FBI executed search warrant at Mar-a-Lago

[lizkat]

I won't argue the "optics" on this aren't horrible and may even prevent the DOJ from trying to prosecute Trump. But I'd rather see both he and Biden suffer the legal consequences than Trump get off scot-free.

That has kind of been my point all along.

I started out by saying that and meant it.

Still, I reject attempts of Rs to equate the level of "criminality" of Trump and Biden in the case of retained documents... because so will the prosecutors.

Trump has made things incredibly more difficult for himself in legal terms by his obstinacy, even trying to entangle some of his lawyers in making false sworn statements about the extent to which "compliance" had been achieved.

 

[Herdfan]

I believe this as well. Garland is holding a press event at 1:15 where he is expected to announce a special investigation into the Biden case.

And you are correct. A Special Counsel has been appointed:

Special counsel named to probe classified records found at Biden's private home and office

Special counsels have been named by Attorney General Merrick Garland investigate classified records found at homes of President Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

www.cnbc.com

 

[shadow puppet]

But Biden is senile according to Trump, so he can't be responsible for the documents. Trump, on the other hand, is a very stable genius so he should be held responsible.

I'm dead.

 

[Roller]

I see the special counsel is Robert Hur. Too bad it wasn't Ben Hur — the chariot race would have been fun.

 

[Eric]

Every former president now when asked if they have classified documents.

 

[Eric]

We'll see how all of this plays out. It seems like had Trump actually cooperated with them when they repeatedly asked for documents there would have been no raid and likely no charges, what separates him out here is that he was deliberately withholding.

 

[Pumbaa]

Every former president now when asked if they have classified documents.

Yes, it would be interesting if some journalists looked into how common or uncommon this is.

 

[rdrr]

Yes, it would be interesting if some journalists looked into how common or uncommon this is.

This is not a reply on Trumps intentions or guilt (he obviously obstructed justice)...

How does the intelligence community hand out classified documents and not have control of who has them? I guess there is always the chance someone will make copies, but you would think that there is some sort of mechanism where you are suppose to return them, and maybe be asked if there were any copies made? I mean a Library can keep track of the books it lends out...

Seems like a failure, and possibly a need for some oversight in the intelligence field. Maybe I am be too naive on how complex of a problem this is.

 

[lizkat]

Yes, it would be interesting if some journalists looked into how common or uncommon this is.

Well when Trump started up with "her emails" during his campaign against Clinton, some journos began to look into how common it was for other secretaries of state to have had circuitous ways of accessing their mail (some of which was classified) and found out that because of some of the remote locations where an SoS or other cabinet members could be when trying to lasso their mail traffic, various of them had rather roundabout ways of getting that done. But hey "her emails"... ended up the only point of multiple GOP investigations.

I find it interesting that the Rs kept hammering on Clinton even after prosecutors said what she had done was inappropriate but did not warrant a criminal case. Yet the Rs went crazy with faux outrage when Trump was impeached the first time for abuse of power in withholding military aid to Ukraine because he hoped to dangle its release in front of Zelenskyy in exchange for digging up dirt on Joe Biden... and the second time when Trump was impeached for having incited an insurrection that hoped to overturn a sitting government to prevent the freely elected Biden-Harris team from transition to power.

And now the Rs threaten to investigate Biden 24/7 because... they have the House gavel. Their tactics are not helping them win a broader electorate, yet they persist in pleasing the MAGA crowd and other Fox news viewers by putting on a circus. Go figure. By 2024 they will have done more poorly than expected in four straight elections. No wonder they keep trying to pass state laws to help them cheat their way over the finish line.

 

[ronntaylor]

And you are correct. A Special Counsel has been appointed:

Because Garland is easily punked by right wingers. Mango lied, obstructed and whined for several months before a SC became involved. Garland acted within two months in the case of Biden even though there was no obstruction and any documents were returned.

