Afghanistan (Again)

[Huntn]

Other than completely lying about how it "began" ***cough daddy cough*** she's not wrong about how it's ending. We're basically handing it back to the Taliban on a silver platter, including everything we've armed the Afghans with (so bonus!).

I don't know what Biden (or Trump who started this exit) was hoping to expect but walking out on the people who have grown dependent on us doesn't seem like the right thing to do from a humanitarian standpoint.

I was against the invasion 20 years ago, so part of me is happy while I recognized there are people in that country who put their trust in us, who may have already come to a bad end. That is tragic as usual in a situation like this and I’m not making excuses for the US’s role in this.

An important point is this, they can and did wait us out, 2 decades. We can no longer afford permanent occupations and the people we propped up had not the will to stand up for their convictions, despite the “training” and equipment.

 

[Eric]

I was against the invasion 20 years ago, so part of me is happy while I recognized there are people in that country who put their trust in us, who may have already come to a bad end. That is tragic as usual in a situation like this and I’m not making excuses for the US’s role in this.

An important point is this, they can and did wait us out, 2 decades. We can no longer afford permanent occupations and the people we propped up had not the will to stand up for their convictions, despite the “training” and equipment.

It seems like a better managed and controlled departure would've been a better solution here. I'm not sure how much was put into that because all we would hear is things like "we don't want them to know when we're leaving" instead of "this plan will take 5 years with a goal of properly handing it off".

 

[Deleted member 215]

So were there no plans to properly hand it off before Trump promised to withdraw? Were there such plans when Obama wanted to withdraw (and then walked back doing so)? I would like to know exactly how those in positions of power thought this would be accomplished.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

It seems like a better managed and controlled departure would've been a better solution here. I'm not sure how much was put into that because all we would hear is things like "we don't want them to know when we're leaving" instead of "this plan will take 5 years with a goal of properly handing it off".

The US could have waited until what is quaintly termed "the fighting season" had ended, i.e. when winter would have made mountain passes impassable, and when the Taliban could not have launched an offensive, - which might have allowed a few months of conslidation by the Afghan defence forces, instead of setting a ludicrous date of September so that they could announce that they had withdrawn from the country on the twentieth anniversary of 9/11.

 

[SuperMatt]

So were there no plans to properly hand it off before Trump promised to withdraw? Were there such plans when Obama wanted to withdraw (and then walked back doing so)? I would like to know exactly how those in positions of power thought this would be accomplished.

Trump’s administration held peace talks with the Taliban and excluded the Afghan government from the talks. Probably because the Afghan government was so weak… but still it looks like the Taliban just used the peace agreement to keep Americans from shooting at them until they left so they could build up their forces and be ready to invade immediately thereafter.

U.S.-Taliban Peace Deal: What to Know

The United States and the Taliban signed an agreement aimed at ending the eighteen-year war in Afghanistan, but many factors could still disrupt the peace process.

www.cfr.org

 

[Eric]

I find it hard to blame any one president here, for the last 20 years they've all played a role in one way or another and now it's sitting on Biden's doorstep and IMO he needs to address it.

Anyone under the age of 20 has no idea what it was like back then and we're basically sending them back to the stone age, I don't care about democrats vs republicans, we need to do the right thing.

 

[SuperMatt]

I find it hard to blame any one president here, for the last 20 years they've all played a role in one way or another and now it's sitting on Biden's doorstep and IMO he needs to address it.

Anyone under the age of 20 has no idea what it was like back then and we're basically sending them back to the stone age, I don't care about democrats vs republicans, we need to do the right thing.

So more war? To be honest, if Biden wanted to say “just kidding we’re not leaving” - now would be the perfect time - the Taliban are out of their holes and out in the open. They could inflict massive casualties on them… but that would probably just lead to another 20 years of them building back up, hiding in the mountains, crossing into Pakistan, etc, etc….

 

[Eric]

So more war? To be honest, if Biden wanted to say “just kidding we’re not leaving” - now would be the perfect time - the Taliban are out of their holes and out in the open. They could inflict massive casualties on them… but that would probably just lead to another 20 years of them building back up, hiding in the mountains, crossing into Pakistan, etc, etc….

I suppose it would be more war in a sense but we were at the point of maintaining control and not in constant battle. I don't disagree but if they put in a quarter of the effort towards properly planning an exit as they did occupying the country we would actually have a strategy in place. Walking out on them with no real plan or notice and leaving all those people at the hands of monsters will create a major humanitarian crisis.

