Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

[mac_in_tosh]

Like I said before, this action is creating far more enemies than they've ever had and for that reason alone their response has been the wrong one for their future security and world standing.

You quoted me but the rest of the paragraph that contained the above sentence didn't seem related to what I wrote. In any case, I've asked this several times but to my knowledge there hasn't been an answer. So tell us please, from what I assume is your distant, safe location, what "response" to a fanatical, homicidal enemy dedicated to the killing of as many Israeli civilians as possible and ultimately Israel's destruction would have been the right one? What would you have had Israel do in response to the atrocities of Oct. 7?

And as far as creating enemies, the Arabs never needed much of an excuse to attack. Even before the state of Israel was established they attacked historically Jewish villages in the area based on the flimsiest of reasons. After the Arabs didn't accept the U.N. partition plan and Israel was established, the Arabs started multiple wars in the succeeding decades. As for Gaza, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, including the Israeli army forcibly removing settlers (and they only occupied Gaza as a result of being attacked in the Six Day War). According to your logic, those actions should have made Gazans their friends.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

You quoted me but the rest of the paragraph that contained the above sentence didn't seem related to what I wrote. In any case, I've asked this several times but to my knowledge there hasn't been an answer. So tell us please, from what I assume is your distant, safe location, what "response" to a fanatical, homicidal enemy dedicated to the killing of as many Israeli civilians as possible and ultimately Israel's destruction would have been the right one? What would you have had Israel do in response to the atrocities of Oct. 7?

OK, here's a solution. Complete replacement of leadership on both sides with a new generation with the top priority of peaceful coexistence and regional prosperity. Within both sides a dedication to weeding out and prosecuting their extremists that makes that goal near impossible. Understand this initially won't be 100% successful but success will happen over time. Enough with this historical chicken or the egg bullshit. And enough with the ruling class propaganda that the majority doesn't want that. Most people want to live their life in peace.

 

[Citysnaps]

Pure speculation on my part... It's been three weeks since Iran launched a barrage of 200 ballistic missiles on Israel. That apparently was in retaliation of Israel taking out one of Hamas' leaders, Ismail Haniyeh, while visiting Iran. He was the one who green-lighted the October 7th (2023) attack on Israel.

To me... that three week pause by Israel is interesting, believing that Israel, like many countries, have contingency plans ready to execute when attacked. Israel is saying an attack is coming. But so far, nothing.

The above leads me to believe there are secret negotiations, possibly last ditch, going on behind the scenes, likely fostered by the US and possibly European and Middle East countries.

If so, will that result in a long term solution where everyone gets along? Of course not. But an agreed upon cessation of hostilities could be a start. Thus my optimism. Again... speculation.

 

[fischersd]

There has to be a two state solution. Israel has their country, Palestine has theirs. (and I think Jerusalem is too important to too many religions, so it should be independent, under the governance of the UN).

Israel has been persecuting the Palestinians long enough....we shouldn't be supporting them - we should have forced a peace and carved up the territory into two countries.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

OK, here's a solution. Complete replacement of leadership on both sides with a new generation with the top priority of peaceful coexistence and regional prosperity. Within both sides a dedication to weeding out and prosecuting their extremists that makes that goal near impossible. Understand this initially won't be 100% successful but success will happen over time. Enough with this historical chicken or the egg bullshit. And enough with the ruling class propaganda that the majority doesn't want that. Most people want to live their life in peace.

Your "solution" would be great but is of no practical value in the short (or even likely long) term. So once again, you have strong - and I think sometimes exaggerated - criticism of Israel's response to Oct. 7 but do not provide any realistic alternative for dealing with a fanatical regime in Gaza that is dedicated to its destruction, that puts its own people at risk, that launches rockets into Israeli civilian areas and that has vowed to repeat the atrocities of that day whenever possible. As the leader of Israel on Oct. 7, what would Chew Toy McCoy have done?

And I take issue with your "chicken and egg" analogy. Jews accepted the U.N. partition plan despite getting mostly desert and swamp land (and Arabs getting a new nation of Jordan) but the Arabs didn't and commenced to attack the new state of Israel. Imagine how the history of the region would be different had that not occured. Succeeding decades saw more wars. No side is completely blameless of course, but the overwhelming historical evidence is clear - Arabs have tried to destroy Israel from the very beginning. And as I mentioned, even before that - the 1929 massacre in the historically Jewish village of Hebron was a result of unfounded rumors that Jews were planning to seize the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. That's all it took.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Your "solution" would be great but is of no practical value in the short (or even likely long) term. So once again, you have strong - and I think sometimes exaggerated - criticism of Israel's response to Oct. 7 but do not provide any realistic alternative for dealing with a fanatical regime in Gaza that is dedicated to its destruction, that puts its own people at risk, that launches rockets into Israeli civilian areas and that has vowed to repeat the atrocities of that day whenever possible. As the leader of Israel on Oct. 7, what would Chew Toy McCoy have done?

