Guns are still America’s religion

AG_PhamD

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How many of the mass shooters had a juvenile criminal record?

What is the racial demographic of those with juvenile criminal records? How many majority-black schools have police officers in the school vs how many majority-white schools have police in there?

Due to extreme racial disparities in the criminal justice system, Such a policy will disproportionately deprive black people of their 2nd amendment rights.

And it wouldn’t have prevented most mass shootings, done predominantly by white men with no criminal records.

Now, perhaps such a policy could reduce gun violence overall, since if we make the net wide enough, we could prevent millions of people from buying guns based on their actions as kids.

But all of it still leaves the elephant in the room: military-grade weapons can be bought freely by just about anybody. Kyle Rittenhouse borrowed a gun. Semi-automatic weapons shouldn’t be ubiquitous… and when they are? Well, we see the results on the news every single week.

Red flag laws might be a small part of a solution, but there are far better steps that don’t involve holding juvenile records over people’s heads until their 30s. Because we KNOW who that will target. A black kid who got in a fight at an overly-policed school and ended up with a criminal record… while at another school, a white kid in a similar fight got an afternoon in detention instead.

Gun violence is literally the #1 cause of death for children in America. The idea that we can fix that by keeping guns away from the ”bad guys” is a fantasy, meant to protect gun manufacturer profits.

Seriously man? You’re leading me to believe you’re arguing just for the sake of argument at this point.

You’ve gone from “guns should be as difficult to get as possible” to the sentiment “guns should not be allowed at all” (or at least confined to semi-automatic, which bans a tremendous amount of weapons, including the semi-auto pistol, the most popular self defense weapon) to now “gun control laws would violate second amendment rights”. So which is it?

If you’re going to go with the latter argument, the existing laws that involve background checks would also (and in fact do to an extent) disproportionately affect the Black community’s 2A rights. So are you willing to loosen existing background check policy/procedure to prevent this?

This line of logic has a lot of other implications, but I won’t berate the point.

1. I couldn’t tell you. In 2015 the NYT claimed 6/15 of recent mass shooters had “run ins with the law”. I can’t tell you if that means arrests or convictions or just contact leading to no action. Some studies claim things like “most did not have a criminal record”- which is vague language, perhaps intentionally in the sense that it highlights the very issue we’re talking about. If a record is sealed how would researchers even know it exists? I’m also not sure what “most” is either- 51%, 75% 99%?.

What often happens are these facts are stated without any reference or methodology- we have no idea how sealed records are considered, if they even thought to consider them at all. The fact then gets cited over and over again, or worse repeated without a citation. To further complicate things, terms are used very loosely or defined super specifically or not at all.

2) First, let’s remember keeping guns out of dangerous peoples hands also prevents many other gun-related crimes, not just school shootings. And school shootings account for a infinitesimal percent of gun related deaths and injury. These laws should ideally be applicable to all forms of gun violence.

3) Using data to help inform laws helps recognize and prevent unfair prejudices. While there are clearlt disparities in how the criminal justice system treats Black people, I’m not sure that fully accounts for the difference in crime rates between cases. If that was the case, then Asians would receive the most preferential treatment. But that’s not to say race is directly responsible- rather it’s the consequences of a prevalent set of life circumstances common to large swaths of one group. But that’s a whole different problem and discussion

4. Maybe it’s more common to see more police in urban schools is because more crime occurs in urban areas- both outside the school and inside. Is bias a factor, sure. But do you think the murder rate in urban areas is artificially high compared to rural/suburban areas? The police presence in schools is changing quite quickly in rural/suburban areas btw. Typically arresting students is at the bottom of the roles of a SRO. In fact in some places they can’t- that’s being debated in Mass right now. As I understand they are there primarily to promote safety, especially from outside the school, as well as serve as a mentor and a resource students can seek for help in difficult situations.

4. While white students disproportionally commit mass school shootings, are you aware that minority students commit a disproportionate number of individually-targeted shootings on school grounds? They also have a higher chance of being involved in gangs/gang violence.

There are a number of instances where certain races have disproportionately high rates of specific crimes. Like Black people commit 55% of murders yet are ~13% of the population. Meanwhile White men comprise nearly all community-targeted mass shootings (including school shootings) as well as accounting for 90% of registered sex offenders against children. Why? I wish I knew. Hispanic-Americans are by far most likely to be involved in gangs and gang-related crimes. Asian-Americans commit very few violent crimes but have a disparate amount of suicides.