 

[SuperMatt]

I suppose it would be more war in a sense but we were at the point of maintaining control and not in constant battle. I don't disagree but if they put in a quarter of the effort towards properly planning an exit as they did occupying the country we would actually have a strategy in place. Walking out on them with no real plan or notice and leaving all those people at the hands of monsters will create a major humanitarian crisis.

There is no way the US can make the Afghan government popular. They can’t teach loyalty to the Afghan soldiers. Even if the withdrawal was done differently, the Taliban would still try to retake control as soon as we left. Apparently the Afghan army is not willing to give their lives to defend such an unpopular government led by a president who ran away at the first sign of trouble.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Trump’s administration held peace talks with the Taliban and excluded the Afghan government from the talks. Probably because the Afghan government was so weak… but still it looks like the Taliban just used the peace agreement to keep Americans from shooting at them until they left so they could build up their forces and be ready to invade immediately thereafter.

U.S.-Taliban Peace Deal: What to Know

The United States and the Taliban signed an agreement aimed at ending the eighteen-year war in Afghanistan, but many factors could still disrupt the peace process.

www.cfr.org

Look:

At that time, the Afghan Government were the recognised government of the country. When you negotiate with a national authority, you negotiate with the recognised - and legitimate - government of a country.

That is diplomacy.

To do otherwise is not just outrageous, but makes a complete mockery of the rule of law, diplomacy, the norms of international relations.

To exclude them - the (then) Afghan Government - from talks on the future of their country (presumably because they were "weak") is not only unconscionable, insulting, offensive, utterly unprofessional - but - from a practical point of view, served both to undermine the Afghan Government, and to legitimise the Taliban.

Is that really what the US Government (yes, I know - and am fully aware - that this happened under the administration of the loathsome Mr Trump, rather than that of Mr Biden) wants?

To negotiate with terrorists, crimelords, criminals, just because they are powerful, and, in the process, serve to undermine actual legitimate, and internationally recognised, governmental authorities?

 

[Hrafn]

I find it hard to blame any one president here, for the last 20 years they've all played a role in one way or another and now it's sitting on Biden's doorstep and IMO he needs to address it.

Anyone under the age of 20 has no idea what it was like back then and we're basically sending them back to the stone age, I don't care about democrats vs republicans, we need to do the right thing.

I'm sorry, but which is what, exactly? There was no "winning" when we went in under false pretenses, and there is clearly no "winning" in the area at any rate.

 

[SuperMatt]

Look:

At that time, the Afghan Government were the recognised government of the country. When you negotiate with a national authority, you negotiate with the recognised - and legitimate - government of a country.

That is diplomacy.

To do otherwise is not just outrageous, but makes a complete mockery of the rule of law, diplomacy, the norms of international relations.

To exclude them - the (then) Afghan Government - from talks on the future of their country (presumably because they were "weak") is not only unconscionable, insulting, offensive, utterly unprofessional - but - from a practical point of view, served both to undermine the Afghan Government, and to legitimise the Taliban.

Is that really what the US Government (yes, I know - and am fully aware - that this happened under the administration of the loathsome Mr Trump, rather than that of Mr Biden) wants?

To negotiate with terrorists, crimelords, criminals, just because they are powerful, and, in the process, serve to undermine actual legitimate, and internationally recognised, governmental authorities?

I couldn’t agree more - well written and thank you.

Trump‘s decision to negotiate with the Taliban and exclude the official government was not only consistent with his destruction of American diplomacy, but led directly to the situation today.

 

[hulugu]

Maybe our only role in Afghanistan should've been maintaining a low presence to deter a Taliban takeover. Clearly our efforts at building up the government and the army didn't work. But it seems clear the Taliban weren't acting with the threat of an American retaliation hanging over them. As soon as they realized that wasn't going to happen (because of the withdrawal), they took over with swiftness, something they probably could've done years ago.

The original reason we went into Afghanistan was because the country under the Taliban was harboring terrorists like Al Qaeda. Somehow I don't see that no longer being an issue.

Of course, Pakistan is also a haven for terrorists and we don't seem to be doing much about that...

The utter collapse of the Afghanistan army, not only across the country, but in what the former stronghold of the Northern Alliance Mazar-e-Sharif, tells us everything about the situation.

