iOS 18 changes you’d like

[Andropov]

They are already inconsistent with iOS. They also to the very non-Apple thing where you can toggle stage manager on or off. So I say replace stage manager with “pro interface.” Toggle it on and you get floating windows, persistent workspaces (like Mac’s multiple desktops) where apps don’t die in the background and where your “show me everything” interface only shows apps that are running, and allows you to easily drag them between workspaces.

Keep it toggled off by default for people who prefer the “iOS” way of doing things.

Yeah I agree it would make sense for windows in Stage Manager to keep their respective apps alive until removed. But I hope they come up with a better way to switch between the experiences than a toggle. It's very non-Apple because it's a very inelegant way of doing it (not that I can think of anything better). Though there's a couple affordances they could take from macOS: app indicators in the dock (in Stage Manager), hovering the mouse over the bottom of the screen to show the dock (it's nuts that Stage Manager doesn't get this right), or even maybe the semaphore to quit apps (when paired to a trackpad). Idk. SwiftUI could offer trivial ways of adapting to different input methods, don't know why they don't exploit it.

And when paired with an external display without touch support, I think iPadOS apps should use macOS-like multitasking AND macOS-like UI elements and scaling. It doesn't make sense to have huge UI elements and touch targets on a non-touch display controlled with a trackpad. Again, this should be relatively straightforward to implement at least for SwiftUI apps.

This is where I come back to maybe different kinds of interfaces for different kinds of iPads ... Pro interfaces for Pro models and maybe Airs and more simple, iOS-like interfaces, for non-Pro/Air iPads. I dunno maybe a bad idea - basically bifurcate the iPad line to more macOS-like Pro and revert the others to iOS but with a bigger screen.

IMHO enforcing a different kind of interface for certain iPads is not a good idea. I mainly use my iPad Pro one app at a time, and to me Split View + SlideOver works better than Stage Manager. I think it depends on what you use your iPad for.

 

[dada_dave]

Yeah I agree it would make sense for windows in Stage Manager to keep their respective apps alive until removed. But I hope they come up with a better way to switch between the experiences than a toggle. It's very non-Apple because it's a very inelegant way of doing it (not that I can think of anything better). Though there's a couple affordances they could take from macOS: app indicators in the dock (in Stage Manager), hovering the mouse over the bottom of the screen to show the dock (it's nuts that Stage Manager doesn't get this right), or even maybe the semaphore to quit apps (when paired to a trackpad). Idk. SwiftUI could offer trivial ways of adapting to different input methods, don't know why they don't exploit it.

And when paired with an external display without touch support, I think iPadOS apps should use macOS-like multitasking AND macOS-like UI elements and scaling. It doesn't make sense to have huge UI elements and touch targets on a non-touch display controlled with a trackpad. Again, this should be relatively straightforward to implement at least for SwiftUI apps.


IMHO enforcing a different kind of interface for certain iPads is not a good idea. I mainly use my iPad Pro one app at a time, and to me Split View + SlideOver works better than Stage Manager. I think it depends on what you use your iPad for.

Aye I might've edited my post before you responded but I added:

Because there are two kinds of iPad users and they want and need very different things.

And I should add that the "Pro" interface need not be stage manager - freed of having to conform to iOS it could be very different - a touch centric interface that isn't trying to thread the needle of needing to be "iOS-like" while giving something of more advanced window management could be quite different or even just an evolution of stage manager that somehow fixes its flaws. And again there could be multiple options like how on macOS we can go full screen or windowed or even stage manager. But those kinds of options aren't what someone who wants a regular iPad or iPad mini likely wants or needs. Similar really good keyboard and mouse support for the iPad Pro/Air is something that would just overcomplicate the regular iPad models. Keep them simple, content consumption and very light productivity models - basically larger phones which are nicer to use but not quite as portable in the pocket. Start merging the Pro/Air models with macOS with all the suggestions you guys are putting forwards but keep the regular iPads with A series chips simple. Not every iPad needs these features or capabilities and adding them might make the experience worse for those who choose the iPad for different reasons than advanced productivity.

 

[Herdfan]

I’m pretty happy with ios, though i wouldn’t turn down the ability to position home screen icons more freely,

A feature Android has had for years.

 

[Andropov]

Aye I might've edited my post before you responded but I added:



And I should add that the "Pro" interface need not be stage manager - freed of having to conform to iOS it could be very different - a touch centric interface that isn't trying to thread the needle of needing to be "iOS-like" while giving something of more advanced window management could be quite different or even just an evolution of stage manager that somehow fixes its flaws. And again there could be multiple options like how on macOS we can go full screen or windowed or even stage manager. But those kinds of options aren't what someone who wants a regular iPad or iPad mini likely wants or needs. Similar really good keyboard and mouse support for the iPad Pro/Air is something that would just overcomplicate the regular iPad models. Keep them simple, content consumption and very light productivity models - basically larger phones which are nicer to use but not quite as portable in the pocket. Start merging the Pro/Air models with macOS with all the suggestions you guys are putting forwards but keep the regular iPads with A series chips simple. Not every iPad needs these features or capabilities and adding them might make the experience worse for those who choose the iPad for different reasons than advanced productivity.