At this point, I'm waiting for Clinton (Bill), Bush The Younger and Obama to announce the discovery of sensitive documents in their possessions. And possibly some high-level presidential staffers from the recent past). There appears to be sloppy administrative oversight. And I have no doubt that Mango's transgressions were deliberate and nefarious. Smith will get to the bottom of it. Hur, although a Republican appointee, appears to be nonpartisan in his work and life. So we'll see what he reports on the Biden doc probe.

 

[lizkat]

Because Garland is easily punked by right wingers. Mango lied, obstructed and whined for several months before a SC became involved. Garland acted within two months in the case of Biden even though there was no obstruction and any documents were returned.

At this point, I'm waiting for Clinton (Bill), Bush The Younger and Obama to announce the discovery of sensitive documents in their possessions. And possibly some high-level president staffers from the recent past). There appears to sloppy administrative oversight. And I have no doubt that Mango's transgressions were deliberate and nefarious. Smith will get to the bottom of it. Hur, although a Republican appointee, appears to be nonpartisan in his work and life. So we'll see what he reports on the Biden doc probe.

Let's not forget about Trump's penchant for just ripping sh^t up when he doesn't like it. Apparently some of his staff spent a lot of time dutifully taping bits of paper back together for the National Archives. Remains to be seen if he "destroyed or mutilated" any classified or otherwise sensitive paperwork.

 

[GermanSuplex]

Biden's problem is that the headlines are the same, and the fundamentals are the same. Government property going to people's offices and homes, missing from the Archives.

Despite the CLEAR differences in circumstances in the cases, which as we've discussed are how charges are determined, that won't help with the political talking points. It's going to be Trump got caught with docs, Biden got caught with docs. Trump had some in an office, Biden had some in an office. Trump had them at home, Biden had them at home. It shows the Archives and Federal Government need to get their sh*t together, and quick.

In a time of less political divide, these stories would be less exciting and general consensus in the press and public would be "yeah, that's serious and intentional" or "that seems like an honest mistake", and each case would be handled as such and reported on as such. Those days are LONG gone. The right will think Trump's case could have been an accident and/or justified, and the left is showing hypocrisy with their defense of Biden. The left thinks Trump was acting intentionally and maliciously and Biden is probably just a busy guy and this is all an accident. The left is highlighting that Biden is cooperating, but the right also said that Trump was cooperating. All the debates in these threads don't change the fact that whatever processes or enforcement of rules/laws that govern the handling of the documents - the entire process from storage to distribution - is screwed up, and we've now found ourselves in a situation where two consecutive presidents are being simultaneously investigated for similar breaches of protocol and laws. The headlines and coverage of these stories are going to reflect the partisan nature of the news networks, and government incompetency combined with a real shitty political climate means the right has all the tools it needs to counter the documents case against Trump in the court of public opinion (and maybe even the actual courts). They were already willing to do that anyways, no matter how bad the case against Trump was or how blatantly criminal. But now, they'll have a plausible counter to make Trump look like a martyr.

I would like to see the DoJ just say "screw it" and charge or not charge whomever they see fit, and push for bipartisan passing of new laws to clarify and better enforce policy on these types of matters going forward, and have better systems in place for charging government officials with crimes. Doesn't matter if they charge Trump and not Biden, Biden and not Trump, both, or neither. They just need to move forward where the facts of the laws take them and not worry about the reaction of the public or congress, because they're never going to please everyone anyways. But at least then we'd have a legal precedent.

Trump's entire term was like a constant push against ethics, norms, procedures and laws that didn't have precedent. And there are probably others who have done some version of just about everything Trump has done. I'm sure we all got reminded that Obama whispered to Putin he'd have more flexibility after the elections when the right defended Trump's call to Zelensky for dirt on Biden. When you bring up Trump bringing his kids jobs at the White House, we get reminded of patronage jobs for Hunter Biden. Same with sexual harassment accusations against Trump and Biden. Same with their brainpower. Each side always has a finger to point back at the other side for any accusation that is made, and who's right or wrong or being hypocritical, or why the situations are not the same is all in the eye of the beholder.

In politics, these two incidents may as well be exactly the same.

