Police shootings are still happening

[Gutwrench]

Glad we found a reference point. So let’s elaborate here:
1) if I cut someone open, I’d go to jail too because I’m not a surgeon. If I nick the aorta During her Torah synthesis a thoracentesis (lol), or a spinal tap, It wouldn’t be “ let’s look at each case individually“
2) There is a concept called Culture of safety, and academic medicine programs incorporate Periodic mortality and morbidity Conferences where we do a root cause analysis on potential medical errors, near misses, etc. Stochastic errors happen, but recurrent deterministic errors are absolutely unacceptable. I would love to hear about what police does on this end.
3) If I give a presentation even for residents I have to disclose my conflicts of interest. This has been an issue in Medicine, and it’s been aggressively addressed, as I said above the COI between cops and prosecutors Is clear as daylight, imagine if malpractice lawyers depended on physician referrals Do you think this issue should not be addressed to achieve adequate police oversight? And because this is there, I feel pretty comfortable comparing prosecuted cases to the general population.

This is going afar and unnecessarily complicated. I understood your original point and explained why I feel your premise is flawed. I’m fine with differing opinions.

 

[User.45]

This is going afar and unnecessarily complicated. I understood your original point and explained why I feel your premise is flawed. I’m fine with differing opinions.

Sure.
To summarize it: as long as prosecutors depend on cops for indictments I consider the very high threshold for prosecuting cops a strong enough compensatory factor to expect conviction rates similar to the gen pop.
Your response: absurd! High-risk job. Issue fixed.

 

[iMi]

Gut wrenching video, but based on what I've seen, the use of force in this case was likely justified. Was it necessary? No. All the officer had to do is step to the side and let them pass. But let's assume the suspect drove off and ran over a child who died as a result, would the police be held liable for not using whatever means necessary to stop the vehicle?

Did race play a factor in this case? Maybe. Statistically speaking you are far more likely to be shot and killed by police if you are black. That's a fact. There is another way race plays a role. Being a black man means having a very different perception of police, which likely impacts your fight or flight response. Had this been a white man, who has had largely positive experience with police, he may have stopped the vehicle and complied. That's what many seem to not understand. The kid should have known better is an ignorant way to approach the problem.

Police work is dangerous and we have to be objective when assessing each situation. It's easy to jump to conclusions either way.

Let's take the case of Michael Brown. It has galvanized the BLM movement. Tragic on so many levels, but in that case, I personally believe the officer was justified in the use of force.

First, let's consider the police offers record. He was a veteran who worked a primary black neighborhood for years and has received multiple commendations from the community for outstanding service. Why would an officer who served the same community without as much as a complaint suddenly decided to shoot and kill an innocent man?

Second, in one of the video footage from the scene, you can actually hear bystanders who may not be aware they are being recorded, stating clearly that Michael charged the officer, which is consistent with the officer's report. Wilson, the officer, had injuries consistent with the claim he made that he was punched by the suspect repeatedly. A gun was discharged inside the vehicle, also in a manner consistent with his statements. The evidence is overwhelming that Michael was the aggressor. Yet, the protests and the media never even gave the office a chance. He was guilty in the pubic eye from day one. Two investigations and both concluded he acted appropriately.

So, it's heartbreaking that another young black man died, but I also think it's heartbreaking that an outstanding cop had his life destroyed. There is overwhelming evidence of injustice and bias toward black man by white police officers. No doubt about it. However, I think we need to be objective and calm when assessing what happened.

 

[iMi]

My opinion is supported by statistics though. <1% of police killings lead to a charge, and <50% of these result in a conviction, which usually is of a lesser crime...

Cops are seldom charged. Hell, they are seldom indicted. Most cases are closed before they are opened. There are higher standards of care for medical professionals and even firefighters. It's also problematic how those different professions are perceived. A police officer is expected to "fear for his life" and use deadly force the second he feels threatened. On the other hand, a firefighter is expected to run into a burning building and risk his or her life to potentially preserve someone else's life. Shouldn't a police officer risk his life to protect the lives of others, even if it means not shooting in perceived self defense unless absolutely sure, so that he upholds the highest standard of care?

 

[User.45]

Cops are seldom charged. Hell, they are seldom indicted. Most cases are closed before they are opened. There are higher standards of care for medical professionals and even firefighters. It's also problematic how those different professions are perceived. A police officer is expected to "fear for his life" and use deadly force the second he feels threatened. On the other hand, a firefighter is expected to run into a burning building and risk his or her life to potentially preserve someone else's life. Shouldn't a police officer risk his life to protect the lives of others, even if it means not shooting in perceived self defense unless absolutely sure, so that he upholds the highest standard of care?