Yeah not disagreeing with the idea that two different multitasking experiences could be needed, just that I don’t think it maps very well with the hardware product tiers.

I’d pick a Pro for the OLED display and extra CPU/RAM, which is useful for me when using Procreate. But since when drawing or taking notes I use only one app at a time (and I believe this is common for users who use the iPad mostly for drawing or taking notes) I prefer Split View to a fully free windowing system. I don’t even have a keyboard for my iPad*

This is completely different to users who mostly use the iPad for Word/Excel/Safari… this could benefit more from improved multitasking. For drawing, I just want the app window to be as big as possible

*I do, but I don’t use it.

 

[Cmaier]

A feature Android has had for years.

sure, but it comes with all the other terrible android things. Nobody is going to switch from ios to that toxic cesspool in order to be able to move their homescreen icons more freely.

 

[Eric]

sure, but it comes with all the other terrible android things. Nobody is going to switch from ios to that toxic cesspool in order to be able to move their homescreen icons more freely.

I recall setting up an Android device for a family member and it was like stepping back in time, talk about a poorly designed/bloatware loaded convoluted piece of crap. They can have their "features" I'll take Apple's well controlled app store and modern design/controls any day over that turd.

 

[jbailey]

For real. none of this “get an entitlement and stay in the background for awhile, maybe, until the OS decides to kill the app” stuff.

There needs to be a new section in Privacy & Security that is like Location Services. Full Background Services with user controlled settings for never/this time/always.

Stage manager is great imho. Even better on the mac. works really well in situations where you have multiple things going on the background and several tasks involve GROUPS of windows rather than one window per task. You can group windows together so switching from one multi-app task to another is a case of a single click.

I tried Stage Manager for several months on my Mac. It seemed like it might be useful when using only the 13" internal display. I gave it a real shot but I'm back to traditional Mac windowing now. SM works for some things but overall it is just too inflexible for me to use for everything even on a small screen. For grouping apps, Mission Control Spaces seems to be good enough for me.

 

[dada_dave]

Yeah not disagreeing with the idea that two different multitasking experiences could be needed, just that I don’t think it maps very well with the hardware product tiers.

I’d pick a Pro for the OLED display and extra CPU/RAM, which is useful for me when using Procreate. But since when drawing or taking notes I use only one app at a time (and I believe this is common for users who use the iPad mostly for drawing or taking notes) I prefer Split View to a fully free windowing system. I don’t even have a keyboard for my iPad*

This is completely different to users who mostly use the iPad for Word/Excel/Safari… this could benefit more from improved multitasking. For drawing, I just want the app window to be as big as possible

*I do, but I don’t use it.

My idea, and I’m not suggesting for a moment that Apple will actually go this way, is not take away anything from someone who buys the Pro model but rather not to add anything to the non Pro models.

After all that kind of user interface exists on Mac’s too: full screen mode with snap positions and spaces. So again someone who uses full screen apps one at a time would continue to have that interface in a Pro iPad. It’s just that the lower end iPads would only have that classic iOS/minimal iPadOS interface. In my opinion that would free the pro iPad to be more experimental.

 

[Cmaier]

There needs to be a new section in Privacy & Security that is like Location Services. Full Background Services with user controlled settings for never/this time/always.

I tried Stage Manager for several months on my Mac. It seemed like it might be useful when using only the 13" internal display. I gave it a real shot but I'm back to traditional Mac windowing now. SM works for some things but overall it is just too inflexible for me to use for everything even on a small screen. For grouping apps, Mission Control Spaces seems to be good enough for me.

me too. Multiple spaces, and cmd-arrow between them, works great.

 

[Andropov]

My idea, and I’m not suggesting for a moment that Apple will actually go this way, is not take away anything from someone who buys the Pro model but rather not to add anything to the non Pro models.

After all that kind of user interface exists on Mac’s too: full screen mode with snap positions and spaces. So again someone who uses full screen apps one at a time would continue to have that interface in a Pro iPad. It’s just that the lower end iPads would only have that classic iOS/minimal iPadOS interface. In my opinion that would free the pro iPad to be more experimental.

One minor quibble I have with Split View and Slide Over on iPadOS (that is never an issue in macOS as I don't have portrait monitors) is that it's kind of ridiculously long in portrait mode. Like, sometimes when drawing I'd like to have tiny Safari window as a reference, and it works well on landscape... but on portrait mode it coves one third of the screen and it's unusable. I wish the Slide Over window height was resizable. IDK. It's hard to make a good windowing system for tablets.

 

[Cmaier]

One minor quibble I have with Split View and Slide Over on iPadOS (that is never an issue in macOS as I don't have portrait monitors) is that it's kind of ridiculously long in portrait mode. Like, sometimes when drawing I'd like to have tiny Safari window as a reference, and it works well on landscape... but on portrait mode it coves one third of the screen and it's unusable. I wish the Slide Over window height was resizable. IDK. It's hard to make a good windowing system for tablets.

