Racism in Europe, refugees, and topics tangentially related to the war in Ukraine

[Zoidberg]

So what is your defense of African students in Ukraine having their evacuation thwarted?

This just sounds like apologetics for racism and a major deflection. Characterizing racism as uniquely American problem is frankly, BS. Racism originated in Europe. Racism is different in the U.S. and Europe, of course it is. But that doesn't mean it's not extant in Europe and not a factor in how these refugees are being viewed vs. refugees from Africa/ME.

That one type of refugee is easier to relate to is obvious. Humans more easily relate to people who are like them culturally, religiously, politically. That they should be treated differently because of that fact is not.

Speaking for myself only, I don't see it as racism. I see it as an operation that had to be drafted in a matter of hours or days, catering to the vast majority of the victims. You can't blame the guy at the border for not knowing what to do with someone who's not Ukrainian, and it has also happened to Brits (white Brits, to be clear) who lived in Ukraine and have been stopped at the border with Romania, but I don't see that widely reported. Yes, it should be looked into ASAP, but they are dealing with hundreds of thousands of people (soon millions) and in terms of urgency, as long as they are in the West of the country, next to the border, and taken care of, they are safe for the time being, which is all that matters right now.

Ukrainians have lost not just their homes, but their country, non-Ukrainians have not, they were just caught in a bad place, but they still have a place to go to.

 

[SuperMatt]

I'm entirely in agreement with @yaxomoxay on this subject.

Just because race is the most toxic source of identity and division - political, social, cultural (not to mention legal, and economic) in the US (and was one of the major causes of your Civil War) - and one that continues to tear your country and culture apart - does not mean that this exact experience is replicated in Europe. Because, it isn't.

Yes, race - and racism - exists, but not everything is viewed through the toxic prism, or filter, or lens, of race, as it is in the US. In fact, in Europe, I would argue that social class is a more salient, and enduring division, than race, although the two intersect and overlap at times.

Please stop viewing everything through an American prism, and allowing this American exceptionalism to shape your understanding of what is happening in Europe.

And, this is a subject on which I would like to hear from some female people of colour, for the female perspective may be a bit more nuanced.

And yes, Ukraine is in Europe, a sophisticated and cultured society; Kyiv is a beautiful city - I've worked there.

Of course you identify more closely with cultures that resemble yours, especially if yours is an advanced culture, and is a sort of standard which much of the world aspires to.

And, of course you can identify with "people like you" especially if they are from a country that wasn't war ravaged just over a week ago.

I have been told, to my face (via interpreters and translators) - in refugee camps, in Georgia, which I visited, in an official capacity, when working with the EU, and in a refugee camp, in Bosnia, shortly after the war, in 1997 when I was running (my mandate meant I ran the elections working with the locals, not merely observed them) elections - we were ensuring that people living there were registered to vote and were able to vote - I was told: "I used to be just like you; once I had a home, a good job, a nice car, a foreign holiday every year, " and that is the point: It is precisely because they "used to be just like me" that one can relate to them in a more powerful way.

And that does bring home forcefully - in a way that wars in countries that are dysfunctional, and repressive (and have always been) do not, because you cannot conceive of ever living there, or wanting to live there, or ever wanting any part of their political culture even if you do explore elements of their actual culture - that progress is not inevitable, and nor is it linear, that worlds and cultures can collapse and be destroyed just as easily as they were created. You can identify with, relate to, someone fleeing a war in Europe - precisely because it is a world and culture with which you are familiar - a lot more easily than someone flleeing a war in a country that was always violent, unstable, and repressive.

Our world - in Europe - is normally so safe, and secure, that we don't do war. The war in Yugosavia was a profound shock to me - I did not expect to see a war in Europe in my life time. And the war in Ukraine is an even greater shock.

In any case, I come from a country where the police aren't armed, let alone the population, and the population do not view the right to bear arms as a basic right anywhere in Europe; unlike the US, our societies aren't fundamentally violent, which makes war - when it happens - all the more profoundly shocking.

I’ve bolded the sections that should make one stop and think about their perspective.

Try reading about the history of Syria for example. It was not ALWAYS “violent” or “unstable” or “repressive.”

The bolded statements come across as European exceptionalism. I find it interesting that those who are accused of American exceptionalism constantly point out the flaws in our own society, right on this forum! We seldom criticize Europe, so no need to get defensive when we do.. and even the criticism being discussed was simply a comparison to America’s own racism. Not in any way saying “we are better than Europe."

