Nuvia: don’t hold your breath

dada_dave said:
I'm not sure Qualcomm plans to actually use the regulators to win on these arguments, but just as a tactic to continue to pressure ARM to drop their own case. Basically: "you're smaller than we are and we don't have to win but we'll drown you in counterclaims and regulatory complaints until you give up". I'm not sure if ARM is small enough to buckle under that, but that seems to be the strategy and I guess Qualcomm considers every bit of pressure to be a win.
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Having a lot of experience representing Arm-sized and Qualcomm-sized companies, this isn’t going to do much to pressure Arm. What you’ll see, instead, is Arm raising antitrust counterclaims against Qualcomm around the world.
 
Don't think it's sketchy. We saw the doubt about the 8 Elite improvement over the Snapdragon X Elite (because it was yielding 4.3GHz standard, and, if that was the frequency profile in a phone, it suggested massive improvement in power - which happened). It also matches the previous rumors fwiw.

N3E to N3P gets a 5% iso-power, iso-arch boost in frequency, SME is a 5% gain or so, and after that point they need about 15% more general IPC without blowing power up.

Looking at the cache hierarchy size and room to run there to reduce data movement- they have L2 (12MB) and the SLC (8MB), and also a substantially smaller core. With the rate of improvement from Oryon V1 to V2 and where Oryon IPC is at the moment, I don't find this that unlikely - keep in mind though their phone CPU peak power is still 10-15% higher than Apple on ST, and at 10-15% less performance, so there's that.

In other words If A19 has a 10% gain or so without any power increase, and this is true, Apple will still be on top, albeit by less than ever considering the curve - this I think is pretty much guaranteed [smaller margins than ever, tho this is already true].

Anyway I would be happy to bet on a >|15% gain in performance iso-power in GB6 ST for the 8 Elite 2. 25-30% is pushing it but not insane in context.
 
exoticspice1 said:
IMO, the GPU is more impressive. sucks it will be stuck with phone level games slop
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Yeah and it's Android games which is even worse. Mobile gaming is so underutilized, we barely have anything I'd consider Nintendo-class other than Genshin, even though it's perfectly possible. Apple could create clones of some big Nintendo games for Mac and iPhone with the lift of a thumb IMO

At any rate pending Nvidia's WOA entry games and anti-cheat software will probably get ported more often, and this GPU, pending drivers as well might be pretty good for thin and light laptops (but again suspect Nvidia will do much better, shouldn't be a contest)
 
exoticspice1 said:
not a laptop, but a tablet running windows
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Whether a 2-1 with a desktop OS counts as a laptop or tablet is a philosophical question I don’t intend to resolve. It’s a fanless Windows device with a Snapdragon processor and as far as I (or the article author is aware) the first of its kind when such probably should have been the priority.
 
So how have they been selling? I've seen universities and companies who explicitly said students and employees shouldn't buy these due to software compatibility issues and even its lack of GPU options if it involves things like CAD and Blender. If you're buying a Windows laptop the biggest appeal other than familiarity is the combination of software compatibility, a wide range of options, and pricing. Seems Qualcomm-powered devices lose a lot of that.

However there's definitely a market for "true" 2-in-1 laptops that'll let you use stylus with desktop apps, and I still think Apple will address it at some point.
 
Jimmyjames said:
If true, I’m curious why they would push frequency this much?
www.gsmarena.com

DCS: Snapdragon 8 Elite 2 is being tested with CPU clocks over 5GHz

The current Snapdragon 8 Elite already holds the clock speed crown on mobile. Meanwhile, ARM and MediaTek may be aiming for below 4GHz.
www.gsmarena.com www.gsmarena.com
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I don’t understand the point of this article. It says they are testing at >5, but that the final speed will be determined by yadda yadda yadda.

That’s how device qualification works.

We design a chip to run at X frequency, and when we get samples back, we test at ½ X, X, 2X, etc. For many reasons. For example, if it fails at speeds >X, and we diagnose the circuit path that fails and find that it’s consistent, we can compare that to what our modeling told us and potentially improve our modeling. We also compare power consumption at different frequencies to our predictions, identify potentially unpredicted thermal issues, etc.

All of that provides data that we can feed back into our analysis tools so that next time we can make an even better chip.

It doesn’t mean we have any intention to ship the chips at those frequencies, and the article doesn’t claim they intend to do that either. The point being that every chipmaker does this.
 
Gerard and multiple NUVIA co-founders and employees have left Qualcomm.

So by people's previous logic, Qualcomm is now doomed. Well, actually it might be. For their shittiness, Gerard et al had a modicum of talent, or at least modicum of talent applying outdated apple technology to new Qualcomm chips. They're now forced to rely on their old people, who are, to put it mildly, equally shit but in a different way

This was attempt at rhetorical humor comparing people's reactions to him leaving Apple for Qualcomm vs him leaving Qualcomm to watch paint dry (actually, look this up). Stop taking it personally, people lol.
 
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RockRock8 said:
Gerard and multiple NUVIA co-founders and employees have left Qualcomm.

