Which will voters remember more in 2024?

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Black people and other constituent groups will be waiting forever if they don't advocate and fight for their rights. Now! MLK talked about this in the 50s and 60s. 50s and fucking 60s. When you're targeted and suffer the most, you don't have the luxury of "uniting" with supposed allies that don't fight for your best interests on a regular basis. We can can chew and walk at the same time. There just has to be the will and enthusiasm from supposed allies.

The Dems lost so much recently because the Black vote is targeted and stymied. Fighting for Black people is fighting for the Democrats. Same with the Trans community. They keep being told to be quiet and wait. They've been waiting forever and now have members of the LGBT community that don't give a shit now that marriage equality is accomplished. Too many have moved on and don't care now that they think their rights are taken care of. This "Well, I got mine!" mentality is the bigger issue for the left. Not so-called fragmentation. The Dems are made up of different groups with different goals and needs. Nothing wrong for getting what's necessary. IIRC, for at least a couple of weeks all jobs lost early during the Pandemic was among women. You can't tell them to be quiet and unite. You need policies and programs to address this disparity. Many of the jobs not being filled are because women are expected to be caregivers and because so many of the shit, low-paid work in this country are considered "women's work." And because women are burdened with unfair pair and promotions, and are targeted for harassment. They had a little march the day after Mango's inauguration to highlight their needs and wants. That got the Dems the house majority. That got the Dems the two runoff elections in Georgia. Not waiting in the back of the bus.

Hows that "majority" working out for the Democrats? I hope I'm proven wrong, but you give Republicans and moderates too many individual targets they disagree with and they'll vote against the entire party based on that. Welcome to authoritarianism where all those separate issues will quickly be crushed.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Take care of your most loyal voters.

For the Dems, that would be Black voters, especially Black women. Even with outright voter suppression targeting them they came out and helped Dems win back the House. They helped put Osoff and Warnock in the Senate. And before that, they got Joe the Dem nod. They shouldn't stay silent when the most pressing issues they face is not fought for because "Oh well!" At a certain point they'll rightly stay home because what is the point? Doug Jones squeaked into the Alabama seat for a couple years. What did he do to show his appreciation for nearly all Black women voting for him? I'm not talking about his work decades ago. I'm from the school of What's Happening Now! Black voters came out and pushed Biden over the threshold to secure the Democratic nomination. They didn't want to hear any nonsense of maybe I'll choose a Black woman as VP. They rightly deserved to be represented on the ticket after decades of loyalty. Those expectations of being rewarded for loyalty and fighting for Dems has to continue.

Ha! Democrats haven't taken care of black voters for decades. Ask them. Ask them specifically about Biden's history.

 

[lizkat]

Ha! Democrats haven't taken care of black voters for decades. Ask them. Ask them specifically about Biden's history.

Yeah. And do we think Stacey Abrams launched a national tour just bc she'll try again for governor of Georgia?

Stacey Abrams launches national tour ahead of 2022 midterms

Abrams isn't saying whether she's running for Georgia governor — or building her profile for a national spot.

www.axios.com

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Yeah. And do we think Stacey Abrams launched a national tour just bc she'll try again for governor of Georgia?

Stacey Abrams launches national tour ahead of 2022 midterms

Abrams isn't saying whether she's running for Georgia governor — or building her profile for a national spot.

www.axios.com

I hope that has an impact. The poll I posted earlier shows a big percentage of Democrat voters plan to sleep the midterms out.

 

[SuperMatt]

Ha! Democrats haven't taken care of black voters for decades. Ask them. Ask them specifically about Biden's history.

That’s a false right-wing talking point. Ever heard of Obamacare? And if black people don’t like Biden, why did he overwhelmingly win over Bernie Sanders AND Trump?

https://globalpolicysolutions.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/ACA-and-Racial-Disparities.pdf

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

That’s a false right-wing talking point. Ever heard of Obamacare? And if black people don’t like Biden, why did he overwhelmingly win over Bernie Sanders AND Trump?

https://globalpolicysolutions.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/ACA-and-Racial-Disparities.pdf

Yes, Obamacare solved all their problems and was designed with black people in mind.

The responses on this thread are like some big SciFi franchise where the heroes travel the galaxy or realm to gather all the different races or tribes to fight against the common good and they all said "Fuck that. My people's personal needs are the most important."

 

[SuperMatt]

Yes, Obamacare solved all their problems and was designed with black people in mind.

The responses on this thread are like some big SciFi franchise where the heroes travel the galaxy or realm to gather all the different races or tribes to fight against the common good and they all said "Fuck that. My people's personal needs are the most important."

Did you even look at the PDF I attached? Or you just like tossing bombs and saying Fuck?

