Police shootings are still happening

Gutwrench said:
LE is not the general public. Your conclusion is flawed and absurd.
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No, my conclusion is absolutely correct, which is: cops are more likely to get away with killing people even when prosecutors consider the evidence strong enough to press charges.
The only thing we can argue about is whether this differential is justified. Your conclusion is lazy.

The system is full of conflict of interest, and we rely a lot on personal testimony in the 21st century. All very very problematic, even if most cops are super upstanding citizens.
 
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PearsonX said:
No, my conclusion is absolutely correct, which is: cops are more likely to get away with killing people even when prosecutors consider the evidence strong enough to press charges.
The only thing we can argue about is whether this differential is justified. Your conclusion is lazy.
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The general public doesn’t make traffic stops, get sent to ‘man with a gun‘ calls, in progress robberies, homicides, etc.. It‘s absurd because your premise is a false equivalency.
 
Gutwrench said:
The general public doesn’t make traffic stops, get sent to ‘man with a gun‘ calls, in progress robberies, homicides, etc.. It‘s absurd because of the false equivalency.
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But is it really, when I'm talking about cases which were pre-filtered by prosecutors?
 
If the cop was really afraid for his life because of a car coming at him, does he not understand the basic laws of physics? Shooting a car that is coming at you won’t stop it. You’d best get out of the way. Also in the video, he saw the car was veering away and he turned as the car passed him and he kept shooting. It’s gonna be a hard sell that this shooting was justified.
 
Gutwrench said:
full stop.
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No. I don’t agree that you can just throw away everything I said after the first sentence. Also, there is a difference between your initial statement that race isn‘t a factor and mine that we don’t know whether or not it was the determining factor. Your statement automatically assumes that it is not a factor; I don’t think that’s reasonable considering the statistics regarding police treatment of black people.
 
SuperMatt said:
No. I don’t agree that you can just throw away everything I said after the first sentence. Also, there is a difference between your initial statement that race isn‘t a factor and mine that we don’t know whether or not it was the determining factor. Your statement automatically assumes that it is not a factor; I don’t think that’s reasonable considering the statistics regarding police treatment of black people.
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I'd approach this issue differently. Let's assume that race isn't an issue. The counterargument to police shooting blacks disproportionately is that if you adjust for violent crime rates in the populations the statistical difference disappears. Which is generally true if you only look at shootings, but if you add non-lethal device use like tasers, then even if you adjust for crime rate per zip code, black men will still be much more likely to be tased.

I'd also add that implicit bias is not a fixed thing, most normal people (naturally including cops) have it and work hard to overcome it. But fatigue makes it more prominent. Or if people get pissed off in prior shifts. These things were described in healthcare too, so in its own it's not an issue restricted to police. Difference is, cops "get sent to ‘man with a gun‘ calls, in progress robberies, homicides, etc..".

My concern is that police violence had been under addressed because it disproportionately affects blacks.
You don't need racist police for an issue like this to emerge as something exacerbated due to society's approach to blacks.
 
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Gutwrench said:
Did you read it?
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I did read it. It is only seven pages there, and heavily redacted. The issue they raise relates primarily to the investigative aspect of police work. But, recent events provide some evidence that the police on the street act favorably toward the far white types (example). The protests have highlighted real problems with police partiality, and some parts around the country have shown approval for independent oversight of police.
 
Yoused said:
I did read it. It is only seven pages there, and heavily redacted. The issue they raise relates primarily to the investigative aspect of police work. But, recent events provide some evidence that the police on the street act favorably toward the far white types (example). The protests have highlighted real problems with police partiality, and some parts around the country have shown approval for independent oversight of police.
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We agree, but also look at this from a viewpoint of cops:
  • After this summer they feel under appreciated.
  • They will be nicer to people who (superficially) appreciate them.
The are just human, so the most realistic thing is to expect human level things from them. My problem is that when it comes to hearsay, we consider them morally supreme beings and accept the lack of adequate oversight and video documentation of the use of lethal force (my primary conclusion from Breonna Taylor's killing).
 
Do you guys know who is the prime enemy of officers this year? COVID! It killed >2x officers we lost to violence.
 
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PearsonX said:
This would be a fantastic defense in a medical malpractice lawsuit.
I poke the aorta because we do a lot of stressful things:D

This was a nice conversation until it lasted.
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PearsonX said:
BTW, this attitude is exactly why police malpractice is not addressed.
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That’s almost a fair comparison.

Malpractice is providing insufficient care based on contemporary medical standards. It can be civil or criminal in nature.

If I cut someone open and kill them I’m going to jail.
A doctor usually doesn’t.

it all boils down to the facts in each specific case.
See how that works?
 
Yoused said:
I did read it. It is only seven pages there, and heavily redacted. The issue they raise relates primarily to the investigative aspect of police work. But, recent events provide some evidence that the police on the street act favorably toward the far white types (example). The protests have highlighted real problems with police partiality, and some parts around the country have shown approval for independent oversight of police.
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Quote something from it that you found informative and shocking.
 
SuperMatt said:
No. I don’t agree that you can just throw away everything I said after the first sentence. Also, there is a difference between your initial statement that race isn‘t a factor and mine that we don’t know whether or not it was the determining factor. Your statement automatically assumes that it is not a factor; I don’t think that’s reasonable considering the statistics regarding police treatment of black people.
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Yes it does. Until specific and articulable facts are produced to lead a reasonable and prudent person to believe race was involved in the action, it isn’t race related. I understand sloppy reasoning is commonplace on message boards but that isn’t how it works in reality.
 
Gutwrench said:
Yes it does. Until specific and articulable facts are produced to lead a reasonable and prudent person to believe race was involved in the action, it isn’t race related. I understand sloppy reasoning is commonplace on message boards but that isn’t how it works in reality.
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Yes, it is quite commonplace. We do not know. One cannot assume it is or isn’t with the small amount of information available at this time. You choose to assume race is not a factor until information comes out showing that it is. I am saying it’s an unknown.
 
Gutwrench said:
That’s almost a fair comparison.

Malpractice is providing insufficient care based on contemporary medical standards. It can be civil or criminal in nature.

If I cut someone open and kill them I’m going to jail.
A doctor usually doesn’t.

it all boils down to the facts in each specific case.
See how that works?
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Glad we found a reference point. So let’s elaborate here:
1) if I cut someone open, I’d go to jail too because I’m not a surgeon. If I nick the aorta During her Torah synthesis a thoracentesis (lol), or a spinal tap, It wouldn’t be “ let’s look at each case individually“
2) There is a concept called Culture of safety, and academic medicine programs incorporate Periodic mortality and morbidity Conferences where we do a root cause analysis on potential medical errors, near misses, etc. Stochastic errors happen, but recurrent deterministic errors are absolutely unacceptable. I would love to hear about what police does on this end.
3) If I give a presentation even for residents I have to disclose my conflicts of interest. This has been an issue in Medicine, and it’s been aggressively addressed, as I said above the COI between cops and prosecutors Is clear as daylight, imagine if malpractice lawyers depended on physician referrals:D Do you think this issue should not be addressed to achieve adequate police oversight? And because this is there, I feel pretty comfortable comparing prosecuted cases to the general population.
 
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SuperMatt said:
Yes, it is quite commonplace. We do not know. One cannot assume it is or isn’t with the small amount of information available at this time. You choose to assume race is not a factor until information comes out showing that it is. I am saying it’s an unknown.
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One could say it was gender related as well...until proven otherwise.
 

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