So by people's previous logic, Qualcomm is now doomed. Well, actually it might be. For their shittiness, Gerard et al had a modicum of talent, or at least modicum of talent applying outdated apple technology to new Qualcomm chips. They're now forced to rely on their old people, who are, to put it mildly, equally shit but in a different way
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Did Manu leave? I worked a long time with him.
 
Cmaier said:
Did Manu leave? I worked a long time with him.
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It says Gerard and John. Also, they fired thousands of employees sometime. So...

Gerard said he'd rather watch paint dry than continue work at Qualcomm, I guess lol. Like actually. He said he was retiring so he could paint his house. If this were Apple, Gurman would say what I just said and characterize it as the failure of the chip team. Well, it looks like Qualcomm is on the brink of failure. Fleeing employees want to watch paint dry rather than spend a second more at Qualcomm.
 
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RockRock8 said:
For their shittiness, Gerard et al had a modicum of talent, or at least modicum of talent applying outdated apple technology to new Qualcomm chips.
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"Shittiness"? Only a "modicum" of talent? Gerard Williams was Apple's lead CPU architect for many generations, up to and including M1. He and the Apple engineers he recruited to Nuvia were deeply involved in creating lots of important "Apple technology". Even if your theory is that post-Apple, these people did nothing but copy/paste Apple tech, are you saying they weren't much good while at Apple? Because if so, how did they manage to do such good work?

Apple unsuccessfully sued Williams for breach of his employment contract, claiming he started recruiting Apple employees to join Nuvia while still employed by Apple. Doesn't seem like something they'd bother with if they felt everyone who left was inconsequential.

As for the question of whether Nuvia actually used Apple technology, that's unlikely. Nuvia absolutely knew Apple was going to be watching closely for any IP violations. Everything would've seen lots of internal scrutiny by IP law experts. IIRC, one leaked reason why there were delays after the Qualcomm acquisition was that, out of an abundance of caution, they redesigned some blocks to more clearly avoid Apple patents.

The results have been reasonably good. Close to Apple when on the same node, and that's honestly a great result for a group that split away without being able to take everything with them (the rest of the people, all the technical infrastructure, all the patents, all the existing designs). It probably won't last because, in the long term, Qualcomm gonna Qualcomm, but Nuvia did some legitimately good engineering work considering all the circumstances.
 
mr_roboto said:
"Shittiness"? Only a "modicum" of talent? Gerard Williams was Apple's lead CPU architect for many generations, up to and including M1. He and the Apple engineers he recruited to Nuvia were deeply involved in creating lots of important "Apple technology". Even if your theory is that post-Apple, these people did nothing but copy/paste Apple tech, are you saying they weren't much good while at Apple? Because if so, how did they manage to do such good work?

Apple unsuccessfully sued Williams for breach of his employment contract, claiming he started recruiting Apple employees to join Nuvia while still employed by Apple. Doesn't seem like something they'd bother with if they felt everyone who left was inconsequential.

As for the question of whether Nuvia actually used Apple technology, that's unlikely. Nuvia absolutely knew Apple was going to be watching closely for any IP violations. Everything would've seen lots of internal scrutiny by IP law experts. IIRC, one leaked reason why there were delays after the Qualcomm acquisition was that, out of an abundance of caution, they redesigned some blocks to more clearly avoid Apple patents.

The results have been reasonably good. Close to Apple when on the same node, and that's honestly a great result for a group that split away without being able to take everything with them (the rest of the people, all the technical infrastructure, all the patents, all the existing designs). It probably won't last because, in the long term, Qualcomm gonna Qualcomm, but Nuvia did some legitimately good engineering work considering all the circumstances.
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Dude please relax a little. If you can't take my tongue-in-cheek attempt at rhetorical humor comparing what people said about Gerard leaving Apple to Qualcomm vs Gerard leaving Qualcomm to retire then maybe just don't reply. I'm fully aware he contributed a lot to Apple's work, but that doesn't mean he was fully responsible nor that what he did after wasn't derivative. Finally, to reiterate my main point, people cried that it would be the end of Apple silicon that him and 2 others left. Clearly it wasn't true at any point, but if I can't even write humor meant for an Apple fan (or whatever you want to call yourself) audience from MacRumors then maybe just don't read the stuff I write, because you clearly take it personally
 
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mr_roboto said:
"Shittiness"? Only a "modicum" of talent? Gerard Williams was Apple's lead CPU architect for many generations, up to and including M1. He and the Apple engineers he recruited to Nuvia were deeply involved in creating lots of important "Apple technology". Even if your theory is that post-Apple, these people did nothing but copy/paste Apple tech, are you saying they weren't much good while at Apple? Because if so, how did they manage to do such good work?
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Thank you, @mr_roboto. While I do believe that Nuvia designs are overrated (I don't think they managed to accomplish anything beyond recreating M1-like architecture outside of Apple), I do not appreciate shitting on talented and accomplished folks just because they made professional choices an anonymous forum poster might disagree with.

