Guns are still America’s religion

[JayMysteri0]

So, when I reacted to @AG_PhamD concerning the mental health of the (alleged) terrorist in Buffalo, I want you to know a) it was not personal but b) here is why I reacted that way:

Tucker Carlson on his TV show:

Tucker Carlson Says Racism Was Not The Motive In Buffalo Supermarket Shooting

The Fox News host took right-wing denial to new lows to explain a self-professed white supremacist's targeting of people in a Black neighborhood.

www.huffpost.com

As you can see, for this man and his millions of followers, it is never about the harm their racist ideology causes. It’s just a random crazy person.

The mental health crisis in America should encourage people to use LESS inflammatory rhetoric, not more. This person can absolutely have a mental problem AND be a bad person AND a combo of that plus a diet of rhetoric from the likes of Tucker Carlson can lead to white power terrorism.

As long mental health isn’t be used as a get-out-of-jail-free-card by the terrorist or the likes of Tucker Carlson, I’m happy to have the discussion. But I knew for a fact, having seen this dance before, that both the gun fetishists and peddlers of racist ideology would deny any culpability and say “It’s all because of mental health!!!!” Tucker Carlson certainly lived up to my expectations.

This is what I found interesting in the early time of the shooting. At least from what I observed. Go back and read the posts when this was being first mentioned, one thing that was mentioned... The shooter's own manifesto parroting _ucker's own words about grt. What wasn't being mentioned heavily? Mental illness and a need to ban guns. Why? Personally, I think it's because whenever ANOTHER shooter does this we do the same tired song & dance. Especially if it's a White shooter, there ALWAYS has to be something else responsible OTHER than the shooter or guns. Which leads to the tired talk about mental illness, which is the ONLY time there is talk about mental illness. Otherwise mental illness is like discussing children outside the womb to pro life extremists, ...they don't give a fuck. We can't blame guns, because... guns. So what did everyone blame? The shooter's STATED motives.

He's FUCKING racist. He is NOT ashamed of this. That is NOT mental illness. This is chosen & it is cultivated by others for personal gain.

He spent months planning this. He did research. He learned from past shooters to insure that his actions & manifesto would pass on to inspire others.

Most importantly, he meant to terrorize.

You don't shoot OLDER people, if you are worried about future White Americans being supposedly replaced.

"Legacy Americans?" What the F?! Somehow that's more important than the ORIGINALS, or the group IMPORTED against their wills to help make this country great with no intended benefit for them?

GTFO.

Later on of course, we had persons trying to bring up the previous NOW dead weight excuses after that focus bled over to their culpability into what inspired the shooter, based on his own words. Sorry. No. We all know the maddening truth. This is NOT the last.

By intention.

What was the other big focus of course? How safely the police managed to bring in a suspect who was heavily armed & armored, while they type of persons the shooter killed die at the hands of the police unarmed & unarmored for no real reason. Sorry to all of those who need to be concerned about mental health now & failures of gun laws. That shit ain't flying now. Call it what it is by what all of these such incidents have in common... domestic terrorism. If we're calling it such, we address it as such, we judge it as such.

 

[Cmaier]

This is what I found interesting in the early time of the shooting. At least from what I observed. Go back and read the posts when this was being first mentioned, one thing that was mentioned... The shooter's own manifesto parroting _ucker's own words about grt. What wasn't being mentioned heavily? Mental illness and a need to ban guns. Why? Personally, I think it's because whenever ANOTHER shooter does this we do the same tired song & dance. Especially if it's a White shooter, there ALWAYS has to be something else responsible OTHER than the shooter or guns. Which leads to the tired talk about mental illness, which is the ONLY time there is talk about mental illness. Otherwise mental illness is like discussing children outside the womb to pro life extremists, ...they don't give a fuck. We can't blame guns, because... guns. So what did everyone blame? The shooter's STATED motives.

He's FUCKING racist. He is NOT ashamed of this. That is NOT mental illness. This is chosen & it is cultivated by others for personal gain.

He spent months planning this. He did research. He learned from past shooters to insure that his actions & manifesto would pass on to inspire others.

Most importantly, he meant to terrorize.

You don't shoot OLDER people, if you are worried about future White Americans being supposedly replaced.

"Legacy Americans?" What the F?! Somehow that's more important than the ORIGINALS, or the group IMPORTED against their wills to help make this country great with no intended benefit for them?

GTFO.

Later on of course, we had persons trying to bring up the previous NOW dead weight excuses after that focus bled over to their culpability into what inspired the shooter, based on his own words. Sorry. No. We all know the maddening truth. This is NOT the last.