It is understandable that Ukrainian refugees are more welcome in Europe than Syrian refugees. That doesn’t make it right though. And classifying Europe as “sophisticated” and other countries as “always violent...” is the kind of attitude that leads to African or Middle Eastern refugees being treated like potential criminals.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Racism originated in Europe.

This is incorrect, although it would depend on some gray areas of the definition. Racism can be found in early India, China, and what is now Japan, for example. Other regions, including Africa have a long history of racism or racist tendencies. The Bible of course is full of those (which is probably the biggest “rip” and societal change of Christianity from the Old Testament). Romans were pretty racist of course, and so the Greeks, although the Romans were more interested in slaves and resources than actual racism. Tribalism of course also enters the equation.

 

[Deleted member 215]

I’ve bolded the sections that should make one stop and think about their perspective.

Try reading about the history of Syria for example. It was not ALWAYS “violent” or “unstable” or “repressive.”

The bolded statements come across as European exceptionalism. I find it interesting that those who are accused of American exceptionalism constantly point out the flaws in our own society, right on this forum! We seldom criticize Europe, so no need to get defensive when we do.. and even the criticism being discussed was simply a comparison to America’s own racism. Not in any way saying “we are better than Europe."

Is it understandable that Ukrainian refugees are more welcome in Europe than Syrian refugees. That doesn’t make it right though. And classifying Europe as “sophisticated” and other countries as “always violent...” is the kind of attitude that leads to African or Middle Eastern refugees being treated like potential criminals.

Yes. All of this. Exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. I did start to use the terms "chauvinism" and "xenophobia" instead of "racism" in some of these cases because it might be more appropriate in this European context (I do agree that aspects of the U.S.'s history are rooted racial distinctions and preservation of those distinctions in a way that European societies are not). It is hardly better, though. And there is certainly racism (i.e. discrimination against people because of their skin color) in Europe. Here is a place to get started: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_Kingdom

This is incorrect, although it would depend on some gray areas of the definition. Racism can be found in early India, China, and what is now Japan, for example. Other regions, including Africa have a long history of racism or racist tendencies. The Bible of course is full of those (which is probably the biggest “rip” and societal change of Christianity from the Old Testament). Romans were pretty racist of course, and so the Greeks, although the Romans were more interested in slaves and resources than actual racism. Tribalism of course also enters the equation.

Europeans certainly didn't invent discrimination or tribalism. But the early modern concept of division of the world's population into races and certain races being inferior has European colonial origins.

 

[User.45]

Can you guys just start a new thread? This is becoming the biggest offtopic shit show I've seen on this forum to date.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Europeans certainly didn't invent discrimination or tribalism. But the early modern concept of division of the world's population into races and certain races being inferior has European colonial origins.

Yes and no. I think that Europeans, especially in the XIX century, basically made it a science. As for the superior/inferior that’s as old as humanity and somewhat everywhere (just think the Aryans in India/Hinduism), but the Europeans codified it very well.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Can you guys just start a new thread? This is becoming the biggest offtopic shit show I've seen on this forum to date.

Agreed. Some mod should select all the OT messages and move them to a new thread.

 

[Deleted member 215]

After a few requests for a new thread, I've decided to start one.

A few questions that can be addressed here to get the ball rolling:

1. To what extent is racism or xenophobia a factor in the differing way in which Ukrainian refugees have been received into other European countries vs. how Syrian/African refugees were received?
2. To what extent does racism exist in Europe and how does it differ from racism in the United States?

 

[Zoidberg]

After a few requests for a new thread, I've decided to start one.

A few questions that can be addressed here to get the ball rolling:

1. To what extent is racism or xenophobia a factor in the differing way in which Ukrainian refugees have been received into other European countries vs. how Syrian/African refugees were received?
2. To what extent does racism exist in Europe and how does it differ from racism in the United States?

1: No extent. It's paperwork and sheer volume of people. White Brits have also been stuck at the border of the host nations. They should get in touch with their embassy, and have them sort it out.

2. Of course there's racism in Europe. Name a country where there's no racism. It differs in many ways however, because Europe history is not as homogenous as the US', so what I say about my experience will be completely different from what someone my age will have experienced if they grew up in Poland, or in London. Black/ME/Asian minorities in Southern Europe are relatively recent, whereas in the US they go back to the origin of the country. For example, growing up in Spain, I don't recall seeing a black person until I was 8 or so. There was exactly one asian family in my town. If anything, I'll have the same experience as Yaxo (similar age, and –I guess– similar environment), but that will be very much different from what others might have seen in the same period elsewhere. Also, until about 20 years ago, minorities were immigrants, so you can't really pin the racism on the colour on the skin, there's more to it.

