Guns are still America’s religion

One thing I learned from the earlier 911 call made by the men: they knew her license plate number before they started to follow her. That should have been the end of it right there.
 
SuperMatt said:
I saw the video from the body cam. This wasn’t a “public street” as reports make it sound. It’s a dirt road, maybe part of her driveway? It looks like she was on her own property when she was shot.
Click to expand...

It was most certainly a public street. The 1000 block of E Wisconsin Ave is as you noted a dirt road. Contrary to what you may believe, there are unimproved streets and roads in this country and people do live on them.

She probably was on her property when she was shot, but being on your own property doesn't remove self defense from someone else if you are pointing a gun at them.

1000 E Wisconsin Ave · 1000 E Wisconsin Ave, Orange City, FL 32763

1000 E Wisconsin Ave, Orange City, FL 32763
www.google.com www.google.com
 
Herdfan said:
It was most certainly a public street. The 1000 block of E Wisconsin Ave is as you noted a dirt road. Contrary to what you may believe, there are unimproved streets and roads in this country and people do live on them.

She probably was on her property when she was shot, but being on your own property doesn't remove self defense from someone else if you are pointing a gun at them.

1000 E Wisconsin Ave · 1000 E Wisconsin Ave, Orange City, FL 32763

1000 E Wisconsin Ave, Orange City, FL 32763
www.google.com www.google.com
Click to expand...
On the bodycam video, it looks like he is lying on a driveway, not on the street nearby. His bike is parked on somebody’s lawn - maybe hers? But either way, if a gang of armed bikers comes to your house and threatens you, and you pull a gun to defend yourself, I guess you’d be ok with dying and them going home scot-free if they draw their guns faster than you.

And again, what evidence is there that she pointed the gun at them? They don’t even use that language in their own 911 call, just saying that she “pulled a gun” - not pointed at them.

It will be his word, supported by his friends, against a person robbed of life who cannot testify. And with the terrible self-defense laws in Florida, you can basically shoot whoever you want, and then claim self-defense… because you just need to “feel” threatened in order to kill another human being legally.

Whatever happened to the “castle doctrine” that is often cited by gun rights advocates?
 
Last edited:
SuperMatt said:
On the bodycam video, it looks like he is lying on a driveway, not on the street nearby. His bike is parked on somebody’s lawn - maybe hers? But either way, if a gang of armed bikers comes to your house and threatens you, and you pull a gun to defend yourself, I guess you’d be ok with dying and them going home scot-free if they draw their guns faster than you.

And again, what evidence is there that she pointed the gun at them? They don’t even use that language in their own 911 call, just saying that she “pulled a gun” - not pointed at them.

It will be his word, supported by his friends, against a person robbed of life who cannot testify. And with the terrible self-defense laws in Florida, you can basically shoot whoever you want, and then claim self-defense… because you just need to “feel” threatened in order to kill another human being legally.

Whatever happened to the “castle doctrine” that is often cited by gun rights advocates?
Click to expand...

Two points.

She didn't know they were armed until she pulled her own weapon.

Second, had she shot them, Castle Doctrine would have protected her.
 
Herdfan said:
Two points.

She didn't know they were armed until she pulled her own weapon.

Second, had she shot them, Castle Doctrine would have protected her.
Click to expand...
Thanks.

This confirms what @P_X has been saying. The laws are setup so that whoever shoots first, wins. Everybody can claim self-defense now.

This is an untenable system. What’s the difference between this and anarchy?

In America are we moving towards making abortion a felony while making murder of a non-fetus perfectly legal.
 
lizkat said:
Wait for it... a member of Congress (Kentucky, 3d district) posted this for his 2021 Christmas greeting.

Even for fans among his constituents, the timing might not seem the best considering the school shooting deaths earlier this week.

