Guns are still America’s religion

ronntaylor said:
They'll next need steel-plated hats or maybe new age helmets that cover the top of the torso. Hell, maybe steel suits are coming soon-ish :mad:
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All because we supposedly need arms borne in the care of a well-regulated militia to protect the body politic.

Seemed to me --and not least right around the time the Sandy Hook school shooting occurred-- that as a nation we had already fallen way short of "well regulated" arms-bearing, never mind how militia might fit into our modern 2A picture. tbh it might seem like there's more self-regulation than formal legal constraints on straw purchasers runnin' and gunnin' their hauls from states with lax laws to states with stricter ones... i mean they keep getting away with it because the buy-sides of the original transactions ARE STILL --absurdly-- ENTIRELY LEGAL.

The icing on the cake of my concern was when Congress couldn't get it together to do a f'g thing in the wake of that Sandy Hook slaughter. Talk about days of infamy.

No lobby for any industry should be allowed to buy such political power. Yet there we were, and here we still are because the NRA are still doing it, even in the face of myriad investigations of their finances, charges of abuse of their charitable foundation, tax evasion charges, judges tossing out their bankruptcy pleas as fraudulent attempts to evade regulation, and etc.

In January 2021 the NRA even mailed their usual over the top warnings about "armed government agents storming your house, taking your guns, and hauling you off to prison" -- and to top that off, in an appeal for donations, bragged that “only the NRA has the strength to win knock-down brawls on Capitol Hill.”

I don't have a problem with civilians owning guns for self defense or hunting. Those gun owners don't need AR-15 style weapons or high capacity ammo-feed either. I have a problem with lax enforcement and with some law enforcement officers deciding which "gun control" laws they'll bother to observe or enforce.

It's time for voters to challenge the braggart NRA by making it clear to elected officials at state and federal levels that accepting donations from the gun lobby in exchange for lax regulation of weaponry and ammunition options is well beyond the pale. And time to quit winking at gun acquisition and ownership law loopholes that one could still fly a cargo plane though. The cost to innocent life of a failure to regulate properly has always been too high, and the cost of reasonable regulation to honest hunters and home or self defenders all too often (and luridly) exaggerated.
 
lizkat said:
Seemed to me --and not least right around the time the Sandy Hook school shooting occurred-- that as a nation we had already fallen way short of "well regulated" arms-bearing, never mind how militia might fit into our modern 2A picture. tbh it might seem like there's more self-regulation than formal legal constraints
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You understand that that is not what "well regulated" means, right? In the original language, in which it has to be interpreted, a well regulated militia was one that functioned well, in the way that they would say that a well regulated clock kept good time.

Which should mean that gun ownership could come with licensing, the same way that motor vehicles do. But the gundamentalists oppose even that.
 
Yoused said:
You understand that that is not what "well regulated" means, right? In the original language, in which it has to be interpreted, a well regulated militia was one that functioned well, in the way that they would say that a well regulated clock kept good time.

Which should mean that gun ownership could come with licensing, the same way that motor vehicles do. But the gundamentalists oppose even that.
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In the original language, the “arms” one could bear included swords and muskets… not ar-15s.
 
Yoused said:
You understand that that is not what "well regulated" means, right? In the original language, in which it has to be interpreted, a well regulated militia was one that functioned well, in the way that they would say that a well regulated clock kept good time.

Which should mean that gun ownership could come with licensing, the same way that motor vehicles do. But the gundamentalists oppose even that.
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SuperMatt said:
In the original language, the “arms” one could bear included swords and muskets… not ar-15s.
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I'm sure the Founding Fathers would be proud of metal detectors and school body armors..
 
Yoused said:
You understand that that is not what "well regulated" means, right? In the original language, in which it has to be interpreted, a well regulated militia was one that functioned well, in the way that they would say that a well regulated clock kept good time.

Which should mean that gun ownership could come with licensing, the same way that motor vehicles do. But the gundamentalists oppose even that.
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It goes even further than that, the concept of a militia has a service element and organizational structures overseen by an elected governing body. Militia doesn't mean a couple of fucknuts go out and buy guns and they're now a militia, it's more akin to being in the National Guard and keeping your equipment at home (one of my legal professors said something to this effect, he was a published constitutional scholar). It's a very specific use case for ownership.
 
DT said:
It goes even further than that, the concept of a militia has a service element and organizational structures overseen by an elected governing body. Militia doesn't mean a couple of fucknuts go out and buy guns and they're now a militia, it's more akin to being in the National Guard and keeping your equipment at home (one of my legal professors said something to this effect, he was a published constitutional scholar). It's a very specific use case for ownership.
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I agree with this 100% - the current 2nd amendment interpretation is NOT ”originalist” in any way, shape, or form. The right-wingers on the court are straight-up lying on that and they know it. They know that history as well as (probably better than) anhbody.
 
Yoused said:
What form of public education, accessible to whom, was envisioned by the founding fathers?
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Yet another good point. Which is why I think the “originalist” interpretation is a load of 🐴💩 coming from (the late) Justice Scalia and like-minded judges. It’s used an excuse for pushing ”conservative” interpretations of the law.
 