And I take issue with your "chicken and egg" analogy. Jews accepted the U.N. partition plan despite getting mostly desert and swamp land (and Arabs getting a new nation of Jordan) but the Arabs didn't and commenced to attack the new state of Israel. Imagine how the history of the region would be different had that not occured. Succeeding decades saw more wars. No side is completely blameless of course, but the overwhelming historical evidence is clear - Arabs have tried to destroy Israel from the very beginning. And as I mentioned, even before that - the 1929 massacre in the historically Jewish village of Hebron was a result of unfounded rumors that Jews were planning to seize the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. That's all it took.

I disagree that just because I believe something is wrong that I then have to have an all-encompassing solution. Wrong is wrong. The view of Isreal apologists seems to be “We haven’t found a solution yet. In the meantime we’ll just continue the daily mass death and destruction.” Do that over a long enough period of time and there’ll be nothing left to destroy and nobody left to kill. There, you solved it. Total coincidence. Not a genocide.

It is chicken or the egg. People continually move the goal posts of historical land claims and which side agreed to something while the other didn’t to suit their perspective.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

The good guys.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

I disagree that just because I believe something is wrong that I then have to have an all-encompassing solution. Wrong is wrong. The view of Isreal apologists seems to be “We haven’t found a solution yet. In the meantime we’ll just continue the daily mass death and destruction.” Do that over a long enough period of time and there’ll be nothing left to destroy and nobody left to kill. There, you solved it. Total coincidence. Not a genocide.

No one was asking for an all-encompassing solution, just an alternative to what Israel should have done after Oct. 7 that would meet with your standards. But since multiple attempts to get you to provide that have failed, I take it as an admission that you recognize there is no alternative. So you are criticizing Israel for doing what Hamas has forced it to do, while you seem to always leave Hamas out of the aim of your moral outrage. The large death toll in Gaza is a result of Hamas' actions starting the war and forcing their population to be involved in the battles. As I mentioned, the "daily mass death and destruction" could end immediately if Hamas surrenders, disarms and releases the hostages. Ask yourself why they are not doing that, why you seem to care more about Gazans than they do.

Genocide is "the systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group." Casualties of war are not a genocide. But in some quarters this term was applied to Israel's actions barely after the first rocket launcher was taken out. Did you label Oct. 7's direct targeting of Israeli civilians, including babies, as genocide? Do you label firing missiles at random into civilian populations trying to kill as many civilians as possible as genocide?

Soon after Oct. 7 I asked in this forum what Hamas could possibly have thought to gain by the attack as it was almost certain they could not win a war with Israel. I think there are three things. One is the cruel satisfaction they got by going on a murderous rampage. Another is that by forcing Israel to attack Gaza, knowing there would be many casualties, they could provoke exactly the reaction against Israel that you have. And another is the hope to widen the conflict. It seems they have succeeded so far in the first two and possibly all three.

 

[Alli]

I’m just gonna watch this thread for a while and remain worry because my son leaves tonight for Israel. At least this time he has a round-trip ticket.

 

[Citysnaps]

A bit more optimism:

"Blinken announces plan to resume Gaza cease-fire talks

U.S. and Israeli negotiators are set to travel to Doha, Qatar, in the coming days to attempt to reach a cease-fire and hostage deal in Gaza, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Thursday."

Loading…

wapo.st

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

No one was asking for an all-encompassing solution, just an alternative to what Israel should have done after Oct. 7 that would meet with your standards. But since multiple attempts to get you to provide that have failed, I take it as an admission that you recognize there is no alternative. So you are criticizing Israel for doing what Hamas has forced it to do, while you seem to always leave Hamas out of the aim of your moral outrage. The large death toll in Gaza is a result of Hamas' actions starting the war and forcing their population to be involved in the battles. As I mentioned, the "daily mass death and destruction" could end immediately if Hamas surrenders, disarms and releases the hostages. Ask yourself why they are not doing that, why you seem to care more about Gazans than they do.

Genocide is "the systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group." Casualties of war are not a genocide. But in some quarters this term was applied to Israel's actions barely after the first rocket launcher was taken out. Did you label Oct. 7's direct targeting of Israeli civilians, including babies, as genocide? Do you label firing missiles at random into civilian populations trying to kill as many civilians as possible as genocide?