By intention.

What was the other big focus of course? How safely the police managed to bring in a suspect who was heavily armed & armored, while they type of persons the shooter killed die at the hands of the police unarmed & unarmored for no real reason. Sorry to all of those who need to be concerned about mental health now & failures of gun laws. That shit ain't flying now. Call it what it is by what all of these such incidents have in common... domestic terrorism. If we're calling it such, we address it as such, we judge it as such.

Speaking of racism, I‘ll just leave this here.

Louisiana Senator: Our Maternal Death Rates Are Only Bad If You Count Black Women

“If you correct our population for race, we’re not as much of an outlier as it’d otherwise appear.”

www.vanityfair.com

 

[Herdfan]

What wasn't being mentioned heavily?

You know what else wasn't mentioned heavily? NY's strict gun laws. He saw them as an advantage in that there would be no one to stop him.

Buffalo Shooter Saw New York's Gun Laws As His Advantage

On Saturday, 18-year-old Payton Gendron allegedly carried out the mass shooting incident, which left 10 people dead and several others injured.

www.newsweek.com

 

[JayMysteri0]

You know what else wasn't mentioned heavily? NY's strict gun laws. He saw them as an advantage in that there would be no one to stop him.

Buffalo Shooter Saw New York's Gun Laws As His Advantage

On Saturday, 18-year-old Payton Gendron allegedly carried out the mass shooting incident, which left 10 people dead and several others injured.

www.newsweek.com

I apologize for being too subtle, but I was covering that with...

and a need to ban guns. Why? Personally, I think it's because whenever ANOTHER shooter does this we do the same tired song & dance. Especially if it's a White shooter, there ALWAYS has to be something else responsible OTHER than the shooter or guns.

It will ALWAYS be something else's fault, except the White shooter. If it's a PoC being killed by the police though, it's ALWAYS only ONE reason, the victim. I wait impatiently wait for the time the likes of _ucker & r' friends have run the gamut of excuses, and they are only left with blaming the victims for being shot.

 

[Cmaier]

I apologize for being too subtle, but I was covering that with...



It will ALWAYS be something else's fault, except the White shooter. If it's a PoC being killed by the police though, it's ALWAYS only ONE reason, the victim. I wait impatiently wait for the time the likes of _ucker & r' friends have run the gamut of excuses, and they are only left with blaming the victims for being shot.

The playbook:

18 years old: white = teenager. black = man.
perpetrator: white = mental health issues or bad upbringing led him to life of crime. black = thug
victim: white = innocent victim. Black = thug

 

[AG_PhamD]

So, when I reacted to @AG_PhamD concerning the mental health of the (alleged) terrorist in Buffalo, I want you to know a) it was not personal but b) here is why I reacted that way:

Tucker Carlson on his TV show:

Tucker Carlson Says Racism Was Not The Motive In Buffalo Supermarket Shooting

The Fox News host took right-wing denial to new lows to explain a self-professed white supremacist's targeting of people in a Black neighborhood.

www.huffpost.com

As you can see, for this man and his millions of followers, it is never about the harm their racist ideology causes. It’s just a random crazy person.

The mental health crisis in America should encourage people to use LESS inflammatory rhetoric, not more. This person can absolutely have a mental problem AND be a bad person AND a combo of that plus a diet of rhetoric from the likes of Tucker Carlson can lead to white power terrorism.

As long mental health isn’t be used as a get-out-of-jail-free-card by the terrorist or the likes of Tucker Carlson, I’m happy to have the discussion. But I knew for a fact, having seen this dance before, that both the gun fetishists and peddlers of racist ideology would deny any culpability and say “It’s all because of mental health!!!!” Tucker Carlson certainly lived up to my expectations.

I agree this is an absurd take and a total deflection. I’d have to see the full context, but it sounds a lot like defending white supremacists.

I’d tell Tucker the basically what I’ve been saying, it’s possible that he was both mentally ill and radicalized by white supremacists. Even if it’s accepted his mental illness could have made him more susceptible to radicalization, it does not necessarily preclude him from being responsible for his actions nor the reality white supremacists pose a danger by disseminating hate, even if they’re not advocating violence.

 

[Yoused]

Even if it’s accepted his mental illness could have made him more susceptible to radicalization, it does not necessarily preclude him from being responsible for his actions

There is a vexing philosophical issue to deal with here. If I tell you a thing that I understand to be true but you are certain that I am mistaken, can you accuse me of lying? I am not deliberately trying to mislead you, merely stating my understanding of reality, which does not comport with yours.

