Afghanistan (Again)

[lizkat]

This op-ed is on the money, based on a lot of the stuff I've seen pass my eyes lately.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1428928618865074181/


From the cited WaPo piece (bolding is mine):

The number of Afghanistan/Iraq hawks — the ones who brought us those twin disasters in the first place — who have been called on by major media organizations to offer their sage assessment of the current situation is truly remarkable.

Whether it’s retired generals who now earn money in the weapons industry, former officials from the Bush, Obama and Trump administrations who in many cases are directly responsible for the mistakes of the past two decades, or war enthusiast pundits with an unblemished record of wrongness, we’re now hearing from the same people who two decades ago told us how great these wars would be, then spent years telling us victory was right around the corner, and are now explaining how somebody else is to blame for Afghanistan.

If I were Biden I'd just keep on truckin'. Get the Americans and Afghans who helped us out, give any NATO allies in country a hand if they need it, since we seem to have shorted them on advance notice of details on our departure, and just leave the later historians to talk about "blame" --including blame for how the departure rolled out. And meanwhile don't forget that a majority of even Republicans wanted the USA to extricate itself after 20 years.

 

[SuperMatt]

This op-ed is on the money, based on a lot of the stuff I've seen pass my eyes lately.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1428928618865074181/


From the cited WaPo piece (bolding is mine):



If I were Biden I'd just keep on truckin'. Get the Americans and Afghans who helped us out, give any NATO allies in country a hand if they need it, since we seem to have shorted them on advance notice of details on our departure, and just leave the later historians to talk about "blame" --including blame for how the departure rolled out. And meanwhile don't forget that a majority of even Republicans wanted the USA to extricate itself after 20 years.

Wow, this piece feels really spot-on. All the news networks seem to be doing the same thing. They get all these Afghanistan “experts” who are people who worked to facilitate the occupation for the last 20 years.

I wish the Taliban was not back in power. I am concerned at how they will treat the Afghan people (especially women). But to act like this is on Biden instead of the warmongers who got us in there in the first place is upsetting. Here’s another take from a Military member who killed hundreds during the war… he is glad it’s over.

https://wapo.st/383a4lh

 

[Alli]

But to act like this is on Biden instead of the warmongers who got us in there in the first place is upsetting.

Especially since Biden has been in office of some sort since it started and has always been vocally against it.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

This op-ed is on the money, based on a lot of the stuff I've seen pass my eyes lately.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1428928618865074181/

"Conventional wisdom". You mean like the only solution to problems associated with economic hardship and vast inequality is more police? I don't know if it's the exact same people but they probably get together on the weekends to party. Who doesn't enjoy a good gaslighting drinking game.

 

[Herdfan]

But to act like this is on Biden instead of the warmongers who got us in there in the first place is upsetting.

I think the blame needs to be split. How we got there is not on Biden, except for his Yay vote to go in the first place. There are lots of people to blame for being there. Nor is he to blame for the Taliban being back in power. That was going to happen when we left no matter who was President

But the actual mess of leaving, that is 100% on him. He said Trump started and he had no choice. Really? He spend the first few days of his Administration undoing things that Trump did and he couldn't undo this? BS! The overall plan was faulty and that is on his watch. And leaving billions in military hardware basically outfitting the Taliban with more military equipment than many countries, that is unacceptable.

 

[SuperMatt]

I think the blame needs to be split. How we got there is not on Biden, except for his Yay vote to go in the first place. There are lots of people to blame for being there. Nor is he to blame for the Taliban being back in power. That was going to happen when we left no matter who was President

But the actual mess of leaving, that is 100% on him. He said Trump started and he had no choice. Really? He spend the first few days of his Administration undoing things that Trump did and he couldn't undo this? BS! The overall plan was faulty and that is on his watch. And leaving billions in military hardware basically outfitting the Taliban with more military equipment than many countries, that is unacceptable.

I disagree. Things had gotten worse in the past few years, and once the Trump administration signed a peace deal with the Taliban and intentionally excluded the Afghan government, things were set into motion that couldn’t be stopped. And Afghan soldiers walking away from their posts and letting the Taliban take power without a fight is not 100% on Biden. There’s plenty of blame to put on him and others, but to put this outcome on Biden 100% is nonsensical.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I think the blame needs to be split. How we got there is not on Biden, except for his Yay vote to go in the first place. There are lots of people to blame for being there. Nor is he to blame for the Taliban being back in power. That was going to happen when we left no matter who was President

But the actual mess of leaving, that is 100% on him. He said Trump started and he had no choice. Really? He spend the first few days of his Administration undoing things that Trump did and he couldn't undo this? BS! The overall plan was faulty and that is on his watch. And leaving billions in military hardware basically outfitting the Taliban with more military equipment than many countries, that is unacceptable.