Soon after Oct. 7 I asked in this forum what Hamas could possibly have thought to gain by the attack as it was almost certain they could not win a war with Israel. I think there are three things. One is the cruel satisfaction they got by going on a murderous rampage. Another is that by forcing Israel to attack Gaza, knowing there would be many casualties, they could provoke exactly the reaction against Israel that you have. And another is the hope to widen the conflict. It seems they have succeeded so far in the first two and possibly all three.

You keep asking me to come up with an alternative that pertains specifically to 10/7 but that’s generally a trap that leads to moving the goal posts “OK, but in 1957…….and over in Iran…….”, but I’ll offer an alternative solution or strategy pertaining specifically to 10/7 if you don’t move the goal posts.

Today, right now Isreal stops all the death and destruction in Gaza. Unconditional. Don’t get bogged down in some “temporary ceasefire” propaganda loophole. Then very publicly continue negotiations for the release of the remaining hostages and more importantly a roadmap to peace and more prosperity for the Palestinians that will make this quagmire less likely to continue. Let the world see all negotiation points and reasons specific points are being rejected. While this is ongoing stop the settlement expansions. WTF is wrong with those idiots?

Acknowledge there are justifiable reasons for some people to be pissed off on both sides due to 10/7 and actions taken since then. Form groups of equal Israelis and Palestinians dedicated to peace to go after groups on both sides using violence to thwart the current peace process and bring them to justice or their maker. Do it as surgically as possible and make the operations as public as possible without risking operational safety and success.

There may have been some transparency on these attempts in the past but it was still under ruling class information gatekeepers and before the ravenous internet information junkies. Let us see point by point who is being unreasonable and what valid concerns would be for rejecting points.

I hold Hamas responsible for the 10/7 attacks and continued hostage situation. They should be dismantled, responsible members brought to justice, and any enemy of the peace ideology eradicated as much as possible. You can’t kill an idea. (But apparently you can righteously kill anybody within 100 ft of that idea.)

There are monsters in their ranks, but I don’t buy into the blanket human shield narrative. What are they supposed to do, go stand out in the middle of an open field or hold up in an isolated easily destroyed base by a vastly superior military force? Nobody would do that, including the US. The view seems to be that if one side isn’t capable of having a gentleman’s war then they should just give up and have whatever shit life they are allowed to have. Nobody is capable of having a gentleman’s war against the US, direct or by proxy. So I guess everybody should just turn their weapons in and suck it.

Since we are far more likely to have a civil war in the US then get invaded by a foreign power, I find the ideology of most US militias repugnant, but if the US government wiped out a big chunk of my friends and family and an opposing militia rolled up and offered me safety and a chance for revenge I would probably take them up on it. Does that change me to a targetable enemy combatant? Yes. Does that also make me an extremist ideolog? Absolutely not. The ruling class information gatekeepers would label me as one.

I’ll respond to more points later. This post has already gotten a little long winded.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

You keep asking me to come up with an alternative that pertains specifically to 10/7 but that’s generally a trap that leads to moving the goal posts “OK, but in 1957…….and over in Iran…….”, but I’ll offer an alternative solution or strategy pertaining specifically to 10/7 if you don’t move the goal posts.

Today, right now Isreal stops all the death and destruction in Gaza. Unconditional. Don’t get bogged down in some “temporary ceasefire” propaganda loophole. Then very publicly continue negotiations for the release of the remaining hostages and more importantly a roadmap to peace and more prosperity for the Palestinians that will make this quagmire less likely to continue. Let the world see all negotiation points and reasons specific points are being rejected. While this is ongoing stop the settlement expansions. WTF is wrong with those idiots?

Acknowledge there are justifiable reasons for some people to be pissed off on both sides due to 10/7 and actions taken since then. Form groups of equal Israelis and Palestinians dedicated to peace to go after groups on both sides using violence to thwart the current peace process and bring them to justice or their maker. Do it as surgically as possible and make the operations as public as possible without risking operational safety and success.

There may have been some transparency on these attempts in the past but it was still under ruling class information gatekeepers and before the ravenous internet information junkies. Let us see point by point who is being unreasonable and what valid concerns would be for rejecting points.

I hold Hamas responsible for the 10/7 attacks and continued hostage situation. They should be dismantled, responsible members brought to justice, and any enemy of the peace ideology eradicated as much as possible. You can’t kill an idea. (But apparently you can righteously kill anybody within 100 ft of that idea.)

There are monsters in their ranks, but I don’t buy into the blanket human shield narrative. What are they supposed to do, go stand out in the middle of an open field or hold up in an isolated easily destroyed base by a vastly superior military force? Nobody would do that, including the US. The view seems to be that if one side isn’t capable of having a gentleman’s war then they should just give up and have whatever shit life they are allowed to have. Nobody is capable of having a gentleman’s war against the US, direct or by proxy. So I guess everybody should just turn their weapons in and suck it.