I"m leaving aside all the GOP fake whines about non-conservatives in the USA trying to take the Christ out of Christmas


View attachment 10187
Click to expand...
Lauren Boebert is a copycat:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1468412072547520516/
 
SuperMatt said:
You don’t know if she raised it in their direction. It’s the word of the killer and his friends against a corpse. The dead tell no tales. I saw the video from the body cam. This wasn’t a “public street” as reports make it sound. It’s a dirt road, maybe part of her driveway? It looks like she was on her own property when she was shot.

I think it’s pretty insane to claim ‘self defense’ when you follow a person home and shoot them on their own lawn when they’re telling you to leave their property,
Click to expand...

Years ago, I read an analysis of crime statistics that noted the difference between the victim and the perpetrator in a homicide was often reaction time. This was based on statistics of bar fights and knives, and quite simply, the person who died hesitated slightly in their attack, while the other person was just a little quicker to violence.

Essentially, with a high prevalence of firearms and a prevalence of easy rules to use them, we've created a society where people are going to get shot because whomever "shoots first, wins."

She could have fired her weapon from cover, killed all three men, and that would have been self-defense. And, if everyone has an argument for self-defense, then the entire moral argument has collapsed.

They're all in the wrong, but as you noted, it's insane to claim 'self-defense' when you go out of your way to create a situation, and then when that situation turns violent, you react.
 
P_X said:
Or we’d know her narrative if she pulled the trigger immediately. She could have said she feared for her own and her fetus' life. Stand your ground states are medieval.
Click to expand...

She played a stupid game, she won a stupid prize.
 
JagRunner said:
Congrats. She got the reaction from the left that she wanted.
Click to expand...

Yep.

I will never forget that Madison Cawthorne said that he'd "built [his] staff around comms rather than legislation."

Essentially, the whole block of new Congress critters from the right are an effort to control and fight over messaging, and stunts like these are just attempts at attention.

Of course the lady who made sure we could see her guns in a Zoom has a shitload of guns, and will make her kids carry these guns in the Christmas card the minute that another Republican does. They're all gun-humping dorks.

What I think is more dangerous is her prejudice against Muslims, and her obvious lying about her interactions with Rep. Omar.

But, eventually, Rep. Palin-but-somehow-dumber will fall out of favor, if we focus on her lying and her prejudices rather than her guns. We know she has guns. And, the left needs to treat this as something embarrassing and small, rather than important.

Now, that's not to say that their whole armed Christian Nationalism isn't dangerous as hell, and this goes back to my long-held theory that a whole lot of gun owners are just going to be brown shirts for fascism, rather than some bulwark for freedom. They say they're there to fight for freedom, but so did the Chinese Communist party when it took over Tibet.

Christian Nationalism will undermine every amendment to the U.S. Constitution, break down every wall between religion and government, and expand its own ideals to every bit of the culture that it can. And, it will do so violently if it can get away with it.
 
Perhaps because of the Rittenhouse verdict, we now have Jan 6 rioters trying to claim self-defense in their trials.

We have a serious problem with the self-defense laws in this country.

www.nytimes.com

Some Jan. 6 Rioters May Use Police Brutality as a Defense (Published 2021)

Half a dozen defendants in the assault on the Capitol are using video to try to make a case that they were simply protecting themselves and others. They face skepticism and an uphill legal battle.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
(paywall removed)

At this point, about a half-dozen Jan. 6 defendants have signaled that they intend to mount a case that is based on self-defense or on the defense of others.

On Thursday, for example, a lawyer for Thomas Webster, a former New York City police officer charged with assault, indicated that he was inclined to pursue a self-defense case and argue that officers at the Capitol struck first. That same day, prosecutors filed papers in the case of Robert Gieswein, a militia member from Colorado, asking a judge to bar all self-defense claims at a trial set for February, suggesting that they believed Mr. Gieswein might raise them.
Click to expand...
The first person to have said he would pursue a self-defense case was Edward Jacob Lang, a self-described social media influencer from New York. He has been charged with seven counts of assaulting officers, some with a riot shield and others with a baseball bat.
Click to expand...
 