You said Democrats never did anything for black people. Then you go straight to insisting that Democrats should have magically solved all the problems of every black person. Get real.

Your personal opinion of what Democrats should do is just that. You want every person who voted Democrat to drop whatever’s important to them and pursue your agenda? Your vision of the monolithic Democratic Party you want has a SciFi equivalent: the Borg.

 

[Huntn]

Right now the Democrats aren’t doing much to get people excited about, and in fact are actively removing things from legislation that is popular. If things go back to Trump I predict a lot of “I wish we took the threat more seriously” interviews from the left to which I say go fuck yourself.

Things are being removed because of two asshole Dems and all of the asshole RINO Trump minion appeasers. And remember these popular things would never see the light of day under the corrupt 2021 Riechstag America Branch.

 

[lizkat]

Things are being removed because of two asshole Dems and all of the asshole RINO Trump minion appeasers. And remember these popular things would never see the light of day under the corrupt 2021 Riechstag America Branch.

Yeah this is what's making me angry now, the whittling away so that even if whatever's left is appropriated, it won't be enough to get done what was meant to be done, and so next time around the Rs will call it wasted money.

It's a typical kind of interaction between the "moderate" Ds and what's now the Trump wing of the Rs-- but it's been happening over the past couple decades. It's called cripple it before it rolls out so we can say we gave it a shot and it didn't work and was a complete waste of taxpayer dollars.

For instance, the flaws of the ACA are from weakening it before it was passed, because the healthcare industry feared it would work too well and kill their profit margins if ACA wasn't made unappealingly weak and also too onerous to implement fully at the state level. And the GOP officials in too many states still declining to accept what is on tap for ACA implementation and expansion from federal incentives. They don't want it to succeed, and fear having to invest in their own constituents' health and well being. Meanwhile Americans do want ACA to be retained and improved, not ditched.

 

[Herdfan]

That is some straight up Bullshit! You acknowledge that the GOP's intent is to kill the bigger portion once the smaller bill is passed. If it's killed, the Dems are up Shit's Creek with voters and won't be able to win two more seats a year later, and possibly will lose more seats because of that failure orchestrated by McConnell, McCarthy and the duplicitous Dems.

McConnell, McCarthy and the Dem twins have nothing to do with how people vote. But if they are so bad, then you would think that it would help the Dems take more seats.

 

[Herdfan]

Living in DC, most Terry McAuliffe ads on TV are those linking Youngkin to Trump. People cannot stand Trump in northern Virginia, and these insane mobs (astroturf, not real grassroots BTW) attacking school boards in Loudoun county are turning more and more people against the GOP as well. The more they show their true colors, the more they turn people off. It’s the white power cult of Trump now, and people don’t want any part of it.

Is this a prediction for tomorrrow?

 

[Herdfan]

Now is not the time to fragment into different separate issues. Or go ahead and watch the other side collectively take over and smash all those things once they have control. That’s a major problem with the left. They are almost incapable of uniting over a single greater cause.

I won't say the "left", but the Dems for sure. Too many factions competing against each other.

 

[Alli]

I won't say the "left", but the Dems for sure. Too many factions competing against each other.

Maybe it’s time for all these factions (both D and R) to form their own parties.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Did you even look at the PDF I attached? Or you just like tossing bombs and saying Fuck?

You said Democrats never did anything for black people. Then you go straight to insisting that Democrats should have magically solved all the problems of every black person. Get real.

Your personal opinion of what Democrats should do is just that. You want every person who voted Democrat to drop whatever’s important to them and pursue your agenda? Your vision of the monolithic Democratic Party you want has a SciFi equivalent: the Borg.

Sorry for the delay in responding. I was busy moving this weekend.

That PDF is an expanded explanation of a bullet point from the ACA. Saying the ACA was specifically for black people is like saying any future gun control legislation was passed specifically because of black on black gun violence. Would it help cut back on that? Probably. Is that specifically why it was passed. No. In fact there’s plenty of evidence and opinion that, that specific issue is pretty low on the reasons we’d pass more national gun control legislation.

There’s nothing borg-like in what I’m suggesting. I realize now that saying “Now is not the time” probably triggers an adverse response in some people, but I’m saying put those issues on pause to unite to fight the greater evil. When they unite to fight the greater evil in SciFi movies they don’t all become Ewoks or elves (or whatever) as a result or once the common enemy is defeated. Once the common enemy is defeated they still have their individual identities and challenges,

I do think Nazi Germany is an apt comparison. Hitler and the Nazi Party originally gained power democratically while other movements were too fractured between their different priorities to make a serious dent against the Nazis. In the US today those many different priority groups co-opted the Democrat party, but it still can look like a fractured mess.

