The End of the USA

[Huntn]

I’m not sure we need to. We don’t need to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but even the founding fathers accepted the need for evolution and reform. Those are ideals from the founding of this nation too.

Who’s asking to throw the baby out? I’m saying we need to return to standards such as among other things, valuing truth, honesty, consideration and tolerance, although tolerance has always been in short supply. The liberals are the ones with tolerance.

 

[ArgoDuck]

Well, the thing is, that concluding thought is me lamenting the loss of this sort of "average person" history. What did people do during the fall of an empire or nation? What worked when trying to organize? What didn’t? Did folks try to strengthen their local communities to look out for each other? Did that help? What hurdles did they face?

It seems like we are seeing people trying to figure this out in real time thanks to the internet, but because history is always about the broad strokes (and who gets to write it), we lost out on these smaller details that could serve as lessons or insight for the next go around. Either on how to prevent it, or ride it out. Something that could certainly help many people who look at the scale of things now and succumb to doom scrolling…

Possibly relevant…I belong to the indigenous population of New Zealand. Colonized in the 1800s, many of our ‘iwi’ (loosely, ‘tribes’) forged an agreement with the crown which - though its English and Maori texts departed in significant respects - was eventually accepted and ratified as the nearest thing our nation has to a founding document. And so - in recent decades - principles of that agreement have been increasingly implemented in law.

Now, for many, many reasons my people are a free-thinking bunch who argue and disagree vehemently even as we observe strong values of connection with each other. However, this free thinking made many of my people susceptible to messaging from - for example - rfk jnr (yes, even here), resulting in poor uptake of covid vaccines, to my immense disappointment and frustration. What I mean is that, on a micro scale, we mirror the "continent of nations" to which you allude, or put another way we retain our iwi identities, and identities forged at two further sub-levels of that. Not to mention all the other social identities one finds in any one individual.

Recently, one of the two minor parties in our latest government introduced a bill to dismantle the founding agreement and ‘reduce’ our people to ‘the same’ level as everyone else, ignoring - for example - our generally poor health, educational and socioeconomic outcomes.

The result is a very strong groundswell of unity among my people. A sense of purpose. A restoration of pride. A bond. And effective action.

I don’t know of course how similar our situations are; in fact, I’m sure there are many dissimilarities.

But I think any basically proud people - and you in the US are surely that! - will only take being subjugated for so long…and then?

 

[Nycturne]

Who’s asking to throw the baby out? I’m saying we need to return to standards such as among other things, valuing truth, honesty, consideration and tolerance, although tolerance has always been in short supply. The liberals are the ones with tolerance.

I'm not suggesting you said anything like that. I mentioned it as a qualifier on what *I* said in the bit you quoted.

The whole point I was making was that I don't think we should be "returning to" the model of the founding fathers.

 

[Yoused]

A lot of people are trying to change the current situation
He can be pretty serious , read the comments too

Yet, at present, the mainstream media is eerily silent on this. Get 30 MAGAts together in a park and you get headlines all over the place, but get a thousand reasonable people marching against Agent Orange and America Run Amusk – crickets.

I’m saying we need to return to standards such as among other things, valuing truth, honesty, consideration and tolerance, although tolerance has always been in short supply.

Yeah, enough with the founding fathers, though. Those were not their ideals.

 

[Huntn]

Yet, at present, the mainstream media is eerily silent on this. Get 30 MAGAts together in a park and you get headlines all over the place, but get a thousand reasonable people marching against Agent Orange and America Run Amusk – crickets.



Yeah, enough with the founding fathers, though. Those were not their ideals.

Uh truth, honesty, equality were not their ideals? What were they?

 

[Nycturne]

Now, for many, many reasons my people are a free-thinking bunch who argue and disagree vehemently even as we observe strong values of connection with each other. However, this free thinking made many of my people susceptible to messaging from - for example - rfk jnr (yes, even here), resulting in poor uptake of covid vaccines, to my immense disappointment and frustration. What I mean is that, on a micro scale, we mirror the "continent of nations" to which you allude, or put another way we retain our iwi identities, and identities forged at two further sub-levels of that. Not to mention all the other social identities one finds in any one individual.

And I'd say you see these sort of micro-scale effects here too, but maybe not to the scale you have it where there's cultures that go back quite a bit further than the age of the US. I think I'm more stating that the US was never really truly unified. And as the country has aged, we've developed regional cultures that are growing more distinct over time, rather than less. On top of that we have our own genocidal and segregationist history that we still haven't fully reckoned with or escaped from.

But I think any basically proud people - and you in the US are surely that! - will only take being subjugated for so long…and then?

And then? Something very ugly. Precisely because if it happens quickly, then there will be a lot of people willing to fight to support the current populist movement. More disillusionment needs to happen first before it's more revolution, and less civil war. One problem with a proud people, is that you can fall to the sin of pride as well.

