COVID Stupid

[AG_PhamD]

Because it's political speak with the assumption that your voters are raging idiots. People saying in retrospect that based on the data we had in March 2020 it wasn't the right thing to lockdown, are like people suggesting we should have done a night time off-trail hike without equipment in Grand Canyon, based on doing the easy trail at daylight the next day. DeSantis is already on an offensive blaming public health institutions for policy He enacted, LOL.


It's political speak too. With the majority of american deers having SARS-CoV2 antibodies, we have a large pool of animal vectors, just like with Influenza. I'll prefer this though, over the above form of PS.

Yeah, if there’s one thing that annoys me it’s retrospective judgement when you’re talking about totally novel circumstances. Sure, maybe locking down wasn’t the most effective tactic, but also keep in mind in March 2020 there was very limited preparation- particularly in terms of having needed supplies on hand, like PPE. Artificially delaying the inevitable probably did help buy institutions some time, which likely helped.

I’m curious what your (and others) opinion is on masking in schools- somehow the most controversial topic since abortion.

It appears that the Arizona study the CDC has used to claim 3x higher transmission rates in unmasked schools is quite flawed- though it’s worth noting just because a study is flawed doesn’t mean the general conclusion (that masking makes a significant difference) can’t be wrong.

The WHO doesn’t recommend masks for children under 6 due to safety concerns. The UK has not mandated masks for children under 12. Most of the studies I’ve seen are essentially inclusive in showing any benefit. When you spend 8hrs in a classroom together, I suspect cloth and surgical masks won’t make a huge difference. That said, doing studies like these are not exactly easy to conduct and a number of flawed inconclusive studies isn’t exactly conclusive.

Obviously COVID affects adults (teachers/staff) and children differently. It’s also worth considering that omicron, delta, and alpha have very different implications. And what masks are being required. I keep hearing about N95’s and kids, do they even make them in a kid size?

I don’t see an overly compelling evidence for masks in young children, especially if the consequences are as significant as they say they are. But I’d rather have them deal with masking than go to remote learning.

Maybe masking should be dependent on the level of infection in the community is a good compromise? Rigorous in school testing would be ideal- I think most K-12 schools are doing 1x+ per week.

 

[AG_PhamD]

This story is tangentially related to Covid, but it is all kinds of stupid.

A small group of employees of ThedaCare (a major hospital system) took new jobs at another system, Ascension, which had offered them a better benefits package. ThedaCare got upset about this and convinced a judge to impose an injunction on this move, which now means that these specialists will not be working at either facility until ThedaCare and Ascension can resolve their conflict.

Naturally, these health care specialists had at will jobs at ThedaCare, so how they can get a ruling like this is baffling. They complained about a shortage of healthcare workers, so the solution is to make the shortage even worse.

Apparently, ThedaCare was shown the offers that Ascension had made to these people and responded with something like "Meh, we can't afford to match that." And clearly there were no contracts involved, so the fact that ThedaCare (which is a major provider in the area) can get away with a stunt like this is troubling.

Wow. I figured this had to do with a non-compete clause but the basis of the suit actually has to do with the fact doesn’t have replacement staff and won’t let them leave until they do. I’m curious what law (or contract?) is being enforced here.

I get ThedaCare doesn’t feel they can provide the level of care desired without these people, but the employees gave notice and finding replacements isn’t the employees’ responsibility.

To me, this sounds like ThedaCare is essentially forcing these people to work for them (or not work at all). Finding replacements could theoretically take forever if they offer subpar wages and benefits, presumably locking these employees in forever.

I don’t get the point of this either. 7 of the 11 staff will not be working at either hospital. It’s a lose lose lose situation.

I have speciality certification very few in my general field have- I imagine like these employees (though I am thankfully nowhere near having to deal with acute life/death cases as found in interventional cardiology & radiology). I wonder if my hospital could pull something like this? I enjoy my work and don’t have any plans of leaving though. It’s an interesting thought though.