I still say there was a heavy element of "Totally ready, Mr. President." coming from the military and Biden not responding back with a "how about this?" checklist. So whose more to blame, the military for not covering all bases in preperation or Biden for believing them and not micromanaging it?

Not saying we couldn't have done a better job, but I think putting all the blame entirely on Biden is extremely disingenuous, but I also think in general giving the US President all the blame or praise for anything is disingenuous. It's like saying Steve Jobs personally assembled all the first iPhones.

 

[JayMysteri0]

I still say there was a heavy element of "Totally ready, Mr. President." coming from the military and Biden not responding back with a "how about this?" checklist. So whose more to blame, the military for not covering all bases in preperation or Biden for believing them and not micromanaging it?

Not saying we couldn't have done a better job, but I think putting all the blame entirely on Biden is extremely disingenuous, but I also think in general giving the US President all the blame or praise for anything is disingenuous. It's like saying Steve Jobs personally assembled all the first iPhones.

On the flip side of that, we used to take pride in a president who when not taking praise, could say 'the buck stops here' when failure occurs. Until of course the last president who only believed in all praise / no blame for himself.


In other "news", I guess it's been a slow "news" day for Faux...

Fox News host Rachel Campos-Duffy says Jill Biden ‘failed the country’ by allowing her husband President Joe Biden to run for office

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1429589031734685700/

Fox News' Rachel Campos-Duffy Tries to Blame Jill Biden for Afghanistan Crisis (Video)

"I think she failed the country as well," the host said

www.thewrap.com

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1429556451387838466/

 

[lizkat]

In other "news", I guess it's been a slow "news" day for Faux...

Fox News host Rachel Campos-Duffy says Jill Biden ‘failed the country’ by allowing her husband President Joe Biden to run for office

Oh for God's sake. The fox crew running on fumes now, are they?

Why not blame everything on the serpent in the garden of Eden while they're at it.

[oh, they left their company-supplied Bibles home in the rush to make it to their interviews of neocons about how Biden has f'd up)[/QUOTE]

 

[hulugu]

No matter how bad things are, this was the inevitable end. And there’s no way to convince me dipshit - a goofy reality show star - would have done any better by governing via tweet.

Trump would have added elements of inanity and chaos to this mix. And, the whole SIV effort would have collapsed under Miller.

Having professionals, even if they've made major strategic mistakes in my view, has been beneficial. Trump had the same bad intelligence, and the same generals in charge, so the idea that Trump would have done better in any way shape or form is just fucking wrong.

 

[GermanSuplex]

Trump would have added elements of inanity and chaos to this mix. And, the whole SIV effort would have collapsed under Miller.

Having professionals, even if they've made major strategic mistakes in my view, has been beneficial. Trump had the same bad intelligence, and the same generals in charge, so the idea that Trump would have done better in any way shape or form is just fucking wrong.

As I’ve always said, history will put this into perspective. In another five years - maybe ten years or maybe even six months from now - people are going to say “we should have done this sooner”. Many of the experts have said this was the inevitable end, not just usual cable news talking heads. There was not going to be any smooth retreat, and the issue is with believing that.

The problem for Biden is that, well, he’s the one who finally pulled the trigger. I’ve listened to countless hours about how Biden could have safely evacuated more Americans sooner, or how it was irresponsible, but again… was there ever going to be a good way to end this?

As you mentioned, Biden and his team of professionals are handling the inevitable fallout well (this far, at least). If he can keep up the evacuations and the fallout handled well, I can see this being one of those things that is viewed in a much different light in the near future.

I don’t see this giving Republicans much ammunition. They’ve talked about this for years - both sides have - and it’s going to be argued Trump made an already overwhelming task that much more difficult.

Like you, I feel a lot better just listening to Biden and his staff talk… competency isn’t everything, but the lack of it sure is, and with the fallout being what it is, I’m sure glad the last guy isn’t directing things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[lizkat]

Trump would have added elements of inanity and chaos to this mix. And, the whole SIV effort would have collapsed under Miller.

Having professionals, even if they've made major strategic mistakes in my view, has been beneficial. Trump had the same bad intelligence, and the same generals in charge, so the idea that Trump would have done better in any way shape or form is just fucking wrong.

