Russia-Ukraine

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Mikhail Gorbachev changed history — and then the West paved the way for Putin

I was in Moscow when Gorbachev changed everything. But neoliberal "shock therapy" destroyed a historic opportunity

www.salon.com

Interesting take. Basically after the collapse of the Soviet Union the west (Read: US?) handed Russia the blue print for one of the biggest periods of inequality in capitalism’s history and said “Do this”. This is when Putin began his career. Then couple that starting point with all the up and coming modern methods of wealth theft and corruption and here we are. Of course we could have helped them with a less destructive path, which we had elsewhere in the past, but that isn’t profitable for the west (Read: US?)

 

[Huntn]

Hah! Well looking around the world, that's been a problem for a long, long time.

Money talks. Lots a money talks really loudly.

And when our politicians get into bed with dodgy Billionaires… well… yeah. We end up where we are today.

Lots of hand wringing and mea culpae.

To quote a great movie villain, Hannibal Lecter: "We begin by coveting what we see every day."
And for politicians who rub shoulders every day with the super rich. Man, oh man! Don't they all just want a little bit more? A flat renovated? Special seats at the football game? A little bit of grease to smooth things over.

And before you know it, constituents be damned! Morals be damned! All decency be damned!
It is just so lovely sucking on that champagne teat.
Little holidays on a super yacht.
Special deliveries of extra special caviar.

Ya know? The things that make it all so worthwhile slaving away in Parliament or Government.

The proles… they. Well. They. Just. Don't. Understand.

"Oh, another invitation to be a Board member? Why you shouldn't have. But how about I nominate my wife? Thanks!"

I won’t speak for other countries, but you have just described the USA perfectly. As far as humanity in general I would describe a significant number of us as selfish and greedy. For the longest time conservatives pushed the idea of work hard and become wealthy. Not to demean hard work, but only if it was that easy. The thing is they sell a fantasy, the sysytem is not set up so everyone, or even a majority can become “wealthy”. Then from a philosophical standpoint, we (humans) can debate what the definition of wealth is or should be.

I’d argue a future without continuous conflict and upheaval involves socialism but then I know how humans function. If you look at the major Communist countries, a cousin to socialism, we have a serious problem with corruption that tends to stymie human advancement.

 

[yaxomoxay]

@Scepticalscribe you might find this quite interesting:

Moscow Patriarch Kirill: Ukraine Orthodox bishops in 'schism'

News: Ukraine

www.pillarcatholic.com

Basically all Orthodox leaders in Ukraine, including Russian Orthodox leaders, separated from Moscow.

 

[yaxomoxay]

I read on the Italian news that Putin declared that “Ukrainians and Russians are the same people.”

If true, this Sounds like full annexation is the goal.

 

[Huntn]

I read on the Italian news that Putin declared that “Ukrainians and Russians are the same people.”

If true, this Sounds like full annexation is the goal.

That would be even worse than a installing a puppet government. So how do the kids feel when Dad stomps in, kills their siblings, then declares we’re one big happy family?

 

[yaxomoxay]

That would be even worse than a installing a puppet government. So how do the kids feel when Dad stomps in, kills their siblings, then declares we’re one big happy family?

Sadly it wouldn’t be the first time in history that this happens. If you think about, he already leaned towards that during his invasion speech. If he’s actually saying that Russia and Ukraine is the same, it can mean only that Ukraine will cease to exist as a country. We shall see.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Hah! Well looking around the world, that's been a problem for a long, long time.

Money talks. Lots a money talks really loudly.

And when our politicians get into bed with dodgy Billionaires… well… yeah. We end up where we are today.

Lots of hand wringing and mea culpae.

To quote a great movie villain, Hannibal Lecter: "We begin by coveting what we see every day."
And for politicians who rub shoulders every day with the super rich. Man, oh man! Don't they all just want a little bit more? A flat renovated? Special seats at the football game? A little bit of grease to smooth things over.

And before you know it, constituents be damned! Morals be damned! All decency be damned!
It is just so lovely sucking on that champagne teat.
Little holidays on a super yacht.
Special deliveries of extra special caviar.

Ya know? The things that make it all so worthwhile slaving away in Parliament or Government.

The proles… they. Well. They. Just. Don't. Understand.