 

[User.45]

Wow. I figured this had to do with a non-compete clause but the basis of the suit actually has to do with the fact doesn’t have replacement staff and won’t let them leave until they do. I’m curious what law (or contract?) is being enforced here.

I get ThedaCare doesn’t feel they can provide the level of care desired without these people, but the employees gave notice and finding replacements isn’t the employees’ responsibility.

To me, this sounds like ThedaCare is essentially forcing these people to work for them (or not work at all). Finding replacements could theoretically take forever if they offer subpar wages and benefits, presumably locking these employees in forever.

I don’t get the point of this either. 7 of the 11 staff will not be working at either hospital. It’s a lose lose lose situation.

I have speciality certification very few in my general field have- I imagine like these employees (though I am thankfully nowhere near having to deal with acute life/death cases as found in interventional cardiology & radiology). I wonder if my hospital could pull something like this? I enjoy my work and don’t have any plans of leaving though. It’s an interesting thought though.

This techs of any sort are a hot commodity, they'll just go elsewhere. The goal of the suit is to prevent the competitor from getting the techs. Companies that start lawsuits like this need to be penalized.

Yeah, if there’s one thing that annoys me it’s retrospective judgement when you’re talking about totally novel circumstances. Sure, maybe locking down wasn’t the most effective tactic, but also keep in mind in March 2020 there was very limited preparation- particularly in terms of having needed supplies on hand, like PPE. Artificially delaying the inevitable probably did help buy institutions some time, which likely helped.

And now people look at Omicron's mortality and somehow forget that mortality crept up to 10-15% in the first waves. And then they forget that young, healthy people may occasionally want/need access to hospital care for non-COVID stuff too.

I’m curious what your (and others) opinion is on masking in schools- somehow the most controversial topic since abortion.

It appears that the Arizona study the CDC has used to claim 3x higher transmission rates in unmasked schools is quite flawed- though it’s worth noting just because a study is flawed doesn’t mean the general conclusion (that masking makes a significant difference) can’t be wrong.

It's better to actually refer to the articles. It's this one:

In the crude analysis, the odds of a school-associated COVID-19 outbreak in schools with no mask requirement were 3.7 times higher than those in schools with an early mask requirement (odds ratio [OR] = 3.7; 95% CI = 2.2–6.5). After adjusting for potential described confounders, the odds of a school-associated COVID-19 outbreak in schools without a mask requirement were 3.5 times higher than those in schools with an early mask requirement (OR = 3.5; 95% CI = 1.8–6.9).

Association Between K–12 School Mask Policies and School-Associated COVID-19 Outbreaks — Maricopa and Pima Counties, Arizona, July–August 2021

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Kids can wear masks just fine:

RESULTS: The primary outcome was percent of the day that the entire class was wearing their masks appropriately. Of the estimated almost 1000 students and 1048 classroom days reported, the mean percentage of the school day with appropriate mask usage was 76.9%.
CONCLUSIONS: For a majority of the day while conducting in-person instruction, children in grades pre-K-2 are able to adhere to mask wearing as a key mitigation strategy for limiting SARS-CoV2 infection spread and possible future use.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/josh.13033?casa_token=KubFPw80YZYAAAAA:dWkz0N6B3I0AZZ1ia2mROd4noh6_Hw9IKIZe3rwHZqIt_n6lAYoX959x9ejoej9RDfxNxjjeGv7CC1Vj

Masks reduce the social distance required by kids:

Results: Among 251 eligible school districts, 537,336 students and 99,390 staff attended in- person instruction during the 16-week study period, representing 6,400,175 student learning weeks and 1,342,574 staff learning weeks. Student case rates were similar in the 242 districts with ≥3 feet versus ≥6 feet of physical distancing between students (IRR, 0.891, 95% CI, 0.594-1.335); results were similar after adjusting for community incidence (adjusted IRR, 0.904, 95% CI, 0.616-1.325). Cases among school staff in districts with ≥3 feet versus ≥6 feet of physical distancing were also similar (IRR, 1.015, 95% CI, 0.754-1.365).
Conclusions: Lower physical distancing policies can be adopted in school settings with masking mandates without negatively impacting student or staff safety.