 

[ronntaylor]

Two quick quotes from The NY Times coverage of the Doc Drama

Glenn Thrush, NY Times:

In August, President Biden was asked if it was ever appropriate to take classified materials home. He said yes, with caveats. “I have, in my home, a cabined off space that is completely secure,” he told reporters, adding that he often takes home sensitive documents.

The investigation will see how secure this location(s) were. Certainly sounds more secure than Mango's Mar-a-Lardo where The National Archives had to insist on Mango adding security in the storage area while they tussled over the return of sensitive documents.

The Justice Department has released this statement from Hur, the new special counsel: "I will conduct the assigned investigation with fair, impartial and dispassionate judgment. I intend to follow the facts swiftly and thoroughly, without fear or favor, and will honor the trust placed in me to perform this service."

 

[Herdfan]

We'll see how all of this plays out. It seems like had Trump actually cooperated with them when they repeatedly asked for documents there would have been no raid and likely no charges, what separates him out here is that he was deliberately withholding.

Which is a separate charge.

I haven't had a chance to read through the charge for the Special Counsel to know what all he is looking into, but Hunter had access to the garage as he bragged how he came and took his dad's Corvette whenever he wanted. Hunter also listed that house as his residence and lived there in 2018 & 2019. So if the SC's charges are to investigate who all had access to the records, it could not go well for "The Big Guy".

Also, a sitting Congressman, Hank Johnson D-GA, has actually tried to point fingers at the GOP for planting the docs. Really? So he thinks a GOP operative, ala Watergate, could have planted documents in the sitting President's locked garage (it wasn't very secure if they could). I think there is a better chance some Dems did it to keep Biden from running again.

Biden's problem is that the headlines are the same, and the fundamentals are the same. Government property going to people's offices and homes, missing from the Archives.

Despite the CLEAR differences in circumstances in the cases, which as we've discussed are how charges are determined, that won't help with the political talking points. It's going to be Trump got caught with docs, Biden got caught with docs. Trump had some in an office, Biden had some in an office. Trump had them at home, Biden had them at home. It shows the Archives and Federal Government need to get their sh*t together, and quick.

Here's a question for you. I don't think anyone here thinks either Trump or Biden carried these boxes out of the WH themselves. Someone else carried them and was responsible for placing them in their final places. Shouldn't the Archives have someone monitoring what leaves the WH when there is an office change?

I mean maybe they should have to leave all docs so they can be gone though to make sure nothing is leaving that is not supposed to and then ship them at a later date? Or start the process earlier and have the Archives sign off on each box and then have it sealed.

But, yeah they kind of need to get their together.

 

[AG_PhamD]

This is true. If you look at all the recent hoolabaloos over handling of sensitive information, it seems that Trump may have gone 5 steps beyond the norm, but everyone's pretty "OLOL HOKAY" with classified documents in DC.

It’s rather strange. This seems like an invitation to spies to rummage through officials’ properties.

I will say there is the well known phenomenon in government of everything being over-classified, almost by default. Obviously some things are indeed highly sensitive. My dad’s consulting company has a contract with a government agency, he has a security clearance, but apparently much of the classified info he works with is often publicly available in some form or is proprietary information of non-government companies being shared with the government that they are obligated to respect. In reality it’s not really super secret info.

So in terms of the issue of realistic threat to national security, it’s hard to make a judgement on to what degree of serious these instances pose.

Regardless, this kind of stuff shouldn’t be happening. Obviously makes obstruction orders of magnitude worse, but if Biden delayed returning the files for political benefit, that adds a layer of problems beyond simply misplacing them.

 

[AG_PhamD]

Two quick quotes from The NY Times coverage of the Doc Drama


The investigation will see how secure this location(s) were. Certainly sounds more secure than Mango's Mar-a-Lardo where The National Archives had to insist on Mango adding security in the storage area while they tussled over the return of sensitive documents.

Apparently at least some of these files were in Biden’s garage. Biden says this is safe because it’s locked and that’s where he keeps his Corvette. Eek. Comparing the value potentially highly sensitive documents (that might put peoples lives at risk) to a car is really not a good look.