SuperMatt said:
Perhaps because of the Rittenhouse verdict, we now have Jan 6 rioters trying to claim self-defense in their trials.

We have a serious problem with the self-defense laws in this country.

www.nytimes.com

Some Jan. 6 Rioters May Use Police Brutality as a Defense (Published 2021)

Half a dozen defendants in the assault on the Capitol are using video to try to make a case that they were simply protecting themselves and others. They face skepticism and an uphill legal battle.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
(paywall removed)
Click to expand...
There's some classic disingenuous hypocrisy / irony. The crowd that cheered on when the police heavy handedly weighed into BLM protests, wants to whine about police being mean to them. Fuck these people. Not one of them got their head bopped into the side of a car, like their cherished leader wanted police to do.
 
So let me get this straight, having kids wear basically body armor in school ( let the fucking concept sink, 1st world problems y'all ) is okay, but wearing a mask is going to far?!

🤬🤬🤬🤬

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1468617037668884482/

When shooters realize ( since they will also be the kids assigned body armor ) realize they need armor piercing rounds, what's the solution then? Still not anything about guns? Really?

But masks... :brickwall:
 
JayMysteri0 said:
So let me get this straight, having kids wear basically body armor in school ( let the fucking concept sink, 1st world problems y'all ) is okay, but wearing a mask is going to far?!

🤬🤬🤬🤬

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1468617037668884482/

When shooters realize ( since they will also be the kids assigned body armor ) realize they need armor piercing rounds, what's the solution then? Still not anything about guns? Really?

But masks... :brickwall:
Click to expand...
They'll next need steel-plated hats or maybe new age helmets that cover the top of the torso. Hell, maybe steel suits are coming soon-ish :mad:
 
hulugu said:
Years ago, I read an analysis of crime statistics that noted the difference between the victim and the perpetrator in a homicide was often reaction time. This was based on statistics of bar fights and knives, and quite simply, the person who died hesitated slightly in their attack, while the other person was just a little quicker to violence.

Essentially, with a high prevalence of firearms and a prevalence of easy rules to use them, we've created a society where people are going to get shot because whomever "shoots first, wins."

She could have fired her weapon from cover, killed all three men, and that would have been self-defense. And, if everyone has an argument for self-defense, then the entire moral argument has collapsed.

They're all in the wrong, but as you noted, it's insane to claim 'self-defense' when you go out of your way to create a situation, and then when that situation turns violent, you react.
Click to expand...
And this awakens the neuroscientist in me. People with antisocial personality disorder have their brains wired really differently. They won’t have the hesitation most average empathetic person has. I have a friend like this, I call him a humanistic sociopath, he’s very impulsive has a very quick wit and he never hesitates making split-second decisions. For him empathy comes in a secondary layer which he actually had to learn And takes extra effort.

If society starts encouraging and rewarding people to be the quicker in violence, antisocial people will have a field day…and well, they call it antisocial for a reason.
 
JagRunner said:
She played a stupid game, she won a stupid prize.
Click to expand...
Since the investigation is still open, you opinion is just prejudice. Also, i see you want to beat @jkcerda at using this phrase the most on this forum.

SuperMatt said:
Perhaps because of the Rittenhouse verdict, we now have Jan 6 rioters trying to claim self-defense in their trials.

We have a serious problem with the self-defense laws in this country.

www.nytimes.com

Some Jan. 6 Rioters May Use Police Brutality as a Defense (Published 2021)

Half a dozen defendants in the assault on the Capitol are using video to try to make a case that they were simply protecting themselves and others. They face skepticism and an uphill legal battle.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
(paywall removed)
Click to expand...

This is going to be
the mental image that would symbolize this is White Privilege smoking meth then start contorting itself to go to town on itself while uttering homophobic slurs
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top