Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel
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2023 and these holy wars are still going on. I saw a clip of a kidnapping on the news. Ugh.
The things being done are every bit as bad or worse as the terrorists who were kidnapping journalists and civilians in the Middle East in the wake of 9/11 and filming them being tortured or murdered,
I’ve got a lot of criticisms of Netanyahu and Israel, but in light of this, it’s not really worth much; in this instance, we must be united with Israel in the same way we should be Ukraine.
Of course, none of this would have ever happened if we had just re-elected the guy who’s too dumb to even understand what is happening over there, the same guy trying to whip up his own terrorist organization in this country. The Sharper Image Steak guy alone can fix it.
The things being done are every bit as bad or worse as the terrorists who were kidnapping journalists and civilians in the Middle East in the wake of 9/11 and filming them being tortured or murdered,
I’ve got a lot of criticisms of Netanyahu and Israel, but in light of this, it’s not really worth much; in this instance, we must be united with Israel in the same way we should be Ukraine.
Of course, none of this would have ever happened if we had just re-elected the guy who’s too dumb to even understand what is happening over there, the same guy trying to whip up his own terrorist organization in this country. The Sharper Image Steak guy alone can fix it.
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On that subject, here's a timely and interesting video I watched this morning about the rise of fascism/nazism in the US during the late 1930s. With strong parallels to what's been happening today. Stay vigilant.
Rachel Maddow on "Prequel" and the rise of the fascist movement in America
Prior to World War II, antisemites and Nazi sympathizers in the U.S. plotted to set up a Hitler-style dictatorship in America. Rachel Maddow says we are seeing another threat to democracy from the ultra-right today.
www.cbsnews.com
Yeah I’m seeing a lot of this:
That religious right doesn’t join the IDF, commits ethnic cleaning against Palestinians in their illegal settlements outside of Israel’s borders, demands protection in their illegal settlements, and the far right government obliged leaving the Israelis in Israel’s legal borders completely defenseless. People are pissed.
On that subject, here's a timely and interesting video I watched this morning about the rise of fascism/nazism in the US during the late 1930s. With strong parallels to what's been happening today. Stay vigilant.
Rachel Maddow on "Prequel" and the rise of the fascist movement in America
Prior to World War II, antisemites and Nazi sympathizers in the U.S. plotted to set up a Hitler-style dictatorship in America. Rachel Maddow says we are seeing another threat to democracy from the ultra-right today.
You know it’s amazing how many of a certain political persuasion who will deny the Ukrainians agency and the ability to fight Russia’s military forces are simultaneously praising or excusing Hamas targeting civilians in their “righteous struggle” against Israel’s oppression. Many of those same people support or excuse Assad. And I’ll be clear: people who reflexively support anything Israel does are not really any different - and there are a number of those who also deny Ukrainians the right to resist. We’d like to say this is all on the right but, and I know this isn’t a new observation, but “red” fascism is not really any different than “brown” fascism. Amazing I suppose is the wrong word. As so much in this era, it’s shocking but not surprising.
Nycturne
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I don’t think the parallels to Ukraine strengthen your argument. Israel, much like the US, is a nation built on the expulsion of people living on land that the new nation state has taken for itself in agreements made with third parties. Ukraine stood as a sovereign nation before and after the Soviet Union.
No, I will not stand united with a nation that has been actively engaging in an “apartheid” of their own. Does that excuse the tactics being used by Hamas here or make it righteous? No. But do I kinda get how we got here? Yes. And it reminds me of MLK’s discussion of riots being the language of the unheard. Specifically, that while we should condemn the violence of the riots themselves, we must equally condemn the actions, policies, and conditions that led to them in the first place. And this situation is much more akin to our own messy history with race and indigenous people than it is Ukraine.
What Martin Luther King Jr Really Thought About Riots
Unrest in Baltimore has an old MLK quote back in the news
Similarly to your argument that parallels to an Ukraine don’t strengthen his argument, I think claiming parallels to MLK is far more invalid: riots as the language of the unheard? sure. Rape, torture, and murder of civilians including children? Then parading the naked, stripped dead bodies through the streets? Surrounding a peace festival literally devoted to calling for peace and reconciliation and murdering them? And these are just the things Hamas have themselves uploaded onto the internet for their supporters to jeer at. They’re proud of it. Nah I can condemn that pretty unequivocally without invoking MLK’s “language of the unheard”.I don’t think the parallels to Ukraine strengthen your argument. Israel, much like the US, is a nation built on the expulsion of people living on land that the new nation state has taken for itself in agreements made with third parties. Ukraine stood as a sovereign nation before and after the Soviet Union.