The WHO doesn’t recommend masks for children under 6 due to safety concerns. The UK has not mandated masks for children under 12. Most of the studies I’ve seen are essentially inclusive in showing any benefit. When you spend 8hrs in a classroom together, I suspect cloth and surgical masks won’t make a huge difference. That said, doing studies like these are not exactly easy to conduct and a number of flawed inconclusive studies isn’t exactly conclusive.

My kids had been wearing masks since age 2 and have 0 issue doing so for 9-10 hours a day. From an anecdotal perspective the rate of colds we used to get pre and post pandemic is remarkably different, so these interventions make a difference. The fact that I only got a cold once since September is telling.

Obviously COVID affects adults (teachers/staff) and children differently. It’s also worth considering that omicron, delta, and alpha have very different implications. And what masks are being required. I keep hearing about N95’s and kids, do they even make them in a kid size?

I don’t see an overly compelling evidence for masks in young children, especially if the consequences are as significant as they say they are. But I’d rather have them deal with masking than go to remote learning.

The risks are more with developing language and face reading skills. The language part is, US english is super slurred even without masks, but with that extra barrier it's even harder to learn a language. We speak our native language at home and there are no issues with that (we read an hour a day to them), but the kids go to a trilingual school and those languages are much harder.

To mitigate the face reading issues, I started allowing the kids to play unmasked outdoors after vaccines became widely available. We restarted outdoors with Omicron, but once it's warm again and Omicron is down, we'll probably take their masks off outside again.

Maybe masking should be dependent on the level of infection in the community is a good compromise? Rigorous in school testing would be ideal- I think most K-12 schools are doing 1x+ per week.

People would get whiplash about the policy changes. They already have.

 

[AG_PhamD]

This techs of any sort are a hot commodity, they'll just go elsewhere. The goal of the suit is to prevent the competitor from getting the techs. Companies that start lawsuits like this need to be penalized.


And now people look at Omicron's mortality and somehow forget that mortality crept up to 10-15% in the first waves. And then they forget that young, healthy people may occasionally want/need access to hospital care for non-COVID stuff too.


It's better to actually refer to the articles. It's this one:

Association Between K–12 School Mask Policies and School-Associated COVID-19 Outbreaks — Maricopa and Pima Counties, Arizona, July–August 2021

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Kids can wear masks just fine:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/josh.13033?casa_token=KubFPw80YZYAAAAA:dWkz0N6B3I0AZZ1ia2mROd4noh6_Hw9IKIZe3rwHZqIt_n6lAYoX959x9ejoej9RDfxNxjjeGv7CC1Vj

Masks reduce the social distance required by kids:




My kids had been wearing masks since age 2 and have 0 issue doing so for 9-10 hours a day. From an anecdotal perspective the rate of colds we used to get pre and post pandemic is remarkably different, so these interventions make a difference. The fact that I only got a cold once since September is telling.



The risks are more with developing language and face reading skills. The language part is, US english is super slurred even without masks, but with that extra barrier it's even harder to learn a language. We speak our native language at home and there are no issues with that (we read an hour a day to them), but the kids go to a trilingual school and those languages are much harder.

To mitigate the face reading issues, I started allowing the kids to play unmasked outdoors after vaccines became widely available. We restarted outdoors with Omicron, but once it's warm again and Omicron is down, we'll probably take their masks off outside again.


People would get whiplash about the policy changes. They already have.

I’ll get to the rest of your post and take a look at your article a bit later, but I’m not sure if you’ve seen the discussion of the flawed methodology regarding the AZ study, largely brought to light in this article: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/12/mask-guidelines-cdc-walensky/621035/

I generally don’t pay much attention to the conventional media’s interpretation of studies as it’s usually garbage, but this is rather interesting and appears thoroughly investigated.

