FBI executed search warrant at Mar-a-Lago

bwinter88 said:
It's basically the same thing, except Trump lied about declassifying highly sensitive nuclear secrets and dirt on his enemies and then hid them in his personal residence while criminally obstructing the FBI in their attempts to recover them.

But other than the massive criminal intent, totally the same thing.
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All the words, understanding each one… so hard… giving up…
 
Herdfan said:
Felony you say............ Hmmmmmmmm............

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Ignoring for a second, that this kind of thing still pisses me off, it's unlikely that Trump would have been served a warrant had he actually acted in good faith.

The Trump documents saga emerged in a different way than the Biden situation, however.

According to Biden’s attorneys, they turned over the classified materials and notified NARA as soon as they were discovered. With Trump, NARA realized that key records were missing, and NARA officials haggled with Trump’s team over the return of government documents.

Trump eventually gave 15 boxes of materials back to NARA. But federal investigators later came to correctly suspect that he was still holding onto dozens of additional classified files. So, DOJ prosecutors secured a grand jury subpoena and later got a judge’s permission to search Mar-a-Lago, to find the documents.
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thekev said:
Ignoring for a second, that this kind of thing still pisses me off, it's unlikely that Trump would have been served a warrant had he actually acted in good faith.
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There’s no question. While democrats are saying Trump should be treated like anyone else, it’s already clear he wasn’t and has not been.

That said, it seems rational the first thing one would do if they were innocent or not ill-intended is to return the documents. Trump was given ample opportunity and still had documents after requests, a subpoena and two searches of properties (that we know of).

The Biden docs were found in a locked storage closet, and none were previously requested. They were returned upon discovery. Trump could have given the documents up and this may have been a one-day, boring story about Trump gathering some stuff and returning it. That is what happened and most people didn’t care until the FBI raid, even though it was long-known and suspected Trump had withheld documents from the Archives and had probably taken some home.

The documents ending up somewhere is one thing, and it should always be investigated when sensitive government property ends up missing and/or where it doesn’t belong. Biden’s situation is no different.

But with Trump, as is often the case, it’s everything else after the initial issue that’s more of the problem.
 
You all can spin this however you want, but if it is a felony to possess these records, then it is a felony no matter who or how they did it.

Now if you want to add obstruction to Trump, that's fine.

Biden has created a mess for the prosecution. Like Obama reportedly said, "Don't underestimate Joe's ability to #!@% things up".
 
My question is why was trump so determined to hold on to the many highly classified documents he had in possession?

Is it because he's a devout student of history and those documents help fill in missing gaps of his understanding of such history?

Or is it because of the nature of the documents they had some kind of great value...to someone.
 
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Herdfan said:
You all can spin this however you want, but if it is a felony to possess these records, then it is a felony no matter who or how they did it.

Now if you want to add obstruction to Trump, that's fine.

Biden has created a mess for the prosecution. Like Obama reportedly said, "Don't underestimate Joe's ability to #!@% things up".
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If anything this makes it worse for Trump. He would for sure have gotten away with it if it had been handled like this incident.

Could you elaborate on how Biden has created a mess for the prosecution?
 
Pumbaa said:
If anything this makes it worse for Trump. He would for sure have gotten away with it if it had been handled like this incident.

Could you elaborate on how Biden has created a mess for the prosecution?
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Because if they indict Trump for possession and not Biden, they will look biased.

And don't think for one minute if Trump is indicted for possession, he won't do whatever he can to rile up his supporters over Biden not being indicted for the same thing.
 
Herdfan said:
And don't think for one minute if Trump is indicted for possession, he won't do whatever he can to rile up his supporters over Biden not being indicted for the same thing.
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That's OK, and expected - I'm not worried about that. I'm fine with any investigation the DOJ needs to pursue.

I just want to see trump be held accountable for the many crimes he'll likely be indicted for, demonstrating that he's not above the law.
 
Herdfan said:
Because if they indict Trump for possession and not Biden, they will look biased.

And don't think for one minute if Trump is indicted for possession, he won't do whatever he can to rile up his supporters over Biden not being indicted for the same thing.
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Biden almost certainly won't be indicted, and Trump almost certainly will—and it won't be biased.

For the same reason Hilary wasn't indicted for having classified emails on her server, and why more of Trump's cronies weren't indicted from the Mueller report, the DOJ has wide latitude to choose who to indict, and it pivots on criminal intent.

A few papers forgotten in a locked closet in an old office? A jury will see that for what it is, case dismissed or a slap on the wrist. There's no point in an indictment in that case.