I'm trying not to get into the whole mess of predictions on how this can play out. It's hard to see the forest when you are mired in the trees, and there's just too many ways for it to go. So much depends on how those in authority overstep, when, and how bad it gets. There's no guarantee that Trump's current imperialist notions will get far enough along to unify our neighbors against us. There's no guarantee that the nation will deteriorate quickly enough to build up enough pressure in the boiler, so to speak. I just don't know.

 

[Yoused]

Uh truth, honesty, equality were not their ideals? What were they?

Their primary ideal was we want a country ruled by us rather than by (or pay taxes to) some other government that is at least a week's journey away when the weather is favorable. They built a dynamic aristocratic regime designed to support its upper class for as long as possible. "Truth", "honesty" and "equality" were really not part of the calculation (to wit: concessions to slave holders).

Class division has always been a feature of the US. The upper class has had times when their position has been somewhat perilous, but up to this point, they have always been able to maneuver back toward relative stability. "Truth" and "Justice" are façades of the "American Way".

 

[fooferdoggie]

 

[Eric]

View attachment 33759

Imagine if they put this same effort into protecting children from being slaughtered in schools with guns.

 

[ArgoDuck]

And I'd say you see these sort of micro-scale effects here too, but maybe not to the scale you have it where there's cultures that go back quite a bit further than the age of the US. I think I'm more stating that the US was never really truly unified. And as the country has aged, we've developed regional cultures that are growing more distinct over time, rather than less. On top of that we have our own genocidal and segregationist history that we still haven't fully reckoned with or escaped from.

That is how it appears looking from the outside too. Not claiming any superiority; certainly not here, nor anywhere else!

And then? Something very ugly. Precisely because if it happens quickly, then there will be a lot of people willing to fight to support the current populist movement. More disillusionment needs to happen first before it's more revolution, and less civil war. One problem with a proud people, is that you can fall to the sin of pride as well.

Agreed

I'm trying not to get into the whole mess of predictions on how this can play out. It's hard to see the forest when you are mired in the trees, and there's just too many ways for it to go. So much depends on how those in authority overstep, when, and how bad it gets. There's no guarantee that Trump's current imperialist notions will get far enough along to unify our neighbors against us. There's no guarantee that the nation will deteriorate quickly enough to build up enough pressure in the boiler, so to speak. I just don't know.

And I don’t know either.

What I think can be predicted is that the next while (1? 2 years?) is critical. For you in the US. For the rest of the world.

I wish you all the best.

 

[Yoused]

I wish you all the best

Wish all you want, it is the opposite of what we are getting, the opposite of what a lot of us are expecting near term.

 

[Huntn]

Their primary ideal was we want a country ruled by us rather than by (or pay taxes to) some other government that is at least a week's journey away when the weather is favorable. They built a dynamic aristocratic regime designed to support its upper class for as long as possible. "Truth", "honesty" and "equality" were really not part of the calculation (to wit: concessions to slave holders).

Class division has always been a feature of the US. The upper class has had times when their position has been somewhat perilous, but up to this point, they have always been able to maneuver back toward relative stability. "Truth" and "Justice" are façades of the "American Way".

I disagree, and feel that truth and honesty, are absolute values that exist, that existed because without them, everything you supposedly stand for is a sham, nothing counts, garbage in, garbage out. Unless your argument is that humanity is garbage. I will acknowledge without reservation, that we are deeply flawed, that the idea of slavery was our failure*, and that truth and honesty is/can be stated as the ideal standard, rarely achieved, but it should be the ideal we sincerely strive for.

*the rationalization behind allowing slavery was, let’s unite to take care of England first, and then address slavery later. And it was addressed in the Civi War. Yet the related issue of racism is still with us today.

 

[Yoused]

the rationalization behind allowing slavery was, let’s unite to take care of England first, and then address slavery later

This is entirely not supported by the evidence. In Somerset v Stewart 1772, the King's Bench ruled that a person who set foot on British soil could not be forcibly removed from the country on the basis of ownership by another person. The judge went so far as to describe slavery as odious. This built upon the 1763 ruling in Shanley v Harvey.

The general of the US Army during the American Revolution, the first President, was a slave owner – in the first 36 years of the Republic, the presidency was held by slave owners for all but four years.

It can reasonably be argued that protection of slavery was one motivating factor in the prosecution of the American Revolution, that "we will address it later was not in consideration.

The founding fathers are subjects of repeated hagiography, but the reality is that they were just a clique of upper class dudes with a hair up their collective ass.

 

[Huntn]

This is entirely not supported by the evidence. In Somerset v Stewart 1772, the King's Bench ruled that a person who set foot on British soil could not be forcibly removed from the country on the basis of ownership by another person. The judge went so far as to describe slavery as odious. This built upon the 1763 ruling in Shanley v Harvey.

