Guns are still America’s religion

[Yoused]

Two wrongs DO make a right!

Fact is, no one else is finding a bright line of wrong-person/right-person here. Both sides fucked up, and yes, it should have cost the biker.

It only takes a moment for you to make the wrong move that messes up the rest of your life. One little misstep and now you have to deal with the lasting consequences. I believe that all of us here (well, maybe not Herdfan) are of the opinion that greatly curtailing all the guns out there would go a long way toward making those consequences less severe.

 

[Huntn]

Fact is, no one else is finding a bright line of wrong-person/right-person here. Both sides fucked up, and yes, it should have cost the biker.

It only takes a moment for you to make the wrong move that messes up the rest of your life. One little misstep and now you have to deal with the lasting consequences. I believe that all of us here (well, maybe not Herdfan) are of the opinion that greatly curtailing all the guns out there would go a long way toward making those consequences less severe.

I like having access to a gun, but the consistent attempts to enable gun carrying in public is STUPID IMO along with enabling everyone to have a gun is ludicrous unless you have complete disregard for senseless death and collateral damage. The problem basically is I,Me,Mine> We, Our. That’s when “I felt” became a defacto Get Out Of Jail Free Card.

Remember when the police used to shout GUN?

 

[Herdfan]

Two wrongs DO make a right! Well, at least for the killer who is happily sipping a beer right now while a pregnant mother is dead and an unborn baby never saw the light of day because of bullets he fired.

So much for the “pro-life” laws in Florida. It’s just the Wild West. What an utter disaster.

I agree it is a tragedy. But also think she was as much in the wrong and is equally responsible for what happened.

 

[SuperMatt]

I agree it is a tragedy. But also think she was as much in the wrong and is equally responsible for what happened.

But you don’t know her side of the story. The only side of the story is from the killer and his two friends/witnesses. So you’re assuming he is telling the truth.

Dead men (or women) tell no tales. So consider that as you pronounce judgment on a dead person who never got their chance to say what they believe happened.

She didn’t kill anybody. He did. He is paying no penalty. She paid a death sentence.

You can believe whatever the F you want. But the evidence here is all from the killer and his friends’ perspective. The only thing we know from her side is that she feared for her life based on her 911 call.

She made bad choices that led to this, but she is NOT equally responsible. Especially since the murderer was hiding his gun until he was ready to kill her. He made no attempt to de-escalate or leave. He chose to kill. He is responsible.

“It’s a tragedy” is right up there with “thoughts and prayers.” It does nothing for anybody. These terrible laws need to be changed so killers don’t skate.

 

[SuperMatt]

Fact is, no one else is finding a bright line of wrong-person/right-person here. Both sides fucked up, and yes, it should have cost the biker.

It only takes a moment for you to make the wrong move that messes up the rest of your life. One little misstep and now you have to deal with the lasting consequences. I believe that all of us here (well, maybe not Herdfan) are of the opinion that greatly curtailing all the guns out there would go a long way toward making those consequences less severe.

You’ll never know her side. And the biker and his buddies have a VERY vested interest in presenting their story in a certain way.

But I agree that if we had some reasonable gun laws, this killing wouldn’t have even been possible.

 

[Herdfan]

But you don’t know her side of the story. The only side of the story is from the killer and his two friends/witnesses. So you’re assuming he is telling the truth.

I think the Police would have determined if she had in fact hit his motorcycle. If there was no proof of that, the situation changes dramatically.

 

[SuperMatt]

I think the Police would have determined if she had in fact hit his motorcycle. If there was no proof of that, the situation changes dramatically.

If you get in a fender bender, that’s an excuse for following somebody home and harassing them? Not according the law in Florida nor any sense of common decency. Fleeing the scene is wrong, but following somebody home like that is worse.

 

[Joe]

She was an irresponsible gun owner, and she paid for it with her life. Someone like her should never own a gun.

 

[SuperMatt]

She was an irresponsible gun owner, and she paid for it with her life. Someone like her should never own a gun.

She doesn’t anymore.