 

[Deleted member 215]

Do you think the number of Islamic attacks in Europe (sometimes committed on the part of immigrants or their children) is just cause to be wary of admitting more Muslim immigrants?

(Comparatively speaking, the US has had far fewer attacks of this nature than say, France).

 

[User.45]

1. Word of the day is affinity bias.
2. The foreign students actually pay good money to study in Ukraine, so they significantly contribute to the budget of these institutions.
3. "Civilized" is still code word for white, speaking a romantce/germanic language. Semi-civilized = white but linguistically "other"
4. Colonialist and non-colonialist Europe have significantly different manifestations of racism.
5. To argue about racism, you need to define race.

For example, growing up in Spain, I don't recall seeing a black person until I was 8 or so. There was exactly one asian family in my town. If anything, I'll have the same experience as Yaxo (similar age, and –I guess– similar environment), but that will be very much different from what others might have seen in the same period elsewhere. Also, until about 20 years ago, minorities were immigrants, so you can't really pin the racism on the colour on the skin, there's more to it.

My experience is from the very perspective of the black person and asian family. We were the only black family in town. Most people had only seen black people on TV, many in the context of refugee crises. And this before the iron curtain's fall. My mom was super protective of me, because the neo-nazi movement was on an uptick when I was small. I was safe at school, because from elementary to high-school I was in highly selective schools. But, I was definitely bullied when I was the smallest kid in the locker room. Stuff that gives you a situational awareness "wokeness" originally refers to. I was in my 20s when I realized one pattern. My very closest friends parents were all doctors, as they've all had African classmates in medical school, and by that and the profession, they were the least racist, most accepting people by far. One thing the typical Nigerian parent, like my father tells their kids, is to go into medicine or pharmacy because there, you have a good chance to be treated as an equal. I was annoyed by this in my late teens, but he was absolutely right about it.

Now for the differential in attitude in eastern europe: these are people and cultures they've lived with for many many centuries. Some of these ethno state borders are so poorly drawn, a lot of the populations taken in are ethnically congruent with the recipient state.

That still doesn't eliminate the issue, which evidently some don't seem to grasp
1. White kids with the same stories are not called migrants there, even if they have a slight accent.
2. The meaning of migrant was deliberately turned into a slur for brown people you need to be vary of.

I found these 2 paragraphs from @Scepticalscribe disappointing:

I have been told, to my face (via interpreters and translators) - in refugee camps, in Georgia, which I visited, in an official capacity, when working with the EU, and in a refugee camp, in Bosnia, shortly after the war, in 1997 when I was running (my mandate meant I ran the elections working with the locals, not merely observed them) elections - we were ensuring that people living there were registered to vote and were able to vote - I was told: "I used to be just like you; once I had a home, a good job, a nice car, a foreign holiday every year, " and that is the point: It is precisely because they "used to be just like me" that one can relate to them in a more powerful way.

And that does bring home forcefully - in a way that wars in countries that are dysfunctional, and repressive (and have always been) do not, because you cannot conceive of ever living there, or wanting to live there, or ever wanting any part of their political culture even if you do explore elements of their actual culture - that progress is not inevitable, and nor is it linear, that worlds and cultures can collapse and be destroyed just as easily as they were created. You can identify with, relate to, someone fleeing a war in Europe - precisely because it is a world and culture with which you are familiar - a lot more easily than someone flleeing a war in a country that was always violent, unstable, and repressive.

Because as a brown person, I can tell you one of the things I've learned and perfected to an art is how to make sure to humanize myself to people to avoid the situations where they accidentally forget. My grandmother was referring to this.

So yes, I actually take it very personally when I am being mansplained by my experiences in a very discussion where the point is supposed to be making others realize they have blindspots.

 

[SuperMatt]

1: No extent. It's paperwork and sheer volume of people. White Brits have also been stuck at the border of the host nations. They should get in touch with their embassy, and have them sort it out.

I’m sorry to say, some denial or forgetfulness seems to be in effect here.

Why Poland doesn’t want refugees

An ethnically homogenous nation battles EU efforts to distribute asylum seekers.

www.politico.eu

By refusing refugees, Poles, Hungarians and Czechs ‘broke EU law’

Warsaw, Budapest and Prague will face no immediate penalty for refusing to host refugees in 2015.

www.aljazeera.com

Prime Minister of Poland: Poland will not accept refugees from Muslim countries

Poland does not intend to change its position and begin accepting refugees from Muslim countries, stated the Prime Minister of Poland Mateusz Morawiecki on Polish television. “We have not changed our position from that formulated by the Law and Justice Party (the ruling party of Poland) before...

uawire.org

“We have not changed our position from that formulated by the Law and Justice Party (the ruling party of Poland) before the elections (more than two years ago), and we will not accept migrants from the Middle East and North Africa in Poland,” Morawiecki said.