The local TV station play reruns of Gunsmoke six days a week, from which we learn that people being killed is a normal way for problems to be resolved. Most of us know that reality is not Matt Dillon's Dodge City, but some of us either fail to grasp that or feel like maybe we all ought to strive for that ideal.

Because quite frankly, what me have is full of broken, and going back to an easier mode of B&W thinking and snuffing out the bad guys has an atavistic appeal to it. And doing things the just and hard way is, well, hard.

My position has always been that disparaging a terrorist (and, seriously, he did commit an act of unalloyed terrorism) is ultimately counterproductive, because it allows us to new that person as evil, end-of-story, when the most useful thing we can do is to see the terrorist as a person, explore their driving motivations and address the causes of the terrorism at a root level. Except, that is hard.

 

[SuperMatt]

My position has always been that disparaging a terrorist (and, seriously, he did commit an act of unalloyed terrorism) is ultimately counterproductive, because it allows us to new that person as evil, end-of-story, when the most useful thing we can do is to see the terrorist as a person, explore their driving motivations and address the causes of the terrorism at a root level. Except, that is hard.

I agree; it is hard. I want this person to go to prison for the rest of his life without parole.

After the 9/11 attacks, at some point we had discussions about how to prevent radicalization of Muslim youths around the world. I think it’s well past time to talk about preventing radicalization of white Christian youths in America.

I believe this terrorist is the product of a strain of racism in our society. It used to be large groups of white people holding lynchings. Now the same types of leaders who led the KKK in the past are encouraging unstable youths with the same ideas prevalent during the days of frequent lynchings.

Trump said the “quiet” part out loud, and instead of being shunned, was given 4 years in the White House. How do we make it once again unacceptable to grab women by the p***y, call Mexicans rapists, ban Muslims from America, build a wall, steal kids from their parents and lock them in cages? Until we figure that out, it’s a very short bridge to cross from those ideas to mass murder of minorities. Unfortunately, I don’t see the right-wing crazies being sidelined by their party. In fact, they are becoming stronger. I think defeating them and their hate is key to preventing more racist terror attacks.

 

[JayMysteri0]

There is a vexing philosophical issue to deal with here. If I tell you a thing that I understand to be true but you are certain that I am mistaken, can you accuse me of lying? I am not deliberately trying to mislead you, merely stating my understanding of reality, which does not comport with yours.

The local TV station play reruns of Gunsmoke six days a week, from which we learn that people being killed is a normal way for problems to be resolved. Most of us know that reality is not Matt Dillon's Dodge City, but some of us either fail to grasp that or feel like maybe we all ought to strive for that ideal.

Because quite frankly, what me have is full of broken, and going back to an easier mode of B&W thinking and snuffing out the bad guys has an atavistic appeal to it. And doing things the just and hard way is, well, hard.

My position has always been that disparaging a terrorist (and, seriously, he did commit an act of unalloyed terrorism) is ultimately counterproductive, because it allows us to new that person as evil, end-of-story, when the most useful thing we can do is to see the terrorist as a person, explore their driving motivations and address the causes of the terrorism at a root level. Except, that is hard.

On the flip side of that I believe that "mental illness" has become the deflection of choice of the enablers of such behavior. The likes of _ucker & Stefanik who espouse grt for personal gain, don't want to be held responsible. So when someone does act ( AGAIN ) on such rhetoric, THAT person has issues. NOT the persons who repeat such harmful filth, waiting for it to inspire the next domestic terrorist. We don't have to look any further than those on 1/6 who were supposedly engaged in "legitimate political discourse" that also happened to kill a police officer that they greatly support. THOSE people supposedly do NOT have an issues, while if you get caught driving your car into a crowd in Charlottesville, that's crazy. It seems more & more often that what's become the defining line of 'mental illness' with this crowd is whether you get caught, or the blowback makes the fellow racists look bad.

If a particular group of people get bent out of shape & inspired because of international terrorists. If a particular group is quick to lump all protests as riots, and show more concern for storefront property over human lives. I'm sorry when they themselves commit the same acts as those 'international' terrorists, or do things with the intent of terrorizing a group of United States citizens... They get called domestic terrorists, and it's counter productive to couch it any other way. Or to put it in the words of that group, "F their feelings". The motivations are simple. They've given into ginned up fear, and decided that lashing out at their fellow citizens because of skin color is in their best interests. It's something taught, learned, & cultivated. Otherwise it looks like one part of a particular race that wants to claim superiority, also seems to be more susceptible to bouts of repeated mass mental illness over other races in the country.