"Oh, another invitation to be a Board member? Why you shouldn't have. But how about I nominate my wife? Thanks!"

And this is why I am in favour of - and have long been in favour of - paying decent (very decent) salaries to politicians.

Politics shouldn't be confined to thsoe who have access to:

1): Private incomes of their own, and can afford to enter politics.

2): Those who live off the private incomes of others, and thus, can afford a political career.

Leaving aside the fact that confining political life to the already wealthy, or the already bought, this serves to exclude from poitical life those who are not born wealthy, or who may stand to inherit wealth from political power.

Worse, this also means that you grow up, with a lack of imagination - or lack of awareness, and often, a complete lack of empathy - of the facts and the sordid compromises, and the needs of the lives of those who are less fortunate, or less financially well endowed than you, and yor polices in offcie will reflect this.

And, worst of all, if your wealth in politics - or your income - derives from others, then, you are bought, and you are primarily answerable to them, and not to your electorate. And, yes, your policies, inevitably, and regrettably, will also tend to reflect this, something that, at the very least, will not only corrosively corrupt democracy, but contribute to a profound disillusion with its workings.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Hah! Well looking around the world, that's been a problem for a long, long time.

Money talks. Lots a money talks really loudly.

And when our politicians get into bed with dodgy Billionaires… well… yeah. We end up where we are today.

Lots of hand wringing and mea culpae.

To quote a great movie villain, Hannibal Lecter: "We begin by coveting what we see every day."
And for politicians who rub shoulders every day with the super rich. Man, oh man! Don't they all just want a little bit more? A flat renovated? Special seats at the football game? A little bit of grease to smooth things over.

And before you know it, constituents be damned! Morals be damned! All decency be damned!
It is just so lovely sucking on that champagne teat.
Little holidays on a super yacht.
Special deliveries of extra special caviar.

Ya know? The things that make it all so worthwhile slaving away in Parliament or Government.

The proles… they. Well. They. Just. Don't. Understand.

"Oh, another invitation to be a Board member? Why you shouldn't have. But how about I nominate my wife? Thanks!"

Are you suggesting when a politician is contemplating a decision they sooner think of the people they hung out with on a yacht than the people they bought cupcakes from at the church bake sale? The only way you could come to that conclusion is if you look at what they actually do as opposed to what they say.

Yachts seem to be coming up a lot these days and I think for good reason. Here’s an idea. Instead of having book burnings we should have yacht burnings. I think both sides could get on board with that and it would be sending a message to the right people. That's unless somebody can prove to me that the world's authors are actively hoarding all the wealth.

 

[Zoidberg]

Mikhail Gorbachev changed history — and then the West paved the way for Putin

I was in Moscow when Gorbachev changed everything. But neoliberal "shock therapy" destroyed a historic opportunity

www.salon.com

Interesting take. Basically after the collapse of the Soviet Union the west (Read: US?) handed Russia the blue print for one of the biggest periods of inequality in capitalism’s history and said “Do this”. This is when Putin began his career. Then couple that starting point with all the up and coming modern methods of wealth theft and corruption and here we are. Of course we could have helped them with a less destructive path, which we had elsewhere in the past, but that isn’t profitable for the west (Read: US?)

Salon has a long history of shit takes, blaming the West for Putin's actions.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I read on the Italian news that Putin declared that “Ukrainians and Russians are the same people.”

If true, this Sounds like full annexation is the goal.

Sorta like how a certain historical Austrian German said Germans and Austrians are the same people.

 

[Zoidberg]

I read on the Italian news that Putin declared that “Ukrainians and Russians are the same people.”

If true, this Sounds like full annexation is the goal.

Full annexation was the goal. Now they have realised that the window of opportunity has closed and it's never going to happen, so they are going for full annihilation.

 

[User.45]

Sorta like how a certain historical Austrian German said Germans and Austrians are the same people.

Anschluß

 

[Arkitect]

And this is why I am in favour of - and have long been in favour of - paying decent (very decent) salaries to politicians.

I am not sure just paying our politicians more, much, much more is the answer at all. Hell! You're competing with billionaires here.

Because as it stands right now in the UK they are being paid a very decent salary.

MPs will earn £84,000 from April 2022 plus expenses for running their office — never mind the subsidised Pol Roger at the several Bars in Parliament.

