Racism in Europe, refugees, and topics tangentially related to the war in Ukraine

[yaxomoxay]

Tying this to cancel culture, it’s 10% somebody or people on the left making a stink about something and 90% right-wing media droning on about that ad nauseam. Add to that people on the right are fairly aligned on most issues while people on the left are a lot more diverse and fractured in their values and priorities. But since most of the right is on the same page they assume the left must also be on their same page. Sooooo…somebody like Trevor Noah points something out, the right has to counter that times 1,000 which gives the impression that the entire left is an army of Trevor Noahs.

To compound that, you even have left or center left public figures, including Obama, buying into the right-wing propaganda and coming out and saying “We really need to dial back the cancel culture, folks.” I’m sure they are out there, but I don’t know any militant cancel culture lefties and I’m pretty much engulfed in lefties. But the way the media portrays it, you’d think you wouldn’t be able to step off your porch without getting accosted by one.

I have no rebuttal, or need for one, for the above. However like it or not, Mr Noah is seen and paraded as a leftist voice. He has lots of weight in the cultural context. (I have no idea what right wing outlets are saying about his video. I saw it here for the first time.)

But having said all that, it’s been a successful propaganda campaign by the right for which Democrats will lose voters.

We’ll see in November. I don’t think that “democrats will lose voters” as in people that are D. I think that many if not most of the “undecided/independent/fiddly” voters will vote R candidates, moving the needle the other way. I guess we’ll see if I am wrong.

 

[JayMysteri0]

Tying this to cancel culture, it’s 10% somebody or people on the left making a stink about something and 90% right-wing media droning on about that ad nauseam. Add to that people on the right are fairly aligned on most issues while people on the left are a lot more diverse and fractured in their values and priorities. But since most of the right is on the same page they assume the left must also be on their same page. Sooooo…somebody like Trevor Noah points something out, the right has to counter that times 1,000 which gives the impression that the entire left is an army of Trevor Noahs.

To compound that, you even have left or center left public figures, including Obama, buying into the right-wing propaganda and coming out and saying “We really need to dial back the cancel culture, folks.” I’m sure they are out there, but I don’t know any militant cancel culture lefties and I’m pretty much engulfed in lefties. But the way the media portrays it, you’d think you wouldn’t be able to step off your porch without getting accosted by one.

But having said all that, it’s been a successful propaganda campaign by the right for which Democrats will lose voters. Somehow they’ll ignore the attempted rampant white washing of history because they believe there’s mass firings of people with impure thoughts.

See, I ( personally ) don't see it as tying into anything, let alone cancel culture.

It's just an issue that affects a specific group, and as Noah points out if you aren't in that group you probably don't see it.

That's what will make it 10% or even niche. It's just not an issue that affects a large enough people amongst a sea of more overwhelming issues involving Ukraine & Putin. It's not going to get much traction when the narratives are all about showing much love for Ukraine's president, and a country being overrun by a delusional character who seemingly had his own soldiers lied to about where they were going. When you have the suffering of what is going on with Ukrainian citizens who did nothing, inspiring support, you certainly don't want video of their own soldiers making PoC get out of line to board trains leaving the country. The images of those people left as trains leave, is not something anyone wants to dwell on. That isn't propaganda. Just a shitty reality for some.

The only thing ( to me ) possibly "cancelled" is having a competing negative narrative going on when so many in Ukraine do need support.

This isn't about dems or leftists or politics or voting or whatever. Unless one wants it to be. At the end of the day it's unfortunately a thing that is really happening, that seems to keep happening to specific groups over & over.

Not everything is political. Some times things are just actually plain shitty, and they keep happening all over.

 

[Deleted member 215]

The problem is that many people still think racism is only ever explicit and flagrant; it's Nazis and lynchings and scientific racism. Those things are all obviously racist and few wouldn't condemn them. It's harder for some to see how the media claiming to be shocked by the violence in Ukraine because it's "civilized and not third world" comes off as racist. No, not every difference between Europe's handling of Ukrainian refugees vs. Syrian refugees can be ascribed to racism or xenophobia (for one, it's simply too early for a full analysis of it). But some of it certainly can be, especially when some Western politicians and media figures are outright stating that Ukrainian refugees should be accepted because they're not like other refugees, they're civilized and intelligent and European. If that's not chauvinism, I don't know what is. I get it: there's a narrative here that we don't want to stray from. We don't want to think about the "good guys" doing bad things. We don't want to take focus off Putin by pointing out the less-than-pefect actions of his opponents. But history will remember it all and maybe pointing it out while it's happening is an opportunity to do better.

 

[SuperMatt]

No. I am not saying the “same way”. I myself said that there are some differences (including but not limited to timeline). But that doesn’t automatically mean racism as the root of the differences.