 

[User.45]

I’ll get to the rest of your post and take a look at your article a bit later, but I’m not sure if you’ve seen the discussion of the flawed methodology regarding the AZ study, largely brought to light in this article: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/12/mask-guidelines-cdc-walensky/621035/

I generally don’t pay much attention to the conventional media’s interpretation of studies as it’s usually garbage, but this is rather interesting and appears thoroughly investigated.

That's a lot of fixation on the numbers presented in a very rough analysis that clearly had a very limited scope and prioritized expedience over accuracy. The Bengali study they refer to in the Atlantic article shows that just handing out masks tripled masking compliance (which still only peaked at 42% and dropped to ~22% after 5 months), and the data was less consistent in the cloth masks group. My interpretation of skimming that very complex study is that the ~10% risk reduction of symptomatic COVID would actually be way higher at higher compliance levels (and compliance was best increased by handing out masks). I think at that level it's generally not a filtration, but an adequate use and comfort question. Single-use surgical masks are really the most comfortable (if you have an occipital strap so it doesn't pull on your ears).

I can tell you that preschoolers are way better at wearing their masks appropriately than a bunch of whiny adults.

AAAS

www.science.org

 

[SuperMatt]

This story is tangentially related to Covid, but it is all kinds of stupid.

A small group of employees of ThedaCare (a major hospital system) took new jobs at another system, Ascension, which had offered them a better benefits package. ThedaCare got upset about this and convinced a judge to impose an injunction on this move, which now means that these specialists will not be working at either facility until ThedaCare and Ascension can resolve their conflict.

Naturally, these health care specialists had at will jobs at ThedaCare, so how they can get a ruling like this is baffling. They complained about a shortage of healthcare workers, so the solution is to make the shortage even worse.

Apparently, ThedaCare was shown the offers that Ascension had made to these people and responded with something like "Meh, we can't afford to match that." And clearly there were no contracts involved, so the fact that ThedaCare (which is a major provider in the area) can get away with a stunt like this is troubling.

Yet another example of the American judiciary trampling on workers and giving corporations whatever they want. In my opinion, this is the most worrisome trend of the conservative courts in the past few decades. They may side with liberals on some social issues, but they are almost 100% on siding with companies over people. Add to that their wrongful belief that they know more about public health than the experts at the agency created to protect it… This is a very dangerous court to the health and prosperity of Americans.

 

[SuperMatt]

The anti-vax crowd, led by Robert F Kennedy, is marching in Washington, DC today.

Organizers of the the anti-vaccine 'Defeat the Mandates' rally in DC are nervous that it will 'get out of hand'

Organizers of Sunday's anti-vaccine mandate rally appear nervous that the event could turn violent, social media messages show.

news.yahoo.com

Thousands of anti-vaccine mandate activists are expected to attend the "Defeat the Mandates: American Homecoming" rally on the National Mall in Washington, DC, on Sunday.

According to the organizers, more than 24,000 people have said they're going to the demonstration. It starts in the morning at the Washington Monument and ends in the afternoon at the Lincoln Memorial.

Law enforcement officials have already beefed up security for the large-scale protest, per CNN, due to fears that it could attract extremist groups.

And it appears that the event organizers themselves are also nervous that the event, which is intended to be peaceful, could escalate into chaos akin to the Capitol riot on January 6, 2021.

When organizers of most right-wing events are worried the attendees will commit violence, shouldn‘t alarm bells be going off for the right?

 

[User.45]

The anti-vax crowd, led by Robert F Kennedy, is marching in Washington, DC today.

Organizers of the the anti-vaccine 'Defeat the Mandates' rally in DC are nervous that it will 'get out of hand'

Organizers of Sunday's anti-vaccine mandate rally appear nervous that the event could turn violent, social media messages show.

news.yahoo.com

When organizers of most right-wing events are worried the attendees will commit violence, shouldn‘t alarm bells be going off for the right?

Are they White?

 

[fooferdoggie]

After the incident is when the threats to library staff members over the library's mask policy began.

"Unfortunately, the incident kind of escalated from that day, and that, as I said before, voicemails and emails started, and the library felt that at this time we're going to take a pause," Craig said.

