FBI executed search warrant at Mar-a-Lago

Jesse Watters show on Fox may be worse than Tucker Carlson’s. Truly insane stuff this evening. “Garland Treated Unibomber Better Than Trump”. “FBI Has History of Corruption” and stuff like that. Truly insane stuff. They are throwing so much stuff at the wall right now, no coherent argument whatsoever. Like, their gaslighting and lies usually at least has some sort of common theme to it. They have none of that going for them right now, it’s just not nonstop smears, lies and misinformation with no theme or common thread.
Can someone please explain to me what these Fox people are doing right now. Do they not care at all that they are tearing the country apart with their outrageous claims? What is their motivation? It's one thing to be conservative but with Trump they have someone who incited an actual violent attack on the Capitol in order to seize power and who now is found to have illegally removed highly classified documents from the White House jeopardizing the national security. And yet they still support him and are instead attacking the DOJ and FBI.

They were okay with his ignorance, his compulsive lying and moral bankruptcy, but Is there no threshold beyond which they won't go? Is Rupert Murdoch enjoying watching the turmoil and laughing all the way to the bank knowing he can return to Australia if things get really bad here? Are these Fox hosts stupid enough to really believe their nonsense, and if not why are they doing it? They could easily walk away from Trump and put their support behind DeSantis or someone else of like mind.
 
Can someone please explain to me what these Fox people are doing right now. Do they not care at all that they are tearing the country apart with their outrageous claims? What is their motivation? It's one thing to be conservative but with Trump they have someone who incited an actual violent attack on the Capitol in order to seize power and who now is found to have illegally removed highly classified documents from the White House jeopardizing the national security. And yet they still support him and are instead attacking the DOJ and FBI.

They were okay with his ignorance, his compulsive lying and moral bankruptcy, but Is there no threshold beyond which they won't go? Is Rupert Murdoch enjoying watching the turmoil and laughing all the way to the bank knowing he can return to Australia if things get really bad here? Are these Fox hosts stupid enough to really believe their nonsense, and if not why are they doing it? They could easily walk away from Trump and put their support behind DeSantis or someone else of like mind.
I doubt most Fox hosts truly believe what they're saying, though much of their audience does. They're in it for the money, and perhaps the recognition from Trump and his supporters. Their wealth has largely shielded them from the consequences of their actions. Like most of the Republican party, hypocrisy means nothing to them — remember when they decried vaccination mandates at the same time their company required them?
 
First, if the documents were indeed declassified that would presumably blow this whole case up as the warrant application would have relevant omitted information. That said, Trump can’t just declare declassification like Michael Scott (and Alex Jones) declaring bankruptcy. There is a process that must occur. This could surely become a mess if Trump defense claims this is just all one big clerical error.

Guilt under any of the three statutes listed on the warrant does not depend on whether or not the documents were classified. None of the three criminal statutes mention document classification at all.

Even if there are additional statutes mentioned in the affidavit that do require classification, what Trump does with one hand Biden can undo with the other. By the time the DoJ subpoenaed the documents they surely would have been “reclassified,” and Trump refusing to return them would then still be chargeable under these other statutes.


That said, if the reporting about Trump being in possession of classified nuclear information is correct… that would be very hard to justify and raises the question why such documents would be declassified or removed and would be highly incriminating. So I am a little skeptical to the accuracy of this reporting- are they technical documents or strategy related or is it something else classified that mentions unclassified nuclear info. I guess we’ll see… or maybe never.

Additionally, there is some evidence that the supposedly “declassified” documents were being treated with at least a little security - locked up, etc. This is evidence Trump knew these were not declassified documents.


Another concern that could potentially feed into the Trump prosecution narrative is just how open ended the search warrant was. It’s my understanding they could basically search anywhere Trump and his team operated and could seize any government documents from his time in office. This will surely feed into the fishing expedition talking point.

That is a standard search warrant. It specified a time range for the documents, the types of documents to be seized, and specified that they could be seized from wherever they were stored. There would be no other way to draft a search warrant that would still be assured of retrieving these documents, many of which are apparently among the most sensitive types of documents the government has.