Agree with all, although I'd say the very first step is not expecting a behavior change from cops. It's changing the system, so we better understand the problems and address them. Like from the Breonna Taylor case, it should have culminated (it partially did) a ew standard of evidence production when it comes to police interventions that come with high risk for weapons getting discharged. What really upsets me about her death is to date all we have is what the cops and the boyfriend said, plus indirect ballistic evidence, when all those guys should have working cameras. To an extent I'm even OK with using a different standard for police officers when it comes to justification of weapon use, as long as they provide adequate audio&video evidence. And such evidence should be reviewed by an independent committee of community members, retired cops and other experts. We need to remove conflict of interest.

I'm also generally against this snuff porn that is going on these days, but at the presence I see no good way around it, otherwise we would have had a couple of police killings totally swept under the rug. BUT, the goal should be to restore community trust and once that is achieved, access to such footage should be restricted to a limited number of people.

Then the next step is to understand who commit the shooting, what are the circumstances and what can be done to avoid them on both a community and police force level. This is very very important. And lastly we need to establish standards based on this data to better judge unnecessary use of force, and hold cops accountable to this standard. As you said one of the best ways is to prevent such, and we DO know that past behavior is a very robust predictor of future actions of an individual.

There are so many real actions that could be taken without actually punishing officers or the community, but Americans have a tendency to give too much show time to extreme opinions and that's frustrating.

 

[iMi]

Agree with all, although I'd say the very first step is not expecting a behavior change from cops. It's changing the system, so we better understand the problems and address them. Like from the Breonna Taylor case, it should have culminated (it partially did) a ew standard of evidence production when it comes to police interventions that come with high risk for weapons getting discharged. What really upsets me about her death is to date all we have is what the cops and the boyfriend said, plus indirect ballistic evidence, when all those guys should have working cameras. To an extent I'm even OK with using a different standard for police officers when it comes to justification of weapon use, as long as they provide adequate audio&video evidence. And such evidence should be reviewed by an independent committee of community members, retired cops and other experts. We need to remove conflict of interest.

I'm also generally against this snuff porn that is going on these days, but at the presence I see no good way around it, otherwise we would have had a couple of police killings totally swept under the rug. BUT, the goal should be to restore community trust and once that is achieved, access to such footage should be restricted to a limited number of people.

Then the next step is to understand who commit the shooting, what are the circumstances and what can be done to avoid them on both a community and police force level. This is very very important. And lastly we need to establish standards based on this data to better judge unnecessary use of force, and hold cops accountable to this standard. As you said one of the best ways is to prevent such, and we DO know that past behavior is a very robust predictor of future actions of an individual.

There are so many real actions that could be taken without actually punishing officers or the community, but Americans have a tendency to give too much show time to extreme opinions and that's frustrating.

The Breonna Taylor case is particularly heartbreaking. It gets worse, the boyfriend is being sued by one of the offices for shooting at him. https://www.npr.org/2020/10/30/9295...s-lawsuit-against-boyfriend-of-breonna-taylor

Apparently having a second amendment right to defend yourself with a firearm applies only to white people.

At the core of this case is the no-knock warrant. It's exactly what it sounds like and it's intended to prevent the bad guys from flashing drugs down the toilet and therefore destroying evidence. They were in plain clothes, it would be the case with a no-knock warrants, and they used the techniques consistent with such action. That's why the claim they announced themselves is a blatant lie. I don't believe them and I don't believe the alleged "eye witnesses." An innocent woman was killed. No drugs were found. No illegal activity of any kind was found. Someone fucked up in a major way and yet -- no one is being held accountable.

There is talk of changing the law. There are already many states and cities that do not allow for no-knock warrants to be served. Again, black people are disproportionately at the receiving end of the violence that comes along with it.

 

[User.45]

The Breonna Taylor case is particularly heartbreaking. It gets worse, the boyfriend is being sued by one of the offices for shooting at him. https://www.npr.org/2020/10/30/9295...s-lawsuit-against-boyfriend-of-breonna-taylor

Apparently having a second amendment right to defend yourself with a firearm applies only to white people.