St. Charles library temporarily closes in-person services after threats over mask policy​

St. Charles library temporarily closes in-person services after threats over mask policy

Police were called after a group of about 35 to 40 adults and children stormed inside the building and refused to wear masks.

abc7chicago.com

 

[fooferdoggie]

Washington D.C. Covid-19 mandate protesters march to music from Meat Loaf. Eric Clapton inconsolable
Demonstrators have descended upon Washington D.C. to protest against COVID mandates -- and, ironically, they’re blasting music from someone who just succumbed to the virus.

Thousands of people flooded into the National Mall Sunday and gathered at the base of both the Washington Monument and even more packed in front of the Lincoln Memorial ... and wouldn’t you know it, they were playing a Meat Loaf song to get themselves fired up.
The tune blaring over the speakers was ML’s “I’d Do Anything for Love” -- which we suppose is sorta in theme with what the anti-mandate crowd was there for. Song’s all about how one guy would do a lot for a woman he loves, but has a line he won’t cross ... which, presumably, applies to their attitudes toward federal and local policies?

Meat Loaf Cameos At Anti-Mandate Protest in D.C., Thousands Attend

Meat Loaf himself wasn't a big fan of vaccine mandates, which he made known before his death.

www.tmz.com

 

[fooferdoggie]

Who started calling it "the jab"? I understand that jab means to poke, but it's a fucking shot. Call it a shot.

If you call it "the jab" we can't be friends.

it is what they call shots in the uk.

 

[SuperMatt]

Incredible posts lately @fooferdoggie …. This world is a strange place

 

[AG_PhamD]

Here’s something incredibly stupid- price gouging,: I received an email today from a sales rep of medical supplier we used in the past to purchase rapid antigen and antibody tests from.

This company evidently is out of stock of the medical rapid antigen tests (exact same tests sold to consumers except 1/2 the price and you need to have CLIA license or CLIA waiver to order them- this is another instance of stupidity with our regulatory agencies during COVID). This vendor are however selling OTC/consumer rapid tests…

Here is the pricing she gave me;

• FlowFlex OTC Rapid Antigen COVID-19 Test Order Now
  • 1-99 $29.90
  • 100+ $26.00
  • 200+ $25.00
  • 640+ $23
  • 1280+ $21
  • 5000+ $19.99

If you’re not aware, unlike all the other US OTC kits with two tests, FlowFlex only includes ONE test… So this company is trying to charge $30/test.

CVS selling FlowFlex for $9.99- available for order online today. iHealth is shipping directly to consumers and in bulk for $8.99/test (In fact bought some of these a while back for $6.99/test). Even the most expensive OTC tests at major retailers are max $15/test.

My response to this sales pitch was pretty scathing. I warned the rep that this situation (charging 3x the normal price, even when buying 100 tests) has the appearance of price gouging. COVID tests are specifically mentioned as an essential commodity in the state they operate in, making price gouging illegal.

I can’t imagine anyone would pay for this but someone must be if they’re trying.

 

[DT]

Our child, 13 has worn a mask for 2 years, has had zero issues, wears (and carries an extra) every day at school, zero complaints, she's awesome.

 

[rdrr]

Here’s something incredibly stupid- price gouging,: I received an email today from a sales rep of medical supplier we used in the past to purchase rapid antigen and antibody tests from.

This company evidently is out of stock of the medical rapid antigen tests (exact same tests sold to consumers except 1/2 the price and you need to have CLIA license or CLIA waiver to order them- this is another instance of stupidity with our regulatory agencies during COVID). This vendor are however selling OTC/consumer rapid tests…

Here is the pricing she gave me;


If you’re not aware, unlike all the other US OTC kits with two tests, FlowFlex only includes ONE test… So this company is trying to charge $30/test.

CVS selling FlowFlex for $9.99- available for order online today. iHealth is shipping directly to consumers and in bulk for $8.99/test (In fact bought some of these a while back for $6.99/test). Even the most expensive OTC tests at major retailers are max $15/test.