Yoused said:
What form of public education, accessible to whom, was envisioned by the founding fathers?
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Well, schools existed then too, and I suspect their parents too envisioned their children not to be massacred in school. It's just human nature, I guess.
 
SuperMatt said:
I agree with this 100% - the current 2nd amendment interpretation is NOT ”originalist” in any way, shape, or form. The right-wingers on the court are straight-up lying on that and they know it. They know that history as well as (probably better than) anhbody.
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There's a definite pattern that I've seen all over: 🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗 from 2A advocates when the actual 2nd Amendment is discussed.
The funny thing is, I really want to understand how they actually interpret the text, because I, on my own, just not seeing what they are seeing.
 
P_X said:
There's a definite pattern that I've seen all over: 🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗 from 2A advocates when the actual 2nd Amendment is discussed.
The funny thing is, I really want to understand how they actually interpret the text, because I, on my own, just not seeing what they are seeing.
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I enjoyed this article from the History channel about the amendment. There’s little indication it was ever meant to be interpreted the way it is today.

historycooperative.org

The Second Amendment: A Complete History of the Right to Bear Arms

As a citizen of the United States, do I have the right to massacre a large group of my fellow citizens with my legally purchased AR-15? Of course not. However, over the last two decades, a number of individuals have done exactly that; the settings of each incident now existing infused with...
historycooperative.org historycooperative.org
 
I like THIS idea of something different in the realm of takes on the "pro-life" movement. December 14th is the anniversary of the Sandy Hook slaughter in 2012 of 20 first graders and their six teachers / administrators.​
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a different take on pro-life ideals.jpg
​
 
hulugu said:
a whole lot of gun owners are just going to be brown shirts for fascism, rather than some bulwark for freedom. They say they're there to fight for freedom, but so did the Chinese Communist party when it took over Tibet.
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I read an article earlier talking about how the Democrat party used to be the party of freedom, saying it directly, and in understanding that living as a wage slave with housing instability means you’re not free and making a living also meant it also allowed you something to live for. Just paying your bills isn’t freedom or something you live for. The target was the oligarchs supported by Republicans that caused the Great Depression.

In that context I don’t know what these gun nuts think they are doing, that we’re going to reach the point that when it comes time to pay their rent or mortgage they’re going to show up, have a shootout, and if they don’t die than consider it paid for that month? Freedom!?
 
Chew Toy McCoy said:
I read an article earlier talking about how the Democrat party used to be the party of freedom, saying it directly, and in understanding that living as a wage slave with housing instability means you’re not free and making a living also meant it also allowed you something to live for. Just paying your bills isn’t freedom or something you live for. The target was the oligarchs supported by Republicans that caused the Great Depression.

In that context I don’t know what these gun nuts think they are doing, that we’re going to reach the point that when it comes time to pay their rent or mortgage they’re going to show up, have a shootout, and if they don’t die than consider it paid for that month? Freedom!?
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Yeah, It's important to note that most of the people with large numbers of shiny-new AR-15s are relatively wealthy, and not the supposed members of the middle class. They're well-off right now.

However, assuming a massive economic down-turn, maybe they could sell these weapons off. But considering that the market is probably saturated, I expect that a whole lot of people end up selling these for pennies on the dollar to cover the mortgage.

I also don't see many of these people pulling a Dillinger, or a Manhattan Savings and Loan bank job, and robbing a bank to save the mortgage. Mostly, I expect a rash of suicides and murder-suicides as these gun nuts decide to kill their own starving family and themselves.

It goes back to my whole problem with the zombie apocalypse, SHTF, prepper world. Like there are good reasons to have an earthquake kit or some supplies. But, people are investing real money in the idea that society will collapse, rather than trying to keep society from collapsing in the first place. And, gun nuts are largely dangerous freaks in a disaster, when what people really need are generators, field kitchens, and chainsaws.

Having been to a lot of places where shit hit the fan, I've yet to see armed roving patrols do a lick of good compared to the one person who has a good medical kit with some field dressings, Advil and antibiotics. Mostly, these guys get in the way, try to "control" the situation with force, and when things get really bad, start acting as armed gangs.
 
Chew Toy McCoy said:
www.cnn.com

North Carolina 3-year-old who accidentally shot herself on Christmas Day has died | CNN

Aylee Gordon, a 3-year-old girl who accidentally suffered a gunshot wound on Christmas Day, died Tuesday evening, according to a release from the Henderson County Sheriff's Office.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

As Stalin said "One child accidentally shooting themselves or others is a tragedy. Thousands of children doing it is American."
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These stories are a regular occurrence, and still people think “It’s a good idea to have unlocked firearms around the house.” Oh well, it’s been obvious since Sandy Hook that many Americans love their guns more than their kids. What a shame…
 
SuperMatt said:
These stories are a regular occurrence, and still people think “It’s a good idea to have unlocked firearms around the house.” Oh well, it’s been obvious since Sandy Hook that many Americans love their guns more than their kids. What a shame…
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I think it's safe to assume that there are patriots out there who feel one citizen killed by one illegal is one way too many. But in these near-daily or weekly situations it's all "let's not jump to conclusions".
 
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