I dunno, something‘s gotta be better than what they’ve got, even in stage manager (which lets you resize windows sort of at will, but the resizing corner is always on the wrong side from where you want it, and you can’t move windows to the actual edges of the screen, etc.). I mean, maybe tap and hold with two fingers spread diagonally until window borders appear. Drag any edge or corner to desired size, and tap again with two spread fingers to exit resizing mode. Something. I’m not a UX designer, but somewhere there has to be a better idea than what we’ve got. Otherwise just give me full mac-like window controls when I’m hooked to a pointing device, and get out of my way you stupid operating system.

 

[Artemis]

I dunno, something‘s gotta be better than what they’ve got, even in stage manager (which lets you resize windows sort of at will, but the resizing corner is always on the wrong side from where you want it, and you can’t move windows to the actual edges of the screen, etc.). I mean, maybe tap and hold with two fingers spread diagonally until window borders appear. Drag any edge or corner to desired size, and tap again with two spread fingers to exit resizing mode. Something. I’m not a UX designer, but somewhere there has to be a better idea than what we’ve got. Otherwise just give me full mac-like window controls when I’m hooked to a pointing device, and get out of my way you stupid operating system.

I’ve been thinking, and while I don’t want Macos on the iPad, there has got to be something better than the current system (for iPad). Like, what about a touch-optimized version of terminal? Stuff like that. I’d like to be able to develop on iPad for one thing.

 

[Artemis]

x.com

x.com

Huawei’s OS is going to get interesting imo

 

[Yoused]

I’d like to be able to develop on iPad for one thing.

They are just too worried about … something something … when I suspect a lot of coders would be happy to do their work on an iPad. I was trying to envision a tool that would let you work in a sort of flow-chart format, with tap-to-expand labels to sections of code and shortcuts that would simplify working on the iPad, while still generating standard source files.

 

[throAU]

me too. Multiple spaces, and cmd-arrow between them, works great.

Spaces works to an extent but I use them as well. Without stage manager I end up with too many spaces and flicking left and right through them takes time to find the particular space.

 

[Artemis]

They are just too worried about … something something … when I suspect a lot of coders would be happy to do their work on an iPad. I was trying to envision a tool that would let you work in a sort of flow-chart format, with tap-to-expand labels to sections of code and shortcuts that would simplify working on the iPad, while still generating standard source files.

Yeah, totally agree. It’s not like the iPad lacks the power here.

Really all you need is root access and some kind of browsing interface like you say for a new terminal + editor/IDE, which Apple absolutely has the resources to pull off. After that, wholla.

But really until that and better desktop monitor support they’re hampering it.

That said, I don’t support MacOS on the iPad. Bad idea. Just make iPadOS more capable

 

[Cmaier]

Yeah, totally agree. It’s not like the iPad lacks the power here.

Really all you need is root access and some kind of browsing interface like you say for a new terminal + editor/IDE, which Apple absolutely has the resources to pull off. After that, wholla.

But really until that and better desktop monitor support they’re hampering it.

That said, I don’t support MacOS on the iPad. Bad idea. Just make iPadOS more capable

having written a lot of ios apps, i’d be quite happy with a simplified xcode (without all the massive cruft from the desktop version). But i also need a real, reliable, files.app/finder/whatever they want to call it, with the ability to work with/move around/share/etc etc files as easily as on mac. Because every application i’ve written requires creating/working with/editing audio, video, text, sql, etc. files. All sorts of stuff that combines together into an app. I can’t imagine doing that on an iPad when i am forced to use files.app as my interface to organize and manipulate these things,

Of course, some of my apps have a combination of objective c/swift/swiftui/javascript, and imagine xcode for ipados might be limited to just swift/swiftui, but who knows.

 

[Artemis]

having written a lot of ios apps, i’d be quite happy with a simplified xcode (without all the massive cruft from the desktop version). But i also need a real, reliable, files.app/finder/whatever they want to call it, with the ability to work with/move around/share/etc etc files as easily as on mac. Because every application i’ve written requires creating/working with/editing audio, video, text, sql, etc. files. All sorts of stuff that combines together into an app. I can’t imagine doing that on an iPad when i am forced to use files.app as my interface to organize and manipulate these things,

Of course, some of my apps have a combination of objective c/swift/swiftui/javascript, and imagine xcode for ipados might be limited to just swift/swiftui, but who knows.

Yes absolutely. Even a simplified version would be huge.

And yeah, files is really dragging behind. What do you have in mind for some improvements? Frankly just the ability to text enter my paths would be huge.

 

[Cmaier]

Yes absolutely. Even a simplified version would be huge.

And yeah, files is really dragging behind. What do you have in mind for some improvements? Frankly just the ability to text enter my paths would be huge.

I don’t even know where to begin. There are so many problems with it - I would strongly suggest they just adopt finder and be done with it. What they’ve got now is as complicated as finder, but less powerful and in many cases more difficult to use.

 

[Artemis]

I don’t even know where to begin. There are so many problems with it - I would strongly suggest they just adopt finder and be done with it. What they’ve got now is as complicated as finder, but less powerful and in many cases more difficult to use.

Yeah just taking finder for touch-sensitive targets is the simplest way to go.