This is just under three times more than the 2021 national medium salary of £31,461 in the United Kingdom.

So how much exactly should we be paying them? I would hope for a certain amount of moral character — christ! How about a sense of duty?

I don't believe paying them more is going to suddenly make them think about the population they represent.

I am extraordinarily cynical — and unforgiving — when it comes to our current batch of politicians.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

@Scepticalscribe you might find this quite interesting:

Moscow Patriarch Kirill: Ukraine Orthodox bishops in 'schism'

News: Ukraine

www.pillarcatholic.com

Basically all Orthodox leaders in Ukraine, including Russian Orthodox leaders, separated from Moscow.

This is fasciating, and I have been looking out for some stories which covered this, as it is important, (not least, as it supplies the theological, and thus, historical, justification - in so far as such a thing can be said to exist - for te Russian invasion, and attepted annexation, of Ukraine).

Now, I was aware that the Orthodox Church of Ukraine had split from the Moscow Patriarchy and that its autocephalous status (vehemently disputed by Moscow, and leading to the Moscow Patriarchy breaking away from Constantinople's ecclesiastical authority - a classical schism) - was recognised by the Patriarch (the First among Equals - primus Inter Pares - insofar as Orthodoxy recognises such a concept) in Constantinople in 2018.

However, while the Orthodox Church of Ukraine is recognised as autocephaous (administratively self-governing, in ecclesiastical terms, including the right to appoint bishops and clergy), by much (not all, that schism of 2018 received a lot less attention than it should have from scholars and analysts) of the Orthodox communion, the position of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate - which still recognises Moscow as its ultimate ecclesiastical authority) is interesting.

And your piece - thanks very much for posting it - is fascinating, and seems to suggest that for some within the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, the dilemma between citizenship and pastoral loyalty is being stretched to breaking point, not least because the Moscow Patriarchy is fulfillling its usual (and entirely predictable) role of offering theological justifications for indefensible and inexcusable actions on the part of the Russian state and government.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Salon has a long history of shit takes, blaming the West for Putin's actions.

There are countless examples of chicken or the egg scenarios where “This wouldn’t have happened if the US didn’t first do this”. That doesn’t make it a shit take. It just depends how far back in history you want to go and how much you you think that contributes responsibility from the current actors.

It’s like saying blacks in the US should stop blaming slavery for their current problems or determining who has more of a right to exist in Israel. There could be valid points or shit takes on both those issues.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I am not sure just paying our politicians more, much, much more is the answer at all. Hell! You're competing with billionaires here.

Because as it stands right now in the UK they are being paid a very decent salary.

MPs will earn £84,000 from April 2022 plus expenses for running their office — never mind the subsidised Pol Roger at the several Bars in Parliament.

This is just under three times more than the 2021 national medium salary of £31,461 in the United Kingdom.

So how much exactly should we be paying them? I would hope for a certain amount of moral character — christ! How about a sense of duty?

I don't believe paying them more is going to suddenly make them think about the population they represent.

I am extraordinarily cynical — and unforgiving — when it comes to our current batch of politicians.

As am I (re the current Tory administration & government).

But - and we get this especially from the left (where I used to dwell, to be found in my younger days in the fringes and fronds of the undergrowth of thta landscape) - that politicians should only be paid "an average working salary".

However, if you want honesty in public life (judges, politicians) they must be paid enough to be independent of vested interests (and to be able to afford - financially, as well as ethicaly and politically - to face down vested interests, and represent the public good.

Therefore, if you are not to confine this - a political career, a life as a professional politician - to the already wealthy (who would simply govern in the interests of their own class, even if otherwise not especially evil, and could not envisage a world where people are not wealthy - they never meet any except servants and staff - then you must be prepared to pay for it.

Otherwise, entry to political life is confined to saints, and that is also a world I would not wish on anyone.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I am not sure just paying our politicians more, much, much more is the answer at all. Hell! You're competing with billionaires here.

Because as it stands right now in the UK they are being paid a very decent salary.

MPs will earn £84,000 from April 2022 plus expenses for running their office — never mind the subsidised Pol Roger at the several Bars in Parliament.

This is just under three times more than the 2021 national medium salary of £31,461 in the United Kingdom.

