Afghanistan (Again)

Huntn said:
I’m saying country building was the lost cause and we lacked the conviction to see it through, and I never wanted to be in another Vietnam. Besides we were supposed to have gained so much wisdom after Vietnam we’d never get into that situation again
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The only thing we learned from Vietnam was to have a volunteer army. An important lesson, but certainly not the only one we could've learned from it.

I'm also not convinced buying the government a few more months would've had a significant impact, but there were many sources indicating that the Taliban would take over within 3 months (and that wasn't considered to be a particularly good scenario either). Apparently there was a Twitter screengrab from the Taliban's own website indicating even they thought it would take three months to retake the country. Jen Psaki was quoted as saying Afghan forces "have what they need", which is ironic but also illustrates the extent to which most of what we did was provide equipment rather than any effective training or organizing. Equipment that will now belong to the Taliban.

A spokesman for the Pentagon said a few days ago, "the narrative that in every place, in every way, the Afghan forces are simply folding up and walking away is not accurate". Except that is accurate and Kabul fell without a fight.
 
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^True. I guess with the U.S. leaving, Afghan soldiers wanted to be on the side that they knew would win. Then I guess I just have to wonder why we even bothered, if they were never going to fight the Taliban in the first place.
 
theSeb said:
I am not sure about the lack of preparation. I reckon they got the supplies and they got the training. They chose not to fight, because they clearly see no cause to fight. The Taliban, on the other hand, have a cause and passion. No amount of training or organising will help when you have people that see no point in doing something
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Totally agree with this, in particular the "Why bother?" vs. cause and passion, the latter will win every time. Without the ongoing boots-on-the-ground and huge tactical advantage of US air support, leaving always meant what we've seen. The fuck up, is knowing this was the planned action and not taking months to remove people and/or setup far better mechanisms to get people out.

Edited to say: both not pre-planning months in advance __and__ underestimating the speed at which the Taliban would take control again, that was a BAD mix.
 
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theSeb said:
Ah well. This is where things get a bit more interesting.

I remembered reading stuff about this quite a long time ago, so I had to try and find something from that era just to confirm my memory was correct



View attachment 8186

www.nytimes.com

U.S. Identifies Vast Mineral Riches in Afghanistan (Published 2010)

The nearly $1 trillion in untapped deposits are enough to fundamentally alter the Afghan economy and perhaps the Afghan war itself, officials said.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

Afghanistan's resources could make it the richest mining region on

Afghanistan, often dismissed in the West as an impoverished and failed state, is sitting on $1 trillion of untapped minerals, according to new calculations from surveys conducted jointly by the Pentagon and the US Geological Survey.
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk

I reckon that lithium is super tasty, especially in the context of the ever increasing needs for it (electric cars etc)
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Well said, @theSeb.

Actually, I had planned to reply in similar terms to @Huntn's remarks.

Anyway, Afghanistan is home to rich deposits (and veins of) lapis lazuli, lithium, rare earth minerals, cobalt and copper among others - I seem to recall that the world's second largest copper mine lies in the country, and the enlightened - impressive, competent and well educated - Afghan governor (Arsala Jamal) who attempted to have it re-opened - and functional, and running, giving much needed employment and economic development in his region, Logar, - was assassinated by the Taliban (in a mosque, if memory serves) while I was in the country.
 
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Herdfan said:
Always wondered why these weren't destroyed.
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From what I could gather, the problem was two fold.

Firstly, it was in the interests of the Taliban to persuade (or compel, or coerce) farmers to grow opium, - actually, cultivate poppies - both for commercial reasons, (they made a lot of money from it), were able to control whole regions - made the farmers both coerced and complicit - and also to encourage addiction among the infidels, with the exported finished product.

And, secondly, even disregarding regions where the Taliban were strong, and encouraged or compelled or coerced farmers to grow poppies, making them complicit in the production of opium, - if we look at regions which were not under the sway of the Taliban, the challenge lay in persuading farmers to grow other crops instead of poppies, that is, crops that were equally remunerative - growing potatoes, for example, won't cut it, not when you have become used to the easy monies available from the cultivation of the poppy which becomes opium. Afghans asked (reasonably) for suggestions as to what they should - or could - grow which would be as remunerative as growing poppies.

Thus, some of the more enlightened NGOs focussed on saffron; it is very profitable - for it is the most expensive spice on the planet - and Afghanistan (lying between the saffron producing countries of Iran and India) has a perfect climate and conditions for the cultivation of saffron.

The quality of the saffron produced in Afghanistan was very high, and some of the NGOs focussed on both female empowerment, & economic independence - saffron is a high maintenance crop, and requires careful cultivation - teaching women to grow, tend, harvest, produce and market saffron - by encouraging the growth of saffron as an equally profitable replacement for opium.

Needless to say, the Taliban were especially incensed by the thought of saffron production (and female empowerment), where the producers would be at least equally well remunerated by growing saffron, (earning at least as much as they would have from cultivating poppies) would be economically independent, - and would not be growing opium (well, poppies), - the funds for which would find their way to Taliban coffers - and deliberately targeted saffron growth initiatives, especially those that supported female empowerment.
 
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I’ve also noticed that most of the worlds media has forgotten the US had allies in Afghanistan, therefore it’s only one country getting the blame for pulling out.
 
The-Real-Deal82 said:
I’ve also noticed that most of the worlds media has forgotten the US had allies in Afghanistan, therefore it’s only one country getting the blame for pulling out.
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The situation was - and the German government today alluded to it - was that the allies were not in a position to keep troops (or police, or civilians) - irrespective of whether or not they wished to be able to remain in place - in the country (Afghanistan) once the security umbrella provided by the presence of US forces (and that included other NATO countries, or third party countries - such as NZ and Canada) was withdrawn.

They didn't have the military resources - or military reach - to do so, and so were unable to protect their own people once the security umbrella that the US presence allowed for, was withdrawn.
 
Herdfan said:
Well, he DOES need to address the nation with something more substantive than what his favorite ice cream flavor is.
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That was so funny I forgot to laugh. By the way, I don’t understand you or McCarthy complaining about him not speaking. He’s already got a speech planned in an hour.

Biden speaks plenty about a lot of things. Maybe they don’t show it on Fox so you don’t know about it? Apparently they just loop a video of him talking about ice cream based on your statement.

If you want to see the speech, you might have to change the station away from Fox - they’ll probably be showing something about CRT or Antifa instead.
 
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SuperMatt said:
He’s already got a speech planned in an hour.


If you want to see the speech, you might have to change the station away from Fox - they’ll probably be showing something about CRT or Antifa instead.
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I just saw that. We will see how he does. But even the more liberal media is absolutely hammering him over this. Not sure if they are mad at him over the mess, or mad because they know how bad it makes him look.

Fox will carry it. But just so you know, my TV hasn't been on FoxNews more than a couple of hours in 2021. I do read their app on occasion, but rarely watch them on TV.
 

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