Do you think the killer was a responsible gun owner then? Or both of them were irresponsible?

 

[Joe]

She doesn’t anymore.

Do you think the killer was a responsible gun owner then? Or both of them were irresponsible?

He defended himself. She should have never came outside pointing a gun at them. Her life was not in danger when she was inside her home and they were outside waiting for the police to arrive.

If that had happened to me I would have simply stayed inside my home until the police arrived.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

If you get in a fender bender, that’s an excuse for following somebody home and harassing them? Not according the law in Florida nor any sense of common decency. Fleeing the scene is wrong, but following somebody home like that is worse.

I agree it was wrong for them to follow her home.

But having said that, why are you assuming it was just a fender bender? They reported she intentionally hit them (which you are assuming is a lie, but I don’t know why anybody would call the police to lie about that…especially a “biker”). Before that happened it could have been an exchange between dueling hot heads on both sides. The final showdown kind of points to that possibility. She could have also fled the scene because she didn’t want to be found guilty of something. I think a lot of assumptions are coming from the “biker vs pregnant librarian” angle, assumed they are thugs and she is an angel.

 

[Joe]

I agree it was wrong for them to follow her home.

But having said that, why are you assuming it was just a fender bender? They reported she intentionally hit them (which you are assuming is a lie, but I don’t know why anybody would call the police to lie about that…especially a “biker”). Before that happened it could have been an exchange between dueling hot heads on both sides. The final showdown kind of points to that possibility. She could have also fled the scene because she didn’t want to be found guilty of something. I think a lot of assumptions are coming from the “biker vs pregnant librarian” angle, assumed they are thugs and she is an angel.

She's an innocent pregnant librarian and they are evil bikers lol

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

She's an innocent pregnant librarian and they are evil bikers lol

Maybe I’ve watched too much Sons of Anarchy, but I don’t think following and gunning down random women who cut them off is part of the acceptable biker code of ethics. Nor is getting the police involved in their disputes. I don’t recall any scenes at the clubhouse where they said “If anything goes sideways out there, you should first call the police. You’ve got nothing to hide.”

 

[SuperMatt]

I agree it was wrong for them to follow her home.

But having said that, why are you assuming it was just a fender bender? They reported she intentionally hit them (which you are assuming is a lie, but I don’t know why anybody would call the police to lie about that…especially a “biker”). Before that happened it could have been an exchange between dueling hot heads on both sides. The final showdown kind of points to that possibility. She could have also fled the scene because she didn’t want to be found guilty of something. I think a lot of assumptions are coming from the “biker vs pregnant librarian” angle, assumed they are thugs and she is an angel.

He didn’t fall off the motorcycle, and had no injuries.

I believe there is no excuse for following somebody home because you’re mad about an accident that didn’t injure you and obviously didn’t render your vehicle inoperable.

People should not flee the scene, but one thing to consider: did she flee to avoid responsibility? Or did she receive threats from the man who eventually killed her? Again, as seen in many other cases, if you claim self defense and kill somebody, they don’t get a chance to testify. So we don’t know.

PS - I have nothing against bikers. I simply find way too many holes in the killer’s story.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

He didn’t fall off the motorcycle, and had no injuries.

I believe there is no excuse for following somebody home because you’re mad about an accident that didn’t injure you and obviously didn’t render your vehicle inoperable.

People should not flee the scene, but one thing to consider: did she flee to avoid responsibility? Or did she receive threats from the man who eventually killed her? Again, as seen in many other cases, if you claim self defense and kill somebody, they don’t get a chance to testify. So we don’t know.

PS - I have nothing against bikers. I simply find way too many holes in the killer’s story.

I think it is possible he did shoot her without her actually pointing the gun at them, but I also don't think she would have gotten shot if she didn't go outside with the gun. That gave them an excuse. Think of how many times cops shoot people with less justification and they are supposedly trained professionals.

My main point of going down this rabbit hole is I think many other things could have reasonably been done by both sides before it ended up where it did, but once you bring guns into it, it may not matter what the law says when it comes to you still being alive at the end of it.