At the core of this case is the no-knock warrant. It's exactly what it sounds like and it's intended to prevent the bad guys from flashing drugs down the toilet and therefore destroying evidence. They were in plain clothes, it would be the case with a no-knock warrants, and they used the techniques consistent with such action. That's why the claim they announced themselves is a blatant lie. I don't believe them and I don't believe the alleged "eye witnesses." An innocent woman was killed. No drugs were found. No illegal activity of any kind was found. Someone fucked up in a major way and yet -- no one is being held accountable.

There is talk of changing the law. There are already many states and cities that do not allow for no-knock warrants to be served. Again, black people are disproportionately at the receiving end of the violence that comes along with it.

What was upsetting to me is the amount of misinformation that surrounded this case:
Was Taylor on the warrant, was the ex already apprehended, did the police announce themselves, who shot first, did Breonna sleep or was in the hallway (latter), etc. At one point Seddy referred to some transcript he read that turned out doctored as far as I followed. None of these would have been questioned if the cops wore body cams. I'm willing to go so far to say that we should have a system that automatically turns on the body cam the moment a cop touches the gun holster.

No cam? No gun.
The moment that gun holster is opened, privacy ends and official business starts => camera shall roll.

 

[User.45]

What was upsetting to me is the amount of misinformation that surrounded this case:
Was Taylor on the warrant, was the ex already apprehended, did the police announce themselves, who shot first, did Breonna sleep or was in the hallway (latter), etc. At one point Seddy referred to some transcript he read that turned out doctored as far as I followed. None of these would have been questioned if the cops wore body cams. I'm willing to go so far to say that we should have a system that automatically turns on the body cam the moment a cop touches the gun holster.

No cam? No gun.
The moment that gun holster is opened, privacy ends and official business starts => camera shall roll.

And SF seems to be doing it like that although the camera turned on "accidentally" before the shooting, despite the officer turned it on after the fact:

A former rookie police officer in San Francisco was charged with manslaughter on Monday, nearly three years after he fatally shot an unarmed carjacking suspect, the authorities said.

Mr. O’Neil, who was Black, was suspected of having stolen a California State Lottery minivan. Mr. Samayoa and Officer Talusan chased him for a few blocks in the Bayview District when the van reached a dead-end street and Mr. O’Neil jumped out and began to run, Mr. Boudin said in the news release.

Other patrol cars closed in and blocked Mr. O’Neil’s path, at which point he ran past the police car where Mr. Samayoa was seated in the passenger seat. The rookie officer shot Mr. O’Neil as he was running by, killing him, according to the release.

The shooting was captured on Mr. Samayoa’s body camera.

Ex-Police Officer Charged With Manslaughter in 2017 Killing of Suspect (Published 2020)

The San Francisco police rookie, Christopher Samayoa, was on his fourth day of field training when he shot and killed Keita O’Neil, an unarmed carjacking suspect, the authorities said.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Yoused]

Well, this is messed up: during a conversation with a police officer, an activist was streaming video to insta-something. Then, the officer turned on some music – apparently for the purpose of triggering the streaming site's content filter that blocks video that contains copyrighted music.

Come on, guys, just do your jobs and stop being dicks.

 

[iMi]

I hate to say it, but nothing will change anytime soon. We need to be ready to push for reforms for a very long time.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I hate to say it, but nothing will change anytime soon. We need to be ready to push for reforms for a very long time.

Comities, studies, and panels are code for we aren't going to do shit.

Remember when gun violence was being blamed on mental health not too long ago? What have we done about that? Nada. It will only come up again when there is some other mass shooting.

 

[Joe]

Nothing will change because so many people hold police officers on a pedestal. They never do anything wrong in the eyes of these people. I don't understand why people get off on other people's suffering. They will kill an unarmed black man and people will justify it because he smoked weed once in 10th grade.

We learned with the Capitol attacks that these people don't back the blue. They only back the blue when they're going after black people. They love when the cops go after people they don't like.

I have an ex-friend that is a cop. He is a shitty human and that is really the reason why we are no longer friends. He's a trump supporter and has said some pretty racist things about black people...and this dude is a COP! And there are many more just like him.

 

[Yoused]

He's a trump supporter and has said some pretty racist things about black people...and this dude is a COP! And there are many more just like him.

There was a FBI report about a decade and a half ago that outlined their serious concerns about a trend of reactionary White-Wing types embedding themselves in LEAs around the country, so a racist asshole police officer is far from surprising. Even the reasonable types, and even the non-white types get infected by constant exposure to the White-Wingers. It may take only a few to curdle an otherwise decent agency.

Add to this the cycle of police targeting non-whites, which makes the non-whites resent/despise the police, which drives the police to target the non-whites even harder, in an ever growing spiral.