No, I will not stand united with a nation that has been actively engaging in an “apartheid” of their own. Does that excuse the tactics being used by Hamas here or make it righteous? No. But do I kinda get how we got here? Yes. And it reminds me of MLK’s discussion of riots being the language of the unheard. Specifically, that while we should condemn the violence of the riots themselves, we must equally condemn the actions, policies, and conditions that led to them in the first place. And this situation is much more akin to our own messy history with race and indigenous people than it is Ukraine.
What Martin Luther King Jr Really Thought About Riots
Unrest in Baltimore has an old MLK quote back in the newstime.com
(edit: I just want to add that I understand that you don’t support what Hamas is doing, but I strongly feel that even invoking the parallel of MLK’s words on unrest is not appropriate here either.)
Just to be clear: I agree that Israel and especially its nearly continuous succession of far right governments the last (edit: almost) 30 years (since Rabin’s assassination) deserve condemnation for ethnic cleansing, apartheid, “collateral damage”, and just outright murder - including of a journalist by security forces earlier this year.
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For the record, I have been to Israel several times and have spoken to relatives, friends, and colleagues there and in the U.S. about the Palestinian situation for many years. I oppose Netanyahu's policies on West Bank settlements and recognize the need for a Palestinian state. I also have opposed Israeli incursions into the Gaza strip that have killed many innocent people, though it is difficult to know what they should do with Hamas deeply embedded there. However, in saying that you won't stand with Israel because of conditions, actions, and policies ignores the history of the region.I don’t think the parallels to Ukraine strengthen your argument. Israel, much like the US, is a nation built on the expulsion of people living on land that the new nation state has taken for itself in agreements made with third parties. Ukraine stood as a sovereign nation before and after the Soviet Union.
No, I will not stand united with a nation that has been actively engaging in an “apartheid” of their own. Does that excuse the tactics being used by Hamas here or make it righteous? No. But do I kinda get how we got here? Yes. And it reminds me of MLK’s discussion of riots being the language of the unheard. Specifically, that while we should condemn the violence of the riots themselves, we must equally condemn the actions, policies, and conditions that led to them in the first place. And this situation is much more akin to our own messy history with race and indigenous people than it is Ukraine.
What Martin Luther King Jr Really Thought About Riots
Unrest in Baltimore has an old MLK quote back in the news
You failed to note (or perhaps you are unaware of) a fundamental point: Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations who deny Israel's right to exist, as does Iran, which supports both. Given their stance, meaningful negotiation isn't possible. Absent a change that I don't see coming, I fear the turmoil and killing will continue.
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I'm curious as to who supplied the rockets and other weapons to Hamas. And if that happens to be Iran (my guess), what the consequences will be. I suspect that's now being gamed out and there will soon be an Israeli response.
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An interesting development:
edition.cnn.com
US Navy moves carrier strike group to eastern Mediterranean Sea with Israel at war
Fighting in Israel is raging a day after Hamas fighters breached the border from Gaza in a surprise attack, killing hundreds of people. Follow for live updates.
Another analysis:
Thread by @AnshelPfeffer on Thread Reader App
@AnshelPfeffer: 24 hours after Hamas’ devastating attack on southern Israel. A few thoughts. Everyone is comparing this, with good reason to the strategic surprise Egypt and Syria sprang on Israel 50 years ago in th...…threadreaderapp.com
Contends this was a result of a complete failure of the strategic planning by Netanyahu and goes into what that “security concept” was and what went wrong. As more information becomes available, more specific analyses will emerge but this is the overall consensus I’m seeing so far. No one thinks this was “deliberate”, the government’s initial response was too slow and too inept. Also doesn’t fit with Netanyahu’s agenda. He wants Hamas around as a minor irritant to keep people just scared enough to keep voting for his corrupt government. He does not want a major ground war slogging through one of the world’s densest populated areas where the IDF gets bogged down in street to street fighting. He does not want a complete failure of security as delivering “security” is what he bases his legitimacy on.
I can’t verify but comes from two Israeli sources (who are not fans of Netanyahu but even so it fits - note they are not saying that Hamas and Likud are friends or coordinate but are “allies” in that they previously used each other to stay in power and maintain the status quo).