Good luck convincing a jury that taking nuclear secrets and dirt on your enemies and stashing them under your bed at Mar-a-lago was just an oopsie.
 
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Of course the BS Bucket Brigade wades in. Setting up scenarios that are a figment of their imagination. The difference between Biden and Mango is stark. There is no indication that Biden willingly and maliciously took the documents. His attorneys immediately informed the National Archives of the discovery and had the docs sent to them the very next day. As opposed the twice impeached liar and crook willingly and intentionally taking documents to insecure areas of his personal space. Then having the National Archives plead with him several times to have them returned over several months. Then lied about returning all documents months later. Then lied again when they said okay, here's all of the remaining the documents that we previously said was returned. Then lied once again, saying he declassified the documents via brain waves, so they don't have to be returned. And there is tons of evidence that documents were mishandled and possibly missing. Yep, totally the same situation! :unsure:

Mango obstructed the return of stolen documents. Lied to the National Archives and courts. He should face the consequences.
 
Herdfan said:
Because if they indict Trump for possession and not Biden, they will look biased.

And don't think for one minute if Trump is indicted for possession, he won't do whatever he can to rile up his supporters over Biden not being indicted for the same thing.
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It sure looks like unawareness on Biden's part. That matters. And as others have pointed out, the situation was remedied immediately when discovery was made. That matters too.

It's illegal to kill a pedestrian with a car, but when someone wearing all dark clothing pops out onto the driving lane at night and ends up dead, that driver is not gong to be indicted for first degree murder and may not even end up charged at all. Circumstances and intent are always factors.

I'm not saying that "bias" --race, class, politics-- can't be a factor also. Otherwise, for instance, the juvie detention centers would have a far higher percentage of shoplifters who are wealthy white teens having taken a lipstick or a piece of costume jewelry for kicks or on a dare.

But to try to claim political bias in order to leverage the discovery of a handful of classified papers in Biden's old office into an offense even remotely comparable to the saga of Trump's legal battles to retain the papers he should not have possessed after exiting the presidency? That is an exercise in futility. In fact it will read like Republican political bias if the Rs decide to try to convert this into "a thing" during the 118th term.

I grant you it doesn't mean the Rs won't try to pursue it anyway. After all they tried to repeal the ACA 70 times because it was easy to bring that resolution to the floor again and get some press when it was time to raise funds at quarter-end...
 
lizkat said:
It sure looks like unawareness on Biden's part. That matters. And as others have pointed out, the situation was remedied immediately when discovery was made. That matters too.
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If I am unaware that I am 15 mph over the speed limit, does that get me off?
 
Herdfan said:
Because if they indict Trump for possession and not Biden, they will look biased.
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And since you can’t indict a sitting president, you can’t indict Trump either out of fear of looking biased? Wonderful legal strategy! 😂

Herdfan said:
And don't think for one minute if Trump is indicted for possession, he won't do whatever he can to rile up his supporters over Biden not being indicted for the same thing.
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Don’t think for a moment that he won’t do whatever he can to rile up his supporters anyway, so let’s not indict him at all, right?
 
Herdfan said:
You all can spin this however you want, but if it is a felony to possess these records, then it is a felony no matter who or how they did it.

Now if you want to add obstruction to Trump, that's fine.

Biden has created a mess for the prosecution. Like Obama reportedly said, "Don't underestimate Joe's ability to #!@% things up".
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I’m fine with that, but you and I both know it’s not as simple as “they’re taken, illegal”. Otherwise, Trump could have cooperated and this would probably have been a non-story. Indeed, the story went quiet for the year Trump was supposedly “cooperating” with the archives, and only got noisy again after he had ignored requests and subpoenas.

Also, there’s nothing to spin: These were found in a locked storage closet from an office. Trump’s were found in his desk drawers at his home.

However, I’d there’s flagrant crimes committed, I really don’t care who’s prosecuted, or when. If the Archives or the DoJ determine these were sensitive and should never have been removed from wherever they were, fine. It is what it is.

It seems everyone walks backwards from Trump. Trump commits murder, Biden knocks a guy out, we say “See! They’re all violent!” and Trump gets off for doing the more blatant, corrupt act of the two.

That said, it is illegal afaik to have these things. Biden will have these docs investigated, just as Trump is and just as Hillary’s email server was investigated.

Put it this way; if what Biden did was illegal, that would just make me all the more nervous if I was Trump, because he committed a bunch of crimes on top of the original sin.
 

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