I think we both want the same end result. We’re just disagreeing on how to get there. It seems like you believe we should fight all these different issues now and hope authoritarianism doesn’t take over, or these issues get addressed in stone before it does. I believe we should focus on defeating authoritarianism first because if it takes over many of these issues are going to be made worse.

 

[SuperMatt]

Saying the ACA was specifically for black people is like saying any future gun control legislation was passed specifically because of black on black gun violence.

Hmm... you said:

Ha! Democrats haven't taken care of black voters for decades. Ask them. Ask them specifically about Biden's history.

Then I replied:

Ever heard of Obamacare?

Now, without warning, you switched your criteria to some kind of bill that was specifically for (or only for?) black people.

With all the inequality in our country, the sad reality is that any bill that benefits those with low incomes or those without health care or those who rent or those in prison is going to help black people more than white people due to the persistent systemic racism against black people throughout American history. The evidence clearly shows the benefits of ACA for black people. I guess you want to ignore it because it’s not called the “healthcare only for black people bill” or something.

The metaphorical stadium we’re discussing this in would like its goalposts back because nobody can find them anymore.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Hmm... you said:

Then I replied:


Now, without warning, you switched your criteria to some kind of bill that was specifically for (or only for?) black people.

With all the inequality in our country, the sad reality is that any bill that benefits those with low incomes or those without health care or those who rent or those in prison is going to help black people more than white people due to the persistent systemic racism against black people throughout American history. The evidence clearly shows the benefits of ACA for black people. I guess you want to ignore it because it’s not called the “healthcare only for black people bill” or something.

The metaphorical stadium we’re discussing this in would like its goalposts back because nobody can find them anymore.

You and I just see a lot of things differently on this topic. I've never even heard health insurance mentioned as an issue from black activists, maybe you have.

And sorry I didn't originally say it in long form explanation, didn't think I needed to, but my goal post was always at addressing issues specific to black people and on their behalf, not just getting caught in the net of helping ALL Americans, as the first sentence in that PDF says.

 

[lizkat]

Maybe it’s time for all these factions (both D and R) to form their own parties.

Yes, perhaps. Otherwise it sometimes feels like as Dems anyway we're never going to get past the lingering Clintonistas and the associated problem of ever rightward-moving centrism in congressional and presidential politics.

That's not a slam against what I regarded as the administrative competence of HRC in 2016 compared to the many-faceted disaster of a Trump presidency. it's a slam against the DNC, for not making a clean break with Clintonista party leaders and field operations after the 2008 elections: if it was "her turn" back then, well ok, she had it and she lost to Obama in the primaries.

If some felt it was still "her turn" in 2016 and worked hard to crown her in advance of the primaries, well ok she took that turn too but then lost the general election. Anyone still thinking that it's still her turn, or the turn of her faction of the Democratic Party, well... aren't we done with "turns" yet?

The way I look at it, Obama won twice and it wasn't "his turn" either time. He presented himself as candidate and as candidate for re-election. And he won. He won the primaries and he won general election twice. The voters wanted him to win, and he did.

And... I have not forgotten that Terry McAuliffe is who ran the 2008 Clinton campaign. He's still a Clintonista. A guy who believes in "turns".

And hey If he wins the Virgina governorship? He'll likely run for President in 2024 on the grounds that it's his turn, even if his only opponent is Kamala Harris, and especially if there are other challengers. He might even run if Biden decides to go for it again, because Biden's been painted as a socialist by the GOP --yeah a socialist "like Obama"-- and because McAuliffe is a white guy from the South, just like Bill Clinton but a little more coastal and a lot more connected than the Arkansan was in 1992. McAuliffe sees an opening for himself in an America that the Clintonistas have helped push farther right of center than a big tent party in the USA can possibly situate itself.

There are plenty Dems like me who remember an era when GOP candidates sometimes warranted consideration for president, but who now will never again vote for another Republican. But when we see the Dems put up for governor somebody like McAuliffe, it can give progressive Dems qualms on the way out the door to the polls. It feels like déja vu. I'm tired of voting "against the Republican agenda". I'd like to vote for a progressive candidate whose policies and legislative proposals are forthrightly progressive, not stitched together from a bunch of focus groups on how to keep from fracturing the party of the big tent.

I do hope McAuliffe wins the Virginia governor's slot, because the sense of Virginia now seems to me way more blue than red, but I'm certainly glad I don't live in Virginia and so don't have to vote for the guy.

To be honest I can't wait to change my reggie to "independent" because the Dems are not who I am, and they keep proving it in Congress as well as in the White House. And I regard Terry McAuliffe as a guy who figures he's on his way to the White House as a centrist candidate in 2024.