Can racism play a role? Undeniable. Is it a role here? Possibly. However I don’t like the automatic argument that since X was done in a certain way than Y has to be equal or it’s racism. No, as in my example below, there are differences that might cause different reactions. The context of Ukraine and the war is much different than the context of Syria. Much much different. (Plus I believe the EU has information to identify Ukrainians; I might be wrong on this but my understanding is that most of the info, at least on criminals, was shared).

Please point out the different context of the Syrian war in a way that explains the different response, other than national origin, which I tossed out as the obvious reason.

The analogy you made makes no sense to me. I don’t believe Europeans are being asked to let refugees sleep on their couch or in their guest bedroom. So actually explain it instead.

Also, do you REALLY believe what you wrote that they are welcoming Ukrainian refugees more than Syrian ones because they had better information on who was or wasn’t a “criminal”? Again, that goes back to the “extreme vetting” nonsense in America in which some assume everybody from the Middle East is a terrorist unless they can prove otherwise.

 

[Yoused]

On the topic of racism as it actually pertains to the topic, it appears that we were all mistaken, this war is

Tucker Carlson admitted he was wrong to praise Russia before its invasion of Ukraine, but turned it into an attack on Kamala Harris

The Fox News host spent Thursday explaining his show's fawning coverage of Russia before it invaded Ukraine. It was, he said, Kamala Harris' fault.

www.businessinsider.com

all Kamala Harris' fault.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Please point out the different context of the Syrian war in a way that explains the different response, other than national origin, which I tossed out as the obvious reason.

Like it or not, national origin is indeed important. The context of the Syrian war comes from an intra-territorial struggle among factions, tribes and, sadly, terrorist forces. I am not sure that Isis ever reached 40 to 50% of the territory in Ukraine as it did in Syria. Just that makes it substantially different than the war in Ukraine, and it makes the requirements from entry much different. Let alone that on the “other side” there was an anti-EU and anti-US leader which was literally saved by none other than Putin. So basically what we had was an anti Western group (Isis) fighting an anti Western group (Assad) fighting a separatist group (Kurds) all while handling incursions by a not really pro-Western group (Turkey) in a multi-sided war that went on for years.

Like it or not, our ties with Ukraine are much stronger than our ties with Syria.

The analogy you made makes no sense to me. I don’t believe Europeans are being asked to let refugees sleep on their couch or in their guest bedroom. So actually explain it instead.

I did. If you don’t understand it, it’s not my fault.

Also, do you REALLY believe what you wrote that they are welcoming Ukrainian refugees more than Syrian ones because they had better information on who was or wasn’t a “criminal”? Again, that goes back to the “extreme vetting” nonsense in America in which some assume everybody from the Middle East is a terrorist unless they can prove otherwise.

The bolded part is what you assume, not me. I never said it, I never implied it. No, not everybody in the ME is a terrorist. Not even close. However, terrorism and terrorist groups with international reach are much prominent in the ME than in Ukraine. It’s a fact, and you can’t dispute it. Much more groups and many more members , not just a little.

Information sharing is important, and it’s weird that you see as “extreme vetting” (which is not something that I am advocating). It’s not because “everybody is a criminal” but to prevent as many criminals as possible to enter, mixed with the plethora of good people.

 

[Arkitect]

Can someone please open a new thread for the discussion of Refugees?

 

[User.45]

Not everything is political. Some times things are just actually plain shitty, and they keep happening all over.

Exactly. The lines between chauvinism, nationalism and patriotism can be blurry. Humans are complex. Issues like these are hard to reconcile in the context of probably all of us really rooting for Ukraine, but I'm glad they are talked about. I felt that I am uniquely positioned to make a few comments about this topic that most likely nobody else on this forum experienced in the region. If it's fair to call out people for "US exceptionalism" then it's also fair to point out that Americans definitely aren't exceptional about having blindspots.

 

[SuperMatt]

If you don’t understand it, it’s not my fault.

You have an interesting point of view when it comes to effective communication.

 

[yaxomoxay]

You have an interesting point of view when it comes to communication.

My wife would agree with this.

 

[Deleted member 215]

Exactly. The lines between chauvinism, nationalism and patriotism can be blurry. Humans are complex. Issues like these are hard to reconcile in the context of probably all of us really rooting for Ukraine, but I'm glad they are talked about. I felt that I am uniquely positioned to make a few comments about this topic that most likely nobody else on this forum experienced in the region. If it's fair to call out people for "US exceptionalism" then it's also fair to point out that Americans definitely aren't exceptional about having blindspots.

Agreed 100%. Especially that last point.

It's my hope that our unity on Ukraine doesn't mean other related issues (like the refugee situation) can't be discussed.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

See, I ( personally ) don't see it as tying into anything, let alone cancel culture.