The general of the US Army during the American Revolution, the first President, was a slave owner – in the first 36 years of the Republic, the presidency was held by slave owners for all but four years.

It can reasonably be argued that protection of slavery was one motivating factor in the prosecution of the American Revolution, that "we will address it later was not in consideration.

The founding fathers are subjects of repeated hagiography, but the reality is that they were just a clique of upper class dudes with a hair up their collective ass.

Ok, I concede regarding my forefather statement. I can’t argue with you other than to say that there were people who were for and against slavery and they banded together to free themselves of England. The people against slavery decided it was necessary to put off till later. This does put a bit of a hole in my notion of what the Founders wanted as a group. Yet, there has to be a real level of truth and honesty, along with consistent morals to proceed. And I think it’s reasonable to argue that Trump violates every acceptable moral standard. Today we would be the North, and the Trumpets would be the South.

I seem to have forgotten, that I’ve always said that writing up a Constitution citing equality is kind of a joke when you allow slavery for a long as we did. It might support the idea that that those responsible (including Jefferson?) were citing an ideal to strive for, acknowledging what was morally right and wrong, but feeling trapped in the system they succumbed to, enabled by human bondage.

 

[Yoused]

I seem to have forgotten, that I’ve always said that writing up a Constitution citing equality is kind of a joke when you allow slavery for a long as we did.

Equality is not a concept embodied in the US Constitution. The only place it appears is in "… nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.…" Amendment Fourteen, which was ratifed in 1868. The word "equal" appears in Article Five, but that says that the states are entitled to equal representation in Congress.

"… that all men are created equal …" appears in the Declaration of Independence, which was not only never codified as law, but the basic assertion was meant to say, to the King, that the idea of royalty was being rejected; on the ground, all-inclusive equality was not really on the table. The founders were genuinely class-conscious and not egalitarian – that idea was the French interpretation, and we can see how that went.

 

[Huntn]

Equality is not a concept embodied in the US Constitution. The only place it appears is in "… nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.…" Amendment Fourteen, which was ratifed in 1868. The word "equal" appears in Article Five, but that says that the states are entitled to equal representation in Congress.

"… that all men are created equal …" appears in the Declaration of Independence, which was not only never codified as law, but the basic assertion was meant to say, to the King, that the idea of royalty was being rejected; on the ground, all-inclusive equality was not really on the table. The founders were genuinely class-conscious and not egalitarian – that idea was the French interpretation, and we can see how that went.

I was primarily thinking of the DOI. Still it’s a bold moral philosophical statement that I assumed maybe in error, that it was more than lip service.

 

[Huntn]

View attachment 33759

Only the The Head Shit who pretends he’s a lot of things like cultured, sophisticated, mainstream artistic, can turn roses into turd blossoms. He’s Mr Manipulator or actually living in his own horror fantasy, where he rules his World. He’s already in rule by decree mode, and more than more than willing to take his next step to Emperor. His definition of Great= “Me Calling the shots”. And it will be great when he lifts the curtain that allows all the little morons to believe he cares about them. I so badly want to see this threat in jail where he belongs.

Little morons waiting for their turn​

 

[GermanSuplex]

Unless and until republicans stand up to call Trump out, nothing will get better. People are exhausted.

I saw a message from a republican member of congress (not my rep, but close by) on Trump giving Blagojevich a pass. Two lines of a tepid disagreement that could have been written by any intern or staffer with a basic comprehension of English. No real pushback at all.

I have a feeling Eric Adam’s’ case being dropped is just a way to bolster Trump’s claim that he is a political witch hunt victim. Steve Bannon pleaded guilty to defrauding MAGA supporters and gets no jail time and no restitution to pay. Wow, what a punishment! Again, your local clerk who makes $40K a year will pay far more and probably serve time if they embezzled a fraction of what he and his cronies did.

Trump is a lifelong fraud and now a felon who’s been punished with a return to the White House and the ability to get all his friends off the hook.

Things may or may not get better, but let’s face it, we only ever had a facade of fairness and equality, and Trump and the GOP have just removed the veneer. The idolized version of America is dead. It was only an idea in the first place, but we’ve gone backwards a lot the last 25 years.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Unless and until republicans stand up to call Trump out, nothing will get better. People are exhausted.

I doubt they can do anything at this point. they sold their souls to trump they are worthless yellow-belly sap suckers.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

People need to stop using "democracy!" as a rallying cry. Right now for half the country democracy is synonymous with screwing them over and for the other half synonymous with not doing a damn thing to protect them. Possibly too many syllables for some, but "representative government" might have a better impact. Clearly the government right now is representing the wealthy, and the wealthier the more representation. Look it like having to change "global warming" to "climate change" in order to get some people to acknowledge what is really going on instead of using snowballs as performative contrarianism.