The entire attempt to create a modern military controlled by the central authority in Kabul was a failure, and we were just buying time all these years.

The Biden administration's failure was not to plan for this moment—hoping it was months away, rather than right now. But, this whole enterprise was a failure, and it was screwed up by the Bush-era. Obama spent too much time listening to the counter-insurgency folks, but the "surge" didn't work. And Trump's era was just the cherry on top of this mud pie.

People are right to be mad at Biden, but not because the Taliban took over Afghanistan, but rather that we didn't spend the last six months getting everyone who needed it a ticket the hell out of there.

 

[User.168]

.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Trump spent a lot of time criticising Biden earlier this year for him missing the 1st of May deadline for US troopers leaving Afghanistan. A lot of insults used etc. I’ve just noticed Trump is now calling for Biden to resign if disgrace over the Taliban seizing control of the country. Is this guy for real? He is now blaming his successor for his own failure and is arrogant enough to think nobody blames him for part of this.

America seriously needs to put forward more competent people for this job and not rely on money competitions and popularity contests. I can’t think of any other western democracy that allows anybody to buy their way into a leadership contest with the potential to cause so much damage.

 

[User.168]

.

 

[hulugu]

Trump spent a lot of time criticising Biden earlier this year for him missing the 1st of May deadline for US troopers leaving Afghanistan. A lot of insults used etc. I’ve just noticed Trump is now calling for Biden to resign if disgrace over the Taliban seizing control of the country. Is this guy for real? He is now blaming his successor for his own failure and is arrogant enough to think nobody blames him for part of this.

America seriously needs to put forward more competent people for this job and not rely on money competitions and popularity contests. I can’t think of any other western democracy that allows anybody to buy their way into a leadership contest with the potential to cause so much damage.

It's worse than that, the entire GOP apparatus is now quickly scrubbing away all the articles that praised Pompeo's meeting with the Taliban, and that Trump would create peace in our time by quickly bringing the troops home.

Again, the Biden fuckup is not that the U.S. is withdrawing, or that the Afghan military noped out of fighting for Mazar, but rather that we didn't spend the last 6 months shipping people to the U.S. on Special Interest Visas with a plan to evacuate most others the minute that the Taliban got moving.

We could have stymied this assault with air support, but we agreed to withdraw under Trump.

 

[Huntn]

It seems like a better managed and controlled departure would've been a better solution here. I'm not sure how much was put into that because all we would hear is things like "we don't want them to know when we're leaving" instead of "this plan will take 5 years with a goal of properly handing it off".

As I said, I’m not making excuses for the Biden Administration but I also remember Vietnam, another lost cause. This was a bad situation from the start. Country building where many of the citizens don’t want to be “like us” is a tough sell, unless you want to manage a permanent colony, aka colonialists which takes longer than 20 years.

Afghanistan was controlled as long as we were the bear in the room. As per @Scepticalscribe’s idea to wait for the fighting season to be over, this may have bought the government another 6 months and I think the same thing would have happened. Spread withdrawal out over 5 years and as soon as Afghan forces started losing their grip, it would have been another never ending commitment, in a country that really does not offer any economic advantage, just a trillions dollar sink hole.

The thing is your forces have to have the conviction to fight and in this case it appears the Islamists are the ones with the conviction.

And a lot of us can be pissed we either squandered our sacrifices there by way of lost military lives, or we threw away several fortunes on a lost cause. To be clear I’m not saying Afghanies are a lost cause as a group of people, and the killing going there now makes me feel ill, but I also felt ill when enemies were manufactured with practises like wedding parties being targeted with drone strikes.

I’m saying country building was the lost cause and we lacked the conviction to see it through, and I never wanted to be in another Vietnam. Besides we were supposed to have gained so much wisdom after Vietnam we’d never get into that situation again. Desert Storm seemed to follow that rule. But then it was a Republican Administration who made that choice after 9-11 and the hijackers were not even from Afghanistan and we frick’n invaded Iraq too! Super Fail, poor choices in leadership and everyone pays for our foolishness.

 

[JayMysteri0]

Holy Fuck this is unreal looking!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1427270433083166721/

 

[Eric]

Holy Fuck this is unreal looking!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1427270433083166721/

It's sad and also infuriating. I get that Biden inherited this mess but we're leaving all of those poor people to die at the hands of monsters over a hasty withdrawal that could have been planned and executed much better than this.