It's just an issue that affects a specific group, and as Noah points out if you aren't in that group you probably don't see it.

That's what will make it 10% or even niche. It's just not an issue that affects a large enough people amongst a sea of more overwhelming issues involving Ukraine & Putin. It's not going to get much traction when the narratives are all about showing much love for Ukraine's president, and a country being overrun by a delusional character who seemingly had his own soldiers lied to about where they were going. When you have the suffering of what is going on with Ukrainian citizens who did nothing, inspiring support, you certainly don't want video of their own soldiers making PoC get out of line to board trains leaving the country. The images of those people left as trains leave, is not something anyone wants to dwell on. That isn't propaganda. Just a shitty reality for some.

The only thing ( to me ) possibly "cancelled" is having a competing negative narrative going on when so many in Ukraine do need support.

This isn't about dems or leftists or politics or voting or whatever. Unless one wants it to be. At the end of the day it's unfortunately a thing that is really happening, that seems to keep happening to specific groups over & over.

Not everything is political. Some times things are just actually plain shitty, and they keep happening all over.

All I'm saying is there will be people in the "all lives matter" crowd who will see this as the left even using this crisis and tragedy to complain about racism.

 

[yaxomoxay]

All I'm saying is there will be people in the "all lives matter" crowd who will see this as the left even using this crisis and tragedy to complain about racism.

For the record, I do believe that the concern expressed is real. I just disagree with the characterization and the evaluation of this specific context.

(And I’ll stop here on the subject)

 

[JayMysteri0]

All I'm saying is there will be people in the "all lives matter" crowd who will see this as the left even using this crisis and tragedy to complain about racism.

Those people can keep stepping on rakes & showing themselves. They will use anything & everything every chance they get, and won't step until they've sucked all of the air out that talking point & move on to another. They're just that droning white noise that other parts of their own chorus hear, while others they don't care about suffer. They aren't going away and matter mostly to anyone who will listen & give them importance.

They certainly don't mean a whit to those who actually do suffer.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I'm entirely in agreement with @yaxomoxay on this subject.

Just because race is the most toxic source of identity and division - political, social, cultural (not to mention legal, and economic) in the US (and was one of the major causes of your Civil War) - and one that continues to tear your country and culture apart - does not mean that this exact experience is replicated in Europe. Because, it isn't.

Yes, race - and racism - exists, but not everything is viewed through the toxic prism, or filter, or lens, of race, as it is in the US. In fact, in Europe, I would argue that social class is a more salient, and enduring division, than race, although the two intersect and overlap at times.

Please stop viewing everything through an American prism, and allowing this American exceptionalism to shape your understanding of what is happening in Europe.

And, this is a subject on which I would like to hear from some female people of colour, for the female perspective may be a bit more nuanced.

And yes, Ukraine is in Europe, a sophisticated and cultured society; Kyiv is a beautiful city - I've worked there.

Of course you identify more closely with cultures that resemble yours, especially if yours is an advanced culture, and is a sort of standard which much of the world aspires to.

And, of course you can identify with "people like you" especially if they are from a country that wasn't war ravaged just over a week ago.

I have been told, to my face (via interpreters and translators) - in refugee camps, in Georgia, which I visited, in an official capacity, when working with the EU, and in a refugee camp, in Bosnia, shortly after the war, in 1997 when I was running (my mandate meant I ran the elections working with the locals, not merely observed them) elections - we were ensuring that people living there were registered to vote and were able to vote - I was told: "I used to be just like you; once I had a home, a good job, a nice car, a foreign holiday every year, " and that is the point: It is precisely because they "used to be just like me" that one can relate to them in a more powerful way.

And that does bring home forcefully - in a way that wars in countries that are dysfunctional, and repressive (and have always been) do not, because you cannot conceive of ever living there, or wanting to live there, or ever wanting any part of their political culture even if you do explore elements of their actual culture - that progress is not inevitable, and nor is it linear, that worlds and cultures can collapse and be destroyed just as easily as they were created. You can identify with, relate to, someone fleeing a war in Europe - precisely because it is a world and culture with which you are familiar - a lot more easily than someone flleeing a war in a country that was always violent, unstable, and repressive.

Our world - in Europe - is normally so safe, and secure, that we don't do war. The war in Yugosavia was a profound shock to me - I did not expect to see a war in Europe in my life time. And the war in Ukraine is an even greater shock.

In any case, I come from a country where the police aren't armed, let alone the population, and the population do not view the right to bear arms as a basic right anywhere in Europe; unlike the US, our societies aren't fundamentally violent, which makes war - when it happens - all the more profoundly shocking.

 

[Deleted member 215]

I'm entirely in agreement with @yaxomoxay on this subject.

