maintenance costs of the network operator vs a closed loop setup where losses will be slower. Might still be worth it, but labor costs could very well tip the scales here.
2) You have a coolant tube that switches between wet/dry, and so if you are like me and don't DCFC often, the empty tubes could very well be a good breeding ground for gunk that you don't want to suck up into your pedestal and/or reservoir during a charge. So looking at anti-mold and/or anti-microbials in the coolant and tubing.

Just more things that can go wrong, and maintenance that the user might not be aware of on their end in order to prolong the life of the cable. On top of the added costs of manufacturing a cable that includes quick disconnects for the fluids, tubing, etc.

Isolating two loops and having some sort of setup exchanging heat between the two would help avoid that, but could present challenges moving enough heat between the cable and the pedestal, simply because of the smaller surface area contacts in the plug offer you. Even if you pull heat through the large DC contacts as well.

I am not opposed to the idea. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's enabled more by higher voltage platforms that enable simpler cooling setups. Although even that is messy as you run a higher risk of arcing as you ramp that up.

 

[diamond.g]

The '26 Mercedes CLA did something weird like that too. They have new motor designs, a 2-speed transmission, a beautiful exterior design (no idea about their tech stack ...), OK, that's all terrific - but they have two charging ports. A J1772 (for AC) and an NACS (that as of the most recent information, only supports DCFC). So then, you want to use an NACS L2 charger and you ... still have to use an adapter[?]

(To be clear Mercedes is not, and will never be, on our consideration list)

I suspect because NACS requires additional hardware to split the AC/DC charging, so it is easier (read cheaper) to just add another plug/port that splits AC/DC charging. Probably a side effect of CCS not using the same power pins for AC/DC.

 

[Yoused]

Both setups have the 3 signal pins that tell the car what is being deliverered. NACS requires the onboard charge unit to determine whether the power input is going to be LV or MV AC or HV DC. The logic and switching required to implement NACS seems pretty trivial. I am not sure how well onboard chargers could handle low-A inputs, but, if low-A can be supported, it could pave the way for alternative charging schemes (e.g., a solar or wind input that is un-inverted DC, like if you park at a campsite and charge off-the-grid).

 

[Nycturne]

Considering it looks like the Mercedes US plant exports much of what it makes, I wonder if it's similar to the Leaf of just trying to keep differences between regions small/cheap. At least until they are willing/ready to have the onboard charge unit handle both NACS and CCS.