Russia-Ukraine

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Biden suggested Putin could just redraw from the region and tell the Russian people he accomplished whatever it was he set out to accomplish. I'm curious to find out what he or Putin thinks the accomplishment is that will satisfy the friends and family of the mountains of dead on both sides.

 

[lizkat]

Sickening: Russia resorts to killing a cultural leader who was resisting occupation of Ukraine.

Russian troops kill Ukrainian musician for refusing role in Kherson concert

International condemnation swift after conductor Yuriy Kerpatenko shot dead in his home

www.theguardian.com

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Sickening: Russia resorts to killing a cultural leader who was resisting occupation of Ukraine.

Russian troops kill Ukrainian musician for refusing role in Kherson concert

International condemnation swift after conductor Yuriy Kerpatenko shot dead in his home

www.theguardian.com

Earlier today, I read with dawning horror about the appalling murder of Yuriy Kerpatenko; for these people, - and I used to teach Russian and Soviet history and politics - slaughtering and murdering (dissenting and courageous) artists - and taking a depraved pleasure in this - are simply a painful but predictable page from their sanguinary, sometimes disgusting, and occasionally horribly blood-soaked history. Even their victories come drenched in blood (usually, though not always, of their own people).

They treat those whom they rule atrociously badly, not just because they view them with contempt, but also because they have never learned to treat themselves well, when ruling themselves.

And they have never learned the concept of ruling with the consent of the governed, or with the respect of the governed (a respect and consent which are conferred through genuine elections and sustained by decent and ethical governance, where the rulers respect themselves and those whom they govern, neither of which are - or ever have been - the case in Russia).

Above all, they choose not to learn from their own awful history, instead preferring nihilistic destruction and savage slaughter. Some legacy.

 

[Huntn]

Sickening: Russia resorts to killing a cultural leader who was resisting occupation of Ukraine.

Russian troops kill Ukrainian musician for refusing role in Kherson concert

International condemnation swift after conductor Yuriy Kerpatenko shot dead in his home

www.theguardian.com

This mob’s modus operandi, eliminate resistance, instill fear. I don’t know if Orange Cheeto ever had a contract on someone, but I can easily imagine with his love of “strong murderous” leaders falling into this pattern if he ever finds the needed support.

 

[lizkat]

This mob’s modus operandi, eliminate resistance, instill fear. I don’t know if Orange Cheeto ever had a contract on someone, but I can easily imagine with his love of “strong murderous” leaders falling into this pattern if he ever finds the needed support.

Well Trump has long been modeling his playbook on the same tack most fascists take, so there's no reason to expect him to be different if he regained political office.

I mean it's not like Ukraine expects Putin to change his stripes at this point. He's old school USSR and they know it. So what we see of these guys is what there is and who they are... and as far as what just happened in Ukraine, with the assassination of that conductor who would not help Putin make it look like Kherson welcomed the "annexation", all that did was stiffen Ukraine's resolve to repel the occupiers.

Will that change how Putin operates? No. Who knows how the conflict in Ukraine will end.

This stupid move though is another straw in the pile that will finally tell Russians they need a different leader. Russians have an unfortunately long history of tolerance for abuse from their own government. Still, they're all aware now that the so-called "special military operation" has gone horribly wrong. Coffins coming home and conscription were not in that recipe floated by Putin back in late winter. Neither was the blatant murder of a Ukrainian orchestra conductor.

 

[Huntn]

Well Trump has long been modeling his playbook on the same tack most fascists take, so there's no reason to expect him to be different if he regained political office.

I mean it's not like Ukraine expects Putin to change his stripes at this point. He's old school USSR and they know it. So what we see of these guys is what there is and who they are... and as far as what just happened in Ukraine, with the assassination of that conductor who would not help Putin make it look like Kherson welcomed the "annexation", all that did was stiffen Ukraine's resolve to repel the occupiers.

Will that change how Putin operates? No. Who knows how the conflict in Ukraine will end.