Just because race is the most toxic source of identity and division - political, social, cultural (not to mention legal, and economic) in the US (and was one of the major causes of your Civil War) - and one that continues to tear your country and culture apart - does not mean that this exact experience is replicated in Europe. Because, it isn't.

Yes, race - and racism - exists, but not everything is viewed through the toxic prism, or filter, or lens, of race, as it is in the US. In fact, in Europe, I would argue that social class is a more salient, and enduring division, than race, although the two intersect and overlap at times.

Please stop viewing everything through an American prism, and allowing this American exceptionalism to shape your understanding of what is happening in Europe.

And, this is a subject on which I would like to hear from some female people of colour, for the female perspective may be a bit more nuanced.

And yes, Ukraine is in Europe, a sophisticated and cultured society; Kyiv is a beautiful city - I've worked there.

Of course you identify more closely with cultures that resemble yours, especially if yours is an advanced culture, and is a sort of standard which much of the world aspires to.

And, of course you can identify with "people like you" especially if they are from a country that wasn't war ravaged just over a week ago.

I have been told, to my face (via interpreters and translators) - in refugee camps, in Georgia, which I visited, in an official capacity, when working with the EU, and in a refugee camp, in Bosnia, shortly after the war, in 1997 when I was running (my mandate meant I ran the elections working with the locals, not merely observed them) elections - we were ensuring that people living there were registered to vote and were able to vote - I was told: "I used to be just like you; once I had a home, a good job, a nice car, a foreign holiday every year, " and that is the point: It is precisely because they "used to be just like me" that one can relate to them in a more powerful way.

And that does bring home forcefully - in a way that wars in countries that are dysfunctional, and repressive (and have always been) do not, because you cannot conceive of ever living there, or wanting to live there, or ever wanting any part of their political culture even if you do explore elements of their actual culture - that progress is not inevitable, and nor is it linear, that worlds and cultures can collapse and be destroyed just as easily as they were created. You can identify with, relate to, someone fleeing a war in Europe - precisely because it is a world and culture with which you are familiar - a lot more easily than someone flleeing a war in a country that was always violent, unstable, and repressive.

Our world - in Europe - is normally so safe, and secure, that we don't do war. The war in Yugosavia was a profound shock to me - I did not expect to see a war in Europe in my life time. And the war in Ukraine is an even greater shock.

In any case, I come from a country where the police aren't armed, let alone the population, and the population do not view the right to bear arms as a basic right anywhere in Europe; unlike the US, our societies aren't fundamentally violent, which makes war - when it happens - all the more profoundly shocking.

So what is your defense of African students in Ukraine having their evacuation thwarted?

This just sounds like apologetics for racism and a major deflection. Characterizing racism as uniquely American problem is frankly, BS. Racism originated in Europe. Racism is different in the U.S. and Europe, of course it is. But that doesn't mean it's not extant in Europe and not a factor in how these refugees are being viewed vs. refugees from Africa/ME.

That one type of refugee is easier to relate to is obvious. Humans more easily relate to people who are like them culturally, religiously, politically. That they should be treated differently because of that fact is not.

I would argue that it's even chauvinistic to characterize places like the Middle East as always having been unstable and repressive. Europe certainly has its history of instability and repression. Not to mention the West (oh, here I go again) has had a role in destabilizing these places.

 

[yaxomoxay]

So what is your defense of African students in Ukraine having their evacuation thwarted?

Those were thwarted by Ukrainian officials which gave precedence to their own, it appears sometimes using violent and certainly immoral means. It has nothing to do with what Mr Noah presented, which is the debate at hand.

 

[Deleted member 215]

Those were thwarted by Ukrainian officials which gave precedence to their own, it appears sometimes using violent and certainly immoral means. It has nothing to do with what Mr Noah presented, which is the debate at hand.

Fine. Then how is a declaration that Ukrainian refugees should be viewed with more sympathy than Syrian refugees because they're "like us" not an example of chauvinism, racism, and/or xenophobia?

 

[Deleted member 215]

First you claim that this perspective on racism is uniquely American, then you cite the universal example of people being able to relate more to people who are like them. That applies to the U.S. too, you know. That is part of why people entering our country are viewed differently depending on whether they speak the language, come from poverty, etc. It does not mean racism is not a factor.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Fine. Then how is a declaration that Ukrainian refugees should be viewed with more sympathy than Syrian refugees because they're "like us" not an example of chauvinism, racism, and/or xenophobia?

You’re seriously reaching here. Some bureaucrat in a moment of chaos and war mistreated some people based on nationality. (Which is BAD).

I am also not sure that those people could enter the EU as refugees- at most evacuees - due to the fact that they have a home country which is accessible. I might be wrong here.