This could get really fucking bad. I mean this will likely be a very ugly war regardless - a ground war through Gaza will kill a lot of people, including civilians, but this could spiral.
Edit:
As I said this is going to get really bad regardless.
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We should be precise: the “policies in the West Bank” is ethnic cleansing and if there were justice in the world Netanyahu would be in The Hague for crimes against humanity. He’s a fascist son of bitch. There’s a reason he gets along so well with Putin. They’re birds of a fucking feather.
This I agree with. They’re genocidal organizations. The only silver lining to all the death that’s happened and is about to happen is the possibility that both Hamas and Likud/Netanyahu will be destroyed as a going concern. A heavy price to pay in innocent lives though with no guarantees of peace afterwards. Humanity can be such a fucking disgrace.
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Agree completely. Right wing religious zealots are dangerous, regardless of the religion.
Nycturne
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I more wanted to point out that the flow of things leading to this didn’t happen in a vacuum any more than riots happen in a vacuum. Specifically because this situation is closer to an apartheid style occupation (and not by the Palestinians).
I’m not sure how it is that different beyond scale of unacceptability. MLK’s comments are ultimately about how we focus on the reaction of those who have had their futures curtailed through policy, and use that to ultimately give a pass to the policies that did the damage in the first place. To focus on the symptom instead of the underlying disease. And to be honest, I’ve been pretty pessimistic about the region for a couple decades now because of where focus has gone.
The nature of the attacks themselves are horrific. The fact that this continues to escalate should not be surpising.
The history of the region is mired in problems. But it’s precisely the history of the region that makes me a little skeptical here. The creation of Israel was done to the region (much like many other colonizing projects of European powers in Africa, the Americas and elsewhere). I sympathize with the intent behind it, but it doesn’t change the fact that the nation was founded through the suffering and displacement of others. Something that the state has continued to pursue as the population expands.
I sympathize with the people on both sides here that are getting caught in the middle of all this. But I don’t think Israel as a state has earned any “get out of jail free” card here. To do so would make me a hypocrite.
The issue I take is that those policies you yourself mention are the single best recruiting tool these organizations have. Taking everything from someone by destroying their home and property, displacing them, killing their friends, family and neighbors… It shouldn’t be that surprising that leads to receptive ears when someone comes whispering thoughts of revenge and reclaiming what was lost.
Ultimately, my point isn’t that Hamas et al is justified here. Eye for an eye certainly cannot lead to healing. Retribution borne out of nihilism cannot be the source of anything constructive. Giving the most radical elements power leads to more ugliness, suffering, and death. But more that I cannot simply rally around an entity that itself has helped plant the seeds for much of this over the years. It didn’t have to be this event specifically, but with the direction things have been heading, there’s not too many ways this can go. The power has been given to people with no desire to find peace or compromise, and as time progresses, the younger generations are less willing to compromise.
At this point, all I can do is lament what is to come.
If Israeli leadership pays a price here, that would be a bit of a silver lining. My worry is that it will lead to doubling down on the very policies that continue the cycle, even if the leadership is replaced. It takes a weird kind of person to break a cycle of violence like this one that has gotten this far along. The best time to address this was nearly 50 years ago.
I would argue that eventually a difference in scale is a difference in kind. This one such instance.
A lot went wrong in 1948, but it would equally disingenuous to suggest it was all the Israeli/West/UN. The Arabs and Palestinians played a massive role in how things unfolded and not for the positive. They ensure that it was borne through violence and then displacement because they thought they would be the ones doing the violence and displacement (there were already many longstanding Jewish communities which formed the backbone of the new Israeli state that in 1948 the Arabs decided to attack and try to eliminate). It didn’t have to be that way. This is not to suggest that the Israelis and West and UN likewise don’t share any blame. Indeed one only need to look at the political antecedents of Likud were in those days to see that - violent *jewish* terrorists. But I want to push back against the notion that they were the only ones to blame.
I would say 30 years ago there was still hope, but that died with Rabin and even more so the election of Netanyahu. Sometimes, I know rarely, horror like this kind also push the other way. We can only hope.
Good questions. Remember with all these reports, even from reputable journalists doing due diligence, it can take awhile for the fog of war to lift and figure out what actually happened. And some questions we may never find the answer to.