So how much exactly should we be paying them? I would hope for a certain amount of moral character — christ! How about a sense of duty?

I don't believe paying them more is going to suddenly make them think about the population they represent.

I am extraordinarily cynical — and unforgiving — when it comes to our current batch of politicians.

In the US it’s starting to get to the point where you already have to be rich just to run and win…or be bat shit high on conspiracies. In either case that doesn’t really qualify you to be in touch with the concerns of the common citizen.

 

[Zoidberg]

There are countless examples of chicken or the egg scenarios where “This wouldn’t have happened if the US didn’t first do this”. That doesn’t make it a shit take. It just depends how far back in history you want to go and how much you you think that contributes responsibility from the current actors.

It’s like saying blacks in the US should stop blaming slavery for their current problems or determining who has more of a right to exist in Israel. There could be valid points or shit takes on both those issues.

People like Medea Benjamin (since we're talking about Salon in particular) write articles that are basically a carbon copy of the Kremlin's talking points.
I'm definitely not saying that Western countries are blameless, but Salon is often an outlet for well-meaning idiots who will always blame NATO/the West/the US/the EU for everything wrong in the world and look the other way when their guys commit war crimes.

 

[Arkitect]

As am I (re the current Tory administration & government).

But - and we get this especially from the left (where I used to dwell, to be found in my younger days in the fringes and fronds of the undergrowth of thta landscape) - that politicians should only be paid "an average working salary".

I disagree.

If you want honesty in public life (judges, politicians) they must be paid enough to be independent of vested interests (and to be able to afford - financially, as well as ethicaly and politically - to face down vested interests, and represent the public good.

Therefore, if you are not to confine this - a political career, a life as a professional politician - to the already wealthy (who would simply govern in the interests of their own class, even if otherwise not especially evil, and could not envisage a world where people are not wealthy - they never meet any except servants and staff - then you must be prepared to pay for it.

Otherwise, entry to political life is confined to saints, and that is also a world I would not wish on anyone.

Well, I certainly am still Left. Not batshit crazy Corbynista Left… but my values still very much reflect my education and upbringing.

A world where politicians could conceive of the idea of an NHS. Imagine that?

Basically what you are talking about is to put it bluntly, a bribe. A bribe to keep them on the straight and narrow and out of reach of the billionaires and oligarchs.

So how much would be enough?
A £1,000,000 per year? £10,000,000? Because you will always find someone to outbid you.

Akin to the BBC paying themselves vast amounts, reasoning that's the only way of keeping the "good" people from joining Rupert Murdoch.
Well, surprise surprise, they still leave and follow the money.

The world has become high on the craze for money.

The last thing anyone needs are politicians vastly wealthy and still out of touch.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Well, I certainly am still Left. Not batshit crazy Corbynista Left… but my values still very much reflect my education and upbringing.

A world where politicians could conceive of the idea of an NHS. Imagine that?

Basically what you are talking about is to put it bluntly, a bribe. A bribe to keep them on the straight and narrow and out of reach of the billionaires and oligarchs.

So how much would be enough?
A £1,000,000 per year? £10,000,000? Because you will always find someone to outbid you.

Akin to the BBC paying themselves vast amounts, reasoning that's the only way of keeping the "good" people from joining Rupert Murdoch.
Well, surprise surprise, they still leave and follow the money.

The world has become high on the craze for money.

The last thing anyone needs are politicians vastly wealthy and still out of touch.

No, I suppose that I am talking enough for a "good middle class" (which, in the UK, means upper middle class) life.

And, yes, I'm still left (though Jeremy Corbyn, dear God, left me deeply depressed - these were the people I hung out with, all too worshipfully, in my youth) and broadly agree with you.

In fact, one of the things that Britons should bear in mind when self-flagellating is to hold to the generosity of the vision that could conceive of the NHS, and not just conceive of the NHS, but conceive of it - and implement it - in a country almost destroyed and bankrupted by war.

I will add that I suspect that this sort of comprehensive social reform would have been inconceivable without the female franchise, and the need to acknowledge their concerns through relevant public policy initiatives.

And, on links between money and power - and returning to Ukraine - the links between the Tory Party and Russian oligarchic monies really is very unsavoury.