 

[Herdfan]

I like having access to a gun, but the consistent attempts to enable gun carrying in public is STUPID IMO along with enabling everyone to have a gun is ludicrous unless you have complete disregard for senseless death and collateral damage.

To me the gun issue is similar to the abortion issue in that neither side will ever be content. Gun advocates want unfettered access while gun opponents want no one to have a gun. There is simply no middle ground acceptable to the fringes of each issue and neither will be happy unless they get their way 100%. So where does this leave the rest of the people. Well a normal person who wants to own a gun will never accept what the anti-gun crowd wants, so they end up siding with the NRA or some other advocacy group even though they may go too far for their individual tastes. But those who believe that people should be allowed to own guns, but want reasonable restrictions, won't go along with many of the things the NRA wants.

That is where I believe I am. I have no issue with background checks or having to take the class and jump though a few hoops to get a carry permit. But when the other option is to align myself with a group that wants to do completely away with my right to own a gun, there is no way I can support them.

 

[SuperMatt]

To me the gun issue is similar to the abortion issue in that neither side will ever be content. Gun advocates want unfettered access while gun opponents want no one to have a gun. There is simply no middle ground acceptable to the fringes of each issue and neither will be happy unless they get their way 100%. So where does this leave the rest of the people. Well a normal person who wants to own a gun will never accept what the anti-gun crowd wants, so they end up siding with the NRA or some other advocacy group even though they may go too far for their individual tastes. But those who believe that people should be allowed to own guns, but want reasonable restrictions, won't go along with many of the things the NRA wants.

That is where I believe I am. I have no issue with background checks or having to take the class and jump though a few hoops to get a carry permit. But when the other option is to align myself with a group that wants to do completely away with my right to own a gun, there is no way I can support them.

When people are surveyed on the individual issues, most gun owners support some restrictions, and most people on the other end of the spectrum actually believe guns should be allowed.

Unfortunately, the extreme outliers (which include the NRA on one side unfortunately) seem to get all the press. If the NRA supported some common-sense restrictions, they would be more in line with what their members actually believe.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

When people are surveyed on the individual issues, most gun owners support some restrictions, and most people on the other end of the spectrum actually believe guns should be allowed.

Unfortunately, the extreme outliers (which include the NRA on one side unfortunately) seem to get all the press. If the NRA supported some common-sense restrictions, they would be more in line with what their members actually believe.

Like most hyper polarized issues, they are only considered so because that's what the media labels them and only hands the mic to the extreme ends. And I've said this before, if it's an issue that doesn't affect corporate profits the news media will always say it's the most important issue to Americans. Everything that might cause a loss of profits is second tier (according to the media).

 

[Huntn]

I agree it is a tragedy. But also think she was as much in the wrong and is equally responsible for what happened.

If they did not have guns she’d be alive,

 

[Huntn]

To me the gun issue is similar to the abortion issue in that neither side will ever be content. Gun advocates want unfettered access while gun opponents want no one to have a gun. There is simply no middle ground acceptable to the fringes of each issue and neither will be happy unless they get their way 100%. So where does this leave the rest of the people. Well a normal person who wants to own a gun will never accept what the anti-gun crowd wants, so they end up siding with the NRA or some other advocacy group even though they may go too far for their individual tastes. But those who believe that people should be allowed to own guns, but want reasonable restrictions, won't go along with many of the things the NRA wants.

That is where I believe I am. I have no issue with background checks or having to take the class and jump though a few hoops to get a carry permit. But when the other option is to align myself with a group that wants to do completely away with my right to own a gun, there is no way I can support them.

Regarding gun opponents who want nobody having guns, they are a small minority, not representative of a vast majority of gun owners who want to see guns regulated. After all these are lethal weapons and there are enough ass hats out there who have no business owning a gun, they endanger and take lives senselessly.

The idea that everyone deserves a gun, is not a worthy right Imo, I mean shit you have to take a driving course, pass a test, are required to hold insurance, and renew periodically and those are not intended to be lethal. With guns we’ve got a full blown mania gun worship on our hands.