Racism in Europe, refugees, and topics tangentially related to the war in Ukraine

JayMysteri0 said:
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1499582224185839637/
:cautious:
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This is a totally unfair take. Europe welcomed millions of refugees from Africa and the ME. Millions. And it did so for decades.

Right now there’s a war that started just a week ago, right at the gates of the welcoming countries (countries that share a lot with the refugees), a war in which the EU has direct involvement, hence the hurry to welcome about 150K refugees.

In 2021 alone, there were over 114,000 sea arrivals in Italy, Greece, Spain, Cyprus and Malta. By the end of 2016, nearly 5.2 million refugees and migrants reached European shores, undertaking treacherous journeys from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries torn apart by war and persecution.
 
yaxomoxay said:
This is a totally unfair take. Europe welcomed millions of refugees from Africa and the ME. Millions. And it did so for decades.

Right now there’s a war that started just a week ago, right at the gates of the welcoming countries (countries that share a lot with the refugees), a war in which the EU has direct involvement, hence the hurry to welcome about 150K refugees.

In 2021 alone, there were over 114,000 sea arrivals in Italy, Greece, Spain, Cyprus and Malta. By the end of 2016, nearly 5.2 million refugees and migrants reached European shores, undertaking treacherous journeys from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries torn apart by war and persecution.
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I grew up with my grandma telling me, I have to look impeccable, otherwise people will think I'm a refugee. My friend, who has the same heritage and complexion as me moved back to eastern europe after living in the USA for 20 years, and his kids (who speak the language perfectly) were called migrants regularly.

So while the comparison isn't necessarily fair, I do think his take home message is absolutely spot on: "Refugee isn't synonymous with brown person".
 
I think it's a fair take, especially in re. to specific countries like Poland, which outright refused to take in refugees from the Middle East and Africa. No one's saying refugees weren't accepted from the ME and Africa, but the attitude was very different and the acceptance from some countries was reluctant or non-existent. It's also fair to call out the "these are actual people" commentary from politicians and some in the news media (and not just talking right-wing media either).
 
P_X said:
I grew up with my grandma telling me, I have to look impeccable, otherwise people will think I'm a refugee.
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Well that has probably more to do with clothing than skin. My grandma said “homeless”.

My friend, who has the same heritage and complexion as me moved back to eastern europe after living in the USA for 20 years, and his kids (who speak the language perfectly) were called migrants regularly.
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Well they are. Exactly as my kids when they go to Italy. Or exactly as me here in the US.
P_X said:
So while the comparison isn't necessarily fair, I do think his take home message is absolutely spot on: "Refugee isn't synonymous with brown person".
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And while I don’t deny that some people reason like that, that’s obviously not what I am referring to.
 
TBL said:
I think it's a fair take, especially in re. to specific countries like Poland, which outright refused to take in refugees from the Middle East and Africa. No one's saying refugees weren't accepted from the ME and Africa, but the attitude was very different and the acceptance from some countries was reluctant or non-existent. It's also fair to point out the "these are actual people" commentary from politicians and some in the news media (and not just talking right-wing media either).
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Typical US-centrism according to which all countries reason in line with US-Perceived notions.

Also, this is exactly why the left will take a pounding in November: it’s never enough. We are at the brink of a major crisis, with the threat of nuclear war, and immediately an American (ok he was born in SA) leftist millionaire has to tell people on the other side of the world that after welcoming million of immigrants, they are racist because in a moment of emergency they welcome other immigrants.
 
Yes.

How about racism is always bad and deserves to be called out when it happens? That isn't "US-centric". Calling it so is a deflection.
 
TBL said:
Yes.
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Ahahahhahaahahah. Ok. I am a war hawk that doesn’t want war. I guess I am a special case. Jeez. Not sure what triggered you here.
TBL said:
How about racism is always bad and deserves to be called out when it happens?
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Yes, racism is always bad. But that doesn’t meant that racism is always the reason for something.

TBL said:
That isn't "US-centric". Calling it so is a deflection.
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No, it is. It’s a fucking US-centric way to reason, it’s using US-centric parameters. There are millions of refugees in Europe + Turkey. Millions. But no, we don’t like the difference between two totally unrelated events and types (stream that goes on for decades vs immediate threat) so… racism!
 
It's fucking racist when you clarify that these refugees aren't like previous refugees, that these are normal, intelligent, Europeans. It's obvious what the reason is when you categorically refuse to admit Muslim non-white refugees but welcome Ukrainians with open arms.

Yes, sometimes it is fucking racism. Europeans can be racist too.

Good to know any European racism can always be dismissed with "that's US-centric!". What a convenient bullshit argument.
 