5) Gun homicide is the leading cause of black men under 55. Black males are 10-20x more likely to be killed by gun homicide than their white counterparts. Most murder victims are murdered by someone of the same race. So more sophisticated background checks are not going to help save lives in the Black community?

And to be clear, there’s a difference of a juvenile record, say being caught with drugs or driving without a license or drinking alcohol, etc (common juvenile charges) versus more serious crimes involving violence or illegal weapons possession.
 
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SuperMatt

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Then you are mistaken. I typed every single line of that up myself.
My apologies. As a musician I should have better appreciation of variations on a theme.


 

Yoused

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Yoused

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Dear Daniel,

17B91F55-8CA4-4B3B-AA91-D548171BB3A9.png


[redacted]
 

Cmaier

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the same company that used a baby holding a ar 15???? I am sure you have los of thoughts and prayers while your stock goes up huh??? I hope they go down in flames big time.
They *want* you to know their gun was used. It’s free advertising. “if one 18 year old can use our gun to hold off a SWAT team for 90 minutes, just imagine what you can do to the woke mob that’s coming to remove your town’s racist statues!”
 

fooferdoggie

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They *want* you to know their gun was used. It’s free advertising. “if one 18 year old can use our gun to hold off a SWAT team for 90 minutes, just imagine what you can do to the woke mob that’s coming to remove your town’s racist statues!”
hope it costs them everything. How can you deny the whole pandering to the young with their ad?
 

SuperMatt

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Dear Daniel,

View attachment 14435

[redacted]
There is a vicious cycle that benefits gun manufacturers. A tragic shooting happens, leading to fear. Gun companies advertise their products as a solution, and people buy more… which leads to more shootings. And now we have more guns than we have people. That is messed up.
 

SuperMatt

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Seriously man? You’re leading me to believe you’re arguing just for the sake of argument at this point.

You’ve gone from “guns should be as difficult to get as possible” to the sentiment “guns should not be allowed at all” (or at least confined to semi-automatic, which bans a tremendous amount of weapons, including the semi-auto pistol, the most popular self defense weapon) to now “gun control laws would violate second amendment rights”. So which is it?

If you’re going to go with the latter argument, the existing laws that involve background checks would also (and in fact do to an extent) disproportionately affect the Black community’s 2A rights. So are you willing to loosen existing background check policy/procedure to prevent this?

This line of logic has a lot of other implications, but I won’t berate the point.

1. I couldn’t tell you. In 2015 the NYT claimed 6/15 of recent mass shooters had “run ins with the law”. I can’t tell you if that means arrests or convictions or just contact leading to no action. Some studies claim things like “most did not have a criminal record”- which is vague language, perhaps intentionally in the sense that it highlights the very issue we’re talking about. If a record is sealed how would researchers even know it exists? I’m also not sure what “most” is either- 51%, 75% 99%?.

What often happens are these facts are stated without any reference or methodology- we have no idea how sealed records are considered, if they even thought to consider them at all. The fact then gets cited over and over again, or worse repeated without a citation. To further complicate things, terms are used very loosely or defined super specifically or not at all.

2) First, let’s remember keeping guns out of dangerous peoples hands also prevents many other gun-related crimes, not just school shootings. And school shootings account for a infinitesimal percent of gun related deaths and injury. These laws should ideally be applicable to all forms of gun violence.

3) Using data to help inform laws helps recognize and prevent unfair prejudices. While there are clearlt disparities in how the criminal justice system treats Black people, I’m not sure that fully accounts for the difference in crime rates between cases. If that was the case, then Asians would receive the most preferential treatment. But that’s not to say race is directly responsible- rather it’s the consequences of a prevalent set of life circumstances common to large swaths of one group. But that’s a whole different problem and discussion

4. Maybe it’s more common to see more police in urban schools is because more crime occurs in urban areas- both outside the school and inside. Is bias a factor, sure. But do you think the murder rate in urban areas is artificially high compared to rural/suburban areas? The police presence in schools is changing quite quickly in rural/suburban areas btw. Typically arresting students is at the bottom of the roles of a SRO. In fact in some places they can’t- that’s being debated in Mass right now. As I understand they are there primarily to promote safety, especially from outside the school, as well as serve as a mentor and a resource students can seek for help in difficult situations.

4. While white students disproportionally commit mass school shootings, are you aware that minority students commit a disproportionate number of individually-targeted shootings on school grounds? They also have a higher chance of being involved in gangs/gang violence.