I could care less about the connection with lawyer representing Epstein employees, now judge/magistrate that signed off on the warrant- who btw despite internet myth was not appointed by Trump and that’s not even how that works. I do think it doesn’t look good that he had previously refused himself in another Trump case.

The fact that he admitted to a possible appearance of conflict due to a Clinton relationship in a case involving Clinton does not mean there is a basis to recuse himself from a different matter that involves trump but does not involve Clinton.


There is also a lot of comparison to the Clinton email scandal. Clinton did have top secret documents on her email server and destroyed allegedly another 30,000 off the server as well as cell phones.

No, she is not alleged to have destroyed 30,000 top secret documents on her email server.

Possessing classified data is one thing and running an email server presumably to avoid oversight is one thing, there have been others in the past who have done this and I will say it does not look good. Destroying evidence while you’re being investigated is another thing entirely. So that’s not helping the DOJ here. Though I think it’s fair to make an argument the raid to retrieve evidence was justified based on the so called mistakes made in the Clinton case.

Who presumes she used a private server “to avoid oversight?”
 
Most of us will never know the details, nor should we. To the extent the documents themselves or even just the supporting affidavit reveal what the government knows and suggest how that information was obtained, disclosure could cause significant harm. The DOJ is also constrained by the rules around criminal investigations, especially if a Grand Jury is involved.

We are way past the point where "optics" should guide what the DOJ does for fear of riling up Trump's supporters or contributing to erosion of faith in institutions. People like Ricky W. Shiffer, who attacked the FBI office in Cincinnati, won't be appeased or convinced no matter what.

I don't see how Hillary Clinton's email debacle — and I'll readily admit she made some horrible choices — can be rightfully compared to what Trump is alleged to have done, without considering the overall context of their records. Like her or hate her, Clinton was a public servant who wasn't accused of willfully providing sensitive national security information to our adversaries, not to mention the almost endless litany of harmful actions Trump took during his tenure.

I don’t expect we’ll know the details of the affidavit or precisely what documents were taken, or at least for quite some time. Then again our government tends to leak like sieve so who knows.

I do think optics are important, at least to an extent. Obviously in some cases things are just unable to be avoided. And some of the issues I mentioned go beyond optics and fall into ethics and maintaining the integrity of the investigation (ie a magistrate who previously refused himself on a Trump case and has publicly made negative comments). I’m not a lawyer but that seems like a Pandora’s box. And I think optics are especially important if you don’t want another January 6th on our hands.

To be clear the espionage act also included improper handling of government documents. AFAIK there is no public evidence Trump was planning on dealing in government secrets with foreign countries. Clinton was considered being charged under the espionage act. Would I put it past Trump to sell government secrets- sadly I wouldn’t be surprised. That’s what can happen when you elect a shady conman with zero moral compass and pathological narcissism. I also wouldn’t be surprised if this was setup by the Trump administration as a ploy concocted to falsely lure the FBI into a fruitless investigation to appear unfairly prosecuted and distract from numerous his other problems- in which case it seems like fraud/conspiracy/perjury charges would be in order.

Re: Hillary Politics aside (and to be clear I didn’t vote for either Trump or Clinton, they’re both swamp creatures), I do think there is a serious problem with running your own email server to conduct government business and then destroying evidence during an investigation. And let’s not forget the potential of foreign influence via the Clinton Foundation, which thankfully and rightfully Clinton eventually suspended donations from during her campaign. People love to take sides based on political tribalism and not but the reality is if you or I did that we’d probably have been prosecuted. If I did similar things with medical records at a minimum I’d be out of a job, fined into bankruptcy, and probably lose my license.
All that’s to say Trump didn’t commit crimes and should be prosecuted. The facts will have to bear that out. It’s kind of amazing how the media of both sides takes a couple morsels of knowledge and extrapolates into a giant speculative narrative. Color me skeptical being told “the walls are closing in for good” for the umteenth time only for nothing to come to fruition.

I have no idea if this will bring about the end of Trump. I have my doubts January 6th will either despite my belief his actions (and lack of actions) should be obvious disqualifications to any voter. Personally I think his efforts to over through the election result stands the best chance.