 

[AG_PhamD]

There is a vexing philosophical issue to deal with here. If I tell you a thing that I understand to be true but you are certain that I am mistaken, can you accuse me of lying? I am not deliberately trying to mislead you, merely stating my understanding of reality, which does not comport with yours.

I suppose there could be a lot of philosophical answers to those questions, but practically speaking if you believe you’re telling the truth, then you’re not lying. If you are indeed incorrect, then you are mistaken. If you’re mistaken, I could call you a liar, but then I too would be mistaken. Of course everyone has their own perception of reality.

I’m not entirely sure I understand what you’re getting at- it’s early and my brain is still booting up. Are we speaking in the context of the perpetrator or people like Tucker Carlson?

My position has always been that disparaging a terrorist (and, seriously, he did commit an act of unalloyed terrorism) is ultimately counterproductive, because it allows us to new that person as evil, end-of-story, when the most useful thing we can do is to see the terrorist as a person, explore their driving motivations and address the causes of the terrorism at a root level. Except, that is hard.

I absolutely agree. When someone commits a heinous crime most people naturally dehumanize the perpetrator. Understanding the motivations, background, influences, thought processes, beliefs, etc of the perpetrator as you mentioned is important from a law enforcement, academic, and medical/psychological standpoint in understanding what happened and why, and of course how to identify and prevent these tragedies in the future. But I think it’s also important for the general public to be aware of these facets not only to potentially identify potentially dangerous people, but especially in the context of school shooters and kids, how things like bullying, social rejection, etc can affect others, and ultimately end up hurting everyone.

———

I think another problem we have here is the amount of hyperbole used by the media, politicians, and even in regular conversation- this applies to both sides of the isle. I‘be seen countless (news) “news” segments, posts, etc where they explicitly or implicitly express that all republicans / conservatives are racist, sexist, homophobic, white supremacists, etc or that they’re all evangelical Christians. While it’s certainly true there are problematic ideologies ranging from mainstream but racist to radical to extremist on the right, I don’t think that is an remotely accurate representation of the majority of republicans. And just because someone opposes abortion doesn’t mean they’re sexist, just because someone wants the border secured doesn’t mean they’re xenophobic. The problem with this broad brush stereotyping is it creates little-no differentiation between normal people (who democrats may disagree with) and the truly dangerous individuals. In that sense there is no in stigma between two, thus becoming a radical on the right is just as socially unacceptable as not being a non-radical on the right.

On the other hand, the Right has its own use of toxic hyperbole, like much of what Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity has to say. Or the general talking point that the left wants to destroy “American values” and America from the inside out. That any attempt to enact legislation to minimize gun violence or extremism is actually an attempt to remove your civil liberties. That the left specifically want to interfere with religion. That the immigration situation is an attempt to flood your neighborhood with democrats to take political control of the country entirely (despite the fact many Latinos actually end up being conservative). That COVID restrictions are solely some sort of power play than a public health matter. This of course riles up their viewers and some interpret that there is some sort of existential crisis occurring in America due to the opposite party.

We all perceive how “divided” America is- but how much of that is real and how much is theoretical? On a day to day basis the overwhelming majority of democrats and republicans coexist just fine within families, friendships, neighborhoods, workplaces, etc. The balance of political power changes with every election, yet for most of us, politics have relatively little impact on our life. But when you turn on the news the amount of toxic propaganda is endless. 90% of FOX, CNN, and MSNBC content is basically programming viewers to hate the left/right. It’s really just disgusting the fear and intolerance and anger for our neighbors that is manufactured for the sake of political power. The powers at be would rather try to consolidate power and see the country torn apart.

The reality is most Americans fall in the middle of the political spectrum, whether that be independents, moderates, center-left dems, or center right republicans. The way the news presents things makes it seem like the country is 50/50 right/left and that everyone on the opposing end is at the far end of the spectrum. But the media narratives a seem to be designed to promote outrage and drive people further left or further right.

So with Tucker Carlson and the Buffalo shooting, I don’t subscribe to the idea he is “responsible” for inspiring the crime. He never said to kill anyone, the shooter never referenced him in his lengthy manifesto and cited he was radicalized online, and I believe people are ultimately responsible for his/her own actions. What Tucker is guilty of is promoting this emotionally charged environment often based on exaggeration and half truths that promotes craziness like this to occur. Not all hosts are equal in their toxicity, but Tucker is among the worst.

I can only anticipate this antagonism will only get worse as time progresses.