TBL said:
It's fucking racist when you clarify that these refugees aren't like previous refugees, that these are normal, intelligent, Europeans.
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I never clarified such thing. Never. Where did I say that they are normal, intelligent refugees? I simply said that they are at driving distance (a fact), in a country which went at war a week ago (a fact), in a country in which the war has direct European intervention (a fact), in a country that shares a lot with the neighboring countries (a fact). That’s it. Your addition of judgmental adjectives is just your projection that tells a lot about the bias you add when you read things.

And by the way you were the one that was making fun of me when I said that this (a full fledged invasion) would’ve been the fucking result.
TBL said:
It's obvious what the reason is when you categorically refuse to admit Muslim non-white refugees but welcome Ukrainians with open arms.
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Those that are “categorically refused” (according to your reply) have been welcomed in the millions for decades. They two situations are barely comparable.

TBL said:
Yes, sometimes it is fucking racism. Europeans can be racist too.
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Don’t disagree with this.
 
I didn't say you said that. It's in the video. Bulgarian politician said it, and I've heard it from other commentators as well (including someone on CBS News saying essentially the same thing, maybe in less blatantly racist terms).
 
TBL said:
I didn't say you said that. It's in the video. Bulgarian politician said it, and I've heard it from other commentators as well (including someone on CBS News saying essentially the same thing, maybe in less blatantly racist terms).
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Then why did you say “you”?
 
yaxomoxay said:
Well that has probably more to do with clothing than skin. My grandma said “homeless”.
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Well, this is exactly what I'm talking about. For some reason you feel entitled to explain to me what my grandma was probably referring to because your ***random experience here***.

yaxomoxay said:
Well they are. Exactly as my kids when they go to Italy. Or exactly as me here in the US.
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Let me guess, your are white, your kids are white, the kids speak perfect italian, yet they are still called migrant regularly when they go to Italy to stay? You are also in full understanding of the specific cultural and linguistic connotation of the expression in my context, because your ***random characteristic here***.

yaxomoxay said:
And while I don’t deny that some people reason like that, that’s obviously not what I am referring to.
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Your above 2 sentences speak way louder than anything else you've said.
 
yaxomoxay said:
This is a totally unfair take. Europe welcomed millions of refugees from Africa and the ME. Millions. And it did so for decades.

Right now there’s a war that started just a week ago, right at the gates of the welcoming countries (countries that share a lot with the refugees), a war in which the EU has direct involvement, hence the hurry to welcome about 150K refugees.

In 2021 alone, there were over 114,000 sea arrivals in Italy, Greece, Spain, Cyprus and Malta. By the end of 2016, nearly 5.2 million refugees and migrants reached European shores, undertaking treacherous journeys from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries torn apart by war and persecution.
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It may seem an unfair take to you, but it isn't a solitary one.

It's just based on current observations. Resources that didn't exist for years for other refugees, suddenly exist now with near instant entrance, benefits, and waived work requirements in some places. Why? According to the words of some to paraphrase, these aren't the usual refugees? It's an observation based on the words of some officials and even some media in how they've clumsily covered this issue. Let alone what's supposedly happened in Ukraine itself with the issues African & Indian people faced trying to leave. The difference in what makes an acceptable and not acceptable refugee seems a little obvious to some.

Mind you, before we begin the inevitable divergence / deflection run to trample into the weeds, this is not about 'levels of victimhood'. It's just the perceived difference in how this crisis is being handled over past ones and the actions of some countries now. Who's to say if putin carries on with is imagined 'depopulation' strategy that future fleeing Ukrainian refugees will suddenly find barbed wire blocking their way? It's just that right now, it doesn't look that way to many.
 
P_X said:
Well, this is exactly what I'm talking about. For some reason you feel entitled to explain to me what my grandma was probably referring to because your ***random experience here***.
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Hence the “probably”.

P_X said:
Let me guess, your are white, your kids are white, the kids speak perfect italian, yet they are still called migrant regularly when they go to Italy to stay? You are also in full understanding of the specific cultural and linguistic connotation of the expression in my context, because your ***random characteristic here***.
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Kids are white. Their Italian is not really great and they both have an accent (funny thing, I have a strong foreign accent in English, they have an foreign accent in Italian. The only one without an accent in either language in my household is my wife… and she makes fun of us).

Yes, my kids are considered “American” by virtually all their friends and acquaintances there. And formally, if they were to move there they would be considered immigrants. I am considered an immigrant in the US.

Your above 2 sentences speak way louder than anything else you've said.
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What a silly point. You write the interpretation of a couple of personal facts on a public forum and you expect that other people just read, don’t say anything, and don’t share comparable/similar (but certainly not identical) situations, just to become judgmental once one replies?
 
yaxomoxay said:
What a silly point. You write the interpretation of a couple of personal facts on a public forum and you expect that other people just read, don’t say anything, and don’t share comparable/similar (but certainly not identical) situations, just to become judgmental once one replies?
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The points are:
1) You completely lack the perspective and experience
2) You're evidently unaware of your unawareness.

Cheers
 

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