All this time we've wanted out but kept fearing the price would be too ugly. Untenable, as postponement only added to the tab.

At least Biden had the guts to say ok it was inevitable (after Trump greenlit the Taliban talks), so pull the plug, let it rip, debug it as it unwinds.

Whole thing reminds me of a few different Dana Gioia poems. This one, for instance.

​

​

Nosferatu's Serenade​

​

-- by Dana Gioia, in his collection 99 Poems​

​

I am the image that darkens your glass,​

The shadow that falls wherever you pass.​

I am the dream you cannot forget,​

The face you remember without having met.​

​

I am the truth that must not be spoken,​

The midnight vow that cannot be broken.​

I am the bell that tolls out the hours.​

I am the fire that warms and devours.​

​

I am the hunger that you have denied,​

The ache of desire piercing your side.​

I am the sin you have never confessed,​

The forbidden hand caressing your breast.​

​

You’ve heard me inside you speak in your dreams,​

Sigh in the ocean, whisper in streams.​

I am the future you crave and you fear.​

You know what I bring. Now I am here.​

​

(From Nosferatu)​

 

[User.168]

.

 

[Herdfan]

The US tends to leave that stuff behind, because of the costs to get it back home. This is how ISIS became so well equipped, because the US left a lot of cool stuff behind in Iraq.

Then blow it up.

 

[Member 216]

The US tends to leave that stuff behind, because of the costs to get it back home. This is how ISIS became so well equipped, because the US left a lot of cool stuff behind in Iraq.

I realise time may be a factor in some cases, but do they not attempt to render these weapons and vehicles non operational and non repairable before abandoning them?

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I served in Afghanistan as a US Marine, twice. Here’s the truth in two sentences

This veteran and Missouri U.S. Senate candidate saw what the Afghan National Security Forces really were. | Opinion

news.yahoo.com

One: For 20 years, politicians, elites and D.C. military leaders lied to us about Afghanistan.

Two: What happened last week was inevitable, and anyone saying differently is still lying to you.

 

[lizkat]

I served in Afghanistan as a US Marine, twice. Here’s the truth in two sentences

This veteran and Missouri U.S. Senate candidate saw what the Afghan National Security Forces really were. | Opinion

news.yahoo.com

One: For 20 years, politicians, elites and D.C. military leaders lied to us about Afghanistan.

Two: What happened last week was inevitable, and anyone saying differently is still lying to you.

He nailed it.

 

[SuperMatt]

I realise time may be a factor in some cases, but do they not attempt to render these weapons and vehicles non operational and non repairable before abandoning them?

Then blow it up.

I am not following this. Was the idea that we already saw the future that the Afghan security forces would just let the Taliban waltz in? Because that’s the only scenario I can imagine where this makes even the slightest bit of sense.

And in that case how would that work? Take out all the equipment and leave them defenseless?

The plan was that the Afghan forces would use the equipment to defend the official government. Once that collapsed, how do you think “blow it up” is even remotely a way to get rid of equipment spread all over the country? So bomb everything to oblivion? Weren’t we supposed to get out of there?

You cannot take all the equipment away and expect the Afghan army to defend themselves. If they started carting all the equipment out a year before the pullout, the Taliban would have immediately attacked and you would probably only get the first couple shipments out of there before it was too late.

I cannot believe people gave thumbs-up to a “solution” as ignorant as “blow it up.”

 

[Herdfan]

I am not following this. Was the idea that we already saw the future that the Afghan security forces would just let the Taliban waltz in? Because that’s the only scenario I can imagine where this makes even the slightest bit of sense.

And in that case how would that work? Take out all the equipment and leave them defenseless?

The plan was that the Afghan forces would use the equipment to defend the official government. Once that collapsed, how do you think “blow it up” is even remotely a way to get rid of equipment spread all over the country? So bomb everything to oblivion? Weren’t we supposed to get out of there?

You cannot take all the equipment away and expect the Afghan army to defend themselves. If they started carting all the equipment out a year before the pullout, the Taliban would have immediately attacked and you would probably only get the first couple shipments out of there before it was too late.

I cannot believe people gave thumbs-up to a “solution” as ignorant as “blow it up.”

I guess you didn't see the pics of all the vehicle and armament at the Air Base. That the Taliban now controls. Send a couple of drones to blow it up.

 

[Pumbaa]

I guess you didn't see the pics of all the vehicle and armament at the Air Base. That the Taliban now controls. Send a couple of drones to blow it up.

Send a couple of drones to blow up an air base under Taliban control? Sounds kinda like a declaration of war.