@RockRock8: it's great to be enthusiastic abut Apple and technology, but let's not overdo it. We want to keep this place classy and thought-provoking. Most of us are here because these boards offer the opportunity to exchange our thoughts and learn from some very interesting people in a safe and supportive environment. Let's not turn it into just another one sensationalist echo chamber.
 
leman said:
Thank you, @mr_roboto. While I do believe that Nuvia designs are overrated (I don't think they managed to accomplish anything beyond recreating M1-like architecture outside of Apple), I do not appreciate shitting on talented and accomplished folks just because they made professional choices an anonymous forum poster might disagree with.

@RockRock8: it's great to be enthusiastic abut Apple and technology, but let's not overdo it. We want to keep this place classy and thought-provoking. Most of us are here because these boards offer the opportunity to exchange our thoughts and learn from some very interesting people in a safe and supportive environment. Let's not turn it into just another one sensationalist echo chamber.
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Hey, thanks for the comment. I'll say I think that is taking this too seriously still, and this is a small forum. I appreciate you guys have previous group discussions and a tight knit community, but please open yourselves to outside people. While you may come here to show off your knowledge and get affirmation from fellow members you have respect for, others come here to discuss and show an alternate side of discussions about topics. Specifically I only comment about Apple here and that's it, and I was under the impression people actually were fans of Apple. While that doesn't mean everyone agrees or engages with my comments, even the slightest bit of positivity across any of my other posts has been criticized even if it is justified

@Cmaier has repeatedly said to both of you and others that if you really don't like a member, just ignore them. I've demonstrated clear analytical ability, especially in threads like RDMA over Thunderbolt, which to be frank was -- aside from my justified enthusiasm -- about the only actual substantive analysis and fact based comments aside from the announcements themselves and some short reposts of speeds.

I was only ever planning to stay for a few comments, even though I've long read this website and appreciated yours and others comments and analysis. But you guys are pretty shut off to new people, and I encourage you to open yourselves to new stuff. I never wanted to cause specific drama with anyone here, as I've I said I actually enjoy reading stuff you and others write, but let's be clear about something. There is a certain tribalism to this forum that shuns outsiders and outside thinkjng

For whatever reason, you, @mr_roboto and others have this really anti-"AI" attitude, and you know what, the funny thing is that I don't like "AI" either! Pay close attention to what I say and how I write it.
But analysis of stuff like RDMA over Thunderbolt, what it means both for the user and technologically, and for future stuff like Siri warrants serious if not enthusiastic discussion.

It's okay to be positive about stuff. It's okay to disagree with a feature like Chatbots while recognizing the technological breakthrough stuff like RDMA over Thunderbolt is. The fact is, for as much you all do know about stuff, there's a lot of stuff you just don't know. Like how USB 4 -- or Thunderbolt -- is actually used to connect Ensembles of PCC servers to fulfill requests. Yet you clearly, for lack of a better phrase, subtweeted me trying to criticize me like I'm inept or something in that thread.

And while you may have good intentions, the follow through isn't in my experience. This tribalistic mentality combined with the need to boost self esteem through discussion on technology to get recognition on how intelligent you may be in one area of technology really just lends itself to non-productive behavior. Both of you and multiple others (@Jimmyjames @Altaic @exoticspice1 @NotEntirelyConfused ) have been repeatedly warned by @Cmaier for, being blunt, kind of asshole-ish. There's a reason for that. You guys are kind of being asshole-ish.

I was already planning to leave around the time I started commenting because I only ever made this account to comment on the nonsense Gurman wrote. I was literally not going to comment anymore past today and leave in a week or so, just sort of letting the conversations naturally fade so I don't cause drama or bring attention to it

But the fact is no one is saying this to you guys. You guys need to stop the tribal stuff. And you may not even recognize you're doing it, but it's happening, and I don't appreciate it. New members don't appreciate it. The majority of people here are coming from MacRumors, which as I've understood it is at least interested if not outright fans of Apple. I like writing, and while sometimes it may fall flat, I at least always try to be clever and write stuff no one else has. I try anyways

I appreciate the feedback you gave, so I hope you and others appreciate this feedback in return. I'm serious. Had I not already been planning to leave from the moment I made this account I honestly would have felt so discouraged by you guys. What you have in tech knowledge you lack in discussion ability, outside of your in group. And as I've said to @Cmaier, this forum can be closed to outsiders. That's okay, but if you're going to operate anyways as a text message group chat, you may as well literally make a text message group chat

I come here not to convince but to find others that I perceived, perhaps incorrectly, as not hostile to being a fan of Apple. I try to be clever with English and rhetoric. I make criticism of tech sites and bloggers I am losing faith in, and I wrote what I wish or would have seen places like AppleInsider write if they behaved without negative clickbait. I don't think I need to state my purpose every time I comment. Either what I write is informative or a home run for you, or it isn't. You either walk away knowing a different perspective, or you don't

If the biggest problem someone has, as I've had nearly 7 different people critique my comments for specifically aside from this one, is that I'm too positive about stuff I find cool, then that reflects more on others than it does me.

I hope this message finds you well, and I hope you take what I say into consideration. This isn't a discussion on my end. This will be my last comment, and I really hope you take the criticism for other new members who may join
 
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