“At the same time, on the eastern borders of the European Union, we are extremely involved in reducing tension, and we have already taken tens of thousands, or maybe several hundred thousand refugees from Ukraine,” he added.

As for Spain specifically?

Spain refuses 94% of all refugee applications rescued by Aquarius rescue ship - Olive Press News Spain

INFORMATION released through Spain’s transparency act has revealed that the country has refused almost all applications from refugees rescued by the

www.theolivepress.es

In many cases, leaders specifically used the idea that Muslims would ruin their culture if they let them in.

And please, do you think it would be a good idea for Syrian refugees to ask for help at the Syrian embassy, after being bombed by their own President?

It is absolutely NOT the fear of paperwork that led to African and Middle Eastern refugees being refused by many European countries. Let’s get real.

 

[Zoidberg]

I’m sorry to say, some denial or forgetfulness seems to be in effect here.

Why Poland doesn’t want refugees

An ethnically homogenous nation battles EU efforts to distribute asylum seekers.

www.politico.eu

By refusing refugees, Poles, Hungarians and Czechs ‘broke EU law’

Warsaw, Budapest and Prague will face no immediate penalty for refusing to host refugees in 2015.

www.aljazeera.com

Prime Minister of Poland: Poland will not accept refugees from Muslim countries

Poland does not intend to change its position and begin accepting refugees from Muslim countries, stated the Prime Minister of Poland Mateusz Morawiecki on Polish television. “We have not changed our position from that formulated by the Law and Justice Party (the ruling party of Poland) before...

uawire.org

As for Spain specifically?

Spain refuses 94% of all refugee applications rescued by Aquarius rescue ship - Olive Press News Spain

INFORMATION released through Spain’s transparency act has revealed that the country has refused almost all applications from refugees rescued by the

www.theolivepress.es

In many cases, leaders specifically used the idea that Muslims would ruin their culture if they let them in.

And please, do you think it would be a good idea for Syrian refugees to ask for help at the Syrian embassy, after being bombed by their own President?

It is absolutely NOT the fear of paperwork that led to African and Middle Eastern refugees being refused by many European countries. Let’s get real.

Regarding paperwork, I'm talking in the context of the Ukrainian war specifically. If the people at the border have been told to let in everyone with a Ukrainian passport (as they were told at the beginning, before that was waived a few days later), it would indeed leave out minorities. As for the Aquarius, I remember it very well, and it was very much a political stance by Rajoy to try to win the upcoming elections (he eventually lost just weeks later), just like Trump built his "strong on immigration" message. Don't mistake a specific government's policies with the general view on refugees, because they will always try to please their voters.

But regarding this crisis, I insist: not admitting non-Ukrainians outright is probably a matter of admin as again, it seems to have happened with most other non-Ukrainians citizens (although the Polish govt being who they are, I also assume that non-Ukrainians are probably low on the list of priorities).

It should also be noted –again– that the thread title is fundamentally wrong, because Europe contains very different countries that have had very different experiences. Speaking about the countries I know best, the UK and France have a large number of second and third generation immigrants from their former colonies, while Spain, as I mentioned, had virtually no immigration until fairly recently.
It's a bit like like saying "Racism in the US", and trying to put together places as varied as Hawaii, Alaska, New Jersey, California and Mississippi. Different history, different attitudes, different contexts. What was true in Spain 30 years ago is similar to what you see in Poland now, but for very different reasons.

 

[SuperMatt]

I'm talking in the context of this crisis specifically. As for the Aquarius, I remember it very well, and it was very much a political stance by Rajoy to try to win the upcoming elections (he eventually lost just weeks later), just like Trump built his "strong on immigration" message. Don't mistake a specific government's policies with the general view on refugees, because they will always try to please their voters.

But regarding this crisis, I insist: not admitting non-Ukrainians outright is probably a matter of admin as again, it seems to have happened with most other non-Ukrainians citizens (although the Polish govt being who they are, I also assume that non-Ukrainians are probably low on the list of priorities).

Perhaps you misunderstood @TBL ’s question. He was asking you to compare this crisis to the Syrian refugee crisis that peaked in the 2010’s.

1. To what extent is racism or xenophobia a factor in the differing way in which Ukrainian refugees have been received into other European countries vs. how Syrian/African refugees were received?

Most European countries seem to have plenty of room for Ukrainians in 2022, whereas they put up “No Vacancy” signs for North African and Middle Eastern refugees in the 2010’s.