And I think you are right- as I have stated before in the eyes of Trumpsters he can do no wrong, or at least the ends justify the means. Even if one agrees with Trumps political platform, I cannot fathom why you’d want to elect someone with so much baggage who will inevitably be bogged down by it if elected.
 
Guilt under any of the three statutes listed on the warrant does not depend on whether or not the documents were classified. None of the three criminal statutes mention document classification at all.

Even if there are additional statutes mentioned in the affidavit that do require classification, what Trump does with one hand Biden can undo with the other. By the time the DoJ subpoenaed the documents they surely would have been “reclassified,” and Trump refusing to return them would then still be chargeable under these other statutes.




Additionally, there is some evidence that the supposedly “declassified” documents were being treated with at least a little security - locked up, etc. This is evidence Trump knew these were not declassified documents.




That is a standard search warrant. It specified a time range for the documents, the types of documents to be seized, and specified that they could be seized from wherever they were stored. There would be no other way to draft a search warrant that would still be assured of retrieving these documents, many of which are apparently among the most sensitive types of documents the government has.




The fact that he admitted to a possible appearance of conflict due to a Clinton relationship in a case involving Clinton does not mean there is a basis to recuse himself from a different matter that involves trump but does not involve Clinton.




No, she is not alleged to have destroyed 30,000 top secret documents on her email server.



Who presumes she used a private server “to avoid oversight?”

Good point about the classification/reclassification.

Source on the the fact the judge recused himself due to a Clinton COA? From what I’ve read a reason was never officially stated. He did make negative comments about Trump- not exactly sure what those comments were. I don’t believe that necessarily precludes him from signing off on the warrant- but all these details don’t look great. Why not just find a judge:magistrate without such a history?

I didn’t mean to imply she deleted 30,000 top secret files. Rather she had highly classified documents and in addition deleted 30,000 emails the contents of which we will never know, along with devices which may have containied some of those emails.

Why else would you run a private server for governmental purposes? Especially when government officials are strictly educated on how to handle government documents and communications? If Trump did this I would be saying the exact same thing and I suspect you’d would too.
 
And I think optics are especially important if you don’t want another January 6th on our hands.

I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter what they do. Any move made against Trump, no matter how justified, carries the inherent risk of catalyzing another Jan. 6th style incident.

Our only choices are to kowtow to the mob, or do what needs to be done.
 
Can someone please explain to me what these Fox people are doing right now. Do they not care at all that they are tearing the country apart with their outrageous claims? What is their motivation? It's one thing to be conservative but with Trump they have someone who incited an actual violent attack on the Capitol in order to seize power and who now is found to have illegally removed highly classified documents from the White House jeopardizing the national security. And yet they still support him and are instead attacking the DOJ and FBI.

They were okay with his ignorance, his compulsive lying and moral bankruptcy, but Is there no threshold beyond which they won't go? Is Rupert Murdoch enjoying watching the turmoil and laughing all the way to the bank knowing he can return to Australia if things get really bad here? Are these Fox hosts stupid enough to really believe their nonsense, and if not why are they doing it? They could easily walk away from Trump and put their support behind DeSantis or someone else of like mind.
My dad brought up pretty much exactly this. They're playing with gas and fire. Trying to get the Trumpets all riled up. I swear they're trying to start another January 6th or even worse.
 
My dad brought up pretty much exactly this. They're playing with gas and fire. Trying to get the Trumpets all riled up. I swear they're trying to start another January 6th or even worse.

What you don’t understand is that Both Sides are The Same™. I mean, sure, you have the one guy who brought nuclear secrets to a mansion that he is not legally allowed to live in so that he could hand them over to a Russian dictator while arguing that anyone who disagrees with him is an enemy of the people so everyone should revolt against the government and install his family as a permanent line of dictators, but on the other side you have a lady whose I.T. guy deleted some emails about lunch orders and a guy whose son made some money by telling people his dad was vice president. What? The first guy ripped up and flushed evidence that he gave the orders for an insurrection and has a son-in-law who traded top secret information for a multi-billion dollar loan from a foreign dictator? Well, that doesn’t matter.
 