This stupid move though is another straw in the pile that will finally tell Russians they need a different leader. Russians have an unfortunately long history of tolerance for abuse from their own government. Still, they're all aware now that the so-called "special military operation" has gone horribly wrong. Coffins coming home and conscription were not in that recipe floated by Putin back in late winter. Neither was the blatant murder of a Ukrainian orchestra conductor.

My guess is that changing how Putin operates involves a bullet, or the threat of a bullet if there is such authority over him in the shadows.

 

[lizkat]

Maybe time for something radical. Make a deal with the richest five Russian oligarchs to take the sanctions off them if they just buy the f'g Russian army (which will then be put to work restoring the damage to Ukraine before being allowed to go back to their families and raise wheat or build solar panels or whatever). And meanwhile guarantee Putin safe passage to oh I dunno how about one of the 17,000 islands of the Indonesian Archipelago. He gets to relax under casual surveillance of a drone and a once-monthly drop of re-ups on food and drink of his choice.

One of those isles must be for sale by now, all things climate-related taken into consideration.

 

[Nycturne]

Maybe time for something radical. Make a deal with the richest five Russian oligarchs to take the sanctions off them if they just buy the f'g Russian army (which will then be put to work restoring the damage to Ukraine before being allowed to go back to their families and raise wheat or build solar panels or whatever). And meanwhile guarantee Putin safe passage to oh I dunno how about one of the 17,000 islands of the Indonesian Archipelago. He gets to relax under casual surveillance of a drone and a once-monthly drop of re-ups on food and drink of his choice.

One of those isles must be for sale by now, all things climate-related taken into consideration.

Not having to live out of a Soyuez capsule, piling up cans of tinned food?

 

[Yoused]

guarantee Putin safe passage to oh I dunno how about one of the 17,000 islands of the Indonesian Archipelago

Maybe the Aussies would be kind enough to set him up on Heard Island. That would be the kind of climate he would be more familiar with, and also a lot farther from anywhere.

 

[lizkat]

Maybe the Aussies would be kind enough to set him sys on Heard Island. That would be the kind of climate he would be more familiar with, and also a lot farther from anywhere.

Ya got me there, I had to go look it up! Weird, the Wiki entry says although there's no population now, the island even has its own top level domain (country code), so ol' Vlad could apply to register his own domain and remain really really special, assuming he could get what's his name to give him a StarLink setup.

Not having to live out of a Soyuez capsule, piling up cans of tinned food?

Yeah, living on tinned stuff plus the occasional fresh fish maybe cooked over something fired up by solar panels could get old fast, right? Sounds perfect.

 

[Yoused]

Head of Russia's mobilization task force found dead near a fence at his home. Officials have not yet ruled out suicide. Or murder. He was 49 years old. "Recruiters" facing a push to bring in 80,000 more soldiers to finish filling the Tsar's demand have been grabbing men where ever they can. Needless to say, they are a popular lot.

 

[Cmaier]

Head of Russia's mobilization task force found dead near a fence at his home. Officials have not yet ruled out suicide. Or murder. He was 49 years old. "Recruiters" facing a push to bring in 80,000 more soldiers to finish filling the Tsar's demand have been grabbing men where ever they can. Needless to say, they are a popular lot.

Weird. I thought the only cause of death in Russia was falling out of windows. The things you learn…

 

[lizkat]

Head of Russia's mobilization task force found dead near a fence at his home. Officials have not yet ruled out suicide. Or murder. He was 49 years old. "Recruiters" facing a push to bring in 80,000 more soldiers to finish filling the Tsar's demand have been grabbing men where ever they can. Needless to say, they are a popular lot.

When an aggressor has to grab up people off the street and stuff them onto the front lines without adequate training (or any interest whatsoever in fighting a war), things are not going to end well for that country, even if the war itself, wherever it is, meanwhile drags on with indiscriminate horror visited upon everyone and everything.

You just wish someone would hold up a flashing amber light and ask if what has already transpired has been worth it.