 

[Zoidberg]

Perhaps you misunderstood @TBL ’s question. He was asking you to compare this crisis to the Syrian refugee crisis that peaked in the 2010’s.



Most European countries seem to have plenty of room for Ukrainians in 2022, whereas they put up “No Vacancy” signs for North African and Middle Eastern refugees in the 2010’s.

Oh yeah, I totally didn't see that second part of the question. But again, it's the wording makes it impossible to answer. The EU's power is limited, and each country does what whatever party is in power at that time decides to do. I can talk about Spain because I know it well, but Germany had a very different approach. Unlike the US, where refugee intake is determined at the federal level, in Europe each country is free (to a point) to say no (I believe they are supposed to take certain numbers based on EU recommendations, but you know how that goes).

The geography also plays an important part. Refugees from the Syrian war landed in Greece, refugees from the Libyan war landed in Spain or Italy. Then, they'd try to move to countries where they spoke the language or that had better policies (Germany, France, UK). Bear in mind that Spain at the time had unemployment rates between 30% and 70% (it was shortly after the GFC, and it was brutal). Good luck trying to get a job in that market without speaking the language. (this graph only covers up to 2012, but it should give you an idea of how grim it was).

Racism aside, you can imagine that saying "by the way, we're letting in another 50000 people" was not a good way to win elections.

 

[Deleted member 215]

Arab students relate their experiences in leaving Ukraine for Poland:

‘There’s Poland, now walk’: Arab students’ ordeal out of Ukraine

Moroccan students recount experience of discrimination at hands of Ukrainian soldiers, citizens as they fled the war.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[JayMysteri0]

Arab students relate their experiences in leaving Ukraine for Poland:

‘There’s Poland, now walk’: Arab students’ ordeal out of Ukraine

Moroccan students recount experience of discrimination at hands of Ukrainian soldiers, citizens as they fled the war.

www.aljazeera.com

I'm sure it's not racism, but some other ism or different polysyllabic word.

I'll just wait around for someone with a more broad vocabulary to explain me to what that actually was INSTEAD.

 

[JayMysteri0]

Even though this isn't directly related it is tangental. I'll post this here so I don't upset others in another thread about the whole Ukraine situation.

Someone else can double post it there and not catch the flak.

Seems the collateral damage is about to start. Bringing back the days of negotiating for the release of US citizens.

Brittney Griner, Star W.N.B.A. Center, Is Detained in Russia (Published 2022)

Russian customs officials said a U.S. basketball player had vape cartridges containing hashish oil in her luggage. A Russian news agency identified the player as Griner.

www.nytimes.com

How Britney Griner didn't leave when the rest of the WNBA talent were leaving or even consider much earlier I can't guess. She is...

 

[User.45]

Arab students relate their experiences in leaving Ukraine for Poland:

‘There’s Poland, now walk’: Arab students’ ordeal out of Ukraine

Moroccan students recount experience of discrimination at hands of Ukrainian soldiers, citizens as they fled the war.

www.aljazeera.com

To emphasize, these student's aren't "poor people" from "uncivilised places" with "eternal war". The students pay 3-4x the median annual income of a Ukrainian for tuition. The students are definitely used to being treated better than regular Ukrainian on the regular, so even if they weren't mistreated, the ukrainian reality would hit them hard. But obviously it's not the case here.

There's no excuse for this:

“The army differentiated between people depending on their skin colour and gender,” said al-Attar. “Women were allowed to proceed within hours, while men could wait for four or five days.

“Also, the darker your skin the worse and longer the wait,” al-Attar told Al Jazeera, adding Black people and Asians were beaten and sent to the back of the queues.

“At this point, people were splayed on the ground with hypothermia. Others were collapsing from exhaustion. But that was just us Arabs, Black people and Asians. Ukrainians got through in minutes,” she said.

 

[Zoidberg]

There's no excuse for this:

I've never been to Ukraine (although I've read a bit about it and I've kept an eye on news about it since 2014). However, I've worked with quite a few Ukrainians and many Eastern Europeans. It would be a mistake to think that Ukraine is full with modern, forward thinking people. The general rule of thumb that Eastern Europeans are very racist still stands, so that behaviour doesn't come as a surprise. The recent turn towards the West and the EU is a very strong indicator that attitudes are changing, but you don't change decades of isolationism overnight.

Just an anecdote, but it's quite representative of the situation: I was recently –a couple of years ago– asked by a Romanian how I could be okay with my girlfriend earning more than me. I answered that I was her participation trophy husband and that I expected her to make more than me, but the joke fell flat.