There are a number of instances where certain races have disproportionately high rates of specific crimes. Like Black people commit 55% of murders yet are ~13% of the population. Meanwhile White men comprise nearly all community-targeted mass shootings (including school shootings) as well as accounting for 90% of registered sex offenders against children. Why? I wish I knew. Hispanic-Americans are by far most likely to be involved in gangs and gang-related crimes. Asian-Americans commit very few violent crimes but have a disparate amount of suicides.

5) Gun homicide is the leading cause of black men under 55. Black males are 10-20x more likely to be killed by gun homicide than their white counterparts. Most murder victims are murdered by someone of the same race. So more sophisticated background checks are not going to help save lives in the Black community?

And to be clear, there’s a difference of a juvenile record, say being caught with drugs or driving without a license or drinking alcohol, etc (common juvenile charges) versus more serious crimes involving violence or illegal weapons possession.
Before I take this back to red flag laws, I want to mention that for the past 2 years, there has been an intense national conversation about the racial disparities in policing. I believe most of those discussions have come to different conclusions than what you’ve put forward above, especially once you get to point 3 and beyond. So, I’d suggest if you want to question those conclusions, that you pick one of the many threads here on that topic, which offer much better context.

The point I’m making on red flag laws:

Red flag laws won’t stop most shootings, and the more intrusive we make them, the more people will be flagged that don’t need to be flagged.

And focusing only on red flag laws misses the real problem: we have too many guns, especially too many military-style semi-automatic weapons in America. Until we tackle that, things are unlikely to get better.
 

Herdfan

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JayMysteri0

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Chew Toy McCoy

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I think you are putting too much on the GOP. There are plenty of Dems who would not vote for gun restrictions. I mean the Dems had control of Congress AND 60 votes in the Senate AND Obama. Why didn't they pass gun control then? They passed the ACA which cost many members their seats. So why not pass gun control?

I think it’s the same reason they didn’t codify Roe v Wade. The Democrat establishment is way more interested in winning over the center right voters, or at least not antagonizing them, than serving their traditional base. So gun control and abortion are off the table. They’ll still give lip service to some issues, but passing legislation? Forget about it. Unfortunately for them to those on the right or even right of center, giving lip service is the same thing as actually passing legislation. So they lose on both accounts. At this point they can barely even mumble there traditional support for anything unless the right takes some extreme stance or measure. But when it comes to actual legislation it’s either nothing or some sad watered down token bill.

I know from your view that you probably see this as an acceptable compromise that fits your values, but essentially it would be like the GOP building a 4 ft tall chainlink fence on the southern border and reducing your taxes by $1 a month. I don’t think you’d be singing the praises of GOP compromises there.
 

Herdfan

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I think it’s the same reason they didn’t codify Roe v Wade. The Democrat establishment is way more interested in winning over the center right voters, or at least not antagonizing them, than serving their traditional base.

Given our current party makeup, they have no choice. Both parties are controlled by the more extreme members, but they also know they their positions are not always popular with enough voters to get them elected. So they have to try an entice the middle to vote for them. It is the only way they keep power.

I look forward to the day when the middle 60% of the country forms its own party and kicks the outside 20%'s to the curb.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Given our current party makeup, they have no choice. Both parties are controlled by the more extreme members, but they also know they their positions are not always popular with enough voters to get them elected. So they have to try an entice the middle to vote for them. It is the only way they keep power.

I look forward to the day when the middle 60% of the country forms its own party and kicks the outside 20%'s to the curb.

I think that maybe the extremes of both sides get the most coverage but when it comes to implemented policy the right takes the cake for getting things done. I think the GOP is in a perpetual state of shock on what they are actually getting done in that they have to constantly do damage control or come up with increasingly preposterous justifications. Taking their stances is supposed to just get votes driven by the fear bandwagon. They aren’t supposed to actually do anything about Because eventually with all their scapegoats squashed they are going to have to start governing, especially economically, and on that they’re got nothing in the hopper. We’re well past the point of thinking lowering taxes is going to solve our economic problems. They’ve done all the favors they can for big business (with some help from Democrats) and there’s nothing left that the middle and lower classes won’t get burned in the process.
 

JayMysteri0

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Some of these guys are still NOT getting it, that they've worn the old excuses out...

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1530660149886701571/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1530660787974307840/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1530922957547220998/
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1530662328122810368/

Note the biggest expenditure. Money well spent? Some in the city maybe reconsidering. I've said it before in other threads, only one part of a city's gov't consistently gets increases while others get the cuts.

This really can become the tipping in Texas. Especially if the predictions about their power grid is true, and upcoming weather.
 
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