My response to this sales pitch was pretty scathing. I warned the rep that this situation (charging 3x the normal price, even when buying 100 tests) has the appearance of price gouging. COVID tests are specifically mentioned as an essential commodity in the state they operate in, making price gouging illegal.

I can’t imagine anyone would pay for this but someone must be if they’re trying.

FYI, Looks like iHealth is a scam site.

iHealth Labs, Inc | Better Business Bureau® Profile

This organization is not BBB accredited. Health and Medical Products in San Jose, CA. See BBB rating, reviews, complaints, & more.

www.bbb.org

 

[Thomas Veil]

FYI, Looks like iHealth is a scam site.

iHealth Labs, Inc | Better Business Bureau® Profile

This organization is not BBB accredited. Health and Medical Products in San Jose, CA. See BBB rating, reviews, complaints, & more.

www.bbb.org

LOL at that company's location. Looks like the crows have come home to roost.

 

[fooferdoggie]

could not happen to a smarter person.

Sarah Palin Catches Covid For Second Time After Saying She'd Get Vaccine 'Over Her Dead Body'​

Sarah Palin Catches Covid For Second Time After Saying She'd Get Vaccine 'Over Her Dead Body'

Sarah Palin Catches Covid For Second Time After Saying She'd Get Vaccine 'Over Her Dead Body'

www.unilad.co.uk

 

[AG_PhamD]

FYI, Looks like iHealth is a scam site.

iHealth Labs, Inc | Better Business Bureau® Profile

This organization is not BBB accredited. Health and Medical Products in San Jose, CA. See BBB rating, reviews, complaints, & more.

www.bbb.org

No, they are very much a real company and their tests are sold at major retailers. iHealthLabs is the manufacturer of one of the relatively few FDA approved COVID tests.

https://www.fda.gov/media/153925/download

https://www.fda.gov/media/153922/download

I will say I ordered 20 kits from them on 12/27 and they said the order shipped 12/28 “via FedEx” yet the tracking never updated… come to find out because it was actually a UPS tracking number. It was supposed to take 4-10 days to deliver. Delivery did not occur until Jan 16th.

They did have a statement on their site that orders made after some date (very early Jan IIRC) would be delayed.

If you read the reviews, I suspect a lot of the people had similar experiences to mine. Complaining about a 6 month expiration on COVID tests is a bit much… all the On/Go tests I’ve seen have 4 months expirations. Not being able to communicate due to staffing is also isn’t unheard of, especially in late 2021/early 2022.

As for the complaints of ordering masks and not getting them in the designated time frame, maybe their logistics were just overloaded, which is apparently what happened with their COVID tests- company specifically cited here:

Worker shortages, flight delays contributing to slow delivery of rapid tests

With millions of COVID-19 rapid tests ready for distribution in the U.S., delays in delivery are being caused by warehouse bottlenecks and worker shortages.

abcnews.go.com

That said at the beginning of the pandemic, there were tons of greedy companies who claimed to have PPE, hand sanitizer, etc in stock only to have it on order- so people wouldn’t get their orders for months. So there could be some of that going on, perhaps with the masks, less likely with the COVID tests considering the government oversight.

It looks like iHealth Labs was founded in 2010 and basically just sold cheap glucometers, pulse oximeters, and BP cuffs. Then somehow they got into selling masks and eventually marketing a COVID test. They probably went from have very stable business to having an overwhelming amount with no idea how to handle it. I know they do a lot of big contracts with schools, governments, retail stores, etc, so dealing with small orders is probably not the top priority.

I’m not saying it’s a well run business and if you buy from them I would anticipate having to wait longer than indicated, but I wouldn’t call it a scam website.

Keep in mind people typically don’t report favorable experiences to the BBB. Abbott has a rating of 1.08 and 38 complaints in the past year. But they’re worth 220B and have been in business for well over 100 years.

 

[User.45]

COVID Data Tracker

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.

covid.cdc.gov

Vaccination makes you 20 years younger...at least when it comes to risk of dying from COVID

 

[Yoused]

'Over Her Dead Body'

oh man oh man oh man

(not gonna say it)