But then some people did that in the USA, when we shifted up from "military advisors" to regular troops to prop up what had become the South Vietnamese government in 1955 as the French exited the colonial era in Indochina.​

​

Sometimes no one wants to answer that question "has it been worth it?" out of believing their country is already in too deep and cannot cut losses, and that there must be "light at the end of the tunnel" and a justification around the corner... and of course the light in the tunnel is usually just the express train of war's hell rushing to meet the next round of troops.​

Some Americans said to the US government "Don't escalate" when it became clear that newly independent but formally divided Vietnam could not settle peacefully the matter of who should rule a reunited country.​

​

But the "domino theory" of multiple countries falling to communism was advanced by the movers and shakers of US foreign policy at that time, and we ended up sustaining a hellscape of war that lasted for 20 years and had not a chance in hell of being "won" by us, since we were the same as the French in the end: oppressive occupiers. In fact the Vietnamese still call it "the American war" -- even the tens of thousands who fled from the south and eventually landed here or in Canada.​

​

Putin cannot answer that question "has it been worth it?" for Russians right now because they will gainsay him by pointing to the graves of their sons and the fierce resistance in Ukraine.

Unfortunately he seems to have decided that surely throwing enough conscripts and Iranian-supplied weapons will finally turn the corner on his bollixed "special military operation."

That should have a gruesome ring to any Russians who remember not only their own long stint in Afghanistan but ours as well, plus the Americans' quagmire in Vietnam.

 

[Yoused]

Weird. I thought the only cause of death in Russia was falling out of windows. The things you learn…

There may have been a window nearby for him to fall out of. The story does not describe the area. Or maybe he fell out of an airplane window just as he was about to get home.

 

[lizkat]

There may have been a window nearby for him to fall out of. The story does not describe the area. Or maybe he fell out of an airplane window just as he was about to get home.

If you get the drift that you're definitely going to be the major scapegoat for a failed operation directed by Putin, maybe a preemptive strike against the bad luck of falling out of a window can seem like a better option. I mean that guy knew he couldn't round up enough fit conscripts for this thing to meet the 300k quota. Anyone fit enough to serve has already gone... "somewhere."

 

[lizkat]

This post could belong in "what are you doing today" but it's more related to this thread.

So today at the moment I am recovering from the shock of hearing a friend say on the phone --after remarking that she loathes reading the news lately, which I'm sure anyone can understand-- that as far as the conflict in Ukraine goes, it's her opinion that Ukraine should "just give them back the land, stop the fighting already, so much suffering."

"Give them back the land?"

Wow. I was speechless for long enough that she inquired if our connection had broken. Then I reminded her that Ukraine was a sovereign nation, and that the world had already learned that appeasing a dictator does not sate his appetite for empire.

She said again that it was just her opinion and anyway everyone was tired of it. I suggested that "being tired of war" does not mean it's time to roll over for a guy schooled in the ways of the old USSR and thinking by force to revive and cement control of neighbors.

The European Union gets that: it just bumped support for Ukraine by another €500 million to a total of €3.1 billion. But I decided it was time to stir the soup simmering on back of stove... and with that we agreed to "talk soon," wishing each other a good day.

Honestly I can't think what to say to her next time we speak. Odd for a news junkie like me to hope that whatever's on our minds, the news doesn't then rise to top of the agenda.

EDIT: EU allocation in euros, not dollars, duh.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

This post could belong in "what are you doing today" but it's more related to this thread.

So today at the moment I am recovering from the shock of hearing a friend say on the phone --after remarking that she loathes reading the news lately, which I'm sure anyone can understand-- that as far as the conflict in Ukraine goes, it's her opinion that Ukraine should "just give them back the land, stop the fighting already, so much suffering."

"Give them back the land?"

Wow. I was speechless for long enough that she inquired if our connection had broken. Then I reminded her that Ukraine was a sovereign nation, and that the world had already learned that appeasing a dictator does not sate his appetite for empire.

She said again that it was just her opinion and anyway everyone was tired of it. I suggested that "being tired of war" does not mean it's time to roll over for a guy schooled in the ways of the old USSR and thinking by force to revive and cement control of neighbors.

The European Union gets that: it just bumped support for Ukraine by another $500 million to a total of $3.1 billion. But I decided it was time to stir the soup simmering on back of stove... and with that we agreed to "talk soon," wishing each other a good day.