 

[SuperMatt]

So with Tucker Carlson and the Buffalo shooting, I don’t subscribe to the idea he is “responsible” for inspiring the crime. He never said to kill anyone, the shooter never referenced him in his lengthy manifesto and cited he was radicalized online, and I believe people are ultimately responsible for his/her own actions. What Tucker is guilty of is promoting this emotionally charged environment often based on exaggeration and half truths that promotes craziness like this to occur. Not all hosts are equal in their toxicity, but Tucker is among the worst.

Well, I know it’s a terrible idea to ever invoke Nazis in any argument, but…

“The way Hitler worked was he would make these pronouncements, and people would go off and figure out, what did he mean? How are we going to do this?” says White. “You could work towards the Führer by being innovative and ruthless.”

In other words, rather than giving explicit orders to each member of the Nazi party, Hitler made numerous statements vilifying Jewish people and declaring the need to exterminate them.

Does that sound familiar?

The First Moments of Hitler's Final Solution

When Hitler solidified his plan to exterminate Jews – and why it matters 75 years later

www.smithsonianmag.com

And people were sounding the alarm bells about Carlson before this terrorist attack. This article is lengthy, but I found it worth a read.

What to Know About Tucker Carlson’s Rise

A Times examination of the host’s career and singular influence at Fox News shows how his trajectory traces the transformation of American conservatism itself.

www.nytimes.com

(paywall removed)

 

[Herdfan]

I believe this terrorist is the product of a strain of racism in our society.

Which, in my opinion, is brought on by our politicians trying to create divisions between us. And not just race, but almost anything they can use to divide us.

 

[JayMysteri0]

Which, in my opinion, is brought on by our politicians trying to create divisions between us. And not just race, but almost anything they can use to divide us.

Which politicians specifically & how?



Not certain media personalities who've been documented for doing this for years?

 

[DT]

JFC.

19 children, 2 teachers killed in Texas elementary school shooting

An 18-year-old suspect was fatally wounded by law enforcement officers, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said.

www.nbcnews.com

Gunman Who Killed 19 Kids at Texas Elementary School Shot ‘Whoever Was in His Way’

The 18-year-old shooter walked into Robb Elementary School with a handgun.

www.thedailybeast.com

The original report indicated 2 dead (teacher and student) but these later reports are sounding much worse.


https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1529196383399452673/

 

[fooferdoggie]

If Texas only had more guns. thoughts and prayers as usual.

 

[GermanSuplex]

Gross. The frequency of these things is not alarming to enough people, it seems. I’m at a loss.

 

[Citysnaps]

14 elementary school children killed, along with a teacher.

Yet many still cling to their no-limits 2nd amendment rights being far more important than dead school children, believing "guns are not the problem." For sure they'll offer an abundance of thoughts and prayers to the dead childrens' parents.

So sick of selfish me-me-me people who only care about themselves.

 

[GermanSuplex]

We did nothing after Sandy Hook, we did nothing after Parkland, there’s probably been another dozen smaller, forgotten school shootings since, plus the other non-school mass shootings. I don’t think enough people believe it could happen in their hometown.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

14 elementary school children killed, along with a teacher.

Yet many still cling to their no-limits 2nd amendment rights being far more important than dead school children, believing "guns are not the problem." For sure they'll offer an abundance of thoughts and prayers to the dead childrens' parents.

So sick of selfish me-me-me people who only care about themselves.

This story just popped up on the news here and looks horrific.

I tend to have the opinion that guns as objects aren’t the problem, but they are the last things you want in the hands of people in a society where there is clearly a desire to commit mass murder on a regular basis. America seems to have a disproportionate amount of individuals who have hatred for others and it’s not something you see with the same regularity in other developed countries. It’s always spouted as ‘Land of the Free’, yet people often actively walk around doing everyday things whilst armed for the unexpected. It’s a dreadful indictment of a society that accepts violence and has deep social problems that lead to such acts.

I know a lot of Americans will laugh at us in Europe because we don’t have lots of guns to defend ourselves, but it’s certainly not a worry I have ever had or would want my children to have. Those kids in Texas are the same age as my children and went into school to be murdered. We just don’t have things like that happening here and the first and last happened here way back in 1996. We had the guts to do something about it.

 

[Citysnaps]

We did nothing after Sandy Hook, we did nothing after Parkland, there’s probably been another dozen smaller, forgotten school shootings since, plus the other non-school mass shootings. I don’t think enough people believe it could happen in their hometown.

And 60 people killed with 400 wounded attending a music festival in Las Vegas five years ago from a guy in a hotel room with an arsenal of weapons.