I wonder if this is the same lawyer who’s been flailing on Fox as much as Trump - the same one who let slip Trump had a better view of the raid from New York than she did, and who admitted on TV she hadn’t discussed with Trump whether he did or didn’t possess documents pertaining to nuclear information.

Both of those statements will come back to bite them on any potential Trump defenses.
Trump only hires the best lawyers.
 
My dad brought up pretty much exactly this. They're playing with gas and fire. Trying to get the Trumpets all riled up. I swear they're trying to start another January 6th or even worse.
Yes, so irresponsible. They seem unable to step back and listen to themselves. One of these days they'll overstep the bounds of protected speech, possibly. Some of their commentary sails perilously close to the wind, the way they seem to encourage Trump fans taking exception to the DoJ and FBI behavior in the matter of the Mar a Lago search warrant and investigation. Fox needs to make it far more clear they don't support threats nor commission of political violence. Some of the commentary they air falls way short of that, and it's not really mitigated by occasional disclaimers because stuff gets taken out of context and shoved onto social media in snippets. Disclaimers are not in that material.

I doubt most Fox hosts truly believe what they're saying, though much of their audience does. They're in it for the money, and perhaps the recognition from Trump and his supporters. Their wealth has largely shielded them from the consequences of their actions. Like most of the Republican party, hypocrisy means nothing to them — remember when they decried vaccination mandates at the same time their company required them?
Agreed. The thing is, arsonists in nice clothes are still arsonists. I loathe these edge-walking fire setters.
 
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What I don't get is how he managed to export entire sets of documents with highest levels of sensitivity. It's not like they could have been left lying around in desk drawers. Security must have been involved in their removal somehow. Surely that angle is being pursued in the course of DoJ's investigation.
Maybe someone on staff reported that a secret order came from Trump to remove those boxes over there (specially packed) In his household goods shipment. What I don’t know is if the White House basement includes a classified documents skiff, facility for storing classified docs. The ones I was familiar with was not a cabinet but a room, where ID had to be verified before admittance. I’ll assume it does, which means it is staffed 24 hours, so unless you had a bunch of people in on this, It seems to be difficult to remove a significant quantity of classified material and no one noticing this. Documents when I was in this environment, had to be checked out and in. There was also a protocol to monitor the making of copies, at least that is now I remember it. There was probably an insider tip. :unsure:
 
tbh I don't get why some of these pols figure it nets them anything to be telling such baldfaced lies.

Here Rubio is being corrected after just flat making stuff up on live TV. He's a US Senator and a past and possibly a future presidential candidate. Nowadays he's casually autopiloting false talking points, just to kiss Trump's ring, I suppose because not enough rats have started to jump off the afterdeck of the dirty scow USS Donald J. Trump quite yet.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1557227340270288896/
 
But why would they want chaos and violence unless they're acting as agents of a foreign government?
Because they're plain horses' asses? The network's willingness to make a buck has occluded any sense of responsibility for influence on the actions of their viewership.
 
Good point about the classification/reclassification.

Source on the the fact the judge recused himself due to a Clinton COA? From what I’ve read a reason was never officially stated. He did make negative comments about Trump- not exactly sure what those comments were. I don’t believe that necessarily precludes him from signing off on the warrant- but all these details don’t look great. Why not just find a judge:magistrate without such a history?

I didn’t mean to imply she deleted 30,000 top secret files. Rather she had highly classified documents and in addition deleted 30,000 emails the contents of which we will never know, along with devices which may have containied some of those emails.

Why else would you run a private server for governmental purposes? Especially when government officials are strictly educated on how to handle government documents and communications? If Trump did this I would be saying the exact same thing and I suspect you’d would too.

What is the difference between running a private e-mail server or using your private email for official government business like Jared and Ivanka?
 
But why would they want chaos and violence unless they're acting as agents of a foreign government?
Nah. They are the minority. They cannot win national elections and a national majority if everyone votes and every vote is counted. So long term they are doomed. Their solution is to cast democracy aside, to lie about what the other side does, etc. The truth does not help them.
 
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