Honestly I can't think what to say to her next time we speak. Odd for a news junkie like me to hope that whatever's on our minds, the news doesn't then rise to top of the agenda.

An example - and a rather dismal one - of "privilege", in this sense geographic - the US is protected by its considerable power and by two large oceans - rather than a privilege derived from ethnicity, gender, or social class.

I'll wager if she lived in Europe she might hold a different opinion.

In any case, I will readily concede that I'm as much of a "champagne socialist" as you can find, I am more than partial to the good things in life, yet, to me, this is an existential struggle, and I will argue for - and strongly support - whatever (lawful) measures Europe needs to take to counter this, oppose this, resist this, and yes, help to defeat this: Conceding that principle (don't invade sovereign countries) at this stage to that moral monster (and his cronies) in the Kremlin means rewarding the aggressor, and rewarding this conduct in international affairs (invasion of a sovereign state, mass murder, bombing civilians, forcible resettlement, killing artists, destroying robbing, raping, plundering, wrecking).

It would mean traducing and utterly destroying belief in the very concept of the rule of law, and that the rule of law is above all and should be applied to all - that there exist principles that all should abide by and uphold - (which, for what it is worth, I now think is one of the major motivations behind Mr Putin's "special military operation", and is at least as important as the mad imperative to restore spaces once ruled by Russia to Russian rule).

And conceding this principle - you don't invade sovereign countries - would allow a world where the strong could invade and over-power the weak at will, a world where statecraft and diplomacy are replaced by Mafia morality at state level.

 

[lizkat]

I'll wager if she lived in Europe she might hold a different opinion

One should hope so. Well her great grandfather is surely rolling in his grave. He fled with family from eastern Europe in the late 19th century, helped build one of the synagogues in NYC's lower east side and celebrated not the privilege but the guarantee of freedom to worship openly in his new home. So I was really surprised at her take on Putin's aggression in Ukraine.

She doesn't "follow the news" though, that's now entirely clear. She has said that in the past and it's true we generally don't speak of news or politics. But I had no idea exactly what she meant by "not following" and today came as revelation: I had mentioned the terrible assassination of "the Ukrainian orchestra conductor" and she had said "Oh, because of the war?, who killed him, I mean was it soldiers? so on which side?"

So when she says she doesn't follow the news, she REALLY MEANS IT. But that also means she's exposed in the most random of ways to "the news" anyway. So that's as it is. But it seems inexcusable to have formed an opinion in a vacuum save for snippets heard in passing.

In some future, if and when "they" come for "us," I guess she'd suggest "we" just give "them" the borough of Queens or the Bronx to see if that will make "them" happy? Maybe climate change will come for the south shore of Long Island in the meantime. She's been complaining of no rain and then floods when the drought breaks now and again. So does she think if the USA just maybe cedes the dunes of Fire Island to the rising ocean, it will quit while it's ahead?

In any case, I will readily concede that I'm as much of a "champagne socialist" as you can find, I am more than partial to the good things in life, yet, to me, this is an existential struggle, and I will argue for - and strongly support - whatever (lawful) measures Europe needs to take to counter this, oppose this, resist this, and yes, help to defeat this

I have to check myself sometimes because (and especially in retirement) I like living in a certain orderly or only mildly surprised fashion. Also, even if mostly due to my advancing age, it's not that often I inconvenience myself to go out and join a local protest against some national or local policy. It's not taxing for me to sit here and utter support for Ukraine's existential struggle and to hope that western allies continue to press home to Putin the utter unacceptability of his transgressions in Ukraine. I'm mindful though of not being in Kyiv this afternoon... and so yes, aware of privilege to form an opinion without living through "facts on the ground."

The least I can do is keep informed on what has happened, what is happening, or so I see the minimum extent of my own duty. It's why I was appalled that my friend could so casually have imagined that "giving back the land" is even a construct in this terrible war.

 

[Yoused]

the Lithuanian Foreign Minister appears to be especially skilled in English

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1582398988711780355/

 

[lizkat]

Vlad's houseboy Kevin pipes up

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1582433015908929537/