 

[Herdfan]

... aren't we done with "turns" yet?

And hey If he wins the Virgina governorship? He'll likely run for President in 2024 on the grounds that it's his turn, even if his only opponent is Kamala Harris, and especially if there are other challengers. He might even run if Biden decides to go for it again, because Biden's been painted as a socialist by the GOP --yeah a socialist "like Obama"-- and because McAuliffe is a white guy from the South, just like Bill Clinton but a little more coastal and a lot more connected than the Arkansan was in 1992. McAuliffe sees an opening for himself in an America that the Clintonistas have helped push farther right of center than a big tent party in the USA can possibly situate itself.

I'd like to vote for a progressive candidate whose policies and legislative proposals are forthrightly progressive, not stitched together from a bunch of focus groups on how to keep from fracturing the party of the big tent.

Would love for the GOP to be done with them as well. Last two, Dole & McCain were disasters.

That is a big IF. If he loses, he may be done.

Question about the progressive candidates, who did you support back in the 80's, 90's and early 00's. No one back then screamed they were progressive. Obama showed shades of it, but other than that, AOC was really the first one who had national recognizance as a progressive.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Yes, perhaps. Otherwise it sometimes feels like as Dems anyway we're never going to get past the lingering Clintonistas and the associated problem of ever rightward-moving centrism in congressional and presidential politics.

That's not a slam against what I regarded as the administrative competence of HRC in 2016 compared to the many-faceted disaster of a Trump presidency. it's a slam against the DNC, for not making a clean break with Clintonista party leaders and field operations after the 2008 elections: if it was "her turn" back then, well ok, she had it and she lost to Obama in the primaries.

If some felt it was still "her turn" in 2016 and worked hard to crown her in advance of the primaries, well ok she took that turn too but then lost the general election. Anyone still thinking that it's still her turn, or the turn of her faction of the Democratic Party, well... aren't we done with "turns" yet?

The way I look at it, Obama won twice and it wasn't "his turn" either time. He presented himself as candidate and as candidate for re-election. And he won. He won the primaries and he won general election twice. The voters wanted him to win, and he did.

And... I have not forgotten that Terry McAuliffe is who ran the 2008 Clinton campaign. He's still a Clintonista. A guy who believes in "turns".

And hey If he wins the Virgina governorship? He'll likely run for President in 2024 on the grounds that it's his turn, even if his only opponent is Kamala Harris, and especially if there are other challengers. He might even run if Biden decides to go for it again, because Biden's been painted as a socialist by the GOP --yeah a socialist "like Obama"-- and because McAuliffe is a white guy from the South, just like Bill Clinton but a little more coastal and a lot more connected than the Arkansan was in 1992. McAuliffe sees an opening for himself in an America that the Clintonistas have helped push farther right of center than a big tent party in the USA can possibly situate itself.

There are plenty Dems like me who remember an era when GOP candidates sometimes warranted consideration for president, but who now will never again vote for another Republican. But when we see the Dems put up for governor somebody like McAuliffe, it can give progressive Dems qualms on the way out the door to the polls. It feels like déja vu. I'm tired of voting "against the Republican agenda". I'd like to vote for a progressive candidate whose policies and legislative proposals are forthrightly progressive, not stitched together from a bunch of focus groups on how to keep from fracturing the party of the big tent.

I do hope McAuliffe wins the Virginia governor's slot, because the sense of Virginia now seems to me way more blue than red, but I'm certainly glad I don't live in Virginia and so don't have to vote for the guy.

To be honest I can't wait to change my reggie to "independent" because the Dems are not who I am, and they keep proving it in Congress as well as in the White House. And I regard Terry McAuliffe as a guy who figures he's on his way to the White House as a centrist candidate in 2024.

I'll just add that the Democrat party is way too preoccupied with "electable" and in most cases that's based on old data and, well, Republicans. If a candidate is to the left (almost at all) of their view of "electable" they'll go out of their way to kill their chances.

Remember in the 2020 election when Bernie was the top runner, even embraced by liberal media that lasted for about 1 day, then suddenly Biden went from dead last to the top of the heap? Well, that was strange, if not completely predictable.

And here we are....going out in a blaze of mediocrity (also predictable)

 

[Herdfan]

Remember in the 2020 election when Bernie was the top runner, even embraced by liberal media that lasted for about 1 day, then suddenly Biden went from dead last to the top of the heap? Well, that was strange, if not completely predictable.

The thing about the media, they don't select the candidates, the voters do (well not actually but you get my point). So even if the media loves a candidate, the voters still have the last say. In 2020. they voted for the Joe they thought they knew because they were comfortable with him. Turns out, he took a hard left and now his approval is in the toilet and he may well cost the party control of Congress in '22.