Since we are far more likely to have a civil war in the US then get invaded by a foreign power, I find the ideology of most US militias repugnant, but if the US government wiped out a big chunk of my friends and family and an opposing militia rolled up and offered me safety and a chance for revenge I would probably take them up on it. Does that change me to a targetable enemy combatant? Yes. Does that also make me an extremist ideolog? Absolutely not. The ruling class information gatekeepers would label me as one.

I’ll respond to more points later. This post has already gotten a little long winded.

It's obvious that, while I assume you are well meaning, you have a basic bias against Israel from some notion of its being a colonialist presence in the area. I've addressed this previously and don't want to go into the history yet again at this point. Also, I state that I am against settlement building and I don't like Netanyahu. Expansionist philosophies and religious fanaticism should be rejected on both sides.

For instance, you propose a unilateral cessation of hostiles by Israel but say nothing about Hamas. What do you think they will do? Will they say to themselves that those Israelies are good guys and start singing "Give peace a chance." Of course not. They would use the time to regroup, rearm and possibly move the hostages to a more secure location. They have explicitly stated that they would repeat the atrocities of Oct. 7 every chance they get. How about, since Hamas started this war, THEY stop their hostilities and return the hostages?

Re. the "human shield narrative," If they have no where to fight that doesn't involve the loss of innocents, then, you know, maybe they shouldn't start a war. Is Israel supposed to do nothing to defend its citizens just because Hamas is embedded in civilian areas and firing rockets from rooftops?

And who is most responsible for for the "shit life" you say they have? This is sounding like a broken record at this point but once again let's review the recent past. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, forcibly removing settlers. Gaza received billions in foreign aid over the years but instead of spending it on education, infrastructure and the well-being of Gazans, it was used to build a vast underground system of tunnels and stockpile rockets, launchers and other weapons, all with the single aim of attacking Israel, as they did on Oct. 7. Once again, you want to blame Israel for every misfortune of the Palestinians but much of their suffering was brought on by their own leaders and the refugee crisis, occupation etc. were the direct result of wars they started.

A couple of questions: For about 20 years prior to the Six Day War, Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan controlled the West Bank. Why didn't they establish an independent Palestinian state? Why, even prior to Oct. 7, did Egypt close its border with Gaza and erect a wall that puts Trump's wall to shame? Oh, I forgot, it's all Israel's fault.

I'm frankly getting tired of this discussion, as I had done a few months ago when I decided to take a break from this forum. You seem to view everything through Israel=Bad, Palestinians=Good glasses. You may accuse me of wearing different glasses but let's discuss FACTS and not pie in the sky, unrealistic suggestions or inflammatory accusations of genocide. Look up IHL (International Humanitarian Law) for what is allowed during conflicts when, for instance, the enemy uses civilian structures such as hospitals. Of course a lot of horrible things happen in the fog of war and Israel is not perfect, but there is evidence it has generally abided by this code (by giving warnings, etc.) while Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran of course do not even pretend to do so.

 

[GermanSuplex]

Targeted strikes by the IDF in Tehran.

Military leaders making the rounds don’t sound to alarmed, and it sounds like the IDF complied with American wishes, but this is still an escalation. I guess they know best, but it’s hard to see how this furthers peace or gets any hostages home. Maybe it will, who knows.

The problem is, every move they make is under a guise of suspicion thanks to the leader. I think everyone would feel better about Israel’s decisions if the leader didn’t have a huge conflict of interest in keeping this crisis going.

U.S. calls for de-escalation as Iran claims 'right to self-defense' after Israeli strikes

Latest news and live updates as Israel strikes at Iran in retaliation for an earlier launch of nearly 200 ballistic missiles at Israel.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Citysnaps]

Targeted strikes by the IDF in Tehran.

Military leaders making the rounds don’t sound to alarmed, and it sounds like the IDF complied with American wishes, but this is still an escalation. I guess they know best, but it’s hard to see how this furthers peace or gets any hostages home. Maybe it will, who knows.

The problem is, every move they make is under a guise of suspicion thanks to the leader. I think everyone would feel better about Israel’s decisions if the leader didn’t have a huge conflict of interest in keeping this crisis going.

U.S. calls for de-escalation as Iran claims 'right to self-defense' after Israeli strikes

Latest news and live updates as Israel strikes at Iran in retaliation for an earlier launch of nearly 200 ballistic missiles at Israel.

www.nbcnews.com

Excellent news. I'm looking forward to learning what was targeted in Tehran.

 

[Yoused]

Prime "journalism"

 

[GermanSuplex]

Ceasefire announced by President Biden. I'm sure both US political parties will take credit, but this is an effort on behalf of many, the least of which is Hamas.