Comparing to Trump strictly on location alone- Biden’s house would have had secret service for up to 6 months after leaving office and sometime before being elected. I’m guessing his office building at Penn probably wasn’t accessible to the general public, but probably was to students and not particularly secure. Trump of course gets secret service for life but Mar-a-Lago is also somewhat public as a private club. Hard to say which is worse- in terms of storage security. Frankly both are awful locations and at least some of the docs should have never ever been there in the first place, as I understand.

 

[bwinter88]

Which is a separate charge.

I haven't had a chance to read through the charge for the Special Counsel to know what all he is looking into, but Hunter had access to the garage as he bragged how he came and took his dad's Corvette whenever he wanted. Hunter also listed that house as his residence and lived there in 2018 & 2019. So if the SC's charges are to investigate who all had access to the records, it could not go well for "The Big Guy".

Also, a sitting Congressman, Hank Johnson D-GA, has actually tried to point fingers at the GOP for planting the docs. Really? So he thinks a GOP operative, ala Watergate, could have planted documents in the sitting President's locked garage (it wasn't very secure if they could). I think there is a better chance some Dems did it to keep Biden from running again.

Really? Hank Johnson also said Guam would sink from overpopulation. Why quote this guy? Ahh, I see...he said it on Fox News. Really taking our discussion to heart I see

I don't even know why the charge of mishandling is even worth discussing. Hillary got a wrist slap on TV for mishandling classified docs. Neither Biden nor Trump will see a lick of punishment for it. It's those pesky "separate charges," you know, the criminal obstruction and all the criminally criminal stuff...

 

[lizkat]

I'm starting to skip over a lot of the extra pieces that are popping up in the papers now because the journos are like us, starting to try to compare and contrast the alleged behavior of both Trump and Biden,

That is most certainly not what the two counsels' offices are charged to do, and not what the DoJ is going to do either. Both cases will end up viewed as the discrete events they are, with things like intent --and any mitigating or exacerbating behavior and circumstances-- also taken into consideration. And of course at least some Ds and Rs will forever see one or even both cases as merely "political" -- which they are because, duh, the principals happen to be politicians.

 

[Herdfan]

Really? Hank Johnson also said Guam would sink from overpopulation. Why quote this guy? Ahh, I see...he said it on Fox News. Really taking our discussion to heart I see

I have to ask why the source matters. He is a sitting Congressman who made a statement. As long as his statement was quoted accurately it shouldn't matter who he said it to.

Apparently at least some of these files were in Biden’s garage. Biden says this is safe because it’s locked and that’s where he keeps his Corvette. Eek. Comparing the value potentially highly sensitive documents (that might put peoples lives at risk) to a car is really not a good look.

Comparing to Trump strictly on location alone- Biden’s house would have had secret service for up to 6 months after leaving office and sometime before being elected. I’m guessing his office building at Penn probably wasn’t accessible to the general public, but probably was to students and not particularly secure. Trump of course gets secret service for life but Mar-a-Lago is also somewhat public as a private club. Hard to say which is worse- in terms of storage security. Frankly both are awful locations and at least some of the docs should have never ever been there in the first place, as I understand.

Well, Hunter had access to that garage............

 

[quagmire]

People are too busy trying to make this black and white. It isn't. It's a complicated mess.

It's a fuck up on Biden's part. Shows carelessness. How to handle it is outside of my knowledge base. It should certainly lead to changes in procedure in how and where classified documents are handled. Maybe the only places these documents can go is official government buildings/locations. A president wants to take a break? Only option is Camp David if you need to handle classified documents. No more trips to your personal get away of choice.

But as long as it is a careless fuck up vs Biden intentionally taking those documents, it is still night and day difference compared to Trump. There is no comparing the two. Both are fuck ups, both are irresponsible. But how each should be handled is different. Trump should absolutely get the harsher treatment. If it is determined Biden intentionally hid them away, then yeah hang them both the same. Biden's team handled the discovery the way they should have. Doesn't excuse the careless handling of classified documents, but they did the responsible thing.